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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're

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Speaker 2: a weekly reminder that whenever there's bad things happening, there's

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Speaker 2: people trying to do good things and they often succeed.

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Speaker 2: And my name is Margaret Kiljoy and I'm your host

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Speaker 2: and my guest today it's Jamie Loftus. And I waited

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Speaker 2: until you were taking a drink before I said your

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Speaker 2: name and made you have to answer.

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Speaker 3: I knew you were going to do that, and I

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Speaker 3: took the drink and I feel like it was a

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Speaker 3: self sabotaging thing that I just did.

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Speaker 2: It's all right, Jamie, How would you describe yourself if

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Speaker 2: I didn't bother to write a sentence into this script

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Speaker 2: that is your bio? Oh?

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Speaker 1: You know I podcast? Yeah, that's you know.

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Speaker 3: You want to say more to make yourself feel better.

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Speaker 3: But it kind of boils down to that.

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Speaker 2: I've probably told you and I've told the audience this

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Speaker 2: a thousand times about the stress stream I had where

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Speaker 2: I had to explain at a party what I do

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Speaker 2: for a living.

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Speaker 1: It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.

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Speaker 3: Never ask someone what they're are to, like, I end

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Speaker 3: up doing it because what else are you going to

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Speaker 3: ask someone, but like.

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Speaker 2: How's that weather?

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Speaker 3: It's so yeah, You're like what I do is like,

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Speaker 3: don't worry about it. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. If you

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Speaker 3: don't know already, you don't want to know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah exactly. Well who isn't embarrassed because she's

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Speaker 2: not on a podcast today is our producer Sophie Lichterman.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I Sophie is the queen of podcast

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Speaker 3: She's the least embarrassing person in podcasting.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and also the originator of podcasting. Don't ask

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Speaker 2: me to cite that. It's in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: I had a stress dream last night.

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Speaker 3: It's always interesting, like whatever, being somewhere in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the parasocial spectrum where I had a dream that

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Speaker 3: my favorite podcaster, or like one of my favorite podcasters

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Speaker 3: who I have like a parasocial relationship with, got like

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Speaker 3: hit by a car leaving a Broadway show.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I know it's like really specific. Oh

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Speaker 2: my god, that's Molly Okay.

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Speaker 3: She's she's okay, she's safe.

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Speaker 1: And it was literally she was leaving a hades town.

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Speaker 2: Huh, but like.

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Speaker 3: And I woke up distraught, being like wait, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Her, but that's really sad. I hope she makes it.

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Speaker 1: I want to keep listening to the show.

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Speaker 3: And you're it was a really weird set of emotions

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Speaker 3: to wake up with to realize it didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is going to be behind the curtain for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes when I meet people and they're nervous to meet

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Speaker 2: me and they're like, sorry, I have kind of parasocial relationship,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, I have a para social relationship with

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Speaker 2: the podcasters I listen to, and Jamie, I use you

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Speaker 2: as the example of someone that I have a parasocial

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Speaker 2: relationship with despite knowing in person and considering my friends.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I feel like there are certain because I feel

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Speaker 3: the same way. And when I met Molly earlier this year,

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Speaker 3: I was like, we know about the personal details of

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Speaker 3: each other's lives, and yet you're always like in full makeup.

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Speaker 1: In my mind, yeah, totally beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Actually, ooh, someone in full makeup is the protagonist of

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Speaker 2: this story.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, I wonder if it's well, I guess yeah,

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Speaker 3: in a cool way. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, they're in battle paint. Yeah, she's in battle paint

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Speaker 2: the whole time. We also have help from not just

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Speaker 2: an absent producer who's not actually absent in spirit and

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Speaker 2: helps make the show happen, Sophie. We also have help

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Speaker 2: from Eva, who's our audio engineer, Hi Eva Wow. And

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Speaker 2: our theme music was written for us by un woman Jamie.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about very tall women who fight

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Speaker 2: against empires?

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Speaker 1: I love Sarah Marshall's work. I'm a big fan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 1: I feel good about it.

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Speaker 2: Excellent, this is gonna work out well. I don't tend

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Speaker 2: to do the like National History Month things because I

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Speaker 2: try to challenge myself to not separate out types of history,

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Speaker 2: like to not only cover indigenous stories in November, for example. Sure,

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Speaker 2: but it is nearly the end of November, and I've

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Speaker 2: been covering people fighting against Rome and sort of the

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Speaker 2: original fighting against Empire. But I haven't been covering enough

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Speaker 2: of the fighting against empire that happened here in North America.

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Speaker 2: And so this is my Thanksgiving episode about people who

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Speaker 2: killed American patriots.

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Speaker 3: Let's go all right.

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Speaker 2: A couple weeks ago, I covered a Celtic rebel named Boudica.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of this woman? No, she was

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Speaker 2: this warrior queen of the ICINAI people in Britain, and

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Speaker 2: she led a revolt against the Romans and nearly drove

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Speaker 2: them out of England, though, and she burned London to

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Speaker 2: the ground, which is a pretty cool thing to do. Wow, okay,

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Speaker 2: and by all accounts, she was remarkably tall and strong

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Speaker 2: for a woman at the time, and I was like, okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: and then okay, just to go ahead and spoil the

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Speaker 2: end of that particular episode, no one's ever found her grave.

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Speaker 2: People believe that she's real, like all these people wrote

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Speaker 2: about her. No one's ever found her grave. And at

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Speaker 2: one point people found a grave with her name on

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Speaker 2: it very recently, but had a man's skeleton in it,

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Speaker 2: so they're like, ah, we still haven't found it and

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Speaker 2: kept moving, which as a trans woman I have feelings about.

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Speaker 1: Sure, but when was that?

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Speaker 2: When did they find it? Or oh the resistance was

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Speaker 2: in Oh crap, it's been a couple weeks since I

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Speaker 2: covered it, like the year like sixty oh orthing like that,

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Speaker 2: oka like a long long time ago, thousand years ago.

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Speaker 2: And then last week I covered more resistance to Rome

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Speaker 2: when Germans drove the empire out, And I remember thinking

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Speaker 2: all these times, covering all this resistance to Roman expansion. Wow,

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Speaker 2: this feels so parallel to European colonization in North America.

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Speaker 2: And it's not one for one. You know, and a

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Speaker 2: friend of mine, Otter, is an Afro Indigenous historian, Hi Otter,

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Speaker 2: if you're listening. And Otter wrote me and said, good

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Speaker 2: job covering Budica. Do you know about the Shawnee version

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Speaker 2: of her?

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Speaker 4: Who?

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Speaker 2: Okay? And I had not known, so she told me

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Speaker 2: about non Helemma. You ever heard of non Helemma?

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: I feel like, like probably most kids of the American

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Speaker 3: public school system, I know far too little about indigenous history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I absolutely had to trace my hand and then

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Speaker 2: make a turkey out of it. That's that's kind of I.

