1 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: thing my guest today, James Tobak is no ordinary filmmaker. 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: He's no ordinary anything. Tobak has strong opinions and doesn't 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: forget things easily. Robert Downey Junior described Tobak as a 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: revenge specialist for a rapid fire education in Tobak's personal 6 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: demons and obsessions. Just review the titles of some of 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: his films, The Gambler, The pick Up Artist, Love and Money, 8 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: Black and White. James Tobak makes movies on his own terms. 9 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: No one hovers over him to ensure he pleases a 10 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: mass audience or conforms to the needs of a studio. Recently, 11 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: my friend Jimmy and I made the documentary Seduced and Abandoned, 12 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: which premier at can and will air on HBO starting October. 13 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: This is the world and film business. These people are 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: here doing what selling films they have, are trying to 15 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: find a film to grab. The documentary began as a 16 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: chronicle of our attempt to raise money for a film, 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: but soon became a study of the tension between art 18 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: and commerce. It's about how difficult it's become to secure 19 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: financing for independent films. Just for argument's sake, the kind 20 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: of movie we're thinking of couldn't go much lower than that. 21 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: But what would be the number that that cast would 22 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: be a feasible bet? A quarter five million? I'm too 23 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 1: old for that, you know. We spoke to Martin Scorsese, 24 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: Francis Ford Coppola, Bernardo Bertolucci, and Roman Polanski, among others. 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: But no matter how challenging the climate gets for independ 26 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: in filmmakers, I have no doubt that James Tobec will 27 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: find a way to fund his next project. It's clear 28 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: he was put on this earth to make movies. Film 29 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: as a child was probably the primary treat of my life. 30 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: Maybe watching tennis at Forest Hills, which is where the 31 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: Open was played then, and or going to New York 32 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: Giant baseball game so I could watch Whitey Lockman and 33 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: Willie Mays. They'd probably be at an equal footing. But 34 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: I loved going to the movies, and it was also 35 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: a way of entering a world that I found dazzling 36 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: and beautiful and intriguing and appealing. And of course there 37 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: was no TV, there were no computers, there was no 38 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: other screen. There was that big screen in a theater. 39 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: So it had a specialness that it's completely lost today. Um, 40 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: I didn't know that I was going to get it 41 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: directly involved as a filmmaker. For years later, I remained fascinated. 42 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: I watched movies when you didn't study film in school. No, 43 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: I never took a film course in my life to 44 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: this day. When I got out of Harvard, I figured 45 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: I'll be d Harvard English Comparative Literature. And I did 46 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: teach comparative literature. And I wrote a book which was 47 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: called Jim, A Record of my rather wildlife in Jim 48 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: Brown's house in the Hollywood Hills. And it wasn't until 49 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: seventy two, when I started an autobiographical novel called The Gambler, 50 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: that I realized halfway through it that I was conceiving 51 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: it as a film. And um. Eventually it fell into 52 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: the hands of Mike Metavoi, who was the movie agent 53 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: who ran I C M S Movie division at the time, 54 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: Marvin Josephs, and I think it was called and Linnez, 55 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: my literary agent, gave it to him. He called me up. 56 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: He said this movie is gonna get made. I said great. 57 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: He said, um, I know who's perfect for it? And 58 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: I said who's that and he said Redford And I said, well, 59 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: the guy's jew from New York and he said, Redford 60 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: is a great actor. He can play anything. By then, 61 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: by that time, I had already shared the script with 62 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: de Niro, who was a friend of Lucy Saroyan's, and 63 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: Lucy was my best friend, and um, de Niro had 64 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: gone up to my class with me, learned the script, 65 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: knew every move and where was in his career He 66 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: was at the no he was just doing mean streets. 67 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: It was DeNiro very beginning. Yeah, but he was the 68 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: guy everyone at the actor's studio was talking about. Everyone 69 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: was saying that was much like everyone was saying at 70 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: the actor's studio, de Niro is going to be the guy. 71 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: He's the guy. They always saying it. So DeNiro came 72 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: up to class with me. He got his hair cut 73 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: by Carol at Sassoon where I get He wore the 74 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: car down blazer and he had the part down. Now 75 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: Metavoy comes into play, says he's going to get it 76 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: done and says in addition to Redford, he says, now, 77 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: who do you want to have direct this movie? And 78 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: I said, well, I'll direct it. He said, what have 79 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: you directed? I said nothing. He said, well, I mean, 80 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, like shorts or something. I said nothing. So 81 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: we can't direct the movie out of nowhere. We gotta 82 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: get a director to do this movie. So he gave 83 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: me a list of directors. He said, these are the 84 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: ten best directors in the world. They turned out to 85 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: be his ten director clients and um. He asked me 86 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: to research them and see which one I like best. 87 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: And Carol Rice, who had done Is a Door, which 88 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: I loved and Saturday night and Sunday morning I felt 89 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: would be ideal, and he called Carol sent him the script. 90 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Carol called me up and said, I don't know this 91 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: world gambling New York. Uh, I do know. The character 92 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: intrigues me. Will you come to London and work with 93 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: me for a year or so and maybe I'll be 94 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: able to do it? So I thought, why not? It 95 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: sounds like an interesting experience. If I don't like it, 96 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: I can always come back. So Paramount gave me a check. 