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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome, take it up. And here I'm joined

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Speaker 3: once again.

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Speaker 4: By your Sadavas.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, Hello, And recently I was reading through a

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Speaker 3: photo book called Humans by Brandon Stanton. It features interviews

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Speaker 3: of people on the streets all over the world. He

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Speaker 3: starts it off and he kind of became well known

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Speaker 3: online for the Humans of New York series. I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure if you've heard of that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So he did that for a while and

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Speaker 3: he ended up traveling to other parts of the world

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Speaker 3: and doing basically the same thing, just interview people on

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Speaker 3: the street, getting their insights, hearing their struggles, hearing their story.

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Speaker 3: And when I saw the book in the library, I

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Speaker 3: just I picked it up or it decided to read

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Speaker 3: it through and it's really profound in a sense, and

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Speaker 3: you get a sense of the spectrum of humanity, of

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Speaker 3: what people are going through, of the highs and lows

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Speaker 3: of the human experience. And I mean, it can make

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Speaker 3: you laugh on one page and make you cry for

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Speaker 3: the next page. And seeing that variety of humanity reminded

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Speaker 3: me of another book that I read and finished recently,

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Speaker 3: which is called Humankind Hopeful History by Rutka Bregmant. A

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Speaker 3: friend of mine had given it to me because he

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Speaker 3: said it had changed his whole view on the world.

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Speaker 3: And so I wanted to talk about some of the

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Speaker 3: concepts that I picked up in that book, like the

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Speaker 3: origins and critiques of veneer theory, why most people are

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Speaker 3: actually pretty decent, and the problems with some of the

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Speaker 3: narratives of our wickedness and the next up. So would

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Speaker 3: I want to get into some of the reasons why

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Speaker 3: people do bad and what we can do about it?

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Speaker 4: Sounds exciting because there is a lot of bad right now.

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Speaker 3: That is there is I mean as on that stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what would you say is the most common

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Speaker 3: perspective you hear on humanity? On human nature?

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Speaker 4: I don't know, like there's there's this clash between like

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Speaker 4: this like liberal humanist version and then this like Christian

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Speaker 4: moralist version I guess like in the States right now,

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Speaker 4: but that's been going on for decades, if not centuries.

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Speaker 3: By liberal humanists on Christian I mean, I think I

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Speaker 3: get a sense of what the Christian moralist version is, right,

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Speaker 3: that we are all sinful, destined for hell and ey salvation,

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Speaker 3: that that version.

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Speaker 4: Of the story, yeah, you know, more or less.

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Speaker 3: And the liberal humanist perspective is I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, I don't know, like this this this forever search

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Speaker 4: for like what human rights are and like human decency.

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Speaker 4: So we come up with like governments and rules to

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Speaker 4: actually like govern over our morals as a democratic process

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Speaker 4: that continues to evolve over the course of like hundreds

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Speaker 4: of years. We're like, you know, on the moral arc

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Speaker 4: of the universe, just not fully you know there yet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard that perspective, I think most commonly and

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Speaker 3: decent in my space, as I tend to hear the

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Speaker 3: you know, people are wicked, people are sinful and religious cases,

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Speaker 3: or people are violent, people are selfish, and that kind

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Speaker 3: of in that similar namrelving where we have these systems

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Speaker 3: in place to kind of check our impulses, to kind

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Speaker 3: of keep us regulated and to keep society functioning. And

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Speaker 3: Bregman opens his book by discussing the idea of civilization

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Speaker 3: being a thin mask that covers our true savage instincts.

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Speaker 3: He calls it the Vinea theory, and he spends the

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Speaker 3: rest of the book basically pointing out all the different

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Speaker 3: errors in that judgment. I mean, he doesn't claim that

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Speaker 3: we're all good people, happy, go lucky, saying so anything

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Speaker 3: like that, but he does see it for the most part,

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Speaker 3: most people are pretty decent that I know that clashes

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Speaker 3: with all a lot of people are accustomed to hearing,

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Speaker 3: and there are some very notable exceptions. But despite the

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Speaker 3: efforts of elite to paint and purport a different picture,

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Speaker 3: there's actually a lot more leaning towards our decent, if

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Speaker 3: not good nature and the contrary. But of course, of

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Speaker 3: these kind of conversations, you always had to go back

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Speaker 3: to the debate between Thomas Hobbes and Sean Jackers, So

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Speaker 3: we can't escape these guys. Hobbes, of course, had the

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Speaker 3: perspective in Leviathan, which was written in sixteen fifty one,

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Speaker 3: that in the absence of a strong central authority. Human

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Speaker 3: beings would live in a condition of perpetual war, with

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Speaker 3: every man against every other man, a war of war

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Speaker 3: against all. As it would have put it so to him,

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Speaker 3: people are naturally self interested and driven by the desire

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Speaker 3: for power and survival. So without laws or a sovereign

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Speaker 3: to keep them in check, individuals would act purely on

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Speaker 3: their own instincts, lead into constant conflict over resources, safety,

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Speaker 3: and dominance. Life in this state of nature would be

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Speaker 3: solitary for nasty, brutish, and short. A couple of years later,

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Speaker 3: a couple of decades later, Rousseau was writing in the

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Speaker 3: Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality among Men,

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Speaker 3: and he basically flipped hobbsview on its head. He believed

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Speaker 3: that humans in the state of nature were peaceful, cooperative,

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Speaker 3: and guided by basic needs and compassion, and there was

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Speaker 3: a development of hierarchies and institutions that had led to inequality.

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Speaker 3: Jealousy and competition were basically corrupted human age. In his words,

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Speaker 3: man is born free and everywhere he is in chains.

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Speaker 3: Do you take a side in this debate?

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Speaker 4: By the way er not to be the centrist option,

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Speaker 4: But I don't know. I think I think both these

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Speaker 4: things play into each other. I definitely don't believe in

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Speaker 4: the idea that like this state is the only thing

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Speaker 4: that reigns people in and stops them from doing a

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Speaker 4: moral acts. Right, It's the same thing as like without

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Speaker 4: without God or without the Bible, then everyone would just

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Speaker 4: be like raping and murdering it. Meanwhile, actual Christians obviously

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Speaker 4: rape and murder all the time anyway. But like, no,

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Speaker 4: like this this idea isn't the only thing that keeps

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Speaker 4: you from becoming this like you know, savage like inhuman monster.

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Speaker 4: People can be morally good without this this like religious notion.

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Speaker 4: And I think in some ways the state can also

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Speaker 4: operate as a religious notion to these people, where you know,

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Speaker 4: the police is the only thing that's keeping you from

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Speaker 4: becoming this like horrible monster who's for a typerone around you.

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Speaker 4: But I also have my sympathies to the like alternate

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Speaker 4: side of that, And I can see there's a great

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Speaker 4: deal of oppression and horrific violence that can only happen

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Speaker 4: at scale under the organization of a state. So I

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Speaker 4: will pick the annoying centris option.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that there's a lot of people who

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Speaker 3: have the sense that you know, the state and the laws,

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Speaker 3: all that standing between us and the purge or mad

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Speaker 3: Max or something like that. Sure, exactly, So, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: don't think that Hobbes's over generalization of human nature as

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Speaker 3: inherently violent and selfish holds up when you look at

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Speaker 3: the diversity of human experience and human societies. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's not to say that violence and conflict were absent

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Speaker 3: in a world out state, but you know, contact, matters, resources, environment,

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Speaker 3: group size, all those things would have played roles. I

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Speaker 3: don't think that we should be accepting Rousseau's romantic light either,

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Speaker 3: So I guess I'm in the centris with you. The

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Speaker 3: truth does seem to lie somewhere in that middle ground.

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Speaker 3: That human nature is flexible and then it's shaped by social, ecological,

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Speaker 3: and historical contexts of what's getting the weeds of humanity's

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Speaker 3: origins is stimulating as an exercise, but there's only so

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Speaker 3: much we can know about the past for certain. What

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Speaker 3: we can't know for certain is the present, And what

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Speaker 3: we've seen in the present is that when disaster strikes,

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Speaker 3: people have tended to help each other. In Hurricane Katrina

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and five, the official response was famously

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Speaker 3: criticized for being slow and disorganized. And yet despite media

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Speaker 3: attempts to pay in these people as looters and thugs

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Speaker 3: and all these different things, community members, neighbors, volunteers all

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Speaker 3: stepped up to rescue people, to mobilize food, shelter and

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Speaker 3: basic aid, to expropriate when necessary, to get people what

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Speaker 3: they needed, long before federal agencies gone on the scene. Similarly,

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Speaker 3: in a more recent occurrence, after the Cranfelt Tower fire

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Speaker 3: in the UK in twenty seventeen, the official channels had

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Speaker 3: failed the people of that tower. Many diet as a result.

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Speaker 3: Regulations that were supposed to protect people were not enforced

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Speaker 3: or were absent. And yet it was community members who

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Speaker 3: sprang into action to provide water and shelter and food

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Speaker 3: and clothes and emotional support even when the twin towers

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Speaker 3: fell on Spement eleven, two thousand and one. And this

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Speaker 3: is an example that brag when I actually spent some

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Speaker 3: time talking about people actually helped people descend the stairwells

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Speaker 3: in an orderly fashion. You know, they would say, you know,

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Speaker 3: after you going down the stairs, and passers by would

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Speaker 3: go in and help others to evacuate and assist the

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Speaker 3: wounded law before the emergency services arrived. So people acted

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Speaker 3: and prioritize helping others even in a disaster scenario. And

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Speaker 3: yet what do we see in dystopian fiction. In apocalyptic fiction,

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Speaker 3: you see people just like driving around shooting guns in

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Speaker 3: the air. You see the purge, you see the mad Max,

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Speaker 3: you see the zombie apocalypse scenarios. In Rebecca Solnet's book,

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Speaker 3: A Paradise Built in Hell, she found that disasters peeled

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Speaker 3: back the layers of society and revealed the empathy, cooperation,

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Speaker 3: and care at humanity's core. She noted that when disaster

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Speaker 3: strikes is when people most often reveal the better natures.

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Speaker 3: And yet those negative narratives tend to have more sway

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Speaker 3: in the popular imagination.

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Speaker 4: No, and this is like so true. I remember in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty, during the wildfires on the West Coast, the

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Speaker 4: anarchist response was to set up these like giant like

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Speaker 4: mutual aids centers. Were people fleeing from the fire, you know,

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Speaker 4: like not like other anarchists, just like regular people fleeing

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Speaker 4: from the fire could get necessities and figure out housing. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 4: right wing militias were setting up checkpoints monitoring to make

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Speaker 4: sure Antifa wasn't, you know, like raiding people's homes as

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Speaker 4: they were fleeing from the fires. Like these were the

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Speaker 4: two options you had. You had you had anarchists actually

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Speaker 4: helping the people who were who were fleeing from this

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Speaker 4: horrific fire and setting up like massive, massive, like aid

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Speaker 4: distribution centers. Meanwhile right wing militias were pulling people over

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Speaker 4: at gunpoint making sure Antifa wasn't up to any shenanigans.

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Speaker 4: And similar stuff happened last year during Hurricane Helene on

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Speaker 4: the East Coast, where you had a whole bunch of

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Speaker 4: like Southeast anarchists in the Appalachians do mutual a disaster response.

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Speaker 4: Meanwhile right wing militias were spreading rumors about like FEMA

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Speaker 4: fraud and all of all of this crazy stuff, not

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Speaker 4: actually helping anybody. But it was anarchists doing a large

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Speaker 4: a large amount of the actual like water distribution and

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Speaker 4: like medical assistance on the ground as the federal response

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Speaker 4: was delayed and insufficient.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I was aware of the anarchist efforts

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Speaker 3: during these disasters, but I wasn't. I didn't know about

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Speaker 3: that that situation with the riving militias setting up checkpoints.

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Speaker 3: That's not shocking, but still wild, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's so funny because those are the people,

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Speaker 4: you know, claiming that, you know, without the government, we

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Speaker 4: would have the purge, the anarchists would just go around

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Speaker 4: doing all kinds of crazy crimes. I get when things

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Speaker 4: actually happen, their attempts to like deputize them as like

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Speaker 4: their own police force actually creates those conditions. Meanwhile, anarchists

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Speaker 4: are the ones actually helping.

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Speaker 3: People exactly exactly. And yet despite these situations, these these

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Speaker 3: things happen again and again, we still have these popular narratives.

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Speaker 3: You don't know, the narrative I see referenced all the

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Speaker 3: time Lord of the Flies.

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Speaker 4: Yes, of course, of course.

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Speaker 3: All the time. Right, It's basically become a cultural shorthand

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Speaker 3: for the idea that people are just savage at heart,

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Speaker 3: that this veneer civilization is the only thing keeping us

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Speaker 3: in check. I mean, these days, I do see people

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Speaker 3: joking that it's because those were British boys.

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Speaker 4: So true, actually, so true.

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Speaker 3: But while I get the joke, I think it's also

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Speaker 3: important to remember that it's like people are taking this

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Speaker 3: work of fiction as if it's an anthropological study. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: when it's just something that a guy made up as

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Speaker 3: an analogy for, you know, the situation during World War Two.

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Speaker 4: I think it's also good to remember that the British

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Speaker 4: are people too. I have a British co worker, so

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Speaker 4: you know, we have to we have to show them

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Speaker 4: a little bit of human human dignity exactly exactly.

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Speaker 3: People embrace the story because it confirms what they want

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Speaker 3: to believe in this climate of cynicism. But Bragman actually

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Speaker 3: tells a story in the book about a true instance

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Speaker 3: of when a shipwreck of young boys occurred. Of course,

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Speaker 3: they weren't British boys. There were Tonguean boys as and

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Speaker 3: from the country of Tonga. So in nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 3: six Tonguan boys we were stranded on a remote island

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Speaker 3: for over a year, and rather than descended into violence,

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Speaker 3: they survived through cooperation. You know, the built a garden,

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Speaker 3: they shared duties. They didn't do any human sacrifices. You know,

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Speaker 3: they created a rotor system to get things done. There

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Speaker 3: result conflict. When people were in conflict, they would go

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Speaker 3: on time out. They would put each other on timeout

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Speaker 3: and go on opposite side of the island until the

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Speaker 3: you know, cooler heads prevailed, they figure out ways to

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Speaker 3: deal with their conflicts, to organize themselves without authority and

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Speaker 3: without chaos. But the problem is that these fictional narratives

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Speaker 3: become so powerful instead of the real ones that they

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Speaker 3: have a similar effect to the placeboy effect. In fact,

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Speaker 3: it's the placeboy effect's evil twin, the no sea Boy effect.

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Speaker 3: I've heard about the placebo effect before, and I'm sure

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Speaker 3: you have as well, But for those who don't know,

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Speaker 3: it's basically where someone's health actually improves after receiving what's

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Speaker 3: basically a dummy treatment like a sugar pill or a

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Speaker 3: fake surgery or a saline injection. The body heals itself

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Speaker 3: because the mind of the person believes it's being healed.

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Speaker 3: The mind turns that trust into medicine. I mean, that's

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Speaker 3: just that's amazing to me even now, and they'll quite

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Speaker 3: understand how it works yet, but it's still really cool.

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Speaker 3: But there's another dimension to the placeboy effect that I

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Speaker 3: hadn't heard about before, but it makes intuitive sense. I

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Speaker 3: suppose it's called the no seaboy effect, and Bregman is

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Speaker 3: the one who introduced me to that concept. So the

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Speaker 3: no Seawoy effect is where, instead of belief healing you,

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Speaker 3: it's belief that makes you sick. So people experience real pain,

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Speaker 3: real symptoms, and even real illness, not because there's an

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Speaker 3: actual physical cause, but because in their minds, the ex

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Speaker 3: expect to be harmed, so their minds to that fear

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Speaker 3: of harm into actual harm and injury. And there was

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Speaker 3: one case study that he used where a child had

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Speaker 3: drunk a coke and photo was poisoned and then just

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Speaker 3: created this mass hysteria almost with dozens of children in

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Speaker 3: hospitals with headaches and nausea and pardic attacks because they

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Speaker 3: drank coke, to the point where Coca Cola actually had

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Speaker 3: to recall all of those drinks, even though tests had

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Speaker 3: shown that there was nothing in the drinks that were

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Speaker 3: making people sick, but their body still responded as if

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Speaker 3: there was because they believed they heard the story, they

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Speaker 3: heard about it, they saw what happened to others, and

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Speaker 3: they believed it would happened to them. And that's the

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Speaker 3: no super effect in action, right, So we get the concept.

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Speaker 3: So Bregman actually stretched these concepts beyond the field of medicine,

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Speaker 3: and he basically made the point that what if these

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Speaker 3: contents are abate into how we view each other. You know,

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Speaker 3: so what if I believe that people are selfish and

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Speaker 3: cruel and violent by nature? Actually makes it so, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you expect the worst from people, you'll act on that.

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Speaker 3: You know, you might be colder or more defensive, or

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Speaker 3: more likely to punish or preempt betrayal. And what happens

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Speaker 3: as a result is that, you know, people pick up

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Speaker 3: on that energy. They're spawning kind they withdraw, they retaliate,

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Speaker 3: and then that cycle ends up feeding itself. And so

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Speaker 3: the belief that negative belief becomes a social reality, a

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Speaker 3: self fulfilling prophecy. So we end up building institutions that

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Speaker 3: are based on that cynical expectation. We design policies that

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Speaker 3: are based around the punishment we are, train ourselves to

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Speaker 3: see strangers as threats rather than as neighbors. And then

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Speaker 3: when we have a fallout, as when that prophecy is

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Speaker 3: fulfilled by our own actions, we can then say, well,

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Speaker 3: see I was right. You know, people are awful. But

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Speaker 3: what we don't see is that our expectations and the

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Speaker 3: systems we build around those expectations are part of what

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Speaker 3: ends up making it that way. I think an easy

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Speaker 3: example to going to is with prison. Right, people expect

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Speaker 3: criminals to act like animals, to act like monsters to beasts,

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Speaker 3: and so they create prisons, and then those prisons treat

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Speaker 3: them like animals, monsters and beasts, and people respond to that.

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Speaker 3: You know, you treat people like animals, they're going to

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Speaker 3: behave like animals. So then the question that Bragmann poses

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Speaker 3: is what happens if we decide to treat people like

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Speaker 3: their good you know, trusting their intentions, leaning into care,

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Speaker 3: and building our systems around the assumption that most people

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Speaker 3: are decent. So how do we make that leap? I

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Speaker 3: said before that you know, we don't really necessarily need

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Speaker 3: to go into the past to see how people behave

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Speaker 3: in the present, but it's a good idea to get

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Speaker 3: a sense of how we evolved.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people have a brutal perception of human evolution.

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Speaker 3: You know, they track comparisons between us and chimpanzees, or

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Speaker 3: you know, they make it see first of all, like

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Speaker 3: norn bernobos entirely and also ignoring the fact that we

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Speaker 3: are our own species with our own evolutionary history. You know,

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Speaker 3: people that are very cynical and honestly insultant, like view

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Speaker 3: of like the cave men of our past, but our

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Speaker 3: histories are actually pretty soft. In fact, Bragman argues in

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Speaker 3: favor of something called self domestication theory, which has a

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Speaker 3: little bit of anthropological and evolutionary biological back in. And

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Speaker 3: so the basic claim of this theory is that the

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Speaker 3: reason Homo sapiens survived and other ancient humans didn't isn't

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Speaker 3: because you were the strongest, or the smartest, or the

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Speaker 3: most cunning, or because you were friendlier. That we evolve

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Speaker 3: to be more social, cooperative, playful, and trusting. Self domestication

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Speaker 3: theorists basically compare humans as to the other Homo species

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Speaker 3: as wolves. That we domesticate ourselves to become less aggressive,

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Speaker 3: or faces softened, our bodies became less robust, and our

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Speaker 3: openness and friendliness allowed us to build relationships, to build groups,

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Speaker 3: to raise children, community, and to survive. And so if

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Speaker 3: we accept our theory, we acknowledge that and build that

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Speaker 3: into our foundation, that we did evolve our capacity to

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Speaker 3: be kind, that it is something that is within our humanity,

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Speaker 3: that it's not a fragile gloss over savagery or a

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Speaker 3: morality that's given to us by religional law. Then we

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Speaker 3: can basically become who were capable of becoming, you know,

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Speaker 3: we can create systems that allow us to develop that.

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Speaker 3: And this sounds really optimistic, This sounds really happy, go

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Speaker 3: lucky and woo. And we are going to get into

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Speaker 3: some of the darker chapters of our humanity in the

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Speaker 3: next episode. But I wanted to wrap this one up

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Speaker 3: by unpacking the death of Catherine Kitty Genevieve's in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty four. It's another example the Breckman refers to in

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Speaker 3: his book, and it's one of the classic case studies

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Speaker 3: that was used for a long time to illustrate the

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Speaker 3: apathy and cold hotness of humanity. Because the New York Times,

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Speaker 3: which as we all know, is a reputable and trustworthy institution,

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Speaker 3: The New York Times claimed that she was stabbed in

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Speaker 3: the street while thirty eight neighbors looked on and did

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Speaker 3: nothing right. This was the quintessential story that was used

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, look at that, bystand the effect

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Speaker 3: humans just don't care, you know. There was used as

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Speaker 3: an example of apathy, of urban de kay, of everything

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Speaker 3: wrong with us. But the story was wrong. The reporters

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Speaker 3: will to help this story and it was wrong. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 3: she was murdered, but people did try to help. Someone

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Speaker 3: called the police, but this was in a time before

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Speaker 3: nine one one, so it was yet to call like

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Speaker 3: the local station, and then the response process was a

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Speaker 3: bit slow. One neighbor actually rushed out and held her

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Speaker 3: as she died, held her in their arms. So the

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Speaker 3: press spun this story as like some bleak tale, and

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Speaker 3: the few of psychology ate it up because it was

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Speaker 3: part of a trend at the time to create this

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Speaker 3: perception of humanity. But the real story was a lot

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Speaker 3: more hearing, a lot more human. I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: messy and somebody still murdered her. But this idea of

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Speaker 3: the vistandary fact that has been so inflated, A lot

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Speaker 3: of the key studies that have been used as examples

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Speaker 3: of them have been chipped away at over time, and

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Speaker 3: that's one of the main stories that has been pretty

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Speaker 3: thoroughly debunked at this point. So I like where bread

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Speaker 3: One's been going. But we've glossed over the dark side,

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Speaker 3: you know, the shadow of our humanity. You know, even

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Speaker 3: he acknowledges in this book that we do bad stuff

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Speaker 3: as well. So the next episode we are going to

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Speaker 3: wade into that, but how you feel in about humanity

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Speaker 3: so far.

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Speaker 4: I think I actually do have an underlying optimism like

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Speaker 4: beneath how I move around in the world, which is

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Speaker 4: which is kind of odd considering the sort of stuff

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Speaker 4: I do for work, but it is true, and I

394
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Speaker 4: think part of that is what just keeps me going.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, like, yeah, I've certainly been around my

396
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Speaker 4: fair share of like doomers and nihilists over the years,

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Speaker 4: and at the very least those people don't seem to

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Speaker 4: be very happy and don't seem to be enjoying life,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes it's hard to enjoy life, absolutely, but I

400
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Speaker 4: think you need to be able to find a place

401
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Speaker 4: for yourself within a world that has like evil as

402
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Speaker 4: a almost inherent component and find your way either through that,

403
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Speaker 4: sometimes around that, but oftentimes through it. And I think

404
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Speaker 4: that's I mean, that's that's just been a part of

405
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Speaker 4: like growing up. We're certainly growing up in like a

406
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Speaker 4: weird time, but I think that's kind of always been true,

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Speaker 4: Like that's that was that was true one hundred years ago.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know, I a part of me and

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Speaker 4: maybe this is just over the optimistic, but but part

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Speaker 4: of me continues to resist being a doomer despite all

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Speaker 4: of the bad news that is trying to infiltrate my

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Speaker 4: brain at all times, which is which is a very

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Speaker 4: profitable industry, right. I mean that's somewhat kind of what

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Speaker 4: this show is, right. It kind of does play into

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Speaker 4: those instincts for sure, which is which is something that

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Speaker 4: like we critique amongst ourselves often and we try to

417
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Speaker 4: always find that balance as well. But but yeah, like

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Speaker 4: the doom cycle is like a is a is a

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Speaker 4: huge industry, and there's there's people that absolutely want you

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Speaker 4: to always be panicking all the time. Yeah, and that

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Speaker 4: drives consumer choices, that drives ad revenue, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean Bregman puts forward a very compellent argument in

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Speaker 3: the book actually that the news is a public health

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Speaker 3: asset totally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, like absolutely, and like I have to keep

426
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Speaker 4: up with the news all the time, and I don't

427
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Speaker 4: think it affects me that much anymore. And certainly in

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Speaker 4: you know, doing a daily news show, we try to

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Speaker 4: be very selective in the things that we cover. We

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Speaker 4: don't cover everything all the time. We try to cover

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Speaker 4: the things that, like our our hosts feel is both

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Speaker 4: like within their wheelhouse and that people who listen to

433
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 4: the show should know about write certain things that you

434
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 4: might not be hearing about in like a mainstream news.

435
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 4: But but no, the news has a massive h thing

436
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 4: spiritual evil to it as well. There is there is

437
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 4: a sinister undercurrent to to like the news like as

438
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 4: like an industry indeed, and that's something that we are

439
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 4: also always like butting up against. Well on that, on

440
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 4: that optimistic note.

441
00:25:49,240 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, until next time, we'll follow it to all the people. Peace, Hello,

442
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 3: and welcome to it happen here last episode I was joined.

443
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 4: By your savior.

444
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 3: Hello, Ada's here again because we're gonna get more into

445
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 3: what we spoke about last time. Last episode, we painted

446
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: a hopeful account of humanity's nature. Could see if my

447
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: reading of Rutka Bregman's Humankind a hopeful history. So I

448
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 3: probably fed into the anarchists so utopia narrative a bit

449
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: with that previous episode. But the truth is that I'm

450
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 3: not really being optimistic. I'm being realistic. But realism has

451
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 3: been confused with cynonicism for so long that even acknowledging

452
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 3: both sides of the coin can be seen as overly

453
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 3: Utopia can be bad. And we'll get into the why.

454
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: But for whatever reason, they are bad. That is why,

455
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 3: as anarchists have consistently argued, nobody should have authority. Now,

456
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 3: there will always be outliers, and this explanation I'm about

457
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: to share it is not going to get into every

458
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: unique case of badness, but we are going to get

459
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 3: into some of the reasons that people do bad and

460
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: what we can do about it. As I said last episode,

461
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: we took issue with this idea of civilization as a

462
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: thin venail, and we're put forward the premise the Keemans

463
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: are mostly pretty decent. In fact, I didn't mention it

464
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 3: last episode, but we don't even really like to kill

465
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: each other. Contrary to popular belief, brag when actually shares

466
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: that in World War Two, studies showed that many soldiers

467
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 3: didn't shoot their weapons even in combat. Trained soldiers had

468
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: a difficult time actually pulling the trigger and killing people.

469
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: There are exceptions, as I said before, but in a

470
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 3: lot of cases it's very difficult for people to actually kill.

471
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 3: Military strategies ended up changing once authorities realized this, and

472
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: the training programs of soldiers was redesigned to overcome this resistance.

473
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: But that reluctance to killing does also indicate that it

474
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 3: takes some effort to overcome our general decency toward each

475
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: other because most people, again most on all are not

476
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: natural born killers. So again, how do we do bad?

477
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 3: You know, all sorts of atroctees have been carried out

478
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: by humans, both in ancient and modern times. What do

479
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 3: you think is the course.

480
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 4: Self preservation in some way, either physical or psychological. I'm

481
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 4: not an anthropologist, I'm not a sociologist. Most of my

482
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 4: experiences with people is both queer people and then looking

483
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: at Nazis and like political extremists, so it's maybe not

484
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 4: the best sample side for the general population. I think

485
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: I tend to exist kind of on the perimeter of

486
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: most human experience, but probably some form of either psychological

487
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 4: or physical self preservation in my experience slash opinion.

488
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: That's interesting. I didn't think of it. I think it

489
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: comes close to what Bregman ends up getting into. But

490
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: I think self preservation, well, we'll get into that in

491
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 3: a bit. You know, it's it's difficult to square that

492
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: with just how brutal some of these disasters have been.

493
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: You know, these atrocities that have taken place around the world,

494
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: organized systemic industrial cruelty, you know, things like the Holocaust totally.

495
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: It's interesting because I think it's two paradoxical instincts that

496
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 4: play off each other. There's this self preservation and there's

497
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 4: also I believe in I thin guess some version of

498
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: the death drive, and I think those can can interact

499
00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 4: in really odd ways. But I desk drive, yeah, is

500
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 4: specifically like specifically like like fascism, and like you know,

501
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 4: you can see this in like the genocides of the

502
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 4: twentieth century and twenty first centuries, like specifically, but no,

503
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 4: like fascism as like a political embodying of the death drive,

504
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 4: which is I think also an aspect. I think these

505
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: things exist together in parallel while being paradoxical, and that's

506
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: what produces a lot of the incongruity around things like fascism, right,

507
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 4: it is it is like an inherently paradoxical system.

508
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: When you say self preservation, are you just talking about

509
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: on the individual level, or are you seeing like community

510
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: self preservation as well?

511
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 4: Both both but also I think not even just physical

512
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: but also like psychological like being able to like continue

513
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 4: being able to continue existing as yourself, either within a

514
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 4: group of people or just you as an individual. Like

515
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 4: psychological things that you need to do to make yourself

516
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 4: feel like you're in community or that you are safe,

517
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 4: that you have meaning, or that you have purpose as

518
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: well as the physical aspects.

519
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 3: And you're saying that that lends itself to atrocity.

520
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 4: I think it can.

521
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that actually is strikingly close toward

522
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: Bragman ends up uncovering.

523
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 4: Look at the reasons that people will talk about, for

524
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: like why the genocide and Gaza is like necessary, right

525
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 4: it is it is playing off both of those impulses.

526
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean all sorts of genocides when you

527
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: hear the descriptions of them, and this is what you

528
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: hear of the people who perpetuated them, what their explanations

529
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 3: or justifications, you know, from the Holocaust to Rwanda to Palestine.

530
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's me and mar you know, totally.

531
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: It is deeply evil. It's that something we can look

532
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: away from it. It really is difficult to square with

533
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: the most humans a decent thesis when you look at

534
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 3: how some of these society is, even the ordinary people,

535
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: for example, the citizen population of Israel, Evan, the civilian population,

536
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 3: even they are like disturbing the genocide. Oh in their rhetoric,

537
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: and so you know, it's like, how do we reach

538
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: that point? How do we get there? How does an

539
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 3: order marry human bab grow into.

540
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 4: That it can happen to you. It can happen very easily,

541
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 4: and I think it can happen in a short time

542
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 4: span and you can get out of it. I think

543
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 4: maybe not just as easily, but you can't get out

544
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 4: of it also in a fast time span. I think

545
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 4: it's like that you are not immune to propaganda. Idea

546
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 4: you can look at like in Nazi Germany, Robert has

547
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 4: talked about quote unquote the little Nazis, the regular Germans

548
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 4: who ended up partipating and becoming Nazis, and you are

549
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 4: not immune from that, and that can happen as a

550
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 4: response to a whole bunch of traumatic impulses as well.

551
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 4: Whereas I think people now even use like politics just

552
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 4: to You're like this like idea of politics as permission

553
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 4: to be like an overtly cruel person to other people,

554
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 4: either like in your life or online. Right, you will

555
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 4: you will use use various political topics and that gives

556
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 4: you permission to unleash unmitigated hostility against people that you

557
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 4: now perceive as being like immoral or you perceive as

558
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 4: being like ontological and means exactly exactly.

559
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there were particular studies that were undertaken in

560
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: the twentieth century that are often used to sort of

561
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: explain that. You know, after the fall of Nazi Germany

562
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 3: and the post World War II era, people will seeking

563
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 3: explanations for atrocity and so so experiments were done and

564
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: are now pointed to as explanations for how this could

565
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: have taken place. You know. So one particular experiment that's

566
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: really well known as the Stanford prison experiment, right, this

567
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: idea that you take random students and give them a

568
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 3: position of power and they become statistic gods. You know,

569
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: it proves just how thin the ven ale civilization really is,

570
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: or already the evil the civilization could empower. But at

571
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 3: least for that particular experiment, the reality was never so straightforward.

572
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 3: You know, the gods were literally coached and encouraged to

573
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: be cruel. You know, they were actually putting on performances.

574
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: The prisoners were also expected to form. So rather than

575
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: being like an actual scientific experiment, it was more like

576
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 3: guided theater.

577
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 4: I mean it inadvertently it becomes an interesting experiment in

578
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 4: like humans desire to like please authority, right exactly exactly,

579
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 4: to like perform to the expectations of the people who

580
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 4: are actually running this experiment, and how capable you are

581
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 4: of falling into these roles under like under that paradigm exactly.

582
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 3: I mean, you see that in Nazi Germany as well,

583
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: a lot of the people were doing things to please

584
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 3: the fear, you know, like they didn't necessarily know or

585
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 3: there was a lot of wiggle room from what I've read,

586
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 3: to interpret the fear as wishes, yeah, as people who

587
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 3: wanted to rank up and rise up in the in

588
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: the organization, but interpret things in a way that they

589
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 3: would presume would please Pitta and his.

590
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 4: Desires moving towards the fear.

591
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly. That's the that's the name the phenomenon.

592
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: So I mean when when the sound for person experim

593
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: when people tried to recreate the experiment for television, you've

594
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: got it made for pretty boring TV because it was

595
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: bad science in the first place. It's not something that

596
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: people do not actually, it's it's what they do when

597
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: they are pushed, when they are prodded, you know, when

598
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: certain expectations et ceter It's kind of similar with this

599
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: other famous experiment that that Bragman talks about, which is

600
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: the Stanley Milcrumb's Obedience experiment, where volunteers were told to

601
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: administer increasingly painful electric shocks the stranger just because I

602
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: got in a lamp code told them to. It's like

603
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 3: another instance of you know, we doing these things just

604
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: to please authority, even to the point of murder, because

605
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: you know, the the dial of the electric shock was

606
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: deadly after a certain point, and you could hear the

607
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 3: screams of the the victim, of course, the fake screams,

608
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: but you know, the participants could hear them. But what

609
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: Bregman ended up uncovering is that most of the participants

610
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 3: wouldn't follow the orders blindly. They were following the orders, yes,

611
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 3: but they were doing it because they believed that they

612
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 3: were doing something good, something good for the good of science.

