WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 206 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.120 All media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.720 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.520 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:24.480 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.600 Hi, everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.839 a very special round table podcast today where we're going 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.320 to discuss the United States ongoing campaign of bombing small 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:43.839 boats in the Caribbean. I'm joined by Michael Palberg, an 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.320 associate professor of political science at vir Junior Commonwealth University 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.680 and a fellow at the Center for National Policy. Hi Michael, 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:52.519 thanks for joining us. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:53.720 Hi, thanks for having me. 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.560 And Andrew is also here. Listeners of the show will 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.680 be familiar with Andrew's work. He joins very often. In 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.160 this instance, Andrew is talking as someone who is from 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.360 Trinidad and Tobago, which of course is very much being 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.720 impacted by this. Hey Andrew, Hey, what's going on much? Well, 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.880 let's talk about what's going on, because something quite constantial 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.279 is going on. What's going on is that the United 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.440 States is carrying out a campaign of drone strikes against 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.200 small vessels in the Caribbean. As far as we know, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.959 there have been seven strikes. At least thirty two people 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:37.319 have been killed, two people have been detained and then repatriated, 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.840 and a number of vessels have been struck. The US 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.920 it's bringing its war on terrorism logic to the Western hemisphere. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.240 Rate it's claiming that it's fighting narco terrorism, and it's 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:51.800 claiming that these boats are for the most part carrying 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.320 Venezuelan nationals coming out of Venezuela. We've heard from Colombia 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.280 that one Colombian national has been killed, the two people 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:05.400 who are detained, and Ecuadorian and Colombian to Trinidadian or 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.160 Trinidad and Tobago nationals have been killed as well. And 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.800 this has sparked something of a and what it was 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:14.520 a war of words, now it seems to be a 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.639 war of more than that, like tariffs and sanctions. And 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.400 if Columbia has withdrawn their diplomats from DC as of 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:28.519 today or yesterday, so it sparks significant political turmoil in 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.680 the Western hemisphere. I think we have a really good 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.360 panel to talk about that. So to begin with, I 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.720 guess we should start, Michael, Can you explain their accusation here? 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:37.880 Right? 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.080 Is that these people are members of TRENDERRAA or potentially 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.359 some other cartels that the Trump administration likes to talk about. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.240 We've talked about the prevalence of those groups, but can 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.079 you explain very briefly what they are and I suppose 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.600 the function that they have in Venezuela or what they're 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.880 doing there versus what's been claimed that they're doing. 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.600 So sure, I do research on organized crime in Latin 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:05.000 America and ren de Aragua is a real organized criminal 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.400 group in Venezuela and now all over Latin America. It 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.400 is a street gang that started out as a prison gang. 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:16.320 It does not primarily engage in international drug trafficking, moving 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:21.799 large quantities of drugs across national borders or across oceans. 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:26.200 It is primarily engaged in human trafficking. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:27.040 And extortion rackets. 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.960 And it primarily follows the Venezuelan Niaskara people who have 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:32.760 left Venezuela. 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:33.760 And at this point it's an. 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.720 Incredible twenty percent of the population over the last ten 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.320 years of Maduro's presidency, so nearly eight million people wherever 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.440 they go, and they take advantage of them, they extort 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.320 them for money. They will also take money to move 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.320 them across borders. But they're not a cartel in the 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.400 way that we traditionally think about cartels like the Sinalo 0:03:55.520 --> 0:04:00.640 cartel or some of the Colombian cartels that that are 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:06.320 engaged in international cocaine trafficking. And so it's highly unlikely 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:11.400 that if the Drum administration is striking boats that they 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:16.520 claim to be vessels transporting cocaine or Vensional, which is 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.920 not made in Venezuela. It's primarily made in Mexico using 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.480 precursor chemicals from China, and recently it's actually made the 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.679 United States. Even that it's a tile synthetic drug, that's possible, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.720 and Venezuela, of course is not one of the countries 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.799 where coca is grown and therefore cocaine comes from. If 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.040 they are indeed striking drug boats, then they probably wouldn't 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.600 be traded Atauga. And if they're striking boats with Brenda ar Aagua, 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.480 they would be most likely striking migrant smuggling vessels, in 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.080 which case the death count would likely be much higher. 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:46.840 Yeah. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.080 Yeah, so we should talk about the other Caribbean nations. Now, 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.240 I guess I want to talk about trendent Tobago, but 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:58.480 we should probably cover Columbia first, right, because we've seen 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.719 significant pushback from Petro, President of Columbia, and then we've 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.159 recently seen the President of the United States accused Petro, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.840 who is again President of Columbia, of being a drug 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.159 trafficker himself, which is a fairy ludicrous claim on the 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.599 face of it. But let's talk about Petro because he 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:20.880 has some background in opposition to organize crime and drug smuggling. Actually, right, 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.159 like he's been in this for a while. Can you 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.359 explain a little bit of his career and then his 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:26.480 recent stances. 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:31.240 Yeah, So Petro is a mercurial figure in Columbia politics, 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.640 has been for a long time. He is known for 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:39.839 starting his career as a gorilla with a minor anti 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.120 government guerrilla movement called the M nineteen Movement. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:44.440 Now, this is the. 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.520 Movement which I don't know, maybe Western audiences are familiar 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:53.520 with from the Netflix series Narcos, for having participated carried 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:58.239 out the Palace of Justice siege at the Columbian Supreme Court, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.560 which was a major design during which the Clemian military 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:07.640 went in guns blazing to rescue hostages of Supreme Court 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:12.520 justices and other people just employed in the Palace of Justice, 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.200 and most everyone died in a fire as a result. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.640 Petro was not involved in that operation as far as 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.440 anyone knows. He was not involved in a violent comportations. 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.440 And this organization, unlike the FARK and the LN never 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.000 really got on the cocaine money train and therefore didn't 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.960 last as long as those other organizations did. They did demobilize, 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.040 they did turn to peaceful politics, and Petro began his 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.280 political career at the local level Bogota and then eventually 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.120 reached the presidency. So he is someone with a long 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.440 political career and does have a constituency, does have a base, 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.520 and he is the first truly left wing leader of Columbia, 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.720 country that has been famously both ruled by the right 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.680 and also very closely allied to the US. It's really 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.800 the US's top out lie in Latin America, well in 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:06.880 South America, at least specifically on security, given Plant Columbia 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.160 and a long history of US giving as much as 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:16.600 ten billion dollars over time to beef up Colombia's counterinsurgency 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.880 and counter narcotics fights on our behalf. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.120 Yet too, he's a president of being a drug craft 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.720 for is fairly ludicrous, like he's been, like even in 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.160 his time as a senator, right, he was like I 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:32.760 think he was sharing some like investigations or committees that 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.240 looked to drug smuggling, if I remember correctly. 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.280 Yeah, And so I would say Petro has been very 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.840 critical of the War on Drugs approach generally, but he 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.760 does still inherit this long standing deep relationship with the 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.680 United States, and he's not exactly a full on peacenick 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.520 when it comes to his own internal security. He did 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.040 come it off as promising what he called total peace Possibal, 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.520 a platform that was meant to put an end to 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.320 all armed in certainties in the country by making a 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:11.680 deal with the remaining combatant groups, namely the ELN, the 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.480 dissident bar guerrillas, those who did not agree to the 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:19.280 peace deal signed by Santos in twenty sixteen, and what's 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:24.160 in different terms called the Klandel Gordfo or the AGC. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.880 The guy thamis self defense forces but one of the 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.600 largest national narco paramilitary group that descends from the old 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.920 AUC and he has failed in that and talks have 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.840 broken off with those. 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:38.600 Other armed groups. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.760 Colombia has gone back to war against them. The ELN 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:48.479 has engaged in some pretty horrific violence, including a suicide 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.079 car bombing the police barracks and the distant farc as 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:56.080 well taking down a helicopter and a drone attack. So 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.840 there has been a return to fairly high level, you know, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.480 armed insurgency in Colombia, even if it's nowhere near the 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.200 level it was from the late nineties and early two thousands. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.760 Right, Yeah, And all of this is happening in the Caribbean, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.360 which is not a vast ocean, right, It's not a 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.679 massive area of space. And as Andrew and I were 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:22.880 talking about before we recorded, this has impacted other Caribbean nations, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:27.079 nations which are not the target of the Trump administration's 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.880 aggression but nonetheless are being subjected to it. Do you 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.720 want to talk, Andrew, Trinida and Tobago's in a particularly 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.959 interesting the right word, It's not a great situation, right, 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:43.200 because Trinidadian people are being killed at least two indeed, 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:48.720 and the government is apparently completely unconcerned with this. 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.960 Yes, I suppose I should provide some context. So there 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.880 have been seven strikes to date and the fifth strike 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.719 results in the deaths of two fishermen, the village of 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.680 Las Cuevas in Trinantobago being claimed among the victims. The 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.360 governments Transpigo has not made a statement about it, and 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.760 the families have not really been contacted or providing any 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.680 sort of support. Now, for those who are listening who 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.400 may not know where Trinantopago is, it is an independent 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.480 twin island republic in the Caribbean, and it's actually geographically 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:28.320 an extension of South America. There's a gulf that separates it, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:33.840 but it's about eleven kilometers away from Venezuela itself. And 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.760 our elections that took place this year led to the 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:42.599 removal of the incumbent party and the return of the 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.920 United National Congress, the political party led by Camera Posada Prossessor, 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:52.800 claiming the government in a sweep landslide. Really, but despite 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.280 that landslide, it wasn't really the result of popular support 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.200 for the United National Congress. It was more so the 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:03.680 lack of support for the previous party, the People's National Movement, 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:08.200 which lost I believe two hundred thousand or so of 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.560 their usual voters just didn't show up to vote for 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.640 them this election, So the opposition party came into power 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.040 when the opposition party wasn't the opposition. They in many 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.640 ways appeared to just oppose for opposing's sake. They were 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.040 in power previously from twenty ten to twenty fifteen, but 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.360 they were voted out due to, among other things, corruption, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.000 and since then the party has further evolved into a 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:40.079 sort of personality cult centered around came Pusser Prossessor, and 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.320 her politics have also evolved in that time to align 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.880 further and further toward the United States position. She's become 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.920 something of a Trump Stan you know. She was kind 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.360 of towing his line on a lot of issues. She 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:00.319 supported Guido Juan Guido as the president of Venezuela and 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.199 actually went so far while she was an opposition leader 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.320 to call on the United States to sanction Trinantobago after 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.800 the vice President of Venezuela had made a visit to 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.800 the country to meet with the then Prime Minister Keith Rowley. 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:18.280 So she has made her pro Washington stands clear for 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.080 a very long time and as she's come into power, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:27.239 she has divoted our alignment with our regional bloc, the 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.120 Caribbean Community cara COM and their call for the Caribbean 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:37.000 to remain a zone of peace, and emphasized her continued 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:42.240 endorsement for the US military's deployment outside of Venezuela's territorial waters, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:48.520 but still very much belligerent in her approach to this issue. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.640 You know, we have gone from a state that was 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.840 respected as a non aligned entity that was able to 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:02.760 approach various diplomatic partners from the US to China, to 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:07.080 the eute in Yale to Venezuela as well, and we've 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.480 gone from that sort of diplomatic approach to a very 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:15.840 clear pro West stance that has really alienated US from 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:20.760 the rest of the region and really placed US almost 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.720 in the position of being a satellite state for US policy. 