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: I cashed it, got on a plane, and spent the 98 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: next year seven hours a day in Carol Rice's study, 99 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: developing what I could only describe as the perfect mentor 100 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: protege relationship. He taught me. He was my film school. 101 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: Have you got an idea? How much you all forty 102 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: four and change forty four dimes? That's six Eldoradosto dollars. 103 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: Acts at ain't just numbers. So when you look back 104 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: on that period in the seventies, wasn't exciting for you? 105 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: You must have been. I mean to this day you 106 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: enjoy this place putting the filmmakers who are great admirers 107 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: of yours and your work. What was it like for 108 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: you back then when those people were at their height, 109 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: when Copola was making films and all of these people 110 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: were It was just a different world back then, the 111 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: completely different world. It was as if you were nothing 112 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: was corporate. You were just on your own. You were 113 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: given money and you made a movie and you made 114 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: the movie you wanted to make and the way you wanted. Now, 115 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: I've always done that, but I've had to take much 116 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: much less money than other people are getting to do it. 117 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: I can't work any other way. That's the way I 118 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: learned how to work. And by the way I learned 119 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: that from Carol Rice to The number one rule with 120 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: Carol was decide what you want and then make your 121 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: wishes clear to everybody you're working with. That way of 122 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: making movies as a fulfillment of an intention is something 123 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: that has always stayed with me. Invent it, create it, 124 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: write it, direct it, edited or totally self. Yeah. So therefore, 125 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: when you're at this point in the seventies where Carol Rice, 126 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: who was a very well regarded director back then, he 127 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: makes The Gambler con was a huge movie star back then. 128 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: But um, were their turns you might have made? Were 129 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: their choices you might have made. I'm assuming you could 130 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: have hitched your wagon to the system, absolutely, and you 131 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: could have gotten into moving with it. Without naming names 132 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: because I don't want to be penny about it, but 133 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: movies you might have done, offers you might have gotten, 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: forks and road you might have taken that you didn't take. 135 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: Were those opportunities there for you? There were many? Um 136 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: what happened that there was never I wasn't constitutionally opposed 137 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: to the idea of well, I know I could never 138 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: have done that. I could do in other areas in 139 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: my life, not in that I am a pri any 140 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: area except movies. You cannot get me to do it 141 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: with movies. I just can't do it. I'll take the 142 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: money and run. I won't take the money and be 143 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: a performing Whoreor but what I could do was read 144 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: someone else's script and say, is this something I could 145 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: make my own and do a decent job with? And 146 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: the answer on the various offers that I got, which 147 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: I hardly ever get anymore, and I used to get 148 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: many of, was always the same. No, I don't believe 149 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: in it. I'm not excited by it. If I have 150 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: invented a film and written it and created it, I 151 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: know no one else can do it the way I can, 152 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: or I don't want it done except the way I 153 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: want it done. I would never say that about somebody 154 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: else's script. There has to be someone else at In fact, 155 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm shocked that the guy who wrote that doesn't want 156 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: to do it himself. I can't imagine that he wants 157 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: to turn it over to somebody else. And if you 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: don't have that kind of faith, I don't know how 159 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: you do movies. I wouldn't be able to do it. 160 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: You need a heavy dose of megalomania and a heavy 161 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: dose of humility. It's a combination of the two. Where 162 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: does your humility come from from how do you access 163 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: your humility? The humility is that you say to your collaborators, 164 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: you can either enable me to achieve what I know 165 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: I can do with this movie, or you can prevent 166 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: me from achieving it. I am at your mercy. If 167 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: you can give me what I know, you can give 168 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: me humility or manipulation. No, it's humility because I know 169 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: that if they're not all there for me, and if 170 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: I've made a wrong selection, I'm gonna I'm doomed. But 171 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: the point is that let's go back to the seventies 172 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: and talk about just uh, name two directors who you 173 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: admired what they were doing when you were coming up, 174 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: You were looking at their films. Now you're in the business, 175 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: now you're making films. Who do you turned on by 176 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: his filmmaker is number one by a mile, And then 177 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: behind him were a few. And the first two I 178 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: would say were Visconti and go dar Um. I would 179 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: say new Vell vague people. Yeah, I would not. There 180 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: were no American directors at that time. I liked a 181 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: lot um the very people we've used in our masterpiece, 182 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: seduced and abandoned Copelus Scorsese, Polanski, and Bert Lucci a 183 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: little bit later became the four directors that I was 184 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: most enamored of. My earlier icon when I was at 185 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: Harvard watching his early movies was Trufaux and then, as 186 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: I said, go dar Visconti, in particular The Leopard, which 187 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: I regarded as an absolute masterpiece. None of the Americans 188 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: were on the scene at the time. Even Cooper No, 189 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: I I like you were indifferent. Coper no not indifferent. 190 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: I liked him, I just didn't put him on the 191 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: same level. The only movie of Kubricks that I absolutely 192 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: thought was was I liked Paths of Glory a lot. 193 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: I thought Lolita was a great, great movie. I still do. 194 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: Was television ever on the menu for you? Ever? Never? 