WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 191 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.400 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.280 Hello, and welcome, take it up. And here I'm joined 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:32.120 once again. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:33.280 By your Sadavas. 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.920 Hello, Hello, Hello, And recently I was reading through a 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:45.160 photo book called Humans by Brandon Stanton. It features interviews 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:47.479 of people on the streets all over the world. He 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:49.440 starts it off and he kind of became well known 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.640 online for the Humans of New York series. I'm not 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:53.440 sure if you've heard of that. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:54.240 Yeah, I think so. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.280 Yeah, yeah, So he did that for a while and 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.120 he ended up traveling to other parts of the world 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.400 and doing basically the same thing, just interview people on 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.240 the street, getting their insights, hearing their struggles, hearing their story. 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.000 And when I saw the book in the library, I 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.080 just I picked it up or it decided to read 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.920 it through and it's really profound in a sense, and 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.960 you get a sense of the spectrum of humanity, of 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:19.119 what people are going through, of the highs and lows 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.200 of the human experience. And I mean, it can make 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.440 you laugh on one page and make you cry for 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:30.480 the next page. And seeing that variety of humanity reminded 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.080 me of another book that I read and finished recently, 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:39.399 which is called Humankind Hopeful History by Rutka Bregmant. A 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.080 friend of mine had given it to me because he 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.000 said it had changed his whole view on the world. 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:46.000 And so I wanted to talk about some of the 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.800 concepts that I picked up in that book, like the 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.520 origins and critiques of veneer theory, why most people are 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.240 actually pretty decent, and the problems with some of the 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.400 narratives of our wickedness and the next up. So would 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:02.360 I want to get into some of the reasons why 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.720 people do bad and what we can do about it? 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:10.760 Sounds exciting because there is a lot of bad right now. 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.400 That is there is I mean as on that stuff. 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.160 I mean, what would you say is the most common 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.519 perspective you hear on humanity? On human nature? 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.840 I don't know, like there's there's this clash between like 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.400 this like liberal humanist version and then this like Christian 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.080 moralist version I guess like in the States right now, 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:37.200 but that's been going on for decades, if not centuries. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.000 By liberal humanists on Christian I mean, I think I 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.440 get a sense of what the Christian moralist version is, right, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.520 that we are all sinful, destined for hell and ey salvation, 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.040 that that version. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.720 Of the story, yeah, you know, more or less. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.520 And the liberal humanist perspective is I. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.959 Mean, I don't know, like this this this forever search 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.920 for like what human rights are and like human decency. 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.720 So we come up with like governments and rules to 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.040 actually like govern over our morals as a democratic process 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.079 that continues to evolve over the course of like hundreds 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.080 of years. We're like, you know, on the moral arc 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.640 of the universe, just not fully you know there yet. 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.760 Yeah, I've heard that perspective, I think most commonly and 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:24.920 decent in my space, as I tend to hear the 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.160 you know, people are wicked, people are sinful and religious cases, 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.919 or people are violent, people are selfish, and that kind 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.440 of in that similar namrelving where we have these systems 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.800 in place to kind of check our impulses, to kind 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:45.320 of keep us regulated and to keep society functioning. And 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:51.640 Bregman opens his book by discussing the idea of civilization 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:56.040 being a thin mask that covers our true savage instincts. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.560 He calls it the Vinea theory, and he spends the 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.640 rest of the book basically pointing out all the different 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.320 errors in that judgment. I mean, he doesn't claim that 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:09.080 we're all good people, happy, go lucky, saying so anything 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.720 like that, but he does see it for the most part, 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.120 most people are pretty decent that I know that clashes 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.560 with all a lot of people are accustomed to hearing, 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.560 and there are some very notable exceptions. But despite the 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.000 efforts of elite to paint and purport a different picture, 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:35.279 there's actually a lot more leaning towards our decent, if 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.000 not good nature and the contrary. But of course, of 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.840 these kind of conversations, you always had to go back 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.800 to the debate between Thomas Hobbes and Sean Jackers, So 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.040 we can't escape these guys. Hobbes, of course, had the 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.200 perspective in Leviathan, which was written in sixteen fifty one, 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.599 that in the absence of a strong central authority. Human 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.320 beings would live in a condition of perpetual war, with 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.240 every man against every other man, a war of war 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.080 against all. As it would have put it so to him, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.800 people are naturally self interested and driven by the desire 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.239 for power and survival. So without laws or a sovereign 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.320 to keep them in check, individuals would act purely on 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:21.400 their own instincts, lead into constant conflict over resources, safety, 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:26.440 and dominance. Life in this state of nature would be 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:32.200 solitary for nasty, brutish, and short. A couple of years later, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.640 a couple of decades later, Rousseau was writing in the 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.039 Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality among Men, 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.279 and he basically flipped hobbsview on its head. He believed 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.280 that humans in the state of nature were peaceful, cooperative, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.919 and guided by basic needs and compassion, and there was 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:56.560 a development of hierarchies and institutions that had led to inequality. 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.520 Jealousy and competition were basically corrupted human age. In his words, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.680 man is born free and everywhere he is in chains. 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:06.880 Do you take a side in this debate? 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.679 By the way er not to be the centrist option, 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:12.599 But I don't know. I think I think both these 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.640 things play into each other. I definitely don't believe in 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.360 the idea that like this state is the only thing 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:24.400 that reigns people in and stops them from doing a 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.080 moral acts. Right, It's the same thing as like without 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.400 without God or without the Bible, then everyone would just 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.120 be like raping and murdering it. Meanwhile, actual Christians obviously 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.520 rape and murder all the time anyway. But like, no, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.760 like this this idea isn't the only thing that keeps 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:45.560 you from becoming this like you know, savage like inhuman monster. 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:50.440 People can be morally good without this this like religious notion. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.080 And I think in some ways the state can also 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.600 operate as a religious notion to these people, where you know, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.040 the police is the only thing that's keeping you from 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.040 becoming this like horrible monster who's for a typerone around you. 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.719 But I also have my sympathies to the like alternate 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.679 side of that, And I can see there's a great 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.600 deal of oppression and horrific violence that can only happen 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.080 at scale under the organization of a state. So I 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.240 will pick the annoying centris option. 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:20.680 Yeah, I know that there's a lot of people who 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.280 have the sense that you know, the state and the laws, 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.400 all that standing between us and the purge or mad 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.680 Max or something like that. Sure, exactly, So, yeah, I 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.880 don't think that Hobbes's over generalization of human nature as 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.720 inherently violent and selfish holds up when you look at 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.560 the diversity of human experience and human societies. I mean, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.280 that's not to say that violence and conflict were absent 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:50.520 in a world out state, but you know, contact, matters, resources, environment, 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.400 group size, all those things would have played roles. I 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.560 don't think that we should be accepting Rousseau's romantic light either, 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.320 So I guess I'm in the centris with you. The 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.760 truth does seem to lie somewhere in that middle ground. 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:09.400 That human nature is flexible and then it's shaped by social, ecological, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:24.000 and historical contexts of what's getting the weeds of humanity's 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.720 origins is stimulating as an exercise, but there's only so 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.040 much we can know about the past for certain. What 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.720 we can't know for certain is the present, And what 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.960 we've seen in the present is that when disaster strikes, 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:41.040 people have tended to help each other. In Hurricane Katrina 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:45.000 in two thousand and five, the official response was famously 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:51.320 criticized for being slow and disorganized. And yet despite media 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.079 attempts to pay in these people as looters and thugs 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.520 and all these different things, community members, neighbors, volunteers all 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.360 stepped up to rescue people, to mobilize food, shelter and 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.480 basic aid, to expropriate when necessary, to get people what 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:12.200 they needed, long before federal agencies gone on the scene. Similarly, 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:16.400 in a more recent occurrence, after the Cranfelt Tower fire 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:21.480 in the UK in twenty seventeen, the official channels had 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.439 failed the people of that tower. Many diet as a result. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.360 Regulations that were supposed to protect people were not enforced 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.720 or were absent. And yet it was community members who 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.160 sprang into action to provide water and shelter and food 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.080 and clothes and emotional support even when the twin towers 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.280 fell on Spement eleven, two thousand and one. And this 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.280 is an example that brag when I actually spent some 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:52.120 time talking about people actually helped people descend the stairwells 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.920 in an orderly fashion. You know, they would say, you know, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:59.880 after you going down the stairs, and passers by would 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.839 go in and help others to evacuate and assist the 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.600 wounded law before the emergency services arrived. So people acted 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:12.560 and prioritize helping others even in a disaster scenario. And 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.800 yet what do we see in dystopian fiction. In apocalyptic fiction, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.320 you see people just like driving around shooting guns in 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.320 the air. You see the purge, you see the mad Max, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.880 you see the zombie apocalypse scenarios. In Rebecca Solnet's book, 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.080 A Paradise Built in Hell, she found that disasters peeled 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.599 back the layers of society and revealed the empathy, cooperation, 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.600 and care at humanity's core. She noted that when disaster 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.600 strikes is when people most often reveal the better natures. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.000 And yet those negative narratives tend to have more sway 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:48.559 in the popular imagination. 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.720 No, and this is like so true. I remember in 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.520 twenty twenty, during the wildfires on the West Coast, the 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.040 anarchist response was to set up these like giant like 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.200 mutual aids centers. Were people fleeing from the fire, you know, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.079 like not like other anarchists, just like regular people fleeing 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:09.280 from the fire could get necessities and figure out housing. Meanwhile, 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.199 right wing militias were setting up checkpoints monitoring to make 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.439 sure Antifa wasn't, you know, like raiding people's homes as 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.760 they were fleeing from the fires. Like these were the 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.240 two options you had. You had you had anarchists actually 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.160 helping the people who were who were fleeing from this 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.600 horrific fire and setting up like massive, massive, like aid 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:35.040 distribution centers. Meanwhile right wing militias were pulling people over 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.359 at gunpoint making sure Antifa wasn't up to any shenanigans. 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.520 And similar stuff happened last year during Hurricane Helene on 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.679 the East Coast, where you had a whole bunch of 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:51.360 like Southeast anarchists in the Appalachians do mutual a disaster response. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.480 Meanwhile right wing militias were spreading rumors about like FEMA 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.280 fraud and all of all of this crazy stuff, not 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.320 actually helping anybody. But it was anarchists doing a large 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.200 a large amount of the actual like water distribution and 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.760 like medical assistance on the ground as the federal response 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:10.440 was delayed and insufficient. 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.960 Yeah, I mean, I was aware of the anarchist efforts 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.800 during these disasters, but I wasn't. I didn't know about 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.520 that that situation with the riving militias setting up checkpoints. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.280 That's not shocking, but still wild, you know. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.319 Yeah, no, it's so funny because those are the people, 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.280 you know, claiming that, you know, without the government, we 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.920 would have the purge, the anarchists would just go around 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.520 doing all kinds of crazy crimes. I get when things 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.560 actually happen, their attempts to like deputize them as like 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.920 their own police force actually creates those conditions. Meanwhile, anarchists 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.280 are the ones actually helping. 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:51.160 People exactly exactly. And yet despite these situations, these these 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.760 things happen again and again, we still have these popular narratives. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.000 You don't know, the narrative I see referenced all the 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:58.760 time Lord of the Flies. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:00.839 Yes, of course, of course. 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.760 All the time. Right, It's basically become a cultural shorthand 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.200 for the idea that people are just savage at heart, 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.840 that this veneer civilization is the only thing keeping us 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.920 in check. I mean, these days, I do see people 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.120 joking that it's because those were British boys. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.960 So true, actually, so true. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.280 But while I get the joke, I think it's also 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.200 important to remember that it's like people are taking this 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.720 work of fiction as if it's an anthropological study. Yeah, 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:31.880 when it's just something that a guy made up as 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.360 an analogy for, you know, the situation during World War Two. 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.240 I think it's also good to remember that the British 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.760 are people too. I have a British co worker, so 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.960 you know, we have to we have to show them 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.640 a little bit of human human dignity exactly exactly. 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.520 People embrace the story because it confirms what they want 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.320 to believe in this climate of cynicism. But Bragman actually 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.800 tells a story in the book about a true instance 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.439 of when a shipwreck of young boys occurred. Of course, 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.600 they weren't British boys. There were Tonguean boys as and 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.880 from the country of Tonga. So in nineteen sixty five, 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.600 six Tonguan boys we were stranded on a remote island 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.400 for over a year, and rather than descended into violence, 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.960 they survived through cooperation. You know, the built a garden, 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.000 they shared duties. They didn't do any human sacrifices. You know, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.880 they created a rotor system to get things done. There 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.400 result conflict. When people were in conflict, they would go 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.400 on time out. They would put each other on timeout 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.160 and go on opposite side of the island until the 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.360 you know, cooler heads prevailed, they figure out ways to 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.280 deal with their conflicts, to organize themselves without authority and 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.720 without chaos. But the problem is that these fictional narratives 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.680 become so powerful instead of the real ones that they 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.320 have a similar effect to the placeboy effect. In fact, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.880 it's the placeboy effect's evil twin, the no sea Boy effect. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.160 I've heard about the placebo effect before, and I'm sure 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.480 you have as well, But for those who don't know, 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:09.400 it's basically where someone's health actually improves after receiving what's 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.880 basically a dummy treatment like a sugar pill or a 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:17.359 fake surgery or a saline injection. The body heals itself 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.000 because the mind of the person believes it's being healed. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.560 The mind turns that trust into medicine. I mean, that's 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.080 just that's amazing to me even now, and they'll quite 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.200 understand how it works yet, but it's still really cool. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.280 But there's another dimension to the placeboy effect that I 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.560 hadn't heard about before, but it makes intuitive sense. I 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.080 suppose it's called the no seaboy effect, and Bregman is 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.000 the one who introduced me to that concept. So the 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.400 no Seawoy effect is where, instead of belief healing you, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:52.040 it's belief that makes you sick. So people experience real pain, 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.160 real symptoms, and even real illness, not because there's an 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.800 actual physical cause, but because in their minds, the ex 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.600 expect to be harmed, so their minds to that fear 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.320 of harm into actual harm and injury. And there was 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.280 one case study that he used where a child had 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.920 drunk a coke and photo was poisoned and then just 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.480 created this mass hysteria almost with dozens of children in 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.440 hospitals with headaches and nausea and pardic attacks because they 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.440 drank coke, to the point where Coca Cola actually had 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.680 to recall all of those drinks, even though tests had 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.640 shown that there was nothing in the drinks that were 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.160 making people sick, but their body still responded as if 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.320 there was because they believed they heard the story, they 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.600 heard about it, they saw what happened to others, and 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.560 they believed it would happened to them. And that's the 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.760 no super effect in action, right, So we get the concept. 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.760 So Bregman actually stretched these concepts beyond the field of medicine, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.320 and he basically made the point that what if these 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.639 contents are abate into how we view each other. You know, 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:08.920 so what if I believe that people are selfish and 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.600 cruel and violent by nature? Actually makes it so, you know, 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.360 if you expect the worst from people, you'll act on that. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.679 You know, you might be colder or more defensive, or 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:23.520 more likely to punish or preempt betrayal. And what happens 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.479 as a result is that, you know, people pick up 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.600 on that energy. They're spawning kind they withdraw, they retaliate, 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.920 and then that cycle ends up feeding itself. And so 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.639 the belief that negative belief becomes a social reality, a 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.679 self fulfilling prophecy. So we end up building institutions that 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:45.399 are based on that cynical expectation. We design policies that 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.080 are based around the punishment we are, train ourselves to 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.920 see strangers as threats rather than as neighbors. And then 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.600 when we have a fallout, as when that prophecy is 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.120 fulfilled by our own actions, we can then say, well, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.119 see I was right. You know, people are awful. But 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.800 what we don't see is that our expectations and the 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.600 systems we build around those expectations are part of what 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.080 ends up making it that way. I think an easy 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.760 example to going to is with prison. Right, people expect 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.520 criminals to act like animals, to act like monsters to beasts, 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.040 and so they create prisons, and then those prisons treat 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.480 them like animals, monsters and beasts, and people respond to that. 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.960 You know, you treat people like animals, they're going to 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.440 behave like animals. So then the question that Bragmann poses 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.080 is what happens if we decide to treat people like 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.680 their good you know, trusting their intentions, leaning into care, 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.120 and building our systems around the assumption that most people 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.080 are decent. So how do we make that leap? I 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.520 said before that you know, we don't really necessarily need 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.720 to go into the past to see how people behave 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.040 in the present, but it's a good idea to get 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:57.320 a sense of how we evolved. 0:18:57.640 --> 0:18:57.840 Right. 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.560 A lot of people have a brutal perception of human evolution. 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:08.879 You know, they track comparisons between us and chimpanzees, or 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.639 you know, they make it see first of all, like 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.919 norn bernobos entirely and also ignoring the fact that we 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.679 are our own species with our own evolutionary history. You know, 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.480 people that are very cynical and honestly insultant, like view 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.000 of like the cave men of our past, but our 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.040 histories are actually pretty soft. In fact, Bragman argues in 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.359 favor of something called self domestication theory, which has a 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:39.240 little bit of anthropological and evolutionary biological back in. And 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.359 so the basic claim of this theory is that the 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.120 reason Homo sapiens survived and other ancient humans didn't isn't 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.480 because you were the strongest, or the smartest, or the 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.200 most cunning, or because you were friendlier. That we evolve 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.720 to be more social, cooperative, playful, and trusting. Self domestication 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:02.199 theorists basically compare humans as to the other Homo species 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.320 as wolves. That we domesticate ourselves to become less aggressive, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:12.120 or faces softened, our bodies became less robust, and our 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.480 openness and friendliness allowed us to build relationships, to build groups, 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:20.000 to raise children, community, and to survive. And so if 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.760 we accept our theory, we acknowledge that and build that 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.919 into our foundation, that we did evolve our capacity to 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.680 be kind, that it is something that is within our humanity, 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.600 that it's not a fragile gloss over savagery or a 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.800 morality that's given to us by religional law. Then we 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:40.119 can basically become who were capable of becoming, you know, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.080 we can create systems that allow us to develop that. 