1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: We're going to take a walk into the vault. That's right, 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: we're going back to June. This was our Techno Religion 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: episode two. Yes, so we're re airing part two of 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: our Techno Religion for the Masses episodes from last Saturday. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: We reaired part one. This is going to be part two, 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: so if you've already listened to that, you should jump 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: right in and joined the Holy Robot War. Welcome to 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And this is part 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: two in our two part exploration of techno Religion of 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: the convergence of religion and technology. So before you listen 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: to this episode, you should definitely go back and check 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: out our part one episode of Techno Religion. And at 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of the last episode, I told the story 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: about a strange incident taking place at High Rock Tower 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: in Lynn, Massachusetts in the eighteen fifties, where people were 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: trying to build an electro mechanical messiah, and the chief 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: intellectual architect of this event was a guy named John 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: Murray Spear. We now continue the story. So who was 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: John Murray Spear. He's in some ways a much forgotten 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: and overlooked figure from the sort of radical reform movement 25 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: of the early eighteen hundreds. So John m Rey Spear 26 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: was born in Boston in eighteen o four. His father 27 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: was a blacksmith. He had a brother named Charles who 28 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: was a year older than him, and he and his 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: family were members of the Universalist Church. And this was 30 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: a Christian church that was popular in some parts of 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: New England back then. And the Universalist Church rejected the 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: doctrine of hell. That's one of the most notable things 33 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: about them. They rejected the doctrine of hell and eternal 34 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: damn nation, and they preached that the salvation of Christ 35 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: was applied to all people unconditionally. I like that. Yeah. 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: And they also were very often associated with political radical 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: reform causes. They were tied up in abolitionist movements. Yeah. Yeah. 38 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: So there was a somewhat utopian strain of thinking about 39 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: earthly life, not just the afterlife, in the Universalist circles 40 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: back then. So John Murray Spear and his brother Charles 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: grew up in the church of Reverend John Murray, for 42 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: whom John Murray Spear was named. And young John they said, 43 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, he was fond of going to solitary places 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: and sort of thinking deep thoughts. In his early life 45 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: he was apprenticed to a shoemaker, which I had no 46 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: idea about this, But according to the book which is 47 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: my main source on John Murray Spear, which is called 48 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: The Remarkable Life of John Murray Spear by John Benedict Baucher, 49 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: back then shoemakers were particularly radical and bookish group. Have 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: you ever heard this, No, I never have. So the 51 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: ideas shoemakers would have young apprentices, and the youngest apprentices 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: would go out each day and collect a whole bunch 53 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: of pamphlets and newspapers for the day, and then would 54 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: sit there reading them out loud to all the shoemakers 55 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: and older apprentice shoemakers while they did their work for 56 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: the day. And I wonder why this is shoemakers, why 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: shoemaker And of course the shoemakers would listen to the 58 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: stuff and they'd comment on it. And sort of have debates. 59 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: I think maybe this is just completely uninformed. I wonder 60 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: if it's because shoemakers have a job where they're mostly stationary, 61 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: but it's not too loud. That's true, But that's a 62 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: good point because essentially they're listening to podcasts right, right, 63 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: And today a lot of people listen to podcasts like 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: if you're you know, you're working on a spreadsheet, or 65 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: you're doing something at your computer, or you're driving. Right, 66 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: These are all tacit that that are not too loud, 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: and they don't require a level of concentration that is 68 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: so intense that you can't hear a couple of people 69 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: talk about some topic or another. Right. So, John Murray Spear, 70 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: the young John Murray Spear, got some early practice sort 71 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: of dealing with radical ideas and participating in public conversations 72 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: this way through being a shoemaker, and through the influence 73 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: of the Universalist Church, especially eventually through the Universalist luminary 74 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: jose Ah Balu, who's a big name in Universalist thinking 75 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: at this time, and eventually John Murray Spear went on 76 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: to become a Universalist minister himself, and he traveled around 77 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: and ministered in several different UH congregations and did a 78 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: lot of radical reform activism, what we would call activism now. 79 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: So he became deeply involved in the movement to abolish 80 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: the death penalty UH. He and his brother Charles were 81 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: both very much involved with that. He became very much 82 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: involved in women's rights and in the abolition of slavery, 83 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: especially John Mary Spear was very much an abolitionist. He 84 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: he campaigned against slavery constantly, and he was also, I 85 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: would say in a way that was sort of ahead 86 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: of his time, campaigning against what we today know as racism, 87 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: though I think back then a lot of white people 88 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: didn't even have a word for that or know what 89 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: to call it. But he was against prejudice, not just slavery, 90 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: but prejudice against people of of different skin tones. And 91 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: so there's a lot to admire about this guy. I 92 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: think he was. He was active in William Lloyd Garrison's 93 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: abolitionist movements. Actually, there's a great quote from this book 94 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: where William Lloyd Garrison was introducing Spear as a speaker 95 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: at an abolitionist convention and he made this horrible pun 96 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: but it sort of reflects his role. He says although 97 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual. We 98 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: do not object at all to the use of the spear. Now, 99 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: this apparently that he's this like a Miltonian reference here 100 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: as well. Right, Yeah, this is a reference to the 101 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: angel Etheriel in in Paradise Lost, which has a spear 102 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: that essentially exposes the true nature of whatever it touches. 103 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: It's you know, the it's the glasses from they live, okay, um, 104 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: So the Ituriel can touch the spirit to Satan when 105 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: Satan's in the form of a toad and reveal Satan's 106 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: true nature at Satan. And this was a common metaphor 107 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: in the abolitionist movement at the time, and I think 108 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: more generally the radical reform movements of the time, to 109 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: sort of expose the hypocrisy and oppression of the standard 110 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: governments and institutions of the time. So to summarize this 111 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: is a this is a guy who is very concerned 112 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: with the real world, oh totally. But then John Murray 113 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: spirit took a turn. And while still i'd say in 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: a lot of ways being concerned with the real world, 115 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: he took a turn towards the spirit world. He became 116 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: involved with what was known at the time as the 117 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: spiritualist movement. So this for I think the first real 118 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: all piece of evidence here that was in this book 119 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: I read. It was in August eighteen forty seven, John 120 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: Murray Spear penned a review in an anti death penalty 121 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: newspaper that he was co editor of called The Prisoner's Friend, 122 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: and he penned a review of a book about spiritualism, 123 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: which was The Principles of Nature, Her Divine Revelations and 124 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: a Voice to Mankind by Andrew Jackson Davis. And this 125 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: was sort of a work in the emerging field of spiritualism. 