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Speaker 1: What's fucked my home state? Yea, this is Behind the

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Speaker 1: Bastards podcast Bad People tell you all about him. We

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Speaker 1: have an opening schema that I used in the last

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Speaker 1: episode that dates back several years, where I would I

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Speaker 1: would essentially say, what's xing my wise. It started with

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Speaker 1: generic introduction, you know, what's cracking my peppers and stuff?

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Speaker 1: And now it's become completely atomized from its origins and

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Speaker 1: probably makes no sense to people who are just like

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Speaker 1: hopping into an episode, But that's how we introduce you sometimes.

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Speaker 1: So hello, it's quite a joy, man. I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 1: And we don't usually introduce ourselves, and sometimes we forget

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Speaker 1: to introduce our guests. Yep, our guest who is of

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Speaker 1: course Prop. I will not be saying your your your

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Speaker 1: government name. Appreciate that. It's all yeah, yeah, um Prop.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about Texas? How truthful do you

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Speaker 1: want me to answer this? It's fine, it's fine. I

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Speaker 1: can't stay in this place. Yeah, I couldn't, like you know, now,

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Speaker 1: there's things about it that are nice. Yeah. Now, as

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Speaker 1: a caveat, there are plenty of lovely people that I

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Speaker 1: adore that live in Texas, one of which is my grandmother,

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Speaker 1: you know, was from Sulfur Springs and moved to Dallas,

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Speaker 1: and my father was born into big d you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, And like, so I got some I

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Speaker 1: got some some roots out there. That being said, I

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Speaker 1: don't know nobody in my family that still lives there

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Speaker 1: because pretty much strange from that side of the family.

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Speaker 1: That being said, the ones that were from Texas that

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Speaker 1: I do know, all came to California in the sixties.

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Speaker 1: So in my mind that Californians. So I moved from

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Speaker 1: Texas to California. It was one of the best decisions

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Speaker 1: I ever made my family, just like my great grandma. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's see, there's a thing that you get. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I say, it's about half of the people that I

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Speaker 1: love in the world still live in Texas. There's wonderful

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Speaker 1: things about it. There's still only Texas has but like

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Speaker 1: there is a feeling a lot of people get living

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Speaker 1: in Texas that more or less I would sum up

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Speaker 1: as I gotta get the funk out of here, out

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Speaker 1: of this place. One of my d j's from San

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Speaker 1: Angelo that I worked with, the same thing. He was

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Speaker 1: just like, I'm a Texan, but I cannot wait to leave. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it is indelibly printed on my soul. There's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things about me that are very deeply Texan.

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Speaker 1: But like, well, I just at a point where I

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Speaker 1: was like I'm going, yeah, I gotta get out of here.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, David, Um, I like I like a lot

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Speaker 1: of West Texas. Um, had some real good times in

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Speaker 1: Hill Country. Um. There's kinds of freedom that you can

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Speaker 1: have in Texas. If you're a white person, I should

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Speaker 1: I should stay. Yeah. If you are a white person, yeah,

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Speaker 1: um that you you don't often find other parts of

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Speaker 1: this country, even as a white person. There's like things

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Speaker 1: that you can get up to in Texas that are

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Speaker 1: absolutely nuts. Um. But it comes with a couple of caveats,

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Speaker 1: one of them being the fact that Texas has probably

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Speaker 1: the most nightmarish juvenile justice system in the entire United States, which,

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Speaker 1: as we have discussed a number of times in this podcast,

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Speaker 1: including earlier this week, has a pretty shitty history with

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Speaker 1: juvenile justice. Texas is unquestionably the worst. Like the state

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Speaker 1: that is the has the worst history with juvenile justice,

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Speaker 1: and that's Texas is winning in a contest that includes

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Speaker 1: fucking Florida. It's crazy like, do you know how much

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Speaker 1: Florida hates kids? Yes, Florida really really hates keys Texas.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, Yeah, that's what we're about to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Um So, in our last episode, I opened by giving

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Speaker 1: a history of the term super predator, and while that

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Speaker 1: specific term was the creation of a single man, he

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Speaker 1: was simply the latest in a line of men who

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Speaker 1: have spent generations building and reinforcing an area if that

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Speaker 1: some children are inherently dangerous and must be policed brutally

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Speaker 1: for the safety of all. William S. Bush is a

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Speaker 1: PhD u S History professor from the University of Texas

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Speaker 1: at Austin. And he's a good guy. I introduced him

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Speaker 1: after you're talking about the super predator thing. No, he's

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Speaker 1: he's he's a he knows his ship. He wrote a

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Speaker 1: book that is one of the major sources for this episode,

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Speaker 1: with one of the most chilling titles for a book

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard. It's called Who Gets a Childhood? And

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Speaker 1: it is about the criminal justice system in Texas. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's It's interesting, dude, because it's like one of the

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Speaker 1: things among like black activism is the idea that like

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Speaker 1: black and brown children are forced to be adults in

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Speaker 1: the eyes of the law, way before we're ready to

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Speaker 1: be it. So, yeah, okay, this is crazy and bull

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Speaker 1: boy he does focus a lot of it is about

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Speaker 1: racism in the Texas criminal justice juvenile justice system. It's

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Speaker 1: a good book. I recommend it. It's very readable. It

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Speaker 1: is kind of an academic text, but it's a very

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Speaker 1: readable one. Um now, Bush and it, folks, this is

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Speaker 1: a book about Texas specific. Bush notes that historians of

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Speaker 1: childhood claim that the or tend to agree that the

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Speaker 1: concept of of what they call protected childhood started in

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Speaker 1: the United States around the eighteen twenties. Obviously, this is

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Speaker 1: the thing happening in different parts of the world in

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Speaker 1: different ways. But like we now see childoo was like,

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Speaker 1: you have to not just that, Like you have to

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Speaker 1: protect children, which is the thing people have always done,

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Speaker 1: but you have to protect children from certain things like

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Speaker 1: understanding and interacting in the world the same way in

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Speaker 1: adult That's right, kids don't work, they shouldn't. We most

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Speaker 1: people agree on that now, like like kids should not

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Speaker 1: recent labor like adults labor. Kids should not be subject

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Speaker 1: to some of the realities that adults are subject to.

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Speaker 1: These are we can always debate some of this stuff,

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Speaker 1: like particularly hiding certain realities of the world from kids,

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Speaker 1: but these are things society broadly agrees upon. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is what a protected childhood is, right, the idea that

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Speaker 1: you protect kids from some of the things that adults

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Speaker 1: have to deal with. And no, the movement towards this

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Speaker 1: concept for protected childhood in the United States, and again

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Speaker 1: we're talking in the U s. Here, it happens other

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Speaker 1: places different ways. There's a lot of academics here. Please,

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to this is this is a broad overview.

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Speaker 1: This movement starts with the free school and Sunday school

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Speaker 1: social movements, which again kind of the eighteen twenties come down.

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Speaker 1: As we've talked about actually in a couple of recent episodes.

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Speaker 1: These all start in like the Northeast and kind of

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Speaker 1: spread to the rest of the country. These ideas that

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Speaker 1: like school should be free, every kid should get an

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Speaker 1: education and it shouldn't cost them anything. And also the

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Speaker 1: idea that like Sunday school is a is a thing,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, tied to religion, but also also

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Speaker 1: tied to this idea that like this very new idea

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Speaker 1: that like education is a thing that every kid deserves.

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Speaker 1: So people died all the time back then for basically

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Speaker 1: no reason, which also meant that like in this period,

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Speaker 1: there's a ton of orphans, you know. Um, And so

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Speaker 1: when people started this kind of long process of giving

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Speaker 1: a ship about childhood's for children, um, it leads to

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Speaker 1: a bunch of facilities getting opened, not just to deal

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Speaker 1: with orphaned kids, but to deal with like kids were

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Speaker 1: delinquent kids who have various kind of behavioral issues. They

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Speaker 1: all kind of get shoved into the same place. These

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Speaker 1: these are generally called houses of refuge. And it's a

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Speaker 1: mix because obviously they are saying like well, if you're

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Speaker 1: homeless or or if you're a kid committing petty crimes,

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Speaker 1: you belong in the same place, which is not great, um,

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Speaker 1: but also it is it is good, and that it's

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Speaker 1: kind of as a society people being like, well, even

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Speaker 1: though they're not my kid, I as a member of

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Speaker 1: society have some responsibility towards And that's just a fun

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Speaker 1: this facility, which is not a bad development. Again, it's problematic,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, but it's a communal understanding that like the

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Speaker 1: children are ours, yeah, not just yours, they're ours, and

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Speaker 1: like we and if we want to like live in

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Speaker 1: a community that we enjoy, Like I should invest in

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Speaker 1: your the other things around me, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I think often when we talk about movements like this,

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Speaker 1: it is easy to focus on like the horrible negatives

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Speaker 1: which we'll be talking about. Everything today we're gonna talking

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Speaker 1: about comes from this. But it's not one thing or

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Speaker 1: the other entirely it is. There's a lot that's sucked

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Speaker 1: up about this. It also is coming from this place

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Speaker 1: of like, oh, there's all these children on the streets

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Speaker 1: and like maybe we have a responsibility to them some

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Speaker 1: money here too. Wait, You'm I mad? Yeah, what what

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Speaker 1: are you doing? People? What you're doing on the quarter

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Speaker 1: three years old? Yeah? Yeah, I would even say this man,

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Speaker 1: Like even just going through as a parent, like I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: as like a now a parent is like even when

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Speaker 1: going through just the history of the decisions other parents

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Speaker 1: or societies have made for their kids that obviously that

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Speaker 1: weren't preposterous, but ones that are like the reality is

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Speaker 1: like there's no this a whole last human and you're like,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing more terrifying than the idea of like their

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Speaker 1: life is in my hands and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the funk I'm doing? Like that that existential dread. I

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Speaker 1: feel like, if you're going to be a good parent,

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Speaker 1: you have felt that fear where you're like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I'm doing, YO saying, You're like, where do

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Speaker 1: what do I I can't I don't know what I'm

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: fund this kid up. You know what I'm saying. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you're like, well, I'm fucked up, you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like, I mean, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: just I think, like I think you're like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I'm doing, but at least I know you

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Speaker 1: should live on a damn streets man, Like there needs

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Speaker 1: to be some sort of adult in your life, right,

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Speaker 1: like you know, I mean, yeah, yeah, and that that

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Speaker 1: that's kind of happening on a really broad scale here,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it's made possible because of industrialization.

