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Speaker 3: I've always looked at any sector that I've been interested
Speaker 3: in as how do I get in there and find
Speaker 3: my place in this space?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: I think, especially for a lot of us that come
Speaker 3: from our communities, you don't see yourself in certain situations,
Speaker 3: so you think it's not for you, right or you think, oh, man,
Speaker 3: I don't have a background that matches what I've seen traditionally,
Speaker 3: So let me go look somewhere else and where I've
Speaker 3: kind of always approached it like, well, if I don't
Speaker 3: see me in a certain area, that's an opportunity. Let
Speaker 3: me go in there and make a space for me,
Speaker 3: and I can bring other people with me. Now I
Speaker 3: can build a motor around what I do because nobody
Speaker 3: here can can can match my skill set.
Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is Black Tech, Green Money.
Speaker 1: I want to introduce you to some of the biggest names,
Speaker 1: some of the brightest minds and brilliant ideas.
Speaker 2: If you're black and building.
Speaker 1: For simply using text to secure your back, this podcast
Speaker 1: is feel Andrew Hawkins aka Hawk, is a former NFL
Speaker 1: wide receiver for having played six seasons in the league
Speaker 1: with teams like the Bengals, the Browns, and the Patriots.
Speaker 1: Today's immedia personality and co founder of status Pro, an
Speaker 1: athlete led technology company which makes software for training and
Speaker 1: consumer entertainment. Status Pro has raised more than five million
Speaker 1: dollars in both of enviable list of infastors like Lebron, James, Yo, Miosak,
Speaker 1: mav Card Drake, and others. Post company is set to
Speaker 1: release NFL Pro Era, a VR game from Metaquest in PlayStation,
Speaker 1: the first officially licensed NFL VR title. I has talked
Speaker 1: with so many games becoming more lifelike. How important is
Speaker 1: real player data to the experience of gameplay?
Speaker 3: I think if we're going to drill in on what
Speaker 3: you authenticity looks like in a gaming environment, it is important,
Speaker 3: you know, for people to really experience the speed of
Speaker 3: certain things. Now, obviously we want to slow it down
Speaker 3: for people to have fun, that's the chief goal of
Speaker 3: anything we do from a gaming product standpoint, but the
Speaker 3: ability to ramp up and really see how fast decisions
Speaker 3: need to be made when you're talking about an immersive
Speaker 3: world like virtual reality, we think it's super important. Right,
Speaker 3: So we're gonna give you all the bells and whistles
Speaker 3: of the feeling you get in the tunnel when you're
Speaker 3: running out onto the field, and all the hoop lie
Speaker 3: and the kind of man, what if moments that people
Speaker 3: think about when they think of playing professional sports. But
Speaker 3: we're also gonna give you the actual data on the
Speaker 3: other side of it too, And I think it just
Speaker 3: helps rope in the entire loop of authenticity that we
Speaker 3: kind of preach a status.
Speaker 1: Pro does that mean more than just the numbers, But Also,
Speaker 1: if a QB is slower, then the player in the
Speaker 1: game will actually be slower too.
Speaker 4: Yes, so it's something we'll build upon.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I mean, I think VR in
Speaker 3: itself is it's it's a it's an emerging tech, and
Speaker 3: so we understand that our game maybe the first time
Speaker 3: a lot of people even experience VR, right, and so
Speaker 3: we're trying to make sure the product matures alongside the consumer.
Speaker 3: But to your point, yeah, that I mean, there's really
Speaker 3: an endless amount of data that we can put into
Speaker 3: our AI, which we've done so in a.
Speaker 4: Very pointed way from.
Speaker 3: You know, what plays a specific team would run, what
Speaker 3: kind of defenses. This is a coach like to call, right,
Speaker 3: And we've had the luxury of building that AI and
Speaker 3: machine learning and from the very beginning, and so it's
Speaker 3: going to mature with the more data sets that are available,
Speaker 3: you know, and we use a number of those things,
Speaker 3: including player speeds and data. And to your point that,
Speaker 3: you know, when you embody a player, eventually you will
Speaker 3: match the attributes that they are as a player. And
Speaker 3: this first version we've kind of really draw down on
Speaker 3: you as the quarterback, so you will be the quarterback
Speaker 3: of your favorite team as opposed to taking on the
Speaker 3: attributes of other players.
Speaker 4: But that's absolutely in the pipeline.
Speaker 1: So every coach quarterback believes they could have made that
Speaker 1: pass at the quarterback blue, you know, on Sunday Football whatever,
Speaker 1: Monday Night football. Like, part of your effort, I believe
Speaker 1: is to help better understand what it takes to compete
Speaker 1: at the highest levels. You know, as you know, playing
Speaker 1: a first person game from a first person.
Speaker 2: Perspective, does this help solve that?
Speaker 1: Like, so all those people who believe, ah Man I
Speaker 1: could have made that, you know, does this help solve
Speaker 1: that problem for real athletes?
Speaker 4: I would say yes and no. I would say yes
Speaker 4: and no.
Speaker 3: I think we use it on the training side, right,
Speaker 3: so we could simulate that decision making for an NFL
Speaker 3: quarterback and things will move almost one to one at
Speaker 3: the speed that you would see in an actual game.
Speaker 3: But if if people had the ability to process information
Speaker 3: and make those decisions that way, they wouldn't need a
Speaker 3: VR game to feel what it's like to be a
Speaker 3: NFL quarterback, because you would be that right, And even
Speaker 3: by NFL quarterback standards, there are quarterbacks that are starting
Speaker 3: quarterbacks that can't make decisions and process as fast as
Speaker 3: Tom Brady, right. So it's definitely a sliding scale. And
Speaker 3: so you know, we can simulate that for elite level
Speaker 3: athletes to be able to get as close to a
Speaker 3: one to one experience as we can get. But I
Speaker 3: think for the gaming side of things, man, I mean,
Speaker 3: we want to have it fun.
Speaker 4: Like I said, that is our chief goal with that.
Speaker 4: And yeah, it'll be intense.
Speaker 3: You'll definitely get the feel of all the different factors
Speaker 3: that go in on every single play, and you will
Speaker 3: probably have a higher respect for quarterbacks.
Speaker 4: But if you're not having fun, you're not going to
Speaker 4: come back.
