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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Legal eagles across the world

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Speaker 1: thought it would never happen, but in the last days,

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Speaker 1: finally arrest in the case of the Delphi double murders

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Speaker 1: of Abbey and Libby, two precious girls now angels. But

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Speaker 1: who would have predicted that? All the while the killer

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Speaker 1: was right under everybody's knows, literally in the center of town.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I see, Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and

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Speaker 1: Serious one eleven. First of all, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at w THR. We know Richard Alan worked

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Speaker 1: as a licensed pharmacy tech at this CVS here in Delphi,

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Speaker 1: but many continue to ask and wonder how a man

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Speaker 1: now charged with two counts of murder managed to stay

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Speaker 1: under the radar in a town of about three thousand people.

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Speaker 1: Those who live in Delphi are still trying to cope

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Speaker 1: with news that Richard Allen is the man police say

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Speaker 1: murdered Abby Williams and Libby German. I mean the da

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Speaker 1: after Halloween, but it's a little eerie and tense in

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Speaker 1: downtown Delphi on the Square, businesses like the Office Tavern

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Speaker 1: put up a new sign on their door reading no

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Speaker 1: media allowed. They weren't the only ones. Country Hair also

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Speaker 1: had a sign off camera. One business owner to thirteen News,

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Speaker 1: the community is still in shock, even the girl's families

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Speaker 1: grappling with the reality that their girls and murderer, brutal murderer. Remember,

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Speaker 1: according to one released Affi David, there were copious amounts

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Speaker 1: of blood at the same mini, speculating these two little girls,

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Speaker 1: Libyan Abbey had their throats slit. We don't know that yet,

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Speaker 1: but that is the conjecture of experts. They are grappling

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Speaker 1: with the reality that the killer was right under their nose.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen Fox fifty nine. They were also facing

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Speaker 1: a harsh reality that Richard Allen was living amongst them

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Speaker 1: the whole time. I don't know the gentleman personally at all,

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Speaker 1: you know, so I probably seen him, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a small county, you know, but definitely don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't know any One of the most chilling revelations was

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Speaker 1: that Becky said Alan, who worked at a local CBS,

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Speaker 1: had printed off pictures for the girls's funeral, leaving the

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Speaker 1: family to wonder how did nobody know? When the family

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Speaker 1: says we didn't know him that's like you don't know

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Speaker 1: your maleman. You don't know the guy at McDonald's that

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Speaker 1: gives you a large coffee with two creams in it

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Speaker 1: every morning. You don't know the neighbor three doors down,

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Speaker 1: but you do. Again, thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: as we are struggling with the reality that a double killer,

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Speaker 1: according to police, was right there saying good morning, How

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Speaker 1: can I help you every single day to practicularly everybody

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Speaker 1: in town. To Cheryl McCallum joining me, founder director of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, isn't the CVS right

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Speaker 1: in the middle oftown, right in the middle of town.

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Speaker 1: If you take the CBS and make it the center

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Speaker 1: of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school,

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Speaker 1: you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge.

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Speaker 1: Everywhere is centered from downtown. Well, you know, I know

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Speaker 1: our pharmacists because the twins are so sick when they

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Speaker 1: were little. We were in there all the time and

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Speaker 1: owe them their families through pictures everybody that works there.

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Speaker 1: You get to know your pharmacists, and this local pharmacy

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Speaker 1: tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town. Joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine you can find him

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Speaker 1: on Insta at Max Lewis TV Max. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. I guess the town is stunned right

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Speaker 1: now because this has been going on over five years

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Speaker 1: and every day, I mean, for Pete's sake. And one

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Speaker 1: picture he's had a bar who was it, J and

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Speaker 1: HC and S barn grill. He's sitting right there living

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Speaker 1: it up, and right behind him on the wall is

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Speaker 1: his composite. Yeah. I mean people were just when we

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Speaker 1: heard about it, we saw this picture, we saw who

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Speaker 1: he was. People were stunned. Five and a half years,

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Speaker 1: they've been investigating this and this guy has been living

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Speaker 1: amongst them the whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions.

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Speaker 1: They're printing off photos format at CBS, and nobody saw anything.

