WEBVTT - Interview Only w/ Johnny Olszewski - Taking The Pardon Power Away From The President 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.240 This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:04.800 by Incognate. You know, one of the things we talk 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.880 a lot about on this podcast is trust, who deserves 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:09.920 it and who doesn't. And lately I've been thinking about 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:14.200 how much of our personal information is just floating around online. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.920 I'm talking about phone numbers, home addresses, emails, even information 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.400 about your family, all sitting on websites you've probably never 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:22.720 heard of. In the scary part, that information can be 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.600 used by scammers and identity thieves to piece together enough 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.800 details to impersonate you, target you, or worse. 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Use the code you get a discal again, 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:32.120 that's in cogni dot com slash Chuck podcast and use 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.200 the code Chuck podcast to get sixty percent off and 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.520 start taking control of your personal data today. Trust me, 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:44.360 I'm constantly working on this for years myself, and here's 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.600 an opportunity for you to take matters into your own 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:52.800 hands as well. So a few months, a few weeks back, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.160 I spent a lot of time talking to you guys 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.120 here in these and in fact I did a subsetecon 0:01:58.120 --> 0:01:59.640 about this that I said, you know, at the age 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.320 of a warm is coming, and the question was just 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:07.240 sort of when it would begin, And I used the 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:12.560 bipartisan endorsement. The first Republican to endorse my next guest bill, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.880 a constitutional amendment that he is proposing. It's a Democratic 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:22.840 Congressman Johnny Oldchesky from Baltimore, and it was Don Bacon 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.720 became the first Republican to sign on. And it's essentially 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:31.480 a pardon nullification constitutional amendment. It uses in some ways 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:37.320 the same structure of a congressional override of a presidential veto. 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:41.240 It's very similar in its structure. But it was I 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.920 saw it as an opportunity because this was done in 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.720 such a way that it didn't feel specifically targeted to 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.840 one president. We know we've had abuses of the pardon power, 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.520 but by both this one and the previous one, and 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.080 you could argue multiple presidents going forward, going backward. And 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.120 there's some argue the that the pardon clause in our 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:08.639 constitution is the biggest you might say, loophole there is 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.359 between a small D democracy and a small A authoritarian 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.959 UH regime. And so with that, I thought it would 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.799 be nice to hear from the author of this amendment himself, 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.680 Congressman Johnny Oh. He says, we can call him Johnny Oh. 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.720 We'll find out if I'm going to have to start 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:26.760 having a you know, use the code. My my friend 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.799 Tony Kornheiser, Congressman, loves Johnny O Polo shirts and they 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.120 advertise on his So maybe at this point people will 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:35.240 think it's you advertising. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.280 It's the number one gift I get when I talk 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:39.280 to Chambers of congresces, et cetera. 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.360 Yeah, it's the has You know they have that third 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.040 button right that that's what what's what guys like. It's 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.120 like that it's a three button polo rather than sometimes 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.400 the two button polo. So there is something about you know, 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:52.880 it is. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.640 A nice print, a nice constitutional amendment. 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.120 Here. There you go. It's a mighty fine constitution you have. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.760 There be ashamed, mighty find republican. There be shame if 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.600 we lose it. All right, Look, I want to bring 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:04.200 you on on this, but look we'll talk. I want 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:08.080 to talk a lot about sort of how to make 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:12.160 congressman Congress functional again. But this is an important step 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.279 because constitutional You know, I am one of the reasons 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.040 I'm long term optimistic, even if I'm short term pessimistic 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.320 about the direction of our republic is that when we've 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.720 had moments like this before we've used the tools in 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.880 our toolbox. We haven't done it very often. We need 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.280 to use them more, but we don't. We're in and 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.679 around the Civil War, we did in and around Teddy 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.960 Roosevelt throughout the r we did, and I think we're 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.160 in one of those periods again. And you update your constitutions, 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:40.680 and the same reason why you put a new roof 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.880 on your house, you know it. Sometimes you know you realize, oh, 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.400 it's kind of an old structure that's going to have leaks. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.520 We kind of need to put new technology in here. 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.359 And so the updating of the constitution I think is necessary. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.880 But I'm curious where are we Do you have more 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.159 than Don Bacon on board the parton amendment? And since 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.880 I've been on here, am I missing a piece of 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.760 the amendment that you think is important for my listeners 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.440 and viewers to know. I think you pretty much hit it. 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.839 We have a part of it where the petitioning for 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:17.760 review is a pretty narrow approach. Twenty members of the House, 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.680 five members of the Senate can petition for that vote, 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.960 and so part of it is just by having the 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.360 ability to review it, our hope is that presidents will 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.680 think twice before issuing these egregious pardons. But yeah, it 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.720 is very much modeled after a veto override, which I 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.520 thought it was a modest but important step forward to 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.520 say some of these pardons that really are beyond the pale, 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.000 especially under this president, are in need of that kind 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.400 of reform. And so I appreciate Don stepping on and 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.039 really stepping into this in a moment where we're so polarized. 