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Speaker 1: Warning.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode condat spoilers for various erotic thrillers and sexy

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Speaker 2: movies throughout his Hello, my name is Jason Concepcion and

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Speaker 2: I'm Joelmenie. Welcome back to ext Revision of the podcast,

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Speaker 2: where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics

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Speaker 2: of pop culture, Company from my Heart, where we're bringing

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Speaker 2: you three episodes a week listens.

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Speaker 1: In today's episode, we're exploring sex on film. What are

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Speaker 1: the emiest movies? Do people even want to see sex

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Speaker 1: on screen? Intimacy coordinators? Do you need them? We're gonna

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Speaker 1: get into all of it.

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Speaker 2: But first let's talk about sexy movies. Sexy movies. Joelle,

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Speaker 2: we are both fans of movies, and we're both fans

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Speaker 2: of sexy movies. Sex done well in movies. As part

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Speaker 2: of a story, what was your first steamy movie? Watch?

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Speaker 1: There was a handprint on a screen. It was the

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Speaker 1: first boobs I saw. Titanic is the first movie I

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Speaker 1: saw where there was sex on screen, and I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's there's connections, We're vibing. There's a lot of like

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Speaker 1: build up to this, like first intimate encounter, and I

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Speaker 1: was blown away. But then my dad had this giant

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Speaker 1: DVD collection, and I spent a lot of the latchkey kid,

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Speaker 1: a lot of time at home, not a lot being monitored.

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Speaker 1: I was like, bound, Wonder what that is? Kind of

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Speaker 1: a cool cover. These chicks look awesome at it. What's

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Speaker 1: going on over here? So saw Bound and I was like.

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Speaker 2: Eleven, and I was like, Eleven's good.

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Speaker 1: Women can do this to each other? Who knew? Very exciting.

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Speaker 1: So those are my first kind of two entryways into

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Speaker 1: sex within film. What about you, I.

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Speaker 2: Think my first I could not tell you with any

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Speaker 2: kind of specificity what my first full sexy movie, erotic

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Speaker 2: thriller movie was. I was also a latchkey kid. I

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Speaker 2: was also of the generation where, you know, uh, Friday Nights,

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Speaker 2: I'd be in that TV guide being like, what has

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Speaker 2: an R rating or a NR not rated rating on

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Speaker 2: any cable channel tonight? You know, like, how do I

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Speaker 2: see boobs? How do we get it popping? But I

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Speaker 2: think my first what I considered the first scene that

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Speaker 2: struck me was it is what Ripley strips down at

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Speaker 2: the end of Alien. I think I was like seven,

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Speaker 2: and it was the first time I'm like woman, woman,

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Speaker 2: pretty woman, attractive, what is it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, To this day, Jason, I feel like, oh I

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Speaker 1: forgot this was in here. Wow, she's look those pants.

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Speaker 2: So that was I remember being like dumb struck by

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Speaker 2: that seed that movie and just being like like, I

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Speaker 2: want to watch this again. What happened? What is happening?

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Speaker 2: So that is my definite and then ask for like

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Speaker 2: the full movie, you know, Gosh, I couldn't tell you

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Speaker 2: similar to you, I'm sure I was watching all kinds

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Speaker 2: of things I shouldn't have been watching at all, kinds

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Speaker 2: of ages that I shouldn't have been watching it, mostly

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Speaker 2: on basic cable, just all the time raised by the television.

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Speaker 2: But I recall seeing, you know, I recall seeing Body

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Speaker 2: Heat by early junior high school sometime. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the sweatiest movies of all time. Sure, and

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Speaker 2: and I remember, in fact that it was some years

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Speaker 2: after seeing it that I was actually able to process

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Speaker 2: the plot separate and apart from just the power of yeah,

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Speaker 2: the ironic power of the material.

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Speaker 1: You know, Kathleen Turner's voice will do a lot for you.

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Speaker 1: It all like your brain is like I can't process

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Speaker 1: thoughts fully. Kathleen Turner is speaking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like I didn't it was, and it was later

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Speaker 2: that I was like, oh, I understand, she's making this

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Speaker 2: guy is dumb. William hurt Is is dumb, and she's

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Speaker 2: making him dumber all the time on purpose. It took

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Speaker 2: a while for me to truly get that.

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Speaker 1: It's funny what like the early ones sort of paying

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Speaker 1: for you because for example, like Alien not a film

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Speaker 1: that he comes to mind, you're like, we're talking to me,

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Speaker 1: but in the innocence of a child, and when you're

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Speaker 1: like and you're like, oh my gosh, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: crazy how these films I saw like, well, I'll stick

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Speaker 1: with Bound. Like seeing Bound was so it was like

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Speaker 1: one of the I remember running to school and being

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Speaker 1: like Camille, who was my best friend at the time,

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Speaker 1: I was like, have you seen? Did you know that

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Speaker 1: this existed? It's incredible? And from there, like it totally

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Speaker 1: took us into like an entirely different direction of like

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Speaker 1: how we were watching films and what we were looking for.

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Speaker 1: Prime Prejudice comes out maybe a year or two after this,

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Speaker 1: which again we are like in a completely and totally

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Speaker 1: different way, though we're completely like swept up in the

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Speaker 1: like nuances of a character in the way film sort

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Speaker 1: of allows you to linger and really experience sexual tension

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Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think all like, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I compare it to other art mediums, I think, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: the electric guitar, classic sexy instrument. It's give, But how

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Speaker 1: long can you, sus stay a two minute guitar solo.

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Speaker 1: You're already like that's enough. I get it. I think

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Speaker 1: there's something really unique about film and its relationships both

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Speaker 1: to crime and you know, that close up intimacy, uh

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Speaker 1: that connects you to like way before you get there yourself,

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Speaker 1: like sort of like a gateway.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a great point, and I think particular

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Speaker 2: to the era when I really started watching movies like

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Speaker 2: the you know, the mid eighties with any kind of

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Speaker 2: emotional and critical eye. You know, it's interesting now to

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Speaker 2: think back about this is a period when you're coming

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Speaker 2: out of the sixties and seventies when the kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, a boomer generated sexual liberation, sexual freedom, A

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Speaker 2: lot of morays are falling away, right. You had a

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Speaker 2: period in the seventies where porn films were on the

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Speaker 2: top ten of untunately.

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Speaker 1: Discussing them around the water cooler. A crazy time in history.