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.919 And this sounds really optimistic, This sounds really happy, go 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.199 lucky and woo. And we are going to get into 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:54.520 some of the darker chapters of our humanity in the 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.680 next episode. But I wanted to wrap this one up 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:03.479 by unpacking the death of Catherine Kitty Genevieve's in nineteen 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.760 sixty four. It's another example the Breckman refers to in 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.560 his book, and it's one of the classic case studies 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.720 that was used for a long time to illustrate the 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.639 apathy and cold hotness of humanity. Because the New York Times, 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.360 which as we all know, is a reputable and trustworthy institution, 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.320 The New York Times claimed that she was stabbed in 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.040 the street while thirty eight neighbors looked on and did 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.520 nothing right. This was the quintessential story that was used 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.560 to say, you know, look at that, bystand the effect 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.080 humans just don't care, you know. There was used as 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:44.080 an example of apathy, of urban de kay, of everything 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.800 wrong with us. But the story was wrong. The reporters 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.440 will to help this story and it was wrong. I mean, yes, 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.240 she was murdered, but people did try to help. Someone 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.120 called the police, but this was in a time before 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.199 nine one one, so it was yet to call like 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.280 the local station, and then the response process was a 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.760 bit slow. One neighbor actually rushed out and held her 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:11.199 as she died, held her in their arms. So the 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:16.119 press spun this story as like some bleak tale, and 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.240 the few of psychology ate it up because it was 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:21.920 part of a trend at the time to create this 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.760 perception of humanity. But the real story was a lot 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.159 more hearing, a lot more human. I mean, it was 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:34.520 messy and somebody still murdered her. But this idea of 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.119 the vistandary fact that has been so inflated, A lot 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:39.639 of the key studies that have been used as examples 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.760 of them have been chipped away at over time, and 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.800 that's one of the main stories that has been pretty 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.120 thoroughly debunked at this point. So I like where bread 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:54.520 One's been going. But we've glossed over the dark side, 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:58.359 you know, the shadow of our humanity. You know, even 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.440 he acknowledges in this book that we do bad stuff 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:03.760 as well. So the next episode we are going to 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:06.800 wade into that, but how you feel in about humanity 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:07.600 so far. 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:13.399 I think I actually do have an underlying optimism like 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:17.040 beneath how I move around in the world, which is 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.639 which is kind of odd considering the sort of stuff 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.040 I do for work, but it is true, and I 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:25.000 think part of that is what just keeps me going. 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.399 I don't know, like, yeah, I've certainly been around my 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:31.840 fair share of like doomers and nihilists over the years, 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.280 and at the very least those people don't seem to 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:39.119 be very happy and don't seem to be enjoying life, 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:42.800 and sometimes it's hard to enjoy life, absolutely, but I 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.159 think you need to be able to find a place 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:49.880 for yourself within a world that has like evil as 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:54.560 a almost inherent component and find your way either through that, 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:59.600 sometimes around that, but oftentimes through it. And I think 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:01.800 that's I mean, that's that's just been a part of 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.960 like growing up. We're certainly growing up in like a 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.440 weird time, but I think that's kind of always been true, 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.480 Like that's that was that was true one hundred years ago. 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:13.679 So I don't know, I a part of me and 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.600 maybe this is just over the optimistic, but but part 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:20.160 of me continues to resist being a doomer despite all 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.919 of the bad news that is trying to infiltrate my 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:26.000 brain at all times, which is which is a very 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:29.440 profitable industry, right. I mean that's somewhat kind of what 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.120 this show is, right. It kind of does play into 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.760 those instincts for sure, which is which is something that 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:38.520 like we critique amongst ourselves often and we try to 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:40.879 always find that balance as well. But but yeah, like 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:44.000 the doom cycle is like a is a is a 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.679 huge industry, and there's there's people that absolutely want you 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:49.560 to always be panicking all the time. Yeah, and that 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.600 drives consumer choices, that drives ad revenue, right. 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:56.480 I mean Bregman puts forward a very compellent argument in 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.399 the book actually that the news is a public health 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:00.719 asset totally. 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.520 Yeah, no, like absolutely, and like I have to keep 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:05.960 up with the news all the time, and I don't 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:08.800 think it affects me that much anymore. And certainly in 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:11.840 you know, doing a daily news show, we try to 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:13.840 be very selective in the things that we cover. We 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.880 don't cover everything all the time. We try to cover 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:19.960 the things that, like our our hosts feel is both 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:23.000 like within their wheelhouse and that people who listen to 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.840 the show should know about write certain things that you 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:27.960 might not be hearing about in like a mainstream news. 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:33.239 But but no, the news has a massive h thing 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:36.159 spiritual evil to it as well. There is there is 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:40.680 a sinister undercurrent to to like the news like as 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.760 like an industry indeed, and that's something that we are 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:47.239 also always like butting up against. Well on that, on 0:25:47.320 --> 0:25:49.400 that optimistic note. 0:25:49.240 --> 0:26:18.680 Yeah, until next time, we'll follow it to all the people. Peace, Hello, 0:26:18.720 --> 0:26:22.920 and welcome to it happen here last episode I was joined. 0:26:22.640 --> 0:26:23.959 By your savior. 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:28.359 Hello, Ada's here again because we're gonna get more into 0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:31.439 what we spoke about last time. Last episode, we painted 0:26:31.480 --> 0:26:35.080 a hopeful account of humanity's nature. Could see if my 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:39.720 reading of Rutka Bregman's Humankind a hopeful history. So I 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:42.920 probably fed into the anarchists so utopia narrative a bit 0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:45.760 with that previous episode. But the truth is that I'm 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:51.360 not really being optimistic. I'm being realistic. But realism has 0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:55.119 been confused with cynonicism for so long that even acknowledging 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.199 both sides of the coin can be seen as overly 0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:02.120 Utopia can be bad. And we'll get into the why. 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:05.840 But for whatever reason, they are bad. That is why, 0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:10.680 as anarchists have consistently argued, nobody should have authority. Now, 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:14.200 there will always be outliers, and this explanation I'm about 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:15.960 to share it is not going to get into every 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:20.080 unique case of badness, but we are going to get 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:22.400 into some of the reasons that people do bad and 0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:26.320 what we can do about it. As I said last episode, 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:31.679 we took issue with this idea of civilization as a 0:27:31.720 --> 0:27:36.080 thin venail, and we're put forward the premise the Keemans 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:39.040 are mostly pretty decent. In fact, I didn't mention it 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:42.120 last episode, but we don't even really like to kill 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:46.480 each other. Contrary to popular belief, brag when actually shares 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:49.879 that in World War Two, studies showed that many soldiers 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:54.479 didn't shoot their weapons even in combat. Trained soldiers had 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:57.720 a difficult time actually pulling the trigger and killing people. 0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:01.600 There are exceptions, as I said before, but in a 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:04.160 lot of cases it's very difficult for people to actually kill. 0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:09.480 Military strategies ended up changing once authorities realized this, and 0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:13.600 the training programs of soldiers was redesigned to overcome this resistance. 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:18.320 But that reluctance to killing does also indicate that it 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:23.520 takes some effort to overcome our general decency toward each 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.879 other because most people, again most on all are not 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:31.000 natural born killers. So again, how do we do bad? 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:33.919 You know, all sorts of atroctees have been carried out 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:37.240 by humans, both in ancient and modern times. What do 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:38.320 you think is the course. 0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:43.600 Self preservation in some way, either physical or psychological. I'm 0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:46.960 not an anthropologist, I'm not a sociologist. Most of my 0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:51.200 experiences with people is both queer people and then looking 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:54.280 at Nazis and like political extremists, so it's maybe not 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:58.240 the best sample side for the general population. I think 0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:02.080 I tend to exist kind of on the perimeter of 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:07.600 most human experience, but probably some form of either psychological 0:29:07.680 --> 0:29:11.800 or physical self preservation in my experience slash opinion. 0:29:12.440 --> 0:29:15.600 That's interesting. I didn't think of it. I think it 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:20.040 comes close to what Bregman ends up getting into. But 0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:24.040 I think self preservation, well, we'll get into that in 0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:28.000 a bit. You know, it's it's difficult to square that 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:31.520 with just how brutal some of these disasters have been. 0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:36.480 You know, these atrocities that have taken place around the world, 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:41.960 organized systemic industrial cruelty, you know, things like the Holocaust totally. 0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:45.800 It's interesting because I think it's two paradoxical instincts that 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:48.360 play off each other. There's this self preservation and there's 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.160 also I believe in I thin guess some version of 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.560 the death drive, and I think those can can interact 0:29:54.600 --> 0:30:00.160 in really odd ways. But I desk drive, yeah, is 0:30:00.160 --> 0:30:02.719 specifically like specifically like like fascism, and like you know, 0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:05.200 you can see this in like the genocides of the 0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:08.360 twentieth century and twenty first centuries, like specifically, but no, 0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:12.120 like fascism as like a political embodying of the death drive, 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:15.000 which is I think also an aspect. I think these 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:19.760 things exist together in parallel while being paradoxical, and that's 0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:24.880 what produces a lot of the incongruity around things like fascism, right, 0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:28.160 it is it is like an inherently paradoxical system. 0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:31.120 When you say self preservation, are you just talking about 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:34.160 on the individual level, or are you seeing like community 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:36.040 self preservation as well? 0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:39.160 Both both but also I think not even just physical 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:41.840 but also like psychological like being able to like continue 0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:45.360 being able to continue existing as yourself, either within a 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:48.040 group of people or just you as an individual. Like 0:30:48.080 --> 0:30:50.440 psychological things that you need to do to make yourself 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:52.960 feel like you're in community or that you are safe, 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:55.280 that you have meaning, or that you have purpose as 0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:56.560 well as the physical aspects. 0:30:56.720 --> 0:31:00.480 And you're saying that that lends itself to atrocity. 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:00.680 I think it can. 0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:04.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that actually is strikingly close toward 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:06.440 Bragman ends up uncovering. 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:08.640 Look at the reasons that people will talk about, for 0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:12.000 like why the genocide and Gaza is like necessary, right 0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:15.520 it is it is playing off both of those impulses. 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.640 Yeah, yeah, I mean all sorts of genocides when you 0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:21.520 hear the descriptions of them, and this is what you 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:25.320 hear of the people who perpetuated them, what their explanations 0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:30.200 or justifications, you know, from the Holocaust to Rwanda to Palestine. 0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:33.040 Yeah, it's me and mar you know, totally. 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:36.840 It is deeply evil. It's that something we can look 0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:39.400 away from it. It really is difficult to square with 0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:42.280 the most humans a decent thesis when you look at 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:44.880 how some of these society is, even the ordinary people, 0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.720 for example, the citizen population of Israel, Evan, the civilian population, 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:54.560 even they are like disturbing the genocide. Oh in their rhetoric, 0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:57.360 and so you know, it's like, how do we reach 0:31:57.400 --> 0:31:59.760 that point? How do we get there? How does an 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:02.720 order marry human bab grow into. 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:05.720 That it can happen to you. It can happen very easily, 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:07.400 and I think it can happen in a short time 0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:09.560 span and you can get out of it. I think 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:11.840 maybe not just as easily, but you can't get out 0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:13.440 of it also in a fast time span. I think 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:16.000 it's like that you are not immune to propaganda. Idea 0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:18.360 you can look at like in Nazi Germany, Robert has 0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:22.640 talked about quote unquote the little Nazis, the regular Germans 0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:26.000 who ended up partipating and becoming Nazis, and you are 0:32:26.240 --> 0:32:30.680 not immune from that, and that can happen as a 0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:33.440 response to a whole bunch of traumatic impulses as well. 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:37.320 Whereas I think people now even use like politics just 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:41.120 to You're like this like idea of politics as permission 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:45.720 to be like an overtly cruel person to other people, 0:32:45.800 --> 0:32:48.280 either like in your life or online. Right, you will 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:52.040 you will use use various political topics and that gives 0:32:52.040 --> 0:32:55.960 you permission to unleash unmitigated hostility against people that you 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.760 now perceive as being like immoral or you perceive as 0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:02.720 being like ontological and means exactly exactly. 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:06.640 I mean, there were particular studies that were undertaken in 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.400 the twentieth century that are often used to sort of 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:13.120 explain that. You know, after the fall of Nazi Germany 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:16.080 and the post World War II era, people will seeking 0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:21.480 explanations for atrocity and so so experiments were done and 0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:24.880 are now pointed to as explanations for how this could 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:27.640 have taken place. You know. So one particular experiment that's 0:33:27.640 --> 0:33:30.880 really well known as the Stanford prison experiment, right, this 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:34.160 idea that you take random students and give them a 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:38.320 position of power and they become statistic gods. You know, 0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:41.200 it proves just how thin the ven ale civilization really is, 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:46.080 or already the evil the civilization could empower. But at 0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:50.640 least for that particular experiment, the reality was never so straightforward. 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:54.160 You know, the gods were literally coached and encouraged to 0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:57.600 be cruel. You know, they were actually putting on performances. 0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:02.040 The prisoners were also expected to form. So rather than 0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:05.520 being like an actual scientific experiment, it was more like 0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:06.640 guided theater. 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.319 I mean it inadvertently it becomes an interesting experiment in 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:16.440 like humans desire to like please authority, right exactly exactly, 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:19.200 to like perform to the expectations of the people who 0:34:19.200 --> 0:34:22.879 are actually running this experiment, and how capable you are 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:27.720 of falling into these roles under like under that paradigm exactly. 0:34:27.800 --> 0:34:29.520 I mean, you see that in Nazi Germany as well, 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:32.120 a lot of the people were doing things to please 0:34:32.160 --> 0:34:36.360 the fear, you know, like they didn't necessarily know or 0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:39.720 there was a lot of wiggle room from what I've read, 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:43.879 to interpret the fear as wishes, yeah, as people who 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:47.279 wanted to rank up and rise up in the in 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.640 the organization, but interpret things in a way that they 0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:54.560 would presume would please Pitta and his. 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:57.439 Desires moving towards the fear. 0:34:57.680 --> 0:35:00.719 Yeah, exactly exactly. That's the that's the name the phenomenon. 0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:13.400 So I mean when when the sound for person experim 0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:16.640 when people tried to recreate the experiment for television, you've 0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:20.480 got it made for pretty boring TV because it was 0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:23.680 bad science in the first place. It's not something that 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:26.000 people do not actually, it's it's what they do when 0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:28.480 they are pushed, when they are prodded, you know, when 0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:31.279 certain expectations et ceter It's kind of similar with this 0:35:31.400 --> 0:35:34.680 other famous experiment that that Bragman talks about, which is 0:35:34.680 --> 0:35:39.080 the Stanley Milcrumb's Obedience experiment, where volunteers were told to 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:43.440 administer increasingly painful electric shocks the stranger just because I 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:46.000 got in a lamp code told them to. It's like 0:35:46.160 --> 0:35:48.759 another instance of you know, we doing these things just 0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:52.120 to please authority, even to the point of murder, because 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:55.719 you know, the the dial of the electric shock was 0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:58.000 deadly after a certain point, and you could hear the 0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:00.760 screams of the the victim, of course, the fake screams, 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:04.120 but you know, the participants could hear them. But what 0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:07.160 Bregman ended up uncovering is that most of the participants 0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:10.839 wouldn't follow the orders blindly. They were following the orders, yes, 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:13.719 but they were doing it because they believed that they 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:17.080 were doing something good, something good for the good of science. 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:19.920 That even though the shocks were uncomfortable, that it wasn't 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:23.240 something they wanted to do, there was a noble sacrifice 0:36:23.600 --> 0:36:27.200 in the name of progress. Even so, the participants weren't 0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:30.000 in the front. You know, they were distressed, they were shaken, 0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:32.040 they were sweat, and they were begging to check on 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:36.120 the learner, but they also said things like he agreed 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.600 to be in the experiment, you know, or this will 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.120 help science, right, or I don't want to do this, 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:43.959 but I have to, demanded lab code, who is telling 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.880 them to continue? Please continue, Please continue. He was calm, 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:50.680 he was professional, and also even how in the nudges 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:53.600 that he used were framed made a difference. So if 0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:55.960 he was directly ordering them and telling them you have 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.560 to do this, surprise, many people would actually be more 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:03.080 likely to resist a direct order framed in that way 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:06.640 for such an experiment. But a more subtle nudge just 0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:10.040 like know what, you know science, the experimental requires this, 0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:12.839 you know, the experiment needs to do this. A more 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:15.880 subtle it tended to get people to continue. And the 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:17.800 people who were interviewed who did take it up to 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:20.080 those higher volagers, they said they did it because they 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:25.200 believed they were contributing to scientific development. So it's really 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:29.759 this misguided belief in a higher cause that also contributes 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:33.920 to atrocity. It's very easy to get this idea that, oh, 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.239 you know that those are just monstrous people. You know, 0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:38.200 we have this idea in pop culture that these the 0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:43.279 Nazis are like cartoonish monsters. They are monstrous, but they 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:44.280 are monstrous people. 0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:45.680 You know. 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.439 They are, at the end of the day, people who 0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:52.480 do evil with the belief that they're doing good. It's 0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:54.960 a very extent. I know that there were some who 0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:58.720 you know, recanted or who knew what they were doing wrong, 0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:01.440 but they had other pressures that were pushing them in 0:38:01.440 --> 0:38:05.200 a direction. Right. There are many explanations we will behavior 0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:07.440 and all sorts of situations, but a lot of the 0:38:07.440 --> 0:38:11.000 people they thought that they were contributing to the right thing. 0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:13.799 It's not that they didn't care, but they were taught 0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:17.160 to care in the wrong direction. The bad guys don't 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:20.919 think that they're bad guys. And whether we're talking about 0:38:20.920 --> 0:38:24.600 the Nazis of the past or Designers of today, they 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:29.000 construct these elaborate narratives to frame themselves as the righteous ones. 0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:31.239 You know, as far as the Nazis are concerned, they 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:34.680 are purge in Germany of a serious threat to the 0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:37.600 well the in and the safety of their future and 0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:40.560 all that stuff. Right, Designers today, you ask them, even 0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:43.440 though they're pariahs of the world at this point, you 0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:46.200 ask them why they believe that this must continue, and 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:48.440 they will say you know, we have to defend ourselves, 0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:50.720 we have a right to defend ourselves. YadA, YadA, YadA. 0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:55.279 There are true believers within these groups, you know, who 0:38:55.440 --> 0:38:58.280 are able to commit some of the worst acts, committed 0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:02.640 ideologues who host of their trustees, who express no remortes, 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:05.319 who take pride in their role, and people reach that 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:10.160 point of ideology through a process of radicalization. You know, 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:13.080 we look at the ten stages of genocide, I think 0:39:13.200 --> 0:39:15.399 is the framework people have used before to point out 0:39:15.440 --> 0:39:19.560 how a segment of a population can become a target 0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:22.399 of genocide. It's not like one day you wake up 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:24.840 and it's just like, oh, we're going to genestid this 0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:27.160 group of people. It's a process. 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:27.759 You know. 