Speaker 1: Pushkin Hay Slight Changers. This is part one of two
Speaker 1: conversations I've had with writer Kelsey Snow. It was recorded
Speaker 1: in late September of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: I was twenty one and I was in love. And
Speaker 2: think about how you felt when you were twenty one. Right,
Speaker 2: there's nothing stopping you. You feel invincible. You don't think
Speaker 2: anything but good things are going to happen to you.
Speaker 1: When Kelsey first met Chris, she fell hard. They soon
Speaker 1: fell in love, got married, and had two kids. But
Speaker 1: then Chris received a devastating diagnosis.
Speaker 2: You have to learn to live while the person you
Speaker 2: love is dying, and nobody wants to believe that that
Speaker 2: could happen to them.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, the complex grief of being a caregiver,
Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Kelsey's husband, Chris Now,
Speaker 1: was thirty seven years old when he was diagnosed with ALS,
Speaker 1: a progressive neurodegenerative disease. ALS can leave people unable to move, talk, eat,
Speaker 1: and breathe on their own, and it currently has no cure.
Speaker 1: Kelsey would later become Chris's full time caregiver. Kelsey has
Speaker 1: chronicled her family's experience in a podcast she hosts called
Speaker 1: Sorry I'm Sad. That's how I first came across her story,
Speaker 1: and I was drawn to her warmth and her ins.
Speaker 1: I reached out to Kelsey over Instagram and over the
Speaker 1: years we struck up a friendship. I'm honored that she
Speaker 1: was willing to share her story with all of us.
Speaker 1: Kelsey first met Chris when she started her internship in
Speaker 1: the sports department at the Boston Globe. Chris was the
Speaker 1: Red Sox beat writer, and he would offer her rides
Speaker 1: to Fenway, the Red Sox ballpark.
Speaker 2: He'd text me if I was working there that day,
Speaker 2: and he'd say, do you want to ride? And my
Speaker 2: friend Adam said, snow never gives me a ride to Fenway.
Speaker 2: That's what I thought, Oh, yeah, maybe he likes me.
Speaker 2: He invited me to go to the gym after we'd
Speaker 2: been at Fenway, and then we went and got like
Speaker 2: smoothies or something, and at one point we were in
Speaker 2: his apartment and he said, well, I like, you know whatever,
Speaker 2: you I said, what, And so then of course I
Speaker 2: decided i'd like to marry him. I think I probably
Speaker 2: knew at that point.
Speaker 1: About a month into getting to know Chris, he mentioned
Speaker 1: to you that he had a family history of Alaska.
Speaker 1: Tell me how that conversation played out.
Speaker 2: He had had one uncle at that point who had
Speaker 2: died of ALS a couple years before I met him.
Speaker 2: Ten to fifteen percent of ALS is genetic, the rest
Speaker 2: of it is sporadic. And I remember him telling me
Speaker 2: that and saying that at that point, I think his
Speaker 2: dad had had the genetic tests, and his dad knew
Speaker 2: that he had the genetic mutation. And I just think
Speaker 2: I was twenty one and I was in love, and
Speaker 2: I do think I misunderstood a little bit the implications
Speaker 2: of having the genetic mutation. It's a fifty to fifty chance,
Speaker 2: it's a coin flip whether it has passed on to
Speaker 2: you from your parent. But if you have the genetic mutation,
Speaker 2: almost one hundred percent chance interesting that you will have
Speaker 2: ALUs become symptomatic at some point in your life. That's
Speaker 2: the part I didn't really understand. I don't know if
Speaker 2: he really understood it at that point either. Think about
Speaker 2: how you felt when you were twenty one, right there's
Speaker 2: nothing stopping you. You feel invincible. You don't think anything but
Speaker 2: good things are going to happen to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's move forward in time to twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: You and Chris are married, You have two young children.
Speaker 1: He's thirty seven, you're thirty five. What were the first
Speaker 1: symptoms that he noticed?
Speaker 2: He started to have some like intermittent numbness in two
Speaker 2: fingers on his right hand.
Speaker 3: He's right handed, and.