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.080 You know, she's been inviting the US military if they 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.960 want to base the operations Auto Turinad. She has opened 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.319 our doors to that. She has called for the US 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:39.200 to kill them all violently extraditionally, and stated that she 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:44.120 is perfectly aligned with what the US is doing in 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.520 the region, despite its flagrant violations of international law. 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.240 Yeah, as you said earlier, right that them in this 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.520 instance includes at least two of her own citizens. 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:57.120 Yeah. 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.840 And I will say that this sort of Zone of 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.720 East designation for the Caribbean, it is something that I 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.960 would this is my personal opinion and consider more of 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.800 a hopeful ideal rather than a reality. You know, the 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.240 trafficking that takes place in the region does visit a 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.120 lot of violence upon people. Is you know, by no 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.160 means in reality a zone of peace. Even before the 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:26.480 US's actions in the region. However, though we may not 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:31.920 fit that postcard perfect perception of you know, tropical paradise, 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.720 it is still necessary, I think for us to stand 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.000 in solidarity as a region, to speak with one voice 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.040 when it comes to these issues, especially as a continued 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.360 existence depends on the observation of international law. The respect 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.240 for the UN Charter as small islands or safety is 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:54.240 really in numbers. 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.160 And for the. 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:01.400 Prime Minister to deviate from that solidarity in such a 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.280 blatant way, it's really quite sad. But it shouldn't come 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.240 as a surprise because there have been efforts by the 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.880 US to divide Cara con in the past. During his 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.040 first term, Trump had pulled some Cara Con countries into 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.400 the LIMA Group, which was a US promoted coalition of 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.960 right wing governments that was push in for regime change 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.320 in Venezuela. And he's not doing the same thing with 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.640 trying to get some Caracon governments to facilitate his actions 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.920 towards Venezuela. They approached Grenada recently to try and get 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:45.440 Grenada's assistance in basing a satellite there on the island. 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.200 And it's really ironic that they would approach Grenada, which 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:52.320 is also quite close to Venezuela, because Grenada is famously 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:57.120 one of the countries that the United States invaded in 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:58.480 October of nineteen eighty three. 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.520 Yeah, I think, I know. I say this a lot, 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.080 but if you've listened to the song Washington Bullets by 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:05.840 the Clash, and then you go to the border, you 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.200 can kind of join up all the people from all 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:12.000 the countries mentioned there and the outcome of US policy 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:25.640 and what that does to migration over time. We should 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.720 talk about the Venezuelan opposition. I guess, Michael, would you 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:34.720 give I've done a pretty in depth discussion of Venezuela, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.160 a place where I have spent a decent amount of time, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.120 like I wanted to see that revolution myself when I 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.520 was like nineteen and I was studying political science that 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.040 I wanted to see what this like Pink Tide was about. 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.960 And I have reported a lot on Venezuelan migrants people 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.000 who are in new to the show. I guess the 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.080 series I did from the Darien Gap would be where 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.160 I would point you for my discussion of Venezuela and 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.960 Venezuelan people. I still speak to people of Venezuela almost 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.600 every day, but I think people could do myc with 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.879 like a high level overview of the Venezuelan opposition. I 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.040 guess we can talk about that about prize as well, which, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.000 despite what Donald Trump is saying, was not awarded to 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:15.960 him this year. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:16.720 Yeah. 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.680 So the big news is that Maria Quina Machado, who 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.440 is the leader of the Venezuelan opposition as we as 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.719 we know it today, was award of the Nobel Prize, 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.800 which was a bit of a surprise and from a 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.879 very US centric analysis. One idea that has been floated 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.000 is that the Nobel Committee didn't want to award Trump 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.040 the prize, but thought that maybe awarding it to an 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.240 ally of Trump would we be away to modify Trump 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.879 also possibly to encourage. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.360 Him to take a more peaceful approach at a. 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.520 Time that the US is threatening armed intervention in some 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.840 way in Venezuela, whether that is a counternarcotics operation or 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.480 more likely a regime change operation of some kind, even 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.919 though it's very unclear how they would get to regime 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.880 change from blowing up boats, Wrea can blowing up people. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.439 Maybe we should pause and talk about regime change actually, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.320 because I like it's such a problematic idea. Right we 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:19.880 have attempted regime changes. My career for the last several 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.840 years has been reporting on the United States failed attempts 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.560 to facilitate regime chams all over the world, right, Like, 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:28.840 it's not something we're very good at. I don't think 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.600 that the United States is going to invade maybe do 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.639 you think differently? But I think we probably agree that 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.840 the United States is unlikely to do like an Iraq 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.919 style invasion of Venezuela. Can you explain the like why 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.600 I suppose just just for people who you know, think 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.160 that that's what's happening in the Caribbean at the moment 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.520 with this concentration of forces. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:51.840 Well, it's undlikely to happen, because well, it's a very 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.040 large country and it would take a lot more troops 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.840 than what are currently deployed, which is approaching ten thousand now. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.520 But that's actually that includes all sorts of logistical support. 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.520 The actual fighting force, the Marine Expeditionary Unit is actually 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:08.960 a much smaller I've lived in Panama as a kid, 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.560 and I was not old enough to be there for 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.080 the invasion, but I lived there some years after that. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.199 That's probably the closest analog to this, at least the 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.040 way that the Trump administration is promoting this, which is 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:25.200 to say, a regime change operation that is disguised as 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:30.000 a counter narcotics operation. Famously, nor Diega, it was not 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.600 a war. It was an arrest of a foreign leader 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.800 who was indeed involved in drug trafficking. And we knew 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:43.480 that because he was literally a CIA asset whose drug 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.119 trafficking was being protected as long as he was allied 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.840 with the US against Cuban backed rebel groups in Central America. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.639 But at some point later he became too much of 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.080 embarrassment for the US. Was genuinely a brutal guy. Pulled 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.640 off the torture murder of Google Spot offortile, all sorts 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.960 of nasty things. But the big difference is at that 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.840 time and when I lived there, the US had multiple 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.000 military basis in Panama. Panama was the headquarters of the 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.520 US Southern Command, the Western Hemisphere, headquarters. 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:16.119 Of the Pentagon. 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.600 We had thirteen thousand troops already there ready to go. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.639 I think they doubled that for the invasion, which was 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.160 officially termed Operation Just Cause, usually called Operation Blue Spoon. 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:27.640 But they had to come with the sex of your day. 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.400 And of course Panama is a tiny country and Venezuela 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:33.800 is twenty times larger than Panama. 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:35.720 Yeah, it's fuss, so it's very odd. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.399 It's obviously they have deployed many more troops and a 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:44.000 much larger fleet than it's necessary for a counter narcotics operation. Incidentally, 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.720 it's the US Coast Guard that carries out counter narcotics 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:52.719 interdictions and does it very effectively, and incidentally does it 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:58.720 with the cooperation of other countries which coordinate intelligence or 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:04.920 just simply surveillance of suspicious ships or boats or planes 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.119 and tip off the US Coast Guard. Even the Cuban 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.119 government does that. In fact, it's the Coast Guard that 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.080 is the US agency that has the best relationships with Cuba. 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:18.280 It's oftentimes diplomacy kind of starts with the Coastguard's ties 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.720 with Cuba. But anyway, that aside, it doesn't make sense 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.800 from a counter narcotics standpoint, because look, if you actually 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.120 wanted to break up a cartel, what do you do? 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.440 I mean, if you are a prosecutor investigator, right, you 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.440 capture the smugglers, you seize the cargo, the contraband, which 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.359 is evidence. Then you try to flip them up for 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.840 immunity for whoever your real targets are. Maybe your target 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.760 is Maduro or someone else in the regime. But you 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:48.800 can't do that when you kill everyone on the boat. Yeah, right, 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.840 And I think the fact that in I think the 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.240 latest boat strike, they didn't manage to kill everyone, and 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:56.600 a couple of them got away, and then the US, 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.200 rather than charge them with a crime, they just turned 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.960 them back around. And you would think that if the 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:07.000 US is so certain that the people on those boats 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:11.320 are drug trafficking terrorists that they want to kill them, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.359 then you'd think they would have enough evidence to charge 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.520 them to prosecute them of them. Apparently not. So this 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:19.800 is all to say the idea that this is a 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.080 counternarcocks operation doesn't hold up. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:22.640 Clearly. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.120 It is meant to be more of a regime change operation, 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.320 but again I don't see how the one leads to 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:29.800 the other. I believe that Trump thinks that if he 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:34.200 just saber rattles a little bit and possibly tries some 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.680 decapitation strikes the way that the US did on Soleimani 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:41.320 and Iran, that's somehow the regime is going to collapse, 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.400 and that does not make any sense. Maduro has surrounded 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.959 himself with the security, a lot of it, including through 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:49.879 Cuban advisors. 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.120 He keeps his whereabouts very secret. 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.600 Even if somehow they were to drone strike him, it's 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.120 not as if the regime as a whole would all 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:05.400 because it is an extremely militarized regime that is upheld 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:08.800 by the armed forces who are not going to break 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.560 with him. Because they have a hand in every lucrative 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.919 business both legal and illegal, in Venezuela. 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:17.199 They're not going to be. 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.840 Paid off or not be swayed by a bounty that 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.080 is currently what something like fifty million dollars. I mean, 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.080 there are people around Madula that have made upwards of 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:29.119 a billion dollars in oil rents. So it's not like 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:30.800 you could pay off people to betray either. 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:32.760 Yeah, and it's not. Nor is it like a cult 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.000 of personality situation, like certainly not. Now, Java has had 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.520 something of a sort of charismatic leadership role, but Madula 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:42.639 is not that. So let's talk about the opposition in 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.119 Venezuela in so much as like I guess if we 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.760 go back to the election last year, right, that start 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:53.720 with the election and explain to people what happened there 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:57.760 and then the subsequent sort of avenues that are now 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:00.960 open or the avenues of that opposition and is now exploring, 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:01.600 if that's okay. 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.400 But there was an election quote unquote that took place 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.639 last year. It was broker largely by the US. The 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:12.760 US under the my administration was pushing for some kind 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:17.560 of negotiations between the opposition and Venezuelan government. They convinced 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:21.840 enough people in the opposition to stand for elections under 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.080 what was called the Barbados Agreement in twenty twenty three. 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:28.200 And this was meant to be in exchange of partial 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:32.560 lifting the sectoral sanctions that have been in place on 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:35.680 Venezuela for a long time, in which the Trump administration. 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:39.080 The first Trump administration really tightened in exchange for the 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.480 Vodora government agreeing to stand for elections, and those elections 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:48.280 happened last year. It was pretty clear from free electoral 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:52.800 surveys and from exit polls and from the vote returns 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.080 that were coming in at the time, that the opposite Cacada, 0:24:56.160 --> 0:24:58.240 was going to win by an enormous march, by a 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:02.440 thirty five point margin. The candidate was officially in Mundo Gonzales, 0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:07.360 but he was candidates mostly because Murray Cornea and Matado, 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:11.720 the now Nobel Prize laureate, was barred from running. So 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:16.040 she for blessing to Gonzales to be basically her proxy, 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:19.240 and people were more or less voting for both of them, 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.000 so to speak. But both he and her are much 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.399 more popular. Maduro, who by all accounts as an extremely 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:28.960 unpopular leader, especially in contrast to as you said, Ugu Chavas, who, 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.639 for all his faults, was a genuinely charismatic yeah leader, 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.200 and you know, he did stand for elections and win them, 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:36.960 you know, pretty convincingly. 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:38.720 Incidentally, oil the. 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:41.000 Price of oil was about one hundred dollars a barrel 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:44.400 when he was president, and he was able to spend 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:46.240 a lot on social programs, but that is sid Yeah, 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:50.399 it helps. Madudo is pretty unpopular with this point. He 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:53.520 is pretty widely seen as both a tyrant and also 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:58.240 quite incompetent at managing basic state services. So he was 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:00.600 going to lose unless he stole the what he did. 