Speaker 1: The US dollar is the most important currency for transactions
Speaker 1: between companies and between nations around the world.
Speaker 2: King Dollar does still dominate.
Speaker 3: You don't really have a choice that you have to
Speaker 3: basically engage in US dollars if you want to participate
Speaker 3: in the kind of global financial system.
Speaker 1: Not so for China's currency, the yuan or renminbi. You'll
Speaker 1: often hear those used interchangeably. It accounts for just a
Speaker 1: tiny fraction of global transactions. But China's president Jijenping is
Speaker 1: out to change that. He's pressing to make the yuan
Speaker 1: a rival to the dollar. I'm wes Kosova today on
Speaker 1: the big tag can the yuan not king Dollar off
Speaker 1: its throne? As you might imagine, the answer to that
Speaker 1: question is complicated. Fortunately for US, Bloomberg's George Lay is
Speaker 1: here to break it down in plain language. George, one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why the US is so important to
Speaker 1: the world economy is that the dollar is the most
Speaker 1: widely used currency in the world. Can you give us
Speaker 1: a picture of why the dollar is so important?
Speaker 4: Basically, if we look at international transactions, international finance, or
Speaker 4: international trade, the dollar accounts for roughly half of all
Speaker 4: the global trade flows and If you count the Euro,
Speaker 4: that's another twenty five percent. So dollar and euro combined
Speaker 4: the account for roughly three quarters of all global transactions,
Speaker 4: whether it's person to person, whether it's between companies, and
Speaker 4: whether it's between state entities. So, just to give you
Speaker 4: an example, if China wants to buy iron, ore or
Speaker 4: other commodities from Brazil, the most common kind of transaction
Speaker 4: currency is the US dollar, And if someone based in
Speaker 4: Canada wants to wire money to Mexico, the intermediary currency
Speaker 4: is the US dollar. So it gives the United States
Speaker 4: a lot of advantage, but it also raises a lot
Speaker 4: of questions among people elsewhere, especially among people and among
Speaker 4: countries that are not in the US and in Europe.
Speaker 4: Back in April, when the President of Brazil visited Beijing,
Speaker 4: he asked a question, why should trades between China and
Speaker 4: Brazil be settled in the currency that is neither the
Speaker 4: Chinese you are nor the Brazilian reality.
Speaker 5: Every night, I asked myself, why should every country have
Speaker 5: to be tied to the dollar for trade? Why can
Speaker 5: we trade tied to our own councy, and why don't
Speaker 5: we have the community to re it?
Speaker 4: Okay, you know, compan do you not that. So a
Speaker 4: lot of countries want to to circumvent the US dollar
Speaker 4: as a payment currency for various reasons, economic reasons as
Speaker 4: well as political reasons.
Speaker 1: So why is the dollar and to a certain extent,
Speaker 1: the euro why have they become the default currencies for
Speaker 1: so many international transactions.
Speaker 4: A lot of it has to do with history, with
Speaker 4: the history of the global academy and global trade, because traditionally,
Speaker 4: if we look at the past thirty forty years, the
Speaker 4: US and European ecademies, they account for a big part
Speaker 4: of the global economy and a big part of the
Speaker 4: global trade. It is rapidly changing with China joining the picture.
Speaker 4: So China has been doing a lot of trades with
Speaker 4: other countries, non US, non European countries. So that's on
Speaker 4: one hand. On the other hand, it is because the
Speaker 4: US and Europe provide the most liquid financial markets when
Speaker 4: it comes to using these currency. So if a country
Speaker 4: receives the US dollars, it can do a lot with
Speaker 4: these dollars. It could invest in US treasury markets, it
Speaker 4: could invest in US stock market, and it could invest
Speaker 4: them money in the US in terms of foreign direct investments, factories,
Speaker 4: and other stuff. The same rule applies in Europe, but
Speaker 4: it is not really the case in China. China still
Speaker 4: has capital controls, So if you want to invest in
Speaker 4: Chinese bands, if you want to invest in Chinese stock markets,
Speaker 4: there are a lot more bureau credit controls than in
Speaker 4: US and Europe. So that also explains why countries would
Speaker 4: prefer to be paid in the US dollar and the
Speaker 4: euro instead of the Chinese yuan or the Brazilian reality
Speaker 4: or the Indian rupee.