Speaker 2: We sort of thought, well, that's not really how this
Speaker 2: disease presents. ALS is a process of elimination diagnosis. There's
Speaker 2: no test for it, and the doctors thought it was
Speaker 2: not ALS. They thought he had a pinched ulner nerve
Speaker 2: from just like the positioning of his arms and typing
Speaker 2: and working on his computer and things like that. We
Speaker 2: leaned very hard into that, hope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did that look like? The leaning and.
Speaker 2: Heart It looked like trying to match up every symptom
Speaker 2: with this. It looked like avoidant googling as well, like
Speaker 2: there were certain things I wouldn't google. I would never
Speaker 2: google together the words pinched all their nerve and ALS
Speaker 2: because I didn't want to know whether it was a
Speaker 2: common sort of mistake misdiagnosis. Then I finally did that
Speaker 2: Google search, and the first study that popped up was
Speaker 2: a thirty something year old woman who doctors thought had
Speaker 2: pinched all their nerve and ultimately they realized it was ALS.
Speaker 2: And the study it was two paragraphs. You know, patient
Speaker 2: died shortly after Oh gosh. And so there are a
Speaker 2: couple of tests that you can do that are really
Speaker 2: hallmarks for this disease. And one is a test where
Speaker 2: they put needles into your muscles and they gauge the
Speaker 2: way your nerves are interacting with your muscles. And this
Speaker 2: doctor just did test and didn't say a word, and
Speaker 2: afterward finished and said, I think you have some form
Speaker 2: of motor neuron disease. And then your world is just
Speaker 2: poof wow gone. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you ended up flying to Miami to get an
Speaker 1: expert opinion, and the doctor there says it is, in
Speaker 1: fact the very early stages of ALS. It's fatal, it's
Speaker 1: fast moving, and it's the same type of ALS that
Speaker 1: runs in Chris's family, right. It actually had killed four
Speaker 1: of Chris's family members. I mean, what did it feel
Speaker 1: like to hear that news.
Speaker 3: Stick to my stomach?
Speaker 2: And then you have to figure out how to make
Speaker 2: life possible still when you know, we thought that Chris
Speaker 2: was going to die and die quickly, and our kids
Speaker 2: were so.
Speaker 3: Little, and how do you tell them that?
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was very that was very hard, and
Speaker 2: I think you I felt like people don't want to
Speaker 2: believe you, Like there's not a way out of this disease.
Speaker 3: There's not.
Speaker 2: There's not a treatment for this, right, And so in
Speaker 2: my mind, I thought, you know, I kind of have
Speaker 2: to convince people this is not gonna especially my family.
Speaker 2: You know, my mom, she's scared that I'm gonna She's like, no,
Speaker 2: that can't be right, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's no, it's right.
Speaker 1: The doctors told you at that point that Chris's life
Speaker 1: expectancy was somewhere between six and eighteen months. That there
Speaker 1: was a bit of good news in there, which is
Speaker 1: the doctor also said there was a new clinical trial
Speaker 1: that Chris might be eligible to join. Can you tell
Speaker 1: me more about that.
Speaker 2: That is not a typical situation for an als patient.
Speaker 2: Clinical trials are very hard for people to find, and
Speaker 2: oftentimes it's taken them so long to be diagnosed that
Speaker 2: they fail the screening because maybe their breathing is already
Speaker 2: too poor or something like that. So I always say like,
Speaker 2: we won the shit luck lottery. And we left Miami thinking,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe Chris will be the first person to
Speaker 2: survive this disease.
Speaker 1: So how did Chris end up responding to the clinical trial?
Speaker 2: So Chris started in the clinical trial of July of
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, and so we lived in that little bubble
Speaker 2: for nine months where he really didn't have any progression
Speaker 2: at all, and we kind of moved along in that
Speaker 2: space until April. It's that still sledding season in Canada.
