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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Anny and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now today we

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Speaker 1: actually have some good news. Yeah, good news. Hey you

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Speaker 1: I feel like on the show so often we're talking

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Speaker 1: about complete bummers. Yes, this is true. Um, this episode

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Speaker 1: will have some bumbers, but it's not a complete bummer

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Speaker 1: and has a bit of a happy ending, which is

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Speaker 1: that Ireland last month voted to end the country's ban

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Speaker 1: on abortion. Yes, that is very good news and it's

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Speaker 1: a very long time coming. And today we just wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the history of Ireland's

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Speaker 1: abortion walls and how we got to where we are today. Yes,

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Speaker 1: because terminating at pregnancy has been a crime in Ireland

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Speaker 1: since eighteen sixty one, because the debate really got started

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, when abortion laws and attitudes were

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Speaker 1: changing in many places. Exactly, the UK legalized abortion up

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Speaker 1: to twenty eight weeks in nineteen sixty seven, and here

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Speaker 1: in the United States, the Supreme Court essentially legalized abortion

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three with Brow v. Wade. So basically,

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Speaker 1: conservative politicians and the Catholic Church were pretty alarmed by

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Speaker 1: this trend and they wanted to preempt any attempt to

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Speaker 1: loosen the Irish band on abortion, so they launched an

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Speaker 1: active campaign to introduce a constitutional amendment, which ended with

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Speaker 1: a referendum in nineteen eighty three. Sixty of Irish voters

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Speaker 1: voted for the Eighth Amendment, which basically banned abortion right.

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Speaker 1: The Eighth Amendment says the State acknowledges the right to

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Speaker 1: life of the unborn, and, with due regard to the

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Speaker 1: equal right to the life of the mother, guarantees and

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Speaker 1: its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable by

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Speaker 1: its laws, to defend and vindicate that right. This law

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Speaker 1: basically meant that you couldn't get an abortion in Ireland,

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Speaker 1: even in cases of vapor incest, and in some cases

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Speaker 1: even if it meant that you would die. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was fairly strict. One of the big flashpoints on the

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Speaker 1: issue in Ireland happened in Nino with the case of

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Speaker 1: x X was an anonymous fourteen year old girl who,

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Speaker 1: after being raped, became pregnant. Her family planned to have

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Speaker 1: her travels with the UK to get an abortion, only

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Speaker 1: to find out that doing so was against the law.

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Speaker 1: Ireland's Attorney General blocked her from traveling abroad through an injunction. Basically,

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Speaker 1: this girl was super depressed, he became suicidal and her

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Speaker 1: case really kind of became a flashpoint. It went to

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, which lifted the injunction and ruled that

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Speaker 1: abortions could take place if there was a real risk

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Speaker 1: to the life of the mother, including from suicide. But

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Speaker 1: since then, several attempts to remove suicide as grounds for abortion,

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Speaker 1: including a referendum in two thousand two, have failed, but

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Speaker 1: that Supreme Court's ruling did not make it into legislation

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Speaker 1: for another twenty years. Wow the this case led to

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Speaker 1: some changes. The government had a referendum on three questions,

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Speaker 1: whether suicide should be removed as grounds for abortion, whether

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Speaker 1: I wish people how to right to travel for abortion care,

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Speaker 1: and whether information about abortion should be available in Ireland.

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Speaker 1: Irish voted to keep suicide as a legitimate reason that

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Speaker 1: abortion be permitted, and voted for the right to travel

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Speaker 1: and information. Two referendums in November of made it legal

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Speaker 1: to travel abroad to seek abortions six or two four

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Speaker 1: percent of voters voted for this, and to share information

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Speaker 1: about foreign abortion services within Ireland. Nine women and girls

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Speaker 1: leave Ireland every day to get abortion services. Well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: on the one hand, it's good that people had the

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Speaker 1: ability to go, you know, to the UK to get

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Speaker 1: an abortion that they needed it, but that's not accessible

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Speaker 1: and it's expensive and not everybody can make that journey.