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Speaker 3: Also, I grew up like forty five minutes from Plymouth Plantation.

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Speaker 2: They were really shit.

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Speaker 3: I mean they were pouring the kool aid in vast

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Speaker 3: quantities when I was growing up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, this is an Ohio story. And this is

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Speaker 2: a story about an indigenous woman who was a chief,

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Speaker 2: a warrior, a diplomat, and also a cougar just kept

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Speaker 2: having kids with men who were like decades younger than her.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, okay, and she.

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Speaker 2: Did most of her fighting in Pontiac's War, which was

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Speaker 2: before the American Revolution, and so there she was six

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Speaker 2: foot six according to every source in it, which everyone

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Speaker 2: is a little bit like, maybe maybe she's six foot six. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I do like when because I feel like height is

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Speaker 3: ultimately a feeling totally, and it's like, how tall do

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Speaker 3: you make people feel? Because I'm almost six feet tall

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Speaker 3: and no one ever thinks that. Yeah, my energy is

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Speaker 3: not six feet tall, and I have accepted that, But

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Speaker 3: I feel like height is a state of mind.

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Speaker 2: I have ever told you that I lost an inch

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Speaker 2: by transitioning.

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Speaker 3: Really, wait where did it go?

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Speaker 2: So, just to give you a pair of social people,

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Speaker 2: way too much information about me, I am five foot

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Speaker 2: nine and three quarters. I have always been five foot

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Speaker 2: nine and three quarters. When I was a boy, I

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Speaker 2: would go to the doctor and they would measure me

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Speaker 2: and it's so, oh, you're five foot ten. And then

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Speaker 2: I went to the doctor as a girl. They round

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Speaker 2: it down, and they rounded down.

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Speaker 1: They do round it down. Wow, So nothing changed.

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Speaker 2: I know, nothing changed us to give up. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I am still five foot ten. You can round that up.

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Speaker 2: I am not cheating. I am not lying. Five foot

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Speaker 2: nine and three quarters whatever.

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Speaker 1: I'm told five to eleven at the doctor, but I

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Speaker 1: know the truth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah six foot six, Yeah, I'm also six six Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in Pontiac's War, there she is six foot six,

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Speaker 2: forty five years old going into battle naked and painted

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Speaker 2: and black body paint. Incredible, And so as soon as

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Speaker 2: I had that image, I was like, Yeah, I like

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Speaker 2: this lady.

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Speaker 1: I'm in.

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Speaker 2: Her story is kind of complicated. It is hard to

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Speaker 2: find clearcut perfect shining heroes and history period, and you

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Speaker 2: kind of can't win if you were native in North America.

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Speaker 2: Well probably ever, but I'm specifically talking about in the

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Speaker 2: era right around the Revolutionary War. So she's gonna take

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Speaker 2: a bit of a heel turn. But you know, she's

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Speaker 2: a fascinating person. But first context. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you knew this, Jamie, but North America has been a

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Speaker 2: colonized place for a while now, about five hundred years.

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Speaker 3: Wait, what if I needed that context? Isn't that the

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Speaker 3: best part of writing the podcast script when you're like

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Speaker 3: context and then you're like three hundred years before while

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Speaker 3: we're talking about wait something.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm absolutely going to go exactly three hundred years before.

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Speaker 3: It's the point, Yes, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to tie in heretical cults from Bohemia. Really

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Speaker 2: soon take me back, I'm ready. Most people know the

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Speaker 2: year fourteen ninety two, of course, as the year that

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Speaker 2: Christians demanded that all the Jews and Muslims leave Spain.

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Speaker 2: But also in fourteen ninety two, some Italian slaver discovered

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Speaker 2: that he could get really famous by showing up at

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Speaker 2: a place people already lived and then claiming to discover

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Speaker 2: that place and then enslaving the people who lived there.

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Speaker 2: His name is Christopher Columbus. He's not a hero. Our

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Speaker 2: story takes more place in the eighteenth century, the seventeen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: I actually I write that into the script for myself.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I do the like eighteenth century seventeen hundreds, I

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Speaker 2: do that because my brain still does not wrap my

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Speaker 2: head around that.

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Speaker 3: I fuck that up every single time I have to

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Speaker 3: do it. And then it's one of those little things

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Speaker 3: that when someone corrects me on that, I'm like, I

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Speaker 3: don't care. Yeah, they should fix that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the problem totally. It's like when you're late on

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Speaker 2: daylight savings time or whatever. You're like, yeah, man, I

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Speaker 2: didn't build this problem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, You're like the system is broken. I'm behaving rationally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So for the first half of the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 2: you have all these British colonies on the east coast,

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Speaker 2: stopping at the Appalachian Mountains to their west, or Appalachian

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Speaker 2: Mountains if you're in the north. And then there's New

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Speaker 2: France in what's now Canada, and there's a whole bunch

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Speaker 2: of disputed territory that a fuck ton of people already

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Speaker 2: lived in and they just weren't Europeans, so people didn't

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Speaker 2: ask their opinion about what should be done with all

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Speaker 2: that territory. And the main groups of pep people we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about today are the Shawnee. It's a

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Speaker 2: nation that started off kind of around the mid Atlantic,

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Speaker 2: like what's now Maryland, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia. And then

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Speaker 2: there's the Lenape, who are a little bit east and

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Speaker 2: north of that, like Delaware and New Jersey and New York.

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Speaker 2: All these people are still here. To be clear, I'm

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Speaker 2: using the past tense just about where they were living traditionally.

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Speaker 2: And then you have a third group of people who

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Speaker 2: aren't necessarily distinct, but it's a different culture, the Moravians.

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Speaker 3: I'm not familiar with the Moravians.

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Speaker 2: You're not familiar with the Moravian Church. I can't believe

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Speaker 2: you're not familiar with the Moravian Church that I learned

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Speaker 2: about this week, because I'm going to start this story

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Speaker 2: in the fourteen hundreds and fucking Bohemia, the Kingdom of

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Speaker 2: Bohemia what's now the Czech Republic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, of course you are. We are of course going

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Speaker 3: back there, yeaheah.

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Speaker 2: And it's going to tie into another story. I'm interested

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Speaker 2: in the Hussites and the Taborites.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my good friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually the Bohemian Adamites are the best, but

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Speaker 2: we'll get to them later, Okay, all right. You know

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Speaker 2: how in queer circles people find the most unhinged shit

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Speaker 2: to get angry and discourse about. Like, I can't believe

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Speaker 2: you're polyamorous and not a relationship anarchist. You are literally

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Speaker 2: the oppressor. You have a partner that's just inherently wrong,

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Speaker 2: you know, m h. Sometimes I read about old church

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Speaker 2: heresies and I'm expecting like juicy stuff, like sometimes you

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Speaker 2: get this right. Sometimes you get like the Ranters who

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Speaker 2: were a free love call that thought there was no

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Speaker 2: such thing as sin, and everyone should fucking big orgies

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Speaker 2: and share everything, and that's legitimately a pretty major break

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Speaker 2: from traditional Catholic teachings, right. But then the other heresies

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Speaker 2: that you find that people got burned alive for, and

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Speaker 2: there are things like what caused the Moravian thing? Hey,

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Speaker 2: we believe you should have bread and wine at communion?

