1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: job in Strickland. I'm an executive producer with iHeart Radio 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: and I love all things tech. It is time for 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: a tech Stuff classic episode. This episode, originally published on 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: January two thousand fifteen, is called tech Stuff Listens to 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: Negative Land. Negative Land being a kind of outsider music group, 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: transgressive music group, if you, If you will, also ties 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: into topics that we've talked about recently on tech Stuff, 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: like copyright and fair use. And I hope you enjoy 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: how many time zones there are in the Soviet Junion. 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Power and all that. That's power. We've got so much power. 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. Power, power and power. What you're hearing is 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: the work of a performance group called Negative Land. The 15 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: band creates interesting sounds from accommodation of electronics, musical instruments, 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: and an enormous library of pre recorded audio from sources 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: as diversus political speeches to music numbers to old television 18 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: commercial guest I spoke with Mark Hustler, one of the 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: founding members of Negative Land. Our conversation lasted for more 20 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: than two hours and we talked about topics like art, music, 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: intellectual property, and more. Well, this episode has highlights from 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: that conversation. I really learned a lot. And the first 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: thing I wanted to know was how Mark got interested 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: in this type of art in the first place. I 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: was really into all kinds of music as a teenager, 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: and there was just some kind of record that I 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: wanted to hear that didn't seem to exist. And so 28 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: at some point when I was sixteen or seventeen, you know, 29 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: I said, well, I want to let's make We're gonna 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: make that record, and that's who we did, and it 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: came out when I was still in high school. The 32 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: we in this case was Mark Hustler and Richard Lyons. 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: Others would join Nega of Land over the years, including 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: Don Joyce, who hosts the band's weekly radio show, and 35 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: Ian Allen, who passed away in early The group's membership 36 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: changed many times throughout its existence, and each member contributed 37 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: a unique perspective, and the band has always been about experimentation. 38 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 1: You've got a good beginning list and trial and era. 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: It's just a pend again on breaking the records of 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: the radio. We've been around an extremely long time I've 41 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: actually known the guys in the group for thirty six years. 42 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: Our first record came out of Night and for some 43 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: reason which I don't really quite understand, we all just 44 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: love strange, weird, funny noises and found things and reusing 45 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: stuff in ways they weren't intended to be used. And 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: so our very first recordings were making tape loops, or 47 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: you could cut real to real recording tape and stick 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: one end to the other and they repeat over and 49 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: over again, you know, and echo, and you could stick 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: pieces of metal into with guitar and make the guitar 51 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: string sound all strange. And we were recording things off 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: the TV and radio and our parents, you know, baking 53 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and the sound of the our dog 54 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: barking outside, and all this stuff made its way into 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: our into our recorded work, and it was kind of 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: surreal data koufy collage. We also put in beats and 57 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: sometimes sang little songs, and it had a somewhat pop 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: kind of sensibility to it in a way, in a 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: screwy sort of way, too stupid great or dumb five 60 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: six ideottics. The experiments would evolve into projects, and while 61 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: the tools the band used to create their sounds would change, 62 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: the medium in which they worked would remain sound collage. 63 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: Collage is a medium that I think is one of 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: the easiest art forms in the world, whether it was 65 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: sound or film or visual art, to do something really crappy. 66 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: It's really only easy to do collage and just have 67 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: it be really mediocre. And I but to to to 68 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: really get it to where it's it's it's at a 69 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: level that we think meets that you know, our our standard. 70 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: You know, it requires a lot of work and thinking 71 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: about it. And we've had lots of pieces that get 72 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: to a point, but they're just not there yet, you know, 73 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: and we sit on them for six months or even 74 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: a year later we'll go back. In fact, the band 75 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: might sit on a piece for decades. One piece Negative 76 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: Land recently revisited is a work called Like a Cattle 77 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,559 Speaker 1: Act the Gun by the late Well. I was thinking 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: of a Cadillac Cadillac, got Wreck, Cadillac, Catillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Catillac, Lack, Cadillac, Lack, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac, Lack, Cadillac, 79 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: La Cadillac, Catillac Alan First worked on the piece back 80 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. Before his death, Alan gave his 81 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: blessing to Negative Land to revisit and finish the recording. 