126 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: And Davis claimed to be in contact with the spirit 127 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: of Emmanuel Swedenborg and like channeling his statements from beyond 128 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: the grave. And the book alleged that there were these 129 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: various universal laws at play, and it sort of looked 130 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: at religion from a rationalist angle. Actually, this is a 131 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: thing that might seem weird to us today, but at 132 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: the time spiritualism represented what some people believe to be 133 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: a more scientific approach to the supernatural. So you might 134 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: have traditional religions that are based on received tradition, whereas 135 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: spiritualism people sitting around channeling spirits was actually an empirically 136 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: observed phenomenon. Yeah, you might not believe that they were 137 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: having real supernatural experiences, but the scientific thinking of the 138 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: time was, well, at least we're we're looking at real 139 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: phenomena here and we can make judgments on them. Yeah, 140 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: I mean you you look back to the spiritualist movement. 141 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: I mean even in some of the the fringier stuff 142 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: with seance an ectoplasm, right, even if it even though 143 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: ectoplasm was a was a con it was an attempt 144 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: to say, look, here is physical proof, some sort of 145 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: biological manifestation of the spirit. Right. So a lot of 146 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: these people who were into spiritualism were people who were 147 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: deeply desperately yearning for something to cling onto about true 148 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: messages from beyond, real transcendental knowledge. So some Universalist ministries 149 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: at the time were opposed to spiritualism. But in eighteen 150 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: fifty one, John Murray Spear broke ties with the Universalist 151 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: Church after refusing to affirm a simple creed of the 152 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: Church which is basedly pledging allegiance to the guidance of 153 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: the Bible and the person of Jesus, because he's he 154 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: saw that as too constrictive on on sort of freedom 155 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: of thought by that point, and it seems like in 156 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: some way he began to at least secretly train himself 157 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: as a seer and practitioner of mesmeric trances, you know, 158 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: like the mesmerism. So on March thirty one, eighteen fifty two, 159 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: John Murray Spear actually began his career as a spirit medium, 160 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: and this was a career with somewhat mixed reception among 161 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: his social circles. He'd get messages from spirits from beyond 162 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: the grave, sometimes through automatic writing, where he would sit 163 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: there and just start writing whatever came to his mind 164 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: and believing it came from a spirit. Sometimes automatic drawing. 165 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: Some of these drawings sound pretty funny, where he'd like 166 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: draw a human and then like draws spirit guided labels 167 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 1: for all their body parts. Uh. Sometimes through speech, so 168 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: sometimes he might just get up and give an extemporaneous 169 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: beach on the subject he didn't know anything about, believing 170 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: he was channeling messages from someone who did know something 171 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: about it, who was in the spirit world. So in spiritualism, 172 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: like I mean, there's a sense of evolution to this 173 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: as well, because it's the idea that we die our 174 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: spirit passes on and as spirits we continue to evolve, 175 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: and the spirit world is filled with the individuals that 176 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: have have a lot of of of knowledge, a lot 177 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: of wisdom to share with the living. And John Murray 178 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: Spear is essentially opening himself up along these lines as 179 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: just anytime you want to pop in and I am open, 180 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: Mike Night for humanity, just pop into me. And so 181 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: so he's popping in and out of the real John 182 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: Murray Spear and just becoming whoever is coming up to 183 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: the podium to speak. That's right, Yeah, yeah, exactly. So 184 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: John Murray Spear and his daughter Sophronia also Sophronia's I 185 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: love that name. Uh, they sort of became a spirit 186 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: medium team. For a while, they were both channeling messages 187 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: of spirits, and for a while he was getting various 188 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: kinds of messages. Sometimes like vague messages would tell him 189 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: to travel to a specific place and meet people to 190 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: do healing rituals on them. One example was I think 191 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: at some point Benjamin Franklin contacted him via spirits and 192 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: told him to go visit a lady who had been 193 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: struck by lightning and was ailing. And then also, yeah, 194 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: he'd be given these discourses on the nature of reality, 195 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: so Benjamin Franklin would inhabit him and speak through him 196 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: on the nature of electricity, magnetism, the cosmic ether. There 197 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: was also there was a particularly funny story in this 198 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: book where John Mary Spear was in Cleveland channeling the 199 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: spirit of the dead physician and founding father Benjamin Rush. 200 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: And this is a direct quote from his speech in 201 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,239 Speaker 1: speaking of the mortal body, it will be all things considered. 202 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: Why is this to commence that what looking at all 203 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: things may be considered the most or more strictly speaking, 204 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: the more important part, and that is the head in 205 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: the front part, just below the eyes there is what 206 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: is generally called by the common people a knows And 207 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: here it will be perceived that there are two apartments. 208 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: What what does that even mean? Um? But it didn't 209 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: stop there, unfortunately he uh so, or maybe fortunately who knows? 210 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: John Mary spirit didn't just get these discourses on the 211 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: nature of humanity. He eventually started getting messages from a 212 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: congress of spirits, this great sort of enclay of of 213 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: spirits that formed a general assembly in the spirit world. 214 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: Uh And these had sub committees basically that would communicate 215 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: to him, and they had these great names. One was 216 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: the Association of Beneficence. They were also the Associations of Electrizers, Elementizers, 217 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: education Izers, Governmentizers, Healthfulizers, and Agriculturalizers. It makes it makes sense, 218 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the cosmology of the thing, right, 219 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: because if if the living human is just the larval form, 220 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: and the spirit form is kind of the adult, then 221 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: imagine what kind of an adult spirit form someone like 222 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin transforms into. I mean, if you have enough 223 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: of these individuals floating around in the spirit realm, they're 224 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: going to form committees exactly right. So this is where 225 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: things got really interesting because the Association of Electrizers, that's 226 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: not as sinister as it sounds. I think they were 227 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: providing knowledge on the electrification of the world through through technology. 228 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: Contacted Spear and said through Spear that they had some 229 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: plans that needed to be enacted on Earth, and those 230 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: plans were for what they called a new motor, the 231 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: new motor, which is the physical channel of the new 232 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: motive power, and this is the electro mechanical Messiah. We 233 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: began the episode with, all right, at this point, I 234 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: should probably jump in and just give just a brief 235 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: overview of some of the metaphysics that are play in Spears. 