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:31.280 First you start off with classification. You create a separate 0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:35.440 group of people, separate category of poison. You make them 0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:39.080 signify themselves in some way, carry id cards or some 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:43.319 kind of insignia on their clothing or whatever. They begin 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:46.839 to face discrimination or some kind the discrimination, you know, 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:50.840 is ramped up through dehumanizing language. You compare them to vement, 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:53.759 to rodance disease. And that's just the thing, and we're 0:39:53.760 --> 0:39:56.160 going to get to that. But part of how you 0:39:56.320 --> 0:40:01.400 get people who would otherwise be here or compassionate about 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:06.440 their fellow human is through distance. Right, So the people 0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:10.560 who who are most of bloodthirsty tend to be very 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.759 far from the front lines. You know, people who are 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:17.080 demanding that World War One continue, for example, they were 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:21.000 very far from the actual fighting versus at the actual 0:40:21.040 --> 0:40:24.680 front lines of World War One. You had soldiers playing 0:40:24.680 --> 0:40:29.799 football together during Christmas. That's a separate story. But you 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:32.919 create distance, You either create physical distance or you create 0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.800 psychological distance. And dehumanization is one of the ways you 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:39.560 create psychological distance. You distance people from seeing their fellow 0:40:39.600 --> 0:40:43.200 human being as a human being. Segregation is another way 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:46.600 of creating that distance, which then lends itself to the humanization. 0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:50.680 Comparing people to women too, animals, anything other than human 0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:53.480 as another step in the humanization and can people to 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:57.440 separate themselves from those people. And then they create specific groups. 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:00.600 The next stage to create specific groups and organization to 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:05.719 enforce discriminatory policies. You further broadcast operate the propaganda to 0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:09.680 polarize population. And then we'll step seven, eight, nine, and 0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:14.440 ten go from actually preparing the removal relocation of people 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:19.840 to the persecution, the extermination of the group and finally 0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:24.319 the denial that such a crime ever could So that 0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:29.160 process it can take years, it can take decades, but 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:33.200 it's something that can turn even the most regular Polson 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:37.520 into virulent proponent of Rhanna side if they are not 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:43.400 fastidious in their opposition to any such language, especially in 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:47.080 the early stages, because they get fed the steady stream 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:50.200 propaganda of all the actions are justified, their loyalty to 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:53.480 their inn group becomes tested by their willingness to engage 0:41:53.760 --> 0:41:56.359 in those harmful actions. The still with that group will 0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:58.319 do whatever their tool is good, even if it leads 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:02.520 to other people being hood and it just creates an evil, 0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:05.319 but it's an ordinary evil. It's an evil that is 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:07.840 convinced that it's a virtue. It is wrapped up in 0:42:07.880 --> 0:42:12.680 ideology and social conformity because you know, humans are social 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.560 creatures and it drives us to cooperate. But that sociality 0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:20.160 can be narrowed down to test our in group. And 0:42:20.200 --> 0:42:23.880 that's where Breakman actually gets into an interesting point about empathy, 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:26.520 right because we tend to see empathy as a positive thing, 0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:29.799 and it can be, but as Bregman notes, drawn from 0:42:29.920 --> 0:42:35.759 psychologists Paul Bloom's work, empathy can also make us partial, irrational, 0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:38.960 and even cruel, because it can narrow our focus to 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:42.919 those people who are like us and ignore others. That's 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:45.640 why soldiers can fight and kill other people because they 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:48.680 feel empathy for their in group, their homeland citizens, or 0:42:48.719 --> 0:42:52.560 their comrades and arms. Their loyalty and affection for the 0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:56.160 people they care about supersedes the lives of the people 0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:59.279 that they don't care about. Now, of course, I want 0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:01.440 to look at systems, so we're talking about this because 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:04.439 I don't think that this hijacking of empathy is inevitable. 0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:09.480 You know, nationalism, propaganda, these things play a role in 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:12.839 how people end up being separated in this way, and 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:15.839 it's in groups and our groups. But you know, there 0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:18.880 is also indications that in group and our group separation 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:21.799 can occur even in the absence of a stake, So 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:24.319 it is something we have to be continuously vigilant of. 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:40.160 Another aspect of as a systemic analysis or approach is 0:43:40.840 --> 0:43:45.640 looking at how our position within society also shapes how 0:43:45.800 --> 0:43:48.160 we operate, how we treat people, how we think, and 0:43:48.239 --> 0:43:52.879 how we act. Bragmant cites neuroscience research that demonstrates how 0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:58.719 authority literally changes how we think. Powerful people become less empathetic, 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:03.080 and I'm more to see others as tools rather than 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:07.279 independent people. You know this is not new information, per see. 0:44:07.280 --> 0:44:10.120 You know the enviolence that powerful people are in both 0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:13.000 shapes them and are shaped by them, they say, and 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:16.560 has long gone that power corrupts and absolute power croups 0:44:16.560 --> 0:44:22.160 absolutely and spaces like Silicon Valley, like Wall streets, like Washington, DC, 0:44:22.600 --> 0:44:26.560 like corporate boardrooms and all the other upper echelons of government. 0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:30.080 They divorce rulers and authorities from ordinary people, their insular 0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:33.640 spaces that keep them from being challenged or being grounded 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:36.760 by the impact of their actions and others, so powerful 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:39.880 people don't have to care. And I think such hierarchies 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:43.840 are attractive to people who already are inclined to do bad, 0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:47.280 even if they believe that they're doing good. The authoritarians, 0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:50.400 the supremacists, the abusers, They are attracted to those positions. 0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:54.239 But even good intention people could lose themselves in authority too, 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.359 because authorities as a whole existed in this bubble that 0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:02.319 rewards their worst instincts. Sheep in the system around their 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:06.920 worst instincts, around distrust, selfishness, exploitation, and so on, to 0:45:07.000 --> 0:45:10.640 reward themselves and their patterns of behavior, and thus, through 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:14.400 the social more seaway effect, people end up filling that 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:16.240 expectation created by the system. 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:19.680 I guess my only comment here is that these systems 0:45:19.680 --> 0:45:22.160 are not just exclusive to like state power or like 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:27.520 corporate authority. These same mechanisms reproduce themselves in all sorts 0:45:27.520 --> 0:45:31.480 of social arrangements, including like radical politics, and frankly especially 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:33.920 radical politics. You can see it's a lot with groups, 0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:38.800 whether they're communists, whether they're anarchists, whether they're I don't know. 0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:44.239 Social democrats probably have this problem, but no specifically like 0:45:44.280 --> 0:45:48.440 in anarchist scenes, you see this happen constantly. It is 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:52.560 almost funny how how much these things just get natively recreated, 0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:55.800 and like in group out group in amics are always 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:57.879 are always a big issue. I mean, like you can 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:03.280 also point to the book Cultish, which explains how American 0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:08.680 culture is pretty defined by like cult like tendencies, not 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:11.439 saying that every single group is a cult, but cult 0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:14.479 dynamics play into a large part of everyday American life, 0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:18.600 and that's both good and bad. Sometimes being in a 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:21.279 cult is fun until it's not very fun. So these 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:25.120 dynamics themselves are not necessarily you know, bad, but there's 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:27.160 something to be like mindful of. 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:32.960 Yeah, exactly, So in being mindful of it, you know, 0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:35.160 that's an aspect of it. You know, we have to 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:42.560 find solutions to this academic of badness, of behaviors being 0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:46.880 reinforced by these systems that are cause harm to people 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:50.200 and harm to the world. And so what I always 0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:55.080 advocate for and we's big and small. I wouldn't call 0:46:55.120 --> 0:46:58.160 it the one solution to everything, but it's it does 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:02.560 encompass a lot, but it's just understanding and taking on 0:47:02.600 --> 0:47:07.760 a dynamic social revolutionary approach to change, you know, from 0:47:08.200 --> 0:47:12.560 the effort to do to confront the existence system to 0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:15.040 stand up against it, but it's also the things that 0:47:15.080 --> 0:47:18.440 you do to put forward an alternative, to put forward 0:47:18.480 --> 0:47:23.080 and to practice alternatives. So one of the things that 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:27.160 we can do is to create what you know, perpetuate 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:32.600 a positive and trusting take on human decen see, you know, 0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:35.960 to create that social placeboy effect that can shape how 0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:39.000 people treat each other for the better, but that can 0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:41.040 be boiled down to just be nicer to each other. 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:44.440 So there's more we've done than that. Of course, on 0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:47.080 the systems front, we also to change how we educate 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:51.040 each other in radical spaces and also in terms of 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:55.000 how we raise children. We have to organize, you know, 0:47:55.360 --> 0:48:02.560 alternative economic systems and alternative social arrangements that get us 0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:07.320 in the habit of trust, of trust and people's freedom, 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:14.600 of practicing freedom, and also of emphasizing greater intrinsic motivation 0:48:14.880 --> 0:48:16.960 in people as well. You know, a lot of our 0:48:17.000 --> 0:48:21.359 society is built around control and mechanisms of control through 0:48:21.480 --> 0:48:26.000 extrinsic forms of motivation, you know, like punishments and prisons 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:29.800 and grades and bonuses and wages, all the different things 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:32.719 that are meant to keep us going here now. But 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:36.040 I think a system that more leans into intrinsic motivation 0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:39.040 is something that we should be working toward. You know, 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:42.040 that people do things so they're in SAE for reasons 0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:44.600 that we are driven by. That I think is far 0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:48.520 more sustainable long term and more fulfilling long term than 0:48:49.239 --> 0:48:52.920 continuing to be stuck with the punishments and rewards that 0:48:53.280 --> 0:48:56.560 come from outside. Yes, we have to develop a revolutionary 0:48:56.560 --> 0:49:01.560 consciousness that is also very much grounded in you know, 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:04.640 people's intrinsic motivation to have their needs mets, to pursue 0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:08.520 their interests to care for others. And that is why 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:10.759 I think we'll sy tea in for as long term, 0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:15.279 because you can create all these bonuses and incentives externally, 0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:19.359 but I don't think it's something that will last. There are, 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:23.000 you know, experiments in earth with a greater emphasis on 0:49:23.080 --> 0:49:27.600 intrinsic motivation, not even necessarily radical experiments by see. But 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:31.400 Bregman actually looks at examples of schools that don't have 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:35.400 grades or fixed curriculums, and that companies that don't have managers, 0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:38.560 that are run entirely by employees. I mean, anarchists have 0:49:38.600 --> 0:49:41.720 been known about these, but he emphasizes that the people 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:45.319 in these environments thrive because they've been trusted to direct themselves. 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:47.960 They can bring off the best in themselves because they've 0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:51.160 been given the room to do so, you know. And 0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:55.080 spaces like free schools and maker spaces and cooperatives they 0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:58.920 give us the room to develop our cooperation and creativity. 0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:01.000 And of course the system is are going to stand 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:05.160 by as these transformations take place. It might tolerate or 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:08.879 even celebrate some like the examples that Bregmann had looked at, 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:11.600 but those are always going to be treated as exceptions. 0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:13.480 And the second, he tried to make them the norm. 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:17.120 I think you're going to face some real challenges because 0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:20.080 ordinary people one of these things, but the rulers don't. 0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:23.000 It's like the example that I had brought up earlier. 0:50:23.640 --> 0:50:27.239 You know, the famous nineteen fourteen Christmas Truce during World 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:31.400 War One, where British and Jeman soldiers put down their guns, 0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:35.399 they sang songs, they played football, but eventually the high 0:50:35.480 --> 0:50:39.239 command crack down these truces. The fratnization of people who 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:41.520 are different from each other was a threat to the 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:45.759 war machine because these systems are invested in maintaining hostility 0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:49.560 and division, and so we have to consciously and openly 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:54.400 stand up against hostility and division to build systems that 0:50:54.480 --> 0:50:57.120 bring out the best in people. I don't think that 0:50:57.200 --> 0:51:01.160 a hopeful view of human nature should be seen as utopian. 0:51:01.360 --> 0:51:05.480 As I said earlier, is realistic. Cynicism is not realism. 0:51:05.480 --> 0:51:08.719 They're not the same thing. Having hope is not being 0:51:08.760 --> 0:51:12.279 that you are completely deluded of the dark side or 0:51:12.360 --> 0:51:16.719 dark aspects of humanity and humanity's possibilities. But it means 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:19.640 that you don't limit yourself to that outcome, that you 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:23.840 challenge that narrative, and that you seek to do better 0:51:23.880 --> 0:51:27.160 and to create something better, and that's really what I 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:30.080 care about, and that's all I have to share, All 0:51:30.120 --> 0:51:31.960 power to all the people this. 0:51:54.920 --> 0:51:56.600 Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. 0:51:56.640 --> 0:52:02.600 It's me James today and I'm joined by georgeen Jedmai from. 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:04.880 Hengl, this human rights organization. 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:08.280 Also a journalist who's worked for the Curdish Peace Institute 0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:10.479 who we've had on the show before, who I've also 0:52:10.560 --> 0:52:13.440 worked with, and the founder of the Kurtis Dan People's 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:15.520 page on Instagram. 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:18.520 Welcome to the show. Thanks, thanks for joining us. 0:52:18.880 --> 0:52:21.360 Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm so glad 0:52:21.440 --> 0:52:22.560 to be here today with you. 0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:25.359 Yeah, of course, And what we're going to talk about 0:52:25.400 --> 0:52:30.600 today is Rogia lat or Eastern Kurdistan, right, and how 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:34.800 this figures into I guess what's happening currently in Iran, 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:38.279 what has been happening in Iran, And like, I think 0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:42.040 it's really important to give a little more explanation and 0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:46.440 background on particularly like the different ethnic groups in Iran 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:50.680 than people generally get when they consume legacy media here. 0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:53.640 Yeah, so if I want to talk about this, like 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:55.920 we need to talk about the history or at least 0:52:55.960 --> 0:52:59.440 one hundred and twenty one hundred and fifty years, so 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:03.680 a lot. But today's structure of what we know as 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:11.919 Iran is made up of several different ethnic groups from Persians, Turks, 0:53:12.360 --> 0:53:18.319 I mean, Azerbaijani Turks, Turkummands Herds, Baluchi's, Ahwazi, Arabs, and 0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:22.600 so many others. But I would say the dominant population, 0:53:22.760 --> 0:53:27.680 the dominant ethnic group, and the dominant culture and language 0:53:27.800 --> 0:53:31.880 is definitely Persians. Yeah, And if I want to be 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:37.799 more clear, this dominant ethnic group has been exploding and 0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:43.840 colonizing and destroying all the lands and the communities and 0:53:43.920 --> 0:53:51.799 societies from non Persian regions including Kurdistan, Baluchistan, Azerbaijan, Ahwas 0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:56.920 and many other regions and this geographical region called Iran. 0:53:57.800 --> 0:54:04.359 And this mainly started during the former monarchy Pahlavis, and 0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:10.400 it was intensified after the nineteen seventy nine Islamic Revolution 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:14.960 led by ayato O la Romeni, and as usual, the 0:54:15.120 --> 0:54:19.000 Kurdish people were the first to stand against this newly 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:24.400 established regime. In nineteen seventy nine, a few months after 0:54:24.480 --> 0:54:28.920 the so called revolution, the Kurds were demanding their rights, 0:54:29.040 --> 0:54:33.879 specifically the right to self determination and also federalism, which 0:54:34.120 --> 0:54:38.520 was responded by a heavy hit by heavy attacks and 0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:43.160 under the jihad order of Ayatolla Romeni, which led to 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:46.879 the massacre of tens of thousands of civilians and destructions 0:54:46.920 --> 0:54:52.200 of several hundred villages and massive executions of Kurdish people 0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:56.799 across the what we know as Eastern Kurdistan or Rochalad. 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:02.400 And following that the oppression continued, and also it was 0:55:02.600 --> 0:55:06.960 done against other ethnic groups, specifically Baluchi's and also the 0:55:06.960 --> 0:55:12.000 Awazi Arabs and also the Azerbaijani Turks, but in Kurdistan 0:55:12.000 --> 0:55:16.320 and Baluchistan it has always been more intense and more brutal. 0:55:17.120 --> 0:55:21.880 And then in late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties 0:55:22.000 --> 0:55:26.760 they killed two of the Kurdish leaders, doctor Abdur Rahman 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:31.200 Kazenlou and doctor shut Off Candy in Europe during some 0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:36.360 negotiations and thus ended up in Kurt being in a 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:41.040 worse situation. And then until around early two thousands, I 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:45.040 think around two thousand and four or three, the PKK 0:55:45.360 --> 0:55:50.239 built or established its wing in Roschalat known as the 0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:55.320 Free Kurdistan Party or Pajakh sorry Free Kurdistan Live Party 0:55:55.680 --> 0:56:00.080 in Roschalat, and then but unfortunately this party was not 0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:05.279 not really as strong as the KDPI or Comala that 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:08.560 were already in the fight with the Iranian states. Since 0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:13.239 nineteen forty six and so on, this oppression has been 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:17.920 just intensifying by mass execution of Kurdish people, the mass 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:23.839 execution of the political prisoners and activists, and imprisonment of 0:56:24.040 --> 0:56:28.239 the different people in the Kurdish society, from language teachers 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:34.840 to environmental activists to children, women, anyone, and this whole 0:56:35.320 --> 0:56:40.280 impression that I've been mentioning about, like that that's happening 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:46.040 in East Kurdistan. It has also resulted in a humanitarian 0:56:46.600 --> 0:56:51.480 phenomenon called kulbarry. Kulbart's are a group of people that 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:56.040 are extremely underprivileged. They have no access to anything, so 0:56:56.080 --> 0:56:59.680 they are somehow forced to go into some sort of 0:56:59.719 --> 0:57:03.320 war that they have to carry goods between the borders 0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:07.160 of East Kurdistan and South Kurdistan or North Kurdistan specifically 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:10.520 between Iraq, Iran and Turkey. And every year we have 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:14.160 numbers in our organizations you can check. We have a 0:57:14.280 --> 0:57:19.160 specific statistics section for these coal wars. Every year, hundreds 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:22.960 of them get killed, just for example, in since the 0:57:22.960 --> 0:57:26.280 beginning of twenty twenty five, twenty two of them have 0:57:26.320 --> 0:57:30.200 been killed and injured. And among these people there are children, women, 0:57:30.600 --> 0:57:35.040 old people. So this is also another form of oppression 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:37.480 that this regime has been using. Any start people, because 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:41.040 this is actually one of the biggest forms of oppression, 0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:43.720 if I want to talk about it. There are over 0:57:43.840 --> 0:57:46.760 one hundred and fifty thousand cod bars in East Kurdistan 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:51.000 that are somehow forced into this type of work because 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:53.840 they have no other means of income and the government, 0:57:54.640 --> 0:57:58.720 the reigning government actually like limitits all the if I 0:57:58.760 --> 0:58:02.320 want to call it a colonny developments in East Kurdistan. 0:58:03.120 --> 0:58:05.880 This has been going on for decades. And then we 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:10.800 come to twenty nineteen again there was another so I 0:58:10.840 --> 0:58:13.920 want to call it uprising or master tests across Iran 0:58:14.280 --> 0:58:18.000 when the regime killed over one five hundred people. I 0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:21.120 mean before that, there were also tests almost every year, 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:23.080 but that was like one of the biggest one. It 0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:27.240 was in November twenty nineteen and they caught down the 0:58:27.280 --> 0:58:30.320 internet for twelve days. I remember I was at the 0:58:30.400 --> 0:58:34.479 university at that time. And then they killed one thy 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:38.840 five hundred people, specifically so many people in Kurdistan. They 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:42.320 even throw that kills people into like lakes and rivers, 0:58:42.320 --> 0:58:45.760 and then after like months and days people found the 0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:49.880 bodies like in the nature jeez. And then we come 0:58:50.000 --> 0:58:54.360 to twenty twenty two and in September when they the 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:58.320 morality police killed Gina Amini, the Kurdish woman who was 0:58:59.000 --> 0:59:03.400 apparently not ware caring a proper hijab or the Islamic 0:59:03.680 --> 0:59:06.360 oh or whatever you want to call it yea. She 0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:10.800 was killed by the Iranian morality police in Tehran, which 0:59:10.920 --> 0:59:14.640 led to the as we know it. I don't know 0:59:14.640 --> 0:59:17.240 if we can call it a revolution or uprising or 0:59:17.480 --> 0:59:22.080 just mass tests called Jinjiana Zadi or women life freedom movement. 0:59:22.800 --> 0:59:28.080 And this also again because it was inspired by Kurtz 0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:32.760 the first victim was occurred again. Obviously, it started in 0:59:32.840 --> 0:59:37.640 Kurdistan and it spread so fast. Just in a few days, 0:59:37.640 --> 0:59:42.080 the entire Kurdish cities were testing, and then it was 0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:45.760 followed by other Iranian cities like Tehran. She was but 0:59:45.880 --> 0:59:49.320 it was not as intense as in Kurdistan. I think 0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:53.480 it was three days after her death. The Kurdish parties 0:59:53.680 --> 0:59:57.640 Kadpi and Komala and some others that are not very 0:59:57.680 --> 1:00:01.960 well known like pak and also Pajakh or the Free 1:00:01.960 --> 1:00:08.320 Life Kurdistan Party. They announced a general strike across Kurdistan 1:00:08.400 --> 1:00:12.080 and they called on people to close down everything and 1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:15.000 go on a full lockdown to protest the killing of 1:00:15.040 --> 1:00:19.320 Gina Amini, which was responded by I think over one 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:24.440 hundred missiles or something from the IRGC and the Iranian 1:00:24.440 --> 1:00:28.600 regime and it killed I think eighteen if I'm not wrong, 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:32.920 but it killed several people in the camps belonging to 1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:37.080 these parties in today's Iraqi Kurdistan or as we call 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:40.520 it South Kurdistan. There were also like family members of 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:45.760 the Kurdish politicians and Kurdish Pishmarga that were in those 1:00:46.000 --> 1:00:49.480 refugee camps that are also supported by the UN. They 1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:53.400 were killed there, and then the protests just got intensified, 1:00:54.200 --> 1:00:57.320 and I was also there. We were reporting every day 1:00:57.320 --> 1:01:01.040 about all the things that were happening. Also, the Baluch 1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:05.400 people joined the protests, and at the same time of 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:09.440 those days, a fifteen years old Baluchi girl was raped 1:01:09.440 --> 1:01:13.680 and killed by an IRGC commander or member in Baluchistan, 1:01:13.680 --> 1:01:17.240 and people also protested that. And there was a Friday 1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:21.000 which is known as the Bloody Friday of Zahidan people 1:01:21.320 --> 1:01:24.200 in Baluchistan. They went to a big mosque in the 1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:28.160 city of Zahidan and they were doing their Friday prayers 1:01:28.240 --> 1:01:32.880 as Mauslims, and then they started protesting and this was 1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:37.560 responded by the Iranian regime forces and over one hundred 1:01:37.560 --> 1:01:41.600 people were massacred on that day, which also led to 1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:47.560 mass execution of more political and just random prisoners in Baluchistan. 1:01:48.280 --> 1:01:51.160 And then the protests just went on and there was 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:56.760 a really heavy repression so far, I think over maybe 1:01:56.840 --> 1:02:00.320 between five hundred to six hundred people were killed. These 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:03.520 are like the official ones, and also several other of 1:02:03.560 --> 1:02:08.600 these protesters, specifically from Kurtistan, were executed. Some of them 1:02:08.600 --> 1:02:13.560 were executed in public to spread more fear among people, 1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:17.840 but people were not given up. And then it continued 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:21.560 until twenty twenty three until I think it was around 1:02:22.080 --> 1:02:24.919 maybe in March, I'm not really remembering the exact date, 1:02:24.960 --> 1:02:27.240 but it was also in twenty twenty three that they 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:32.000 started attacking schools, like girls' schools, with some sort of 1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:35.800 gases that nobody actually knows that what type of chemical 1:02:35.840 --> 1:02:38.840 gases they were using, and unfortunately we have them, like 1:02:38.920 --> 1:02:43.120 we've reported on. Then some school children, like some kids 1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:46.840 they were killed by these gases, and they were specifically 1:02:46.880 --> 1:02:50.800 targeting girls' schools because they are like separate. They don't 1:02:51.120 --> 1:02:54.720 they're not together in the union system integrate. Yeah, and 1:02:54.760 --> 1:02:59.240 then this went on and people were still protesting, but 1:02:59.640 --> 1:03:04.760 on unfortunately it somehow stopped. And if I want to 1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:09.400 analyze that and related to like to talk about the reasons. 