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Speaker 1: Both there's a lot more people from industrialization kind of

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Speaker 1: all the sources and so like these facilities kind of

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Speaker 1: grow in size and pop up, start popping up all

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Speaker 1: over the United States throughout like kind of the mid

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Speaker 1: to late eighteen hundreds. Now at the same time, all

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Speaker 1: this is happening, and part of why it's happening is

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Speaker 1: that the US is creating its middle class um and

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Speaker 1: in fact the very concept of a middle class. Parents

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Speaker 1: start having fewer kids and devoting a lot more time

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Speaker 1: and attention to the development of the kids that they

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Speaker 1: do have, and the idea starts to spread as a

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Speaker 1: result of all this that children not not don't don't

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Speaker 1: just deserve maybe to be house but deserves to learn

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Speaker 1: and play um and not to die in coal mines

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Speaker 1: are like bang drums, Well, don't shoot rifles at each other,

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Speaker 1: right at Like, maybe you shouldn't be doing some of

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Speaker 1: the things we're doing with kids. At some point you

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Speaker 1: said to yourself, you know, my childhood was trash. You know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't really get to that. Look, I wish I

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Speaker 1: could have been able to you know what when I

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Speaker 1: have it's I'm gonna let him play outside. You don't

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Speaker 1: need to go to no coal mine and die. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And so that that's happening in this period

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Speaker 1: and the kind of the people who these early advocates

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Speaker 1: of the concept of a childhood, these early like people

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Speaker 1: who are are supporting the idea that there should be

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Speaker 1: restrictions on like what we can make kids do. UM.

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Speaker 1: They're generally called child savers, and most of them are

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Speaker 1: middle class moms. UM. And it's from them in this

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Speaker 1: advocacy in kind of the late eighteen hundreds that we

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Speaker 1: get stuff like age of consent laws, child labor bands,

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Speaker 1: and compulsory education. That's all good stuff broadly speaking. UM.

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Speaker 1: But these positive moves occur along more muddled developments too,

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Speaker 1: because these women are also responsible. These activists are also

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Speaker 1: responsible for the concept of youth curfews, the idea that like,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't let kids out at night sometimes and they

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Speaker 1: should be punished if they are out at night, um,

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Speaker 1: and the juvenile justice system, which is a very mixed bag.

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Speaker 1: William Bush writes. Many of these reforms were aimed at

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Speaker 1: extending the protections of childhood to working class and poor children. Moreover,

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Speaker 1: they sought to broaden the years of protection and semi

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Speaker 1: dependence on adults upward into the adolescent years, a reflection

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Speaker 1: of the slowly spreading idea of adolescence itself at the

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Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century. One of its leading proponents,

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Speaker 1: the Clark University psychiatrist and child study movement leader Grandville.

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Speaker 1: Stanley Hall described the life stage of adolescence famously as

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Speaker 1: a time of storm and stress, a time of risk taking, rebellion, awkwardness,

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Speaker 1: and self discovery. Adolescence he and other psychiatrists such as

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Speaker 1: William Healy proposed uh needed to be treated individually, especially

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Speaker 1: when they ran a foul of rules, as seemed almost inevitable.

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Speaker 1: Early juvenile court judges such as Denver's Ben Lindsay helped

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Speaker 1: popularize the idea of the tough but fatherly juvenile justice official,

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Speaker 1: for whom understanding his wayward charges was a specialty. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: courts for delinquent girls, headed by matronly figures such as

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Speaker 1: Mary in Barthelm of Chicago, preoccupied themselves with curbing the

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Speaker 1: precocious sexuality of working class girls, whose families were often

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Speaker 1: recent arrivals in American industrial cities. So again, a lot

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Speaker 1: going on here, you know, still products of your your time,

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Speaker 1: of its time. But yeah, this is this is kind

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Speaker 1: of how this starts to look. Um. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's important to note that, like, because we're talking about

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Speaker 1: how bad the juvenile justice system, the idea that we

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Speaker 1: should have one came from a really good place, which

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Speaker 1: is that like kids as adults when they grownups. You

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Speaker 1: should be in prison with the grown ups. You shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be judged by the same judges who judged grown ups,

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Speaker 1: like we should have a separate thing for you, in

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Speaker 1: part because kids are gonna funk around and like they're

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Speaker 1: like the finding out part of that shouldn't be as

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Speaker 1: brutal as it is for adults. Judge Lindsay even complained,

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Speaker 1: quote this business of punishing infants as if they were adults,

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Speaker 1: and of maiming young lives by trying to make the

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Speaker 1: grizzle of their unformed characters carry the weight of our

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Speaker 1: iron laws and heavy penalties. Um, yes, yeah, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: there's some people who are saying really good shit now.

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Speaker 1: In Texas, juvenile and adult offenders were first separated in

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighties six after protests from the local women's Christian

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Speaker 1: Temperance Union, which is right around the same time it

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Speaker 1: starts happening in a bunch of other places. The next year,

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Speaker 1: the legislature in Texas passed a bill approving a dedicated

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Speaker 1: house of correction for children. Gatesville opened in January of

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty nine, and it was one of the first

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Speaker 1: dedicated juvenile attention facilities anywhere in the United States. It

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Speaker 1: was followed later that year by facilities from in Virginia, Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: and Alabama. Gatesville opened with eighty six inmates. It was

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Speaker 1: immediately popular with the locals, who saw rightly that it

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Speaker 1: would bring a lot of jobs to their town. Local

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Speaker 1: residents actually raised money so the state can't pay, like

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Speaker 1: their budget runs short and they can't pay for all

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Speaker 1: the land they need to buy this facility, and people

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Speaker 1: who live in the town nearby raise the money to

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Speaker 1: buy it for the state because they're like, well, this

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Speaker 1: is going to provide us with jobs forever if we

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Speaker 1: have a child prison in town. Oh my god, why

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Speaker 1: is that? Their first thought was like everybody's first thoughts,

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Speaker 1: like spoilers, that's where this is going for the next century.

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Speaker 1: That's why I went. What it's like. I thought they're

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Speaker 1: gonna be like, oh that's cool man, you know, yeah, kids,

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Speaker 1: I got it. You shouldn't have to go to jail.

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Speaker 1: There's money in this ship. Wait, we can buy some

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Speaker 1: money off you hit the lip bro like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's great. Um. So, the boys who were interned in

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Speaker 1: Gatesville were overwhelmingly city dwellers. And there's this idea at

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Speaker 1: the time that Texas never gets past that kids who

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Speaker 1: are juvenile delinquents, most of whom are urban kids, need

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Speaker 1: to be put in prisons far away from their families,

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Speaker 1: in isolated rural communities. Um basically, all of these kids

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Speaker 1: were poor to One survey of early Gatesville inmates found

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Speaker 1: that a hundred nineteen out of a hundred ninety five

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Speaker 1: listed their mother's occupation as housekeeper, while the leading descriptions

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Speaker 1: of their fathers were unknown railroad men, laborers, and farmers. Unknown.

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Speaker 1: Being up there is to tell you something about what's

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Speaker 1: gone on. Two thirds of these boys had lost one

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Speaker 1: of their parents, and slightly less than half of their

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Speaker 1: parents had criminal records themselves. William Bush goes on to

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Speaker 1: note that the racial disparity and who went to Gatesville

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Speaker 1: was pretty blatant. African Americans comprised forty six of the

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Speaker 1: first forty of the first sixty eight inmates, all of

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Speaker 1: whom were transferred from the adult prison system. Although Gatesville

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Speaker 1: admitted inmates regardless of race or ethnicity, it's strictly segregated

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Speaker 1: every aspect of daily lives, housing, schooling, dining, and religious services.

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Speaker 1: As a result, by nineteen seventeen, about two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty black inmates crowded into Harris Hall. The Jim Crow

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Speaker 1: Congregate Dormitory built a house about half that number. By contrast,

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Speaker 1: when the state opened its first and only training school

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Speaker 1: for girls before World War Two, it excluded black females altogether.

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Speaker 1: Black girls charged with committing a crime in this period

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Speaker 1: may have had their cases heard in local juvenile courts,

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Speaker 1: but the available remedies were limited to the county jail

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Speaker 1: or released back into the community. So nothing new. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean not exactly news that Texas in nineteen seventeen

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Speaker 1: was pretty fucking racist. Um, but it's good to have data. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm still like trying to picture of Juvenile Hall in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. Oh god, right, and I'm just like spiral,

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Speaker 1: Like it just got me spiraling and thinks, like, I

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Speaker 1: just don't know how anyone survived the eighteen hundreds. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And one of the worst things to think about is

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Speaker 1: the degree to which maybe it's it wasn't much worse

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Speaker 1: than it is now, at least in a lot of

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Speaker 1: these facilities in Texas. Um. But that's a that's something

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Speaker 1: we can talk about. So the fact that Texas would

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Speaker 1: go on to lead the nation and juvenile incarceration had

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with the fact that Texas was

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Speaker 1: the only southern state to see a net gain in

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Speaker 1: its black population during the first half of the twentieth century. Right,

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Speaker 1: That's part of why they're building these facilities is they

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Speaker 1: have this huge influx of black UM and Hispanic citizens

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Speaker 1: moving to the state. UM. And so you've got, well,

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Speaker 1: the Hispanics were already there, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: but but yeah, you do have more like coming in

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Speaker 1: from Mexico and stuff. And you also have, um, you

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Speaker 1: have a huge number of poor, non white kids moving

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Speaker 1: into Texas cities, UM, a lot of whom don't have parents,

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Speaker 1: UM for a variety of horrible reasons. UM. And this

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Speaker 1: causes a backlash from white Jim Crow supporting citizens who

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Speaker 1: don't like seeing all of these kids who are not

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Speaker 1: white and what they think of as their cities up.

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Speaker 1: Police do the thing that police do, which is responds

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Speaker 1: to the demands of middle class white people, and they

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Speaker 1: start sweeping juke joints, which is generally how the places

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Speaker 1: they sweep to to arrest black kids are described I

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Speaker 1: think it's like, you know, it's like a dance halls.