195 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: And even as film has become less of an opportunity, 196 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: shall we say, you might say that the film is 197 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: less special and film has diminished you all the word 198 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: you might one might use how to describe the rather 199 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: sickly condition of the movie business from one standpoint. From 200 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: from our standpoint. Uh, many people, of course have and 201 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: some very big names have migrated. Big director's names, I 202 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: mean colleagues of yours that you admire and some of 203 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: them you worked with, Levinson and so forth, have migrated 204 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: to television and you haven't. Well, then, um uh, television 205 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: was still television. It's now something different. Cable is responsible, Yes, 206 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: cable is responsible. It still is in transition. I like 207 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: Breaking Bad a lot. I think it's terrific, But you've 208 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: got commercials all the way through it. To me, that's 209 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: the reason right there. You cannot work in a medium 210 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: that interrupts the your movie seven times to sell toilet paper. 211 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you just can't do that. So when television 212 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: was commercial interrupted television it was not viable. Now that 213 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: there are big screens at home with excellent quality, and 214 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: you have serious, ambitious work, much more of it being 215 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: done on cable than in film, I would be open 216 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: to it. I am open to an HBO in particular 217 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: because of a great relationship there. I like these guys 218 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: and it's a viable place to work. In the seventies, 219 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: though Tobac wouldn't even consider working in television. He made 220 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: three films, The Gambler, Fingers and Loving Money, which came 221 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: out in It was about then the Tobec observed a 222 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: change in the business, the era of the studio head, 223 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: an individual deciding what gets done is beginning to crack. 224 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: It's going to take quite a while, as you know. 225 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: Ron Meyer, in one of the more revealing aspects of 226 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: Seduced an Abandon about the movie business, says something really 227 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: startlingly relatory. He's talking about the seventies and the eighties. 228 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: He says, I could walk into Universal or any studio 229 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: for that matter, if he had the elements this movie, 230 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: and they do it that day on the spot. Now, 231 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: he said, I, as head of NBC Universal, would never 232 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: do anything unless I had the team with me. That 233 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: transition was beginning in the eighties. Uh, there were not 234 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: that many people. I think it was the it's the 235 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: corporatization of movies, the corporate ownership of movies, the conglomerate 236 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: ownership where there's less trust, where it's who are you exactly? 237 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: Then you're And I noticed that as I was trying 238 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: to get my next movie exposed financed, because a fairly 239 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: expensive film, well it's eighteen million, and that would be 240 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: like sixty five today. Big movie shot in Paris and Vermont, Wisconsin, 241 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: New York. I had Nastasia Kinsky, Rudolph Naree of Harvey 242 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: Kitel B B Anderson, Pierre Claimante and your stational cast. Yes, 243 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: Rhode It produced it, directed it, and acted in it. 244 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: The problem was I could not get it financed. Jeff Berg, 245 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: my agent, was over ten. Everyone turned it down. And 246 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: what happened well, including David Bagelman, who was running MGM 247 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: U A. He'd already turned it down. But I found 248 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: myself with two million dollars cash, which I won in Vegas. 249 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: By the way, less the I R S be listening, 250 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: my net figure with Vegas is about minus fifty million, 251 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: so please don't tell me I made money that way, 252 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: as anyone in Vegas will vouch. But in any event, 253 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: I had that two million. This is nineteen eighty one, 254 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: and I thought, Christ, I'm not gonna hang around here 255 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: anymore pounding on doors chasing money. I'll just bribe Bagelman 256 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: and get the movie done. So I walked into his 257 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: office and with two suitcases and to make with your 258 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: Vegas winnings. Yeah, and let's say, without filling in the details, 259 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: it got a green light and how much money do 260 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: they give you to make the movie? Five hundred thousand? 261 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: So I was at minus a million five. In other words, 262 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: I paid a million five to have it done. He 263 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: gave you a budget? How much? Oh, he gave me 264 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: a budget of eighteen million, of which I received five 265 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: hundred thousand. So my net for the movie was minus 266 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: a million and a half. Yeah, but I didn't care. 267 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to make the movie. So you go and 268 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: make Exposed and now you have Now you're making a 269 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: movie and you have a good amount of money. What's 270 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: the experience? I learned that I could handle very easily 271 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: a big, ambitious, eighty day shoot, just as easily and 272 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: skillfully as I could handle a twenty day shoot. That 273 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: I had the knowledge and the cinematic skills to take 274 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: a big canvas through a kind of epic size movie 275 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: with plots and subplots and diverse characters, and do it 276 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: with great quality. It was a really ambitious, interesting and 277 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: what happened to the film when it came out uh 278 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: Sitan sound The b f I British On Institutes publication 279 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: Tom Millne referred to me as the American Buna Well, 280 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: and I got some sensational reviews. Dave Kerr, who writes 281 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: for the Times, that picked the best movie of the year, 282 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: and there were some people who didn't like it. It 283 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: was sort of a mixed response, some great, some pretty good, 284 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: some negative. Quentin Tarantino today still refers to it as 285 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: his favorite movie of mine. He knows the whole script 286 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: by heart. He literally knows all of Harvey Keitel's language 287 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: word for word, and it came out on how many 288 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: screens I think eight hundred, which at the time was 289 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, eight hundred. What was your writing career 290 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: like during this time of year you're making these three films, 291 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: But at the same time, the guy that wrote The 292 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: Gambler and also wrote Bugsy you wrote Bugsy win Next, No, 293 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: not next, Sorry I didn't I Bugsy Next. The next 294 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: thing I wrote was The Pickup Artist, right, Warren't I 295 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: sold it to Warrant for him to act in again. 