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Speaker 1: And so if the only way that you have to

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Speaker 1: get an abortion in Ireland is to spend a lot

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Speaker 1: of money to go to a different place to get it,

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Speaker 1: it's not really accessible. And if your life depends on

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Speaker 1: getting an abortion, and that really could be a death sentence. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: More than one seventy thousand women and girls have traveled

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Speaker 1: to another country for an abortion since nine eight, and

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Speaker 1: the vast majority went to Britain, while a smaller number

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Speaker 1: went to the Netherlands. Getting the boat is expensive and

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Speaker 1: laborious and yeah, inaccessible. The Irish have all kinds of

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Speaker 1: euphemisms for leaving the country to get an abortion, like

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Speaker 1: getting the boat or simply traveling, but it definitely hits

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Speaker 1: lower income people harder. I mean, that's a very expensive, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think it's important to point out that we're

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Speaker 1: not just talking about Ireland. Here in the United States,

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Speaker 1: there are places where you have to make a very

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Speaker 1: expensive and very laborious journey to get an abortion. A

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Speaker 1: pregnant person who lives in rapid city South Dakota, for instance,

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Speaker 1: would have to drive three hundred and eighteen miles to

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Speaker 1: reach Billings, Montana to get an abortion. That was that's

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Speaker 1: the nearest facility that provides abortion services. And so we

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Speaker 1: were talking about it in regards to Ireland. Here in

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Speaker 1: the United States, there are places where it is also

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Speaker 1: very inaccessible, and it is also a very expensive journey,

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Speaker 1: particularly for those who don't have access or are low

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Speaker 1: income or otherwise marginalized. Absolutely, and we also have some

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Speaker 1: of you may have seen in the news because it's

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Speaker 1: kind of been making the news a lot lately, that

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Speaker 1: we have hospitals that are run by Catholicism, like Catholic hospitals,

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Speaker 1: but they're not outwardly there's sort of no signage to

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Speaker 1: saying that. And and a lot of times, if you're

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Speaker 1: an emergency situation, and here we're talking particularly about if

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Speaker 1: you're pregnant and you're taken in an ambulance of the

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Speaker 1: nearest hospital, you might not know, and then you get

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Speaker 1: there and they will not allow you have an abortion

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Speaker 1: if you're like having a miscarriage or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's led to I think some serious health

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Speaker 1: problems and I believe death as well. Yeah. According to

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Speaker 1: view Wire new reporting that just came out literally an

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Speaker 1: hour ago, about one in six women in the United

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Speaker 1: States name a Catholic facility as they'll go to hospital

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Speaker 1: for reproductive health air. But more than a third of

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Speaker 1: these women are unaware that their hospital is Catholic, according

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Speaker 1: to a survey reviewing an information gap about Catholic hospitals.

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Speaker 1: And so, you're right. So I want to make sure

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Speaker 1: it's clear that we all have a long way to

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Speaker 1: go on this issue that Ireland, the United States, this

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Speaker 1: is stuff that's happening that we're all sort of dealing with.

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Speaker 1: We have to get better because people's lives are on

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Speaker 1: the line. Yeah. In British Vogue, Irish journalist Lynn e'nwright

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Speaker 1: imagined what could have happened to her if her unwanted

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Speaker 1: pregnancy had happened back home in Ireland instead of in London.

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Speaker 1: She writes, perhaps I would have been one of them,

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Speaker 1: making the same surreptitious arrangements, booking days off work, telling

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Speaker 1: the necessary FIBs to employers and family, boarding a cheap

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Speaker 1: Ryan Air flight at six am as if going on holiday,

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Speaker 1: I would find the hundreds of pounds necessary to pay

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Speaker 1: a private clinic in Liverpool or London later my abortion fund.

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Speaker 1: Not stretching to a hotel room, I would bleed and

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Speaker 1: sweat and a cheap hostel many many miles from home.

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Speaker 1: And I think she really captures what this situation looked

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Speaker 1: like for so many Irish women. And those are the

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Speaker 1: lucky ones, the ones who could afford to make that journey. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's already a difficult situation to be in, and

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Speaker 1: then to be in the hotel, probably by yourself after

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Speaker 1: in pain, miserable just expounds on how difficult it already is.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't need to be that miserable. It shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: that miserable. If there are things we can do to improve,

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Speaker 1: it should If you listen to the episode of the

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Speaker 1: Unladylike podcast, their first episode is about paying for abortions

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Speaker 1: and one of the women they talked to in the episode,

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Speaker 1: she basically had like the nicest abortion, you know ever

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Speaker 1: was in a private facility and you know, there was

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Speaker 1: no protesters outside. It was a very you know, she

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Speaker 1: went into a pretty nondescript office and for every smooth

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Speaker 1: abortion out there that goes well, and you know, it's

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Speaker 1: just go to a place and you have an appointment

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Speaker 1: and it's fine, it's done, you pay for it done.