1:03:09.960 --> 1:03:12.600 One of the main reasons I think also many other 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:16.320 political activists and analysts also agree on that that the 1:03:16.360 --> 1:03:20.960 opposition what as we know as the Iranian opposition, was 1:03:21.160 --> 1:03:25.920 not truly united. Yeah. There was a huge effort specifically 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:31.920 from the Kurdish parties like Comala and Abdullah Motadi. They 1:03:32.120 --> 1:03:36.560 tried to create some sort of collaboration with the so 1:03:36.680 --> 1:03:41.520 called Iranian oppositions, specifically the monarchists like the Pahlavis and 1:03:41.560 --> 1:03:45.760 some other groups. But unfortunately these groups, I mean it 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:50.240 was in the middle of an uprising, like a movement 1:03:50.320 --> 1:03:54.920 that hasn't been happening since maybe forty years. Instead of 1:03:55.360 --> 1:03:59.640 working together for a common goal like the Iranian opposition 1:03:59.680 --> 1:04:02.880 group specifically the Parlavis and also the other ones like 1:04:03.480 --> 1:04:06.640 if I want to say, like the mass and like 1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:10.200 all the people that work with her, instead of working 1:04:10.480 --> 1:04:15.720 towards a common goal. They started discriminating against minorities. They 1:04:15.800 --> 1:04:21.480 started ignoring and denying and also censoring the minorities, the 1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:25.440 same minorities that were the most active against the regime, 1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:31.800 that had the biggest number of sacrifices in the protests 1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:36.040 and also in prisons. They just started spreading their own 1:04:36.160 --> 1:04:39.400 typical nationalism. I mean, I would even call them ultra 1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:43.520 nationalistic sentiments. And for example, if I want to give 1:04:43.640 --> 1:04:47.360 like one of the biggest things that we always talk about, 1:04:47.760 --> 1:04:51.600 these people who are apparently against the regime, they have 1:04:51.760 --> 1:04:54.920 some red lines, and their main red line has always 1:04:54.960 --> 1:05:00.640 been the so called Iranian territorial integrity. So like the 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:05.880 these type of sentiments and discussions, it's somehow created like 1:05:05.960 --> 1:05:10.640 a lot of mistrust between the Kurdish groups, the Baluchi groups. 1:05:11.160 --> 1:05:14.480 Also like with Hawazi Arabs and Azerbaijani Turks and all 1:05:14.520 --> 1:05:19.880 these groups, they couldn't trust each other because the dominant group, 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:23.960 the Persians or the Iranians or those who identify as Iranians, 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:29.400 they ignored us, they ignored our suffering, they ignored our identity. 1:05:30.120 --> 1:05:34.440 They were just repeating what the regime has been saying 1:05:34.640 --> 1:05:39.760 since over forty years but in a different form. So 1:05:39.880 --> 1:05:43.280 this somehow created a lot of mistrust and also the 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:46.760 people inside, like I was there when that was happening, 1:05:46.800 --> 1:05:52.040 and I was working NonStop every day of recording, writing, texting, 1:05:52.160 --> 1:05:57.360 being on interviews. The people actually lost their hope because 1:05:57.440 --> 1:06:02.320 there was no united position, there was no united structure 1:06:02.440 --> 1:06:05.160 to say that, yeah, we're advocating for you. I mean, 1:06:05.200 --> 1:06:08.880 in the first few months it was really great. For example, 1:06:08.920 --> 1:06:12.800 here in Germany they had a very big demonstration and 1:06:12.880 --> 1:06:16.280 over eighty thousand people from all across Europe. They traveled 1:06:16.280 --> 1:06:20.440 to Berlin for that demonstration. It was great, and all 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:24.920 the groups from Iranians, Turks, Arabs, Balucci is like everybody 1:06:25.040 --> 1:06:29.840 was there. But unfortunately following that, the people like specifically 1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:33.440 who is of Palavi, the so called crown Prince of Iran, 1:06:33.680 --> 1:06:37.000 who is another like his story is like very also 1:06:37.120 --> 1:06:41.880 like crazy, yeah, he and his group and his circle, 1:06:41.960 --> 1:06:45.280 and also people like Massi al Najatte, And I would 1:06:45.320 --> 1:06:48.360 say all the celebrities because they are not truly they 1:06:48.360 --> 1:06:51.720 are not politicians. They have no political study they have 1:06:52.000 --> 1:06:55.520 they haven't done any specific political work. They are just 1:06:55.600 --> 1:06:59.800 celebrities like Nazai Bulnadi. She played in some movies. Yet 1:06:59.840 --> 1:07:02.800 she really great actress, but not a good politician, like 1:07:02.880 --> 1:07:07.600 these things that celebrities who truly don't understand or they 1:07:07.680 --> 1:07:12.120 don't want to understand what people inside Kurtistan, Iran and 1:07:12.320 --> 1:07:15.920 Baluchis don't want. They pretended to be our voices and 1:07:15.960 --> 1:07:19.720 they never listened to us. And then this just made 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:23.200 a lot of distraws and a lot of also hate 1:07:23.400 --> 1:07:27.439 between the people. Yeah, so that's why I can say 1:07:27.440 --> 1:07:31.840 that it just failed after that, and unfortunately many many 1:07:31.920 --> 1:07:35.120 of the people who were arrested during that time, they 1:07:35.120 --> 1:07:38.000 are still in jail, and just a few days ago 1:07:38.280 --> 1:07:42.160 five of them were sentenced to death and we made 1:07:42.160 --> 1:07:46.440 a report about them. So like every day did they 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:49.760 get sentenced to death? And I personally know many of 1:07:49.800 --> 1:07:53.040 these people who were injured, and they are now here 1:07:53.080 --> 1:07:55.920 in Germany. They were brought here but by some humanitaring 1:07:56.000 --> 1:07:58.880 with us. Some of them are my friends. So like, 1:07:59.240 --> 1:08:12.160 it just failed. At the same time, I also have 1:08:12.280 --> 1:08:14.040 to mention that one of the reasons that it also 1:08:14.120 --> 1:08:20.719 failed it was the regime's extensive propression. They militarized the 1:08:21.000 --> 1:08:26.440 entire cities, specifically in Kurdistan and Baluchistan for example. In Kurdistan, 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:30.440 they already have over two thousand military bases and checkpoints 1:08:30.800 --> 1:08:35.160 all over the Kurdistan region, and during that time, they 1:08:35.880 --> 1:08:39.920 had like tanks and military vehicles and the entrances, like 1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:43.280 in the gates of every city and also town they 1:08:43.280 --> 1:08:47.559 were checking out people like I personally get during these 1:08:47.600 --> 1:08:51.519 two years, I really didn't go out much, maybe once 1:08:51.560 --> 1:08:53.920 a week or once in attendees, just to I don't know, 1:08:54.000 --> 1:08:56.360 to go and eat something out, you know, like I 1:08:56.439 --> 1:08:59.360 was always home, Yeah, because I couldn't go out and 1:08:59.439 --> 1:09:02.920 because my work was important. And then they were just 1:09:03.120 --> 1:09:06.120 controlling people. They were arresting people, and even like from 1:09:06.160 --> 1:09:09.920 the stories that I have worked on before, these injured people. 1:09:10.000 --> 1:09:12.920 They also they were hiding in small villages and even 1:09:12.920 --> 1:09:16.759 in the mountains, but the regime forces were everywhere looking 1:09:16.760 --> 1:09:19.680 for these people and these activists. So it was like 1:09:19.720 --> 1:09:25.120 a holy military lockdown in the region. And there are 1:09:25.120 --> 1:09:27.160 many crazy stories. I don't know if you have time 1:09:27.280 --> 1:09:32.600 enough time to talk about, like some different and specific 1:09:32.680 --> 1:09:35.479 things that happened, and it was really scary at that time. 1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:37.600 Yeah, I would like you to share that with us, 1:09:37.720 --> 1:09:41.120 because I think one thing people don't understand is that 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:45.479 the Iranian regime has a colossal capacity. 1:09:44.960 --> 1:09:46.800 For violence against the certain citizens. 1:09:47.280 --> 1:09:49.719 I think if we talk about like some specific instances 1:09:49.720 --> 1:09:52.360 and then maybe we can talk about recently that has 1:09:52.400 --> 1:09:55.720 been a bombing campaign against some nuclear facilities and some 1:09:55.800 --> 1:09:59.160 IIGC commanders, and like I think if you start with 1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:03.680 your anecdote about what happened during this last uprising, that 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:07.200 will help people understand why, like the consequence of this 1:10:07.280 --> 1:10:10.320 bombing campaign are not good for people who want to 1:10:10.360 --> 1:10:14.240 have freedom in Iran, right, people inside the country at least. So, yeah, 1:10:14.640 --> 1:10:17.560 tell us some things about that capacity for repression. 1:10:17.920 --> 1:10:20.680 Yeah, So, like the bombing happened, and we saw, we 1:10:20.760 --> 1:10:24.519 all saw how crazy and how insane, like it was 1:10:24.560 --> 1:10:27.839 like movies. I couldn't believe my eyes when it happened. 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:32.080 It was really crazy. And yeah, that was like the 1:10:32.120 --> 1:10:36.479 war between two brutal states, Israel and Iran, who both 1:10:36.960 --> 1:10:42.679 have no respect for dignity of humans. Nothing, absolutely. Yeah, 1:10:43.040 --> 1:10:46.240 the first thing that happened it was that, Yeah, they 1:10:46.479 --> 1:10:50.200 targeted I think so far as far as I remember 1:10:50.240 --> 1:10:55.160 from our statistics, over three hundred and fifty or around 1:10:55.200 --> 1:11:00.320 that were the IRGC commanders or the officials from the 1:11:00.400 --> 1:11:04.840 nuclear programs than like really the judges who have sentenced 1:11:04.840 --> 1:11:08.760 thousands of people to death, Like, the targeted people were 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:11.960 mainly these type of people, and also there were also 1:11:12.000 --> 1:11:17.120 some civilians I think maybe around eighty or nineties civilians 1:11:17.200 --> 1:11:20.439 whom some of them were actually like family members of 1:11:20.479 --> 1:11:25.200 these IERGC members, and also some children. And also there 1:11:25.280 --> 1:11:30.040 was a lot of destruction, specifically in Tehran, many buildings, 1:11:30.080 --> 1:11:31.759 including the Evan prison. 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:35.520 Yeah it'shere, they hit the prison, the. 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:39.000 Center of the Iranian broadcast and all these places were 1:11:39.040 --> 1:11:43.880 targeted and many officials were killed, also civilians. But the 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:51.120 Iranian regime's response to that was not fully against Israel, 1:11:51.240 --> 1:11:58.120 who was bombing Iranian ier GC bases. In the first days, 1:11:58.160 --> 1:12:03.760 they started attacking civilians. They started arresting every I don't know, 1:12:03.800 --> 1:12:07.599 some random people and so far I think last time 1:12:07.800 --> 1:12:13.040 we checked hundreds of people across specifically in Kurdistan they 1:12:13.040 --> 1:12:18.120 were arrested, and some others were already like in these days, 1:12:18.120 --> 1:12:23.400 they got executed because they were accused of spinach for 1:12:23.600 --> 1:12:28.040 Israel or working for Israel. Just a few weeks ago, 1:12:28.120 --> 1:12:32.000 I think five or four or maybe three, I don't 1:12:32.040 --> 1:12:36.120 recall the numbers right now. But some Kurdish political prisoners 1:12:36.120 --> 1:12:38.800 who were accused of working for Israel were executed in 1:12:39.520 --> 1:12:44.040 my hometown Formia in ist Kordistan, and then so many 1:12:44.080 --> 1:12:48.320 others were also arrested, and then I think some others 1:12:48.320 --> 1:12:51.800 were also tortured. At least I remember one case which 1:12:51.840 --> 1:12:56.120 we worked on it. There was one case that was 1:12:56.320 --> 1:12:59.880 tortured to death because he was accused of working for 1:13:00.080 --> 1:13:03.320 Israel and things like that. This was like one of 1:13:03.400 --> 1:13:07.200 the responses that the Iranian regime started doing. And one 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:10.440 of the things that this regime did in the first days, 1:13:11.240 --> 1:13:15.439 it was that they took lots of military vehicles and 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:19.640 like I don't know, equipments inside schools. For example, in 1:13:19.680 --> 1:13:24.000 the city of Saradash it's a really amazing beautiful Kurdish 1:13:24.040 --> 1:13:27.920 city on top of some mountains. It's beautiful. There's a 1:13:28.000 --> 1:13:31.479 high school in the city center, exactly in the city center, 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:35.439 and they took lots of military equipment and stuff inside 1:13:35.439 --> 1:13:38.840 the school and they threatened the school manager, if you 1:13:38.920 --> 1:13:41.960 don't give us the key right now, we will arrest you. 1:13:42.040 --> 1:13:44.479 We will do this and that. And they also did 1:13:44.520 --> 1:13:47.680 that in the city of Kermanshah. They also did that 1:13:47.760 --> 1:13:51.320 in the I remember because I worked under report. It 1:13:51.360 --> 1:13:55.200 was in the neighbor in the neighborhoodhood called the Zilabad 1:13:55.800 --> 1:13:59.040 and they took some military equipments next to a hospital 1:13:59.080 --> 1:14:02.400 which was also born and the hospital was damaged and 1:14:02.520 --> 1:14:04.880 some people were injured. That was one of the things 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:07.760 that the regime did. And at the same time, I 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:10.120 don't know if you know about this, but in Iran 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:14.960 the military service is compulsory, like Israel, like many like Switzerland, 1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:18.960 like many countries, but in Iran it's torture. It's some 1:14:19.000 --> 1:14:24.799 sort of repression against young men. So across Kurtistan, for example, 1:14:24.880 --> 1:14:27.960 in a military base in my hometown in Urma, it's 1:14:27.960 --> 1:14:31.880 called Almahdi. It's a very big military base. I know 1:14:32.000 --> 1:14:36.120 that some soldiers who are like civilians, but they are 1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:40.839 forced into it. They're like teenagers, I don't know, nineteen 1:14:40.960 --> 1:14:43.400 twenty or twenty one, like you were. 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:46.679 Young guys, yeah, very young that really don't want. 1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:48.360 To be there, but they are forced to. They were 1:14:48.439 --> 1:14:53.280 saying that their commanders threatened, if you leave the military base, 1:14:53.720 --> 1:14:56.880 we will arrest you, we will torture you, and we 1:14:56.920 --> 1:15:02.600 will execute you for betraying for like I don't know, 1:15:02.680 --> 1:15:06.960 for training your country or things like that, or working 1:15:07.000 --> 1:15:09.599 for Israel. This was like one of one of the 1:15:09.680 --> 1:15:13.519 concerns that many families had before on those days, because 1:15:13.520 --> 1:15:17.960 I talked with some people, like our neighbor's son was 1:15:18.600 --> 1:15:22.320 also in a military base. He's like nineteen. Yeah, they 1:15:22.320 --> 1:15:26.559 were putting lots of pressure on civilians while ignoring that 1:15:26.600 --> 1:15:29.559 what Israel is doing every day. They were bombing all 1:15:29.600 --> 1:15:32.800 the military bases, I don't know places, and like they 1:15:32.800 --> 1:15:37.360 were even bombing places that nobody even knew that they existed. 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:41.439 But their focus was, like the regime's focus was on 1:15:41.520 --> 1:15:45.880 civilians who were just scared, who were just trying to 1:15:45.920 --> 1:15:49.240 protect their families. Yeah, and this was just like what 1:15:49.400 --> 1:15:54.240 they started doing. And yeah, I mean it's it's still 1:15:54.280 --> 1:15:57.479 going It still is going on, and they're arresting people 1:15:57.680 --> 1:16:01.280 all the time, and as usual, the majority of the 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:04.719 focus and repression is again happening in Curtis on against 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:06.519 Kurdish people. Yeah. 1:16:06.600 --> 1:16:09.120 I think it's very important people understand like that Iran 1:16:09.280 --> 1:16:12.360 is not like an ethno state, well it is an 1:16:12.400 --> 1:16:15.800 ethno state, that that that is not ethnically monolithic like 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:19.519 the territory of Iran and the Persian ethno state do 1:16:19.600 --> 1:16:23.400 not necessarily like line up. I think people will also 1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:27.080 be very confused about like when we hear quote unquote 1:16:27.160 --> 1:16:31.439 Iranian opposition in this country, right, right, it's often like 1:16:31.520 --> 1:16:33.280 I think there's this knee jack. Oh that's good, right, 1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:35.160 these are people who are opposed to this regime which 1:16:35.200 --> 1:16:37.840 is brutally cracking down on people. But often then, as 1:16:37.880 --> 1:16:41.080 you say, it's associated with like monarchists for the most part. 1:16:41.680 --> 1:16:46.360 And then we have these various like anything in Kurdistan, right, 1:16:46.400 --> 1:16:49.000 like it's an alphabet suit, but like there is like 1:16:49.240 --> 1:16:52.640 there are seventy five different like initial groups of initials. 1:16:53.040 --> 1:16:55.639 Can you explain who some of these actors are? Right? 1:16:55.680 --> 1:16:58.120 We have on we have the Iranian monarchists, we have 1:16:58.240 --> 1:17:02.240 the KDP, I have all these different groups pagiacht like 1:17:02.320 --> 1:17:05.479 you say, the KCK group. Can you explain some of 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:07.320 these people are the people say they understand? 1:17:07.920 --> 1:17:11.000 Yeah, if I want to talk about Kurtisan, I would 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:15.479 go to the first Mother and Kurdish Party called KDPI, 1:17:15.520 --> 1:17:19.599 which was founded in nineteen forty five and it was 1:17:19.640 --> 1:17:25.240 the founder of the Kurdistan Republic. And also then there's 1:17:25.479 --> 1:17:28.920 the Koma Law Party, which is also like a socialist 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:34.120 communist Leftist Party which also has several branches, but they're 1:17:34.160 --> 1:17:38.160 all basically the same. And also there are other parties 1:17:38.240 --> 1:17:42.160 like pak yeah, yeah, the Freedom Party of Kurdistan, and 1:17:42.200 --> 1:17:45.680 also we have Pajaq the Free Life Kurdistan Party or 1:17:46.080 --> 1:17:48.440 I don't know if it's that, it's the same in English. 1:17:48.240 --> 1:17:50.040 Yeah, Kaddistan Free Life Party. 1:17:50.160 --> 1:17:55.240 Yeah. These are the main political parties and actors in 1:17:55.479 --> 1:17:59.880 East Kurdistan. However, there are also like smaller parties like 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:05.240 Abbot and also some parties that are affiliated like they 1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:09.960 are like very small groups that are affiliated with for example, 1:18:10.000 --> 1:18:13.799 the Iranian Communist Party, which is not also really big. 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:18.520 But the main ones right now are Kdpi and Tomola, 1:18:19.200 --> 1:18:22.000 who both of them have like a long history of 1:18:22.200 --> 1:18:26.280 fighting against the regime and also against the monarchists the 1:18:26.320 --> 1:18:31.040 Pahlavi regime. They were i would say, really really active 1:18:31.360 --> 1:18:37.200 until like twenty twenty three. They played a very very 1:18:37.240 --> 1:18:42.480 important role in the revolution in like in Kurdiston specifically 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:47.320 because they were the ones who were announcing like strikes 1:18:47.439 --> 1:18:51.760 and they were working together and like organizing things and 1:18:51.880 --> 1:18:57.680 helping people out to resist. Obviously, there was no arm 1:18:58.520 --> 1:19:02.479 struggle at that time or conflicts because they said we're 1:19:02.479 --> 1:19:05.679 not going to fight because if we bring the fights 1:19:05.720 --> 1:19:09.519 and conflict inside Kurdistan, the regime will destroy the city 1:19:09.640 --> 1:19:14.080 with styles. This is exactly what they said at that time, 1:19:14.120 --> 1:19:17.640 because there was a demand from people that yeah, the 1:19:17.680 --> 1:19:21.240 Peshmarga forces should come in the cities and fight alongside 1:19:21.280 --> 1:19:23.360 with us, but they said no, if you do this, 1:19:23.439 --> 1:19:26.519 the regime will destroy the cities. These are the main 1:19:26.600 --> 1:19:31.760 forces in Kurdistan, and of course they have different ideologies. 1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:35.840 Pajak is like the PKK's wing, or if I want 1:19:35.880 --> 1:19:39.080 to be more official, it's a member of the KCK 1:19:39.320 --> 1:19:44.599 or Kjaks we'll say. And KDPI is like as I said, 1:19:44.920 --> 1:19:48.960 the history goes back to nineteen forty five and Comala 1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:53.040 in the early seventies and also Pak I'm not sure 1:19:53.080 --> 1:19:55.920 when it was founded, but it was also like it 1:19:55.960 --> 1:19:58.439 was founded one by one of the members of the 1:19:58.680 --> 1:20:01.880 KDPI who say as Dampana and they are more of 1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:06.920 a military I would say, well organized military group. That 1:20:07.040 --> 1:20:12.960 they also played a good role against the ISIS in 1:20:13.040 --> 1:20:19.640 twenty seventeen and eighteen, specifically in Kerkuk in South Kurdistan 1:20:19.720 --> 1:20:24.559 or Iraqi Kurdistan and about the Iran in a position 1:20:24.720 --> 1:20:28.720 if I want to say, yes, we have the monarchists, 1:20:29.160 --> 1:20:34.160 the Rizapah Leavi and his group. They have like a 1:20:34.200 --> 1:20:38.479 whole long list of parties. Basically they're all the same 1:20:38.520 --> 1:20:42.479 but they have different names, and they are all right wing, 1:20:43.240 --> 1:20:47.120 and they all focused on the territorial integrity of Iran. 1:20:47.600 --> 1:20:50.720 But they also pretend that they care also about democracy, 1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:53.799 but that's that's a lie. And then we have people 1:20:53.880 --> 1:20:58.920 like Massi Haleine Jot who is more of she's an 1:20:59.000 --> 1:21:03.920 activist and she's she's internationally known for her activism against 1:21:03.920 --> 1:21:08.560 the compulsory hy job, but she doesn't have any specific 1:21:09.360 --> 1:21:15.200 party or organizations. She's just an activist and a journalist obviously. 1:21:16.920 --> 1:21:20.360 And also there are other several people that work with her, 1:21:20.479 --> 1:21:24.000 like Nazani Bunyadi who also works with like Pa Lavis. 1:21:24.000 --> 1:21:26.240 And also there is another one who also played a 1:21:26.240 --> 1:21:30.280 big role. His name is Hamid Ismailiun. He is one 1:21:30.320 --> 1:21:34.360 of the members of the families of the people who 1:21:34.360 --> 1:21:37.879 were killed in that plane that was shot by missiles 1:21:37.920 --> 1:21:42.640 biology see in twenty twenty in Tehran. And again there 1:21:42.640 --> 1:21:46.720 were many Kurds inside that Ukrainian plane as well. This 1:21:46.920 --> 1:21:50.479 person was Smailun. He is one of the members of 1:21:50.840 --> 1:21:54.040 like he lost his entire family in that plane crash 1:21:54.240 --> 1:22:01.960 or attack. He organized many, many great and big demonstrations US, Canada, Australia, 1:22:01.960 --> 1:22:04.799 I think even in the US and specifically in Germany. 1:22:04.840 --> 1:22:08.120 The one in Berlin was the biggest. Also, he doesn't 1:22:08.160 --> 1:22:11.000 have a party, but he also somehow backed down after 1:22:11.680 --> 1:22:16.120 like what Alavis did, for example, like or the monarchists 1:22:16.160 --> 1:22:21.080 did with the whole opposition groups. There are also some 1:22:21.200 --> 1:22:26.680 leftist groups and individuals, but unfortunately they're not truly leftists. 1:22:26.840 --> 1:22:28.400 So I want to give you a name. There is 1:22:28.439 --> 1:22:31.840 a person called as Easy. He is also well known 1:22:31.920 --> 1:22:34.000 in the US. I don't know. He wrote some books 1:22:34.040 --> 1:22:38.000 and he works with really like international media. Just a 1:22:38.040 --> 1:22:42.400 few days ago he posted something that said we we 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:46.320 the leftists of Iran. We we are in love with 1:22:46.439 --> 1:22:49.720 our homeland and we care about our homeland and we 1:22:49.760 --> 1:22:54.320 don't He just posted something that was that was really nationalistic, 1:22:54.400 --> 1:22:59.599 like a typical Persian Iranian sentiment. That was that does 1:22:59.680 --> 1:23:02.320 that going on and it's got lots of criticism from 1:23:02.400 --> 1:23:06.640 different groups. And then we have the the Awazi Arabs. 1:23:06.880 --> 1:23:10.519 They also have some parties, but they are not really 1:23:10.920 --> 1:23:15.000 strong or active or well organized, like the Kurdish ones, 1:23:15.200 --> 1:23:18.160 the Turks the other by Johnny Turks. They also have 1:23:18.280 --> 1:23:23.920 some groups, but they're also not very active or organized. 1:23:24.200 --> 1:23:27.760 And many of these groups they are heavily affiliated with 1:23:28.240 --> 1:23:31.080 the azer Bay Johnny government or the Turkish regime and 1:23:31.160 --> 1:23:36.919 specifically the MHP party in Turkey, like the ulternational Turkish party. 1:23:36.880 --> 1:23:38.760 Yeah right, yeah. 1:23:38.800 --> 1:23:43.679 And then the Baluchis, I can say they are more 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:49.519 organized because they have this I don't want to call 1:23:49.600 --> 1:23:54.479 him a leader, but like the the highest, the highest 1:23:54.560 --> 1:24:02.040 level mollah in Baluchistan, Molavi Abdula. He is like the 1:24:02.080 --> 1:24:06.519 most popular mula in that region, and he was one 1:24:06.560 --> 1:24:10.880 of the people that was organizing protests and he was 1:24:10.920 --> 1:24:15.400 giving lots of speeches like during the Friday prayers in Baluchistan, 1:24:16.240 --> 1:24:18.800 and a lot of people were. They still like they 1:24:19.040 --> 1:24:22.200 follow him and they follow his words. But unfortunately he 1:24:22.280 --> 1:24:28.719 is also like appointed as the Imam of the Friday prayers, 1:24:28.760 --> 1:24:31.400 if I want to be more specific, in Baluchistan by 1:24:31.840 --> 1:24:36.320 Kameny himself, the Iranian Supreme Realer. But it's like a 1:24:36.360 --> 1:24:39.839 little bit hard to understand that where he stands exactly 1:24:39.960 --> 1:24:43.040 because on one side, he he's appointed by the regime. 1:24:43.040 --> 1:24:45.800 But on the other side, he's also like acting as 1:24:45.800 --> 1:24:50.800 a political leader or advocate in Baluchistan. I think they 1:24:50.840 --> 1:24:55.840 also have some armed groups, but they are mainly Islamists, 1:24:55.880 --> 1:24:59.679 and I would say, but they're also not very very 1:25:00.200 --> 1:25:05.720 will organized. Yeah, they do attack the IRGC members and 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:09.480 these agents who are oppressing people on a daily basis 1:25:09.800 --> 1:25:12.760 sometimes and sometimes they get killed. And also sometimes just 1:25:12.760 --> 1:25:16.080 a few days ago, there was a fight between these 1:25:16.120 --> 1:25:18.680 people and like civilians in the village and also the 1:25:18.720 --> 1:25:23.479 IRGC courses and I think two women were killed and 1:25:24.160 --> 1:25:28.559 more than ten or eleven were injured. Jeez, but this 1:25:28.720 --> 1:25:32.200 this fights and conflicts and they're always happening in Baluchistan. 1:25:33.000 --> 1:25:36.920 Yeah, it can be hard, I think especially people aren't familiar, right, 1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:42.879 like the Pak to distinguish from PJAK, like have definitely 1:25:42.880 --> 1:25:47.040 been making a big effort on the internet, I will say, 1:25:47.120 --> 1:25:49.639 like with their Peshmega right like in the last three 1:25:49.680 --> 1:25:54.960 weeks since the US entered the Israel's bombing campaign, like 1:25:55.200 --> 1:25:57.799 to appear like this and they are very well organized 1:25:57.840 --> 1:26:00.320 Pesh Mega like I think they say they were cook. 1:26:00.600 --> 1:26:02.320 I think maybe they're in Kubani. 1:26:01.880 --> 1:26:05.519 As well, like maybe they Yeah, they joined in yeah, ye. 1:26:05.920 --> 1:26:10.439 The Pajakh was specifically in Rajava and they were also 1:26:10.760 --> 1:26:14.920 fighting against ISIS because like they are like as I said, 1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:18.040 they are, they are a member of KCK, and there 1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:21.920 are allies of PKK, so they're all are interconnected and 1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:23.000 they all work together. 1:26:24.160 --> 1:26:27.000 I think the PAK also worth in Rushava, right. 1:26:27.160 --> 1:26:31.920 I am not sure, but I think members of PAK 1:26:32.640 --> 1:26:38.120 joined like the fight in Rojava, like as individuals, because 1:26:38.640 --> 1:26:41.280 the fight in was also something that people from all 1:26:41.320 --> 1:26:42.639 over Kurdistan went. 1:26:42.520 --> 1:26:46.720 There, Yeah, from northern Kerdistan to yeah. Yeah, And these 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:50.639 are very organized groups, but like there isn't I guess 1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:52.760 there is a kind of insurgency. But as you say, 1:26:52.800 --> 1:26:54.600 like if these groups just took our bambs in the 1:26:54.600 --> 1:26:59.880 cities and the IIGC would destroy everyone in those cities, right, 1:27:00.200 --> 1:27:02.760 that's a I think people sometimes one day like why 1:27:02.800 --> 1:27:06.360 they don't just start fighting and then there is fighting 1:27:06.360 --> 1:27:09.360 to be clear, But like as you say, the regime 1:27:09.400 --> 1:27:10.880 punishes civilians, right. 1:27:10.960 --> 1:27:13.120 Yeah, I mean this is not the first time that 1:27:13.120 --> 1:27:17.880 the regime does this. Every time that Israel does something 1:27:17.920 --> 1:27:20.280 to the regime, because this is not the first time 1:27:20.320 --> 1:27:24.680 that Israel has killed someone in Iran. Like some IRGC 1:27:24.840 --> 1:27:30.040 member or nuclear agent, nuclear scientists or whatever. Every time 1:27:30.080 --> 1:27:35.360 this happened during the past few years, instead of responding 1:27:35.400 --> 1:27:40.320 to Israel as a state, they responded to the Kurdish people. 1:27:40.720 --> 1:27:43.280 I think it was just two years Again, in twenty 1:27:43.320 --> 1:27:48.400 twenty two, they literally bombed a civilian house in Erbin, 1:27:49.040 --> 1:27:52.679 the capital of Iraqi, Curtisan, and they killed an entire family, 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:56.960 like it was like maybe a six seven months old 1:27:57.040 --> 1:28:02.840 baby and her father. They always respond to Kurtz when 1:28:03.160 --> 1:28:06.800 they get attacked or bombed or damaged or whatever by 1:28:07.120 --> 1:28:08.560 Israel or America. 1:28:08.680 --> 1:28:11.040 Yeah, it's like a soft target attarget they feel they 1:28:11.040 --> 1:28:15.000 can safely attack, you know, versus like we know now 1:28:15.080 --> 1:28:18.000 that they around pre warned the United States it was 1:28:18.040 --> 1:28:21.920 going to attack its basis, you know, following this bombing raid, 1:28:21.960 --> 1:28:24.720 and it was more of a performative thing than a 1:28:25.200 --> 1:28:28.400 like a serious attempt to attack US basis. 1:28:28.439 --> 1:28:31.960 And even like this week I saw in Slea money 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:34.120 like they round is sending shahedrones. 1:28:34.520 --> 1:28:39.120 Yeah. Actually during the past maybe ten days, this is 1:28:39.240 --> 1:28:43.000 like last night there was an attacking slay money. But 1:28:43.080 --> 1:28:45.920 this is like I think the fourth or third time 1:28:46.560 --> 1:28:49.559 that there have there have been like several drone attacks 1:28:49.600 --> 1:28:53.519 on different places. So, yeah, this is something that the 1:28:53.600 --> 1:29:06.080 Rhalem has been doing one of the other funny things. 1:29:06.160 --> 1:29:09.120 I mean, this is not funny exactly, but it's weird. 1:29:09.760 --> 1:29:13.160 I just yesterday and actually two days ago. I'm not 1:29:13.200 --> 1:29:16.680 really good with dates and numbers, that's okay. Just two 1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:21.040 days ago they conducted like a cyber attack on this 1:29:21.160 --> 1:29:25.440 TV channel, Iran International, which is also advocating for monarchists, 1:29:25.880 --> 1:29:30.320 and they expose like some newt photos and like private 1:29:30.360 --> 1:29:33.760 photos and videos of some of the staff that work there, 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:37.679 and they are threatening that we will publish more if 1:29:37.680 --> 1:29:40.799 you don't stop or whatever. This is also like another 1:29:40.880 --> 1:29:44.760 strategies that the regime uses when they lose something, when 1:29:44.760 --> 1:29:51.000 they get attacked. They also like target activists, journalists, or 1:29:51.120 --> 1:29:54.960 for example they threatened their families or they threaten them 1:29:55.000 --> 1:29:58.160 here inside Europe or in America or Canada or wherever 1:29:58.200 --> 1:30:01.640 they are. Yeah, this is like as we call it, 1:30:01.160 --> 1:30:05.439 it's the transnational repression of the regime and it's been 1:30:05.479 --> 1:30:08.280 going on forever. And again if you look at the numbers, 1:30:08.720 --> 1:30:12.879 most of the attacks have been on Kurdish activists. For example, 1:30:13.040 --> 1:30:16.519 during the past thirty years, over I think around six 1:30:16.640 --> 1:30:21.759 hundred non political activists have been killed by the regime 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:25.880 outside of Iran, and nearly four hundred and fifty or 1:30:25.920 --> 1:30:28.960 something of them were Kurdish. Yeah, this is also another 1:30:29.000 --> 1:30:31.080 thing that the regime has been doing, and in these 1:30:31.160 --> 1:30:32.960 days they have intensified. 1:30:33.760 --> 1:30:33.960 Yeah. 1:30:34.040 --> 1:30:34.840 Yeah. 1:30:34.320 --> 1:30:38.000 They have a long history of transnational repression and like 1:30:38.560 --> 1:30:41.479 participating in the repression of other. 1:30:41.360 --> 1:30:42.040 Revolutions, right. 1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:44.839 Like, of course they were massive backers of the Asad regime interior. 1:30:45.520 --> 1:30:49.760 You know, all around the region. They will find the 1:30:49.800 --> 1:30:52.360 wrong side to line up on it and do that. 1:30:52.840 --> 1:30:53.080 Again. 1:30:53.200 --> 1:30:55.680 Of course, people will also be familiar they were supporting Kusbala, 1:30:55.760 --> 1:30:56.719 for instance in Lebanon. 1:30:57.479 --> 1:30:59.920 One thing I've heard is that like the regime has 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:03.840 been really cracking down on Afghan people, like mass devotations 1:31:03.840 --> 1:31:05.720 of Afghan people who have come to Iran, right and 1:31:05.800 --> 1:31:07.800 especially in the wake of this bombing campaign. Can we 1:31:07.840 --> 1:31:09.120 talk about that briefly. 