Speaker 3: So we definitely slow it down a little bit so
Speaker 3: that we can keep you coming back for more.
Speaker 1: So I've heard you say this a couple of times.
Speaker 1: You know that you really want to help keep people
Speaker 1: getting understanding for how fast the game moves for people
Speaker 1: who won't will never have that experience of being in
Speaker 1: a grid iron. Talk about if you can make it
Speaker 1: relatable to us, you know, how fast the game actually
Speaker 1: moves versus what we see sitting in the seats.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like I said, man, I'm gonna keep drilling
Speaker 3: down on this. The speed of the game is ridiculous, man,
Speaker 3: Like I mean, it's I would say, in snap second,
Speaker 3: you have to make decisions, and it's honestly even faster
Speaker 3: than that. So that's why you practice so much. You
Speaker 3: practice so much in a professional sports environment so that
Speaker 3: your instincts kick in and that way you can react
Speaker 3: even faster than it takes for you to cognitively think
Speaker 3: of what to do next. But in the gaming for everybody,
Speaker 3: I think the thing that you'll get most out of
Speaker 3: the experience that we're creating with NFL Pro Era is
Speaker 3: that you just really can see all the factors and
Speaker 3: it is very gratifying to make a play. It's gratifying
Speaker 3: to you know, complete a pass or throw a touchdown
Speaker 3: or get a first down when you consider all the
Speaker 3: different factors that are into a game.
Speaker 4: And so it won't be the speeds of an NFL game.
Speaker 3: And you have the ability to ramp it up or
Speaker 3: ramp it down, but again, all the different factors that
Speaker 3: go into each and every game, and the experience of
Speaker 3: the screaming fans. You get the high points, you get
Speaker 3: the huge dn coming right at you, and that's scary
Speaker 3: in and of itself.
Speaker 4: So you have to think.
Speaker 3: About what do I do now in the face of
Speaker 3: the most fearful looking human coming at me at car
Speaker 3: like speeds. Right, And so that's the really cool part
Speaker 3: is that that hasn't been democratized before and us being
Speaker 3: able to us being former athletes, and being able to
Speaker 3: put other people in those shoes is a really cool
Speaker 3: thing because you get to show people the experience that
Speaker 3: you have had your whole life and may even be
Speaker 3: a second nature to you.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this leap you've made, because there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of athletes who make the leap from professional
Speaker 1: sports into high tech, and so if you can give
Speaker 1: the bridge for us, like how you got here versus
Speaker 1: where you were, and we're going to talk about your
Speaker 1: sports career, but I want to talk about how you
Speaker 1: made that leap.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's a great question, and I think
Speaker 3: they all kind of tie in together. I would say,
Speaker 3: how I got to tech, you know, high tech where
Speaker 3: I'm at from my career was that I feel like
Speaker 3: in tech tech is you know, I talk about this
Speaker 3: democratizing and experience, and I think I've always looked at
Speaker 3: any sector that I've been interested in as how do
Speaker 3: I get in there and find my place in this space, right.
Speaker 3: I think, especially for a lot of us that come
Speaker 3: from our communities, you don't see yourself in certain situations,
Speaker 3: so you think it's not for you, right, or you think, oh, man,
Speaker 3: I don't have a background I'm at matches what I've
Speaker 3: seen traditionally, So let me go look somewhere else, and
Speaker 3: where I've kind of always approached it like, well, if
Speaker 3: I don't see me in a certain area, that's an opportunity.
Speaker 3: Let me go in there and make a space for me,
Speaker 3: and I could bring other people with me number one
Speaker 3: and number two. Now I can build a motor around
Speaker 3: what I do because nobody here can match my skill set.
Speaker 3: And so you know, when I was playing, it was
Speaker 3: that same thing. It was like I saw an opportunity
Speaker 3: that you know, I felt like me being an athlete
Speaker 3: and wanting to work in sports business. Even prior to
Speaker 3: me playing professional football, there was no value add from
Speaker 3: the fact that I was an athlete. There was nothing
Speaker 3: to say like, well, what about your experience makes it
Speaker 3: special here?
Speaker 4: And so I was like, I'm gonna have to create that.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to create a way to value the
Speaker 3: expertise to somebody who has seen this from the ground
Speaker 3: level and build a company that way, you know. And
Speaker 3: so that's what originally got me there, And as you
Speaker 3: would imagine, there was a long road of slowly putting
Speaker 3: the pieces together to get to where we are today.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you said that, because you know, we've
Speaker 1: heard these horror stories of athletes who you know, make
Speaker 1: a bunch of money and then they got boys who
Speaker 1: want to start businesses and invest in a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of real estate that don't get scoped out and do
Speaker 1: no due diligence and you know, rim shops and the
Speaker 1: whole thing. So can you talk about how, from your perspective,
Speaker 1: how athletes are getting smarter? Maybe it's the people around
Speaker 1: them so that they're making better decisions with their capital
Speaker 1: and to deploy that for actual wealth generation when they're
Speaker 1: off the field.
Speaker 3: I think the enormous changed. And I think, you know,
Speaker 3: that was always even my goal with what I was doing.
Speaker 3: I wanted to, you know, hopefully show other people that
Speaker 3: may be in a similar situation of mind to be like, well,
Speaker 3: if he can do that with his resources, or he
Speaker 3: can do that with his stature of like profile of athletes,
Speaker 3: imagine what I could do with mine, right, And I
Speaker 3: think you see in a shift where before it was
Speaker 3: we want our athletes just to be athletes. We want
Speaker 3: them to focus on football, focus on basketball, focus on baseball,
Speaker 3: track boxing, whatever it is, and that's what we That
Speaker 3: is the norm, and anybody who does anything outside of
Speaker 3: that was looked at sideways. Well, I think now in
Speaker 3: this age of more than an athlete and a lot
Speaker 3: of the work that has been done and shown by athletes,
Speaker 3: from them being activists, them being investors, them going back
Speaker 3: to school and all these things. Now you look at
Speaker 3: an athlete that only does their sport and you kind
Speaker 3: of look at them sideways, like, yo, what are you
Speaker 3: waiting on?
Speaker 4: You better get going. This window is closing.
Speaker 3: And I think you know that kind of maturation of
Speaker 3: what the norm is for an athlete league has shifted
Speaker 3: a lot of things for the industry.
