Speaker 1: One of the questions I get most often is how
Speaker 1: can you properly appreciate a golf course while you're playing it.
Speaker 1: A lot of people find this very difficult, partly because
Speaker 1: they're trying to shoot good scores, which is hard enough.
Speaker 1: So it helps to have if you go to techniques
Speaker 1: for understanding a golf course in the moment. And that's
Speaker 1: what we're talking about in this episode. My guest is
Speaker 1: the legendary Jeff Shackelford, the author of the Quadrilateral Newsletter
Speaker 1: as well as many excellent books about golf architecture. My
Speaker 1: name is Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf, all right,
Speaker 1: So today's big question, how can you properly appreciate a
Speaker 1: golf course while you're playing it? I got this question
Speaker 1: most recently in Frida Egg Golf Club. That's Friday Golf's membership.
Speaker 1: Go to the Friday dot com slash membership to see
Speaker 1: what it's all about. A member named Adrian Mazarolo asked
Speaker 1: it this way, how do you balance assessing the course
Speaker 1: with focusing on your round? I feel like I struggle
Speaker 1: doing one or the other. This is a challenge, you know,
Speaker 1: just kind of figuring out how to divvy up your
Speaker 1: attention while you're playing golf. What do you focus on
Speaker 1: if you're interested in golf architecture, What habits or patterns
Speaker 1: of thought can help you appreciate a golf course fully.
Speaker 1: That's what I want to talk about today. And I've
Speaker 1: got two things that I do, two big things that
Speaker 1: I try to do. At least I'm not perfect on
Speaker 1: this stuff, but when I play a new golf course,
Speaker 1: I do two big things to help myself understand the architecture. Now,
Speaker 1: before I get to the first thing, there's one big
Speaker 1: habit that I think underlies everything else, and that is walking.
Speaker 1: If you're able, I think it's I think it's just
Speaker 1: difficult to take in a golf course completely. When you're
Speaker 1: writing in a cart, you just see so much more.
Speaker 1: When you're walking. You usually have more alone time to
Speaker 1: be observational and reflective, and you literally feel the land
Speaker 1: and the course under your feet. That to me is
Speaker 1: very important. So if you can walk, I think doing
Speaker 1: so has a lot of benefits for your appreciation of
Speaker 1: golf course architecture. All right, So the first big thing
Speaker 1: that I do to appreciate golf courses while I'm playing
Speaker 1: is this, I think about each hole from the green
Speaker 1: back to the tee. What this means is that I'll
Speaker 1: I kind of take a moment after putting out on
Speaker 1: a hole just to stand on the green, look at
Speaker 1: the design of the green, look at the contouring, the shape,
Speaker 1: the orientation, and just consider the relation of all of
Speaker 1: that to the rest.
Speaker 2: Of the hole.
Speaker 1: This is something that my boss, Friday Golf founder Andy Johnson,
Speaker 1: talks about a lot, and he especially likes to consider
Speaker 1: the different potential pin positions that a green has. Usually
Speaker 1: golfers just think about the one pin position that happens
Speaker 1: to be in use that day, but sometimes a hole
Speaker 1: can change completely if the pin is in a different spot.
Speaker 1: And actually one sign of a well designed hole is
Speaker 1: that different pin positions produce different playing experiences. That creates
Speaker 1: this day to day variety that I think is an
Speaker 1: important indicator of strong golf course architecture. So an example
Speaker 1: of a hole that rewards the practice of green to
Speaker 1: tea thinking is the fourth hole at Royal Saint George's.
Speaker 1: This is a links course in England and a regular
Speaker 1: Open Championship host. I played it last October and it's
Speaker 1: still on my mind. So that's part of why I'm
Speaker 1: talking about it now. So say you've putted out on
Speaker 1: the fourth green at this golf course. What you're looking
Speaker 1: at is an elevated putting surface kind of draped across
Speaker 1: a shelf right, a big shelf. There's a lower section
Speaker 1: of the green at the bottom of the shelf, and
Speaker 1: the green kind of swoops up on top of the
Speaker 1: shelf where the main part of the green is. It's
Speaker 1: very high up there, and everything falls away, or almost everything.
Speaker 1: It definitely falls away in the front, It falls away
Speaker 1: on the right, and it falls away in the back.
Speaker 1: The one bit of forgiveness is on the left, where
Speaker 1: there's this big sideboard that kind of feeds onto the green.
Speaker 1: So you'll realize when when you look at this that
Speaker 1: if you use this funneling contour on your approach, the
Speaker 1: hole becomes a lot more forgiving. But to use the
Speaker 1: sideboard on the left properly, you have to be on
Speaker 1: the right side of the fairway right, so that way
Speaker 1: you'll be hitting into the sideboard rather than over and
Speaker 1: across it. In other words, if you're on the left
Speaker 1: side of the fairway, this contour actually hurts you because
Speaker 1: your ball is going to be traveling in a direction
Speaker 1: where this slope will propel it away instead of killing
Speaker 1: it and kind of corraling it back onto the green. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we know now looking at the green that the
Speaker 1: right side of the fairway is preferred. Now we can
Speaker 1: think back to the t Is there something about the
Speaker 1: tea shot that makes accessing the right side of the
Speaker 1: fairway difficult? And it turns out that yes, there is.
Speaker 1: There's this massive dune standing in front of and completely
Speaker 1: blocking the right side of the fairway. It's blind. The
Speaker 1: right side of the fairway is blind from the tee.
Speaker 1: So to get into the ideal position in the fairway
Speaker 1: to use the contours of the green to your advantage,
Speaker 1: you have to hit your tea shot directly over the dune.
Speaker 1: And that's just an uncomfortable, counterintuitive thing to do. It's
Speaker 1: not actually that huge of a carry with modern equipment.
Speaker 1: It used to be, but not really any longer. But
Speaker 1: it is very intimidating and just mentally difficult to commit
Speaker 1: to a line that you can't visualize. So that's how
Speaker 1: you can understand the design of a whole Taking a
Speaker 1: moment to analyze the green and think your way back
Speaker 1: to the tea. All right, So what about different pin positions.
Speaker 2: I mentioned that.
Speaker 1: There is a possible alternative spot on the fourth hole
Speaker 1: at Royal Saint George's below the shelf, in this little bowl,
Speaker 1: and this just makes it so much easier to hit
Speaker 1: your approach shot close to the pin, and it really
Speaker 1: deemphasizes position in the fairway because it doesn't matter as
Speaker 1: much if you're on the left or the right side
Speaker 1: of the fairway if everything kind of feeds to the pin. Now,
Speaker 1: I will say that the club hardly ever puts the
Speaker 1: pin there, at least that's what I heard when I
Speaker 1: was there. And this you could say is maybe a
Speaker 1: flaw of the hole. There really aren't that many alternative
Speaker 1: pin positions on the fourth hole at Royal Saint George's
Speaker 1: that are just as interesting as the primary pin up
Speaker 1: on the shelf. And this is another kind of insight
Speaker 1: that you can get by thinking from the green to
Speaker 1: the tee. A lot of holes are not strategically sophisticated,
Speaker 1: and you can expose that fact by looking closely at
Speaker 1: the design of the green as it relates to the
Speaker 1: rest of the hole. Sometimes a green is just equally
Speaker 1: receptive from all angles in which case the hole might
Speaker 1: not have much strategic content. And this isn't necessarily a
Speaker 1: bad thing, because there are plenty of other ways that
Speaker 1: a hole can be fun or memorable. But it is
Speaker 1: a useful data point as you're trying to understand and
Speaker 1: appreciate a golf course. Okay, so that's number one, looking
Speaker 1: at the green and tracing a line of thought back
Speaker 1: to the tee. The second big method of appreciating golf
Speaker 1: courses that I want to talk about is seeking out
Speaker 1: different angles on a particular hole. This is something I've
Speaker 1: discussed before with my colleague Cameron Hurdis. Cameron talks about
Speaker 1: how he tries not just to walk down the center
Speaker 1: of the fairway all the time, right, He tries to
Speaker 1: take unusual routes to get different views and perspectives. This
Speaker 1: is partly because he's a photographer and he's looking for
Speaker 1: those angles, but it's also useful for the rest of us.