236 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: Spiritualism already touched on the we already touched on the 237 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: whole idea of the the human. The physical human is 238 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: being the larval form of a of a spirit form 239 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: that continues to evolve. Right, But Spears metaphysics actually played 240 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: into the supposed mechanics of this machine. Yes um, he 241 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: said that the mind has three functions, the human mind 242 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: three functions. It receives, stores, and transmits spiritual energy. And 243 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: this thought energy is not generated in the mind, so 244 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: that it's it's not coming out of the meat inside 245 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: your head, but rather it's broadcast into our solar system 246 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: by a cosmic God. And then the Sun acts as 247 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: a lens to direct this divine signal down to Earth, 248 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: where it collects, of course in north polar reservoirs, and 249 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: then it dissipates down to the human minds across the Earth. Right, 250 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: So we're sort of like receivers or repeaters of this 251 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: cosmic signal coming from God, the electricity of God's love 252 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: that is channeled through the lens of the Sun. And 253 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: notice all of these technological scientific metaphors that are used 254 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: in the creation of of of of of a cosmology 255 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: for the unseen. Right, So what was this machine actually, Well, 256 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: in mundane terms, it was a table with a bunch 257 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: of pieces attached to it. Yes, if you were introduced 258 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: to this electrical Messiah, I dare say you would be 259 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: disappointed because it is not the large robot Jesus that 260 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: you wanted to be. Right, So Spear would continually get 261 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: new messages from the Spirits, constantly updating the plans for 262 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: the machine, and all of his supporters gathered in this 263 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: place I mentioned earlier, the High Rock Tower in Lynn, Massachusetts, 264 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: and worked for months on this from the summer of 265 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty three and into eighteen fifty four, constantly making 266 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: additions to the machine, changing things based on the spirits specifications. Basically, 267 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: there was like a metal stalk uh in some ways. 268 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: I think it was said to have resembled across a 269 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: cruciform in nature, but it also it had metal parts 270 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: extending out to the sides, and then these dangling balls 271 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: and antennae of various types. So it's sort of like 272 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: a strange metal Christmas tree cross type object on a 273 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: dining room table. Yes, and the descriptions that we were 274 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: reading about it. They were kind of like all over 275 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: the place in terms of the was it supposed to do? 276 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: Like is it? What is it? What is it physically 277 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: supposed to do? What is it sort of metaphorically supposed 278 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: to do? Because it it was described as a sacramental presence, 279 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: a holy force field generator, a gay way to the 280 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: spirit realm uh So, it's kind of like this mechanical 281 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: symbolic body that's going to channel the free energy of 282 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: the universe or you know, God's love that radio radiates 283 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: out from the cosmic center. It's a north pole aligned 284 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: aerial antenna to receive electrical spirit energy. It's um and 285 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: then on top of all this again he's he's open 286 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: mic night for the spirits and these committees that are speaking. 287 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: So when he drops back into just good old John Boy, 288 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: he'll he's kind of ambivalent about it at times. He's 289 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of like, Oh, I don't know anything about technology. 290 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: Is that what those guys are telling you? Okay, so 291 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: that sounds all right, But he had some very enthusiastic 292 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: supporters who were there to tell him, no, John, it's great, 293 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: we're working on it. But to compound matters. Further, it 294 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: wasn't simply going to be a sort of like a 295 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: repeater or receiver, collector and retransmitter of God's electrical psychic energy. 296 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: It was also going to be a perpetual motion machine. Yes, 297 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: something that uh, apparently the science at the time believed 298 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: could not exist. That's still pretty much considered to be, right, 299 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: there's no such thing as perpetual motion machine. Motion always 300 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: sort of gets lost to entropy, transformed into heat. But 301 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: they wanted to create a perpetual motion machine or quote 302 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: a self moving machine, right, self moving in the same 303 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: way that that God was perceived as being self moving, 304 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: and potentially in the same sense that a spirit with 305 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: free will is considered to be a self moving soul 306 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: by some interpretations. Right. So they want this piece of technology, 307 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: this new motor, to be not just an effect but 308 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: also a cause in itself, and in that way it 309 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: would be kind of like creating a new man or 310 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: a new God. Yes, but also in it's kind of 311 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: complicated because it's like, in a sense it's it's also 312 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: just about the idea of it should inspire everyone, right, right, 313 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: But then they also you do expect the thing to 314 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: do something into work right, so that they clearly thought 315 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: that it would have some major significance in transforming the world, 316 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: in ushering in some kind of s schatological event. They 317 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: thought of it as as a sort of like transition 318 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: to the end times, though not necessarily the end times 319 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: in terms of the apocalyptic imagery we often think of, 320 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: or anything negative. They thought of it as like the 321 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: new Age, you know, the new heavens and the new Earth. 322 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: Everything changed, transformed, the apotheosis, things brought up out of 323 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: mundane existence into the new realm of life. And kind 324 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: of a sense too that it it is that spear 325 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: that we're talking about earlier, that angelic sphere that reveals truth. 326 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: But the truth that it would supposedly reveal would be 327 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: the the importance, the power of spiritualism and the and 328 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: the reality of this uh, this these met metaphysics that 329 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: John has been revealing to HISS followers. Yeah, now the 330 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: story doesn't in there. Actually, I very much recommend this book. 331 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier the remarkable life of John Murray, spear 332 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: agitator for the Spirit Land. Because they continued to try 333 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: experiments to get this thing to work. Unfortunately, it did 334 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: not usher in this eschatological event um, but that they 335 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: tried to imbue it with personal magnetism to get it 336 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: to turn on, so that they had this belief sort 337 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: of tied to mesmerism and things, that people had these 338 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: sort of spirit essences, and they'd have certain pairs of 339 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: people of particular types try to transmit their personal or 340 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: psychic energy to the machine to get it to animate 341 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: and come to life. They gave it a ritual birthing 342 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: ceremony with a human mother that did not go well 343 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,239 Speaker 1: with some of the town's folk, who found that a 344 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: moral outrage and then uh, sort of took up arms 345 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: against the machine. Uh. There's a whole story of sort 346 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: of how this machine was received, but it also was 347 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: received sort of as an embarrassment. And I think this 348 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons John Murray Spear is not 349 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: as well remembered in history as he might have been, 350 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of the other radical reformers 351 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: of the time, we're like, uh, I don't know how 352 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: much we want to be associated with Mr Spear, Right, Yeah, 353 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: I mean I can define