Speaker 1: What's making the norm change? Is it just representation to
Speaker 1: people like you?
Speaker 3: I think everything develops. I think everything people get smarter
Speaker 3: in any scenario. So if you look at me right,
Speaker 3: like I think people sometimes think, oh man, this is
Speaker 3: a really smart guy because he was able to do
Speaker 3: certain things. And I am smart. I do believe that.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, I come from a family
Speaker 3: of athletes. I'm a third generation athlete, right. My grandfather
Speaker 3: was a boxer. My dad played Division one football and
Speaker 3: signed D one. My older brother played ten years in
Speaker 3: the National Football I got cousins, And so I've seen
Speaker 3: those horror stories you've talked about. I've seen them up
Speaker 3: close and personal. And I've always approached sport like a business, right,
Speaker 3: And I've seen where a sport could use somebody up
Speaker 3: and there's nothing to show for it, you know. And
Speaker 3: so for me, when I went through my experience, it
Speaker 3: was like, well, I'm gonna do it this way. And
Speaker 3: because I seen somebody else make mistakes, I can kind
Speaker 3: of take those answers to the test and re craft
Speaker 3: it for myself, and I think for everybody else it's
Speaker 3: much the same. And now when you look at your peers,
Speaker 3: you could see the benefit of it. Like my goal
Speaker 3: after five years of playing, I'm coming up on five
Speaker 3: years of after retirement, I wanted to I wanted people
Speaker 3: to know me and not know that I played professional football.
Speaker 3: That was a goal that I had when I retired,
Speaker 3: you know. And it's really cool now for people to
Speaker 3: say that and see like, oh, man, I didn't know
Speaker 3: he played in the NFL.
Speaker 4: That's crazy, right, that's because I'm hitting that goal.
Speaker 3: And I think for other players, they see that and
Speaker 3: they build upon it, right, And it's like, well, I
Speaker 3: want to be known for something more than what people
Speaker 3: are defining or is my skill set or what people
Speaker 3: may have known me for the start.
Speaker 1: The institution that surrounds athletes when they come in the
Speaker 1: league young, and we've heard you know, horror stories around
Speaker 1: like you know, player associations, and they weren't always set
Speaker 1: up to help people thrive outside of the field, Aull
Speaker 1: side of the court.
Speaker 2: Are they are.
Speaker 1: Player associations in your experience across all major sports? Are
Speaker 1: they what's happening for them to do better to protect
Speaker 1: and help educate those young athletes to come in with
Speaker 1: little financial experience often and little you know, familiar resources
Speaker 1: to protect them.
Speaker 3: Man, that's a great question. I think I think more
Speaker 3: can always be done, right. I think, you know, like
Speaker 3: I said, as an athletes get smarter as the game changes,
Speaker 3: and right now it's the wild, wild West, man. I mean,
Speaker 3: you've got college athletes making tens of millions of dollars
Speaker 3: in IL right and signing for deals that you know,
Speaker 3: quite frankly, I barely made as a professional athlete, you know,
Speaker 3: And so it's happened earlier and earlier in the process.
Speaker 3: And so players associations or anything set up to aid
Speaker 3: and in athletes development, they have a lot of work
Speaker 3: to do to kind of catch up in that process,
Speaker 3: you know. I think for young athletes, I always tell
Speaker 3: them they, man, take your time. It took a very
Speaker 3: long time for you to make your money. I know,
Speaker 3: it seems like a nineteen or twenty two or whatever
Speaker 3: it is that the money came fast, But this is
Speaker 3: a lifelong process. You started playing basketball or football when
Speaker 3: you were eight years old. That's that's a that's a decade,
Speaker 3: you know, And so it would be silly to not
Speaker 3: try to put that same kind of work in of
Speaker 3: how you should deploy that capital, how you should protect
Speaker 3: that capital, how you should spend that capital, or where
Speaker 3: you should develop your skills outside of it, to make
Speaker 3: sure you're making the most out of that capital or
Speaker 3: that opportunity. And unfortunately, in sports, athletes are opportunities because
Speaker 3: they have the least amount of experience, but they have
Speaker 3: the most amount of money. And if you've ever tried
Speaker 3: to convince anybody to give you money. It's a hard process,
Speaker 3: and the easiest people to convince to give you money
Speaker 3: are people that don't know much as much about the
Speaker 3: value or haven't had the experience of understanding how hard
Speaker 3: it really was for them to get that. And so
Speaker 3: to your point, there should be more of a protection
Speaker 3: coming from people that are in this space, especially for
Speaker 3: a lot of the kids, like I said, that come
Speaker 3: from our communities, or black and brown faces that don't
Speaker 3: come from a lot of finances. You know, I think
Speaker 3: more things should be in place not only to protect,
Speaker 3: but also teach and mature and not make them choices.
Speaker 3: And it's tough to make people with a lot of
Speaker 3: mone do certain things. At the same time, it's so
Speaker 3: important in the overall and longevity of their development and
Speaker 3: their protection of this incredible opportunity that is playing professional sports.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love that answer because I was
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask this question. I'm gonna ask it,
Speaker 1: but you just gave me a little slight twist to
Speaker 1: the question I'm.
Speaker 2: Going to ask.
Speaker 1: Because you've got this diamond list of investors who who've
Speaker 1: put money in your own business, people like lebron Naomi Osaka,
Speaker 1: drake A, Jimmy I, Beme av Carter Minim anymore. But
Speaker 1: it's an all star list of investors. And I would
Speaker 1: imagine because we have this conversation, these people are more
Speaker 1: than just deep pockets, but there's some other use that
Speaker 1: they provide to the business, because you can probably get
Speaker 1: money in a lot.
Speaker 2: Of places, but you want specific help.
Speaker 4: So can you talk.
Speaker 1: About how they may or may not be involved in
Speaker 1: helpful to the company and to your mission.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think there they've been paying amount
Speaker 3: to the successes not only my company. I would even
Speaker 3: say me professionally a lot of those names, because you know,
Speaker 3: like you said, these are people that are respected business
Speaker 3: wise and the moves they make and the things that
Speaker 3: they put their money in support behind, and so that
Speaker 3: stamp of approval that carries weight when you're going into
Speaker 3: certain rooms, you know. I mean, we had venture capital
Speaker 3: firms or investors or companies that we've tried to partner
Speaker 3: with early on that laught out of the room that
Speaker 3: are now sending us emails once a week trying to
Speaker 3: talk to us merely off the fact of who's involved now.
