WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: TechStuff Listens to Negativland 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.320 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.160 job in Strickland. I'm an executive producer with iHeart Radio 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:19.119 and I love all things tech. It is time for 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:22.200 a tech Stuff classic episode. This episode, originally published on 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:27.920 January two thousand fifteen, is called tech Stuff Listens to 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:33.200 Negative Land. Negative Land being a kind of outsider music group, 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:38.080 transgressive music group, if you, If you will, also ties 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.479 into topics that we've talked about recently on tech Stuff, 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:45.200 like copyright and fair use. And I hope you enjoy 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:47.960 how many time zones there are in the Soviet Junion. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.840 Power and all that. That's power. We've got so much power. 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:57.200 That's ridiculous. Power, power and power. What you're hearing is 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.360 the work of a performance group called Negative Land. The 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.520 band creates interesting sounds from accommodation of electronics, musical instruments, 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.120 and an enormous library of pre recorded audio from sources 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.320 as diversus political speeches to music numbers to old television 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:21.600 commercial guest I spoke with Mark Hustler, one of the 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.039 founding members of Negative Land. Our conversation lasted for more 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.760 than two hours and we talked about topics like art, music, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:33.120 intellectual property, and more. Well, this episode has highlights from 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.959 that conversation. I really learned a lot. And the first 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.640 thing I wanted to know was how Mark got interested 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:40.720 in this type of art in the first place. I 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:42.640 was really into all kinds of music as a teenager, 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:44.120 and there was just some kind of record that I 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.360 wanted to hear that didn't seem to exist. And so 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.400 at some point when I was sixteen or seventeen, you know, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.160 I said, well, I want to let's make We're gonna 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.000 make that record, and that's who we did, and it 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.480 came out when I was still in high school. The 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.960 we in this case was Mark Hustler and Richard Lyons. 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.360 Others would join Nega of Land over the years, including 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.680 Don Joyce, who hosts the band's weekly radio show, and 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.480 Ian Allen, who passed away in early The group's membership 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.640 changed many times throughout its existence, and each member contributed 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:17.200 a unique perspective, and the band has always been about experimentation. 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.839 You've got a good beginning list and trial and era. 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.120 It's just a pend again on breaking the records of 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:31.919 the radio. We've been around an extremely long time I've 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.720 actually known the guys in the group for thirty six years. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.680 Our first record came out of Night and for some 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.360 reason which I don't really quite understand, we all just 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:46.160 love strange, weird, funny noises and found things and reusing 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.680 stuff in ways they weren't intended to be used. And 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.880 so our very first recordings were making tape loops, or 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.160 you could cut real to real recording tape and stick 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:55.760 one end to the other and they repeat over and 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.880 over again, you know, and echo, and you could stick 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.519 pieces of metal into with guitar and make the guitar 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.400 string sound all strange. And we were recording things off 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.600 the TV and radio and our parents, you know, baking 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:10.639 in the kitchen and the sound of the our dog 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.200 barking outside, and all this stuff made its way into 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.560 our into our recorded work, and it was kind of 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.760 surreal data koufy collage. We also put in beats and 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.800 sometimes sang little songs, and it had a somewhat pop 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:23.960 kind of sensibility to it in a way, in a 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:32.280 screwy sort of way, too stupid great or dumb five 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:41.960 six ideottics. The experiments would evolve into projects, and while 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.440 the tools the band used to create their sounds would change, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.080 the medium in which they worked would remain sound collage. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:50.600 Collage is a medium that I think is one of 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.040 the easiest art forms in the world, whether it was 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:59.120 sound or film or visual art, to do something really crappy. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.520 It's really only easy to do collage and just have 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.240 it be really mediocre. And I but to to to 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.120 really get it to where it's it's it's at a 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.400 level that we think meets that you know, our our standard. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.120 You know, it requires a lot of work and thinking 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.080 about it. And we've had lots of pieces that get 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.320 to a point, but they're just not there yet, you know, 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.080 and we sit on them for six months or even 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.599 a year later we'll go back. In fact, the band 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.960 might sit on a piece for decades. One piece Negative 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.160 Land recently revisited is a work called Like a Cattle 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.559 Act the Gun by the late Well. I was thinking 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:42.880 of a Cadillac Cadillac, got Wreck, Cadillac, Catillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Catillac, Lack, Cadillac, Lack, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Lack, Cadillac, 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.560 La Cadillac, Catillac Alan First worked on the piece back 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.080 in the nineteen eighties. Before his death, Alan gave his 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.159 blessing to Negative Land to revisit and finish the recording. 