1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: Just a few blocks from our studio here in Washington 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: is another series of meetings that the President is sure 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: to comment on. The FLMC, kicking off its two day 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 2: policy session, expected to hold interest rates steady tomorrow, even 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 2: in the face of growing pressure President Trump is putting 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: onto the Fed, particularly the Fed's chair Jerome Powell. And 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: joining us live here on Balance of Power on Bloomberg 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: TV and Radio. On that and much more, is Democratic 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 2: Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, the ranking member of the 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: Senate Banking Committee. Senator, welcome back. We appreciate you joining 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 2: us as we look ahead to the decision tomorrow. Knowing 13 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: the next opportunity the Fed would have to cut rates 14 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 2: is in September. What would the economic consequence be if 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 2: they wait that long? 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: Well, look, I. 17 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 3: Want to see interest rates come down, because when interest 18 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 3: rates stay high, families pay more on their credit cards, 19 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: they pay more on their car loans, Mortgage rates stay higher, 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: and that's a problem. Is exactly one person who is 21 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 3: responsible for keeping those interest rates high, and that's Donald Trump. 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: Jerome Powell said last month that he would have urged 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 3: the FED to lower interest rates last February. But for 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 3: the chaos that Donald Trump has been causing over tariffs 25 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: and the kind of fallout that that's going to create 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 3: in the economy. So if Donald Trump really wants to 27 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 3: see interest rates come down, then stop creating so much 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 3: chaos around tariffs. And I hope the FED could get 29 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 3: it done. 30 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: That said Senator, realizing you prefer lower interest rates. Does J. 31 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: Powell deserve some credit for holding steady in the face 32 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: of this pressure from President Trump. 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: Look now it's like an upside down the world. I 34 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: want to see Fed Chair Powell lower interest rates. I 35 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: think that's good for families. I think it's the right 36 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: thing to do in the economy. But I also want 37 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: to see an independent FED. And when Donald Trump simply 38 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 3: tries to persuade, he says, here are the arguments in favor, 39 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 3: here's why I think you should do it. I get that. 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: But when he threatens to fire Powell, when he blows 41 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: up this whole pretext of trying to fire him for cause, 42 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: when he does that kind of thing, now he threatens 43 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: the independence of the FED. And there's a real cost 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: of that, not for Jerome Powell personally, but a real 45 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 3: cost for our economy. We have built much of our 46 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: economic foundation on the notion that the FED makes its 47 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 3: decisions independent of political pressure, and that they are a 48 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 3: group of people who are economically informed, follow the data, 49 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: and they make those decisions on monetary policy based on 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: what they think the data are telling them about inflation 51 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: and jobs. And when Donald Trump blows through all that, 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: he undermines confidence in the FED and in our entire 53 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: financial system. That's a real problem. 54 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Well. 55 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: Of course, part of what President Trump and others in 56 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: the administration argue is that at the FED lowers interest rates, 57 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: it will help to ease the issue we have in 58 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: this country with housing in particular, at least on the 59 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: interest rates side. But I know you and your colleagues 60 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: in the Banking Committee are also trying to do things 61 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: about that on the supply side. Is the measure you 62 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: co sponsored with Chairman Scott, the Renewing Opportunity in the 63 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: American Dream to Housing Act, passed unanimously through a committee, 64 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: quite the bipartisan feat in today's political environment. Senator, my 65 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: question is when we look at the contents of that bill, 66 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: knowing that part of it is asking hud to establish 67 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: new things like loan and grant programs for qualified homeowners 68 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: or landlords, knowing at the same time the administration is 69 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: actually trying to reduce HUD as we speak. Do these 70 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: things run into conflict with each other? Can both be 71 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: done at the same time? 72 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 3: So if I can let me back out just a 73 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 3: tiny little bit, we have a housing crisis in America. 74 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: Prices are up, and for decades now, officials have just 75 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: stood by policymakers and said, wow, prices just keep going up. 76 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 3: That's a real problem. The real problem is we don't 77 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: have in US housing. It is a supply problem. So 78 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: what we have done with this bill is that we 79 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 3: are pushing toward more supply. We need about seven million 80 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 3: more housing units in America. This bill has twenty nine 81 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 3: different provisions to it that mostly all row in the 82 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 3: same direction. Some involve HUD, and many of them do 83 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: not involve HUD. But the whole point here is to 84 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: put the federal government in the position of saying it 85 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: is a matter of federal policy that we want to 86 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 3: encourage more housing development. We want more of it in Massachusetts, 87 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 3: in South Carolina, we want