Speaker 1: But now you report that China is becoming more assertive
Speaker 1: in wanting to make the uan's currency a currency that
Speaker 1: plays in international markets much more.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's exactly the case, especially after the war in Ukraine,
Speaker 4: because the leadership in Beijing witnessed the sanctions both by
Speaker 4: the US and by Europe piled upon Russia, and they
Speaker 4: realize that conducting transactions in the US and Europe might
Speaker 4: not be a safe choice. They really want to have
Speaker 4: some alternative just in case similar centris were imposed on China.
Speaker 1: And this is also part of the general growing rivalry
Speaker 1: between the US and China.
Speaker 5: Is that right?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Exactly. So, as you mentioned, there this ongoing geopolitical
Speaker 4: rivalry between the US and China, and Beijing wants to
Speaker 4: have alternatives to everything that so far has been US dominated.
Speaker 4: Beijing is trying to get companies to listed in Hong Kong,
Speaker 4: which they think it's a safer choice as a financial
Speaker 4: center than New York. Beijing is trying to push for
Speaker 4: domestically produced computer chips, and at the same time, Beijing
Speaker 4: is also trying to make sure that transactions, especially commodities,
Speaker 4: transactions that are vital to China's economy, that are vital
Speaker 4: to china national security, can be more or less settled
Speaker 4: in China's own currency instead of relying on the US
Speaker 4: dollar or the euro.
Speaker 1: So you can see why China would want to do this,
Speaker 1: But what is the appeal to other nations to adopt
Speaker 1: Chinese currency instead of continuing to do transactions in the
Speaker 1: dollar of the euro.
Speaker 4: I think first it's the diversification benefits. Let's take Russia
Speaker 4: for example. Before the war in Ukraine, China and Russia
Speaker 4: has also been pushing for the use of the Chinese
Speaker 4: rooming bee, but with very limited success.
Speaker 1: But Russia plans to cut dollar holdings in wealth fun
Speaker 1: to zero.
Speaker 4: After the war. The rooming bee payments and rooming bee
Speaker 4: transactions in Russia has really taken off. The Chinese UN
Speaker 4: has replaced both the US and the Euro as the
Speaker 4: most traded currency on the Moscow Exchange. So Russia might
Speaker 4: be in more extreme case because the country has been
Speaker 4: cut off from both US and eurofunding, so it has
Speaker 4: to rely on the Chinese ran. But it also serves
Speaker 4: as an example to other countries they see that using
Speaker 4: the Chinese ruan could be a success. In the case
Speaker 4: of Russia, with the UN, the Russia could continue to
Speaker 4: export its oil to Beijing, and with the Chinese UN
Speaker 4: it could import a lot of goods which were produced
Speaker 4: by China. So we're not talking about the Chinese ruan
Speaker 4: replacing the US dollar or the euro. Actually, in the
Speaker 4: medium term, if we look at the next five to
Speaker 4: ten years, very few people are forecasting the Chinese you
Speaker 4: are surpassing the dollar or euro as the most important
Speaker 4: currency of international trade. But the UN could provide some
Speaker 4: diversification benefits, and other countries could look at the geopolitical
Speaker 4: picture and say, hey, I don't want to put all
Speaker 4: my ads in the dollar and in the Europe. I
Speaker 4: could continue to be using the dollar using the Europe,
Speaker 4: but we could make five or ten percent of our
Speaker 4: trades in Chinese uan terms.
Speaker 1: You mentioned specifically how Russia has been adapting Chinese currency
Speaker 1: for that reason to circumvent these sanctions. Is this a
Speaker 1: way that countries that are seeking to get around US
Speaker 1: sanctions are increasingly using just simply to avoid the dollar altogether.
Speaker 4: I think it's still too early to tell, because if
Speaker 4: you look at the countries that are subject to a
Speaker 4: lot of US centrics, what we're talking about is Russia, Iran,
Speaker 4: North Korea. I think these are the most prominent examples.
Speaker 4: Russia is the country with the biggest economic size among
Speaker 4: all these we've talked about. Russia has a trillion dollar economy,
Speaker 4: and Russia has a lot of business to do with China,
Speaker 4: and Russia has really a big consumer base. It's a
Speaker 4: country with population of more than one hundred million people.