613
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 3: That even though the shocks were uncomfortable, that it wasn't

614
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 3: something they wanted to do, there was a noble sacrifice

615
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: in the name of progress. Even so, the participants weren't

616
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 3: in the front. You know, they were distressed, they were shaken,

617
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: they were sweat, and they were begging to check on

618
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: the learner, but they also said things like he agreed

619
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: to be in the experiment, you know, or this will

620
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: help science, right, or I don't want to do this,

621
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 3: but I have to, demanded lab code, who is telling

622
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 3: them to continue? Please continue, Please continue. He was calm,

623
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: he was professional, and also even how in the nudges

624
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: that he used were framed made a difference. So if

625
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: he was directly ordering them and telling them you have

626
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: to do this, surprise, many people would actually be more

627
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: likely to resist a direct order framed in that way

628
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: for such an experiment. But a more subtle nudge just

629
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: like know what, you know science, the experimental requires this,

630
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: you know, the experiment needs to do this. A more

631
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: subtle it tended to get people to continue. And the

632
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 3: people who were interviewed who did take it up to

633
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 3: those higher volagers, they said they did it because they

634
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: believed they were contributing to scientific development. So it's really

635
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: this misguided belief in a higher cause that also contributes

636
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: to atrocity. It's very easy to get this idea that, oh,

637
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: you know that those are just monstrous people. You know,

638
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 3: we have this idea in pop culture that these the

639
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 3: Nazis are like cartoonish monsters. They are monstrous, but they

640
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 3: are monstrous people.

641
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 7: You know.

642
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 3: They are, at the end of the day, people who

643
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 3: do evil with the belief that they're doing good. It's

644
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 3: a very extent. I know that there were some who

645
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 3: you know, recanted or who knew what they were doing wrong,

646
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: but they had other pressures that were pushing them in

647
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 3: a direction. Right. There are many explanations we will behavior

648
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: and all sorts of situations, but a lot of the

649
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 3: people they thought that they were contributing to the right thing.

650
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 3: It's not that they didn't care, but they were taught

651
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: to care in the wrong direction. The bad guys don't

652
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 3: think that they're bad guys. And whether we're talking about

653
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: the Nazis of the past or Designers of today, they

654
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 3: construct these elaborate narratives to frame themselves as the righteous ones.

655
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 3: You know, as far as the Nazis are concerned, they

656
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: are purge in Germany of a serious threat to the

657
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: well the in and the safety of their future and

658
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 3: all that stuff. Right, Designers today, you ask them, even

659
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: though they're pariahs of the world at this point, you

660
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: ask them why they believe that this must continue, and

661
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: they will say you know, we have to defend ourselves,

662
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 3: we have a right to defend ourselves. YadA, YadA, YadA.

663
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 3: There are true believers within these groups, you know, who

664
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 3: are able to commit some of the worst acts, committed

665
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: ideologues who host of their trustees, who express no remortes,

666
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: who take pride in their role, and people reach that

667
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: point of ideology through a process of radicalization. You know,

668
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: we look at the ten stages of genocide, I think

669
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 3: is the framework people have used before to point out

670
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: how a segment of a population can become a target

671
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 3: of genocide. It's not like one day you wake up

672
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 3: and it's just like, oh, we're going to genestid this

673
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: group of people. It's a process.

674
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 7: You know.

675
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 3: First you start off with classification. You create a separate

676
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 3: group of people, separate category of poison. You make them

677
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: signify themselves in some way, carry id cards or some

678
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: kind of insignia on their clothing or whatever. They begin

679
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 3: to face discrimination or some kind the discrimination, you know,

680
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 3: is ramped up through dehumanizing language. You compare them to vement,

681
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: to rodance disease. And that's just the thing, and we're

682
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: going to get to that. But part of how you

683
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 3: get people who would otherwise be here or compassionate about

684
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: their fellow human is through distance. Right, So the people

685
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 3: who who are most of bloodthirsty tend to be very

686
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 3: far from the front lines. You know, people who are

687
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 3: demanding that World War One continue, for example, they were

688
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 3: very far from the actual fighting versus at the actual

689
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: front lines of World War One. You had soldiers playing

690
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 3: football together during Christmas. That's a separate story. But you

691
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 3: create distance, You either create physical distance or you create

692
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 3: psychological distance. And dehumanization is one of the ways you

693
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: create psychological distance. You distance people from seeing their fellow

694
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 3: human being as a human being. Segregation is another way

695
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: of creating that distance, which then lends itself to the humanization.

696
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 3: Comparing people to women too, animals, anything other than human

697
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: as another step in the humanization and can people to

698
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 3: separate themselves from those people. And then they create specific groups.

699
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 3: The next stage to create specific groups and organization to

700
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 3: enforce discriminatory policies. You further broadcast operate the propaganda to

701
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 3: polarize population. And then we'll step seven, eight, nine, and

702
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 3: ten go from actually preparing the removal relocation of people

703
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 3: to the persecution, the extermination of the group and finally

704
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 3: the denial that such a crime ever could So that

705
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: process it can take years, it can take decades, but

706
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: it's something that can turn even the most regular Polson

707
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: into virulent proponent of Rhanna side if they are not

708
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 3: fastidious in their opposition to any such language, especially in

709
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: the early stages, because they get fed the steady stream

710
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: propaganda of all the actions are justified, their loyalty to

711
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 3: their inn group becomes tested by their willingness to engage

712
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: in those harmful actions. The still with that group will

713
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 3: do whatever their tool is good, even if it leads

714
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: to other people being hood and it just creates an evil,

715
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 3: but it's an ordinary evil. It's an evil that is

716
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 3: convinced that it's a virtue. It is wrapped up in

717
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 3: ideology and social conformity because you know, humans are social

718
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 3: creatures and it drives us to cooperate. But that sociality

719
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: can be narrowed down to test our in group. And

720
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 3: that's where Breakman actually gets into an interesting point about empathy,

721
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: right because we tend to see empathy as a positive thing,

722
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 3: and it can be, but as Bregman notes, drawn from

723
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 3: psychologists Paul Bloom's work, empathy can also make us partial, irrational,

724
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 3: and even cruel, because it can narrow our focus to

725
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 3: those people who are like us and ignore others. That's

726
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 3: why soldiers can fight and kill other people because they

727
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 3: feel empathy for their in group, their homeland citizens, or

728
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: their comrades and arms. Their loyalty and affection for the

729
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 3: people they care about supersedes the lives of the people

730
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: that they don't care about. Now, of course, I want

731
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 3: to look at systems, so we're talking about this because

732
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 3: I don't think that this hijacking of empathy is inevitable.

733
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: You know, nationalism, propaganda, these things play a role in

734
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 3: how people end up being separated in this way, and

735
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 3: it's in groups and our groups. But you know, there

736
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 3: is also indications that in group and our group separation

737
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 3: can occur even in the absence of a stake, So

738
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: it is something we have to be continuously vigilant of.

739
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: Another aspect of as a systemic analysis or approach is

740
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: looking at how our position within society also shapes how

741
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: we operate, how we treat people, how we think, and

742
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 3: how we act. Bragmant cites neuroscience research that demonstrates how

743
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 3: authority literally changes how we think. Powerful people become less empathetic,

744
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 3: and I'm more to see others as tools rather than

745
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 3: independent people. You know this is not new information, per see.

746
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 3: You know the enviolence that powerful people are in both

747
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 3: shapes them and are shaped by them, they say, and

748
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: has long gone that power corrupts and absolute power croups

749
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: absolutely and spaces like Silicon Valley, like Wall streets, like Washington, DC,

750
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: like corporate boardrooms and all the other upper echelons of government.

751
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 3: They divorce rulers and authorities from ordinary people, their insular

752
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: spaces that keep them from being challenged or being grounded

753
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 3: by the impact of their actions and others, so powerful

754
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: people don't have to care. And I think such hierarchies

755
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 3: are attractive to people who already are inclined to do bad,

756
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 3: even if they believe that they're doing good. The authoritarians,

757
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: the supremacists, the abusers, They are attracted to those positions.

758
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 3: But even good intention people could lose themselves in authority too,

759
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 3: because authorities as a whole existed in this bubble that

760
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 3: rewards their worst instincts. Sheep in the system around their

761
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: worst instincts, around distrust, selfishness, exploitation, and so on, to

762
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: reward themselves and their patterns of behavior, and thus, through

763
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: the social more seaway effect, people end up filling that

764
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: expectation created by the system.

765
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 4: I guess my only comment here is that these systems

766
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: are not just exclusive to like state power or like

767
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 4: corporate authority. These same mechanisms reproduce themselves in all sorts

768
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 4: of social arrangements, including like radical politics, and frankly especially

769
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 4: radical politics. You can see it's a lot with groups,

770
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 4: whether they're communists, whether they're anarchists, whether they're I don't know.

771
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: Social democrats probably have this problem, but no specifically like

772
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 4: in anarchist scenes, you see this happen constantly. It is

773
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 4: almost funny how how much these things just get natively recreated,

774
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 4: and like in group out group in amics are always

775
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 4: are always a big issue. I mean, like you can

776
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 4: also point to the book Cultish, which explains how American

777
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 4: culture is pretty defined by like cult like tendencies, not

778
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 4: saying that every single group is a cult, but cult

779
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,479
Speaker 4: dynamics play into a large part of everyday American life,

780
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 4: and that's both good and bad. Sometimes being in a

781
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 4: cult is fun until it's not very fun. So these

782
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 4: dynamics themselves are not necessarily you know, bad, but there's

783
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 4: something to be like mindful of.

784
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So in being mindful of it, you know,

785
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 3: that's an aspect of it. You know, we have to

786
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: find solutions to this academic of badness, of behaviors being

787
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: reinforced by these systems that are cause harm to people

788
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: and harm to the world. And so what I always

789
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 3: advocate for and we's big and small. I wouldn't call

790
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 3: it the one solution to everything, but it's it does

791
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: encompass a lot, but it's just understanding and taking on

792
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 3: a dynamic social revolutionary approach to change, you know, from

793
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 3: the effort to do to confront the existence system to

794
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: stand up against it, but it's also the things that

795
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 3: you do to put forward an alternative, to put forward

796
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 3: and to practice alternatives. So one of the things that

797
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: we can do is to create what you know, perpetuate

798
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 3: a positive and trusting take on human decen see, you know,

799
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 3: to create that social placeboy effect that can shape how

800
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: people treat each other for the better, but that can

801
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: be boiled down to just be nicer to each other.

802
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 3: So there's more we've done than that. Of course, on

803
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 3: the systems front, we also to change how we educate

804
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: each other in radical spaces and also in terms of

805
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 3: how we raise children. We have to organize, you know,

806
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 3: alternative economic systems and alternative social arrangements that get us

807
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 3: in the habit of trust, of trust and people's freedom,

808
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 3: of practicing freedom, and also of emphasizing greater intrinsic motivation

809
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 3: in people as well. You know, a lot of our

810
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 3: society is built around control and mechanisms of control through

811
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 3: extrinsic forms of motivation, you know, like punishments and prisons

812
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 3: and grades and bonuses and wages, all the different things

813
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 3: that are meant to keep us going here now. But

814
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 3: I think a system that more leans into intrinsic motivation

815
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 3: is something that we should be working toward. You know,

816
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: that people do things so they're in SAE for reasons

817
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 3: that we are driven by. That I think is far

818
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 3: more sustainable long term and more fulfilling long term than

819
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 3: continuing to be stuck with the punishments and rewards that

820
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 3: come from outside. Yes, we have to develop a revolutionary

821
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: consciousness that is also very much grounded in you know,

822
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: people's intrinsic motivation to have their needs mets, to pursue

823
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: their interests to care for others. And that is why

824
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 3: I think we'll sy tea in for as long term,

825
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 3: because you can create all these bonuses and incentives externally,

826
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 3: but I don't think it's something that will last. There are,

827
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: you know, experiments in earth with a greater emphasis on

828
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 3: intrinsic motivation, not even necessarily radical experiments by see. But

829
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 3: Bregman actually looks at examples of schools that don't have

830
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 3: grades or fixed curriculums, and that companies that don't have managers,

831
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 3: that are run entirely by employees. I mean, anarchists have

832
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 3: been known about these, but he emphasizes that the people

833
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 3: in these environments thrive because they've been trusted to direct themselves.

834
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 3: They can bring off the best in themselves because they've

835
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 3: been given the room to do so, you know. And

836
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: spaces like free schools and maker spaces and cooperatives they

837
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 3: give us the room to develop our cooperation and creativity.

838
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 3: And of course the system is are going to stand

839
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 3: by as these transformations take place. It might tolerate or

840
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 3: even celebrate some like the examples that Bregmann had looked at,

841
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 3: but those are always going to be treated as exceptions.

842
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 3: And the second, he tried to make them the norm.

843
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 3: I think you're going to face some real challenges because

844
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 3: ordinary people one of these things, but the rulers don't.

845
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 3: It's like the example that I had brought up earlier.

846
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 3: You know, the famous nineteen fourteen Christmas Truce during World

847
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 3: War One, where British and Jeman soldiers put down their guns,

848
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 3: they sang songs, they played football, but eventually the high

849
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 3: command crack down these truces. The fratnization of people who

850
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 3: are different from each other was a threat to the

851
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 3: war machine because these systems are invested in maintaining hostility

852
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 3: and division, and so we have to consciously and openly

853
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: stand up against hostility and division to build systems that

854
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 3: bring out the best in people. I don't think that

855
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 3: a hopeful view of human nature should be seen as utopian.

856
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 3: As I said earlier, is realistic. Cynicism is not realism.

857
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 3: They're not the same thing. Having hope is not being

858
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 3: that you are completely deluded of the dark side or

859
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 3: dark aspects of humanity and humanity's possibilities. But it means

860
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 3: that you don't limit yourself to that outcome, that you

861
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 3: challenge that narrative, and that you seek to do better

862
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 3: and to create something better, and that's really what I

863
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 3: care about, and that's all I have to share, All

864
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: power to all the people this.

865
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 5: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast.

866
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 8: It's me James today and I'm joined by georgeen Jedmai from.

867
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 5: Hengl, this human rights organization.

868
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 8: Also a journalist who's worked for the Curdish Peace Institute

869
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,479
Speaker 8: who we've had on the show before, who I've also

870
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 8: worked with, and the founder of the Kurtis Dan People's

871
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 8: page on Instagram.

872
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 5: Welcome to the show. Thanks, thanks for joining us.

873
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 7: Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm so glad

874
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 7: to be here today with you.

875
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 8: Yeah, of course, And what we're going to talk about

876
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 8: today is Rogia lat or Eastern Kurdistan, right, and how

877
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 8: this figures into I guess what's happening currently in Iran,

878
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 8: what has been happening in Iran, And like, I think

879
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 8: it's really important to give a little more explanation and

880
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 8: background on particularly like the different ethnic groups in Iran

881
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 8: than people generally get when they consume legacy media here.

882
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, so if I want to talk about this, like

883
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 7: we need to talk about the history or at least

884
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 7: one hundred and twenty one hundred and fifty years, so

885
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 7: a lot. But today's structure of what we know as

886
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 7: Iran is made up of several different ethnic groups from Persians, Turks,

887
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 7: I mean, Azerbaijani Turks, Turkummands Herds, Baluchi's, Ahwazi, Arabs, and

888
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 7: so many others. But I would say the dominant population,

889
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 7: the dominant ethnic group, and the dominant culture and language

890
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 7: is definitely Persians. Yeah, And if I want to be

891
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 7: more clear, this dominant ethnic group has been exploding and

892
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 7: colonizing and destroying all the lands and the communities and

893
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 7: societies from non Persian regions including Kurdistan, Baluchistan, Azerbaijan, Ahwas

894
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 7: and many other regions and this geographical region called Iran.

895
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 7: And this mainly started during the former monarchy Pahlavis, and

896
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 7: it was intensified after the nineteen seventy nine Islamic Revolution

897
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 7: led by ayato O la Romeni, and as usual, the

898
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 7: Kurdish people were the first to stand against this newly

899
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 7: established regime. In nineteen seventy nine, a few months after

900
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 7: the so called revolution, the Kurds were demanding their rights,

901
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,879
Speaker 7: specifically the right to self determination and also federalism, which

902
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 7: was responded by a heavy hit by heavy attacks and

903
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 7: under the jihad order of Ayatolla Romeni, which led to

904
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 7: the massacre of tens of thousands of civilians and destructions

905
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 7: of several hundred villages and massive executions of Kurdish people

906
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 7: across the what we know as Eastern Kurdistan or Rochalad.

907
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 7: And following that the oppression continued, and also it was

908
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 7: done against other ethnic groups, specifically Baluchi's and also the

909
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 7: Awazi Arabs and also the Azerbaijani Turks, but in Kurdistan

910
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 7: and Baluchistan it has always been more intense and more brutal.

911
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 7: And then in late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties

912
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 7: they killed two of the Kurdish leaders, doctor Abdur Rahman

913
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 7: Kazenlou and doctor shut Off Candy in Europe during some

914
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 7: negotiations and thus ended up in Kurt being in a

915
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 7: worse situation. And then until around early two thousands, I

916
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 7: think around two thousand and four or three, the PKK

917
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 7: built or established its wing in Roschalat known as the

918
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 7: Free Kurdistan Party or Pajakh sorry Free Kurdistan Live Party

919
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 7: in Roschalat, and then but unfortunately this party was not

920
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 7: not really as strong as the KDPI or Comala that

921
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 7: were already in the fight with the Iranian states. Since

922
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 7: nineteen forty six and so on, this oppression has been

923
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 7: just intensifying by mass execution of Kurdish people, the mass

924
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:23,839
Speaker 7: execution of the political prisoners and activists, and imprisonment of

925
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 7: the different people in the Kurdish society, from language teachers

926
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 7: to environmental activists to children, women, anyone, and this whole

927
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 7: impression that I've been mentioning about, like that that's happening

928
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 7: in East Kurdistan. It has also resulted in a humanitarian

929
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 7: phenomenon called kulbarry. Kulbart's are a group of people that

930
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 7: are extremely underprivileged. They have no access to anything, so

931
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 7: they are somehow forced to go into some sort of

932
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,320
Speaker 7: war that they have to carry goods between the borders

933
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 7: of East Kurdistan and South Kurdistan or North Kurdistan specifically

934
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 7: between Iraq, Iran and Turkey. And every year we have

935
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 7: numbers in our organizations you can check. We have a

936
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 7: specific statistics section for these coal wars. Every year, hundreds

937
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 7: of them get killed, just for example, in since the

938
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 7: beginning of twenty twenty five, twenty two of them have

939
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 7: been killed and injured. And among these people there are children, women,

940
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 7: old people. So this is also another form of oppression

941
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 7: that this regime has been using. Any start people, because

942
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 7: this is actually one of the biggest forms of oppression,

943
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 7: if I want to talk about it. There are over

944
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 7: one hundred and fifty thousand cod bars in East Kurdistan

945
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 7: that are somehow forced into this type of work because

946
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 7: they have no other means of income and the government,

947
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 7: the reigning government actually like limitits all the if I

948
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 7: want to call it a colonny developments in East Kurdistan.

949
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 7: This has been going on for decades. And then we

950
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 7: come to twenty nineteen again there was another so I

951
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 7: want to call it uprising or master tests across Iran

952
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 7: when the regime killed over one five hundred people. I

953
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 7: mean before that, there were also tests almost every year,

954
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 7: but that was like one of the biggest one. It

955
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 7: was in November twenty nineteen and they caught down the

956
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 7: internet for twelve days. I remember I was at the

957
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,479
Speaker 7: university at that time. And then they killed one thy

958
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 7: five hundred people, specifically so many people in Kurdistan. They

959
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 7: even throw that kills people into like lakes and rivers,

960
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 7: and then after like months and days people found the

961
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 7: bodies like in the nature jeez. And then we come

962
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 7: to twenty twenty two and in September when they the

963
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 7: morality police killed Gina Amini, the Kurdish woman who was

964
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 7: apparently not ware caring a proper hijab or the Islamic

965
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 7: oh or whatever you want to call it yea. She

966
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 7: was killed by the Iranian morality police in Tehran, which

967
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 7: led to the as we know it. I don't know

968
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 7: if we can call it a revolution or uprising or

969
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 7: just mass tests called Jinjiana Zadi or women life freedom movement.

970
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 7: And this also again because it was inspired by Kurtz

971
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 7: the first victim was occurred again. Obviously, it started in

972
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 7: Kurdistan and it spread so fast. Just in a few days,

973
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 7: the entire Kurdish cities were testing, and then it was

974
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 7: followed by other Iranian cities like Tehran. She was but

975
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 7: it was not as intense as in Kurdistan. I think

976
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 7: it was three days after her death. The Kurdish parties

977
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 7: Kadpi and Komala and some others that are not very

978
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 7: well known like pak and also Pajakh or the Free

979
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 7: Life Kurdistan Party. They announced a general strike across Kurdistan

980
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 7: and they called on people to close down everything and

981
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 7: go on a full lockdown to protest the killing of

982
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 7: Gina Amini, which was responded by I think over one

983
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 7: hundred missiles or something from the IRGC and the Iranian

984
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 7: regime and it killed I think eighteen if I'm not wrong,

985
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 7: but it killed several people in the camps belonging to

986
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 7: these parties in today's Iraqi Kurdistan or as we call

987
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 7: it South Kurdistan. There were also like family members of

988
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 7: the Kurdish politicians and Kurdish Pishmarga that were in those

989
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 7: refugee camps that are also supported by the UN. They

990
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 7: were killed there, and then the protests just got intensified,

991
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 7: and I was also there. We were reporting every day

992
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 7: about all the things that were happening. Also, the Baluch

993
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 7: people joined the protests, and at the same time of

994
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 7: those days, a fifteen years old Baluchi girl was raped

995
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 7: and killed by an IRGC commander or member in Baluchistan,

996
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 7: and people also protested that. And there was a Friday

997
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 7: which is known as the Bloody Friday of Zahidan people

998
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 7: in Baluchistan. They went to a big mosque in the

999
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 7: city of Zahidan and they were doing their Friday prayers

1000
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 7: as Mauslims, and then they started protesting and this was

1001
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 7: responded by the Iranian regime forces and over one hundred

1002
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 7: people were massacred on that day, which also led to

1003
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 7: mass execution of more political and just random prisoners in Baluchistan.

1004
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 7: And then the protests just went on and there was

1005
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 7: a really heavy repression so far, I think over maybe

1006
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 7: between five hundred to six hundred people were killed. These

1007
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 7: are like the official ones, and also several other of

1008
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 7: these protesters, specifically from Kurtistan, were executed. Some of them

1009
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 7: were executed in public to spread more fear among people,

1010
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 7: but people were not given up. And then it continued

1011
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 7: until twenty twenty three until I think it was around

1012
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 7: maybe in March, I'm not really remembering the exact date,

1013
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 7: but it was also in twenty twenty three that they

1014
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 7: started attacking schools, like girls' schools, with some sort of

1015
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 7: gases that nobody actually knows that what type of chemical

1016
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 7: gases they were using, and unfortunately we have them, like

1017
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 7: we've reported on. Then some school children, like some kids

1018
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 7: they were killed by these gases, and they were specifically

1019
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 7: targeting girls' schools because they are like separate. They don't

1020
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 7: they're not together in the union system integrate. Yeah, and

1021
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 7: then this went on and people were still protesting, but

1022
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 7: on unfortunately it somehow stopped. And if I want to

1023
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 7: analyze that and related to like to talk about the reasons.

1024
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 7: One of the main reasons I think also many other

1025
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 7: political activists and analysts also agree on that that the

1026
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 7: opposition what as we know as the Iranian opposition, was

1027
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 7: not truly united. Yeah. There was a huge effort specifically

1028
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 7: from the Kurdish parties like Comala and Abdullah Motadi. They

1029
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 7: tried to create some sort of collaboration with the so

1030
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 7: called Iranian oppositions, specifically the monarchists like the Pahlavis and

1031
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 7: some other groups. But unfortunately these groups, I mean it

1032
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 7: was in the middle of an uprising, like a movement

1033
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 7: that hasn't been happening since maybe forty years. Instead of

1034
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 7: working together for a common goal like the Iranian opposition

1035
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 7: group specifically the Parlavis and also the other ones like

1036
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 7: if I want to say, like the mass and like

1037
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 7: all the people that work with her, instead of working

1038
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 7: towards a common goal. They started discriminating against minorities. They

1039
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 7: started ignoring and denying and also censoring the minorities, the

1040
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 7: same minorities that were the most active against the regime,

1041
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 7: that had the biggest number of sacrifices in the protests

1042
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 7: and also in prisons. They just started spreading their own

1043
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 7: typical nationalism. I mean, I would even call them ultra

1044
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 7: nationalistic sentiments. And for example, if I want to give

1045
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 7: like one of the biggest things that we always talk about,

1046
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 7: these people who are apparently against the regime, they have

1047
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 7: some red lines, and their main red line has always

1048
01:04:54,960 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 7: been the so called Iranian territorial integrity. So like the

1049
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 7: these type of sentiments and discussions, it's somehow created like

1050
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 7: a lot of mistrust between the Kurdish groups, the Baluchi groups.

1051
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 7: Also like with Hawazi Arabs and Azerbaijani Turks and all

1052
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 7: these groups, they couldn't trust each other because the dominant group,

1053
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 7: the Persians or the Iranians or those who identify as Iranians,

1054
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 7: they ignored us, they ignored our suffering, they ignored our identity.

1055
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 7: They were just repeating what the regime has been saying

1056
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 7: since over forty years but in a different form. So

1057
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 7: this somehow created a lot of mistrust and also the

1058
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 7: people inside, like I was there when that was happening,

1059
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 7: and I was working NonStop every day of recording, writing, texting,

1060
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 7: being on interviews. The people actually lost their hope because

1061
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 7: there was no united position, there was no united structure

1062
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 7: to say that, yeah, we're advocating for you. I mean,

1063
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 7: in the first few months it was really great. For example,

1064
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 7: here in Germany they had a very big demonstration and

1065
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 7: over eighty thousand people from all across Europe. They traveled

1066
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 7: to Berlin for that demonstration. It was great, and all

1067
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 7: the groups from Iranians, Turks, Arabs, Balucci is like everybody

1068
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 7: was there. But unfortunately following that, the people like specifically

1069
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 7: who is of Palavi, the so called crown Prince of Iran,

1070
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 7: who is another like his story is like very also

1071
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 7: like crazy, yeah, he and his group and his circle,

1072
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 7: and also people like Massi al Najatte, And I would

1073
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 7: say all the celebrities because they are not truly they

1074
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 7: are not politicians. They have no political study they have

1075
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 7: they haven't done any specific political work. They are just

1076
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 7: celebrities like Nazai Bulnadi. She played in some movies. Yet

1077
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 7: she really great actress, but not a good politician, like

1078
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 7: these things that celebrities who truly don't understand or they

1079
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 7: don't want to understand what people inside Kurtistan, Iran and

1080
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 7: Baluchis don't want. They pretended to be our voices and

1081
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 7: they never listened to us. And then this just made

1082
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 7: a lot of distraws and a lot of also hate

1083
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:27,439
Speaker 7: between the people. Yeah, so that's why I can say

1084
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 7: that it just failed after that, and unfortunately many many

1085
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 7: of the people who were arrested during that time, they

1086
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 7: are still in jail, and just a few days ago

1087
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 7: five of them were sentenced to death and we made

1088
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 7: a report about them. So like every day did they

1089
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 7: get sentenced to death? And I personally know many of

1090
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 7: these people who were injured, and they are now here

1091
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 7: in Germany. They were brought here but by some humanitaring

1092
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 7: with us. Some of them are my friends. So like,

1093
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 7: it just failed. At the same time, I also have

1094
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 7: to mention that one of the reasons that it also

1095
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:20,719
Speaker 7: failed it was the regime's extensive propression. They militarized the

1096
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:26,440
Speaker 7: entire cities, specifically in Kurdistan and Baluchistan for example. In Kurdistan,

1097
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:30,440
Speaker 7: they already have over two thousand military bases and checkpoints

1098
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 7: all over the Kurdistan region, and during that time, they

1099
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 7: had like tanks and military vehicles and the entrances, like

1100
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 7: in the gates of every city and also town they

1101
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 7: were checking out people like I personally get during these

1102
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 7: two years, I really didn't go out much, maybe once

1103
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 7: a week or once in attendees, just to I don't know,

1104
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 7: to go and eat something out, you know, like I

1105
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 7: was always home, Yeah, because I couldn't go out and

1106
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 7: because my work was important. And then they were just

1107
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 7: controlling people. They were arresting people, and even like from

1108
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 7: the stories that I have worked on before, these injured people.

1109
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 7: They also they were hiding in small villages and even

1110
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,759
Speaker 7: in the mountains, but the regime forces were everywhere looking

1111
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 7: for these people and these activists. So it was like

1112
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 7: a holy military lockdown in the region. And there are

1113
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 7: many crazy stories. I don't know if you have time

1114
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:32,600
Speaker 7: enough time to talk about, like some different and specific

1115
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 7: things that happened, and it was really scary at that time.

1116
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:37,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, I would like you to share that with us,

1117
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 8: because I think one thing people don't understand is that

1118
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 8: the Iranian regime has a colossal capacity.

1119
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 5: For violence against the certain citizens.

1120
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:49,719
Speaker 8: I think if we talk about like some specific instances

1121
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 8: and then maybe we can talk about recently that has

1122
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 8: been a bombing campaign against some nuclear facilities and some

1123
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 8: IIGC commanders, and like I think if you start with

1124
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 8: your anecdote about what happened during this last uprising, that

1125
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 8: will help people understand why, like the consequence of this

1126
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 8: bombing campaign are not good for people who want to

1127
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 8: have freedom in Iran, right, people inside the country at least. So, yeah,

1128
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,560
Speaker 8: tell us some things about that capacity for repression.

1129
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, like the bombing happened, and we saw, we

1130
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 7: all saw how crazy and how insane, like it was

1131
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,839
Speaker 7: like movies. I couldn't believe my eyes when it happened.

1132
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 7: It was really crazy. And yeah, that was like the

1133
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:36,479
Speaker 7: war between two brutal states, Israel and Iran, who both

1134
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 7: have no respect for dignity of humans. Nothing, absolutely. Yeah,

1135
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 7: the first thing that happened it was that, Yeah, they

1136
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 7: targeted I think so far as far as I remember

1137
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 7: from our statistics, over three hundred and fifty or around

1138
01:10:55,200 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 7: that were the IRGC commanders or the officials from the

1139
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 7: nuclear programs than like really the judges who have sentenced

1140
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 7: thousands of people to death, Like, the targeted people were

1141
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 7: mainly these type of people, and also there were also

1142
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 7: some civilians I think maybe around eighty or nineties civilians

1143
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 7: whom some of them were actually like family members of

1144
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 7: these IERGC members, and also some children. And also there

1145
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 7: was a lot of destruction, specifically in Tehran, many buildings,

1146
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:31,759
Speaker 7: including the Evan prison.

1147
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,520
Speaker 5: Yeah it'shere, they hit the prison, the.

1148
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 7: Center of the Iranian broadcast and all these places were

1149
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 7: targeted and many officials were killed, also civilians. But the

1150
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 7: Iranian regime's response to that was not fully against Israel,

1151
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 7: who was bombing Iranian ier GC bases. In the first days,

1152
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 7: they started attacking civilians. They started arresting every I don't know,

1153
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,599
Speaker 7: some random people and so far I think last time

1154
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 7: we checked hundreds of people across specifically in Kurdistan they

1155
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 7: were arrested, and some others were already like in these days,

1156
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 7: they got executed because they were accused of spinach for

1157
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 7: Israel or working for Israel. Just a few weeks ago,

1158
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 7: I think five or four or maybe three, I don't

1159
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 7: recall the numbers right now. But some Kurdish political prisoners

1160
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:38,800
Speaker 7: who were accused of working for Israel were executed in

1161
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 7: my hometown Formia in ist Kordistan, and then so many

1162
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 7: others were also arrested, and then I think some others

1163
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 7: were also tortured. At least I remember one case which

1164
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 7: we worked on it. There was one case that was

1165
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 7: tortured to death because he was accused of working for

1166
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 7: Israel and things like that. This was like one of

1167
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 7: the responses that the Iranian regime started doing. And one

1168
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:10,440
Speaker 7: of the things that this regime did in the first days,

1169
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 7: it was that they took lots of military vehicles and

1170
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:19,640
Speaker 7: like I don't know, equipments inside schools. For example, in

1171
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 7: the city of Saradash it's a really amazing beautiful Kurdish

1172
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 7: city on top of some mountains. It's beautiful. There's a

1173
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 7: high school in the city center, exactly in the city center,

1174
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 7: and they took lots of military equipment and stuff inside

1175
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 7: the school and they threatened the school manager, if you

1176
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 7: don't give us the key right now, we will arrest you.

1177
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 7: We will do this and that. And they also did

1178
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 7: that in the city of Kermanshah. They also did that

1179
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 7: in the I remember because I worked under report. It

1180
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 7: was in the neighbor in the neighborhoodhood called the Zilabad

1181
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,040
Speaker 7: and they took some military equipments next to a hospital

1182
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 7: which was also born and the hospital was damaged and

1183
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 7: some people were injured. That was one of the things

1184
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 7: that the regime did. And at the same time, I

1185
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 7: don't know if you know about this, but in Iran

1186
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 7: the military service is compulsory, like Israel, like many like Switzerland,

1187
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 7: like many countries, but in Iran it's torture. It's some

1188
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:24,799
Speaker 7: sort of repression against young men. So across Kurtistan, for example,

1189
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 7: in a military base in my hometown in Urma, it's

1190
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 7: called Almahdi. It's a very big military base. I know

1191
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 7: that some soldiers who are like civilians, but they are

1192
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:40,839
Speaker 7: forced into it. They're like teenagers, I don't know, nineteen

1193
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 7: twenty or twenty one, like you were.

1194
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 5: Young guys, yeah, very young that really don't want.