Speaker 2: So we were out snow sledding and our daughter had,
Speaker 2: I don't know, fallen or something. She had a bunch
Speaker 2: of snow in her helmet and I wanted to take
Speaker 2: a picture of them, and I said, he smiled, and
Speaker 2: I had my phone out and I took the picture
Speaker 2: and I looked at it and I was like, you're
Speaker 2: making a weird face to Chris. I said, you're making
Speaker 2: a weird face. Let's take another one. So I did
Speaker 2: it again and I said, you're still making a weird face.
Speaker 2: And then I said one more. I took it again
Speaker 2: and I went, oh shit, and yeah, I just had
Speaker 2: this little droop on one side of his smile, and
Speaker 2: that was like being diagnosed all over again, because we
Speaker 2: thought maybe we would just stay the way we were.
Speaker 1: When did you tell Chris that? Or did you tell
Speaker 1: Chris that day? Because you have this information you were
Speaker 1: carrying in your brain taking this photo, I'm presuming you
Speaker 1: didn't share that in front of your fan, like your
Speaker 1: kids and him in that moment.
Speaker 2: I think it was more of like we looked at
Speaker 2: each other, like I show the photo, and we just
Speaker 2: sort of looked at each other and knew okay, and
Speaker 2: we walked home then pulled the kids on the sled
Speaker 2: with this like, you know, horrible feeling of dread. And
Speaker 2: so then it was just it was pretty quick the
Speaker 2: loss of his smile. And Chris had such a good smile,
Speaker 2: and everybody would comment on Chris's smile, everybody. I mean,
Speaker 2: he was little, his parents called him guy Smiley like
Speaker 2: he was not only did he have a beautiful smile,
Speaker 2: but he was always smiling. And you know, always see
Speaker 2: he works in professional sports, so in a team picture,
Speaker 2: while these guys were very serious, and Chris was always
Speaker 2: you know, huge white teeth, big smile, showing happy, just
Speaker 2: a happy guy, positive, optimistic, and whether he remained those
Speaker 2: things or not, it didn't come across that way because
Speaker 2: now he'd had no facial expressions. I mean, not only
Speaker 2: could he not smile, he all of his facial muscles
Speaker 2: atrophied pretty much completely. He can't blink. He can open
Speaker 2: his eyes, but he can't close them all the way.
Speaker 2: He can't raise his eyebrows, he can't make facial expressions
Speaker 2: at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you think about smiling in the context of
Speaker 1: everything else, als can rob a persona that can seem trivial.
Speaker 1: But I know from reading your work and listening to
Speaker 1: interviews with you, this was a massively painful loss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very hard, whether you want to believe it
Speaker 2: or not. You often end up assuming the worst in
Speaker 2: that person's mood. And I'm an adult and I have
Speaker 2: a hard time with that. So then you know that
Speaker 2: is even more difficult.
Speaker 3: For our kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah, meaning you assume that Chris is in a bad
Speaker 1: mood when he might very well not be. He's just
Speaker 1: not able to show you his joy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or are you tired or do you feel off today?
Speaker 2: Because he can't show me a different feeling and no,
Speaker 2: his smile, I don't know how you can rank like
Speaker 2: the hard parts of this, but.
Speaker 3: I think a lot. I just wish you could still smile.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. A few months after the sledding photo, Chris
Speaker 1: told Kelsey he was experiencing a new symptom.
Speaker 2: He told me that he had noticed that he sometimes
Speaker 2: had to swallow twice. It's called double swallowing, which is
Speaker 2: a very common first symptom that an als patient is
Speaker 2: losing their ability to swallow or having progression, and they're
Speaker 2: swallowing muscles. So he's losing his smile. He's losing his
Speaker 2: ability to swallow. That fall of twenty twenty was incredibly
Speaker 2: hard for our family. We had some choking things. It
Speaker 2: was quite traumatic for our kids. For me, they got
Speaker 2: to the point where every single day we were taking
Speaker 2: something off the list of foods that he could eat.
Speaker 3: He was losing weight. He was really.