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.399 The CNE the Vegetlain and Election Board announced that he 0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:06.360 had won with just fifty one percent of the vote, 0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:07.880 which is I have to say, I give him credit 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:09.679 for being subtle. I expected them to announce that he 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:11.399 won with like ninety nine percent of the vote. 0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:13.080 Yeah, and a sad margin. 0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:16.280 Yeah, yeah, No one believed it, And I have to 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.240 say one of my critiques of the bottom administration is 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.359 that I think the whole thing was rather naive. I 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:25.119 think they calculated that somehow Maduro would let himself be 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:28.280 voted out of office. Maduro is we talked about under 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:30.920 a bounty, has a bounty on his head. Many people 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:33.160 in the US politics, of the US Republican in particular, 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:34.720 have promised that they're going to send him to jail. 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:37.560 So why would someone in that position, you know, give 0:26:37.680 --> 0:26:39.160 up power. I think, you know, he saw what happened 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:41.680 to Kadafi and he's, you know, he doesn't want to 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:44.240 be jailed or killed. And at the same time, the 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:47.919 stick part of the Karen and Stick mechanism was that 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.520 they would simply go back to the sanctions that existed before, 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:53.080 which was called a snapback. And these those sanctions that 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:57.560 the Venezuelan government has weathered for for many, many years, 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:01.359 so it's not really that much of a disincentive. So anyway, 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:04.679 everyone basically admits at this point that he stole the election, 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:06.760 but what are you going to do about it? The opposition, 0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:11.919 for its part, has taken different approaches to how to 0:27:12.000 --> 0:27:16.320 confront him and is famously very divided. The Venezuelan opposition 0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:18.200 has never really been on the same page. They've never 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:22.440 really had an uncontested leader. Bray CORNEYA Machado is about 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:26.159 the closest they have had, but she herself really represents 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:28.880 more one wing of the opposition, the more you might 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:31.720 say hard line wing. For a long time, there was 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:35.399 a hard line wing personify by Lopez, and there was 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:37.920 a more I don't know if you call it a 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:42.000 soft line or liberal or just more willing to talk 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:44.399 to the regime wing led by Capriles. 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:46.960 Who ran against Alto in the first election. 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.359 And it's even within those factions there are there competing personality. 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:52.600 It's a lot of it really is more personal and ideological. 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:57.200 But Marie Corna Machado, she is on the right politically. 0:27:57.760 --> 0:28:01.679 She you know, styles herself after Margaret that she is also, 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:04.440 I will give a credit for this, a very good organizer. 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:07.480 She is famously kind of gone into communities that have 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:11.240 historically voted with the Cha Vista left and convinced many 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:16.520 people to leave that coalition. And also to have her credit, 0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:19.359 you know, I would say she is a very brave person. 0:28:19.840 --> 0:28:22.200 She has remained into the country at a time that 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:26.160 many most opposition leaders, including Amerdo Gonzalez A, plied the country. Yeah, 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:29.040 and she's been in hiding. She knows that the regime 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:32.480 would arrest, if not kill her at its soonest opportunity. 0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:35.760 Yet she still shows up unannounced at at events, at 0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:39.920 rallies and makes speeches. So she has achieved this kind 0:28:39.920 --> 0:28:43.320 of mythic figure and this is something that obviously is 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:47.040 only going to grow with the Nobel Prize. So then 0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:50.640 the question is what will this Nobel do. I think 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:53.600 that one calculation is that it will simply keep her alive. 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:56.920 You know, it'll be much harder for the material government 0:28:56.960 --> 0:28:59.560 to kill her if you know, if they would be 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:01.960 killing an be laureate, So that may buy her a 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:02.720 little bit more time. 0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:05.920 Try to best them on the first one to kill 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:06.760 a novel laureate. 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:10.360 I guess, right, right, yeah, But you know, will it 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:12.920 bring peace? I'm not so sure, because Marik Gordon Machaalo 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.280 has also been very closely allied and supportive of the 0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:19.920 Trump administration, and her side of the opposition has been 0:29:20.120 --> 0:29:24.680 encouraging the military strikes, backing sanctions, even though the sanctions 0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:27.760 both have done nothing to dislodge Maduro and also contribute 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:30.160 to a great deal of suffering for the Venezuelan people. 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:32.520 And I have to say, look, I'm not Venezuela. I 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:35.320 have no right to give it the Venezuelan opposition advice. 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.880 I would say that if they have tried multiple elections, 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:41.840 you know, at least two of which have been stolen. 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:44.880 If they have tried, you know, you might say more 0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:48.200 democratic means, and nothing has happened. I can understand why 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.000 many people would think that a more radical approach is 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:54.360 the only option left on the table. However, that approach 0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.360 hasn't done anything either, you know, sanctions have not to 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:02.120 dislodge Maduro. Blowing up boats of possible drug traffickers, maybe 0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:04.160 just fishermen has not done anything. 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:07.280 I think that nothing. 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:10.560 Appears likely to lead to regime change. But I can 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:16.080 understand the desperation of people living under what is broadly 0:30:16.080 --> 0:30:18.080 acknowledged to be an extremely repressive region. 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:21.280 Yeah, and just the grinding poverty of everyday life in 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.760 Venezuela is so like I've heard so many stories from 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:28.520 so many people of such a difficult existence there. I 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:43.520 can understand people's desperation, Andrew, you know, it's spoken about 0:30:43.520 --> 0:30:47.160 it like the Gulf between the government of Trinidad and 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:49.680 Tobago and the people of Trinidad and Tobago right now, 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:52.120 And obviously the same is true in Venezuela. 0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:52.360 Right. 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.959 It's not the opposition figures living in Spain who suffer 0:30:56.160 --> 0:30:59.920 when we have these sanctions, Right, it's not opposition can 0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:03.120 to get blown up when they go fishing. It's regular 0:31:03.160 --> 0:31:05.880 working class when it's way than people. Yeah, so do 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:08.520 you want to talk about like, I'm not even sure 0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:12.000 what we can do by way of solidarity with these 0:31:12.160 --> 0:31:14.600 of these nations, But maybe you have some thoughts on that. 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:20.600 I'm honestly at something of our loss myself, speaking from 0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:26.240 a small island, I think the US's superpower status is 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:30.200 almost like into an eltriche horror. It feels like it's 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:33.760 unfathomable how you could even go about approaching Other times, 0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:37.680 you don't try to remind myself that people have thought, 0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:41.120 and one you know, people have resisted, and one you know, 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:45.040 currently there isn't that much going on. 0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:45.880 There are murmurs. 0:31:46.120 --> 0:31:50.640 They are momas of fair of disdain or disagreement, of distrust. 0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:54.640 In terms of grassroots effort, there's a lot still to 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:55.200 be done. 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.280 The leader of the move On for. 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:01.560 Social Justice, which is a small a progressive political party 0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:04.960 in Toronto, Bago, it's a guy named David Abdullah, and 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:09.520 he has been part of this assembly of Caribbean people 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:15.400 who have been signing and issuing a declaration reasserting our 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:19.160 desire for peace, and that has been signed by various 0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:24.800 progressive organizations, social movements and figures across the Caribbean. And 0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:28.640 there was also an effort last week Thursday, that's October sixteenth, 0:32:29.280 --> 0:32:35.120 to organize a regionwide day of action in defense of 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:38.400 the Caribbean, and so different actions were taking place all 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:41.880 over in fifteen countries. We had press conferences, we had 0:32:41.880 --> 0:32:44.440 state months, and we had pickets at sit in US 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:47.440 embassys and public demonstrations. It was kind of in the 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:49.280 middle of the day on a Thursday, so there wasn't 0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:51.960 that big of its out from Baraiso when I had gone, 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:56.640 but it shows that there is and from the at 0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:00.840 least anecdotal experience, there is a desire to keep the 0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:04.959 US out of the situation, you know, despite the issues 0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:08.080 of the Venezuelan government, despite the issues of our own governments. 0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:10.719 We don't want intervention, you know. 0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:15.080 And right now, all we can really levy is our voices, 0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:18.520 you know, our woods and all we can really do. 0:33:18.680 --> 0:33:23.160 I think, besides protest, what is going on is prepare 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.480 for the worst, to ensure that we have you know, 0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:29.640 sit and support systems in place in case, you know, 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:30.640 push comes to shove. 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:34.640 Yeah, that's pretty bleak, Michael. Do you have anything to 0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:37.920 add on how people can can be in solidarity with 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:39.479 the people of Venezuela currently. 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:43.640 Well, I've been calling for people broadly throughout the world 0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:48.239 to have solidarity more with people than with states, and 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:52.320 certainly with veness world people as opposed to the Venezuelan state. 0:33:52.920 --> 0:33:56.239 I wrote something for the Center or International Policy about this, 0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:59.640 and listen, you know, it's not my place to police 0:33:59.640 --> 0:34:02.040 the left, so to speak. But you know, as someone 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:06.040 speaking personally who comes from the labor movement, you know, 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:10.200 comes from the Bernie Allied left, so to speak, you know, 0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:12.840 I do think it's been a little bit uncomfortable to 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:17.880 observe how certain elements of the global left have have 0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:20.160 stood up for the Madu regime, or the very least 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:23.799 been The criticism of it has been taboo. And I 0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:25.480 think a lot of that is a legacy of Tapas 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:29.799 Chapas having this strong personal charisma, but also that he 0:34:29.920 --> 0:34:33.000 was willing to confront the United States the Bush administration 0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:35.920 at a time of the Iraq War, you know, especially 0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:40.800 low point in the US's global reputation. Also Venezuela's oil 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:43.879 rants at the time, which we're financing a lot of 0:34:43.920 --> 0:34:46.920 not just social programs Venezuela, but a lot of financial 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:52.120 largests to Allied states and movements around around the region. 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:58.840 So a lot of left parties reflexively defended Maduro even 0:34:59.040 --> 0:35:03.480 as his repression and mismanagement just ramped up. I will 0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:05.479 say that's fading. You know, we were seeing this within 0:35:05.680 --> 0:35:08.640 Latin America. First of all, there's kind of a generational divide, 0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:10.680 and some of the older generational Latin American left, like 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:16.080 Lula or like Petro, have not been overwhelmingly anti Maduru, 0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:19.239 but have expressed skepticism about the electoral results. But then 0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:22.760 there's a younger generation such as Borich and Chile, Chile 0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:26.160 and Idavolo and Guatemala who have been openly very critical 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:30.640 about Duro and want to just not let him or 0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:33.560 his camp so to speak, define what it means to 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:37.080 be on the left. And really the only countries that 0:35:37.120 --> 0:35:40.800 have unquestionably backed him at this point are Bolivia, Cuba, 0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:43.719 but also outside of the region, Russia, Iran, China. So 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:47.040 I think that we should ask ourselves, like, who do 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:49.880 we think is a more credible arbiter of progressive values? 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:53.160 Is it Borich and Chile or is it Putin, you know, 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.560 even not even the commonist part of Venezuela and no 0:35:56.640 --> 0:36:00.520 longer that's one of my favorite facts, as he has 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:03.719 had their militants killed, you know, allegedly as well. 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:05.840 So it's just it's not. 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:09.360 Helpful to view the world for in this campus lens. 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:12.440 You know, I think that if people, whether they identify 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:16.000 as on the left or or whatever, want to show solidarity, 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.280 I think it should be with the Venezuelan people, which means. 0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:20.080 Listening to voices within civil society. 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:21.000 In Venezuela. 0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:22.799 There are a lot of NGOs, there are a lot 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:25.320 of labor unions, there are a lot of human rights 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:29.720 advocates that are not opposition parties, that are not running 0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:32.560 for office. They're not necessarily calling for regime change. Made 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:36.640 them very critical of sanctions, but they have tried to 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:41.239 push for better changes, you know, quality of life, you know, 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:44.560 reforms that might lead to less repression, open up more 0:36:44.600 --> 0:36:48.920 space for civil society, and you know, those things are 0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:51.200 necessary when people are really living. 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:52.000 Day by day, you know. 0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.560 And I think that if people on the left want 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:56.640 to play the long game and understand care about the 0:36:56.680 --> 0:36:59.400 prospects of the future, they need to understand that the 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:03.160 Maduers is the worst model for them to be associated with, 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:07.000 you know. And this has already been taking place with campaigns, 0:37:07.000 --> 0:37:10.040 selectoral campaigns around Latin America where Cannon's on the right 0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:13.359 run against the boogeyman of you know, Chabbismo, of like 0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:18.440 of a Maduro model, and it makes sense. And if 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:19.960 a lot of people on the left are very skeptical 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:22.560 of Maria Croneamachado, like I have skeptism about some of 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:26.480 for policy platforms of you know, privatization and and other 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:30.879 neoliberal ideas, they also shouldn't be surprised if there's been 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:37.400 a decade of people being told that this model of corruption, authoritarianism, 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:41.239 state terror, criminal insecurity, that's what socialism is. Then people 0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:43.839 are gonna believe that, and then they're going to then 0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:47.759 their vote against whatever that is. And this model has 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:51.560 provoked you know, the greatest refugee crisis, certainly in the region, 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:52.560 eight million people. 