Speaker 3: And I want to chase what they're getting into because
Speaker 3: those people are successful, you know, And I think we
Speaker 3: were very tactical and strategic in that way of just
Speaker 3: how we kind of approach them and understood how do
Speaker 3: you make one plus one equal three? How do you
Speaker 3: understand what people like that are looking, where they're looking
Speaker 3: to go, and how you can aid in that thing.
Speaker 3: And again, we are definitely the benefactors in that relationship.
Speaker 4: But these are people that I've.
Speaker 3: Worked with for years, and I think the reputation that
Speaker 3: I had with them went a long way. And once
Speaker 3: it was time to do our thing and we had
Speaker 3: an offering I didn't they didn't have. They didn't question,
Speaker 3: which is a big thing when you're investing, is well,
Speaker 3: how do you work? How how much time are you
Speaker 3: going to put in? How serious are you? Because of
Speaker 3: what I had done for them and in those moments,
Speaker 3: in my previous work responsibilities, that was out the gates,
Speaker 3: and now we could just look at the opportunity, and
Speaker 3: the opportunity in and of itself speaks for itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's talk about that because I'm interested because
Speaker 1: there are so many people who would love to have
Speaker 1: and see strategically strategic reasons why a Drake on their
Speaker 1: cap table makes sense or they on so I can
Speaker 1: make sense for them.
Speaker 2: How do you.
Speaker 1: Position yourself to be successful when you're trying to approach
Speaker 1: a celebrity investor?
Speaker 3: If you're not, it's a good question. If you're not,
Speaker 3: how do you That's a good question, I would say,
Speaker 3: and I kind of alluded to it, the one, the
Speaker 3: one plus one equal in three.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: Not every celebrity is going to be good for your business.
Speaker 3: Not every celebrity is gonna be good for your business.
Speaker 3: Not every celebrity is going to make sense for your business,
Speaker 3: and vice versa, you're not going to make sense for them,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, as all stars our roster is,
Speaker 3: we've had celebrities tell us no, not my thing, I'm good, right,
Speaker 3: even though we see the strategic value. So I think
Speaker 3: it's understanding and being very self aware in that way
Speaker 3: of how exactly this equation is going to come together
Speaker 3: and to your point, like making sure the value of
Speaker 3: whatever you're looking to get matches up well with what
Speaker 3: you already already have. We didn't approach any of those
Speaker 3: names first. They weren't the first people we went to,
Speaker 3: you know, And I think a lot of times when
Speaker 3: you're approaching people of of high name value, there has
Speaker 3: to be an offering, like their name means something, and
Speaker 3: I think that's why you approach them in the first place.
Speaker 3: And so whatever the scenario is, the situation is, or
Speaker 3: the opportunity is, it has to make sense.
Speaker 4: For where they are.
Speaker 3: And we were able to get some already really good investors.
Speaker 3: They didn't have to take on a brunt of the
Speaker 3: public value and their namesake to just carry the company
Speaker 3: solely on their backs, and I think that matters, you know,
Speaker 3: So it was I think it was getting the offering
Speaker 3: right first before we approached them was probably the best
Speaker 3: thing we could do. And in that it was the
Speaker 3: opportunity for you know, getting an NFL license. We had
Speaker 3: that opportunity coming up lined up chasing it. You know,
Speaker 3: we had discussions with some of the platforms in the
Speaker 3: VR companies who can kind of confirm like, hey.
Speaker 4: This is a big opportunity.
Speaker 3: We had other VC firms that were that were lined
Speaker 3: up incredible in the space, and so I think all
Speaker 3: those things factored in to us landing where we ultimately did.
Speaker 1: You know, I love that you said, you know, this
Speaker 1: is one plus one equaling three. I remember there's an
Speaker 1: interview mav car to have done with Magic Johnson, and
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw, but he was talking.
Speaker 1: Magic was talking about like, you know, when you bring
Speaker 1: me a deal.
Speaker 2: It's got to be a big deal.
Speaker 1: Because for the amount of work I got to put
Speaker 1: in to make something go from one hundred thousand to
Speaker 1: a million, I might as well go from a million
Speaker 1: to a billion. It's the same amount of work. So
Speaker 1: the deal size has to be big enough. And so
Speaker 1: I'm equating that with how you pitched you know, pro
Speaker 1: era and like status, Like how do you do that
Speaker 1: when you're pitching a Drake who's got, you know, enough money?
Speaker 1: Or is there such thing as enough money? Who's got
Speaker 1: a lot of money? Or Lebron who's got a lot
Speaker 1: of money, And you know a couple of zeros don't
Speaker 1: move the needle for them. So how do you pitch
Speaker 1: the grand opportunity here to people who already have.
Speaker 2: All they you know, could need.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another great question.
Speaker 3: So I would say it in this way. If you
Speaker 3: called me and say, hey, I want you to do
Speaker 3: my podcast for and I'm gonna give you a dollar
Speaker 3: right now, it's a deal. Now it's I'm gonna spend
Speaker 3: a certain amount of time doing your podcast and you're
Speaker 3: gonna give me a dollar, I'm gonna say no, right,
Speaker 3: because that the work doesn't seem to match what the
Speaker 3: dollar amount is. It's one dollar, right, I could do
Speaker 3: other things to get a dollar. If you said, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go do this podcast with somebody else, and
Speaker 3: when I do it, I'm gonna give you a dollar.
Speaker 3: If you give me, you know, ten cent, that sounds
Speaker 3: like it's worthy because I don't got to do much
Speaker 3: work for that dollar. Right, it's on you. And if
Speaker 3: I think that you're gonna do this podcast, and you
Speaker 3: got that podcast lined up, it's scheduled and it's going
Speaker 3: no matter what, and I don't have to do much
Speaker 3: that That's what it means to be an investor. And
Speaker 3: I think a lot of times people approach the athletes
Speaker 3: or the celebrities or the big time executives wanting them
Speaker 3: to put the amount of work into their product that
Speaker 3: a founder is doing. Now, there is gonna be some
Speaker 3: over the top value, but there's value already in the namesake,
Speaker 3: because that's why you're approaching them in the first place.