Speaker 4: And also Russia is cut off from the eurosystem as well,
Speaker 4: where it runs oil exports can still be priced and
Speaker 4: executed in euros. So we're really talking about in the
Speaker 4: experimental case of a big country, a trilling dollar economy
Speaker 4: with more than one hundred million people that at this
Speaker 4: point they were forced off the eurosystem and forced off
Speaker 4: the dollar system. But if it succeeds. China could just
Speaker 4: really take Russia as an example and go to other
Speaker 4: countries that are under US sanctions or that are not
Speaker 4: really on friendly terms with the US and say, hey,
Speaker 4: this could really work. Why don't you consider using my
Speaker 4: currency as well?
Speaker 1: And can you explain how Russia using yuan would enable
Speaker 1: it to get around US sanctions? How does that actually work?
Speaker 4: Because now let's take oil exports for them. Russia is
Speaker 4: not allowed to export oil to the US, it's not
Speaker 4: allowed to export oil to the European Union, but it
Speaker 4: is still permitted to export oil elsewhere. And still Russia
Speaker 4: exports oil to China and India, let's say, if they
Speaker 4: take their payments in the US dollars or in the euro.
Speaker 4: It is very difficult for Russia to dispose of these
Speaker 4: currencies because there are many restrictions on how or where
Speaker 4: Russia could deposit its affects reserves, how Russia can use it,
Speaker 4: and what kind of products Russia can buy. But if
Speaker 4: in Russian entity still holds US dollars and euros and
Speaker 4: still make transactions in US dollars and euros, it is
Speaker 4: subject to a lot of restrictions. But if it holds
Speaker 4: the Chinese UN. It is subject to practically no restrictions.
Speaker 4: Of course, if you're holding the Chinese UN there are
Speaker 4: certain goods that you cannot buy. It's it's difficult for
Speaker 4: you to take the US and say, hey, I want
Speaker 4: to buy a BMW or I want to buy some
Speaker 4: US products. But they could buy a lot of stuff
Speaker 4: that are produced by China, or buy countries that are
Speaker 4: not part of the euro or the US dollar system.
Speaker 4: Say they could buy Brazilian soy, they could buy Argentinian wheat.
Speaker 4: And now most of these transactions were still done in
Speaker 4: the US dollar euro. But if the RUN system becomes successful,
Speaker 4: they could take the gun and go to South America
Speaker 4: to buy a lot of food stuff. They could take
Speaker 4: the gun to China to buy cars, to buy machinery,
Speaker 4: to buy druns. For example, a lot of the civilian
Speaker 4: news drones were exported by Chinese companies, so they could
Speaker 4: in the sense, replace a lot of its merchandise needs
Speaker 4: that are currently supplied by the US and by European countries.
Speaker 1: After the break, Chinese currency slowly starts to work its way.
Speaker 6: In Argentina will use the yuan for trade with China
Speaker 6: and then stop. This month, the Chinese National Oil Company
Speaker 6: completing its first LNG trade with France's Hotel Energy using
Speaker 6: the Chinese yuan. Saudi Arabia is in discussions with China
Speaker 6: to price some of its oil sales in Yon.
Speaker 1: George, you mentioned Brazil as one country that's starting to
Speaker 1: question why everything is done in dollars in euros and
Speaker 1: are looking at Chinese currency as an alternative. What are
Speaker 1: some other countries that are doing the same.