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Speaker 3: Ooh, I kind of love those where you're like, it's

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Speaker 3: just a scooch above a perceived slight and you're like,

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Speaker 3: I can kill you for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna have some crusades about this. Literally, they're

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Speaker 2: going to have crusades about this.

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Speaker 3: So wait, that's the Moravian They want bread and wine

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Speaker 3: and that's against God.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple things okay that is like yeah, somehow

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Speaker 2: but okay, And so then there's other things like this

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Speaker 2: one isn't the Moravian ones, But you'll find heresies that

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Speaker 2: are like what if the Holy Trinity is like based

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Speaker 2: and cool and all that shit, but what if the

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Speaker 2: three parts are actually different and not on the same level,

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Speaker 2: And people will be like, we're gonna fucking kill you,

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Speaker 2: or like what if the bread and wine is a

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Speaker 2: metaphor and doesn't literally become flesh and blood in our stomachs.

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be nice to not be doing cannibalism each week?

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Speaker 2: And they're like, we're gonna fucking cut your head off,

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Speaker 2: We're going to kill you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this does feel like a lot of like leftist

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Speaker 3: circles too, or exactly wait what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: And they're like, no, you got we gotta kill her,

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Speaker 1: she's gotta go. Yeah yeah, okay, cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as humanity will never learn or improve,

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Speaker 3: I feel like that's.

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Speaker 2: The US, that is the important thing. Yes, okay. So

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Speaker 2: the Kingdom of Bohemia in what's now the Czech Republic

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Speaker 2: near Germany, they're thinking about wanting some church reformation years

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Speaker 2: before Martin Luther and his Protestantism. Did you know that

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Speaker 2: there's a Protestant church that comes from sixty years before

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Speaker 2: Martin Luther?

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Speaker 3: But no, wait and neither did I Did he take

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Speaker 3: credit for it? How does that work?

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Speaker 2: He did a different Protestant Reformation?

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Speaker 1: Oh that's tough. That's tough.

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Speaker 3: It's like when they make the do you remember when

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Speaker 3: they made two movies about Truman Capoti the same year

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Speaker 3: and it's like, sorry, there can actually only be one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, people are only gonna remember one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they've gone a different way. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when someone invents the new thing and then someone

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Speaker 2: does it slightly better and you're like, I was here first,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, no one cares that you were here first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like good idea.

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Speaker 1: Bye.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the Moravian Church who are still around.

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Speaker 3: They're still around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Moravian Yeah, it is very very small group.

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Speaker 2: But so sixty years before okay, So, so peasants were like, honestly, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I guess we care about the bread and wine thing,

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Speaker 2: but actually it's about how the church is taxing us

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Speaker 2: into starvation and live like kings. And so there's a

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Speaker 2: guy named Jan huss and the Catholic Church burned him

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Speaker 2: at the stake in the year fourteen eighteen, and people

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Speaker 2: were like, we don't approve you having killed this man.

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Speaker 2: And so you start getting this bigger rebellion against the

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Speaker 2: Catholic Church, and a bunch of like the nobles and

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Speaker 2: stuff are being on it too. They're like, actually, we

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Speaker 2: don't want the church being super rich in our area

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Speaker 2: instead of us. And then the peasants were like, what

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Speaker 2: if actually everyone was equal and everyone's like no, we're

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Speaker 2: not gonna listen to you.

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Speaker 3: They're like, no, no, no, no, no, we're on the same

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Speaker 3: side for totally different reasons right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cool, But do you know who should be

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Speaker 2: unbelievably wealthy? Who you, dear listener, if you take advantage

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Speaker 2: of the goods and services, unless it's gambling, and especially

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Speaker 2: gambling on your phone, in which case, don't do that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't gamble on your phone, and certainly don't join ice.

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Speaker 2: No oh god. And yeah. Every now and then those

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Speaker 2: ads get through.

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Speaker 1: Every once in a while you're like, and there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but if it's anything else, it'll make you fantastically wealthy.

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Speaker 3: By the cream. Oh yeah, by the cream.

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Speaker 2: That's right, here's ads and we're back. So all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, you have these Hussites, right, the Hussies. They're

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Speaker 2: not called Hussies, but I'm going to call them Hussies.

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Speaker 2: And they're into the idea that priests shouldn't hoard wealth

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Speaker 2: but actually live in a christ like way, and that

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Speaker 2: priest should be shouldn't be immune to civil court punishment.

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Speaker 2: This one took me a million years. I read the

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Speaker 2: four Articles of Prague and I was like, why am

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Speaker 2: I down this rabbit hole. I'm just trying to dream

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Speaker 2: about this thing. But she's going to end up a Moravian,

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Speaker 2: so we're going to get to that. So this is

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Speaker 2: the reason that we're talking about this and the four

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Speaker 2: Articles of Prague. One of them is like, and everyone

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Speaker 2: needs to be prosecuted for sin, and I'm like, man,

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Speaker 2: that one's sketchy. I don't know how I feel about

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Speaker 2: that one. But what they actually meant was that priests

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Speaker 2: need to be held accountable in civil courts.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting, like the ways that various groups define

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Speaker 3: and like deploy the term Christ Like, like it really

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Speaker 3: just depends on who you're talking to, because every once in.

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Speaker 1: A while, I'm like, I'm with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeahs Jesus. Sometimes he just wants everyone to be nice

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Speaker 2: to each other and share stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Sometimes it's like I just want you to be friendly.

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Speaker 3: Other times it's like, no, sorry, you're confusing Jesus with God.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so there's all of these sects within the Hussites.

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Speaker 2: They're having this huge rebellion, and there's like the more

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Speaker 2: moderate ones who I forget the name of, and then

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Speaker 2: there's more radical ones We're called the Taborites. So I

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Speaker 2: think I'm going to get to you later because as

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Speaker 2: I learn more about them, I think that they might

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Speaker 2: be like kind of like proto Christian anarchistic type people,

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Speaker 2: and so I like them, but I don't know yet.

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Speaker 2: Don't take my word for that. But I can't tell

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Speaker 2: you that one of the sections was the Bohemian Adamites,

365
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Speaker 2: and what they were doing is they were looking back

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Speaker 2: at a thousand year old sect of Christians from North

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Speaker 2: Africa called the Adamites, and they were like, the Adamites

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Speaker 2: had it right. And do you know what the Adamites

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Speaker 2: were into? What mass should be naked? Okay, everyone should

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Speaker 2: share everything absolutely, that includes sexual partners. Those who marry

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Speaker 2: will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay.