definitely see it because ultimately 354 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: the thing did not work. Yeah, the thing did not 355 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: It didn't meet any of the more elaborate other worldly 356 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: expectations for the thing, and it didn't. It didn't even 357 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: really need like the bare threshold required to impress the 358 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: people who poured their lives into it. Sure, But another 359 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: thing that I think is worth mentioning is that this 360 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: kind of thinking isn't quite as obscure as it would 361 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: seem to us, because there were thoughts back in the 362 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: nineteenth century about the perhaps borderline supernatural or psychic psychically 363 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: significant power of electricity. And that's true. Um yeah, back 364 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, uh it, electricity had a noble, 365 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: if not a divine reputation, to the extent that members 366 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: of the scientific community protested the idea of the electric 367 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: chair as a degradation of both electricity and the scientific 368 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: breakthroughs that made electrocuting a criminal possible. So there was 369 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: sort of like a new a G paradigm laid on 370 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: top of the idea of electrical technology. On that note, 371 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, 372 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: we are going to move forward in time and discuss 373 00:21:51,160 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: some more um convergences of technology and religion. All Right, 374 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: we're back. We're discussing religion now and in the age 375 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: of science, but also in the age of science fiction, 376 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: in the age of space, and in the age of UFOs. Right, 377 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: so this has got to be one of the most 378 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: obvious places that religion could go when it's changed by technology. 379 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: Aliens exactly, right, I mean, you've got to believe because 380 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: in so many ways, I can't remember who I heard 381 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: make this point, but but it's something I heard someone 382 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: say a long time ago, which was the idea that 383 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: if you explained our idea of what aliens are to 384 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: ancient people's, they wouldn't even really make a distinction between 385 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: what we're talking about when we say aliens and their 386 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: concepts of God's We have this distinction between okay, natural 387 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: aliens that's you know, standard natural phenomenon and supernatural entities, 388 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: but they didn't necessarily make that distinction that aliens to 389 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: them would be Yeah, okay, so they they're very powerful 390 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: beings from a place up above, and they can travel 391 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: down to Earth if they want, and you know, we're 392 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: powerless to oppose them. Yeah. Essentially, an alien is a 393 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: supernatural entity that is described and wrapped up in in 394 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: in in the keepings of science, in the traditions of science. 395 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: So that it it makes at least UH, it makes 396 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: some level of scientific sense instead of non scientific. And 397 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: if you look back through time, like any anytime someone 398 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: is dealt with hallucinations, anytime someone has dealt with sleep 399 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: paralysis or some other encounter. You know, what was once 400 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: UH an encounter with fairies in the woods, which what 401 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: was once an assault by demons or or an encounter 402 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: with ghosts UH increasingly become became in the past few 403 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: decades an encounter with aliens or UFOs, right, because that's 404 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: the cultural script that we can fall back on for 405 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: the unexplained, and that essentially the supernatural perfectly. Yeah, aliens 406 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: have become the new otherworldly organism them and this has 407 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: translated into actual religious movements. The main one I want 408 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: to talk about is Raylianism. Yes, so had you heard 409 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: anything much about Ralianism before this? I had never done 410 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: a deep dive into Raylianism, But of course you the 411 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 1: end up. They end up coming up anytime you look 412 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: in at cloning in particular, and then you know they 413 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: pop up here and there with their various sort of 414 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: eye catching protests and whatnot. Yes, they are fond of 415 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: like UH demonstrations that involve nudity, but also like inflatable 416 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: flying saucers and stuff like that sometimes. But okay, so 417 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: what are they so? Raylianism or Realism or the International 418 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: Raylian Movement was founded in nineteen seventy three or seventy four. 419 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: I think I've seen seventy four, but could be seventy 420 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: three by its chief profit Riyal or rail Rayal born 421 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: Claude Vorrilon, and Vorlon introduces his own life in his 422 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: book by saying, ever since I was nine years old, 423 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: I've had but one passion, motor racing. So, Harry, you've 424 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: got your your technological You're in already. But the Raelians 425 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: believe in a branch of intelligent design, the idea that 426 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: human life was created. It didn't, you know, evolve from 427 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: innerent matter, but that it was created in a conscious 428 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: act of creation. But they believe in the kind of 429 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: intelligent design that most intelligent design advocates like to skip over, 430 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: which is the notion that life was engineered not by 431 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: supernatural god or gods, but by a race of extraterrestrial scientists. Right, 432 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: They're called the Eloheim. So what does this word mean? 433 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: You might have heard it before, Eloheim is a word 434 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: that appears in the Hebrew Bible, and in a literal sense, 435 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: it's the Hebrew plural word for gods or deities, so 436 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: it can be used to refer to groups of lesser 437 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: supernatural entities like angels or pagan gods. Those are all eloheim, 438 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: but it can also be translated to refer to the 439 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: singular out of Israel. So one of the names of 440 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: God used in the Hebrew Bible is Eloheim, and in 441 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: English translations that's usually the word God with the capital G. 442 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: The root of Eloheim seems to be l, which is 443 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: an older Canaanite word, and that was l was the 444 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: chief god of the Canaanite pantheon, but also a generic 445 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: word just meaning God like a god, which also appears 446 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: in the Bible as a title for God, though less often. 447 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: So how did all this come together? What started this event? Well, 448 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: Ryle tells the story in in his own book, So 449 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: he says, in nineteen seventy three, he was out motoring, 450 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, because he has a passion for motor racing 451 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: out in France, so to speak, and he stopped at 452 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: a volcano that was overlooking Claremont Ferrand in central southern France, 453 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: and he parked his car and got out to sort 454 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: of like walk and jog around the volcanic crater, and 455 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: there he saw an aerial vehicle coming toward him, and 456 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: at first, he says, he thought it was a helicopter, 457 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: but then he noticed it was completely silent, and then 458 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: he realized it was a flying saucer. He says it 459 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: was about seven meters in diameter two point five meters 460 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: in height, so, you know, kind of modest as far 461 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: as flying saucers go. And a stairway descends out of 462 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: the bottom of it, and a being comes out to 463 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: meet him, and he says, at first he thought it 464 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: was a child because it was only four ft tall. 465 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: He says, his eyes were slightly almond shaped, his hair 466 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: was black and long, and he had a small black beard. 