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:54.319 They're all carrying. 0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:57.239 With them stories about why they left right And so 0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:01.600 if there ever were to be democratic collections in Venezuela, 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:03.600 it's pretty clear the country would turn to the right. 0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:05.839 And I don't think we should be surprised by that, 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:06.440 you know. 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:09.800 And I think we should also recognize that many of 0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:14.680 the things that Maludor embodies, these strong men politics, are 0:38:14.760 --> 0:38:17.680 things that are embodied by other strong men, not just 0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:18.640 on the left too. 0:38:18.760 --> 0:38:18.920 You know. 0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:22.120 I would just point out that least according to his son, 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:25.840 Trump has privately expressed a lot of admiration for Madudo. 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:28.319 I read John Bolton's book, and you know, the former 0:38:28.400 --> 0:38:31.239 National Security Visor. You know, maybe he has a lot 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:33.080 of reasons to lie, but you know, he did say 0:38:33.120 --> 0:38:37.640 that Trump privately expressed a lot of admirasy for Maludor being, 0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:40.120 in his words, too smart and too tough to be overthrown. 0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:43.799 You know, was really happy to see him sprounded by 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.880 what he called all these good looking generals. He disparage 0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:50.360 one Guido calling him the Beto Rourke of Venezuela means 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:53.319 you know, so, I think that there is there's something 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:58.040 he said about strong men recognizing strong men, and a 0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:02.200 lot of these authoritarian lesson are not limited to one 0:39:02.239 --> 0:39:03.719 side of the ideological spectrum. 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:07.839 Yeah, definitely. I find that tendency on the American left 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.680 or and that sort of Internet left to be massively frustrating. 0:39:11.719 --> 0:39:14.320 Like as someone who went there to see the revolution, 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:19.000 who went there to understand it, and who spent masses 0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:23.200 of time with Venezuelan people in the Darien Gap at 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:27.280 the border in Venezuela, I'm very fond of Venezuelan people, 0:39:27.360 --> 0:39:30.040 and I think, yeah, our sort of direity should be 0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:32.560 with them, not with some strong man's state. We saw 0:39:32.560 --> 0:39:37.680 this in Syria as well, right Like, it is heartbreaking, 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.960 genuinely heartbreaking to explain to people how someone who identifies 0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:46.879 as a leftist is also denying that their children were 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:51.480 gassed by chemical weapons in Syria. Right This campus graze tendency, 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:56.440 and the American lefts specifically, is incredibly toxic, and anybody 0:39:56.520 --> 0:40:00.840 who seriously considers themselves to be a lest it's massively 0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:04.279 undermining any credibility they have when they associate themselves with 0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:07.480 regimes which willingly murder their own people. I would like 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:11.680 to see people stop doing that. Perhaps both of you 0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:15.640 could finish up by suggesting US coverage of this has 0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:17.960 not been great, right like, it tends to focus on 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:21.200 the United States very much, and of Venezuela kind of 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:25.120 appears as a monolithic entity. Turning down Tobago rarely gets 0:40:25.120 --> 0:40:27.960 any coverage in the US media. I did see I 0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:30.160 think Reuter's or AP had done a piece about how 0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:32.640 fishermen were elected to go out. I would like to 0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:35.319 see more of that kind of reporting. Perhaps both of 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:38.920 you could suggest a couple of sources where people could 0:40:38.960 --> 0:40:39.560 read about this. 0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:43.200 Sure, at least on my end, I suggest looking into 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:48.480 all local news. Now, it's not the best source in 0:40:48.560 --> 0:40:53.880 terms of actual interrogation of the issues and the ways 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.080 in which some of the narratives just kind of get 0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:01.719 repeated uncritically, but you do get at least the occasional interview, 0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:06.920 the occasional quote from a non ust Department source. I 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:09.759 would also suggest on Instagram there are a couple of 0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:16.080 pages that bring a more radical progressive voice from the Caribbean. 0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:19.920 There's a page called Vintage Caribbean and there's another page 0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:23.160 called Trinbiago for Palestine, and both of those have been 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:26.560 doing a lot of coverage on this particular incident lately, 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:29.120 So you can look through those as well if you 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:31.680 want to get us sort of a grassroots steak on 0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:32.320 the situation. 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:37.000 Yeah, I don't really have any go to sources on this. 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:39.960 I would say that it's enough of an interaction once 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:40.479 and that all. 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:42.000 The major news sources you're covering it. 0:41:42.560 --> 0:41:45.719 So you can read really any news source in Latin 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:49.120 America if you speak Spanish Portuguese and see how that 0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:52.360 recording is different. Also, incidentally, by in Spain, you know 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:53.480 quotes on the side. 0:41:53.480 --> 0:41:55.880 They do pretty good reporting. Yeah, they've been doing pretty. 0:41:55.640 --> 0:41:58.319 Good reporting and there's lots of blogs as well, and 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:02.080 you know, newsletters check out. I will say, just made this. 0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:04.319 I'm biased because I focus a lot on crime. The 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:07.560 site Insight Crime is pretty good in terms of looking 0:42:07.600 --> 0:42:11.480 into specific criminal groups, liked Aragua and calling question if 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.040 you know, if this really is a you know, it's 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:17.080 something that is controlled by the puppet master from you know, Flores, 0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:18.920 you know, Likeldor and some of these, some of these 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:20.560 narratives that are justifying this. 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:22.240 I'd also just as. 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:25.000 A recommendation, I would say, you know, maybe it should 0:42:25.000 --> 0:42:27.600 be a little bit skeptical too about the timing and 0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:31.080 the purposes of these things. I did point out in 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:33.560 a piece that I wrote for the Center for National Policy. 0:42:34.040 --> 0:42:36.359 Then the first boat strike happened on the same day 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:40.839 that the House Judiciary Committee was releasing a redacted number 0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:42.960 of files related to the Jeffrey Epstein case. You know, 0:42:43.040 --> 0:42:47.560 and I think that there are many reasons why this 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:53.200 administration would I would like to use this confrontation as 0:42:53.239 --> 0:42:57.120 a conmane distraction from from other things that they would 0:42:57.200 --> 0:42:58.200 rather not be talking about. 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:02.399 Yeah, leak, I think it's probably a reasonable conclusion. Give 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:04.719 them where we're at. Where can people find both of 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:06.960 you on if they want to follow you online on 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:11.319 social media or find more of your writing. We'll start 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:12.160 with you, Andrew. 0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:13.880 Shure, Well, you can find me on my YouTube channel 0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:17.200 YouTube dot com, slash Andrew's own, or you could just 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:20.120 call my website for all my other links, Andrew sage 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:20.799 dot org. 0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:23.400 How about you, Michael, I do have a website. You 0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:25.480 can look up my name and that should come up. 0:43:25.520 --> 0:43:28.160 I haven't updated it recently, I probably should. I'm also 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:33.320 on Twitter x blue Sky as my name m. 0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:37.279 P A A R L B B r G, so 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:38.279 you can look me up there. 0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:40.000 Great, Thank you very much. 0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:40.319 With you. 0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:00.520 Welcome to it up here a podcast where you good 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:04.600 and not everything that is called co op is good. 0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:08.160 Sometimes they're not actually really co ops. 0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.799 I am your host, Mia Long, and today we are 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:17.400 joined by the people struggling under the tyrannical fist of 0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:19.880 a co op, a thing that shouldn't be possible and 0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:21.160 yet somehow. 0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:24.200 Yeah. 0:44:24.280 --> 0:44:27.840 Yeah, So we are talking today with Es and Finley, 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:31.799 who are booksellers at the Seminary co Op in Chicago. 0:44:32.080 --> 0:44:35.920 And yeah, we are welcoming the union back to the show. 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:39.400 And dear God, what a disaster. 0:44:41.800 --> 0:44:42.799 What a year it has been. 0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:46.080 Well, it's really great to be found. I wish we 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:49.600 were back with slightly better news or yeah, since we 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:55.640 were last here, certainly, Yeah, because when we last spoke, 0:44:55.719 --> 0:45:00.480 we had just sort of theatrically announced to our management 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:03.240 that we were in an organized shop with the IWW 0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:07.799 and we were going to be bargaining with them for 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:12.000 better wages and humane working conditions. 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:12.000 For us all. 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:14.840 And they were like, yeah, you're a union, we so 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:18.360 recognize that, and then they have sat on their hands 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:19.040 ever since. 0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:23.719 Yeah, so let's roll back all the way to the 0:45:23.760 --> 0:45:26.200 beginning and explain a little bit about what the Seminary 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:29.239 co Op is for people who weren't here. How many 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:30.480 years ago was that though? 0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:33.080 That must have been last year. 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:36.479 Yeah, yeah, it was a while ago. 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:39.920 I don't know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:42.960 So the Seminary co Op is a set of two 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:45.919 bookstores in Hyde Park. The Seminary co Op Bookstore, which 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:50.560 is a misnomer on two out of free counts, it's 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:52.760 not a seminary anymore. It's not a co op anymore. 0:45:52.760 --> 0:45:54.920 It is still a bookstore, although it is a not 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:59.960 for profit bookstore, which is a mysterious category of business, 0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:03.759 said that doesn't exist anywhere else, baffling. 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:07.840 Yeah, briefly, just to enerject, I do think when I 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:10.480 would announce events and sort of give this exact breakdown 0:46:10.520 --> 0:46:13.399 for audiences, like I said, not for profit bookstore whose 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:16.279 mission is book selling, right, And when I was hired of, 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:19.680 like about three months before we announced we were unionizing, 0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:22.200 the way it was put to me was other not 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.000 for profit bookstores, they do a lot with like family literacy, 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:29.960 or like specifically around women's issues. But that was just 0:46:30.360 --> 0:46:33.319 like an acknowledgement of the reality that bookstores don't make 0:46:33.360 --> 0:46:35.840 a whole lot of money, and what we are providing 0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:40.200 is a not for profit bookstore is just the browsing experience. 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:42.440 We kept books on shelves for too long. It just 0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:45.560 it seemed like a like a really romantic idea of 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:47.400 book selling that didn't have like a whole lot of 0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:50.800 legs underneath it, so to speak. Yeah, so it is nonsense, 0:46:50.920 --> 0:46:52.400 I would say, but that's me. 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:58.239 It's just real library, Like we have this, it's called library, 0:46:58.840 --> 0:46:59.400 so they're. 0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:07.080 Really big book store. Just I don't know, it was vague, yeah. 0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:08.919 Baffling, baffling, yes, yeah, And then I guess. I guess 0:47:09.200 --> 0:47:11.799 the second part of it is like when they say 0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:13.600 it's a co op, what does that mean? 0:47:14.120 --> 0:47:18.000 It means truly and as conspeaks more that it was 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:22.400 founded by Chicago Theological Seminary students and there was a 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:22.960 reason for that. 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:26.319 Yeah, like they did want to buy corsebooks at the 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:29.239 at the prices that retailers got them wholesale, and so 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:32.560 the thought was, I forget their names, but we have 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.000 the pictures of them. It was like a Cavanaugh or something. 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:37.880 But these two guys just you know, if you were 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:41.120 a student at Chicago Theological Seminary, we're even like a 0:47:41.160 --> 0:47:44.279 student at one of the other divinity seminaries nearby. You 0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:46.680 just put an amount of money and you were part 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:49.640 of like you got your course book cheaper, you know, 0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:53.759 and under like a specific manager who came like a 0:47:53.800 --> 0:47:56.799 couple decades after that, Like then it really became like 0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:59.239 this is the neighborhood bookstore. This is part of, like 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:02.560 as say, like the intellectual sort of cultural life of 0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:04.920 the university. But yeah, at one point it was a 0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:07.399 cooperative because like you were a member and you got 0:48:07.400 --> 0:48:10.080 your course books cheaper because you you know, had a 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:12.839 certain amount of shares in the books. But yeah, it 0:48:12.880 --> 0:48:14.840 was a think smarter, not harder kind of scheme. 0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:19.200 And then when they dissolved the like ownership shares and 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:22.200 stopped being a co op. That was twenty nineteen when 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:25.440 they organized as this not for profit. It's not a 0:48:25.480 --> 0:48:28.320 five oh one C three, they don't have nonprofit status. 0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:31.279 It's this slightly different thing. And so one of the 0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:33.759 one things that has happened in the past year is 0:48:33.760 --> 0:48:36.759 we had an interim director who got us like basically 0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:40.560 a nonprofit sponsor who lends its five oh one C 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:43.839 three status to other organizations and allows you to take 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:45.560 text deductible donations. 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:46.560 But like, up to that. 0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:49.239 Point, we couldn't do that because we were not a 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:51.719 legitimate nonprofit. We were this other thing. 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:57.480 Yeah, so since twenty nineteen it's been that, and then 0:48:57.560 --> 0:49:02.360 since twenty twenty four, it's been that plus Chicago's standalone 0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:03.480 unionized bookstore. 0:49:04.120 --> 0:49:07.680 For now, we're hoping that others follow in la they will. 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:11.279 Yes, I feel like it is not a great sign 0:49:11.960 --> 0:49:15.919 of your business being a well run when you are 0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:20.399 doing a thing that like rookie activist campaigns do, when 0:49:20.400 --> 0:49:22.439 they're like, oh shit, we got a bunch of buddy, 0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:26.480 we need to borrow someone else's five O one three status, 0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:32.240 Like yeah, great, great job management, like but incredible stuff. 