1195
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 7: To be there, but they are forced to. They were

1196
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 7: saying that their commanders threatened, if you leave the military base,

1197
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 7: we will arrest you, we will torture you, and we

1198
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 7: will execute you for betraying for like I don't know,

1199
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 7: for training your country or things like that, or working

1200
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 7: for Israel. This was like one of one of the

1201
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 7: concerns that many families had before on those days, because

1202
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 7: I talked with some people, like our neighbor's son was

1203
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 7: also in a military base. He's like nineteen. Yeah, they

1204
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 7: were putting lots of pressure on civilians while ignoring that

1205
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 7: what Israel is doing every day. They were bombing all

1206
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 7: the military bases, I don't know places, and like they

1207
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 7: were even bombing places that nobody even knew that they existed.

1208
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 7: But their focus was, like the regime's focus was on

1209
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 7: civilians who were just scared, who were just trying to

1210
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,240
Speaker 7: protect their families. Yeah, and this was just like what

1211
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 7: they started doing. And yeah, I mean it's it's still

1212
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 7: going It still is going on, and they're arresting people

1213
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 7: all the time, and as usual, the majority of the

1214
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,719
Speaker 7: focus and repression is again happening in Curtis on against

1215
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 7: Kurdish people. Yeah.

1216
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,120
Speaker 8: I think it's very important people understand like that Iran

1217
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 8: is not like an ethno state, well it is an

1218
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 8: ethno state, that that that is not ethnically monolithic like

1219
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 8: the territory of Iran and the Persian ethno state do

1220
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 8: not necessarily like line up. I think people will also

1221
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:27,080
Speaker 8: be very confused about like when we hear quote unquote

1222
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 8: Iranian opposition in this country, right, right, it's often like

1223
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 8: I think there's this knee jack. Oh that's good, right,

1224
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 8: these are people who are opposed to this regime which

1225
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 8: is brutally cracking down on people. But often then, as

1226
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 8: you say, it's associated with like monarchists for the most part.

1227
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:46,360
Speaker 8: And then we have these various like anything in Kurdistan, right,

1228
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 8: like it's an alphabet suit, but like there is like

1229
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 8: there are seventy five different like initial groups of initials.

1230
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 8: Can you explain who some of these actors are? Right?

1231
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 8: We have on we have the Iranian monarchists, we have

1232
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 8: the KDP, I have all these different groups pagiacht like

1233
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 8: you say, the KCK group. Can you explain some of

1234
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 8: these people are the people say they understand?

1235
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, if I want to talk about Kurtisan, I would

1236
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:15,479
Speaker 7: go to the first Mother and Kurdish Party called KDPI,

1237
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 7: which was founded in nineteen forty five and it was

1238
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:25,240
Speaker 7: the founder of the Kurdistan Republic. And also then there's

1239
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 7: the Koma Law Party, which is also like a socialist

1240
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 7: communist Leftist Party which also has several branches, but they're

1241
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 7: all basically the same. And also there are other parties

1242
01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 7: like pak yeah, yeah, the Freedom Party of Kurdistan, and

1243
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:45,680
Speaker 7: also we have Pajaq the Free Life Kurdistan Party or

1244
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,440
Speaker 7: I don't know if it's that, it's the same in English.

1245
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, Kaddistan Free Life Party.

1246
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 7: Yeah. These are the main political parties and actors in

1247
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 7: East Kurdistan. However, there are also like smaller parties like

1248
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 7: Abbot and also some parties that are affiliated like they

1249
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 7: are like very small groups that are affiliated with for example,

1250
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:13,799
Speaker 7: the Iranian Communist Party, which is not also really big.

1251
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:18,520
Speaker 7: But the main ones right now are Kdpi and Tomola,

1252
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 7: who both of them have like a long history of

1253
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 7: fighting against the regime and also against the monarchists the

1254
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 7: Pahlavi regime. They were i would say, really really active

1255
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 7: until like twenty twenty three. They played a very very

1256
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:42,480
Speaker 7: important role in the revolution in like in Kurdiston specifically

1257
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 7: because they were the ones who were announcing like strikes

1258
01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 7: and they were working together and like organizing things and

1259
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:57,680
Speaker 7: helping people out to resist. Obviously, there was no arm

1260
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 7: struggle at that time or conflicts because they said we're

1261
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 7: not going to fight because if we bring the fights

1262
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 7: and conflict inside Kurdistan, the regime will destroy the city

1263
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 7: with styles. This is exactly what they said at that time,

1264
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 7: because there was a demand from people that yeah, the

1265
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 7: Peshmarga forces should come in the cities and fight alongside

1266
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 7: with us, but they said no, if you do this,

1267
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 7: the regime will destroy the cities. These are the main

1268
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 7: forces in Kurdistan, and of course they have different ideologies.

1269
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,840
Speaker 7: Pajak is like the PKK's wing, or if I want

1270
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 7: to be more official, it's a member of the KCK

1271
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 7: or Kjaks we'll say. And KDPI is like as I said,

1272
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 7: the history goes back to nineteen forty five and Comala

1273
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 7: in the early seventies and also Pak I'm not sure

1274
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,920
Speaker 7: when it was founded, but it was also like it

1275
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 7: was founded one by one of the members of the

1276
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 7: KDPI who say as Dampana and they are more of

1277
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 7: a military I would say, well organized military group. That

1278
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 7: they also played a good role against the ISIS in

1279
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:19,640
Speaker 7: twenty seventeen and eighteen, specifically in Kerkuk in South Kurdistan

1280
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 7: or Iraqi Kurdistan and about the Iran in a position

1281
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:28,720
Speaker 7: if I want to say, yes, we have the monarchists,

1282
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 7: the Rizapah Leavi and his group. They have like a

1283
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 7: whole long list of parties. Basically they're all the same

1284
01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 7: but they have different names, and they are all right wing,

1285
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 7: and they all focused on the territorial integrity of Iran.

1286
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,720
Speaker 7: But they also pretend that they care also about democracy,

1287
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,799
Speaker 7: but that's that's a lie. And then we have people

1288
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 7: like Massi Haleine Jot who is more of she's an

1289
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 7: activist and she's she's internationally known for her activism against

1290
01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:08,560
Speaker 7: the compulsory hy job, but she doesn't have any specific

1291
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 7: party or organizations. She's just an activist and a journalist obviously.

1292
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 7: And also there are other several people that work with her,

1293
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 7: like Nazani Bunyadi who also works with like Pa Lavis.

1294
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 7: And also there is another one who also played a

1295
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 7: big role. His name is Hamid Ismailiun. He is one

1296
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 7: of the members of the families of the people who

1297
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:37,879
Speaker 7: were killed in that plane that was shot by missiles

1298
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:42,640
Speaker 7: biology see in twenty twenty in Tehran. And again there

1299
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 7: were many Kurds inside that Ukrainian plane as well. This

1300
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 7: person was Smailun. He is one of the members of

1301
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:54,040
Speaker 7: like he lost his entire family in that plane crash

1302
01:21:54,240 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 7: or attack. He organized many, many great and big demonstrations US, Canada, Australia,

1303
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:04,799
Speaker 7: I think even in the US and specifically in Germany.

1304
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:08,120
Speaker 7: The one in Berlin was the biggest. Also, he doesn't

1305
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 7: have a party, but he also somehow backed down after

1306
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:16,120
Speaker 7: like what Alavis did, for example, like or the monarchists

1307
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 7: did with the whole opposition groups. There are also some

1308
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 7: leftist groups and individuals, but unfortunately they're not truly leftists.

1309
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:28,400
Speaker 7: So I want to give you a name. There is

1310
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 7: a person called as Easy. He is also well known

1311
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 7: in the US. I don't know. He wrote some books

1312
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 7: and he works with really like international media. Just a

1313
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 7: few days ago he posted something that said we we

1314
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 7: the leftists of Iran. We we are in love with

1315
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:49,720
Speaker 7: our homeland and we care about our homeland and we

1316
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:54,320
Speaker 7: don't He just posted something that was that was really nationalistic,

1317
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:59,599
Speaker 7: like a typical Persian Iranian sentiment. That was that does

1318
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 7: that going on and it's got lots of criticism from

1319
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:06,640
Speaker 7: different groups. And then we have the the Awazi Arabs.

1320
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 7: They also have some parties, but they are not really

1321
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 7: strong or active or well organized, like the Kurdish ones,

1322
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 7: the Turks the other by Johnny Turks. They also have

1323
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 7: some groups, but they're also not very active or organized.

1324
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 7: And many of these groups they are heavily affiliated with

1325
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:31,080
Speaker 7: the azer Bay Johnny government or the Turkish regime and

1326
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:36,919
Speaker 7: specifically the MHP party in Turkey, like the ulternational Turkish party.

1327
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 5: Yeah right, yeah.

1328
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:43,679
Speaker 7: And then the Baluchis, I can say they are more

1329
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:49,519
Speaker 7: organized because they have this I don't want to call

1330
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 7: him a leader, but like the the highest, the highest

1331
01:23:54,560 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 7: level mollah in Baluchistan, Molavi Abdula. He is like the

1332
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 7: most popular mula in that region, and he was one

1333
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:10,880
Speaker 7: of the people that was organizing protests and he was

1334
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 7: giving lots of speeches like during the Friday prayers in Baluchistan,

1335
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 7: and a lot of people were. They still like they

1336
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:22,200
Speaker 7: follow him and they follow his words. But unfortunately he

1337
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:28,719
Speaker 7: is also like appointed as the Imam of the Friday prayers,

1338
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 7: if I want to be more specific, in Baluchistan by

1339
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 7: Kameny himself, the Iranian Supreme Realer. But it's like a

1340
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:39,839
Speaker 7: little bit hard to understand that where he stands exactly

1341
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 7: because on one side, he he's appointed by the regime.

1342
01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:45,800
Speaker 7: But on the other side, he's also like acting as

1343
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:50,800
Speaker 7: a political leader or advocate in Baluchistan. I think they

1344
01:24:50,840 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 7: also have some armed groups, but they are mainly Islamists,

1345
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,679
Speaker 7: and I would say, but they're also not very very

1346
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:05,720
Speaker 7: will organized. Yeah, they do attack the IRGC members and

1347
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:09,480
Speaker 7: these agents who are oppressing people on a daily basis

1348
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:12,760
Speaker 7: sometimes and sometimes they get killed. And also sometimes just

1349
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:16,080
Speaker 7: a few days ago, there was a fight between these

1350
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:18,680
Speaker 7: people and like civilians in the village and also the

1351
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:23,479
Speaker 7: IRGC courses and I think two women were killed and

1352
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:28,559
Speaker 7: more than ten or eleven were injured. Jeez, but this

1353
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 7: this fights and conflicts and they're always happening in Baluchistan.

1354
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, it can be hard, I think especially people aren't familiar, right,

1355
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,879
Speaker 8: like the Pak to distinguish from PJAK, like have definitely

1356
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:47,040
Speaker 8: been making a big effort on the internet, I will say,

1357
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:49,639
Speaker 8: like with their Peshmega right like in the last three

1358
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 8: weeks since the US entered the Israel's bombing campaign, like

1359
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:57,799
Speaker 8: to appear like this and they are very well organized

1360
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 8: Pesh Mega like I think they say they were cook.

1361
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 8: I think maybe they're in Kubani.

1362
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 5: As well, like maybe they Yeah, they joined in yeah, ye.

1363
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:10,439
Speaker 7: The Pajakh was specifically in Rajava and they were also

1364
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:14,920
Speaker 7: fighting against ISIS because like they are like as I said,

1365
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 7: they are, they are a member of KCK, and there

1366
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 7: are allies of PKK, so they're all are interconnected and

1367
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 7: they all work together.

1368
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:27,000
Speaker 5: I think the PAK also worth in Rushava, right.

1369
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 7: I am not sure, but I think members of PAK

1370
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:38,120
Speaker 7: joined like the fight in Rojava, like as individuals, because

1371
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 7: the fight in was also something that people from all

1372
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:42,639
Speaker 7: over Kurdistan went.

1373
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:46,720
Speaker 8: There, Yeah, from northern Kerdistan to yeah. Yeah, And these

1374
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:50,639
Speaker 8: are very organized groups, but like there isn't I guess

1375
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:52,760
Speaker 8: there is a kind of insurgency. But as you say,

1376
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:54,600
Speaker 8: like if these groups just took our bambs in the

1377
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:59,880
Speaker 8: cities and the IIGC would destroy everyone in those cities, right,

1378
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:02,760
Speaker 8: that's a I think people sometimes one day like why

1379
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 8: they don't just start fighting and then there is fighting

1380
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 8: to be clear, But like as you say, the regime

1381
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 8: punishes civilians, right.

1382
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean this is not the first time that

1383
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 7: the regime does this. Every time that Israel does something

1384
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:20,280
Speaker 7: to the regime, because this is not the first time

1385
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:24,680
Speaker 7: that Israel has killed someone in Iran. Like some IRGC

1386
01:27:24,840 --> 01:27:30,040
Speaker 7: member or nuclear agent, nuclear scientists or whatever. Every time

1387
01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:35,360
Speaker 7: this happened during the past few years, instead of responding

1388
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 7: to Israel as a state, they responded to the Kurdish people.

1389
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 7: I think it was just two years Again, in twenty

1390
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 7: twenty two, they literally bombed a civilian house in Erbin,

1391
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:52,679
Speaker 7: the capital of Iraqi, Curtisan, and they killed an entire family,

1392
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 7: like it was like maybe a six seven months old

1393
01:27:57,040 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 7: baby and her father. They always respond to Kurtz when

1394
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:06,800
Speaker 7: they get attacked or bombed or damaged or whatever by

1395
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:08,560
Speaker 7: Israel or America.

1396
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like a soft target attarget they feel they

1397
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 5: can safely attack, you know, versus like we know now

1398
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 5: that they around pre warned the United States it was

1399
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 5: going to attack its basis, you know, following this bombing raid,

1400
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 5: and it was more of a performative thing than a

1401
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 5: like a serious attempt to attack US basis.

1402
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:31,960
Speaker 8: And even like this week I saw in Slea money

1403
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:34,120
Speaker 8: like they round is sending shahedrones.

1404
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:39,120
Speaker 7: Yeah. Actually during the past maybe ten days, this is

1405
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 7: like last night there was an attacking slay money. But

1406
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 7: this is like I think the fourth or third time

1407
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,559
Speaker 7: that there have there have been like several drone attacks

1408
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 7: on different places. So, yeah, this is something that the

1409
01:28:53,600 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 7: Rhalem has been doing one of the other funny things.

1410
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 7: I mean, this is not funny exactly, but it's weird.

1411
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 7: I just yesterday and actually two days ago. I'm not

1412
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 7: really good with dates and numbers, that's okay. Just two

1413
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 7: days ago they conducted like a cyber attack on this

1414
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:25,440
Speaker 7: TV channel, Iran International, which is also advocating for monarchists,

1415
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:30,320
Speaker 7: and they expose like some newt photos and like private

1416
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 7: photos and videos of some of the staff that work there,

1417
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,679
Speaker 7: and they are threatening that we will publish more if

1418
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:40,799
Speaker 7: you don't stop or whatever. This is also like another

1419
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:44,760
Speaker 7: strategies that the regime uses when they lose something, when

1420
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 7: they get attacked. They also like target activists, journalists, or

1421
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 7: for example they threatened their families or they threaten them

1422
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:58,160
Speaker 7: here inside Europe or in America or Canada or wherever

1423
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:01,640
Speaker 7: they are. Yeah, this is like as we call it,

1424
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 7: it's the transnational repression of the regime and it's been

1425
01:30:05,479 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 7: going on forever. And again if you look at the numbers,

1426
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:12,879
Speaker 7: most of the attacks have been on Kurdish activists. For example,

1427
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:16,519
Speaker 7: during the past thirty years, over I think around six

1428
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:21,759
Speaker 7: hundred non political activists have been killed by the regime

1429
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 7: outside of Iran, and nearly four hundred and fifty or

1430
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:28,960
Speaker 7: something of them were Kurdish. Yeah, this is also another

1431
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 7: thing that the regime has been doing, and in these

1432
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 7: days they have intensified.

1433
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1434
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1435
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 8: They have a long history of transnational repression and like

1436
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:41,479
Speaker 8: participating in the repression of other.

1437
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:42,040
Speaker 5: Revolutions, right.

1438
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:44,839
Speaker 8: Like, of course they were massive backers of the Asad regime interior.

1439
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 8: You know, all around the region. They will find the

1440
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:52,360
Speaker 8: wrong side to line up on it and do that.

1441
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 7: Again.

1442
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:55,680
Speaker 5: Of course, people will also be familiar they were supporting Kusbala,

1443
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:56,719
Speaker 5: for instance in Lebanon.

1444
01:30:57,479 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 8: One thing I've heard is that like the regime has

1445
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:03,840
Speaker 8: been really cracking down on Afghan people, like mass devotations

1446
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 8: of Afghan people who have come to Iran, right and

1447
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 8: especially in the wake of this bombing campaign. Can we

1448
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 8: talk about that briefly.

1449
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:12,919
Speaker 7: Yes, of course. I think that's one of the most

1450
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:17,640
Speaker 7: horrible things that happened after the war. So far. We

1451
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:21,599
Speaker 7: know that just in June they deported over thirty thousand

1452
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 7: Afghans and it's still going on, Like they mass support

1453
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:30,600
Speaker 7: tens of thousands of Afghan refugees every day, and just

1454
01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:34,040
Speaker 7: something that was really horrible to me when I read it.

1455
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:39,599
Speaker 7: There were six thousand kids that were unregistered and they

1456
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 7: were separated from their parents and they were sent back

1457
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 7: to Afghanistan alone.

1458
01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 5: Jesus.

1459
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:50,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, and they are haunting down Afghan migrants in different

1460
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:53,680
Speaker 7: cities across around, especially in Tehran because most of them

1461
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:57,559
Speaker 7: are there. Yeah. And the thing is that the Afghan

1462
01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:00,639
Speaker 7: I think there are all worth three million gone migrants

1463
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:04,320
Speaker 7: in Iran or maybe more. Nobody knows the exact numbers

1464
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:09,440
Speaker 7: because the Iranian government never ever publishes the true statistics,

1465
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 7: but there are millions of them in Iran and they

1466
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 7: are not actually allowed to They were not allowed actually

1467
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 7: like they're getting kicked out right now, but they were

1468
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:22,519
Speaker 7: not allowed to work in Kurdish cities. They were only

1469
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:27,559
Speaker 7: allowed to work in Persian speaking cities like Tehran, mashat Hiros,

1470
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 7: Isfahan and these big industrial cities. So like right now,

1471
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:36,799
Speaker 7: if you look at the internet, they are being hunted

1472
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 7: down by Iranian agents everywhere and they're being forced to

1473
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 7: go back to Afghanistan. And one of the things that

1474
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:48,360
Speaker 7: I want to mention that's been going on from a

1475
01:32:48,439 --> 01:32:52,920
Speaker 7: humanitarian perspective that really really makes me sad, and also

1476
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 7: it reflects a very ugly reality about the Persian or

1477
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:02,600
Speaker 7: the Iranian society and the amount of racism and fascism

1478
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 7: that exists among them, not just by the regime, by

1479
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 7: the people as well. There have been hundreds of videos

1480
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 7: and footage online. You can also check just search and

1481
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:18,599
Speaker 7: you will see that random citizens, young people, they are

1482
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:22,479
Speaker 7: attacking Afghan people in the city and I don't know,

1483
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:27,520
Speaker 7: in subways, in the parks, in cheese, in public places.

1484
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 7: Just yesterday I saw a very heartbreaking video because like

1485
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,920
Speaker 7: Afgone people, they also have a different look. You can

1486
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:39,880
Speaker 7: easily say that they're not Iranians. An Afghan teenager was

1487
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:44,799
Speaker 7: being attacked by eggs Jesus and they were just throwing

1488
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:47,960
Speaker 7: eggs at him and then they poured like lots of

1489
01:33:48,400 --> 01:33:51,960
Speaker 7: some powder and then like some juice and like coca cola.

1490
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:53,839
Speaker 7: I don't know what was that. They were just throwing

1491
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:56,479
Speaker 7: everything at him. And on the other another video that

1492
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:59,880
Speaker 7: I saw, they stopped a man maybe he was thirty

1493
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:03,519
Speaker 7: or something. They forced him to kiss the hand of

1494
01:34:03,640 --> 01:34:07,000
Speaker 7: a stray dog. And then yeah, that would be like, yeah,

1495
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:10,160
Speaker 7: he's kissing a dog. But in the Middle East culture

1496
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 7: when you force someone to kiss a dog.

1497
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:14,480
Speaker 5: It's very disrespectful.

1498
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:18,519
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's really disrespectful, and like they're also I read

1499
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:22,400
Speaker 7: on the internet that many Afghuns reported that, like, for example,

1500
01:34:22,439 --> 01:34:25,280
Speaker 7: in Tehran, they were renting a house or an apartment

1501
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:28,000
Speaker 7: or something, and they were living in those apartments and

1502
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:31,439
Speaker 7: the landlord reported them to the police. It's like what's

1503
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 7: happening in the US. It's something like ice, but it's

1504
01:34:34,920 --> 01:34:38,800
Speaker 7: Iranian but more brutal. Then the police just came and

1505
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:42,240
Speaker 7: took them all. And now the landlords are refusing to

1506
01:34:42,400 --> 01:34:46,559
Speaker 7: give back the passion money to Afghans, and many of

1507
01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:50,760
Speaker 7: them are being forced out without any food, without any

1508
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 7: support anything, and especially the women. Like I also read

1509
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:58,000
Speaker 7: about like a doctor that fled Polybon and he was

1510
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,040
Speaker 7: in Tehran and now if he goes back to Toliban

1511
01:35:01,080 --> 01:35:04,920
Speaker 7: will definitely kill him because he was like against Tolliban. Yeah,

1512
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 7: I mean, it's it's it's a very horrible humanitarian situation.

1513
01:35:10,479 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 7: And the people, like in Baluchistan, they are also suffering.

1514
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 7: But I saw many videos and also some of the

1515
01:35:18,320 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 7: activists published lots of footage that they were they were

1516
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:24,840
Speaker 7: bringing food, water, I don't know, medicine, and things like

1517
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 7: that on the on the road to give it to

1518
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:29,679
Speaker 7: those people who are going back, and they were offering

1519
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 7: I don't know whatever they had. And in Afghanistan there

1520
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:37,240
Speaker 7: is also happening, but it's just so crazy because both

1521
01:35:37,400 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 7: the regime and also the anti regime media are trying

1522
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:46,720
Speaker 7: to portray Afghans as the problem. Just exactly like how

1523
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 7: the far right parties in Germany, like IFD, they are

1524
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:54,200
Speaker 7: portraying refugees and migrants are as the main problem.

1525
01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:56,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a global thing. It happens here.

1526
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:02,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's it's exactly the same. Yeah, and like yeah,

1527
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:08,240
Speaker 7: unfortunately the even the Iranian opposition has not been clear.

1528
01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 7: But again because there is some sort of solidarity that

1529
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 7: encourage pollutes and Afghans and also other minorities. Yeah, it's

1530
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 7: the minorities that talk about this. It's the minority groups

1531
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 7: and organizations who try to raise awareness over this. Unfortunately,

1532
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:27,640
Speaker 7: I think nobody can stop it because they're doing it anyways.

1533
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:32,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like we shouldn't support an opposition politics. It

1534
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:34,519
Speaker 5: is just another ethnot like.

1535
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 8: We see that in Syria right now, right, Like, yeah,

1536
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 8: they haven't even changed the name. We have this revolution,

1537
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:44,240
Speaker 8: tens of thousands, maybe one hundreds of thousands of people

1538
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:48,720
Speaker 8: definitely died, Yeah, to build something better, and we still

1539
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:50,120
Speaker 8: have the Syrian Arab Republic.

1540
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:50,599
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1541
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:52,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's maybe the Alahites are.

1542
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 8: Being persecuted and they weren't before, but like that shouldn't matter, right, Like,

1543
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:59,040
Speaker 8: if we're building trying to build something better.

1544
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:01,599
Speaker 7: I mean they are just remnant of Isis. So what

1545
01:37:01,640 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 7: can you expect?

1546
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:08,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's very sad to see,

1547
01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:11,479
Speaker 8: you know, after after so much killing and dying, I

1548
01:37:11,479 --> 01:37:14,639
Speaker 8: guess to finish up, I think people in the US

1549
01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:16,920
Speaker 8: do not get very good coverage of what's happening in

1550
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:18,559
Speaker 8: a run right, Like I said that, as you say,

1551
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:23,360
Speaker 8: dominated by monarchist outlets, we tend to have good resources

1552
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 8: which allow them to kind of get to the top

1553
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 8: of people's feeds or they're getting like press TV stuff,

1554
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:33,680
Speaker 8: right that just like straight up regime propaganda.

1555
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:35,840
Speaker 5: Now, where can people find.

1556
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:39,840
Speaker 8: Like good resources to understand what's what's happening in around

1557
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:41,880
Speaker 8: Like from the perspective of you know, the majority of

1558
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:44,200
Speaker 8: people who just want to live a free life, and

1559
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 8: especially like you know, the women in particularly in a

1560
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:51,760
Speaker 8: round right, have an extremely difficult and repressive every that

1561
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:54,519
Speaker 8: the regime dominates every aspect of their lives, Like where

1562
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:57,600
Speaker 8: can people find reasonable coverage that acknowledges that.

1563
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:00,840
Speaker 7: Honestly, if I want to talk about media like TV

1564
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:06,519
Speaker 7: channels or just media websites, there is no media like

1565
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:12,439
Speaker 7: Iranian media that truly reflects what's happening in Iran. There

1566
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:16,400
Speaker 7: are like many leftists and also right wing medias. For example,

1567
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 7: if I want to go like a very leftist media

1568
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 7: called Radio Zamani, they are not really good. Like then

1569
01:38:23,439 --> 01:38:28,520
Speaker 7: we have Iran International, BBC, Persian Voice of America, Persian Independent,

1570
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:31,679
Speaker 7: Persian like there are many many media that all of these,

1571
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,000
Speaker 7: like I would say the big media, they are heavily

1572
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 7: dominated and I would say exploited by the ultranationalist people.

1573
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:46,000
Speaker 7: And also there are people who are related to IRGC

1574
01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:50,680
Speaker 7: and this organization called Nayak that is like the regime's

1575
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 7: lobby group in the US, and these individuals that work there,

1576
01:38:55,160 --> 01:39:00,320
Speaker 7: they truly don't reflect what's happening there. And I mean

1577
01:39:00,360 --> 01:39:02,679
Speaker 7: it's kind of hard because if people want to understand

1578
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:05,320
Speaker 7: what's happening, maybe they should read everything they're posting and

1579
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:08,439
Speaker 7: then analyze that, hey, this makes sense and this doesn't

1580
01:39:09,200 --> 01:39:11,360
Speaker 7: but that just a little bit hard. But also on

1581
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:15,240
Speaker 7: the other side, I would suggest that people should follow

1582
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:20,280
Speaker 7: more human rights organizations, which again some of them, if

1583
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:22,040
Speaker 7: I want, I don't know if it's okay to say

1584
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:25,160
Speaker 7: their names, some of them and the people for example,

1585
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 7: the Burrumant Organization, they did lots of great work, but

1586
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:34,880
Speaker 7: recently again they showed some sort of racism and like

1587
01:39:35,280 --> 01:39:40,600
Speaker 7: censorship against minorities, especially Kurt and people like Lot and

1588
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:43,879
Speaker 7: buzz Agane. They are like also doing some human rights

1589
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:48,160
Speaker 7: work in the US, and even people like Massi and

1590
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 7: all these I would say known activists, and even here

1591
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:57,200
Speaker 7: in Germany, they are not truly reflecting what's happening. They're

1592
01:39:57,400 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 7: just focused on the Persian and they're like they talk

1593
01:40:03,360 --> 01:40:07,520
Speaker 7: about minorities time to time, but only when it fits

1594
01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 7: into their agendas, into their ideologies and perspectives. But there

1595
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:16,800
Speaker 7: are other organizations which I'm working with, like Hangout Organization

1596
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:20,760
Speaker 7: for Human Rights. Until two thousand, late twenty twenty three,

1597
01:40:20,840 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 7: I guess we were mainly focused on East Kurdistan, but

1598
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:28,559
Speaker 7: right now we report human rights violations from all over Iran,

1599
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:32,639
Speaker 7: like yeah, but we try our best, and I think

1600
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:35,280
Speaker 7: I could say that we are one of the best

1601
01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 7: when it comes to all these things, and we don't

1602
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:42,559
Speaker 7: care about what people think. We just report what's happening

1603
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:46,439
Speaker 7: or what happened. And there are other organizations like Iran

1604
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:50,200
Speaker 7: Human Rights they're also good. For example, there is another

1605
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 7: one called Tawana. They are like a very big organization,

1606
01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:58,439
Speaker 7: but unfortunately they advocated for the monarchists again just a

1607
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:01,800
Speaker 7: few months ago, so it's kind of hard to see

1608
01:41:01,800 --> 01:41:05,439
Speaker 7: that who is truly on the side of people. And

1609
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 7: when you look at the human rights organizations. I'm not

1610
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:11,720
Speaker 7: saying this because I'm Kurdish, but this is what I

1611
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:15,680
Speaker 7: see and I think it's true. The only organizations that

1612
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:21,040
Speaker 7: truly reflect what's happening without caring about people's backgrounds or

1613
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 7: ethnicity or whatever. It's our organization. Hang Out and also

1614
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:29,920
Speaker 7: like organizations like Curtis on Human Rights Network, but unfortunately

1615
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:33,439
Speaker 7: the majority of the others are are really clear. So

1616
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:37,080
Speaker 7: for Kurdish issue, I would say definitely hang out and

1617
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:40,160
Speaker 7: also on my page Kurdistani people I also like write

1618
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:42,640
Speaker 7: a lot of things, and also Kurdish Piece Institute and

1619
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:47,639
Speaker 7: Kurtish Center for Studies. They have lots of other Kurdish

1620
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,320
Speaker 7: journalists and experts that write a lot of really good

1621
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:53,720
Speaker 7: articles about the situation there. And if I want to

1622
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:57,280
Speaker 7: mention names, I would say Rojen Mukhliani. She is like

1623
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 7: a really great researcher. She lives in our land. There

1624
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:06,400
Speaker 7: is another professor called Camraan Martin. He also writes really

1625
01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:11,120
Speaker 7: great analysis on situation and like the things that people

1626
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:14,479
Speaker 7: even don't think about. They're writing with so many different

1627
01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:19,440
Speaker 7: international organizations and institutes. Yeah, there are like these individuals

1628
01:42:19,439 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 7: and activists.

1629
01:42:21,640 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 8: Thank you so much for joining us. That was really

1630
01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:26,360
Speaker 8: that really helped, I think for people to understand things.

1631
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:29,160
Speaker 8: Tell us about your your Kurdistan People page. Where can

1632
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:31,400
Speaker 8: they find that on on Instagram?

1633
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you for inviting me and thank you for

1634
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:39,679
Speaker 7: letting me speak. Yeah, I have this page Kurdistani People.

1635
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:44,160
Speaker 7: I usually post about all over Kurdistan the things that matter.

1636
01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:47,600
Speaker 7: Obviously I can't do it all the time, but yeah, yeah,

1637
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:50,280
Speaker 7: I post a lot of things. And there are other

1638
01:42:50,320 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 7: pages that are also collaborate with, like Kurdish Activism or

1639
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 7: everything about Kurtistan, where just a group of people who

1640
01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:00,160
Speaker 7: work together. Obviously, like our organization, I think it's it's

1641
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:02,760
Speaker 7: very very important for people to follow and support it

1642
01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:08,240
Speaker 7: hang Out Organization for Human Rights and also Kurdistan Human

1643
01:43:08,320 --> 01:43:12,880
Speaker 7: Rights Network that's also like another one that you can follow. Yeah,

1644
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:15,760
Speaker 7: and also like GA I talked about some names and

1645
01:43:15,880 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 7: individuals and researchers. Yeah, you can also follow them for

1646
01:43:20,040 --> 01:43:25,120
Speaker 7: more professional analysis about East Kurdistan or Rochalot.

1647
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 5: Yeah. Great, well, thank you Sam for joining us. We

1648
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:28,639
Speaker 5: really appreciate your time.

1649
01:43:28,960 --> 01:43:30,559
Speaker 7: Thank you, Thank you very much.

1650
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:53,200
Speaker 5: Hi everyone, and welcome. What could happen here?

1651
01:43:53,320 --> 01:43:57,840
Speaker 8: It is a second episode about Kurdistan. I am very

1652
01:43:57,960 --> 01:44:02,519
Speaker 8: lucky to be joined today by Vladimir van Wilgenberg, who

1653
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,200
Speaker 8: many of you will know is a journalist covering Kurdistan.

1654
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:08,280
Speaker 8: It's done excellent work for a lot of publications. So

1655
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:09,839
Speaker 8: welcome to the show of Vladimir.

1656
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:11,040
Speaker 7: Thanks so much for irritation.

1657
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 8: Yeah, thanks for thanks for being willing to join us

1658
01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:16,360
Speaker 8: so late at night your time. Let's start off by

1659
01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:20,080
Speaker 8: discussing an event you attended or the event you were

1660
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:23,200
Speaker 8: in proximity too. By the sounds of it, people will

1661
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:25,519
Speaker 8: have seen this online, I'm sure, but it was the

1662
01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:32,759
Speaker 8: disarmament of a number of PKKE garrillas that took place

1663
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:37,080
Speaker 8: in the mountains of southern Kurdistan over the weekend of

1664
01:44:37,120 --> 01:44:38,719
Speaker 8: the tenth to twelfth of July.

1665
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:42,640
Speaker 10: So yeah, a few days ago, well, I tried to

1666
01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:46,160
Speaker 10: attend the ceremony from for the big Kegary Lass that

1667
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:51,479
Speaker 10: were disarming, but sally what happened is that they burned

1668
01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:54,559
Speaker 10: their weapons, although technically it's not really possible to burn

1669
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:57,240
Speaker 10: a weapon because there were colossic coals specially that they

1670
01:44:57,240 --> 01:44:59,679
Speaker 10: were put they put in a fire, and it wasn't

1671
01:44:59,720 --> 01:45:02,519
Speaker 10: like a actually a tourist cave near do Kan, so

1672
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:05,200
Speaker 10: this is not It was actually very different because I

1673
01:45:05,240 --> 01:45:08,800
Speaker 10: also have been in during the peace process. I've also

1674
01:45:09,120 --> 01:45:10,840
Speaker 10: was in a press conference of the pik Ak in

1675
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:14,880
Speaker 10: two thousand fourteen or fifteen or some of that around

1676
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:17,360
Speaker 10: that time, and that was very different because it was

1677
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 10: basically in the area that the Pikak is activated. It

1678
01:45:20,240 --> 01:45:22,760
Speaker 10: was in the area under their control, but this was

1679
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:27,240
Speaker 10: under a different Kurdish parties control. It's called the patriarch

1680
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:30,920
Speaker 10: Union of Kurdistan. So in Iraqi Kurdistan you have two

1681
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 10: main parties, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and you have

1682
01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:38,680
Speaker 10: the Kurdistan Democratic Party. So this cave where they did

1683
01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:41,600
Speaker 10: the ceremony, which is actually a tourist cave. It's in

1684
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:46,000
Speaker 10: PUK controlled area, so the ceremony was sort of protected

1685
01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:49,559
Speaker 10: by PUK security forces and that's why. Also the PUK

1686
01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:53,559
Speaker 10: media they got a lot of special access, and also

1687
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:56,160
Speaker 10: there was the Turkish government media was there, and also

1688
01:45:56,280 --> 01:45:59,200
Speaker 10: PIKK media was there and a lot of other Kurdish

1689
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:00,000
Speaker 10: TV channels.