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Speaker 1: Like that's just like the club was, like the time joint.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, great music came out of here. Yeah yeah. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: the nation's first juvenile court was was established in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and the focus of this court was, at least on papers,

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Speaker 1: supposed to be rehabilitating the kids that got interned in

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Speaker 1: the system. Texas though, and obviously Chicago like that system,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of flaws and a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that they could be criticized. Could probably do an

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Speaker 1: episode about that. But it's worth noting that the first

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Speaker 1: juvenile court in the nation is in Chicago and it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be focused on rehabilitation from the start, because

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Speaker 1: Texas follows soon after. Their juvenile justice system from the

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Speaker 1: start very openly is not about rehabilitation. They specifically say,

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Speaker 1: that's not our goal here. We are here to punish kids.

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Speaker 1: Gatesville became what one activist group described as an instrument

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Speaker 1: of torture. In nineteen twelve, a new superintendent for the

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Speaker 1: facility ordered the banning of several forms of corporal punishment

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Speaker 1: that had started in the late eighteen hundreds, and these

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Speaker 1: sound somewhat tortury. I'm gonna read a quote from Who

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Speaker 1: Gets a Childhood if you want. This will give you

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Speaker 1: some context on what it's like being in a juvenile

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Speaker 1: prison in Texas in the late eighteen hundreds, and start

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Speaker 1: with the nineteen hundreds, Adams outlawed pulling toes and which

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Speaker 1: boys were forced to stand holding their toes with their

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Speaker 1: hands indefinitely, and bustings, and which boys were made to

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Speaker 1: stand with their arms held over their heads while a

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Speaker 1: guard flogged them with a bat. I think that's flogging.

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Speaker 1: That's just that's not flogging, flogging something soft, right, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty ugly too, but like, that's just hitting a kid

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Speaker 1: with a bat. Flogging not flogging, that's just beating a

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Speaker 1: child with a heavy stick. I was like, the images

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Speaker 1: egregious and the sentence for which you used to explain

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Speaker 1: the images egregious because that's not flogging. Now. So in

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Speaker 1: nine twelve, this new superintendent orders these things banned, and

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Speaker 1: the guards revolt. Um. They initially express their displeasure by

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Speaker 1: allowing more than two dozen kids to escape over a

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Speaker 1: three day period. Right, so they just stopped doing their

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Speaker 1: jobs kids, put them on the streets. You'll see you know,

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Speaker 1: um and yeah, they eventually they walk off the job,

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Speaker 1: just completely strike, which forces the superintendent to recruit local citizens,

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Speaker 1: most of whom supported the guards, to serve in their place,

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Speaker 1: and obviously very little gets actually changed because in this

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Speaker 1: will be a pattern. These trends will continue through the

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Speaker 1: rest of the story. Oh my god, why someone in

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Speaker 1: this case, the guy running it like recognizes a problem,

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Speaker 1: tries to change it, and a mix of the guards

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Speaker 1: working at the facility and the local citizens say absolutely not,

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Speaker 1: you ain't improving shit, and nothing gets done. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine that you're unionizing and somebody's like, why you are

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Speaker 1: using unionizing because they won't let us beat the kids

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Speaker 1: with bats. Yeah, imagine like a couple of like, well,

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Speaker 1: we're unionizing because we're all going to die from the

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Speaker 1: black log and we'd like our families to get slightly

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Speaker 1: more money and maybe have weekends off. Oh, well, we're

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Speaker 1: unionizing because people keep burning to death in garment fires.

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Speaker 1: They won't let me hit kids with a bat anymore. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're like, yo, your struggles are the same, solidarity forever.

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Speaker 1: Who's man is this? Like? Who invited these foods? Who's

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Speaker 1: written I gotta go It's very funny that right around

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Speaker 1: the same time, like miners are fighting with machine guns

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Speaker 1: and rifles for the right to have a life outside

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Speaker 1: of the job and not be beaten by mine by

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Speaker 1: the boss's guards, the other guys are striking for the

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Speaker 1: right to beat kids with bats. Listen. That is the point, essential,

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Speaker 1: the absolute, the perfect example of yo, whose man's is this? Like? Yo,

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Speaker 1: who who's man? Who? Who let them in? That's not

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Speaker 1: We're not the same fan. Yeah. Well, and probably a

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Speaker 1: bleak story is how many of those other union men

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Speaker 1: would see this as the same struggle because a lot

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Speaker 1: of racism struggle. So, you know, not in favor of

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Speaker 1: flogging children with baseball bats. Let me tell you who

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Speaker 1: not products and services that support this podcast, unless it's

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Speaker 1: the Washington State Highway Patrol. Oh no, yeah, the FBI,

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Speaker 1: or I gotta tell you man that they look the island.

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Speaker 1: Ain't no game. They're often called the Washington State Highway

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Speaker 1: Patrol of the food box industry. Listen, I am team,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Oh we're back, um prop Yeah. Juvenile detention

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Speaker 1: facilities spread across Texas throughout the first half of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. They came to be known as reform schools

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Speaker 1: or training schools, even though neither of those things was

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Speaker 1: ever Yes, we will call it a school school. Hard

426
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: knocks this school in the sys that we got some desks. Yeah,

427
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: fucking dude walks in with a baseball bat, slams it

428
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: on the table. Who's ready to learn calculus? Car the one, Martinez.

429
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: It's a kid with a bat, Like, you get this

430
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 1: one wrong and I'm gonna bunt you. Yeah. Yeah. Gatesville

431
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: remained the most brutal of the juvenile prisons in Texas.

432
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: It was so bad that it had to build a

433
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: cemetery on its grounds because so many boys were dying

434
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: in custody. Yeah, yeah, when you cemetery, maybe maybe we

435
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: got a problem guessing the kids who wind up there,

436
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: Like they don't have any parents left alive or something. Right,

437
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: maybe they're kids that are total awards of the state

438
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: or whatever, and so it doesn't matter what happens to

439
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: them in the eyes of the state. You can just

440
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: throw them in an unmarked grave. There's One of the

441
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: worst cases of this occurred in nineteen one, when a

442
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: guard strangled a fifteen year old named Dell Timm's to

443
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: death in front of two other boys, so not good

444
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: places ninete. Eventually, all the stories of abuse led to

445
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: enough outrage that in nineteen forty eight, the state legislature

446
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: appointed a special commission to study these schools. So the

447
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: State of Texas boy kids are twenty years later could

448
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: get strangled to death, right, Like, Yeah, it takes a while,

449
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: stuff builds, there's other deaths. There's a lot of a

450
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: lot of complaints. But eventually the State of Texas is like, well,

451
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: it's our duty. We gotta get in there and really

452
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: look at these these facilities. Um, one guy dies, you know,

453
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: two guys dies. Hey, maybe they were together. Damn guys die.

454
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: Maybe we said, cool, we'll have a guy look into it.

455
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: Like ten kids getting beaten to death is like, that's

456
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: the equivalent of like when you're washing machine floods the

457
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: house for the third time and you're like, all right,

458
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: I gotta call fucking dude. You probably call somebody, right, yeah.

459
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 1: Um So, The Washington Post reports quote when experts and

460
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: reformers visited the facilities, they recommended placing them entirely with

461
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: it within, with smaller facilities located near metropolitan areas. In

462
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: addition to removing the stigma of prison. Such facilities would

463
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: place youths closer to their families and enable the state

464
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: to bring in professionals from the fields of childcare, education,

465
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: and mental health, a community based division similar to today's

466
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: group homes and halfway houses. So that's not that's pretty

467
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: good advice given the state of things. That seems like

468
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: an improvement, But the legislature rejected this advice absolutely not. Yeah,

469
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: what is the most sensible humane like kid should probably

470
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: be near their parents and experts and stuff who can help.

471
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: Maybe we should get somebody to understands kids around here

472
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: that there was riots when they tried to stop the

473
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: baseball bat beatings. Of course they're not putting these kids

474
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: in a different facility. It's perfect heating the demands of

475
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: the politically well connected leaders of the states youth prisons,

476
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: who used the specter of black and Mexican American criminality

477
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: to insist that young people required imprisonment. Texas instead expanded

478
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: its construction of ever more sprawling prison like facilities, sometimes

479
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: strategically located in the electoral districts of keyge legislators. Abuse

480
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: scandals continued to surface, and television and newspaper reports in

481
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, a Houston lawyer filed an appeal on

482
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: behalf of a sixteen year old girl who had spent

483
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: nearly two hundred days in isolation in the Gainesville State

484
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: School after being held down by mail guards and forcibly

485
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: sedated with barbiturous Another girl who escaped the same facility

486
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: told a reporter for the Austin and Statesman, I'll kill

487
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: myself before returning. I'll let you know how it's going

488
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: in there. So we've had two attempts to reform things,

489
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: first in nineteen twelve and in nineteen to big attempts,

490
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: uh so far. They both met with massive protests from

491
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: the people who lived in and around and also protests

492
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: from lawmakers who know that if you put a child

493
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: prison in a town where maybe you don't have a

494
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: great electoral ledge, suddenly all the people who get jobs there,

495
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: that's your voting base and you can like lock that

496
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: ship down. It's like, I can't believe what I'm saying this,

497
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, in Texas defense, they tried at some

498
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: point to do some reasonable and it was like, well,

499
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: Texas going Texas. There was Texas that stopped anything reasonable

500
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: from happening. So I don't know about in the defense

501
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 1: of the individuals who tried to reform fifty people that

502
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: flew in. Yeah, those folks were at least on the

503
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: right track because oh well, never mind. Yeah. By Night

504
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: Seen sixty four, things were bad enough that a mix

505
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: of parents and former Gatesville employees wrote a letter to

506
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: President Lyndon Baines Johnson and the Governor of Texas UM.

507
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: They described the kind of abuse we've discussed already in

508
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: this episode at length and compared the training school to quote,

509
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: a concentration camp, um and man. Statistically, at least one

510
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: or two of those people had to who have known

511
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: what a concentration right. Some of them were World War

512
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: two vets or something like we're talking about. Yeah, Yeah,

513
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: there was somebody in there who was like, I've seen

514
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: a fucking concentration camp on. This place doesn't look good.

515
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: I was there, bro, I was there. So this leads

516
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: to the biggest flurry of investigations yet. The FBI and

517
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: the Texas Rangers both launched investigations into these facilities, Gatesville

518
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: in particular, but also the juvenile justice system in like

519
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: the juvenile um incarceration system in Texas UM, and also

520
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: both Houses of the Texas legislature lawns investigations. You've got

521
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: like four big investigations going on, right, one of them federal. Um.