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.039 But that's why we structured that way. And I think 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.480 that as a new member of Congress, having someone who's 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.359 a veteran who really I think understands the institution and 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.039 why this is important. We are now actually this week, 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.120 we're going to be opening up for co sponsors, and 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.520 so we're hoping to see Democrats and Republicans alike join. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:08.840 I know it's going to be harder because I think 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.640 people view it as going after President Trump, and in 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.839 some ways like his have been especially worse in my opinion, 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.920 But as you as you point out, I think the. 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.360 Preemptive partons were terrible. I mean, there's really no defending 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.560 the preemptive partons and what he did. And and I 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.600 might have empathy for Tony Fauci on a personal level, 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:32.520 Lis Chainey in a personal level, there's no doubt there 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.000 there could be attempts. But what really set me off 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.440 about those pardons were they where they get out of 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.360 jail free cards for his family members. That felt like, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.200 what are you doing to prevent what you think the 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.359 next president is going to do? You just gave him 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.160 precedent to do it with his own family m And. 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.479 I suspect he will and. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.240 What will he say when he does it, just like 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:57.120 the previous psident. 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.960 That's right, absolutely, And I think this is part of 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.599 the larger issue. This is one of many places where 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.360 I think Americans are so frustrated with all of us 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.200 because the wealthy and the well connected and those who 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.440 are in power or are privileged or getting away with 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.640 you know, literally crimes I don't want to say murder, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.400 but like they're getting away with pretty serious crimes. They're 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.920 lining their pockets, and everybody else is getting crushed. And 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:27.320 so I think it's pastime, especially in this space, to 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.560 look at the Constitution and say this is you can 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:30.960 drive a truck through this loophole. 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:32.080 I like to think that. 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.920 Our founders had some better sense, that the better angels 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.040 of those who were presidents would not have abused it. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:38.960 In these ways. But here we are. 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.880 And you know, I'm a Democrat who can say that 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.320 presidents I didn't Clinton others also abuse this whether it 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:47.480 was Clinton's half brother. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.680 Do you do any research on this as to why, 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.960 I mean, what are my favorite I find the pardon 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.000 I inclusion in the Constitution one of the biggest head scratchers, 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.960 Like if I could go into a time machine, because 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.080 here's a group of men and it was obviously we 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.360 know it was all men who were so concerned about 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.880 a monarchy and about preventing a monarch as the leader 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:18.720 of our country that they wrote this pretty incredible document 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.760 that has stood the test of time but created a 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.520 loophole right out of a monarchy. And it is one 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.120 of those how the heck did this get into the 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:31.880 Constitution in the first place. 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.040 It's pretty wild considering all the checks and balances that 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.680 are otherwise written into the Constitution. I mean, they were 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.160 so deliberate about, to your point, preventing a return of 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.520 the monarchy, and I think that they would be surprised 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.160 by the amount of presidential authority being exhibited today. Generally, 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.400 I think that the inclinations of those founding fathers were 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.600 actually have as strong legislative branch that could sort of 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.320 help dictate and set the pace for our governance. So 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.600 I did not go that far back in terms of 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.199 my history on the pardon, but I was intrigued to 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.680 learn that there actually was a very similar amendment put 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:19.200 forward following the pardon of Richard Nixon, almost exactly the 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.040 same in terms of a twoth thing that happened. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:26.040 To It installed, obviously, but like, why did you get no? 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.000 But did you get some understanding? Who stalled it? Why 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.319 did it stall? This was a not a super majority 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:38.200 of Democratic majorities, but pretty close in seventy six and 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:38.800 seventy eight. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.080 My sense is that it ended up not being bipartisan, 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.200 which is why we were so deliberate starting this out. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.320 I didn't want to drop this, this legislation, this constitutional 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.080 amendment until we had a Republican on board, And you know, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.480 having Don agreed to do this was a game changer. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:01.640 And it's really open doors to my Republican colleagues at 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.200 a time where it's really hard for us to have 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.200 conversations about anything. But I like to think that both 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.720 he and I approach our work in a way where 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.680 we may have pretty strong philosophical differences on any number 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:15.880 of issues, but that we treat each other in our 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.160 colleagues with some decency and respect, and that we can 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:22.439 approach this issue with the seriousness that it deserves, and 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.520 we're hopeful that, if not under this Congress, that in 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.720 a subsequent Congress, we actually do get this done, because 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:30.360 this is more than just I mean, I want to 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:30.960 see this done. 