Speaker 1: When we have a hole that is just where the
Speaker 1: green is more receptive from one side of the fairway
Speaker 1: than the other, right, like the Royal Saint George's hole
Speaker 1: that we just discussed, it's good to see both perspectives,
Speaker 1: the bad angle and the good angle. It's only through
Speaker 1: seeing both perspectives that you can understand the different ways
Speaker 1: that a hole might be played and the consequences for
Speaker 1: finding one position or another. One way that I like
Speaker 1: to do this is occasionally walking with a playing partner
Speaker 1: to their ball and watching them hit their shot, ideally
Speaker 1: of course after I've hit my own shot, because you know,
Speaker 1: you don't want to slow down pace of play. But
Speaker 1: sometimes it can be really informative to see how another
Speaker 1: player approaches the whole, especially if they're a different kind
Speaker 1: of player than you, if they're more skilled or less skilled,
Speaker 1: if they have more power or less power. Watching them
Speaker 1: on occasion and just seeing what happens to their ball,
Speaker 1: trying to understand their shot from their perspective, can help
Speaker 1: you grasp different dimensions of the course, dimensions that you
Speaker 1: might not be aware of because you're playing your own
Speaker 1: particular game. But a good golf course is much more
Speaker 1: than just one experience, right. It provides a lot of
Speaker 1: different experiences, hopefully just as good experiences for other players. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if you're playing the second hole at Pacific Dunes,
Speaker 1: Tom Doak design, this is Abandon Dunes. It's a shortish
Speaker 1: to mid length par four with a very wide fairway
Speaker 1: and a bunker right in the middle of the fairway,
Speaker 1: so you have a choice. You can play left of
Speaker 1: the center line bunker or right of the center line bunker.
Speaker 1: The left side is lower, and there's an additional bunker
Speaker 1: to the left near the landing zone for drives. The
Speaker 1: right side is higher, kind of on a plateau with
Speaker 1: no additional bunkers up there. Now, if I'm standing on
Speaker 1: this tee and I see these distinct options, I'm immediately
Speaker 1: thinking to myself, I want to see what it looks
Speaker 1: like from both of those positions. So either I'll take
Speaker 1: a route up the fairway that allows me to see
Speaker 1: both positions, or better yet, if one of my playing
Speaker 1: partners is on the other side from where I am,
Speaker 1: I'll walk over and watch their shot. And what you'll
Speaker 1: find if you do this is that the high right
Speaker 1: side on the second hole Pacific Dunes offers a much
Speaker 1: better view of the full green. But because there's a
Speaker 1: bunker guarding the right side of the green, the front
Speaker 1: right side of the green, it can actually be pretty
Speaker 1: hard to get to certain pin positions from this high
Speaker 1: right side. So there are both benefits and drawbacks to
Speaker 1: that right hand position. Right, you can see everything, but
Speaker 1: that bunker at the front right portion of the green
Speaker 1: is a little bit tricky. Then if you walk down
Speaker 1: to the left side of the fairway, you'll find that, yes,
Speaker 1: your sight line to the green is more obscured because
Speaker 1: you're lower, but from a certain spot the view is
Speaker 1: actually pretty good. If you're close to that left hand bunker,
Speaker 1: you'll be looking up a kind of half pipe in
Speaker 1: the land and you can see the green pretty well
Speaker 1: from there. There are even some contours that will feed
Speaker 1: your ball to certain pins if you're playing from that position.
Speaker 1: So that's actually a good spot if you can get
Speaker 1: to it near the left hand bunker and left of
Speaker 1: the center line bunker. And again, you can only appreciate
Speaker 1: these subtleties of the two different ways to play the
Speaker 1: hole if you make the effort to visit both sides
Speaker 1: of the fairway. Now related to this practice of finding
Speaker 1: different angles on a hole is that when you hit
Speaker 1: a bad shot, try to see it as an opportunity,
Speaker 1: because bad shots can show you a lot of interesting
Speaker 1: things about a golf course. You can step back and
Speaker 1: ask yourself, how did I get here right, and what
Speaker 1: kind of predicament have I I put myself in, And
Speaker 1: this way you can learn a lot about a golf course.
Speaker 1: You can learn about the traps that a golf architect
Speaker 1: has set for the player. So, for instance, last year,
Speaker 1: I played Oakmont Country Club for the first time. This
Speaker 1: is during a US Open media day, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was a tough day. You know, I wasn't playing
Speaker 1: that well as expected. And we came to the twelfth hole,
Speaker 1: which is a very long, downhill par five that sits
Speaker 1: on a big left to right slope. I had a
Speaker 1: great drive and a great second shot. I strung two
Speaker 1: good shots together, which I hadn't done all day to
Speaker 1: that point, and that left me with about an eight
Speaker 1: iron approach, a seven iron or an eight iron, and
Speaker 1: I pulled that approach left of the green, left of
Speaker 1: the bunkers, left of the green, and I got up
Speaker 1: to my ball and realized that I was screwed. The green,
Speaker 1: like the rest of the hole, sat on a pretty
Speaker 1: severe front to back, left to right slope, which meant
Speaker 1: that everything was moving away from me where I had missed.
Speaker 1: There was just no way that I was going to
Speaker 1: stop my ball, almost no way that I could keep
Speaker 1: my ball on the green, given how fast the greens
Speaker 1: at Oakmont are and how severe that slope is running
Speaker 1: away from me. So I thought to myself, how did
Speaker 1: I get here right? Why am I in the worst
Speaker 1: spot that I could possibly be? And I realized that
Speaker 1: when I was hitting my approach shot, I was instinctively
Speaker 1: avoiding a right miss because there's a little drop off
Speaker 1: to the right of the green into a ditch. There's
Speaker 1: an actual hazard over there. So that's what the design
Speaker 1: of the hole was doing to me. It was suggesting
Speaker 1: to me that the bad miss was on the right,
Speaker 1: but actually a left miss is way worse on that hole.
Speaker 1: If I had missed on the right, even if I
Speaker 1: had maybe been in the ditch, which was a ways
Speaker 1: off the green, I could have stopped my ball at
Speaker 1: least on the green where I was. That was almost impossible.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: The only way that I could get that insight into
Speaker 1: the twelfth hole at Oakmont was by hitting a bad
Speaker 1: shot and taking it as an opportunity to learn something,
Speaker 1: all right. So those are two big things you can
Speaker 1: do during your next round. You can think from the
Speaker 1: green back to the tee, and you can seek out
Speaker 1: multiple angles on each hole. And if you do those
Speaker 1: two things, I think you'll start appreciating the courses you
Speaker 1: play on a much deeper level. And that's what this
Speaker 1: is all about. Golf architecture is not about knowing a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that you can you know oh off
Speaker 1: to other people. It's not about feeling superior that you
Speaker 1: have all this knowledge. It's just about enjoying your rounds
Speaker 1: of golf more than you used to, or enjoying them
Speaker 1: in a different way than you used to. And that's
Speaker 1: why I like the subject so much, appreciating golf courses.
Speaker 1: So next time you're out on the course, try those
Speaker 1: two things and see what happens. Now there's a lot
Speaker 1: more meat on this bone, a lot more things you
Speaker 1: can do to appreciate golf courses more deeply. So let's
Speaker 1: bring on Jeff Shackelford to dig a little deeper into
Speaker 1: the idea of golf course appreciation. Jeff is one of
Speaker 1: the great living golf architecture writers. He is the author
Speaker 1: of many books, including the recent Golf Architecture for Normal People,
Speaker 1: which we'll discuss in this interview, and he also maintains
Speaker 1: an excellent substack newsletter called The Quadrilateral so make sure
Speaker 1: to check that out. It's a regular part of my
Speaker 1: reading diet. Honestly, if you're listening to this podcast, you
Speaker 1: probably already know Jeff, So let's just get to my
Speaker 1: interview with him, all right, Jeff Shackelford, Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2: Thanks Eric, good to talk to you about this interesting
Speaker 2: layered topic today.