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Speaker 1: So it's a free love church.

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Speaker 2: Huh, nice, nice, free love nudist church.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, and we're back.

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Speaker 2: They can hit you commies.

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Speaker 3: Bohemian Adamites sounds like like a band that would really

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Speaker 3: do well with like middle schoolers.

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Speaker 1: That's cool.

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Speaker 2: Adam and the Ants is new side project. And it's

381
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Speaker 2: not certain whether or not they had orgies. The people

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Speaker 2: who like to demonize them this that they had orgies.

383
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Speaker 2: I also believe they probably had orgies. Why else are

384
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Speaker 2: they doing this?

385
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Speaker 1: Right?

386
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Speaker 2: But they lived on a little island to themselves. They

387
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Speaker 2: were convinced the world was ending, so they called themselves

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Speaker 2: the Saints of the Last Days.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Wow, dramatic of them.

390
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 2: I'm fucking idiot.

391
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it. So they want to be naked

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Speaker 3: and fuck and they're dramatic.

393
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Speaker 2: They also didn't like working, and they were like, no,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to be productive.

395
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Speaker 1: Fuck that nice okay.

396
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Speaker 2: And they like to go streaking through various villages and

397
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Speaker 2: towns and shit. I think this was their like proselytizing.

398
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Speaker 3: I like that They're like, let's just do a silly one. Yeah,

399
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Speaker 3: do a silly one.

400
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Speaker 2: I think they all got murdered, but I'm not sure.

401
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I feel like that's the only way that ends.

402
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Speaker 1: I know, too much fun, We're like too much fun.

403
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Even the other Hussites were like, y'all making us

404
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:53,360
Speaker 2: look bad. We're very serious, you know, they're just goofing off.

405
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 2: There's a gap year energy to this religion. Yeah, And

406
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Speaker 2: I love that. It's like I can point to the

407
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 2: ranters were really similar during the English Civil War era.

408
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Speaker 2: I love that whenever there's like a kind of a

409
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Speaker 2: break in like normal culture. People are like, I think

410
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Speaker 2: God wants us to fuck.

411
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Speaker 3: It would be against God if we didn't start fucking

412
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Speaker 3: right now.

413
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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, guys, it's what Christ would want.

414
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Speaker 3: That's Christ like. I mean that's a great weaponization of Christ.

415
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Speaker 3: Like Christ would have sex with me. Yeah, I think absolutely,

416
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Speaker 3: that's probably the christ like thing. I think that everyone

417
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 3: needs to live like Christ in this particular way. M

418
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Speaker 3: hyeah famously naked at least when he was on the cross.

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Speaker 1: Or that's true.

420
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Speaker 3: It's so wild how it just like Grandma's have christ

421
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 3: hog just in the bathroom totally, something I reflect on

422
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 3: sometimes where you're like it's just out and you're like

423
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Speaker 3: pooping and looking at Jesus's cock.

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Speaker 2: It's easy totally. And he also has that wound pussy.

425
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Speaker 2: But anyway, it's true. The was it was some of

426
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 2: the Hussies. They decide in fourteen fifty seven they're going

427
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Speaker 2: to form a church that's wholly separate from the Catholic Church.

428
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,719
Speaker 2: Originally they were like, hey, could we just be kind

429
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Speaker 2: of autonomous within the Catholic Church, And the Catholic Church

430
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Speaker 2: is like, we're literally gonna call a crusade and so

431
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 2: actually the Crusaders got their aspect, but one day I'll

432
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: cover that whole story, and so you get the first

433
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Speaker 2: Protestant Reformation sixty years before Martin Luther's ninety five. Theces

434
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Speaker 2: and people who believe the wrong thing often have to

435
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Speaker 2: leave to go from one place to another. So in

436
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Speaker 2: seventeen twenty seven, a good while later, a bunch of

437
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 2: Hussites from Moravia, which is next to Bohemia, fucked off

438
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 2: to Germany, or rather Germany didn't exist, so they fucked

439
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: off to Saxony near Poland. And they did this to

440
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 2: escape the counter Reformation, aka, we're going to kill all

441
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 2: the heretics. At this point, they're called the Moravians, which

442
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 2: is where most of them are.

443
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: And there's still like a pretty fairly small community.

444
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: That's my impression, but I didn't. As always, I know

445
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 2: way more about like shit that happened in like the

446
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 2: eighteenth century than whatever century we're in now.

447
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 3: Well, I bet it's also hard to find like good

448
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: sources on stuff like this too.

449
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like some of the history is actually

450
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 2: written by the modern Church being like, hey, this is

451
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: our history, right, but it's hard to then find like

452
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: here's how many there are currently or are they a cult?

453
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:29,719
Speaker 3: Right?

454
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: You know, it's like.

455
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: Famously hate to disclose that.

456
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And so if they show up

457
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: in Saxony and then pretty much right away a bunch

458
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 2: of them go off to the New World and a

459
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: lot of them end up in the Colony of New

460
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: York and they would set up in these towns. They

461
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: would start these towns that were mixed between their like German,

462
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: Czech themselves and indigenous folks, especially Lenape, Mohican and Cherokee people.

463
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: And you didn't have to convert to live there. And

464
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: so these were like some of the as far as

465
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: I can tell, some of the like seemed like at

466
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 2: the time, although we'll get to it safer places and

467
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 2: you could kind of like European eyes or whatever a

468
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 2: little bit, which isn't I'm not putting a moral statement

469
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: on that. It's just a thing that happened, and you

470
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: didn't have to convert to live there. But most of

471
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: them end up doing that, as far as I can tell.

472
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 2: And in seventeen forty four, the New York colonial government

473
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 2: was like, you can't be here, you're weird Germans. We

474
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: don't like that, and also stop doing that, and so

475
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: they kicked them out of New York, okay. And so

476
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: at this point they start moving into indigenous villages directly,

477
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: especially in Ohio where a ton of Lenape folks had

478
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 2: moved because they had already been driven out too. And

479
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: these Lenape villages they're essentially European and character and architecture,

480
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 2: though not in language. And this is going to come

481
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 2: up later. And these are sometimes called praying Indian towns,

482
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 2: all right, So that's the Moravians. They are going to

483
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 2: be influential to this story, Sara.

484
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: So the hippies are getting in on colonizing, uh huh, okay,

485
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: got it.

486
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: But it's a complicated because also already a lot of

487
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: these towns are indigenous people, right right. That's like the

488
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 2: weird thing about religious colonization and conversion. It's like, unlike

489
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: the Americans who are like, we're going to fuck murder

490
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: you all. The Christians, which many of the Americans are,

491
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: right are going to be like, well, no, we just

492
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 2: want to make you have our religion or.

493
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,479
Speaker 1: Whatever, strip you of your native culture.