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.640 Beyond right, I assume your goal is you'll introduce this, 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.559 assuming the voters of Baltimore send you back, that you 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.600 will do this every Congress until you get us right. 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.400 Yeah, And I think it's one of many reforms that 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.080 we should be looking at. I mean, the fact that 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.599 we can't get a decent stockband passed, for example, is 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.000 sort of beyond beyond me. These are things that are 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.400 supported by eighty percent of the voters out there, Republicans 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.319 and Democrats alike. And so I'm I'm a firm believer 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.400 that one of the things we have to do, whether 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.720 it's as Democrats or as members of Congress, is have 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.319 people believe in the institution again. And that's sort of 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.160 holding ourselves to a higher standard and living that standard 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.280 a little bit. So this is one place where I 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:16.960 had a chance and step and lead. 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.960 And sort of know. It is a modest I mean, 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.600 I'll just be honest, It is a somewhat modest proposal. 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.559 I you know, I don't know if one individual should 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.080 have this kind of power. And whether you thought of 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.920 creating a pardon board, you know, that might be made 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.840 up of the two most senior justices, the Attorney General, 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.520 maybe the chairs of the Senate Judiciary and House Judiciary. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.640 Whatever you could create, we could just in the same 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.760 way we have the Gang of Eight for intel briefings 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:51.680 that administration. You know, you could put together a pardon 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.760 board where you would just like anything. I mean, I 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:58.840 think plenty of states have taken the power away from 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:03.600 the governor, created these boards with the governor having ultimate 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.160 sort of thumbs up, thumbs down sign off. Essentially they 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:12.040 will sign off or they won't sign off. Did you 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.640 think about adding that or were you fearing that was 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:19.640 too complicated that it would sort of sort of take 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.240 the eye off of the focal of the focal point here, 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.679 which is just putting a check on his part and power. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:29.319 Part of it with simplicity and aligns with the check 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.320 that already exists in Congress on other bills where there's 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.120 a conflict between the two branches. And frankly, the other 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.240 piece is most other boards. I guess it depends on 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.400 the state, but you sort of get into the questions 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.280 of does the governor or the president still have the 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.160 ultimate authority? And if they do for me, it doesn't 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.960 actually address the problem. And if they don't over the board, 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.200 then I think it could have been more challenging to 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:56.640 get Republicans on board to this idea, especially under this trank. 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.520 I'm just going to be real, under this administration, taking 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:03.280 away the decision making of the president is not something 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.640 that is looked favorly by colleagues in the Republican Party 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:08.120 right now. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:14.160 So when I think about the history of tough things 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:19.640 that need bipartisan support to get through, it's amazing how 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:25.120 often they happen in the month of December. Right, Don't Ask, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.640 Don't Tell was repealed the month after the twenty ten 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:36.000 mid terms. And I remember, if somebody told you Democrats 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.760 just got shellacked in the twenty ten mid terms, you 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.680 know what they're successfully going to do next. They're going 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.280 to repeal Don't as, Don't Tell. And nobody would have 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:48.599 seen a company. Now, was it paired up with solidifying 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.320 the Bush tax cut? Yes, right, there was, certainly, you know, 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.760 this is this is what what we expect Congress to 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:56.520 do right, a little bit here, a little bit there, 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.160 and that's how that's how compromise happens, and that's how 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:07.440 progress happens. This screams December vote to me, meaning you 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.559 know if you could attach it to a must pass 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.840 bill that you would see you know, do you have 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:15.679 a strategy yet in your head of how you want 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.920 to get this passed? Or right now? Is it? If 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.880 you build it, they will come mindset. 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.520 Speaking at this point, it's building the coalition and helping 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.840 to tell the story about why this is important, why 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.920 it's needed, why it's not a partisan a proposal. But 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.040 I will say I actually I love the idea of 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.800 this being a December gift to the American people. So 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.240 I think that that's something that as we're you know, 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.640 as we're having the conversations, people are well, at least 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:47.160 say that's. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:48.680 A great idea. We have to we have to do 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.600 something about. Yeah, let me ask this. Have you had 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:52.760 anybody say well, that's a terrible idea. And here's why. 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.800 No, if anything, it's I can't sign on that because right, 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:59.520 and so I think, to your point, right. 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:01.720 No, what do you say it's a bad idea? They're 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:03.800 just deciding whether they want to put their name. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.040 On it, because what we've seen is indefensible. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:06.240 Right. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:11.640 You can't defend Juan Orlando Hernandez pardon in Honduras. You 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:18.320 can't defend the cz crypto con artists who gave millions 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.160 of dollars to the Trunk cryptocurrency. You can't defend the 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.800 pardon shopping industry where people are now paying upwards of 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:26.680 half a million a million dollars to seek a pardon 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:27.760 from people closer. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:29.720 It's just it's indefensible. 