467 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: I like that there's facial hair with these aliens so 468 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: so often there they don't get to rock the facial 469 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: hair exactly. Yeah, they're they're way too smooth. Usually it's 470 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: kind of strange. But anyway, that this being proceeded to 471 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: have a conversation with Rilon, informing him that he had 472 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 1: visited Earth many times before and that he had chosen 473 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: Rillon specifically to speak to on that day, and it 474 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: told him that the alien told him to come back 475 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: the next day to bring his Bible and something to 476 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: take notes with, and so then it instructed him on 477 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: many truths about the origins of life on Earth and 478 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: the real meanings of stories in the Bible. And then 479 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: of course Vorrillon later under the name ril published books 480 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: on the subject and founded the Riley and or Rileyan movement. 481 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: So the main basic idea is that life on Earth 482 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: was created by a group of extraterrestrial scientists and then 483 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: a laboratory, yes, and that we were created in the 484 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: image of those scientists. And so their beliefs in general 485 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: have a lot in common with the various like ancient 486 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: astronauts theories. If you ever watched any of those TV 487 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: shows where it's like, what happened? How do they build 488 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: the pyramids? Aliens? Yeah, I mean, basically it comes down 489 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: to the fact that you can take any ancient text 490 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: that deals with supernatural entities interacting with humanity, and you 491 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: can easily reread, reinterpret any of them as humans dealing 492 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 1: with extraterrestrials. And it's it's often a really you know, 493 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: far unnaginative exercise because it turns everything in its head, 494 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: it puts things in a modern perspective, and and and 495 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, you know, ultimately we're talking about the exact 496 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: same scenario. So that kind of of reinterpretation you just 497 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: see throughout ancient astronaut thinking, right. So yeah, Ryal explains 498 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: in in his book Intelligent Design, Message from the Designers 499 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: how these beings explained to him that like the narrative 500 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: traditions of Judaism and Christianity, are all actually misrememberings or 501 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: misinterpretations of ancient interactions with these extraterrestrial creatures, the Eloheam 502 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: and their technology. I'm going to pick my favorite example 503 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: the site, which is this is a section from the 504 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: book about how the Ark of the Covenant is actually 505 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: a nuclear powered space radio. Makes perfect sense to me. 506 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: So he says, telepathy is a means of communication between 507 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: the creators and human beings, was only possible when the 508 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: Eloheam were in proximity to the Earth. When they were 509 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: on their distant planet or elsewhere, they could not communicate 510 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: in this way. For this reason, they set up a 511 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: transmitter receiver which was transported in the Ark of God, 512 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: an apparatus containing its own atomic powered cell. This is 513 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: why in the First Book of Samuel, chapters five and six, 514 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: when the Philistines stole the arc, their idle dagon lay 515 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: face down on the ground nearby as a result of 516 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: an electrical discharge caused by their clumsy mishandling of it. 517 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: They also suffered radiation burns from the dangerous radioactive materials. 518 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: And he quotes First Samuel five six and smote them 519 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: with em rods. That worried emmerrods, I think is generally 520 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: interpreted to mean some kind of like hemorrhoid or tumor. 521 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: Uh And so this is I don't know, I'd say 522 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: that's a pretty clever interpretation of that. I mean, I 523 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: I kind of doubt many biblical scholars would give much 524 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: credence to it. But uh no, I think that's a 525 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: that's a wonderful uh you know, overlay of science and 526 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: science fiction over you know, a magical object from from 527 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: from a from an older time. I mean, you see 528 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: this even outside of Christian and Hebraic tradition, with people 529 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: interpreting some of the like super weapons that the gods 530 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: give characters in the Hindu epic, the Mahabarata where they 531 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: have like essentially you know, crazy powerful god weapons that 532 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: they utilize, and some uh, some people like to look 533 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: back at those and say, oh, well, these were atomic weapons, 534 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: these were laser weapons, these were flying machines. And of 535 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: course the Aralians don't just have technological explanations for the past. 536 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: They also are a thoroughly technological religion in terms of 537 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: their ethic for the future, like what they say should 538 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: be happening in society. Just one example is that the 539 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: Ralians tend to be very in favor of human cloning. 540 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,239 Speaker 1: That's not something that's true of most religions as far 541 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: as yeah, they alter, they embrace and and advocate human 542 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: cloning as a as a necessary technology for the advancement 543 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: of the species. Yeah. And in fact, in two thousand two, 544 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: the Ralians claim to have cloned a human being. Yes, yeah, 545 00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: this is probably where a lot of people have her 546 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: of the Raliance before. From this claim, there was a 547 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: media storm. More precisely, not so much that the Ralians 548 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: claimed to have cloned a human being, but they were 549 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: involved in the publicity of this event. So a doctor 550 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: Bridget Boyselier, I hope I'm saying that right, It was 551 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: a Raelian bishop, and she claimed that her company, an 552 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: organization called Clone Aid not to be confused with clonas 553 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: Uh and not to be confused with Clone Aid. The 554 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: Clone Benefit Concert, which was a company originally founded in 555 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: an earlier incarnation by Royal himself, had successfully cloned an 556 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: American woman and produced a healthy baby clone named Eve. 557 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: And media reports at the time were really skeptical, and 558 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, no real evidence that 559 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: this is true has ever surfaced, So a lot of 560 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: people thought it was just a publicity stunt for the church, 561 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: but they maintained that they had successfully been the first 562 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: to to clone a healthy human baby. And whatever you 563 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: think of that story, the Ralians typically remain very supportive 564 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: of human cloning research. Yeah, and they continue to claim 565 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: to have really advanced cloning technology, if not at their 566 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: disposal then like within grasp right, like they I read that, 567 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: they claim that their scientists are close to being able 568 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: to transfer someone's mind into a new body, essentially the 569 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: kind of resleaving of human consciousness that one encounters and say, 570 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: Richard K. Morgan science fiction, So you could live forever 571 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: because here you've cloned the body and then boop, just 572 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: transfer your your mind into the new body and flush 573 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: the old one. Right. Well, this is always a big 574 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: problem we've talked about when we've talked about trans humanist 575 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: ideas on the other podcast, I work on forward thinking 576 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: that this is always something that occurs to me. People 577 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: seem to be discussing the idea of digital immortality without 578 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: answering the question of like, Okay, maybe you could make 579 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: a copy of your brain, of your memories or something 580 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: inside a computer, but how do you become that computer? 