1690
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:02,080
Speaker 7: So it was a very interesting day.

1691
01:46:02,400 --> 01:46:05,080
Speaker 10: Although I was not able to pass the checkpoint towards

1692
01:46:05,080 --> 01:46:08,200
Speaker 10: the ceremony because at the last moment, actually a few

1693
01:46:08,280 --> 01:46:10,120
Speaker 10: days before the ceremony, they.

1694
01:46:10,080 --> 01:46:11,519
Speaker 7: Changed the access.

1695
01:46:12,040 --> 01:46:14,559
Speaker 10: Supposedly it will be a very open ceremony, but then

1696
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:17,360
Speaker 10: they said for because of security reasons that they had

1697
01:46:17,360 --> 01:46:19,479
Speaker 10: to restrict the ceremony and there would be some TV

1698
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:22,839
Speaker 10: screens and stuff. And then I couldn't find the TV screens.

1699
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:26,200
Speaker 10: But that's another discussion. But I also don't still understand

1700
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 10: what the security risk was. Although a day before there

1701
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:34,600
Speaker 10: was a drone strike on a Kurdish Peshmerga base, but

1702
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:36,960
Speaker 10: that was like quite far away from that. It was

1703
01:46:37,040 --> 01:46:39,200
Speaker 10: one hour away from the ceremony location.

1704
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:41,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it's an Iranian droned to take great like

1705
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 8: a Shahi drone.

1706
01:46:42,840 --> 01:46:45,599
Speaker 10: Yeah, So there have been like no group has claimed

1707
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:49,160
Speaker 10: these attacks. But after, in the aftermath of the Twelve

1708
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:51,679
Speaker 10: Day War, there have been a lot of drone strikes

1709
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:56,719
Speaker 10: in the Kurdistan region in various areas, including this morning

1710
01:46:56,840 --> 01:47:01,080
Speaker 10: on an American oil company's facility in the province Okay,

1711
01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:05,479
Speaker 10: and the day before that also on another field near Airbill.

1712
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:09,000
Speaker 10: So it has been quite tense, Yeah, which also probably

1713
01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:10,760
Speaker 10: affected the ceremony, although it's not.

1714
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:11,639
Speaker 7: Really related to it.

1715
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:12,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's different.

1716
01:47:13,400 --> 01:47:16,240
Speaker 10: So yeah, basically what was interesting, So they have this

1717
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:19,479
Speaker 10: peace process between Kurdish rebels and the Turkish state.

1718
01:47:20,240 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 11: It's all started with a call by a.

1719
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:25,679
Speaker 10: Turkish ultra and nationalist leader which actually in the past

1720
01:47:25,720 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 10: actually called for executing ab the Loachland, the leader of

1721
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:32,679
Speaker 10: the Kurdistan Workers Party has been in prison since the nineties.

1722
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:37,200
Speaker 10: He was actually surprisingly starting this peace process.

1723
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:39,440
Speaker 7: He was saying like we should.

1724
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:42,280
Speaker 10: Have him talk in the parliament and call for disbanding

1725
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:45,400
Speaker 10: the pik a K. So he never came to the parliament,

1726
01:47:45,439 --> 01:47:50,000
Speaker 10: but he released messages from prison, and before the ceremony

1727
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 10: he released also a video message where he again focused

1728
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:59,040
Speaker 10: on disarming basically. Yeah, and then the ceremony basically came

1729
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:04,639
Speaker 10: where he had thirty fighters fifteen women fifteen men, because

1730
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:07,439
Speaker 10: the pikk is all about woman equality, so that's why

1731
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:10,519
Speaker 10: they did it fifty to fifty, and they put their

1732
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 10: weapons in this fire. So I think this is also secondfice,

1733
01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:18,080
Speaker 10: a point of renewal because Kurts, as a tradition, they

1734
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:21,120
Speaker 10: have this Kurdish New Year every year on twenty one March,

1735
01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:24,760
Speaker 10: where people jump over fires. There's a lot of fireworks,

1736
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:27,120
Speaker 10: and the Kurdish and atros is basically the start of

1737
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 10: a new beginning.

1738
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:28,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I.

1739
01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:31,720
Speaker 10: Think one of the reasons they chose these fires is

1740
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:35,200
Speaker 10: because of this idea of a new beginning, and also

1741
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:39,200
Speaker 10: the fact that when the Pikak started there were people

1742
01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:41,280
Speaker 10: that sort of the creators of the pik k. They

1743
01:48:41,280 --> 01:48:43,559
Speaker 10: are actually some of them they burned themselves in prison

1744
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:49,240
Speaker 10: in the Turkish prisoneh. So it's also sort of related

1745
01:48:49,280 --> 01:48:53,840
Speaker 10: to that, this sort of interlinkage with a fire. Yeah,

1746
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:57,759
Speaker 10: and you also saw that they carefully put the weapons

1747
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:00,479
Speaker 10: in the fire, they didn't just throw them. So it's

1748
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:03,360
Speaker 10: it doesn't mean that they have completely given up on weapons,

1749
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:09,120
Speaker 10: because they're still waiting on counter steps from the Turkish government.

1750
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:15,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like there has been fighting between pikk or hPG

1751
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:17,920
Speaker 5: or how you want to say it, like hPG being

1752
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:21,000
Speaker 5: like the technically the armed wing. There has been fighting

1753
01:49:21,080 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 5: in southern Kurdistan, like in Iraqi kig Kerdistan Autonomous Region

1754
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:29,920
Speaker 5: of Iraq since the call for peace, right like there

1755
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:31,120
Speaker 5: has been ongoing fighting.

1756
01:49:31,479 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean it's not really I would not say

1757
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:38,880
Speaker 10: that it's like like actively fighting to take territory, yes,

1758
01:49:38,920 --> 01:49:40,360
Speaker 10: which was happening before.

1759
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:42,000
Speaker 7: So it's more that.

1760
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:46,400
Speaker 10: It's some like Turkish armies shooting artillery on the pik

1761
01:49:46,400 --> 01:49:49,799
Speaker 10: Ak and there was also one incident that the Pikak

1762
01:49:49,960 --> 01:49:51,439
Speaker 10: actually responded by drones.

1763
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:53,240
Speaker 7: But so far this.

1764
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:55,840
Speaker 10: Didn't reach much in the Turkish or the Kurdish media.

1765
01:49:55,920 --> 01:49:58,120
Speaker 10: I mean they were like, some of this artillery shelling

1766
01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:01,360
Speaker 10: costs some fires, so villagers in the areas it's a

1767
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:03,840
Speaker 10: very hot summer now, they were trying to put out

1768
01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:07,280
Speaker 10: the fires. But it was not like the active, active

1769
01:50:07,320 --> 01:50:11,120
Speaker 10: fighting that you had before. And you know, since there

1770
01:50:11,160 --> 01:50:13,120
Speaker 10: was also a previous peace process. I mean, there have

1771
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 10: been several peace processes since history between the Pikyk and Turkey,

1772
01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:21,120
Speaker 10: but they never had a positive result. And last one

1773
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:25,400
Speaker 10: before this song was twenty fifteen, and after that peace

1774
01:50:25,439 --> 01:50:28,800
Speaker 10: process broke down when two policemen were shot. It's still

1775
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:33,720
Speaker 10: unclear who shot those policemen. The fighting erupted again and

1776
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:36,400
Speaker 10: since then there have been heavy fighting, first in the

1777
01:50:36,479 --> 01:50:42,959
Speaker 10: Kurdish majority areas of Turkey until basically Turkey defeated Kurdish

1778
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:46,439
Speaker 10: armed insurgents in the Kurdish cities in Turkey, and since

1779
01:50:46,479 --> 01:50:49,760
Speaker 10: then actually the fighting has moved more to Iraqi Kurdistan,

1780
01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:53,440
Speaker 10: where the pikk has also a historical presence since the nineties.

1781
01:50:54,360 --> 01:50:57,280
Speaker 10: What you now have is that you have this new

1782
01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:01,000
Speaker 10: peace process started by the skull of Bats Shelly and

1783
01:51:01,479 --> 01:51:04,680
Speaker 10: the big Aka leader Johanna has said the time for

1784
01:51:04,880 --> 01:51:07,760
Speaker 10: armed struggle is over. We don't want to have a

1785
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:11,320
Speaker 10: Kurdish date. So basically what now is happening is that

1786
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:15,960
Speaker 10: the Kurdish Pikak and the Kurdish political counterpart in Turkey,

1787
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:20,400
Speaker 10: they're basically waiting for steps by Turkey now to give

1788
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:23,360
Speaker 10: them basically trust to continue this process.

1789
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:25,400
Speaker 7: And there was also a speech by.

1790
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:28,639
Speaker 10: The Turkish president Erdoland where he was also saying that

1791
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:32,160
Speaker 10: it's the end. We don't need anymore, We need to talk.

1792
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:35,720
Speaker 10: It's not a time for weapons anymore. We spend trillions

1793
01:51:35,720 --> 01:51:38,680
Speaker 10: of dollars on the war against the pik Ak. We

1794
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:42,720
Speaker 10: had this a lot of martyrs and we sacrificed a lot,

1795
01:51:43,360 --> 01:51:46,160
Speaker 10: and it's now the time to stop the war and

1796
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:48,800
Speaker 10: to do talking. And he said they're going to work

1797
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 10: with the Kurdish Party and this ultra Turkish nationalist party

1798
01:51:52,479 --> 01:51:56,200
Speaker 10: the MHP in the parliament, and to also set up

1799
01:51:56,200 --> 01:51:59,839
Speaker 10: a commission to basically work on constitutional changes.

1800
01:52:00,240 --> 01:52:02,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, let's take a break for adverts here and then

1801
01:52:02,280 --> 01:52:16,200
Speaker 8: we'll come back. All right, we are back. I guess

1802
01:52:16,439 --> 01:52:19,519
Speaker 8: we should talk briefly about like the nature of this

1803
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:21,360
Speaker 8: this core for piece. You explained very well that this

1804
01:52:21,479 --> 01:52:23,280
Speaker 8: is probably a higher chance of success than there has

1805
01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:26,160
Speaker 8: ever been, right, Like, we have the explicit buy in

1806
01:52:26,280 --> 01:52:30,160
Speaker 8: of Ojulan, who hasn't been seen on video since the nineties,

1807
01:52:30,200 --> 01:52:32,000
Speaker 8: so like to have him making a video statement, it's

1808
01:52:32,040 --> 01:52:34,600
Speaker 8: quite significant. I'm sure he's been seen on video, but

1809
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:37,760
Speaker 8: like not not like making a speech, right, and then

1810
01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:41,680
Speaker 8: that we have like this this endorsement in the Turkish Parliament. Like,

1811
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 8: I think there's been a lot of speculation about what

1812
01:52:46,479 --> 01:52:49,479
Speaker 8: led to this, and some of it's not particularly helpful.

1813
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:52,840
Speaker 8: But you know, you're you're very well educated on these matters.

1814
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:56,160
Speaker 8: What do you think this means for not just the

1815
01:52:56,200 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 8: PKK but the k c K. I guess like the

1816
01:52:58,600 --> 01:53:01,599
Speaker 8: Kurdish Freedom Movement that the diferent movements throughout Curtistown, they

1817
01:53:01,600 --> 01:53:05,400
Speaker 8: are inspired by the political thought of Aujilan Well.

1818
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:08,240
Speaker 10: I mean, until now, it's difficult to say what exactly

1819
01:53:08,280 --> 01:53:11,439
Speaker 10: is going to happen because the PIKK said they're going

1820
01:53:11,479 --> 01:53:12,839
Speaker 10: to go, they will disarm.

1821
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:14,679
Speaker 7: But there's other.

1822
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:18,639
Speaker 10: Groups which are linked to the PIKK in Iran, Iran

1823
01:53:18,840 --> 01:53:23,080
Speaker 10: and in Syria and also for instance Sinjar. Those groups

1824
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:25,559
Speaker 10: said they were not Some of them have said publicly

1825
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:27,880
Speaker 10: that we're not part of this process or they welcome

1826
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,800
Speaker 10: the process, and others they didn't really say much.

1827
01:53:30,840 --> 01:53:32,920
Speaker 11: To the City's group haven't said really a lot.

1828
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:35,519
Speaker 7: Yeah, so it's also going to.

1829
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:38,160
Speaker 10: Be interesting what will happen with those groups, with the

1830
01:53:38,160 --> 01:53:42,599
Speaker 10: Iranian Kurdish group and also with the Serian democratic forces

1831
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 10: in Syria that have a different situation. Also after the

1832
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,720
Speaker 10: fall of US out, they have these talks with Damascus.

1833
01:53:48,240 --> 01:53:50,519
Speaker 10: And actually one of the reasons that the first piece

1834
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:54,439
Speaker 10: process broke down was because that in actually at that

1835
01:53:54,479 --> 01:53:56,559
Speaker 10: time also that Turkey was a little bit afraid of

1836
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:59,800
Speaker 10: this alliance between the Kurds and the Americans at the

1837
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:03,760
Speaker 10: time against ISIS that was then rising up in Syria

1838
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:06,120
Speaker 10: and attacked the Kurdish town of Cobine in Syria, which

1839
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:09,519
Speaker 10: created an alliance between the Kurts and the US against

1840
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:13,439
Speaker 10: the ISIS terrorists militant jihadi group.

1841
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:17,040
Speaker 11: But now the situation actually is interesting.

1842
01:54:17,160 --> 01:54:20,320
Speaker 10: So at that time the Curds were empowered in Syria,

1843
01:54:20,720 --> 01:54:23,320
Speaker 10: but now you can see there's a completely different situation

1844
01:54:23,439 --> 01:54:27,040
Speaker 10: now the opposite way. So now you have the rebels

1845
01:54:27,040 --> 01:54:29,600
Speaker 10: that took over Damascus and they are now the government

1846
01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:33,840
Speaker 10: run by Jiulani his previous name, who's now called himself

1847
01:54:33,840 --> 01:54:37,200
Speaker 10: antal Shada, his real name. So they now have a

1848
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:41,560
Speaker 10: new Islamist controlled government and Damascus, and there's a lot

1849
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:45,120
Speaker 10: of tension between the Curts in Syria and Damascus. So

1850
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:48,240
Speaker 10: this could also risk basically this piece process with Turkey

1851
01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:52,400
Speaker 10: because the SDF they have also ideological ins with the

1852
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:55,920
Speaker 10: pik Ak So it's also interesting how this will work out.

1853
01:54:55,960 --> 01:54:57,960
Speaker 10: So in the past it was also always like the

1854
01:54:57,960 --> 01:55:00,200
Speaker 10: fighting between Turkey and the Pika k could threat than

1855
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 10: the SCF Assyria, but of sort of the other way

1856
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,080
Speaker 10: around that fighting between possible fighting in the future between

1857
01:55:06,120 --> 01:55:09,240
Speaker 10: Damascus and the curtain Syria, it could threaten the peace

1858
01:55:09,280 --> 01:55:12,120
Speaker 10: process in Turkey. Yeah, and erdo and he made this

1859
01:55:12,240 --> 01:55:14,880
Speaker 10: very big speech not a very long time ago where

1860
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:17,800
Speaker 10: he mentioned that Turkey doesn't only want peace for the

1861
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:20,720
Speaker 10: Curse in Turkey and for Alla Whites, also a religious

1862
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:23,240
Speaker 10: minority in Turkey, but he was also talking that he

1863
01:55:23,280 --> 01:55:25,960
Speaker 10: wants peace for the Curse in Syria and also in Iraq,

1864
01:55:25,960 --> 01:55:28,640
Speaker 10: that they should also live like a prosperous life in Syria,

1865
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:31,280
Speaker 10: and that they have good relations with the Sian government.

1866
01:55:31,600 --> 01:55:33,560
Speaker 10: So I think that's also a very interesting point that

1867
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:36,640
Speaker 10: you don't see many articles that there's like this very

1868
01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:40,280
Speaker 10: big interlinkage between all these different tissues.

1869
01:55:40,440 --> 01:55:44,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I think Turkey has maintained that the SDF

1870
01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 8: is the PKK right just with like a different badge,

1871
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:49,840
Speaker 8: which is not the case.

1872
01:55:49,960 --> 01:55:53,040
Speaker 5: They share a lot of politics, but they're distinct. Turkey

1873
01:55:53,040 --> 01:55:57,520
Speaker 5: also has like extensive proxy forces in Syria that have

1874
01:55:57,640 --> 01:56:02,480
Speaker 5: been fighting with the SDF since I guess late well,

1875
01:56:02,560 --> 01:56:05,560
Speaker 5: I mean for years, but like in an expanded sense,

1876
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:09,080
Speaker 5: since since the beginning of the fall of the Asad

1877
01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:13,920
Speaker 5: regime that we saw like probably seven or eight months ago. Now, No,

1878
01:56:14,240 --> 01:56:17,520
Speaker 5: it's a very complex situation. It's also as as we

1879
01:56:17,600 --> 01:56:21,520
Speaker 5: record this today on the fifteenth, Syria is a very

1880
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:24,919
Speaker 5: diverse country and to add to all the groups you mentioned,

1881
01:56:25,240 --> 01:56:30,720
Speaker 5: there is currently fighting between the government and Druze militias. Right,

1882
01:56:31,000 --> 01:56:33,240
Speaker 5: can you explain a little bit about the situation there

1883
01:56:33,360 --> 01:56:35,640
Speaker 5: and the relevance of that.

1884
01:56:36,280 --> 01:56:39,000
Speaker 10: Well, I mean the Drus they are a religious community

1885
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:42,720
Speaker 10: that are not same as the Sunni Muslims, and they

1886
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 10: control their own area on the border, the town called

1887
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:49,760
Speaker 10: Sweda and the villages around it, and also they have

1888
01:56:49,840 --> 01:56:53,120
Speaker 10: some areas in Damascus where they have the presence. So

1889
01:56:53,160 --> 01:56:56,400
Speaker 10: the Drews basically during the time when the Asad regime

1890
01:56:56,480 --> 01:57:00,000
Speaker 10: still wasn't power, they didn't really like fight very high

1891
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:03,600
Speaker 10: against the Assaut regime in the beginning, but they didn't

1892
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 10: allow the Assaut regime to recruit military recruit people in

1893
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:09,480
Speaker 10: their area and they sort of tried to keep the

1894
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:11,560
Speaker 10: regime out of their area. So during the civil war

1895
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:14,720
Speaker 10: they were sort of semi autonomous, but not officially. And

1896
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:18,880
Speaker 10: actually in the last years before the fall OFFASA, they

1897
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:22,640
Speaker 10: were like a big protests in the Drews areas in

1898
01:57:22,760 --> 01:57:25,480
Speaker 10: support of the Syne Revolution and against the Assaut regime.

1899
01:57:25,560 --> 01:57:27,600
Speaker 10: So they were like very big protests in the Druz

1900
01:57:27,640 --> 01:57:30,760
Speaker 10: areas against the Assaut regime. So when the Assad regime

1901
01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:34,760
Speaker 10: was militarily weakening and the rebels from the other side

1902
01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:38,080
Speaker 10: of Syria they were attacking the Assad regime, the Drews

1903
01:57:38,120 --> 01:57:40,880
Speaker 10: they also joined the fight and they marched together with

1904
01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:44,520
Speaker 10: the Southern rebels. They marched on to Moscus, and they

1905
01:57:44,560 --> 01:57:46,720
Speaker 10: were actually the first one that entered the Moscus, not

1906
01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:51,280
Speaker 10: the ahmtal Shada or the HTS. Actually the first ones

1907
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:56,000
Speaker 10: that entered the Moscus was the Southern rebels and the Drews.

1908
01:57:55,440 --> 01:57:59,200
Speaker 10: But there's this thing is that the Moscus wants to

1909
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 10: have this new regime or the new government, and the

1910
01:58:02,320 --> 01:58:05,280
Speaker 10: Mouscus they want to have this very centralized system, so

1911
01:58:05,360 --> 01:58:08,080
Speaker 10: they don't want the Drews to run their own armed

1912
01:58:08,080 --> 01:58:12,120
Speaker 10: groups and they have their own sort of local autonomy,

1913
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:15,800
Speaker 10: so they have They have been fighting before between the

1914
01:58:15,840 --> 01:58:19,480
Speaker 10: Drews and the new authorities in Syria in areas near Damascus,

1915
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:22,720
Speaker 10: but there was like a ceasefire and the fighting stopped.

1916
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 10: But recently there's also like historical tensions between these Arab

1917
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 10: bedouin tribes and the Drews in this area. So these

1918
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 10: areas are quite mixed. So there's actually this recent conflict.

1919
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:38,680
Speaker 10: They started when Biduan tribes they they robbed like a

1920
01:58:38,720 --> 01:58:41,680
Speaker 10: merchant who was a Druce and then after that they

1921
01:58:41,720 --> 01:58:46,160
Speaker 10: were like mutual kidnapping, like tensions within both sides. And

1922
01:58:46,200 --> 01:58:49,040
Speaker 10: then basically, although the Moscus said they were neutral, the

1923
01:58:49,120 --> 01:58:52,600
Speaker 10: Muscus started to support these Bedouin groups against the Drus

1924
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:55,560
Speaker 10: and started marching on on Sueda, which is the the

1925
01:58:55,720 --> 01:58:58,240
Speaker 10: drew stronghold on the border.

1926
01:58:58,800 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 11: And so actually there have been.

1927
01:59:00,920 --> 01:59:03,520
Speaker 10: Like a few days, not even a few days, but

1928
01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:06,600
Speaker 10: have been like a short period of fighting now and

1929
01:59:06,720 --> 01:59:12,400
Speaker 10: actually Damascus they entered this Zruze town of Sueda and

1930
01:59:12,440 --> 01:59:14,560
Speaker 10: they actually said, okay, we control the town now, and

1931
01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:17,240
Speaker 10: now we're going to withdraw the Seran army and then

1932
01:59:17,280 --> 01:59:19,760
Speaker 10: the internal security force is going to control the city.

1933
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:25,440
Speaker 10: That very shortly after, Israel started bombing heavily the cern

1934
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:29,680
Speaker 10: armed forces of the new Sirn government and then the

1935
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:32,760
Speaker 10: Drews armed groups they sort of pushed back and they

1936
01:59:32,800 --> 01:59:35,480
Speaker 10: pushed out this internal security force out of the city.

1937
01:59:35,520 --> 01:59:38,160
Speaker 10: And now the Drews are according to many reports back

1938
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:41,680
Speaker 10: in control of the city of Zuida. And now you

1939
01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:45,000
Speaker 10: see that just like what happened with the Alla Whites

1940
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:49,560
Speaker 10: when there was this Osad regime remnants that had uprising

1941
01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:52,920
Speaker 10: against the new authorities, and then there were like these rebels.

1942
01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:55,920
Speaker 10: They were mobilized with mosk all over Syria and they

1943
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:59,760
Speaker 10: went to the coast areas and they defeated those Assad regime,

1944
02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:02,280
Speaker 10: but they killed also a lot of civilians, some reports

1945
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:05,600
Speaker 10: over fifteen hundred people. So what you now see is

1946
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:09,640
Speaker 10: that the Damascus is against mobilizing those people with mosques

1947
02:00:09,680 --> 02:00:12,960
Speaker 10: to march on Zueda. But the difference is with the

1948
02:00:12,960 --> 02:00:16,680
Speaker 10: All Whites is that Israel also has DRUS, So there's

1949
02:00:16,680 --> 02:00:20,960
Speaker 10: also pressure on the Israeli government to support the Drews.

1950
02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:23,560
Speaker 10: So it's not only because of their strategic interests, it's

1951
02:00:23,560 --> 02:00:26,280
Speaker 10: also because they are Drews living in Israel itself that

1952
02:00:27,040 --> 02:00:30,120
Speaker 10: also have joined the Israelian army, so they're also pushing

1953
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:34,320
Speaker 10: Israel for taking action. So you saw that today like Israel,

1954
02:00:34,400 --> 02:00:36,640
Speaker 10: they took a lot of they carried out a lot

1955
02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:38,880
Speaker 10: of air strikes, and the Drews that are basically back

1956
02:00:39,400 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 10: in control of most of the Sueda city, not of

1957
02:00:42,840 --> 02:00:45,880
Speaker 10: the whole area. But the fighting is not over yet.

1958
02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:48,680
Speaker 10: And then you also have different Ruis fractions. Some of

1959
02:00:48,720 --> 02:00:51,720
Speaker 10: them they have better relations with Damascus, the majority of

1960
02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:54,800
Speaker 10: them don't. So now we're going to see if there's

1961
02:00:54,880 --> 02:00:56,880
Speaker 10: going to be fighting, if the fighting is going to

1962
02:00:56,920 --> 02:01:01,360
Speaker 10: increase again, We've seen our reports of the HDS or

1963
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:04,280
Speaker 10: that the Moscus government forces are using drones strikes by

1964
02:01:04,320 --> 02:01:08,320
Speaker 10: themselves on Thuice forces. So they're using basically the drones

1965
02:01:08,360 --> 02:01:10,160
Speaker 10: that they used to overthrow the sut regime.

1966
02:01:10,320 --> 02:01:11,919
Speaker 7: Okay, so yeah, that's the situation.

1967
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:15,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think like the world stopped looking at Syria.

1968
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:17,480
Speaker 8: I mean, I guess the world stop looking at Syria

1969
02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 8: a while ago, like really, after the defeat of the

1970
02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:25,000
Speaker 8: Territorial Califate, it's been much harder to sell stories in

1971
02:01:25,040 --> 02:01:28,280
Speaker 8: big newspapers in the United States. But yeah, it's by

1972
02:01:28,320 --> 02:01:31,000
Speaker 8: no means, like the fighting is not over, and it

1973
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:37,320
Speaker 8: leaves their SDF Western Kurdistan branch of this Kurdish movement right,

1974
02:01:37,400 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 8: like in as you said, a fairly perilous condition.

1975
02:01:40,920 --> 02:01:41,360
Speaker 7: Right, the.

1976
02:01:42,840 --> 02:01:46,360
Speaker 8: Damascus wants to centralize like they want to have they

1977
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:48,480
Speaker 8: don't want to have independent they don't want to have

1978
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:54,080
Speaker 8: like federated autonomy. The United States seems to be at

1979
02:01:54,160 --> 02:01:57,520
Speaker 8: least the United States envoy to Damascus seems to be

1980
02:01:57,560 --> 02:02:00,880
Speaker 8: making statements. It suggests that like the only way for

1981
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:15,200
Speaker 8: it through centralization. On one hand, we have the Pepkklene

1982
02:02:15,280 --> 02:02:17,680
Speaker 8: and arm hand, we have the SDF in its difficult position.

1983
02:02:18,480 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 8: Where does this leave Like the Kurdish Freedom movement, I

1984
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:23,080
Speaker 8: think this has been the thing that a lot of

1985
02:02:23,080 --> 02:02:24,800
Speaker 8: people all over the world have looked up to, right,

1986
02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 8: people have, especially rish Ava, as this example that people

1987
02:02:28,560 --> 02:02:31,760
Speaker 8: could build something a place where freedom could exist in

1988
02:02:31,800 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 8: the middle of this terrible war in Syria.

1989
02:02:34,280 --> 02:02:36,560
Speaker 5: Do you think the movement's like in danger now?

1990
02:02:37,160 --> 02:02:42,120
Speaker 10: Well, I mean you have this new government in Syria actually,

1991
02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:45,400
Speaker 10: and in initially Trump administration was quite reluctant to have

1992
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:49,200
Speaker 10: relations with the new authorities in Damascus because they were

1993
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:52,240
Speaker 10: I mean, Jiolana used to be on a y Ahmad

1994
02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:54,680
Speaker 10: I used to be on a terrorist sanctional list.

1995
02:02:54,880 --> 02:02:56,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a bounty for him at one point,

1996
02:02:57,000 --> 02:02:57,560
Speaker 5: it wasn't there.

1997
02:02:57,720 --> 02:02:59,959
Speaker 10: Yeah, But I think there was like a very intensive

1998
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:04,080
Speaker 10: lobbying by some Gulf states and Turkey to basically remove

1999
02:03:04,120 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 10: the sanctions on an Ashata Julani, but also removed sanctions

2000
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:11,760
Speaker 10: on Syria that the economic sanctions that were actually were

2001
02:03:11,800 --> 02:03:12,560
Speaker 10: on the Asaturgy.

2002
02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:15,360
Speaker 11: So I think the Trump administration changed their position.

2003
02:03:15,440 --> 02:03:19,480
Speaker 10: And also a new ambassador for Syria and Turkey was appointed,

2004
02:03:19,520 --> 02:03:21,400
Speaker 10: so he was not only the bassador Turkey but also

2005
02:03:21,480 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 10: for Syria, and he's basically echoing a lot of the

2006
02:03:24,160 --> 02:03:28,320
Speaker 10: points of the new authorities in Damascus that he was

2007
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:32,080
Speaker 10: talking about one state, one army, one days, one days,

2008
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:35,080
Speaker 10: and the SEF should be integrated and blah blah blah.

2009
02:03:35,120 --> 02:03:38,680
Speaker 10: So there was also recently there were talks between Damascus

2010
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:41,160
Speaker 10: and the STF because in March they reached an agreement

2011
02:03:41,720 --> 02:03:45,160
Speaker 10: with Western support and they were trying to basically make

2012
02:03:45,200 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 10: a more finalized agreement in recently a few days ago,

2013
02:03:50,040 --> 02:03:52,520
Speaker 10: they had these talks in Damascus and the French were

2014
02:03:52,560 --> 02:03:54,520
Speaker 10: there and the Brits were there and Americans were there.

2015
02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:57,040
Speaker 11: But this agreement was not implemented.

2016
02:03:57,080 --> 02:03:58,240
Speaker 7: It didn't lead to anything.

2017
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:01,800
Speaker 10: So it was that really didn't really work very well

2018
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:05,080
Speaker 10: because the Moscus is insisting on this centralized state. And

2019
02:04:05,120 --> 02:04:08,400
Speaker 10: I was just listening to Kurdish sharing Kurdish official as

2020
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:11,160
Speaker 10: she was also saying, like we don't want to separate

2021
02:04:11,240 --> 02:04:13,480
Speaker 10: from Syria, but we want to have some form of

2022
02:04:13,960 --> 02:04:18,520
Speaker 10: local councils and a decentralized Syria, not like a centralized Syria.

2023
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:20,880
Speaker 10: And she was also talking about what happened to the

2024
02:04:20,960 --> 02:04:23,360
Speaker 10: Drews that it's not a very good example.

2025
02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:24,680
Speaker 7: For the future of Syria.

2026
02:04:24,760 --> 02:04:26,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, so I think definitely what you're saying that there

2027
02:04:26,880 --> 02:04:30,280
Speaker 10: is a sort of a threat because in the past

2028
02:04:31,120 --> 02:04:34,800
Speaker 10: was very supportive of the SEF in the fight against ISIS,

2029
02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:38,040
Speaker 10: although they didn't support so much their political project, but

2030
02:04:38,600 --> 02:04:41,640
Speaker 10: they supported them because they fought ISIS. And also they

2031
02:04:41,680 --> 02:04:45,240
Speaker 10: were keeping out Iranian backed malicious from areas like the Resor.

2032
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:47,880
Speaker 10: But now you don't have me run anymore. In Syria,

2033
02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:49,960
Speaker 10: they were completely kicked out after the fall of the

2034
02:04:49,960 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 10: Asot regime. All these militias they have been disbanded or

2035
02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:56,200
Speaker 10: hiding or some of them actually now being used by

2036
02:04:56,200 --> 02:04:59,560
Speaker 10: the Muscus against the Jews. So now that argument is

2037
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 10: not there anymore, that you okay, we have the SDF,

2038
02:05:02,280 --> 02:05:05,080
Speaker 10: they keep out the run from the oil fields. Yeah,

2039
02:05:05,120 --> 02:05:07,440
Speaker 10: you could still argue you have still have the fight

2040
02:05:07,480 --> 02:05:10,160
Speaker 10: against ICES, I mean ICES is still thread. Yeah, but

2041
02:05:10,560 --> 02:05:13,120
Speaker 10: the Curts don't have that same leverage anymore as is

2042
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:14,960
Speaker 10: in the past, that they said, Okay, we're the main

2043
02:05:15,040 --> 02:05:18,120
Speaker 10: ones fighting ices. We keep out the run from these

2044
02:05:18,200 --> 02:05:21,000
Speaker 10: areas because now you have the Moscus. The Moscus said,

2045
02:05:21,040 --> 02:05:24,000
Speaker 10: why the kurtshould do that? Like, let's us take over

2046
02:05:24,040 --> 02:05:27,680
Speaker 10: those prisons and the camps where you have these thousands

2047
02:05:27,680 --> 02:05:31,080
Speaker 10: of ISIS families and ices prisoners, and we don't need

2048
02:05:31,120 --> 02:05:33,080
Speaker 10: the Curts to run the ices. Well, we can do

2049
02:05:33,160 --> 02:05:35,640
Speaker 10: that for you. So I think that's now like the

2050
02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:38,160
Speaker 10: big issue is that the US seems to be more

2051
02:05:38,160 --> 02:05:44,760
Speaker 10: supporting the Moscus these diplomatically than the SDF, although military

2052
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:47,480
Speaker 10: speaking that the support is still going on for the

2053
02:05:47,520 --> 02:05:52,280
Speaker 10: SDF until twenty twenty six in the last Pentagon budget

2054
02:05:52,280 --> 02:05:55,760
Speaker 10: which was not accepted yet they're still like millions of

2055
02:05:55,800 --> 02:05:58,680
Speaker 10: support for the SDF to maintain the prisons and this

2056
02:05:58,800 --> 02:05:59,400
Speaker 10: kind of stuff.