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.880 And so it's more a question of like, I don't 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.240 I'm not worried about it passing if it's giving a vote, 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.800 it's just the function of right. How do we find 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.040 a legislative vehicle or pathway to make sure this actually. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.000 Gets I mean, look, the reason I look at December 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.320 is sort of you're probably an opportune time is if 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.800 the House is going to change hands and there is 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.000 going to be some cleanup, they're going to want to 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.640 get some votes out the door before they lose their majority, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.080 and they want to be able to say that that 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:01.120 you know, you know, maybe that's when you get the 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.760 stock band, right. That's where you could picture how those 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.360 that have survived want to be able to say, hey, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.840 we we hear you, we heard the message, and this 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.160 is a way to respond. I mean it's like, look, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.000 I'm just I will confess. I just want to see 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:23.520 I want to see this work. We need to prove 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.080 that we can use constitutional amendment. I do think there's 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.400 a lot of people who feel powerless at the moment 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:34.400 that they look at the democracy and they think it's 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.760 rigged and I have no say in this. Yep, the 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.480 thought that a constitutional that Congress could propose a constitutional amendment, 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.400 it passes the House and the Senate, and it then 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.240 heads to the state legislatures. I mean it's you know, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.960 civics one oh one, right, Like how an amendment becomes 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.160 comes to be would be a healthy exercise because it's 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:01.240 one of those things once we once we teach the 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.720 country had a fish, I think they'll keep trying to fish. 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.119 Just you know, that'd be nice to actually person in me. 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.280 Yeah, it'd be nice to actually see what I told 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.280 my kids in ninth grade government class when I was 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.119 a teacher before I got into politics, that yes, this 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.080 stuff actually works and this is how things happened. Because 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.160 that has not been my experience in the past. 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:25.000 We really haven't passed a meaningful constitutional amendment, arguably since 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.800 the Kennedy assassination with the twenty fifth Amendment, Right that 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.600 that was a meaningful Oh we have a what if 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.119 the president had lived? Right? That was that to me 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.200 was at least responding to something. Hey, we hadn't dealt 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.400 with this, and perhaps we ought to deal with this scenario. 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:42.960 We really haven't had a meaningful one since then and 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.840 it worked. Well, that's close to sixty years now. I 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:47.600 know we've had a few things on pay raise and 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.720 lowering the age from twenty one eighteen, but to me, 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:56.479 this wasn't a dealing with something that was structurally broken 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:57.400 inside the republic. 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.439 Well, and your point, I think people want to have 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.720 something to believe in again and to say this is 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:09.520 something that transcends our parties and politics and that we 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.640 can look at our structures and how we function. 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:12.840 As a nation. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.240 And I would love to give that hope to I 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.320 think a very weary, a weary. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:24.680 Nation right now. This episode of the Check podcast is 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.000 brought to you by Soul. 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You said something 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:05.760 else a few moments ago that I'm more skeptical frankly 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.639 that that is going to be easy to prove, and 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.800 that is that you can prove to the country that 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.240 Congress can you know, be a independent branch of government again. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.840 And you know, if Democrats get the House back, you know, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.080 some people are going to think they've got a mandate 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.680 to go impeach Trump, and some are going to say 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.439 they have a mandate to just simply oppose all things Trump. 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.119 And some will say, no, we have a mandate to 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:39.159 make Congress a functional branch again. The problem is, and 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.080 you know, I'm just speaking reality, your own caucus probably 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.960 is divided in three like this now, which is you know, 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.639 what what should be the focus, you know, what it 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:55.119 takes to create more belief in the independence of the 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.879 legislative branch, which might not be in the best interests 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.560 of the hardcore base of the Democratic Party. So how 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:01.479 do you navigate that? 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.440 The same way I think about all this is it's 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:08.520 sort of the I approach politics as a Maslow's hierarchy 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.680 and as a party and as a institution. We should 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.840 be focusing on addressing people's base needs first, and as 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:18.760 we were saying earlier, I feel like we've failed at 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.600 that miserably. Cost of living was supposed to be the number. 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.359 You know, day one, President Trump that he would address it. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.240 Any number of my colleagues and I ran on lowering 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.960 the cost of living. And I always say, if people 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.399 can't put food on the table and provide for a 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.600 roof over their head, they don't really care about any 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:40.800 of the other issues. And so I think that we 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.320 can hold the president accountable, and if there are impeachable offenses, 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:48.439 we can look at pursuing that. But we have to 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:54.560 also provide for Americans, whether it's a fair wage, whether 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.560 it's addressing the healthcare crisis that is. You know, I 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.320 think the average maryland is paying four thousand dollars more 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.120