more of it out west, 88 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 3: down South, up north, we want it in urban areas 89 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: in rural areas, and every member of the committee, all 90 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: twenty four of us, have provisions in there to help 91 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: make that happen. Yes, we need a functional HUD to 92 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: help on parts of that, but I do want to 93 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 3: underline here some of the provisions in this bill are 94 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: about cutting red tape and slimming down some of the 95 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: programs that HUD works on. Other parts are about we're 96 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: gonna give some trial runs to some ideas and try 97 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: a few things that haven't been tried before. We even 98 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 3: have an innovation fund in this for cities and towns 99 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: that are trying to build more housing. There are a 100 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: lot of good ideas in this bill because the housing 101 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 3: problem we have right now wasn't caused by one thing 102 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: going wrong. It was caused by a lot of things 103 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: going wrong. So it's going to take a lot of 104 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 3: things to help fix it. And I'm excited say it again. 105 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: It was bipartisan unanimous in the United States Senate. That's 106 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: pretty amazing. 107 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: Well, it is duly noted unanimously passed out of committee. 108 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: That means every Democrat and Republican voted for this, suggesting 109 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: there could be some momentum on the floor if we 110 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: get that far Senator, there are a lot of questions 111 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: about the interference that you could bump into when lawmakers 112 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: returned to town following the August recess, assuming you get there. 113 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: One of those distractions is the Jeffrey Epstein story. And 114 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: I have to ask you about this, not that we're 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: featuring this in our interviews, but it is apparently impacting 116 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: the agenda. House lawmakers went home early because of this. 117 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: The President of the United States has been talking about, 118 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: or certainly asked about, a pardon repeatedly when it comes 119 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: to Gallaine Maxwell, and I'd like for you to hear 120 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: what he's said about this most recently and well asked 121 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: you about it. Here's President Trump. 122 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: High a pardon for Klain Maxwell, who landed? 123 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: Is that something you would ever consider. 124 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: A pardon for who? 125 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 3: For Kalay Maxwell? 126 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: Well, I'm allowed to give her a pardon, but nobody's 127 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: approached me with it, nobody's ask me about it. And 128 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: by the way, I never went to the island. I 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: never had the privilege of going to his island, and 130 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: I did turn it down. I don't know what we're 131 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: calling a privilege here, Senator, but I'm just wondering your 132 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: thoughts on this What do you think is more likely, 133 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: Gallainne Maxwell testifying before Congress or getting a pardon from 134 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. 135 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: I don't know what's more likely, and I'm not good 136 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: at anticipating this, but I just want to be clear. 137 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: The only way that this thing resolves itself is to 138 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: be completely transparent. Put out all of the records, all 139 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 3: the testimony, whatever it is that she has told the 140 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: lawyers down in Florida just earlier in the week. Get 141 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 3: all that information out there, Let everybody look at it, 142 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 3: and let people evaluate what they think is true, what 143 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: they think is not true, what they think is credible. 144 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: But this idea of holding back information and kind of 145 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 3: sorting through it a little piece here and a little 146 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: piece there, well, I gotta tell you that is keeping 147 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 3: everybody in churn over on the Republican side, sucking up 148 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: a lot of oxygen, oxygen that we could be using 149 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: to do things like work on a housing bill to 150 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 3: bring down the cost of housing for every family across 151 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: this country. 152 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Well, Congress pushed these files out in September, when everybody's. 153 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 3: Back, Well, the House has already moved in that direction. 154 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 3: If we need to. We have raised the issue now 155 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: in the Senate. Yeah, Look, this is one of the 156 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: things that Congress does. It's part of our oversight, and 157 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 3: that is to say, when it's time to make these 158 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 3: records public, let everybody see what's in the whole file. 159 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 3: Because there have been a lot of contradictory statements here. 160 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: Remember it was the Attorney General of the United States 161 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: who says at one point is that she has the 162 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: Epstein files on her desk. She's talking about backing up 163 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 3: what was it, a truckload of documents and files, and 164 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 3: then turns around and says, nothing to see here. Well, 165 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: you know that doesn't have much credibility for anyone. I 166 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: think the only way out of this mess is just 167 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 3: to be totally transparent. Just put it all out there, 168 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 3: let the American people sort through it. You know, Americans 169 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 3: are pretty smart and they'll figure out what it is 170 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 3: that's happened if they can see all of the pieces together. 171 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad we could talk about all of these 172 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: issues today. Senator, welcome back. Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, 173 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: ranking member, Senate Banking Committee. We thank you, as always