Speaker 4: Argentina, for instance, Argentina has a effect swap line with China,
Speaker 4: which means the Argentine Central Bank could access the Chinese
Speaker 4: yuan if it needs. There's a quota on it, but
Speaker 4: they could access a few billions of dollars worth of
Speaker 4: the Chinese uit and they are recently tapping that swap
Speaker 4: line Brazil, as we mentioned, and back in March, China
Speaker 4: and Saudi Arabia signed the deal in which a Chinese
Speaker 4: state bank lent money to Saudi Arabia in Chinese rooming
Speaker 4: bee terms. They're increasingly more Western companies also using Chinese
Speaker 4: run as a settlement currency. In March, the French energy
Speaker 4: company Total Energy, they signed the deal with Chinese National
Speaker 4: Offshore Oil Corporation to settle a natural gas trade in
Speaker 4: the Chinese Rooming Bee and over the past couple of
Speaker 4: years Australian miners, including BHP, including real Tinto that have
Speaker 4: signed contracts with various Chinese state companies to settle iron
Speaker 4: ore trades in the Chinese run. I think it's really
Speaker 4: symbolic in terms of China really pushing to have these
Speaker 4: transactions with companies based in developed countries, let's say a
Speaker 4: French company or BHP in Australia. There's still a lot
Speaker 4: of hurdles for China to try to make you a
Speaker 4: sort of the default currents see you, or try to
Speaker 4: make you a major part of the transaction, because now
Speaker 4: if you're doing business with Friends or Australia, probably ninety
Speaker 4: nine percent of the transactions wouldn't be settled in the
Speaker 4: Chinese run. But at the same time, China is a
Speaker 4: major customer. China is one of the biggest buyers of
Speaker 4: natural gas, of oil, of iron ores, so it does
Speaker 4: have some leverage. I think now people realize it is
Speaker 4: a major policy imperative from high up that China wants
Speaker 4: to get the remain me to play a bigger role
Speaker 4: in terms of trade, in terms of settlements, especially in
Speaker 4: commodities trades. So Chinese state companies, which are the major
Speaker 4: buyers of these commodities, would really make the push to say,
Speaker 4: if I do business with you, I want a certain
Speaker 4: percentage of the deals settled in the Chinese run, whether
Speaker 4: you're a French company, an Australian company, or a Brazilian company.
Speaker 4: And I think these companies, the sellers, do have an
Speaker 4: incentive to satisfy the demands of the buyers in a sense,
Speaker 4: to satisfy the demands of your client. So China could
Speaker 4: really make the push to have a certain amount let's
Speaker 4: say one percent or two percent of the total trade
Speaker 4: volume settled in un But once you want to push further,
Speaker 4: once you want to do let's say five percent or
Speaker 4: ten percent. And these companies with the Chinese U and
Speaker 4: they still have limited access to Chinese markets, to Chinese starts,
Speaker 4: to Chinese bonds, so they might need to make reforms,
Speaker 4: make further reforms in their markets so that for companies
Speaker 4: having tens of billions of dollars worth of yourn, they
Speaker 4: need to find somewhere to invest in. China need to
Speaker 4: make its markets attractive to these investments.
Speaker 1: If other developed countries start seeing more of these deals
Speaker 1: taking place. Do you think that will lead to an
Speaker 1: increase in the willingness of other companies other countries to
Speaker 1: take a look at this currency, even though it's not
Speaker 1: fully convertible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think absolutely other companies and other countries would
Speaker 4: absolutely be looking at this and they would be thinking
Speaker 4: about this as an alternative, because if things go right,
Speaker 4: Chinese yuan has the potential to become the third widely
Speaker 4: used currency in terms of global trade and global finance.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's going to happen? Do you think
Speaker 1: that China's currency will become the third major currency in
Speaker 1: the world at some point?
Speaker 4: I think if they play the cards right, if they
Speaker 4: proceed with the same sense of urgency, if they and
Speaker 4: at the same time they really need to continue to
Speaker 4: make reform to their financial market, to their financial system
Speaker 4: over the next five to ten years, it's quite possible
Speaker 4: for the Chinese you and to become the third most
Speaker 4: used currency in global trade and global finance, exceeding all
Speaker 4: the other non dollar, non euro currencies that we're talking about,
Speaker 4: Canading dollar, Japanese and British pound. The bar for them
Speaker 4: to get close to or even replace the dollar euro
Speaker 4: it is extremely high. And also we need to consider
Speaker 4: the scenario because now the US and Europe isn't really
Speaker 4: pushing back on any kind of the un settlement projects
Speaker 4: or un settlement deals. So now the Chinese un is
Speaker 4: roughly somewhere between one percent and two percent of global
Speaker 4: trade and global finance global settlements. So once we reach
Speaker 4: a level of five percent or even ten percent, there
Speaker 4: is going to be I'm pretty sure there is going
Speaker 4: to be a strong response from US and Europe saying
Speaker 4: that we've got to stop this, because this is really
Speaker 4: threatening the role of the dollar into a less serch
Speaker 4: than euro in terms of the global financial ecosystem.
Speaker 1: George, thanks so much for coming on the show Central West.