0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:35.799 And like, for me, part of what's been so like 0:49:36.480 --> 0:49:39.960 just mind boggling is like the not for profit bookstore 0:49:39.960 --> 0:49:42.080 who's messed this. Book selling does sort of give this, 0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:44.560 you know, if we're like a five oh one C 0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:46.600 three who often does it they don't turn a profit 0:49:46.680 --> 0:49:49.080 or what they do they reinvest it back into the 0:49:49.160 --> 0:49:52.080 operations they're doing. But like part of and we can 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:54.239 talk more about this as we get into like the bargaining, 0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:57.520 but like store financials have been so obscured, and I 0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:01.560 hate from like truly truly hate from linguistic standpoint, just 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:03.719 sort of this subtle like, oh, we must not be 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:06.440 doing well because to me that feels like the rhetoric 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:10.160 that really justifies the pack that I'm paid sixteen ninety 0:50:10.160 --> 0:50:12.040 an hour and I have a Master's of Divinity from 0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:14.080 the Seminary of the Seminary co Op. 0:50:14.280 --> 0:50:16.120 Yeah, well, and it's and I think it's also worth 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:20.759 noting that, like even from the perspective of capital, like 0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:24.239 all of the giant tech companies didn't make money for 0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:28.040 like decades and all those motherfuckers were walking off with 0:50:28.640 --> 0:50:32.440 like one hundred billion dollar payouts, you know, like they 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:34.680 only ever started making money when they started like reeling 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:36.880 in a bunch of government contracts for like web services 0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:39.239 and like defense contracts and shit. And it's like, I 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:41.440 don't know, like this is this is I guess on topic, 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:43.600 but it's just something that makes you really mad. Where 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:46.760 people talk about like running the government like a business 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:48.080 and then like you know, you get like the post 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:49.799 office where it's like, oh, the post Office doesn't run 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:51.600 a profit. It's like j you know, doesn't run a 0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:55.680 fucking profit. Uber literally has never brought a profit ever, 0:50:56.239 --> 0:51:00.640 not once, yes, no once, right, like no, like like 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:03.839 I'm sorry, welcome, welcome to Welcome to fuck. Twenty twenty five. 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:08.200 Capitalism like companies don't make profits. They either get contact 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:11.480 from the government or their entire existence is either conting 0:51:11.560 --> 0:51:14.520 some venture capitalists dipshits out of all of their money, 0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:18.480 or it's like peer theel has decided that your like 0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:22.160 surveillance camera company is ideologically important to him taking over 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.160 the world, so he's going to give you one billion 0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:27.680 dollars and it's like, oh, no, I'm sorry, Like our 0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:29.759 financials aren't good enough for you to pay you. 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:33.399 It's like, motherfucker, Like have you seen the rest of capitalism? 0:51:33.680 --> 0:51:35.280 Like shit pay. 0:51:35.080 --> 0:51:38.520 Your workers, Like yeah, oh yeah, God damn well. 0:51:38.719 --> 0:51:42.080 We keep using that one meme over and over and 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:44.560 then it is true, like we're trying to balance the budget. 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:45.600 It's true. 0:51:45.840 --> 0:51:53.279 The candles drill, thank yeah, yeah, because our management is 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:57.600 so infuriating. And they also in the year since we've 0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:01.120 been bargaining having an interim director and spent most of 0:52:01.160 --> 0:52:05.080 his tenure searching for an executive director to take over, 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:08.360 that person is being paid one hundred and sixty thousand 0:52:08.440 --> 0:52:12.120 dollars a year to our knowledge, Jesus Christ. 0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:13.080 And that's the. 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:16.080 Offer that we know of. We have yet to get 0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:18.600 his contract, even though we did make a formal information 0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:19.440 request for it. 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:22.600 Yeah, which is fucked. And it's also like yeah, like 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:26.320 every time these companies are like, oh, we don't have money, 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:31.439 and it's like, okay, I can find like an unbelievable 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.400 amount of money that you have given to someone to 0:52:34.560 --> 0:52:38.440 like to give a random, nonspecific example that has nothing 0:52:38.480 --> 0:52:41.640 to do with with with any company that is in 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.480 any way related to this show. 0:52:45.840 --> 0:52:46.640 Live or Dead. 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:52.720 By a board Ape Yacht Club NFT. 0:52:54.360 --> 0:52:58.799 Like this is like there's spent three hundred dollars on 0:52:59.239 --> 0:53:03.240 Google homes speakers for fifty seventh Street books and I'm like, wow, 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:06.280 my having that three hundred dollars would change my life. 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:11.160 But also like, you're paying that union busting lawyer thousands 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:13.680 of dollars that you could be paid reverse. Yep, but 0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:14.960 that's that's capitalism. 0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:17.719 Yeah, they have enough money to make your lives miserable, 0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:21.000 but they apparently never have enough money to you know, 0:53:21.280 --> 0:53:24.160 like bake your lives not miserable, because they have to 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:26.600 spend that money on making your lives miserable. 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:31.280 Yeah, and it's so intentional because making us miserable means 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:35.120 that they are wearing down the number of people that 0:53:35.160 --> 0:53:37.359 they have to deal with and making the people who 0:53:37.400 --> 0:53:41.000 are left so tired and so frustrated and so much 0:53:41.080 --> 0:53:42.879 less capable of fighting them. 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:47.960 Yeah, and that feels like just you know, fens leaving. 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.880 We've also had a number of folks like our bargaining 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:53.239 unit that the last time y'all spoke last year was 0:53:53.239 --> 0:53:56.879 like twenty five people. Now we're down to eleven and 0:53:56.920 --> 0:54:01.960 it's there. They've refused to hire anybody time yeah, of course, 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:05.720 but they've been giving seasonal workers sort of like extra hours, 0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:08.400 and that is someone's got to start counting they have, 0:54:08.600 --> 0:54:11.640 like unless they work for ninety days, they don't have to. 0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:14.080 And because they're seasonal, you know, YadA YadA, they don't 0:54:14.120 --> 0:54:16.600 really join our union as kind of what I understand 0:54:16.600 --> 0:54:20.200 why they are not considered eligible. But it's like, the 0:54:20.239 --> 0:54:22.040 booksellers are the heart of the store. 0:54:22.600 --> 0:54:26.400 The classification of signal workers and particularly of event runners, 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:30.640 has been a point of contention throughout negotiations this whole time, 0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:34.080 because obviously, from our perspective, we want anyone who's working 0:54:34.080 --> 0:54:37.920 in the store in any capacity to be involved in 0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:41.120 the union. We want them to not have this random 0:54:41.239 --> 0:54:44.799 scab force that they can deploy at will. Yeah, And 0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:49.440 that has always been the point that gets revisited over 0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:51.319 and over again. Just when we think we've gotten them 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:53.600 locked into being union members, they'll come back with their 0:54:53.680 --> 0:54:56.160 latest count and that's like, actually, I think because of X, 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:58.040 Y and b Z that we just changed, they're no 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:02.600 longer eligible to join your union. But they did just 0:55:02.760 --> 0:55:06.520 hire I think three people that they were training at 0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:09.120 fifty seventh Street last week. But they've made no formal 0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:13.000 announcement to anyone that these people have been hired. Yeah, 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:15.960 I only know that they were like in the stores 0:55:16.000 --> 0:55:17.680 because one of them came to the co op by 0:55:17.760 --> 0:55:19.799 mistake instead of fifty seventh Street and was like, oh, 0:55:19.800 --> 0:55:23.840 I'm one of the hires. Oh, and so it's unclear 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:26.719 if those are the seasonal workers or if those are 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:27.520 new hires. 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:31.919 Those are i'll say, the most recent member, like part time, 0:55:31.960 --> 0:55:34.960 full time member of our staff who's not me. None 0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:36.399 of us knew she was hired, and she just came 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:37.840 up took a book right off my cart and I 0:55:37.960 --> 0:55:41.800 was like, bitch, what but she But those were events, 0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:44.279 those were the seasonal workers at the store. The other day, 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:47.480 like I worked one of the Chicago Humanities events with them, 0:55:47.560 --> 0:55:50.120 and it is like, yeah, then they just changed the 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:52.560 qualification of who can be in the union. 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:56.920 Yeah, it's been very intentional, and it's been just like 0:55:57.200 --> 0:56:02.319 over and over they revisit and classified and less down. 0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:07.040 Yeah, we've done I think too. Since you last spoke, 0:56:07.480 --> 0:56:10.040 like a couple of work stoppages and then picketed outside 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:13.480 of our store as well. But that I don't know 0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:16.640 in terms of like sort of regressive bargaining to attrition 0:56:16.719 --> 0:56:18.839 that we're seeing and that like they refuse to hire 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:21.160 other people even though they're kind of shooting themselves in 0:56:21.160 --> 0:56:25.600 the foot. But just like our direct action has I 0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:28.239 think worked against what they're thinking, which is that we're 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:30.080 tired and that we're not going to fight back and 0:56:30.120 --> 0:56:33.200 that we are overwhelmed and we don't know what we're doing. 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:35.759 But there are a lot of folks who do have, 0:56:35.960 --> 0:56:38.600 you know, experience with these sort of direct actions, like 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:41.799 a work stoppage, and I think it's why it's great 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:44.960 that we're wildly's but also like I do kind of 0:56:45.000 --> 0:56:49.280 like on the work stoppage health flustered and not like upset, 0:56:49.320 --> 0:56:52.760 but just how flustered and yeah, just awkward management feels 0:56:52.840 --> 0:56:57.239 it's it's empowering for me. Yeah, but it's very much 0:56:57.280 --> 0:56:59.239 on purpose. Well, and I think that's one of these 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:05.240 it's too just like a campaign. In the broad sense 0:57:05.520 --> 0:57:10.040 of continuing direct actions during negotiations is it is that 0:57:10.160 --> 0:57:13.480 chance to connect with your coworkers and re solidify that 0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:17.080 you're fighting for something intentional in the face of the 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:21.320 fact that you will probably start being scheduled more sparsely, 0:57:21.520 --> 0:57:24.200 you will have fewer opportunities during the workday to talk 0:57:24.240 --> 0:57:27.000 to people and like that's just stuff that's going to 0:57:27.080 --> 0:57:30.280 happen while negotiations go on. But like making sure that 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:32.800 you stay in touch with your union as best you 0:57:32.840 --> 0:57:35.240 can and like show up for all the direct things 0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:39.040 that you can helps you internally combat that, which is 0:57:39.120 --> 0:57:39.880 really helpful. 0:57:40.640 --> 0:57:40.840 Yeah. 0:57:40.880 --> 0:57:41.920 And I mean, like you know, like I sound like 0:57:42.040 --> 0:57:45.760 we ran into organizing cues. We spent like I think 0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:49.640 it was two years bargaining for our contract, and they 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:53.440 didn't have the capacity to literally force half the workforce 0:57:53.520 --> 0:57:53.880 to quit. 0:57:54.040 --> 0:57:55.360 But like, oh, don't worry. 0:57:55.120 --> 0:57:57.439 They don't have the capacity to lose this many people 0:57:57.800 --> 0:58:01.960 are falling seas and they are how few people they 0:58:02.000 --> 0:58:02.960 have Yep. 0:58:03.480 --> 0:58:06.240 This whole thing is it's just like a really really 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:09.520 common managerial tactic, yeah, which is just like we're going 0:58:09.600 --> 0:58:12.439 to make everything unlivable and try to get as many 0:58:12.440 --> 0:58:14.520 people as we can to quit and then just make 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:17.760 everyone else's lives a living hell, which is like this 0:58:17.880 --> 0:58:20.960 is I think I've said this before, but it's like 0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:26.800 the extent to which the strategy is just the deliberate 0:58:26.840 --> 0:58:28.080 infliction of terror. 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:29.800 Yeah. 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:33.400 Well, and the strategy is just tank your business, which 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:37.600 seems incredibly conintuitive from their perspective. 0:58:38.320 --> 0:58:41.080 And like there have been events for like it's been 0:58:41.120 --> 0:58:44.440 a book about like Karl Marx labor organizing, whether it's 0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.840 a history or like a like sociology book, and folks 0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:49.160 are like, I waited to buy this book here because 0:58:49.160 --> 0:58:51.479 it's the union bookstore, And like there is a way 0:58:51.480 --> 0:58:54.760 that us being a union bookstore could look given like 0:58:54.800 --> 0:58:57.560 that folks on our board are really progressive, people like 0:58:57.680 --> 0:59:01.680 Adam Gettichew, like State Senator Robert Peters, who's like running 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:05.560 on a pretty pro labor background. Like us being unionized 0:59:05.600 --> 0:59:09.120 could be like we are already at tourist bookstore, like 0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:11.840 folks come from everywhere, or like this is such a 0:59:11.840 --> 0:59:16.120 famous bookstore. But like it does baffle me. It does 0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:18.400 make sense that it's a common tactic. But also there's 0:59:18.480 --> 0:59:21.040 so much that could work in their favor if they 0:59:21.040 --> 0:59:25.000 were not just like so committed to busting this union. 0:59:25.280 --> 0:59:29.520 We hold on sidebar Ale Gritch, she was my professor. 0:59:30.000 --> 0:59:31.320 Yeah, I talked to her today. 0:59:31.360 --> 0:59:32.960 Wait, she's just part of the management team. 0:59:33.000 --> 0:59:35.040 No no, no, there's okay, so this is part of 0:59:35.320 --> 0:59:35.720 it's just. 0:59:35.680 --> 0:59:37.760 Like a different thing. Okay, sorry, sorry, this is okay. 0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:39.800 No, no, no, this is This is where like us 0:59:39.840 --> 0:59:42.560 being a not for profit bookstore but not actually like 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:45.640 having any legal standing as a not for profit gets 0:59:45.640 --> 0:59:47.760 a little confusing. And like Finn, you can probably speak 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.360 more to how this has come up in the bargaining meeting. 0:59:50.440 --> 0:59:52.960 But when we I don't know if this was around 0:59:53.040 --> 0:59:56.800 before the cooperative was dissolved and shared are basically like 0:59:57.080 --> 0:59:59.680 worthless at that point. But there is a board of 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:03.760 direct ors, one of whom like is very very famous 1:00:03.800 --> 1:00:06.600 and at least among the folks I know for effectively 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:10.000 union investing employees at Experimental Station on sixty first in 1:00:10.040 --> 1:00:15.280 Blackstone when they try to unionize right. And also there 1:00:15.320 --> 1:00:19.000 are so many like Hyde Park progressives like RJP, like 1:00:19.080 --> 1:00:23.160 I Adam Getta, Chew eve Ewing as well, And these 1:00:23.160 --> 1:00:26.200 are people I really respect, but like because there's like 1:00:26.240 --> 1:00:28.960 this four cabinet, I think of folks who are have 1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:32.000 been in and out of bargaining meetings when we've had 1:00:32.400 --> 1:00:34.240 employees at other lead for unions who do have a 1:00:34.240 --> 1:00:37.800 connection to like for example, Robert Peters. It does very 1:00:37.840 --> 1:00:41.840 clear that like this governing board which does govern, they 1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:44.840 have terms, But we're also a retail outfit, you know, 1:00:45.040 --> 1:00:47.120 usually like a not for profit, the board of a 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:49.560 not for profit would be helping with like an annual 1:00:49.600 --> 1:00:53.280 fundraising campaign. It's unclear entirely what the board does in 1:00:53.320 --> 1:00:56.720 a retail outfit other than, at least in my experience, 1:00:56.840 --> 1:01:00.960 like giving advice, writing emails to try to bust this union, 1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:03.840 you know, before we unionized, albeit I had a very 1:01:03.840 --> 1:01:07.200 short tenure before we had unionized. None of these people 1:01:07.520 --> 1:01:09.800 none of their names matter to me. But because like 1:01:09.880 --> 1:01:12.600 there's so much confusion about is management going to be 1:01:12.640 --> 1:01:15.120 representing folks in the bargaining meeting or is it going 1:01:15.160 --> 1:01:18.240 to be a board member representative. I've been just who 1:01:18.280 --> 1:01:21.200 is accountable to disclose what financial information and when or 1:01:21.280 --> 1:01:25.360 just any information and when? Like, yeah, Adam Adam Yettuchu 1:01:25.440 --> 1:01:27.800 is not one of our one of our bosses. But like, 1:01:27.920 --> 1:01:31.080 there is just a lot of confusion that I feel 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:34.120 about what the board is responsible for in bargaining and 1:01:34.160 --> 1:01:36.440 with the manage and what management feels they're responsible for. 1:01:36.920 --> 1:01:38.760 And I can clear up a little bit of. 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:44.080 That because what we were told when we first unionized 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:48.560 and when the management team was kind of shifting and 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:53.800 reorganizing itself around to the board, was the board is 1:01:53.920 --> 1:02:01.160 there primarily to advise and supervise and higher the executive 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:06.720 director for the stores. And so there is a financial contribution, 1:02:06.840 --> 1:02:10.160 like they're all significant donors. That's part of the way 1:02:10.200 --> 1:02:12.520 that they secure their seats is making a large donation 1:02:12.600 --> 1:02:16.080 to the stores. But then, at least according to them, 1:02:16.480 --> 1:02:21.640 from that point forward, they have no managerial oversight over 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:24.720 the operations of the store whatsoever. It is not their responsibility. 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:27.560 They don't make any decisions about the budget, they don't 1:02:27.840 --> 1:02:31.360 get involved, they don't want to be involved. And they 1:02:31.360 --> 1:02:35.840 were embarrassed by having this attitude when previous management went 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:37.800 off the rails and nearly drove the store into the 1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:43.040 ground by buying stock on credit cards. What But then 1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:47.120 it's a cool thing that we do not have into 1:02:47.640 --> 1:02:50.440 But that's. 1:02:50.160 --> 1:02:51.960 This is bonkers. 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:53.400 Yeah, oh yeah. 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:56.680 That is to say that somehow that experience did not 1:02:56.840 --> 1:02:59.880 act as a wig up call for this board of directors, 1:03:00.040 --> 1:03:02.240 and they said, what we will do is hire the 1:03:02.240 --> 1:03:04.360 next way man we can find and take our hands 1:03:04.440 --> 1:03:05.240 back off the wheel. 1:03:05.960 --> 1:03:09.000 Jesus Christ, is this an institution that people like it 1:03:09.000 --> 1:03:11.080 would be helpful to put pressure on or. 