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Speaker 1: There are people out there who have the worst experience

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Speaker 1: where it's you know, you have to scramble to find

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Speaker 1: money and they you know, it's a medical procedure and

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Speaker 1: it should be a smooth experience for everyone. Everyone deserves

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Speaker 1: to have their medical carapy something that is smooth, because

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Speaker 1: if you need medical services, are already probably stressed out enough.

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Speaker 1: And just like any other medical service, if it's within

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Speaker 1: our power to make it smooth for the people who

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Speaker 1: are undergoing it, we should be. It should be smooth

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Speaker 1: for everybody. Absolutely, Like I remember listening to that on

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Speaker 1: Lady Like episode and thinking, like, anybody who has to

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Speaker 1: get an abortion, I want them to have experience like

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Speaker 1: that where it's not terrible. Yeah. And going back to

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, they have a lot to do with this,

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Speaker 1: this situation in Ireland from rewire, the Catholic Church has

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Speaker 1: been deeply intertwined with the Irish state from its founding,

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Speaker 1: when in separating from the English colonial control, Ireland sought

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Speaker 1: a national identity that was different celebrating the Catholicism that

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Speaker 1: had been marginalized under British rule. Today, though its influence

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Speaker 1: has diminished, it controls primary schools and hospitals across the country,

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Speaker 1: and though it has played a smaller rule in the

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Speaker 1: repeal campaign. Healy wrote, behind the scenes, the Church are

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Speaker 1: back in the know in a major way. But the

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Speaker 1: church's reputation was damaged by revelations around the Magdalene Laundries,

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Speaker 1: state funded church run institutions where girls were locked away

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Speaker 1: and put to unpaid labor for a range of sins

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Speaker 1: that often include sexual behavior and unwed pregnancy. That reputation

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Speaker 1: was further hurt by the discovery in seventeen of a

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Speaker 1: mass grave of children at the Mother and Baby Home

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Speaker 1: at Tuam, where unwed mothers had given birth. Yikes, that's horrifying.

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Speaker 1: But I think it also really goes to underscore how

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Speaker 1: tight of a hold the Catholic Church has on Ireland culturally,

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Speaker 1: politically all of that. Those sentiments run so deep that

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Speaker 1: it really seems to dictate how folks feel about this

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Speaker 1: issue for a very long time. Yeah, this about brings

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Speaker 1: us to another flashpoint in this debate. But first we're

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Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break for word from our sponsor

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Speaker 1: m HM, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve we come to another kind of

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Speaker 1: touched on a big event in this debate, and that

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Speaker 1: is with m Savitza Pravine Hellapettavar. Savita was a dentist

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Speaker 1: who was born in India and she moved to Ireland

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight and she settled in Galaway

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Speaker 1: with her husband Pravine. On October twenty one, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and twelve, she went to University Hospital, Galway after complaining

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Speaker 1: of back pain and eventually suffered a miscarriage at seventeen weeks.

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Speaker 1: Her miscarriage went on for days, but saying they were

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Speaker 1: bound by Irish abortion law, hospital staff would not provide

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Speaker 1: any medical aid to speed up the end of her pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: A midwife manager told her she couldn't terminate her pregnancy

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Speaker 1: quote because Ireland it's a Catholic country. Yeah, and according

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Speaker 1: to the coroner, the words quote went around the world

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Speaker 1: and I would agree with that. Yeah. This sort of

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Speaker 1: became a galvanizing moment, particularly that comment that the midwife

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Speaker 1: manager made that Ireland is a Catholic country. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: they've identified the woman who said that, and she admits

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Speaker 1: saying it, and she feels bad about saying it. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think that she knew that her comments would

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Speaker 1: become this flashpoint for getting people so angry and so

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Speaker 1: upset about this issue that it would ultimately spark this

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Speaker 1: kind of massive change. Oh yeah, I would bet she

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Speaker 1: was quite surprised that it took off. I'm sure to

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Speaker 1: her it was probably like just fat kind of yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what she says. They interviewed her and she said

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Speaker 1: that she was just trying to explain, you know, the

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Speaker 1: why of this abortion law, and she she's right that

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Speaker 1: that was that was the case. But using that as