82 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: Alan was also instrumental in shaping the band's cultural and 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: social perspectives. Before long, the band was using its quirky 84 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: techniques not just to make interest sounds, but to provide 85 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: commentary on various issues. It just kept being really interesting 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: that you could use collage, you know, to talk about 87 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: stuff in this way that invited the listener to work 88 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: on figuring out what you were getting at into some degree. 89 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: You know, we don't spell everything out, but we try 90 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: to do something where it's both about stuff, but there's 91 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: some thing about it. It's open enough that you're engaged 92 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: and you're drawn in and you're trying to work with it, 93 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: and hopefully that's the place where you know, you get 94 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: something out of it that's interesting and it's and different 95 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: for every person who hears it. And because so many 96 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: of the sounds Negative Land uses in its collage work 97 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: are taken from other sources, you can't just assume that 98 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: what you're hearing and what the band itself thinks are 99 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: necessarily the same thing. While we do sometimes actually write 100 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: song lyrics and do songs. Most of the spoken word 101 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: you hear in our work is appropriated in collage, So 102 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: it's not us saying it. We're not It is not 103 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: the author's voice. You're hearing that. It's what we chose 104 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: to use. Well did we choose to Is it because 105 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: we agree with it? We disagree with it, we like it, 106 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: we hate it. We think it's funny, stupid, smart, sad, creepy, annoying, 107 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, surreal, And usually for negative Land, will the 108 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,119 Speaker 1: things we pick to you is will usually be something 109 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: that will be of many of those things all at 110 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: the same time. Listen, this is not all that shouting, 111 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: all that noise. Ian Allen's involvement would lead to another 112 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: pivotal moment in negative lands development, meeting Don Joyce. Joyce 113 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: is a radio DJ who not only joined Negative Land, 114 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: but also helped create a venue for the group to 115 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: express themselves to a larger audience. It's called over the 116 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: Edge for Negative Land. One of the kind of laboratories 117 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: for us to work on new ideas and try out 118 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: new stuff is our weekly radio show. It's called Over 119 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: the Edge. It's been on, it's still on to this day, 120 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: and it's three hours of audio collage that's always about 121 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: a theme of some sort or another. And Negative Land 122 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: member Don Joyce is the one who has been kind 123 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: of the steward of keeping that flame alive all these years. 124 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: He uses old radio station cart machines. If any of 125 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: you out there are radio makers or listeners are old 126 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: enough to know, he uses old school dead analog technology 127 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: to play dude live cut ups stuff on the air. Yeah, 128 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: we get to try out stuff and occasionally the ideas 129 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: of emerge from that that we think are good enough 130 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: to take out and turn into studio recordings or maybe 131 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: a live show. And for those Negative Land fans who 132 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: want to explore that material, band member Tom Maloney has 133 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: been hard at work transferring files to archive dot org 134 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: so that the thousands of hours of programming will become 135 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: available to anyone with an Internet connection. It's a mind 136 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: blowingly huge amount of work that will be available for free. 137 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: As any artist will tell you, art doesn't exist in 138 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: a vacuum. Art doesn't just reflect the world around us. 139 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: It comments on that world. We see elm of the 140 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: artist's thoughts and feelings within his or her art. And 141 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: while you might think that creating a collage out of 142 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: appropriate material limits and artists ability to comment upon the world, 143 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: you'd be wrong. As Mark explained to me, collage is 144 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: just another artistic medium, not significantly different from any other 145 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: means of artistic expression. Basically, to me, our work is 146 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: no different than somebody lives in a cave ten thousand 147 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: years ago who takes a stick out of the fire 148 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: and uses the burnt end to draw on the cave 149 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: wall what's outside of his cave, which could be buffalo 150 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: or a mammoth, you know. So that's no different than 151 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: me taking a computer, a tape deck, a cassette deck, 152 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: a real tool, chape recorder, a digital capturing device, and 153 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: I'm capturing the world around me that I live in 154 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: the world. It's in my home, the world it's outside 155 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: my door. And that world is not just walls and 156 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: furniture and trees and blue sky and buildings. It's advertisements, 157 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: it's logos, pop songs, it's media. Absolutely everywhere you go 158 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: person needs. That's great, and so negative lands are often 159 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: comments on these facets of life. The way messages are 