522
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: And when the FBI starts investigating stuff like this, for

523
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: all of the good triaks we have them, they always

524
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: find ship. Right. Yeah, you're gonna the most, the most

525
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: detailed documentation of a number of different law enforcement agencies

526
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: crimes comes from FBI investigations. Now here's another fun question.

527
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: Doesn't ever lead to anything? No, no, no, no. I

528
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: was like, no, they find a guy, nothing happens, but

529
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: they find him. Um. Like in in Oregon right now,

530
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: the Portland Police are currently in contempt of the Justice

531
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: Department for repeatedly refusing to reform their use of force

532
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: policies and being unconscionably so brutal that these federal criminal

533
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: justice system says, you guys can't do this, and currently

534
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: they've just said, yes, we can, and we'll see if

535
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: anything happens. Yeah it's fine, Yeah, absolutely fine. And of

536
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: course in this case, nothing happens. All of these investigations

537
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: start um and there's like there's again sweeping reports of abuses,

538
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: horrible details about all the bad ship that's happening. The

539
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: FBI is like, yeah, bad shit's happening. Texas Rangers are like, yeah,

540
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: bad ship's happening. Both Houses of Legislature and Tech they

541
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, bad ships happening. Um, No, very little

542
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: reforms happen. Attempts to make serious reforms are shut down

543
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 1: at every past by again local and state elected leaders

544
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: who had training schools in their districts and didn't want

545
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: to lose money. By nineteen seventy four, the reform movement

546
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: was desperate enough that a bunch of former inmates, parents

547
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: and activists launched a class action lawsuit in federal court.

548
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: This case, Morales v. Termine, brought another wave of psychologists,

549
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: social workers, and prison consultants to not just Gatesville, but

550
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: other juvenile detention facilities. Now, the guy who winds up

551
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: in charge of this big investigation is a dude with

552
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: the incredible name Judge William Wayne Justice. Dest have boys

553
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: name Judge Justice. That's right, yeah, Judge William Wayne Justice,

554
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: incredible Texas judge name. Yeah, he only had one choice

555
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: for his career. That's that. You will never convince me

556
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: that's not the name of the judge in the best

557
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: little horehouse in Texas. Yeah, that's what you call all

558
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: that guy like retroactively put a judge in there. Make

559
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: that his name, William Wayne Justice. What an incredible name

560
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: for a judge to Um. Yeah, it's everything everything is

561
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: in that name. Um. So he takes this very seriously.

562
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: He tours the Mountaineer School for Boys and he finds

563
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: as he does a surprise inspection of this facility that

564
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: the children there were like this judge is walking around,

565
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: he sees children caked in old blood, like, oh my god,

566
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: like just left on their bodies, covered in bruises, and

567
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: like whenever he tries to talk to them, they like skirt.

568
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: They're terrified just of his presence, like they've been trained

569
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: to just react with like unthinking terror to the presence

570
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: of an adult. M. Howard Omart was also there. He

571
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: was an expert. He was from the LBJ administration. He

572
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: was an expert LBJ sent along Uh to like look

573
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: at things while Judge Justice was there. Um and Howard

574
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: Omart later said, quote, we have never seen anything quite

575
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: as depressing, so deliberately designed to humiliate, to degrade into debase.

576
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: It is surely oppression, and its simplest and most direct

577
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: form that is the worst man. Yeah. Yeah, designed to humiliate, degrade,

578
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: and debase. That's that's lbj's man. And Judge Justice comes

579
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: to the same conclusions. Yeah, And I mean it's not

580
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: like LBJ is like the greatest dude, but for him

581
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: to be like, yo, this is wild. Yeah. I showed

582
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: my dick to a secret service agent this morning. But

583
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: even I think this is beyond this, totally made on

584
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: my own body. Yeah, you have any idea how many

585
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: people I've killed? Yeah, I ordered the firebombing of a country. Yeah,

586
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: but this isn't right. Yeah, but that's wild dog. Yeah.

587
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: So the extensive investigation sports spurred by the Morale v

588
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: term In case revealed regular use of isolation in Texas

589
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: juvenile criminal justice facilities, um forced psychotropic drugs on children,

590
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: and also rare forms of torture. Among other things, investigators

591
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: found that children were being punished physically for speaking Spanish.

592
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: So called punk dorms had been created for juveniles the

593
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: guards decided, we're homosexual. By this point, a state had

594
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: overcome its squeamishness and incarcerating women, and in one facility,

595
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: guards were found to have forced abortions on pregnant inmates.

596
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Oh my god. A boy at Gatesville told

597
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: a judge about a hazing ritual. Told the judge Judge

598
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: Justice about a hazing ritual he'd been forced to undergo,

599
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: where a group of boys beat him unconscious while guards watched.

600
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: To his credit, Judge Justice, I don't know about the

601
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: rest of his career judge in Texas in the seventies,

602
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: maybe he got up to some fucked up shit. But

603
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: in this case he is as good as his name,

604
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: and he issues a sweeping ruling that outlaws all of

605
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: the fund up ship found at the facilities and requires medical, psychological,

606
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: and educational services to be made available for any children

607
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: in a Texas juvenile justice facility or juvenile detention facility.

608
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: The entire leadership of the state agent see that oversaw

609
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: these facilities was forced to resign. Texas put money into

610
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: probation and other preventative measures, and the juvenile inmate population

611
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: declined rapidly. So this is this is the first time

612
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: to like real ship does have the right thing. This

613
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: is a this makes the situation better. Judge Justice gets

614
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: credit in this. He's a big part of like why

615
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: less kids are in this system. However, as the Washington

616
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 1: Post reports quote the impact of Morales and other important

617
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: federal court rulings was blunted by the persistence of structural

618
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: racial disparities and renewed fears of violent juvenile crime. And

619
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: while the Federal Juvenile Justice and Delinquent Delinquency Prevention Act

620
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy four provided even more funding for state

621
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: and local reforms these kind of like prevention measures and whatnot.

622
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: Historian Elizabeth Hinton has noted that it also labeled quote

623
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: economically vulnerable youths, most of whom were black or Latino,

624
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: as potentially criminal. That's the term used, potentially criminal. Um. Yeah,

625
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: while removing white middle class offenders from the formal justice system.

626
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: And that's why the juvenile inmate system to clients, right,

627
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: it's because they put less white kids there. Like that's

628
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: the big which is good, right, It's like, no kid

629
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: deserves to be in a lot of it's lesser been there.

630
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: But it doesn't fix anything, you know, No, you don't

631
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: want nobody in that system, like nobody should be displayed.

632
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: The numbers and that is that is the main thing,

633
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: is that the criminalization of white and mainly white middle

634
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: class because I think some white poor kids still white

635
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: up in these places. Yeah. Um, but the criminalization of

636
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: like white middle class kids stops to a large degree. Um,

637
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: they're good. Yeah yeah, there's boys being boys. It's like

638
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: a racist firefighter who only rescues the white kids. And

639
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: it's like, well, it's good that less kids died in

640
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: the fire, but you shouldn't be a firefighter, like you

641
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: pat you on the back for that. I mean, I

642
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: guess that kid's happy. Yeah, Like I still feel like

643
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be doing this job. Yeah. Yeah. So in

644
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: the late seventies and early eighties, things where though trending

645
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: in a better direction. Um. And again the decline in

646
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: the prison because it is I should be fair. There

647
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 1: is a reduction in the number of of of black

648
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: Gaspanic kids who are sent to these facility that does

649
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: go down, Like it's not complete, but it is largely

650
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: the number of the kids who don't who stopped going

651
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: these facilities are largely white, right, it is largely based

652
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: on race. Not to because again I don't want to.

653
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: I also don't want to be like completely shipping on

654
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: the people who achieved this because it's good. Um yeah.

655
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: And the idea that like you can't beat me with

656
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: a bat. No, more like the fact that a judge

657
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: was like, well drop, a judge did say that it

658
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: does not stop, but just say like let me at

659
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: least give him that. You. Yeah, know that they do

660
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: not get they put less kids in these facilities. No,

661
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: they keep beating, they keep right the hell. It was like, no,

662
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,479
Speaker 1: we're worried about volume, like quality was different. We want

663
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: like a more boutique experience where we really give each

664
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: kid the beating they deserve. You know, our guards were

665
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: just hitting too many kids. They were losing their passion

666
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: for it. You do you did you watch uh, did

667
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: you watch the Dave Chappelle Show when it was all oh, yeah, absolutely, okay.

668
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: Do you remember the the Gay Clansman. Yes? Yeah, it

669
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: was just like words like the clan We're just a

670
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: little nicer. Yeah, so we'll just we'll just ask you

671
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: to leave, probably back to Africa, like got it. Yeah,

672
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: that's kind of what we've done here, um now in

673
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: the late yeah, so again, the things are getting a

674
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: little bit better in the late seventies and early nineteen eighties,

675
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 1: like there are improvements, but then, like we talked about

676
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: in our first episode, that's when crime really starts to

677
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: rock it upwards right and all crime, but that it

678
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 1: does include juvenile crime, and the panic over super predators

679
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: hits the media. Between nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety six,

680
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: forty states expanded the number of juvenile cases that could

681
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: be tried an adult court and given adult punishments, and

682
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: no state went harder than Texas. When he ran for

683
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: governor in nineteen ninety four, George W. Bush campaigned with

684
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: a promise to lock up more children. In nineteen after

685
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: he won, the state legislature passed an omnibus Juvenile Justice

686
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: Reform Bill, which brought even tougher sentencing for kids accused

687
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: of crimes. The state budgeted another two hundred million dollars

688
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: for facilities, which was enough to triple their capacity to

689
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: incarceraate children. So like Texas is like, we gotta have

690
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: at least three times as many kids locked up in

691
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: this fucking state. Yeah, that opening my job. It is

692
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: worth noting. We forget sometimes because the crimes against humanity

693
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: he committed as president were so extreme. He did some

694
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: of that while he was governor. To his mix tastes

695
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: were pretty crazy, Like y'are only looking at his major

696
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: albums oh, his mix tastes were pretty crazy. It's also

697
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 1: remember like how odd this is tied to like crack.

