1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, along 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: with my co host of Bonnie Quinn. Every business day 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: along with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com. So rates for what's being 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: called Directors and Officers insurance they've skyrocketed because there's been 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: a surge in lawsuits by plaintiffs seeking to sue as 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: a group. Now the latest surgeon lawsuits coming as a 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: response to the coronavirus outbreak and how companies may have 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: bungled it in certain cases according to these plaintiffs. But interestingly, 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: Elon Musk never want to shy away from making a gesture. 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: Set in April, he was dropping the insurance policy that 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: protects Tesla's board from shareholder lawsuits. It doesn't mean they 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't be insured. It meant that he would pay out 16 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: of his own pocket. It's a fantastic story today, brought 17 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: to us by Jeff Phey and Catherine Chilinsky of Bloomberg News, 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: and let's bring them in now. Jeff, why that Elon 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: Musk have put himself on the line, Like, it's not 20 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: that he doesn't have enough money, but I mean these 21 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: are potentially multimillion even more lawsuits. Elon is Elon is 22 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: what I want to say to start off. Also, I mean, 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: you're talking about an average increase over the last two 24 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: years of this kind of insurance starting to get a 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: bit out of hand, and the insurance company is insurance 26 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: companies are citing a jump in the numbers of security 27 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: suits and then of course the COVID thing, both of 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: which are legitimate reasons. But I mean forty percent in 29 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: a two year period, that's a that's a pretty big bump. 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean companies are looking to conserved 31 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: resources given the economic body blows of the pandemic has caused. 32 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: So Elon sees this as a way of saving money. 33 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: So kind I want to bring you in here. You 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: cover all things on the insurance side on this d 35 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: n O or Directors and Officers insurance market. Here, what 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: is it typically cover? What kind of protections is it 37 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: typically give a board member? Yeah, so it gives them 38 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: a lot of liability protection in case they're stuit um. 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: It often you know, you see it occur when some 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: shareholder files the suit that alleges, you know, they've been 41 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: hurt because of a stock drop, which kind of makes 42 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: this a really interesting time period for the market, um 43 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: because you know, while we did see sort of the 44 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: stock market crash and a bit of the first quarter, 45 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: especially in March, it was a broad based decline. So 46 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: I think it's going to make a lot of these 47 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: claims a little more intriguing because whether you can prove 48 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: the cause, whether you were hurt by um this broad market, 49 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: or if it was just something that really affected a 50 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: bunch of companies at once. I think it's going to 51 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: be kind of an interesting tension we'll see in these lawsuits, well, 52 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: just on that particular. In christition as well. I mean, 53 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: there are some companies for whom that's more of a 54 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: problem than others, and Tesla might be one of them, 55 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: considering we saw it's your price cool above a thousand 56 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: dollars last week. And Ellen himself has run ins with 57 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: regulators from time to time, given his his round things 58 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: on Twitter sometimes and they can move stocks. So is 59 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: he really putting himself on the line. I mean, what's 60 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: the worst case scenario for Elon Musk in this in 61 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: this in this scene, Catherine Well, I would say, I mean, 62 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: obviously if there are lawfoods, then they do prove quite 63 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: um successful against him. You know, he's got a lot 64 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: on the line, and that's it becomes quite tricky in 65 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: his case because there are some conflicts of interest that 66 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: people have raised. You know, the board members need to 67 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: sort of make sure his wealth is there in a 68 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: way to protect them and um, and that's where do 69 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, insurance always gets kind of interesting. You know, 70 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: That's why a lot of people turn to sort of 71 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: the traditional insurers to buy it because they want, you know, 72 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: someone who's very separate from the company and the board 73 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: to ensure them so that there's no conflict of interest. 