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:15.640 That's what it's hard to say, because there's this and 1:03:15.680 --> 1:03:17.280 I think I talked about it the last time we 1:03:17.280 --> 1:03:20.160 were on the podcast. But there's this responsibility carousel between 1:03:20.160 --> 1:03:23.080 management who in a bargaining session. Because the other thing 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:25.800 is because we can't tell how involved the board is, 1:03:25.840 --> 1:03:27.960 because they tell us that they're not involved at all, 1:03:28.000 --> 1:03:30.080 and then they make decisions and we hear about the 1:03:30.120 --> 1:03:34.240 decisions that they're making. We have asked repeatedly that they 1:03:34.360 --> 1:03:36.680 be involved in bargaining and that they send someone to 1:03:36.720 --> 1:03:40.960 represent them, or they like participate and have an opinion 1:03:41.000 --> 1:03:42.880 on the way that the stores are run, and they 1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:46.920 have repeatedly refused those invitations, requests, demands, et cetera. 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:48.480 Yeah, it seems. 1:03:48.200 --> 1:03:52.000 Their involvement has been to recommend that our management hire 1:03:52.080 --> 1:03:54.320 Jenny Goltz to be their lawyer, and that as about 1:03:54.360 --> 1:03:57.440 as much as they want to do she is christ like. 1:03:57.520 --> 1:04:00.400 Two things too. Then I think there was supposed to 1:04:00.400 --> 1:04:03.080 be a board member president at the next bargaining meeting, 1:04:03.120 --> 1:04:06.600 but because our meeting was contingent on having the full 1:04:06.640 --> 1:04:10.160 financial information that we requested literally a month ago, and 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:13.560 when we requested that information the next day a board member, 1:04:13.600 --> 1:04:15.520 the president of the board said Okay, we'll get this 1:04:15.600 --> 1:04:18.800 to you. We got it. I think you might know 1:04:18.880 --> 1:04:20.960 more about the timing of this fit like at the 1:04:21.040 --> 1:04:22.720 last possible minute we. 1:04:22.760 --> 1:04:25.480 Got at the day before the meeting, oh god, yeah, 1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:28.640 and it was half of what we asked for. Yeah, 1:04:28.640 --> 1:04:30.800 and then we said this is not what we requested 1:04:30.840 --> 1:04:32.640 and we cannot meet because we said we couldn't meet 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:35.320 without this full information. They were like, we're disappointed that 1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:36.680 you can't do that, and we were. 1:04:36.520 --> 1:04:50.439 Like, yeah, shocking, Yeah, we are back. 1:04:51.720 --> 1:04:55.520 Let's get more formally into like what the marketing process 1:04:55.560 --> 1:04:58.360 has looked like. It sounds like it's been extremely chaotic. 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:03.280 They've been not turning over a information. It's deeply unclear 1:05:04.040 --> 1:05:07.720 who's making decisions which all seem and I can say, 1:05:07.720 --> 1:05:12.480 this is my professional opinion, not good a technical anout 1:05:12.600 --> 1:05:15.520 life assessment. Yeah, this is why they pay me the 1:05:15.560 --> 1:05:16.400 mediocre books. 1:05:16.560 --> 1:05:19.720 Well, I think you were just so well informed, yes. 1:05:20.720 --> 1:05:21.720 Journalistic insight. 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:26.200 Yeah. So the way that we set it up on 1:05:26.240 --> 1:05:29.360 our end when we entered into negotiations was we had 1:05:29.360 --> 1:05:31.600 a core team of three people who were going to 1:05:31.640 --> 1:05:36.000 be our core bargaining unit who would attend every meeting, 1:05:36.120 --> 1:05:39.280 and then we had a small team of like three 1:05:39.280 --> 1:05:42.280 more people including myself that were like alternates in case 1:05:42.920 --> 1:05:44.920 something got scheduled on one day that one of the 1:05:44.960 --> 1:05:47.360 core team couldn't be there, and we made sure that 1:05:47.360 --> 1:05:51.919 we would always schedule one person who was not negotiating 1:05:52.280 --> 1:05:54.160 to be at the meeting and take notes, so that 1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:56.160 like none of the people who were negotiating, you had. 1:05:56.040 --> 1:05:57.040 To do that at the same time. 1:05:57.400 --> 1:06:00.440 And when we first started negotiating, the management team was 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:04.400 sending Dan Meyer, the interim director, and name Kanno, who's 1:06:04.440 --> 1:06:09.280 our deputy director, who is basically the one person on 1:06:09.320 --> 1:06:12.600 the management team who is not she's not supposed to 1:06:12.640 --> 1:06:14.760 be a direct supervisor. She has not actually let go 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:17.280 of the people that she was supervising, but she's like 1:06:17.360 --> 1:06:20.840 in that middle space between like supervising management and like 1:06:20.960 --> 1:06:26.240 director management. But she has since stepped down from negotiations 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:28.440 because of the way that she's been involved in the 1:06:28.480 --> 1:06:31.680 rest of store operations. She was like, I can't come 1:06:31.720 --> 1:06:35.840 to the table anymore. And so the latest meeting that 1:06:35.880 --> 1:06:39.200 has been rescheduled is going to be with Kevin Bendle, 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:42.520 who's the new executive director, and then one other name 1:06:42.560 --> 1:06:46.360 that I forget who is either a board members as thinks, 1:06:46.480 --> 1:06:50.040 or I'm not sure well, she would be, but. 1:06:50.160 --> 1:06:51.840 It is it is a board member, and I think 1:06:51.840 --> 1:06:55.600 it is Tira Goldstein. Is her name Tia Goldstein? 1:06:56.200 --> 1:06:56.760 Yeah? 1:06:57.160 --> 1:06:57.440 Yeah. 1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:02.680 Every so often in niotiating sessions, Dan or Nai would 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:05.680 make some reference to like a financial decision that we 1:07:05.680 --> 1:07:09.200 were trying to bargain about being like not their choice 1:07:09.200 --> 1:07:10.880 and being something that would be up to the board, 1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:12.520 and we'd be like, so take it to the board, 1:07:13.000 --> 1:07:15.560 and then we'd be like, okay, and then we would 1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:16.760 never hear anything about it ever. 1:07:16.800 --> 1:07:22.040 Again, incredible, incredible work. Seems like a great tactic to 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:25.400 never address anything you're supposed to be addressing. 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:29.960 And so the way that we were negotiating, we were 1:07:30.000 --> 1:07:34.640 trying to come to terms on things that didn't affect 1:07:34.720 --> 1:07:37.360 the finances of the store first so that we could 1:07:37.760 --> 1:07:40.680 land some easy wins and like feel like we were 1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:43.440 making progress and then address the stuff that we expected 1:07:43.440 --> 1:07:46.919 to be thorny or later. But then what that ended 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:51.520 up being as meetings went on and on was them 1:07:51.760 --> 1:07:54.680 asking us constantly like, but what is it that you 1:07:54.680 --> 1:07:57.200 guys really are like prioritizing, Like what is the thing 1:07:57.240 --> 1:07:59.800 that matters the most to you that like you have 1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:02.240 the least give on and We're like, it's wages. You know, 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:04.880 it's wages. It's been wages this whole time. And they're like, 1:08:04.920 --> 1:08:07.680 but like, what if we were like asking you to 1:08:07.680 --> 1:08:09.959 give up all your benefits to get it's just. 1:08:09.840 --> 1:08:10.280 That you want. 1:08:10.360 --> 1:08:15.160 And we were like, Okay, that's not how negotiating works. 1:08:16.800 --> 1:08:20.360 And then, in an email that labeled it their best 1:08:20.600 --> 1:08:23.280 and final offer, which is language that they have yet 1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:26.880 to take back, they sent us a version of the 1:08:27.040 --> 1:08:30.400 contract bargaining agreement that we hey, let me just back 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:32.880 up for a second. When we first started negotiating, they 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:36.160 asked us to draft the entire first draft of the 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:40.719 collective bargaining agreement ourselves, what which is incredible well standard, 1:08:40.760 --> 1:08:43.760 And we were like, that's fine because that gives us 1:08:43.880 --> 1:08:46.479 a leg up in terms of like studying the initial terms. 1:08:46.880 --> 1:08:49.600 I guess we'll do it, but like, yeah, incredibly nonstandards, 1:08:49.640 --> 1:08:52.120 super stupid, not a thing that we should have had 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:52.280 to do. 1:08:52.800 --> 1:08:56.160 Yeah, I've never heard of that before. 1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:59.479 But so when we drafted it, we drafted a three 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:02.759 year term collective bargaining agreement with a bunch of stuff 1:09:02.800 --> 1:09:06.759 about procedure and wages and benefits that we wanted done, 1:09:07.080 --> 1:09:11.800 and so zooming back forward to that best and final offer. Suddenly, 1:09:12.439 --> 1:09:14.759 the draft that they've sent us back of the collective 1:09:14.760 --> 1:09:17.680 bargaining moreement is a two year term, and up to 1:09:17.720 --> 1:09:20.960 this point, all of the offers that had gotten anything 1:09:21.200 --> 1:09:24.040 close to our ask on wages were in year three, 1:09:24.439 --> 1:09:26.680 and everything in year one and two was still like 1:09:27.080 --> 1:09:33.519 twenty five cents fifty cents increases. And so suddenly year three, 1:09:33.680 --> 1:09:36.760 which was always the only year that made any improvements 1:09:36.760 --> 1:09:40.800 for us, is gone, and you did not improve any 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:43.080 other parts of the contract to make up for that 1:09:43.320 --> 1:09:44.439 unilateral decision. 1:09:45.200 --> 1:09:46.840 So that's just regressive bargaining. 1:09:47.240 --> 1:09:47.840 Yeah, it is. 1:09:48.320 --> 1:09:51.559 It is, which, by the way, okay, do you want 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:54.200 to explain to our dear listeners what regressive bargaining is 1:09:54.240 --> 1:09:55.960 and why you're not allowed to do it. 1:09:57.680 --> 1:10:02.960 Yeah, regressive bargaining is is a dirty negotiation tactic where 1:10:03.640 --> 1:10:07.880 one side, without making any sort of give and take 1:10:08.400 --> 1:10:12.240 concessions like they should to balance a big move, just 1:10:12.760 --> 1:10:16.719 unilaterally decides to change a term, especially a large term 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:22.599 like wages, contract term, et cetera. And so it is 1:10:23.200 --> 1:10:26.400 taking something that has been tentatively agreed upon and like 1:10:26.760 --> 1:10:29.400 in good faith taken as a part of the contract 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:31.640 that will stand and acting it. 1:10:32.720 --> 1:10:35.880 Yeah, and you are not allowed to do this is 1:10:35.920 --> 1:10:38.519 this is under the under the terms under the terms 1:10:38.520 --> 1:10:41.800 of the National Labor Relations Act, which you know, who knows. 1:10:41.960 --> 1:10:44.120 But by the time this episode goes out, there is 1:10:44.160 --> 1:10:46.600 a small chance it won't exist anymore. A bunch of 1:10:46.640 --> 1:10:49.120 provisions of it are under attacked right now. 1:10:49.800 --> 1:10:54.040 But like that is like, we have a few unfair 1:10:54.080 --> 1:10:59.519 labor practices filed with the NLRB since the terms of 1:10:59.600 --> 1:11:03.000 Negotia have been in effect, and they are not, in 1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:07.320 fact progressive bargaining charges, but issues of status quo where 1:11:07.439 --> 1:11:10.360 they're trying to change the way that they do scheduling, 1:11:10.439 --> 1:11:14.439 change the way that they do like absence discipline, which 1:11:14.439 --> 1:11:17.360 are topics that are covered in bargaining and should only 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:21.599 be changed in bargaining while bargaining is active, but they're 1:11:21.600 --> 1:11:24.519 trying to change them and then say that these have 1:11:24.560 --> 1:11:27.000 been the policies all along, and so. 1:11:27.760 --> 1:11:33.200 God literally gaslighting, yeah, like actual, actual, straight up. You 1:11:33.200 --> 1:11:36.120 could pick up the gap the psychologue the psychology textbook 1:11:36.520 --> 1:11:38.120 plight to it, like oh. 1:11:38.000 --> 1:11:39.920 Yeah, just pick up that whole lamp well, and we 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:43.160 have their words in writing of every step of the 1:11:43.160 --> 1:11:47.360 way where you can see the language change and be like, no, 1:11:48.120 --> 1:11:50.400 you are the person who said before that it was 1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:55.080 this other thing that was you. Yeah, so we filed 1:11:55.200 --> 1:11:58.800 unfair labor practice about those things, and you can in 1:11:58.880 --> 1:12:02.400 fact not track them anymore because since the government shut down, 1:12:02.479 --> 1:12:05.120 you can find a little PDF that explains, yep, that 1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:08.160 all ulps are going to be pending indefinitely, and that 1:12:08.280 --> 1:12:09.320 is all you can find. 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:13.360 Yeah, and it's also fun because Trump I legally fired 1:12:13.560 --> 1:12:15.000 one of the Democratic people on it, so I don't 1:12:15.000 --> 1:12:17.360 have a korum any on the board of the National RELATIONSIP. Boys, 1:12:17.360 --> 1:12:20.240 they don't have a korum anymore, which is a shit show. 1:12:21.000 --> 1:12:25.000 And snaking any NLRB like attempt to get anything done 1:12:25.000 --> 1:12:27.120 to the NLRB really annoying. 1:12:27.360 --> 1:12:27.719 Yeah. 1:12:27.960 --> 1:12:32.960 Yeah, I think the direct action has been helpful where 1:12:33.000 --> 1:12:36.639 like just that reality where just they just it would 1:12:36.720 --> 1:12:39.640 drive me crazy. And it is it is gaslighting. This 1:12:39.760 --> 1:12:41.760 is traumatizing. If her boyfriend does it to you, it's 1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:43.760 a red flag. But when your boss does it to you, 1:12:43.760 --> 1:12:48.240 you know, it's like, yeah, the public's fine with it. Business, Yeah, 1:12:48.240 --> 1:12:49.320 it's a cost of business. 1:12:49.920 --> 1:12:50.560 Yeah. 1:12:50.680 --> 1:12:54.320 It is just the continuous, non stop onslaught of regressive 1:12:54.360 --> 1:12:57.439 bargaining tactics that like from the minute we started, despite 1:12:57.520 --> 1:12:59.200 the fact that like I was sitting next to the 1:12:59.200 --> 1:13:02.120 director when we say reunionizing, it was like a split 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:05.000 second before she said, yep, we recognize it. And so 1:13:05.400 --> 1:13:08.839 our direct action at the workstoppage. I remember our first workstop, 1:13:08.880 --> 1:13:11.160 if you sat for half an hour, management was very 1:13:11.160 --> 1:13:13.240 cool with that. The second time we did it, we 1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:14.960 did it for an hour. We should have done our 1:13:14.960 --> 1:13:17.000 homework better because we didn't know that you can't, like 1:13:17.439 --> 1:13:20.200 like leaf live it on store property because the US 1:13:20.280 --> 1:13:23.439 Chicago is our landlord and kind of like not store property. 1:13:24.280 --> 1:13:27.040 But I put on my clerical collar. I put on 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:29.760 a T shirt that had like given to Caesar what 1:13:29.840 --> 1:13:32.720 is Caesar's and also like a little footnote about you know, 1:13:32.840 --> 1:13:35.719 run me my money. You know, there's a lot obvious 1:13:35.800 --> 1:13:38.120 instruction from Jesus out of Luke that's like pay the 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:41.040 work or their wages. But I was wearing my clerical car. 1:13:41.120 --> 1:13:44.080 I set up the PA and I and I was loud. 1:13:44.120 --> 1:13:46.720 There was a Hyde Park Harold reporter who you know 1:13:46.840 --> 1:13:50.120 took my comment who I remember him walking over to 1:13:50.200 --> 1:13:53.880 Nien and I think asking her for her comment. I 1:13:53.920 --> 1:13:57.800 had a bluetooth speaker that was Dan's right playing never 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:00.320 never fight a man with a perm by Idol and 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:03.559 I will not forget. I will not forget. The way 1:14:03.680 --> 1:14:06.000 our the deputy director approached me, she was like, Okay, 1:14:06.000 --> 1:14:07.479 this is fine, this is all fine. I just want 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:08.680 to let you know this is fine, but can you 1:14:08.680 --> 1:14:11.280 please turn the music off? And it took me about 1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:14.080 twenty minutes to just turn the buttons down slowly, But 1:14:15.200 --> 1:14:17.920 like that we were reprimanded. 1:14:18.040 --> 1:14:21.719 Yeah, we got a very very email the next day 1:14:22.000 --> 1:14:25.639 Elevet illustrating what the consequences would be if we tried 1:14:25.640 --> 1:14:29.720 to do a similar action again in that manner. 1:14:29.760 --> 1:14:31.880 And so we picketed outside their store. That was the 1:14:31.920 --> 1:14:34.080 next direct action that we did. But like I do 1:14:34.120 --> 1:14:38.360 think our most impactful direct actions have been the ones 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:41.720 that have been noisy, that have been incredibly visible. When 1:14:41.760 --> 1:14:44.720 we picketed last it was on the first day of classes. 1:14:44.920 --> 1:14:48.439 We sell like a lot of core core course books 1:14:48.439 --> 1:14:51.040 for the college at the university, and so there were 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:53.280 students like that. We we were like, hey, do you 1:14:53.320 --> 1:14:55.280 have the bookseller who sold you that book to have 1:14:55.360 --> 1:14:58.760 a living wage? And students like nineteen year old are 1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:01.040 so outraged by the end of money I make as 1:15:01.080 --> 1:15:01.880 a grown person. 1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:05.880 I heard so much eat the rich that day from sillennials. 1:15:06.040 --> 1:15:11.000 Hell yeah, hell yeah. But it's it is clear that 1:15:11.040 --> 1:15:13.920 when the public is made aware of what's happening at 1:15:13.920 --> 1:15:16.120 a store that a lot of people love just so much, 1:15:16.160 --> 1:15:17.680 like it is a part of the community, and I 1:15:17.720 --> 1:15:20.040 think so much a part of people's even like my 1:15:20.080 --> 1:15:22.840 own before I work there, our experience of being in 1:15:22.880 --> 1:15:29.720 this fight knit bizarre community, and folks are upset like 1:15:29.760 --> 1:15:33.040 they and I think rightfully so, and that's just I think, 1:15:33.040 --> 1:15:35.120 really the beauty of direct action is not just that 1:15:35.160 --> 1:15:37.280 it empowers u f but it really just like in 1:15:37.320 --> 1:15:40.120 a sort of spectacle way, says this is what this 1:15:40.200 --> 1:15:42.240 is what they're doing. You want a place that you 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:45.200 love to run this way and to treat people like this. 1:15:45.920 --> 1:15:49.040 So and I think they're really effective for that reason, 1:15:49.240 --> 1:15:54.439 especially because people are really like on our side when 1:15:54.439 --> 1:15:57.439 they talk to us, but they're also really surprised because 1:15:58.000 --> 1:16:01.280 like part of the instant recognition thing, part of the 1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:04.679 being cool with us having union buttons on the register. 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:07.400 Part of all of that is the fact that management 1:16:07.439 --> 1:16:10.759 is benefiting from the illusion that they're on good. 1:16:10.640 --> 1:16:11.360 Terms with us. 1:16:11.400 --> 1:16:13.040 And so like one of the reasons that we held 1:16:13.040 --> 1:16:16.400 that picket was to be like, hey, just because they 1:16:16.560 --> 1:16:19.280 are not stopping us does not mean they have done 1:16:19.320 --> 1:16:21.920 anything to improve the material conditions that we have been 1:16:22.000 --> 1:16:23.280 organizing around this whole time. 1:16:23.680 --> 1:16:24.000 Yeah. 1:16:24.040 --> 1:16:27.840 Well, and also to be incredibly clear about this, like 1:16:28.760 --> 1:16:32.720 it's so obvious it has to actually directly be stated, 1:16:32.800 --> 1:16:34.840 which is that all of the things they are doing 1:16:34.880 --> 1:16:39.080 our union busting tactics, because their strategy here is to 1:16:39.120 --> 1:16:41.799 do a recognition and then go for the second place 1:16:41.960 --> 1:16:45.719 where unions was commonly collapse, which is once you're recognized 1:16:45.720 --> 1:16:48.519 as as a bargaining the second place they fail is 1:16:48.560 --> 1:16:51.000 getting the first contract, and that that's what they're really 1:16:51.040 --> 1:16:54.599 obviously trying to do. And yeah, the fact that people 1:16:54.600 --> 1:16:57.640 don't understand that they're just running a thing that like 1:16:58.479 --> 1:17:00.680 I'm trying to think of how to even disc it 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:03.880 was like like that bookstore was like like it was 1:17:04.040 --> 1:17:07.000 treated as like something that was as an institution that 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:09.679 was like part of the university. That's like the way 1:17:09.720 --> 1:17:12.519 it was like treated culturally was this is like our thing, 1:17:12.800 --> 1:17:15.200 and these people are running it into the ground because 1:17:15.240 --> 1:17:18.200 they don't want to pay their workers like enough money. 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:20.439 To survive. It's is just hideous. 1:17:20.680 --> 1:17:23.559 And that's really all it comes down too when you 1:17:23.560 --> 1:17:26.880 look at what the facts on the ground are is 1:17:27.400 --> 1:17:30.640 the decisions that they are making are directly tied to 1:17:30.680 --> 1:17:32.320 the fact that they feel like they have no money, 1:17:32.360 --> 1:17:34.479 which is directly to the fact that they are paying 1:17:34.520 --> 1:17:37.080 the executive director too much, which is directly died to 1:17:37.120 --> 1:17:39.840 the fact that they want to have an excuse to 1:17:40.080 --> 1:17:41.080 not pay us anything. 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:42.160 Yeah. 