698
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: Oh yes, and that's that's too much to tell them. Yes,

699
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: that is a and I'm like, let's not let's not

700
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: forget how we got crack. So let's just put that

701
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: on the side. So like, yeah, it's funny how crime

702
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: went up? Well you I mean, well there's well, there's yes.

703
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: We like with every evil thing in American history, the

704
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: CIA is involved, just not directly in this part of

705
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: it though. Yeah. Yeah, and that that is a big

706
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: part of like why there's all of this, like terror

707
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: over juvenile offenders and a big thing that like Bush

708
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: and the Republicans campaign on absolutely. Um So we'll do

709
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: we'll talk, We'll do a Crack episode at some point.

710
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: We really got to get it with me too. It's yeah, yeah,

711
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: it's there's we need to do a whole thing. I

712
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: ran conscious scandal like crack in his three Nicaragua everything. Anyway,

713
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 1: that's all the other things I'm saying it right now. Yes,

714
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: we'll get a couple of parts in there. Um So

715
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: this period um the nineties, kind of the the mid

716
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: nineties when Bush gets elected and you've got like this

717
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: omnibus Juvenile Justice Reform bill. It's noteworthy in Texas because

718
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: it's when they really everyone stops. It has kind of

719
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: been trending this way, but they this is when people

720
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: really stop calling these places training schools and reform schools,

721
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: those terms die. The idea of like trying to hide

722
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: what these places are dies because the people who want

723
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: more of them just call them youth prisons, and they're

724
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: proud of that. They love the idea that they're making

725
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: youth prisons like they don't want to hide that ship

726
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: because like you get elected for being like, oh, hell yeah,

727
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: we're gonna throw a bunch of fucking kids and lock

728
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: them up. You think we got youth prisons. Now, when

729
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: I'm governor, way more youth prisons. I'm gonna put all

730
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: your kids, Wayne, I'm gonna put all eight kids. And

731
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: while they tripled their capacity to lock kids up, Texas

732
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: also doubled the number of kids they were executing. Now

733
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 1: in the United States, prop from n to two thousand five,

734
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: twenty three children were executed. Thirteen of those were in Texas.

735
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: Are you serious? Yeah, Texas fucking loves executing children. Oh yeah,

736
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: we are Look, the United States has an executing children problem,

737
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: but it's also largely a Texas problem. You know that

738
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: is that's a lot. There's a bunch of other states.

739
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're aware there's like forty nine

740
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, I did not know that. In Shock

741
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: and Awe, Yeah, we are huge fans of executing children. Um. Yeah,

742
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: I can't get enough of it really now. This all

743
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: continued swimmingly until February six, two thousand seven, when The

744
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: Texas Observer published an article about a horrific sex abuse

745
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: scandal and a juvenile correction facility near Odessa in West Texas,

746
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna quote again from Who Gets a Childhood

747
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: News reports revealed that the school's assistant superintendent Ray Brookins

748
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: and its principal John Paul Hernandez had coerced sexual favors

749
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: from several juvenile inmates over a period of at least

750
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: two years. Compounding the alleged crime was an inexplicably slow

751
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: response from authorities between December two thousand three. In February

752
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: two thousand five, staff complaints about Brookens and Hernandez a

753
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: suspicious behavior had fallen on deaf ears in the Upper

754
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: echelons of the Texas Youth Commission t y C, the

755
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: agency charged with administering the state's juvenile facilities. Finally, in

756
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: February of two thousand five, Mark Slattery, volunteer math tutor

757
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: from nearby Midland, was approached by two students who wanted

758
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: to confess something ikey. As Slattery later told a reporter,

759
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: I knew it must have been something bad if they

760
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: had no word for it. Slattery Is soon discovered that

761
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: boys were being led into the administration building each night

762
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: for forced encounters with Brookens, who had used his power

763
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: to unilaterally lengthen or shortened youth sentences to exact sex

764
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: from inmates. He can make you stay longer if you

765
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: don't fuck him, and that's what he does. Oh this

766
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: just yeah, oh my god. Yeah yeah, it's bad as

767
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: bad as it gets right there. Oh man, yeah. Um

768
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: shout out though to Mark Slattery. Uh, it is important

769
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: to note that like, this guy clearly cares about these kids.

770
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: Is volunteering to teach like not getting paid, volunteering to

771
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: teach math to incarcerated kids because it's important for them

772
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,959
Speaker 1: to learn and they clearly it says a lot about

773
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: him that these kids know we can trust mrs. We

774
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: can tell him this and he'll he'll do something about it.

775
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 1: By god, he does. Yum, so fucking give this guy something.

776
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: The house whatever is a mixed bag this episode where

777
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: it's like some dudes are dope, some dudes are like

778
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: actual bastard. Yeah, you do have to like this is

779
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: an overwhelmingly bleak story. But whenever you get those those

780
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: little heroes, you've gotta like acknowledge that ship because most

781
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: people clearly didn't do what Mark did. Um. So, uh,

782
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. And again the Texas

783
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: Rangers get involved, and this time they were a little

784
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: more effective than they had been last time. Brookens and

785
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: Hernandez are charged with a bunch of crimes. Both men

786
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: are forced to resign, but the criminal cases against them

787
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 1: grind to a halt in the local county prosecutor's office

788
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: and the U. S. Attorney's office in San Antonio refuses

789
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: to get involved. What is like again, why do you

790
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: like this? Is? This is bad for business. It's bad

791
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: for everybody if this becomes a bigger thing that it

792
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: needs to be. And this is thankfully where journalists come in,

793
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: so obviously this gets out. This is a fun as

794
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: everyone's reactions, this is a fucked up story. The Dallas

795
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: Morning News is is like, all right, well, let's do

796
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: a journalism here, because if if this is happening, there's

797
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: probably some other ship that's going on. If there's one,

798
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: there's four. Yeah. Yeah. So they carry out a huge

799
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: investigation which concludes that the Texas juvenile justice system had

800
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 1: created quote a culture in which prison officials were free

801
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: to abuse their power and punish children who tried to

802
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 1: complain about them. So this story goes viral. National news

803
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: starts to get on the trail left the Dallas Morning

804
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: News covers gets pretty big paper. Um, the big guys,

805
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: the really big guys, start to get in there. Follow

806
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: Up investigations would eventually find more than two thousand confirmed

807
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: allegations of staff on inmate violence between two thousand three

808
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: and two thousand six, including more more than sixty cases

809
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: of kids with suspicious broken bones. To try and quiet

810
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: up outrage, Texas launched an abuse hotline for their child prisons,

811
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: which racked up eleven complaints in its first month. So

812
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, it gets big. It reveals a bound. The

813
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg is revealed. Obviously, I'm gonna guess

814
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: more than two thousand times staff beat kids in a

815
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: three year period in all the Texas prisons, probably a

816
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: couple of times. I'm gonna guess more than sixty kids

817
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: had broken bones, more than sixty, because you know these

818
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: are also kids, their teens. There's a lot of oppositional definance.

819
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's some kids who get bones broken and

820
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: don't want to tell anyone because like I don't want

821
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: you to know you, I don't want you to know

822
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: you hurt me, you know, or I don't want anyone

823
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: like you know. And obviously ship gets covered up, it

824
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: gets hidden. Um, I'm sure it's a lot higher the

825
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: actual umber. They started releasing child prisoners. Tech this did,

826
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: and in March of two thousand seven, a Department of

827
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: Justice investigation concluded and found that conditions in the Evans E.

828
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: V I. N S. Regional Juvenile Center in Edinburgh, Texas

829
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: were bad enough that they had violated the constitutional rights

830
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: of imprisoned youth to be protected from harm while in

831
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: state custody. Evans had an assault rate five times the

832
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: national average. Once this news broke, there were more stories

833
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: about the horrific conditions in the facility, William Bush writes.

834
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: One of the most watched cases was that of Chakwanda Cotton,

835
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old African American girl from the East

836
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: Texas town of Paris, who received an indeterminate terminate sentence

837
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: an indeterminate sentence up to age twenty one for shoving

838
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: a hall monitor in school. Portrayed in the net. Yeah,

839
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: she shoves a hall monitor and she gets an open

840
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: ended sentence. We can keep you up until you're twenty

841
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: one if we want to end sentence. Yeah, this happens

842
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: a lot. So because of the way the Texas juvenile

843
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: justice system gets a lot of these are for like

844
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: up to five years. Again, that's why those that's what

845
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: we talked about, Like those people, those are the superintendence

846
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: of those facilities, of that facility being like, hey, if

847
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: you don't fuck mail, keep you here longer. That's why

848
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: they can keep them here longer. They have they get

849
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: to decide how long the sentences up to this long

850
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: in prison. That's the difference. Okay, now I'm seeing like

851
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: difference between California and because I'm like eighteen, you like

852
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 1: it gets your record sealed, like when you're a juvenile. Yeah,

853
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: it's I mean it's it's fucked up. Um. I mean

854
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: you could get transferred to the like the adult prison,

855
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: but like dang for them to be like, no, I'll

856
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: keep you to one because hey crazy, So Chakonda Cotton,

857
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: this story goes really viral. People are horrified, The national

858
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: press covers it. Um. It gets looked at as a

859
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: victim as like racially motivated um, and she gets a

860
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: release in March two thousand seven. She becomes kind of

861
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: a cause celeb for how like racist the Texas juvenile

862
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: justice system is. Um. She subsequently described conditions at the

863
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: Ron Jack's and State Juvenile Correction Complex in Brownwood, UH,

864
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: during an interview in seventeen magazine. Quote. Seeing the barbed

865
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: wire fences and guards terrified me. I was given an

866
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: orange jumpsuit and socks and taken to my quarters, a

867
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: tiny room that had only a bed, a bookshelf, and

868
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: a desk. Some of the other inmates had committed serious

869
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 1: crimes like murder. This was wait, you said seventeen magazine. Yeah,

870
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: she does an interview for seven seventeen. That's kind of wow,

871
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, good for seventeen. Yeah, I don't know seventeen

872
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: was left some teen Vogue ship right there. Yeah, or

873
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: guess Team Vogue is doing some seventeen ship. I don't

874
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: know that's really because I'm like seventeen pre dates them.

875
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: I remember. I remember seventeen magazine running around the hood

876
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: and it was just the stuff that like for the

877
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: for the little girls, and like, dang, I didn't know

878
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 1: they was about it like that. What year was this?