494
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. But it's also like a lot of the

495
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: people doing that are indigenous people who are like this

496
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: is what we're choosing to do, right, And so I

497
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: feel like weird being like they shouldn't have done that.

498
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: And I'm like, man, I'll fucking know, right, totally, yeah,

499
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: but yeah it is one of the best. Like I

500
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: was on tour a couple of years ago with a

501
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: book called A Country It Ghosts. It's like utopian story.

502
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: And I was at this book and I was at

503
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: this indigenous info shop in New Mexico called Taalahugan, and

504
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 2: I was talking about this and this one person who

505
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: was at the talk, this guy named Kleebana Rest in Peace.

506
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: He died a couple of years ago. He's a game

507
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: writer and a regular writer and made a bunch of

508
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: stuff and he was like, look, you're here talking about utopia.

509
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: Like my people were like colonized by people here looking

510
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 2: for utopia. And it was such an important I didn't

511
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: have a counter argument. I was like, yeah, no, you're right,

512
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 2: Like that is the danger of utopianism, right. And it's

513
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: interesting because I get the impression that there's some level

514
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: of like Tara nullis, that's like, Oh, we're going to

515
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: show up and it's everything's going to be empty. I

516
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: think the Moravians were a little different than that, but

517
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know at all, right.

518
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: I mean, it's especially tricky when the main source for

519
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: the history of the Moravians is the Moravians.

520
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: Right, totally, all right, So the Shawnee people, who by

521
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: and large are not the Lenape. Some of the Lenape

522
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: have become religiously Moravian, not all of them, you know,

523
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: and the Shawnee are a little bit separate from that,

524
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: but they're in the same geography very heavily. By the

525
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: time our story gets going, and I'm going to use

526
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: some generalizations here as few as possible, but in general,

527
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: the Shawnee people are again, are still around, but I'm

528
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 2: talking about them in the seventeen hundreds, patrilineal, but with

529
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 2: a whole lot more gender balance than what you saw

530
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: in Europe at the time. The Shawne people at the

531
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: time used what was called a bilateral system. So there's

532
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: like a lot of if you read like the pop history,

533
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, she's a chief, and then people are like, woh,

534
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: she's a woman chief. And then you get into it

535
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: and you're like, as you go up the exploding brain,

536
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, of course she was. That was completely normal.

537
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: But then you keep going up and you're like, actually,

538
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: what does chief even mean? That's kind of a like

539
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: eurocentric thing that gets put onto Shawnee people.

540
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: I guess, like map, yeah, yeah, so what does it

541
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: mean in this context?

542
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: I know for certain what it means in the context

543
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: when they start talking about it. There's a word here,

544
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: but it's like basically a central chief, like chief of chiefs.

545
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: I know that that was created later in order to

546
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 2: allow people to actually interact with white people, because white

547
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: people will be like, but we want to talk to

548
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: who's in charge, and they were like, you can't. People

549
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: are in charge, right, okay, and so they kind of

550
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: had to create a system like that. I believe that

551
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: the chief thing was a little bit more flat. But also,

552
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: again according to Otter is one of my main sources

553
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: for this, it's really different at different times in places. Okay,

554
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: but I can say that in war you are going

555
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: to have like more leaders, war leaders and things like that,

556
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: and you also have peace leaders anyway, Okay, so during

557
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: times of peace you have the men's lodge and the

558
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: women's lodge, and they made decisions together. During times of war,

559
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: the men's Council would be entirely focused on issues of war.

560
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: The Women's Council would break into two groups, one continuing

561
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 2: domestic affairs and the other being the Matriarch's War Council.

562
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: Ooh, I know, I'm kind of like that's fun. Okay,

563
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: another good band name.

564
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can't declare war without all three groups

565
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: of people agreeing to it, okay. As an aside, I

566
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: fell down a rabbit hole reading a book from eighteen

567
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: thirty two about the Moravian work to Christianize indigenous people

568
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: in North America because I was trying to answer some

569
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: of those questions we were talking about earlier about how

570
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: they perceived it.

571
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: This is the most magpie story I've ever heard.

572
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: It is what I felt that just rabbit hole up

573
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: to rabbit hole, and so it goes on and on

574
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: about how Indians and that gets scare quotes were basically

575
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: the nicest heathen people of any heathen people in the world,

576
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: and they were actually more moral than most Christians already.

577
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: And this is mostly based on the Lenape people they met,

578
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: but they are also making these claims as generalizations of

579
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: the people of all of North America, and by that

580
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 2: they mean roughly like the Northeast. But I like this

581
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: following paragraph. I'm we're going to quote because basically, I

582
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: think the inference here is, yeah, these folks were gay

583
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: as hell.

584
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: Okay.

585
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: In the converse of both sexes, the greatest decency and

586
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: propriety is observed, at least nothing lashivious. I don't know

587
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: how to pronounce that word. I don't care. Or indecent

588
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: is openly allowed, so that in this respect it cannot

589
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: be denied that they excel most nations. But in secret

590
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: they are nevertheless guilty of fornication and even of un

591
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: natural crimes.

592
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: Ooh okay, Yeah, maybe it was just you read, but

593
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: it sounds like there's an implied comma and we're into that.

594
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, absolutely that rocks o'kay' never going to be

595
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: too far from the Adamites end of all things.

596
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: Yes, wow, unnatural crimes. I love an unnatural crime being invoked.

597
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. And another thing that is worth understanding to

598
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: understand this story. This is some of the earlier. The

599
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: colonization has been going on for hundreds years already, but

600
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: this is like a little bit earlier than most of

601
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: the quote unquote Indian Wars that we've talked about on

602
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: the show before, and most of the people in this

603
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: story are not used to the idea of total war.

604
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: Total war is sort of the idea that you're like,

605
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 2: kill civilians, We're just going to crush people, destroy them

606
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: as a people like, you know, mobilize an entire society

607
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: to destroy another society. Like you don't go to war

608
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: because you go to white people out in North America

609
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: before white people as a broad generalization, and the white

610
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: people showed up. The shiny people are going to them

611
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: long knives at this point in the eighteenth century.

612
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: Okay, better than they deserve.

613
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: But I know, and once again, okay, one of my

614
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: main sources here, I'm just gonna shout out my friend

615
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: Otter again, who sent me some of her notes directly,

616
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: and she has a substack and she writes a ton

617
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 2: about this stuff, and it's called Greetings from Sundown, Ohio.

618
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: So basically, war at the time meant something so completely

619
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: different than it meant in Europe, and in any given village,

620
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: you would have three spheres like layers of an onion,

621
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: which is a Shrek reference for you, Jamie.

622
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you so much. Now my brain is I'm

623
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: not gonna be able to sleep tonight. My sleeper cell

624
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 3: has been activating.

625
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: Sleepless cell.