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:44.280 Yeah, it's like, oh, wow, we don't have enough money 1:17:44.320 --> 1:17:47.080 because we're spending like one hundred and sixty thousand dollars 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:50.519 on an executive director. Have you considered you can simply 1:17:50.600 --> 1:17:54.080 eliminate this entire expense by turning this into an actual 1:17:54.160 --> 1:17:56.719 co op. You could do it in like one day, 1:17:56.840 --> 1:18:00.559 and you suddenly would not have the administration expenses because 1:18:01.040 --> 1:18:04.400 those people wouldn't be there. You could do this yeah, 1:18:04.479 --> 1:18:05.160 really easily. 1:18:05.600 --> 1:18:09.360 Oh well, And as the like movement in and out 1:18:09.360 --> 1:18:12.559 of that position over the past year demonstrates, it has 1:18:12.640 --> 1:18:16.400 no effect on the operations of bookstore. The thing that 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:18.760 has any effect on the operations of the bookstore is 1:18:18.800 --> 1:18:22.200 the fact that seven people have left, not been replaced, 1:18:22.200 --> 1:18:25.120 and all of their work has been redistributed across like 1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:28.800 increasingly siloed positions to the people who are left so 1:18:28.840 --> 1:18:31.880 that you have no help on your particular assigned task 1:18:32.240 --> 1:18:34.960 that is now yours and yours alone, and you just 1:18:35.040 --> 1:18:38.000 feel terrible in your little hole by yourself. 1:18:38.720 --> 1:18:41.599 Which there's is something like I know for a fact 1:18:41.920 --> 1:18:44.439 that like multiple people on that board know what a 1:18:44.560 --> 1:18:48.320 speed up is, Like, that's a speed up. I know 1:18:48.520 --> 1:18:51.000 for a fact that you know what this. 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:53.559 Is, and most of them who know what it is 1:18:53.680 --> 1:18:56.320 have written against them. 1:18:57.280 --> 1:19:00.280 Yeah, just kind of like expanding a bit, like or 1:19:00.439 --> 1:19:03.639 the staff at the Museum of Science and Industry has 1:19:03.680 --> 1:19:06.760 also unionized, and they were outside of their store, you know, 1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:10.040 threatening to strike and so like I loved on the 1:19:10.080 --> 1:19:12.639 picket line, like I had a sign that said fire Jenny, 1:19:12.880 --> 1:19:15.160 and I went to explain to the Yeah, I want 1:19:15.200 --> 1:19:18.519 to explain to the UI employee who Jenny was. The 1:19:18.640 --> 1:19:21.040 UI employee who worked at the Graduate Students United at 1:19:21.080 --> 1:19:23.920 U Chicago, and she went, oh, I know who Jenny is, 1:19:24.760 --> 1:19:28.960 and that's I don't know. Just yeah, it's sick that 1:19:29.120 --> 1:19:32.799 like somebody can make their living making my life worse 1:19:33.040 --> 1:19:36.760 than a that's that's capitalism. And also be like I 1:19:36.880 --> 1:19:39.479 she has been involved that lawyer and like a number 1:19:39.520 --> 1:19:41.760 of like she busting you, trying to bust unions at 1:19:41.800 --> 1:19:47.320 U Chicago on successfully and also representing Northwestern in a 1:19:47.360 --> 1:19:49.919 case where one of their employees accused them of sexual 1:19:50.160 --> 1:19:53.880 harassment and discrimination. You know. So it's like you're you're 1:19:53.920 --> 1:19:57.080 really this this is this is the person that you're 1:19:57.120 --> 1:20:00.360 working with. This is the tool that you're using, you know, 1:20:00.840 --> 1:20:03.559 is it who you would rather pay? Yeah? 1:20:03.680 --> 1:20:06.120 Yeah, yeah. And it's also it's like that that's the 1:20:06.160 --> 1:20:08.599 thing where this this whole metaphor of like the boss 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:11.599 acting as an abusive partner is suddenly getting very literal 1:20:11.840 --> 1:20:13.960 in terms of who they're who are the people that 1:20:14.000 --> 1:20:17.800 they are employing do for their other ship, which is 1:20:18.080 --> 1:20:23.360 defending those people. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's almost like 1:20:23.360 --> 1:20:26.280 there's a structural connection between management and patriarchy. Wow, who 1:20:26.320 --> 1:20:28.760 could possibly who could possibly have done this? 1:20:28.880 --> 1:20:30.400 Between systems of abuse? 1:20:31.200 --> 1:20:35.120 Yeah, Like who could possibly have written about this? Check's notes? 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:37.839 Looks at the books that were written by the members 1:20:38.040 --> 1:20:42.120 of the board. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm so mad about this, 1:20:42.360 --> 1:20:45.040 Like we'll nicking after Empire is really good? 1:20:46.400 --> 1:20:49.000 It is? Yeah, And I like I don't know how 1:20:49.080 --> 1:20:52.520 much I can like hold those individual board members responsible, 1:20:52.560 --> 1:20:54.240 and it seems like so many of them are like 1:20:54.520 --> 1:20:57.439 just now finding out about it. Yeah, that's some abuse. 1:20:57.479 --> 1:20:59.360 One on one is to make sure that the person 1:20:59.760 --> 1:21:03.160 that you are exploiting, that you were, you know, taking 1:21:03.200 --> 1:21:05.920 advantage of that, they don't feel like they can say 1:21:05.960 --> 1:21:08.200 to people who could help them, this is what's happening 1:21:08.240 --> 1:21:11.040 to me, and that like the people who would be sympathetic, 1:21:11.080 --> 1:21:14.880 could you know, go and take the initiative to help folks. 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:19.000 And ungrateful that we have a meeting with Robert Peters 1:21:19.200 --> 1:21:22.040 coming up soon. It was supposed to happen that has 1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:25.920 not yet, and I appreciate how dedicated he is and 1:21:25.960 --> 1:21:28.160 his staff is to making sure that our union sits 1:21:28.200 --> 1:21:29.160 down and talks with him. 1:21:29.560 --> 1:21:32.040 But it is also like there's a deep irony for 1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:35.400 him accepting an award from another union and rescheduling a 1:21:35.400 --> 1:21:35.840 meeting with. 1:21:35.840 --> 1:21:36.560 Ourskay do it? 1:21:36.640 --> 1:21:38.960 No, no, no, no, no, it's because we have Jacob, I 1:21:39.000 --> 1:21:44.200 always say it incorrectly asked me. Yeah, the BigInt. But 1:21:44.240 --> 1:21:46.920 that's also like part of the other great community support. 1:21:46.960 --> 1:21:49.439 Like I mentioned that UE employee, but you know, there 1:21:49.439 --> 1:21:52.360 are other union employees who just because they love the 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:55.840 bookstore so much, will show up to every outreach event 1:21:55.840 --> 1:21:57.840 that we have. He was one of the first people 1:21:57.880 --> 1:21:59.680 to have a yard sign, and it's funny he was 1:21:59.720 --> 1:22:02.320 right now to this guy from my church who also 1:22:02.360 --> 1:22:03.920 has a been no sign, and that's why I found 1:22:03.920 --> 1:22:07.040 out they were neighbors. Yeah, it's really cute. But like, 1:22:07.880 --> 1:22:12.000 I'm proud that we're Wobbley's because there is a really 1:22:12.040 --> 1:22:14.519 long tradition of you know, being in Chicago, a lot 1:22:14.600 --> 1:22:18.040 of radical organizing that I think fits our spirit and 1:22:18.040 --> 1:22:20.280 also like the seminary co op spirit. It has been 1:22:20.280 --> 1:22:22.919 hard that we don't have a lot of resources towards bargaining, 1:22:23.400 --> 1:22:25.799 but like we're good at direct action and we also 1:22:25.840 --> 1:22:28.479 have I'll give it the ask Me Award. I'll give 1:22:28.520 --> 1:22:31.320 it a pass because Jacob's been so and other community 1:22:31.320 --> 1:22:33.920 members have been so helpful and just giving their time 1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:36.080 and their skills and their expertise. 1:22:36.160 --> 1:22:39.719 So yeah, yeah, the MSI Union, the grad Students' Union 1:22:39.760 --> 1:22:43.240 in particular, have been incredible allies to us and have 1:22:43.439 --> 1:22:47.200 been they were huge like presences on our picket because like, 1:22:47.520 --> 1:22:51.559 because we did an open store running picket, we had 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:54.599 only about half of our actual union members available because 1:22:54.600 --> 1:22:56.400 everyone else had to be on desks in the stores 1:22:56.920 --> 1:22:59.720 keeping them running. And so the majority of the people 1:22:59.760 --> 1:23:02.599 who were like collecting signatures to get Jenny Goltz fired 1:23:02.640 --> 1:23:05.720 and otherwise improve our wardening conditions were people from other 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:09.679 unions who were just out there being wonderful, awesome, solid 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:10.479 argy with us. 1:23:10.840 --> 1:23:11.400 Yeah. 1:23:11.479 --> 1:23:13.519 So my first picket line, I mean, I think it 1:23:13.520 --> 1:23:16.479 makes its last episode, but my first picket line ever 1:23:16.880 --> 1:23:19.360 was the grad student picket line in twenty nineteen. Those 1:23:19.400 --> 1:23:20.880 those the first time I was ever want a picket 1:23:20.920 --> 1:23:24.439 and it rocks. Yeah, and yeah, it makes it really 1:23:24.479 --> 1:23:27.200 happy to see that the whole base of sort of 1:23:27.320 --> 1:23:31.439 union organizing from that has like you know, it's it's 1:23:31.479 --> 1:23:33.439 this thing that like I remember when this was like 1:23:33.800 --> 1:23:35.080 you know, like I was there and like one of 1:23:35.120 --> 1:23:37.240 the big pushes everyone. They finally won, and it's like 1:23:37.560 --> 1:23:41.160 they're still around helping people because workers workers fucking fight 1:23:41.240 --> 1:23:42.120 together and. 1:23:42.400 --> 1:23:44.439 Well and then they'll always be like, hey, one thing 1:23:44.479 --> 1:23:47.639 that we know about Jenny GOLs is she likes to lose, and. 1:23:47.600 --> 1:23:51.519 We're like, thank thank you. Then it's not that she 1:23:51.760 --> 1:23:54.080 likes to use the quote, is she's very good at 1:23:54.160 --> 1:24:00.640 losing which that's true. Even better. Yeah, like what you 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:03.160 were saying about GSU, I don't remember what I think, 1:24:03.200 --> 1:24:05.800 Like two thousand and eight. Two thousand and seven was 1:24:05.840 --> 1:24:09.000 like when they said we starting organizing for unionizing the 1:24:09.040 --> 1:24:11.760 graduate students. I had a roommate who was like a 1:24:11.800 --> 1:24:15.360 twelve year PhD student who was around when that shit started. 1:24:17.000 --> 1:24:18.800 You can just count hanging out with your wife in 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:22.000 Australia as a field research, I guess. 1:24:23.040 --> 1:24:23.200 But. 1:24:25.080 --> 1:24:27.400 Well, she's just doing postdocs. You're just hanging out. But 1:24:28.840 --> 1:24:32.720 we had a baby yesterday anyway. Oh but yeah, like 1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:35.559 I was around he came back to finish his PhD 1:24:36.560 --> 1:24:39.280 like about the time, like when the contract was ratified, 1:24:39.320 --> 1:24:43.200 and I just with what is it, sixteen seventeen months 1:24:43.200 --> 1:24:46.240 of bargaining no contract in the name of my blessed 1:24:46.280 --> 1:24:50.360 Lord Jesus Christ. Like Jesus Christ. GSU has had, like 1:24:50.400 --> 1:24:52.800 has such a wealth of knowledge because they've been through 1:24:53.200 --> 1:24:56.479 just like heaps of bullshit and it's years. 1:24:56.760 --> 1:25:00.439 It's like, okay, I will like you the the fucking 1:25:00.479 --> 1:25:02.840 gs you think they had a whole thing when I 1:25:02.920 --> 1:25:04.600 was there, like in like twenty nineteen, the whole the 1:25:04.640 --> 1:25:07.360 whole thing was that and like Jenuay. This is like 1:25:07.439 --> 1:25:09.240 one of the most admirable things I've ever seen a 1:25:09.320 --> 1:25:14.160 union do, which was they refused to take their their 1:25:14.280 --> 1:25:17.599 case because the university was refusing to recognize them, and 1:25:17.640 --> 1:25:20.639 they they refused to take their case to the NLRB 1:25:20.760 --> 1:25:22.280 because they knew that if they did it, there was 1:25:22.400 --> 1:25:24.160 there was a pretty good chance that the old Trump 1:25:24.240 --> 1:25:26.639 n l RB was going to like bust every single 1:25:26.640 --> 1:25:29.759 graduate school union in the country. So instead of trying 1:25:29.800 --> 1:25:32.519 to win for themselves, they fucking didn't do it and 1:25:32.720 --> 1:25:36.320 just like fought on picket lines instead, and it fucking rocked. 1:25:36.760 --> 1:25:41.400 It was case like that they rock. They're they're great, 1:25:41.680 --> 1:25:44.679 Like yeah, yeah, shout out, shout outs shout out to GSU. 1:25:44.960 --> 1:25:46.280 Yeah, shout out to GSU. 1:25:46.520 --> 1:25:50.600 Well, And they are a great, great, great example to 1:25:50.680 --> 1:25:55.640 us all in terms of like how to persist on 1:25:55.680 --> 1:25:58.639 a fight through attrition, because one of the things that 1:25:58.720 --> 1:26:02.640 like you try so hard as a management team to 1:26:02.680 --> 1:26:04.759 do is just wait until ever and gets tired and leaves. 1:26:04.840 --> 1:26:07.000 And like it seems like Grand Students would be the 1:26:07.040 --> 1:26:10.280 perfect population just just wait out because they rotate out constantly. 1:26:10.680 --> 1:26:14.720 But like just the way that they have managed to 1:26:14.800 --> 1:26:18.639 maintain energy through generations and generations of organizers and get 1:26:18.680 --> 1:26:22.280 it over the line at long Lives is so encouraging. 1:26:23.720 --> 1:26:37.080 Yeah, there's the thing I remember from I think the 1:26:37.160 --> 1:26:39.720 last place I read into it was like one of 1:26:39.800 --> 1:26:41.559 Mike Duncan's things about the French Revolution. 1:26:41.920 --> 1:26:43.519 But like one of the things he talked about was 1:26:43.560 --> 1:26:47.280 like the ways in which part of what caused the 1:26:47.280 --> 1:26:49.439 French Revolution was that like they spent a whole bunch 1:26:49.479 --> 1:26:52.760 of time teaching all of these kids these like incredibly 1:26:52.840 --> 1:26:55.200 radical enlightenment ideas and then they were like, wait, we 1:26:55.240 --> 1:26:57.479 live in like the most absolute water key that has 1:26:57.520 --> 1:26:59.280 ever existed. What the fuck? 1:27:00.000 --> 1:27:00.479 I hate this? 1:27:01.280 --> 1:27:01.519 Yeah? 1:27:02.080 --> 1:27:05.000 Yeah, yeah, Like wait, hold on, And it's like there 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:09.639 is obviously always sort of contradictions between like the number 1:27:09.640 --> 1:27:12.639 of people I have seen write books about labor resistance 1:27:12.680 --> 1:27:15.880 and then like go bust unions is pretty large. But 1:27:16.240 --> 1:27:22.200 there's a reason why everyone from like Pinochet through like 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:25.719 the Trump administration, I mean back through like the original Nazis. 1:27:25.720 --> 1:27:28.360 It's like one of the first places and you know, 1:27:28.360 --> 1:27:29.880 I mean like the Greek riot plays had this thing 1:27:29.880 --> 1:27:31.800 where it was like the first place you go when 1:27:31.800 --> 1:27:35.320 there's discontent is like you must stop the workers from 1:27:35.320 --> 1:27:37.960 from allying with the students. You must do. 1:27:38.000 --> 1:27:39.639 This or you're fucked. 1:27:41.360 --> 1:27:44.240 Yeah, But the workers and the students love each other. 1:27:44.520 --> 1:27:47.760 They're all kissing. Yeah, And we're the. 1:27:47.840 --> 1:27:52.120 Same person sometimes, you know. Yeah, so often. 1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:53.519 Yep, yep, yep. 1:27:54.200 --> 1:27:58.040 All my comrades a kiss on the forehead, y ah. 1:27:58.120 --> 1:27:58.320 Yeah. 1:27:58.360 --> 1:27:59.600 And I think like that is I think like the 1:28:00.120 --> 1:28:02.760 filment of all of this is like the way that 1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:07.360 one campaign winning can transform the lives of everyone else 1:28:07.400 --> 1:28:11.840 around you is so astonishing. And I've seen it happen 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:15.000 in so many places where like one shop wins and 1:28:15.000 --> 1:28:18.120 suddenly everyone else is like, it could be us, It 1:28:18.160 --> 1:28:19.040 could be us. 1:28:19.360 --> 1:28:22.440 Yes, it's possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:28:22.479 --> 1:28:25.080 Well, and I think that we're trying to capitalize on 1:28:25.160 --> 1:28:27.040 that and trying to make sure that we can be 1:28:27.080 --> 1:28:31.040 the next person to like capitalize on GSU's win and 1:28:31.439 --> 1:28:35.200 help ms I do the same. But like, as much 1:28:35.240 --> 1:28:40.920 as we have really suffered from the at the table 1:28:41.080 --> 1:28:45.160 bargaining uhiating process and been really sort of beaten down 1:28:45.560 --> 1:28:48.080 in the past year on that battleground, I think we 1:28:48.240 --> 1:28:53.160 have learned so much about the allies that surround us 1:28:53.320 --> 1:28:57.080 and the people who like want to do more than 1:28:57.200 --> 1:28:59.559 just email our board members, and we're like, we don't 1:28:59.600 --> 1:29:01.680 know what else you can do because we don't know 1:29:01.680 --> 1:29:05.400 who makes these decisions for you to yell at. But 1:29:06.240 --> 1:29:08.280 we have so many people who have like signed up 1:29:08.280 --> 1:29:10.000 for an email list with us, so many people who 1:29:10.000 --> 1:29:12.360 are like ready to go as soon as we figure 1:29:12.360 --> 1:29:13.439 out what we need them to do. 1:29:13.960 --> 1:29:15.120 Yeah, and that's. 1:29:14.840 --> 1:29:19.000 Been really encouraging and bolstering, while management continues to like 1:29:19.600 --> 1:29:22.519 just not acknowledge us when they feel too cornered. Like 1:29:22.560 --> 1:29:25.920 they simply never spoke of the picket because it happened 1:29:25.920 --> 1:29:27.920 outside and so they couldn't be mad about it, so 1:29:27.960 --> 1:29:29.760 they didn't have to tell us all about it, but 1:29:29.760 --> 1:29:32.519 they also just didn't speak of it. 1:29:34.920 --> 1:29:40.400 Yeah, this is Chicago is a motherfucking union town, and 1:29:40.439 --> 1:29:44.200 that's what. Yeah, I'll admit I'm angry when I go 1:29:44.280 --> 1:29:46.800 into work. They don't care enough to get the mold 1:29:46.800 --> 1:29:49.280 and the dust remediated, you know, and the DUTs, and 1:29:50.520 --> 1:29:52.880 I can't really breathe when I go into work. And 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:56.639 I also don't have health insurance right, oh my god, Well, 1:29:56.680 --> 1:29:58.439 I do have health insurance, but I have to pay 1:29:58.439 --> 1:30:00.080 for like, you know, I have to pay for my 1:30:00.080 --> 1:30:03.320 own premiums through a marketplace there. Yeah, and that's that's 1:30:03.400 --> 1:30:08.320 not really affordable. And like, as frustrated as I am 1:30:08.439 --> 1:30:11.640 like coming into work, it is it's the people you know, 1:30:11.680 --> 1:30:13.320 And I think that's for a lot of folks who 1:30:13.360 --> 1:30:15.599 have stayed at the bookstore. I don't know how much 1:30:15.640 --> 1:30:18.320 you relate to this then, like it has been like 1:30:18.439 --> 1:30:21.240 other booksellers, the folks that we've gotten to know through 1:30:21.320 --> 1:30:24.080 the community, who like who do make a difference at 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:28.280 least for me and whether or not I stay. Oh, absolutely, yeah, 1:30:28.320 --> 1:30:29.200 this is a good fight. 1:30:29.880 --> 1:30:35.200 The union crew that we have is a incredibly worthwhile 1:30:35.240 --> 1:30:37.160 team to be on. It is a group of people 1:30:37.160 --> 1:30:40.240 that I feel very solid standing shoulder to shoulder with. 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:44.000 I think that is, like, without question, one of the 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:46.920 things that like keeps the stores a place that you 1:30:47.120 --> 1:30:49.160 can work, even if it's not a good. 1:30:48.960 --> 1:30:50.120 Place to work right now. 1:30:50.479 --> 1:30:53.880 Yeah, yeah, And honestly, I think that would have sustained 1:30:53.920 --> 1:30:56.080 me a lot longer if you were different, you know. 1:30:57.360 --> 1:30:58.639 Yeah, yeah for sure. 1:30:58.760 --> 1:31:01.960 Wait, okay, sorry, could ripole back to the part where 1:31:02.080 --> 1:31:04.559 you can't breathe because there's I feel like because there's 1:31:04.600 --> 1:31:07.519 bolds I feel like you just dropped that very quickly. 1:31:07.560 --> 1:31:09.439 It was like, oh, yeah, that's like a normal bar 1:31:09.479 --> 1:31:09.840 of the work. 1:31:10.240 --> 1:31:11.240 What the thought. 1:31:12.040 --> 1:31:15.000 Well, so for a very long time you've been allowed 1:31:15.120 --> 1:31:17.720 to request that you only work at the co op 1:31:17.800 --> 1:31:20.439 because there is a known mode problem at fifty seventh 1:31:20.439 --> 1:31:23.479 Street that they can't afford to or can't get the 1:31:23.560 --> 1:31:28.160 landlord to ameliorate. But there is also at least in 1:31:28.240 --> 1:31:33.600 our lung experience some sort of growth issue in the 1:31:33.680 --> 1:31:34.719 venting at the seminary. 1:31:34.800 --> 1:31:38.880 Come up, Yeah, it's it's very dusty at beast. And 1:31:38.920 --> 1:31:41.840 like I when I wear like like a kN ninety 1:31:41.840 --> 1:31:44.800 five for a little bit, like that helps a little. 1:31:44.960 --> 1:31:47.280 I take like five bena drill usually and then that 1:31:47.760 --> 1:31:50.479 je's that kind of that kind of helps. And that's 1:31:50.520 --> 1:31:52.880 more just I think, like I mean not more. That 1:31:53.000 --> 1:31:55.400 is in part like my own health. But if I 1:31:55.439 --> 1:31:58.479 had the resources too be able to take care of 1:31:58.520 --> 1:32:00.760 my health and get what I need, maybe I could 1:32:00.880 --> 1:32:03.360 withstand the mold and the dust and the ducks a 1:32:03.400 --> 1:32:04.160 little bit easier. 1:32:04.200 --> 1:32:06.639 But like that well, but also like like as an employer, 1:32:06.720 --> 1:32:09.240 it is your responsibility to not have your workplace poison 1:32:09.320 --> 1:32:13.280 your employees, Like I'm sorry, like that part yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:32:13.439 --> 1:32:16.120 that also make them pay for the medical care to 1:32:16.520 --> 1:32:19.360 treat medical problems that they're having because you'd poison them 1:32:19.400 --> 1:32:19.920 with mold. 1:32:20.280 --> 1:32:26.120 Like what that's yeah, what Jesus Christ, it's so evil. 1:32:26.920 --> 1:32:29.880 Well, and we had a couple of pauses in our 1:32:30.360 --> 1:32:35.040 first draft of the Collective Bardnaining Agreement that included demands 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:37.880 regarding mold remediation at fifty seventh Street, and I do 1:32:37.960 --> 1:32:42.360 believe th clauses have been struck in subsequent round. 