Speaker 2: Spending six hours a day trying to consume enough food
Speaker 2: to not lose weight. And in late November of that
Speaker 2: year he got a feeding tube, which was revolutionary for us,
Speaker 2: and he did very well with the feeding tube. Pe
Speaker 2: gained a bunch of weight back. It was going really well,
Speaker 2: and then he started to reflux stomach contents and then
Speaker 2: aspirate it. So an aspiration event is basically anytime you say, oh,
Speaker 2: that went down the wrong way, you aspirated. So when
Speaker 2: you're swallowing, muscles weaken, you're more likely to get things
Speaker 2: in your lungs, whether it's water or food, And anytime
Speaker 2: you get something in your lungs, there's a risk of
Speaker 2: you developing an ammonia.
Speaker 3: And over a.
Speaker 2: Period of thirteen months, he was in the hospital eight
Speaker 2: times with aspiration events and that got very, very scary
Speaker 2: for us. It spiraled pretty quickly to the point where
Speaker 2: he was admitted to the ICU. He ended up on
Speaker 2: a ventilator two times, and he had a bacterial.
Speaker 3: Pneumonia, a viral pneumonia.
Speaker 2: Influenza A, and a staff infection. He was in the
Speaker 2: ICU for two weeks. And when he went into the ICU,
Speaker 2: he could drive, he could go to work by himself,
Speaker 2: he could do everything he needed to do. And when
Speaker 2: he got out of the ICU, he went from being
Speaker 2: I would say ninety percent independent before to one hundred
Speaker 2: percent dependent on me after the ICU, and that never changed.
Speaker 2: He can type with two fingers on his left hand,
Speaker 2: and that's how he works. He still works full time,
Speaker 2: but it went from him doing almost everything by himself
Speaker 2: to any single thing you do in a day, zipping
Speaker 2: up your hoodie, going to the washroom, washing your hair
Speaker 2: or your body in the shower, arranging your blankets in bed,
Speaker 2: you name it, I do it for him.
Speaker 1: You know, you were already in the mode of caregiving,
Speaker 1: obviously raising two young kids when this all started. And
Speaker 1: what was it like to take on this new identity
Speaker 1: of caregiver for your young spouse?
Speaker 3: Yeah, in his early forties. Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember having conversations with my friend Sondra because her
Speaker 2: husband was more progressed than Chris, and I remember her
Speaker 2: talking about caregiving.
Speaker 3: In a way that felt like, I hope that's not true.
Speaker 2: I hope I hope that I don't find it as
Speaker 2: awful as she's finding it.
Speaker 3: But it it is. It is awful. It's horrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the right word caregiving.
Speaker 1: I would find it completely excruciatingly horrible.
Speaker 3: Okay, for what it's worth, it is.
Speaker 1: You don't want to say that because it's your person,
Speaker 1: but it's okay to say that.
Speaker 3: Kelsey. Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 2: You can't be a wife and a caregiver at the
Speaker 2: same time. So they just this person just starts to
Speaker 2: be a patient for you, you know, in.
Speaker 3: The real, true sense of like being totally open about this.
Speaker 2: You start to like dreave coming home because you know
Speaker 2: they're going to ask you for all the things they've
Speaker 2: been waiting to have done, you know, and they're not.
Speaker 2: It's not like they're asking you for extra things, but
Speaker 2: they need help with everything. And we don't have any
Speaker 2: family here, so I have, you know, I have some
Speaker 2: wonderful friends, but it's not we know, that's not the
Speaker 2: same thing as family. Our son just turned twelve, our
Speaker 2: daughter turns nine at the end of this month. They're
Speaker 2: very busy. I'm the only driver in my house. I
Speaker 2: am trying to get you know, dinner ready, which I'd
Speaker 2: hardly ever cook anymore. It's so consuming, it is so draining,
Speaker 2: and a huge part of it is feeling like nobody
Speaker 2: is taking care of you, and there's all sorts of
Speaker 2: complicated emotions involved in it. You can't say to somebody,
Speaker 2: this is going to get better, because what does that
Speaker 2: mean if my responsibility is as a caregiver giveitter.
Speaker 3: That's because my.