160 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: communicated to us and how we are expected to react 161 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: to them amusing, And there's Another conversation happening as well, 162 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: one about ideas ownership and the peculiar institution has changed 163 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: the way we treat concepts. Corporations who are immortal, who 164 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: now have these ideas of intellectual property. They own this stuff, 165 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: so they want to profit from it. They've privatized it. 166 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: They've all said, you can consume it, will sell it 167 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: to you, but don't ever think of messing with it. 168 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: Don't think about doing anything with it, because we own 169 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: it's our property. And I'm kind of saying, well, no, 170 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: it's not just your property, because it's inside my head. 171 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's in my brain. So I'm gonna I 172 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: think I'm allowed to do things that have been inserted 173 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: into my brain. You know, I don't want to see 174 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: your giant pepsi billboard every time I drive into town, 175 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: but I do, so you know, yes, I'm going to 176 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: take some of your pepsi ad and I'm going to 177 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: cut it up and I'm gonna use it in something 178 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: that maybe makes fun of you. And in this case, 179 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: it was a project negative landid called Dyspepsi. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, 180 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: what you're compiling is going to be a positive reflection 181 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: of what Pepsi is all about and the makers of 182 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: their advertising. So I think it's fair to say that 183 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: if that's all the case. Uh yeah, this is part 184 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: of the marketing spin of PEPs of Call. One of 185 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: my favorite pieces by the band involves a surreal heard 186 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: radio call in show. This is Pennywise, Joan your next Nie, Sue, 187 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: How can I help? Jim? I really have a problem 188 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: with ampulse buying. I never have money left for anything. 189 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: That's a piece called truth and advertising, and that was 190 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: where we were able to take it so that every 191 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: time the talk show host hung up on the caller 192 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: to go to the next caller, it was the same 193 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: caller over again and over again because of how we 194 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: were able to edit it together and that was all done. 195 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: We've always used to call those edits razor takes, because 196 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: those were done with analog, real to real recuoriers and 197 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: we would cut them with a razor blood, you know, 198 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: to rearrange those things. Okay, let's go to line four. 199 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: This is Pennywise. I'm Jim Phillips and your name is Bob. Hi, Bob, 200 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: what can I do for you? I get confused by 201 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: all the claims main commercials. This is pennywise line stakes 202 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: you're on and your name is. I think it definitely 203 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: kind of grabs your attention. There's a real rhythm, there's 204 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: a real musicality to the way the voice has been 205 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: is the repeats itself and folds back in on itself. 206 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: But but also so it gets that something that actually 207 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: is a real thing, which is about how advertising impacts 208 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: us and how advertisers maybe aren't telling you the truth, 209 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: you know. And I don't think it's didactic. I don't 210 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: think it's having handed I don't think it's like we 211 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: are we're wagging wagging our finger at you about the subject. 212 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: But it does kind of get get it out there. 213 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of tech stuff. Listens 214 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: to Negative Land after these messages, it really hit me 215 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: that what Mark and negative Land are doing is incredibly challenging. 216 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: Anyone can grab a dozen or so clips of sound 217 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: and edit them together to make something new, but to 218 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: create something that has a sense of musical rhythm that 219 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: can be entertaining and that can also be a comment 220 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: on our culture is extraordinary. It explains how the group 221 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: can work on a project for years before it's ready 222 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: to be released. Once it is released, that work can 223 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: get a lot of attention. Negative Land is no stranger 224 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: to criticism, controversy, or even legal action. In fact, one 225 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: of their most famous works landed the group in legal 226 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: trouble for several years. But it all started out innocently enough. 227 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: A fan at a show of ours handed as a 228 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: cassette and uh at a show that we were printing 229 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 1: in Portland, Oregon, and it had outtakes of top for 230 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: D d J. Casey Cason having a really bad day 231 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: in the studio. Casey Cason, as you know, just passed 232 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: away this summer, and I think the engineer's revenge was 233 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: to get these tapes out to some people in the 234 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: public via cassette. Now, back then, the Internet didn't exist, 235 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: and so this stuff had a very very limited audience 236 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: of just people sharing this stuff. And I think if 237 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: it had come out now, we wouldn't have been inspired 238 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: to make that record that we made, because everyone would 239 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: have had it. But we had something that was kind 240 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: of seemed very precious, you know, and you know, and 241 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: and rare, and it was also you know, Peter Pants 242 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: funny and just so inspiring, and he was trying to 243 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: do a dedication to a family's dead dog, and he 244 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: was trying to introduce a new song by a band 245 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: he got the name of their country of origin incorrect, 246 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: but a band who's been around as long as Negative 247 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: Land has You Too. That's the letter You and the 248 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: New World Too. The four Man Band features Adam Clayton 249 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: on bank, Larry Moren on drums, Dave Evan's nickname the 250 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: Edge on if this is both nobody cares. These guys 251 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: are from England and we'll give it. It's a lot 252 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: of wasted name that don't mean diddaly And we ended 253 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: up using doing a kind of a weird mutated cover 254 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: version of a YouTube song. We had Negative Land member 255 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: David Wills the weather Man, do his own dramatic reinterpretation 256 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: of Bono's lyrics. We used the casey caseum stuff. The 257 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: song was I still found what I'm looking for and 258 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: kind of at the end when we were deciding how 259 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: to present it, we ended up deciding to call the 260 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: whole thing you Too, by Negative Land, And originally it 261 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: was actually going to be You with a dash between 262 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: the U and the two, because that's actually how the U. 263 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: That's a slight variation on you two's name, which has 264 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: no dash in the you tube is the airplane, the 265 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: spy plane that was shot down, and it's where you 266 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: two stole their name from. In the course of designing 267 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: the whole thing, our graphic designer we were working with 268 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: a guy named Randall hunting Uh. He suggested that we 269 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: could make the the hell what am I making the 270 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: airplane of the YouTube airplane itself, which we were using 271 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: as part of the cover design. What about making that 272 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: the dash? And how about we could make the U 273 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: two really huge and negative Land really small. I think 274 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: he was just kind of joking, you know, like because 275 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: of course you wouldn't really do that, because that would 276 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: be insane, right. But of course when we saw it, 277 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: we said, that's great, genius, you know, yes, that's what 278 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna do. This is even better. We're gonna make 279 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: it look like something it isn't. As it turns out, 280 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: this particularly mischievous release would have a long lasting effect 281 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: on the group. It didn't take long for you two's 282 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: management to respond, and it came out and two weeks 283 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: after it came out, or I think maybe it was 284 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: less maybe ten days after it came out. You Two's 285 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: record label and their publisher. Uh at the instigation of 286 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: You Two's manager. We only found that out about fifteen 287 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: years later. But yeah, they suit us for copyright infringement, 288 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: trademark infringement. Uh. It has lots of swearing on it, 289 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: courtesy of Casey case So they sued us for defamation 290 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: of character for associating this foul language with the clean 291 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: count image of the band You Two. They sued us 292 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: for failure to get a license to do a cover 293 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: version of a song because we change the lyrics. You 294 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: can do a cover version and just pay a licensing fee, 295 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: but if you change the lyrics, you have to get permission. 296 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: And they also suit us for fraud, saying it was 297 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: a get rich quick scheme intended to dupe millions of 298 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: innocent YouTube fans into you know, buying this record so 299 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: we could make you know, lots of money. So they 300 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: through everything we could think of at us. We had 301 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: to really look at what we were doing, even more 302 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: deeply than we ever had, you know, and really examine 303 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: if it was worth the fight. You know, do we 304 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: really want to destroy our lives and lose at the 305 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: tiny bit of money we might be making. And we 306 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: you know, we were gonna lose a lot by choosing 307 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: to fight it, but we we really felt like it 308 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: was you know, it was it was a fight that 309 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: needed to happen because at the time there was nobody 310 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: making any smart, thoughtful cultural arguments about this from a 311 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: progressive point of view. It was just lawyers, and it 312 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: was just so it was just all very conservative, you know, 313 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: thinking around money, profit in ownership in ways that just 314 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: were culturally very very smart. And we've been headed this 315 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: amazing opportunity because we've been had sued on behalf of 316 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: the largest rock band on the planet Earth. So we thought, well, 317 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: maybe we could use as a platform to talk about 318 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: this stuff. And that turned into an odyssey that took 319 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: up the next four or five years of all of 320 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: our lives. I could say literally every day of my 321 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: life for the next four or five years, literally, I 322 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: was dealing with some aspect of it. The FBI got involved, 323 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: there were threats made against Casey. We tricked you Tube's 324 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: guitarist The Edge, into an interview he didn't know we 325 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: were anyway, all kinds of stuff. It's all documented in 326 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: a book we put out called Fair Use. The Story 327 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: of the Letter You in the numeral who which actually 328 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: shows you the behind the scenes facts, lawsuits, press releases, 329 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: phone calls, transcriptions, everything you're never supposed to see when 330 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: these cases settled out of court is all there in 331 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 1: the book in short chapters, so it makes good bathroom reading. Ultimately, 332 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: the band settled out of court and their album was withdrawn, 333 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: but that was only the beginning of the battle. Negative 334 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: Land only settled because there was literally no way for 335 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: the group to afford to fight the charges in court. 336 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: They wished to argue that their appropriation fell under fair use, 337 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: that they were creating art from appropriation the same way 338 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: that other artists had for years. Andy Warhol's famous works 339 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: were commentaries on consumerism and pop culture. How could that 340 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: instance be okay? But Negative lands work be considered illegal. 341 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: The experience with you two ended up having the opposite 342 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: effect on the band than what was intended. It's been 343 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: endlessly fascinating, and then when we got you know, actually 344 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: sumed for doing it, it politicizes more. It actually made 345 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: us kind of bear down on wanting being more committed 346 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: to doing this work than ever before. And uh, it's 347 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: certainly kept it really really interesting. While Negative Land has 348 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: always been interested in culture and consumerism. The legal proceedings 349 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: brought to light the complicated matter of copyright and fair use, 350 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: which became a new focus for mark. Copyright is meant 351 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: to protect the owner of an original work of authorship. 352 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: In the United States, it's defined as such a work 353 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: quote fixed in a tangible medium of expression end quote. 354 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: It covers all works, whether published or unpublished. Now, it 355 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: doesn't protect facts ideas methods of operation. Some of those 356 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: can be protected under other means, like trademarks or patents. 357 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: As soon as you have your original work in a 358 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: fixed tangible form, it's protected by copyright. That tangible form 359 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a piece of paper, it can 360 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: be code. The law provides for protection of works that 361 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: require a machine or device in order for someone to 362 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: see or experience it. Registering a copyright is a way 363 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: of ensuring protection of your work. Technically, your work is 364 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: protected even without registration, but registering creates an official legal 365 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: document that establishes your authorship in case you should ever 366 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: have to pursue a claim of infringement against someone else. 367 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: If you were to create an original work but not 368 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: register the copyright, it's possible someone else could steal your 369 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: work and register it under his or her own name, 370 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: making a claim of ownership more complicated. The concept of 371 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: copyright dates all the way back to seventeen ten, and 372 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: it's changed significantly over the years. Yeah, it was like 373 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: twelve thirteen, fourteen years the Statute of Queen Anne. And 374 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: whenever I do lectures about this, which I've done quite 375 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: a few, it's very rare that people actually know this, 376 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: because it sounds shocking to hear it now, because copyright 377 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: nowadays lasts for the life of the creator. Plus it's 378 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: seventy years seventy two seven three. The Statute of an 379 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: establishes copyright lasting fourteen years for new unpublished works, works 380 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: that had already been published, and we're under ownership of 381 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: some party or another, we're granted twenty one years of protection. 382 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: Ever since copyright was established in British law, people and 383 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: entities have attempted to expand its protection. According to Mark, 384 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: this trend has become truly destructive, largely due to the 385 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: rise of a particular type of institution, this very strange 386 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: creature called the corporation. And we've decided to give corporation 387 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: these rights as if they're human. We give them free 388 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: speech rights. What I would argue, has led to the 389 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: total destruction of democracy in this country. But we we 390 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: give them all these the perks and privileges of being 391 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 1: a human being, none of the responsibilities, none of you know, 392 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: when a corporation does things that lead to the deaths 393 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: of thousands of people, we we don't we don't seem 394 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: to give the corporation the death penalty, unfortunately. But because 395 