Speaker 1: The topic is how to appreciate a golf course while
Speaker 1: you're playing it. And I think you're one of the
Speaker 1: best people in the world to talk to about this
Speaker 1: because you've thought about it, you've written about it for
Speaker 1: many years now, and in your recent book, Golf Architecture
Speaker 1: for Normal People, you lay out what I think is
Speaker 1: a pretty elegant system for appreciating golf courses. And that
Speaker 1: system goes by the acronym r EED, where each of
Speaker 1: those letters stands for a different question that you can
Speaker 1: ask about a golf course that you've just played. So
Speaker 1: I'll just quickly run through that and then and then
Speaker 1: we'll get into the meat of it.
Speaker 2: OK.
Speaker 1: Are is for remember and the question is can you
Speaker 1: remember something about each hole? E is for every day?
Speaker 1: Could you play the course every day and never tire
Speaker 1: of it? And D and this is very creative. Is
Speaker 1: for dog friendliness? Is this a course where you would
Speaker 1: gladly take a dog for a walk? So, first of all,
Speaker 1: what what made you come up with the red system?
Speaker 1: What was the reason you decided that there needed to
Speaker 1: be kind of a new way to approach evaluating or
Speaker 1: appreciating golf courses.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the brankings and systems and
Speaker 2: ways people have devised, I think are have really failed
Speaker 2: golf architecture because because they often emphasize so many things
Speaker 2: that are not important sustainable or what you'd want to
Speaker 2: play in a in a in a course, and they've
Speaker 2: really eaten away at the fun factor. And we really have,
Speaker 2: you know, finally are starting to get back to the
Speaker 2: word fun. And I you know, I've shared the story
Speaker 2: many times about uh so forgive me if you've heard this,
Speaker 2: but you know when Rustic Canyon open, people would say,
Speaker 2: and this was in two thousand and two, it's really
Speaker 2: it's a it's a fun course, like a condescending.
Speaker 1: If that's a bad thing, yeah, that's that's that's a demerit.
Speaker 2: And that was really that showed how far we had
Speaker 2: gotten away from what mattered. And and then that was
Speaker 2: just driven by the obsession with course rankings, with course
Speaker 2: rating and slope and numbers and difficulty, and golf's general
Speaker 2: tendency to try to overcompensate for what is sort of
Speaker 2: this defeat pastime by you know, manning it up by
Speaker 2: making you work and be miserable. Well, but nobody, nobody
Speaker 2: wants to play those courses on a regular basis. And
Speaker 2: so this was driven largely by by those two factors,
Speaker 2: the kind of the way rankings had drifted and the
Speaker 2: way architecture has drifted and it still does at times
Speaker 2: quite a bit from the fun element and people seizing
Speaker 2: on things that have absolutely nothing to do with their
Speaker 2: enjoyment of the game.
Speaker 1: So, you know, how do you think your system addressed
Speaker 1: some of those issues? Specifically, what were the new elements
Speaker 1: that you tried to introduce through this system that would
Speaker 1: kind of tackle the fun factor, tackle the things that
Speaker 1: people actually like and enjoying golf courses.
Speaker 2: The three main categories are designed to highlight the things
Speaker 2: that I always would ask myself about a course and
Speaker 2: the things that I think have the most resonance that
Speaker 2: are the most sustainable in terms of everyday fun golf.
Speaker 2: And I've been asking myself the first two questions for
Speaker 2: a very long time. The dog one came along a
Speaker 2: little bit later, as I you know, when we when
Speaker 2: I just gained a greater appreciation for for certain elements
Speaker 2: like scale and and just kind of the the underfoot
Speaker 2: test and the feeling of walking certain places versus others,
Speaker 2: and you know, hearing over the years, you know, you've
Speaker 2: we've all heard it, we alls, we've we've all said it.
Speaker 2: You know it when you when, of course feels like
Speaker 2: it's tour pro say this, it just feels like it's
Speaker 2: always been there, which I've always found to be an
Speaker 2: interesting comment, and it made me think, well, so what
Speaker 2: what's driving them to to say that? And a lot
Speaker 2: of people say that, and it gets back to elements
Speaker 2: of uh, just kind of the way it's built and
Speaker 2: the walkability and the feeling the scale, the drainage as
Speaker 2: you know, which was kind of a weird way to
Speaker 2: weave that in, but it really is, Yeah, I know
Speaker 2: from you know Andy, the first time I met and
Speaker 2: Johnson at Austin Golf Club, he had to listen to
Speaker 2: me go around and bitch and moan about all the
Speaker 2: catch basins and Pete die you know, why is this
Speaker 2: here right in the middle of the landing area. We
Speaker 2: get you need to deal with drainage, But but from
Speaker 2: the walk in the park standpoint, or from the golf standpoint,
Speaker 2: when your ball is on this little side hill thing
Speaker 2: with a bunch of divots around it, like, it's just
Speaker 2: why why can't that be over there? Why couldn't you
Speaker 2: have moved the water differently? And and those little things
Speaker 2: do impact your overall enjoyment of a course, And so
Speaker 2: I was trying to And plus for those of us
Speaker 2: who just don't have a great memory, the concept of
Speaker 2: a system was to just whittle it down to three
Speaker 2: questions and have something that made it easy to remember
Speaker 2: them by and and and I. You know, now the
Speaker 2: book's coming up on two years, and I still feel
Speaker 2: pretty good about it. I still have asked myself those
Speaker 2: questions about courses. And you know in my newsletter, I
Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, you do it for the major major
Speaker 2: championship venues. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I always think it's really interesting to subject the major
Speaker 1: championship venues to this test of what would it be
Speaker 1: like to play this course every day? Because often we
Speaker 1: don't think about that with major championship venues. In fact,
Speaker 1: the criteria that we usually have for assessing a championship course,
Speaker 1: or assessing what makes a good championship course is contrary
Speaker 1: to what would make it fun to play every day? Right,
Speaker 1: And so actually thinking about what would it be like
Speaker 1: to play Oakmont every day is actually really insightful. And
Speaker 1: you've probably found that too, right, I think so.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And of course some of these places, like Oakmont,
Speaker 2: they enjoy the misery. There's that's kind of the theme
Speaker 2: of the place, and that's just been the you know,
Speaker 2: the relentlessness of the design, that's their ethos whatever. Fine,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I don't know if that's always the case
Speaker 2: with some of these places. And and and I think
Speaker 2: the rushes help you. I think they help highlight changes
Speaker 2: to some of these venues that you wonder about, like
Speaker 2: why did they do that? And is this something you
Speaker 2: did for one week out of thirty years or is
Speaker 2: this something that is a good change for the championship
Speaker 2: but also for the everyday and enjoyment factor of for
Speaker 2: the people who play there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about these three questions is that
Speaker 1: is the way they sort of expand into different areas
Speaker 1: of architecture. Within each question, you can then consider certain
Speaker 1: characteristics of a golf course that you know, people who
Speaker 1: are familiar with golf architecture discussion already might be familiar with.
Speaker 1: But you know, when you think about can you remember
Speaker 1: something about each hole, what you're thinking about really is
Speaker 1: kind of coarse routing and how much variety the routing
Speaker 1: finds in the land, the variety of holes, the variety
Speaker 1: of features that you find on a whole, features that
Speaker 1: you know can be really bold and memorable, but at
Speaker 1: the same time not not feel contrived. You know, when
Speaker 1: you think of a course that you want to play
Speaker 1: every day, well, you kind of want to play a
Speaker 1: course every day where you have a good experience, where
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable. You want the course to be playable
Speaker 1: yet challenging. You want the course maybe to have some
Speaker 1: strategic elements because it's just not awfully interesting to play
Speaker 1: a purely penal course every single day. And then for
Speaker 1: the dog friendliness criterion, you know, you you talked a
Speaker 1: little bit about about the various elements of dog friendliness,
Speaker 1: but you know, the scale of the course is a
Speaker 1: kind of too big and brawny a piece of land
Speaker 1: to take your dog for a walk. We don't want
Speaker 1: to take our dogs for a walk on a mountain, right,
Speaker 1: we want we want kind of gently roll. We also
Speaker 1: don't want a desert, right that would be.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, or lava rocks and yeah.
Speaker 1: Gently rolling terrain with some variety is just what you
Speaker 1: want when you're walking a dog. You want that walkability factor,
Speaker 1: but also some interest in the land, and you want drainage.
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, it's decent and maybe not too unnatural looking.