581 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: How do you transfer your experience to that machine? Yeah, 582 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: it gets existentially mucky really fast, because you end up 583 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: just coming against the same old problem that we don't 584 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: really have a good graph on what human consciousness is. 585 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: We have this, we run into this whole blind brain 586 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: scenario where we can't really perceive what's going on. It 587 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: seems to me the much easier thing would be it's 588 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: like you make a copy of yourself and then you 589 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: die and then there's a copy of you, Yeah, which 590 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: is terrifying and it's but but also you know, that's 591 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's also yeah, a form of immortality 592 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: that that lines up with our scientific understanding of how 593 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: we work. Yeah, I say, with the reorganism, you do 594 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: get this overall sense of science and futurism as articles 595 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: of the faith. Um. And it's you know, it's it's 596 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: easy to discuss a faithful of UFOs cloning and weird 597 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: sexuality is ridiculous, Uh, even as we cling to these 598 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: ancient models and traditions that again involved a Joel's coming 599 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: down from above, bodily resurrection, physical immortality, and also lots 600 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: of weird sexuality as well. Well, I feel like that's 601 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: that ties into that that's sort of like abhorrence of 602 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: the new thing that I was talking about earlier, you know, 603 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: the fact that that we find the presence of too 604 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: much technology and our religious rights and in our religious 605 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: holy places as kind of like somehow vaguely blasphemous or 606 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: crass or or it just doesn't feel right. And I 607 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: can totally see this parallel. When you look at the 608 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: beliefs of the Rillyans, I see a whole lot of 609 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: parallels with a lot of ancient religions. And I wonder 610 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: if one of the only major differences in my attitude 611 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: towards it is just that it's new. Yeah, you see 612 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: that all. I mean, even as we were talking about it, 613 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: we're kind of having fun with the concept. But with 614 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: some of the concepts they were, you know, they bring 615 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: up such as, I mean, I love the idea that 616 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: I think Satan was Arablian, not Arablian. Satan was el 617 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: him from the home planet. It was opposed to creating 618 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: new life. And then Lucifer is another one that is 619 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: evolved in the the generation of life here on Earth 620 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: and also had a role in creating the dinosaurs. Like 621 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: all that, I mean, you can't help but laugh because 622 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: it's it's also kind of hysterical in its own way. 623 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: But it's not really that different from anything that exists 624 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: in any ancient religion. It's just we're more willing to 625 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: buy into some weird, outlandish story that was written down 626 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: by some dude if that dude lived, you know, five 627 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: hundred years ago rather than fifty years ago. Right, we 628 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: just naturally assigned more authority to the ancient regime. Now, 629 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: in discussing religion and technology in the modern day, we 630 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: cannot help but discuss the Church of Scientology a little bit. Right, Well, 631 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this is another religion not just of the 632 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: current technological age, but it does have technology infused all 633 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: throughout its practices. Yea. So one of the things that 634 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: would be pretty obvious is the E meter, and we 635 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: can come back to that in a minute. But the 636 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: first thing that actually made me think of scientology as 637 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: a technological religion, or at least something that has technology 638 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: deeply embedded in its ideology is literally the use of 639 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: the word technology. See, I've noticed in interviews, like televised 640 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: interviews and things that I've seen with some representatives of 641 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology that they use the word technology 642 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: when what they're talking about are the beliefs and practices 643 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: of Scientology. Um, so that kind of doesn't jive with 644 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: how we usually use the word technology. Like I was saying, 645 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: it's usually a machine, right, A technology is usually a mechanism, 646 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: and they're talking about it more as in like how 647 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: a doctrine can be a technology, yeah, or even you 648 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: can think of it in terms, I guess of a blueprint, Right, 649 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: I have a blueprint for a steam engine. Sure, steam 650 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: engine is a technology, but also the blueprint is is 651 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: a technology in itself because it tells you how did 652 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: the process by which you create this thing? And that's 653 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: ultimately what they're they're offering their followers, right a a 654 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: blueprint to become this better engine totally. Yeah, so I 655 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: can see it like that. It is in in the 656 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: dictionary definition since the technology perhaps like it is a 657 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: at least an application of what they believe to be 658 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: scientific knowledge to a practical purpose. Yeah. So you see 659 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: mention of the dionetic spiritual healing technology of study technology, 660 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: and they also have their Religious Technology Center which aims 661 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: to quote protect the public from a misapplication of the 662 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: technology and to see that the religious technologies of dionetics 663 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: and scientology remain in proper hands and are properly ministered. 664 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: So it's like the f d A of the technologies 665 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: of Scientology. Yeah, you know, in terms of or certainly 666 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: the uh the division of Scientology concerned with with maintaining 667 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: those copyrights and those patents. Sure. Yeah. But then of 668 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: course there is actually within Scientology in their actual practices 669 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: a device that you've probably heard of of, the E meter. 670 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: It's an electrical device that they use in what is 671 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: called auditing. Yeah, I mean it's very much. I mean 672 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: I would be tempted to make a comparison between the 673 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: role of the E meter with say, the role of 674 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: a of a chalice in in a Roman Catholic tradition, 675 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: right that you need for the sacred right of a communion. Uh. 676 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: The use of the E meter uh in auditing is 677 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: essentially a sacred right. Okay. So what is auditing and 678 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: what does the E meter actually do? Yeah, the E 679 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: meter is a real thing, and its origins uh lay 680 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: outside of scientology. Actually, it is an electro psychometer. Come on, Robert, 681 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: it's a psychometer. Okay, electro psychometer if you will. Uh, 682 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: you know the meto the motto. And this is a 683 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: device for displaying and or recording the electrodermal activity or 684 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: the e d A of a human being. It's actually 685 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: one of the factors covered in a standard polygraph test 686 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: as well as in scientific studies regarding human emotions. Again, 687 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: the E meter is not a technology that exists solely 688 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: within the world of scientology. It's one of the components 689 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: of a polygraph. But science scientologists have been using it 690 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 1: as an auditing tool. Um, and they have their own 691 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: patents for their own emeter devices that they continue to 692 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: to update. UM. Now, what is auditing. That's an entire 693 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: that's an entire conversation in and of itself. But essentially, 694 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: you have an auditor that is a meeting with a 695 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: member of the faith and they are hooking them up 696 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: to the E meter to record these uh these reactions 697 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: in the dermis, basically their emotional reaction to stimuli, words, phrases, etcetera. 