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Speaker 2: That happened, right, that happened, and that bled into all

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Speaker 2: these other movies of the period, traditional type movies, you know,

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Speaker 2: a Cligle, etc. Last Hanger in Paris, which we will

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Speaker 2: talk about all of these the effects that this had

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Speaker 2: on performers and on audiences. And by the eighties you

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Speaker 2: had this period where you know, things are getting more conservative,

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Speaker 2: Reagan's there, things are tightening down, and it feels like

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Speaker 2: the erotic thriller really took off during that period because

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Speaker 2: of a confluence of both the kind of tightening of

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Speaker 2: cultural moras around the country and cinema being kind of

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Speaker 2: at the peak of its power as a place where

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Speaker 2: people could work out these different tensions, and talented filmmakers

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Speaker 2: could figure out a way to show these things in

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Speaker 2: ways that felt addedive to story as part of story

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Speaker 2: is an interesting part of story and not just like

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Speaker 2: pure exploitation. Like talented filmmakers got a hold of this

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Speaker 2: material and really started to do something interesting with it

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Speaker 2: that was based on, you know, heavily on noir, I

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Speaker 2: think in the fem fatal and kind of reinterpretations of

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Speaker 2: the fem fatal. And also the Eighth Crisis was making

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Speaker 2: people scared of sex written large, and so you add

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Speaker 2: people working that out. How does that work? You know,

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Speaker 2: in a modern day context when adults are now scared

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Speaker 2: to have sex, and so you have all these movies

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Speaker 2: like Fatal Attraction and where it's not specifically about sexually

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Speaker 2: transmitted disease or the fear of it, but it's about

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Speaker 2: how thinking with your libido can get you in a

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Speaker 2: lot of trouble. Yeah, you need to stop and think

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Speaker 2: about that. So I'm really fascinated. It's gonna be a

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Speaker 2: fun conversation. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know. The other thing I pick up on the

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Speaker 1: list of movies, it's crazy to me how actual adults,

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Speaker 1: and by this I mean people over their thirties were

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Speaker 1: like the center focus of a lot of those movies.

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Speaker 1: Whereas I feel as we evolve over time, particularly when

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Speaker 1: we're looking at like the erotic thrillers of the nineties

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Speaker 1: that starts to dip the later into the nineties. You

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Speaker 1: go and they're like, it's about like it's only for

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Speaker 1: teens now, like only teenagers are having sex, adults are

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Speaker 1: doing I guess we've moved adults to like very overly

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Speaker 1: dramatic romances at that time. And I think when you

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Speaker 1: go back and re visit these films from the eighties,

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Speaker 1: early nineties, late seventies. Uh, you can also discover I

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Speaker 1: think America's maybe since the forties, like carcious critique of

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Speaker 1: romantic relationships, particularly like the unwed folks, like you're unwed,

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Speaker 1: you're older, you're like struggling through both life and trying

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Speaker 1: to make these connections. And it's so I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna connect to two of the film that's

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Speaker 1: again traditionally not very sexy, but like Dog Day Afternoon.

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Speaker 1: If you think about the intimacy of that movie and

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Speaker 1: the I think.

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Speaker 2: You particularly a very vulnerable intimate movie.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we don't get that. And well, we'll

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of the more modern

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Speaker 1: films and where we've gone, but I miss the consistency

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Speaker 1: of that level. We get it here and there and

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Speaker 1: it's nice and it's lovely. We'll talk about Moonlight later,

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Speaker 1: but I think the consistency in which we get those

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Speaker 1: moments within our steamy films, it's missing, and I would

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Speaker 1: like it to come back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a way to ground erotic material sex

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Speaker 2: scenes in an exploration of what drives human beings. Of

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Speaker 2: part of the human experience rather than just like you know,

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Speaker 2: aesthetically titillating material. And I think that's what kind of

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Speaker 2: made the great period of these movies so vital. And

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Speaker 2: there was a period I think probably peaking with Fatal

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Speaker 2: Attraction and then finally crusting with like Showgirls and Bound There.

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Speaker 2: This was a driver people were going to the box.

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Speaker 1: Almost to see these movie. Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about first let's let's take a quick break,

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Speaker 2: and then we will talk about our favorite sexy movies

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Speaker 2: and all the various topics of conversation that intersect with

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Speaker 2: these movies. Be back right after this. M Okay, we're back.

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Speaker 2: This is gonna be fun. So let's talk about our

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Speaker 2: favorite our favorite sexy movies. Okay, together a little list here,

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Speaker 2: we have some intersections. Yeah, you you give your list

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Speaker 2: and then I'll give my Listen, I'll talk.

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Speaker 1: About it all right. So my top Steamius sexiest film

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Speaker 1: of all time is The Handmaiden. This film great one

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Speaker 1: fundamentally changed to I am as a human being, was like,

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Speaker 1: we don't do what in movies and it it it's

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Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it. It follows the story of

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Speaker 1: two women who are from very disparate parts of life

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Speaker 1: for getting classic romantic themes here, right, two people, different

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Speaker 1: sides of culture and community and wealth as far apart

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Speaker 1: as you could possibly be. One is the handmaiden. One

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Speaker 1: is like, she's not royalty, but she's like an upper

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Speaker 1: class lady. And they're both so ostracized from their immediate

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Speaker 1: communities they start falling into each other. It's horrifying at times,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful, it's shocking, and it's gorgeously photographed. Love the Handmaiden,

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Speaker 1: beautiful Selma and Louise is in there. These are not

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Speaker 1: pretticular Sella, Louise Bradpey takes off his shirt. We're done.

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Speaker 1: That's the end of the story. Is that.

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Speaker 2: The most impactful five minutes ever in cinema? It's like legitimate.

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Speaker 2: I remember I remember people like I hadn't seen I

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Speaker 2: hadn't seen the movie. But I remember like hearing adults,

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Speaker 2: my mom and her friends being like, there's this guy

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Speaker 2: in this movie for five minutes. He takes off his shirt,

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Speaker 2: he has a cowboy hat on, and you have to

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Speaker 2: see this film, and I mean obviously launched his career

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Speaker 2: from there. It's it's a it's one of the most

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Speaker 2: incredible entries into cinema of all time, if not the.

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Speaker 1: You're getting the most masculine, like the height of like

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Speaker 1: masculinity in America. Right, So it's it's the jeans, it's

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Speaker 1: the cowboy hat, it's the superhero body before that's regular.

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Speaker 2: Let me well, hold on, let me push back slightly,

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Speaker 2: because I think what was so I think what was

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Speaker 2: so striking about Pitt was this is what ninety one

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Speaker 2: maybe this was the period. We're coming off of Arnold,

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Speaker 2: We're coming off of Slice Slow, We're coming off of

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Speaker 2: these buff, huge, okay guys, and here comes and here

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Speaker 2: comes Pitt, and he brings something more boyish to it,

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Speaker 2: Like there's a leanness to him all of a sudden.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't about being huge, it was about having It

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Speaker 2: was about being lean and cut. Yeah, and there was that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I want to say, there was like a

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Speaker 2: twinkish quality that I.

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Speaker 1: Guess people had not. Tom Cruise is coming up right

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Speaker 1: around the same time.

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Speaker 2: Right, had not had not engaged within the culture that

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Speaker 2: made that such a oh whoa, that's something different. Can

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Speaker 2: I add to that masculine guy.

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Speaker 1: This is also a film about two women reclaiming their

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Speaker 1: identities and their own like their ability to make their

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Speaker 1: own life decisions. Ag I think a lot, thank you,

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of times when we're as women,

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Speaker 1: when we're thinking about that, you're like, what is a

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Speaker 1: man allowed to do in this world that I'm not?