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: corporations are immortal, in fact, they're not like anything human 396 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: at all. They from their perspective, understandably they want to 397 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: profit from their property forever. And since we've decided that 398 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: ideas are property, intellectual property, you know, it all sort 399 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: of it Also, you can see how this all starts 400 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: to play out in this very bizarre way, um that 401 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: eventually goes kind of off the rails, you know, at 402 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: this point. And that's kind of what what negative Land 403 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: got drawn into was. Because our work does appropriate things 404 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: and makes this collage and to to talk about the 405 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: culture and the country and the world we live in. 406 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: We found that our work was kind of colliding, you know, 407 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: head first into these these these ideas about copyright, which 408 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: had just become completely crazy, you know, just ridiculous. I 409 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: agree with a lot of what Mark saying. He and 410 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: I both acknowledge that copyright has an important role. People 411 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: who create original works should have some measure of protection 412 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: so that they can receive compensation for their work. A 413 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: world without copyright could be chaotic and unfair, but so 414 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: can a work old with copyright that extends well beyond 415 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: what its creators intended. We'll be back with more of 416 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: tech stuff listens to negative Land in just a moment. 417 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: Remember when I said that copyright protection originally only lasted 418 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: fourteen years for new works. The story has changed significantly 419 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: today in the United States, a new original work last 420 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: the life of the author plus an additional seventy years. 421 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: This has had enormous implications in the publishing, music, and 422 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: artistic spheres. It's a balancing act. And that's what kind 423 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: of has been lost in a lot of the conversation 424 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: about all this is that it's it's kind of treated 425 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: like it's an omnipotent property right of some sort. And 426 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: that's why I was saying that when copyright first began, 427 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: it was an incredibly short period of time. But but 428 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: the this was not some radical idea that would be 429 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: that short. In fact, it was that that was a 430 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: conservative idea, you know, that was that seemed on enough, 431 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, to give you a chance to profit from 432 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: your your creativity. And I should also add that just 433 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: the very idea of taking the word intellectual and property 434 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: and jamming them into each other to make one expression 435 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: is very strange when you think about it, that we've 436 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: decided that ideas are things, you know. It's it's an 437 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: incredibly abstract idea, and it and it only is true 438 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: because we've all just sort of agreed that it's true. 439 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: Though in the case of negative Land, we decided that 440 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: we didn't really like that particular hallucination and we wanted 441 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: to ignore it a lot. This shift towards extending protection 442 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: beyond the life of the creator has had other consequences 443 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: as well. Corporations that own intellectual property go to great 444 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: links to protect that property. If there's a prospect of 445 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: generating revenue off of an original work, it's worth investigating 446 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: how to protect it. This leads to ideas like digital 447 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: rights management, which is intended to provide protection to corporations, 448 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: but often has the unintended consequence of negatively impacting the 449 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: honest consumer more than any pirate. As Mark explains this 450 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: is a problem that the industry itself is painfully aware 451 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: of and yet isn't sure how to change. I was 452 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: actually at a conference on copyright law in Washington, d C. 453 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: And I remember speaking to somebody who was from the 454 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: r I double A that I said, this is what 455 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: do you guys talk about behind closed doors? You know, 456 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: isn't it kind of bizarre that you're basically taking legal 457 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: action against your customers? I mean, you don't you you 458 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: realize that every twelve fourteen year old kid growing up 459 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: basically hates you, you you know, just knows the cat is 460 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: out of the bag about how absolutely ugly your business 461 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: is and how you take advantage of artists, etcetera, etcetera. 462 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: He kind of sheepishly kind of said, well, yeah, we 463 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: kind of look at it like chemotherapy, and I just 464 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: hope that that the patient doesn't completely die, you know, 465 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: during given the treatment that we're giving it. You know. 466 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: But yes, we're perfectly aware that this just comes off 467 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: really horribly, you know, but we don't know what else 468 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: to do. As Mark points out, the concepts of ownership 469 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: are deeply ingrained in culture and economic models. That's not 470 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: to say ownership is bad. But it does complicate matters, 471 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: particularly when we extend the concept of ownership to institutions 472 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: that could potentially live forever. But there are limits to copyright, 473 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: and not just in how long protection lasts. You don't 474 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: have to wait until the work goes into public domain 475 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: before you can talk about it in some other format. 