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Speaker 1: I think that's sort of what the family was saying

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Speaker 1: there and what a whole lot of people have told

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Speaker 1: me is really nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at

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Speaker 1: the discussion thought maybe it was him or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was just sort of really shocking. We

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Speaker 1: don't know how police got to him at this point

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Speaker 1: because all those documents are sealed, but yeah, stunning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got more on that Max Lewis and the search

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Speaker 1: warrant that was executed on his home a few days

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Speaker 1: before his arrest. I'm going to get into that, but

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Speaker 1: right now, the shot factor, and I'll tell you what

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Speaker 1: I think. And this is from having handle cases where

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Speaker 1: the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we all looked at the possibility it was a transient,

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Speaker 1: but Cheryl mccollumb, you and I agreed on day one

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Speaker 1: this was no transient. Right day one, Q and I

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Speaker 1: said it, and we never wavered from it. We even

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Speaker 1: said he would be within five miles and there Dance,

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Speaker 1: I got to Delfy and we saw where the bridge was.

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Speaker 1: I mean that to me, I was like, he's even

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Speaker 1: closer than I think. And remember the guy the catfisher

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Speaker 1: was kea conclined gosh I'm not known now know their

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Speaker 1: names by heart. Keegan Klein was a curve, pasty looking dude,

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Speaker 1: middle age. I think he is anyway. Using a screenshot

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Speaker 1: Anthony shots of adjustin Bieber looked alone trying to lure

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Speaker 1: young girls. And he was talking to them just a

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Speaker 1: day or two before and maybe the day of. But

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Speaker 1: he lives like thirty sixty miles away and you and

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Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, that's tempting, it's really tempting. But the

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Speaker 1: distance didn't fit to us, because who would know to

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Speaker 1: go to that dirt road, to that particular trail, to

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Speaker 1: that trestle bridge, and then down to a bottleneck take

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Speaker 1: forced the girls down to where they really couldn't get

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Speaker 1: away and murder them, and I think rape them first

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Speaker 1: had to be a local. It had to be a

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Speaker 1: local with intimate knowledge. Because even where they crossed the creek,

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Speaker 1: that's where the creek was shallow. Other parts of it

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Speaker 1: are waist deep. This person knew. Hold on, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to drink him. What you're saying. Parts of

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Speaker 1: the creek shallow, other part's waist deep. And that factored

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Speaker 1: into it. It absolutely did. Why are you saying that?

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Speaker 1: Because again, this person would have to know that. If

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Speaker 1: you and I just were visiting that area, we wouldn't

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Speaker 1: know where to cross that creek. And again, waist high

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Speaker 1: chess high in some places if it's been raining. But

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Speaker 1: he knew right word across where it was less than

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Speaker 1: ankle deep. And Max Lewis Fox fifty nine joining us,

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Speaker 1: He's been all over this, Max Lewis, The thing is,

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Speaker 1: the killer wouldn't know and you've been to that Chelsea

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Speaker 1: Bridge a million times. The killer would have to know

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Speaker 1: that there were other people that were in that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to call it a park, it's more like a

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Speaker 1: hiking area, and where he killed them. Other people would

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Speaker 1: not be able to see what was going on, even

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Speaker 1: though they could be walking around in the hiking area. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, this is a very well traveled area,

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Speaker 1: so I mean, it's hard to believe that nobody would

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Speaker 1: have seen them. That maybe where the sort of you

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Speaker 1: remember that chilling audio recording that down the hill. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't necessarily know, you know, if he is the

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Speaker 1: bridge guy per se. You know, that's still they're holding

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Speaker 1: everything close to the best at this point. Okay, wait

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Speaker 1: wait wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the train, Max Lewis.

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Speaker 1: Let's follow that theory to its logical conclusion, and that

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Speaker 1: would be that there were two killers, that one guy

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Speaker 1: lured them down, the so called bridge guy, and then

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Speaker 1: Richard Alan raped and murdered them. I find that hard

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Speaker 1: to believe. My mind is still open, But is that

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Speaker 1: what you're suggesting? Well, that seems to be somewhat of

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Speaker 1: the indication that we are getting at this point because

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Speaker 1: who read it. No, No, we're getting that from the

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Speaker 1: way they're handling this. They steal those documents, they say,

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Speaker 1: this investigation is ongoing. What more than they need? If

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Speaker 1: they have their guys, they've made it the rest. They

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Speaker 1: found a probable concept for David. What more do they need?

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Speaker 1: Why are you shaking your head? Yes? I believe jump

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Speaker 1: jump the reason it's own. First of all, Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: I do not want you on my jury ever. Forget it.

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Speaker 1: You just fall for anything. Anybody says, yeah, yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: shaking her head, yes to everything. Max Lewis says Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: Straightened out. Woman. There's a great possibility there are additional victims.

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Speaker 1: So they are going to connect every dot they possibly can.

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Speaker 1: This investigation does not end and are rest in a

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Speaker 1: great world. This is where it starts. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: you really think I'm not picking on you, Max Lewis,

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Speaker 1: you're the messenger, Okay, but do you really think this

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Speaker 1: guy went from zero to one twenty mph in one day?