74 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: And I think those were some of the concerns that 75 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, experts we talked to raised, is that Ellen 76 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: is going to have to work over money if there 77 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: is a loss, and you know, he has obviously got 78 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the Tesla and the board and they're 79 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: gonna have to make sure that they can kind of 80 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: keep things very independent. Yeah, Jeff, I kind of want 81 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: to follow up on that. If I were a board 82 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: member Tesla, I'm much sure. I'm sure, I'm I'm drinking 83 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: the Elon Tesla uh Elon Musk kool aid, But I'm 84 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: not sure i'd be comfortable not having that DNO insurance 85 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: policy behind me. What's the sense of other companies out there? 86 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: I mean, this is really unusual, isn't it? It is? 87 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: And given what Elon Musk thinks the best most journalists, 88 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: I would not sit by the phone waiting for that 89 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: call for your board appointment. But um um, the reality 90 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: is that nobody else that we were able to find 91 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: has done this. You know, we we poked around. Ja 92 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: and Jay may have had. They wouldn't comment on it. 93 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: They have their own captives ensure. But here's the reality. 94 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: We quote Stip McBride, who's a director at companies such 95 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: as Bluebell ice Cream in Texas as an old DNO 96 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: expert marketing from Mark Lane here now, and we quote 97 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: him the saying he would not join the Tesla board 98 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: without cutting his own separate deal with Elon Musk, That 99 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: he would write that would leave him no wiggle room 100 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: on covering litigation against Skip McBride. They may have done that. 101 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: That may be the way that they have handled that. 102 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: They did not disclose that, by the way, in their 103 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: SEC filings, what they did disclose is that the Elon's 104 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: board had basically chewed over the idea of whether this 105 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: left them in a conflict position when they found that 106 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: it did not. So, you know, this is all one 107 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: big Google lots that you've got sort of swirling around 108 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: involving COVID. You have the insurance industry saying that they 109 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: faced potential losses of four hundred and eighty billion dollars. 110 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: That's gonna be every month over insurance claims, business and 111 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: eruption other insurance claims. D you know, for an eighty 112 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: billion a month, it's really phenomenal. But I suppose, you know, 113 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, if the price has gone off that much, 114 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: then I guess you do get to that number pretty quickly. 115 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: What's the outlook for these coronavirus cases, Jeff, I mean here, 116 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: there's going to be so many of them. Yeah, here's 117 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: the deal. And you guys mentioned Tesla as being somebody 118 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: who's a particular risk. I don't see them at particular risk. 119 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: You know, we note in the story used a particular 120 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: risk as a Norwegian Cruise line and Princess Cruise Line, 121 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: and those guys have got already got at least a 122 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: half dozen security suits against them, saying not only did 123 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: you bungle COVID, but in the in the example of Norwegian, 124 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: you basically lied to people about you know, how bad 125 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: COVID was trying to get them to keep their booking 126 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: dates on the cruises that goes before a jury. And 127 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: I don't even want to think of a number that 128 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: gets attached in the verdict. Jeff Philly, thanks so much 129 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: for joining us. Jeff Philly is a legal reporter for 130 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News uh and Cat Lynskey financial reporter covering all 131 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: things insurance for Bloomberg News as well, with a fascinating 132 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: story the two had out today, Elon Musk effectively self 133 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: ensuring his board. I. I just can't think another example 134 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: of that, Bonnie. I mean, if you were counting on 135 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: your CEO to ensure you poll, would you argue with him? Uh? No, 136 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, I just think the risk, 137 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: particularly in this environment, or just too great. And I 138 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: think it's, you know, it's really too much really to 139 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: ask for board member. I think in this environment, yeah, exactly, 140 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: I mean captive insurance trickier with dno because of conflicts 141 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: of interest. As we say in the story, it's definitely 142 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: well worth reading the whole story. Absolutely great stuff coming 143 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: out of Bloomberg does. Yeah, that's what he does. It's 144 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: Ellen being elon Hens one of the biggest public pension 145 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: plans in the country, second to maybe only one other. 