296 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: He was supposed to act in Loving Money, and we're 297 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: supposed to act in The Pickup Artists. Then de Niro 298 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,239 Speaker 1: was supposed to act in The Pickup Artist, and we 299 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: were all behind DeNiro doing it. Warren't had already set 300 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: it up with Diller at Fox, and we had a 301 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: reading at de Niro's apartment, and it became very clear 302 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: to Warren and me that not only was DeNiro too old. 303 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: The idea of a guy of that age was ridiculous. 304 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: It should be a guy twenty years younger. And he 305 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: asked me to make the call to de Niro to 306 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: say this, and as I was about to make a goal. 307 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: No one knows this is true except me, but it's 308 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: literally the case, he called me and said, listen, I've 309 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: been thinking a lot. If you want me to do 310 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: the movie, I'm gonna do the movie. But you know, 311 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,239 Speaker 1: I've been thinking more and more about this. This is 312 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: not a guy forty years old, thirty years old. You 313 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: really need a guy like twenty one years old in 314 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: this part. I said, you know what, Warren and I 315 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: have been talking about the same thing, and in one 316 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: smooth conversation we decided to go literally with the guy 317 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: young enough to be the son of the age range 318 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: we've been thinking about. So now now we had a 319 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: whole new casting agenda, and I met every well known 320 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: actor in that nineteen to twenty four year old range. 321 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: Never felt really excited about anyone. And then Brian Hamill 322 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: and David McLeod on the same day said you know, 323 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: you should look into this guy, Robert Downey. What has 324 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: he done? And I looked in five minutes in a 325 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: little movie called Tough Turf, and a little bit more 326 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: in one of those uh Rodney Dangerfield movies. And he 327 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: was also a about to be fired sub regular on 328 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live. In other words, he was a reject 329 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: loser at that point and a drug addict, and a 330 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: very clear drug addict. The minute you met him and 331 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: he came in, and I said to myself, this is 332 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: the guy. And I knew all the pitfalls right away. 333 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: I could see he was a drug addict. I could 334 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: see he was a liar. I could see he was 335 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: in this horrible relationship with Sarah Jessica Parker, who was 336 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: a big star. She had done Annie on Broadway, and 337 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: he felt totally intimidated by her inferior. But there was 338 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: something about him. I felt he had a kind of jerky, mercurial, 339 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 1: unthreatening charm for who, well, like nobody, but like that 340 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: character must no no, Well a little I felt yes. 341 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: But I thought, what he can do is allow I 342 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: can allow this character to cruise relentlessly and get away 343 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: with it because he is who he is, and it 344 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: was the personality he had, and I thought, this guy 345 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: can make the movie work. I felt that he did 346 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: the best he could given that he was an ongoing 347 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: drug addict at the time, and he was lying about it, 348 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: and and to my assistant, who was fooling me, because 349 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: my assistant I really trusted, and she kept assuring me 350 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: that everything was okay and he was only doing an weekends, 351 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: and in reality she was getting drugs for him. She 352 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: was later murdered by the way it was, and he 353 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: was She became his assistant afterward. It was a very 354 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: crazy story. Then we did Two Girls and a Guy 355 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: years later, and that's when we reached our perfection of collaboration, 356 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: where I feel it's the best work he could ever do, 357 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: not only that he has ever done. I don't think 358 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 1: he can do anything beyond that. Everything he can do 359 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: is on display in that movie. They are not protestations, 360 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: they are outright denials. It's it's beyond desires, beyond choice, 361 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: it's fallacking capacity. It's an inoperative shaft. I'm telling you, 362 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: if you were to put a gun to my head 363 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: and say fuck her, she's gorgeous, she needs you, it's easy. 364 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: No one will know. I'd say, pull, pull the trigger, 365 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: empty the chamber into my head, because that's when you 366 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: did Bugsy? What year was that? Okay, so over twenty 367 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: years ago, and you're coming out of the eighties where 368 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: you Bagelman and so forth and whatever other films you made, 369 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: and you go and you're a pure writer. Now you're 370 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: writing for baby big movie beat. He was still making 371 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: big movies back then. Uh and uh. Levinson was at 372 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: the top of his game and directing still then. Was 373 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: that sort of the end of your career as the 374 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: writer for hire? Did you just stop right then and say, 375 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: I just won't do this anymore. I can't do it anymore, 376 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: because you could have had a career there as well, 377 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: where you could have been just tearing it up as 378 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: a writer for hire. Did you decide I thought I 379 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: was going to direct Bugs. I wouldn't have written it otherwise. 