Speaker 1: For whatever reason, we want to take our dogs for
Speaker 1: a walk and environments that feel natural. It's not as
Speaker 1: it's not as attractive to take your dog for a
Speaker 1: walk in your like suburban neighborhood as it is to
Speaker 1: take your dog for a walk on a nature trail, right,
Speaker 1: And that's kind.
Speaker 2: Of like the dog well of course too. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: want the smells and the meandering little paths and things
Speaker 2: going on and birds and squirrels, and we have similar
Speaker 2: sensibilities in But of course golfers are thinking of it
Speaker 2: from a different perspective than the dog, but they do
Speaker 2: sort of intersect.
Speaker 1: I think, how does experience factor into all of this
Speaker 1: for you? I know, obviously from talking to you over
Speaker 1: the years and also reading the book that that this
Speaker 1: criterion of experience, which you kind of slot under the
Speaker 1: everyday category. This this idea of experience has been complicated
Speaker 1: for you in the past. How how do you now
Speaker 1: think through the experience of playing a golf course which
Speaker 1: can involve things that don't strictly have to do with
Speaker 1: golf architecture.
Speaker 2: Of course, oh definitely. And a lot of people have
Speaker 2: different views of what's a great experience. You know, you
Speaker 2: and I probably would like to go out for a
Speaker 2: late nine with a with a dog by ourselves and
Speaker 2: not be bothered and just you know, drop another bathery now.
Speaker 2: And then there's some people who love the whole you know,
Speaker 2: we're a foursome and we're caddies and and we're at
Speaker 2: this high end place and they've got a great comfort station,
Speaker 2: and you know, so everybody has different views on that.
Speaker 2: But what I what I realized in one thing that's
Speaker 2: that's nice about getting a little bit older is you
Speaker 2: start to just realize there are certain things you cannot
Speaker 2: combat when discussing whatever it is a restaurant, a film,
Speaker 2: some kind of experience, a sporting event, even you can't
Speaker 2: separate the experience for people from the actual thing that
Speaker 2: you're you're trying to evaluate and then you know, I've
Speaker 2: had a couple things happen where I came to realize, well, wait,
Speaker 2: the experience sets you up and puts you in a
Speaker 2: in a mood that can that that impacts how you
Speaker 2: look at the course, and it can. I've heard so
Speaker 2: many times people judging a course and holding it against
Speaker 2: the course because either they went to a place and
Speaker 2: it was snooty and they were they felt uncomfortable and
Speaker 2: they never could focus on the architecture, or they went
Speaker 2: to a place, let's face it, you know, it wasn't
Speaker 2: well maintained or wasn't taken care of, or the people
Speaker 2: there were just kind of yeah, did you just tell?
Speaker 2: You could tell they weren't trying, and they held that
Speaker 2: against the course. And so yeah, I have this incredible
Speaker 2: movie theater up the street that's run by this great organization.
Speaker 2: And because I live in Los Angeles, we get we
Speaker 2: get all these amazing people come and do Q and
Speaker 2: a's after the films, you know, in trying to get
Speaker 2: attention for award seasons, but also when they just show
Speaker 2: a film because it's movie bus and you pay a
Speaker 2: little annual membership, you don't have previews. They announced the
Speaker 2: projectionist before the show. They've checked to make sure that
Speaker 2: the film is going to be situated properly and look good.
Speaker 2: The sounds amazing, The seats aren't anything special. It's an
Speaker 2: old theater from the thirties. But all those things allow
Speaker 2: you to then lock in on the film. And it's
Speaker 2: the same with a restaurant. You know, there's a great
Speaker 2: show right now on Apple about chefs wanting to get
Speaker 2: a Michelin Star, and the food is everything for those chefs.
Speaker 2: But as you see, there are other elements about the
Speaker 2: service and the presentation that make the food pop in
Speaker 2: a certain way that are essential to what they do,
Speaker 2: that have nothing to do with the artistry of just
Speaker 2: handling the food. And so I think the parallels with
Speaker 2: with a golf experience are pretty much identical really in
Speaker 2: terms of of the the power of the experience to
Speaker 2: allow you to really soak in a great course. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, the criterion of experience is so interesting to me
Speaker 1: because I do understand the reasons for trying to take
Speaker 1: it out of one's evaluation of a golf course. You know,
Speaker 1: probably the most convincing reason for that is that different
Speaker 1: days bring different experiences. You know, you might you might
Speaker 1: have a bad experience one day because you know, maybe
Speaker 1: there's a strow the or the starter is on your
Speaker 1: on your butt, or you know, whatever, whatever happens. You know,
Speaker 1: things happen and you show up on the next day
Speaker 1: and it's completely different. I think we've all seen that.
Speaker 1: But but I mean, there are some things that you
Speaker 1: can pick up on and if you don't, if you
Speaker 1: say I'm a person who's going to completely remove the
Speaker 1: notion of experience from evaluating this golf course, then I
Speaker 1: think that experience is going to come in anyway. That
Speaker 1: if you have a good experience, that that's going to
Speaker 1: make you feel charitable toward the golf course architecture. It's
Speaker 1: going to put you in a mood, as you said earlier,
Speaker 1: to receive the details of the golf architecture and you're
Speaker 1: going to look for reasons to like the golf course.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's the opposite case when you have
Speaker 1: a bad experience, you'll be kind of closed off to
Speaker 1: certain virtues of the course. So even if you try
Speaker 1: to take experience out of the equation, and it's going
Speaker 1: to come back anyway, So you might as well be
Speaker 1: conscious of it, right, which is what I think is
Speaker 1: smart about including it here in the everyday category.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I also you know that our rankings are
Speaker 2: based often on people going to a course once and
Speaker 2: evaluating it once. So to your point, instead of fighting it,
Speaker 2: why not highlight it and and and and and just
Speaker 2: included in the equation in a way that you I think, Well,
Speaker 2: I just know a lot of people who don't separate
Speaker 2: it very well, and maybe just knowing going in or
Speaker 2: being able to sound off it. God, we we just
Speaker 2: couldn't enjoy ourselves because our host was so worried about
Speaker 2: the group behind us and the marshall, you know, lurking
Speaker 2: in the woods. And but at least when you become
Speaker 2: aware of that, maybe you'll you'll set that aside when
Speaker 2: you start to, yeah, ask the other questions about what
Speaker 2: did the architect really do here? And is this a
Speaker 2: place that in my one playing I can really I can,
Speaker 2: I can appreciate or not appreciate depending on the design.
Speaker 2: And you know, and that's another reason I I I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people should have who do evaluation
Speaker 2: and take it seriously should also just walk a course
Speaker 2: without their clubs. I know this is it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: It's definitely a good thing. But it's another way that
Speaker 2: because so much emotion gets involved, not just in the
Speaker 2: experiential part, but just in your own game when you're
Speaker 2: playing a place, and it's very hard to separate those things.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're just not feeling right that day,
Speaker 2: or your swing feels like garbage, or if you're playing
Speaker 2: incredibly well and you have the round of your life.
Speaker 2: I mean, how many times have we hurt? Somebody declare
Speaker 2: that course was the greatest thing ever, and then they get, yeah,
Speaker 2: I also shot my lowest score, you know that I've
Speaker 2: ever shot on a place it's not where my home
Speaker 2: goeres or whatever it is. So those are those are
Speaker 2: elements too that that their emotions you just are never
Speaker 2: going to. And and again when you watch, when you
Speaker 2: see a film with a with a great crowd of
Speaker 2: fellow movie buffs who are locked in, not looking on
Speaker 2: their phone and making noise with popcorn, there's a communal
Speaker 2: element there that probably allows you to or maybe even
Speaker 2: makes you like the film more than you should sometimes,
Speaker 2: But it's just better to be conscious of those things
Speaker 2: that might distract you and and make it personal in
Speaker 2: ways that that aren't fair to the the.
Speaker 1: Architecture of the course, or what's the best concert you've
Speaker 1: ever been to? It's it doesn't usually have to do
Speaker 1: with the technical virtues of the music. It has to
Speaker 1: do with the with the setting and the crowd and
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and that that whole thing it is,
Speaker 1: it is very much inextricably part of it. So we're
Speaker 1: talking about things that that make you want to play
Speaker 1: a course every day. And I've thought about this notion
Speaker 1: of every day a lot recently, and I wonder what
Speaker 1: you make of the idea that you know it, Is
Speaker 1: there such a thing as a great course that you
Speaker 1: really wouldn't want to play every day, or even a
Speaker 1: great course that that you would just want.