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Speaker 1: a basically as the explanation for why someone is going

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Speaker 1: to die is just so deeply, deeply, deeply upsetting. Another

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Speaker 1: thing to note about sevida situation is that doctors told

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Speaker 1: her that her miss carriage was inevitable and she was

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Speaker 1: still denied an abortion. There was no saving this pregnancy,

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Speaker 1: she was going to lose that pregnancy irregardless, and they

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Speaker 1: still let her die. Yeah, which I find, I mean

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Speaker 1: hard for me to think of a way to defend that,

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Speaker 1: and especially like well, we're just a Catholic country. Like

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Speaker 1: I suppose that goes to show how acceptable we find

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Speaker 1: or at least in some religions, were able to justify

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Speaker 1: the death of the woman rather than provide them this

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Speaker 1: service that has been deemed immoral. Right. And she died

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Speaker 1: a painful, agonizing, long and probably emotionally, I mean she

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Speaker 1: she died at really really unimaginably cruel death on all fronts, emotionally, mentally, physically,

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Speaker 1: on all fronts. Her death was unimaginably cruel. Yeah. A

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Speaker 1: report by the Health Service Executive found later that there

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Speaker 1: had been quote an over emphasis by hospital staff on

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Speaker 1: the welfare of Mrs Hall, a pan of ours unviable fetus,

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Speaker 1: and under emphasis on her deteriorating health. And they could

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Speaker 1: it sounds like they could have saved her. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: if you know, if the miscarriage is inevitable, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Right? Like, like, who are you helping? No one?

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Speaker 1: You're killing someone. You're killing someone, yeah, and you're making

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Speaker 1: them die a agonizing death. Like it just just so awful,

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Speaker 1: It just just so awful. As awful as this was,

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Speaker 1: her death became a symbol, sparking protests and vigils. All

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Speaker 1: across Ireland. Campaigners began urging that folks remember Sevita and

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Speaker 1: calling for change to ireland strict abortion laws. Here's Ruth Coppinger,

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Speaker 1: an Irish Solidarity People before Profit politicians, speaking at a

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Speaker 1: rally to remember Sevita fund. We're here today in huge

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Speaker 1: norms to show octionate set our solidarity with the family

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Speaker 1: on the Friends Observita and we want to send a

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Speaker 1: message to her family if you have huge support here

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Speaker 1: in Ireland, absolutely massive support, and that pretty much brings

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Speaker 1: us to where we're at today. You know, her tragic

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Speaker 1: death was really this flashpoint for enough outrage and anger

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Speaker 1: and justified rage to coalesce to get someplace on this issue.

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Speaker 1: I think so many women saw this story and thought

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Speaker 1: that could be me, that could be my kid. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to live in in Ireland where that happens

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Speaker 1: for no reason. Yeah, and so people came together and

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Speaker 1: they made a change and we're gonna talk more about that,

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Speaker 1: but first we're gonna take one more quick break for

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Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: last month Ireland held a vote to repeal the Eighth Amendment.

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Speaker 1: Thousands of Irish immigrants flew from all over the world

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Speaker 1: back to Ireland to vote, including a few smimthy listeners.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Shout out to Instagram user j O Grady

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Speaker 1: who told me that she came all the way from

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Speaker 1: Boston to Ireland to vote yes, so you go. Good

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Speaker 1: for you. And this is the stuff that like warms

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Speaker 1: my organizer heart. People getting together and saying, hey, all

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Speaker 1: of y'all young people who left Ireland for other places,

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Speaker 1: we need you. If you can do it, come back vote,

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Speaker 1: help be the force that pushes the needle on this issue. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And they shared their journeys using the hashtag home to Vote,

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Speaker 1: and if you scrolled that hashtag, there were so many

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Speaker 1: brilliant story rays of people traveling from far and wide

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Speaker 1: about why they were doing it. Some people said things

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Speaker 1: like oh, I didn't want this could be me. Some

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Speaker 1: people expressed interest in moving back to Ireland one day,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't want to live in Ireland where basic

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Speaker 1: healthcare was just this inaccessible, and really it was. It

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Speaker 1: was quite a beautiful sort of touching thing. Here's the

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Speaker 1: London Irish Abortion Rights campaign video urging young Irish people

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Speaker 1: to come home to vote. If you're an Irish citizen

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Speaker 1: and I've lived in Ireland in the past eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: Wherever you are in the world right now, you may

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Speaker 1: be eligible to vote. Three years ago, young Irish people

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Speaker 1: traveled from all over the planet to make Ireland a

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Speaker 1: more equal place. We need you again. On the twenty May.