380 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: I was hired by Warren where you would never give 381 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: your films, as you said, as you would never orfer 382 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: your children, so to speak, and give them to other 383 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: people to direct. Why did you do it in the 384 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: case if I didn't? He asked me. He owned the 385 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: rights to a book about Bugsy See, and he wanted 386 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: to deployent to play Bugs. He said, do you want 387 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: to write a Bugsy Siegle movie for me. I said, yeah, 388 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: he knew that. I knew that I wanted to direct 389 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: the movie. He didn't promise me. He's very well as 390 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: Warren as I. You and I both know, yes, is 391 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: very very careful with his language. He will not make 392 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: a promise he doesn't keep. So I was not naive 393 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: he was not promising it. But I felt, when the 394 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,239 Speaker 1: time comes, my script will be so good, he'll be 395 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: so excited, there won't be a problem. I'll be hired. 396 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: I turned into script. He said, it's great script. I 397 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: love it. I'm gonna do it. I said, well, um, 398 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: should I come out today to l A? And he said, 399 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: what do you think of Barry Levinson? And I said, 400 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: as what? He said a director? I said, he's okay. 401 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: Did you give him the script? And he said yeah 402 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: I did. I said did he like it either? Very much? 403 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: And I said did you offer it to him? He 404 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: said I did. I said did he accept it? He 405 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: said I did. I said, well, I'll tell you what. 406 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: First of all, I'm never fucking spending one day on 407 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: this movie. I can't believe you did this. I'm not 408 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: coming out. I'm not going to help you. He's a 409 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: wait a minute. Let me don't understand something. The only 410 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: way you'll work on this movie is if you meet 411 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: Barry and you get along with him, and he wants 412 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: you to work on the movie. Now, I was so 413 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: homicide early, enraged that I could barely speak. But I 414 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: retreated emotionally and came up with a solution that enabled 415 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: me to function. I thought, I will go out there, 416 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: I'll get friendly with Barry, and then, in the spirit 417 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: of Bugsy, I'll kill Barry during pre production. Warren will 418 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: know that I did it, be so terrified, he'll hire 419 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: me to direct the movie and everything will work. However, 420 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: I immediately like Barry when I met him. We got 421 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: along extremes or well, and it turned out that I 422 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: thought this is gonna be a great three person collaboration. 423 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: So it was you wouldn't be related to Bugsy Siegel, 424 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: would you? Bugsy? I thank your pardon. A bug is nothing. 425 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: A bug does not exist. The word has no meaning. 426 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: It's only used out of ignorance or malice. Do you 427 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: know what a bug is? A bug is a colloquialism. 428 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: It has no basis in reality. Insects include a wide 429 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: variety of living creatures. They fly, they crawl, They do 430 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: many things, none of them can be called it. But 431 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: are you following me? Because if you are in a 432 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: min it James Tobak talks about the unlikely man who 433 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: he says knows him as well as his wife, Mike Tyson. 434 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwer. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening 435 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: to here's the thing, my guest writer. Director James Toback 436 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: first worked with boxing heavyweight champion Mike Tyson when he 437 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: cast Tyson to play himself in his fictional film Black 438 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: and White, about New York's hip hop scene. Nine years later, 439 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: James Toback made Tyson, a documentary film about the former boxer. 440 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: He approached Tyson at a time when the fallen icon 441 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: had little to lose. Toback was also in need of salvation. 442 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: My mother had died and I felt I have to 443 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: get on and do a movie now because if I don't, 444 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go crazy. And Tyson had just gotten arrested 445 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: again for drugs Arizona, and they sort of smuggled him 446 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: into l A and rehab, and I thought he's gonna 447 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: be like down. It's always best to get addicts and 448 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: funk ups right after they've crashed, because well, because the 449 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: all the all the veneer is gone, anything fake is gone, 450 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: you get a sense of the truth of the person, 451 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, you want to get them when they 452 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: are truthful. So I called him and I said, do 453 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: you think it would be good for you? I don't 454 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: forget me. If I could get you out for a 455 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: week and shoot all day every day, he said, it 456 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: would save me. I would love it. It It would save 457 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: my life. So we talked to the rehab people. They 458 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: said they'll let him out supervised every day, ten hours 459 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: a day. I was no way going to be running 460 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: around trying to get money for that because it would 461 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: have wasted time. And I felt, whatever money I have 462 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: has to go into this. So I had two million free, 463 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: and I felt I can do it for two million. 464 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: So I financed the movie myself. We made it right away, 465 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: and then it took a year to edit because I 466 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: had no idea what the movie was gonna be. We 467 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: shot for about fifty hours and then I spent a 468 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: year putting the movie together. I deal with a huge 469 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: inferiority conflict as a little boy. I was fat and 470 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: everybody picked onody picked on. So now I never back 471 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: down from a fight when people because a person could 472 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: say some infantile thing like you're stupid and you got 473 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: your ass kicked in a fight, and I will strike him. 474 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: You know, when you see Tyson on film, there's an 475 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: innocence to him. Did you find that when you were 476 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: around him? Because because in your film he goes to 477 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: another level of vulnerability when he breaks down and realizes 478 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: what a mess he made, I believe I have had. 479 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: Do you think he is well? I know who he 480 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: is because I I feel I know him better than 481 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: anyone on earth