146 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: Let's bring in Chris Ellman, chief investment officer at callister 147 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: Is the California State Teachers Retirement System. Chris, welcome back. Well, Fannie, 148 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: it's good to be back. We're number two in assets, 149 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: but we're number one in everyone's heart. That's what I 150 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: was hinting out there. Chris, Well, let's get straight to it. Then. 151 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: Have you had to revise what you're assuming you're going 152 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: to make in returns over the next several years. Well, 153 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: we haven't changed our long term assumption because it's a 154 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: thirty year average, Fannie. But what we have done is 155 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: reassessed and the keyword was when the Fed said interest 156 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: rates we're going to stay at zero through that's a 157 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: powerful statement, and so the next five years will probably 158 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: be lower returns, although the last time the Fed did that, 159 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: we had double digit returns for those five years. So 160 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: risk assets maybe profitable during this time period we have 161 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: to get through the health crisis. But I think that 162 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: we're going to see very low returns. Obviously had a 163 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: fixed income corporate credit uh anything was variable rates that reset, 164 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: but that means that equity investments and growth investments may 165 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: have a chance to use that free money that financing. 166 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: So Chris your your kind of parts. At Cowper's UH, 167 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: they were talking about needing to maybe I more private 168 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: equity uh to leverage and maybe even more leverage to 169 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: boost returns. I making the portfolio a little bit more 170 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: riskier in order to generate the returns that they need. 171 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: How do you view that? Yeah, Ben Ming's uh new 172 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: c I oh there, who's really taking a comprehensive look 173 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: at the portfolio? And we're all seeing a trend that 174 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: the Canadians have used some of the Dutch pension plans 175 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: UH and Danish pension plans have used, which is too 176 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: You know, when when interest rates are zero, uh, you 177 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: borrow money and leverage and you and go into growth assets. 178 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: But I think there's a natural for a public pension. 179 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: There's got to be a limit to that. And that's 180 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: what everybody wants to explore. You want to use that 181 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: lower cost money as an opportunity to buy into things 182 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: like real estate. Private equity should take advantage of it, obviously, um, 183 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: but also just across the portfolio. But there are natural limits, 184 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: no one has defined that. But but probably not more 185 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: than leverage. Um. We have a leverage policy. We actually 186 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: monitor that very closely. You take leverage in real estate. 187 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: Everybody buys their home with what down maybe down, so 188 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: they're leveraging over half. A public pension plan would be 189 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: doing just the opposite, barely leveraging the portfolio, Paul Um. 190 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: But it's it's simply because the fact that the Fed 191 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: has signaled rates are going to be so low for 192 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: so long. Um, that's very inexpensive money that allows you 193 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: to invest in other places. But not until the health 194 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: crisis is resolved. And can I point out, Chris and 195 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, But you guys would actually 196 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: have been doing a little bit more of this than 197 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: other retirement systems for a long time. You've always been 198 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: a little more into real estate, a little riskier when 199 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: it comes to venture and growth and even fund of 200 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: funds and alternatives generally. Right, Well, Bonnie, uh spot on. 201 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: You've known me for almost two decades. I think, UM, 202 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: we we do tilt a little heavier toward real estate 203 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: UM than most public pensions UH, State of Washington, ourselves, Oregon. 204 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: There's a lot of funds that have a fairly large 205 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: allocation to private equity. UH. At our fund it's it's 206 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: currently about ten percent going to which is a big 207 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: dollar amount UM. And you know, the returns from private 208 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: equity are going to come down, but they're going to 209 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: be helped by this lower money. And the reason you're 210 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: going to come down is simply competition. There's just too 211 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: much money chasing too few deals. And and before the 212 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: health crisis, private equity companies were paying top dollar for 213 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: any kind of an investment, and that usually means lower 214 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: returns going forward. So we're still going to stay in 215 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: the space, but it's going to be less of a 216 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: return than you used to see. And the stay the 217 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: nineties of the two thousands. We think a broadly diverse 218 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: side portfolio is gonna help you through this. Growth investments 219 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: once we get out of the health crisis, growth investments 220 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: will be attractive to people, and that could be even 221 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: in US and non US stocks. You know the world 222 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: has had so many geopolitical challenges. Um, if you could 223 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: get its act together, Japan could finally start growing again. 