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Speaker 1: These are slightly older women. I don't they were very

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Speaker 1: young when they made this movie, but you get the

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Speaker 1: sense that, like Brad might be like a few years

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Speaker 1: younger than Gina. This is not a thing you get

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Speaker 1: to see on film a lot, especially at this time.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're not in a nicole kidman baby girl

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Speaker 1: world yet, and so I think there's something too really

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Speaker 1: powerful about She's like, I'm picking up this guy. He's

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Speaker 1: stupid hot, and like she literally find sexual freedom in

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Speaker 1: this hotel room, even though she gets robbed by him

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Speaker 1: the next day. The fact that, like, listen the power

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Speaker 1: of Brad pay In any other movie, you'd be like

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Speaker 1: fuck that. On a rewatch, you'd be like, fuck this guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're still like, good for you, girl, you got it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter if that you get.

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Speaker 2: I was. I remember reading this interview with a Hollywood trainer,

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Speaker 2: trainer to the stars, who had been who's been doing it?

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Speaker 2: For you know, several decades and him saying, as soon

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Speaker 2: as Thumba and Louise came out, people who were coming

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Speaker 2: to me, stop talk guys, stop talking about size. They

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Speaker 2: stopped talking about bulk, and they wanted to be like,

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Speaker 2: how do I look like this? How do I look

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Speaker 2: like I'm one.

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Speaker 1: Hundred and.

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Speaker 2: Sixty five pounds soaking wet? But like, how do I

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Speaker 2: look ripped like this? How do I get the sides

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Speaker 2: of my abs look like this? And I think it

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Speaker 2: was you know, it was as original in a lot

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Speaker 2: of ways for a lot of people. Continue.

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Speaker 1: Please, yes, yes, Thelma Luise a great film if you

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Speaker 1: haven't seen it, Okay, Mississippy Massala is another film. Denzel Washington.

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Speaker 1: If you weren't there, I can't stress to you the

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Speaker 1: grip he had on black women, Like there was not

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Speaker 1: a grandy or an auntie, the lesbians. It didn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Now everyone was here, de Denzel. They rocked with Denzel

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Speaker 1: very famously. He was like, listen, I can't do more

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Speaker 1: than like kind of flirt with Julia Roberts because black

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Speaker 1: women might just own me them. Yes, but I can

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Speaker 1: go to Mississippi Massala and it was incredible. You want

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Speaker 1: to talk about a sweaty movie. People are perspiring and

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Speaker 1: they're touching and their long and then two you have

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Speaker 1: two like sweethearts of people where you're like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: just want them to be happy. I just want them

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Speaker 1: to get to please, let it work out. They look

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Speaker 1: at the love between them adore. It's just it's heartwarming,

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Speaker 1: but it's also sexy. Not often a thing you can

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Speaker 1: get both. It's so so good. Another movie that's kind

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Speaker 1: of heartwarming and lovely Moonlight, which has beautiful for steaminess.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's maybe more sensual than steamy, but I'm

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Speaker 1: still going to count it because I think there's something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have so few representations of like black queermen,

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Speaker 1: especially like hyper masculine like black queermen falling for each other,

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Speaker 1: to do it in such a way that it's not

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Speaker 1: just over a lifespan, but through the lens of like

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Speaker 1: family and like public perception and the deep internal reflection

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Speaker 1: and to get all of that. And there's one of

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Speaker 1: the best, just so beautifully sensual, like The Love Man

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Speaker 1: to Me, I like a see me movie with a

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Speaker 1: lot of heart. I think that's the one. It's really

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Speaker 1: hidden because then you could really celebrate when they get together,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to being like, well this is gonna end

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Speaker 1: by ad so I quite like I.

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Speaker 2: Love I love that take because my take icolitic from

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Speaker 2: a completely different direction, as you will see. But I'm

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Speaker 2: going to contrast these of engaging with erotic material.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about where we combine then. The one film

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Speaker 1: that was on both of our lists, the potentially greatest

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Speaker 1: sex seem forward film of all time, Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: Bound by the Wachowski sisters, in the film that made

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Speaker 1: us all go we should have known, uh, we should

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Speaker 1: have known women were behind this in the way a

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Speaker 1: lot of things fall into place. Later they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's women in their lesbians of course, like that, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's the only people who could have made this movie.

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Speaker 1: It is Jennifer Tilly at her hottest, like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Tilly in this movie doing the I'm not bad,

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Speaker 1: I'm just drama this way sort of with her aspect

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Speaker 1: that she's so freaking good at they had She had.

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Speaker 2: Been kind of known for, for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 2: like bimbo type roles before really before this where she

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Speaker 2: shows you another just how brutally she had been typecast

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Speaker 2: because this is a role of depth, real emotional depth

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Speaker 2: and real like inspirational longing and ambition. It's wonderful.

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Speaker 1: I think vulnerability and deception or two of the hardest

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Speaker 1: things to play on. How do you pretend to be

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Speaker 1: deceiving someone convincingly? It's really hard, and she does both

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Speaker 1: so beautifully, and then Gina gersher mask. Women everywhere we're like,

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Speaker 1: we have a blueprint and we will follow it to

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Speaker 1: our grades. This is the new this is the new standard. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Everyone went out and was like, where's my wife beater

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Speaker 1: and take it back everyone. I was like, I need

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Speaker 1: a white tank top, we need the Canadian suits, we

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Speaker 1: need a great leather jacket. The haircut. Everything changed after

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Speaker 1: this guy.

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Speaker 2: The way she would shit and lean forward, the way

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Speaker 2: she would sit and like lean forward.

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Speaker 1: Jason, the way she just picks out her lip, like

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Speaker 1: every talk about law, intimate moments. Everything is just like

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Speaker 1: a quick side glance along and look down a hallway,

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Speaker 1: a touch to your neck, and you're just like all

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Speaker 1: of these small things. Okay. I recently saw this movie

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Speaker 1: Friend of the pod if Eat Whitey Way was doing

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Speaker 1: a screening of Bound at Vidiots and I was so thought.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna come in here. It's gonna

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Speaker 1: be all lesbian, It's gonna be great. There were plenty,

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Speaker 1: but I was shocked children not children, but young people.

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Speaker 1: So many young people, and it was their first time

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Speaker 1: seeing the movie. They asked at the top, we did

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Speaker 1: hand raised. It's like, oh, half this theater has never

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Speaker 1: seen Bound before. Every the gas, the falls. I was like,

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Speaker 1: this movie still cooks like they've still got it. They're

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Speaker 1: fully connected and invested and resonant and shocking and delightful.

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Speaker 1: It is such a perfect movie. What is it about

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Speaker 1: Bound that you think is still like brings people back

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Speaker 1: on rewatches years later?

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Speaker 2: I think it's I mean, slight spoiler. Can I just

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Speaker 2: be real? They get away with it? Like, yes, you know,

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Speaker 2: they just get It's so there's a liberation and a

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Speaker 2: thrill of finally they get away. You know, they get

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Speaker 2: away with it, and the momentum that builds throughout it,

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Speaker 2: the tension of build this kind of and again, if

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Speaker 2: you haven't seen it, I don't want to step on

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Speaker 2: the plot too much, but there's so much manipulation and

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Speaker 2: lying and both being someone you're not, but underneath that

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Speaker 2: this feeling of the real you, kind of the real people.