knows him. And I feel he's been 482 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: more open and honest with me than he has with 483 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: anyone else. And I would have to say at a 484 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: certain level, I have been so open and honest with 485 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: him that only a handful of people in Looting beatty 486 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: Harvey Keite tell and you and my wife and son 487 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: know me as well as anyone can know me. And 488 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: I would say with Tyson it's even more extreme because 489 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: the areas where he and I have connected over the 490 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: years are so far out there that some of the 491 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: things we've said to each other I think we could 492 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: only say because the other person is in a certain 493 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: way on the same wavelength that intimacy, and that's what 494 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: it is. That intimacy has resulted in his ability to 495 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: show those moments, to show what he who he is 496 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: in both black and white and certainly in Tyson. I 497 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: watched the Spike Lee One Man Show Tyson movie being shot, 498 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: and it's going to be an HBO, and it's hilarious 499 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: and very well done. And Mike is a spectacularly energetic performer. 500 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: But it's a different thing if that's the kind of 501 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: entertain aiment. It's Mike entertaining, and he is a really 502 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: good entertainer. Now, I you know, my my penchiant is 503 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: to get people to be themselves, is to get people 504 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: to drop the front that ultimately I find deters me 505 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: and distracts me from any real interest in that risk 506 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: into risk doing so absolutely the risk that's there. Yeah, 507 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: I start to lose interest in a person as I 508 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: see him or her putting up the protective facade that 509 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: most people put up all the time. If you know 510 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: someone well enough to call them on it, they'll either 511 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: go with that or they want Do you have any 512 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: idea why you succeeded in getting Tyson to drop that side, 513 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: even momentarily a because of word, but you knew he 514 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: wanted he wanted to. Tyson is a fascinating figure. Tyson 515 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: as a personality is a complicated, fascining eating guy. There 516 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: are great champions who are unbelievably boring as human beings. 517 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: As you know, some of the greatest athletes ever are 518 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: some of the most pitifully dull people who ever lived. 519 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: Tyson happens who have been a great champion who was 520 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: also a tragically fascinating, complex figure. And Tyson is also 521 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: a figure like yourself, certainly from your own admission, who's 522 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: a bit of a hedonist. I don't think that there's 523 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: enough space in the digital universe to put down on 524 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: fust record all of your all of your adventures. Shall 525 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: we say? Well, you're only here for a split second 526 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: and then it's over right. But but you are someone 527 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: who has uh lived a particular life, going back to 528 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: the days with Jim Brown. When you're living with Jim Brown, 529 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: what does that tell us about you? You're a person 530 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: who was who is aware he's gonna die, which happened 531 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: after I flipped out an LSD when I was nineteen 532 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: years old and a sophomore at Harvard. I'd been doing 533 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: NonStop drug consumption, somehow managing to be a straight, a 534 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: student of success, full athlete, editor of the literary magazine, 535 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: all the stuff, running around with all these beautiful girls. 536 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: But I was a drug addict. There was no other 537 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: way of putting it. So happened something broken. It was hedonism. 538 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: I liked the sensation of being high. However, I realized 539 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: that I was no longer able to get high without 540 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: taking two or even three times the amount of drugs 541 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: that I used to need. And it was right, and 542 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: I decided the way to get off drugs was to 543 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: blow my mind out. So I researched LSD and wanted 544 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: to take the largest dose ever on record, which I did. 545 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: What happened was, nine hours into what was a spectacularly enjoyable, 546 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: transcendent ecstatic experience, I snapped and went insane and I 547 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: knew it right away, and I said, oh oh, And 548 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: for the next eight days I was walking around with 549 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: a loaded and now you're just a turn up. I'm 550 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: nothing zero. So what I did was I decided I 551 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: would kill myself, and every time I was about to 552 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: squeeze the trigger, I was walking around Cambridge with a 553 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: loaded twenty. I thought, what happens if I feel exactly 554 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: the way I'm feeling after I'm dead? And that's what 555 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: prevented me from committing suicide. I called my mother finally 556 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: after eight days and said I'm gonna have to kill 557 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: myself and explained everything. She said, don't do anything. Let 558 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: me see what I can do. And my mother, who 559 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: was the greatest human being I've ever known in my life, 560 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: called me back twenty minutes later and said, LSTI was 561 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: synthesized in Switzerland by two men at Sanders Laboratory, one 562 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: of them who died recently the age of a hundred 563 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: and six Hoffmann. The others Max Wrinkle. He's ten miles 564 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: away in Newton, Massachusetts. He's the head of Massachusetts biochemical 565 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: psychiatrist azization. He's at mass General. Here's his phone number. 566 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: I'm flying up from New York. Three hours later, I'm 567 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: in his house with my mother and father, and he is, 568 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: after talking to me and diagnosing me, presenting me with 569 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: a piece of paper which I've dramatized at Harvard Man. 570 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: And harvard Man has this exactly as that happened a 571 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: movie I did in two thousand and two. It says, 572 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: in case I should die as the result of the 573 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: medication and ministered to me by Dr Max Wrinkle of Newton, Massachusetts, 574 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: I hereby absolved Dr wrinkle ball responsibility in my death. 