224 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: You've got some investment opportunities, big if at the start 225 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: of those. Well again, I have to keep cavigating. We've 226 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: got to get through this health crisis. Yeah. Absolutely, that's 227 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: paramount for everybody. I think you know, it goes without saying, 228 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: but Chris, talk to me about your real estate holdings 229 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: and what you're you on real estate is right now, 230 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: because I think that sort of has split people in two, 231 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: does to what they are anticipating in terms of inflation 232 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: as to what they're anticipating in terms of how you 233 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: know structurally, light will change after this. Good good point, Bunny. 234 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: You know, right now real estate is fairly frozen. There 235 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: are no transactions, so there's no price information to figure 236 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: out where things are going into This real estate was 237 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: pretty much priced of perfection. The real estate our team 238 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: was doing was more build two core as we describe it, 239 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: so so speculative building, but leasing up the property and 240 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: making it a core holding. Most of the return in 241 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: real estate comes out of your lease income. It does 242 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: not come out of capital appreciation. As much as people 243 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: focus on that, I think that will be true and 244 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: you're right, the dynamics of the typical downtown office building 245 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: are going to change. Um, this is the first time 246 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: in my forty year career I've been able to work 247 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: from home. But I like it. I know my staff 248 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: of my staff liked it. So I think we're still 249 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: gonna have to come back to the office interact. Yeah, 250 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: it is amazing, you know there, but there's less interaction, 251 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: there's less dropping in in people's office and sharing ideas. 252 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: We need that interaction, that that creativity and the culture. 253 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: There's no culture when you're working from a zoom screen. 254 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: So but I think we're going to see a new 255 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: dynamic where, yes, a lot of people at least a 256 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: few days a week, maybe a week a month, work 257 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: from home. Um. Certainly the young families love it because 258 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: then they can be with their kids. But I can 259 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: tell you that people with teenagers are happy to get 260 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: back to the office. They want to get out of out. 261 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a split. But you know the 262 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: other part of real estate apartments industrial Um, all of 263 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: those wonderful Amazon fulfillment centers, those are still very profitable. 264 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: There are sub segments in real estates such as UH 265 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: the server centers where the internet has to be kind 266 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: of housed or hubbed. Uh, those are profitable. So you know, 267 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: I've think I've always liked industrial because it's just big 268 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: and bold and and not a lot of landscapes, so 269 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: you don't have to water it. As long as the 270 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: trucks pull up, you're making money. Um. Retail is going 271 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: to be challenged, obviously, but people do want to go 272 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: back to the mall. But we've been we've in retail, 273 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: we've been underweight, and we have been a grocery anchored 274 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of local chains and centers for a long time. 275 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: And Chris, thanks so much for joining us. We always 276 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: appreciate hearing your broad perspective. Chris Ailment, chief investment officer 277 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: for the California State Teachers Retirement System. They've got a 278 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: couple of dollars under management, about two thirty nine billion 279 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: based in Sacramento, putting that money to work for all 280 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: the good teachers from the state of California. Supreme Court 281 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: has been a busy here. Today, a divided US Supreme 282 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: Court ruled that federal law protects gay and transgender workers 283 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: from job discrimination, in a decision that gives millions of 284 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: LGBT people new civil rights. To get the latest on this, 285 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: we welcome Gregg's store. He covers all things on the 286 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: Supreme Court for us. Greg, So give us a sense 287 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: of how important this decision is. Greg, Was it expected? 