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Speaker 2: These characters are writhing against the things that they are

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Speaker 2: contained by, and these two characters find a bond that

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Speaker 2: is like immediate, like unshakeable, and and like the kind

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Speaker 2: of thing where you're like, you are the only person

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Speaker 2: that sees me in this world right, and nobody else does.

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Speaker 2: And they're surrounded by danger and they get away with it.

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Speaker 2: That to me is what is so thrilling and liberating

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Speaker 2: about this movie.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I would think if.

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Speaker 2: They are they they get out, they keep all the

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Speaker 2: benefits accrue to them, and the bad people are destroyed,

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Speaker 2: and they are not punished, and they did nothing wrong.

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Speaker 2: They get away with it.

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Speaker 1: First of all, they did nothing wrong. We support women's

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Speaker 1: rights and wrongs. They're always right, and they were especially

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Speaker 1: right here. I would say too, if you haven't seen

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Speaker 1: this movie, but you've seen The Matrix, it's very different,

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Speaker 1: very different budget. But the tension of the last like

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes of the Matrix, where you're like, how are

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Speaker 1: we going to get out? How are our heroes going

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Speaker 1: to do this? The back and forth, I think the

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Speaker 1: structural just arc of that last act, it's you understand

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Speaker 1: how they got the Matrix. After this, you like there's

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Speaker 1: so much trust both in their performers and in the

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Speaker 1: mystery of how you're going to get out of this.

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Speaker 1: And two because they just shoot in this one apartment,

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Speaker 1: it's just so tight and claustrophobic. It's brilliant. It's really

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Speaker 1: I can't just to you how good this movie is.

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Speaker 1: I've not talked to a single person who's seen this

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Speaker 1: movie and been like, nah, I just kind of like,

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Speaker 1: everyone loves it. It's fabulous. See it if you haven't

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Speaker 1: what other movies are on your list?

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Speaker 2: Jason, I love noir and the way it intersects with

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Speaker 2: erotic pictures.

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Speaker 1: So wait, can we pause really quick just just to

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Speaker 1: pick out noir a little bit. When I was going

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Speaker 1: through the list of like what do people find really

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Speaker 1: have to see the number of films that came up

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Speaker 1: from the forties in this noir era that have no

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Speaker 1: actual sex scenes, and yet people were like, but you're

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Speaker 1: sweating under the collar, Like I think that genre really

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Speaker 1: especially if you think about during the Hayes Code, which

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Speaker 1: for those who don't know what the time in Hollywood

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Speaker 1: where they really tap down on like what could be

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Speaker 1: shown and seen and said within movies, sex off the table,

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Speaker 1: Gaze off the table, like a lot of stuff couldn't

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Speaker 1: be done. Uh, Noir is where we kept sex alive

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Speaker 1: on cinema, and so it's interesting to me that years later,

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Speaker 1: when we could be doing pretty much anything with the

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Speaker 1: not rating code out there. Uh, that's the genre that

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Speaker 1: you grab back toward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I love a genre. I love the genre.

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Speaker 2: I love the detective genre. I love crime.

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Speaker 1: I love the.

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Speaker 2: Idea of of vulnerability and weakness, you know. I love

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Speaker 2: the way that that sex can both be a key

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Speaker 2: to you know, a bond between two people, like in Bound,

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Speaker 2: where it's just it's beyond sex. Really, it's it's more

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Speaker 2: like it's it's like again, it's like resonating with a

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Speaker 2: person on a particular physical level that lets you know

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Speaker 2: that there's trust and there's acceptance here, and it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's it's beyond something that can be understood.

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Speaker 2: Like to me, like Bound is about acceptance explicitly, you

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Speaker 2: know you, I accept you as this person right, as

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Speaker 2: this true person. And that is also like the flip

426
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Speaker 2: side of that coin, the cutting edge of that blade

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Speaker 2: on the other side is manip I see you, I

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Speaker 2: see the weakness that you have for this, and I'm

429
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: going to use it. And I think there's something like

430
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: really exciting to me about those kind of stories. So

431
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: I'm going to start with Fatal Attraction. I think the

432
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: kind of you know, the grand dom erotic thriller of

433
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: the great period of erotic thrillers in the eighties, director

434
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: by Adrian Lyne. Michael Douglas plays Dan, this attorney who

435
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: has an affair with this woman Alex who's a book

436
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 2: editor when his family is away, and then he very

437
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: kind of coldly breaks it off with her after a weekend,

438
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: and she refuses to be discarded in this way, and

439
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: it is a it's a very human performance really about

440
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: a woman who is has an undiagnosed mental illness that

441
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: she's dealing with right, but it's also about a man

442
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: who thinks that he can just do anything in this

443
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: world in this way. You know, I can just go

444
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: around and kind of bull in a china shop and

445
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: wreck things and walk away from it and it's never

446
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: going to touch me because I'm this powerful, successful lawyer

447
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 2: and everything's fine. And everything is not fine because Alex

448
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: Will refuses to let it go. And it's both horrific

449
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: like it really does. Yeah, I mean it goes to

450
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: a place of almost comical like horror Michael Myers type ending,

451
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: but on the way there it gets into these incredibly

452
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: interesting areas of you know, of rejection, of empathy, of

453
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 2: respecting other people, how to respect other people how, you know,

454
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: it explores these interesting areas of the way men manipulate

455
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: to get what they want and then pretend they never

456
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: did that, you know. And there is a wonderful Catharsis

457
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: as she is spinning out, you know, over refusing to

458
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: just be like, Okay, well this is one of those

459
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: things he lied to me. But it's fine, no, fuck

460
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: that shit. I'm gonna make your life hell. And you know,

461
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: there's there's a lot of uh interviews with Glenn Closer.

462
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: She says, you know, men still come up to me

463
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 2: and say thank you for saving my marriage, you know,

464
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 2: And maybe I was thinking about having an affair and

465
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, forget it. I'm gonna

466
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: stay with my wife and kancy to that.

467
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: And you know, I think the ending is.

468
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: In retrospect, it's almost like comically exploitative of the horror genre.

469
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: But it's just like a fantastically interesting and powerful film

470
00:28:53,080 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: that treats Alex even as a person who is who

471
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: is struggling, you know, with her mental health, really like

472
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: in a real way, treats her as a person who

473
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: should not just be manipulated and used.

474
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: You only feel bad for the wife.

475
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: Tremendously interesting, visceral, and sexy and sexy film, at least

476
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: in the beginning. You know, a great movie.

477
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: I love Fatal Attraction, and I do think it's just

478
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: sort of the wife that you feel bad for because

479
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: she's completely innocent in this. You're like, man, you made

480
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: your own bed. Quick question, what do you make of

481
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: the fact that Fatal Attraction and Wall Street come out

482
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: in the same year. And if you think about Wall

483
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: Street being greed is good. Here's a powerful guy who's

484
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: just kind of again Bull and China shopping his way

485
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: through life. Very different outcome than what happens in Fatal Attraction,

486
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: both starring Michael Douglass.