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Speaker 1: Because I don't even when a sports car it takes

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Speaker 1: a minute to heat up. So I'm not buying it.

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Speaker 1: I think what Cheryl McCollum just said is right. I

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Speaker 1: think a law enforcement are looking for other young girl victims,

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Speaker 1: were they sex assaulted, where they threatened it they feel threatened,

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Speaker 1: and for people that may have helped him cover up

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Speaker 1: this crime. Back to who is this guy? Take a

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Speaker 1: listen now to this. Before moving to Delphi, he lived

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Speaker 1: in this home with his wife and daughter. According to neighbors,

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Speaker 1: David Yoder lived across the street but has known Allen

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Speaker 1: since he was born and grew up with his dad. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I would have never thought living across the

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Speaker 1: road from him, he reserved anything. That's why we're setting

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Speaker 1: my kids to if it had been any trouble. But

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Speaker 1: after hearing Allen was arrested in charge with killing Abby

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Speaker 1: Williams and Libby German, he's now questioning if he really

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Speaker 1: knew him. It's just hard to believe. He heck of

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Speaker 1: a nice guy, always has been. Hey him, a nice guy,

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Speaker 1: always has been. Well, you know what they said that

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Speaker 1: about Joseph DeAngelo, the Golden State killer, that he had

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Speaker 1: even been a cop. I believe it was in Oxford, California.

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Speaker 1: They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which

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Speaker 1: makes me suspicious at the get go. Who wants to

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Speaker 1: catch dogs and put him to death? Not me? Bt

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Speaker 1: K by torture kill. Dennis Raider, deacon at the church, freak, complete,

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Speaker 1: total freak. After he would murder people in his community

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Speaker 1: on his dog catching route, he would then redress them

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Speaker 1: and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that

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Speaker 1: sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too.

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Speaker 1: And of course I was going to go out on

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Speaker 1: a limb Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there is

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Speaker 1: a cable TV entertainment program suggesting the Scott Peterson is innocent.

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Speaker 1: He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacy and Connor. And

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Speaker 1: you can throw all the hate at me you want to,

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Speaker 1: but that is the truth. I was in the trial,

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Speaker 1: were you bet? You weren't. If you believe everything somebody

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Speaker 1: is paid to create to convince you to get ratings,

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Speaker 1: you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm gonna throw

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson in there too. Good looking cause degree, great job,

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Speaker 1: beautiful home, beautiful wife. Yeah, he's a killer. Time Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Greece with me right now, David Yoder, you

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Speaker 1: just heard him speaking to our friend Max Lewis, Fox

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Speaker 1: fifty nine, who's really may have broken so many aspects

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Speaker 1: of this case Fox fifty nine. David Yoder grew up

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Speaker 1: with Richard Allen as a child and was his neighbor

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Speaker 1: for years and years. And you just heard him say

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Speaker 1: to Max, if my children are in trouble, I tell

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Speaker 1: him to run over there. That's how much he trust's

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Speaker 1: trust did Richard Allen? David yoders, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Okay, tell me, David Yoder, don't leave anything out.

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Speaker 1: What do you recall growing up with Richard Allen. I

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Speaker 1: grew up with a little girl named Joy Jones. Connie

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Speaker 1: Joy Jones lived across the street. They had four children.

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Speaker 1: One was the same may each of us. And it

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Speaker 1: was wonderful. Still friends after all that time, She says.

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Speaker 1: The first time she met me, I came to her

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Speaker 1: door ununnounced or uninvited. They opened the door and I said, math,

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Speaker 1: please have a cookie. That's how that friendship started. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about Richard Allen, Well, he was a good kid

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Speaker 1: growing up. I mean, never in any trouble. Um. They

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Speaker 1: were a good family. Is dad is a friend of mine?

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Speaker 1: H he uh there's just good people, all around, good people.

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Speaker 1: They're very smart people. Of his grandpa was a principal

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Speaker 1: of my grade school and a teacher. Uh, there's just

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Speaker 1: a good family, all around, good family. And it's just

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Speaker 1: shocked to think it Rec could do something like this.