Speaker 3: Because that is not the same as their dollar because
Speaker 3: they have a name value that also unlocks a lot
Speaker 3: of opportunities for you. So that in and of itself
Speaker 3: is worth the work, and you have to be able
Speaker 3: to know the process and the plan for making that
Speaker 3: work for you. So I think with me and our
Speaker 3: investors specifically and my partner Truy, who is amazing, you know,
Speaker 3: I think that we are just two guys that.
Speaker 4: We come from nothing. We do everything ourselves.
Speaker 3: We don't expect much like the terms of engagement are
Speaker 3: pretty straightforward. We're going to do the work and as
Speaker 3: long as an investor I feel like understands and sees that,
Speaker 3: then they get to see the opportunity because to the
Speaker 3: example you use with Magic, there's not that level of
Speaker 3: work that goes into it.
Speaker 4: We're going to do the work.
Speaker 3: And the moments we need you will give you a call,
Speaker 3: but they'll know that man, they're calling me. It's one
Speaker 3: of It's a situation that is going to only multiply
Speaker 3: what the opportunity is.
Speaker 1: Can you just describe the timeline, you know, between your
Speaker 1: enterprise product that you licensed with NFL teams for their
Speaker 1: actual training and then the consumer product that will come
Speaker 1: out soon and then the timeline alongside when those investors
Speaker 1: came in, so did the Lebrons and Naomi Osaka's come
Speaker 1: in when they saw your enterprise product or this is fire.
Speaker 1: We got to get it in the Cowboys locker room,
Speaker 1: we gotta get it in the Lions locker room, or
Speaker 1: they saw you had that, and then they said there's
Speaker 1: consumer play here. Can you talk about how that lined up?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say they definitely came in for the
Speaker 3: opportunity for the consumer play, but it all ties together.
Speaker 3: So we started off on the enterprise level working with
Speaker 3: NFL teams to prepare them for NFL games, and you know,
Speaker 3: that gave us a base foundation for our technology and
Speaker 3: we just kind of continue to build that because that
Speaker 3: was something we knew so and so inherently from our
Speaker 3: experience of being athletes, of knowing exactly how a receiver
Speaker 3: could get better with this technology. Troy is a quarterback,
Speaker 3: knowing how quarterback can get better. You know, I've spent
Speaker 3: time as a coach as a scout for the Detroit Lions,
Speaker 3: like understanding how the technology could help organizations. It helped
Speaker 3: us build a foundation and then as the opportunities arise,
Speaker 3: we know which way we can kind of craft and
Speaker 3: use the foundation to go into other spaces.
Speaker 4: And on the.
Speaker 3: Consumer play, it was essentially players would get in the
Speaker 3: headset and they wouldn't take it off, and they were like, Yo,
Speaker 3: this is fun, and that's not a statement you hear
Speaker 3: from a player that's typically watching film. This is fun
Speaker 3: and you're learning about what you're going to see on
Speaker 3: a Sunday. So that was like the indicator for us
Speaker 3: that we knew we had something there. Because if a
Speaker 3: player who sees this scenario every day and has for
Speaker 3: fifteen years, it's saying that it's like it is on
Speaker 3: Sunday and it's fun, imagine what a consumer will play.
Speaker 3: So then, you know, after that was when we started
Speaker 3: to communicate that and started to show what the opportunity
Speaker 3: we felt was on the consumer side. And you know,
Speaker 3: it's been years in the making. Troy and I first connected,
Speaker 3: i want to say, in twenty sixteen or seventeen, and
Speaker 3: here we are in twenty twenty two, you know, so
Speaker 3: it's been it's been that long of a process, that
Speaker 3: that long of us thinking about this craftiness, letting the
Speaker 3: market do what it does, and then also relying on
Speaker 3: a little bit of luck to put us in the
Speaker 3: right position.
Speaker 1: So when you think about gamifying things, let's talk about
Speaker 1: gaming and training, you know, even at the consumer level, like,
Speaker 1: how do you think gamifying exercise and training? You know,
Speaker 1: when I'm if you're bringing up a kid to be,
Speaker 1: you know, an all star athlete, how do you imagine
Speaker 1: gamifying that experience in working out and training might evolve
Speaker 1: over time?
Speaker 3: I think it becomes second nature a little bit. And
Speaker 3: there's a reason why we continue to drilling on the
Speaker 3: fun aspect of it, because you know, I view our
Speaker 3: consumers early on in our consumer product which will be
Speaker 3: coming out in fall twenty twenty two, they're much like
Speaker 3: I have a ten year old son who is obsessed
Speaker 3: with the game of football, naturally, because again we come
Speaker 3: from a fan family of football players. But I am
Speaker 3: anyone who knows me knows I am not to push
Speaker 3: somebody to go play football and do this and do that.
Speaker 3: It's not my thing. But what happened was, you know, first,
Speaker 3: you let him have fun with it. I'm not out
Speaker 3: there making them run through drills at seven years old
Speaker 3: and making them run stadium steps to say, hey, you
Speaker 3: got a legacy. It's not that you give him a
Speaker 3: ball and you let him play catch with his dad,
Speaker 3: and he enjoys playing catch with his dad and he's
Speaker 3: having fun, and because he has fun in it, it
Speaker 3: motivates him to get better. But he's passing the time
Speaker 3: by having fun, but he's naturally becoming better at what
Speaker 3: he's doing.
Speaker 4: So I think when I look.
Speaker 3: At the VR XR technology and specifically what we're doing
Speaker 3: in gaming and the training opportunity is I played football
Speaker 3: my whole life.
Speaker 4: It kept me in shape.
Speaker 3: As a thirty six year old man now who is
Speaker 3: not playing football every day, it is a lot harder
Speaker 3: for me to stay in shape and to focus on
Speaker 3: actually being in shape. I would love for a way
Speaker 3: for me to have fun in doing it. And so
Speaker 3: when you think about XR and training and that opportunity
Speaker 3: and getting better, if gamifying it embeds the fund right
Speaker 3: in it, and by embedding the fund that becomes the
Speaker 3: chief focus. Anytime you're having fun, that's kind of where
Speaker 3: your mind goes to and you're not thinking about the
Speaker 3: calories you're burning, You're not thinking about how you're learning
Speaker 3: the sport, you're not thinking about how you're staying fit
Speaker 3: on a day to day because the game of it
Speaker 3: all is keeping your mind occupied, and then everything else
Speaker 3: becomes a value beyond.