288 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: What's your take? It's hugely important. Uh, more than half 289 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: the U. S States don't cover sexual orientation and gender 290 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: identity through their own antidiscrimination laws. And what that meant 291 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: was and most of the country it was perfectly legal 292 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: for an employer to fire somebody because of his or 293 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: her gender identity or sexual orientation. Now that can no 294 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: longer happen. And it's a ruling that came out of 295 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: a pretty conservative Supreme Court. Yeah, isn't it phenomenal? Greg? 296 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: Because it's it's quite ironic that even though we had 297 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: that massive decision a few years ago in two thousand 298 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: and fifteen legalizing same sex mariginationwide, that still people who 299 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: could have been fired from their jobs for the very 300 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: same thing, for being gay. Yeah, ironic is exactly the 301 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: right word for it. And it's something that a lot 302 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: of people did not know. But that decision involving gay 303 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: marriage was a constitutional decision. This was a matter of 304 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: interpreting uh, the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. UH. 305 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: That law says that you can't discriminate against somebody on 306 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: the basis of sex. And the core question for the 307 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: Court in this case was a somewhat technical question, which 308 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: is whether that phrase words sex covers sexual orientation and 309 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: gender identity. And the Supreme Court today said yes, it does. 310 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: So it's interesting, Greg, I saw the conservative Justice Neil 311 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: Gorsuch and Chief Justice John Roberts joined the courts for 312 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: liberals in the six three majority vote. How surprising was 313 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: that to see those two conservative judges vote this way. 314 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: The Chief Justice was probably more surprising. A lot of 315 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: us had watched Justice Gorsers during the arguments, which were 316 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: way back in October UM, and he suggested that he 317 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: might actually read the statute this way, So there was 318 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: at least the possibility after the argument that he would 319 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: join the liberals in the Jordy UH. Chief Justice Roberts 320 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: did not suggest any such thing, And he had actually 321 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: been in dissent and all the courts be gay rights 322 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: decisions UH leading up to this moment, so I'm not 323 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: sure I would have guessed that he would have been there. 324 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: This was something that was certainly in the mix. But again, 325 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: given the overall direction of the court, it's a court 326 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: that has become more conservative since Donald Trump got to 327 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: appoint to justices, including gorst. Uh. You know, you have 328 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: to say, wow, it's it's it's quite a surprise to 329 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: see this court issue this really well. And in fact, 330 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: it was actually a trio of cases they were considering, 331 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: So the two gay rights cases, but also a very 332 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: interesting case transgender rights case a concerned a Michigan funeral 333 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: home chain that fired Amy Stevens. She was preparing to 334 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: start living openly as a woman. Tragically, though she she's 335 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: died now and the Supreme Court has come out with 336 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: the decision just more than a month after she died. Yes, 337 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: she did. She had had a health problems for for 338 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: a while. Um, you know, she she did get to 339 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: see a federal appeals court rule in her favor, but 340 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: of course when the Supreme Court got involved, that victory 341 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: for her was was in jeopardy. Um. You know, her 342 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: name will certainly be remembered as uh, someone who pushed 343 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: this issue, who insisted that she should be treated equally, 344 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: that she should not be discriminated against because she had 345 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: decided to begin living openly as a woman. But yes, 346 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: tragic for her that she didn't live to see this day. 347 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: It's interesting, Greg Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, just 348 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: came out applauding the Supreme Court decision. Here. What's the 349 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: general feeling of corporate America as it relates to these 350 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: types of rights and what do you think the response 351 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: will be to this ruling. I think there'll be a 352 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: lot more of of what you just heard from from 353 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: Tim Cook. Uh, corporate America was was generally on the 354 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: side of expanding LGBT rights. Uh. In part just a 355 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: calculated business decision that they want to see clear rules 356 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: and now they know what the rules are, Uh, they 357 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: cannot discriminate. Uh. You know, and it's a nationwide rule. 358 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: They don't have to worry about a patchwork across the country. 359 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: But there's also you know, when you talk to a 360 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: lot of corporate leaders, they talk about how important it 361 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: is for them to maintain a diverse and welcoming workforce. Uh, 362 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: And this is something that in their minds will certainly 363 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: push us in that direction. Yeah, it's amazing. Just more 364 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: broadly on the docket, and what's left for the rest 365 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: of the year, and who will write the decisions. Greg, 366 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: I know you've been keeping ride. Well. I wouldn't have 367 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: guessed that Justice Courses was going to write this decision, 368 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: So I don't know who's going to write what going forward. 