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Speaker 1: If he did it, if he didn't do it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's still innocent until proven guilty. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: kind of aven say got on him, and but it's

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Speaker 1: just it's just a shock. Like I said, I would

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Speaker 1: have sent my kids over there to a safe house,

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Speaker 1: over to him if I had to to, you know,

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Speaker 1: to go there if there was any problems and I

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Speaker 1: w wasn't home or showing well. I feel the same

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Speaker 1: way about Connie Joy Jones. If somebody told me Connie

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Speaker 1: Joy Jones aka Joy Jones h committed a double murder

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Speaker 1: much less on children, I'd say no way. I'd go

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Speaker 1: to court and go under oath and talk about what

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Speaker 1: a great person she was and is and has been

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Speaker 1: alone with my children, and I would have her be

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Speaker 1: alone with them again. I know what you're saying, Uh,

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Speaker 1: what is his character? You keep saying a good guy?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? What? He never once

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Speaker 1: shot lifted. He never sped, He never check a pack

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Speaker 1: of gun from the store. Nothing. He only spoke. It

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Speaker 1: was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: older than he is. Several years he was. He was

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Speaker 1: better friends with his dad than him. But I were

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Speaker 1: growing up. How much older are you, Dan, Richard Allen?

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Speaker 1: I'm sixty eight and Alan is fifty right, Okay, eighteen

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Speaker 1: years so somewhere in the um. When you say a

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Speaker 1: good guy. How did he do in school? Did he

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Speaker 1: play a sport? Not so much an athlete? Now? What

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Speaker 1: did he do? I don't know, just went to school.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't with him in school. His dad I was.

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Speaker 1: Is that who we're talking about now? I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: Richard Allen. I'm not as interested in his parents. Richard.

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Speaker 1: I was out of school in Richard went to school.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was eighteen years older than he was.

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Speaker 1: He's young enough to be my kid, and never a

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Speaker 1: bit of trouble when he was growing up that I knew.

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Speaker 1: Does he have brothers and sisters? He got one sister.

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Speaker 1: Where does she live? I don't know. I lost track

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Speaker 1: of her a long time ago. I mean, and I

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Speaker 1: have rich two he uh moved away from here. I

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Speaker 1: just kind of lost track of him talking about Richard Allen,

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Speaker 1: Neighbors that actually grew up with him, saw him grow

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Speaker 1: up as a child, like David Yoder, or having a

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Speaker 1: hard time taking in that he is now charged with

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Speaker 1: double murder. David Yoder, what did you think when you

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Speaker 1: learned that cops have arrested Richard Allen for the murders

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Speaker 1: of Abby and Libby? First started once is no way,

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Speaker 1: no way, But then you know, if it's true, then

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Speaker 1: then he deserves the penalty that goes along with it.

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Speaker 1: I hope, I hope they catch whoever did it. If

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Speaker 1: it isn't him. If it is him, then then he

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Speaker 1: deserves everything he gets. David Yoder says he is absolutely

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Speaker 1: shocked that a boy he knew his entire childhood, all

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Speaker 1: the way through growing up and moving away as an adult,

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Speaker 1: is possible for such a gruesome sex attack we believe,

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Speaker 1: and double murder we believe by knife. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I'll have to ask a shrink Karen Stark about this,

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Speaker 1: but the thought of putting a knife to a little

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Speaker 1: girl's throat is just it's it's repulsive. I don't even

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Speaker 1: want to think about it. But a little digging does

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Speaker 1: reveal a tiny lip. Take a listen to our friend

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Speaker 1: Max at Fox fifty nine. Alan has no criminal history,

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Speaker 1: but Carroll County Dispatch records show he had one encounter

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Speaker 1: with police in twenty fifteen. The sheriff said it was

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Speaker 1: a domestic issue where Alan was supposedly drunk and his

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Speaker 1: wife took him too a Loffyett hospital. No law enforcement

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Speaker 1: action was taken, but deputies were sent to his Delphi

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Speaker 1: home to quote, keep the peace, okay, Max, a little.

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Speaker 1: So far, the cops haven't come to our home to

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Speaker 1: keep the peace, and nobody's been carted off to the

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Speaker 1: emergency room. Drunk is a skunk, So what do we

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Speaker 1: know about what happened? But we're providing a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of clarification about that. You know, it sounds like there

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Speaker 1: was you know, as I said, there there was a

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Speaker 1: domestic situation. When I asked the shareff, who's the domestic

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Speaker 1: station situation between he wouldn't tell me. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I am a little suspect of this, but you know,

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Speaker 1: that was But it's also the only other thing I

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Speaker 1: ever found of him. I mean, you saw, I went

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Speaker 1: to his hometown, looked through his criminal background. That's the

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Speaker 1: only thing we found about him, and it did happen

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Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the morning. So you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: leave that for you guys to decide what you want

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Speaker 1: to think about that, and I certainly will I certainly

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Speaker 1: will do. I say that, who is up causing a

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Speaker 1: ruck us drunk as a skunk at three a m.

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Speaker 1: That's not good to Fran Longwell, former Deputy States Attorney

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Speaker 1: and Calvert County former Assistant States Attorney Prince George's specializing

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Speaker 1: and homicide and other related crimes. Fran thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. What do you make of this prior arrest?