Speaker 2: To play once?
Speaker 1: And it's an and it's a maybe for a variety
Speaker 1: of reasons and excellent experience just that once, but it's
Speaker 1: just not the type of course that you want to
Speaker 1: play every day. Is there such a thing as a
Speaker 1: course that can be great but be described in that way?
Speaker 2: Well, not to pick on oakmat you mentioned it, but
Speaker 2: it's I think that there are examples like that that
Speaker 2: are that have a certain approach and and the the
Speaker 2: a certain vision and it's what they do. You know,
Speaker 2: I think you could almost put in some ways Pine
Speaker 2: Valley and that that category, although it's just not nearly
Speaker 2: as hard as it once was. They clean up the
Speaker 2: sand now, and yeah, the games is the equipment's different
Speaker 2: because I played there uh a decent while ago when
Speaker 2: it was brutal and anytime you were in the sand,
Speaker 2: you were in a footprint. Now they break all that
Speaker 2: and you can hit a recovery. And so yeah, I think,
Speaker 2: I think, I think there are examples of places that
Speaker 2: that Yeah, you say, well, this is a great work
Speaker 2: of art and I could play here again, but yeah, no,
Speaker 2: is this the place I would want to set up
Speaker 2: shop and just would make me want to keep coming
Speaker 2: up out every day. No, No, would make me want
Speaker 2: to quite eventually because it just beat me up too much.
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Speaker 1: let's get back to the episode and then on the
Speaker 1: other side of that, spectrum. Maybe you have a course
Speaker 1: like Mammoth Dunes, which I'm not necessarily going to say
Speaker 1: that's a great golf course the way that Oakmont is
Speaker 1: a great golf course. But Mammoth Dunes, if you play
Speaker 1: that course every day, it might become kind of easy, right,
Speaker 1: It might become a little bit repetitive because you realize
Speaker 1: that there are some funnels that are helping you out
Speaker 1: and you just you know, you're shooting your best round
Speaker 1: ever pretty much pretty much every time. Maybe that's a
Speaker 1: bit of an exaggeration with Mammoth Dunes, but you know,
Speaker 1: you want a course to have a course that you
Speaker 1: play every day, you kind of want it to be
Speaker 1: a little bit challenging, to put up some resistance so
Speaker 1: that you have a reason to come back and play
Speaker 1: it again. But of course, Mammoth Dunes is in the
Speaker 1: situation where most of the players who play it are
Speaker 1: just going to play at that once and they're going
Speaker 1: to have that kind of roller coaster ride, and they're
Speaker 1: not going to have the experience of going back multiple
Speaker 1: times and realizing that, Okay, maybe maybe there's a little
Speaker 1: bit less to this course than I initially thought. So
Speaker 1: maybe there are courses even even on the other side
Speaker 1: of that that are they're almost too easy to play
Speaker 1: every day.
Speaker 2: Well, and and then you get into the situation of course,
Speaker 2: are complexes or clubs or whatever it is with multiple courses, Well,
Speaker 2: you know there you have liedo, You've got you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes a design, yeah, we have it. We know there
Speaker 2: are a lot of places with thirty six holes where
Speaker 2: one course is a little bit easier and more fun
Speaker 2: and the other one is is really difficult, and and
Speaker 2: that's a great thing to have. And they may have
Speaker 2: been designed knowing that that was the case. So I
Speaker 2: think again it's it's it's not unreasonable to take that
Speaker 2: into account when looking at a course, that it was
Speaker 2: part of a a complex here, and each one fits
Speaker 2: certain kinds of tastes and and and so that is
Speaker 2: where you know, but I still think the everyday question
Speaker 2: would hopefully get at, you know, whether that the architect
Speaker 2: made it interesting enough. But let you win sometimes, let
Speaker 2: you hit a good shot and be rewarded and put
Speaker 2: enough nuance in to be something that would be fresh
Speaker 2: enough on a day to day basis. I don't think
Speaker 2: there's enough of that, And that's one of the reasons
Speaker 2: that I really believe strongly in that question that we
Speaker 2: still don't have enough design. That's that's thinking that way,
Speaker 2: that that when the holes over here, this whole place
Speaker 2: totally different than it did, you know it does when
Speaker 2: the hole's over there, and takes those kinds of things
Speaker 2: into account. I think we have a long way to go.
Speaker 2: It's kind of sad that the old course is still
Speaker 2: the one that that is the uh, that that has
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff going on on a on a
Speaker 2: crazy level, and that that nobody's in a quest to
Speaker 2: try to to to create something with that kind of
Speaker 2: complexity but still be playable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Old Course is the ultimate example of that
Speaker 1: course that you discover new layers of on on repe plays.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean there is something just unmistakably pleasurable
Speaker 1: about a course that that has those kinds of layers there.
Speaker 1: There's nothing like it when you when you suddenly find
Speaker 1: a nuance that that you hadn't noticed before on a
Speaker 1: previous play. And so that as a as a category
Speaker 1: of greatness just makes makes a lot of sense. So
Speaker 1: I'd like to talk about another category now, another question.
Speaker 1: Maybe we can dig into remember a little bit here, okay,
Speaker 1: and remember pertains to the variety of the course or
Speaker 1: the way that certain features are holes sticking stick in
Speaker 1: your memory and and kind of you know, assert themselves
Speaker 1: as as unique or or remarkable in some way. And yeah,
Speaker 1: this is this is a you know, one of the
Speaker 1: easiest ways to think about a golf course after you
Speaker 1: play it. Can you remember each hole? And if you can't,
Speaker 1: then hey, maybe maybe there wasn't maybe there wasn't quite
Speaker 1: enough there. Within this category, you talk about the routing
Speaker 1: of a golf course, and and in your book you
Speaker 1: talk about all the ways in which it's really hard
Speaker 1: to from a golfer's perspective to assess a routing. Do
Speaker 1: you think there is anything that when you're playing a
Speaker 1: course you can you can identify about the quality of
Speaker 1: the routing or is that to you just kind of
Speaker 1: a you know, too difficult of a task.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's a doable task. Yeah. I just
Speaker 2: I caution people because there's there are a lot of
Speaker 2: times where people are hard on a routing and sometimes
Speaker 2: they don't know some of the things that that some
Speaker 2: of the limitations the architect faced. But I do think
Speaker 2: it's something you can still do after the round when
Speaker 2: you've you've sort of set your emotions aside and you've
Speaker 2: you've you've had a had a had a beer or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you can reflect on it and you're not there
Speaker 2: trying to to play the place and that and that's
Speaker 2: why I like it as a question, you know. Uh,
Speaker 2: And it's one I've used for a long time because
Speaker 2: there were It's amazing how many times you'll play a place,
Speaker 2: you'll be out there for for four and a half
Speaker 2: five hours, and holes are a blur as you're you're
Speaker 2: on the way home, and that's without having too much
Speaker 2: to drink. It's just there's just nothing interesting about the
Speaker 2: place or the more recently we've seen more places that
Speaker 2: are just throwing everything into the mix and it's a
Speaker 2: blur for a different reason. I you know, it's a
Speaker 2: little bit of I think some Mike Strands courses can
Speaker 2: fall into this category. And there's some some architects from
Speaker 2: the Pete Dice school that that got into you know
Speaker 2: and have a big budget and they were told to
Speaker 2: create something Instagram friendly and dramatic and there's just so
Speaker 2: much going on that there there's a blur effect there
Speaker 2: as well. And so it's finding that that place in
Speaker 2: between that that that the holes all have enough variety
Speaker 2: in terms of the way they bend and turn and
Speaker 2: move around the property, and enough features to be exciting
Speaker 2: without uh, without just all kind of blending together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's this balance of simplicity and complexity, and what
Speaker 1: you're saying about some modern courses having this kind of
Speaker 1: information overload effect is really right on the money. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's a problem I have all the time where it,
Speaker 1: you know, the course just is a little bit too
Speaker 1: eager to do something distinctive, and in the process of
Speaker 1: doing that, there's too much distinctiveness and then all you know,
Speaker 1: as you say, blurs blurs together. That's an issue that
Speaker 1: that kind of push to the other side of that balance.