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Speaker 1: We're getting a once in a generation chance to make

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Speaker 1: Ireland a safer, fair place for women. Let's do it together.

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Speaker 1: Come home to vote yes to repeal the Eighth Amendment.

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Speaker 1: Together Together, Together together, Kayla, together together together. Wonderful. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it is. I think it's the organizer in me

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Speaker 1: a pod to every one of those those Irish folks

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Speaker 1: who came back to vote, because you know that's no

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Speaker 1: easy feat, you know, flying from Boston, l A, wherever

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Speaker 1: to Ireland to vote, Like not everybody can do that,

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Speaker 1: but I think it again, it goes to underscore this

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Speaker 1: idea that if you have the ability, you have the money,

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Speaker 1: you can get the time off whatever to make that

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Speaker 1: trip you It's important. And I remember seeing someone sign

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Speaker 1: when I was looking through the hashtag. The sign said,

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Speaker 1: I'm making this journey so the women who can't don't

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Speaker 1: have to, so they don't have to get on that

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Speaker 1: boat and they don't have to scrape together that money

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Speaker 1: or stay in that hostels like I can. I can

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Speaker 1: make this journey so that other women don't have to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and um some of the women are um assuming women.

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Speaker 1: Some of the people returned home their flights paid for

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Speaker 1: by generous strangers in the Abroad for Yes Facebook group

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Speaker 1: with over three thousand, eight hundred members willing to sponsor flights,

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Speaker 1: which is also very lovely. It is lovely. You know

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Speaker 1: that expression. Feminism isn't something you are, it's something that

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Speaker 1: you do. That's that's what this is to me in

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Speaker 1: a kind of way. It's putting your money where your

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Speaker 1: mouth is and doing that thing. Whether it's paying for

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Speaker 1: somebody else's flight because you can't vote in Ireland, or

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Speaker 1: it's scraping together the money and taking the time off

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Speaker 1: work and going home to Ireland to vote. I think

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just really powerful. It's really something. Sevida's

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Speaker 1: parents made a video before the vote urging Irish voters

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Speaker 1: to vote yes and remember his daughter, and after the vote,

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Speaker 1: he thanked the people of Ireland for really coming out

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Speaker 1: in droves and supporting the tragic loss of his daughter,

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Speaker 1: and I'm keeping that in mind at the polls, He

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Speaker 1: said he was quote very happy at the result of

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Speaker 1: Ireland's referendum. We've got justice for Sevida and what happened

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Speaker 1: to her will not happen to any other family. Right now,

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Speaker 1: I have no words to express my gratitude to the

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Speaker 1: people of Ireland at this historic moment. In many Irish

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Speaker 1: people similarly went home to vote to pass marriage equality,

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Speaker 1: and you know, while pushes like home to vote and

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Speaker 1: urging folks to come home and make their voices heard

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Speaker 1: if they can are obviously awesome. Connor O'Neil, the co

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Speaker 1: founder of We're Coming Back, a campaign for emigrant voting rights,

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Speaker 1: points out at The Irish Times that Irish citizens shouldn't

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Speaker 1: actually have to do this. They shouldn't have to go

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Speaker 1: all the way back to Ireland just to make their

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Speaker 1: voice heard. He writes, citizens shouldn't need to do this.

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Speaker 1: It's expensive, exclusionary, and for every incredible home to voter,

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Speaker 1: someone couldn't travel. Most countries recognize this, but Ireland remains

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Speaker 1: one of the few democracies with no facility for overseas voting.

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Speaker 1: A legacy of our high rates of emigration and the

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Speaker 1: failure of successive governments to put an effective system in place.

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Speaker 1: Our rules are some of the most restrictive in the world.

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Speaker 1: No postal facility exists, and under the Electoral Acts, returning

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Speaker 1: to vote beyond a meager eighteen months abroad is a

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Speaker 1: crime punishable up to two years imprisonment. Many voters vote

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Speaker 1: have known this on a three year working visa. Surely

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Speaker 1: the ballots waiting at home don't come with criminal charges.