575 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: I said, what a chance I'm gonna die? He said 576 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: very good? I said good, that I'm gonna live, that 577 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna die, That you're gonna die like fifty fifty 578 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: said more like ten to one. I said, well, why 579 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: should I say yes? He said, do you want to 580 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: feel like this for the rest of your life? I said, 581 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: I can't stand to feel like this for another two seconds. 582 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: He said, sign it and roll up your sleeve. I 583 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: signed it. I rolled up my sleeve. He gave me 584 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: a seven minute intravenous injection in the halfway point. I 585 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,239 Speaker 1: passed out. Twenty seven hours later, I woke up on 586 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: his sofa, and I was a new person. And the 587 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: difference was I was no longer afraid of death, and 588 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: everything else in my life was different because I have 589 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: been ready to die from that day for it. And 590 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: that's subsequent. Replace that addiction with other addictions about food 591 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: and women and but but they're not different. I mean 592 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: that that's a whole other confort This is a whole 593 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: other Give me a sentence or two about what gambling 594 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: was to you, which has caused you a lot of problems, 595 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: you a lot of troubles. Yes, let me say what 596 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: is different. The addictions that are not to a physical 597 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: substance enable you to continue to function in society as 598 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: if you do not have that addiction. An alcohol or 599 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: a drug addiction advertises to everybody all the time that 600 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: you're an addict. That's a big different, Yes, in terms 601 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: of consciousness in one sense, meaning one is far more 602 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: clear and one is far more impactful. You can't well no, no, 603 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: well well you h and you can't undo it until 604 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: just by mere concentration you are disabled by the substance. However, 605 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: drug time and alcohol time is not just the time 606 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: you're inebriated with the substance. It's arguably the time you 607 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: thought about it, but mean it took you to go 608 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: score it, at the time it took you to recover 609 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: from it when you were over the time it took 610 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: you to earn the money to pay for it. All 611 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: that stuff that could have is energy, and monetization is 612 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: energy to go towards something else. The same is true 613 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: of anything else you've done, all the time you have 614 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: been enslaved, you or anyone else, to your sexuality, to 615 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: your to food, to gambling. That's stuff that's taken away 616 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: from the quality of your life now. But but I 617 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: want to get to one thing, which is um, what 618 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: did gambling do for you? Gambling enabled me? Two We 619 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: talked about this once. I said, gambling, people gamble, and 620 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: I had my answer I gave you, And you said, 621 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: people gamble and risk all that losing because what they 622 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: think what it enables them to feel that they are immortal. 623 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: Because when you win, you think I actually defeated death. 624 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: Losing is death. It's a metaphor. You are engaged in 625 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: this ongoing struggle to stay lie. And my answer to 626 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: you was that gambling provided you with the opportunity to 627 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: prove that God loved you. That's right, with more spiritual 628 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: that God existing. So if I want God loves me right. 629 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: And the image and the gambler that says that is 630 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: the image at Caesar's Palace with the arc of lights 631 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: over Jimmy CON's head as he says to the dealers 632 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: asking for a hit on an eighteen, which no one 633 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 1: in his right mind would do give me the three, 634 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: and the dealer gives him a three. And somebody says 635 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: you're lucky, and he says no, but I'm blessed, and 636 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: that's that's that's the illustration of that. Jimmy Tobec has 637 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: won and lost plenty through gambling. He's the first to 638 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: admit his obsessions have strained his relationships. Yet he's been 639 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: married for thirty years and we've been through a lot. 640 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: The main thing has been that there is a always 641 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: has been a total understanding, for better or for worse, 642 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: and it's been both of the domains of my personality 643 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: in my life. And to be accepted and loved for 644 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: who you are, even if certain things anger you or 645 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: upset you, is something you can ask of nobody. If 646 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: you get it, it's a gift. You might expect it 647 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: from a parent, and I expected it from mine and 648 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: I got it from mine, But you certainly can't expect 649 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: it from anybody else. And even many parents don't do 650 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: it if they say, get the hell out of here, 651 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: you know, I don't care my son. Yeah, and you 652 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: just crossed yours, you know. So I had it from 653 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: my parents, but I really never. I certainly didn't expect it, 654 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't with a straight face have said it. 655 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: But I've just been given it. And my son, who's 656 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: now thirteen, I feel that in relation to him, I mean, 657 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: he would even if he shot me, I would still 658 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: love him as I was dying. You know, there is 659 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: that I understand that emotion. I've never understood it before. 660 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: There is nothing he could do that would make me 661 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: say get out. I disowned and he certainly tries. Yes, 662 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: he certainly, And I said to him, the problem is this, 663 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: you will never be as lucky as I have been. 664 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: I dodged all these bullets, not through skill, but through luck. 665 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: I should have been dead at fifteen, at eighteen, at nineteen, 666 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: and you will not be that lucky. You must be 667 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: more careful. And it's like spitting in the wind against 668 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: the wind. There's no way at registers any more than 669 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: what my father said registered to me. Now, after you did, Tyson, 670 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: I want to finish with this. After you did, Tyson, 671 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: had you contemplated that you wanted to get back into 672 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: the documentary film business. No, I thought, I never want 673 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: to do a documentary again. It's too much work and 674 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: too long and so essentially we did not make a document. 