879
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: Um god, this is like two. It's a little more

880
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: recent than Yeah, yeah, the internet kind of. I mean,

881
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: they're still body shame and girls, but at least they

882
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: doing these articles about girls and HSIT did this so

883
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: people start to care again about abuses in Texas state facilities,

884
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: whistle blowers come forward. Randall Chance, a former inspector for

885
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: the state's juvenile correction facilities, says in an interview that

886
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: quote and this is him, Randall Chance, like works for

887
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: the state Juvenile Correction agency and he's in he inspects facilities.

888
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: He gives an interview where he says, staff are being

889
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: paid your tax money to rape your children. Oh my god.

890
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: Oh not very scary, straight shot, no chaser, homie, he

891
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: cut it very clean for you. That's what's happening. He

892
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: describes t y C, the agency he works for, as

893
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: a dynasty of corruption that condone condones the mistreatment of

894
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: youth and its care. So again, reforms are demanded. The

895
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: t y C governing board is overhauled. They throw out

896
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: the old guys running it, bringing new ones. A state

897
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: investigation is ordered, and as you'd expect, it found a

898
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: lot of evidence of individual wrongdoing. The blame was placed

899
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: on the culture of the agency, which was described as

900
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: having somehow become uniquely toxic. Little discussion focused around the

901
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 1: fact that Texas had been this bad for two thirds

902
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: of a century. So again, this keeps. This is what

903
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: happens every time when they're when something gets done, it's

904
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna arrest and charge these individual guys who committed

905
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: crimes um and we've got to you know, there's a

906
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 1: problem with the culture. We have to fire these dudes

907
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: at the top, and we have to reform the agency

908
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: to fix the culture because it's a culture problem. And

909
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 1: I think at this point in the story it should

910
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: be clear it's not a culture problem. It's a child

911
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: prison problem. This is what happens when you have them.

912
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: They keep trying to reform the culture, and the exact

913
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: same thing happens over and over again. Reforms are fought

914
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: by the people who live there because there's money in there,

915
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 1: and by local politicians because that's where they get voters

916
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: and and fucking campaign donations from UM. And the abuse

917
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: continues because the kind of people who are going to work,

918
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: the kind of jobs that are available at these facilities

919
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: in the middle of o or which don't pay well.

920
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: Are people who get UM are willing to take a

921
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: pay cut to get to hit kids or molest them. Like,

922
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 1: it's not a culture problem. It's a child prison problem

923
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: with the god thing staff. Yeah, it's that the culture

924
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: of this toxic planet. Yeah, it's the fact that you're

925
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: on a toxic planet. It's a culture in that. Like

926
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: if you design a gun that can only shoot seven

927
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: year olds and the people who buy them, Yeah, there's

928
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: a culture problem among the people who buy the guns

929
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,959
Speaker 1: that can only shoot seven year olds, Like, but I guess, yeah,

930
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: they're probably all very unpleasant people. But that's not really

931
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: the problem, is it. It's that we built a gun

932
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: to shoot seven year olds. Yes, the issue is is

933
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: is not the people buying these are bad, like they are, sure,

934
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: but that's really not where the problems started. As both

935
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: in situation here, guys, do we need these things? Yeah,

936
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: it's not either or I feel like it's a both

937
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: end Yeah. Um, but you know who doesn't shoot seven

938
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: year olds? Prop unless it's the Washington State would patrol again,

939
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: in which case they do. Um, but probably not unless

940
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 1: it's also unless it's then potentially yes, uh we're back.

941
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: So if you were an optimistic type, you could be

942
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: forgiven for looking at the fallout from the two thousand

943
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: seven revelations of horrific abuse in Texas facilities and thinking,

944
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: like ship things are headed in the right direction again,

945
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: like this might, we might, we might fix a lot

946
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 1: of stuff, and a lot of good stuff does happen.

947
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: I should say that Texas closes more than half of

948
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 1: their youth prisons. They gut the juvenile justice system. They

949
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: dramatically reduced the number of incarcerated kids, and resources are

950
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: diverted from incarcerating kids to programs to try and prevent

951
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: youth crime. This is great, Like again, this is a

952
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: big deal. But it's a big deal because it removes

953
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: kids from the system. Um. Journalists and politicians who demanded

954
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: change and brought out this information improve material conditions for

955
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: the kids who get released and the kids who don't

956
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: go to juvenile prison because that becomes less common. That

957
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: is undeniable. But it is not a reform of these facilities,

958
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: because if it was a reform, it would mean that

959
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: the facilities themselves are getting better, and that's not what happens.

960
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: The facilities continue to be a fucking nightmare. There's less

961
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: kids in them. Again, that's huge, really big deal, but

962
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: for those inside, it's a lot of basically might I

963
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: don't have a way of claiming this in any objective

964
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: sense because again, our data is always imperfect here, but

965
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: like the same problems continue to persist. Yeah, so it's

966
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: like the statistics go down because there's just less humans. Yeah,

967
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: the reform is we've got to take kids out of

968
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: this thing, which might suggest that, like, if we really

969
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: wanted to reform it, we would not let any kids

970
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: be in these places. Yeah, we can close it forever,

971
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 1: I mean, then would be no kids in it. That

972
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: might work, That would be my argument um. And again,

973
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: obviously the people who succeed in this, it's not abolition,

974
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: but it's a lot less kids in prison. That's great.

975
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 1: But again the facilities stay exactly the same as they've

976
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: been for a century. So fast forward ten years, two

977
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen, the Dallas Morning News publishes a blockbuster investigation

978
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: into abuses at the Gainesville State School, which, despite its name,

979
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: is a child prison. It just happens to have some desks.

980
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: Here's how that article opened. Proper. Youths at the Gainesville

981
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: State School say staff paid them with drugs and cash

982
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: to assault one another. A psychologist at the campus gave

983
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: pornography to a boy there to encourage the young man

984
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: to masterbait. In front of him, youth attacked a guard

985
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: and stole his radio so he couldn't call for help.

986
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 1: By the time he had the help arrived, the officer

987
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: had a broken nose and needed four stitches over his eye. So, wow,

988
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: West and there, Yeah, it's the wild West in there,

989
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: and like the same abuses are happening, And like that

990
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: staff paying kids with drugs and cash to assault each other,

991
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: that's bounties. It's like there's this whole system where the

992
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: guards when kids will like funk with them. Sometimes it's

993
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: cases like this where they beat up a guard, but

994
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,439
Speaker 1: oftentimes it's just a kid they find annoying. They will

995
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: pay other kids with drugs, but like give kids cocaine

996
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: and heroin to beat the ship out of kids who

997
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: annoy them. That's an endemic problem in this facility. That's unfortunately,

998
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: well yeah, rant not not common normal, Yeah yeah, yeah,

999
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: it's everywhere. Um, but it's usually not kids. It's usually

1000
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: not children, is yeah to um. But again Texas doesn't

1001
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: really see the need to treat them as children. Uh.

1002
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: Now that article had a lot of really good stuff

1003
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: in it, very important piece of journalism, um, but it

1004
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: still contains some of the same problems we've seen over

1005
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: and over again. Here's one line I found particularly frustrating.

1006
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: It's a bad culture, said Debbie Unrah, an independent watchdog

1007
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: charged with ensuring the safety of youths in the Texas

1008
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: Juvenile Justice Department's custody. It's a dangerous culture. And again

1009
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: that's true. It's a add culture. The culture of like

1010
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: guys who were guards and child prisons is bad. Um,

1011
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: But that's not the central problem. Um. The claim that, like,

1012
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: it's a problem with the culture at this prison might

1013
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: hold water if we didn't have a century of documentation

1014
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: that this happens in every one of these facilities the

1015
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: state of Texas operates. It's constant, and it's for generations. Um.

1016
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: The article quoted juvenile justice advocates who once again complained

1017
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: that part of the problem was locking kids in remote

1018
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: rural facilities far from home. UM. Which is absolutely absolutely true. Right,

1019
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:35,919
Speaker 1: if you are looking at ways to minimize harm, don't

1020
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: put him so far away where there's no services. Yeah.

1021
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: And like the um frequency of your family visiting, Yeah,

1022
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: it's going to be yeah. Yeah. Now that article also

1023
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: contains more detail about the staff psychologist who gave a

1024
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: child pornography so that he could watch that child masturbate. Um.

1025
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna read a quote about that now. Vincent Rager,

1026
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: now third one, began working at Gainesville in two thousand fifteen.

1027
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 1: His online resume indicates he provided individual psychotherapy to boys

1028
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: at the school. Rager resigned during the investigation. Officials said

1029
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: records show he resigned in lieu of vault of involuntary separation,

1030
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: so he resigns in order to avoid being fired. Reached

1031
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: my phone earlier this week, Ranger said he resigned because

1032
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: he wanted to move to California. Ranger now works as

1033
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist treating male prisoners at current Valley State

1034
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: Prison in Bakersfield, California. Now they're adults. Well they're grown up,

1035
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: so that's better. Oh my, I might say you should

1036
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: never get to work as a clinical psychologist, like like

1037
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: that might that might disqualify you for doing that. Ever,

1038
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: you should you should not have a license to do

1039
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: any of this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so again we should

1040
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: consider perhaps the possibility that like this is not just

1041
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: a problem with like Texas, it is also an American problem. Right,

1042
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: he goes right away and gets a job, and fucking California.

1043
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: You like, are we that hard pressed for people to Yeah,

1044
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: like we're that hard pressed for like employment. Yeah, these

1045
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: facilities are in the middle of nowhere. They pay for ship. Um,

1046
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: it's not enjoyable work. It's not very well respected, respected work.

1047
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: So like there, I know there are good people doing

1048
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: that job in in the system, but like a lot

1049
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: of bad people get that because it's like you're not

1050
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: getting the very best generally. Yeah, you have to be

1051
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: mission driven, Yeah, if you're going to stay in the

1052
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: that work because the work is trash. Yeah, it's it's

1053
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 1: like you obviously you get great teachers in these juvenile

1054
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: facilities sometimes like the guy we already taught, Marked Slattery,

1055
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: the guy we talked to. I'm saying, like, that's where

1056
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: I started teaching. I started teaching in juvenile facilities. I

1057
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: was like, but also, you're gonna get a bunch of

1058
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: basket cases who this is the gig they could get

1059
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: because they did something. Yeah, and it's not if it's

1060
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: easy to not like you're as this whole episode is.