626
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

627
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: So there's like three spheres where you can kind of

628
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: do war right out in the woods and shit, like

629
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: where people hunt and forage, areas that aren't really directly

630
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: controlled by people. You have a sort of ceremonial type

631
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: of warfare where people, mostly young men, would fight each

632
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: other and wrestle and taunt each other and sometimes play

633
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: pickup games of stickball to see who's better, and sometimes

634
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: people get injured. Sometimes rarely people would die, and this

635
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: is the safest place to fight. If you're like, oh

636
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: I hate those people, you can kind of go fight

637
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: them in the woods. And it's like it is what

638
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: it is, all right, the high school rivalry.

639
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: I mean war explained it anyway. Yeah, it's like it

640
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: comes down to Yeah, and.

641
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: Then you have the fields that people actually use. This

642
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: is a closer layer of the onion. If you show

643
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: up to russell horses or steal corn or whatever, then

644
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: you're playing for way higher stakes because you're fucking with

645
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: people closer to their home and you're fucking more directly

646
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: with their sustenance. And the fields were run by women

647
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: and two spirit folks, and they would defend them, and

648
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: they would defend them well. And so you might kill

649
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: someone who's trying to steal your horses, or if you

650
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: catch them there, you can take them and put them

651
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: in bondage for three years and basically like make them

652
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: work for three years. So much higher stakes. Then there's

653
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: the actual like village itself. If you come in to

654
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: town and steal shit or fuck with people, people just

655
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: might really fuck you up, but you also get like

656
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: way more credit from your friends if you like fucking

657
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: raided their village or whatever. Right, But even if you're

658
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: in an actual war with people, you're probably not fucking

659
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: with their actual town. And so that's how people are

660
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: used to handling shit. Governance and social norms and all

661
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: that are different village by village, tribe by tribe, nation

662
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: to nation, and presumably year to year. But that's a

663
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: way of understanding it in a general way. Okay, And

664
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: then white people show up and they're like, yeah, but

665
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: what if we just like lie to everyone all the

666
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: time and then kill everyone and then act, like, I

667
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: don't know, just be as evil as possible while we

668
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: do it.

669
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: We lie, we murder, we look bad, we smell bad,

670
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: and guess what, We've got a bunch of weird germs.

671
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 3: Oh the worst people ever?

672
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

673
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: Okay.

674
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: What I'm always amazed by, again and again is how

675
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: much like kindness people offer to the actual individual people,

676
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: you know, like despite this happening.

677
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I mean it is, I don't know, again,

678
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: more than anyone deserves, but it is beautiful.

679
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: And also, don't help the stinky people.

680
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: No, because if you do, then are eventually going to

681
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: invent podcasts and then support them with the ads, just

682
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: like these ones Ander Beck. And so people are like,

683
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: you know what, we have to fucking fight these people.

684
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: And that brings us to non Helena. Non Helena are

685
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: here this week. Was born in seventeen eighteen, and I'm

686
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: going to put as many quotes as you can possibly

687
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: think of around that year of birth because I have

688
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: questions specifically around how she had a child at fifty

689
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: five years old.

690
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: But oh well, okay, that's one of my favorite kind

691
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: of myths to hear, like everyone knows someone who knows

692
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: someone who knows someone who had like a seventy year

693
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 3: or you're like yeah.

694
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, much more likely people weren't keeping track of years

695
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: as well. And actually we'll talk about why, because there's

696
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: like a paper genocide going on and all this shit.

697
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: But okay, there's a bunch of versions about who her

698
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: parents are, what her exact lineage is, especially because her

699
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: brother gets literally all the credit for all the stuff

700
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: that they did together, which is not his fault. It's

701
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 2: just literally white people wrote the story. And yeah, don't

702
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: understand women.

703
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, woman could not do this.

704
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so people talk about her lineage and stuff.

705
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: Sometimes she was Shawnee, we know that much for sure.

706
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: Her father might have been a guy named Whitefish, or

707
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: it might have been a guy named hard Striker. Her

708
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: mother might have been named Katie, but in some things

709
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: I've seen, it's implied that she's religiously Moravian already, and

710
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: in which case, Katie would be a Christian name that

711
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 2: she had taken. But I find it much more convincing

712
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: that her mother was baptized in seventeen fifty five, so

713
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 2: years later into this story. Okay, mom might have been

714
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: mixed ancestry and is sometimes called Mattie. And as an aside,

715
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: because whenever I learn a thing that probably I feel

716
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: like I should have known a very long time ago,

717
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 2: but I only kind of really wrap my head around

718
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: it recently because I was aware of Matia as like

719
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: a specific cultural thing in Canada, right, Okay, yeah, but

720
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure of it. But okay, So mate is

721
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 2: a word of a bunch of different meetings. When it's capitalized,

722
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: you're talking about the Mati people, a specific nation of

723
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: indigenous people that's recognized legally in Canada that developed from

724
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: mixed ancestry folks. It became its own culture. And this

725
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: was more formalized in the late eighteenth century after what

726
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 2: we're talking about today. So I was like, how is

727
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: mom mati lower case? It has been used for a

728
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 2: lot longer in the French controlled areas to describe people

729
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 2: of mixed ancestry, and that's how it's being used here. Interesting, okay,

730
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: But also there's this whole thing where like sometimes whenever

731
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: whenever a person of color does something, people are like,

732
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 2: he was really tall, and then also he had white

733
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: in him, So oh.

734
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so like, ugh, I do not envy your

735
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: position here of like having to like read between the

736
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: lines of like colonizer shorthand that's so like he was

737
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: really cool, and guess what else about him?

738
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, yeah, exactly, but it's also completely possible,

739
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: but also doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter if there's

740
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,479
Speaker 2: a check person in her ancestry, like who fucking cares?

741
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: In some versions of this story, to get more reading

742
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: between the lines about how people tell stories and how

743
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: hit the victors tell stories, not Jelena's mother is ten

744
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: years old in some versions of this story, and her

745
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: father was way older. This is almost certainly complete bullshit.

746
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: It's either intentional bullshit where over and over again indigenous

747
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 2: manner presented as predatory and white circles for propaganda purposes,

748
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: or it's this bullshit thing tied into a paper genocide

749
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 2: where basically people are removed from historical records, so tracking

750
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: lineages and dates is really.

751
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 3: Tricky, right, and then it just turns into it I

752
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 3: would assume a bunch of work to try to figure

753
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 3: out how a person could exit. That's yeah, right, yeah,

754
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: And so.

755
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: We do and don't know a lot about non Helena.

756
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: She was probably born in seventeen eighteen, as what most

757
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: people say. Some people says seventeen twenty. Literally, I would

758
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 2: guess late seventeen twenties just based on look, I'm not

759
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: trying to say a fifty five year old isn't having kids,

760
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 2: are running into battle naked like more fucking power. But

761
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: like I'm skeptical about some of it, and just to continue,

762
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: we don't fucking know anything, but it's interesting what we know.