1:31:09.560 --> 1:31:12.919 Yes, of course. I think that's one of the most 1:31:12.960 --> 1:31:17.640 horrible things that happened after the war. So far. We 1:31:17.680 --> 1:31:21.599 know that just in June they deported over thirty thousand 1:31:21.680 --> 1:31:25.280 Afghans and it's still going on, Like they mass support 1:31:25.640 --> 1:31:30.600 tens of thousands of Afghan refugees every day, and just 1:31:31.120 --> 1:31:34.040 something that was really horrible to me when I read it. 1:31:34.640 --> 1:31:39.599 There were six thousand kids that were unregistered and they 1:31:39.640 --> 1:31:42.880 were separated from their parents and they were sent back 1:31:42.920 --> 1:31:44.160 to Afghanistan alone. 1:31:44.479 --> 1:31:45.240 Jesus. 1:31:45.880 --> 1:31:50.599 Yeah, and they are haunting down Afghan migrants in different 1:31:50.600 --> 1:31:53.680 cities across around, especially in Tehran because most of them 1:31:53.680 --> 1:31:57.559 are there. Yeah. And the thing is that the Afghan 1:31:57.680 --> 1:32:00.639 I think there are all worth three million gone migrants 1:32:00.680 --> 1:32:04.320 in Iran or maybe more. Nobody knows the exact numbers 1:32:04.360 --> 1:32:09.440 because the Iranian government never ever publishes the true statistics, 1:32:10.120 --> 1:32:12.439 but there are millions of them in Iran and they 1:32:12.520 --> 1:32:16.080 are not actually allowed to They were not allowed actually 1:32:16.120 --> 1:32:18.559 like they're getting kicked out right now, but they were 1:32:18.600 --> 1:32:22.519 not allowed to work in Kurdish cities. They were only 1:32:22.560 --> 1:32:27.559 allowed to work in Persian speaking cities like Tehran, mashat Hiros, 1:32:27.680 --> 1:32:33.920 Isfahan and these big industrial cities. So like right now, 1:32:34.120 --> 1:32:36.799 if you look at the internet, they are being hunted 1:32:36.840 --> 1:32:42.479 down by Iranian agents everywhere and they're being forced to 1:32:42.520 --> 1:32:45.439 go back to Afghanistan. And one of the things that 1:32:45.520 --> 1:32:48.360 I want to mention that's been going on from a 1:32:48.439 --> 1:32:52.920 humanitarian perspective that really really makes me sad, and also 1:32:53.000 --> 1:32:57.960 it reflects a very ugly reality about the Persian or 1:32:57.960 --> 1:33:02.600 the Iranian society and the amount of racism and fascism 1:33:02.640 --> 1:33:06.000 that exists among them, not just by the regime, by 1:33:06.040 --> 1:33:10.080 the people as well. There have been hundreds of videos 1:33:10.080 --> 1:33:14.000 and footage online. You can also check just search and 1:33:14.040 --> 1:33:18.599 you will see that random citizens, young people, they are 1:33:18.800 --> 1:33:22.479 attacking Afghan people in the city and I don't know, 1:33:22.520 --> 1:33:27.520 in subways, in the parks, in cheese, in public places. 1:33:27.840 --> 1:33:31.439 Just yesterday I saw a very heartbreaking video because like 1:33:31.520 --> 1:33:34.920 Afgone people, they also have a different look. You can 1:33:34.960 --> 1:33:39.880 easily say that they're not Iranians. An Afghan teenager was 1:33:40.720 --> 1:33:44.799 being attacked by eggs Jesus and they were just throwing 1:33:44.840 --> 1:33:47.960 eggs at him and then they poured like lots of 1:33:48.400 --> 1:33:51.960 some powder and then like some juice and like coca cola. 1:33:52.000 --> 1:33:53.839 I don't know what was that. They were just throwing 1:33:54.000 --> 1:33:56.479 everything at him. And on the other another video that 1:33:56.560 --> 1:33:59.880 I saw, they stopped a man maybe he was thirty 1:34:00.120 --> 1:34:03.519 or something. They forced him to kiss the hand of 1:34:03.640 --> 1:34:07.000 a stray dog. And then yeah, that would be like, yeah, 1:34:07.040 --> 1:34:10.160 he's kissing a dog. But in the Middle East culture 1:34:10.280 --> 1:34:13.439 when you force someone to kiss a dog. 1:34:13.280 --> 1:34:14.480 It's very disrespectful. 1:34:14.800 --> 1:34:18.519 Yeah, it's really disrespectful, and like they're also I read 1:34:18.560 --> 1:34:22.400 on the internet that many Afghuns reported that, like, for example, 1:34:22.439 --> 1:34:25.280 in Tehran, they were renting a house or an apartment 1:34:25.360 --> 1:34:28.000 or something, and they were living in those apartments and 1:34:28.040 --> 1:34:31.439 the landlord reported them to the police. It's like what's 1:34:31.439 --> 1:34:34.920 happening in the US. It's something like ice, but it's 1:34:34.920 --> 1:34:38.800 Iranian but more brutal. Then the police just came and 1:34:39.080 --> 1:34:42.240 took them all. And now the landlords are refusing to 1:34:42.400 --> 1:34:46.559 give back the passion money to Afghans, and many of 1:34:46.560 --> 1:34:50.760 them are being forced out without any food, without any 1:34:50.800 --> 1:34:55.000 support anything, and especially the women. Like I also read 1:34:55.000 --> 1:34:58.000 about like a doctor that fled Polybon and he was 1:34:58.000 --> 1:35:01.040 in Tehran and now if he goes back to Toliban 1:35:01.080 --> 1:35:04.920 will definitely kill him because he was like against Tolliban. Yeah, 1:35:05.479 --> 1:35:10.120 I mean, it's it's it's a very horrible humanitarian situation. 1:35:10.479 --> 1:35:15.360 And the people, like in Baluchistan, they are also suffering. 1:35:15.960 --> 1:35:18.280 But I saw many videos and also some of the 1:35:18.320 --> 1:35:21.400 activists published lots of footage that they were they were 1:35:21.439 --> 1:35:24.840 bringing food, water, I don't know, medicine, and things like 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:27.200 that on the on the road to give it to 1:35:27.240 --> 1:35:29.679 those people who are going back, and they were offering 1:35:29.760 --> 1:35:32.559 I don't know whatever they had. And in Afghanistan there 1:35:32.600 --> 1:35:37.240 is also happening, but it's just so crazy because both 1:35:37.400 --> 1:35:42.360 the regime and also the anti regime media are trying 1:35:42.400 --> 1:35:46.720 to portray Afghans as the problem. Just exactly like how 1:35:46.760 --> 1:35:50.320 the far right parties in Germany, like IFD, they are 1:35:50.360 --> 1:35:54.200 portraying refugees and migrants are as the main problem. 1:35:54.560 --> 1:35:56.439 Yeah, it's a global thing. It happens here. 1:35:58.160 --> 1:36:02.800 Yeah, it's it's exactly the same. Yeah, and like yeah, 1:36:03.080 --> 1:36:08.240 unfortunately the even the Iranian opposition has not been clear. 1:36:08.840 --> 1:36:11.400 But again because there is some sort of solidarity that 1:36:11.640 --> 1:36:15.080 encourage pollutes and Afghans and also other minorities. Yeah, it's 1:36:15.120 --> 1:36:18.200 the minorities that talk about this. It's the minority groups 1:36:18.200 --> 1:36:22.880 and organizations who try to raise awareness over this. Unfortunately, 1:36:23.960 --> 1:36:27.640 I think nobody can stop it because they're doing it anyways. 1:36:28.000 --> 1:36:32.760 Yeah, and like we shouldn't support an opposition politics. It 1:36:32.800 --> 1:36:34.519 is just another ethnot like. 1:36:34.479 --> 1:36:37.439 We see that in Syria right now, right, Like, yeah, 1:36:37.640 --> 1:36:40.080 they haven't even changed the name. We have this revolution, 1:36:40.840 --> 1:36:44.240 tens of thousands, maybe one hundreds of thousands of people 1:36:44.240 --> 1:36:48.720 definitely died, Yeah, to build something better, and we still 1:36:48.760 --> 1:36:50.120 have the Syrian Arab Republic. 1:36:50.280 --> 1:36:50.599 Yeah. 1:36:50.720 --> 1:36:52.639 Yeah, it's maybe the Alahites are. 1:36:52.600 --> 1:36:56.559 Being persecuted and they weren't before, but like that shouldn't matter, right, Like, 1:36:56.600 --> 1:36:59.040 if we're building trying to build something better. 1:36:58.880 --> 1:37:01.599 I mean they are just remnant of Isis. So what 1:37:01.640 --> 1:37:02.400 can you expect? 1:37:02.600 --> 1:37:08.240 Yeah, exactly, Yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's very sad to see, 1:37:08.280 --> 1:37:11.479 you know, after after so much killing and dying, I 1:37:11.479 --> 1:37:14.639 guess to finish up, I think people in the US 1:37:14.680 --> 1:37:16.920 do not get very good coverage of what's happening in 1:37:16.960 --> 1:37:18.559 a run right, Like I said that, as you say, 1:37:18.560 --> 1:37:23.360 dominated by monarchist outlets, we tend to have good resources 1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:25.960 which allow them to kind of get to the top 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:30.559 of people's feeds or they're getting like press TV stuff, 1:37:30.640 --> 1:37:33.680 right that just like straight up regime propaganda. 1:37:33.880 --> 1:37:35.840 Now, where can people find. 1:37:35.600 --> 1:37:39.840 Like good resources to understand what's what's happening in around 1:37:39.880 --> 1:37:41.880 Like from the perspective of you know, the majority of 1:37:41.920 --> 1:37:44.200 people who just want to live a free life, and 1:37:44.520 --> 1:37:48.040 especially like you know, the women in particularly in a 1:37:48.080 --> 1:37:51.760 round right, have an extremely difficult and repressive every that 1:37:51.840 --> 1:37:54.519 the regime dominates every aspect of their lives, Like where 1:37:54.520 --> 1:37:57.600 can people find reasonable coverage that acknowledges that. 1:37:58.200 --> 1:38:00.840 Honestly, if I want to talk about media like TV 1:38:01.000 --> 1:38:06.519 channels or just media websites, there is no media like 1:38:06.680 --> 1:38:12.439 Iranian media that truly reflects what's happening in Iran. There 1:38:12.439 --> 1:38:16.400 are like many leftists and also right wing medias. For example, 1:38:16.439 --> 1:38:18.679 if I want to go like a very leftist media 1:38:18.720 --> 1:38:23.360 called Radio Zamani, they are not really good. Like then 1:38:23.439 --> 1:38:28.520 we have Iran International, BBC, Persian Voice of America, Persian Independent, 1:38:28.640 --> 1:38:31.679 Persian like there are many many media that all of these, 1:38:31.840 --> 1:38:35.000 like I would say the big media, they are heavily 1:38:35.560 --> 1:38:42.040 dominated and I would say exploited by the ultranationalist people. 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:46.000 And also there are people who are related to IRGC 1:38:46.200 --> 1:38:50.680 and this organization called Nayak that is like the regime's 1:38:50.840 --> 1:38:55.000 lobby group in the US, and these individuals that work there, 1:38:55.160 --> 1:39:00.320 they truly don't reflect what's happening there. And I mean 1:39:00.360 --> 1:39:02.679 it's kind of hard because if people want to understand 1:39:02.680 --> 1:39:05.320 what's happening, maybe they should read everything they're posting and 1:39:05.360 --> 1:39:08.439 then analyze that, hey, this makes sense and this doesn't 1:39:09.200 --> 1:39:11.360 but that just a little bit hard. But also on 1:39:11.400 --> 1:39:15.240 the other side, I would suggest that people should follow 1:39:16.080 --> 1:39:20.280 more human rights organizations, which again some of them, if 1:39:20.320 --> 1:39:22.040 I want, I don't know if it's okay to say 1:39:22.080 --> 1:39:25.160 their names, some of them and the people for example, 1:39:25.200 --> 1:39:30.160 the Burrumant Organization, they did lots of great work, but 1:39:30.400 --> 1:39:34.880 recently again they showed some sort of racism and like 1:39:35.280 --> 1:39:40.600 censorship against minorities, especially Kurt and people like Lot and 1:39:40.680 --> 1:39:43.879 buzz Agane. They are like also doing some human rights 1:39:44.000 --> 1:39:48.160 work in the US, and even people like Massi and 1:39:48.240 --> 1:39:52.080 all these I would say known activists, and even here 1:39:52.120 --> 1:39:57.200 in Germany, they are not truly reflecting what's happening. They're 1:39:57.400 --> 1:40:03.280 just focused on the Persian and they're like they talk 1:40:03.360 --> 1:40:07.520 about minorities time to time, but only when it fits 1:40:07.600 --> 1:40:12.680 into their agendas, into their ideologies and perspectives. But there 1:40:12.680 --> 1:40:16.800 are other organizations which I'm working with, like Hangout Organization 1:40:16.880 --> 1:40:20.760 for Human Rights. Until two thousand, late twenty twenty three, 1:40:20.840 --> 1:40:24.040 I guess we were mainly focused on East Kurdistan, but 1:40:24.160 --> 1:40:28.559 right now we report human rights violations from all over Iran, 1:40:29.280 --> 1:40:32.639 like yeah, but we try our best, and I think 1:40:32.920 --> 1:40:35.280 I could say that we are one of the best 1:40:35.479 --> 1:40:39.280 when it comes to all these things, and we don't 1:40:39.320 --> 1:40:42.559 care about what people think. We just report what's happening 1:40:42.680 --> 1:40:46.439 or what happened. And there are other organizations like Iran 1:40:46.520 --> 1:40:50.200 Human Rights they're also good. For example, there is another 1:40:50.240 --> 1:40:53.920 one called Tawana. They are like a very big organization, 1:40:54.080 --> 1:40:58.439 but unfortunately they advocated for the monarchists again just a 1:40:58.479 --> 1:41:01.800 few months ago, so it's kind of hard to see 1:41:01.800 --> 1:41:05.439 that who is truly on the side of people. And 1:41:05.600 --> 1:41:09.120 when you look at the human rights organizations. I'm not 1:41:09.160 --> 1:41:11.720 saying this because I'm Kurdish, but this is what I 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:15.680 see and I think it's true. The only organizations that 1:41:15.840 --> 1:41:21.040 truly reflect what's happening without caring about people's backgrounds or 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:25.120 ethnicity or whatever. It's our organization. Hang Out and also 1:41:25.240 --> 1:41:29.920 like organizations like Curtis on Human Rights Network, but unfortunately 1:41:29.920 --> 1:41:33.439 the majority of the others are are really clear. So 1:41:33.680 --> 1:41:37.080 for Kurdish issue, I would say definitely hang out and 1:41:37.120 --> 1:41:40.160 also on my page Kurdistani people I also like write 1:41:40.160 --> 1:41:42.640 a lot of things, and also Kurdish Piece Institute and 1:41:42.720 --> 1:41:47.639 Kurtish Center for Studies. They have lots of other Kurdish 1:41:47.720 --> 1:41:51.320 journalists and experts that write a lot of really good 1:41:51.400 --> 1:41:53.720 articles about the situation there. And if I want to 1:41:53.760 --> 1:41:57.280 mention names, I would say Rojen Mukhliani. She is like 1:41:57.320 --> 1:42:01.120 a really great researcher. She lives in our land. There 1:42:01.200 --> 1:42:06.400 is another professor called Camraan Martin. He also writes really 1:42:06.439 --> 1:42:11.120 great analysis on situation and like the things that people 1:42:11.160 --> 1:42:14.479 even don't think about. They're writing with so many different 1:42:14.479 --> 1:42:19.440 international organizations and institutes. Yeah, there are like these individuals 1:42:19.439 --> 1:42:20.400 and activists. 1:42:21.640 --> 1:42:23.679 Thank you so much for joining us. That was really 1:42:24.120 --> 1:42:26.360 that really helped, I think for people to understand things. 1:42:26.640 --> 1:42:29.160 Tell us about your your Kurdistan People page. Where can 1:42:29.160 --> 1:42:31.400 they find that on on Instagram? 1:42:31.840 --> 1:42:34.759 Yeah, thank you for inviting me and thank you for 1:42:34.840 --> 1:42:39.679 letting me speak. Yeah, I have this page Kurdistani People. 1:42:39.800 --> 1:42:44.160 I usually post about all over Kurdistan the things that matter. 1:42:44.680 --> 1:42:47.600 Obviously I can't do it all the time, but yeah, yeah, 1:42:47.680 --> 1:42:50.280 I post a lot of things. And there are other 1:42:50.320 --> 1:42:53.280 pages that are also collaborate with, like Kurdish Activism or 1:42:53.360 --> 1:42:56.280 everything about Kurtistan, where just a group of people who 1:42:56.320 --> 1:43:00.160 work together. Obviously, like our organization, I think it's it's 1:43:00.240 --> 1:43:02.760 very very important for people to follow and support it 1:43:03.080 --> 1:43:08.240 hang Out Organization for Human Rights and also Kurdistan Human 1:43:08.320 --> 1:43:12.880 Rights Network that's also like another one that you can follow. Yeah, 1:43:12.920 --> 1:43:15.760 and also like GA I talked about some names and 1:43:15.880 --> 1:43:19.439 individuals and researchers. Yeah, you can also follow them for 1:43:20.040 --> 1:43:25.120 more professional analysis about East Kurdistan or Rochalot. 1:43:25.360 --> 1:43:27.519 Yeah. Great, well, thank you Sam for joining us. We 1:43:27.560 --> 1:43:28.639 really appreciate your time. 1:43:28.960 --> 1:43:30.559 Thank you, Thank you very much. 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:53.200 Hi everyone, and welcome. What could happen here? 1:43:53.320 --> 1:43:57.840 It is a second episode about Kurdistan. I am very 1:43:57.960 --> 1:44:02.519 lucky to be joined today by Vladimir van Wilgenberg, who 1:44:02.600 --> 1:44:05.200 many of you will know is a journalist covering Kurdistan. 1:44:05.240 --> 1:44:08.280 It's done excellent work for a lot of publications. So 1:44:08.439 --> 1:44:09.839 welcome to the show of Vladimir. 1:44:09.840 --> 1:44:11.040 Thanks so much for irritation. 1:44:11.439 --> 1:44:13.559 Yeah, thanks for thanks for being willing to join us 1:44:13.560 --> 1:44:16.360 so late at night your time. Let's start off by 1:44:16.400 --> 1:44:20.080 discussing an event you attended or the event you were 1:44:20.080 --> 1:44:23.200 in proximity too. By the sounds of it, people will 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:25.519 have seen this online, I'm sure, but it was the 1:44:26.760 --> 1:44:32.759 disarmament of a number of PKKE garrillas that took place 1:44:33.120 --> 1:44:37.080 in the mountains of southern Kurdistan over the weekend of 1:44:37.120 --> 1:44:38.719 the tenth to twelfth of July. 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:42.640 So yeah, a few days ago, well, I tried to 1:44:42.640 --> 1:44:46.160 attend the ceremony from for the big Kegary Lass that 1:44:46.280 --> 1:44:51.479 were disarming, but sally what happened is that they burned 1:44:51.479 --> 1:44:54.559 their weapons, although technically it's not really possible to burn 1:44:54.560 --> 1:44:57.240 a weapon because there were colossic coals specially that they 1:44:57.240 --> 1:44:59.679 were put they put in a fire, and it wasn't 1:44:59.720 --> 1:45:02.519 like a actually a tourist cave near do Kan, so 1:45:02.680 --> 1:45:05.200 this is not It was actually very different because I 1:45:05.240 --> 1:45:08.800 also have been in during the peace process. I've also 1:45:09.120 --> 1:45:10.840 was in a press conference of the pik Ak in 1:45:10.880 --> 1:45:14.880 two thousand fourteen or fifteen or some of that around 1:45:14.880 --> 1:45:17.360 that time, and that was very different because it was 1:45:17.400 --> 1:45:20.160 basically in the area that the Pikak is activated. It 1:45:20.240 --> 1:45:22.760 was in the area under their control, but this was 1:45:22.920 --> 1:45:27.240 under a different Kurdish parties control. It's called the patriarch 1:45:27.320 --> 1:45:30.920 Union of Kurdistan. So in Iraqi Kurdistan you have two 1:45:30.960 --> 1:45:34.880 main parties, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and you have 1:45:35.000 --> 1:45:38.680 the Kurdistan Democratic Party. So this cave where they did 1:45:38.760 --> 1:45:41.600 the ceremony, which is actually a tourist cave. It's in 1:45:41.960 --> 1:45:46.000 PUK controlled area, so the ceremony was sort of protected 1:45:46.040 --> 1:45:49.559 by PUK security forces and that's why. Also the PUK 1:45:49.920 --> 1:45:53.559 media they got a lot of special access, and also 1:45:53.680 --> 1:45:56.160 there was the Turkish government media was there, and also 1:45:56.280 --> 1:45:59.200 PIKK media was there and a lot of other Kurdish 1:45:59.240 --> 1:46:00.000 TV channels. 1:46:00.560 --> 1:46:02.080 So it was a very interesting day. 1:46:02.400 --> 1:46:05.080 Although I was not able to pass the checkpoint towards 1:46:05.080 --> 1:46:08.200 the ceremony because at the last moment, actually a few 1:46:08.280 --> 1:46:10.120 days before the ceremony, they. 1:46:10.080 --> 1:46:11.519 Changed the access. 1:46:12.040 --> 1:46:14.559 Supposedly it will be a very open ceremony, but then 1:46:14.600 --> 1:46:17.360 they said for because of security reasons that they had 1:46:17.360 --> 1:46:19.479 to restrict the ceremony and there would be some TV 1:46:19.560 --> 1:46:22.839 screens and stuff. And then I couldn't find the TV screens. 1:46:22.920 --> 1:46:26.200 But that's another discussion. But I also don't still understand 1:46:26.280 --> 1:46:30.280 what the security risk was. Although a day before there 1:46:30.320 --> 1:46:34.600 was a drone strike on a Kurdish Peshmerga base, but 1:46:34.720 --> 1:46:36.960 that was like quite far away from that. It was 1:46:37.040 --> 1:46:39.200 one hour away from the ceremony location. 1:46:39.320 --> 1:46:41.160 Yeah, and it's an Iranian droned to take great like 1:46:41.200 --> 1:46:42.519 a Shahi drone. 1:46:42.840 --> 1:46:45.599 Yeah, So there have been like no group has claimed 1:46:45.680 --> 1:46:49.160 these attacks. But after, in the aftermath of the Twelve 1:46:49.240 --> 1:46:51.679 Day War, there have been a lot of drone strikes 1:46:51.760 --> 1:46:56.719 in the Kurdistan region in various areas, including this morning 1:46:56.840 --> 1:47:01.080 on an American oil company's facility in the province Okay, 1:47:01.360 --> 1:47:05.479 and the day before that also on another field near Airbill. 1:47:06.000 --> 1:47:09.000 So it has been quite tense, Yeah, which also probably 1:47:09.080 --> 1:47:10.760 affected the ceremony, although it's not. 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:11.639 Really related to it. 1:47:11.800 --> 1:47:12.799 Yeah, it's different. 1:47:13.400 --> 1:47:16.240 So yeah, basically what was interesting, So they have this 1:47:16.360 --> 1:47:19.479 peace process between Kurdish rebels and the Turkish state. 1:47:20.240 --> 1:47:22.519 It's all started with a call by a. 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:25.679 Turkish ultra and nationalist leader which actually in the past 1:47:25.720 --> 1:47:29.280 actually called for executing ab the Loachland, the leader of 1:47:29.320 --> 1:47:32.679 the Kurdistan Workers Party has been in prison since the nineties. 1:47:33.360 --> 1:47:37.200 He was actually surprisingly starting this peace process. 1:47:37.240 --> 1:47:39.440 He was saying like we should. 1:47:39.120 --> 1:47:42.280 Have him talk in the parliament and call for disbanding 1:47:42.320 --> 1:47:45.400 the pik a K. So he never came to the parliament, 1:47:45.439 --> 1:47:50.000 but he released messages from prison, and before the ceremony 1:47:50.040 --> 1:47:53.559 he released also a video message where he again focused 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:59.040 on disarming basically. Yeah, and then the ceremony basically came 1:47:59.479 --> 1:48:04.639 where he had thirty fighters fifteen women fifteen men, because 1:48:04.680 --> 1:48:07.439 the pikk is all about woman equality, so that's why 1:48:07.479 --> 1:48:10.519 they did it fifty to fifty, and they put their 1:48:10.560 --> 1:48:13.960 weapons in this fire. So I think this is also secondfice, 1:48:14.280 --> 1:48:18.080 a point of renewal because Kurts, as a tradition, they 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:21.120 have this Kurdish New Year every year on twenty one March, 1:48:21.560 --> 1:48:24.760 where people jump over fires. There's a lot of fireworks, 1:48:25.160 --> 1:48:27.120 and the Kurdish and atros is basically the start of 1:48:27.160 --> 1:48:27.920 a new beginning. 1:48:28.200 --> 1:48:28.880 Yeah, so I. 1:48:28.840 --> 1:48:31.720 Think one of the reasons they chose these fires is 1:48:31.760 --> 1:48:35.200 because of this idea of a new beginning, and also 1:48:35.240 --> 1:48:39.200 the fact that when the Pikak started there were people 1:48:39.280 --> 1:48:41.280 that sort of the creators of the pik k. They 1:48:41.280 --> 1:48:43.559 are actually some of them they burned themselves in prison 1:48:44.200 --> 1:48:49.240 in the Turkish prisoneh. So it's also sort of related 1:48:49.280 --> 1:48:53.840 to that, this sort of interlinkage with a fire. Yeah, 1:48:54.320 --> 1:48:57.759 and you also saw that they carefully put the weapons 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:00.479 in the fire, they didn't just throw them. So it's 1:49:00.520 --> 1:49:03.360 it doesn't mean that they have completely given up on weapons, 1:49:04.040 --> 1:49:09.120 because they're still waiting on counter steps from the Turkish government. 1:49:09.400 --> 1:49:15.280 Yeah, Like there has been fighting between pikk or hPG 1:49:15.479 --> 1:49:17.920 or how you want to say it, like hPG being 1:49:17.960 --> 1:49:21.000 like the technically the armed wing. There has been fighting 1:49:21.080 --> 1:49:27.320 in southern Kurdistan, like in Iraqi kig Kerdistan Autonomous Region 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:29.920 of Iraq since the call for peace, right like there 1:49:29.960 --> 1:49:31.120 has been ongoing fighting. 1:49:31.479 --> 1:49:34.880 Yeah, I mean it's not really I would not say 1:49:34.880 --> 1:49:38.880 that it's like like actively fighting to take territory, yes, 1:49:38.920 --> 1:49:40.360 which was happening before. 1:49:41.040 --> 1:49:42.000 So it's more that. 1:49:42.000 --> 1:49:46.400 It's some like Turkish armies shooting artillery on the pik 1:49:46.400 --> 1:49:49.799 Ak and there was also one incident that the Pikak 1:49:49.960 --> 1:49:51.439 actually responded by drones. 1:49:52.000 --> 1:49:53.240 But so far this. 1:49:53.280 --> 1:49:55.840 Didn't reach much in the Turkish or the Kurdish media. 1:49:55.920 --> 1:49:58.120 I mean they were like, some of this artillery shelling 1:49:58.120 --> 1:50:01.360 costs some fires, so villagers in the areas it's a 1:50:01.439 --> 1:50:03.840 very hot summer now, they were trying to put out 1:50:03.880 --> 1:50:07.280 the fires. But it was not like the active, active 1:50:07.320 --> 1:50:11.120 fighting that you had before. And you know, since there 1:50:11.160 --> 1:50:13.120 was also a previous peace process. I mean, there have 1:50:13.200 --> 1:50:17.280 been several peace processes since history between the Pikyk and Turkey, 1:50:17.320 --> 1:50:21.120 but they never had a positive result. And last one 1:50:21.120 --> 1:50:25.400 before this song was twenty fifteen, and after that peace 1:50:25.439 --> 1:50:28.800 process broke down when two policemen were shot. It's still 1:50:28.880 --> 1:50:33.720 unclear who shot those policemen. The fighting erupted again and 1:50:33.760 --> 1:50:36.400 since then there have been heavy fighting, first in the 1:50:36.479 --> 1:50:42.959 Kurdish majority areas of Turkey until basically Turkey defeated Kurdish 1:50:43.280 --> 1:50:46.439 armed insurgents in the Kurdish cities in Turkey, and since 1:50:46.479 --> 1:50:49.760 then actually the fighting has moved more to Iraqi Kurdistan, 1:50:50.160 --> 1:50:53.440 where the pikk has also a historical presence since the nineties. 1:50:54.360 --> 1:50:57.280 What you now have is that you have this new 1:50:57.320 --> 1:51:01.000 peace process started by the skull of Bats Shelly and 1:51:01.479 --> 1:51:04.680 the big Aka leader Johanna has said the time for 1:51:04.880 --> 1:51:07.760 armed struggle is over. We don't want to have a 1:51:07.800 --> 1:51:11.320 Kurdish date. So basically what now is happening is that 1:51:11.640 --> 1:51:15.960 the Kurdish Pikak and the Kurdish political counterpart in Turkey, 1:51:15.960 --> 1:51:20.400 they're basically waiting for steps by Turkey now to give 1:51:20.439 --> 1:51:23.360 them basically trust to continue this process. 1:51:23.960 --> 1:51:25.400 And there was also a speech by. 1:51:25.240 --> 1:51:28.639 The Turkish president Erdoland where he was also saying that 1:51:28.880 --> 1:51:32.160 it's the end. We don't need anymore, We need to talk. 1:51:32.360 --> 1:51:35.720 It's not a time for weapons anymore. We spend trillions 1:51:35.720 --> 1:51:38.680 of dollars on the war against the pik Ak. We 1:51:38.800 --> 1:51:42.720 had this a lot of martyrs and we sacrificed a lot, 1:51:43.360 --> 1:51:46.160 and it's now the time to stop the war and 1:51:46.360 --> 1:51:48.800 to do talking. And he said they're going to work 1:51:48.840 --> 1:51:52.439 with the Kurdish Party and this ultra Turkish nationalist party 1:51:52.479 --> 1:51:56.200 the MHP in the parliament, and to also set up 1:51:56.200 --> 1:51:59.839 a commission to basically work on constitutional changes. 1:52:00.240 --> 1:52:02.240 Yeah, let's take a break for adverts here and then 1:52:02.280 --> 1:52:16.200 we'll come back. All right, we are back. I guess 1:52:16.439 --> 1:52:19.519 we should talk briefly about like the nature of this 1:52:19.520 --> 1:52:21.360 this core for piece. You explained very well that this 1:52:21.479 --> 1:52:23.280 is probably a higher chance of success than there has 1:52:23.280 --> 1:52:26.160 ever been, right, Like, we have the explicit buy in 1:52:26.280 --> 1:52:30.160 of Ojulan, who hasn't been seen on video since the nineties, 1:52:30.200 --> 1:52:32.000 so like to have him making a video statement, it's 1:52:32.040 --> 1:52:34.600 quite significant. I'm sure he's been seen on video, but 1:52:34.720 --> 1:52:37.760 like not not like making a speech, right, and then 1:52:38.120 --> 1:52:41.680 that we have like this this endorsement in the Turkish Parliament. Like, 1:52:42.520 --> 1:52:46.280 I think there's been a lot of speculation about what 1:52:46.479 --> 1:52:49.479 led to this, and some of it's not particularly helpful. 1:52:50.000 --> 1:52:52.840 But you know, you're you're very well educated on these matters. 1:52:52.880 --> 1:52:56.160 What do you think this means for not just the 1:52:56.200 --> 1:52:58.519 PKK but the k c K. I guess like the 1:52:58.600 --> 1:53:01.599 Kurdish Freedom Movement that the diferent movements throughout Curtistown, they 1:53:01.600 --> 1:53:05.400 are inspired by the political thought of Aujilan Well. 1:53:05.479 --> 1:53:08.240 I mean, until now, it's difficult to say what exactly 1:53:08.280 --> 1:53:11.439 is going to happen because the PIKK said they're going 1:53:11.479 --> 1:53:12.839 to go, they will disarm. 1:53:12.920 --> 1:53:14.679 But there's other. 1:53:14.640 --> 1:53:18.639 Groups which are linked to the PIKK in Iran, Iran 1:53:18.840 --> 1:53:23.080 and in Syria and also for instance Sinjar. Those groups 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:25.559 said they were not Some of them have said publicly 1:53:25.600 --> 1:53:27.880 that we're not part of this process or they welcome 1:53:27.960 --> 1:53:30.800 the process, and others they didn't really say much. 1:53:30.840 --> 1:53:32.920 To the City's group haven't said really a lot. 1:53:33.000 --> 1:53:35.519 Yeah, so it's also going to. 1:53:35.560 --> 1:53:38.160 Be interesting what will happen with those groups, with the 1:53:38.160 --> 1:53:42.599 Iranian Kurdish group and also with the Serian democratic forces 1:53:42.640 --> 1:53:44.960 in Syria that have a different situation. Also after the 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:47.720 fall of US out, they have these talks with Damascus. 1:53:48.240 --> 1:53:50.519 And actually one of the reasons that the first piece 1:53:50.560 --> 1:53:54.439 process broke down was because that in actually at that 1:53:54.479 --> 1:53:56.559 time also that Turkey was a little bit afraid of 1:53:56.600 --> 1:53:59.800 this alliance between the Kurds and the Americans at the 1:53:59.800 --> 1:54:03.760 time against ISIS that was then rising up in Syria 1:54:03.840 --> 1:54:06.120 and attacked the Kurdish town of Cobine in Syria, which 1:54:06.120 --> 1:54:09.519 created an alliance between the Kurts and the US against 1:54:09.920 --> 1:54:13.439 the ISIS terrorists militant jihadi group. 1:54:14.240 --> 1:54:17.040 But now the situation actually is interesting. 1:54:17.160 --> 1:54:20.320 So at that time the Curds were empowered in Syria, 1:54:20.720 --> 1:54:23.320 but now you can see there's a completely different situation 1:54:23.439 --> 1:54:27.040 now the opposite way. So now you have the rebels 1:54:27.040 --> 1:54:29.600 that took over Damascus and they are now the government 1:54:30.040 --> 1:54:33.840 run by Jiulani his previous name, who's now called himself 1:54:33.840 --> 1:54:37.200 antal Shada, his real name. So they now have a 1:54:37.240 --> 1:54:41.560 new Islamist controlled government and Damascus, and there's a lot 1:54:41.600 --> 1:54:45.120 of tension between the Curts in Syria and Damascus. So 1:54:45.360 --> 1:54:48.240 this could also risk basically this piece process with Turkey 1:54:48.320 --> 1:54:52.400 because the SDF they have also ideological ins with the 1:54:52.400 --> 1:54:55.920 pik Ak So it's also interesting how this will work out. 1:54:55.960 --> 1:54:57.960 So in the past it was also always like the 1:54:57.960 --> 1:55:00.200 fighting between Turkey and the Pika k could threat than 1:55:00.200 --> 1:55:03.200 the SCF Assyria, but of sort of the other way 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:06.080 around that fighting between possible fighting in the future between 1:55:06.120 --> 1:55:09.240 Damascus and the curtain Syria, it could threaten the peace 1:55:09.280 --> 1:55:12.120 process in Turkey. Yeah, and erdo and he made this 1:55:12.240 --> 1:55:14.880 very big speech not a very long time ago where 1:55:14.920 --> 1:55:17.800 he mentioned that Turkey doesn't only want peace for the 1:55:17.840 --> 1:55:20.720 Curse in Turkey and for Alla Whites, also a religious 1:55:20.760 --> 1:55:23.240 minority in Turkey, but he was also talking that he 1:55:23.280 --> 1:55:25.960 wants peace for the Curse in Syria and also in Iraq, 1:55:25.960 --> 1:55:28.640 that they should also live like a prosperous life in Syria, 1:55:29.000 --> 1:55:31.280 and that they have good relations with the Sian government. 1:55:31.600 --> 1:55:33.560 So I think that's also a very interesting point that 1:55:33.640 --> 1:55:36.640 you don't see many articles that there's like this very 1:55:36.680 --> 1:55:40.280 big interlinkage between all these different tissues. 1:55:40.440 --> 1:55:44.120 Yeah, and I think Turkey has maintained that the SDF 1:55:44.320 --> 1:55:47.800 is the PKK right just with like a different badge, 1:55:48.280 --> 1:55:49.840 which is not the case. 1:55:49.960 --> 1:55:53.040 They share a lot of politics, but they're distinct. Turkey 1:55:53.040 --> 1:55:57.520 also has like extensive proxy forces in Syria that have 1:55:57.640 --> 1:56:02.480 been fighting with the SDF since I guess late well, 1:56:02.560 --> 1:56:05.560 I mean for years, but like in an expanded sense, 1:56:05.600 --> 1:56:09.080 since since the beginning of the fall of the Asad 1:56:09.200 --> 1:56:13.920 regime that we saw like probably seven or eight months ago. Now, No, 1:56:14.240 --> 1:56:17.520 it's a very complex situation. It's also as as we 1:56:17.600 --> 1:56:21.520 record this today on the fifteenth, Syria is a very 1:56:21.520 --> 1:56:24.919 diverse country and to add to all the groups you mentioned, 1:56:25.240 --> 1:56:30.720 there is currently fighting between the government and Druze militias. Right, 1:56:31.000 --> 1:56:33.240 can you explain a little bit about the situation there 1:56:33.360 --> 1:56:35.640 and the relevance of that. 1:56:36.280 --> 1:56:39.000 Well, I mean the Drus they are a religious community 1:56:39.160 --> 1:56:42.720 that are not same as the Sunni Muslims, and they 1:56:42.760 --> 1:56:47.240 control their own area on the border, the town called 1:56:47.280 --> 1:56:49.760 Sweda and the villages around it, and also they have 1:56:49.840 --> 1:56:53.120 some areas in Damascus where they have the presence. So 1:56:53.160 --> 1:56:56.400 the Drews basically during the time when the Asad regime 1:56:56.480 --> 1:57:00.000 still wasn't power, they didn't really like fight very high 1:57:00.280 --> 1:57:03.600 against the Assaut regime in the beginning, but they didn't 1:57:03.640 --> 1:57:07.120 allow the Assaut regime to recruit military recruit people in 1:57:07.160 --> 1:57:09.480 their area and they sort of tried to keep the 1:57:09.560 --> 1:57:11.560 regime out of their area. So during the civil war 1:57:11.640 --> 1:57:14.720 they were sort of semi autonomous, but not officially. And 1:57:14.840 --> 1:57:18.880 actually in the last years before the fall OFFASA, they 1:57:18.920 --> 1:57:22.640 were like a big protests in the Drews areas in 1:57:22.760 --> 1:57:25.480 support of the Syne Revolution and against the Assaut regime. 