Speaker 2: Husband has died, so caregiving is very hard. It's hard
Speaker 2: on everybody, and I think that a lot of things
Speaker 2: can be true. At the same time, I remember before
Speaker 2: I really was actually being a caregiver for Chris, saying
Speaker 2: like it's an honor to care for Chris. And I've
Speaker 2: thought about that a lot, sort of like, oh, you're
Speaker 2: fucking idiot, Kelsey, you know, to say that out loud
Speaker 2: because you didn't get it.
Speaker 3: And at the same time, it is.
Speaker 1: You know, you've written about feeling resentment as a caregiver,
Speaker 1: and yeah, just talk to me about that feeling. I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you engage with it.
Speaker 2: I'm not jealous of Chris, obviously, but I'm jealous maybe
Speaker 2: of the fact that he has somebody who cares for
Speaker 2: him like I do. So I do have resentment, but
Speaker 2: you know, it's probably that I'm the only parent. It's
Speaker 2: that I'm I'm just the one who everything falls on.
Speaker 2: If the load of laundry needs to get done, if
Speaker 2: the toilet is clogged, if the lawn needs to be mowed,
Speaker 2: if the dishes are in the saink if whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Every single thing is on me, and oftentimes that also
Speaker 2: looks like the emotional labor of what's going on for
Speaker 2: my kids and their mental health, because this is not
Speaker 2: an easy thing for them either.
Speaker 3: You know, we.
Speaker 2: Feel very confident that Chris is going to live for
Speaker 2: a long time still, but they have a dad who
Speaker 2: can't play catch with them. They have a dad who
Speaker 2: can't coach their sports teams. They have a different dad,
Speaker 2: you know, a dad who is in the hospital a
Speaker 2: lot and misses their sports games because the rink is
Speaker 2: too cold and that's hard on his body or whatever
Speaker 2: it is. And so I feel the weight of that
Speaker 2: a lot. I had hit a very low point, probably
Speaker 2: my lowest point in the spring. I went into my
Speaker 2: therapist and I said, I'm just having a really hard
Speaker 2: time managing my stress. And I started to describe all
Speaker 2: all of these things to her that I was feeling,
Speaker 2: and she looked at me and she said, Kelsey, that's
Speaker 2: not stress anxiety, And she said, maybe you want to
Speaker 2: consider trying medication. And so in April I started taking
Speaker 2: Zoloft and did in the summer hire a caregiver who
Speaker 2: started in August, and that's been life changing. I left
Speaker 2: home one day and I came back and I don't
Speaker 2: have so many hours that I hadn't seen christ and
Speaker 2: also I hadn't been on call, because there's two different
Speaker 2: things with caregiving. When you're actively doing it and knowing
Speaker 2: that you're the one who has to do it at
Speaker 2: a moment's notice, both of the things are exhausting. And
Speaker 2: I walked in the door and I realized I had
Speaker 2: missed him and I hadn't missed him for months because
Speaker 2: I hadn't been a position too, because normally I'd walk
Speaker 2: in the door and feel dread. Now I've been gone,
Speaker 2: and now I'm going to have to do all of
Speaker 2: these things. But I walked in and our caregiver was
Speaker 2: with him. They were doing the things, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's right, you're my husband. And medication was the root
Speaker 2: of all of that, because the medication pulled me out
Speaker 2: of that sort of permanent fight or flight that I
Speaker 2: was in, and that was what allowed me to troubleshoot
Speaker 2: the things that were going on and say what else
Speaker 2: can I do here? Because I wasn't constantly, you know,
Speaker 2: in that anxiety fueled frenzy.
Speaker 1: You know, it strikes me that because the kind of
Speaker 1: grief you're facing isn't sudden, like what might accompany the
Speaker 1: death of a loved one, but instead it's the gradual
Speaker 1: loss of the Chris that you once knew that. There
Speaker 1: may be unique challenges associated with dealing with the situation
Speaker 1: like this in terms of the way that you process grief,
Speaker 1: the way that those around you process grief, And I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if you can reflect a bit on what it's
Speaker 1: like to handle that kind of grief situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was messaging with a young mom in Ontario who
Speaker 2: whose husband has als and she has a toddler, a
Speaker 2: little girl, and we were talking about how we feel
Speaker 2: like grief misfits because we aren't widows, but we aren't
Speaker 2: like our friends, and it's this sort of weird middle space.