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Speaker 1: How the prior I think it shows in my opinion

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Speaker 1: that he does have some type of violent streak at him.

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Speaker 1: But I kind of agree with you, Nancy that this

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Speaker 1: didn't start from zero to what happens to these little girls.

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Speaker 1: I'm just concerned we're going to find other victims, or

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Speaker 1: we're going to find other other kids that have been

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Speaker 1: abused by this guy. Yeah, why are you saying that,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl mccollumb. What leads you to that speculation? But by

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Speaker 1: the way, I agree with you, Well, I mean again,

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Speaker 1: broad Daylight two victims with other people around, a victim

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Speaker 1: that clearly has a cell phone that is high risk.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about somebody on the bridge that's, you know,

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Speaker 1: eighty feet high in the air and has boards missing.

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Speaker 1: Everything he did was so risky. It tells me that

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Speaker 1: ain't his first rodeo. And I want to say one

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Speaker 1: more thing. When I was listening to the neighbors speak,

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Speaker 1: and I think people need to understand when you look

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Speaker 1: at a case like this and you're only thinking from

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Speaker 1: your vantage point, you can't possibly accept it or understand it.

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Speaker 1: But when you talked to criminologists like you and I, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: we talked, probably their throats were slash, they were posed,

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Speaker 1: they were staged. Things were probably done there, whether it's

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Speaker 1: a carving or some sort of ritual, if you look

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Speaker 1: at it. If this was my case, one of the

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Speaker 1: first things I would do is go to CBS and

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Speaker 1: see if there's a camera in the girls restaurant. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's funny you would say that, because after investigating a

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Speaker 1: case in chief, the very next thing I would do

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Speaker 1: is start looking for similar transactions. But you said it

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Speaker 1: so much more descriptively than I did. Because a crime

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Speaker 1: like this there has got to be some prior not

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Speaker 1: necessarily in the Scott Peterson type case, where that is

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Speaker 1: a domestic homicide, right, he hasn't had another wife to

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Speaker 1: kill in a case like this. However, these are not

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Speaker 1: his children, so although he does have a daughter near

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Speaker 1: their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with you three hundred percent. Now, what

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Speaker 1: do we know about A twelve plus hour search of

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Speaker 1: his home. Something in that home led them to ultimately

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Speaker 1: arrest the local pharmacists, the tech Richard Allen take a

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Speaker 1: listen our cut eighty three, our friends at crime Online

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Speaker 1: and first our friend Lindsay Stone Fox fifty nine. Richard

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Speaker 1: Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information uncovered

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Speaker 1: by our rust the Quaid from sources with knowledge of

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Speaker 1: the investigation found he even came forward in the early

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Speaker 1: days of the investigation as a witness from a mon

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Speaker 1: on high Bridge the day Abbey and Libby were killed

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Speaker 1: in February of twenty seventeen. Now, at the time any

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Speaker 1: inquiry did not reveal the need for further investigation. However,

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Speaker 1: his name surfaced again recently. A search warrant was issued

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Speaker 1: at his house two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly

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Speaker 1: linking him to the deaths. He was arrested last Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: His initial hearing Friday, ten days before the arrest of

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Speaker 1: murder suspect Richard Allen, police officers extensively searched the fifty

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Speaker 1: year old's home, Neighbors tell the New York Posts the

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Speaker 1: non uniformed officers were on the property for about twelve hours.

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Speaker 1: During the search of the property, Allen chairs with his wife.

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Speaker 1: Officers were seen quote snooping a lot around the fire

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Speaker 1: pit and at the backyard. A neighbor describes quote lots

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Speaker 1: of flashlights, lots of pictures, lots of sifting unquote in

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Speaker 1: that area. The source says that it was odd for

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Speaker 1: them to be in that area, as the Allans were

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Speaker 1: never observed burning things. The neighbor also said when police

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Speaker 1: arrived at the property, no one suspected that there would

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Speaker 1: be a connection to the murders of Living and Abbey.

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Speaker 1: What are they looking for? What were they looking for?

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Speaker 1: If the Allens really didn't use the fire pit, then

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Speaker 1: what were they digging around for? Could have anything to

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Speaker 1: do with blood evidence and there will be blood evidence.

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Speaker 1: Martin my word, take a listen to our friends at WISH.