Speaker 1: When we come back, how China's currency push fits into
Speaker 1: the nation's larger global ambitions. What we're talking about today
Speaker 1: is part of a larger effort by Xi Jinping to
Speaker 1: increase China's stature in global affairs and of course his
Speaker 1: own as well. Bloomberg reporter Rebecca Chung Wilkins is back
Speaker 1: with us again today to tell us all about that. Rebecca,
Speaker 1: China has become more ambitious on the world stage. We
Speaker 1: see Xi Jinping taking a bigger stance on international affairs,
Speaker 1: and now we see this move to make China's currency
Speaker 1: sort of a bigger player in international deals. How are
Speaker 1: those two things tied together?
Speaker 3: For China, the internationalization of its currency has always been
Speaker 3: a critical part of kind of establishing it on the
Speaker 3: world stage and crucially establishing an alternative to the US.
Speaker 3: And of course we know the dollar has this extraordinary
Speaker 3: and unique dominance when it comes to the global currency
Speaker 3: and what currency folks use. But over the last decade
Speaker 3: we've seen Beijing trying to make that push, and particularly
Speaker 3: for example, when we look at trade deals, policy makers
Speaker 3: in China often trying to incorporate or include some element
Speaker 3: of trade settlements in the UN as part of those deals.
Speaker 3: There's been some some momentum already. However, it really is
Speaker 3: Russia's war in Ukraine and that sweeping set of sanctions
Speaker 3: that has seen the acceleration of Yun's use and actually
Speaker 3: has done far more than any policy maker in Beijing
Speaker 3: has ever been able to do to make it more
Speaker 3: commonly used in the world.
Speaker 1: Which countries in particular have begun to take it. Advantage
Speaker 1: of this new arrangement, especially when the dollar now has
Speaker 1: become off limits to certain countries because of sanctions.
Speaker 3: Well, if we think sort of purely in geopolitical terms,
Speaker 3: countries as their position somewhere between an allegiance or a
Speaker 3: leaning towards the US versus China, and what we tend
Speaker 3: to see is countries that may have an inclination towards leading,
Speaker 3: either as full formal partners of China or perhaps just
Speaker 3: more inclined, they tend to be much more interested. So,
Speaker 3: for example, we've seen recent deals by Middle Eastern countries.
Speaker 3: We tend to see more attention and more enthusiasm for
Speaker 3: these types of countries, countries that we may see also
Speaker 3: that China has made much more an effort to engage
Speaker 3: with typically countries sometimes called the Global South.
Speaker 2: What's surprising though, is increasingly.
Speaker 3: As the UN has become more popular, we have seen
Speaker 3: even for example, France one of its companies, choosing to
Speaker 3: settle a trade deal in the UN as well.
Speaker 1: What do you foresee? How long do you think before
Speaker 1: yon winds up becoming a significant currency that competes with
Speaker 1: the dollar, that competes with the euro for transactions all
Speaker 1: over the place.
Speaker 3: I've asked a lot of traders what they think about this,
Speaker 3: and the answer I always care is it depends, and
Speaker 3: I get answers that go anywhere between ten years and
Speaker 3: one hundred or two hundred years. And I think the
Speaker 3: factor that really affects that is geopolitical, whether there we
Speaker 3: see this urgent need to create an alternative, and when
Speaker 3: we look at, for example, how important Russia's were in
Speaker 3: Ukraine has been to kind of pushing momentum for the
Speaker 3: use of the UN, you can see these type of
Speaker 3: events can be critical in changing that balance. The percentage
Speaker 3: is very, very small so far, but if you have
Speaker 3: these sort of big geopolitical events, they can totally change
Speaker 3: the balance, and relatively quickly. We're talking about a year
Speaker 3: essentially of sanctions.
Speaker 2: The one big.
Speaker 3: Question, of course, is whether and how far the economic
Speaker 3: state craft agenda goes when it comes to the US
Speaker 3: and its allies. How far are the US and allies
Speaker 3: going to go when it comes to containing China as
Speaker 3: it would call it, and trying to curb China's influence.
Speaker 2: In the world.