763
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: I enjoy whenever I find the pop history of something,

764
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: it always states things like their facts right right, And

765
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: then you're like, but that other articles is opposite things

766
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: like they're facts, like can we like interrogate this, you

767
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: know right?

768
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: God? Okay?

769
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 2: So to continue with this idea of it, like she's

770
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: built as this myth her name might have meant not

771
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: a man, non helena and if okay, this could have

772
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: been the name she was born with and it could

773
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: have come later, especially if it was a name given

774
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: to her by the white people she interacted with, who

775
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 2: kept being frustrated that they had to deal with a woman.

776
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: And I asked Otter about this, and Otter said she

777
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 2: thinks that maybe it could be the French word gnoll

778
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: like n on combined with the Shawnee word for man,

779
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: which is heleniki oh okay, but.

780
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 3: They also like have a word for woman, right, so

781
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: it would have to be like a deliberate choice to

782
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 3: go by that.

783
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: Okay, right, huh.

784
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: Non. Helena had three brothers. The most famous one and

785
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: the only one i've seen also in this story is

786
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 2: known as corn Stock or I've seen it as corn

787
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: silk as well.

788
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: And is that the person who's given yeah.

789
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 2: All the credits? Yeah got it, which they did together.

790
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 2: He deserves just as much of the credit. He just

791
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 2: doesn't deserve all of the credit. Sure. Yeah. Her family

792
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 2: moved around a lot as a kid, but not because

793
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: they're like army brats, but because they're being chased by colonization,

794
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: and they left probably what was now West Virginia to

795
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 2: move to the Ohio Valley, likely in seventeen thirty. Her

796
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: first husband, history doesn't have his name. It's okay, she's

797
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: gonna have several husbands. People like to argue two or three.

798
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 2: She's having kids by at least four different people while

799
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 2: still with the husbands, Like she's fucking yeah or not?

800
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: Oops, we don't well, actually I don't know.

801
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: They had access to a mortificance, so these kids were chosen.

802
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: Nice.

803
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: She grew up tall as fuck, probably pretty much every

804
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 2: account of her says she was six. With six, I

805
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: did find one that was like, she's more than six

806
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 2: feet tall, and I'm like, that feels a little more real. Yeah,

807
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: normally this is where I would get transvestigative if as fuck,

808
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: and I sure did with Boudica over in Britain. But

809
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 2: the thing is that the Shawnee already have a system

810
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: for what to do with gender variants, so there's like

811
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: no reason for her to like, right, she's almost certainly

812
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: a woman, you know.

813
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: Okay, I mean, well, and now you can take off

814
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 3: just for people who are listening, Magpie did put on

815
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 3: her transvestigator embroidered hat.

816
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I keep that around. Yeah. At the

817
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: last episode, someone was like, yeah, Margaret's transvestigator in a

818
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: good way. I'm like, is there a good one? Is there?

819
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: One day I'm going to do my Kurt Cobaine episode

820
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: and everyone's going to get mad.

821
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I mean you got to take the hat

822
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 3: out for that one.

823
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to do my great Eggs of History episode, which,

824
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,479
Speaker 2: by the way, dear listener, is slang for a trans

825
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 2: woman who has not come out yet anyway, because she's

826
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 2: a chick, uh huh, she's going to become a chick.

827
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 3: Oh, I honestly had never gotten to step two interrogating

828
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 3: that got it? Got it?

829
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 2: At least that's what I think I mean that part anyway, whatever.

830
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 1: If there is another reason, I prefer that one.

831
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. So It's possible that her height is exaggerated

832
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: for propaganda purposes, because she's going to be terrifying when

833
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: people soon enough. It's also possible that she was tall

834
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: and while she's doing her shit, she had long white hair.

835
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: She had long black hair before that, but she had

836
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: long white hair and that fucking beautiful image.

837
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

838
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: She became chief of her village when she was probably

839
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: around thirty two, in seventeen fifty. Her brother Cornstock, is

840
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: the chief of the village just across the creek. Her

841
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: first husband died in probably seventeen fifty four. She married

842
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: another guy named Malantha. And the idea of exactly what

843
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: a chief means isn't always clear because shit would be

844
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 2: different in different places. Like I said, Europeans really liked

845
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 2: having one guy in charge, especially a guy in charge,

846
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 2: So there's an eurocentrism that exaggerates the role of chiefs.

847
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 2: But I always have to be careful because I have

848
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: a bias in the opposite direction where I want to

849
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 2: believe against hierarchical structuring. So I'm always kind of whenever

850
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, I didn't really mean that, I'm like

851
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: trying to look at my own biases. So I don't know.

852
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 3: I've found it very difficult to untrain I mean into

853
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: untrained and bias in that air in general, but also

854
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 3: to try to just look at something objectively and not

855
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 3: map it on something that I already know.

856
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 2: So hard.

857
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: It's so hard.

858
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 2: Now, that's such a good point, because that is like

859
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: we're patterns seeking creatures, and we're like trying to find

860
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: ways to understand things, and like it's so hard with

861
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: history because you're like you have a combination of like written,

862
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: archaeological and oral traditions is like the main way we

863
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: have information from a long time ago, and those don't

864
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: always map to each other, and they're also subject to

865
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: like how we interpret things changing constantly. Like this is

866
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: like the thing I'm obsessed with is basically like trying

867
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: to understand just how different the past us and how

868
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: differently we treated each other, you know, and like when

869
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 2: we look at things with certain lenses, we're like so

870
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 2: confused by them, but which like.

871
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: Makes the paper genocide element so much. I don't know,

872
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 3: it adds like an element to that that I probably

873
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 3: don't give enough consideration too, which is like, not only

874
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: are you a racing history, but you're like denying people

875
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: the opportunity to have a structure to be like, oh,

876
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 3: it's like that, but like we don't know what it

877
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 3: is because it's been erased or hidden.

878
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's hiding the bodies. But on like a

879
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: historical scale, you know, like you're thinking about like because

880
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: every now and then I'll read about like massacres and

881
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: they'll be like, h six million people died or maybe seven,

882
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: and you're like, man, that's a million people.

883
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: That's a big difference.

884
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: Seven are similar, but a million people is a lot.

885
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: And I think about it all the time because I'm like,

886
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: you kill one person in my family, my family is

887
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 2: going to remember it for a thousand years. You know, well,

888
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: not my family. We're bad at keeping track of things.

889
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: But but you know, like, but you kill my entire family,

890
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 2: I don't know who knows he's going to remember, you know,

891
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: And like, and that's why the many reasons genocide appeals

892
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: to the genociders is because they're like, if we kill

893
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: enough of these people, then our crimes are erased.

894
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 3: Right, you know, because it becomes too large a crime

895
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: for the brain to be able to easily latch onto

896
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 3: in an emotional.