487
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a snapshot of a moment

488
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: in time, isn't it. You know, a period when this

489
00:29:53,640 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: is a period where financial misdeeds were getting so word

490
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: of punished, but not really. You had like characters like

491
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: Ivan Boski and others who were just playing god with

492
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: the economy, maybe doing six months in a federal prison

493
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: and then and then kind of like skidding away on

494
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: this like trail of oil and grime. And I think

495
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: that there is there is something really encapsulating about those

496
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: two pictures as different perspectives on the white guy power

497
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: of the era, you know, in the different ways that

498
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: it can be affected.

499
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: You know.

500
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: My next movie is I think a you know, a

501
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: pretty standard ward is a Body Heat, written by Lawrence Kasden,

502
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: his first directorial, outing after co writing Empire Strikes Back

503
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: and working on Raiders of the Lost Arc. People were

504
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: the studio was not sure he could do it. This

505
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: is this is complex material. So there's a talk about

506
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: movies where you could feel the humidity. This is set

507
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: in Florida during a heat wave. Everybody is sweating, sweat

508
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: and sweat and sweat and fanning themselves all the time.

509
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: Ned a kind of good looking himbo local lawyer runs

510
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: into this woman, Maddie Kathleen Turner, who is this married

511
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: woman who is married to a rich guy and a

512
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: dangerous guy. Clearly, like there's this feeling immediately that this

513
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: woman's trouble but of course Ned can't resist. They begin

514
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 2: an affair and Matt Maddie convinces Ned to kill her

515
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: husband for and like, oh well, and then we'll take

516
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: you know, we'll take the insurance money and the inhurance

517
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: will run away together, and he does it. And guess

518
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: who's the patsy who gets set up by to take

519
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: the entire fall And again, this is a movie that

520
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: I saw way too young and was not able to

521
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: separate from the sexual material for a while, but then

522
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: when I finally was able to again, I love. I

523
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: love the kind of story that is a person using

524
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: the thing that the only things people see you for

525
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: you're sexy, right, and then using it to get what

526
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 2: you want and being like fuck all, y'all, I'm out, bye's.

527
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: And it is extremely rewarding to watch Matt Maddie just

528
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: bamboozle this stupid idiot into doing exactly what she wants

529
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: in exactly the right way so that she can take

530
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: the money and leave. And it's fantastic. And the and

531
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: the slow dawning of Ned's played by William Hurt as

532
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: he begins as he like, there's a moment where way

533
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: too ladies like, oh my God, am I getting set

534
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: up for this.

535
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: Where you're like, yeah, you fuck an idiot?

536
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's fantastic. Love the movie. It's just you know,

537
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: it's like if you like Double Indemnity, you'll love this.

538
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was just gonna say I really appreciate about

539
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: these films, particularly for the women who get to I

540
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: think like men are often told like beautiful women as

541
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: a prize. Like we used to call the trophy collectors

542
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: in my twenties. We would be like these guys who

543
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: they was really not at all about the person they

544
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: were with. They just wanted to showcase a woman to

545
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: their friends. And I think oftentimes in these like sexual

546
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: mind game movies, we get these women who could be

547
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: seen as props. And you know Kathleen Turner's other famous

548
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: characters Jessica Rabbit. Yeah, and she does a little bit

549
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: of this too. It's but in that movie she chooses

550
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: the nice guy, which I really just love and appreciate.

551
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: I think there's there is something deeply not just soul satisfying,

552
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: but like makes you giddy to watch and be like

553
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: that's a person, and for the whole film to sort

554
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: of be like what you see is not always what

555
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: you get with a human being and to allow space.

556
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times to the women who

557
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: play these people are often shoved into roles that don't

558
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: allow them to showcase the full range of Again, Jennifer

559
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: Tilly from Bound was in this situation and so yeah,

560
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: Kathleen getting this date. I didn't realize this was her debut.

561
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: That's incredible. Yeah, just a breakout role totally.

562
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: My next one is very similar in terms of the

563
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: kind of content. The Last Deduction maybe the Last Great

564
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four directed by John Dahl debut on HBO,

565
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: which probably costs this film multiple Award nominations and not

566
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: certainly Oscar nominations for probably doll probably screenwriter Steve Foransick,

567
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: and you know, most most definitely Linda Fiorentino. The plot

568
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: is this kind of New York area telemarketer Bridge. It

569
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: strong arms her husband into a drug deal, takes the

570
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: almost a million dollars and leaves. He sends like an

571
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: investigator after her to kind of find her, and she

572
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: fucks this guy's life up. Say, she ties this man

573
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: into fucking knots and and sets him up to take

574
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: the fall. And the thing I like about this movie

575
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 2: is in a different way. Linda Fierte's Bridget is almost

576
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: like a She's just unrelenting. She's like, I want the money.

577
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 2: I deserve it. She's a fucking shark like it's it's

578
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: there's a different there's a sociopathy to her that is

579
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: almost that kind of like a times borders on like

580
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: I guess like male nightmare, like the kind of woman

581
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 2: that they would you know, well, what if she's locking

582
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: these horror stories, right, you know that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah,

583
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: but done in a way that is that you're just

584
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: so along for the ride. You want to see her

585
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: get away with it. You want to see her fool

586
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: all these people, and you never for a second feel

587
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: like that's not her money. She doesn't deserve it.

588
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: She's earned it. It's definitely like a Hannibalesque situation where

589
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: you're like, this is the smartest person in the room,

590
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: so therefore she deserves whatever she gets. Jared it and

591
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: if you're at you're in And maybe this is a

592
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: bad this is a bad viewer thing. But I think

593
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: when I see guys who are way out of their

594
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 1: women's league, I'm constantly like, come on, guy, come on,

595
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: this lady hitting on you so unabashedly, like really in

596
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: your face about it. And maybe it's because we have

597
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: so many frumpy, like I'm emotionally unavailable men with very

598
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: hot women in our TV America that like it becomes

599
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: so commonplace that when you really get to see it,

600
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: like flexed in a different direction, you're like, hell yeah, lady,

601
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: tell that guy. It's deeply satisfying. And I also think

602
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: this really is smoke makes everything sexier. Don't smoke as

603
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: bad for your lungs, not in real life, but in

604
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: a movie. Oh my god, it's Oh she smokes very sexily.

605
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 2: Also, like Fiorentino was, she was passed over for for

606
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 2: Basic Instinct, I think she was up for several other

607
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 2: kind of movies of the genre of the era. And

608
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 2: so when the when the script for this went into production,

609
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: she was like I want this. She like flew or

610
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 2: drove to the director's house. I was like, I want

611
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: this role. I want it. WHOA, I can do this,

612
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: I want it. A fun note about this movie too,

613
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: is it was supposed to be like a Skinemax type film,

614
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: was it? So the executive saw the daily and got

615
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: and We're like, do they think they're making something smart

616
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: and artie and went to the set and made everybody

617
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: promise that they were not that they had no like

618
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: artistic pretensions and were not doing anything interesting. You're just

619
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 2: making a softcore film, And everybody promised, and it was

620
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 2: all lies that they made this very interesting neo noir

621
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: that is like the ultimate expression of the fevvitography.