1061
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: It's easy to not care and still get away with

1062
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: it because you're just from a teacher perspective, It's just

1063
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: a couple of packets. It's like continuation school. If anybody

1064
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: ever been to that, It's like it's packets. You just

1065
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,479
Speaker 1: felt the packets. And I just make sure you guys

1066
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: don't hurt each other. And the way that I'm sitting

1067
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: right now, y'all can't see this listeners, but like my

1068
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: feet are like leaned up against the wall. I'm leaning

1069
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 1: back with the mic and I don't have to care

1070
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: about I can sit like this for the thirty minutes

1071
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: of class and just make sure you don't stab each other.

1072
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: And if you do, all I gotta do is call

1073
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: the p O and he comes in. Yeah, and then

1074
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: you'll have then you'll go, you know, to a worse

1075
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: place potentially. Yeah, basically like don't have to, so you

1076
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: have to you have to care if you're gonna be

1077
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, and you get in these places special

1078
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: that isn't all that different. You get this mix of

1079
00:59:54,720 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: like the most dedicated, wonderful, caring people, imaginable and every

1080
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: like people who are either just waiting out a clock,

1081
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: and then a tiny number of people who are sucking

1082
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: monsters and know that that's where the least lies are

1083
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 1: eyes are on them, you know, um, and perhaps more

1084
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: could be done to make more caring and wonderful people

1085
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: able to do that job. And few were at least

1086
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: few were monsters. I'm not gonna say like, look, you're

1087
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: always gonna have some people waiting out the clock, but

1088
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: you don't have to have the monsters exactly. We can

1089
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,919
Speaker 1: avoid having we can avoid like, let's set hire few

1090
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: monsters and as much as you can. Yeah, you know,

1091
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: because some people get through the cracks, Like, yeah, I

1092
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: go a lot. I know personal information about that, but

1093
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: like people get through the cracks. Sure, you know, some

1094
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: lies obviously a monster maybe like that's maybe don't hire Yeah,

1095
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I don't hire monsters speaking of monsters that

1096
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: somebody hired Governor Greg Abbott. Um, there's all these well

1097
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: this is I mean, he's not the bad guy or

1098
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: the good guy here. He does the thing that everyone

1099
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: else does every time something like this happens. There's this

1100
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: big investigation and all of this press about how bad

1101
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: Texas juvenile justice system is and he fires the person

1102
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: in charge. Right, how many times does that happen? This

1103
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 1: fucking story. Yeah, there's a bunch of talk of reform

1104
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: and YadA YadA YadA. Uh that nothing significant changes, um,

1105
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: or at least the changes do not fix all the

1106
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: problems that we have been talking about all episode. Um.

1107
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: Here's the New York Times reporting in two thousand nineteen. Quote.

1108
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: In October twenty nineteen, a prison officer who worked at

1109
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: a juvenile detention facility in central Texas was charged with

1110
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: sexual assault and accused of forcing a boy in custody

1111
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: to perform oral sex on him in his cell. The

1112
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: incident came to light the day after the alleged crime

1113
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: when the boy tried to kill himself. Two months before that,

1114
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: at another detention facility in Texas, a corrections officer was

1115
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: fired after a teenage girl said she was pregnant with

1116
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: his child. He was later charged in connection with that case,

1117
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: and in May of last year, another prison worker was

1118
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: arrested on charges that he had carried on a relationship

1119
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: with the teenager who was on parole. At five state

1120
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: juvenile detention centers, the day to day conditions are relentlessly

1121
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 1: violent and oppressive, with guards often resorting to force. According

1122
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: to a complaint filed to the Justice Department in two

1123
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: thousand nineteen, prison staff used force on incarcerated children almost

1124
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: seven thousand times, equivalent to six times per child who

1125
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: was confined there. Oh my god. Yeah uh, this it

1126
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: just feels so personal, like, oh my god, dude. Yeah yeah.

1127
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: So these findings came courtesy if yet another Justice Department investigation.

1128
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: How many of those? Have we seen? This episode? Right?

1129
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: The DJ investigated who hooray and like like we here

1130
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: in the date, like this is two thousand nineteen. Yeah,

1131
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 1: I know, with COVID and make it that feels like

1132
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: eight you know, because of COVID. But that's three years ago, guys,

1133
01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. Um. Now that Justice An investigation had

1134
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: started in two eighteen, when two Texas advocacy groups begged

1135
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 1: the federal government to intervene, arguing that Governor Abbott's promised

1136
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 1: to personally monitor the juvenile justice system would not be sufficient.

1137
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 1: It wasn't, which is why everything I read you you know,

1138
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: was found UM. And obviously it's good that the Justice

1139
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: Department documented this UM. But at the same time, I

1140
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: think this is kind of a perfect example of the

1141
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: actual logic behind a CAB. I think that slogans a

1142
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 1: lot less useful politically than it than it ever has been,

1143
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: but the sentiment behind it applies because these investigators, these

1144
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: Justice Department people, document this. This is important work. It's

1145
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: important to document this. It's critical, UM. And I think

1146
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: these I'm sure these people care. I'm sure they see

1147
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: horrific abuse, they want to stop it. They documented, and

1148
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure they go to bed each night exhausted and sad,

1149
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: but certain that they're doing work that needs to be done.

1150
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 1: But as we've seen over and over again in this story,

1151
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 1: all of these investigations are part of how the system

1152
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 1: perpetuates itself. Guards rape and beat children, whistleblowers and watchdogs complain,

1153
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: government investigation leads to reform, and then guards keep raping

1154
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 1: and beating children. These investigations and the media cycle that

1155
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: follows them are a necessary part of the cathartic loop

1156
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: that Texas has been stuck in for more than a

1157
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: hundred years. This is a part of the loop. This

1158
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 1: is how people how it gets perpetuated again and again,

1159
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: not that like they're they're bad people for investigating this ship,

1160
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: but it also is like that when I say, like,

1161
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, all whatever whatever are bastards or whatnot in

1162
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: the system. That's what we mean the system. The system

1163
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: eliminates the possibility of being good because the system cannot

1164
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: be reformed. So even if you're working for something that

1165
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: looks like reform in the system, a lot of what

1166
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: you're going to be doing is keeping the loop going.

1167
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 1: And it's not that simple because obviously some of these

1168
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: investigations are part of why there's a massive reduction in

1169
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: the number of kids who are in car Sward and

1170
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: that's huge. Um So it's not I don't want to

1171
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: be painting it is that simple, but like it does,

1172
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: it's just doesn't get better. The actual prisons themselves don't

1173
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: get better. That there are less kids in them, and

1174
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: that's good, but the things keep happening because we just

1175
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 1: can't have these places and those things not happen. Yeah,

1176
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: that's the like the argument about like abolition, it's just

1177
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: like we just have to start over, like because reforms,

1178
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 1: you're just it's just duct tape, and it's not and

1179
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: it's not stopping, it's not fixing the problem. You'll just

1180
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: keep adding duct tape and it's and sometimes the duct

1181
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: tape muffles the sound from inside. Yeah, you know, makes

1182
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: people think that we've fixed it. Yes, and pretty poetic there, Robert,

1183
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: every now and then. Yeah, Yeah, there's a part of

1184
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,919
Speaker 1: me that questions the value of continuing to loop through

1185
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: all of these stories, all of these details of abuse,

1186
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: all of these statistics, over and over again, every cycle

1187
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: that this happens. And um, because again, I think the

1188
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: only real thing to do is empty these facilities out,

1189
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: burn them down, and throw any person who suggests rebuilding

1190
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 1: them into the Gulf of Mexico. But that said, I

1191
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: also don't want to ignore the work that these these

1192
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: journalists in these Department of Justice people do and in

1193
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: documenting this because the stories of these victims, these victims

1194
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: are important. And so to close us out, I'm going

1195
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: to read one more quote from that article that I

1196
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: decided from about Christie Dennis. Her son was fifteen when

1197
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: he was sent to the McLennan County State Juvenile Correction

1198
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 1: Facility and marked Texas quote. Miss Dennis was horrified when

1199
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 1: she called one day in two thousand nineteen and learned

1200
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: that her son had been beaten and taunted as guards

1201
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: apparently stood by. Her son was sent to the jail's

1202
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: doctors on one occasion, she said, and she was later

1203
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 1: told that many guards did not intervene because they were

1204
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 1: afraid of the youth themselves. Miss Dennis said her son

1205
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: ended up at the center after taking her car without

1206
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: permission several times and money from her purse. After talking

1207
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: to the authorities, she was advised that if she wanted

1208
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 1: to teach her son a lesson, he needed to go

1209
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: to a juvenile facility. A decision, Miss Dennis said, a

1210
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: decisiency ended up regretting. The attacks against her son escalated

1211
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: to the point where he begged guards to keep him

1212
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: in solitary confinement. Released in July, months before his seventeenth birthday,

1213
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 1: he now works at a fast food restaurant and his

1214
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: earning his g e D with plans to pursue welding.