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Speaker 1: Given the landslide result, even the wildest estimates of how

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Speaker 1: many returned couldn't have impacted the outcome. But the absurd

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Speaker 1: contradiction remains. We cheer these voters home, but our laws

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Speaker 1: treat them as criminals. Yeah, it should not be that

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Speaker 1: difficult as a citizen to vote in your countries and

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Speaker 1: things impacting your country in a country that you have

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Speaker 1: citizenship in. But nonetheless yea. The campaign was successful. Rewire

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Speaker 1: News quotes one longtime campaigner, zy Kankazi. One of the

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Speaker 1: things in this campaign is that women have talked about that.

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Speaker 1: Women have kept that silent for years and have talked

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Speaker 1: to their friends and family about that and about why

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Speaker 1: the law needs to change. This whole silent underground campaign

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Speaker 1: that is going on with women who are talking about

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Speaker 1: their personal experiences under the law, and not just of abortion,

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Speaker 1: because the Eighth Amendment also affects the care of women

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Speaker 1: in every pregnancy. Absolutely correct. Something I love about Izzy

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Speaker 1: Kamakazis comments here is that they really help us understand

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Speaker 1: that the Eighth Amendment was obviously about access to abortion.

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Speaker 1: But also even if you are someone who is carrying

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Speaker 1: a pregnancy to term, you are so impacted by this legislation.

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Speaker 1: It's not just for people who are seeking abortions or

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Speaker 1: to terminate a pregnancy. Take for instance, the case of

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Speaker 1: Mother B. In Mother B wanted to give Borth vaginally,

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Speaker 1: but she was shocked when the Health Service Executive or

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Speaker 1: the h s E, applied to the High Court to

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Speaker 1: force her to have a cesarean section against her will

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Speaker 1: to vindicate the right to life of her unborn child.

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Speaker 1: They sought permission to keep Mother B from leaving the

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Speaker 1: hospital and to enlist police to arrest her if she did.

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Speaker 1: The fetus was given its own attorney. There was a

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Speaker 1: court injunction and ultimately the court allowed her to give

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Speaker 1: Worth vaginally. But this just goes to show this legislation

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Speaker 1: is obviously about abortion. But anybody who wants their reproductive

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Speaker 1: rights respected, whether it is the right to carry your

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Speaker 1: pregnancy to term the way that you want or the

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Speaker 1: right to not do so, and anybody along that spectrum

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Speaker 1: has a stake in this conversation. Absolutely, and ultimately, the

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Speaker 1: yes vote did win violence side of sixty six point

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Speaker 1: four percent of voters voting to repeal the amendments. So

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Speaker 1: it looks like a lot of women or I keep

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Speaker 1: the saving women, but this is an issue that impacts everybody. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I mean women aren't the only folks who get pregnant.

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Speaker 1: We need need to say that, you know, anybody with

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Speaker 1: a uterus, anybody with a stake and health care and

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Speaker 1: reproductive rights, they understood what you were saying, Bridget that

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Speaker 1: it is not just a portion. This s impacts so much,

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Speaker 1: so much more. And I'm I'm very very happy that

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Speaker 1: it was the eighth was repealed. I am too. So

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Speaker 1: you might be asking what happens now, Well, in the

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Speaker 1: short term, nothing, Nothing will change immediately, according to Wendy Lyon,

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Speaker 1: a lawyer and pro choice organizer based in Ireland, because

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Speaker 1: the anti choice law is still on the books, were

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Speaker 1: pretty much guaranteed that there's gonna be some attempt to

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Speaker 1: challenge it. They've done this with pretty much every referendum

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Speaker 1: that has advocated a liberal agenda. As she says, they

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Speaker 1: failed every time, but they will try it again. And

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Speaker 1: Dublin City Councilor Ellis Ryan points out that another important

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Speaker 1: aspect of this conversation going forward is how abortion access

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Speaker 1: will be handled in Ireland. It is not enough for

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Speaker 1: it to be legal. It also has to be accessible

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Speaker 1: and really the only way that you can do that

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Speaker 1: is to a public health service. That is going to

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Speaker 1: be the next battle for socialist campaigners pro choice campaigners

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Speaker 1: is how can we ensure that this is not yet

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Speaker 1: another service that is outsourced to a private company that

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Speaker 1: doesn't have women's best interests at heart. And I think

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Speaker 1: that really is so true that it's not enough for

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Speaker 1: this to just be legal. It has to also be accessible,

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Speaker 1: right otherwise what's the point? Yeah, exactly, And going back