622
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: Are ill stop that, Yeah.

623
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: You're not taking this seriously. You're not taking the material seriously,

624
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: are you? Next is Bound, which we talked about, which

625
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: I love, And then finally I mean Eat Mama Tambien,

626
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: Lfonse Coronne, Gail Garcia, Bernald Diego, Luna Marabel Verdu just

627
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: two Mexican friends from a kind of different slightly different

628
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: class is in Mexico, middle class Verus upper class, meet

629
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 2: their friend's wife, older woman, and invite her kind of

630
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 2: like on the spur of the moment on a road

631
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: trip to this beach, and things just fucking pop off

632
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: in ways that are you know, vulnerable, are just dynamic,

633
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: are sexy. It's about for these young men, it's about

634
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: an awakening of a part of themselves that, unlike you know,

635
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: a lot of other experiences they're sharing with each other

636
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 2: there is both this kind of excitement of experiencing these things,

637
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, with Luisa, but also the rising of jealousy.

638
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 2: It comes up and it's just it's wonderful and it's

639
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: like it and it's like these things that happen when

640
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: you're young, where maybe it's a weekend, maybe it's a day,

641
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: maybe it's spending a few hours with someone where you

642
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 2: never forget it, right, is the kind of life event

643
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 2: that you wonder, where could this have gone if things

644
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: had gone differently? Yeah, And it's like that in a film.

645
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: It's just.

646
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: One of my favorites of all time.

647
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: It's one of those films that puts you on edge

648
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: because you absolutely have no idea where it's going. Ever,

649
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: you're like, what are we doing? It's it's and it's

650
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: an interesting love triangle dynamic because no point of the

651
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: triangle is really available for this, Like she's married, so

652
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: the two ten in between the friends, there's not You're

653
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: neither one of you is gonna really win this out.

654
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: And then the friends are so close, like at one

655
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: point you're like gay, like are we are we throwupleing?

656
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

657
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: Right, yes, the tension is between everybody at all time,

658
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: and yet you know there's at all times, yeah, yeah,

659
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: but the shortness of the day and the like it

660
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: leaves you with such an intense impact, even the like

661
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: house party scene, which is kind of what stays with me.

662
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: Them of the beach and dancing at the bar, I

663
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: think are the iconic moments. But I think what's interesting

664
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: is for something that is so like erotically charged, the

665
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: fact that they're talking so much about class and the

666
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: way that plays into that, like who can you be

667
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: like sexually intimate with who sees you as a viable

668
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: partner and what happens when you step outside of that bubble.

669
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 1: Found that whole conversation really really interesting. I love this movie.

670
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: Alfonso does it again. It's it's like, it's gorgeous and

671
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,959
Speaker 1: weird and fun. It's a great movie.

672
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 2: There's an aspect to that in a lot of films

673
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: that we discussed here, Padula films on your list too,

674
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: that I think there's something about the way sex transcends

675
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: can for a moment, transcend class distinctions. You know this movie,

676
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: there's narrator, and the narrator keeps explaining like yes, it's

677
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: like we're talking like this is two young people and

678
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: this beautiful, vibrant, older woman. And it appears like it's

679
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: about sex, and it's about youth and it's about you know,

680
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: all of these kind of flighty things. No, this is

681
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: about death, This is about class. This is about what

682
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: role you can inhabit in society and how other people

683
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: see you, and the way sex can pierce that for

684
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: a moment or for all time in the in bound

685
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, forever, right, but sometimes only for a period

686
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: of time, right. And you know, there's something really powerful

687
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: in that idea, and it's a thing that in the

688
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: way these characters are allowed to kind of step out

689
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: of these roles and step into a relationship with each

690
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 2: other in these different ways, it's almost as if it

691
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: allows you to step away from society and see, Okay,

692
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: this is the landscape, this is I'm gonna end up

693
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 2: like this. I'm going to end up with a person

694
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 2: like this. And I see that, I see how set

695
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: this all is for all of us. And so let's

696
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: take this moment to enjoy this where we can forget

697
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 2: about all that for a period.

698
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you know, as you're saying, I'm thinking about

699
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 1: like literally the shedding of clothes and identity as a

700
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: way to get to like the heart of a character,

701
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: and I do. I think particularly when it's a genuine

702
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: like love romantic connection as opposed to the mind game

703
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: angle of it, you definitely get more of that. But

704
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: even in the mind game angle of it, it's you know,

705
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: to your earlier point, it's I've I've stripped you to

706
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: the core of yourself. There's now no pretense I know

707
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: enough about you to maneuver you across the board as

708
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: I need to. And the romantic ones it's it's sort

709
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: of this. You don't have to hide who you are.

710
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: We could be honest with each other and find that

711
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: connection and love. And I think this to me is

712
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,479
Speaker 1: the reason why sex on film is so important. Maybe

713
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: we take a break and come back and talk about

714
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: modern day sex on screen and what's going on with that.

715
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 2: Let's do that correct and we're at let's talk about,

716
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 2: you know, the current state of sex on screen. We

717
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 2: live some notable Yeah, we live in interesting times. There's

718
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: been some notable sex forward contact sex education for one,

719
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 2: which plays it in a more kind of exploratory talkie way, Euphoria,

720
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: which I think definitely plumbs the dark edges, and there's

721
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: a lot to talk about there about what is and

722
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: what is not happening offscreen and on production in the

723
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: in the creation of these episodes Wuthering Heights, which I

724
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: think we both.

725
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,439
Speaker 1: Agree kind of sterile for yeah, yeah.

726
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: And then films like Challengers, which I think is one

727
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: of the great modern entrants in the genre that again

728
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: explore this idea of seeing someone for who they are

729
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: and being able to share that for a moment, not

730
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: for all time, but for a moment. Your thoughts about

731
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: like where this genre is right now?

732
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think that with the rise of Marvel movies,

733
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 1: and this is anything if Marvel is a family centered,

734
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: like for all people space, so it makes sense that

735
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: there is not a lot of on camera like sex

736
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: scenes within that space. But I do think with the

737
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: rise of those films and their super popularity and the

738
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: fact that we saw much smaller, riskier films get less

739
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: funding and less access, I think we saw a significant

740
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: dip in on screen representations of sex. I think culturally

741
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: we had a change when Luca Guardino came out with

742
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: Call Me by Your Name and which literally folks were like, okay,

743
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: but did you see the Peach team was ever It

744
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: was insane you get. A few years later, Girls Trip

745
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: kind of comes back in with like sex as a

746
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: comedy element in a big way, which is the thing

747
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: I think we also lost, if you think about the way,

748
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: and maybe for a good thing, because comedies that were

749
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: tackling sex were doing hit horribly in the eighties. We

750
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: have very few good comedic representations of like sex prompts

751
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: from that era. So it was nice to see it

752
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: brought back in a nice way. And now I think,

753
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. I am firmly a millennial. For

754
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: a while people were telling me gen Z not into sex, outscreating.