369 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: One big one we're waiting for, we should get pretty soon, 370 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: is whether President Trump can abolish the DOCTA deferred deportation program. Uh. 371 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: That's obviously gonna be very contentious. We're gonna have rulings 372 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: on abortion, religious rights, and then probably near the very 373 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: end of the term, rulings on those subpoenas by the 374 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: House and a New York Grand jury for President Trump's 375 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: financial and formation. That will no doubt be one of 376 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: the most politically divisive rulings of the term, and just 377 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: on which justices are left to right decisions at least, well, 378 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: it could be the way it works out. I would 379 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: expect Chief Justice Roberts to write some of the big ones. Uh. 380 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: The whole dynamic of who writes what the opinion is 381 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: dependent on the sitting in which the Court uh issues 382 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: it's ruling. So at this point it's a little hard 383 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: to guess. Um. I do think Chief Justice Roberts a 384 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: very good chance he will be the one writing the 385 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: doctor decision. Beyond that, it's a little hard to speculate. 386 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: All right, well, it is fascinating. Well, can keep an 387 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: eye on all of your stories, particularly that seminal decision 388 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: today from the Supreme Courts. It's amazing millions of LGBT 389 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: people use civil rights. Yeah, it's really it's extraordinary. I 390 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: wasn't aware that that many states did not have that 391 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: protections at the state level. So obviously this is a compelling, 392 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: uh and exceptionally important ruling here by the Supreme Court. 393 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: And it's always the incremental decision that makes change right 394 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: our Thanks to Greg's store, Supreme Court reporter for Bloomberg, 395 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: it is time for a Bloomberg Opinion segment. Max Neeson, biotech, 396 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: farm and healthcare calumnists for Bloomberg Opinion, joins us. Max, 397 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: You've got a great column out and I love that 398 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: the title here the headline to fight COVID nineteen this fall, 399 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: get a flu shot. We'll talk to us about the 400 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: flu shot. The people actually get this thing that doesn't work, 401 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: and how could it help in the you know, the 402 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: pandemic nineteen world. Yeah, absolutely so. I think what we're 403 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: seeing with with cases spiking in a number of U. 404 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: S States is pretty clear confirmation that the COVID nineteen 405 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: is is going to be around in a significant way 406 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 1: for some time to come. Considering that, you know, many 407 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: states never quite got it under control and have sort 408 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: of proceeded with openings without necessarily having developed the sort 409 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: of track tracing isolating capability that they need to keep 410 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 1: incidents flow over the long run. That means we'll have 411 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: cases in the fall as um, you know, you get 412 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: the seasonal return of flu and these are viruses diseases 413 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: that can look similar, both of which can can land 414 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: people in the hospital, and um, you know, in combination, 415 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: if you get a particularly severe flu season, you have 416 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: the potential to further overwhelm healthcare and hospital systems and 417 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: create a lot of extra sort of confusion and fear 418 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: um from people that that might think they have COVID 419 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: but could have flu, and then potentially, you know, uh 420 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: go get tested and just a lot of a lot 421 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: more burden on un testing and healthcare providers. So um, 422 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of something that that the federal 423 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: government and state governments could do ahead of time, ahead 424 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: of that that potential result is roll out to a 425 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: greater extent um a flu vaccination program try to get 426 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: a higher proportion of the population vaccinated. And while the 427 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: effectiveness of the flu vaccine can vary depending on the strain, 428 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: into what extent vaccine developers get it right, I nearly 429 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: always provide some degree of protection, and really, ahead of 430 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: the autumn, anything that we can get to reduce the 431 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: burden is worthwhile. So really, the argument max has nothing 432 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: to do with coronavirus itself. It's just this may help 433 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: you not get flu, which will help the system in 434 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: terms of not overwhelming hospitals or doctors offices, and it 435 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: may keep you away from coronavirus plagued areas as well 436 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: should they re emerge. What about the different strains of flu? 437 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: What's the likelihood that the season's flu vaccine will work 438 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: better than other seasons of it all? Um, you know 439 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: that that's something that we won't know much about until 440 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: until we have the flu virus actually starts to circulate. 