Speaker 1: There needs to be a little bit of simplicity and
Speaker 1: elegance in order for something to be memorable, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the difficulty is a lot of people still
Speaker 2: design with a like chefs trying to get a Michelin star.
Speaker 2: They designed trying to get a ranking in a in
Speaker 2: a Best New Award or a spot in a on
Speaker 2: a list, and they feel like if if there's there's
Speaker 2: a lot of subtlety that it that it is not
Speaker 2: Instagram friendly and does not pop that first time to
Speaker 2: the to the person who's rating it, which is again
Speaker 2: why I love, you know, the idea, and again I
Speaker 2: know it's not gonna happen, but walking the course without
Speaker 2: your clubs and just taking in in the course separate
Speaker 2: of all the emotions that come with with playing around.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 2: tricky thing for an architect too. And I think this
Speaker 2: is where Corn Crenshaw are just in a you know,
Speaker 2: another league right now because they are able.
Speaker 3: To to slip those things into their designs and throw in
Speaker 3: some quirk at times and kind of managed to have
Speaker 3: it all balance in a way that is pleasing the first.
Speaker 2: Time, but has those those layers that you hope for
Speaker 2: on repeat planes. Because there's nothing worse than a course
Speaker 2: that gets boring, you know, spending all that money and
Speaker 2: all that effort. And we've seen it a lot, you know,
Speaker 2: just a lot of Tom Fozzio courses, Reeze Jones courses
Speaker 2: where they're redoing them after ten years once it's because
Speaker 2: they got their boring. There's nothing there. It was all
Speaker 2: just kind of throwing things out there, and and and
Speaker 2: there's no substance there. There's just it, and people, even
Speaker 2: people who aren't geeks like us, just recognize it's lacking
Speaker 2: something and they want to know why. And it's it's
Speaker 2: that lack of those little touches. You know.
Speaker 1: It drives me crazy is when I hear people talk
Speaker 1: about how Core and Crenshaw or are boring or repetitive.
Speaker 1: And I mean, on the one hand, I sort of
Speaker 1: get that. If you look at a picture of a
Speaker 1: corn crunchhot course and compare it to another picture of
Speaker 1: another corn Crunch shot course, Okay, there are some broad
Speaker 1: similarities there. Yeah, they like the lion's mouth greens, and
Speaker 1: there are certain kind of motifs in their architecture. But look,
Speaker 1: just walk the course, play the course, and tell me
Speaker 1: that it's that it's boring or that there's not enough
Speaker 1: there of interest. Those courses are meant to be played.
Speaker 1: They're not, you know, designed for Instagram, and and that's
Speaker 1: part of what makes them really great. And that's what
Speaker 1: gives them layers too, right, because if you play them
Speaker 1: multiple times, then you'll discover more and more. It's not
Speaker 1: all it's not showing you everything all at once, holding
Speaker 1: a little bit in reserve and for me, that's a
Speaker 1: really great characteristic of a golf course. It's hard to
Speaker 1: achieve as an architect, It's very hard.
Speaker 2: And it's why, uh, you know, that's why I love
Speaker 2: Mackenzie and George Thomas the most, because I you know,
Speaker 2: I got to experience a lot of their work, but
Speaker 2: also because they were they were masters at at at
Speaker 2: that first impression beauty and excitement element, but they also
Speaker 2: were able to work in and and and because they
Speaker 2: took more time than a lot of people take now
Speaker 2: and just paid attention to to those details that and
Speaker 2: they built green complexes that had wings and different things
Speaker 2: going on that also helped allow for for that kind
Speaker 2: of layering, if you will. And uh, it's why they're
Speaker 2: just in another league. And you know, then there's certain
Speaker 2: filmmakers who have the same ability. They can make a
Speaker 2: film that is exciting the first time, but you just
Speaker 2: keep watching it. You you turn it on when you're
Speaker 2: flipping the channel, and there's there's stuff you see in
Speaker 2: scenes that you didn't notice that first time. And a
Speaker 2: lot of that just comes from from really having a
Speaker 2: great deal of care about the details and maybe even
Speaker 2: being obsessive about the details. And spending the time in
Speaker 2: the field to really visualize how a good player would
Speaker 2: play a whole, how a bad player would play it,
Speaker 2: and thinking through those details. And sometimes a lot of
Speaker 2: time that stuff gets lost when you're in a hurry. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know what.
Speaker 1: This is resonating a lot for me right now, this
Speaker 1: film analogy, because you know, my favorite movies are are
Speaker 1: probably the ones where you watch it the first time
Speaker 1: and you think, well, that was a pleasant experience, but
Speaker 1: is there a lot there is there? I mean it
Speaker 1: just you know, it just kind of passed by and
Speaker 1: I had fun and all right, and then you watch
Speaker 1: it again and you discover, oh, oh, actually there's a
Speaker 1: lot there. Actually, actually this is this is really meaningful,
Speaker 1: This is really well made. Oh look at that detail
Speaker 1: and and those are Yeah. I guess that has uh,
Speaker 1: that taste can carry over to golf courses, and this
Speaker 1: is I guess a matter of taste. Like some people
Speaker 1: have a taste for the big and the bold and
Speaker 1: the avert a little bit more, I guess you and
Speaker 1: I are leaning a little bit more biased, a little
Speaker 1: bit more towards the subtle end of the spectrum. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess that's it's a matter of personal taste, but
Speaker 1: there's a good argument for for subtlety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes and and that was one of the
Speaker 2: things that for in doing the book and just getting
Speaker 2: a little bit older, is you you realize, you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes there are holes not you know, not every hole
Speaker 2: can be a dreaded signature hole that is a is
Speaker 2: a masterpiece. Sometimes there are holes on great courses that
Speaker 2: are well sometimes they just had to get you from
Speaker 2: one area to another. But but there are also just
Speaker 2: holes that set up the big ones, and so they
Speaker 2: are more subtle because you can't sometimes you just can't
Speaker 2: have every hole hit you over the head. It's just
Speaker 2: not a fun But maybe this hole, you know, you
Speaker 2: need to hit a draw on it, and if you do,
Speaker 2: you get an easy second shot and and you think, well,
Speaker 2: that's not that big of a deal. But then the
Speaker 2: next one is the big finishing hole, let's say, and
Speaker 2: it's you know, a big bending hole and there's water
Speaker 2: on the right and it there ebbs and flows to
Speaker 2: a to I think of anything a film, a meal,
Speaker 2: and a golf course that things are. Sometimes when somebody's
Speaker 2: really caring about what they do, it's placing those things
Speaker 2: to set you up for the other parts. And then yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean the same thing with an album, a great
Speaker 2: album of songs. You don't want every song to be
Speaker 2: hard driving. There's some there's some stuff that slows it
Speaker 2: down or and the great album are are almost always
Speaker 2: a mix of different things, and but somehow they all
Speaker 2: come together and work together as a as a unit, and.
Speaker 1: All the slots pretty neatly into the remember category, because
Speaker 1: if you know, if you have an album of all
Speaker 1: perspective singles, and then you're just gonna get a little exhausted.
Speaker 1: But if you have that variety of the of the
Speaker 1: EBB and the flow, you're just more likely to remember
Speaker 1: the high points and also maybe remember the the more
Speaker 1: you know, chill points of the album too, because they
Speaker 1: they were different and and that's what that's what our
Speaker 1: memories kind of react to, and it and it it's
Speaker 1: pleasurable to have this kind of variety, you know, we
Speaker 1: that's what There's something in us as human beings that
Speaker 1: that seeks that out. And you know, well designed golf
Speaker 1: courses are are aware of that. So I'm curious about, uh,
Speaker 1: what your process is nowadays when you look at a
Speaker 1: new golf course. I'm not sure if the most interesting
Speaker 1: way to ask you this would be to talk about
Speaker 1: what you do when you go to a new major
Speaker 1: championship golf course or something like that and and try
Speaker 1: to assess it, try to see things or what you
Speaker 1: do when you play a new golf course. But I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if you have a kind of process that you
Speaker 1: go through too to notice details and to pick out
Speaker 1: some things to analyze about a course. Are there are
Speaker 1: there go team methods in your in your bag for that?