897
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like killing all the witnesses, but on a

898
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: nightmare scale. I'm like not surprised whenever, Like I first

899
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: heard people saying that the Nazis copied Americans and how

900
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: Americans dealt with indigenous people. That was like a huge

901
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 2: part of how they designed the Holocaust or whatever. I

902
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: remember I first heard that and I was like, oh, yeah,

903
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: that feels trueish And then you're like, oh no, that's

904
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: like literally true. That's just like a thing that happened. Yeah,

905
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: Like where are the og Nazis they it?

906
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 3: It only feels sort of true because we're not taught

907
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 3: enough about like how genocidal Americans are.

908
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so.

909
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: There's a little bit more in today and then we'll

910
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: get to the rest on Wednesday. But I see if

911
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: Shawnee villages that she's living in, and they're right next

912
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: to a bunch of Moravian Indigenous towns, and the Shawnee

913
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: end up pretty central to the resistance against European colonization

914
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: and its attendant Jenni side of indigenous people, and they

915
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: made the claim who they is a barely sourced it's

916
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: in the sources, but like whatever, there's so much myth

917
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: making about list. Shawny people are like, we've killed ten

918
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: times as many white people as the rest of you, motherfuckers,

919
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: and they're pretty proud of that, and I would be too.

920
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 3: I'm like imagining it's technologically possible. I'm imagining like a chalkboard.

921
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. It's a running counter. Yeah. And they're like

922
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 2: a reasonably small tribe. I think they're numbering of the thousands.

923
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: They don't have a central governing structure, and they are

924
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: fighty for a good reason and pretty good at it.

925
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: They fought in the French and Indian War against British

926
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: colonists because the British colonists were way worse than the French.

927
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: The French were like, oh, that's our territory, and they

928
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: were like there, but they weren't there. And I'm not

929
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: trying to be like the French were great colonizers, but

930
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: you know whatever, Like one side's Jigsaw from the movie

931
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: I won't watch and the other sides of the French.

932
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: Wait, why won't you watch it?

933
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: I don't like Gore stuff as much. Watch Oh I.

934
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 3: Gotta edit oops aal Jigsaw, but just the jigsauce speeches.

935
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: You okay, okay, yeah, okay. So if you do the

936
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 2: like cartoon Gore cut where it's like, oh.

937
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 3: Oh no, it's literally just a little guy on a tricycle,

938
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 3: if you take it out, which actually is a really

939
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: it would be a really pleasant you know, seven to

940
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: twelve minutes. If I cut together all the tricycles saw someone.

941
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 2: Has to This is how we'll do. Like you get

942
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: me on beckdel cast to talk about sol and it'll

943
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: be the like Magpie safe edit where I'm like not

944
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: afraid of horror. I just don't like the insights of bodies.

945
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: I don't know.

946
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 3: I like this guy's message. I wonder what he because look,

947
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 3: say what you will about Jigsaw's methods. He really hates cops.

948
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: Well that I actually shouldn't use this as the metaphor anymore.

949
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's fine.

950
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: But one side. The British are just nightmare men, Like

951
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: I mean, George Washington is literally running around with teeth

952
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: he ripped out of people's faces in his mouth, you know,

953
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: m like North America is a horror movie. So that's

954
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 2: one side. And then the French are like the French,

955
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 2: and I don't know, they're probably horrible. I haven't read

956
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 2: as much about French colonization, but most Indigenous people in

957
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: the French and Indian War, as the name of the

958
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: war suggests, sided with the French. The British unfortunately won

959
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 2: that war in seventeen sixty three, and they got a

960
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: bunch of new territory from the Native people because the

961
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: French were like, oh, yeah, Ohio is ours, Sure you

962
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: can have that, even though they didn't live there. In

963
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: Indigenous people did and said the British were like, great,

964
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: that's ours now. But people were like, no, we don't

965
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: want that. We're going to fight and we're going to

966
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: call it Pontiac's War because of this guy named Pontiac,

967
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: like of the car. Yeah. I was thinking about this

968
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 2: today because I was walking past a Cherokee, like a

969
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 2: jeep Cherokee, and I'm just like, I mean, this is

970
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: so obvious. You can get those epiphanies where it's like

971
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: something that's obvious and you already know it, but it

972
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: hits you really hard anyway. Yeah, that's how I was

973
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: feeling today, thinking about Pontiac's war and just being like

974
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: walking past a Cherokee car and just like, man, we're.

975
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 3: Just I'm embarrassed. I didn't know what Pontiac, like, what

976
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 3: that term referenced at all.

977
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he was a chief of the Ottawa people,

978
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: and he was like, you know, it's like awkward to say,

979
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: like lead the rebellion, but he in many ways did.

980
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 2: It was actually him and another guy whose name escapes

981
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: me off the top of my head, because actually it

982
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: was funny. Is like I think in general, if you

983
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: want to be the chrismatic leader of one of these things,

984
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: it's less about being the good general and it's more

985
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 2: about getting the disparate groups of people to come together.

986
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: Like my favorite stories always are when desparate groups of

987
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 2: people who kind of don't even like each other come

988
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: together to fight the big bad.

989
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: Everyone's favorite movie is a version of that.

990
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah exactly, And that's what's going to happen, and

991
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about it and non Jelena is

992
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: going to get to go into battle naked and covered

993
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 2: in paint on Wednesday.

994
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to see her in battle.

995
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: You got anything you want to plug here at the end,

996
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 2: for example, you were just talking about a different podcast

997
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 2: where you talk about movies.

998
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: Yes, Oh, look there's this podcast.

999
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: It's better after a decade.

1000
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,479
Speaker 3: It's called the back Cast.

1001
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: Longer than the Confederacy. That's what you need to do.

1002
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: Oh should This show has been about as long as

1003
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: the Confie anyway, Yeah.

1004
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: All right, give it a few more years. Yes, we're

1005
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 3: built to last, unlike the Confederacy. But you can listen

1006
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 3: to the Bechtel Cast every single week. It's an intersexual

1007
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 3: feminist podcast I co host with my dear friend Caitlin

1008
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 3: Deronte mag Pie.

1009
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 1: You've been on many times. Yeah.

1010
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: And then also you can listen to We the End House,

1011
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: which is a show I produce that is created and

1012
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 3: hosted by the wonderful Theo Henderson, where he is covering

1013
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 3: issues that affect the un housed from an unhoused perspective.

1014
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,959
Speaker 3: That's every other Tuesday on iHeart Radio.

1015
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: Fuck You. If you want to follow me, you can

1016
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: by listening to this podcast or googling my name. I

1017
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: don't know. You can do whatever you want and see

1018
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 2: you all on Wednesday.

1019
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 4: Cool people who did cool Stuff is a production of

1020
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1021
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 4: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out

1022
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 4: up on I Heard Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1023
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 4: you get your podcasts.

1024
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 3: M