755
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: Gen Z seems to be saying, what are you talking about?

756
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: Were fully against it, We're not fully for it. We

757
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: would just like it to be meaningful, either story wise

758
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 1: or culturally. And so by this I mean like Baby

759
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: Girl when Rosie and I Want saw a Baby Girl. Again,

760
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: A lot of young people in our theater, and maybe

761
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: it's because we live in Los Angeles's as a movie town,

762
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: are totally open to our perception being skewed in that point.

763
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: But it seems to me with shows like Euphoria, which

764
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: shows like such sex Education, which shows like Heart Shoppers,

765
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: which again is not necessarily hyper steamy, but is dealing

766
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: definitely with like that coming of age response and reaction

767
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: to sex. It seems to me that the kids are

768
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: cute in and they're like, listen, we're curious, we want

769
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: to know, we don't mind seeing it. It should be

770
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: done in a way that is. I don't know if

771
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: I want to say I don't get too much in

772
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: the nuance of it, but I do think we're starting

773
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: to see like a comeback okay, wuthering heights aside, if

774
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: we look at our baby girls, we look at our pillions,

775
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: I think we're starting to see a back into that space.

776
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: And maybe it's because a lot of films are not

777
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: being made in America anymore and are not necessarily.

778
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: I think that's part of It's fair.

779
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think we're starting to get a more

780
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: global cultural perspective on sex in our films, which is

781
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 1: pretty exciting because we live in a very uh sterile space.

782
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: I think there's a reason we kind of gravitated away

783
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: from sex on screen so much. How about you, how

784
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: are you feeling about where we currently are with sex

785
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: on screen? I agree with you.

786
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: I think we're I think we're finding a new kind

787
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: of water level for sex on screen. I think it's

788
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: been an interesting period, not just because of you know,

789
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 2: I think there's been a clash of various forces that

790
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: have made sex on screen fraud in ways that it

791
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 2: always was right, but like because now we are talking

792
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: about how fraud it is. People have been scared away

793
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 2: at different levels, whether it's producers, directors, studios, et cetera.

794
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: You know, And I think I think there's several things

795
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: going on here. First of all, you know, we are

796
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 2: you know, American films that have been obsessed with IP

797
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 2: and there's been this an almost a run of basically

798
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 2: sexless material at the top of box offices for a

799
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: long time. That's one. I think that that is an

800
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: expression of discomfort with sexual conversations in America. I think

801
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 2: a lot of that has to do with, you know, honestly,

802
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: a lot of it has to do with, like women

803
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 2: voicing their opinions on what is what consent is people

804
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: talking about stuff like that and men being like, wait,

805
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: that's what that's a conversation. I think that there's I

806
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 2: think the rise of the avail ability of internet porn

807
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: has made people feel have a different kind of relationship

808
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: to sex where it's now something you can access all

809
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: the time, but it's also something that you don't talk

810
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 2: about with other people. Right, So I think that the

811
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: kind of I think sex on screen for a period,

812
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: for a certain generation, raised on the availability of that

813
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: material have maybe felt like, oh, this doesn't belong here.

814
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: This belongs you know, on my phone at night when

815
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: nobody's around, not here. And then I think, you know,

816
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 2: with movies like there's been a kind of a re

817
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: litigation of the way certain movies have been produced that

818
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: have hopefully given people pause about the way sex is

819
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: produced for screen. Blue is the warmest color, I think

820
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 2: is maybe the prime example of this, a film that

821
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 2: is impossible to like, it's impossible to disconnect from the

822
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 2: exploitative way it was produced and shot. Yeah, and it

823
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: And I think that there are several movies like this, Uh,

824
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, Last Tango in Paris is another one in

825
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: which you know, scenes were filmed in a way that

826
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 2: we're surprising and were non consensual to the people involved

827
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: in it. And this is not the kind of subject

828
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: matter that you can just kind of like hand wave away. Yeah,

829
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 2: And I think to directorial malfeasons, yeah, it becomes it

830
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: becomes a direct The product on screen becomes a direct

831
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 2: like downstream effect of bad actions, and it's just impossible,

832
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: at least for me to like disconnect that. I feel

833
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: crime movies were like, Okay, this guy's a jerk, but

834
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,720
Speaker 2: he made a good movie, right this sho that doesn't

835
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 2: work with this kind of stuff.

836
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: No, you can really only be a jerkin and quote

837
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: make a good movie when it's like no one died

838
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 1: or was assaulted or harassed on this film, Like yes,

839
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: like this guy, you know what I forgot the one

840
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: where the director just kept trash can and yelled a lot. Okay,

841
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: not appropriate, but we're okay. I think you know. This

842
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: is a young woman solo, you know, for those who

843
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: don't know, in nine and a half weeks, it's really

844
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: about a film about a young woman being seduced by

845
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: an older man. There's been nine half weeks together in

846
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: this house that's his, and they explore each other sexually

847
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: for those nine and a half weeks. It's it's raunchy

848
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: and provocative. I saw in college literally right before that,

849
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: I only want call him allegation before she shared her

850
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: story in full, and it was harrowing to be like, oh,

851
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: that's not a performance. That's an attack, Like right, that's

852
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: on screen, that's someone right, that's you're watching her be

853
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: actually brutalized. It is jarring and horrific to sort of

854
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: come to that conclusion. And I think two in Blue

855
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: is the warmest color you know. Here you have these

856
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: two young actresses, it's a lesbian film. Tumblr was just

857
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: becoming an active space for a lot of people, and

858
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: the lesbians gravitated towards this film because it's two young

859
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: and full women falling in love. Why wouldn't you? And

860
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: then you start to hear the stories you see them.

861
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: You know, this film was presented at can and the

862
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: two actors aren't literally sobbing through the press out that

863
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: they're so stressed and tired and have been so emotionally

864
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: abused throughout the entire both the making of and the

865
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: promotion of the film. It's to me anyway, it makes

866
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: it really difficult to revisit these spaces. I just don't

867
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: want to see anyone being actually hurt. It's really it's

868
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: really upsetting. But I think too, like it's so brave

869
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: when I think about like Shelley duval H and her

870
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: experiences and the shine Yeah, like when women's come and

871
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: speak out and share the stories. You know, even Meryl

872
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 1: Streep talked about getting us a prize slap in Kramer

873
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 1: versus Kramer because what Meryl Street. I mean, she wasn't

874
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: Meryl Streep as you know her now yet, but like

875
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: that's the woman who could act. If you had told

876
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: her what was gonna happen, she could be prepared. So

877
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: I guess to say all this, Yeah, it's those movies

878
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: have to kind of like for me anyway, go on

879
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: a shelf somewhere. They don't get to be part of

880
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: the cool club of Wow, isn't it great to have

881
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: X on screen?