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Speaker 1: to the US for a second. Abortion access here remains

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Speaker 1: under an attack and campaigners are looking to Ireland as

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Speaker 1: a beacon of light. In Rhode Island, campaigners are pushing

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Speaker 1: for the Reprojective Healthcare Act the r h A and

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Speaker 1: pointing to Ireland's recent landslide vote to legalize abortion care

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Speaker 1: as an example to follow. So this is having an

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Speaker 1: impact outside of Ireland as well. That's always kind of

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Speaker 1: a like kind of comforting reminder. Yeah, we're this is global,

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Speaker 1: We're all in this together. This is this is a

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Speaker 1: global fight. In Rhode Island right now, if Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade were overturned, which I know that to some of

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Speaker 1: you that might sound unthinkable, but anti choice politicians are

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Speaker 1: waging attacks on it every day in so many different ways.

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Speaker 1: If it were overturned in Rhode Island, abortion will be

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Speaker 1: illegal unless the Reproductive Healthcare Act, which right now is

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Speaker 1: stuck in committee, was passed. The pro choice sgislation would

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00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: codify Roe v. Wade protections into state law. And I

430
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: think why Rhode Island is looking to Ireland, It's because

431
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: Rhode Island is the most heavily Catholic state in the

432
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: United States, and so a lot of folks similarly to

433
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: Ireland might think, oh, our state is just so culturally

434
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: and politically gripped by the Catholic Church that this thing

435
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: will never pass. But Ireland shows us that that's not

436
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: necessarily true. Right. I did not know that about Rhode Islands. Yeah.

437
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: Hillary Levy Friedman, president of the Rhode Island chapter of

438
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: the National Organization for Women, that the state is looking

439
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: towards Ireland as a model that heavily Catholic cultures can

440
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: still move the needle on reproductive rights. Quote. One of

441
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: the biggest issues raised in opposition to the Reproductive Health

442
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: Care Act in Rhode Island is that this is the

443
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: most Catholic state in America. That said, Ireland, a nation

444
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: founded on the basis of Catholicism, has just made abortion legal,

445
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: so clearly it can be done. It can be done.

446
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: It was done. Yes, y'all did it. And again it

447
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: makes me so sad that it took a tragedy of

448
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: someone dying and needless and needless and painful, unacceptable to

449
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: death to get where we are. But I'm just so

450
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: happy that voters in Ireland remembered Sevida. Yes, and virgin

451
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: and I were in the studio when they that news.

452
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: We got the news about it, and we were very excited.

453
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: I was checking checking my phone every five minutes. Yeah.

454
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: I had a feeling it was going to pay. I

455
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: had a feeling it was going to pass by a landslide.

456
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: I did not express those feelings. I learned from a

457
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: certain election that you probably I don't want to get

458
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: to ahead of yourself about verbalizing your thoughts on how

459
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: an election is going to go. But I was pretty

460
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: confident it was going to be a landslide. I didn't

461
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: want to say anything, but it was very confident. Yes,

462
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: and we are happy that that turned out to be

463
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: the case. So that's that's what we have to say. Uh,

464
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: please Irish anyone, any Irish listeners out there, We'd love

465
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: to hear from you, and not just because we love

466
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: your accents, no, because we would be imagining the accent

467
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: in our heads. Since generally there is no audio component

468
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: of mail or social media, you can do an attachment. Yes,

469
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: think big Annie. I'm still stuck in my ways of text.

470
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: I'm behind the times and the times. But speaking of

471
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: this brings us to listener mail. Our first letter letter

472
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: is from Renee. Hey, ladies, I love your show and

473
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: recently listened to the Action Figures episode followed by the

474
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: gender reveal episode, and I thought I would write in

475
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: I'm thirty two and identify myself proudly as a nerd.

476
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: I think that has made me seek out the clothes.

477
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: I are my daughter, Jimma want no matter the department label.