1215
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: But he is not the same as he was before

1216
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: his detention. She said. He has PTSD, he hears a noise,

1217
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 1: and he panics. And that's another important when we talk

1218
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: about the complicity in the system and the degree to

1219
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: which maybe some of these people documenting these abuses or

1220
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: even complicit, another person or group of people who are

1221
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: complicit are parents in these communities, parents who turn in

1222
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: their kids, parents who support these laws, parents who who

1223
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: support funding these places. UM. I think it's probably fair

1224
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: to say that of the adults I knew as a child,

1225
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: UM were to that degree complicit in this system because

1226
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 1: they supported keep opening more places. The politicians who supported

1227
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: these places, and they were convinced that it was the

1228
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: right thing to do. And the result of a lot

1229
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: of people being convinced that this is the right thing

1230
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 1: to do. It's not just the rapists and the murderers

1231
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 1: and the pedophiles, UM, or the venal politicians who make

1232
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 1: this possible. It's the people who think they're doing the

1233
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: best thing for society. And the result of everything of

1234
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: both the actions of these horrible rapists and whatnot in

1235
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 1: pedophiles and the actions of what I'm sure loving parents

1236
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: and dedicated employees and the justice part whatnot the result

1237
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: of all of that is a system that rapes, beats,

1238
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 1: and murders children on an industrial scale. That's why I

1239
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 1: opened this episode with, like, I am a parent, and

1240
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 1: the part of me that understands at least can empathize

1241
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,799
Speaker 1: what it what it feels like to have a child

1242
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: that you don't know what to do with, Like I

1243
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: deeply understand that, you know, um, and the part of

1244
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: you that like the reality that you're still unpacking your

1245
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: own trauma, Like just from just the time of age

1246
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: of civilization we're in, it was like, like you said,

1247
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 1: we were odd enough to where we could get spanked

1248
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 1: at school, Like that's that Like we're like, it's not

1249
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: that long ago that we actually realized that that was barbaric,

1250
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So so you're you're you're

1251
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: processing your own upbringing realizing, and then the parts of

1252
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 1: you that feels like like even with me, where I'm like, well,

1253
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: there's a been times that I've been like, well, I

1254
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:25,719
Speaker 1: kind of earned that spanking, you know what I'm saying,

1255
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: Like I probably should have got spank for that, you

1256
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying That now I can't. I look

1257
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 1: at both my children and I'm like, ain't in a

1258
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: damn world I would put my hands on my kids,

1259
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,799
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like it just seems so

1260
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: like unthinkable like that, I don't. I just don't think

1261
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: I could. I could never do it, you know what

1262
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 1: I'm saying. But when I got married again I'm black,

1263
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: like black people spank their kids. When I got married

1264
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 1: Southern people, they spanked their kids, is so normal. And

1265
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 1: then so I'm like that no doubt in my mind,

1266
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: and my parents loved me like I'm not. I would

1267
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: never take that for my parents loved me. I have

1268
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 1: great relationship with my with my mom at least, you

1269
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, but like you know, uh, you know,

1270
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 1: and and a better one with my father now. But like, um,

1271
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: that being said, I'm like the part of me that

1272
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: understands that you're just like I don't. And I'm from

1273
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 1: the city, so I'm just sometimes we'd be like nah,

1274
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 1: and how we need to go to jail, you know

1275
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. And then but then you get there,

1276
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 1: which is why I feel like sometimes for me and

1277
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,680
Speaker 1: my wife, like us who've been advocates who have like

1278
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, been to the Congress, like stood to our

1279
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 1: our front of our our councilmen and been like, you know,

1280
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 1: our our senators and been like, this ship got to stop,

1281
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. They have like done the work,

1282
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: done the therapy for ourselves. We've made enough money to

1283
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: be able to do therapy for ourselves, to be able

1284
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 1: to be like to come to the conclusions that we're

1285
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: at now, to be like, this ship isn't working, you

1286
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, And having the experience of like

1287
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: having friends that have been through the system, you know,

1288
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 1: ourselves somehow, you know, have in our own interactions with

1289
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 1: the system to be able to look at our own

1290
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 1: children and everybody else's children and be like, listen, this

1291
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: is not the answer. You know what I'm saying. And

1292
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 1: it's not it's it's not doing what you think it's doing.

1293
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel like that's a privilege of mine, even

1294
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 1: coming from poverty, coming from the hood, is having a

1295
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,680
Speaker 1: privilege of understanding that, like, yo, the system you think

1296
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: is gonna rehabilitate your children have has no that was

1297
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: never in their purview. Joe saying that was never that

1298
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 1: was never on the table was rehabilitating them. You know

1299
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,720
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Um, so I raised my children in

1300
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 1: a different like even tho it's looking at like my

1301
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: own like like friends being like, yeah, we don't spank

1302
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: our kids and being like friends being like what like yo,

1303
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: I was like no, like we've you know, saying we

1304
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 1: it's a we're in a it's all that say. I'm

1305
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 1: stuttering now because I feel so passionate about this to

1306
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 1: where it's like the complicity because you talked about the

1307
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 1: complicency and that's the complicency that like sits as a

1308
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: parent to where you're like, but I'm also terrified for

1309
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: my child and I don't want them to make bad decisions,

1310
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 1: and I feel like they're not listening to me. And

1311
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 1: I know what scared me straight was being scared. So

1312
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, maybe that's gonna But then you realize

1313
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: it's like, no, you're creating a criminal. You're traumatizing your

1314
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: child and not understanding how you're traumatizing your child because

1315
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 1: you think they know you love them. But like all

1316
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 1: of that put together and then and then like you said,

1317
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: like coming out of the other end and being like

1318
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,479
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do my best I'm I'm, I'm I'm.

1319
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying a lot here because like, again, it's so

1320
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 1: important to me. I just like I just went through

1321
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 1: a situation on another on a nonprofit. I'm on the

1322
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 1: board of that, Like you know, we had to go

1323
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 1: through a moment to where it was like when you

1324
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 1: sit that, I've never been in a situation where I'm

1325
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:06,639
Speaker 1: actually at the part of the table where I have

1326
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: the range, like I can actually make change here, you

1327
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, where I'm like, I'm actually the

1328
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 1: one in power now, like I'm usually one outside of

1329
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: the door. Now I'm actually in it. But then once

1330
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: you're sitting at that and you're like, oh man, there's

1331
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,639
Speaker 1: like there's really a lot at steak here when I

1332
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 1: if I make this decision that seems so easy when

1333
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 1: I was outside, you know what I'm saying, But now

1334
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: that I'm in and you're like, that's like you like

1335
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 1: how you keep trying to like balance your understanding of

1336
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 1: like these journalists and these like justice workers that were like, yo,

1337
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: like we're doing what is obviously the right thing, you

1338
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, But like at the end of

1339
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 1: the day, you're still laying your head like, but we ship, dude, Like,

1340
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: I mean I can't. I mean, what we really need

1341
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:54,800
Speaker 1: to do, you know what I'm saying, Like you said,

1342
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:58,800
Speaker 1: which really is close them all, but you're like, but funk,

1343
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: like I don't have the I mean, this is the

1344
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: best I could do, you know what I'm saying. It's

1345
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: just like I understand so much more now at this

1346
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,679
Speaker 1: stage in my life, in my career and my parents

1347
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 1: being like all of those nuances. You know, I just

1348
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:13,600
Speaker 1: wish I could just rap about it. I wish I

1349
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 1: could just wrap about it. Do podcasts, you know, saying yeah,

1350
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 1: I mean you do. You do have a podcast. I

1351
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 1: do have a podcast, and I do talk about the ship,

1352
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, I wish I had some cathartic

1353
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 1: way to deal with it. Yeah, rapping sounds actually extremely cathartic.

1354
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: It really is. Bro But I still think I think

1355
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 1: I said that when the first time I was on

1356
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: the show, like, yo, let me write a rap for

1357
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,640
Speaker 1: you man, Like, yeah, yeah, I hear you're rid them

1358
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 1: though I don't know you're RIDM Like if you if

1359
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 1: I could write it, but if you got rid of them,

1360
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 1: like I don't know, absolutely not, Um, Yeah, that's that

1361
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 1: that that that that that will always just be something

1362
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 1: I have to admire from afar Um. But I don't

1363
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: know what do you you got anything to plug PROP

1364
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: at the end, at the end of this very bleak

1365
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: day of talking about child prisms that proud right there

1366
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 1: for you, and then we should perform it at the

1367
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: live show. I do have something to plug. I'm happy

1368
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 1: with PROP performing at the live show. I don't think

1369
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 1: any that's that's not what they're paying for. So I

1370
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:19,600
Speaker 1: bet you right now if I were to throw on

1371
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: because you've mentioned it already on our shelves, I to

1372
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 1: throw on like a most like a black on both

1373
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:28,639
Speaker 1: sides record, but you could probably wrap along. There are

1374
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:32,679
Speaker 1: songs out there, some some of the doom Tree stuff.

1375
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 1: I bet you have to throw on both few of

1376
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 1: them tracks, few of them atmosphere songs. You already know

1377
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 1: that you could probably wrap a love Yeah. I may

1378
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 1: have listened to an astop rocker two in my time. Yes,

1379
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 1: and that's listen, that's some complex rapping, like you know

1380
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. That ain't that ain't some easy that

1381
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: ain't some that ain't some easy bars Like that's some

1382
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 1: complex rapping anyway. Yes, dot com, we'll see how drunk

1383
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 1: I get during the live stream. But that's one more

1384
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 1: reason to check out the live stream. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

1385
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 1: and hit me on Twitter. I'm trying to come up

1386
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: with a game for us to play during the live

1387
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 1: stream that might involve how drunk. I feel like all

1388
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 1: the ones are like the boy Howdies and like the

1389
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,640
Speaker 1: Hitler calls. I'd be like, man, Luckily nobody calls me

1390
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 1: out on my life. You know what I'm saying, because

1391
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 1: I felt like you wasted, wasted immediately first ten minutes. Yeah. Anyways, Yeah,

1392
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: profit pop dot com. I got some new coffee content

1393
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 1: coming out, like got some uh, got some you know,

1394
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 1: music and politics, pod Man, we're getting got renewed, thank you.

1395
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 1: Cool more shows coming, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah,

1396
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: check it out. Check out prop check out props book,

1397
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: check out check us out for our live stream on

1398
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 1: check out our live stream on February seventeenth, Moment dot

1399
01:16:55,920 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 1: com slash behind the Bastard. Yeah, check that out. And also,

1400
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 1: I have a fiction book that is on pre sale

1401
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 1: right now. If you order during the pre sale for

1402
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 1: the next couple of months, you will get a signed

1403
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,559
Speaker 1: copy when it comes out in May. Google a k

1404
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:14,599
Speaker 1: press after the revolution, and that's where my book will be,

1405
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 1: a K press after the revolution. By a copy of

1406
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: my novel I learned about a skull fucker, Mike, school

1407
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 1: fucker Mike. All right, Yeah, that's a great book. Man.

1408
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:29,639
Speaker 1: You're like, fiction is hard to write. It really is. Boy,

1409
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:33,759
Speaker 1: howdy that You're like, well, I'm making up a story.

1410
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 1: Like we've been making up stories since we've been sneaking

1411
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:38,639
Speaker 1: out in front of our parents, Like we've been making

1412
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:41,880
Speaker 1: up stories. But like it's really hard. So like yo,

1413
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 1: kudo's way easier to just be a judge. Apparently money

1414
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 1: shim great boy. Alright, boy, howdy indeed, I am Texan. Alright,

1415
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: that's the episode. Bam