Speaker 3: The more it does so, the more incentive there is
Speaker 3: for China into particular to really drive home that agenda,
Speaker 3: and of course all the countries around it that want
Speaker 3: to continue doing trade with it. I think the way
Speaker 3: China sees it is not necessarily a bipolar system, but
Speaker 3: a multipolar system where countries have much more autonomy and essentially,
Speaker 3: as they see it, are not under the thumb of
Speaker 3: the US. So there is this alternative to pit and
Speaker 3: there's a real alternative to pick. Of course, that point,
Speaker 3: king dollar does still dominate. You don't really have a
Speaker 3: choice that you have to basically engage in US dollars
Speaker 3: if you want it to participate in the kind of
Speaker 3: global financial system. It's really that shift in balance that
Speaker 3: they want, not necessarily ultimately to be picking between one
Speaker 3: and the other. And I would imagine also there is
Speaker 3: some element in which ultimately there would be a desire.
Speaker 2: For this to be more neutral.
Speaker 3: You know, these sort of issues now have become politicized
Speaker 3: in a way that they haven't been in the past,
Speaker 3: and I suppose ultimately there perhaps would be this desire
Speaker 3: for Chinese policymakers for the use of the UN to
Speaker 3: not be seen in fact as a way of a
Speaker 3: mechanism of picking sides, but simply as a mechanism is
Speaker 3: simply of doing business in a world, a world in
Speaker 3: which China is much more powerful.
Speaker 1: I suppose. In order for that to happen, it would
Speaker 1: require the US, it would require EU countries to accept
Speaker 1: you on as another currency. It couldn't just go one way,
Speaker 1: and we haven't seen much evidence of that happening.
Speaker 3: No, And that again speaks to the sort of very
Speaker 3: small percentage of use by the UN so far internationally.
Speaker 3: Although we have seen these sort of sporadic deals mentioned
Speaker 3: for example, French deal, it's still very very small. Given
Speaker 3: the kind of context of US China relations, We're a
Speaker 3: ways away before seeing anything like that from the US,
Speaker 3: but even some of its allies and its partners have
Speaker 3: been relatively slow to engage in this too.
Speaker 1: What would the economic effects for the US, for the
Speaker 1: EUB if the yuon started to encroach on the dollar's
Speaker 1: dominance and even the dominance of the euro.
Speaker 3: It's a really hard question to answer, I think, because
Speaker 3: so much of that would depend on the pace and
Speaker 3: the scale and the reason why we saw that coming
Speaker 3: in if it was introduced in the context of some
Speaker 3: kind of sanctions, for example, being leveraged on China, and
Speaker 3: this really urgent desire to push an alternative that actually
Speaker 3: can function very quickly at the scale that China would
Speaker 3: need it to that of course, would be much more
Speaker 3: challenging to the US. But if we're talking about something
Speaker 3: that's a much more gradual process and that's accompanied by
Speaker 3: some kind of raprochement in kind of geoplisical tension, too,
Speaker 3: we wouldn't necessarily see that happening. And in fact, some
Speaker 3: element of diversification, some element that kind of reduces the
Speaker 3: reliance on the dollar, also is potentially good for other
Speaker 3: developing nations.
Speaker 2: You know. The whole point.
Speaker 3: About having diversity is essentially not to be so vulnerable
Speaker 3: when the dollar moves and so on, and so there
Speaker 3: is also an argument to be made that of somewhat
Speaker 3: more diverse global settlement currency could actually help create a
Speaker 3: bit more stability in some of those emerging markets too.
Speaker 1: So, Rebecca, this is obviously something that a lot of
Speaker 1: people are just keeping an eye on to see how
Speaker 1: it unfolds. As somebody who's covering in this what are
Speaker 1: you watching for.
Speaker 3: I'm really watching to see whether the US or some
Speaker 3: of its closer allies start to be a little bit uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: start to feel like this is getting a little too
Speaker 3: close for comfort. Too many deals are being done. We
Speaker 3: don't really want to allow this happening at a moment
Speaker 3: when tensions between China and the US are so taught.
Speaker 3: So when you think about the G seven nations who
Speaker 3: recently met versus China and Russia and these alternative too
Speaker 3: world orders, we do see this sort of polarization. We
Speaker 3: do this see this divergence, and that inherently does mean
Speaker 3: that what currency you choose is a political decision because.
Speaker 2: Of the world that we're in now.
Speaker 3: So I'm personally interested to see whether we see more
Speaker 3: of this dialogue enter into geopolitical discussions.
Speaker 1: Rebecca, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much for having me, Thanks for listening to
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