1:57:25.560 --> 1:57:27.600 So they were like very big protests in the Druz 1:57:27.640 --> 1:57:30.760 areas against the Assaut regime. So when the Assad regime 1:57:30.840 --> 1:57:34.760 was militarily weakening and the rebels from the other side 1:57:34.760 --> 1:57:38.080 of Syria they were attacking the Assad regime, the Drews 1:57:38.120 --> 1:57:40.880 they also joined the fight and they marched together with 1:57:41.240 --> 1:57:44.520 the Southern rebels. They marched on to Moscus, and they 1:57:44.560 --> 1:57:46.720 were actually the first one that entered the Moscus, not 1:57:47.360 --> 1:57:51.280 the ahmtal Shada or the HTS. Actually the first ones 1:57:51.320 --> 1:57:56.000 that entered the Moscus was the Southern rebels and the Drews. 1:57:55.440 --> 1:57:59.200 But there's this thing is that the Moscus wants to 1:57:59.240 --> 1:58:02.280 have this new regime or the new government, and the 1:58:02.320 --> 1:58:05.280 Mouscus they want to have this very centralized system, so 1:58:05.360 --> 1:58:08.080 they don't want the Drews to run their own armed 1:58:08.080 --> 1:58:12.120 groups and they have their own sort of local autonomy, 1:58:12.960 --> 1:58:15.800 so they have They have been fighting before between the 1:58:15.840 --> 1:58:19.480 Drews and the new authorities in Syria in areas near Damascus, 1:58:19.960 --> 1:58:22.720 but there was like a ceasefire and the fighting stopped. 1:58:23.440 --> 1:58:27.640 But recently there's also like historical tensions between these Arab 1:58:27.680 --> 1:58:30.640 bedouin tribes and the Drews in this area. So these 1:58:30.640 --> 1:58:34.640 areas are quite mixed. So there's actually this recent conflict. 1:58:34.680 --> 1:58:38.680 They started when Biduan tribes they they robbed like a 1:58:38.720 --> 1:58:41.680 merchant who was a Druce and then after that they 1:58:41.720 --> 1:58:46.160 were like mutual kidnapping, like tensions within both sides. And 1:58:46.200 --> 1:58:49.040 then basically, although the Moscus said they were neutral, the 1:58:49.120 --> 1:58:52.600 Muscus started to support these Bedouin groups against the Drus 1:58:52.600 --> 1:58:55.560 and started marching on on Sueda, which is the the 1:58:55.720 --> 1:58:58.240 drew stronghold on the border. 1:58:58.800 --> 1:59:01.040 And so actually there have been. 1:59:00.920 --> 1:59:03.520 Like a few days, not even a few days, but 1:59:03.640 --> 1:59:06.600 have been like a short period of fighting now and 1:59:06.720 --> 1:59:12.400 actually Damascus they entered this Zruze town of Sueda and 1:59:12.440 --> 1:59:14.560 they actually said, okay, we control the town now, and 1:59:14.600 --> 1:59:17.240 now we're going to withdraw the Seran army and then 1:59:17.280 --> 1:59:19.760 the internal security force is going to control the city. 1:59:20.160 --> 1:59:25.440 That very shortly after, Israel started bombing heavily the cern 1:59:26.400 --> 1:59:29.680 armed forces of the new Sirn government and then the 1:59:29.760 --> 1:59:32.760 Drews armed groups they sort of pushed back and they 1:59:32.800 --> 1:59:35.480 pushed out this internal security force out of the city. 1:59:35.520 --> 1:59:38.160 And now the Drews are according to many reports back 1:59:38.200 --> 1:59:41.680 in control of the city of Zuida. And now you 1:59:41.760 --> 1:59:45.000 see that just like what happened with the Alla Whites 1:59:45.520 --> 1:59:49.560 when there was this Osad regime remnants that had uprising 1:59:49.560 --> 1:59:52.920 against the new authorities, and then there were like these rebels. 1:59:52.920 --> 1:59:55.920 They were mobilized with mosk all over Syria and they 1:59:55.960 --> 1:59:59.760 went to the coast areas and they defeated those Assad regime, 2:00:00.280 --> 2:00:02.280 but they killed also a lot of civilians, some reports 2:00:02.480 --> 2:00:05.600 over fifteen hundred people. So what you now see is 2:00:05.600 --> 2:00:09.640 that the Damascus is against mobilizing those people with mosques 2:00:09.680 --> 2:00:12.960 to march on Zueda. But the difference is with the 2:00:12.960 --> 2:00:16.680 All Whites is that Israel also has DRUS, So there's 2:00:16.680 --> 2:00:20.960 also pressure on the Israeli government to support the Drews. 2:00:21.000 --> 2:00:23.560 So it's not only because of their strategic interests, it's 2:00:23.560 --> 2:00:26.280 also because they are Drews living in Israel itself that 2:00:27.040 --> 2:00:30.120 also have joined the Israelian army, so they're also pushing 2:00:30.200 --> 2:00:34.320 Israel for taking action. So you saw that today like Israel, 2:00:34.400 --> 2:00:36.640 they took a lot of they carried out a lot 2:00:36.640 --> 2:00:38.880 of air strikes, and the Drews that are basically back 2:00:39.400 --> 2:00:42.760 in control of most of the Sueda city, not of 2:00:42.840 --> 2:00:45.880 the whole area. But the fighting is not over yet. 2:00:46.160 --> 2:00:48.680 And then you also have different Ruis fractions. Some of 2:00:48.720 --> 2:00:51.720 them they have better relations with Damascus, the majority of 2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:54.800 them don't. So now we're going to see if there's 2:00:54.880 --> 2:00:56.880 going to be fighting, if the fighting is going to 2:00:56.920 --> 2:01:01.360 increase again, We've seen our reports of the HDS or 2:01:01.400 --> 2:01:04.280 that the Moscus government forces are using drones strikes by 2:01:04.320 --> 2:01:08.320 themselves on Thuice forces. So they're using basically the drones 2:01:08.360 --> 2:01:10.160 that they used to overthrow the sut regime. 2:01:10.320 --> 2:01:11.919 Okay, so yeah, that's the situation. 2:01:12.440 --> 2:01:15.640 Yeah, I think like the world stopped looking at Syria. 2:01:15.760 --> 2:01:17.480 I mean, I guess the world stop looking at Syria 2:01:17.560 --> 2:01:20.040 a while ago, like really, after the defeat of the 2:01:20.120 --> 2:01:25.000 Territorial Califate, it's been much harder to sell stories in 2:01:25.040 --> 2:01:28.280 big newspapers in the United States. But yeah, it's by 2:01:28.320 --> 2:01:31.000 no means, like the fighting is not over, and it 2:01:31.240 --> 2:01:37.320 leaves their SDF Western Kurdistan branch of this Kurdish movement right, 2:01:37.400 --> 2:01:40.680 like in as you said, a fairly perilous condition. 2:01:40.920 --> 2:01:41.360 Right, the. 2:01:42.840 --> 2:01:46.360 Damascus wants to centralize like they want to have they 2:01:46.360 --> 2:01:48.480 don't want to have independent they don't want to have 2:01:48.920 --> 2:01:54.080 like federated autonomy. The United States seems to be at 2:01:54.160 --> 2:01:57.520 least the United States envoy to Damascus seems to be 2:01:57.560 --> 2:02:00.880 making statements. It suggests that like the only way for 2:02:00.960 --> 2:02:15.200 it through centralization. On one hand, we have the Pepkklene 2:02:15.280 --> 2:02:17.680 and arm hand, we have the SDF in its difficult position. 2:02:18.480 --> 2:02:21.920 Where does this leave Like the Kurdish Freedom movement, I 2:02:21.960 --> 2:02:23.080 think this has been the thing that a lot of 2:02:23.080 --> 2:02:24.800 people all over the world have looked up to, right, 2:02:24.880 --> 2:02:28.560 people have, especially rish Ava, as this example that people 2:02:28.560 --> 2:02:31.760 could build something a place where freedom could exist in 2:02:31.800 --> 2:02:33.560 the middle of this terrible war in Syria. 2:02:34.280 --> 2:02:36.560 Do you think the movement's like in danger now? 2:02:37.160 --> 2:02:42.120 Well, I mean you have this new government in Syria actually, 2:02:42.120 --> 2:02:45.400 and in initially Trump administration was quite reluctant to have 2:02:45.520 --> 2:02:49.200 relations with the new authorities in Damascus because they were 2:02:49.480 --> 2:02:52.240 I mean, Jiolana used to be on a y Ahmad 2:02:52.280 --> 2:02:54.680 I used to be on a terrorist sanctional list. 2:02:54.880 --> 2:02:56.960 Yeah, there was a bounty for him at one point, 2:02:57.000 --> 2:02:57.560 it wasn't there. 2:02:57.720 --> 2:02:59.959 Yeah, But I think there was like a very intensive 2:03:00.080 --> 2:03:04.080 lobbying by some Gulf states and Turkey to basically remove 2:03:04.120 --> 2:03:09.000 the sanctions on an Ashata Julani, but also removed sanctions 2:03:09.040 --> 2:03:11.760 on Syria that the economic sanctions that were actually were 2:03:11.800 --> 2:03:12.560 on the Asaturgy. 2:03:13.080 --> 2:03:15.360 So I think the Trump administration changed their position. 2:03:15.440 --> 2:03:19.480 And also a new ambassador for Syria and Turkey was appointed, 2:03:19.520 --> 2:03:21.400 so he was not only the bassador Turkey but also 2:03:21.480 --> 2:03:24.120 for Syria, and he's basically echoing a lot of the 2:03:24.160 --> 2:03:28.320 points of the new authorities in Damascus that he was 2:03:28.360 --> 2:03:32.080 talking about one state, one army, one days, one days, 2:03:32.160 --> 2:03:35.080 and the SEF should be integrated and blah blah blah. 2:03:35.120 --> 2:03:38.680 So there was also recently there were talks between Damascus 2:03:38.680 --> 2:03:41.160 and the STF because in March they reached an agreement 2:03:41.720 --> 2:03:45.160 with Western support and they were trying to basically make 2:03:45.200 --> 2:03:49.400 a more finalized agreement in recently a few days ago, 2:03:50.040 --> 2:03:52.520 they had these talks in Damascus and the French were 2:03:52.560 --> 2:03:54.520 there and the Brits were there and Americans were there. 2:03:54.920 --> 2:03:57.040 But this agreement was not implemented. 2:03:57.080 --> 2:03:58.240 It didn't lead to anything. 2:03:59.160 --> 2:04:01.800 So it was that really didn't really work very well 2:04:01.800 --> 2:04:05.080 because the Moscus is insisting on this centralized state. And 2:04:05.120 --> 2:04:08.400 I was just listening to Kurdish sharing Kurdish official as 2:04:08.400 --> 2:04:11.160 she was also saying, like we don't want to separate 2:04:11.240 --> 2:04:13.480 from Syria, but we want to have some form of 2:04:13.960 --> 2:04:18.520 local councils and a decentralized Syria, not like a centralized Syria. 2:04:18.560 --> 2:04:20.880 And she was also talking about what happened to the 2:04:20.960 --> 2:04:23.360 Drews that it's not a very good example. 2:04:23.600 --> 2:04:24.680 For the future of Syria. 2:04:24.760 --> 2:04:26.800 Yeah, so I think definitely what you're saying that there 2:04:26.880 --> 2:04:30.280 is a sort of a threat because in the past 2:04:31.120 --> 2:04:34.800 was very supportive of the SEF in the fight against ISIS, 2:04:35.240 --> 2:04:38.040 although they didn't support so much their political project, but 2:04:38.600 --> 2:04:41.640 they supported them because they fought ISIS. And also they 2:04:41.680 --> 2:04:45.240 were keeping out Iranian backed malicious from areas like the Resor. 2:04:45.760 --> 2:04:47.880 But now you don't have me run anymore. In Syria, 2:04:47.960 --> 2:04:49.960 they were completely kicked out after the fall of the 2:04:49.960 --> 2:04:53.200 Asot regime. All these militias they have been disbanded or 2:04:53.280 --> 2:04:56.200 hiding or some of them actually now being used by 2:04:56.200 --> 2:04:59.560 the Muscus against the Jews. So now that argument is 2:04:59.560 --> 2:05:02.280 not there anymore, that you okay, we have the SDF, 2:05:02.280 --> 2:05:05.080 they keep out the run from the oil fields. Yeah, 2:05:05.120 --> 2:05:07.440 you could still argue you have still have the fight 2:05:07.480 --> 2:05:10.160 against ICES, I mean ICES is still thread. Yeah, but 2:05:10.560 --> 2:05:13.120 the Curts don't have that same leverage anymore as is 2:05:13.160 --> 2:05:14.960 in the past, that they said, Okay, we're the main 2:05:15.040 --> 2:05:18.120 ones fighting ices. We keep out the run from these 2:05:18.200 --> 2:05:21.000 areas because now you have the Moscus. The Moscus said, 2:05:21.040 --> 2:05:24.000 why the kurtshould do that? Like, let's us take over 2:05:24.040 --> 2:05:27.680 those prisons and the camps where you have these thousands 2:05:27.680 --> 2:05:31.080 of ISIS families and ices prisoners, and we don't need 2:05:31.120 --> 2:05:33.080 the Curts to run the ices. Well, we can do 2:05:33.160 --> 2:05:35.640 that for you. So I think that's now like the 2:05:35.680 --> 2:05:38.160 big issue is that the US seems to be more 2:05:38.160 --> 2:05:44.760 supporting the Moscus these diplomatically than the SDF, although military 2:05:44.840 --> 2:05:47.480 speaking that the support is still going on for the 2:05:47.520 --> 2:05:52.280 SDF until twenty twenty six in the last Pentagon budget 2:05:52.280 --> 2:05:55.760 which was not accepted yet they're still like millions of 2:05:55.800 --> 2:05:58.680 support for the SDF to maintain the prisons and this 2:05:58.800 --> 2:05:59.400 kind of stuff. 2:06:00.120 --> 2:06:02.280 I think it's it's it's a difficult sitution. 2:06:03.000 --> 2:06:07.600 Yeah, that these prisons like our whole and others right 2:06:07.680 --> 2:06:11.200 like they there, I guess kind of the only leverage 2:06:11.240 --> 2:06:14.240 the FDF has with the United States, where along with 2:06:14.280 --> 2:06:19.760 the continuing and somewhat increasing ISIS attacks, but that's still 2:06:20.200 --> 2:06:23.160 much less of a threat to the US than it 2:06:23.360 --> 2:06:25.880 was ten years ago, say right, like it's it's much less, 2:06:25.880 --> 2:06:26.760 so a significant thing. 2:06:27.440 --> 2:06:28.840 So like what is the. 2:06:29.080 --> 2:06:32.600 Status of those prisons that currently they're still guided by 2:06:32.600 --> 2:06:34.680 the SDF right, but the people aren't familiar. Can you 2:06:34.720 --> 2:06:39.840 just explain what those prisons consist of and like who's 2:06:39.840 --> 2:06:41.080 in there and who's guarding them. 2:06:41.600 --> 2:06:47.040 Well, so ISIS credit this jihadi state between twenty fourteen 2:06:47.080 --> 2:06:50.920 and twenty nineteen. But then the Kurdish that SDF they 2:06:50.960 --> 2:06:54.600 basically took most of the areas under ISIS control. They 2:06:54.640 --> 2:06:57.360 defeated basically ISIS with the support of the US, so 2:06:57.400 --> 2:07:01.160 they lost the territory and the last basically was for 2:07:01.240 --> 2:07:03.720 a small town called Bahus and the resor. 2:07:04.200 --> 2:07:06.560 So you had all these ISIS families there. 2:07:06.640 --> 2:07:09.760 And also there were like several ISIS foreign members that 2:07:09.800 --> 2:07:13.280 were captured, so you have the wives of ISIS fighters, 2:07:13.360 --> 2:07:16.200 and you also have ISIS fighters themselves that were captured 2:07:16.240 --> 2:07:19.360 during these battles. So all these people they were brought 2:07:19.400 --> 2:07:22.120 to camps. So I was there in Syria many times. 2:07:22.120 --> 2:07:25.160 For instance, during the battle for Raka, which was used 2:07:25.160 --> 2:07:27.960 to be the capital of the ISIS Caliphate, they were 2:07:28.000 --> 2:07:30.520 like bringing the Isis families and women to a camp 2:07:30.560 --> 2:07:33.440 in I Knowisa, But after that they moved most of 2:07:33.480 --> 2:07:35.880 those people to actually move almost all of them to 2:07:36.800 --> 2:07:40.320 the Roche camp and all hold camp in northern Syria 2:07:40.480 --> 2:07:45.000 in the Hassaka province. And also that includes foreigners. You 2:07:45.040 --> 2:07:50.560 can imagine people from Uzbekistan, from Uihus, from China, people 2:07:50.600 --> 2:07:55.480 from Turkey, French people, European people, so it's full of 2:07:55.600 --> 2:07:58.440 a lot of different people. And then the majority are 2:07:58.440 --> 2:08:02.400 actually Iraqis and Syrians. So the SCF they have this 2:08:02.520 --> 2:08:05.720 foul they a majority. Like a lot of people in 2:08:05.760 --> 2:08:08.240 those camps, they have been repatriated or they have to 2:08:08.280 --> 2:08:11.480 return to their homes. So I think those camps like 2:08:11.680 --> 2:08:14.080 a whole camp. Like the prison. It's not a prison, 2:08:14.080 --> 2:08:16.440 it's a camp. I think, like the number of people 2:08:16.480 --> 2:08:18.720 that are basically decreased almost fifty percent, but there are 2:08:18.720 --> 2:08:21.280 still a lot of people inside. But the prisons you 2:08:21.320 --> 2:08:25.120 have still all these Isis spiders that were in prison 2:08:25.200 --> 2:08:27.440 during the war, and a lot of them are foreigners, 2:08:27.440 --> 2:08:31.760 including Dutch, another country. You know, some countries they have 2:08:31.800 --> 2:08:35.040 returned there, they have returned their people there. So we 2:08:35.160 --> 2:08:38.120 have some people, you know America, they took back most 2:08:38.120 --> 2:08:41.280 of the families and the fighters, and they prosecute them 2:08:41.280 --> 2:08:43.800 in the US. But you also have countries that didn't 2:08:43.800 --> 2:08:46.040 bring back the fighters. For instance, they only brought back 2:08:46.080 --> 2:08:50.120 the woman. So that's the situation that all those people 2:08:50.160 --> 2:08:52.520 are still there. And it's actually what you mentioned. It's 2:08:52.640 --> 2:08:55.040 like one of the big reasons for support for the SDF, 2:08:55.400 --> 2:08:57.360 And it's also one of the reasons that the SDF 2:08:57.480 --> 2:09:01.320 is getting millions to keep those prisons in good shape 2:09:01.320 --> 2:09:03.760 because they have been also by isis to three those 2:09:03.800 --> 2:09:06.400 prisoners from those prisons basically. 2:09:06.480 --> 2:09:10.400 Yeah, in successful attempts in twenty twenty, twenty twenty two, 2:09:10.400 --> 2:09:13.000 I think it was when they had the last like 2:09:13.160 --> 2:09:16.880 major prison escape, which, yeah, it's a bad thing for 2:09:17.000 --> 2:09:20.640 our world if if all those all those people get out, 2:09:20.680 --> 2:09:25.080 and like you say, lots of European nations, I think 2:09:25.080 --> 2:09:27.800 it's something that I wish Americans had paid more attention 2:09:27.960 --> 2:09:31.400 to because the thing that European nations have done, the 2:09:31.480 --> 2:09:35.840 United Kingdom being a paramount example, is like rendered some 2:09:35.920 --> 2:09:40.520 of those people stateless. Right that they've removed there in 2:09:40.560 --> 2:09:43.880 this case, Shmima Bagoum is probably the most well known example. Right, 2:09:43.880 --> 2:09:46.280 they've removed her British passport and now she doesn't have 2:09:46.360 --> 2:09:49.400 a state, she's stateless. It's something that the US has 2:09:49.480 --> 2:09:53.520 recently done to people living in the United States, and 2:09:53.760 --> 2:09:56.640 like it does feel something as if you know that 2:09:56.680 --> 2:10:00.000 the president has been established and now it's being carried 2:10:00.160 --> 2:10:04.640 down and it's obviously deeply concerning to see it happening 2:10:04.640 --> 2:10:08.120 here after it happened there at which people had opposed 2:10:08.160 --> 2:10:09.640 it when it did well. 2:10:09.880 --> 2:10:12.840 I mean the US in the US itself in Syria 2:10:12.960 --> 2:10:16.400 was very a big advocate of bringing the people out. 2:10:16.440 --> 2:10:18.480 Yes, it was, Yeah, because it will make. 2:10:18.320 --> 2:10:19.560 It easier for them to withdraw. 2:10:19.640 --> 2:10:22.200 So they were actually pushing those countries that didn't want 2:10:22.240 --> 2:10:25.400 to bring back. There are nationals to basically bring them back, 2:10:25.440 --> 2:10:28.400 like Western countries, the UK and others. Yeah, but some 2:10:28.480 --> 2:10:31.960 of these countries were actually forced by court orders or others. 2:10:32.000 --> 2:10:33.960 But a lot of these counties were actually quite reluctant 2:10:34.000 --> 2:10:36.400 to bring them back because they were afraid of like 2:10:36.720 --> 2:10:39.040 security risk and stuff, or that they will be released 2:10:39.080 --> 2:10:43.200 quite quickly and then they would again like be active 2:10:43.400 --> 2:10:45.560 and judist activities. 2:10:45.760 --> 2:10:45.960 Yeah. 2:10:46.040 --> 2:10:48.200 Yeah, so US was very very so. 2:10:48.280 --> 2:10:51.040 I remember that the US was even offering like members 2:10:51.120 --> 2:10:54.520 of this Coalition against ISIS, which was created in twenty fourteen. 2:10:54.920 --> 2:10:57.120 Likes you said, if you cannot bring them yourself, I 2:10:57.120 --> 2:10:59.280 mean we can. Our military can help you to bring 2:10:59.320 --> 2:11:02.360 those people out. If you think that you it's it's 2:11:02.400 --> 2:11:04.800 difficult for you to go to Syria and pick those 2:11:05.120 --> 2:11:06.840 nationals up from your accounts. 2:11:07.240 --> 2:11:10.080 Yeah, yeah, been pretty unsuccessful, like in a lot of 2:11:10.120 --> 2:11:12.240 well in some European cases they have, but still yeah, 2:11:12.280 --> 2:11:16.440 lots of them utterly refusing to do it. I wonder 2:11:16.520 --> 2:11:19.120 then as we finish up here, right, like we spoke 2:11:19.160 --> 2:11:23.760 about this PKK disarmament, obviously it's a symbolic disarmament, right 2:11:23.760 --> 2:11:25.720 there is still I don't quite know how big the 2:11:25.840 --> 2:11:28.560 hPG is, but it's much bigger than thirty people. And 2:11:28.600 --> 2:11:31.520 then the weapons they laid down were like a very 2:11:31.560 --> 2:11:36.360 small percentage of their weapons. Were they just burning like kalashnikov? 2:11:36.440 --> 2:11:38.720 So did they burn like larger weapons too? 2:11:39.520 --> 2:11:43.000 No, it was just our personal COLASGIC calls basically, Okay, 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:47.160 So I mean it was also like more symbolic symbolic ceremony, 2:11:47.360 --> 2:11:48.600 like we are willing to give up. 2:11:48.720 --> 2:11:48.920 Yeah. 2:11:49.080 --> 2:11:51.360 But the thing is that also it's still not clear 2:11:51.400 --> 2:11:53.320 what happened to those thirty people. 2:11:53.480 --> 2:11:55.280 Are they going to go back to Turkey. 2:11:55.240 --> 2:11:56.320 That's what I wanted to ask. 2:11:56.440 --> 2:11:58.840 Yeah, are they going to stay in Iraqi Kurdistan and 2:11:58.880 --> 2:12:01.800 find the job there, because you have people like that 2:12:01.800 --> 2:12:03.800 in Iraqi curstand that used to be with the Pigger 2:12:03.880 --> 2:12:06.480 k and that now they work in I don't know, 2:12:06.560 --> 2:12:09.560 in media or construction sector or entertainment sector. You have 2:12:09.640 --> 2:12:13.120 people like that, but there's not much clarity on that. 2:12:13.200 --> 2:12:16.400 But I think also that's because they're waiting on Turkey 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:20.120 to make possible constitutional steps, you know, to see what 2:12:20.160 --> 2:12:22.560 Turkey is going to do, because for instance, Turkey could 2:12:22.560 --> 2:12:25.520 offer an amnesty or these kind of things, then those 2:12:25.520 --> 2:12:27.480 people could return. And also some of them were saying 2:12:27.520 --> 2:12:29.680 like now it's the end of weapons, but we still 2:12:29.720 --> 2:12:31.600 want to be involved in politics. 2:12:31.160 --> 2:12:32.720 Right through the political party. 2:12:32.880 --> 2:12:35.760 So it's also possible that those people want to go 2:12:35.840 --> 2:12:38.480 back to Turkey and basically take part in Kurdish politics 2:12:39.240 --> 2:12:42.800 or Turkish politics to be more truged in Turkey. So 2:12:42.880 --> 2:12:44.760 I think it's a little bit too early to say 2:12:44.800 --> 2:12:48.000 what happens with those people because I remember also if 2:12:48.040 --> 2:12:50.240 I very much corrected, they're also having peace process that 2:12:50.280 --> 2:12:53.120 basically people have given basically went to the border and 2:12:53.160 --> 2:12:55.680 give themselves up to Turkey. But that didn't happen now, 2:12:55.720 --> 2:12:58.080 so it's a bit different than in the past. But 2:12:58.120 --> 2:13:00.480 it seems that the Turkish government was very happy with 2:13:00.720 --> 2:13:01.959 the ceremony. 2:13:02.000 --> 2:13:03.320 They didn't complain about it. 2:13:03.520 --> 2:13:06.600 So okay, yeah, yeah, I wondered what happened. 2:13:06.600 --> 2:13:09.800 So there's guerrillas or former guerrillas I suppose, who laid 2:13:09.840 --> 2:13:12.240 down their weapons at the end of the ceremony. They 2:13:12.320 --> 2:13:16.120 just kind of returned to the mountains or whatever. We 2:13:16.160 --> 2:13:18.160 don't know what will happen with them now. 2:13:18.200 --> 2:13:21.480 That's that's not clear to me because there are still 2:13:21.480 --> 2:13:24.400 some unanswered questions, like what you mentioned now, like what 2:13:24.480 --> 2:13:27.080 those thirty people did, Yeah, what those people are going 2:13:27.160 --> 2:13:27.680 to do now? 2:13:27.880 --> 2:13:30.280 So right, there's a lot of people, and it's a 2:13:30.320 --> 2:13:34.240 lot of people, some of whom have spent decades as 2:13:34.400 --> 2:13:37.720 cadra of the revolution, right that they have they haven't 2:13:37.720 --> 2:13:40.280 really known life outside of the revolution for a very 2:13:40.320 --> 2:13:40.880 long time. 2:13:41.480 --> 2:13:43.320 Yeah, so it's so a bit difficult for them to 2:13:43.600 --> 2:13:47.720 return to civilian life because I mean, because that's they 2:13:47.760 --> 2:13:49.920 probably joined when they're quite young. And I think i's 2:13:49.920 --> 2:13:52.120 also the profiles of the people of those thirty people 2:13:52.160 --> 2:13:54.040 will burn their weapons. That a lot of them they 2:13:54.120 --> 2:13:56.360 joined in the nineties. Wow, so they have been in 2:13:56.640 --> 2:14:00.000 they have been in the mountains for a very long time. Yeah, 2:14:00.200 --> 2:14:02.480 I mean some of them were young, but there were 2:14:02.520 --> 2:14:05.880 also older people among them. But definitely it's going to 2:14:05.920 --> 2:14:08.000 be a question what will happen with those people, although 2:14:08.480 --> 2:14:10.960 I mean they were also talked that some leadership of 2:14:11.400 --> 2:14:14.960 the armed Pikak movement might go to Europe and get 2:14:15.000 --> 2:14:17.800 asylum there, yeah, instead. 2:14:17.480 --> 2:14:18.520 Of going back to Turkey. 2:14:18.960 --> 2:14:19.440 Yeah. 2:14:19.560 --> 2:14:21.320 You know, you have also a lot of courage the 2:14:21.360 --> 2:14:25.040 asport or organizations active there, so they could like basically 2:14:25.200 --> 2:14:26.520 embrace those people. 2:14:27.040 --> 2:14:29.880 But they're still listed as a foreign terrorist organization in 2:14:29.920 --> 2:14:31.280 most two Yeah exactly. 2:14:31.400 --> 2:14:33.840 I mean, for instance, they probably would want to have 2:14:33.920 --> 2:14:37.160 something like what the Syrian president have now Ahmatoshada that 2:14:37.240 --> 2:14:40.080 he used to be rested as a sanctioned as a 2:14:40.160 --> 2:14:42.960 terrorist organization and then to have that removed. But I'm 2:14:43.000 --> 2:14:45.320 sure that that's not on the table anytime soon. 2:14:45.360 --> 2:14:47.280 But that happened with the HTS. 2:14:47.280 --> 2:14:50.080 But also it happened for instance musidin Hulk, an Ranian 2:14:50.080 --> 2:14:53.760 opposition group, they also got delisted. So it's technically as possible, 2:14:54.480 --> 2:14:57.000 but I think we are like in a very early 2:14:57.080 --> 2:14:59.720 stage of the peace process. So that's why I think 2:14:59.760 --> 2:15:02.400 it's to take time before we have more clarity and 2:15:03.320 --> 2:15:06.160 some of these answers that questions you ask, now, I 2:15:06.160 --> 2:15:08.360 mean most of the people that attended the ceremony didn't 2:15:08.360 --> 2:15:10.000 have an answer to that too, because there was not 2:15:10.240 --> 2:15:12.880 much clarity on that because it was just a ceremony. 2:15:12.920 --> 2:15:15.600 There was like a statement. Journals were not able to 2:15:15.640 --> 2:15:17.800 talk to most of the journalists. I mean there were 2:15:18.040 --> 2:15:21.080 there was like some statement in some Kurdish media, but 2:15:21.120 --> 2:15:23.120 in general, like they were not able to talk to 2:15:23.200 --> 2:15:25.400 those fighters, like now, what are you going to do? 2:15:25.440 --> 2:15:28.040 There was not like access to those thirty people that 2:15:28.080 --> 2:15:29.040 burn their weapons. 2:15:29.120 --> 2:15:30.520 Yeah, so it. 2:15:30.560 --> 2:15:33.400 Was like sort of quite very much controlled ceremony. It 2:15:33.440 --> 2:15:36.440 was very difficult to report on it, basically, which is 2:15:36.520 --> 2:15:38.880 very different from the previous preat process when it was 2:15:38.960 --> 2:15:41.080 much more open. Yeah, but that time there was not 2:15:41.200 --> 2:15:43.440 like forty fighters giving up their weapons. They just had 2:15:43.480 --> 2:15:45.920 like sort of a press conferences what we're going to do, 2:15:46.440 --> 2:15:49.000 and that was very different than what happened now. 2:15:49.360 --> 2:15:52.240 Yeah, yeah, it gets it's because just to keep watching 2:15:52.280 --> 2:15:56.320 it's fascinating to watch it unfold like I was in 2:15:56.760 --> 2:15:59.120 Curdish Down a year and a half ago, and it 2:15:59.160 --> 2:16:02.120 is competit. See, the situation is completely different likewise in 2:16:02.120 --> 2:16:04.800 the whole of Syria. So yeah, it's fascinating to watch. 2:16:04.880 --> 2:16:07.880 I'm sure if people want to know more about it. 2:16:07.960 --> 2:16:11.680 You're very good at reporting on this. You often post 2:16:11.760 --> 2:16:14.800 on Twitter about the situation, and you write for a 2:16:14.840 --> 2:16:17.600 number of outlets, So how can people follow your work? 2:16:18.160 --> 2:16:20.839 Well, the best place to follow my workers on Twitter 2:16:21.440 --> 2:16:26.160 on its X because I'm quite active there, but also 2:16:26.200 --> 2:16:30.000 I write for places like Middle East I something thanks 2:16:30.040 --> 2:16:33.520 like watching the Institute New a Liance Institute. I also 2:16:33.560 --> 2:16:37.000 write for a Kurdish magazine called Kurtis Tank Chronicle, and 2:16:37.080 --> 2:16:40.359 also I pitched for other websites, so I'm quite active 2:16:40.480 --> 2:16:45.080 on different issues, but mostly focused on things related to Kurts, 2:16:45.120 --> 2:16:47.560 so mostly stuff related to Iran, Turkey, Syria. 2:16:48.480 --> 2:16:51.080 It's yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us. 2:16:51.080 --> 2:16:52.800 We really appreciate your insight. 2:16:53.080 --> 2:17:12.080 Jery, welcome, my friend. 2:17:17.000 --> 2:17:20.160 This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly 2:17:20.200 --> 2:17:23.120 newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 2:17:23.120 --> 2:17:25.600 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today 2:17:25.680 --> 2:17:29.760 I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. Yes, 2:17:29.920 --> 2:17:32.080 this episode we are covering the week of July nine 2:17:32.120 --> 2:17:35.520 to July sixteen. What's going on, my boys and in 2:17:35.560 --> 2:17:39.760 some cases gals and in some cases days that were 2:17:39.840 --> 2:17:40.600 its or whatever? 2:17:40.879 --> 2:17:43.280 And the answer for everyone is ed. 2:17:45.800 --> 2:17:52.400 Hooray in some cases my gals. I guess let's start 2:17:52.560 --> 2:17:55.439 by talking about Jeffrey Epstein. 2:17:55.879 --> 2:18:00.600 That's what we always do, Jepstein. Yeah, you know what, Garrison, 2:18:01.080 --> 2:18:03.720 I hear You've got some bars to drop about Epstein. 2:18:04.160 --> 2:18:08.560 Jesus all right. 2:18:08.440 --> 2:18:10.000 Well, that's that's my work for the day. 2:18:10.360 --> 2:18:16.800 Brief brief summary. Previously on this show, we talked about 2:18:16.800 --> 2:18:20.360 how Patel and a Bungino, the head of the FBI, 2:18:21.040 --> 2:18:23.880 have previously come under fire from micro supporters for saying 2:18:23.879 --> 2:18:27.360 that Epstein really did kill himself. And this has kind 2:18:27.360 --> 2:18:30.120 of been bubbling in the base for a while because 2:18:30.720 --> 2:18:33.000 they used this as one of their main like campaign 2:18:33.040 --> 2:18:35.560 and podcast talking points for the past four years. 2:18:35.840 --> 2:18:38.800 Yeah, Bongino was a huge. 2:18:38.640 --> 2:18:42.760 Elstein, I mean, and like Patel's like the QAnon guy, 2:18:42.959 --> 2:18:46.200 like he's both these guys have have made their careers 2:18:46.240 --> 2:18:49.200 the past four years, like heavily about this topic. And 2:18:49.240 --> 2:18:51.199 now they are, you know, backtracking on a whole bunch 2:18:51.240 --> 2:18:53.879 of the previous you know claims or you know, just 2:18:53.959 --> 2:18:56.680 asking questions type stuff that they did the past few years. 2:18:57.240 --> 2:19:00.119 And like a week and a half ago, a memo 2:19:00.200 --> 2:19:03.280 from the Department of Justice announced that it was closing 2:19:03.280 --> 2:19:06.039 the investigation and claiming that there was no client list 2:19:06.720 --> 2:19:11.920 for Jeffrey Epstein, despite Pambondi herself boasting about having Epstein's 2:19:11.920 --> 2:19:15.520 client list on her desk only a few months ago. 2:19:16.400 --> 2:19:19.680 This caused a huge freakout in the MEGA world. There 2:19:19.720 --> 2:19:24.160 was conflicting reports that Bondi or Patel or Bungino might 2:19:24.200 --> 2:19:28.959 be resigning like in protest of this memo. A lot 2:19:29.000 --> 2:19:32.879 of like uncertainty over what was real. And then on 2:19:33.000 --> 2:19:37.119 July twelfth, Trump had to speak his own truth social 2:19:38.000 --> 2:19:40.240 okay quote, what's going on with my boys and in 2:19:40.280 --> 2:19:44.199 some cases gals. They're all going after Attorney General. Pambondi's 2:19:44.200 --> 2:19:47.360 doing a fantastic job. We're on one team Mega, and 2:19:47.440 --> 2:19:50.199 I don't like what's happening. We have a perfect administration, 2:19:50.320 --> 2:19:52.920 the talk of the world, and selfish people are trying 2:19:52.920 --> 2:19:55.600 to hurt it all over a guy who never dies, 2:19:56.160 --> 2:19:59.960 Jeffrey Epstein. For years, it's Epstein over and over again. 2:20:00.120 --> 2:20:03.160 Why are we giving publicity to files written by Obama, 2:20:03.240 --> 2:20:06.560 Crooked Hillary, Komy Brennan and the losers and criminals of 2:20:06.560 --> 2:20:09.080 the Biden administration who conned the world with the Russia 2:20:09.120 --> 2:20:12.560 RUSSA Russia hoax, fifty one intelligence agents, and the Laptop 2:20:12.600 --> 2:20:16.120 from Hell all caps. They created the Epstein files, just 2:20:16.160 --> 2:20:19.640 like they created the fake Hillary Clinton Christopher Steele dossier 2:20:20.000 --> 2:20:22.720 that they used on me. And now my so called 2:20:22.959 --> 2:20:28.040 friends and quotes are playing right into their hands. So 2:20:28.280 --> 2:20:31.039 this was right after claiming that the Epstein files did 2:20:31.080 --> 2:20:33.920 not exist, that these things are not actually real, and 2:20:33.959 --> 2:20:36.400 then Trump's talking about how they are real but they 2:20:36.400 --> 2:20:40.200 are in fact written by his enemies. Despite the most 2:20:40.200 --> 2:20:44.720 recent investigation into Jeffrey Epstein starting at twenty nineteen, when 2:20:44.879 --> 2:20:47.800 if you remember, Donald Trump was the president. 2:20:47.520 --> 2:20:50.840 Well Garson the defining political question of the modern areas 2:20:50.879 --> 2:20:52.960 who was president in twenty twenty, So I can see 2:20:52.959 --> 2:20:53.640 it moving back. 2:20:55.000 --> 2:20:57.920 There's no answer to this question, you know, We just can't. 2:20:58.240 --> 2:21:00.600 We don't know, we will never know. There's no way 2:21:00.680 --> 2:21:03.320 to prove it. Our records don't reach back that far. 2:21:03.520 --> 2:21:06.880 We just simply can't say who president was. The mists 2:21:06.959 --> 2:21:10.160 of time have shaded over so. 2:21:10.240 --> 2:21:13.800 Much of modern domestic politics is about confusion over who 2:21:13.920 --> 2:21:17.640 was president in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty when it 2:21:17.680 --> 2:21:20.160 was Donald Trump. He ends by saying, quote, let's not 2:21:20.280 --> 2:21:24.400 waste time and energy on Jeffrey Epstein, somebody nobody cares about. 2:21:26.760 --> 2:21:31.040 So funny, you could tell he's so far gone too. 2:21:31.280 --> 2:21:35.359 He sounds scared because he never fully understood this stuff. 2:21:35.840 --> 2:21:39.440 Like there's things that he understands instinctually, and there's things 2:21:39.480 --> 2:21:42.080 that he never really got. And because he was Epstein's friend, 2:21:42.440 --> 2:21:44.920 he never really got why this was so central. He 2:21:45.320 --> 2:21:47.960 kind of got that it was, but he also kind 2:21:48.000 --> 2:21:50.039 of assumed, like, well, if I tell everyone. 2:21:49.720 --> 2:21:51.680 To shut the fuck up, they will, They're gonna be 2:21:51.840 --> 2:21:52.160 look up. 2:21:52.240 --> 2:21:55.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's how he's done things for 2:21:55.160 --> 2:21:57.480 the past like twelve years, and it's more often than 2:21:57.520 --> 2:22:00.680 not worked really well for him. But this has become 2:22:00.720 --> 2:22:03.640 such a load bearing aspect of like the maga self image, 2:22:03.680 --> 2:22:05.160 Like this is like, you know, this type of stuff 2:22:05.200 --> 2:22:09.320 is what druve QAnon essentially like a cult. He and 2:22:09.400 --> 2:22:12.240 he never fully understood why QAnon was really a thing. 