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.920 Alan was also instrumental in shaping the band's cultural and 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.480 social perspectives. Before long, the band was using its quirky 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.640 techniques not just to make interest sounds, but to provide 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.400 commentary on various issues. It just kept being really interesting 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.880 that you could use collage, you know, to talk about 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.279 stuff in this way that invited the listener to work 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.040 on figuring out what you were getting at into some degree. 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.880 You know, we don't spell everything out, but we try 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.240 to do something where it's both about stuff, but there's 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.640 some thing about it. It's open enough that you're engaged 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.000 and you're drawn in and you're trying to work with it, 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.839 and hopefully that's the place where you know, you get 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.839 something out of it that's interesting and it's and different 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.240 for every person who hears it. And because so many 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.880 of the sounds Negative Land uses in its collage work 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.160 are taken from other sources, you can't just assume that 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.080 what you're hearing and what the band itself thinks are 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:45.400 necessarily the same thing. While we do sometimes actually write 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.919 song lyrics and do songs. Most of the spoken word 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.960 you hear in our work is appropriated in collage, So 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.320 it's not us saying it. We're not It is not 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.880 the author's voice. You're hearing that. It's what we chose 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.599 to use. Well did we choose to Is it because 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.800 we agree with it? We disagree with it, we like it, 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:08.040 we hate it. We think it's funny, stupid, smart, sad, creepy, annoying, 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:12.000 you know, surreal, And usually for negative Land, will the 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.119 things we pick to you is will usually be something 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:15.760 that will be of many of those things all at 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:29.760 the same time. Listen, this is not all that shouting, 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.240 all that noise. Ian Allen's involvement would lead to another 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:40.080 pivotal moment in negative lands development, meeting Don Joyce. Joyce 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.719 is a radio DJ who not only joined Negative Land, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.359 but also helped create a venue for the group to 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.960 express themselves to a larger audience. It's called over the 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.440 Edge for Negative Land. One of the kind of laboratories 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.880 for us to work on new ideas and try out 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.320 new stuff is our weekly radio show. It's called Over 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.440 the Edge. It's been on, it's still on to this day, 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.839 and it's three hours of audio collage that's always about 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.120 a theme of some sort or another. And Negative Land 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:08.800 member Don Joyce is the one who has been kind 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.280 of the steward of keeping that flame alive all these years. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.680 He uses old radio station cart machines. If any of 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.560 you out there are radio makers or listeners are old 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.200 enough to know, he uses old school dead analog technology 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.480 to play dude live cut ups stuff on the air. Yeah, 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.520 we get to try out stuff and occasionally the ideas 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.280 of emerge from that that we think are good enough 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.400 to take out and turn into studio recordings or maybe 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.200 a live show. And for those Negative Land fans who 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.280 want to explore that material, band member Tom Maloney has 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.200 been hard at work transferring files to archive dot org 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.800 so that the thousands of hours of programming will become 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.520 available to anyone with an Internet connection. It's a mind 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.400 blowingly huge amount of work that will be available for free. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.760 As any artist will tell you, art doesn't exist in 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.320 a vacuum. Art doesn't just reflect the world around us. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.320 It comments on that world. We see elm of the 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.520 artist's thoughts and feelings within his or her art. And 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.000 while you might think that creating a collage out of 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.800 appropriate material limits and artists ability to comment upon the world, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.440 you'd be wrong. As Mark explained to me, collage is 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.600 just another artistic medium, not significantly different from any other 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.680 means of artistic expression. Basically, to me, our work is 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.920 no different than somebody lives in a cave ten thousand 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.360 years ago who takes a stick out of the fire 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.320 and uses the burnt end to draw on the cave 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.520 wall what's outside of his cave, which could be buffalo 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.880 or a mammoth, you know. So that's no different than 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.760 me taking a computer, a tape deck, a cassette deck, 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.480 a real tool, chape recorder, a digital capturing device, and 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.960 I'm capturing the world around me that I live in 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.480 the world. It's in my home, the world it's outside 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.560 my door. And that world is not just walls and 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:58.800 furniture and trees and blue sky and buildings. It's advertisements, 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.600 it's logos, pop songs, it's media. Absolutely everywhere you go 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:14.959 person needs. That's great, and so negative lands are often 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.480 comments on these facets of life. The way messages are 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:22.000 communicated to us and how we are expected to react 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:30.080 to them amusing, And there's Another conversation happening as well, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:35.520 one about ideas ownership and the peculiar institution has changed 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.680 the way we treat concepts. Corporations who are immortal, who 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.080 now have these ideas of intellectual property. They own this stuff, 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.240 so they want to profit from it. They've privatized it. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.960 They've all said, you can consume it, will sell it 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.320 to you, but don't ever think of messing with it. 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.520 Don't think about doing anything with it, because we own 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.040 it's our property. And I'm kind of saying, well, no, 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.640 it's not just your property, because it's inside my head. 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.400 You know, it's in my brain. So I'm gonna I 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.160 think I'm allowed to do things that have been inserted 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.320 into my brain. You know, I don't want to see 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.400 your giant pepsi billboard every time I drive into town, 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.719 but I do, so you know, yes, I'm going to 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:15.839 take some of your pepsi ad and I'm going to 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.680 cut it up and I'm gonna use it in something 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:19.920 that maybe makes fun of you. And in this case, 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:39.600 it was a project negative landid called Dyspepsi. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:44.959 what you're compiling is going to be a positive reflection 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.160 of what Pepsi is all about and the makers of 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.360 their advertising. So I think it's fair to say that 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.680 if that's all the case. Uh yeah, this is part 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.600 of the marketing spin of PEPs of Call. One of 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.240 my favorite pieces by the band involves a surreal heard 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:05.960 radio call in show. This is Pennywise, Joan your next Nie, Sue, 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.160 How can I help? Jim? I really have a problem 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.240 with ampulse buying. I never have money left for anything. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.120 That's a piece called truth and advertising, and that was 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.480 where we were able to take it so that every 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.800 time the talk show host hung up on the caller 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.480 to go to the next caller, it was the same 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:23.800 caller over again and over again because of how we 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.520 were able to edit it together and that was all done. 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:28.920 We've always used to call those edits razor takes, because 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.720 those were done with analog, real to real recuoriers and 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:33.640 we would cut them with a razor blood, you know, 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.640 to rearrange those things. Okay, let's go to line four. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.360 This is Pennywise. I'm Jim Phillips and your name is Bob. Hi, Bob, 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.400 what can I do for you? I get confused by 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.480 all the claims main commercials. This is pennywise line stakes 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.600 you're on and your name is. I think it definitely 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.560 kind of grabs your attention. There's a real rhythm, there's 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.480 a real musicality to the way the voice has been 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.800 is the repeats itself and folds back in on itself. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.720 But but also so it gets that something that actually 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.000 is a real thing, which is about how advertising impacts 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.000 us and how advertisers maybe aren't telling you the truth, 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.920 you know. And I don't think it's didactic. I don't 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:13.800 think it's having handed I don't think it's like we 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.720 are we're wagging wagging our finger at you about the subject. 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.480 But it does kind of get get it out there. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.280 We'll be right back with more of tech stuff. Listens 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:35.520 to Negative Land after these messages, it really hit me 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.840 that what Mark and negative Land are doing is incredibly challenging. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.960 Anyone can grab a dozen or so clips of sound 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.760 and edit them together to make something new, but to 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.760 create something that has a sense of musical rhythm that 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.800 can be entertaining and that can also be a comment 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.720 on our culture is extraordinary. It explains how the group 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.960 can work on a project for years before it's ready 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.199 to be released. Once it is released, that work can 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.360 get a lot of attention. Negative Land is no stranger 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.000 to criticism, controversy, or even legal action. In fact, one 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.760 of their most famous works landed the group in legal 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.720 trouble for several years. But it all started out innocently enough. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.079 A fan at a show of ours handed as a 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.160 cassette and uh at a show that we were printing 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.839 in Portland, Oregon, and it had outtakes of top for 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.360 D d J. Casey Cason having a really bad day 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.040 in the studio. Casey Cason, as you know, just passed 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:35.240 away this summer, and I think the engineer's revenge was 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.280 to get these tapes out to some people in the 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.640 public via cassette. Now, back then, the Internet didn't exist, 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.200 and so this stuff had a very very limited audience 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.160 of just people sharing this stuff. And I think if 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.360 it had come out now, we wouldn't have been inspired 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.560 to make that record that we made, because everyone would 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.600 have had it. But we had something that was kind 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.000 of seemed very precious, you know, and you know, and 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.959 and rare, and it was also you know, Peter Pants 