Speaker 2: That, you know.
Speaker 1: I kind of asked a question similar to this when
Speaker 1: we talked about, you know, getting a Lebron's attention or
Speaker 1: Drake's attention.
Speaker 2: But there are people who believe that their tech.
Speaker 1: Is good enough to get licensed by major partners, like
Speaker 1: you know, sports teams in any category. What levers do
Speaker 1: you imagine.
Speaker 2: Are the fastest ways to success.
Speaker 1: To getting the meeting and also being taken seriously?
Speaker 2: Like what are the rolls for people who.
Speaker 1: Are not getting not hawk you know, to how do
Speaker 1: you pick up the phone and call the Detroit Lions?
Speaker 2: Like how does like, yeah, what happens there? Where do
Speaker 2: I need to be? What conference? Money to go to?
Speaker 4: It's tough, It's tough.
Speaker 3: I would say, a lot of it is learning, learning
Speaker 3: the industry, right, So I would love to think that
Speaker 3: my name rings so many bells I could just pick
Speaker 3: up the phone and call somebody and make it happen.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately that wasn't the case.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I started interning with the Detroit Lions
Speaker 3: and two thousand and eight I was a scouting intern,
Speaker 3: right and then beyond that, I went and played in
Speaker 3: the Canadian Football League, and throughout this whole process, I'm
Speaker 3: shaking hands.
Speaker 4: I'm taking meetings.
Speaker 3: I'm telling people when I'm get done playing, i want
Speaker 3: to do X, Y and Z in the off season.
Speaker 3: I'm building out the marketing materials for my sports agency,
Speaker 3: or for my agent's sports agency for him, I'm his
Speaker 3: marketing lead as well. I am also, you know, applying
Speaker 3: to Octagon's internships. I'm doing Under Armour's internships.
Speaker 4: I'm going to.
Speaker 3: Intern with Maverick Carter while I'm the number one receiver
Speaker 3: for the Cleveland Brownson an offseason. And it's not just
Speaker 3: in nature like I'm getting coffee. I'm people that I'm
Speaker 3: interning with. It takes them a month and a half
Speaker 3: to know that I play in the NFL. Because I'm
Speaker 3: doing all the things naturally that an intern would do.
Speaker 3: I'm setting those groundstick because I'm learning. I want to
Speaker 3: see how the process works. I want to shake the hands.
Speaker 3: I want to understand this thing and come up with
Speaker 3: a plan and strategy because in this business, specifically in
Speaker 3: the sports business, you really only get one opportunity at it, right,
Speaker 3: and so it's probably not the best just to pick
Speaker 3: up the phone and call the Detroit Lions, because now
Speaker 3: they're always going to remember you just called the Detroit Lions.
Speaker 3: You had no idea what our process was, You don't
Speaker 3: know what our KPIs are, you don't know the right
Speaker 3: people to talk to. You don't call it the scouting
Speaker 3: office trying to get a licensing deal, right, And so
Speaker 3: I would say engrossing yourself in the area that you're
Speaker 3: looking to get into and understand that it is very
Speaker 3: hard to make those calls and get those deals, and
Speaker 3: people are gonna want to see that you are a
Speaker 3: subject matter expert in the space that you're in. And
Speaker 3: I think that's what I've spent every minute that I
Speaker 3: wasn't on a field over the last decade. That's what
Speaker 3: I've spent doing, and that's what my partner has been
Speaker 3: doing as well. And I think we've benefited greatly that
Speaker 3: it was time for us to do our thing. We
Speaker 3: had a track record, We had connections that people we
Speaker 3: connected with ten years ago are now in a position
Speaker 3: to make decisions or put us in the right place
Speaker 3: or confidently say, Yo, you should talk to Troy, you
Speaker 3: should talk to Hawk. Because I've known them in their
Speaker 3: work for ten years and what they do and what
Speaker 3: they're about, and it's at least worth hearing them out.
Speaker 2: So you did that.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited about this game. I want you to
Speaker 1: talk about it a little bit and like what makes
Speaker 1: this metaquest and PlayStation VR game unlike other football arcade games, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, what's the difference.
Speaker 3: I mean, besides the fact that it's NFL license, which
Speaker 3: is the big one, right, I would say the insights
Speaker 3: from it. I mean, this is this is a direct
Speaker 3: brain chout of me and my partner, and I think,
Speaker 3: you know, with the things I do creatively or the
Speaker 3: things that I'm into creatively, I want that extra level
Speaker 3: of authenticity to it, you know, Like I want to
Speaker 3: see the film about Detroit from a Detroit director. I
Speaker 3: want somebody who is in there giving me that film, right,
Speaker 3: I want to see all those things. And in gaming
Speaker 3: and in sports specifically, that's what we were after.
Speaker 4: This is our life. This is I'm trying to explain.
Speaker 3: I remember, like the very first we're pitching it, I'm
Speaker 3: telling people about what it feels like to walk out
Speaker 3: of a tunnel. It's one of the coolest ex experiences
Speaker 3: I've ever had as an athlete is coming out to
Speaker 3: seventy thousand screaming fans, and in our game, we have
Speaker 3: the opportunity to bring that to life and show somebody that.
Speaker 3: And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So I
Speaker 3: think the little things like that, that where we're giving
Speaker 3: you real insights from things we've experienced and putting them
Speaker 3: in creatively are the things that will make it different
Speaker 3: our company in and of itself. I mean we are
Speaker 3: I think roughly forty five now, and of the forty five,
Speaker 3: I think twenty one of them are former athletes, college
Speaker 3: are pro And that's from the systems engineer to the
Speaker 3: creative designer on the game, to the marketing to the
Speaker 3: business dev I mean, it's permeated throughout the company. And
Speaker 3: the reason for that is we thought, like yo, if
Speaker 3: we can typically athletes don't have a voice in sports anything,
Speaker 3: especially sports gaming anywhere. But imagine if we had that
Speaker 3: insight as well as the experts of gamers, as well
Speaker 3: as the engineering expertise, as well as the marketing of
Speaker 3: all these places in one room where everyone has a voice,
Speaker 3: we can create something that is above the status quo.