2057
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 11: I think it's it's it's a difficult sitution.

2058
02:06:03,000 --> 02:06:07,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, that these prisons like our whole and others right

2059
02:06:07,680 --> 02:06:11,200
Speaker 8: like they there, I guess kind of the only leverage

2060
02:06:11,240 --> 02:06:14,240
Speaker 8: the FDF has with the United States, where along with

2061
02:06:14,280 --> 02:06:19,760
Speaker 8: the continuing and somewhat increasing ISIS attacks, but that's still

2062
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:23,160
Speaker 8: much less of a threat to the US than it

2063
02:06:23,360 --> 02:06:25,880
Speaker 8: was ten years ago, say right, like it's it's much less,

2064
02:06:25,880 --> 02:06:26,760
Speaker 8: so a significant thing.

2065
02:06:27,440 --> 02:06:28,840
Speaker 5: So like what is the.

2066
02:06:29,080 --> 02:06:32,600
Speaker 8: Status of those prisons that currently they're still guided by

2067
02:06:32,600 --> 02:06:34,680
Speaker 8: the SDF right, but the people aren't familiar. Can you

2068
02:06:34,720 --> 02:06:39,840
Speaker 8: just explain what those prisons consist of and like who's

2069
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:41,080
Speaker 8: in there and who's guarding them.

2070
02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:47,040
Speaker 10: Well, so ISIS credit this jihadi state between twenty fourteen

2071
02:06:47,080 --> 02:06:50,920
Speaker 10: and twenty nineteen. But then the Kurdish that SDF they

2072
02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 10: basically took most of the areas under ISIS control. They

2073
02:06:54,640 --> 02:06:57,360
Speaker 10: defeated basically ISIS with the support of the US, so

2074
02:06:57,400 --> 02:07:01,160
Speaker 10: they lost the territory and the last basically was for

2075
02:07:01,240 --> 02:07:03,720
Speaker 10: a small town called Bahus and the resor.

2076
02:07:04,200 --> 02:07:06,560
Speaker 11: So you had all these ISIS families there.

2077
02:07:06,640 --> 02:07:09,760
Speaker 10: And also there were like several ISIS foreign members that

2078
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:13,280
Speaker 10: were captured, so you have the wives of ISIS fighters,

2079
02:07:13,360 --> 02:07:16,200
Speaker 10: and you also have ISIS fighters themselves that were captured

2080
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:19,360
Speaker 10: during these battles. So all these people they were brought

2081
02:07:19,400 --> 02:07:22,120
Speaker 10: to camps. So I was there in Syria many times.

2082
02:07:22,120 --> 02:07:25,160
Speaker 10: For instance, during the battle for Raka, which was used

2083
02:07:25,160 --> 02:07:27,960
Speaker 10: to be the capital of the ISIS Caliphate, they were

2084
02:07:28,000 --> 02:07:30,520
Speaker 10: like bringing the Isis families and women to a camp

2085
02:07:30,560 --> 02:07:33,440
Speaker 10: in I Knowisa, But after that they moved most of

2086
02:07:33,480 --> 02:07:35,880
Speaker 10: those people to actually move almost all of them to

2087
02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:40,320
Speaker 10: the Roche camp and all hold camp in northern Syria

2088
02:07:40,480 --> 02:07:45,000
Speaker 10: in the Hassaka province. And also that includes foreigners. You

2089
02:07:45,040 --> 02:07:50,560
Speaker 10: can imagine people from Uzbekistan, from Uihus, from China, people

2090
02:07:50,600 --> 02:07:55,480
Speaker 10: from Turkey, French people, European people, so it's full of

2091
02:07:55,600 --> 02:07:58,440
Speaker 10: a lot of different people. And then the majority are

2092
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:02,400
Speaker 10: actually Iraqis and Syrians. So the SCF they have this

2093
02:08:02,520 --> 02:08:05,720
Speaker 10: foul they a majority. Like a lot of people in

2094
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:08,240
Speaker 10: those camps, they have been repatriated or they have to

2095
02:08:08,280 --> 02:08:11,480
Speaker 10: return to their homes. So I think those camps like

2096
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:14,080
Speaker 10: a whole camp. Like the prison. It's not a prison,

2097
02:08:14,080 --> 02:08:16,440
Speaker 10: it's a camp. I think, like the number of people

2098
02:08:16,480 --> 02:08:18,720
Speaker 10: that are basically decreased almost fifty percent, but there are

2099
02:08:18,720 --> 02:08:21,280
Speaker 10: still a lot of people inside. But the prisons you

2100
02:08:21,320 --> 02:08:25,120
Speaker 10: have still all these Isis spiders that were in prison

2101
02:08:25,200 --> 02:08:27,440
Speaker 10: during the war, and a lot of them are foreigners,

2102
02:08:27,440 --> 02:08:31,760
Speaker 10: including Dutch, another country. You know, some countries they have

2103
02:08:31,800 --> 02:08:35,040
Speaker 10: returned there, they have returned their people there. So we

2104
02:08:35,160 --> 02:08:38,120
Speaker 10: have some people, you know America, they took back most

2105
02:08:38,120 --> 02:08:41,280
Speaker 10: of the families and the fighters, and they prosecute them

2106
02:08:41,280 --> 02:08:43,800
Speaker 10: in the US. But you also have countries that didn't

2107
02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:46,040
Speaker 10: bring back the fighters. For instance, they only brought back

2108
02:08:46,080 --> 02:08:50,120
Speaker 10: the woman. So that's the situation that all those people

2109
02:08:50,160 --> 02:08:52,520
Speaker 10: are still there. And it's actually what you mentioned. It's

2110
02:08:52,640 --> 02:08:55,040
Speaker 10: like one of the big reasons for support for the SDF,

2111
02:08:55,400 --> 02:08:57,360
Speaker 10: And it's also one of the reasons that the SDF

2112
02:08:57,480 --> 02:09:01,320
Speaker 10: is getting millions to keep those prisons in good shape

2113
02:09:01,320 --> 02:09:03,760
Speaker 10: because they have been also by isis to three those

2114
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:06,400
Speaker 10: prisoners from those prisons basically.

2115
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:10,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, in successful attempts in twenty twenty, twenty twenty two,

2116
02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:13,000
Speaker 8: I think it was when they had the last like

2117
02:09:13,160 --> 02:09:16,880
Speaker 8: major prison escape, which, yeah, it's a bad thing for

2118
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:20,640
Speaker 8: our world if if all those all those people get out,

2119
02:09:20,680 --> 02:09:25,080
Speaker 8: and like you say, lots of European nations, I think

2120
02:09:25,080 --> 02:09:27,800
Speaker 8: it's something that I wish Americans had paid more attention

2121
02:09:27,960 --> 02:09:31,400
Speaker 8: to because the thing that European nations have done, the

2122
02:09:31,480 --> 02:09:35,840
Speaker 8: United Kingdom being a paramount example, is like rendered some

2123
02:09:35,920 --> 02:09:40,520
Speaker 8: of those people stateless. Right that they've removed there in

2124
02:09:40,560 --> 02:09:43,880
Speaker 8: this case, Shmima Bagoum is probably the most well known example. Right,

2125
02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:46,280
Speaker 8: they've removed her British passport and now she doesn't have

2126
02:09:46,360 --> 02:09:49,400
Speaker 8: a state, she's stateless. It's something that the US has

2127
02:09:49,480 --> 02:09:53,520
Speaker 8: recently done to people living in the United States, and

2128
02:09:53,760 --> 02:09:56,640
Speaker 8: like it does feel something as if you know that

2129
02:09:56,680 --> 02:10:00,000
Speaker 8: the president has been established and now it's being carried

2130
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:04,640
Speaker 8: down and it's obviously deeply concerning to see it happening

2131
02:10:04,640 --> 02:10:08,120
Speaker 8: here after it happened there at which people had opposed

2132
02:10:08,160 --> 02:10:09,640
Speaker 8: it when it did well.

2133
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:12,840
Speaker 10: I mean the US in the US itself in Syria

2134
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:16,400
Speaker 10: was very a big advocate of bringing the people out.

2135
02:10:16,440 --> 02:10:18,480
Speaker 5: Yes, it was, Yeah, because it will make.

2136
02:10:18,320 --> 02:10:19,560
Speaker 7: It easier for them to withdraw.

2137
02:10:19,640 --> 02:10:22,200
Speaker 10: So they were actually pushing those countries that didn't want

2138
02:10:22,240 --> 02:10:25,400
Speaker 10: to bring back. There are nationals to basically bring them back,

2139
02:10:25,440 --> 02:10:28,400
Speaker 10: like Western countries, the UK and others. Yeah, but some

2140
02:10:28,480 --> 02:10:31,960
Speaker 10: of these countries were actually forced by court orders or others.

2141
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:33,960
Speaker 10: But a lot of these counties were actually quite reluctant

2142
02:10:34,000 --> 02:10:36,400
Speaker 10: to bring them back because they were afraid of like

2143
02:10:36,720 --> 02:10:39,040
Speaker 10: security risk and stuff, or that they will be released

2144
02:10:39,080 --> 02:10:43,200
Speaker 10: quite quickly and then they would again like be active

2145
02:10:43,400 --> 02:10:45,560
Speaker 10: and judist activities.

2146
02:10:45,760 --> 02:10:45,960
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2147
02:10:46,040 --> 02:10:48,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, so US was very very so.

2148
02:10:48,280 --> 02:10:51,040
Speaker 10: I remember that the US was even offering like members

2149
02:10:51,120 --> 02:10:54,520
Speaker 10: of this Coalition against ISIS, which was created in twenty fourteen.

2150
02:10:54,920 --> 02:10:57,120
Speaker 10: Likes you said, if you cannot bring them yourself, I

2151
02:10:57,120 --> 02:10:59,280
Speaker 10: mean we can. Our military can help you to bring

2152
02:10:59,320 --> 02:11:02,360
Speaker 10: those people out. If you think that you it's it's

2153
02:11:02,400 --> 02:11:04,800
Speaker 10: difficult for you to go to Syria and pick those

2154
02:11:05,120 --> 02:11:06,840
Speaker 10: nationals up from your accounts.

2155
02:11:07,240 --> 02:11:10,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, been pretty unsuccessful, like in a lot of

2156
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:12,240
Speaker 8: well in some European cases they have, but still yeah,

2157
02:11:12,280 --> 02:11:16,440
Speaker 8: lots of them utterly refusing to do it. I wonder

2158
02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:19,120
Speaker 8: then as we finish up here, right, like we spoke

2159
02:11:19,160 --> 02:11:23,760
Speaker 8: about this PKK disarmament, obviously it's a symbolic disarmament, right

2160
02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:25,720
Speaker 8: there is still I don't quite know how big the

2161
02:11:25,840 --> 02:11:28,560
Speaker 8: hPG is, but it's much bigger than thirty people. And

2162
02:11:28,600 --> 02:11:31,520
Speaker 8: then the weapons they laid down were like a very

2163
02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:36,360
Speaker 8: small percentage of their weapons. Were they just burning like kalashnikov?

2164
02:11:36,440 --> 02:11:38,720
Speaker 8: So did they burn like larger weapons too?

2165
02:11:39,520 --> 02:11:43,000
Speaker 10: No, it was just our personal COLASGIC calls basically, Okay,

2166
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:47,160
Speaker 10: So I mean it was also like more symbolic symbolic ceremony,

2167
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:48,600
Speaker 10: like we are willing to give up.

2168
02:11:48,720 --> 02:11:48,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2169
02:11:49,080 --> 02:11:51,360
Speaker 10: But the thing is that also it's still not clear

2170
02:11:51,400 --> 02:11:53,320
Speaker 10: what happened to those thirty people.

2171
02:11:53,480 --> 02:11:55,280
Speaker 11: Are they going to go back to Turkey.

2172
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:56,320
Speaker 5: That's what I wanted to ask.

2173
02:11:56,440 --> 02:11:58,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, are they going to stay in Iraqi Kurdistan and

2174
02:11:58,880 --> 02:12:01,800
Speaker 10: find the job there, because you have people like that

2175
02:12:01,800 --> 02:12:03,800
Speaker 10: in Iraqi curstand that used to be with the Pigger

2176
02:12:03,880 --> 02:12:06,480
Speaker 10: k and that now they work in I don't know,

2177
02:12:06,560 --> 02:12:09,560
Speaker 10: in media or construction sector or entertainment sector. You have

2178
02:12:09,640 --> 02:12:13,120
Speaker 10: people like that, but there's not much clarity on that.

2179
02:12:13,200 --> 02:12:16,400
Speaker 10: But I think also that's because they're waiting on Turkey

2180
02:12:16,480 --> 02:12:20,120
Speaker 10: to make possible constitutional steps, you know, to see what

2181
02:12:20,160 --> 02:12:22,560
Speaker 10: Turkey is going to do, because for instance, Turkey could

2182
02:12:22,560 --> 02:12:25,520
Speaker 10: offer an amnesty or these kind of things, then those

2183
02:12:25,520 --> 02:12:27,480
Speaker 10: people could return. And also some of them were saying

2184
02:12:27,520 --> 02:12:29,680
Speaker 10: like now it's the end of weapons, but we still

2185
02:12:29,720 --> 02:12:31,600
Speaker 10: want to be involved in politics.

2186
02:12:31,160 --> 02:12:32,720
Speaker 5: Right through the political party.

2187
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:35,760
Speaker 10: So it's also possible that those people want to go

2188
02:12:35,840 --> 02:12:38,480
Speaker 10: back to Turkey and basically take part in Kurdish politics

2189
02:12:39,240 --> 02:12:42,800
Speaker 10: or Turkish politics to be more truged in Turkey. So

2190
02:12:42,880 --> 02:12:44,760
Speaker 10: I think it's a little bit too early to say

2191
02:12:44,800 --> 02:12:48,000
Speaker 10: what happens with those people because I remember also if

2192
02:12:48,040 --> 02:12:50,240
Speaker 10: I very much corrected, they're also having peace process that

2193
02:12:50,280 --> 02:12:53,120
Speaker 10: basically people have given basically went to the border and

2194
02:12:53,160 --> 02:12:55,680
Speaker 10: give themselves up to Turkey. But that didn't happen now,

2195
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:58,080
Speaker 10: so it's a bit different than in the past. But

2196
02:12:58,120 --> 02:13:00,480
Speaker 10: it seems that the Turkish government was very happy with

2197
02:13:00,720 --> 02:13:01,959
Speaker 10: the ceremony.

2198
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:03,320
Speaker 7: They didn't complain about it.

2199
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:06,600
Speaker 5: So okay, yeah, yeah, I wondered what happened.

2200
02:13:06,600 --> 02:13:09,800
Speaker 8: So there's guerrillas or former guerrillas I suppose, who laid

2201
02:13:09,840 --> 02:13:12,240
Speaker 8: down their weapons at the end of the ceremony. They

2202
02:13:12,320 --> 02:13:16,120
Speaker 8: just kind of returned to the mountains or whatever. We

2203
02:13:16,160 --> 02:13:18,160
Speaker 8: don't know what will happen with them now.

2204
02:13:18,200 --> 02:13:21,480
Speaker 10: That's that's not clear to me because there are still

2205
02:13:21,480 --> 02:13:24,400
Speaker 10: some unanswered questions, like what you mentioned now, like what

2206
02:13:24,480 --> 02:13:27,080
Speaker 10: those thirty people did, Yeah, what those people are going

2207
02:13:27,160 --> 02:13:27,680
Speaker 10: to do now?

2208
02:13:27,880 --> 02:13:30,280
Speaker 8: So right, there's a lot of people, and it's a

2209
02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:34,240
Speaker 8: lot of people, some of whom have spent decades as

2210
02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:37,720
Speaker 8: cadra of the revolution, right that they have they haven't

2211
02:13:37,720 --> 02:13:40,280
Speaker 8: really known life outside of the revolution for a very

2212
02:13:40,320 --> 02:13:40,880
Speaker 8: long time.

2213
02:13:41,480 --> 02:13:43,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, so it's so a bit difficult for them to

2214
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:47,720
Speaker 10: return to civilian life because I mean, because that's they

2215
02:13:47,760 --> 02:13:49,920
Speaker 10: probably joined when they're quite young. And I think i's

2216
02:13:49,920 --> 02:13:52,120
Speaker 10: also the profiles of the people of those thirty people

2217
02:13:52,160 --> 02:13:54,040
Speaker 10: will burn their weapons. That a lot of them they

2218
02:13:54,120 --> 02:13:56,360
Speaker 10: joined in the nineties. Wow, so they have been in

2219
02:13:56,640 --> 02:14:00,000
Speaker 10: they have been in the mountains for a very long time. Yeah,

2220
02:14:00,200 --> 02:14:02,480
Speaker 10: I mean some of them were young, but there were

2221
02:14:02,520 --> 02:14:05,880
Speaker 10: also older people among them. But definitely it's going to

2222
02:14:05,920 --> 02:14:08,000
Speaker 10: be a question what will happen with those people, although

2223
02:14:08,480 --> 02:14:10,960
Speaker 10: I mean they were also talked that some leadership of

2224
02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:14,960
Speaker 10: the armed Pikak movement might go to Europe and get

2225
02:14:15,000 --> 02:14:17,800
Speaker 10: asylum there, yeah, instead.

2226
02:14:17,480 --> 02:14:18,520
Speaker 11: Of going back to Turkey.

2227
02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:19,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2228
02:14:19,560 --> 02:14:21,320
Speaker 10: You know, you have also a lot of courage the

2229
02:14:21,360 --> 02:14:25,040
Speaker 10: asport or organizations active there, so they could like basically

2230
02:14:25,200 --> 02:14:26,520
Speaker 10: embrace those people.

2231
02:14:27,040 --> 02:14:29,880
Speaker 5: But they're still listed as a foreign terrorist organization in

2232
02:14:29,920 --> 02:14:31,280
Speaker 5: most two Yeah exactly.

2233
02:14:31,400 --> 02:14:33,840
Speaker 10: I mean, for instance, they probably would want to have

2234
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:37,160
Speaker 10: something like what the Syrian president have now Ahmatoshada that

2235
02:14:37,240 --> 02:14:40,080
Speaker 10: he used to be rested as a sanctioned as a

2236
02:14:40,160 --> 02:14:42,960
Speaker 10: terrorist organization and then to have that removed. But I'm

2237
02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:45,320
Speaker 10: sure that that's not on the table anytime soon.

2238
02:14:45,360 --> 02:14:47,280
Speaker 7: But that happened with the HTS.

2239
02:14:47,280 --> 02:14:50,080
Speaker 10: But also it happened for instance musidin Hulk, an Ranian

2240
02:14:50,080 --> 02:14:53,760
Speaker 10: opposition group, they also got delisted. So it's technically as possible,

2241
02:14:54,480 --> 02:14:57,000
Speaker 10: but I think we are like in a very early

2242
02:14:57,080 --> 02:14:59,720
Speaker 10: stage of the peace process. So that's why I think

2243
02:14:59,760 --> 02:15:02,400
Speaker 10: it's to take time before we have more clarity and

2244
02:15:03,320 --> 02:15:06,160
Speaker 10: some of these answers that questions you ask, now, I

2245
02:15:06,160 --> 02:15:08,360
Speaker 10: mean most of the people that attended the ceremony didn't

2246
02:15:08,360 --> 02:15:10,000
Speaker 10: have an answer to that too, because there was not

2247
02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:12,880
Speaker 10: much clarity on that because it was just a ceremony.

2248
02:15:12,920 --> 02:15:15,600
Speaker 10: There was like a statement. Journals were not able to

2249
02:15:15,640 --> 02:15:17,800
Speaker 10: talk to most of the journalists. I mean there were

2250
02:15:18,040 --> 02:15:21,080
Speaker 10: there was like some statement in some Kurdish media, but

2251
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:23,120
Speaker 10: in general, like they were not able to talk to

2252
02:15:23,200 --> 02:15:25,400
Speaker 10: those fighters, like now, what are you going to do?

2253
02:15:25,440 --> 02:15:28,040
Speaker 10: There was not like access to those thirty people that

2254
02:15:28,080 --> 02:15:29,040
Speaker 10: burn their weapons.

2255
02:15:29,120 --> 02:15:30,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it.

2256
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:33,400
Speaker 10: Was like sort of quite very much controlled ceremony. It

2257
02:15:33,440 --> 02:15:36,440
Speaker 10: was very difficult to report on it, basically, which is

2258
02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:38,880
Speaker 10: very different from the previous preat process when it was

2259
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:41,080
Speaker 10: much more open. Yeah, but that time there was not

2260
02:15:41,200 --> 02:15:43,440
Speaker 10: like forty fighters giving up their weapons. They just had

2261
02:15:43,480 --> 02:15:45,920
Speaker 10: like sort of a press conferences what we're going to do,

2262
02:15:46,440 --> 02:15:49,000
Speaker 10: and that was very different than what happened now.

2263
02:15:49,360 --> 02:15:52,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, it gets it's because just to keep watching

2264
02:15:52,280 --> 02:15:56,320
Speaker 8: it's fascinating to watch it unfold like I was in

2265
02:15:56,760 --> 02:15:59,120
Speaker 8: Curdish Down a year and a half ago, and it

2266
02:15:59,160 --> 02:16:02,120
Speaker 8: is competit. See, the situation is completely different likewise in

2267
02:16:02,120 --> 02:16:04,800
Speaker 8: the whole of Syria. So yeah, it's fascinating to watch.

2268
02:16:04,880 --> 02:16:07,880
Speaker 8: I'm sure if people want to know more about it.

2269
02:16:07,960 --> 02:16:11,680
Speaker 8: You're very good at reporting on this. You often post

2270
02:16:11,760 --> 02:16:14,800
Speaker 8: on Twitter about the situation, and you write for a

2271
02:16:14,840 --> 02:16:17,600
Speaker 8: number of outlets, So how can people follow your work?

2272
02:16:18,160 --> 02:16:20,839
Speaker 10: Well, the best place to follow my workers on Twitter

2273
02:16:21,440 --> 02:16:26,160
Speaker 10: on its X because I'm quite active there, but also

2274
02:16:26,200 --> 02:16:30,000
Speaker 10: I write for places like Middle East I something thanks

2275
02:16:30,040 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 10: like watching the Institute New a Liance Institute. I also

2276
02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:37,000
Speaker 10: write for a Kurdish magazine called Kurtis Tank Chronicle, and

2277
02:16:37,080 --> 02:16:40,359
Speaker 10: also I pitched for other websites, so I'm quite active

2278
02:16:40,480 --> 02:16:45,080
Speaker 10: on different issues, but mostly focused on things related to Kurts,

2279
02:16:45,120 --> 02:16:47,560
Speaker 10: so mostly stuff related to Iran, Turkey, Syria.

2280
02:16:48,480 --> 02:16:51,080
Speaker 5: It's yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us.

2281
02:16:51,080 --> 02:16:52,800
Speaker 5: We really appreciate your insight.

2282
02:16:53,080 --> 02:17:12,080
Speaker 11: Jery, welcome, my friend.

2283
02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:20,160
Speaker 4: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

2284
02:17:20,200 --> 02:17:23,120
Speaker 4: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2285
02:17:23,120 --> 02:17:25,600
Speaker 4: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

2286
02:17:25,680 --> 02:17:29,760
Speaker 4: I'm joined by Mia Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans. Yes,

2287
02:17:29,920 --> 02:17:32,080
Speaker 4: this episode we are covering the week of July nine

2288
02:17:32,120 --> 02:17:35,520
Speaker 4: to July sixteen. What's going on, my boys and in

2289
02:17:35,560 --> 02:17:39,760
Speaker 4: some cases gals and in some cases days that were

2290
02:17:39,840 --> 02:17:40,600
Speaker 4: its or whatever?

2291
02:17:40,879 --> 02:17:43,280
Speaker 2: And the answer for everyone is ed.

2292
02:17:45,800 --> 02:17:52,400
Speaker 4: Hooray in some cases my gals. I guess let's start

2293
02:17:52,560 --> 02:17:55,439
Speaker 4: by talking about Jeffrey Epstein.

2294
02:17:55,879 --> 02:18:00,600
Speaker 2: That's what we always do, Jepstein. Yeah, you know what, Garrison,

2295
02:18:01,080 --> 02:18:03,720
Speaker 2: I hear You've got some bars to drop about Epstein.

2296
02:18:04,160 --> 02:18:08,560
Speaker 4: Jesus all right.

2297
02:18:08,440 --> 02:18:10,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's my work for the day.

2298
02:18:10,360 --> 02:18:16,800
Speaker 4: Brief brief summary. Previously on this show, we talked about

2299
02:18:16,800 --> 02:18:20,360
Speaker 4: how Patel and a Bungino, the head of the FBI,

2300
02:18:21,040 --> 02:18:23,880
Speaker 4: have previously come under fire from micro supporters for saying

2301
02:18:23,879 --> 02:18:27,360
Speaker 4: that Epstein really did kill himself. And this has kind

2302
02:18:27,360 --> 02:18:30,120
Speaker 4: of been bubbling in the base for a while because

2303
02:18:30,720 --> 02:18:33,000
Speaker 4: they used this as one of their main like campaign

2304
02:18:33,040 --> 02:18:35,560
Speaker 4: and podcast talking points for the past four years.

2305
02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bongino was a huge.

2306
02:18:38,640 --> 02:18:42,760
Speaker 4: Elstein, I mean, and like Patel's like the QAnon guy,

2307
02:18:42,959 --> 02:18:46,200
Speaker 4: like he's both these guys have have made their careers

2308
02:18:46,240 --> 02:18:49,200
Speaker 4: the past four years, like heavily about this topic. And

2309
02:18:49,240 --> 02:18:51,199
Speaker 4: now they are, you know, backtracking on a whole bunch

2310
02:18:51,240 --> 02:18:53,879
Speaker 4: of the previous you know claims or you know, just

2311
02:18:53,959 --> 02:18:56,680
Speaker 4: asking questions type stuff that they did the past few years.

2312
02:18:57,240 --> 02:19:00,119
Speaker 4: And like a week and a half ago, a memo

2313
02:19:00,200 --> 02:19:03,280
Speaker 4: from the Department of Justice announced that it was closing

2314
02:19:03,280 --> 02:19:06,039
Speaker 4: the investigation and claiming that there was no client list

2315
02:19:06,720 --> 02:19:11,920
Speaker 4: for Jeffrey Epstein, despite Pambondi herself boasting about having Epstein's

2316
02:19:11,920 --> 02:19:15,520
Speaker 4: client list on her desk only a few months ago.

2317
02:19:16,400 --> 02:19:19,680
Speaker 4: This caused a huge freakout in the MEGA world. There

2318
02:19:19,720 --> 02:19:24,160
Speaker 4: was conflicting reports that Bondi or Patel or Bungino might

2319
02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:28,959
Speaker 4: be resigning like in protest of this memo. A lot

2320
02:19:29,000 --> 02:19:32,879
Speaker 4: of like uncertainty over what was real. And then on

2321
02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:37,119
Speaker 4: July twelfth, Trump had to speak his own truth social

2322
02:19:38,000 --> 02:19:40,240
Speaker 4: okay quote, what's going on with my boys and in

2323
02:19:40,280 --> 02:19:44,199
Speaker 4: some cases gals. They're all going after Attorney General. Pambondi's

2324
02:19:44,200 --> 02:19:47,360
Speaker 4: doing a fantastic job. We're on one team Mega, and

2325
02:19:47,440 --> 02:19:50,199
Speaker 4: I don't like what's happening. We have a perfect administration,

2326
02:19:50,320 --> 02:19:52,920
Speaker 4: the talk of the world, and selfish people are trying

2327
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:55,600
Speaker 4: to hurt it all over a guy who never dies,

2328
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:59,960
Speaker 4: Jeffrey Epstein. For years, it's Epstein over and over again.

2329
02:20:00,120 --> 02:20:03,160
Speaker 4: Why are we giving publicity to files written by Obama,

2330
02:20:03,240 --> 02:20:06,560
Speaker 4: Crooked Hillary, Komy Brennan and the losers and criminals of

2331
02:20:06,560 --> 02:20:09,080
Speaker 4: the Biden administration who conned the world with the Russia

2332
02:20:09,120 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 4: RUSSA Russia hoax, fifty one intelligence agents, and the Laptop

2333
02:20:12,600 --> 02:20:16,120
Speaker 4: from Hell all caps. They created the Epstein files, just

2334
02:20:16,160 --> 02:20:19,640
Speaker 4: like they created the fake Hillary Clinton Christopher Steele dossier

2335
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:22,720
Speaker 4: that they used on me. And now my so called

2336
02:20:22,959 --> 02:20:28,040
Speaker 4: friends and quotes are playing right into their hands. So

2337
02:20:28,280 --> 02:20:31,039
Speaker 4: this was right after claiming that the Epstein files did

2338
02:20:31,080 --> 02:20:33,920
Speaker 4: not exist, that these things are not actually real, and

2339
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:36,400
Speaker 4: then Trump's talking about how they are real but they

2340
02:20:36,400 --> 02:20:40,200
Speaker 4: are in fact written by his enemies. Despite the most

2341
02:20:40,200 --> 02:20:44,720
Speaker 4: recent investigation into Jeffrey Epstein starting at twenty nineteen, when

2342
02:20:44,879 --> 02:20:47,800
Speaker 4: if you remember, Donald Trump was the president.

2343
02:20:47,520 --> 02:20:50,840
Speaker 8: Well Garson the defining political question of the modern areas

2344
02:20:50,879 --> 02:20:52,960
Speaker 8: who was president in twenty twenty, So I can see

2345
02:20:52,959 --> 02:20:53,640
Speaker 8: it moving back.

2346
02:20:55,000 --> 02:20:57,920
Speaker 2: There's no answer to this question, you know, We just can't.

2347
02:20:58,240 --> 02:21:00,600
Speaker 2: We don't know, we will never know. There's no way

2348
02:21:00,680 --> 02:21:03,320
Speaker 2: to prove it. Our records don't reach back that far.

2349
02:21:03,520 --> 02:21:06,880
Speaker 2: We just simply can't say who president was. The mists

2350
02:21:06,959 --> 02:21:10,160
Speaker 2: of time have shaded over so.

2351
02:21:10,240 --> 02:21:13,800
Speaker 4: Much of modern domestic politics is about confusion over who

2352
02:21:13,920 --> 02:21:17,640
Speaker 4: was president in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty when it

2353
02:21:17,680 --> 02:21:20,160
Speaker 4: was Donald Trump. He ends by saying, quote, let's not

2354
02:21:20,280 --> 02:21:24,400
Speaker 4: waste time and energy on Jeffrey Epstein, somebody nobody cares about.

2355
02:21:26,760 --> 02:21:31,040
Speaker 4: So funny, you could tell he's so far gone too.

2356
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:35,359
Speaker 4: He sounds scared because he never fully understood this stuff.

2357
02:21:35,840 --> 02:21:39,440
Speaker 4: Like there's things that he understands instinctually, and there's things

2358
02:21:39,480 --> 02:21:42,080
Speaker 4: that he never really got. And because he was Epstein's friend,

2359
02:21:42,440 --> 02:21:44,920
Speaker 4: he never really got why this was so central. He

2360
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:47,960
Speaker 4: kind of got that it was, but he also kind

2361
02:21:48,000 --> 02:21:50,039
Speaker 4: of assumed, like, well, if I tell everyone.

2362
02:21:49,720 --> 02:21:51,680
Speaker 2: To shut the fuck up, they will, They're gonna be

2363
02:21:51,840 --> 02:21:52,160
Speaker 2: look up.

2364
02:21:52,240 --> 02:21:55,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's how he's done things for

2365
02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:57,480
Speaker 4: the past like twelve years, and it's more often than

2366
02:21:57,520 --> 02:22:00,680
Speaker 4: not worked really well for him. But this has become

2367
02:22:00,720 --> 02:22:03,640
Speaker 4: such a load bearing aspect of like the maga self image,

2368
02:22:03,680 --> 02:22:05,160
Speaker 4: Like this is like, you know, this type of stuff

2369
02:22:05,200 --> 02:22:09,320
Speaker 4: is what druve QAnon essentially like a cult. He and

2370
02:22:09,400 --> 02:22:12,240
Speaker 4: he never fully understood why QAnon was really a thing.

2371
02:22:12,320 --> 02:22:14,000
Speaker 4: He never like truly grasped it.

2372
02:22:14,280 --> 02:22:18,320
Speaker 2: That's why he never really he started more recently doing

2373
02:22:18,360 --> 02:22:21,520
Speaker 2: some QAnon signposting, But yeah, he clearly never fully got

2374
02:22:21,760 --> 02:22:25,440
Speaker 2: why it was happening. Yeah, like it was convenient.

2375
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:27,800
Speaker 4: And now the monster that he and his you know,

2376
02:22:27,959 --> 02:22:31,480
Speaker 4: quote unquote friends have helped create all these years is

2377
02:22:31,520 --> 02:22:33,520
Speaker 4: starting to nibble on his own leg.

2378
02:22:33,800 --> 02:22:34,039
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2379
02:22:34,360 --> 02:22:38,080
Speaker 4: This past weekend, influencers like Tim Poole, Benny Johnson, and

2380
02:22:38,200 --> 02:22:41,760
Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk all started to kind of turn on Trump

2381
02:22:42,040 --> 02:22:45,520
Speaker 4: on a play a quick video from disgraced BuzzFeed writer

2382
02:22:45,680 --> 02:22:49,199
Speaker 4: Benny Johnson now right wing podcaster by.

2383
02:22:49,040 --> 02:22:54,160
Speaker 9: Admitting that the Epstein files are real and have been written,

2384
02:22:54,480 --> 02:22:56,880
Speaker 9: and that you've read them and you don't like their

2385
02:22:56,920 --> 02:23:00,760
Speaker 9: contents and they were written by your enemies. It doesn't

2386
02:23:00,800 --> 02:23:04,840
Speaker 9: make It doesn't make the most compelling case.

2387
02:23:07,120 --> 02:23:08,160
Speaker 7: As far as I'm concerned.

2388
02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:16,360
Speaker 5: Holy moly, holy moly, holy moly. You had to hear first.