882
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a very generational kind of mindset of

883
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: directors right that. It is a direct through line from

884
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 2: Kubrick The Shining Shelley Duvall's experience filming The Shining to

885
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: blue is the warmest color. Where it's like anything to

886
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 2: get the art right, anything to get the moment, to

887
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: get the emotion, whether it's the director throwing a glass

888
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: across the room and screaming and then they you know,

889
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: them not knowing they're shooting, or like these tricks and

890
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 2: we kind of logged these tricks in retrospect sometimes in

891
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: certain filming spaces where you're like, oh wow, you know,

892
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 2: like nobody knew he was going to do that, and

893
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 2: he did it, and look at this. It doesn't work

894
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: with it. Yeah, but with this kind of material, I'm sorry,

895
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: it doesn't work like it's it makes you complicit in it,

896
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 2: in the exploitation, in the exhaustion, in the vulnerability, the

897
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 2: fact that you're now watching like people that have potentially

898
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 2: been coerced in some form of fashion into filming a

899
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: scene that they were not ready for, or they did

900
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 2: not know the cameras rolling, whatever the case may be,

901
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: and in that way like I just can't I'm out

902
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 2: sorry to your point goes on a shelf. Now yeah, yeah,

903
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 2: that's this is not like this is yes, it's over.

904
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: And I think what's crazy to me?

905
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 2: We're not telling you about it any no.

906
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 1: And I think what's crazy to me is the fact that,

907
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: like with Inmacy coordinators and the amount of really great

908
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: sexual movies and TV shows we've been seeing, I hated Rivalries,

909
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: Intimacy Coordinator has done a ton of interviews about what

910
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: her process was like and how she set that up.

911
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: Baby Girl. They talked about their intimacy coordinator and what

912
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: they would say the fact that like, oh no, we

913
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: could then become collaborators in a choreography that allows you

914
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: to feel all of the same things of like oh wow,

915
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: this is hot, but everyone leaves safe and whole. It

916
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: just seems so easy to me to like trust your performers,

917
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 1: which is a big thing when I was coming out

918
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: of film school, you know, right at the start of

919
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: Me too, really and it was a big thing that

920
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: they kept pushing us as directors to really focus on.

921
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: It's like, if you don't trust your performers, don't hire them.

922
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: You don't need to surprise and shock and slap and

923
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: throw cold water in people's faces to get them to

924
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: act if they can actually act, Just hire good actors.

925
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: And it's yeah, I think it's upsetting. You know, we

926
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: did see one of our major agencies drop all of

927
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: their intimacy coordinators from repers late last year. Yeah, and

928
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: I think you know twos we're seeing over at Paramount

929
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: the hiring of a lot of people who stopped getting

930
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: work after me too, in a somewhat surprising, somewhat distressing

931
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: turn of events. I do hope that Hollywood as a

932
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: whole is able to continue this movement toward both in

933
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: missy coordinators and you know, just safe artistic practices to

934
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: get because I do think these things are important to have.

935
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: I think sex is a human thing. I think art

936
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: is meant to reflect our human existence. I think sanitized

937
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: films without sex, not all, but just as an entire

938
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: art medium would be really sad for us as viewers.

939
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: I think you miss something when you don't include sex

940
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: in your films as a whole. I just think we

941
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: also have to as an industry make it safe to

942
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: do that.

943
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jennifer Lawrence recently told Matt Rogers and Ponyang and

944
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 2: Culturisa's and Lost Culturisas that she didn't need one while

945
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: shooting Die My Love with Robert Pattins because he's not pervy.

946
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: And to me, that is like, that's about trust, That's

947
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 2: about knowing your performer that you're performing with and understanding

948
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 2: that there is a baseline of communication that everybody is

949
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 2: going to be okay. And I think that there's this

950
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: kind of misconception about the intimacy coordinator that they're there

951
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: to it's just kind of like wokeism, you know, like

952
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 2: this kind of morality, Yeah, morality police, when it's really

953
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 2: just about getting the performers to the level that Jennifer

954
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 2: and Robert are on right where they know each other,

955
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 2: they've worked together, you know, they've known each other for

956
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: a while, and they understand, Okay, here's what we're comfortable,

957
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 2: here's what we're going to do. It's a person to

958
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 2: allow that to happen on a set where people don't

959
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 2: know each other, they're maybe not comfortable communicating these things,

960
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 2: and it exists to create the thing that Jennifer and

961
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 2: Robert were just at, like, that's what you want. You

962
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 2: want to create trust and safety, And I agree with you,

963
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 2: and I hope, I hope it comes back. I will say,

964
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 2: you know, from a to try and think positively about

965
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 2: the recent developments, I think it's a it's a tacit

966
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 2: this kind of slide back, it's a tacit acknowledgment that

967
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: this has been effective, that me too has been effective,

968
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 2: that first second third wave feminism has been effective, that

969
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: the gear rights movement writ large has been effective in

970
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: including voices in a larger conversation about the role of

971
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,919
Speaker 2: people in society, the role of sex between those people

972
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 2: in society, and the way we depict those things hopefully responsibly,

973
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: and the fact that we're turning away from it. It's

974
00:59:54,720 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: not great, but it's it's almost like saying they.

975
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: Were right, definitely, And I think you could see that

976
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: in the way, yeah, yeah, the way that they're pushing

977
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: the envelope into you know, not just vanilla sex, but

978
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: now we're getting into like a lot of badas like

979
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: relate like representation and film from Baby Girl to Pillion

980
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: two Wuthering Heights has an entire like dog play scene.

981
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: I think we're we're pushing at the envelope and and maybe,

982
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: you know, maybe we all owe John Waters just a

983
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: little letter of things. So thanks for being weird and

984
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: making the crazy out there films allowed all of us

985
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: to come here and make are a little slightly more

986
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: grounded films. Yeah, I think taking it out of the

987
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: indie scene and into the main public, like you know,

988
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: well funded global theatrical releases. When it comes to Pillion

989
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: and Wuthering Heights, you know, to me, it's an exciting possibility.

990
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: We are seeing a strong rise in fascism globally, so

991
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: we'll they keep going forward. We are not sure, but

992
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: I think it's a sign of a healthy fighting community

993
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: when we're like, hey, we're proudly showing sex on screen

994
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: and we're talking about it as a culture.

995
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 2: Uh.

996
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: I do think we are currently living under a very healthy,

997
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: artistically speaking film industry, and I just I'm hoping we

998
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 1: continue to move in that direction.

999
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 2: Same here. Well. Coming up on the next few weeks

1000
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: on Extra Vision, we're going to cover Daredevil.

1001
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: We're gonna come with Darth.

1002
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 2: Maurel and Moore, thanks it for this episode. Thanks for listening.

1003
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 2: Ma x Ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young

1004
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

1005
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman. Our

1006
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 2: supervising producer is Abusafar. Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean

1007
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 2: Jonathan and Fay Wag. A theme song is by Brian Vasquez,

1008
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 2: with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kauffman. Special thanks to

1009
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi Our Discorde

1010
01:01:59,480 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 2: moderate the