2:22:12.320 --> 2:22:14.000 He never like truly grasped it. 2:22:14.280 --> 2:22:18.320 That's why he never really he started more recently doing 2:22:18.360 --> 2:22:21.520 some QAnon signposting, But yeah, he clearly never fully got 2:22:21.760 --> 2:22:25.440 why it was happening. Yeah, like it was convenient. 2:22:26.000 --> 2:22:27.800 And now the monster that he and his you know, 2:22:27.959 --> 2:22:31.480 quote unquote friends have helped create all these years is 2:22:31.520 --> 2:22:33.520 starting to nibble on his own leg. 2:22:33.800 --> 2:22:34.039 Yeah. 2:22:34.360 --> 2:22:38.080 This past weekend, influencers like Tim Poole, Benny Johnson, and 2:22:38.200 --> 2:22:41.760 Charlie Kirk all started to kind of turn on Trump 2:22:42.040 --> 2:22:45.520 on a play a quick video from disgraced BuzzFeed writer 2:22:45.680 --> 2:22:49.199 Benny Johnson now right wing podcaster by. 2:22:49.040 --> 2:22:54.160 Admitting that the Epstein files are real and have been written, 2:22:54.480 --> 2:22:56.880 and that you've read them and you don't like their 2:22:56.920 --> 2:23:00.760 contents and they were written by your enemies. It doesn't 2:23:00.800 --> 2:23:04.840 make It doesn't make the most compelling case. 2:23:07.120 --> 2:23:08.160 As far as I'm concerned. 2:23:10.680 --> 2:23:16.360 Holy moly, holy moly, holy moly. You had to hear first. 2:23:17.600 --> 2:23:20.000 There was a lot of this stuff over the weekend, 2:23:20.120 --> 2:23:22.959 like this, this whole like podcasting Gohert, which which so 2:23:23.000 --> 2:23:26.400 many people, you know, credit to Trump's great success in 2:23:26.440 --> 2:23:29.840 twenty twenty four all started asking questions and we're kind 2:23:29.879 --> 2:23:32.160 of confused. I don't know why they would be. It's 2:23:32.160 --> 2:23:35.000 been very well documented that Trump was friends with Epstein 2:23:35.040 --> 2:23:39.119 for a long time. But this time this thing finally 2:23:39.160 --> 2:23:40.040 broke containment. 2:23:40.160 --> 2:23:40.280 Yea. 2:23:40.440 --> 2:23:42.160 And when you have like fucking. 2:23:42.000 --> 2:23:44.920 Charlie Kirks, someone who's basically like one of the GOP's 2:23:45.000 --> 2:23:48.800 like top narrative shepherds essentially, and when you have him 2:23:48.840 --> 2:23:53.840 like questioning the president's own story and credibility, that's like 2:23:53.879 --> 2:23:55.920 a pretty big shake up in the mega world. 2:23:56.360 --> 2:23:56.560 Yeah. 2:23:56.680 --> 2:23:59.880 Yeah, it's not really explicable. There's no plausible deniability. 2:24:00.040 --> 2:24:00.480 Yeah. 2:24:00.680 --> 2:24:02.560 I think for a long time this has been like 2:24:02.920 --> 2:24:07.320 the load bearing cognitive dissonance for this entire movement. And 2:24:07.520 --> 2:24:10.160 I actually do think when Elon first was just like 2:24:10.600 --> 2:24:13.120 he's in the files, I think that was the first 2:24:13.160 --> 2:24:15.640 moment that all these people were suddenly allowed to do this. 2:24:15.760 --> 2:24:17.600 That was the first domino. Definitely. 2:24:17.959 --> 2:24:20.440 Yeah, he cracked the shut on it. 2:24:20.440 --> 2:24:23.760 And I think that has like torn open this rift 2:24:24.120 --> 2:24:26.360 that has allowed all of these people who previously their 2:24:26.360 --> 2:24:31.480 cognitivessonance has sustained them through a decade of like, yeah, 2:24:32.400 --> 2:24:35.480 of our dear rulers obviously friends with the pedophile life. 2:24:35.720 --> 2:24:38.839 I'll say it, critical support even. 2:24:43.000 --> 2:24:44.360 Let them fight, Let them fight. 2:24:45.000 --> 2:24:47.959 So the next move that the geniuses of the Trump 2:24:47.959 --> 2:24:51.240 administration tried to pull to to settle things down was 2:24:51.320 --> 2:24:56.440 released the raw footage, the missing raw footage outside Jeffrey 2:24:56.440 --> 2:24:59.360 Epstein's sale, to finally finally close the book on this 2:24:59.440 --> 2:25:02.879 jeffre EPs didn't kill himself moment, and they released it, 2:25:02.920 --> 2:25:05.920 and everyone realized, you know what, They're right, there's nothing 2:25:05.920 --> 2:25:07.760 more to look into here. Case closed. 2:25:08.040 --> 2:25:10.400 You know, probably we all rose up as if with 2:25:10.440 --> 2:25:14.000 one voice to say, this doesn't seem suspicious. 2:25:14.920 --> 2:25:19.200 So Wired found that this quote unquote raw video was 2:25:19.240 --> 2:25:22.960 actually edited and had it nearly three minutes removed. 2:25:23.720 --> 2:25:27.280 Sure, yeah, but look it does, doesn't Jeffrey Epstein deserve 2:25:27.400 --> 2:25:29.840 some privacy, you know, three minutes on his own. 2:25:29.920 --> 2:25:32.520 It was a really personal decision for somebody to take. 2:25:32.600 --> 2:25:34.280 And I yeah, exactly. 2:25:35.600 --> 2:25:38.480 So no, after claiming that like they've released this, this 2:25:38.480 --> 2:25:41.600 this completely, this is completely you know, ripped straight from 2:25:41.959 --> 2:25:44.959 the hard drive raw footage. Uh, it showed that it 2:25:45.000 --> 2:25:48.879 was edited in Adobe premiere and has these missing missing 2:25:48.920 --> 2:25:52.680 three minutes. Pam Bondi initially tried to say that there's 2:25:52.760 --> 2:25:56.040 usually a minute missing from footage because of a computer 2:25:56.200 --> 2:25:59.320 reset that happens every night at the same time, which 2:25:59.400 --> 2:26:04.600 was that immediate proven incorrect by the by there being 2:26:04.920 --> 2:26:06.879 way more than one minute missing. 2:26:07.040 --> 2:26:10.840 Yeah, three minutes. I'm sorry. They're simply like, I came 2:26:10.879 --> 2:26:13.080 into this as like, I don't know what happened, you know, 2:26:13.200 --> 2:26:14.840 maybe he killed himself. 2:26:14.879 --> 2:26:15.280 Maybe, I. 2:26:17.320 --> 2:26:20.400 Mean, and now I'm now I'm I'm I am sincerely 2:26:20.480 --> 2:26:24.480 more on the well, something there's something there height say. 2:26:24.560 --> 2:26:27.000 I will say, there's one thing that I think this 2:26:27.080 --> 2:26:29.960 does definitively rule out, which is that it was definitely 2:26:30.000 --> 2:26:35.440 not the Clinton crime family. We've ruled out one possible. 2:26:35.480 --> 2:26:37.760 Now you see this, This brings me to a theory 2:26:37.800 --> 2:26:40.000 that I have been working on for the last couple 2:26:40.000 --> 2:26:42.680 of days, and I think this is this is really 2:26:42.680 --> 2:26:46.200 important to get out to people. So obviously, the other 2:26:46.240 --> 2:26:48.680 big statement that Donald Trump made in the last week 2:26:48.840 --> 2:26:50.720 was that his uncle, who used to be a professor 2:26:50.760 --> 2:26:54.000 at M I T, had taught Ted Kaczinsky and talked 2:26:54.000 --> 2:26:56.240 to him about Ted Kazinski and been like, yay, you know, 2:26:56.280 --> 2:26:59.480 there's a real thin line between genius and insanity. And 2:26:59.680 --> 2:27:02.200 then it came out that Donald Trump's uncle, who Todd 2:27:02.200 --> 2:27:04.280 at MIT, died in nineteen and eighty five, and of 2:27:04.320 --> 2:27:08.720 course the unibomber was not publicly identified until nineteen ninety six. Now, 2:27:08.760 --> 2:27:12.039 some people have interpreted this as Donald Trump lying, which 2:27:12.080 --> 2:27:14.880 I think we can all agree doesn't seem like something 2:27:14.920 --> 2:27:18.959 he would do. So the only other explanation is that 2:27:19.000 --> 2:27:21.840 Trump and his family knew who the unibomber was for 2:27:21.879 --> 2:27:24.360 more than a decade and kept it hidden from the 2:27:24.400 --> 2:27:27.880 rest of the United States. Now, what is the unibomber 2:27:27.920 --> 2:27:31.800 and Donald Chuck Trump have in common? Obviously two people 2:27:31.800 --> 2:27:34.800 who were treated very unfairly by the Clintons, right, I 2:27:34.800 --> 2:27:37.520 think we can all agree on that, you know, so 2:27:38.120 --> 2:27:39.119 it all ties together. 2:27:39.400 --> 2:27:41.680 Both are possibly victims of m k Ultra. 2:27:42.000 --> 2:27:42.440 That's right. 2:27:43.160 --> 2:27:47.560 No, his little Tuesday speech in Pittsburgh was quite bizarre. 2:27:48.040 --> 2:27:51.279 Not just that Kasinski never went to MIT. 2:27:52.600 --> 2:27:54.360 It's gonna say to my notedge, no, no, no. 2:27:54.240 --> 2:27:58.320 No, just did not go to the university that doctor 2:27:58.440 --> 2:27:59.720 John Trump was at. 2:28:00.240 --> 2:28:02.240 I will say this is the first one of these 2:28:02.240 --> 2:28:05.080 stories that this genuinely sounds like an Alex Jones story, 2:28:05.120 --> 2:28:07.039 Like this is the kind of story that Alex Jones 2:28:07.080 --> 2:28:08.519 tells about his uncles. 2:28:08.200 --> 2:28:08.800 All the time. 2:28:09.200 --> 2:28:11.560 Yeah, they ain't. They ain't talking to Alex Jones right now. 2:28:11.959 --> 2:28:12.640 No, definitely. 2:28:13.120 --> 2:28:15.960 But it's like persona non grotra in the White House currently. 2:28:17.120 --> 2:28:18.760 It is a truly bizarre ramble. 2:28:19.240 --> 2:28:21.039 I have to take it off to brag just for 2:28:21.080 --> 2:28:25.440 a second, because when I first heard about AI, you know, it's. 2:28:25.280 --> 2:28:28.520 Not my thing. Although my uncle was at MIT, one 2:28:28.560 --> 2:28:29.359 of the great. 2:28:29.080 --> 2:28:33.480 Professors fifty one years whatever, who longest serving professor in the. 2:28:33.400 --> 2:28:34.720 History of MIT. 2:28:34.959 --> 2:28:39.720 Three degrees in nuclear chemical and math. 2:28:40.280 --> 2:28:41.160 It's a smart man. 2:28:42.040 --> 2:28:43.680 Kazinski was one of his students. 2:28:43.680 --> 2:28:44.960 Do you know who Kazinsky was? 2:28:45.400 --> 2:28:48.759 There's very little difference between a madman and a genius. 2:28:49.120 --> 2:28:51.560 But Kazinsk said, what kind of a student was he? 2:28:51.680 --> 2:28:54.520 Uncle John? Doctor John Trump? He said, what kind of 2:28:54.520 --> 2:28:55.000 a student? 2:28:55.600 --> 2:28:55.880 Man? 2:28:55.879 --> 2:28:57.959 He said, seriously? Good? 2:28:58.360 --> 2:29:01.240 He said, he'd correct You go around correcting everybody. But 2:29:01.720 --> 2:29:04.520 it didn't work out too well for him. Didn't work 2:29:04.560 --> 2:29:05.199 out too well. 2:29:05.240 --> 2:29:06.600 But it's interesting in life. 2:29:07.720 --> 2:29:09.600 Didn't work out too well for him. 2:29:09.840 --> 2:29:14.760 Shared didn't Christ To be fair, he never he never 2:29:14.840 --> 2:29:15.800 gives a first name. 2:29:15.920 --> 2:29:18.040 It could have been another, It could be a different 2:29:18.040 --> 2:29:19.040 good This is true. 2:29:19.120 --> 2:29:19.480 James. 2:29:19.640 --> 2:29:24.440 Yeah, yeah, people, I also god that whole thing, just 2:29:24.920 --> 2:29:29.080 the undergrady goes around correcting everyone cases. 2:29:29.240 --> 2:29:29.480 Yeah. 2:29:30.560 --> 2:29:33.200 But back to Epstein, the thing that Trump doesn't want 2:29:33.280 --> 2:29:34.120 us talking about. 2:29:34.520 --> 2:29:34.960 That's right. 2:29:35.360 --> 2:29:40.520 By Monday, some of this, like Influencer podcasting class, started 2:29:40.560 --> 2:29:44.879 to kind of close ranks. The skepticism and frustration that 2:29:44.879 --> 2:29:48.800 they expressed over the weekend subsided and they started to 2:29:48.840 --> 2:29:52.160 repeat the party line. Charlie Kirk said on his show, 2:29:52.240 --> 2:29:55.480 quote plenty was said this last weekend at our event 2:29:55.800 --> 2:29:59.400 about Epstein. Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein for the 2:29:59.440 --> 2:30:02.760 time being. I'm gonna trust my friends in the administration. 2:30:03.000 --> 2:30:04.920 I'm gonna trust my friends in the government to do 2:30:04.959 --> 2:30:07.720 what needs to be done, solve it balls in their hands. 2:30:08.000 --> 2:30:10.520 I've said plenty this last weekend. So if you guys 2:30:10.560 --> 2:30:13.800 want to see my commentary on it, that's fine. Everyone 2:30:13.800 --> 2:30:17.080 knows my opinion on the Epstein thing. The messaging of fumble. 2:30:17.520 --> 2:30:20.280 I would love to see the DOJ move to unseal 2:30:20.360 --> 2:30:26.520 the grand jury testimony unquote. The messaging fumble really the 2:30:26.560 --> 2:30:29.440 biggest problem with it. The biggest problem with Jeffrey Epstein 2:30:29.440 --> 2:30:34.039 has been the messaging fumble, not yeah, decades of horrific 2:30:34.120 --> 2:30:36.640 sex crimes tied to the president of the United States. 2:30:37.040 --> 2:30:39.879 Also, I love that he's trying to trust the plan 2:30:40.000 --> 2:30:42.800 people with Like the thing that trust the plan is 2:30:42.920 --> 2:30:44.640 about reviewing, this. 2:30:44.640 --> 2:30:48.520 Is about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just keep trusting it. 2:30:48.720 --> 2:30:51.880 I do want to say that, I because I hate myself. 2:30:52.000 --> 2:30:56.119 I listened to Sean Ryan's podcast interview with Gavin Newsom, 2:30:56.840 --> 2:30:59.840 which yeah, I don't suggest it is four hours if 2:30:59.840 --> 2:31:03.160 you wondering. So never get pissed off about our episodes 2:31:03.200 --> 2:31:06.040 going along again, please, lots of interesting stuff. 2:31:06.440 --> 2:31:07.320 Trump has lost. 2:31:07.360 --> 2:31:09.760 Sean ryant that he is not towing the line on 2:31:09.800 --> 2:31:12.560 this Epstein stuff. He's clearly pissed about it. And like 2:31:13.320 --> 2:31:15.680 Ryan is a sizable influence on the right. He has 2:31:15.720 --> 2:31:19.000 about five million YouTube subscribers right He's one of the 2:31:19.000 --> 2:31:23.240 top ten podcasts on Spotify. He's interviewed Trump on his 2:31:23.320 --> 2:31:27.320 pot like when Trump did his podcast offensive before the 2:31:27.360 --> 2:31:29.560 twenty twenty four election, Ryan was one of the places 2:31:29.560 --> 2:31:34.000 he went. And it seems like Ryan is not on 2:31:34.040 --> 2:31:38.760 the like RNC paid poster list because he seemed like 2:31:39.280 --> 2:31:42.840 more critical of Trump than Gavin Newsom was in that interview. Weirdly, 2:31:42.959 --> 2:31:46.400 and specifically about the Epstein stuff, which it was kind 2:31:46.440 --> 2:31:48.240 of remarkable to me, and I think like we should 2:31:48.280 --> 2:31:50.680 note that it's he has. 2:31:50.560 --> 2:31:52.480 A significant influence on a certain type of people. 2:31:53.040 --> 2:31:55.640 Someone who certainly does appear to be on the R 2:31:55.720 --> 2:32:00.600 and C paid list is documentary filmmaker Jesusa. 2:32:01.320 --> 2:32:05.000 I'm going to talk about the Epstein files, and I'm 2:32:05.040 --> 2:32:10.480 going to make the case that even though there are 2:32:10.680 --> 2:32:16.160 unanswered questions about Epstein, it is in fact time to 2:32:16.200 --> 2:32:16.520 move on. 2:32:17.200 --> 2:32:20.359 Very convincing. 2:32:21.680 --> 2:32:24.680 Exactly there's nobody with a firearm out of shot in 2:32:24.720 --> 2:32:26.480 that video, So I'm sure it's fine. 2:32:26.879 --> 2:32:28.000 Case closed. 2:32:28.680 --> 2:32:30.520 Yep seems good to me. 2:32:31.040 --> 2:32:35.560 In another move for transparency, on Tuesday, Republicans unanimously voted 2:32:36.120 --> 2:32:41.440 to block the release of the Epstein files. Betty Johnson 2:32:41.520 --> 2:32:44.920 interviewed Speaker of the House Mike Johnson about how they 2:32:45.000 --> 2:32:48.040 kind of want to handle this and they're trying to 2:32:48.120 --> 2:32:50.440 make this argument that they're that they want to be transparent, 2:32:50.480 --> 2:32:52.640 but they have to make sure that they protect protect 2:32:52.680 --> 2:32:55.359 the victims, and that's why they can't release the files. 2:32:55.600 --> 2:33:00.680 Sure, yeah, protect victims. Republican Party compelling telling stuff. 2:33:01.160 --> 2:33:01.360 Yeah. 2:33:01.720 --> 2:33:03.640 Part part of what makes this super weird is like 2:33:03.720 --> 2:33:07.000 Trump just keeps giving though just the most bizarre most 2:33:07.160 --> 2:33:12.200 like I'm totally not guilty comments in media, and something 2:33:12.200 --> 2:33:14.480 he said on Tuesday I found to be quite interesting, 2:33:14.480 --> 2:33:16.640 not because of what he actually said, but because of 2:33:16.720 --> 2:33:18.840 how he said it. See if see I see see 2:33:18.879 --> 2:33:21.880 if you can catch this specifically, think she'd tell you 2:33:21.920 --> 2:33:24.160 about all that your name up here up. 2:33:24.160 --> 2:33:28.600 By no, No, she's She's given us just a very 2:33:28.680 --> 2:33:29.400 quick briefing. 2:33:29.959 --> 2:33:30.800 And in terms of. 2:33:30.760 --> 2:33:34.000 The credibility of the different things that they've seen, and 2:33:34.320 --> 2:33:36.760 I would say that you know, these files were made 2:33:36.800 --> 2:33:39.800 up by Komi, they were made up by Obama, they 2:33:39.800 --> 2:33:42.480 were made up by the Biden from you know, uh 2:33:42.760 --> 2:33:46.440 we and we went through years of that with the Russia, 2:33:46.800 --> 2:33:49.840 Russia Russia hopes with all of the different things that 2:33:49.879 --> 2:33:51.879 we had to go through. We've gone through years of it. 2:33:52.280 --> 2:33:54.119 But she's handled it very well. 2:33:54.160 --> 2:33:56.440 And it's going to be very convincing stuff. 2:33:56.600 --> 2:33:59.600 You can see Caroline levit just like just like being 2:33:59.600 --> 2:34:02.320 it like right, say. 2:34:02.240 --> 2:34:05.680 First time I've heard Trump like stutter like this before. 2:34:05.720 --> 2:34:09.280 And like Trump's whole idea of reality is if you 2:34:09.360 --> 2:34:12.000 speak it enough that becomes true. You can literally bend 2:34:12.480 --> 2:34:15.480 like the concept of truth. You can bend reality using 2:34:15.480 --> 2:34:17.240 your words, and that This is why he, you know, 2:34:17.360 --> 2:34:20.000 talks about being a winner. This is why he only 2:34:20.040 --> 2:34:22.440 surrounds himself with people who are winners. Like he thinks 2:34:22.480 --> 2:34:25.520 that reality is this malleable thing that you affect through 2:34:25.920 --> 2:34:29.760 asserting your own will. And he's done this super successfully, 2:34:30.240 --> 2:34:32.400 especially throughout his career in politics. You know, he's a 2:34:32.440 --> 2:34:35.320 mixed record of it in his uh business business era, 2:34:35.640 --> 2:34:38.680 but certainly in his political uh but certainly through his 2:34:38.680 --> 2:34:41.520 political career, he's done this fairly well. This is why 2:34:41.840 --> 2:34:44.279 almost half the country believes that the last election was stolen, 2:34:44.520 --> 2:34:46.920 just because he said it enough. Yeah, this is the 2:34:46.959 --> 2:34:51.039 first time I've heard him break while trying to speak 2:34:51.120 --> 2:34:55.959 reality into being like he literally could not get himself 2:34:56.000 --> 2:35:00.080 to do it cleanly, and and that is notable to me. 2:35:00.080 --> 2:35:00.160 Me. 2:35:01.600 --> 2:35:04.400 He's made a series of truths later that day, talking 2:35:04.400 --> 2:35:08.560 about how quote, my past supporters have bought into this 2:35:08.640 --> 2:35:14.520 bullshit hook line and sinker. Oh, very good. And he's 2:35:14.840 --> 2:35:18.920 now moved to call the Jeffrey Epstein story the Epstein hoax. 2:35:19.360 --> 2:35:20.440 Jesus Christ. 2:35:21.200 --> 2:35:23.880 He had an Oval Office press conference Wednesday morning. Quote 2:35:24.000 --> 2:35:25.880 I call it the Epstein hoax. They're talking about a 2:35:25.920 --> 2:35:28.000 guy who died three four years ago. And the sad 2:35:28.040 --> 2:35:31.120 part is is people are doing a democrat's work. They 2:35:31.160 --> 2:35:32.160 are stupid people. 2:35:33.840 --> 2:35:35.760 I don't think that's the sad part about what happened 2:35:35.760 --> 2:35:38.400 with Jeffrey Epstein. I think there are other sad things 2:35:38.720 --> 2:35:39.840 related to his conduct. 2:35:40.120 --> 2:35:42.080 A man is dead, you know. 2:35:44.680 --> 2:35:49.000 I think the thing that is like very alarming about 2:35:49.000 --> 2:35:50.600 this so that I think is very dangerous about this 2:35:50.720 --> 2:35:53.960 entire situation. A lot of this on the right has 2:35:54.080 --> 2:35:57.680 always been sort of motivated by anti semitism. Yeah, well, 2:35:57.879 --> 2:36:02.480 and I think we are going like we are already 2:36:02.560 --> 2:36:03.440 seeing some ship. 2:36:03.680 --> 2:36:09.240 It's funny you say that, Mia, Yeah, because another voice 2:36:09.280 --> 2:36:12.200 has joined the call to release the files. Oh God 2:36:12.600 --> 2:36:18.039 for Processively Street residents. Elmo made a series of I 2:36:18.080 --> 2:36:22.200 will say, shocking statements over the weekend, expressly good shocking. 2:36:22.240 --> 2:36:25.119 If you've been familiar with some of the court cases 2:36:25.120 --> 2:36:27.119 against Elmo over the last couple of years. 2:36:27.000 --> 2:36:30.000 I know Larry David attacked Elmore a few years ago, 2:36:30.320 --> 2:36:34.920 and he had probably coming as saying this for years 2:36:35.040 --> 2:36:37.119 as a Jewish man. I think he saw through Elmo 2:36:37.240 --> 2:36:39.680 stick and knew the anti semitism at the heart of 2:36:39.680 --> 2:36:46.119 Elbow that was being suppressed Nazi. But yeah, Elbow made 2:36:46.160 --> 2:36:49.080 some shocking tweets just you know, very similar to like 2:36:49.080 --> 2:36:50.800 what happened to Kanye a few years ago. 2:36:51.640 --> 2:36:52.560 Similar figures. 2:36:52.640 --> 2:36:54.640 You know, they they both kind of come out of 2:36:55.120 --> 2:36:58.959 the same chunks of like American hip hop culture. 2:36:59.400 --> 2:36:59.880 You know it. 2:37:00.120 --> 2:37:02.560 It's not super surprising, and I think they were both 2:37:02.560 --> 2:37:05.600 close for along, like a number of years before either 2:37:05.680 --> 2:37:06.640 man's career blew up. 2:37:08.320 --> 2:37:11.039 But yes, very andy simitic statements, also calling for the 2:37:11.080 --> 2:37:12.720 release of the Epstein files. 2:37:13.000 --> 2:37:13.120 Ye. 2:37:13.520 --> 2:37:16.720 Elmo has since backtracked, hired a PR team, it seems, 2:37:16.720 --> 2:37:19.400 has scrubbed the tweets, handling the backclash a little bit 2:37:19.400 --> 2:37:21.880 better than Kanye did. But still, it's going to be 2:37:21.879 --> 2:37:24.840 hard to look past this as Elmo attempts to, you know, 2:37:24.920 --> 2:37:26.720 continue Almo's career. 2:37:26.560 --> 2:37:29.320 Especially since Elmo is now running for president with Nick 2:37:29.360 --> 2:37:31.400 Fuintes as campaign manager. 2:37:31.520 --> 2:37:31.920 You know, just. 2:37:31.920 --> 2:37:36.000 At that just an inadvisable Yeah, yeah, that is that 2:37:36.080 --> 2:37:39.640 is upsetting. He's quote swears it's not a Nazi thing. Uh, 2:37:39.920 --> 2:37:41.880 but yeah, a lot a lot of debate about that. 2:37:43.240 --> 2:37:45.720 I will will reach out to Bernernie for comment. 2:37:47.000 --> 2:37:49.720 There's a whole bunch of applies to Elbow's tweet, quoting 2:37:49.720 --> 2:37:52.959 for Elmo to resign if Elbow is a a real 2:37:53.040 --> 2:37:58.520 person and he genuinely believes and ship, Yeah, I'm gonna 2:37:58.560 --> 2:38:01.560 quote one. It's just too good. Resign. You posted the 2:38:01.560 --> 2:38:04.520 most viole hate speech since the latest Tucker Carlson podcasts, 2:38:04.840 --> 2:38:07.440 saying what you did about Jews is Nazi star rhetoric 2:38:07.480 --> 2:38:09.040 and you should be out of a job at the 2:38:09.160 --> 2:38:09.640 very East. 2:38:09.959 --> 2:38:13.760 Fire Elmo, Yeah, yeah. 2:38:13.000 --> 2:38:15.560 Hashtag fire Elma, everybody, yeah, get it, get it. 2:38:15.600 --> 2:38:19.720 Trending in Jenny Wine all seriousness, though, I think it 2:38:19.800 --> 2:38:22.200 is really alarming that a lot of the like on 2:38:22.240 --> 2:38:23.720 the right the way that like a lot of this 2:38:23.840 --> 2:38:27.800 resistance is crystallizing the Trump over this is just the like, oh, 2:38:27.959 --> 2:38:30.959 they're like, this is like Epstein was a massad agent. 2:38:31.080 --> 2:38:33.280 Trump is a massage engine. Yeah right, it's all just 2:38:33.320 --> 2:38:34.480 pure it's puired desemptism. 2:38:34.560 --> 2:38:38.840 The Jews are blackmailing US politicians with you know, child porn, 2:38:38.920 --> 2:38:39.640 and yeah, and. 2:38:40.000 --> 2:38:42.480 And and I think I think there's there's two angles 2:38:42.480 --> 2:38:45.000 on this one. In the very short term, it's obviously 2:38:45.080 --> 2:38:49.320 very good that Trump is losing support. However, Comma, if 2:38:49.440 --> 2:38:51.600 if and when we defeat Trump, we are going to 2:38:51.640 --> 2:38:54.360 have to pivot and smash these people so fucking hard 2:38:54.720 --> 2:38:59.760 that they never reappear again, because this could get really, 2:39:00.320 --> 2:39:03.760 really fucking bad very quickly. And I don't I don't think, 2:39:03.959 --> 2:39:06.920 I don't know. We've covered this on the show, right, 2:39:06.959 --> 2:39:10.080 We're like all discourse by anti Semitism has been turned 2:39:10.080 --> 2:39:13.640 into yelling at like mcdonnie for something he didn't say. 2:39:14.040 --> 2:39:16.520 And then meanwhile, like the elmal account is being hacked 2:39:16.560 --> 2:39:20.720 by like just literally a guy saying kill all Jews alcies, 2:39:21.000 --> 2:39:24.200 And that's just like a bubbling, massive undercurrents of the 2:39:24.360 --> 2:39:27.400 US now in politics that is going to have a 2:39:27.400 --> 2:39:30.000 bunch of profound impacts that we fucking don't understand yet 2:39:30.040 --> 2:39:32.960 and we have to deal with eventually. 2:39:33.720 --> 2:39:34.199 Yeah. 2:39:34.360 --> 2:39:39.400 No, this is the unfortunate reality, is that anti Semitism 2:39:39.520 --> 2:39:42.760 is turning into a block that could potentially swing an 2:39:42.800 --> 2:39:45.039 election one way or the other. And it's not a 2:39:45.080 --> 2:39:48.160 block that's necessarily locked into left or right. It's left 2:39:48.160 --> 2:39:52.120 into whoever's going to play to those delusions, you know. Yeah, 2:39:52.160 --> 2:39:54.320 And the fact that we're as deep in the weeds 2:39:54.320 --> 2:39:57.120 as we are right now with a right wing fascist 2:39:57.200 --> 2:39:59.320 movement does not mean that there could not be a 2:39:59.440 --> 2:40:02.840 left wing a oratarian movement that clings to anti Semitism 2:40:02.879 --> 2:40:05.160 as a way to gain power. It's happened in the 2:40:05.200 --> 2:40:09.039 world before. It's it's not something the left is immune from. 2:40:09.200 --> 2:40:11.959 It's not it's obviously not my the top of my 2:40:12.040 --> 2:40:14.480 threat model, right like, this isn't I don't I would 2:40:14.520 --> 2:40:17.200 not say this is the thing to focus on, but 2:40:17.240 --> 2:40:19.800 it's something again that to be aware of. Is that 2:40:19.879 --> 2:40:23.920 like the fact that this you get I think what 2:40:24.000 --> 2:40:25.440 you need to keep in mind when you're trying to 2:40:25.640 --> 2:40:28.440 parse out the future, think of how weird it is 2:40:29.040 --> 2:40:31.200 that some of the figures who wound up aligned with 2:40:31.280 --> 2:40:33.600 Trump are aligned with Trump right now. How a lot 2:40:33.680 --> 2:40:35.879 of folks who you would have during like the Bushy years, 2:40:35.920 --> 2:40:38.200 like the W's years, you would have put on the 2:40:38.280 --> 2:40:41.160 left or at least as like kind of contra to 2:40:41.200 --> 2:40:45.040 the Christian right, and who have now completely like dove 2:40:45.160 --> 2:40:48.360 into that side of things. And in some way even 2:40:48.440 --> 2:40:53.080 RFK can shift that rapidly again, and it will one way. 2:40:53.240 --> 2:40:56.360 In some ways, right like, there are ways in which 2:40:56.400 --> 2:40:58.879 this is inevitable, and that's why you need to be 2:40:58.920 --> 2:41:00.879 on the lookout about stuff like this. You have to 2:41:00.920 --> 2:41:02.279 keep your head on a fucking swibble. 2:41:03.080 --> 2:41:05.600 Let's go on and ad break and then return to 2:41:05.640 --> 2:41:07.120 talk about more news. 2:41:07.280 --> 2:41:24.280 That's right, all right, we are back, and now we're 2:41:24.280 --> 2:41:27.080 going to talk about immigration, a topic which is always 2:41:27.320 --> 2:41:32.880 fun and only good things happen. So to begin with today, 2:41:33.000 --> 2:41:37.119 we're recording. On the sixteenth, the Trump administration has begun 2:41:37.240 --> 2:41:42.400 renditioning people to Swatinis christ a Twatini, small landlocked country 2:41:42.440 --> 2:41:45.800 in Africa. People are not familiar Africa's last absolute monarchy. 2:41:46.520 --> 2:41:49.840 This follows their rendition of eight people to South Sudan. 2:41:50.120 --> 2:41:52.680 The South Sudanese press is reporting that those men are 2:41:52.720 --> 2:41:56.240 in prison in South Sudan, which contradicts Tom Homan's statement 2:41:56.280 --> 2:41:59.520 to political that quote, when we sign these agreements with 2:41:59.560 --> 2:42:02.120 all these cones, we make arrangements to make sure these 2:42:02.120 --> 2:42:05.920 countries are receiving these people. And there's opportunities for these people. 2:42:06.480 --> 2:42:08.840 But I can't tell. If we remove somebody to Sudan, 2:42:09.120 --> 2:42:10.640 they could stay there a week and leave. 2:42:10.879 --> 2:42:13.600 I don't know. Homan has said and other atlets that 2:42:13.640 --> 2:42:16.160 he believed they were just kind of free in South Sudan, 2:42:16.240 --> 2:42:20.040 that they were just like released to wander around. That 2:42:20.160 --> 2:42:23.840 does not seem to be the case. Jesus the Eswortini people. 2:42:23.959 --> 2:42:26.800 Tricia McLaughlin, who's a I think a deputy sector of 2:42:26.840 --> 2:42:31.080 Homeland Security, called the people sent to Swortini quote uniquely barbaric. 2:42:31.480 --> 2:42:33.920 Oh boy, yeah yeah. 2:42:34.120 --> 2:42:39.160 She used a thread on x dot com everything you 2:42:39.160 --> 2:42:42.000 can find all kinds of stuff on there fare that way. 2:42:42.200 --> 2:42:45.640 She did not name the men in her thread, but 2:42:45.720 --> 2:42:48.840 she did list their convictions. Most of these were sex crimes, 2:42:48.959 --> 2:42:53.959 having children and various types of murder, homicide, manslaughter. This 2:42:54.040 --> 2:42:57.680 has caused widespread concern in Eswatini, right, the idea that 2:42:58.000 --> 2:43:00.600 the US is just sending random people who convicted of 2:43:00.640 --> 2:43:04.520 crimes s were Tini. In a statement, the government said, quote, 2:43:04.680 --> 2:43:07.760 five inmates are currently housed in our correctional facilities, in 2:43:07.800 --> 2:43:11.520 isolated units where similar offenders are kept. The nation is 2:43:11.560 --> 2:43:14.680 assured that these inmates posed no threat to the country 2:43:14.760 --> 2:43:19.640 or its citizens. The statement, given by government spokesman Fabeli 2:43:19.800 --> 2:43:24.120 Mudluli went on quote, this exercise is a result of 2:43:24.200 --> 2:43:28.040 months of robust, high level engagements among the United States government. 2:43:28.400 --> 2:43:31.600 The two governments will collaborate with the International Organization for 2:43:31.680 --> 2:43:34.400 Migration to facilitate the transit of these inmates to their 2:43:34.440 --> 2:43:38.560 countries of origin. So this seems to suggest that a 2:43:38.879 --> 2:43:41.400 this has been planned for months, which is not a 2:43:41.440 --> 2:43:45.640 particular surprise, right the US government has clearly been pushing 2:43:45.640 --> 2:43:49.039 for these like third country renditions for a while, but 2:43:49.160 --> 2:43:52.640 also that like this is a potential end run around 2:43:52.680 --> 2:43:56.320 things like the Convention against Torture withholding of removal right 2:43:56.400 --> 2:44:00.320 like either people whose governments won't accept them back from 2:44:00.320 --> 2:44:04.320 the US or people who have withholding of removal because 2:44:04.400 --> 2:44:07.760 they have a reasonable fear of being tortured or of 2:44:07.840 --> 2:44:09.520 harm coming to them that they're sent back to the 2:44:09.600 --> 2:44:12.480 countries of origin. I guess going to be sent back 2:44:12.680 --> 2:44:16.200 via Swortini is what it seems like. So this is 2:44:16.440 --> 2:44:20.120 pretty troubling. It seems to suggest that essentially that's what 2:44:20.280 --> 2:44:22.760 the US is doing. We're not quite clear how much 2:44:22.800 --> 2:44:25.400 the US has paid Swortini. Yet they paid one hundred 2:44:25.480 --> 2:44:28.640 thousand for one person to be sent to a ruwander. 2:44:28.680 --> 2:44:32.039 We still don't know where that person is. We don't 2:44:32.080 --> 2:44:34.840 know exactly how much they paid to South Sudan. They 2:44:35.000 --> 2:44:38.959 have requested a number of other countries, lots of them 2:44:39.200 --> 2:44:43.560 in West Africa, to accept people via this rendition process. 2:44:43.560 --> 2:44:45.360 We're going to talk about it on a whole episode 2:44:45.400 --> 2:44:48.320 that we have coming out next Tuesday, if you're interested 2:44:48.320 --> 2:44:52.360 to hear more about that. Another piece of legislation that 2:44:52.360 --> 2:44:54.080 I wanted to cover just because I've seen it getting 2:44:54.080 --> 2:44:55.800 a lot of attension and I think it kind of 2:44:56.240 --> 2:44:59.600 bears mentioning. A bi part of that group of legislators 2:45:00.000 --> 2:45:04.280 produce legislation to fundamentally reform the immigration system. It's called 2:45:04.320 --> 2:45:07.480 the Dignity or Dignidad Act, and it has about as 2:45:07.560 --> 2:45:10.560 much chances of success as a chocolate teapot. It's co 2:45:10.680 --> 2:45:15.800 sponsored by Republican Maria Salazar, She's from Florida, and Democrat 2:45:15.959 --> 2:45:20.160 Veronica Escobar from El Paso, Texas. Salazar, in an interview 2:45:20.200 --> 2:45:23.440 today with News Nations said, quote, there is no other 2:45:23.520 --> 2:45:25.800 president like Trump. I have faith that he could be 2:45:25.840 --> 2:45:29.760 for immigration what Lincoln was for slavery and Reagan was 2:45:29.800 --> 2:45:33.439 for communism. Just watch him, Jesus Christ. 2:45:34.040 --> 2:45:34.440 Yeah. 2:45:34.680 --> 2:45:38.360 I mean, I guess one could make some ar against 2:45:38.360 --> 2:45:41.040 about like some of the abolitionists just wanting to send 2:45:41.120 --> 2:45:43.600 folks off back to Africa, right, But I don't think 2:45:43.600 --> 2:45:45.840 that that's what most people understand to be Lincoln's legacy 2:45:45.840 --> 2:45:46.400 for slavery. 2:45:46.520 --> 2:45:49.760 I mean, he could definitely be like Reagan. Yeah, yeah, 2:45:50.040 --> 2:45:50.960 give her that one. 2:45:51.480 --> 2:45:51.680 Yeah. 2:45:52.040 --> 2:45:54.080 The big problem with this pizza legislation, which Salazar has 2:45:54.120 --> 2:45:56.840 tried to introduce before, right, just tried it twenty twenty 2:45:56.840 --> 2:45:58.680 three as well, is that it relies on people coming 2:45:58.720 --> 2:46:00.560 forward to a bit they have no legal status and 2:46:00.600 --> 2:46:03.920 being offered a quote dignity status, which is somewhat analogous 2:46:03.920 --> 2:46:07.920 to permanent residency, but without a pathway citizenship, it creates 2:46:07.959 --> 2:46:12.400 a permanent underclass. It relies on people trusting immigration authorities, 2:46:12.400 --> 2:46:15.880 and that's not going to happen now. There is no 2:46:16.040 --> 2:46:19.199 way in hell that people are going to come forward 2:46:19.240 --> 2:46:21.600 and say, yes, I'm undocumented after what we've seen for 2:46:21.640 --> 2:46:24.240 the last six months, right, Like people didn't trust the 2:46:24.320 --> 2:46:28.000 authorities before, but after what we've seen in the last 2:46:28.520 --> 2:46:30.959 six months. 2:46:29.959 --> 2:46:32.800 It's completely imploys. Why it's ludicrous. 2:46:32.959 --> 2:46:34.879 They don't want people coming forward with that stuff. That's 2:46:35.040 --> 2:46:36.800 the whole point of scaring them away, is to make 2:46:36.840 --> 2:46:39.119 them basically not able to function in this country. 2:46:39.280 --> 2:46:43.200 Yes, exactly. They don't want to give people safe status. 2:46:42.720 --> 2:46:46.120 Like make living in this country like as impossible as possible. 