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Speaker 1: This nine page request for a search warrant filed March

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Speaker 1: seventeenth of twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than

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Speaker 1: a month after Libby German and Abby Williams were found

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Speaker 1: murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document, for the first time

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Speaker 1: gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and

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Speaker 1: what the suspect may have taken with him. The document,

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Speaker 1: written by an FBI agent, describes what investigators found when

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Speaker 1: they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German

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Speaker 1: on February fourteenth. The agent writes, a large amount of

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Speaker 1: blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is

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Speaker 1: nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten

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Speaker 1: blood on his person or clothing. Straight out to Fox

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Speaker 1: fifty nines, Max Lewis, all of that together, let's make

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Speaker 1: sense of it. Number one, A twelve plus hour search

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Speaker 1: of Richard Allen's home. A few days later, they come

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Speaker 1: back in him. They're digging around a very unused fire

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Speaker 1: pit with disturbed earth near by. We know there's blood evidence,

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00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: and also did you hear that that he actually came

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00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: forward as a witness in the early days of the investigation. Yeah, he, uh,

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Speaker 1: from what we have heard from our sources, you know,

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Speaker 1: he you know, walked up and volunteered to police and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was up there. I didn't really see anything,

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Speaker 1: but you know I can tell you, you know, whatever

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00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: you need to know or whatever. So you know, it's

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00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: that's sort of another amazing thing. And he was sort

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Speaker 1: of brushed off and not really given a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of thought to as far as the search goes on

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Speaker 1: his house. Yeah, they were. Neighbors told us they were

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Speaker 1: searching around there, digging in the backyard, digging in a

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Speaker 1: fire pit. Makes you wonder what was in that fire pit?

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Speaker 1: Was he trying to get rid of something? You know,

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00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: what was going on back there? So many, so many

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00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: unanswered question about this, but it all doesn't look good.

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Speaker 1: I want to circle back to what you just said.

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00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: Tell me again. Max Lewis joining us from Fox fifty nine,

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00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: who's been on the case from the very very beginning.

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Speaker 1: You stayed at the in the initial days of the

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Speaker 1: investigation that Richard Allen went to police and said I

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Speaker 1: was there and offered himself up as a witness. That's right,

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Speaker 1: he was. You know, he said he was on the

426
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: trail that day. And I'm not exactly sure how the

427
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: encounter happened, if he was you know, if police came

428
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: upon him and started, you know, asking him, or if

429
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: he just walked up to them and said, hey, I

430
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,239
Speaker 1: was here, didn't see anything. But you know, I can

431
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: help you with what you need to know. But we

432
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: do know that he was interviewed by police in the

433
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then were

434
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: found murdered. To Karen Start joining me renowned psychologists joining

435
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: us out of Manhattan at Karen starton dot com. That's

436
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: Karen with the see Karen. He places himself at the

437
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: scene of the murder. Scott Peterson did that, idiot. He

438
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: places himself there claiming he's fishing on Christmas Eve in

439
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: the cold and the rain, and then Lacy and Connor's

440
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: bodies turn up miraculously where he was fishing. And then

441
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: in the weeks that followed, he was tracked back and

442
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: forth to San Francisco Bay looking out over the water.

443
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: I guess he was trying to see if their bodies

444
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: had washed up. But also it reminds me of Wayne Williams,

445
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: the Atlanta serial killer. He was always at the scene

446
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: of the crime before anybody else got there, under the

447
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: guise of being a stringer for TV stations. He was

448
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: always there, and I think trying to glean evidence from

449
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: the police, trying to get information. Were they onto him.

450
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: What do you make of him coming to the scene

451
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: in the days immediately following the I'm not the least surprised, Nancy,

452
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: because yes, perhaps looking for evidence, But the truth is,

453
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: when you're that kind of person, a psychopath capable of

454
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: doing this without empathy, you are, in many instances reliving

455
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: what happens. He's enjoying, believe it or not, every moment

456
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: of this very cunning and manipulative, sitting under posters with

457
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: his own sketch and back of him. And I want

458
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: to tell you something. You mentioned all those killers who

459
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: everyone keeps saying, you know, yeah, I never would have

460
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: expected it out him. And that's not surprising, because that's

461
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: part of this m is superficially charming, and they strike

462
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: observers as remarkably normal, but they're not normal. Just the

463
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: fact that he did that. Think about it, he goes,

464
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: he's the one that extensively committed this crime, and he's volunteering.

465
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: And I think that very often police forget to look

466
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: at a person like this. If they want to be there,

467
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: they want to be a part of it. They're getting

468
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: it thrill out of reliving it and being a part

469
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: of the process. I don't know if the name Rodney

470
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: al Kala rings a bell and Cheryl says, you're jumping in,

471
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: I'll throw this to you. He was the Dating Game killer,

472
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: Rodney al Kalla, and he was so charming, he managed handsome,

473
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: the works to some people, not me, but many people.