Speaker 4: That was the whole impetus around.
Speaker 3: The company, and I think in our experience that's what's
Speaker 3: going to make the difference and what people will feel
Speaker 3: of when they take the headset off and say, dang,
Speaker 3: I do feel like I know what it's like to
Speaker 3: be in an NFL game now, right, And I mean
Speaker 3: that's our ultimate goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm interested, you know, because you've played it at
Speaker 1: the professional level, and how much on field tech there is,
Speaker 1: like we see and we've heard, you know, they may
Speaker 1: mic somebody up and so now we get the experience
Speaker 1: of hearing what it sounds like, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: on the field or on the court, but from the
Speaker 1: stuff that the fan will never see or may never see,
Speaker 1: how much like actual on your body and on field
Speaker 1: technology is happening to you know, measure how fast somebody
Speaker 1: is running or where they are on the field, or
Speaker 1: like what's happening that we don't get the shares to
Speaker 1: be exposed to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of prototyping.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of testing that goes on in both
Speaker 3: a practice and a game environment. The NFL is pretty innovative,
Speaker 3: I mean professional sports NBA is, I mean, they're extremely
Speaker 3: innovative as well. So and it's funny like that's kind
Speaker 3: of how I got my first foray in the tech.
Speaker 3: I would consult while I was playing for sports analytics
Speaker 3: companies that would create this incredible tech, you know, but
Speaker 3: it was always a gap between the tech and the
Speaker 3: people who were applying it, meaning the coaches who are
Speaker 3: you know, it's just a very different world. They use
Speaker 3: a rabbit's foot more than they would use analytics in
Speaker 3: a game like this is my lucky underwear. That's what
Speaker 3: they use in a game environment, right, And so I
Speaker 3: would approach it like, okay, I can act as a
Speaker 3: bridge between understanding the technology and the people applying it.
Speaker 3: And I mean there is chips that every NFL player
Speaker 3: wears that measures their XI coordinates of where they are
Speaker 3: in the field, how fast they move, they're forced from
Speaker 3: left to right, from right to left. I mean in
Speaker 3: a practice environment, we wear the same thing. There is
Speaker 3: cameras that also just are taking that footage and also
Speaker 3: gathering all that data. There is, you know, obviously the
Speaker 3: ability to do even more from a technology standpoint, but
Speaker 3: you want to make sure that the rules are still
Speaker 3: in place and fans are able to experience whatever it
Speaker 3: is they're doing. So all the things that they're testing
Speaker 3: and doing, even though they're not public, they will be eventually.
Speaker 3: It's just a slow rollout for which actually possible. And
Speaker 3: I think that's the cool thing about what we're doing
Speaker 3: is because we do call ourselves the future of the
Speaker 3: field because we're combining a lot of those things and
Speaker 3: again giving it to a fan and that's a really
Speaker 3: cool thing.
Speaker 1: So when you say like there's chips on players, I mean,
Speaker 1: are you saying like glorified like apple air tags or
Speaker 1: tiles are on players to measure these things?
Speaker 4: Yeah, like RFID chips.
Speaker 3: Every player in their shoulder pads has a dime sized
Speaker 3: chip that measures where they are at all times on
Speaker 3: the field and the speed of it and you could
Speaker 3: take that data. And originally how we start as a
Speaker 3: company is we had access to that data and just
Speaker 3: from the data alone, we were able to create three
Speaker 3: D simulated plays, So we didn't need any video. We
Speaker 3: didn't need to see what happened because we could just
Speaker 3: get the data from those chips and tell you exactly
Speaker 3: what's happening on the play.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: How do you because you're doing you know, media now,
Speaker 1: which I think is really interesting. Your great social media presence.
Speaker 1: How are you leveraging media for business success? Because I
Speaker 1: imagine that may be a play because when Lebron moved
Speaker 1: to LA, people were talking about, you know, this is
Speaker 1: you know, he's on the down side of his career,
Speaker 1: so LA is a smart move because he wants to
Speaker 1: be a media and TV so it wasn't just an
Speaker 1: athletic decision. So I'm interested in the decisions you make
Speaker 1: in being on making TV shows or online internet web shows.
Speaker 1: What's the play for an athlete like yourself and what
Speaker 1: are you shooting for? If I can just say it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. So I think two part number one.
Speaker 3: What I'm doing now has always been my goal since
Speaker 3: I've been a kid. I wanted to do business. I
Speaker 3: wanted to do business in an area that I felt
Speaker 3: like I was an expert at and that I knew
Speaker 3: more than anybody else, And I feel like sports is
Speaker 3: that thing. So when I retired, I actually wasn't going
Speaker 3: to go into media. My older brother went into media.
Speaker 3: I wasn't really into it at the time. There was
Speaker 3: a specific formula you had to follow to get an opportunity.