Speaker 2: Uh, not not anything that stands out. It's more of
Speaker 2: just trying to see everything in order and then asking
Speaker 2: those questions after if I'm not gonna if I'm just walking,
Speaker 2: of course and not playing it, I still love to
Speaker 2: have at least some golf balls with me to throw
Speaker 2: around and and uh do the do the Kim Brown Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and see how some contours work and features work, because yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's not as common as it used to be,
Speaker 2: but there and I have this this sticky features thing
Speaker 2: in my remembered category because you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: the best features in golf are a little bump in
Speaker 2: the middle of a green that that that that you
Speaker 2: as a golfer, if you're playing there a lot, remember
Speaker 2: from the fairway, and you know, you know, I can
Speaker 2: work it off of that little thing, and I like
Speaker 2: to see how those things work, or how a little
Speaker 2: fall off by greens work, and just kind of the
Speaker 2: shaping and the the gracefulness of the contours. I just
Speaker 2: you still can't replicate that without ideally, you know, hitting
Speaker 2: little shots. But if you're just there and you don't
Speaker 2: want to be that person who's just dropping balls everywhere,
Speaker 2: you know, you just can't. At least you can throw
Speaker 2: a few around and not leave some divots. And and
Speaker 2: that's another thing I love to think about too. I
Speaker 2: don't know if this really gets to your question, but
Speaker 2: one of the things that when I look at at
Speaker 2: a green, I often will look at and go, well
Speaker 2: could I? And again there shouldn't be every green, but
Speaker 2: quite a few. I think it's really fun to stand
Speaker 2: there and go, well, what if this was my practice
Speaker 2: chipping green somewhere? Would I ever get bored just dropping
Speaker 2: shots all around this and playing the different quadrants or
Speaker 2: playing little shots into it? And I don't know, I
Speaker 2: just for whatever reason, that is something that dates back
Speaker 2: to like really childhood almost that I think of a
Speaker 2: green that way, and I love a great practice chipping
Speaker 2: green that that does that. There aren't a lot of them,
Speaker 2: but there are some. And I think it applies to
Speaker 2: the ones on the course too, that it tells you
Speaker 2: that there's there's a lot going on there without having
Speaker 2: to really drop a shag bag and start hitting a
Speaker 2: lot of shots. You can just look at it. I
Speaker 2: think anybody who plays the game a little bit can
Speaker 2: look at a green and go, oh, I could spend
Speaker 2: all day on this green. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point. You know, often when
Speaker 1: we talk about looking at green analyzing greens, we talk
Speaker 1: about their relationship to the rest of the hole and
Speaker 1: how it functions strategically, And that obviously is a valid
Speaker 1: way of going about it and judging the effectiveness of
Speaker 1: the design of the grain or the coherence of it.
Speaker 1: But I think it's equally important to do what you're
Speaker 1: describing here, to consider whether there are interesting short game
Speaker 1: scenarios around this green. How you know, say I play
Speaker 1: this course every day, I'm going to miss on all
Speaker 1: sides of this green to all different types of pins.
Speaker 1: What would that be like? You know, kind of trying
Speaker 1: to imagine what that would be like gets you a
Speaker 1: long way to understanding how successful the design of this
Speaker 1: green is. Because if it's all pretty one dimensional, if
Speaker 1: you're hitting the same kind of shot, say splashing out
Speaker 1: of sand to you know, a raised platform just pretty
Speaker 1: much in every place around the green, you know, you
Speaker 1: could say that there's not much there, especially if that's
Speaker 1: every grain on the course. But if it's if it's
Speaker 1: a different shot every single time, well that's a kind
Speaker 1: of architectural achievement, isn't it.
Speaker 2: I think. So that said, I also, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't say that in a way that I think people
Speaker 2: should be you should just be obsessive about trying to
Speaker 2: create that. It's just when it works, it works. There
Speaker 2: are situations where, I mean a lot of the time,
Speaker 2: I think a green should just feel like a natural
Speaker 2: extension of the land and the fairway, and the best ones,
Speaker 2: frankly and are usually that sense where you don't feel
Speaker 2: like you're just going along and all of a sudden
Speaker 2: there's this raised thing with bunkers all around it, and
Speaker 2: it's just it was given way more attention than the
Speaker 2: rest of the hole. You ultimately do want it to
Speaker 2: feel like an extension of the whole, but when you're
Speaker 2: asking questions about a course and wanting to figure out
Speaker 2: if you feel like somebody really puts something into this place.
Speaker 2: I think it is an interesting barometer to think about
Speaker 2: that of all the little the different shots around it,
Speaker 2: or or even just kind of into it from you
Speaker 2: know whatever, fifty yards and and just the ways you
Speaker 2: can work the ball off features. And that's yeah, I
Speaker 2: just uh, I think that. I think most of the
Speaker 2: best courses have those little those little and you see
Speaker 2: it with tor pros who don't know a thing about architecture,
Speaker 2: but when they when they play a place where they
Speaker 2: feel like that the green has elements that they can
Speaker 2: work something off of and play that aggressively conservative shot
Speaker 2: that a lot of guys try to play, they respond
Speaker 2: to it. They like that that course. They just they
Speaker 2: it feels like the architect gave them a chance to
Speaker 2: to take a risk and win and we'll we'll punish
Speaker 2: them as they should be if they they misplay their shot.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what most people, whether you're an
Speaker 2: elite world class player or an every day golfer, wants
Speaker 2: to have in a in a course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great place to stand, is is that
Speaker 1: fifty yards an end point, and just imagine the different
Speaker 1: shots to the different pins. Are those interesting? Are those varied?
Speaker 1: You know, if you have to lay up to this area,
Speaker 1: if you end up somehow in that area, is there
Speaker 1: is there a challenge there? And yeah, that is as
Speaker 1: you say, something that pros respond to. It is the
Speaker 1: is this green kind of rewarding the most precise possible
Speaker 1: shot that I could hit?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Now, and if you're standing there on a four
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five yard hole and you're fifty yards
Speaker 2: out and the shots look look really tough, well, that
Speaker 2: might be that that maybe that that green was is
Speaker 2: a little much for that length of the holes. So,
Speaker 2: I mean, that's getting into some to the weeds a
Speaker 2: little bit in terms of just your evaluation of a course.
Speaker 2: But I think they're all They're all fun questions to
Speaker 2: ponder when you're, you know, having those great little debates
Speaker 2: about a place.
Speaker 1: So your new letter, Jeff, focuses on the majors. It,
Speaker 1: you know, it generally covers golf at this point. The
Speaker 1: original concept at least was to cover the majors closely,
Speaker 1: and you still do that more than more than anything else,
Speaker 1: I suppose, But when you look at the major championship
Speaker 1: venues of twenty twenty six, we have obviously a gust National,
Speaker 1: but we also have Shinnecock Hills. We have ironom Ink
Speaker 1: for the PGA Championship, we have Royal Birkdale for the
Speaker 1: Open Championship. Which of those courses stands out to you
Speaker 1: as one that would really thrive in a red system evaluation?
Speaker 2: Well, I haven't been to Ironomics since the most recent
Speaker 2: work by Gil. I did watch it during whatever it
Speaker 2: was was it.
Speaker 1: There have been a couple of PGA Tour events there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been kind of soggy, it's been Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: kind of a bummer that the conditions weren't weren't for it.
Speaker 2: And I'm not I gets they've been teasing all sorts
Speaker 2: of amazing imagery on I think the official PGA account.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing it was all shot kind of an early
Speaker 2: fall because everything looks just so good and and the
Speaker 2: and the and the false fronts and different stuff going on.
Speaker 2: You know, again, to our conversation about greens, you want
Speaker 2: to just drop balls all around and hit cool those shots.
Speaker 2: It looks like it has that. Unfortunately, when they go
Speaker 2: there in May they're really going to need a good
Speaker 2: early spring or else it's going to be you know,
Speaker 2: a different kind of soft not the not the end
Speaker 2: of summer kind of thing. But yeah, so we'll see.
Speaker 2: But that that one to me more than just knowing
Speaker 2: the property. I mean, Shinnacock is amazing. It is really hard.