478
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: But it's very frustrating that not only do girls not

479
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: always get the cool, nerdy things we love, but the

480
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: sizes are so different in each department. I recently went

481
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: through her clothes and everything, and a five T from

482
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: the girl's department was too small, both short and tight,

483
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: but her stuff from the boys section still had room

484
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: to grow. I also have issues about how a lot

485
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: of kids clothing lines sexualized girls from birth with tighter,

486
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: shorter clothes, even bikinis for infants. Not only is that disgusting,

487
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: but not every child is built alike. So the sorts

488
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: you think are okay length on your fin athletic toddler,

489
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: make my thicker built big booty one look not great

490
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: to put it nicely from birth. I've just her in

491
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: space science and several fandoms of clothing. If I saw

492
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: something I liked, we bought it. If she wanted a

493
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: Star Wars shirt like daddy, I found her one. Jim

494
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 1: and will be four on Saturday, and she has been

495
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: telling us for over a years she wants to be

496
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: an astronaut when she goes up. I see a definite

497
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: connection in the clothes that she wears, in her attitude

498
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: towards what are typically labeled boy. She also loves fluffy

499
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: cats and pink, but will argue the fact she knows

500
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: more about why the sun shines with you. Raising a

501
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: girl is so much fun, But we make a decided

502
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: effort in her home to literally encourage her to be

503
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: whatever she wants, not just what society thinks she should be.

504
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm continuing to foster her dreams with toys. For a

505
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: birthday this year, She'll be getting the new American Girl Doll, Luciana,

506
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: who also wants to be an astronaut when she grows up.

507
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: I knew that toys mattered, but your show definitely reinforced

508
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: that for me. I've attached pictures of the past four

509
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: years of her outfits below because I'm totally biased. She's adorable.

510
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: She was a rock star astronaut for Halloween, so I

511
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: thought the bowie makeup was appropriate. Pictures are so cute.

512
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Gemma, Happy birthday, so cute. I know a

513
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: rock star astronauts going to argue with you about the

514
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: sunshine ing this is my time. I'm gonna make this kid.

515
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,479
Speaker 1: It sounds like she sounds like a rad kid. I mean,

516
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: she sounds really cool and yeah, I'm happy that she

517
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: has such an awesome mom. Yeah. Our next email is

518
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: from Quentin. Quentin writes, I just wanted to reach out

519
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: to you both following the Female Action Figures podcast. I

520
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: especially identified with the missed potential due to marketing across

521
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: the gender boundary. But from the other direction, My family

522
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: and I are major Disney fans, and my personal favorite

523
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: character is tinker Bell. Tinker Bell is awesome. By the way,

524
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: Disney launched the Disney Fairies line back into two thousand

525
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: five with toys, apparel, and movies. In this franchise, tinker

526
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: Bell solved her problems through tinkering, which basically means building

527
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: and engineering. I saw her as an early stem role

528
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: model for young kids and especially young girls. As an engineer,

529
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: I fell in love with the character. In the two

530
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: thousand nine direct to home film tinker Bell in the

531
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: Lost Treasure, she built a hot air balloon of a

532
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: found item and even had her own adventuring outfit. They've

533
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: since phased out this line, which I think is a

534
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: missed opportunity. Every visit to the Disney Store or Disney parks.

535
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: I'm always on the lookout for tinker Bell merchandise. A

536
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: few years back, I did come across a great, dark

537
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: blue hoodie with a nice Tinkerball design on the back,

538
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: and I wore the heck out of it. But I've

539
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: never found anything like it. Since everything is strongly marketed

540
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: at girls and women, I guess in their minds, guys

541
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: can't be fans of a character or a Disney princess.

542
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: As you discussed in the podcast, they really seem to

543
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: be missing an opportunity if they just included a few

544
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: more gender neutral options for their characters. This applies not

545
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: only to making action figures for girls, but opening up

546
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: some of their other great characters for guys as well. Quentin,

547
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: I cannot agree more. I really want to see this hoodie.

548
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: I want to see all the tinker Bell items that

549
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: you've amassed. And I didn't. It didn't even occur to

550
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: me that tinker Bell was this like mini engineer fairy tinkering. No,

551
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: it didn't to me either, and I'm so glad to

552
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: know that. But absolutely, like, I'm all for It's okay

553
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: if you wanna, you can play whatever with whatever toys

554
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: you want. We don't have to say therefore ex gender

555
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: or ex gender. So yeah, I'm all about all about

556
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: toys for everybody here here. Yeah. So thank you to

557
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 1: both of them for writing. Thanks as always to our producers,

558
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: Delan Fagan and Kathleen Quillian. If you would like to

559
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: write toys you can. Our email is mom Stuff at

560
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com, and you can find us

561
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: on social can't you bridget You sure can, or on

562
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, and on Instagram that stuff

563
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: Mom never told you