441 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: But you know, I think the a couple of extra 442 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: things to add on why this effort is worthwhile. First is, 443 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, the flu will already have a harder time 444 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: if people are taking some degree of distancing steps masking UM, 445 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: you know, using greater hygiene efforts, adding even UM you know, 446 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: an average or less than average of vaccine on top 447 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: of that should lead to a much less acute season, 448 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: and then that's worthwhile. On top of that, any effort 449 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: to expand vaccination UM, get people connected with providers, create 450 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, more accessible vaccination type target the sorts of 451 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: population that don't always get vaccinated that can be re applied, 452 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: reused in the future when we get a COVID vaccine, 453 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: because you know, it's not just getting into a vaccine, 454 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: but but getting it um in enough of a population 455 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: that you can have that that sort of broad protective effect. 456 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: That's going to be a huge challenge. And anything we 457 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: can do to build that infrastructure ahead of time while 458 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: doing something else useful should should be very helpful. So, Max, 459 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: I know this is a very fluid area here, but 460 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: give us a sense of kind of where we are 461 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: in terms of the vaccine. I know we've got many, 462 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: many groups, many companies, many research universities working towards it. 463 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: Kind of give us just a thirty foot view where 464 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: we are right now, still in very early stages. We 465 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: we just got some limited data from the vaccine China 466 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: signo vax vaccine and you know it looked it's what 467 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: you want to see, some degree of immune reaction, no 468 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: severe safety events. But it has with madurna pretty limited 469 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: data disclosure. Um, you know, we're really there. There's going 470 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: to be sort of a low bar for moving into 471 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: larger studies because we we want to try as many 472 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: different vaccine approaches as possible. It's gonna be some time 473 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: before we have a really solid sense of what's likely 474 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: to succeed and when and what what the most effective 475 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: vaccines will be. So still early days, but but lots 476 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: of progress being made now. We have openings in a 477 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: lot of places. Retail outlets in England selling non essential 478 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: items open today for the first time. Obviously, places like 479 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: New York are beginning to reopen as well. But Dr 480 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: Anthony Fauci suggested bands on travel to the United States 481 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: may remain untilvaccine arrives. How likely is that, Max, You know, 482 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: I think it depends on the situation going forward. And 483 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: you know some of those will be you know, relative 484 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: directed at other countries, other countries that cleft to your outbreaks. 485 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: Other countries may be hesitant about letting people travel here 486 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: just be considering that the virus continues to circulate that 487 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: I rates. It all depends on the extent to which um, 488 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, states take action to keep for new outbreaks 489 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: under control, continue to do all of the many things 490 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: governments can do independent of the vaccine to keep incidents 491 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: low in the long run. Well, I would urge everybody 492 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: to keep up with Max's writings. He's writing a lot 493 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg opinion pieces on the actual infection. Yeah. Absolutely, money, 494 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's interesting to see here. There's 495 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: a couple of paths here. We've got the path towards 496 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: treatments of uh, the illness as well as vaccines. And 497 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: we know that the again healthcare companies, research universities, doctors 498 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: and scientists across the world are working towards this, and 499 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, people are just kind of waiting beta breath 500 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: to see kind of how this progresses, and hopefully we 501 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: can get a vaccine sooner rather than later. Yeah, exactly. 502 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: Thanks to Max Nis and Bloomberg Opinion columnist. Thanks for 503 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen 504 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. 505 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: I'm Bonnie Quinn. I'm on Twitter at Bonnie Quinn. And 506 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before 507 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg 508 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: Radio