Speaker 3: You had to speak a certain way, look a certain way,
Speaker 3: do a certain thing, and not that I'm not a
Speaker 3: chameleon and I can't do that. I just didn't really
Speaker 3: have the energy that if I want to be one
Speaker 3: way one day, I wanted the ability to do that,
Speaker 3: so I wasn't going in the media. When I retired,
Speaker 3: I walked White in to start working with Maverick Carter
Speaker 3: after having intern for them while I was playing, and
Speaker 3: an opportunity came along, and he was the one that
Speaker 3: was like, YO, you should do it, because as someone
Speaker 3: who knows a lot of former athletes and I've gone
Speaker 3: through this with a lot of people, you might like it,
Speaker 3: and you might be good at it, and ultimately it
Speaker 3: also helps you keep a face card, which is important
Speaker 3: when you're trying to make business move, which I know
Speaker 3: you inevitably want to do. So while I was playing
Speaker 3: in the NFL, I would take I would get fifty two,
Speaker 3: one hundred game jerseys every year after the season, and
Speaker 3: I would sign them and I would write handwritten letters
Speaker 3: to people that I wanted to connect with or that
Speaker 3: I was impressed by, and I would send it to
Speaker 3: him in the mail with an email like, YO, if
Speaker 3: you ever want to get coffee, let me know. And
Speaker 3: that was a networking thing for me because I knew
Speaker 3: people thought it was cool. But you know, there's only
Speaker 3: two people that can say that the start receivers for
Speaker 3: the Cleveland Browns. There's thirty thousand people that can say
Speaker 3: they're former players. Right, So I'm like, well, let me
Speaker 3: do this now so that they'll remember when I was
Speaker 3: at my height where my mind was that, and so
Speaker 3: when I need them and they're at their height, you know,
Speaker 3: they'll keep that relationship going. So I was doing that,
Speaker 3: and then the media thing for me, it was like,
Speaker 3: well that gave me that same kind of face card. Right,
Speaker 3: it's cool to get an email from someone you've seen
Speaker 3: on television or when we're in a meeting and I
Speaker 3: might be on the background somewhere. That helps me at
Speaker 3: least get an email back. So even if I'm asking
Speaker 3: for something or I'm trying to do a deal, and
Speaker 3: even if it's a no, a fast no is helpful
Speaker 3: to me, you at least give me that courtesy because
Speaker 3: I have a certain face card to it. And so
Speaker 3: that's my original goal around media was to use it
Speaker 3: to benefit my business career and what we're doing now
Speaker 3: it's that is pro and I still think that's the
Speaker 3: same thing. And in that I just kind of made
Speaker 3: the decision that I'm just going to be me wherever
Speaker 3: I decide that is. From a media standpoint, Eventually, it
Speaker 3: will again just be projects that are close to my
Speaker 3: heart that I think there's a need for, that I
Speaker 3: think there's a space for, and that Ultimately, I never
Speaker 3: wanted to get into the media side of things to
Speaker 3: have to hang on it solely and completely.
Speaker 4: As a football player.
Speaker 3: You are hired and fired very very frequently, and you
Speaker 3: have no say so when your family picks up and moves.
Speaker 3: And so when I got into the media side, I
Speaker 3: was just very adamant that I didn't want that career
Speaker 3: to be that way. I wanted to have the freedom
Speaker 3: to say and do what I wanted when I wanted,
Speaker 3: and so I passed up on a lot of great
Speaker 3: deals media wise, because I don't want to get into
Speaker 3: the rat race of Hey, we love you today, tomorrow
Speaker 3: we don't like you anymore.
Speaker 4: Now you don't have a job, right so.
Speaker 1: I want to dig one level deeper before we get
Speaker 1: out of here. And is absolutely you mentioned earlier that
Speaker 1: you know a dollar from a Lebron James is not
Speaker 1: just a dollar because his name has value. That thing
Speaker 1: there I want to equate to what you just talked
Speaker 1: about with media and how you're leveraging that for a
Speaker 1: business success. Outside of media, there's so many folks who
Speaker 1: are building businesses and it's all really comes down to storytelling.
Speaker 1: There's so many folks who are building businesses that if
Speaker 1: they could figure out how to leverage stories and personalities
Speaker 1: in social on stage, in front.
Speaker 2: Of people, etc. That could help their business.
Speaker 1: And So if you could leave us with some wisdom
Speaker 1: on how people who might be funny, who might be
Speaker 1: good looking, who might be what charismatic.
Speaker 2: How they should see that as.
Speaker 1: A value or find that value. To add that to
Speaker 1: the puzzle of building a successful company.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, man, I think you got to nailed it right.
Speaker 3: Like you have to use all those things that are
Speaker 3: at your disposal to get to where you are. And
Speaker 3: a lot of time, especially early on your company, is
Speaker 3: you they are various, synonymous, PEP, We're going to follow
Speaker 3: those things. Or it's like an artist when you when
Speaker 3: you find an artist nobody has heard about, and you
Speaker 3: like their store and you like where they come from,
Speaker 3: you write where they represent.
Speaker 4: You're telling everybody about the artists.
Speaker 3: You gotta check you got to check her out, man,
Speaker 3: she's amazing, right, or whatever that is.
Speaker 4: And eventually they hit mainstream and you.
Speaker 3: Know you you probably now looking for the next one.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: Businesses are the same way. Right, they want to they
Speaker 3: want to connect with you and your story number one.
Speaker 3: But using your talents to hit those pillars are super important.
Speaker 3: And I say for businesses, there's three things that you
Speaker 3: got to hit to make yourself a home run. Number
Speaker 3: one is it do you have an incredible product? Is
Speaker 3: your product better than everybody else's?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Do you have something that is just a home run
Speaker 3: of a product that's aggress number one? Number two is
Speaker 3: do you have an ability to get the deals done?
Speaker 3: And we've talked about all these things on this podcast
Speaker 3: so far as do you understand the industry that you're in,
Speaker 3: can you make those calls? Do you know the right
Speaker 3: people to talk to to keep continue to push that
Speaker 3: ball down the court because those things are important in
Speaker 3: those deals. And number three is your ability to amplify it.
Speaker 3: Do you have an ability to when you say something,
Speaker 3: get it out in front of people, right, Because then
Speaker 3: those people who are gonna follow the check marks of
Speaker 3: is your product great?
Speaker 4: And some people can be successful with two of those things.
Speaker 3: You've seen people with terrible products, but they got the
Speaker 3: right investors and the right amplification and they got the
Speaker 3: right deals. You see people with great deals, great product
Speaker 3: and nobody to amplify it, but eventually it bubbles up.
Speaker 3: If you have one of three, it's gonna be tough.
Speaker 3: You need at least two or three. If you have
Speaker 3: three of three, you got the home run. And when
Speaker 3: you use your talents for whether you're good looking, whether
Speaker 3: you have other talents, whether you're funny, to push through
Speaker 3: your product, that helps you in the amplification side of things.
Speaker 3: And it's a very very important, important pillar, and that
Speaker 3: kind of determines the speed at which you scale or
Speaker 3: becomes ubiquitous.
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity Afro
Speaker 1: Tech on the Black Effect podcast.
Speaker 2: Network in iHeartMedia.
Speaker 1: Is produced by Morgan Debonne and me Will Lucas, with
Speaker 1: additional production support by Love.
Speaker 2: Beach Him and Rissus Lewis.
Speaker 1: Special thank you to Michael Davis Jermaine Hall. If that's
Speaker 1: a Serrano. Learn more about my guests and other tech
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Speaker 1: about how we build or leverage technology to build wealth.
Speaker 1: Come on, man, doesn't get better. I want to see
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