2389
02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:20,000
Speaker 4: There was a lot of this stuff over the weekend,

2390
02:23:20,120 --> 02:23:22,959
Speaker 4: like this, this whole like podcasting Gohert, which which so

2391
02:23:23,000 --> 02:23:26,400
Speaker 4: many people, you know, credit to Trump's great success in

2392
02:23:26,440 --> 02:23:29,840
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four all started asking questions and we're kind

2393
02:23:29,879 --> 02:23:32,160
Speaker 4: of confused. I don't know why they would be. It's

2394
02:23:32,160 --> 02:23:35,000
Speaker 4: been very well documented that Trump was friends with Epstein

2395
02:23:35,040 --> 02:23:39,119
Speaker 4: for a long time. But this time this thing finally

2396
02:23:39,160 --> 02:23:40,040
Speaker 4: broke containment.

2397
02:23:40,160 --> 02:23:40,280
Speaker 7: Yea.

2398
02:23:40,440 --> 02:23:42,160
Speaker 4: And when you have like fucking.

2399
02:23:42,000 --> 02:23:44,920
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirks, someone who's basically like one of the GOP's

2400
02:23:45,000 --> 02:23:48,800
Speaker 12: like top narrative shepherds essentially, and when you have him

2401
02:23:48,840 --> 02:23:53,840
Speaker 12: like questioning the president's own story and credibility, that's like

2402
02:23:53,879 --> 02:23:55,920
Speaker 12: a pretty big shake up in the mega world.

2403
02:23:56,360 --> 02:23:56,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2404
02:23:56,680 --> 02:23:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not really explicable. There's no plausible deniability.

2405
02:24:00,040 --> 02:24:00,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2406
02:24:00,680 --> 02:24:02,560
Speaker 12: I think for a long time this has been like

2407
02:24:02,920 --> 02:24:07,320
Speaker 12: the load bearing cognitive dissonance for this entire movement. And

2408
02:24:07,520 --> 02:24:10,160
Speaker 12: I actually do think when Elon first was just like

2409
02:24:10,600 --> 02:24:13,120
Speaker 12: he's in the files, I think that was the first

2410
02:24:13,160 --> 02:24:15,640
Speaker 12: moment that all these people were suddenly allowed to do this.

2411
02:24:15,760 --> 02:24:17,600
Speaker 4: That was the first domino. Definitely.

2412
02:24:17,959 --> 02:24:20,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, he cracked the shut on it.

2413
02:24:20,440 --> 02:24:23,760
Speaker 12: And I think that has like torn open this rift

2414
02:24:24,120 --> 02:24:26,360
Speaker 12: that has allowed all of these people who previously their

2415
02:24:26,360 --> 02:24:31,480
Speaker 12: cognitivessonance has sustained them through a decade of like, yeah,

2416
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:35,480
Speaker 12: of our dear rulers obviously friends with the pedophile life.

2417
02:24:35,720 --> 02:24:38,839
Speaker 4: I'll say it, critical support even.

2418
02:24:43,000 --> 02:24:44,360
Speaker 12: Let them fight, Let them fight.

2419
02:24:45,000 --> 02:24:47,959
Speaker 4: So the next move that the geniuses of the Trump

2420
02:24:47,959 --> 02:24:51,240
Speaker 4: administration tried to pull to to settle things down was

2421
02:24:51,320 --> 02:24:56,440
Speaker 4: released the raw footage, the missing raw footage outside Jeffrey

2422
02:24:56,440 --> 02:24:59,360
Speaker 4: Epstein's sale, to finally finally close the book on this

2423
02:24:59,440 --> 02:25:02,879
Speaker 4: jeffre EPs didn't kill himself moment, and they released it,

2424
02:25:02,920 --> 02:25:05,920
Speaker 4: and everyone realized, you know what, They're right, there's nothing

2425
02:25:05,920 --> 02:25:07,760
Speaker 4: more to look into here. Case closed.

2426
02:25:08,040 --> 02:25:10,400
Speaker 2: You know, probably we all rose up as if with

2427
02:25:10,440 --> 02:25:14,000
Speaker 2: one voice to say, this doesn't seem suspicious.

2428
02:25:14,920 --> 02:25:19,200
Speaker 4: So Wired found that this quote unquote raw video was

2429
02:25:19,240 --> 02:25:22,960
Speaker 4: actually edited and had it nearly three minutes removed.

2430
02:25:23,720 --> 02:25:27,280
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but look it does, doesn't Jeffrey Epstein deserve

2431
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:29,840
Speaker 2: some privacy, you know, three minutes on his own.

2432
02:25:29,920 --> 02:25:32,520
Speaker 4: It was a really personal decision for somebody to take.

2433
02:25:32,600 --> 02:25:34,280
Speaker 2: And I yeah, exactly.

2434
02:25:35,600 --> 02:25:38,480
Speaker 4: So no, after claiming that like they've released this, this

2435
02:25:38,480 --> 02:25:41,600
Speaker 4: this completely, this is completely you know, ripped straight from

2436
02:25:41,959 --> 02:25:44,959
Speaker 4: the hard drive raw footage. Uh, it showed that it

2437
02:25:45,000 --> 02:25:48,879
Speaker 4: was edited in Adobe premiere and has these missing missing

2438
02:25:48,920 --> 02:25:52,680
Speaker 4: three minutes. Pam Bondi initially tried to say that there's

2439
02:25:52,760 --> 02:25:56,040
Speaker 4: usually a minute missing from footage because of a computer

2440
02:25:56,200 --> 02:25:59,320
Speaker 4: reset that happens every night at the same time, which

2441
02:25:59,400 --> 02:26:04,600
Speaker 4: was that immediate proven incorrect by the by there being

2442
02:26:04,920 --> 02:26:06,879
Speaker 4: way more than one minute missing.

2443
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, three minutes. I'm sorry. They're simply like, I came

2444
02:26:10,879 --> 02:26:13,080
Speaker 2: into this as like, I don't know what happened, you know,

2445
02:26:13,200 --> 02:26:14,840
Speaker 2: maybe he killed himself.

2446
02:26:14,879 --> 02:26:15,280
Speaker 4: Maybe, I.

2447
02:26:17,320 --> 02:26:20,400
Speaker 2: Mean, and now I'm now I'm I'm I am sincerely

2448
02:26:20,480 --> 02:26:24,480
Speaker 2: more on the well, something there's something there height say.

2449
02:26:24,560 --> 02:26:27,000
Speaker 12: I will say, there's one thing that I think this

2450
02:26:27,080 --> 02:26:29,960
Speaker 12: does definitively rule out, which is that it was definitely

2451
02:26:30,000 --> 02:26:35,440
Speaker 12: not the Clinton crime family. We've ruled out one possible.

2452
02:26:35,480 --> 02:26:37,760
Speaker 2: Now you see this, This brings me to a theory

2453
02:26:37,800 --> 02:26:40,000
Speaker 2: that I have been working on for the last couple

2454
02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:42,680
Speaker 2: of days, and I think this is this is really

2455
02:26:42,680 --> 02:26:46,200
Speaker 2: important to get out to people. So obviously, the other

2456
02:26:46,240 --> 02:26:48,680
Speaker 2: big statement that Donald Trump made in the last week

2457
02:26:48,840 --> 02:26:50,720
Speaker 2: was that his uncle, who used to be a professor

2458
02:26:50,760 --> 02:26:54,000
Speaker 2: at M I T, had taught Ted Kaczinsky and talked

2459
02:26:54,000 --> 02:26:56,240
Speaker 2: to him about Ted Kazinski and been like, yay, you know,

2460
02:26:56,280 --> 02:26:59,480
Speaker 2: there's a real thin line between genius and insanity. And

2461
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,200
Speaker 2: then it came out that Donald Trump's uncle, who Todd

2462
02:27:02,200 --> 02:27:04,280
Speaker 2: at MIT, died in nineteen and eighty five, and of

2463
02:27:04,320 --> 02:27:08,720
Speaker 2: course the unibomber was not publicly identified until nineteen ninety six. Now,

2464
02:27:08,760 --> 02:27:12,039
Speaker 2: some people have interpreted this as Donald Trump lying, which

2465
02:27:12,080 --> 02:27:14,880
Speaker 2: I think we can all agree doesn't seem like something

2466
02:27:14,920 --> 02:27:18,959
Speaker 2: he would do. So the only other explanation is that

2467
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:21,840
Speaker 2: Trump and his family knew who the unibomber was for

2468
02:27:21,879 --> 02:27:24,360
Speaker 2: more than a decade and kept it hidden from the

2469
02:27:24,400 --> 02:27:27,880
Speaker 2: rest of the United States. Now, what is the unibomber

2470
02:27:27,920 --> 02:27:31,800
Speaker 2: and Donald Chuck Trump have in common? Obviously two people

2471
02:27:31,800 --> 02:27:34,800
Speaker 2: who were treated very unfairly by the Clintons, right, I

2472
02:27:34,800 --> 02:27:37,520
Speaker 2: think we can all agree on that, you know, so

2473
02:27:38,120 --> 02:27:39,119
Speaker 2: it all ties together.

2474
02:27:39,400 --> 02:27:41,680
Speaker 4: Both are possibly victims of m k Ultra.

2475
02:27:42,000 --> 02:27:42,440
Speaker 5: That's right.

2476
02:27:43,160 --> 02:27:47,560
Speaker 4: No, his little Tuesday speech in Pittsburgh was quite bizarre.

2477
02:27:48,040 --> 02:27:51,279
Speaker 4: Not just that Kasinski never went to MIT.

2478
02:27:52,600 --> 02:27:54,360
Speaker 5: It's gonna say to my notedge, no, no, no.

2479
02:27:54,240 --> 02:27:58,320
Speaker 4: No, just did not go to the university that doctor

2480
02:27:58,440 --> 02:27:59,720
Speaker 4: John Trump was at.

2481
02:28:00,240 --> 02:28:02,240
Speaker 12: I will say this is the first one of these

2482
02:28:02,240 --> 02:28:05,080
Speaker 12: stories that this genuinely sounds like an Alex Jones story,

2483
02:28:05,120 --> 02:28:07,039
Speaker 12: Like this is the kind of story that Alex Jones

2484
02:28:07,080 --> 02:28:08,519
Speaker 12: tells about his uncles.

2485
02:28:08,200 --> 02:28:08,800
Speaker 4: All the time.

2486
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:11,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, they ain't. They ain't talking to Alex Jones right now.

2487
02:28:11,959 --> 02:28:12,640
Speaker 4: No, definitely.

2488
02:28:13,120 --> 02:28:15,960
Speaker 5: But it's like persona non grotra in the White House currently.

2489
02:28:17,120 --> 02:28:18,760
Speaker 4: It is a truly bizarre ramble.

2490
02:28:19,240 --> 02:28:21,039
Speaker 13: I have to take it off to brag just for

2491
02:28:21,080 --> 02:28:25,440
Speaker 13: a second, because when I first heard about AI, you know, it's.

2492
02:28:25,280 --> 02:28:28,520
Speaker 7: Not my thing. Although my uncle was at MIT, one

2493
02:28:28,560 --> 02:28:29,359
Speaker 7: of the great.

2494
02:28:29,080 --> 02:28:33,480
Speaker 13: Professors fifty one years whatever, who longest serving professor in the.

2495
02:28:33,400 --> 02:28:34,720
Speaker 7: History of MIT.

2496
02:28:34,959 --> 02:28:39,720
Speaker 13: Three degrees in nuclear chemical and math.

2497
02:28:40,280 --> 02:28:41,160
Speaker 7: It's a smart man.

2498
02:28:42,040 --> 02:28:43,680
Speaker 13: Kazinski was one of his students.

2499
02:28:43,680 --> 02:28:44,960
Speaker 3: Do you know who Kazinsky was?

2500
02:28:45,400 --> 02:28:48,759
Speaker 13: There's very little difference between a madman and a genius.

2501
02:28:49,120 --> 02:28:51,560
Speaker 7: But Kazinsk said, what kind of a student was he?

2502
02:28:51,680 --> 02:28:54,520
Speaker 7: Uncle John? Doctor John Trump? He said, what kind of

2503
02:28:54,520 --> 02:28:55,000
Speaker 7: a student?

2504
02:28:55,600 --> 02:28:55,880
Speaker 3: Man?

2505
02:28:55,879 --> 02:28:57,959
Speaker 7: He said, seriously? Good?

2506
02:28:58,360 --> 02:29:01,240
Speaker 13: He said, he'd correct You go around correcting everybody. But

2507
02:29:01,720 --> 02:29:04,520
Speaker 13: it didn't work out too well for him. Didn't work

2508
02:29:04,560 --> 02:29:05,199
Speaker 13: out too well.

2509
02:29:05,240 --> 02:29:06,600
Speaker 7: But it's interesting in life.

2510
02:29:07,720 --> 02:29:09,600
Speaker 4: Didn't work out too well for him.

2511
02:29:09,840 --> 02:29:14,760
Speaker 8: Shared didn't Christ To be fair, he never he never

2512
02:29:14,840 --> 02:29:15,800
Speaker 8: gives a first name.

2513
02:29:15,920 --> 02:29:18,040
Speaker 5: It could have been another, It could be a different

2514
02:29:18,040 --> 02:29:19,040
Speaker 5: good This is true.

2515
02:29:19,120 --> 02:29:19,480
Speaker 4: James.

2516
02:29:19,640 --> 02:29:24,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, people, I also god that whole thing, just

2517
02:29:24,920 --> 02:29:29,080
Speaker 5: the undergrady goes around correcting everyone cases.

2518
02:29:29,240 --> 02:29:29,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2519
02:29:30,560 --> 02:29:33,200
Speaker 4: But back to Epstein, the thing that Trump doesn't want

2520
02:29:33,280 --> 02:29:34,120
Speaker 4: us talking about.

2521
02:29:34,520 --> 02:29:34,960
Speaker 3: That's right.

2522
02:29:35,360 --> 02:29:40,520
Speaker 4: By Monday, some of this, like Influencer podcasting class, started

2523
02:29:40,560 --> 02:29:44,879
Speaker 4: to kind of close ranks. The skepticism and frustration that

2524
02:29:44,879 --> 02:29:48,800
Speaker 4: they expressed over the weekend subsided and they started to

2525
02:29:48,840 --> 02:29:52,160
Speaker 4: repeat the party line. Charlie Kirk said on his show,

2526
02:29:52,240 --> 02:29:55,480
Speaker 4: quote plenty was said this last weekend at our event

2527
02:29:55,800 --> 02:29:59,400
Speaker 4: about Epstein. Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein for the

2528
02:29:59,440 --> 02:30:02,760
Speaker 4: time being. I'm gonna trust my friends in the administration.

2529
02:30:03,000 --> 02:30:04,920
Speaker 4: I'm gonna trust my friends in the government to do

2530
02:30:04,959 --> 02:30:07,720
Speaker 4: what needs to be done, solve it balls in their hands.

2531
02:30:08,000 --> 02:30:10,520
Speaker 4: I've said plenty this last weekend. So if you guys

2532
02:30:10,560 --> 02:30:13,800
Speaker 4: want to see my commentary on it, that's fine. Everyone

2533
02:30:13,800 --> 02:30:17,080
Speaker 4: knows my opinion on the Epstein thing. The messaging of fumble.

2534
02:30:17,520 --> 02:30:20,280
Speaker 4: I would love to see the DOJ move to unseal

2535
02:30:20,360 --> 02:30:26,520
Speaker 4: the grand jury testimony unquote. The messaging fumble really the

2536
02:30:26,560 --> 02:30:29,440
Speaker 4: biggest problem with it. The biggest problem with Jeffrey Epstein

2537
02:30:29,440 --> 02:30:34,039
Speaker 4: has been the messaging fumble, not yeah, decades of horrific

2538
02:30:34,120 --> 02:30:36,640
Speaker 4: sex crimes tied to the president of the United States.

2539
02:30:37,040 --> 02:30:39,879
Speaker 12: Also, I love that he's trying to trust the plan

2540
02:30:40,000 --> 02:30:42,800
Speaker 12: people with Like the thing that trust the plan is

2541
02:30:42,920 --> 02:30:44,640
Speaker 12: about reviewing, this.

2542
02:30:44,640 --> 02:30:48,520
Speaker 5: Is about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just keep trusting it.

2543
02:30:48,720 --> 02:30:51,880
Speaker 8: I do want to say that, I because I hate myself.

2544
02:30:52,000 --> 02:30:56,119
Speaker 8: I listened to Sean Ryan's podcast interview with Gavin Newsom,

2545
02:30:56,840 --> 02:30:59,840
Speaker 8: which yeah, I don't suggest it is four hours if

2546
02:30:59,840 --> 02:31:03,160
Speaker 8: you wondering. So never get pissed off about our episodes

2547
02:31:03,200 --> 02:31:06,040
Speaker 8: going along again, please, lots of interesting stuff.

2548
02:31:06,440 --> 02:31:07,320
Speaker 5: Trump has lost.

2549
02:31:07,360 --> 02:31:09,760
Speaker 8: Sean ryant that he is not towing the line on

2550
02:31:09,800 --> 02:31:12,560
Speaker 8: this Epstein stuff. He's clearly pissed about it. And like

2551
02:31:13,320 --> 02:31:15,680
Speaker 8: Ryan is a sizable influence on the right. He has

2552
02:31:15,720 --> 02:31:19,000
Speaker 8: about five million YouTube subscribers right He's one of the

2553
02:31:19,000 --> 02:31:23,240
Speaker 8: top ten podcasts on Spotify. He's interviewed Trump on his

2554
02:31:23,320 --> 02:31:27,320
Speaker 8: pot like when Trump did his podcast offensive before the

2555
02:31:27,360 --> 02:31:29,560
Speaker 8: twenty twenty four election, Ryan was one of the places

2556
02:31:29,560 --> 02:31:34,000
Speaker 8: he went. And it seems like Ryan is not on

2557
02:31:34,040 --> 02:31:38,760
Speaker 8: the like RNC paid poster list because he seemed like

2558
02:31:39,280 --> 02:31:42,840
Speaker 8: more critical of Trump than Gavin Newsom was in that interview. Weirdly,

2559
02:31:42,959 --> 02:31:46,400
Speaker 8: and specifically about the Epstein stuff, which it was kind

2560
02:31:46,440 --> 02:31:48,240
Speaker 8: of remarkable to me, and I think like we should

2561
02:31:48,280 --> 02:31:50,680
Speaker 8: note that it's he has.

2562
02:31:50,560 --> 02:31:52,480
Speaker 5: A significant influence on a certain type of people.

2563
02:31:53,040 --> 02:31:55,640
Speaker 4: Someone who certainly does appear to be on the R

2564
02:31:55,720 --> 02:32:00,600
Speaker 4: and C paid list is documentary filmmaker Jesusa.

2565
02:32:01,320 --> 02:32:05,000
Speaker 14: I'm going to talk about the Epstein files, and I'm

2566
02:32:05,040 --> 02:32:10,480
Speaker 14: going to make the case that even though there are

2567
02:32:10,680 --> 02:32:16,160
Speaker 14: unanswered questions about Epstein, it is in fact time to

2568
02:32:16,200 --> 02:32:16,520
Speaker 14: move on.

2569
02:32:17,200 --> 02:32:20,359
Speaker 4: Very convincing.

2570
02:32:21,680 --> 02:32:24,680
Speaker 5: Exactly there's nobody with a firearm out of shot in

2571
02:32:24,720 --> 02:32:26,480
Speaker 5: that video, So I'm sure it's fine.

2572
02:32:26,879 --> 02:32:28,000
Speaker 4: Case closed.

2573
02:32:28,680 --> 02:32:30,520
Speaker 2: Yep seems good to me.

2574
02:32:31,040 --> 02:32:35,560
Speaker 4: In another move for transparency, on Tuesday, Republicans unanimously voted

2575
02:32:36,120 --> 02:32:41,440
Speaker 4: to block the release of the Epstein files. Betty Johnson

2576
02:32:41,520 --> 02:32:44,920
Speaker 4: interviewed Speaker of the House Mike Johnson about how they

2577
02:32:45,000 --> 02:32:48,040
Speaker 4: kind of want to handle this and they're trying to

2578
02:32:48,120 --> 02:32:50,440
Speaker 4: make this argument that they're that they want to be transparent,

2579
02:32:50,480 --> 02:32:52,640
Speaker 4: but they have to make sure that they protect protect

2580
02:32:52,680 --> 02:32:55,359
Speaker 4: the victims, and that's why they can't release the files.

2581
02:32:55,600 --> 02:33:00,680
Speaker 12: Sure, yeah, protect victims. Republican Party compelling telling stuff.

2582
02:33:01,160 --> 02:33:01,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2583
02:33:01,720 --> 02:33:03,640
Speaker 4: Part part of what makes this super weird is like

2584
02:33:03,720 --> 02:33:07,000
Speaker 4: Trump just keeps giving though just the most bizarre most

2585
02:33:07,160 --> 02:33:12,200
Speaker 4: like I'm totally not guilty comments in media, and something

2586
02:33:12,200 --> 02:33:14,480
Speaker 4: he said on Tuesday I found to be quite interesting,

2587
02:33:14,480 --> 02:33:16,640
Speaker 4: not because of what he actually said, but because of

2588
02:33:16,720 --> 02:33:18,840
Speaker 4: how he said it. See if see I see see

2589
02:33:18,879 --> 02:33:21,880
Speaker 4: if you can catch this specifically, think she'd tell you

2590
02:33:21,920 --> 02:33:24,160
Speaker 4: about all that your name up here up.

2591
02:33:24,160 --> 02:33:28,600
Speaker 6: By no, No, she's She's given us just a very

2592
02:33:28,680 --> 02:33:29,400
Speaker 6: quick briefing.

2593
02:33:29,959 --> 02:33:30,800
Speaker 7: And in terms of.

2594
02:33:30,760 --> 02:33:34,000
Speaker 6: The credibility of the different things that they've seen, and

2595
02:33:34,320 --> 02:33:36,760
Speaker 6: I would say that you know, these files were made

2596
02:33:36,800 --> 02:33:39,800
Speaker 6: up by Komi, they were made up by Obama, they

2597
02:33:39,800 --> 02:33:42,480
Speaker 6: were made up by the Biden from you know, uh

2598
02:33:42,760 --> 02:33:46,440
Speaker 6: we and we went through years of that with the Russia,

2599
02:33:46,800 --> 02:33:49,840
Speaker 6: Russia Russia hopes with all of the different things that

2600
02:33:49,879 --> 02:33:51,879
Speaker 6: we had to go through. We've gone through years of it.

2601
02:33:52,280 --> 02:33:54,119
Speaker 6: But she's handled it very well.

2602
02:33:54,160 --> 02:33:56,440
Speaker 4: And it's going to be very convincing stuff.

2603
02:33:56,600 --> 02:33:59,600
Speaker 8: You can see Caroline levit just like just like being

2604
02:33:59,600 --> 02:34:02,320
Speaker 8: it like right, say.

2605
02:34:02,240 --> 02:34:05,680
Speaker 4: First time I've heard Trump like stutter like this before.

2606
02:34:05,720 --> 02:34:09,280
Speaker 4: And like Trump's whole idea of reality is if you

2607
02:34:09,360 --> 02:34:12,000
Speaker 4: speak it enough that becomes true. You can literally bend

2608
02:34:12,480 --> 02:34:15,480
Speaker 4: like the concept of truth. You can bend reality using

2609
02:34:15,480 --> 02:34:17,240
Speaker 4: your words, and that This is why he, you know,

2610
02:34:17,360 --> 02:34:20,000
Speaker 4: talks about being a winner. This is why he only

2611
02:34:20,040 --> 02:34:22,440
Speaker 4: surrounds himself with people who are winners. Like he thinks

2612
02:34:22,480 --> 02:34:25,520
Speaker 4: that reality is this malleable thing that you affect through

2613
02:34:25,920 --> 02:34:29,760
Speaker 4: asserting your own will. And he's done this super successfully,

2614
02:34:30,240 --> 02:34:32,400
Speaker 4: especially throughout his career in politics. You know, he's a

2615
02:34:32,440 --> 02:34:35,320
Speaker 4: mixed record of it in his uh business business era,

2616
02:34:35,640 --> 02:34:38,680
Speaker 4: but certainly in his political uh but certainly through his

2617
02:34:38,680 --> 02:34:41,520
Speaker 4: political career, he's done this fairly well. This is why

2618
02:34:41,840 --> 02:34:44,279
Speaker 4: almost half the country believes that the last election was stolen,

2619
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:46,920
Speaker 4: just because he said it enough. Yeah, this is the

2620
02:34:46,959 --> 02:34:51,039
Speaker 4: first time I've heard him break while trying to speak

2621
02:34:51,120 --> 02:34:55,959
Speaker 4: reality into being like he literally could not get himself

2622
02:34:56,000 --> 02:35:00,080
Speaker 4: to do it cleanly, and and that is notable to me.

2623
02:35:00,080 --> 02:35:00,160
Speaker 7: Me.

2624
02:35:01,600 --> 02:35:04,400
Speaker 4: He's made a series of truths later that day, talking

2625
02:35:04,400 --> 02:35:08,560
Speaker 4: about how quote, my past supporters have bought into this

2626
02:35:08,640 --> 02:35:14,520
Speaker 4: bullshit hook line and sinker. Oh, very good. And he's

2627
02:35:14,840 --> 02:35:18,920
Speaker 4: now moved to call the Jeffrey Epstein story the Epstein hoax.

2628
02:35:19,360 --> 02:35:20,440
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

2629
02:35:21,200 --> 02:35:23,880
Speaker 4: He had an Oval Office press conference Wednesday morning. Quote

2630
02:35:24,000 --> 02:35:25,880
Speaker 4: I call it the Epstein hoax. They're talking about a

2631
02:35:25,920 --> 02:35:28,000
Speaker 4: guy who died three four years ago. And the sad

2632
02:35:28,040 --> 02:35:31,120
Speaker 4: part is is people are doing a democrat's work. They

2633
02:35:31,160 --> 02:35:32,160
Speaker 4: are stupid people.

2634
02:35:33,840 --> 02:35:35,760
Speaker 8: I don't think that's the sad part about what happened

2635
02:35:35,760 --> 02:35:38,400
Speaker 8: with Jeffrey Epstein. I think there are other sad things

2636
02:35:38,720 --> 02:35:39,840
Speaker 8: related to his conduct.

2637
02:35:40,120 --> 02:35:42,080
Speaker 5: A man is dead, you know.

2638
02:35:44,680 --> 02:35:49,000
Speaker 12: I think the thing that is like very alarming about

2639
02:35:49,000 --> 02:35:50,600
Speaker 12: this so that I think is very dangerous about this

2640
02:35:50,720 --> 02:35:53,960
Speaker 12: entire situation. A lot of this on the right has

2641
02:35:54,080 --> 02:35:57,680
Speaker 12: always been sort of motivated by anti semitism. Yeah, well,

2642
02:35:57,879 --> 02:36:02,480
Speaker 12: and I think we are going like we are already

2643
02:36:02,560 --> 02:36:03,440
Speaker 12: seeing some ship.

2644
02:36:03,680 --> 02:36:09,240
Speaker 4: It's funny you say that, Mia, Yeah, because another voice

2645
02:36:09,280 --> 02:36:12,200
Speaker 4: has joined the call to release the files. Oh God

2646
02:36:12,600 --> 02:36:18,039
Speaker 4: for Processively Street residents. Elmo made a series of I

2647
02:36:18,080 --> 02:36:22,200
Speaker 4: will say, shocking statements over the weekend, expressly good shocking.

2648
02:36:22,240 --> 02:36:25,119
Speaker 2: If you've been familiar with some of the court cases

2649
02:36:25,120 --> 02:36:27,119
Speaker 2: against Elmo over the last couple of years.

2650
02:36:27,000 --> 02:36:30,000
Speaker 4: I know Larry David attacked Elmore a few years ago,

2651
02:36:30,320 --> 02:36:34,920
Speaker 4: and he had probably coming as saying this for years

2652
02:36:35,040 --> 02:36:37,119
Speaker 4: as a Jewish man. I think he saw through Elmo

2653
02:36:37,240 --> 02:36:39,680
Speaker 4: stick and knew the anti semitism at the heart of

2654
02:36:39,680 --> 02:36:46,119
Speaker 4: Elbow that was being suppressed Nazi. But yeah, Elbow made

2655
02:36:46,160 --> 02:36:49,080
Speaker 4: some shocking tweets just you know, very similar to like

2656
02:36:49,080 --> 02:36:50,800
Speaker 4: what happened to Kanye a few years ago.

2657
02:36:51,640 --> 02:36:52,560
Speaker 11: Similar figures.

2658
02:36:52,640 --> 02:36:54,640
Speaker 2: You know, they they both kind of come out of

2659
02:36:55,120 --> 02:36:58,959
Speaker 2: the same chunks of like American hip hop culture.

2660
02:36:59,400 --> 02:36:59,880
Speaker 3: You know it.

2661
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:02,560
Speaker 2: It's not super surprising, and I think they were both

2662
02:37:02,560 --> 02:37:05,600
Speaker 2: close for along, like a number of years before either

2663
02:37:05,680 --> 02:37:06,640
Speaker 2: man's career blew up.

2664
02:37:08,320 --> 02:37:11,039
Speaker 4: But yes, very andy simitic statements, also calling for the

2665
02:37:11,080 --> 02:37:12,720
Speaker 4: release of the Epstein files.

2666
02:37:13,000 --> 02:37:13,120
Speaker 12: Ye.

2667
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:16,720
Speaker 4: Elmo has since backtracked, hired a PR team, it seems,

2668
02:37:16,720 --> 02:37:19,400
Speaker 4: has scrubbed the tweets, handling the backclash a little bit

2669
02:37:19,400 --> 02:37:21,880
Speaker 4: better than Kanye did. But still, it's going to be

2670
02:37:21,879 --> 02:37:24,840
Speaker 4: hard to look past this as Elmo attempts to, you know,

2671
02:37:24,920 --> 02:37:26,720
Speaker 4: continue Almo's career.

2672
02:37:26,560 --> 02:37:29,320
Speaker 2: Especially since Elmo is now running for president with Nick

2673
02:37:29,360 --> 02:37:31,400
Speaker 2: Fuintes as campaign manager.

2674
02:37:31,520 --> 02:37:31,920
Speaker 7: You know, just.

2675
02:37:31,920 --> 02:37:36,000
Speaker 2: At that just an inadvisable Yeah, yeah, that is that

2676
02:37:36,080 --> 02:37:39,640
Speaker 2: is upsetting. He's quote swears it's not a Nazi thing. Uh,

2677
02:37:39,920 --> 02:37:41,880
Speaker 2: but yeah, a lot a lot of debate about that.

2678
02:37:43,240 --> 02:37:45,720
Speaker 4: I will will reach out to Bernernie for comment.

2679
02:37:47,000 --> 02:37:49,720
Speaker 5: There's a whole bunch of applies to Elbow's tweet, quoting

2680
02:37:49,720 --> 02:37:52,959
Speaker 5: for Elmo to resign if Elbow is a a real

2681
02:37:53,040 --> 02:37:58,520
Speaker 5: person and he genuinely believes and ship, Yeah, I'm gonna

2682
02:37:58,560 --> 02:38:01,560
Speaker 5: quote one. It's just too good. Resign. You posted the

2683
02:38:01,560 --> 02:38:04,520
Speaker 5: most viole hate speech since the latest Tucker Carlson podcasts,

2684
02:38:04,840 --> 02:38:07,440
Speaker 5: saying what you did about Jews is Nazi star rhetoric

2685
02:38:07,480 --> 02:38:09,040
Speaker 5: and you should be out of a job at the

2686
02:38:09,160 --> 02:38:09,640
Speaker 5: very East.

2687
02:38:09,959 --> 02:38:13,760
Speaker 2: Fire Elmo, Yeah, yeah.

2688
02:38:13,000 --> 02:38:15,560
Speaker 4: Hashtag fire Elma, everybody, yeah, get it, get it.

2689
02:38:15,600 --> 02:38:19,720
Speaker 12: Trending in Jenny Wine all seriousness, though, I think it

2690
02:38:19,800 --> 02:38:22,200
Speaker 12: is really alarming that a lot of the like on

2691
02:38:22,240 --> 02:38:23,720
Speaker 12: the right the way that like a lot of this

2692
02:38:23,840 --> 02:38:27,800
Speaker 12: resistance is crystallizing the Trump over this is just the like, oh,

2693
02:38:27,959 --> 02:38:30,959
Speaker 12: they're like, this is like Epstein was a massad agent.

2694
02:38:31,080 --> 02:38:33,280
Speaker 12: Trump is a massage engine. Yeah right, it's all just

2695
02:38:33,320 --> 02:38:34,480
Speaker 12: pure it's puired desemptism.

2696
02:38:34,560 --> 02:38:38,840
Speaker 4: The Jews are blackmailing US politicians with you know, child porn,

2697
02:38:38,920 --> 02:38:39,640
Speaker 4: and yeah, and.

2698
02:38:40,000 --> 02:38:42,480
Speaker 12: And and I think I think there's there's two angles

2699
02:38:42,480 --> 02:38:45,000
Speaker 12: on this one. In the very short term, it's obviously

2700
02:38:45,080 --> 02:38:49,320
Speaker 12: very good that Trump is losing support. However, Comma, if

2701
02:38:49,440 --> 02:38:51,600
Speaker 12: if and when we defeat Trump, we are going to

2702
02:38:51,640 --> 02:38:54,360
Speaker 12: have to pivot and smash these people so fucking hard

2703
02:38:54,720 --> 02:38:59,760
Speaker 12: that they never reappear again, because this could get really,

2704
02:39:00,320 --> 02:39:03,760
Speaker 12: really fucking bad very quickly. And I don't I don't think,

2705
02:39:03,959 --> 02:39:06,920
Speaker 12: I don't know. We've covered this on the show, right,

2706
02:39:06,959 --> 02:39:10,080
Speaker 12: We're like all discourse by anti Semitism has been turned

2707
02:39:10,080 --> 02:39:13,640
Speaker 12: into yelling at like mcdonnie for something he didn't say.

2708
02:39:14,040 --> 02:39:16,520
Speaker 12: And then meanwhile, like the elmal account is being hacked

2709
02:39:16,560 --> 02:39:20,720
Speaker 12: by like just literally a guy saying kill all Jews alcies,

2710
02:39:21,000 --> 02:39:24,200
Speaker 12: And that's just like a bubbling, massive undercurrents of the

2711
02:39:24,360 --> 02:39:27,400
Speaker 12: US now in politics that is going to have a

2712
02:39:27,400 --> 02:39:30,000
Speaker 12: bunch of profound impacts that we fucking don't understand yet

2713
02:39:30,040 --> 02:39:32,960
Speaker 12: and we have to deal with eventually.