Speaker 1: Yes, if you play that course every day, better be
Speaker 1: a pretty pretty good golfer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know when people, of course, when you
Speaker 2: inevitably people want to have the argument National versus Shinnecock.
Speaker 2: And I'm one of those people. Even though National is
Speaker 2: a pretty intense piece of property as is Cock. Uh,
Speaker 2: but it still has a lot more in the way
Speaker 2: of holes that are that are just a little more
Speaker 2: gettable for most mortals and fun and and wild and
Speaker 2: crazy and enticing Shenna. Cock's a little more straightforward. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I just in terms of that, you know, the everyday sensibility. Uh.
Speaker 2: And Brokedale's a lovely property. Yeah, I'm I'm a little
Speaker 2: lary of the changes they've made which were strictly made
Speaker 2: for the tournament and moving people around, which are just
Speaker 2: just crap reasons to me to be changing holes and
Speaker 2: getting a par three that points at the clubhouse. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not. I'm that. You know, it's a cool clubhouse,
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: It's you know, work of modern architecture. But do you
Speaker 1: do you want to disrupt the routing of course, just
Speaker 1: so one of the court, one of the par three's
Speaker 1: has a backdrop like like you if you don't have
Speaker 1: an ocean, then you have the clubhouse. Let's point it there.
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a little hacky.
Speaker 2: It it's it's concerning. And there there was a horrible
Speaker 2: log jam at the fourteenth hole. I get it. But
Speaker 2: the front nine there especially is just a really cool
Speaker 2: little walk, more intimate. The back nine is a little
Speaker 2: more big, and there's dunes and stuff going on and
Speaker 2: and some and it's a it's a great kind of
Speaker 2: the way and that's why the players respond to it.
Speaker 2: Another reason they respond is there's not a lot of quirk.
Speaker 2: There's no blindness really, so it's always one of the
Speaker 2: players favorites. That's probably to me. The only deficiency of
Speaker 2: it is it doesn't have some of the some of
Speaker 2: the funky stuff that you you love on a great links.
Speaker 2: But in terms of a uh, this is a long
Speaker 2: build up to your question. But yeah, in terms of
Speaker 2: a first hole to last hole experience, the Birkdale I
Speaker 2: knew certainly would be one of those right up there,
Speaker 2: just in terms of just a fun, uh exercise in
Speaker 2: good golf that that just slowly builds and has some
Speaker 2: some some big dramatic moments towards the end. That that
Speaker 2: I think most people love that in a golf course,
Speaker 2: kind of peaking, you know, building, building and then peaking
Speaker 2: near the end. But not every course can do that
Speaker 2: because of the land. And you know, I wrote about
Speaker 2: Cyprus Point last year in the eighteenth hole, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it peaks it it peaks at probably sixteen or seventeen,
Speaker 2: so you know, not everybody's a fan of seventeen. But
Speaker 2: the settings, yeah, it's just incredible and that and that's
Speaker 2: just the land that was just in the clubhouse was
Speaker 2: always going to be where it was. Every land planner
Speaker 2: put it there before architects were involved. And but yeah, Birkedale, Yeah,
Speaker 2: shinnecock is you don't get me wrong, It's it's amazing,
Speaker 2: but it is it is a beast. It's really hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and your system kind of causes people to value
Speaker 1: places like Royal Birkdale that have land that is so
Speaker 1: well suited to a dog walk and so well suited
Speaker 1: to everyday uses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what's.
Speaker 1: Matt about lynks Land is that even if there weren't
Speaker 1: a golf course there, you'd want to walk there. And
Speaker 1: people did walk there before there were golf courses on
Speaker 1: on the links Land or on the heathlands around around London.
Speaker 1: That's what those pieces of land were used for because
Speaker 1: they're so well suited to that purpose. It's exactly where
Speaker 1: you want to take your dog. I'm not sure you'd
Speaker 1: take your dog to the Shinnakak Hills property.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm feeling somebody would appear fairly quickly too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I might go to the experience the end of
Speaker 1: the attention. But but yeah, very interesting. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've to go back to an earlier point you made
Speaker 1: about Ironomic. I've heard the greens there. I haven't played
Speaker 1: the course, but i've heard the greens. They are absolutely sensational,
Speaker 1: and it's I'm pre disappointed that that's just not going
Speaker 1: to show, you know, and then we're just not gonna
Speaker 1: we're just not gonna get a full sense of that.
Speaker 2: So we might key, but it's everybody in Phillies are.
Speaker 2: I've already heard from several people like, don't get your
Speaker 2: hopes up for yeah, great for August. Yeah, or I'm
Speaker 2: the fall, Like I said, those that imagery I'm pretty
Speaker 2: sure was just just the beginning of fall, and everything
Speaker 2: just looks so good and and yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 2: just don't love the date of the PGA in May
Speaker 2: for this reason. And they they continue to insist that
Speaker 2: they have more options. But it's bizarre to think about.
Speaker 2: But May is a really odd time of year in
Speaker 2: a lot of parts of the country. Uh, it's starting
Speaker 2: to get too hot in the south. Uh, it's it's
Speaker 2: on the West coast, it's foggy, and and it's it's
Speaker 2: it's hard to get things quite as good as you
Speaker 2: can in June. The northeast. It's too early. Michigan Chicago area,
Speaker 2: it's definitely too early. But then you know, there are
Speaker 2: years where people will tell you, well, you know, Long
Speaker 2: Island was amazing in late May and and but we
Speaker 2: had a good spring. So so we'll see. But uh,
Speaker 2: I think it's an interesting set of venues and and
Speaker 2: it there's gonna be a lot of chatter, especially around
Speaker 2: the changes at Burked just because the players love it
Speaker 2: so much and we were just there in twenty seventeen
Speaker 2: and it was an incredible open, So absolutely, yeah, so well,
Speaker 2: and it's just funny how these narratives build. So it's
Speaker 2: always kind of fun to watch that, although we don't
Speaker 2: get them quite like we used because the guys don't
Speaker 2: go there for their their practice trips. Although that that
Speaker 2: trend may come back and in vogue again. Who knows, Oh,
Speaker 2: we'll see that.
Speaker 1: Guys seem to like it, don't seem to like to travel.
Speaker 2: But yeah, right now, it's let my data person tell
Speaker 2: me how to play the course, which I just think
Speaker 2: is so bizarre and it's just so strange. I get
Speaker 2: when it's a pain in the ass to get to
Speaker 2: a place and they just don't do it. Fine, but
Speaker 2: when you're relying on somebody else who's looking at Google
Speaker 2: Earth to tell you how to play a course, which
Speaker 2: is something I cover in the book, but not in
Speaker 2: the vein of a of a tour pro who should
Speaker 2: be somewhat self reliant first of all, and also play
Speaker 2: the course and discuss it with Caddy. Maybe. But Google
Speaker 2: is a great tool, but it's not it's not going
Speaker 2: to answer all your questions about how to play a course.
Speaker 1: What you're talking about, you can just draw lines and
Speaker 1: figure out exactly how you need to play a course. Jeff, Well,
Speaker 1: that's a whole other episode that we could record together.
Speaker 1: But as always a pleasure talking to you, Jeff. I'm
Speaker 1: looking forward to your coverage this year through the Quadrilateral
Speaker 1: and thanks for coming on the pun.
Speaker 2: All right, thanks Jarrett.
Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Will.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: Jeff Shackelford actually has another book introducing concepts of golf
Speaker 1: architecture called Grounds for Golf. This was published originally a
Speaker 1: number of years ago, and there's actually going to be
Speaker 1: a second edition of Grounds for Golf coming out this June,
Speaker 1: so keep an eye out for I think that's a
Speaker 1: great book. It's one that I've very commonly recommended to
Speaker 1: people when they've asked for an introductory book to golf architecture,
Speaker 1: I usually point them to Anatomy of a Golf Course
Speaker 1: by Tom Doak, Golf Architecture by Alistair Mackenzie, and Grounds
Speaker 1: for Golf by Jeff Shackelford. So a new edition of
Speaker 1: that book coming up, keep an eye out for that
Speaker 1: in June. All right, thank you for listening, and we'll
Speaker 1: be back again soon with another episode.