476 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,479 Speaker 1: For example. This brings up the concept of fair use. Well, 477 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: here's an example. Anyone listening, I'm sure you've read a 478 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: review of a book or seen a review of a 479 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: movie on your television or digital device. And that's where 480 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: fair use comes into play. When you review that, you 481 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: don't have to get permission to use a clip of 482 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,959 Speaker 1: the film, You don't have to get permission to excerpt 483 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: from the book. That's considered fair use. You were using 484 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: someone else's intellectual property within your intellectual property to talk 485 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: about that other intellectual property now, and so fair use 486 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: was trying to acknowledge that, and fairious had four factors 487 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: to it. But the first one, I think was you know, 488 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: are you are you using any bit of someone else's 489 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: intellctual property? The next one was you know how much 490 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: of it are you using? And in what way are 491 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: you are? Are you not transforming it in some way 492 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: or changing it, And what is the context in which 493 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: it is reappearing. Is it in a different medium, is 494 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: it in a different market? Could there be some confusion 495 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: between what you've done and the original in some way. 496 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: So there's these different factors that are supposed to be 497 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: weighed when the courts are looking at these things. And 498 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: for many, many years, the courts didn't look at all 499 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: four factors. They just looked at the first one, did 500 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: you use some of it? Well, if you did, then 501 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: you're a thief and you lose, you know, and you're 502 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, you're you're you're the bad guy here. And 503 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: for many, many years, that's kind of how the courts 504 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: look at things, and that's why there's a lot of 505 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: really bad legal decisions that have been made over the years. 506 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: Um So the laws haven't changed, you know. Unfortunately, we 507 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: haven't seen any any smart, progressive legal changes to intellectual 508 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: property law. There haven't been any cases that have gone 509 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: through the court systems to really do that in a 510 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: long long time, and this is a big problem. Fair 511 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: use is something that ends up being decided in a 512 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: court on a case by case basis. Fair use is 513 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: a defense there's no codified set of rules that lets 514 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: you create a checklist to make sure you won't be sued. 515 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: You could create a work that sites of pre existing 516 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: peace owned by someone else and follow all the rules 517 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: and still get sued. You might eventually win that court case, 518 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: but it's going to cost you just to be involved. 519 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: Some entities, like YouTube respond to copyright infringement notices by 520 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: immediately taking down the infringing material. Sometimes this happens automatically, 521 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: and the content owner has to flip a virtual switch 522 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: to allow the other video to go back up online. 523 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: So if you create a video series in which you 524 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: critique films or television or some other form of media, 525 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: you could run into the issue of having your work 526 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: taken down. Even if you're following the rules. You could 527 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: get that video restored if it meets fair use criteria, 528 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: but it takes a lot of effort. If all original 529 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: works were truly original, perhaps I would see this entire 530 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: system as being tough but fair. But the truth is 531 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: no work is truly original. Creators have influences. Art doesn't 532 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: bloom spontaneously in a vacuum. The real question is to 533 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: what extent does a work stand up on its own 534 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: versus relying upon the pre existing work that influenced it. 535 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: That's not an easy or an expensive question to answer. 536 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: This is deprogramming the universal media netted well as for 537 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: Negative Land, they released a new album them late in 538 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen called It's All in Your Head. It's 539 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: a college piece that examines religious beliefs, not necessarily specific beliefs, 540 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: but why we believe things in the first place. You're 541 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: listening to It's All in your Head FM monotheism but 542 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: in stereo. The project was born of discussions within Negative 543 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: Land itself. None of us had ever talked to each 544 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: other about our religious beliefs. I mean, I've known these guys, 545 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: some of them since i was a teenager, and we 546 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: had to work all that out because in fact, we 547 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: don't all agree. You know, there's atheists, there's a NaSTA, 548 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's different perspectives on this, and we 549 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: had to be sure that that was all reflection in 550 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: the work as well. Um, So that that was another 551 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,479 Speaker 1: really interesting kind of behind the scenes part of creating 552 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: the whole thing. So we would have huge debates over 553 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: single words that we're being used in it. You know, 554 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: one sentence that what is it going to be there, 555 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: We're gonna cut it out, you know, typical, just super 556 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: c D negative planned, you know, obsesso, you know, microscopic 557 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: thinking that we we do the poetry, we reached to 558 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: arts to try to begin to articulate what those things are. 559 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: And I think that we have to acknowledge that we're 560 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: in this realm when we begin to talk about this, 561 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: and if we take the symbols and don't acknowledge that 562 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: they're symbols, then we get into this triple. The album 563 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: is organized on a pair of CDs referred to as acts. 564 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: If you buy the physical album, your packaging is a 565 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: King James version of the Bible. There was a limited 566 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: edition version packaged and copies of the Kuran, but it 567 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: has since sold out. While the album takes a critical 568 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: look at belief systems, it also avoids passing judgment. Sections 569 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: of the album explore ideas such as how the brain 570 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: processes information to how cultures define and interpret beliefs. Mark 571 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 1: explains why the group chose to package the album inside 572 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: a Bible, but having it inside of a Bible framed 573 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: it in this way that I personally just love, you know, 574 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: and I think all of us just love the idea 575 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: that you're using the Bible as a repurposed found object, 576 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: and also anyway that the Bible is the liner notes 577 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, to the record. I've listened to the album 578 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: in full and found it provocative. There were times that 579 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: it made me think, in times when I had a 580 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: very strong emotional reaction to what was going on in 581 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: the album. It's the sort of reaction I imagine many 582 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: artists hope for when they create their works, and it 583 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: marked a very different experience to listening to audio entertainment 584 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: than what I've become used to. It's rare these days 585 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: that I'll sit down to listen to an album in full. 586 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: I'm more likely to listen to my entire music collection 587 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: on shuffle or even a larger collection streaming online following 588 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: some cryptic algorithm that supposedly anticipates what I'll want to 589 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,719 Speaker 1: hear next. But that's not how Negative Land intends you 590 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: to listen to their work. I actually when I give 591 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: people copies of our of our music, and I say, 592 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, I know it's a lot to ask in 593 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: this day and age, but wait until I don't care 594 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: if it's a year from now, Wait until you have 595 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: an actual hour of your toy to do nothing else 596 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: except just listen to this thing from beginning to end. 597 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: And um, and I think you might enjoy it, I said, 598 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: if you just have it on in the background or 599 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: just listen to separate tracks, I said, it won't even 600 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: make sense. It will probably even just be annoying. And 601 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: so It's All in your Head is like that. It's 602 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: too complete. It's it's one complete work. It's got two 603 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: acts to it, but it's very much designed to be 604 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: listened to in its entirety. We had a huge debate 605 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: about whether or not to put track points in it 606 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: for for downloading and for CDs, because it kind of 607 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: suggests or encourages people to put it into random shuffle play. 608 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: But we also don't like the idea of trying to 609 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: control someone's experience that much and just have to be 610 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: one long track. Plus I know people will just break 611 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: it up into tracks anyway. Negative Lands It's All on 612 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: Your Head is available for purchase from their website negative 613 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: land dot com. That's n e g A T I 614 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: v l A n d dot com that wraps up 615 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: the episode. Tech Stuff listens to negative Land. It was 616 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: a really cool experience to get to talk to someone 617 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: and they're a pro coach to making sort of transgressive 618 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: music that has a real point of view. It was 619 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: something that I don't get to do that often. And 620 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: big thanks to Noel Brown of you know, ridiculous history 621 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: and stuff they don't want you to know fame because 622 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: he's the guy who got me in touch with negative 623 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: land in the first place. So big thanks to him. 624 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: And that wraps up this episode. If you have suggestions 625 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: for topics I should cover in future episodes, please reach 626 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: out to me. Do so on Twitter. The handle for 627 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: the show is tech Stuff hs W and I'll talk 628 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: to you again really soon. Tex Stuff is an I 629 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 630 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 631 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.