2714
02:39:33,720 --> 02:39:34,199
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2715
02:39:34,360 --> 02:39:39,400
Speaker 2: No, this is the unfortunate reality, is that anti Semitism

2716
02:39:39,520 --> 02:39:42,760
Speaker 2: is turning into a block that could potentially swing an

2717
02:39:42,800 --> 02:39:45,039
Speaker 2: election one way or the other. And it's not a

2718
02:39:45,080 --> 02:39:48,160
Speaker 2: block that's necessarily locked into left or right. It's left

2719
02:39:48,160 --> 02:39:52,120
Speaker 2: into whoever's going to play to those delusions, you know. Yeah,

2720
02:39:52,160 --> 02:39:54,320
Speaker 2: And the fact that we're as deep in the weeds

2721
02:39:54,320 --> 02:39:57,120
Speaker 2: as we are right now with a right wing fascist

2722
02:39:57,200 --> 02:39:59,320
Speaker 2: movement does not mean that there could not be a

2723
02:39:59,440 --> 02:40:02,840
Speaker 2: left wing a oratarian movement that clings to anti Semitism

2724
02:40:02,879 --> 02:40:05,160
Speaker 2: as a way to gain power. It's happened in the

2725
02:40:05,200 --> 02:40:09,039
Speaker 2: world before. It's it's not something the left is immune from.

2726
02:40:09,200 --> 02:40:11,959
Speaker 2: It's not it's obviously not my the top of my

2727
02:40:12,040 --> 02:40:14,480
Speaker 2: threat model, right like, this isn't I don't I would

2728
02:40:14,520 --> 02:40:17,200
Speaker 2: not say this is the thing to focus on, but

2729
02:40:17,240 --> 02:40:19,800
Speaker 2: it's something again that to be aware of. Is that

2730
02:40:19,879 --> 02:40:23,920
Speaker 2: like the fact that this you get I think what

2731
02:40:24,000 --> 02:40:25,440
Speaker 2: you need to keep in mind when you're trying to

2732
02:40:25,640 --> 02:40:28,440
Speaker 2: parse out the future, think of how weird it is

2733
02:40:29,040 --> 02:40:31,200
Speaker 2: that some of the figures who wound up aligned with

2734
02:40:31,280 --> 02:40:33,600
Speaker 2: Trump are aligned with Trump right now. How a lot

2735
02:40:33,680 --> 02:40:35,879
Speaker 2: of folks who you would have during like the Bushy years,

2736
02:40:35,920 --> 02:40:38,200
Speaker 2: like the W's years, you would have put on the

2737
02:40:38,280 --> 02:40:41,160
Speaker 2: left or at least as like kind of contra to

2738
02:40:41,200 --> 02:40:45,040
Speaker 2: the Christian right, and who have now completely like dove

2739
02:40:45,160 --> 02:40:48,360
Speaker 2: into that side of things. And in some way even

2740
02:40:48,440 --> 02:40:53,080
Speaker 2: RFK can shift that rapidly again, and it will one way.

2741
02:40:53,240 --> 02:40:56,360
Speaker 2: In some ways, right like, there are ways in which

2742
02:40:56,400 --> 02:40:58,879
Speaker 2: this is inevitable, and that's why you need to be

2743
02:40:58,920 --> 02:41:00,879
Speaker 2: on the lookout about stuff like this. You have to

2744
02:41:00,920 --> 02:41:02,279
Speaker 2: keep your head on a fucking swibble.

2745
02:41:03,080 --> 02:41:05,600
Speaker 4: Let's go on and ad break and then return to

2746
02:41:05,640 --> 02:41:07,120
Speaker 4: talk about more news.

2747
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:24,280
Speaker 5: That's right, all right, we are back, and now we're

2748
02:41:24,280 --> 02:41:27,080
Speaker 5: going to talk about immigration, a topic which is always

2749
02:41:27,320 --> 02:41:32,880
Speaker 5: fun and only good things happen. So to begin with today,

2750
02:41:33,000 --> 02:41:37,119
Speaker 5: we're recording. On the sixteenth, the Trump administration has begun

2751
02:41:37,240 --> 02:41:42,400
Speaker 5: renditioning people to Swatinis christ a Twatini, small landlocked country

2752
02:41:42,440 --> 02:41:45,800
Speaker 5: in Africa. People are not familiar Africa's last absolute monarchy.

2753
02:41:46,520 --> 02:41:49,840
Speaker 5: This follows their rendition of eight people to South Sudan.

2754
02:41:50,120 --> 02:41:52,680
Speaker 5: The South Sudanese press is reporting that those men are

2755
02:41:52,720 --> 02:41:56,240
Speaker 5: in prison in South Sudan, which contradicts Tom Homan's statement

2756
02:41:56,280 --> 02:41:59,520
Speaker 5: to political that quote, when we sign these agreements with

2757
02:41:59,560 --> 02:42:02,120
Speaker 5: all these cones, we make arrangements to make sure these

2758
02:42:02,120 --> 02:42:05,920
Speaker 5: countries are receiving these people. And there's opportunities for these people.

2759
02:42:06,480 --> 02:42:08,840
Speaker 8: But I can't tell. If we remove somebody to Sudan,

2760
02:42:09,120 --> 02:42:10,640
Speaker 8: they could stay there a week and leave.

2761
02:42:10,879 --> 02:42:13,600
Speaker 5: I don't know. Homan has said and other atlets that

2762
02:42:13,640 --> 02:42:16,160
Speaker 5: he believed they were just kind of free in South Sudan,

2763
02:42:16,240 --> 02:42:20,040
Speaker 5: that they were just like released to wander around. That

2764
02:42:20,160 --> 02:42:23,840
Speaker 5: does not seem to be the case. Jesus the Eswortini people.

2765
02:42:23,959 --> 02:42:26,800
Speaker 8: Tricia McLaughlin, who's a I think a deputy sector of

2766
02:42:26,840 --> 02:42:31,080
Speaker 8: Homeland Security, called the people sent to Swortini quote uniquely barbaric.

2767
02:42:31,480 --> 02:42:33,920
Speaker 5: Oh boy, yeah yeah.

2768
02:42:34,120 --> 02:42:39,160
Speaker 8: She used a thread on x dot com everything you

2769
02:42:39,160 --> 02:42:42,000
Speaker 8: can find all kinds of stuff on there fare that way.

2770
02:42:42,200 --> 02:42:45,640
Speaker 8: She did not name the men in her thread, but

2771
02:42:45,720 --> 02:42:48,840
Speaker 8: she did list their convictions. Most of these were sex crimes,

2772
02:42:48,959 --> 02:42:53,959
Speaker 8: having children and various types of murder, homicide, manslaughter. This

2773
02:42:54,040 --> 02:42:57,680
Speaker 8: has caused widespread concern in Eswatini, right, the idea that

2774
02:42:58,000 --> 02:43:00,600
Speaker 8: the US is just sending random people who convicted of

2775
02:43:00,640 --> 02:43:04,520
Speaker 8: crimes s were Tini. In a statement, the government said, quote,

2776
02:43:04,680 --> 02:43:07,760
Speaker 8: five inmates are currently housed in our correctional facilities, in

2777
02:43:07,800 --> 02:43:11,520
Speaker 8: isolated units where similar offenders are kept. The nation is

2778
02:43:11,560 --> 02:43:14,680
Speaker 8: assured that these inmates posed no threat to the country

2779
02:43:14,760 --> 02:43:19,640
Speaker 8: or its citizens. The statement, given by government spokesman Fabeli

2780
02:43:19,800 --> 02:43:24,120
Speaker 8: Mudluli went on quote, this exercise is a result of

2781
02:43:24,200 --> 02:43:28,040
Speaker 8: months of robust, high level engagements among the United States government.

2782
02:43:28,400 --> 02:43:31,600
Speaker 8: The two governments will collaborate with the International Organization for

2783
02:43:31,680 --> 02:43:34,400
Speaker 8: Migration to facilitate the transit of these inmates to their

2784
02:43:34,440 --> 02:43:38,560
Speaker 8: countries of origin. So this seems to suggest that a

2785
02:43:38,879 --> 02:43:41,400
Speaker 8: this has been planned for months, which is not a

2786
02:43:41,440 --> 02:43:45,640
Speaker 8: particular surprise, right the US government has clearly been pushing

2787
02:43:45,640 --> 02:43:49,039
Speaker 8: for these like third country renditions for a while, but

2788
02:43:49,160 --> 02:43:52,640
Speaker 8: also that like this is a potential end run around

2789
02:43:52,680 --> 02:43:56,320
Speaker 8: things like the Convention against Torture withholding of removal right

2790
02:43:56,400 --> 02:44:00,320
Speaker 8: like either people whose governments won't accept them back from

2791
02:44:00,320 --> 02:44:04,320
Speaker 8: the US or people who have withholding of removal because

2792
02:44:04,400 --> 02:44:07,760
Speaker 8: they have a reasonable fear of being tortured or of

2793
02:44:07,840 --> 02:44:09,520
Speaker 8: harm coming to them that they're sent back to the

2794
02:44:09,600 --> 02:44:12,480
Speaker 8: countries of origin. I guess going to be sent back

2795
02:44:12,680 --> 02:44:16,200
Speaker 8: via Swortini is what it seems like. So this is

2796
02:44:16,440 --> 02:44:20,120
Speaker 8: pretty troubling. It seems to suggest that essentially that's what

2797
02:44:20,280 --> 02:44:22,760
Speaker 8: the US is doing. We're not quite clear how much

2798
02:44:22,800 --> 02:44:25,400
Speaker 8: the US has paid Swortini. Yet they paid one hundred

2799
02:44:25,480 --> 02:44:28,640
Speaker 8: thousand for one person to be sent to a ruwander.

2800
02:44:28,680 --> 02:44:32,039
Speaker 8: We still don't know where that person is. We don't

2801
02:44:32,080 --> 02:44:34,840
Speaker 8: know exactly how much they paid to South Sudan. They

2802
02:44:35,000 --> 02:44:38,959
Speaker 8: have requested a number of other countries, lots of them

2803
02:44:39,200 --> 02:44:43,560
Speaker 8: in West Africa, to accept people via this rendition process.

2804
02:44:43,560 --> 02:44:45,360
Speaker 8: We're going to talk about it on a whole episode

2805
02:44:45,400 --> 02:44:48,320
Speaker 8: that we have coming out next Tuesday, if you're interested

2806
02:44:48,320 --> 02:44:52,360
Speaker 8: to hear more about that. Another piece of legislation that

2807
02:44:52,360 --> 02:44:54,080
Speaker 8: I wanted to cover just because I've seen it getting

2808
02:44:54,080 --> 02:44:55,800
Speaker 8: a lot of attension and I think it kind of

2809
02:44:56,240 --> 02:44:59,600
Speaker 8: bears mentioning. A bi part of that group of legislators

2810
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:04,280
Speaker 8: produce legislation to fundamentally reform the immigration system. It's called

2811
02:45:04,320 --> 02:45:07,480
Speaker 8: the Dignity or Dignidad Act, and it has about as

2812
02:45:07,560 --> 02:45:10,560
Speaker 8: much chances of success as a chocolate teapot. It's co

2813
02:45:10,680 --> 02:45:15,800
Speaker 8: sponsored by Republican Maria Salazar, She's from Florida, and Democrat

2814
02:45:15,959 --> 02:45:20,160
Speaker 8: Veronica Escobar from El Paso, Texas. Salazar, in an interview

2815
02:45:20,200 --> 02:45:23,440
Speaker 8: today with News Nations said, quote, there is no other

2816
02:45:23,520 --> 02:45:25,800
Speaker 8: president like Trump. I have faith that he could be

2817
02:45:25,840 --> 02:45:29,760
Speaker 8: for immigration what Lincoln was for slavery and Reagan was

2818
02:45:29,800 --> 02:45:33,439
Speaker 8: for communism. Just watch him, Jesus Christ.

2819
02:45:34,040 --> 02:45:34,440
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2820
02:45:34,680 --> 02:45:38,360
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess one could make some ar against

2821
02:45:38,360 --> 02:45:41,040
Speaker 5: about like some of the abolitionists just wanting to send

2822
02:45:41,120 --> 02:45:43,600
Speaker 5: folks off back to Africa, right, But I don't think

2823
02:45:43,600 --> 02:45:45,840
Speaker 5: that that's what most people understand to be Lincoln's legacy

2824
02:45:45,840 --> 02:45:46,400
Speaker 5: for slavery.

2825
02:45:46,520 --> 02:45:49,760
Speaker 12: I mean, he could definitely be like Reagan. Yeah, yeah,

2826
02:45:50,040 --> 02:45:50,960
Speaker 12: give her that one.

2827
02:45:51,480 --> 02:45:51,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2828
02:45:52,040 --> 02:45:54,080
Speaker 8: The big problem with this pizza legislation, which Salazar has

2829
02:45:54,120 --> 02:45:56,840
Speaker 8: tried to introduce before, right, just tried it twenty twenty

2830
02:45:56,840 --> 02:45:58,680
Speaker 8: three as well, is that it relies on people coming

2831
02:45:58,720 --> 02:46:00,560
Speaker 8: forward to a bit they have no legal status and

2832
02:46:00,600 --> 02:46:03,920
Speaker 8: being offered a quote dignity status, which is somewhat analogous

2833
02:46:03,920 --> 02:46:07,920
Speaker 8: to permanent residency, but without a pathway citizenship, it creates

2834
02:46:07,959 --> 02:46:12,400
Speaker 8: a permanent underclass. It relies on people trusting immigration authorities,

2835
02:46:12,400 --> 02:46:15,880
Speaker 8: and that's not going to happen now. There is no

2836
02:46:16,040 --> 02:46:19,199
Speaker 8: way in hell that people are going to come forward

2837
02:46:19,240 --> 02:46:21,600
Speaker 8: and say, yes, I'm undocumented after what we've seen for

2838
02:46:21,640 --> 02:46:24,240
Speaker 8: the last six months, right, Like people didn't trust the

2839
02:46:24,320 --> 02:46:28,000
Speaker 8: authorities before, but after what we've seen in the last

2840
02:46:28,520 --> 02:46:30,959
Speaker 8: six months.

2841
02:46:29,959 --> 02:46:32,800
Speaker 5: It's completely imploys. Why it's ludicrous.

2842
02:46:32,959 --> 02:46:34,879
Speaker 4: They don't want people coming forward with that stuff. That's

2843
02:46:35,040 --> 02:46:36,800
Speaker 4: the whole point of scaring them away, is to make

2844
02:46:36,840 --> 02:46:39,119
Speaker 4: them basically not able to function in this country.

2845
02:46:39,280 --> 02:46:43,200
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly. They don't want to give people safe status.

2846
02:46:42,720 --> 02:46:46,120
Speaker 4: Like make living in this country like as impossible as possible.

2847
02:46:46,560 --> 02:46:50,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, they have undermined the trust that allows them to

2848
02:46:50,080 --> 02:46:52,000
Speaker 8: do what is supposed to be the core of their job,

2849
02:46:52,640 --> 02:46:55,200
Speaker 8: just to get deportation numbers up, to get detention at

2850
02:46:55,200 --> 02:46:55,520
Speaker 8: the up.

2851
02:46:56,080 --> 02:46:58,800
Speaker 5: This is just a fluffer thing. It's people in the

2852
02:46:58,800 --> 02:47:02,000
Speaker 5: House of Representatives trying to boost their reelection chances by

2853
02:47:02,040 --> 02:47:05,400
Speaker 5: saying that they tried to do something different. Right, It's

2854
02:47:05,400 --> 02:47:07,640
Speaker 5: not seriously going to succeed, no way.

2855
02:47:08,280 --> 02:47:13,240
Speaker 8: Finally, a Canadian judge has halted the deportation of a

2856
02:47:13,240 --> 02:47:16,800
Speaker 8: non binary person back to the USA, citing conditions here.

2857
02:47:17,520 --> 02:47:21,360
Speaker 8: Quoting here, the officer failed to consider recent evidence of

2858
02:47:21,400 --> 02:47:25,080
Speaker 8: the conditions that may have supported a reasonable fear of persecution,

2859
02:47:25,280 --> 02:47:28,400
Speaker 8: said to Judge Julie blackhowk thirst Indigenous women appointed to

2860
02:47:28,440 --> 02:47:33,320
Speaker 8: a Canadian federal court. It seems that Angel Djenkle entered

2861
02:47:33,360 --> 02:47:36,400
Speaker 8: Canada as a visitor and that they're now engaged to

2862
02:47:36,480 --> 02:47:40,440
Speaker 8: a Canadian person. I'm guessing that they overstayed there. Their

2863
02:47:40,520 --> 02:47:42,520
Speaker 8: visitors slash toories that you probably can get a visa

2864
02:47:42,560 --> 02:47:45,160
Speaker 8: waiver of your US it's in down to Canada, and

2865
02:47:45,320 --> 02:47:49,440
Speaker 8: they probably overstayed that they requested a risk assessment before

2866
02:47:49,440 --> 02:47:52,080
Speaker 8: being deported to the USA, and the ruling suggests that

2867
02:47:52,120 --> 02:47:55,560
Speaker 8: the immigration official who conducted it had used outdated information

2868
02:47:55,600 --> 02:47:59,199
Speaker 8: and regarding the safety of LGBTQIA people in the USA.

2869
02:47:59,320 --> 02:48:02,360
Speaker 8: So yeah, that's where things things are at now. I'm

2870
02:48:02,400 --> 02:48:05,360
Speaker 8: aware of people also trans and non binary people from

2871
02:48:05,360 --> 02:48:08,520
Speaker 8: the US seeking asylum in Mexico lately.

2872
02:48:09,280 --> 02:48:11,480
Speaker 5: You know, it was a.

2873
02:48:11,480 --> 02:48:14,760
Speaker 8: Year ago that trans people were coming here to be safe,

2874
02:48:14,959 --> 02:48:17,320
Speaker 8: and now people are moving in the other direction, which

2875
02:48:17,360 --> 02:48:21,680
Speaker 8: is pretty damning combination of how things have gone in

2876
02:48:21,680 --> 02:48:25,720
Speaker 8: this country. Yeah, that's all the exciting fun immigration news

2877
02:48:25,760 --> 02:48:29,960
Speaker 8: I have this week. That really sucks.

2878
02:48:31,920 --> 02:48:32,840
Speaker 5: It sucks.

2879
02:48:33,800 --> 02:48:39,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess. One small update tangentially related. A judge

2880
02:48:39,840 --> 02:48:44,280
Speaker 4: in New Hampshire blocked Trump's order on birthright citizenship while

2881
02:48:44,320 --> 02:48:48,440
Speaker 4: side stepping the Supreme Court's ruling against nationwide injunctions by

2882
02:48:48,920 --> 02:48:53,400
Speaker 4: adding all children born on US soil to a certified

2883
02:48:53,560 --> 02:48:56,680
Speaker 4: nationwide class. So it's just now a massive class.

2884
02:48:56,680 --> 02:48:57,000
Speaker 5: Actual.

2885
02:48:57,160 --> 02:49:01,640
Speaker 4: Yes, this has had to go in effect on July seventeenth.

2886
02:49:01,800 --> 02:49:03,720
Speaker 4: We're according this on the sixteenth. We'll see if the

2887
02:49:03,720 --> 02:49:07,560
Speaker 4: government responds. And July seventeenth is just ten days before

2888
02:49:07,680 --> 02:49:10,800
Speaker 4: the partial implementation date of Trump's executive order.

2889
02:49:11,520 --> 02:49:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wanted to start this by noting that

2890
02:49:14,480 --> 02:49:17,400
Speaker 2: a fan reached out to us on Blue Sky recently

2891
02:49:17,440 --> 02:49:20,840
Speaker 2: with a clip from a quote by Omar Sharif, founder

2892
02:49:20,920 --> 02:49:24,080
Speaker 2: and president of Inflation Insights, who wrote in a note

2893
02:49:24,120 --> 02:49:27,640
Speaker 2: to clients, today's report showed that tariffs are beginning to bite,

2894
02:49:28,160 --> 02:49:32,480
Speaker 2: and yeah, this is this is we finally come beautifully

2895
02:49:32,520 --> 02:49:36,000
Speaker 2: back from Tarif. Don't like it. To Sharif, don't like it.

2896
02:49:35,800 --> 02:49:40,760
Speaker 2: It's beautiful, you know, it's like poetry. It rhymes. Anyway,

2897
02:49:40,840 --> 02:49:47,480
Speaker 2: here's here's the song, locking Jazz.

2898
02:49:47,240 --> 02:49:49,320
Speaker 5: Bomb, Locking Jazz good.

2899
02:49:49,520 --> 02:49:56,480
Speaker 15: Sorry, Locking Jazz Rocking jazz.

2900
02:49:56,600 --> 02:49:58,680
Speaker 3: Bob do.

2901
02:49:58,760 --> 02:50:01,480
Speaker 4: I want to know what in Flat Insights does.

2902
02:50:02,240 --> 02:50:05,000
Speaker 2: It's again that they post clips of Huey Dewey and

2903
02:50:05,080 --> 02:50:08,759
Speaker 2: Louis inflation fetish videos from the decktails.

2904
02:50:08,360 --> 02:50:12,200
Speaker 4: Kids working class that should be a unionized position. I

2905
02:50:12,560 --> 02:50:14,600
Speaker 4: hope that they're able to weather the tariffs.

2906
02:50:14,600 --> 02:50:17,000
Speaker 2: But what do you think the a fl cio is about?

2907
02:50:17,280 --> 02:50:19,640
Speaker 5: One of those word just flation the fl.

2908
02:50:20,720 --> 02:50:23,920
Speaker 12: In my time, I deeply remember the first time I

2909
02:50:23,959 --> 02:50:26,360
Speaker 12: ever talked about inflation on the show. It could happen

2910
02:50:26,400 --> 02:50:30,039
Speaker 12: here because this happened, and I deeply remember that episode

2911
02:50:30,240 --> 02:50:34,000
Speaker 12: because we are going back through that fucking episode today.

2912
02:50:34,360 --> 02:50:39,400
Speaker 12: At the moments I heard, I just started getting like

2913
02:50:40,080 --> 02:50:41,920
Speaker 12: fucking war flashbacks.

2914
02:50:43,360 --> 02:50:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, imagine how bad those flashbacks would be if you

2915
02:50:46,000 --> 02:50:49,600
Speaker 2: had seen ducktails inflation fetish for as a kid.

2916
02:50:50,920 --> 02:50:55,360
Speaker 5: I afford until adul. What I have seen is this article.

2917
02:50:55,680 --> 02:50:59,000
Speaker 5: Inflation insights dot Com has a fantastic article called what

2918
02:50:59,040 --> 02:51:02,400
Speaker 5: the Great Mayonnaise Inflation Mystery can tell us about prices.

2919
02:51:02,480 --> 02:51:03,760
Speaker 5: I'm learning a lot here.

2920
02:51:03,760 --> 02:51:06,080
Speaker 4: Okay, Mia, Can we talk about tariffs now?

2921
02:51:06,160 --> 02:51:06,480
Speaker 7: Okay?

2922
02:51:06,600 --> 02:51:11,320
Speaker 12: Actual tariffs? So we have new tariffs. Indonesia apparently has

2923
02:51:11,360 --> 02:51:16,520
Speaker 12: agreed to a tariff deal with the US in which

2924
02:51:16,560 --> 02:51:20,360
Speaker 12: the US imposes a nineteen percent tariff on Indonesia and

2925
02:51:20,520 --> 02:51:24,480
Speaker 12: Indonesia doesn't impose one back. Percynn Trump posted on true

2926
02:51:24,560 --> 02:51:27,879
Speaker 12: social quote that Indonesia is buying fifteen billion dollars in

2927
02:51:27,879 --> 02:51:31,160
Speaker 12: the US energy, five point four billion dollars in American

2928
02:51:31,240 --> 02:51:34,080
Speaker 12: agricultural products, and fifty Boeing jets, many of them seven

2929
02:51:34,200 --> 02:51:38,920
Speaker 12: seventy sevens. Fucking rip Indonesia, Good luck with those planes.

2930
02:51:40,280 --> 02:51:45,760
Speaker 12: Oh no, So, the Indonesian government was complaining to the

2931
02:51:45,840 --> 02:51:48,640
Speaker 12: press about how much of a shit show negotiating this was.

2932
02:51:49,320 --> 02:51:54,040
Speaker 12: We'll see if it holds. We also got news that

2933
02:51:54,240 --> 02:51:58,520
Speaker 12: Trump as Trump has announced that he's going to basically

2934
02:51:58,560 --> 02:52:00,520
Speaker 12: send a tariff letter to like a one hundred and

2935
02:52:00,520 --> 02:52:05,039
Speaker 12: fifty countries setting their rate simultaneously. But he hasn't done

2936
02:52:05,040 --> 02:52:05,360
Speaker 12: it yet.

2937
02:52:05,400 --> 02:52:05,760
Speaker 7: I don't know.

2938
02:52:05,800 --> 02:52:07,680
Speaker 12: It's possible. By the time this goes out, we'll have that,

2939
02:52:07,760 --> 02:52:09,920
Speaker 12: we'll have the actual number on it. Who knows what's

2940
02:52:09,920 --> 02:52:12,960
Speaker 12: going on with that? Is that the August third tariffs?

2941
02:52:13,000 --> 02:52:15,960
Speaker 12: Maybe it's also unclear when they're going to come into effect,

2942
02:52:16,320 --> 02:52:20,400
Speaker 12: Like it's all excellent, it's a catastrophe. Who knows this?

2943
02:52:20,400 --> 02:52:22,920
Speaker 12: This policy is just fucking Calvin Baal. They're just making

2944
02:52:22,959 --> 02:52:25,680
Speaker 12: it up as they go right now. There has also

2945
02:52:25,720 --> 02:52:28,480
Speaker 12: been very very funny news in our story from last

2946
02:52:28,520 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 12: week about Trump's tariff demand on Brazil to try to

2947
02:52:33,000 --> 02:52:35,440
Speaker 12: get them to release Bulsonaro, which is that.

2948
02:52:35,840 --> 02:52:41,240
Speaker 16: This has this has backfired spectacularly. He has like saved

2949
02:52:41,320 --> 02:52:46,040
Speaker 16: Lula's flagging approval rating. It has created a massive, a

2950
02:52:46,400 --> 02:52:52,560
Speaker 16: massive anti Bilsonaro pro Lula Brazilian nationalist backlatch of a

2951
02:52:52,640 --> 02:52:56,640
Speaker 16: kind that I really haven't seen since. Like Dilma Russeph

2952
02:52:56,680 --> 02:52:58,640
Speaker 16: had to deal with the fact that the NSA was

2953
02:52:58,640 --> 02:52:59,600
Speaker 16: spying on her phone.

2954
02:53:00,320 --> 02:53:03,600
Speaker 12: It's very, very funny. Bolsonaro is being accused by like

2955
02:53:03,720 --> 02:53:08,000
Speaker 12: but by Brazilian conservatives of being and I quote, a

2956
02:53:08,080 --> 02:53:12,000
Speaker 12: phony nationalist who is just like a dog of the US.

2957
02:53:13,320 --> 02:53:16,600
Speaker 8: It's amazing Trump's done this incredible pink wave across the world.

2958
02:53:17,760 --> 02:53:20,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's studying. Kid might save Lula too.

2959
02:53:21,520 --> 02:53:24,480
Speaker 12: The funniest part of this is that, like Bolsonaro looks

2960
02:53:24,480 --> 02:53:26,840
Speaker 12: at this, it is like, oh fuck, my entire base

2961
02:53:26,920 --> 02:53:29,120
Speaker 12: is turning on me because I'm so clearly like a

2962
02:53:29,160 --> 02:53:33,519
Speaker 12: dog of the Americans. And so he turned around like denounced,

2963
02:53:33,680 --> 02:53:37,600
Speaker 12: like the terrace is like, it's like an American employ

2964
02:53:38,120 --> 02:53:43,520
Speaker 12: it's Brazil that is outstanding. There is now one thing

2965
02:53:43,879 --> 02:53:47,800
Speaker 12: that both Lula and Bolsonaro agree on other than cop

2966
02:53:47,840 --> 02:53:51,600
Speaker 12: should kill more people, which is that these tariffs are bad.

2967
02:53:51,640 --> 02:53:55,400
Speaker 12: He has united all of Brazil. It is absolutely hilarious.

2968
02:53:56,160 --> 02:53:56,360
Speaker 11: You know.

2969
02:53:56,440 --> 02:53:58,600
Speaker 4: I try to set up a similar deal with America's

2970
02:53:58,600 --> 02:54:02,920
Speaker 4: own critically hospitalized man, Stephen Crowder, and it did not

2971
02:54:03,040 --> 02:54:06,119
Speaker 4: work out the same way the way this Bolsonnaro deal went.

2972
02:54:06,680 --> 02:54:08,800
Speaker 4: And some people say it's a little bit mean to

2973
02:54:08,879 --> 02:54:12,200
Speaker 4: negotiate with someone who just constantly keeps going into the

2974
02:54:12,240 --> 02:54:15,520
Speaker 4: hospital for bizarre chest surgeries to make him look more masculine.

2975
02:54:15,800 --> 02:54:18,880
Speaker 4: But hey, you know, podcasting is a competitive industry, and

2976
02:54:18,959 --> 02:54:21,440
Speaker 4: we tried to create a similar trade deal with with

2977
02:54:21,520 --> 02:54:24,360
Speaker 4: Crowder and it has not worked out. He apparently had

2978
02:54:24,400 --> 02:54:28,520
Speaker 4: some similar problems with The Daily Wire, so that's why

2979
02:54:28,520 --> 02:54:31,200
Speaker 4: you haven't seen much of him on the shows lately.

2980
02:54:31,760 --> 02:54:34,959
Speaker 12: Great Incredible. I love that Garrison somehow has become the

2981
02:54:34,959 --> 02:54:37,879
Speaker 12: person doing unilateral trade deals for the podcast Great Stuff.

2982
02:54:37,920 --> 02:54:42,160
Speaker 4: Great Stuff only with people who are constantly in the hospital,

2983
02:54:42,240 --> 02:54:47,320
Speaker 4: either through shitting problems or chest masculinization problems. Okay, so

2984
02:54:47,520 --> 02:54:50,560
Speaker 4: it's it's really just Stephen Crowder and Bolsonnaro.

2985
02:54:51,200 --> 02:54:52,560
Speaker 5: I think there are probably sme other people who are

2986
02:54:52,560 --> 02:54:54,680
Speaker 5: in the hospital for shitting problems. If we throw then

2987
02:54:54,720 --> 02:54:55,720
Speaker 5: that that white.

2988
02:54:55,800 --> 02:54:59,160
Speaker 4: Not as much as Bolsonnaro is. Chaps, that's true.

2989
02:54:59,240 --> 02:55:02,240
Speaker 5: Boscenarios in my hospitalized Man on the planet.

2990
02:55:02,480 --> 02:55:04,840
Speaker 4: Well second only to Stephen Crowder.

2991
02:55:05,440 --> 02:55:08,199
Speaker 5: Maybe they hang out there, they might get along, maybe

2992
02:55:08,240 --> 02:55:10,879
Speaker 5: they can need some boys time. Maybe maybe they won't

2993
02:55:11,000 --> 02:55:13,160
Speaker 5: get Maybe they hang out in the man cave at

2994
02:55:13,200 --> 02:55:13,760
Speaker 5: the hospital.

2995
02:55:14,120 --> 02:55:19,039
Speaker 12: Crowder has been advocating this for years. Jesus Christ okay, okay.

2996
02:55:19,200 --> 02:55:23,480
Speaker 12: So the final piece of news is actually what Robert

2997
02:55:23,520 --> 02:55:25,879
Speaker 12: started this on, which is that we have gotten our

2998
02:55:25,920 --> 02:55:31,160
Speaker 12: first sign of actual inflation increases from these tariffs. Inflation

2999
02:55:31,600 --> 02:55:34,560
Speaker 12: increase to two point seven percent in June, which is

3000
02:55:34,600 --> 02:55:37,760
Speaker 12: still well below the eight percent peaks in the early

3001
02:55:37,800 --> 02:55:40,960
Speaker 12: twenty twenties, but it is rising. It's also worth doing.

3002
02:55:41,000 --> 02:55:44,080
Speaker 12: This increase has been asymmetric. I'm gonna quote from the

3003
02:55:44,080 --> 02:55:47,520
Speaker 12: Financial Times here. Quote June's inflation rise was fueled in

3004
02:55:47,560 --> 02:55:52,080
Speaker 12: part by higher food prices, but offset by weaker commodity prices. Now,

3005
02:55:52,200 --> 02:55:56,720
Speaker 12: there's two important things here, right. One, food prices like

3006
02:55:57,120 --> 02:56:00,160
Speaker 12: matter significantly more for how pissed off everyone is than

3007
02:56:00,200 --> 02:56:04,760
Speaker 12: commodity prices do. And secondly, at the beginning of August,

3008
02:56:04,760 --> 02:56:07,960
Speaker 12: Trump is trying to impose a fifty terri funk copper.

3009
02:56:08,560 --> 02:56:11,920
Speaker 12: So those commodity prices, Oh boy.

3010
02:56:11,920 --> 02:56:16,480
Speaker 5: Get the copper stuppers ready, folks, I started stockpiling your

3011
02:56:16,480 --> 02:56:17,160
Speaker 5: wire now.

3012
02:56:17,920 --> 02:56:20,280
Speaker 12: So the other thing that I think is really we're

3013
02:56:20,280 --> 02:56:23,920
Speaker 12: discussing about this is the reason there hasn't been more inflation.

3014
02:56:23,959 --> 02:56:27,640
Speaker 12: And this has been something that we've kind of proposed

3015
02:56:27,680 --> 02:56:29,400
Speaker 12: as a mechanism on the show for what can happen,

3016
02:56:29,440 --> 02:56:35,959
Speaker 12: at least temporarily is that the for right now, largely

3017
02:56:35,959 --> 02:56:39,440
Speaker 12: what's been happening is that companies, often directly under pressure

3018
02:56:39,480 --> 02:56:42,480
Speaker 12: from Trump, have been just eating the costs of the tariffs.

3019
02:56:43,200 --> 02:56:46,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean basically Donald's doing what they call off gassing.