675 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: No we didn't, but there are so many things. The 676 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,439 Speaker 1: thing about Seduced and Abandoned, which is the the net 677 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: result is that people need only watch the movie. We 678 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: don't have to talk about the movie now. But when 679 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: you when you see the finished product, what were you 680 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: proudest that when you saw that film? What appeal to you? 681 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: First of all, I just find it immensely entertaining and 682 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: enjoyable and visual really beautiful and musically beautiful. So as 683 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: an aesthetic act, as a work of art, cinematic art, 684 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely elegant and beautiful. The other thing 685 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: is precisely what I said before, that it resembles no 686 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: other movie ever made. I defy anyone to say it's 687 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: like the minute you give me a movie, it's like, 688 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: I will tell you why. That's a bogus analogy festival. 689 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: As the words suggests, is to have fun. And I 690 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: went there and I had a great time to be 691 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: at the Calton Terrace. You'll be meeting all these different people, 692 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: all kinds of you know, you know, it's like an 693 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: all these interviews talk talk talk to everybody, Me, me, me, 694 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,439 Speaker 1: That doesn't the peak of my megalomania. If I see 695 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: the movie again or a piece of the movie, I 696 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: can see my sense. Isn't a kind of ocean of 697 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: pleasure of one year shooting was in the time I've 698 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: known you. You you certainly are the classic example of 699 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: someone who in this business, who's never happier than when 700 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: you're making a film. It's the highest I can get here, 701 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: and and and and and it's it's safe to say 702 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: that you're enormously frustrated because you don't get to do 703 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: as much of it as you'd like to. And this 704 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: is responsible, I think for your gambling issues and your 705 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: emotional issues, eating food issues. Food is the simplest way. 706 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: Stuff some food in your mouth and to medicate yourself 707 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: in two seconds. And Andra, it's legal. You don't have 708 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: to go to a dealer again, the dealers everywhere, just 709 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,479 Speaker 1: the dealers of golden arches and pick it up, open 710 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: your mouth and put it in. And and and But 711 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: for you, do you think that you you could have 712 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: an easier time of it, You could have more comfortable experience, 713 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: you could have a more uh healthy experience. Knowing that 714 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: this is a is probably a more healthful path you 715 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: to get on maybe because of these other demons. Do 716 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: you think the television is something that's appealing for you 717 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: in the near future? Now? Have you changed television? Only 718 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: only if it's cable, only if it's with people like 719 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: the people at HBO, whom I personally like. I'm not 720 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: interested in whether it's television movies for that matter, in 721 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: working for or with people who don't share my opinion 722 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: of myself. And it's one of the reasons that I 723 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: have worked as infrequently as I have, because you can't 724 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: force people to do that. They either do or they don't. 725 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: And I expect these people to say, I think you're great, 726 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: and here's the money to prove it. Now do what 727 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: you want to do. I have no say in this. 728 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: You make the movie you want to make. I'm investing 729 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: in your idea of you and what you want to 730 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: do with the people you choose and you like. Those 731 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: are very strict parameters. Most people making big, big budget 732 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: movies would be shot down in two seconds if talk 733 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,959 Speaker 1: that way. You can't go into a studio and talk 734 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,399 Speaker 1: that way. I can't work any other way. This is 735 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: it's not movies per se I want to do. It's 736 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: movies that I want to do my own way that 737 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: I want to do. I don't want to make the 738 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: movies that are made. I can happily go in and 739 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: enjoy for two hours something that if you put a 740 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: gun to my head, I wouldn't want to spend a 741 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 1: month making, let alone a year. But two hours, Yeah, 742 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: that was fun. Particularly Goofball comedies that I love that 743 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: are silly and stupid. I go with my son, We 744 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: laugh like crazy. I can't to spend a year doing 745 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: nine months doing one but for two hours great. But 746 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: if I'm going to spend a year doing something and 747 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: getting very little money for it, it's got to be 748 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: something where I can say with a straight face, this 749 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: is why I want to be alive. When I sat 750 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: in the editing room with Aaron Jana's for ten months, 751 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: editing and re editing and re re editing and trying 752 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: every imaginable combination of editorial invention, seduced and abandoned, I 753 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: loved all of it. That experience, to me, is what 754 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: living is about. I don't consider it a job. I 755 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: consider it oxygen and livelihood. That's why if if I 756 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: die today and the last thought is it's okay, because 757 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: probably because partly because it just happened, but also because 758 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: it's valid. One of my immediate thoughts would be, it's 759 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 1: okay to die because we finished. Seduced and Abandoned. Seduced 760 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: and Abandoned premiers on HBO on October. Don't die, Please, 761 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: don't that. I'm not you know. You know that I'm 762 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: a fatalist, so you're not gonna die. Yetta, Alright, we 763 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: have to make one more if if you have a 764 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: direct route to fate, I'm all for it. I'm gonna 765 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: work on that. Okay, this is Alec Baldwin and you're 766 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: listening to here's the thing the company could make a