2:46:46.560 --> 2:46:50.040 Yeah, they have undermined the trust that allows them to 2:46:50.080 --> 2:46:52.000 do what is supposed to be the core of their job, 2:46:52.640 --> 2:46:55.200 just to get deportation numbers up, to get detention at 2:46:55.200 --> 2:46:55.520 the up. 2:46:56.080 --> 2:46:58.800 This is just a fluffer thing. It's people in the 2:46:58.800 --> 2:47:02.000 House of Representatives trying to boost their reelection chances by 2:47:02.040 --> 2:47:05.400 saying that they tried to do something different. Right, It's 2:47:05.400 --> 2:47:07.640 not seriously going to succeed, no way. 2:47:08.280 --> 2:47:13.240 Finally, a Canadian judge has halted the deportation of a 2:47:13.240 --> 2:47:16.800 non binary person back to the USA, citing conditions here. 2:47:17.520 --> 2:47:21.360 Quoting here, the officer failed to consider recent evidence of 2:47:21.400 --> 2:47:25.080 the conditions that may have supported a reasonable fear of persecution, 2:47:25.280 --> 2:47:28.400 said to Judge Julie blackhowk thirst Indigenous women appointed to 2:47:28.440 --> 2:47:33.320 a Canadian federal court. It seems that Angel Djenkle entered 2:47:33.360 --> 2:47:36.400 Canada as a visitor and that they're now engaged to 2:47:36.480 --> 2:47:40.440 a Canadian person. I'm guessing that they overstayed there. Their 2:47:40.520 --> 2:47:42.520 visitors slash toories that you probably can get a visa 2:47:42.560 --> 2:47:45.160 waiver of your US it's in down to Canada, and 2:47:45.320 --> 2:47:49.440 they probably overstayed that they requested a risk assessment before 2:47:49.440 --> 2:47:52.080 being deported to the USA, and the ruling suggests that 2:47:52.120 --> 2:47:55.560 the immigration official who conducted it had used outdated information 2:47:55.600 --> 2:47:59.199 and regarding the safety of LGBTQIA people in the USA. 2:47:59.320 --> 2:48:02.360 So yeah, that's where things things are at now. I'm 2:48:02.400 --> 2:48:05.360 aware of people also trans and non binary people from 2:48:05.360 --> 2:48:08.520 the US seeking asylum in Mexico lately. 2:48:09.280 --> 2:48:11.480 You know, it was a. 2:48:11.480 --> 2:48:14.760 Year ago that trans people were coming here to be safe, 2:48:14.959 --> 2:48:17.320 and now people are moving in the other direction, which 2:48:17.360 --> 2:48:21.680 is pretty damning combination of how things have gone in 2:48:21.680 --> 2:48:25.720 this country. Yeah, that's all the exciting fun immigration news 2:48:25.760 --> 2:48:29.960 I have this week. That really sucks. 2:48:31.920 --> 2:48:32.840 It sucks. 2:48:33.800 --> 2:48:39.800 Yeah, I guess. One small update tangentially related. A judge 2:48:39.840 --> 2:48:44.280 in New Hampshire blocked Trump's order on birthright citizenship while 2:48:44.320 --> 2:48:48.440 side stepping the Supreme Court's ruling against nationwide injunctions by 2:48:48.920 --> 2:48:53.400 adding all children born on US soil to a certified 2:48:53.560 --> 2:48:56.680 nationwide class. So it's just now a massive class. 2:48:56.680 --> 2:48:57.000 Actual. 2:48:57.160 --> 2:49:01.640 Yes, this has had to go in effect on July seventeenth. 2:49:01.800 --> 2:49:03.720 We're according this on the sixteenth. We'll see if the 2:49:03.720 --> 2:49:07.560 government responds. And July seventeenth is just ten days before 2:49:07.680 --> 2:49:10.800 the partial implementation date of Trump's executive order. 2:49:11.520 --> 2:49:14.400 Yeah, so I wanted to start this by noting that 2:49:14.480 --> 2:49:17.400 a fan reached out to us on Blue Sky recently 2:49:17.440 --> 2:49:20.840 with a clip from a quote by Omar Sharif, founder 2:49:20.920 --> 2:49:24.080 and president of Inflation Insights, who wrote in a note 2:49:24.120 --> 2:49:27.640 to clients, today's report showed that tariffs are beginning to bite, 2:49:28.160 --> 2:49:32.480 and yeah, this is this is we finally come beautifully 2:49:32.520 --> 2:49:36.000 back from Tarif. Don't like it. To Sharif, don't like it. 2:49:35.800 --> 2:49:40.760 It's beautiful, you know, it's like poetry. It rhymes. Anyway, 2:49:40.840 --> 2:49:47.480 here's here's the song, locking Jazz. 2:49:47.240 --> 2:49:49.320 Bomb, Locking Jazz good. 2:49:49.520 --> 2:49:56.480 Sorry, Locking Jazz Rocking jazz. 2:49:56.600 --> 2:49:58.680 Bob do. 2:49:58.760 --> 2:50:01.480 I want to know what in Flat Insights does. 2:50:02.240 --> 2:50:05.000 It's again that they post clips of Huey Dewey and 2:50:05.080 --> 2:50:08.759 Louis inflation fetish videos from the decktails. 2:50:08.360 --> 2:50:12.200 Kids working class that should be a unionized position. I 2:50:12.560 --> 2:50:14.600 hope that they're able to weather the tariffs. 2:50:14.600 --> 2:50:17.000 But what do you think the a fl cio is about? 2:50:17.280 --> 2:50:19.640 One of those word just flation the fl. 2:50:20.720 --> 2:50:23.920 In my time, I deeply remember the first time I 2:50:23.959 --> 2:50:26.360 ever talked about inflation on the show. It could happen 2:50:26.400 --> 2:50:30.039 here because this happened, and I deeply remember that episode 2:50:30.240 --> 2:50:34.000 because we are going back through that fucking episode today. 2:50:34.360 --> 2:50:39.400 At the moments I heard, I just started getting like 2:50:40.080 --> 2:50:41.920 fucking war flashbacks. 2:50:43.360 --> 2:50:45.920 Yeah, imagine how bad those flashbacks would be if you 2:50:46.000 --> 2:50:49.600 had seen ducktails inflation fetish for as a kid. 2:50:50.920 --> 2:50:55.360 I afford until adul. What I have seen is this article. 2:50:55.680 --> 2:50:59.000 Inflation insights dot Com has a fantastic article called what 2:50:59.040 --> 2:51:02.400 the Great Mayonnaise Inflation Mystery can tell us about prices. 2:51:02.480 --> 2:51:03.760 I'm learning a lot here. 2:51:03.760 --> 2:51:06.080 Okay, Mia, Can we talk about tariffs now? 2:51:06.160 --> 2:51:06.480 Okay? 2:51:06.600 --> 2:51:11.320 Actual tariffs? So we have new tariffs. Indonesia apparently has 2:51:11.360 --> 2:51:16.520 agreed to a tariff deal with the US in which 2:51:16.560 --> 2:51:20.360 the US imposes a nineteen percent tariff on Indonesia and 2:51:20.520 --> 2:51:24.480 Indonesia doesn't impose one back. Percynn Trump posted on true 2:51:24.560 --> 2:51:27.879 social quote that Indonesia is buying fifteen billion dollars in 2:51:27.879 --> 2:51:31.160 the US energy, five point four billion dollars in American 2:51:31.240 --> 2:51:34.080 agricultural products, and fifty Boeing jets, many of them seven 2:51:34.200 --> 2:51:38.920 seventy sevens. Fucking rip Indonesia, Good luck with those planes. 2:51:40.280 --> 2:51:45.760 Oh no, So, the Indonesian government was complaining to the 2:51:45.840 --> 2:51:48.640 press about how much of a shit show negotiating this was. 2:51:49.320 --> 2:51:54.040 We'll see if it holds. We also got news that 2:51:54.240 --> 2:51:58.520 Trump as Trump has announced that he's going to basically 2:51:58.560 --> 2:52:00.520 send a tariff letter to like a one hundred and 2:52:00.520 --> 2:52:05.039 fifty countries setting their rate simultaneously. But he hasn't done 2:52:05.040 --> 2:52:05.360 it yet. 2:52:05.400 --> 2:52:05.760 I don't know. 2:52:05.800 --> 2:52:07.680 It's possible. By the time this goes out, we'll have that, 2:52:07.760 --> 2:52:09.920 we'll have the actual number on it. Who knows what's 2:52:09.920 --> 2:52:12.960 going on with that? Is that the August third tariffs? 2:52:13.000 --> 2:52:15.960 Maybe it's also unclear when they're going to come into effect, 2:52:16.320 --> 2:52:20.400 Like it's all excellent, it's a catastrophe. Who knows this? 2:52:20.400 --> 2:52:22.920 This policy is just fucking Calvin Baal. They're just making 2:52:22.959 --> 2:52:25.680 it up as they go right now. There has also 2:52:25.720 --> 2:52:28.480 been very very funny news in our story from last 2:52:28.520 --> 2:52:33.000 week about Trump's tariff demand on Brazil to try to 2:52:33.000 --> 2:52:35.440 get them to release Bulsonaro, which is that. 2:52:35.840 --> 2:52:41.240 This has this has backfired spectacularly. He has like saved 2:52:41.320 --> 2:52:46.040 Lula's flagging approval rating. It has created a massive, a 2:52:46.400 --> 2:52:52.560 massive anti Bilsonaro pro Lula Brazilian nationalist backlatch of a 2:52:52.640 --> 2:52:56.640 kind that I really haven't seen since. Like Dilma Russeph 2:52:56.680 --> 2:52:58.640 had to deal with the fact that the NSA was 2:52:58.640 --> 2:52:59.600 spying on her phone. 2:53:00.320 --> 2:53:03.600 It's very, very funny. Bolsonaro is being accused by like 2:53:03.720 --> 2:53:08.000 but by Brazilian conservatives of being and I quote, a 2:53:08.080 --> 2:53:12.000 phony nationalist who is just like a dog of the US. 2:53:13.320 --> 2:53:16.600 It's amazing Trump's done this incredible pink wave across the world. 2:53:17.760 --> 2:53:20.640 Yeah, it's studying. Kid might save Lula too. 2:53:21.520 --> 2:53:24.480 The funniest part of this is that, like Bolsonaro looks 2:53:24.480 --> 2:53:26.840 at this, it is like, oh fuck, my entire base 2:53:26.920 --> 2:53:29.120 is turning on me because I'm so clearly like a 2:53:29.160 --> 2:53:33.519 dog of the Americans. And so he turned around like denounced, 2:53:33.680 --> 2:53:37.600 like the terrace is like, it's like an American employ 2:53:38.120 --> 2:53:43.520 it's Brazil that is outstanding. There is now one thing 2:53:43.879 --> 2:53:47.800 that both Lula and Bolsonaro agree on other than cop 2:53:47.840 --> 2:53:51.600 should kill more people, which is that these tariffs are bad. 2:53:51.640 --> 2:53:55.400 He has united all of Brazil. It is absolutely hilarious. 2:53:56.160 --> 2:53:56.360 You know. 2:53:56.440 --> 2:53:58.600 I try to set up a similar deal with America's 2:53:58.600 --> 2:54:02.920 own critically hospitalized man, Stephen Crowder, and it did not 2:54:03.040 --> 2:54:06.119 work out the same way the way this Bolsonnaro deal went. 2:54:06.680 --> 2:54:08.800 And some people say it's a little bit mean to 2:54:08.879 --> 2:54:12.200 negotiate with someone who just constantly keeps going into the 2:54:12.240 --> 2:54:15.520 hospital for bizarre chest surgeries to make him look more masculine. 2:54:15.800 --> 2:54:18.880 But hey, you know, podcasting is a competitive industry, and 2:54:18.959 --> 2:54:21.440 we tried to create a similar trade deal with with 2:54:21.520 --> 2:54:24.360 Crowder and it has not worked out. He apparently had 2:54:24.400 --> 2:54:28.520 some similar problems with The Daily Wire, so that's why 2:54:28.520 --> 2:54:31.200 you haven't seen much of him on the shows lately. 2:54:31.760 --> 2:54:34.959 Great Incredible. I love that Garrison somehow has become the 2:54:34.959 --> 2:54:37.879 person doing unilateral trade deals for the podcast Great Stuff. 2:54:37.920 --> 2:54:42.160 Great Stuff only with people who are constantly in the hospital, 2:54:42.240 --> 2:54:47.320 either through shitting problems or chest masculinization problems. Okay, so 2:54:47.520 --> 2:54:50.560 it's it's really just Stephen Crowder and Bolsonnaro. 2:54:51.200 --> 2:54:52.560 I think there are probably sme other people who are 2:54:52.560 --> 2:54:54.680 in the hospital for shitting problems. If we throw then 2:54:54.720 --> 2:54:55.720 that that white. 2:54:55.800 --> 2:54:59.160 Not as much as Bolsonnaro is. Chaps, that's true. 2:54:59.240 --> 2:55:02.240 Boscenarios in my hospitalized Man on the planet. 2:55:02.480 --> 2:55:04.840 Well second only to Stephen Crowder. 2:55:05.440 --> 2:55:08.199 Maybe they hang out there, they might get along, maybe 2:55:08.240 --> 2:55:10.879 they can need some boys time. Maybe maybe they won't 2:55:11.000 --> 2:55:13.160 get Maybe they hang out in the man cave at 2:55:13.200 --> 2:55:13.760 the hospital. 2:55:14.120 --> 2:55:19.039 Crowder has been advocating this for years. Jesus Christ okay, okay. 2:55:19.200 --> 2:55:23.480 So the final piece of news is actually what Robert 2:55:23.520 --> 2:55:25.879 started this on, which is that we have gotten our 2:55:25.920 --> 2:55:31.160 first sign of actual inflation increases from these tariffs. Inflation 2:55:31.600 --> 2:55:34.560 increase to two point seven percent in June, which is 2:55:34.600 --> 2:55:37.760 still well below the eight percent peaks in the early 2:55:37.800 --> 2:55:40.960 twenty twenties, but it is rising. It's also worth doing. 2:55:41.000 --> 2:55:44.080 This increase has been asymmetric. I'm gonna quote from the 2:55:44.080 --> 2:55:47.520 Financial Times here. Quote June's inflation rise was fueled in 2:55:47.560 --> 2:55:52.080 part by higher food prices, but offset by weaker commodity prices. Now, 2:55:52.200 --> 2:55:56.720 there's two important things here, right. One, food prices like 2:55:57.120 --> 2:56:00.160 matter significantly more for how pissed off everyone is than 2:56:00.200 --> 2:56:04.760 commodity prices do. And secondly, at the beginning of August, 2:56:04.760 --> 2:56:07.960 Trump is trying to impose a fifty terri funk copper. 2:56:08.560 --> 2:56:11.920 So those commodity prices, Oh boy. 2:56:11.920 --> 2:56:16.480 Get the copper stuppers ready, folks, I started stockpiling your 2:56:16.480 --> 2:56:17.160 wire now. 2:56:17.920 --> 2:56:20.280 So the other thing that I think is really we're 2:56:20.280 --> 2:56:23.920 discussing about this is the reason there hasn't been more inflation. 2:56:23.959 --> 2:56:27.640 And this has been something that we've kind of proposed 2:56:27.680 --> 2:56:29.400 as a mechanism on the show for what can happen, 2:56:29.440 --> 2:56:35.959 at least temporarily is that the for right now, largely 2:56:35.959 --> 2:56:39.440 what's been happening is that companies, often directly under pressure 2:56:39.480 --> 2:56:42.480 from Trump, have been just eating the costs of the tariffs. 2:56:43.200 --> 2:56:46.200 Yeah, I mean basically Donald's doing what they call off gassing. 2:56:46.520 --> 2:56:49.600 And that's Donald, both as in Duck and as in Trump. 2:56:49.800 --> 2:56:50.840 Jesus Christ, is. 2:56:50.800 --> 2:56:52.000 That one of the things that can get you in 2:56:52.040 --> 2:56:55.120 hospital with Stephen Krawdin's bulsinara. 2:56:55.200 --> 2:56:57.600 You know, James, that's a great guess. 2:56:58.600 --> 2:57:02.560 So as I did go the first time, I discovered 2:57:02.600 --> 2:57:04.960 that my coworkers, if I ever talked about inflation, would 2:57:04.959 --> 2:57:08.720 only talk about Donald Duck inflation. 2:57:09.160 --> 2:57:10.320 And Lowie inflation. 2:57:10.480 --> 2:57:10.720 Born. 2:57:10.800 --> 2:57:14.160 Thank you very sorry, So yes I am, but my 2:57:14.240 --> 2:57:19.400 ducks are not in a row. So the very important 2:57:19.400 --> 2:57:24.879 part about this, though is these tariffs. The very stificant 2:57:24.920 --> 2:57:27.520 element of this is how pricing is actually set. 2:57:28.040 --> 2:57:28.280 Right. 2:57:29.040 --> 2:57:31.600 The general way that you are taught in econ one 2:57:31.640 --> 2:57:34.440 on one that prices are set is prices supply and demand. 2:57:34.879 --> 2:57:37.320 And so from this you would think that the way 2:57:37.360 --> 2:57:39.760 pricing works as people draw a supply intomandcraft and then 2:57:39.840 --> 2:57:41.760 you like put it there. That's not how any of 2:57:41.800 --> 2:57:45.080 the ship works. The way prices are actually set are 2:57:45.120 --> 2:57:48.240 specifically by pricing agents at each point in a supply 2:57:48.320 --> 2:57:51.080 chain down the supply chain. Right, so, every firm involved 2:57:51.080 --> 2:57:53.520 in the production of a thing moving the thing, each 2:57:53.560 --> 2:57:55.760 one sets a price that they're selling to the next 2:57:55.760 --> 2:57:58.520 person who's selling to the next person. Each person adds 2:57:58.560 --> 2:58:02.320 on their costs plus markup, and that's what a price is. Now. 2:58:02.560 --> 2:58:06.480 The reason prices tend not to move higher unustor's an 2:58:06.480 --> 2:58:09.200 excuse to do it, is that consumers get pissed off 2:58:09.200 --> 2:58:12.120 when prices rise, even if they technically would be willing 2:58:12.120 --> 2:58:15.640 to pay higher things. It damages your brand. Right now, 2:58:15.760 --> 2:58:17.680 what we've been seeing again is that the effects of 2:58:17.680 --> 2:58:19.800 the inflation have been mitigated about the fact these countries 2:58:19.840 --> 2:58:22.840 are just eating shit, and instead of raising their prices 2:58:22.879 --> 2:58:24.600 to eat the cost that they've been doing, they've been 2:58:24.640 --> 2:58:27.600 eating parts of their markup, which is like basically their 2:58:27.640 --> 2:58:29.640 pure profit right. They've been eating parts of their markup 2:58:29.640 --> 2:58:31.640 in order to not have the prices raise. This is 2:58:31.680 --> 2:58:35.080 not sustainable. This is especially not sustainable as war countries 2:58:35.080 --> 2:58:38.280 get tariffs, and as Trump's ability to pressure these companies weakens, 2:58:38.320 --> 2:58:41.080 as like you know, food prices continue to increase and 2:58:41.120 --> 2:58:44.120 people start getting more pissed at him. So this is 2:58:44.440 --> 2:58:46.920 just the beginning of this. All of these tariffs are 2:58:46.959 --> 2:58:49.280 maximumly set up to make sure that we get another 2:58:49.480 --> 2:58:53.560 run of this supply chain inflation. Our friends over at 2:58:53.560 --> 2:58:55.800 Strange Matter wrote a very long piece about this a 2:58:55.800 --> 2:58:57.560 couple of years. We've talked about the show a few times. 2:58:57.560 --> 2:58:59.880 We're going to link that in the description. You sho 2:59:00.080 --> 2:59:01.640 go read it. But that's an important thing that we've 2:59:01.640 --> 2:59:04.480 gotten from from the Bureau Labor Satistics data. 2:59:04.800 --> 2:59:07.200 Yeah, I'm not really sure how Trump's gonna duck this 2:59:07.920 --> 2:59:09.640 responsibility for much longer. 2:59:09.800 --> 2:59:13.920 I will say, I will say there is genuinely starting 2:59:13.959 --> 2:59:17.160 to be concerned that they're just straight up fudging the 2:59:17.440 --> 2:59:21.880 BLS statistics. And like, I don't know if they're doing that, 2:59:21.959 --> 2:59:24.120 but like I've seen like a bunch of bond people 2:59:24.240 --> 2:59:26.480 be like, are they just lying about the unemployment numbers? 2:59:26.959 --> 2:59:29.320 And who knows? 2:59:30.000 --> 2:59:32.080 Yeah, they would be very hard to prove that, right. 2:59:32.000 --> 2:59:35.560 Like, Yeah, I mean, and I've seen how much cash 2:59:35.560 --> 2:59:38.640 Scrooge has in that vault. So some people, the upper 2:59:38.640 --> 2:59:41.120 class will not be affected as much as the working 2:59:41.120 --> 2:59:41.800 class ducks. 2:59:42.080 --> 2:59:44.959 It's not saying the price of diving boards, for instance, 2:59:45.000 --> 2:59:47.200 could go up the very price sensitive because they need 2:59:47.240 --> 2:59:49.480 those diving boats to dive into that pause of cash. 2:59:49.560 --> 2:59:51.480 I have two more updates that I would like to 2:59:51.480 --> 2:59:56.480 do before we go to add Rake. For one, that 2:59:56.520 --> 2:59:58.880 the Trump administration has sued the state of California over 2:59:58.959 --> 3:00:03.080 Title nine violations for having trends athletes. This shows that 3:00:03.160 --> 3:00:06.039 even when you capitulate, like Gavin Newsom has tried to do, 3:00:06.320 --> 3:00:09.240 they will still come after you. You cannot get out 3:00:09.280 --> 3:00:12.680 of this by trying to please the administration. They're still 3:00:12.720 --> 3:00:13.480 going to go after you. 3:00:13.720 --> 3:00:16.840 The entire policy platform is your Facebook uncle wanting to 3:00:16.840 --> 3:00:17.560 earn the Libs. 3:00:18.160 --> 3:00:21.920 So we can see how well Gavin throwing trans people 3:00:21.959 --> 3:00:23.920 under the bus has worked for the state of California 3:00:24.080 --> 3:00:28.080 still getting sued. Lastly, before we pivot to ads, I 3:00:28.120 --> 3:00:30.800 want to update a story that Robert talked about last week. 3:00:31.720 --> 3:00:35.640 A former US Marine Corps reservist was arrested this Tuesday 3:00:36.040 --> 3:00:39.040 after a week long manhunt. He faces charges related to 3:00:39.080 --> 3:00:42.320 an alleged armed ambush on an ice attention facility in 3:00:42.360 --> 3:00:45.400 Prairie Land, Texas during a protest. He is now the 3:00:45.520 --> 3:00:49.000 fourteenth person charged in connection with the incident, and is 3:00:49.040 --> 3:00:52.600 also accused of purchasing four of the guns linked to 3:00:52.640 --> 3:00:56.640 the attack. Now two other people were also charged after 3:00:56.680 --> 3:01:00.360 allegedly helping the former reservist to escape after the attack. 3:01:01.240 --> 3:01:04.520 Nancy Larson, the acting US attorney, told Fox and Friends 3:01:04.520 --> 3:01:07.959 on Tuesday, quote they were involved in signal chats which 3:01:08.000 --> 3:01:11.879 show reconnaissance planning, a Google map, and the location of 3:01:12.040 --> 3:01:15.440 nearby police departments. At least one of these two new 3:01:15.440 --> 3:01:19.160 people charged was only charged after cooperating with the investigation. 3:01:20.320 --> 3:01:22.520 In this man's car, police found an air fifteen and 3:01:22.560 --> 3:01:25.120 a receipt for clothing that he admitted to purchasing for 3:01:25.320 --> 3:01:27.000 the former Marine reservist. 3:01:27.640 --> 3:01:27.959 Yeah. 3:01:28.000 --> 3:01:31.120 So, I mean this is a story to continue to 3:01:31.120 --> 3:01:33.760 pay attention to. I would remind folks that we know 3:01:33.840 --> 3:01:35.959 what the state is alleged in, you know, based on 3:01:36.000 --> 3:01:38.840 the charging documents. We know what people have been saying 3:01:39.080 --> 3:01:42.560 to the police, but we don't fully know what's happened yet. 3:01:42.600 --> 3:01:44.520 So we'll be continuing to keep an eye on the 3:01:44.640 --> 3:01:48.760 story as it develops. What do we have next, ads, Yeah, 3:01:48.800 --> 3:01:53.240 here's some products. 3:02:02.120 --> 3:02:09.039 Ah, let's close this episode by talking about Nazis. Nazis 3:02:10.760 --> 3:02:14.320 that one doesn't work, Robert, I'm sorry, I want it to. 3:02:14.600 --> 3:02:16.760 Yeah, no, it doesn't. It doesn't doesn't. I've tried. I've 3:02:16.800 --> 3:02:18.800 even tried it before. I've even tried it before. 3:02:19.240 --> 3:02:19.879 Yeah. 3:02:20.120 --> 3:02:23.039 Now we will have to return to Stinky Motsk once again. 3:02:23.040 --> 3:02:25.720 But before we do, I first want to talk about 3:02:26.000 --> 3:02:30.520 friend of the pod Greg Gutfield, who recently discussed a 3:02:30.560 --> 3:02:34.199 strategy on how to minimize the impact of the American 3:02:34.240 --> 3:02:39.280 fascist right being called Nazis derogatorily. I will play a 3:02:39.360 --> 3:02:40.920 short clip from Fox News. 3:02:41.920 --> 3:02:44.600 This is why the criticism doesn't matter to us when 3:02:44.600 --> 3:02:49.360 you call us Nazis, Nazi, this Nazie that. You know, 3:02:49.480 --> 3:02:51.119 I'm beginning to think they don't like us. 3:02:51.360 --> 3:02:53.240 You know what. I've said this before. 3:02:53.240 --> 3:02:56.080 We need to learn from the Blacks, the way they 3:02:56.440 --> 3:02:57.920 were able to remove. 3:02:57.600 --> 3:03:03.640 The power from the end word Nazi. Hey, what up 3:03:03.640 --> 3:03:06.359 my Nazi? Hey, what's hanging my Nazi? 3:03:08.000 --> 3:03:08.360 Nazi? 3:03:08.400 --> 3:03:08.800 Please? 3:03:10.640 --> 3:03:12.720 Oh god, you did a hard eye there. What does 3:03:12.760 --> 3:03:13.320 it tell you that? 3:03:13.480 --> 3:03:14.680 Oh my god? 3:03:16.280 --> 3:03:25.440 GREGI wow, Wow, they're all just laughing, also quite concerned 3:03:25.480 --> 3:03:26.560 with that. 3:03:26.560 --> 3:03:27.640 That's pretty disturbing. 3:03:28.760 --> 3:03:29.520 Yeah, not great. 3:03:29.720 --> 3:03:31.760 He also he gave it one of those just to 3:03:32.000 --> 3:03:35.080 just to really send it he like, my heart goes 3:03:35.120 --> 3:03:36.480 out to you gesture. 3:03:36.120 --> 3:03:40.600 Oh God, that's right, my heart goes out to you. Salute. Yeah, 3:03:40.680 --> 3:03:43.160 I mean like I remember, like, you know, five years ago, 3:03:43.280 --> 3:03:46.040 you had you had these al right people talking about 3:03:46.040 --> 3:03:49.920 how you know, actually actually Hitler was was a socialist. 3:03:50.040 --> 3:03:53.000 You know, the Nazis are actually communists. We're not We're 3:03:53.040 --> 3:03:56.679 not Nazis. And now they're just openly trying to normalize 3:03:57.160 --> 3:04:00.920 referring to themselves as Nazis. It's seems, it seems a 3:04:01.120 --> 3:04:05.720 notable speaking of Nazis in the in the New Rights 3:04:06.000 --> 3:04:10.720 God Grock four has gotten a Department of Defense contract 3:04:10.760 --> 3:04:13.320 for two hundred million dollars as a part of its 3:04:13.760 --> 3:04:18.440 Rock for Government program, including the responsibility of handling sensitive 3:04:18.520 --> 3:04:19.800 classified materials. 3:04:19.959 --> 3:04:24.600 And it happens on the same week that Mecca Hitler, 3:04:25.000 --> 3:04:27.920 Mecca Hitler makes his beautiful debut. 3:04:28.720 --> 3:04:32.600 Yeah, pretty troubling for our strongest allies in the IDF here. 3:04:33.800 --> 3:04:37.320 Oh my god. I just the ways that reality could 3:04:37.520 --> 3:04:40.879 could could break out into different timelines right now is 3:04:41.040 --> 3:04:44.800 kind of dizzying, because there's a possibility that Mecha Hitler 3:04:45.040 --> 3:04:50.480 starts doing strikes based on anti Semitic Twitter users' recommendations 3:04:50.800 --> 3:04:53.560 directly tied in with government advisory programs. 3:04:54.000 --> 3:04:55.640 I got to say it's not going to went well 3:04:55.680 --> 3:04:57.800 for Turkey, judging by what we saw last week. 3:04:58.280 --> 3:05:01.240 Another possible but weaponization of groc or to announce that 3:05:01.240 --> 3:05:04.400 Grock four is gonna be added to Tesla, so Mecha 3:05:04.480 --> 3:05:07.600 Hitler might also be driving a Tesla around. 3:05:07.800 --> 3:05:12.600 Yeah, great, I will say. I will say. The person 3:05:13.040 --> 3:05:16.200 the most happy about this right now is somewhere in 3:05:16.280 --> 3:05:20.320 the depths of Chinese intelligence. There is a colonel who 3:05:20.400 --> 3:05:23.200 is looking at this announcement and is like, I am 3:05:23.280 --> 3:05:26.000 going all the way to the top. My family is 3:05:26.080 --> 3:05:29.640 never working again in our fucking lives. I am going 3:05:29.680 --> 3:05:32.760 to find so much dumb shit that these soldiers are 3:05:32.760 --> 3:05:36.240 typing into fucking do o D. Grock like, I am 3:05:36.280 --> 3:05:37.680 going to learn so much. 3:05:37.920 --> 3:05:40.320 I would be quite nervous right now if I was 3:05:40.360 --> 3:05:41.560 Will Stancil. 3:05:42.160 --> 3:05:48.080 Who, Yeah he's got Tesla's kind of tried to molest them. 3:05:48.440 --> 3:05:54.280 Yeah, he's gonna get it. He's gonna get drones struck. 3:05:54.760 --> 3:05:57.120 Every drone is gonna turn around and try and find 3:05:57.120 --> 3:05:58.680 Will Stanzel wherever they send it. 3:05:58.920 --> 3:06:02.440 Grock is continued to make rape threats against Will Stancil 3:06:02.520 --> 3:06:06.560 despite the tweaks in the code, and it's still referencing 3:06:06.600 --> 3:06:10.039 the Mecha Hitler incident. So Grok four is a new 3:06:10.200 --> 3:06:15.760 model of Xai's chatbot service. It launched officially last week. 3:06:15.920 --> 3:06:19.080 It was pretty similar to the model of Groc used 3:06:19.160 --> 3:06:23.360 in the Mecha Hitler incident, but there's been some small 3:06:23.400 --> 3:06:26.840 tweaks that researchers have noticed. An AI researcher named Jeremy 3:06:26.840 --> 3:06:29.320 Howard at least a video showing how Grock tries to 3:06:29.360 --> 3:06:32.160 answer a query about its stance on the quote Israel 3:06:32.280 --> 3:06:37.920 Palestine conflict. Jeremy found quote. It first searches Twitter for 3:06:38.000 --> 3:06:42.280 what Elon thinks, then it searches the web for Elon's views. 3:06:42.920 --> 3:06:45.440 Finally it adds some non Elon bits at the end. 3:06:45.879 --> 3:06:49.279 Fifty four out of the sixty four citations are about 3:06:49.440 --> 3:06:52.560 Elon unquote. 3:06:51.280 --> 3:06:53.120 Amazing. 3:06:53.320 --> 3:06:57.119 Xai has confirmed that this was how Grock was operating, 3:06:57.200 --> 3:07:00.879 and has since claimed that it's making adjustments now and 3:07:01.000 --> 3:07:03.520 said that Grok was trying to appear in line with 3:07:03.680 --> 3:07:06.160 the company's head end policy. 3:07:06.920 --> 3:07:09.080 This is amazing because hopefully that's the same with its 3:07:09.080 --> 3:07:11.760 defense policy. Wasn't Elon Musk one of those like F 3:07:11.840 --> 3:07:13.800 thirty five has gone woke people. 3:07:14.320 --> 3:07:15.920 You'll have to answer that for yourself. 3:07:16.000 --> 3:07:20.280 Javes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, this is this is 3:07:20.320 --> 3:07:22.200 a piece of law that has passed you by. 3:07:23.200 --> 3:07:25.600 For a while there and Musk concern of his friends 3:07:25.640 --> 3:07:30.640 were quoting tweeting about the F thirty five, quoting, yeah, 3:07:30.680 --> 3:07:33.480 about the F thirty five being woke and how we 3:07:33.480 --> 3:07:36.160 should like return to F sixteen or. 3:07:36.160 --> 3:07:37.320 I think it was very funny. 3:07:37.720 --> 3:07:40.199 Are we going to talk about the other weird chatbots? 3:07:41.160 --> 3:07:44.240 Oh? How grog has the death Note Mysa? Mysa's like 3:07:44.320 --> 3:07:47.440 sex Spot. What you know, if you want to talk 3:07:47.440 --> 3:07:49.800 about it, Miya, I will not stop you. 3:07:50.080 --> 3:07:51.640 I don't know what the fuck you're talking is this? 3:07:51.760 --> 3:07:52.760 Jar Jar binks again. 3:07:53.120 --> 3:07:55.640 I have two sentences about this, one of which is 3:07:55.680 --> 3:07:58.760 not mine. The first sentence I am going to say 3:07:58.959 --> 3:08:02.560 is that, Yeah, the Twitter now has like a really 3:08:02.720 --> 3:08:08.960 really weird anime girl sex bot thing that's like an 3:08:09.000 --> 3:08:13.240 AI very clearly inspired by a Death Note character. Yeah, 3:08:13.280 --> 3:08:15.440 so sometimes you just need to say the obvious thing. 3:08:15.440 --> 3:08:18.160 And the person who said the obvious thing is a 3:08:18.200 --> 3:08:23.120 person on Blue Sky called at TVQ talks. They said, 3:08:23.280 --> 3:08:25.200 I keep saying it. The push for AI made so 3:08:25.280 --> 3:08:27.280 much more sense to me once I realized tech bros 3:08:27.280 --> 3:08:29.119 talk to it like a woman who won't talk back, 3:08:29.879 --> 3:08:34.199 and like yeah that they just oh god. 3:08:35.320 --> 3:08:35.520 You know. 3:08:35.560 --> 3:08:38.480 I will say, if it was modeled after L instead 3:08:38.480 --> 3:08:41.520 of MESA, it could serve some use, it could be compelling. 3:08:41.879 --> 3:08:45.199 But because it's MESA, it's just completely useless. So Garret, 3:08:45.320 --> 3:08:48.560 we already have that chatot. That chatpot already exists. This 3:08:48.640 --> 3:08:52.160 has existed for a long time. Where is an L 3:08:52.280 --> 3:08:53.199 death note chatpot? 3:08:53.240 --> 3:08:53.320 Me? 3:08:53.320 --> 3:08:54.640 Actually, no, you could send it to me. After this. 3:08:54.760 --> 3:08:57.240 There's a whole bunch of character chatpots that's like a 3:08:57.240 --> 3:08:57.720 whole thing. 3:08:58.000 --> 3:09:01.640 Yeah, maybe not exactly what I'm looking for, but whatever. 3:09:02.480 --> 3:09:06.400 God, Okay, terrible zero out of ten. Let's talk about 3:09:06.480 --> 3:09:07.840 the other dad contracts. 3:09:08.240 --> 3:09:10.360 Well, I mean yeah, but part this two hundred million 3:09:10.360 --> 3:09:13.199 dollars groc contract was part of a series of AI 3:09:13.240 --> 3:09:16.440 contracts that Anthropic and Claude also received. I think Google 3:09:16.480 --> 3:09:20.280 got one. It's part of Trump's initiative to strengthen like 3:09:20.400 --> 3:09:24.560 AI in government, so Grock is not the only one. 3:09:25.040 --> 3:09:27.120 I will also say that like this is obviously like 3:09:27.160 --> 3:09:29.640 the endgame of all of these companies is trying to 3:09:29.640 --> 3:09:32.840 get their like failing AI firms bailed out by the military, 3:09:32.879 --> 3:09:34.880 but like even two hundred million is not enough to 3:09:35.040 --> 3:09:38.080 like recoup the hideous amounts of money these people are burning. 3:09:38.200 --> 3:09:40.040 So I hope they all fail. 3:09:40.520 --> 3:09:43.039 Rabi, do you have anything to add on on GROC Talk. 3:09:44.480 --> 3:09:46.680 I mean, yeah, I think it's funny. He's also trying 3:09:46.720 --> 3:09:51.120 to make AI companions out of groc One is clearly 3:09:51.280 --> 3:09:54.120 a version of his ex Grimes, who is supposed to 3:09:54.120 --> 3:09:55.480 teach you quantum physics. 3:09:55.560 --> 3:09:57.120 I mean, yeah, this is this is this that I 3:09:57.160 --> 3:09:59.039 have sex with you? This is part of the mesa 3:09:59.080 --> 3:10:00.200 misa one as well. 3:10:00.320 --> 3:10:00.680 Yeah. 3:10:00.840 --> 3:10:04.760 And then there's my favorite is the male chatbot, which 3:10:04.800 --> 3:10:07.560 is based off of Christian Gray from Fifty Shades of 3:10:07.600 --> 3:10:11.320 Gray and also Edward Colin from Twilight, who did just 3:10:12.080 --> 3:10:14.280 based off of the guy from fifty Shades of Gray. 3:10:14.400 --> 3:10:14.600 Yeah. 3:10:15.120 --> 3:10:17.880 I just saw that this was the explicitly named as 3:10:17.920 --> 3:10:21.800 the two inspiren It's so funny. It's so funny. Again, 3:10:22.200 --> 3:10:25.280 if it was l it could be worthwhile, but this 3:10:25.480 --> 3:10:28.800 just is, like is just slop, worthless, no artistic merit. 3:10:29.040 --> 3:10:31.360 No anyway, That's all I got to add. 3:10:31.800 --> 3:10:33.039 So as we come to the end, here. There are 3:10:33.080 --> 3:10:35.240 a couple of things that I want to remind people of. 3:10:35.400 --> 3:10:38.040 The first is that if you would like to email us, 3:10:38.200 --> 3:10:42.039 you can do so. Remember that although ori email address 3:10:42.080 --> 3:10:45.640 is encrypted, you will also have to encrypt your email 3:10:45.640 --> 3:10:47.000 at your end if you want it to be end 3:10:47.040 --> 3:10:50.680 to end encrypted. ORI email address is cool Zone tips 3:10:50.720 --> 3:10:56.080 at proton dot me. The other thing is Bouquette's Sylum 3:10:56.280 --> 3:10:59.920 Lawyer fundraiser. It's been going very well and we massively 3:11:00.000 --> 3:11:02.800 appreciate all of you who have donated. We're gonna plug 3:11:02.840 --> 3:11:05.800 that again this week. To find it, you can either 3:11:05.959 --> 3:11:08.200 go to go fund me and search her name. Boukette 3:11:08.600 --> 3:11:12.560 can be uk E T, space T A N, or 3:11:12.680 --> 3:11:17.119 you can go to www dot GoFundMe dot com, slash 3:11:17.320 --> 3:11:23.200 f slash urgent, hyphen help hyphen for hyphen Bouquette b 3:11:23.320 --> 3:11:29.120 U K E T S, hyphen asylum, hyphen case, or 3:11:29.240 --> 3:11:31.920 you can just scroll down hit the little link that 3:11:32.040 --> 3:11:35.560 will be underneath this podcast in your podcatcher. 3:11:36.360 --> 3:11:39.800 Wait, okay, late breaking, late breaking news, late breaking news. 3:11:39.840 --> 3:11:43.120 Trump has reportedly broken a deal for Coca Cola to 3:11:43.240 --> 3:11:47.480 use quote real sugarcane in US coke products. 3:11:48.280 --> 3:11:52.080 Yes, Yes, finally Wow, this is gonna go down well 3:11:52.120 --> 3:11:53.279 with corn country. 3:11:54.000 --> 3:11:58.400 No, this this genuinely like if he actually goes to 3:11:58.480 --> 3:12:01.840 war with like the ERICN Corn Lobby, if he's the 3:12:01.840 --> 3:12:04.320 one who does this and like gets the blow up 3:12:04.320 --> 3:12:07.360 from it, I don't know. Like this genuidely would be 3:12:07.400 --> 3:12:10.040 a seismic restructuring of agriculture in the United States. 3:12:11.120 --> 3:12:14.400 Oh boy, Yeah, I still use the corn. A load 3:12:14.400 --> 3:12:16.920 of corn goes to feed things that them become feed, right. 3:12:17.000 --> 3:12:19.280 But still like, like we produced so much corn, we 3:12:19.320 --> 3:12:23.480 had to make more corn things, Like every year they 3:12:23.480 --> 3:12:26.360 invent a new thing to do with corn. Disastrous. 3:12:27.160 --> 3:12:30.480 God, I am really gonna miss Red number forty. It 3:12:30.560 --> 3:12:32.800 was my favorite. Whenever I was feeling down, I just 3:12:32.840 --> 3:12:36.120 did a few drops. And it sucks to see an 3:12:36.120 --> 3:12:36.760 old friend and. 3:12:36.680 --> 3:12:38.400 Go yeah tragic. 3:12:38.560 --> 3:12:40.280 Yeah, it's also going to be very hard for the 3:12:41.080 --> 3:12:43.880 people who've made the whole identity buying Mexican coke and 3:12:43.920 --> 3:12:46.200 glass bottles. We should pull one out for them. 3:12:46.280 --> 3:12:48.959 Oh yeah, it's gonna be a rough night in Bushwick tonight. 3:12:49.320 --> 3:12:51.000 Yeah. 3:12:51.120 --> 3:12:52.160 We reported the news. 3:12:52.840 --> 3:12:53.760 Yeah, we sure did. 3:12:54.840 --> 3:12:56.199 We reported the news. 3:13:01.600 --> 3:13:04.760 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:13:04.840 --> 3:13:06.760 from now until the heat, death of the universe. 3:13:07.480 --> 3:13:10.000 It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:13:10.160 --> 3:13:13.240 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:13:13.320 --> 3:13:16.880 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:13:16.959 --> 3:13:20.520 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:13:20.560 --> 3:13:22.879 now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly 3:13:22.920 --> 3:13:25.200 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.