474
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: He was so charming and personal that they put him

475
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: on the Dating Game remember that show. And he turned

476
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: out to be a cold bloody killer, cold bloody killer.

477
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: But let's talk about people that ingratiate themselves in cases.

478
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: Vodiac did it. Oh, Vodiac couldn't take it and had

479
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing

480
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: with Wayne Williams that is identical to this case. Wayne

481
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: Williams also burned things, not in a fire pit, but

482
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: on his greal remember after police yea and at the game. Okay,

483
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned

484
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: is absolutely correct, and that's another reason he hasn't maybe

485
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living

486
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,959
Speaker 1: this one. The family comes into CBS and he has

487
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: contact with him, you know, ask him, hey, do you

488
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: need anything. Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know,

489
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: Kelsey always said she worried about that, and that is

490
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: a victim's sister had contact. But I'll tell you something else.

491
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: I guarantee that he went to the funeral or the viewing.

492
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: And I guarantee he was a volunteer searcher, whether it

493
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: was official or not. I guarantee he was out there. Okay,

494
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good idea what may have been

495
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: burned and that fire pit. Take a listen to our

496
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: friend to me Johnson WISHTV. Authorities also found that two

497
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: articles of clothing from one of the girls was missing

498
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: from the crime scene, while the rest of their clothing

499
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: was recovered. It also appeared the girl bodies were moved

500
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: and staged. The agent goes on to say, based upon

501
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: my training and experience, it is common for perpetrators of

502
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: this type of crime to take a souvenir or in

503
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: some fashion memorialize the crime scene. The agent also references

504
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: the video on Libby's phone, confirming it was forty three

505
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: seconds long. Up until now, only a few seconds have

506
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: been made public, that the girls were followed by the

507
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: suspect on the Monon Highbridge trail, and that there were

508
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: no visible signs of a struggle or fight. Okay, taking

509
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: a souvenir. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace straight out to

510
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: Fran Longwell, joining US veteran trial lawyer expertise homicide. What

511
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: do you make of that, Fran, I think that's totally

512
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: that's natural. I think a lot of them, a lot

513
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: of serial killers, for sure, always seem to take some

514
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: kind of souvenir. We had a case years ago where

515
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: they were fighting bodies along the belt Way in areas

516
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: of pre s George's County, and years and years later

517
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: that suspect was found. He was able to draw pictures

518
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: of each victim, what she looked like, and he had

519
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: some sulvenir reached one of those murders. I don't think

520
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: that's unusual. I think that's part of their excitement of

521
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: the crime. What about it, Karen Stark, New York Psychologists

522
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: joining us today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs? It's

523
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: very common it's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I

524
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: have of the twins. I mean, I don't even know

525
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: how many. I've got birthday Chris and a Christmas, Thanksgiving birthday.

526
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: It just goes on and on, a summer vacation for

527
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: every year they're fifteen, Karen, those are my souvenirs, But

528
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: their souvenirs are of the crime emtie. They want to

529
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's exciting

530
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate to

531
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: say this, but I have a feeling that will be underwear,

532
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: because they like to do that, to take underwear, to

533
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: take some kind of token that they've been there, that

534
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: they do this, it gives them a really good sense

535
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: of themselves. They're powerful, they're above the law, and they

536
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: got away with it, and they're caught dead in the water.

537
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. The evidence which suggests this, and rumors have abounded,

538
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: but we're not going to know until we have the

539
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: release date of those warrants and probably will cause affidavits

540
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: in November. Later on in November, we think, but what

541
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: out the theory that the girls were redressed and that

542
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: somehow some of their clothing were interchanged by accident. Again,

543
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: those of us in this business, redressing is something that occurs.

544
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: I mean's something that they ched bundy Ah after the

545
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: person was dead. He'd redressed them and do their hair

546
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: and makeup. He'd bathed their bodies in the bathtub at

547
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: the house Israel keys did the same thing, makeup, hair,

548
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: redressed them, posed them, raiding the girl's hair like yeah,

549
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: oh gosh, yeah, that's part of their fantasy. They're acting

550
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: something out. So a lot of times we focus on

551
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: the murder, but it is a sexually generated crime, there's

552
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: no question about it. And again his computers, when you

553
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: know the superintendent mentioned the lab so often, the electronic part,

554
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: the biology, the tool marks, the voice analysis, the hairs,

555
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: the fiber, the blood, the blood, the tool marks which

556
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: is from a knife. But I also think Arthon is

557
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: going to be a money tree too. Doctor Todd M.