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.840 funny and just so inspiring, and he was trying to 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.840 do a dedication to a family's dead dog, and he 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.120 was trying to introduce a new song by a band 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.240 he got the name of their country of origin incorrect, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.800 but a band who's been around as long as Negative 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.000 Land has You Too. That's the letter You and the 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.080 New World Too. The four Man Band features Adam Clayton 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.320 on bank, Larry Moren on drums, Dave Evan's nickname the 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.760 Edge on if this is both nobody cares. These guys 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.640 are from England and we'll give it. It's a lot 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.600 of wasted name that don't mean diddaly And we ended 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.000 up using doing a kind of a weird mutated cover 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.800 version of a YouTube song. We had Negative Land member 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.160 David Wills the weather Man, do his own dramatic reinterpretation 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.320 of Bono's lyrics. We used the casey caseum stuff. The 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:49.760 song was I still found what I'm looking for and 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.760 kind of at the end when we were deciding how 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.480 to present it, we ended up deciding to call the 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.560 whole thing you Too, by Negative Land, And originally it 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.600 was actually going to be You with a dash between 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.480 the U and the two, because that's actually how the U. 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.040 That's a slight variation on you two's name, which has 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.240 no dash in the you tube is the airplane, the 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.000 spy plane that was shot down, and it's where you 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.800 two stole their name from. In the course of designing 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.920 the whole thing, our graphic designer we were working with 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.200 a guy named Randall hunting Uh. He suggested that we 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.960 could make the the hell what am I making the 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.680 airplane of the YouTube airplane itself, which we were using 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.280 as part of the cover design. What about making that 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.440 the dash? And how about we could make the U 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.320 two really huge and negative Land really small. I think 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.840 he was just kind of joking, you know, like because 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.120 of course you wouldn't really do that, because that would 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.960 be insane, right. But of course when we saw it, 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.560 we said, that's great, genius, you know, yes, that's what 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.800 we're gonna do. This is even better. We're gonna make 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.240 it look like something it isn't. As it turns out, 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.560 this particularly mischievous release would have a long lasting effect 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.160 on the group. It didn't take long for you two's 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.600 management to respond, and it came out and two weeks 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:02.240 after it came out, or I think maybe it was 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.400 less maybe ten days after it came out. You Two's 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.760 record label and their publisher. Uh at the instigation of 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.960 You Two's manager. We only found that out about fifteen 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.360 years later. But yeah, they suit us for copyright infringement, 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.800 trademark infringement. Uh. It has lots of swearing on it, 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.000 courtesy of Casey case So they sued us for defamation 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.520 of character for associating this foul language with the clean 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.160 count image of the band You Two. They sued us 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.960 for failure to get a license to do a cover 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.000 version of a song because we change the lyrics. You 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.200 can do a cover version and just pay a licensing fee, 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.040 but if you change the lyrics, you have to get permission. 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:39.360 And they also suit us for fraud, saying it was 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.880 a get rich quick scheme intended to dupe millions of 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.360 innocent YouTube fans into you know, buying this record so 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:47.520 we could make you know, lots of money. So they 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.720 through everything we could think of at us. We had 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.640 to really look at what we were doing, even more 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.040 deeply than we ever had, you know, and really examine 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.320 if it was worth the fight. You know, do we 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.600 really want to destroy our lives and lose at the 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.520 tiny bit of money we might be making. And we 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.679 you know, we were gonna lose a lot by choosing 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.239 to fight it, but we we really felt like it 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:08.639 was you know, it was it was a fight that 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:10.960 needed to happen because at the time there was nobody 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:15.840 making any smart, thoughtful cultural arguments about this from a 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.080 progressive point of view. It was just lawyers, and it 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.960 was just so it was just all very conservative, you know, 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.560 thinking around money, profit in ownership in ways that just 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.639 were culturally very very smart. And we've been headed this 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.720 amazing opportunity because we've been had sued on behalf of 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.320 the largest rock band on the planet Earth. So we thought, well, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.440 maybe we could use as a platform to talk about 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.680 this stuff. And that turned into an odyssey that took 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:39.520 up the next four or five years of all of 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.280 our lives. I could say literally every day of my 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.800 life for the next four or five years, literally, I 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.440 was dealing with some aspect of it. The FBI got involved, 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.200 there were threats made against Casey. We tricked you Tube's 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.359 guitarist The Edge, into an interview he didn't know we 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.639 were anyway, all kinds of stuff. It's all documented in 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:58.840 a book we put out called Fair Use. The Story 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.080 of the Letter You in the numeral who which actually 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.960 shows you the behind the scenes facts, lawsuits, press releases, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.360 phone calls, transcriptions, everything you're never supposed to see when 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.679 these cases settled out of court is all there in 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.719 the book in short chapters, so it makes good bathroom reading. Ultimately, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.640 the band settled out of court and their album was withdrawn, 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.600 but that was only the beginning of the battle. Negative 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.399 Land only settled because there was literally no way for 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.119 the group to afford to fight the charges in court. 