3020
02:56:46,520 --> 02:56:49,600
Speaker 4: And that's Donald, both as in Duck and as in Trump.

3021
02:56:49,800 --> 02:56:50,840
Speaker 12: Jesus Christ, is.

3022
02:56:50,800 --> 02:56:52,000
Speaker 5: That one of the things that can get you in

3023
02:56:52,040 --> 02:56:55,120
Speaker 5: hospital with Stephen Krawdin's bulsinara.

3024
02:56:55,200 --> 02:56:57,600
Speaker 4: You know, James, that's a great guess.

3025
02:56:58,600 --> 02:57:02,560
Speaker 16: So as I did go the first time, I discovered

3026
02:57:02,600 --> 02:57:04,960
Speaker 16: that my coworkers, if I ever talked about inflation, would

3027
02:57:04,959 --> 02:57:08,720
Speaker 16: only talk about Donald Duck inflation.

3028
02:57:09,160 --> 02:57:10,320
Speaker 2: And Lowie inflation.

3029
02:57:10,480 --> 02:57:10,720
Speaker 7: Born.

3030
02:57:10,800 --> 02:57:14,160
Speaker 12: Thank you very sorry, So yes I am, but my

3031
02:57:14,240 --> 02:57:19,400
Speaker 12: ducks are not in a row. So the very important

3032
02:57:19,400 --> 02:57:24,879
Speaker 12: part about this, though is these tariffs. The very stificant

3033
02:57:24,920 --> 02:57:27,520
Speaker 12: element of this is how pricing is actually set.

3034
02:57:28,040 --> 02:57:28,280
Speaker 7: Right.

3035
02:57:29,040 --> 02:57:31,600
Speaker 12: The general way that you are taught in econ one

3036
02:57:31,640 --> 02:57:34,440
Speaker 12: on one that prices are set is prices supply and demand.

3037
02:57:34,879 --> 02:57:37,320
Speaker 12: And so from this you would think that the way

3038
02:57:37,360 --> 02:57:39,760
Speaker 12: pricing works as people draw a supply intomandcraft and then

3039
02:57:39,840 --> 02:57:41,760
Speaker 12: you like put it there. That's not how any of

3040
02:57:41,800 --> 02:57:45,080
Speaker 12: the ship works. The way prices are actually set are

3041
02:57:45,120 --> 02:57:48,240
Speaker 12: specifically by pricing agents at each point in a supply

3042
02:57:48,320 --> 02:57:51,080
Speaker 12: chain down the supply chain. Right, so, every firm involved

3043
02:57:51,080 --> 02:57:53,520
Speaker 12: in the production of a thing moving the thing, each

3044
02:57:53,560 --> 02:57:55,760
Speaker 12: one sets a price that they're selling to the next

3045
02:57:55,760 --> 02:57:58,520
Speaker 12: person who's selling to the next person. Each person adds

3046
02:57:58,560 --> 02:58:02,320
Speaker 12: on their costs plus markup, and that's what a price is. Now.

3047
02:58:02,560 --> 02:58:06,480
Speaker 12: The reason prices tend not to move higher unustor's an

3048
02:58:06,480 --> 02:58:09,200
Speaker 12: excuse to do it, is that consumers get pissed off

3049
02:58:09,200 --> 02:58:12,120
Speaker 12: when prices rise, even if they technically would be willing

3050
02:58:12,120 --> 02:58:15,640
Speaker 12: to pay higher things. It damages your brand. Right now,

3051
02:58:15,760 --> 02:58:17,680
Speaker 12: what we've been seeing again is that the effects of

3052
02:58:17,680 --> 02:58:19,800
Speaker 12: the inflation have been mitigated about the fact these countries

3053
02:58:19,840 --> 02:58:22,840
Speaker 12: are just eating shit, and instead of raising their prices

3054
02:58:22,879 --> 02:58:24,600
Speaker 12: to eat the cost that they've been doing, they've been

3055
02:58:24,640 --> 02:58:27,600
Speaker 12: eating parts of their markup, which is like basically their

3056
02:58:27,640 --> 02:58:29,640
Speaker 12: pure profit right. They've been eating parts of their markup

3057
02:58:29,640 --> 02:58:31,640
Speaker 12: in order to not have the prices raise. This is

3058
02:58:31,680 --> 02:58:35,080
Speaker 12: not sustainable. This is especially not sustainable as war countries

3059
02:58:35,080 --> 02:58:38,280
Speaker 12: get tariffs, and as Trump's ability to pressure these companies weakens,

3060
02:58:38,320 --> 02:58:41,080
Speaker 12: as like you know, food prices continue to increase and

3061
02:58:41,120 --> 02:58:44,120
Speaker 12: people start getting more pissed at him. So this is

3062
02:58:44,440 --> 02:58:46,920
Speaker 12: just the beginning of this. All of these tariffs are

3063
02:58:46,959 --> 02:58:49,280
Speaker 12: maximumly set up to make sure that we get another

3064
02:58:49,480 --> 02:58:53,560
Speaker 12: run of this supply chain inflation. Our friends over at

3065
02:58:53,560 --> 02:58:55,800
Speaker 12: Strange Matter wrote a very long piece about this a

3066
02:58:55,800 --> 02:58:57,560
Speaker 12: couple of years. We've talked about the show a few times.

3067
02:58:57,560 --> 02:58:59,880
Speaker 12: We're going to link that in the description. You sho

3068
02:59:00,080 --> 02:59:01,640
Speaker 12: go read it. But that's an important thing that we've

3069
02:59:01,640 --> 02:59:04,480
Speaker 12: gotten from from the Bureau Labor Satistics data.

3070
02:59:04,800 --> 02:59:07,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not really sure how Trump's gonna duck this

3071
02:59:07,920 --> 02:59:09,640
Speaker 4: responsibility for much longer.

3072
02:59:09,800 --> 02:59:13,920
Speaker 12: I will say, I will say there is genuinely starting

3073
02:59:13,959 --> 02:59:17,160
Speaker 12: to be concerned that they're just straight up fudging the

3074
02:59:17,440 --> 02:59:21,880
Speaker 12: BLS statistics. And like, I don't know if they're doing that,

3075
02:59:21,959 --> 02:59:24,120
Speaker 12: but like I've seen like a bunch of bond people

3076
02:59:24,240 --> 02:59:26,480
Speaker 12: be like, are they just lying about the unemployment numbers?

3077
02:59:26,959 --> 02:59:29,320
Speaker 12: And who knows?

3078
02:59:30,000 --> 02:59:32,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, they would be very hard to prove that, right.

3079
02:59:32,000 --> 02:59:35,560
Speaker 4: Like, Yeah, I mean, and I've seen how much cash

3080
02:59:35,560 --> 02:59:38,640
Speaker 4: Scrooge has in that vault. So some people, the upper

3081
02:59:38,640 --> 02:59:41,120
Speaker 4: class will not be affected as much as the working

3082
02:59:41,120 --> 02:59:41,800
Speaker 4: class ducks.

3083
02:59:42,080 --> 02:59:44,959
Speaker 8: It's not saying the price of diving boards, for instance,

3084
02:59:45,000 --> 02:59:47,200
Speaker 8: could go up the very price sensitive because they need

3085
02:59:47,240 --> 02:59:49,480
Speaker 8: those diving boats to dive into that pause of cash.

3086
02:59:49,560 --> 02:59:51,480
Speaker 4: I have two more updates that I would like to

3087
02:59:51,480 --> 02:59:56,480
Speaker 4: do before we go to add Rake. For one, that

3088
02:59:56,520 --> 02:59:58,880
Speaker 4: the Trump administration has sued the state of California over

3089
02:59:58,959 --> 03:00:03,080
Speaker 4: Title nine violations for having trends athletes. This shows that

3090
03:00:03,160 --> 03:00:06,039
Speaker 4: even when you capitulate, like Gavin Newsom has tried to do,

3091
03:00:06,320 --> 03:00:09,240
Speaker 4: they will still come after you. You cannot get out

3092
03:00:09,280 --> 03:00:12,680
Speaker 4: of this by trying to please the administration. They're still

3093
03:00:12,720 --> 03:00:13,480
Speaker 4: going to go after you.

3094
03:00:13,720 --> 03:00:16,840
Speaker 5: The entire policy platform is your Facebook uncle wanting to

3095
03:00:16,840 --> 03:00:17,560
Speaker 5: earn the Libs.

3096
03:00:18,160 --> 03:00:21,920
Speaker 4: So we can see how well Gavin throwing trans people

3097
03:00:21,959 --> 03:00:23,920
Speaker 4: under the bus has worked for the state of California

3098
03:00:24,080 --> 03:00:28,080
Speaker 4: still getting sued. Lastly, before we pivot to ads, I

3099
03:00:28,120 --> 03:00:30,800
Speaker 4: want to update a story that Robert talked about last week.

3100
03:00:31,720 --> 03:00:35,640
Speaker 4: A former US Marine Corps reservist was arrested this Tuesday

3101
03:00:36,040 --> 03:00:39,040
Speaker 4: after a week long manhunt. He faces charges related to

3102
03:00:39,080 --> 03:00:42,320
Speaker 4: an alleged armed ambush on an ice attention facility in

3103
03:00:42,360 --> 03:00:45,400
Speaker 4: Prairie Land, Texas during a protest. He is now the

3104
03:00:45,520 --> 03:00:49,000
Speaker 4: fourteenth person charged in connection with the incident, and is

3105
03:00:49,040 --> 03:00:52,600
Speaker 4: also accused of purchasing four of the guns linked to

3106
03:00:52,640 --> 03:00:56,640
Speaker 4: the attack. Now two other people were also charged after

3107
03:00:56,680 --> 03:01:00,360
Speaker 4: allegedly helping the former reservist to escape after the attack.

3108
03:01:01,240 --> 03:01:04,520
Speaker 4: Nancy Larson, the acting US attorney, told Fox and Friends

3109
03:01:04,520 --> 03:01:07,959
Speaker 4: on Tuesday, quote they were involved in signal chats which

3110
03:01:08,000 --> 03:01:11,879
Speaker 4: show reconnaissance planning, a Google map, and the location of

3111
03:01:12,040 --> 03:01:15,440
Speaker 4: nearby police departments. At least one of these two new

3112
03:01:15,440 --> 03:01:19,160
Speaker 4: people charged was only charged after cooperating with the investigation.

3113
03:01:20,320 --> 03:01:22,520
Speaker 4: In this man's car, police found an air fifteen and

3114
03:01:22,560 --> 03:01:25,120
Speaker 4: a receipt for clothing that he admitted to purchasing for

3115
03:01:25,320 --> 03:01:27,000
Speaker 4: the former Marine reservist.

3116
03:01:27,640 --> 03:01:27,959
Speaker 11: Yeah.

3117
03:01:28,000 --> 03:01:31,120
Speaker 2: So, I mean this is a story to continue to

3118
03:01:31,120 --> 03:01:33,760
Speaker 2: pay attention to. I would remind folks that we know

3119
03:01:33,840 --> 03:01:35,959
Speaker 2: what the state is alleged in, you know, based on

3120
03:01:36,000 --> 03:01:38,840
Speaker 2: the charging documents. We know what people have been saying

3121
03:01:39,080 --> 03:01:42,560
Speaker 2: to the police, but we don't fully know what's happened yet.

3122
03:01:42,600 --> 03:01:44,520
Speaker 2: So we'll be continuing to keep an eye on the

3123
03:01:44,640 --> 03:01:48,760
Speaker 2: story as it develops. What do we have next, ads, Yeah,

3124
03:01:48,800 --> 03:01:53,240
Speaker 2: here's some products.

3125
03:02:02,120 --> 03:02:09,039
Speaker 4: Ah, let's close this episode by talking about Nazis. Nazis

3126
03:02:10,760 --> 03:02:14,320
Speaker 4: that one doesn't work, Robert, I'm sorry, I want it to.

3127
03:02:14,600 --> 03:02:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it doesn't. It doesn't doesn't. I've tried. I've

3128
03:02:16,800 --> 03:02:18,800
Speaker 2: even tried it before. I've even tried it before.

3129
03:02:19,240 --> 03:02:19,879
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3130
03:02:20,120 --> 03:02:23,039
Speaker 4: Now we will have to return to Stinky Motsk once again.

3131
03:02:23,040 --> 03:02:25,720
Speaker 4: But before we do, I first want to talk about

3132
03:02:26,000 --> 03:02:30,520
Speaker 4: friend of the pod Greg Gutfield, who recently discussed a

3133
03:02:30,560 --> 03:02:34,199
Speaker 4: strategy on how to minimize the impact of the American

3134
03:02:34,240 --> 03:02:39,280
Speaker 4: fascist right being called Nazis derogatorily. I will play a

3135
03:02:39,360 --> 03:02:40,920
Speaker 4: short clip from Fox News.

3136
03:02:41,920 --> 03:02:44,600
Speaker 15: This is why the criticism doesn't matter to us when

3137
03:02:44,600 --> 03:02:49,360
Speaker 15: you call us Nazis, Nazi, this Nazie that. You know,

3138
03:02:49,480 --> 03:02:51,119
Speaker 15: I'm beginning to think they don't like us.

3139
03:02:51,360 --> 03:02:53,240
Speaker 4: You know what. I've said this before.

3140
03:02:53,240 --> 03:02:56,080
Speaker 15: We need to learn from the Blacks, the way they

3141
03:02:56,440 --> 03:02:57,920
Speaker 15: were able to remove.

3142
03:02:57,600 --> 03:03:03,640
Speaker 4: The power from the end word Nazi. Hey, what up

3143
03:03:03,640 --> 03:03:06,359
Speaker 4: my Nazi? Hey, what's hanging my Nazi?

3144
03:03:08,000 --> 03:03:08,360
Speaker 2: Nazi?

3145
03:03:08,400 --> 03:03:08,800
Speaker 16: Please?

3146
03:03:10,640 --> 03:03:12,720
Speaker 4: Oh god, you did a hard eye there. What does

3147
03:03:12,760 --> 03:03:13,320
Speaker 4: it tell you that?

3148
03:03:13,480 --> 03:03:14,680
Speaker 12: Oh my god?

3149
03:03:16,280 --> 03:03:25,440
Speaker 5: GREGI wow, Wow, they're all just laughing, also quite concerned

3150
03:03:25,480 --> 03:03:26,560
Speaker 5: with that.

3151
03:03:26,560 --> 03:03:27,640
Speaker 4: That's pretty disturbing.

3152
03:03:28,760 --> 03:03:29,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, not great.

3153
03:03:29,720 --> 03:03:31,760
Speaker 8: He also he gave it one of those just to

3154
03:03:32,000 --> 03:03:35,080
Speaker 8: just to really send it he like, my heart goes

3155
03:03:35,120 --> 03:03:36,480
Speaker 8: out to you gesture.

3156
03:03:36,120 --> 03:03:40,600
Speaker 4: Oh God, that's right, my heart goes out to you. Salute. Yeah,

3157
03:03:40,680 --> 03:03:43,160
Speaker 4: I mean like I remember, like, you know, five years ago,

3158
03:03:43,280 --> 03:03:46,040
Speaker 4: you had you had these al right people talking about

3159
03:03:46,040 --> 03:03:49,920
Speaker 4: how you know, actually actually Hitler was was a socialist.

3160
03:03:50,040 --> 03:03:53,000
Speaker 4: You know, the Nazis are actually communists. We're not We're

3161
03:03:53,040 --> 03:03:56,679
Speaker 4: not Nazis. And now they're just openly trying to normalize

3162
03:03:57,160 --> 03:04:00,920
Speaker 4: referring to themselves as Nazis. It's seems, it seems a

3163
03:04:01,120 --> 03:04:05,720
Speaker 4: notable speaking of Nazis in the in the New Rights

3164
03:04:06,000 --> 03:04:10,720
Speaker 4: God Grock four has gotten a Department of Defense contract

3165
03:04:10,760 --> 03:04:13,320
Speaker 4: for two hundred million dollars as a part of its

3166
03:04:13,760 --> 03:04:18,440
Speaker 4: Rock for Government program, including the responsibility of handling sensitive

3167
03:04:18,520 --> 03:04:19,800
Speaker 4: classified materials.

3168
03:04:19,959 --> 03:04:24,600
Speaker 2: And it happens on the same week that Mecca Hitler,

3169
03:04:25,000 --> 03:04:27,920
Speaker 2: Mecca Hitler makes his beautiful debut.

3170
03:04:28,720 --> 03:04:32,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, pretty troubling for our strongest allies in the IDF here.

3171
03:04:33,800 --> 03:04:37,320
Speaker 4: Oh my god. I just the ways that reality could

3172
03:04:37,520 --> 03:04:40,879
Speaker 4: could could break out into different timelines right now is

3173
03:04:41,040 --> 03:04:44,800
Speaker 4: kind of dizzying, because there's a possibility that Mecha Hitler

3174
03:04:45,040 --> 03:04:50,480
Speaker 4: starts doing strikes based on anti Semitic Twitter users' recommendations

3175
03:04:50,800 --> 03:04:53,560
Speaker 4: directly tied in with government advisory programs.

3176
03:04:54,000 --> 03:04:55,640
Speaker 5: I got to say it's not going to went well

3177
03:04:55,680 --> 03:04:57,800
Speaker 5: for Turkey, judging by what we saw last week.

3178
03:04:58,280 --> 03:05:01,240
Speaker 4: Another possible but weaponization of groc or to announce that

3179
03:05:01,240 --> 03:05:04,400
Speaker 4: Grock four is gonna be added to Tesla, so Mecha

3180
03:05:04,480 --> 03:05:07,600
Speaker 4: Hitler might also be driving a Tesla around.

3181
03:05:07,800 --> 03:05:12,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, great, I will say. I will say. The person

3182
03:05:13,040 --> 03:05:16,200
Speaker 12: the most happy about this right now is somewhere in

3183
03:05:16,280 --> 03:05:20,320
Speaker 12: the depths of Chinese intelligence. There is a colonel who

3184
03:05:20,400 --> 03:05:23,200
Speaker 12: is looking at this announcement and is like, I am

3185
03:05:23,280 --> 03:05:26,000
Speaker 12: going all the way to the top. My family is

3186
03:05:26,080 --> 03:05:29,640
Speaker 12: never working again in our fucking lives. I am going

3187
03:05:29,680 --> 03:05:32,760
Speaker 12: to find so much dumb shit that these soldiers are

3188
03:05:32,760 --> 03:05:36,240
Speaker 12: typing into fucking do o D. Grock like, I am

3189
03:05:36,280 --> 03:05:37,680
Speaker 12: going to learn so much.

3190
03:05:37,920 --> 03:05:40,320
Speaker 4: I would be quite nervous right now if I was

3191
03:05:40,360 --> 03:05:41,560
Speaker 4: Will Stancil.

3192
03:05:42,160 --> 03:05:48,080
Speaker 8: Who, Yeah he's got Tesla's kind of tried to molest them.

3193
03:05:48,440 --> 03:05:54,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's gonna get it. He's gonna get drones struck.

3194
03:05:54,760 --> 03:05:57,120
Speaker 5: Every drone is gonna turn around and try and find

3195
03:05:57,120 --> 03:05:58,680
Speaker 5: Will Stanzel wherever they send it.

3196
03:05:58,920 --> 03:06:02,440
Speaker 4: Grock is continued to make rape threats against Will Stancil

3197
03:06:02,520 --> 03:06:06,560
Speaker 4: despite the tweaks in the code, and it's still referencing

3198
03:06:06,600 --> 03:06:10,039
Speaker 4: the Mecha Hitler incident. So Grok four is a new

3199
03:06:10,200 --> 03:06:15,760
Speaker 4: model of Xai's chatbot service. It launched officially last week.

3200
03:06:15,920 --> 03:06:19,080
Speaker 4: It was pretty similar to the model of Groc used

3201
03:06:19,160 --> 03:06:23,360
Speaker 4: in the Mecha Hitler incident, but there's been some small

3202
03:06:23,400 --> 03:06:26,840
Speaker 4: tweaks that researchers have noticed. An AI researcher named Jeremy

3203
03:06:26,840 --> 03:06:29,320
Speaker 4: Howard at least a video showing how Grock tries to

3204
03:06:29,360 --> 03:06:32,160
Speaker 4: answer a query about its stance on the quote Israel

3205
03:06:32,280 --> 03:06:37,920
Speaker 4: Palestine conflict. Jeremy found quote. It first searches Twitter for

3206
03:06:38,000 --> 03:06:42,280
Speaker 4: what Elon thinks, then it searches the web for Elon's views.

3207
03:06:42,920 --> 03:06:45,440
Speaker 4: Finally it adds some non Elon bits at the end.

3208
03:06:45,879 --> 03:06:49,279
Speaker 4: Fifty four out of the sixty four citations are about

3209
03:06:49,440 --> 03:06:52,560
Speaker 4: Elon unquote.

3210
03:06:51,280 --> 03:06:53,120
Speaker 5: Amazing.

3211
03:06:53,320 --> 03:06:57,119
Speaker 12: Xai has confirmed that this was how Grock was operating,

3212
03:06:57,200 --> 03:07:00,879
Speaker 12: and has since claimed that it's making adjustments now and

3213
03:07:01,000 --> 03:07:03,520
Speaker 12: said that Grok was trying to appear in line with

3214
03:07:03,680 --> 03:07:06,160
Speaker 12: the company's head end policy.

3215
03:07:06,920 --> 03:07:09,080
Speaker 5: This is amazing because hopefully that's the same with its

3216
03:07:09,080 --> 03:07:11,760
Speaker 5: defense policy. Wasn't Elon Musk one of those like F

3217
03:07:11,840 --> 03:07:13,800
Speaker 5: thirty five has gone woke people.

3218
03:07:14,320 --> 03:07:15,920
Speaker 4: You'll have to answer that for yourself.

3219
03:07:16,000 --> 03:07:20,280
Speaker 5: Javes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, this is this is

3220
03:07:20,320 --> 03:07:22,200
Speaker 5: a piece of law that has passed you by.

3221
03:07:23,200 --> 03:07:25,600
Speaker 8: For a while there and Musk concern of his friends

3222
03:07:25,640 --> 03:07:30,640
Speaker 8: were quoting tweeting about the F thirty five, quoting, yeah,

3223
03:07:30,680 --> 03:07:33,480
Speaker 8: about the F thirty five being woke and how we

3224
03:07:33,480 --> 03:07:36,160
Speaker 8: should like return to F sixteen or.

3225
03:07:36,160 --> 03:07:37,320
Speaker 5: I think it was very funny.

3226
03:07:37,720 --> 03:07:40,199
Speaker 12: Are we going to talk about the other weird chatbots?

3227
03:07:41,160 --> 03:07:44,240
Speaker 4: Oh? How grog has the death Note Mysa? Mysa's like

3228
03:07:44,320 --> 03:07:47,440
Speaker 4: sex Spot. What you know, if you want to talk

3229
03:07:47,440 --> 03:07:49,800
Speaker 4: about it, Miya, I will not stop you.

3230
03:07:50,080 --> 03:07:51,640
Speaker 5: I don't know what the fuck you're talking is this?

3231
03:07:51,760 --> 03:07:52,760
Speaker 5: Jar Jar binks again.

3232
03:07:53,120 --> 03:07:55,640
Speaker 12: I have two sentences about this, one of which is

3233
03:07:55,680 --> 03:07:58,760
Speaker 12: not mine. The first sentence I am going to say

3234
03:07:58,959 --> 03:08:02,560
Speaker 12: is that, Yeah, the Twitter now has like a really

3235
03:08:02,720 --> 03:08:08,960
Speaker 12: really weird anime girl sex bot thing that's like an

3236
03:08:09,000 --> 03:08:13,240
Speaker 12: AI very clearly inspired by a Death Note character. Yeah,

3237
03:08:13,280 --> 03:08:15,440
Speaker 12: so sometimes you just need to say the obvious thing.

3238
03:08:15,440 --> 03:08:18,160
Speaker 12: And the person who said the obvious thing is a

3239
03:08:18,200 --> 03:08:23,120
Speaker 12: person on Blue Sky called at TVQ talks. They said,

3240
03:08:23,280 --> 03:08:25,200
Speaker 12: I keep saying it. The push for AI made so

3241
03:08:25,280 --> 03:08:27,280
Speaker 12: much more sense to me once I realized tech bros

3242
03:08:27,280 --> 03:08:29,119
Speaker 12: talk to it like a woman who won't talk back,

3243
03:08:29,879 --> 03:08:34,199
Speaker 12: and like yeah that they just oh god.

3244
03:08:35,320 --> 03:08:35,520
Speaker 7: You know.

3245
03:08:35,560 --> 03:08:38,480
Speaker 4: I will say, if it was modeled after L instead

3246
03:08:38,480 --> 03:08:41,520
Speaker 4: of MESA, it could serve some use, it could be compelling.

3247
03:08:41,879 --> 03:08:45,199
Speaker 4: But because it's MESA, it's just completely useless. So Garret,

3248
03:08:45,320 --> 03:08:48,560
Speaker 4: we already have that chatot. That chatpot already exists. This

3249
03:08:48,640 --> 03:08:52,160
Speaker 4: has existed for a long time. Where is an L

3250
03:08:52,280 --> 03:08:53,199
Speaker 4: death note chatpot?

3251
03:08:53,240 --> 03:08:53,320
Speaker 5: Me?

3252
03:08:53,320 --> 03:08:54,640
Speaker 4: Actually, no, you could send it to me. After this.

3253
03:08:54,760 --> 03:08:57,240
Speaker 12: There's a whole bunch of character chatpots that's like a

3254
03:08:57,240 --> 03:08:57,720
Speaker 12: whole thing.

3255
03:08:58,000 --> 03:09:01,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe not exactly what I'm looking for, but whatever.

3256
03:09:02,480 --> 03:09:06,400
Speaker 12: God, Okay, terrible zero out of ten. Let's talk about

3257
03:09:06,480 --> 03:09:07,840
Speaker 12: the other dad contracts.

3258
03:09:08,240 --> 03:09:10,360
Speaker 4: Well, I mean yeah, but part this two hundred million

3259
03:09:10,360 --> 03:09:13,199
Speaker 4: dollars groc contract was part of a series of AI

3260
03:09:13,240 --> 03:09:16,440
Speaker 4: contracts that Anthropic and Claude also received. I think Google

3261
03:09:16,480 --> 03:09:20,280
Speaker 4: got one. It's part of Trump's initiative to strengthen like

3262
03:09:20,400 --> 03:09:24,560
Speaker 4: AI in government, so Grock is not the only one.

3263
03:09:25,040 --> 03:09:27,120
Speaker 12: I will also say that like this is obviously like

3264
03:09:27,160 --> 03:09:29,640
Speaker 12: the endgame of all of these companies is trying to

3265
03:09:29,640 --> 03:09:32,840
Speaker 12: get their like failing AI firms bailed out by the military,

3266
03:09:32,879 --> 03:09:34,880
Speaker 12: but like even two hundred million is not enough to

3267
03:09:35,040 --> 03:09:38,080
Speaker 12: like recoup the hideous amounts of money these people are burning.

3268
03:09:38,200 --> 03:09:40,040
Speaker 12: So I hope they all fail.

3269
03:09:40,520 --> 03:09:43,039
Speaker 4: Rabi, do you have anything to add on on GROC Talk.

3270
03:09:44,480 --> 03:09:46,680
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I think it's funny. He's also trying

3271
03:09:46,720 --> 03:09:51,120
Speaker 2: to make AI companions out of groc One is clearly

3272
03:09:51,280 --> 03:09:54,120
Speaker 2: a version of his ex Grimes, who is supposed to

3273
03:09:54,120 --> 03:09:55,480
Speaker 2: teach you quantum physics.

3274
03:09:55,560 --> 03:09:57,120
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, this is this is this that I

3275
03:09:57,160 --> 03:09:59,039
Speaker 4: have sex with you? This is part of the mesa

3276
03:09:59,080 --> 03:10:00,200
Speaker 4: misa one as well.

3277
03:10:00,320 --> 03:10:00,680
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3278
03:10:00,840 --> 03:10:04,760
Speaker 2: And then there's my favorite is the male chatbot, which

3279
03:10:04,800 --> 03:10:07,560
Speaker 2: is based off of Christian Gray from Fifty Shades of

3280
03:10:07,600 --> 03:10:11,320
Speaker 2: Gray and also Edward Colin from Twilight, who did just

3281
03:10:12,080 --> 03:10:14,280
Speaker 2: based off of the guy from fifty Shades of Gray.

3282
03:10:14,400 --> 03:10:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3283
03:10:15,120 --> 03:10:17,880
Speaker 4: I just saw that this was the explicitly named as

3284
03:10:17,920 --> 03:10:21,800
Speaker 4: the two inspiren It's so funny. It's so funny. Again,

3285
03:10:22,200 --> 03:10:25,280
Speaker 4: if it was l it could be worthwhile, but this

3286
03:10:25,480 --> 03:10:28,800
Speaker 4: just is, like is just slop, worthless, no artistic merit.

3287
03:10:29,040 --> 03:10:31,360
Speaker 2: No anyway, That's all I got to add.

3288
03:10:31,800 --> 03:10:33,039
Speaker 5: So as we come to the end, here. There are

3289
03:10:33,080 --> 03:10:35,240
Speaker 5: a couple of things that I want to remind people of.

3290
03:10:35,400 --> 03:10:38,040
Speaker 5: The first is that if you would like to email us,

3291
03:10:38,200 --> 03:10:42,039
Speaker 5: you can do so. Remember that although ori email address

3292
03:10:42,080 --> 03:10:45,640
Speaker 5: is encrypted, you will also have to encrypt your email

3293
03:10:45,640 --> 03:10:47,000
Speaker 5: at your end if you want it to be end

3294
03:10:47,040 --> 03:10:50,680
Speaker 5: to end encrypted. ORI email address is cool Zone tips

3295
03:10:50,720 --> 03:10:56,080
Speaker 5: at proton dot me. The other thing is Bouquette's Sylum

3296
03:10:56,280 --> 03:10:59,920
Speaker 5: Lawyer fundraiser. It's been going very well and we massively

3297
03:11:00,000 --> 03:11:02,800
Speaker 5: appreciate all of you who have donated. We're gonna plug

3298
03:11:02,840 --> 03:11:05,800
Speaker 5: that again this week. To find it, you can either

3299
03:11:05,959 --> 03:11:08,200
Speaker 5: go to go fund me and search her name. Boukette

3300
03:11:08,600 --> 03:11:12,560
Speaker 5: can be uk E T, space T A N, or

3301
03:11:12,680 --> 03:11:17,119
Speaker 5: you can go to www dot GoFundMe dot com, slash

3302
03:11:17,320 --> 03:11:23,200
Speaker 5: f slash urgent, hyphen help hyphen for hyphen Bouquette b

3303
03:11:23,320 --> 03:11:29,120
Speaker 5: U K E T S, hyphen asylum, hyphen case, or

3304
03:11:29,240 --> 03:11:31,920
Speaker 5: you can just scroll down hit the little link that

3305
03:11:32,040 --> 03:11:35,560
Speaker 5: will be underneath this podcast in your podcatcher.

3306
03:11:36,360 --> 03:11:39,800
Speaker 16: Wait, okay, late breaking, late breaking news, late breaking news.

3307
03:11:39,840 --> 03:11:43,120
Speaker 16: Trump has reportedly broken a deal for Coca Cola to

3308
03:11:43,240 --> 03:11:47,480
Speaker 16: use quote real sugarcane in US coke products.

3309
03:11:48,280 --> 03:11:52,080
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, finally Wow, this is gonna go down well

3310
03:11:52,120 --> 03:11:53,279
Speaker 2: with corn country.

3311
03:11:54,000 --> 03:11:58,400
Speaker 12: No, this this genuinely like if he actually goes to

3312
03:11:58,480 --> 03:12:01,840
Speaker 12: war with like the ERICN Corn Lobby, if he's the

3313
03:12:01,840 --> 03:12:04,320
Speaker 12: one who does this and like gets the blow up

3314
03:12:04,320 --> 03:12:07,360
Speaker 12: from it, I don't know. Like this genuidely would be

3315
03:12:07,400 --> 03:12:10,040
Speaker 12: a seismic restructuring of agriculture in the United States.

3316
03:12:11,120 --> 03:12:14,400
Speaker 5: Oh boy, Yeah, I still use the corn. A load

3317
03:12:14,400 --> 03:12:16,920
Speaker 5: of corn goes to feed things that them become feed, right.

3318
03:12:17,000 --> 03:12:19,280
Speaker 12: But still like, like we produced so much corn, we

3319
03:12:19,320 --> 03:12:23,480
Speaker 12: had to make more corn things, Like every year they

3320
03:12:23,480 --> 03:12:26,360
Speaker 12: invent a new thing to do with corn. Disastrous.

3321
03:12:27,160 --> 03:12:30,480
Speaker 4: God, I am really gonna miss Red number forty. It

3322
03:12:30,560 --> 03:12:32,800
Speaker 4: was my favorite. Whenever I was feeling down, I just

3323
03:12:32,840 --> 03:12:36,120
Speaker 4: did a few drops. And it sucks to see an

3324
03:12:36,120 --> 03:12:36,760
Speaker 4: old friend and.

3325
03:12:36,680 --> 03:12:38,400
Speaker 2: Go yeah tragic.

3326
03:12:38,560 --> 03:12:40,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's also going to be very hard for the

3327
03:12:41,080 --> 03:12:43,880
Speaker 5: people who've made the whole identity buying Mexican coke and

3328
03:12:43,920 --> 03:12:46,200
Speaker 5: glass bottles. We should pull one out for them.

3329
03:12:46,280 --> 03:12:48,959
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's gonna be a rough night in Bushwick tonight.

3330
03:12:49,320 --> 03:12:51,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3331
03:12:51,120 --> 03:12:52,160
Speaker 4: We reported the news.

3332
03:12:52,840 --> 03:12:53,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, we sure did.

3333
03:12:54,840 --> 03:12:56,199
Speaker 7: We reported the news.

3334
03:13:01,600 --> 03:13:04,760
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3335
03:13:04,840 --> 03:13:06,760
Speaker 2: from now until the heat, death of the universe.

3336
03:13:07,480 --> 03:13:10,000
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3337
03:13:10,160 --> 03:13:13,240
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3338
03:13:13,320 --> 03:13:16,880
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3339
03:13:16,959 --> 03:13:20,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3340
03:13:20,560 --> 03:13:22,879
Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly

3341
03:13:22,920 --> 03:13:25,200
Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.