558
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: Barr now joining us speaking of blood. He is a

559
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: board certified and atomic clinical forensic pathologist joining us out

560
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: of Ohio. He's featured in Thin Places, Essays from in

561
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: Between and you can find him on Twitter at Todd

562
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: Barr MA. That's from Medical Exam or doctor Barr. Thank

563
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: you for being with us and waiting for the build

564
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: up to the scientists, the medical examiners that ultimately sis

565
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: there are no eyewitnesses as of yet will make or

566
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: break this case. We learned there are copious amounts of

567
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: blood at the scene. How is that likely to have happened? Well, Nancy,

568
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: it seems to me. I know that there's some speculation

569
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: that possibly the throats of the victims have been slashed,

570
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: and you know, because the carrodi arteries are under such

571
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: high pressure, there would be a lot of um spatter

572
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: and disbursement of blood in the process. So you're absolutely

573
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: a hundred percent correct that could be transfer of that

574
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing, but also

575
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: onto the perpetrator. So um, And my thought was, you know,

576
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in

577
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: the fire pit area, possibly the clothing. Um. And I've

578
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: worked on several serial killer cases before, and they do

579
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: like to take a trophy from uh. You know, it's

580
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: been my experience that that that these articles that they

581
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: collect are basically like a trophy. And I have to

582
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: also think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the

583
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: case trying to get involved in the case. There may

584
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: even be some some notoriety element, like they actually want

585
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: to be caught. Um So I think that, you know,

586
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: with a twenty million dollar bond on this gentleman, there's

587
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: got to be some significant evidence that they found. I

588
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: know it's all sealed, but I'm very much concerned that

589
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: there are other victims at play here. Wow, that was

590
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: a lot of information, doctor Todd Barr. Still, I'm just

591
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: digesting everything that you just said. Got a question if

592
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: this is, as we believe, a stabbing death, which I

593
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: find very very unusual. I would have suspected a strangling

594
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances, But

595
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: due to the copious amounts of blood too, which have

596
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: been alluded in the documents, it leads me to think

597
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: that it is in fact a stabbing death. If there

598
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 1: are multiple stab wounds, such as in that Jodi Arias

599
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: case where Travis Alenxander was stabbed twenty nine plus times

600
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: and then shot, would you be able to match that

601
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a

602
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: particular knife, and if so, how depending on the type

603
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: of knife that may have been used, If it was

604
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: one that had a serrated edge. You could actually if

605
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: it if the tool actually got into the bone in

606
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 1: the area that's that's where the tool marks are found

607
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: when the when the blade would pass over the bone,

608
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 1: and if it's serrated, they can actually match up those

609
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: serrated edges almost identically to to show um, you know

610
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: that a specific tool was used. So if they do

611
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: have the murder weapon and they have evidence of serrations

612
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: on the bone, then that would very easily be matched up.

613
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: Dodger Toddbar you really need to do an audio book

614
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: on all the cases that you have worked, because just

615
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: hearing you explain it is very very intriguing, especially when

616
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: you're talking about matching up tool our keys. Guys, it

617
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: ain't over yet. It is far from over. Take a

618
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: listen to this. This is rather unusual, but it's not

619
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: going to be forever. This is very complex and just

620
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: since um what less than forty eight hours ago, we

621
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: have over two hundred new additional tips. So we've still

622
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: got some We've still got a lot of work to do,

623
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: but I'm proud of where we are. Can you characterize

624
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: any of those tips if you could say, well, it's

625
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: kind of what we have gotten are like, WHOA, we've

626
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: gotten something. I mean, I know you can't talk specifics.

627
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 1: I'll say that, I'll say to you, to to everybody

628
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 1: watching this morning. Every one of those matter, every single

629
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: one of the matters. So if you think it's a

630
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: little bit unusual, but us tell us, let us figure

631
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: that out. And we're not always going to tell you

632
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: what we know until the time is right. We'll never

633
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: tell you what we think. While the investigation is ongoing

634
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: and tips pouring in, the harsh reality is setting into

635
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: the girls families. Their quest has been to been to

636
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: find the killer. Take a listen to our cut seventy eight.

637
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: I've always told people that when we were told that

638
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: they'd hear me yelling from the rooftops, and when they

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Speaker 1: told us, it was really just kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: reality was much different than what I totally expected. I

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Speaker 1: got up the next morning and got my coffee and

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00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: got ready to post my today as the day and

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00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: realize that, well, I don't have to do this anymore.

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00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: So I think that's when summer reality set in and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, now, now what do I do? What is

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00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: my purpose? You're hearing Libby's grandma, our friend now Baky

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00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: Patty speaking to our friends at chel N What now.

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Speaker 1: I advise everyone that now focus is on a true verdict.

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Speaker 1: We wait as justice and falls. Goodbye friend,