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.080 They wished to argue that their appropriation fell under fair use, 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.600 that they were creating art from appropriation the same way 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.080 that other artists had for years. Andy Warhol's famous works 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.600 were commentaries on consumerism and pop culture. How could that 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.600 instance be okay? But Negative lands work be considered illegal. 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.920 The experience with you two ended up having the opposite 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.919 effect on the band than what was intended. It's been 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.400 endlessly fascinating, and then when we got you know, actually 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.760 sumed for doing it, it politicizes more. It actually made 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.400 us kind of bear down on wanting being more committed 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.880 to doing this work than ever before. And uh, it's 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:09.200 certainly kept it really really interesting. While Negative Land has 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:13.480 always been interested in culture and consumerism. The legal proceedings 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.800 brought to light the complicated matter of copyright and fair use, 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.600 which became a new focus for mark. Copyright is meant 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.520 to protect the owner of an original work of authorship. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.800 In the United States, it's defined as such a work 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:32.720 quote fixed in a tangible medium of expression end quote. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.399 It covers all works, whether published or unpublished. Now, it 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.840 doesn't protect facts ideas methods of operation. Some of those 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.080 can be protected under other means, like trademarks or patents. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.919 As soon as you have your original work in a 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.560 fixed tangible form, it's protected by copyright. That tangible form 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.520 doesn't have to be a piece of paper, it can 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.520 be code. The law provides for protection of works that 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.480 require a machine or device in order for someone to 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.600 see or experience it. Registering a copyright is a way 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.639 of ensuring protection of your work. Technically, your work is 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:13.560 protected even without registration, but registering creates an official legal 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.360 document that establishes your authorship in case you should ever 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.720 have to pursue a claim of infringement against someone else. 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.360 If you were to create an original work but not 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.159 register the copyright, it's possible someone else could steal your 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.960 work and register it under his or her own name, 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.119 making a claim of ownership more complicated. The concept of 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.760 copyright dates all the way back to seventeen ten, and 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.080 it's changed significantly over the years. Yeah, it was like 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:45.119 twelve thirteen, fourteen years the Statute of Queen Anne. And 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.160 whenever I do lectures about this, which I've done quite 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.119 a few, it's very rare that people actually know this, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.879 because it sounds shocking to hear it now, because copyright 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.000 nowadays lasts for the life of the creator. Plus it's 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.720 seventy years seventy two seven three. The Statute of an 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:07.840 establishes copyright lasting fourteen years for new unpublished works, works 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.640 that had already been published, and we're under ownership of 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.920 some party or another, we're granted twenty one years of protection. 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.840 Ever since copyright was established in British law, people and 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:22.240 entities have attempted to expand its protection. According to Mark, 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.080 this trend has become truly destructive, largely due to the 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.200 rise of a particular type of institution, this very strange 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:35.159 creature called the corporation. And we've decided to give corporation 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.800 these rights as if they're human. We give them free 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:39.879 speech rights. What I would argue, has led to the 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.560 total destruction of democracy in this country. But we we 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.240 give them all these the perks and privileges of being 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.719 a human being, none of the responsibilities, none of you know, 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.600 when a corporation does things that lead to the deaths 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.920 of thousands of people, we we don't we don't seem 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.200 to give the corporation the death penalty, unfortunately. But because 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:01.600 corporations are immortal, in fact, they're not like anything human 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:06.080 at all. They from their perspective, understandably they want to 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.800 profit from their property forever. And since we've decided that 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.680 ideas are property, intellectual property, you know, it all sort 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:14.480 of it Also, you can see how this all starts 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.679 to play out in this very bizarre way, um that 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.000