Speaker 3: I did a podcast episode with.
Speaker 2: A mom in my neighborhood who lived for about six
Speaker 2: years with metastatic breast cancer, and I remember her saying
Speaker 2: that the longer she lived, the more she felt like
Speaker 2: people would see her and be like, you're not dead yet.
Speaker 2: And it is very hard for people to look at
Speaker 2: a disease like this. They don't want to see prolonged suffering.
Speaker 2: They don't want to see that. You might have to
Speaker 2: learn how to live. You have to learn to live
Speaker 2: while the person you love is dying, and nobody wants
Speaker 2: to be that could happen to them, And so it
Speaker 2: is a very weird space for grief. And I feel
Speaker 2: like there are two sides to it. One is that
Speaker 2: you don't want people to forget about you, that you're
Speaker 2: still here and you're still it's that you're on this
Speaker 2: hard road and that you don't want people to like
Speaker 2: look at you with sad eyes all the time. That's
Speaker 2: a hard thing for people to figure out how to
Speaker 2: be because it's sort of a narrow path to walk.
Speaker 1: I was wondering, you know, as you reflect back over
Speaker 1: the last four years, and like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: you kind of one the bad luck lottery in terms
Speaker 1: of having these four years of Chris. What has this
Speaker 1: experience taught you about yourself and how you navigate uncertainty,
Speaker 1: how you navigate change.
Speaker 2: I never thought I'd be the kind of person who
Speaker 2: would manage well in a crisis. You know, how you
Speaker 2: think about something going wrong and you say, like that
Speaker 2: person steps up and they can handle it, and the
Speaker 2: other people are like frozen or retreat. I thought I
Speaker 2: would be a frozen person, and.
Speaker 3: I am not, and.
Speaker 2: I think I really spent a lot of years not
Speaker 2: giving myself enough credit. Chris has always been my barometer,
Speaker 2: and I've known him for so long. If he says
Speaker 2: it's going to be okay, okay, it'll be okay, and
Speaker 2: I could lean on him for that. And then when
Speaker 2: he was diagnosed, I remember having a very vivid realization
Speaker 2: that I have to do that now for him. I
Speaker 2: have to be the one in my house to say,
Speaker 2: we're going to be okay. This is hard, this hurts,
Speaker 2: and we're going to be okay. We'll figure out a
Speaker 2: way through it whatever it looks like. And I'm I
Speaker 2: think I'm pretty good at it. And while being a
Speaker 2: caregiver is incredibly hard, I will forever be so proud
Speaker 2: of myself for the way that I've cared for my husband.
Speaker 2: And we'll continue too, and that we always keep trying
Speaker 2: to be better versions of ourselves, even in the middle
Speaker 2: of what feels often like an impossible circumstance, We're still
Speaker 2: always striving to do better with what we have.
Speaker 3: We don't give up, and we don't.
Speaker 2: Cower, and we put our shoulders back and we go
Speaker 2: through it.
Speaker 1: Two days after I recorded this, conversation with Kelsey. Chris
Speaker 1: was napping at home and never woke up. Eight months later,
Speaker 1: Kelsey let me know that she wanted to share what
Speaker 1: her grief has looked like since then. That's our next episode.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to Kelsey for being willing to share,
Speaker 1: and I think we have so much to learn from her.
Speaker 1: Also a quick note, I've already mentioned that Kelsey and
Speaker 1: I are friends, and for the sake of openness, I
Speaker 1: wanted to share with listeners that in the immediate aftermath
Speaker 1: of Chris's death, I started an online fundraiser for her family.
Speaker 1: If you know someone who's a caregiver and would find
Speaker 1: this conversation helpful, we on the Slight Change team would
Speaker 1: be grateful if you could share this episode with them.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change
Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our senior producer Trisha Bobida, and our engineer
Speaker 1: Eric o'huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and
Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of
Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big
Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there and of course a very special
Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a slight change
Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you
Speaker 1: next week.