698 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: And the Church of Scientology itself describes auditing UH as this. 699 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: They say the goal of auditing is to restore being, 700 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: this and ability, and this is accomplished by one helping 701 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: individuals rid themselves of any spiritual disabilities and to increasing 702 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: spiritual abilities. Yeah, this is interesting. I mean it seems 703 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: to me that I certainly, not being all that familiar 704 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: with the practice, can't say exactly how it's used, but 705 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: it seems like a rough analogy too, if you were 706 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: to hook yourself up to a polygraph test when you 707 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: go in for a Catholic confession. Yeah, that's kind of 708 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: the vibe I I'm getting off of it as as well, 709 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 1: that it's you know, it's it's about this individual meeting 710 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: with you too to audit you, to to to to 711 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: discuss and and figure out your sort of emotional your 712 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: psychic state right, and to do that, you know, they'll 713 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: throughout some words and see if those words trouble you 714 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: or you know what kind of an emotional resonance they 715 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: create in your body. And so in this we we 716 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: have a wonderful example of a a modern religion that 717 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 1: is using modern technology, that has adapted modern technology for 718 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: its sacred rights and observances. Now, again, scientology is a 719 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: subject unto itself, and maybe when we should come back 720 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: to in a future episode, but we mainly just wanted 721 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: to focus on the the use of the E meter here. Yeah, 722 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: and also I think the general attitude towards the idea 723 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: of technology and what role it plays in the religion, 724 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: because they're the word seems to be held up in 725 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: a positive light. It's it's something that's reacting against this 726 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: thing we've been talking about, like the profanity of technology, 727 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: technology being this kind of like new fangled, unbeautiful thing 728 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: that that should be kept out of the sacred sphere 729 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 1: of religion. These are ideologies that are actually really about 730 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: intentionally bringing technology in. It's not incidental, it's not intruding 731 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: on the religion. It's a core part of it. And 732 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 1: I think this should finally bring us to the idea 733 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: of the singularity Ah, yes, it always comes back to 734 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: the singularity, right. Well, I mean this is a popular 735 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: topic among weirdos like US and the singularity. If I'm 736 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: sure you've probably heard of it before, but just in 737 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,439 Speaker 1: case you haven't, what's the general idea of the singularity. 738 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the the purpose of the new motor. 739 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: It's somewhat egg but but it's a general point in 740 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: human evolution where we sort of achieve a level of 741 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: technological sophistication, where suddenly technology advances so rapidly that we 742 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: cannot keep up with it that it revolutionizes and changes 743 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: human nature. A lot of times, it's associated with the 744 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: sort of a moment of transition to being transhumanist, like 745 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: where human biology merges with technology and you get this 746 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,320 Speaker 1: new breed of humanity that's like cyborg basically, that's ultimately 747 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: uplifted and transformed to a status of an almost godlike 748 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: power by their technology. Yeah, kind of a point where 749 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: you stop talking about, oh, this is human human race 750 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: and they have technology, but rather the two or one 751 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: or perhaps even the biological aspect of the species is 752 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: secondary to the technological presence. Right, So, one of the 753 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: big names in singularity thinking would be raker as while 754 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: he's someone who has been very positive about this idea, 755 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: who has had a lot of interesting and good things 756 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: to say about it. Uh. He sort of popularized the 757 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 1: notion of some of these transhumanist notions in a book 758 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: called The Age of Spiritual Machines, and then also in 759 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: a book called The Singularity Is Near and I think curs. 760 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: While and at least some supporters of the idea of 761 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: the singularity would disavow the idea that singularity thinking is 762 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: religious in nature, despite the fact that the phrase spiritual machines. 763 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: That's that's your argument. But there are some critics and 764 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: observers who do like to attribute sort of aspects of 765 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: being a religion to singularity thinking. And one of those 766 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,240 Speaker 1: is the is the interesting author and technologist Jarren Lanier. 767 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: So Jarren Lanier for many years has been a big 768 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: name in sort of technology circles. He's known as sort 769 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: of like the guy behind virtual reality, and he's often 770 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: described as sort of a genius poly and just a 771 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: big thinker. You know. He has lots of big ideas 772 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: about the future and and how we should handle it. 773 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: And he's for a long time been a critic of 774 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: singularity thinking, and a lot of these critics of singularity 775 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 1: thinking point out that there are uncomfortably religious seeming aspects 776 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: of thinking that we're entering an age where artificial intelligence 777 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: and technology is going to enter this transcendental level. I mean, 778 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: if you think about it, the idea of transforming humans 779 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: into a higher state of existence is, you know, in 780 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, kind of like the end times 781 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: beliefs of many religions. You might think about it as 782 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: a parallel to sort of like the rapture and evangelical 783 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: Christianity or something where people are sort of uplifted to 784 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: a higher state of existence into like a newer, better 785 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: flesh kind of a situation. Yeah, and also you could 786 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: think about it as in some ways treating technology truly 787 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,800 Speaker 1: like a god. That it is, on one hand, something 788 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: that we're creating, but on the other hand, it is 789 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: a force that is kind of unstoppable and at some 790 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: point beyond our comprehension that comes in and imposes its 791 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: will on us. Its will is hopefully benevolent. But you 792 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,919 Speaker 1: can get opposing viewpoints about that from many other people 793 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: who are worried about the the advances in artificial intelligence 794 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: and what they'll mean for human life. But yeah, I 795 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: think that's an interesting critique in an interesting way of 796 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: looking at at singularitarianism as it might be. Is this 797 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: a religion? And if so, what does it mean for 798 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 1: all the people, especially all the people who are power 799 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,879 Speaker 1: players in Silicon Valley who are subscribers to this notion. Yeah, 800 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: because at hard it's it's ultimately about human technology, uh, 801 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: becoming godlike, and then even by extension, the possibility that 802 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: we create artificial intelligence that is essentially God. And then 803 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: of course the question is what kind of God if 804 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,720 Speaker 1: we create it? Because if we look at the models 805 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: of of the of the divine that we see in 806 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: our myths and uh religions, they tend to you know, 807 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: sometimes they're rather benevolent, but a lot of times they're 808 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: moody and petty and destructive and uh and not always 809 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,720 Speaker 1: a friend to the little man. Right, Well, very often 810 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,359 Speaker 1: they're selectively benevolent. Right. They might be benevolent to one 811 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 1: group and malevolent to another. Yeah, And and they're not 812 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: opposed to having sex with us in the form of 813 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: various animals. So yeah, we have to think about that. Well, 814 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: we really have to hope that our that our robot 815 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: overlords do not take the Greek myths their inspiration. The Greeks. 816 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: The Greek gods tend to be about the worst because 817 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,919 Speaker 1: there they tend to be the pettiest and the most 818 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: carnal I find. But but yeah, do we end up 819 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: looking at a benevolent vision of this or a more 820 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: diabolical one? I tend to I tend to follow the 821 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: the the E. N. M. Banks culture UH series approach, 822 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: where you have kind of a benevolent to AI force. 823 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: It becomes in a way the guardians of humanity, but 824 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,839 Speaker 1: also the the ruling power of humanity. Yeah, I've on 825 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: my other podcast a lot of Hymdenhut about you know what, 826 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: what I really think about the idea of transcendental artificial 827 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: intelligence and trans humanism and stuff. In the end, I 828 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: guess I've read enough persuasive stuff in both ways that 829 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: I can't really say what I think it would truly 830 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,359 Speaker 1: be like in reality, though I can certainly see why 831 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 1: it would take on a spiritual dimension in the minds 832 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: of many people. Yeah, I always I always come back 833 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: to There's one quote in uh Gibson's neurom Answer in 834 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: which someone comments that you know for ages. We believed 835 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: in making packs with devils and demons, and it was 836 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: impossible until we made it possible through technology in the 837 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: creation of ais that you can enter into bargains with it, 838 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: as occurs in the book. And uh. And that's that's 839 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: kind of part and partial to some of the singularity ideas, 840 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: where it's at least when we think of them in 841 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 1: terms of religion, that technology be to make possible things 842 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,560 Speaker 1: that were previously purely supernatural and from a scientific perspective 843 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: non existent, such as the afterlife. Because we've talked about, 844 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, the possibilities of digitizing human consciousness and the 845 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,280 Speaker 1: human experience and placing that digital consciousness within a virtual world, 846 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: it becomes conceivable to have a virtual heaven, of virtual hell, 847 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: of virtual purgatory in which to file away your your 848 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: the minds of believers after their bodily death. Sure well, 849 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: I mean definitely, people like rakerswill have envisioned a digital 850 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: immortality or some form of technologically enabled immortality. And if 851 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 1: you actually could achieve that, I'm skeptical of that, especially 852 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: because of like, how could you even be sure with 853 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: the consciousness transfer problem, how could you ever know that 854 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,879 Speaker 1: that technology was successful, you know what I mean? Like 855 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: to say, you create a computer that claims to be 856 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,720 Speaker 1: a copy of somebody, and then that person's body dies 857 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: and uh and their their computer copy continues to live 858 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: on saying oh, yes, I had continuous consciousness. How do 859 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,880 Speaker 1: you know if that's true? Yeah? And then and then 860 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: you get into a whole you know, sort of black 861 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,200 Speaker 1: mirror area of trying to figure out how you're supposed 862 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,399 Speaker 1: to treat this thing. Um, you know, is if it's 863 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: if it's not just completely happy all the time, then 864 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: are you? I mean, what kind of monstrous thing have 865 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,840 Speaker 1: you done? Here? And then again, so we're imagining digital 866 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 1: immortality as being a sort of embodiment of heaven. But 867 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: what if you didn't like your digital immortality. What if 868 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: you didn't like your digital immortality and then you were 869 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,799 Speaker 1: unable to die, you'd be like the you know, sort 870 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,719 Speaker 1: of the immortal wanderer from various myths, right where you 871 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 1: just sort of roaming across the digital countryside, hoping that 872 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: one day the divine forces, the ai s or what 873 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: have you, will will give you the gift of death 874 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,439 Speaker 1: so you can just have sweet oblivion. Man, So that 875 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,799 Speaker 1: William Gibson quote you had is still sticking with me. 876 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting. Yeah. I keep going back 877 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: to the uh, like we have to invent the devil 878 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: before we could sell our soul to him. Yeah, and UH, 879 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, the virtual afterlife ideas come up in a 880 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: number of short stories. I've read that the first example 881 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 1: was supposedly, uh, American sci fi writer Frederick Pole in 882 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 1: a short story titled The Tunnel under the World from 883 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: fifty five. I was the first to really deal with this, 884 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: but one that I loved from a few years back. 885 00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: It was one of the culture novels by Ian and Banks. 886 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,400 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier his novel Surface Detail, which deals in 887 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: large part with a a virtual war over the existence 888 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: of virtual hells. So there are various planets, various species, 889 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,240 Speaker 1: and people's that can that have faiths that maintain virtual 890 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: hells for believers that we're judged to be morally failing, 891 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: and so they're you know, digital realms of torment and horror. 892 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,480 Speaker 1: And you have lived plenty of living individuals and some 893 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: digital individuals who say that is completely awful. You should 894 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: not have that in the same way that you have 895 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,440 Speaker 1: plenty of of living people today. Is say that theology 896 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 1: of hell itself is kind of a horrible idea and 897 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,839 Speaker 1: should be you know, we should weigh like we should 898 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,319 Speaker 1: lay waste to that as well. And so in this 899 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: book by Banks, this virtual war over their existence eventually 900 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,880 Speaker 1: spills out into an actual real war in the universe 901 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 1: in very, very fascinating ways. That is a truly fascinating idea. 902 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: I'd like to read that book now. It's good. I 903 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: highly recommend uh the works of the late uh I N. M. Banks. Good, 904 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,160 Speaker 1: great stuff, great science fiction that's you know, concerned with 905 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: where technology is taking us, but also you know, some 906 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 1: of the the philosophical existential problems of the current times. Alright, 907 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 1: So there you have it, Uh, the end of our 908 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:43,400 Speaker 1: two parter on techno religion, the convergence of technology and religion, 909 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 1: from the earliest prayer wheels to the distant possibility of 910 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,759 Speaker 1: a singularity birth God. This has been a wild ride. 911 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me on for this forever. Hey, Hey, 912 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for joining me. Hey. In the meantime, 913 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: you want to check out more episodes of Stuff to 914 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, head on over to stuff to Blow 915 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,800 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where you'll find all the 916 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,759 Speaker 1: podcast episodes, you'll find videos who find blog posts, links 917 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: out to social media accounts like our Facebook and our Twitter, 918 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 1: and our tumbler and Hey. On the landing pages for 919 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 1: these two episodes, you'll find links out to some of 920 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 1: the materials we've discussed here, such as that book The 921 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: Remarkable Life of John Murray Spear. If you want to 922 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,080 Speaker 1: get in touch with us about any strange stories you've 923 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: had about the interaction of technology and religion, how you 924 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: use technology and your religious practices, or how you've seen 925 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,319 Speaker 1: people use it in their's right to us that blow 926 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 1: the mind. At how stuff works dot com for more 927 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,880 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 928 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:46,239 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com.