1:32:44.160 --> 1:32:46.800 Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a thing that you 1:32:46.800 --> 1:32:48.960 could ask people to do, which is go ask people 1:32:49.000 --> 1:32:53.120 to complain about the fucking mold. Like it seems like 1:32:53.160 --> 1:32:54.200 a thing you could do. 1:32:54.720 --> 1:32:59.360 Yeah, that's another direct action. I also noticed, like people 1:32:59.360 --> 1:33:01.960 in the store, like they cough when they enter. Yeah, 1:33:02.000 --> 1:33:04.439 you know, and like, oh god, this is where the 1:33:04.720 --> 1:33:07.280 like the snake eats its own tail. The wheel turns 1:33:07.280 --> 1:33:10.400 inside the fucking wheel, right, because like maybe, like if 1:33:10.439 --> 1:33:13.040 I'm giving them good faith benefit of the doubt, management 1:33:13.080 --> 1:33:16.200 would have if they weren't overloaded with so many tasks 1:33:16.240 --> 1:33:17.960 that they have to take on, you know, sort of 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:22.240 more supervisory management. If y'all didn't have to do all 1:33:22.280 --> 1:33:25.600 these tasks, maybe you would have time to If there 1:33:25.600 --> 1:33:28.360 are more people hired in the bargaining unit, perhaps you 1:33:28.400 --> 1:33:31.760 could yourself have more time to improve the conditions for 1:33:31.800 --> 1:33:33.800 the store, not just for your workers, but also for 1:33:33.840 --> 1:33:35.839 the people who enter the stores. 1:33:35.920 --> 1:33:36.919 But because people. 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:39.640 Hire new workers until there's a contract, you are just 1:33:39.680 --> 1:33:41.840 so overworked and you can't and it's just like this 1:33:41.840 --> 1:33:45.040 this turns until the boss decides that it doesn't, and 1:33:45.080 --> 1:33:48.160 it's like this is their responsibility to to bargain in 1:33:48.240 --> 1:33:51.160 good faith and to treat their workers correctly, Like this 1:33:51.240 --> 1:33:54.040 is an active decision that they could make that they 1:33:54.040 --> 1:33:54.719 are not making. 1:33:55.120 --> 1:33:58.360 So yeah, I gotts say that that might be the 1:33:58.439 --> 1:34:01.040 single wildest thing I've ever heard, like an hour into 1:34:01.120 --> 1:34:04.200 an interview, is oh, yeah, they're poisoning. 1:34:03.720 --> 1:34:08.800 Guys in the mold, just the mold. It's just also 1:34:09.040 --> 1:34:11.360 just like prove that this is the craziest place to work, 1:34:11.439 --> 1:34:13.960 because like that doesn't even land on our radar anymore 1:34:14.000 --> 1:34:17.000 because we've been just like banging our head against walls 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:17.559 for a year. 1:34:18.280 --> 1:34:23.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I keep going back to 1:34:23.640 --> 1:34:25.880 the abusive relationship metaphor, but like that is one of 1:34:25.880 --> 1:34:28.200 the big things about the beusive relationships is that because 1:34:28.200 --> 1:34:30.000 of the information control and because of the way that 1:34:30.040 --> 1:34:33.280 your world gets condensed down into a really really tiny, 1:34:33.360 --> 1:34:36.240 narrow set of experiences where you're isolated and you're only 1:34:36.280 --> 1:34:40.880 interacting with like one person who was controlling everything about 1:34:40.920 --> 1:34:44.559 your life. It becomes really difficult to see things that 1:34:44.600 --> 1:34:47.280 are very, very obviously wrong the moment you step out 1:34:47.280 --> 1:34:50.240 of it. Yeah, and you know, I don't know. Maybe 1:34:50.240 --> 1:34:53.240 it turns out having absolutely hierarchical relationships of control is 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:57.519 an extremely bad way to run literally anything, especially the 1:34:57.560 --> 1:34:59.840 thing that your livelihood depends on, that you do most 1:34:59.840 --> 1:35:00.479 of your time. 1:35:00.680 --> 1:35:04.240 Just to thought, wow, well, and it also just like 1:35:04.400 --> 1:35:08.880 means that you are too busy to actually interface in 1:35:08.960 --> 1:35:11.680 any meaningful way with your workers. Like, yeah, if I 1:35:11.760 --> 1:35:14.320 tell you that it took me two thirds of the 1:35:14.400 --> 1:35:18.720 day to schedule a fifteen minute conversation with any of 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:22.679 four managers who were on site to quit, I would 1:35:22.680 --> 1:35:23.400 not be lying. 1:35:23.880 --> 1:35:27.639 Jesus Christ. They can't even take your resign, bitch. 1:35:30.960 --> 1:35:33.680 They at one point tried to reschedule that conversation which 1:35:33.720 --> 1:35:35.960 I was attempting to have on Friday to Monday, and 1:35:36.000 --> 1:35:37.320 I was like, I think you want. 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:41.880 To know this. Yeah, it's like managers, you two are 1:35:41.880 --> 1:35:43.480 getting you too, are getting. 1:35:43.240 --> 1:35:46.280 Strewed over by by understaffing. 1:35:46.720 --> 1:35:50.559 Oh my god, I do think that's starting to take 1:35:50.560 --> 1:35:53.920 a toll to on management, which is a little encouraging. 1:35:54.120 --> 1:35:59.080 They're losing it. Yeah, they are not feeling well, and 1:35:59.120 --> 1:36:01.800 because like for me, I don't know, I'm not gonna 1:36:01.800 --> 1:36:04.719 trust a boss like I just stated, for three months 1:36:04.720 --> 1:36:08.120 in the nineteen ninety seven UAW strike like that's oh yeah, 1:36:08.120 --> 1:36:12.120 bosses are canceled. Yeah you know, I know how that ended. 1:36:12.520 --> 1:36:16.080 But I remember one of the supervisors who who we've 1:36:16.080 --> 1:36:18.760 had one point in her like her previous career had 1:36:18.760 --> 1:36:20.800 been on a picket line for a very long time, 1:36:21.320 --> 1:36:24.760 had been on strike, and she like immediately took one 1:36:24.800 --> 1:36:27.960 of our little sabocat reed pins put it on her backpack, 1:36:28.040 --> 1:36:30.400 and is otherwise like, as far as I can tell, 1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:34.240 generally supportive of the union, but also man lady, I 1:36:34.240 --> 1:36:36.479 wish she would make a stink mm hmm. 1:36:36.600 --> 1:36:39.200 Because here's the thing. I think she only talks to us. 1:36:39.320 --> 1:36:41.800 I feel like the other managers do not speak to her. 1:36:42.640 --> 1:36:44.160 I yeah, am I crazy. 1:36:44.240 --> 1:36:47.360 Yeah I could just talk about that for a very 1:36:47.400 --> 1:36:49.800 long time, and I don't think we have the time. 1:36:50.000 --> 1:36:53.120 So yeah, yeah, before we get into what can people 1:36:53.160 --> 1:36:54.599 do the help? Is there anything else that you want 1:36:54.640 --> 1:36:56.240 to make sure that you get to. 1:36:56.920 --> 1:36:59.760 I think the big thing that we should emphasize too 1:37:00.120 --> 1:37:03.200 is as much as we are complaining and frustrated about 1:37:03.200 --> 1:37:07.960 the process, we know that this is not impass and 1:37:07.960 --> 1:37:11.439 that we are so sure that like there is still 1:37:11.479 --> 1:37:14.120 negotiating to be done, there is still conversation to be had, 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:16.320 and that like we have been emphasizing that at every 1:37:16.320 --> 1:37:20.559 opportunity to management as we have to. But like, just 1:37:20.600 --> 1:37:24.479 because we are tired and frustrated means nothing in terms 1:37:24.479 --> 1:37:26.240 of us giving up, because this is a fight that 1:37:26.280 --> 1:37:27.120 is going to continue. 1:37:27.880 --> 1:37:31.960 Yeah, yeah, And like to that point, Finn, we're doing 1:37:31.960 --> 1:37:35.720 this because we love the stores. Like the stores were 1:37:35.760 --> 1:37:39.000 a really important place for me, just putting down roots 1:37:39.040 --> 1:37:42.320 in the neighborhood. And I think when you love something 1:37:42.360 --> 1:37:44.680 a lot, like you got to be brave enough to 1:37:44.680 --> 1:37:48.200 wrestle with it. And that our unionizing is the right thing. 1:37:48.840 --> 1:37:51.240 It is the thing that will like hopefully create an 1:37:51.280 --> 1:37:55.280 environment where the people who make that bookstore run, who 1:37:55.360 --> 1:37:58.200 sell the books. In the long run, it will make 1:37:58.479 --> 1:38:01.599 the institution healthier, do believe, and just that we've been 1:38:01.640 --> 1:38:04.960 talking about like this metaphor as the boss of like 1:38:05.160 --> 1:38:08.799 as an abusive partner. I think for so many folks 1:38:08.800 --> 1:38:12.040 when they are whether it's something like domestic violence, or 1:38:12.080 --> 1:38:15.000 it's in a union campaign, or you're speaking out against 1:38:15.000 --> 1:38:17.320 you know, your neighbors being abducted and shot and killed 1:38:17.320 --> 1:38:20.080 in the street, there is such an expectation that I 1:38:20.400 --> 1:38:22.759 have to sit by and be quiet while this happens. 1:38:23.560 --> 1:38:25.600 And part of that, I think, what does prevent and 1:38:25.600 --> 1:38:28.280 at least in my experience as someone who survived, you know, 1:38:28.439 --> 1:38:31.519 particular kinds of violence that Yeah, I wasn't sure I 1:38:31.600 --> 1:38:35.400 was doing the right thing, but us unionizing is absolutely 1:38:35.439 --> 1:38:37.759 the right thing. It is the right thing for the stores. 1:38:37.800 --> 1:38:39.760 It is the right thing for the community and for 1:38:39.840 --> 1:38:42.760 the workers. And I just as much as I'm frustrated, 1:38:42.840 --> 1:38:46.439 like I know myself and my fellow booksellers are doing 1:38:46.479 --> 1:38:48.920 this out of love, Like it is absolutely love for 1:38:49.000 --> 1:38:50.639 the stores in the community we serve. 1:38:50.760 --> 1:38:54.840 So yeah, we're never going to feel bad for continuing 1:38:55.040 --> 1:38:57.400 to fight for what is the right. 1:38:57.280 --> 1:39:00.200 Thing to do. Yeah, I'm too broke to feel bad. 1:39:00.400 --> 1:39:06.120 Yeah, don't be poisoned by bold. Every time you go 1:39:06.200 --> 1:39:08.000 to the bookstore, support the union. 1:39:08.880 --> 1:39:12.720 Yeah, wear your mask at seminary co op. Yeah, take 1:39:12.760 --> 1:39:13.599 a sab acap pin. 1:39:14.640 --> 1:39:17.320 Yeah. Ask to talk to a manager, make it a 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:17.880 long talk. 1:39:18.040 --> 1:39:20.200 Yeah, honestly, see if you can get one on the floor, 1:39:20.640 --> 1:39:21.200 we'll help you. 1:39:21.520 --> 1:39:21.720 Yeah. 1:39:21.760 --> 1:39:24.400 So how can people help support y'all? And do you 1:39:24.520 --> 1:39:27.200 have places where people can find more information about the 1:39:27.200 --> 1:39:28.759 campaign and follow updates? 1:39:29.240 --> 1:39:32.840 We have a change dot org petition that I think 1:39:32.880 --> 1:39:35.000 if you can link it somewhere in the description. 1:39:35.840 --> 1:39:37.280 Yep, yeah, we will link in the description. 1:39:37.800 --> 1:39:41.280 Yeah. So that that does ask folks to sign off 1:39:41.520 --> 1:39:45.160 and support the termination of Jenny Goltz, their union busting lawyer, 1:39:45.479 --> 1:39:47.919 as well as releasing like the full state of financial 1:39:47.920 --> 1:39:51.840 information too. So there's a change dot org petition. You 1:39:51.880 --> 1:39:55.679 can also follow us on Instagram at some booksellers union 1:39:56.320 --> 1:40:00.360 We've got the little icon with the sabocat sign up tian. 1:40:00.600 --> 1:40:03.160 There are also some action items on some of the posts, 1:40:03.200 --> 1:40:06.280 such as emailing the board and management about the release 1:40:06.280 --> 1:40:10.440 of financial information and also the termination of Jenny Golts's employment. 1:40:10.680 --> 1:40:13.320 You can also emailed those emails on that post about 1:40:13.360 --> 1:40:15.840 the mold too. If you want me to breathe at work. 1:40:17.280 --> 1:40:20.200 Yeah, I'm so glad about this. 1:40:20.200 --> 1:40:23.000 This is I am going to lead the description with 1:40:23.479 --> 1:40:27.040 they are poisoning you, because like, I'm so angry about this. 1:40:28.960 --> 1:40:31.519 Thank you, I'm too tired to be angry about it. 1:40:31.600 --> 1:40:34.679 I'm so glad at this woman the French perspective has 1:40:34.720 --> 1:40:38.760 remembered that the mold is totally bogus, because I had forgotten. 1:40:39.680 --> 1:40:43.840 It's crazy. Yeah, it's so bogus. It's also like it's 1:40:43.880 --> 1:40:46.679 in such plain sight, like if you're in fifty seven 1:40:46.680 --> 1:40:49.080 Street Books and you look to the right of the 1:40:49.120 --> 1:40:51.960 air conditioning unit and room one, you see that shit 1:40:52.040 --> 1:40:55.360 growing on the walls, and it's like, but I also 1:40:55.479 --> 1:40:58.360 feel like if I talked to management, which I tried 1:40:58.880 --> 1:41:01.760 about this, it just is a got a priority. My 1:41:01.880 --> 1:41:06.160 breathing not a priority. Yeah, it is wild. Thank you 1:41:06.200 --> 1:41:06.920 for reminding me. 1:41:06.920 --> 1:41:10.200 That someone one day, when you win, someone's going to 1:41:10.200 --> 1:41:13.920 write a paper by necropolitics in this or something like good. 1:41:13.800 --> 1:41:21.000 Lord, jeez, yeah some shit. Yeah, sign the petition, follow 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:22.920 us on Instagram, help us make our. 1:41:22.880 --> 1:41:26.400 Ruckus and come talk to us and our managers at 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:30.000 the bookstore because we love to talk to people while we. 1:41:29.960 --> 1:41:33.920 Saw them books. Yeah. Yeah, I'll take any good will 1:41:33.960 --> 1:41:36.040 we can get, so very much. 1:41:35.880 --> 1:41:39.080 So hell yeah, Well, thank you to both so much 1:41:39.120 --> 1:41:43.760 for coming on and just for doing this and I 1:41:43.760 --> 1:41:45.840 don't know, like a place that was really special to 1:41:45.880 --> 1:41:48.320 me when I was yeah, when I was there for 1:41:48.320 --> 1:41:48.840 a long time. 1:41:48.920 --> 1:41:51.559 Thanks for your help, Thank you for following up with us. 1:41:51.880 --> 1:41:55.000 Of course, it's really nice to have this platform every 1:41:55.000 --> 1:41:55.479 so often. 1:41:55.920 --> 1:41:58.120 Yeah for sure. 1:41:58.120 --> 1:42:01.040 Oh yeah, well, hopefully we'll have you back on when 1:42:01.040 --> 1:42:01.720 you fucking win. 1:42:02.040 --> 1:42:06.640 And yes, very round. 1:42:07.479 --> 1:42:11.719 I'm buying I'm personally buying the cool Zone media team 1:42:12.240 --> 1:42:15.280 around at Jimmy's. When we win our contract. 1:42:17.640 --> 1:42:20.440 I will come back to my park just for the celebration. 1:42:22.680 --> 1:42:26.599 Change everyone's oil while you're down to yeah, yeah, yeah, no, 1:42:26.680 --> 1:42:27.400 don't take that long. 1:42:27.400 --> 1:42:28.559 I won't be ready for a second. 1:42:31.520 --> 1:42:33.360 Yeah, this is, this has been. It could happen here, 1:42:33.439 --> 1:42:37.200 and you too can resist both your abuser and your boss, 1:42:37.680 --> 1:42:39.679 even when they're the same person, and. 1:42:39.680 --> 1:43:00.679 You should, ay man, get them and welcomed. 1:43:00.720 --> 1:43:03.000 It could happen here. I'm Andrew's age. 1:43:03.280 --> 1:43:07.160 I run andrewism over on YouTube, but I'm here on 1:43:07.200 --> 1:43:09.680 this podcast with the one and only. 1:43:09.880 --> 1:43:13.520 Mia Wong, who does this podcast most of the time. 1:43:14.560 --> 1:43:19.040 Exactly exactly, and I think you and I both have 1:43:19.200 --> 1:43:23.760 something in common, which is that we are people, and 1:43:23.800 --> 1:43:26.120 we are two people, but the world has a lot 1:43:26.160 --> 1:43:29.439 more than just two people. It's a really convoluted way 1:43:29.960 --> 1:43:31.800 of saying that. For this episode, we're going to be 1:43:31.840 --> 1:43:36.439 talking about population. You know, how many of people there are, 1:43:36.560 --> 1:43:39.040 and how many of them there will or will not 1:43:39.120 --> 1:43:42.800 be in the future, and all the different conversations that 1:43:42.920 --> 1:43:44.080 end up happening around. 1:43:43.840 --> 1:43:48.240 That, most of which suck. So it's a time truly. 1:43:49.840 --> 1:43:50.080 Yeah. 1:43:50.160 --> 1:43:52.720 I mean, every single one of us humans is a 1:43:52.920 --> 1:43:57.320 product of billions of years of reproduction. But for most 1:43:57.320 --> 1:44:00.840 of that reproduction, population growth was pretty slow. 1:44:01.479 --> 1:44:01.640 You know. 1:44:01.680 --> 1:44:03.000 The world's population is. 1:44:03.000 --> 1:44:08.960 Estimated at around five million in the eight thousand BC. 1:44:09.920 --> 1:44:14.160 So five million is like the population of New Zealand 1:44:14.720 --> 1:44:19.479 right now, or Costa Rica, or Ireland or Norway, but 1:44:19.640 --> 1:44:22.880 spread across the entire planet. Can you get so many 1:44:22.920 --> 1:44:25.519 people who are alive in the year one? See though, 1:44:26.360 --> 1:44:30.720 thirty million that's actually an underestimate. It's one hundred and 1:44:30.760 --> 1:44:35.599 eighty eight million, jeez, right, So that's between the current 1:44:35.640 --> 1:44:39.840 population of Bangladesh and the current population of Brazil, which 1:44:39.840 --> 1:44:42.599 are at one hundred and sixty nine million and two 1:44:42.680 --> 1:44:45.960 hundred and thirty million, respectively. But that's spread across the 1:44:46.120 --> 1:44:49.479 entire planet. So I mean imagine that, you know, a 1:44:49.560 --> 1:44:53.200 whole world of people so spread out. I mean they 1:44:53.240 --> 1:44:55.760 were concentrated into innarios, of course, but you had all 1:44:55.760 --> 1:45:00.400 this vast forest land and plains and entire content ccidents 1:45:01.160 --> 1:45:06.160 that barely had people compared to today. And the reason 1:45:06.160 --> 1:45:09.120 the population grew so slowly was really because, I mean, 1:45:09.680 --> 1:45:13.800 humans have always been doing the do you know, but 1:45:14.760 --> 1:45:19.560 death was kind of a very present phenomenon. 1:45:19.920 --> 1:45:20.160 You know. 1:45:20.200 --> 1:45:23.840 You had famines, you had plagues, you had the occasional war, 1:45:24.600 --> 1:45:28.160 and you especially had a lot of infant mortality. Yeah, 1:45:28.200 --> 1:45:32.360 and that's what really kept populations in check. You know, 1:45:32.880 --> 1:45:35.880 I remember hearing I don't even remember who it was, 1:45:36.760 --> 1:45:40.920 but this one person had like nineteen children and only 1:45:41.560 --> 1:45:43.440 eight of them survived to adulthood. 1:45:44.000 --> 1:45:48.559 Yeah, they honestly did pretty good, like by those metrics, Like, yeah, 1:45:48.560 --> 1:45:52.000 then infant mortality rate was unbelievably high. 1:45:52.840 --> 1:45:53.120 Yeah. 1:45:53.200 --> 1:45:55.840 Yeah, So families had a lot of children, but only 1:45:55.880 --> 1:45:58.200 a few of them made it to adulthood. Thanks to 1:45:58.520 --> 1:46:02.160 the industrializations, were able to change a bit. You know, 1:46:02.280 --> 1:46:08.600 we improved agriculture, we invented refrigeration, we got better fertilizer, 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:13.840 and most importantly, we developed advancements in sanitisia. You know, 1:46:14.080 --> 1:46:18.160 doctors were actually washing their hands. You know, we developed vaccines, 1:46:18.439 --> 1:46:20.919 so children were dying of measles and mumps. 1:46:22.560 --> 1:46:24.400 Imagine that, good Lord. 1:46:24.560 --> 1:46:28.840 And we also had an overall improvement in medicine. You know, 1:46:28.880 --> 1:46:31.600 one of the greatest inventions of humanity, I think is 1:46:31.680 --> 1:46:36.519 the vaccine. And it's such a wonderful thing that there's 1:46:36.560 --> 1:46:41.479 not this massive movement of people who challenge it's very 1:46:41.680 --> 1:46:45.000 legitimacy in this day and age, and threaten all of 1:46:45.000 --> 1:46:46.040 our lives as a result. 1:46:46.320 --> 1:46:48.320 You know, imagine being in that world. 1:46:49.240 --> 1:46:50.080 God. 1:46:50.400 --> 1:46:54.920 So we eventually hit one billion in the year eighteen 1:46:54.960 --> 1:46:58.880 oh four, which is just below the current population of China, 1:46:59.400 --> 1:47:01.840 and things began to accelerate from there. We end up 1:47:01.840 --> 1:47:07.479 creating something called a Jacob of exponential population growth thanks 1:47:07.520 --> 1:47:11.000 to like I said, the decline in infant mortality and 1:47:11.160 --> 1:47:15.360 improvements and fertility and food production and the other billionaire 1:47:15.560 --> 1:47:19.479 milestone started rolling it. By eighteen oh four, Kiti had 1:47:19.600 --> 1:47:24.040 just gained its independence. Napoleon the First was crowned Emperor France, 1:47:24.600 --> 1:47:28.400 and Lewis and Clark had begun their expedition across America 1:47:29.120 --> 1:47:32.160 in nineteen twenty seven. As one hundred and twenty three 1:47:32.240 --> 1:47:36.840 years later, we hit two billion people. You know, by 1:47:36.880 --> 1:47:39.920 then we had Trotsky being expelled from the USSR, which 1:47:40.160 --> 1:47:43.720 had just been founded. We had Charles Linnenberg completing the 1:47:43.760 --> 1:47:47.840 first solo non stop flight across the Atlantic Ocean. And 1:47:47.880 --> 1:47:51.120 then also in nineteen twenty seven, we had the release 1:47:51.160 --> 1:47:55.160 of the first feature length film to feature synchronized sound 1:47:55.280 --> 1:47:59.000 for dialogue. Quite the time to be Alive. The fast 1:47:59.000 --> 1:48:01.640 forward to thirty three year later, nineteen sixty, and we 1:48:01.720 --> 1:48:06.080 hit three billion people. By then, Nigeria had just gained 1:48:06.080 --> 1:48:09.479 it independence. GfK was in the White House, ham the 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:13.240 Chimpanzee went to space, and the FDA approved the first 1:48:13.320 --> 1:48:17.000 ever both control pill. But the birth control pill didn't 1:48:17.040 --> 1:48:20.360 really kick in in terms of, you know, hampering our 1:48:20.439 --> 1:48:24.599 growth for some time. By nineteen seventy four, fourteen years later, 1:48:24.640 --> 1:48:27.919 we hit four billion people. By then, Nixon had resigned 1:48:28.000 --> 1:48:32.160 to He had invaded Cyprus Portugal overthrow its dictatorship. The 1:48:32.200 --> 1:48:36.080 Godfather Part two came out, and Aber was still at 1:48:36.120 --> 1:48:40.160 the top of the charts. Nineteen eighty seven, thirteen years later, 1:48:40.240 --> 1:48:42.840 when we got five billion people. That's when we had 1:48:43.680 --> 1:48:46.160 most of the major colonies around the world gain the 1:48:46.240 --> 1:48:49.479 independence or having already had gained the independence. You know 1:48:49.600 --> 1:48:54.439 Thatcher was beginning her third term and The Simpsons first 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:57.880 appayed on TV. Twelve years later in nineteen ninety nine, 1:48:58.120 --> 1:49:00.920 we had the Y two K panic, the Impeach Month, 1:49:01.040 --> 1:49:05.240 the SpongeBob premiere, the introduction of the euro, and six 1:49:05.600 --> 1:49:11.840 billion people made their debut on planets twenty eleven. Twelve 1:49:11.920 --> 1:49:15.960 years later we hit seven billion people, and that was 1:49:15.960 --> 1:49:18.880 in the midst of the Arab Spring, a tsunami hit 1:49:18.960 --> 1:49:22.400 in Japan, the Occupy movement, the premiere Game of Thrones, 1:49:22.600 --> 1:49:27.000 and really the beginning of smartphones and social media taken 1:49:27.040 --> 1:49:30.680 over the world. Finally, by twenty twenty two, which is 1:49:30.760 --> 1:49:34.960 eleven years after twenty eleven, we hit eight billion people. 1:49:35.400 --> 1:49:40.560 Amidst Russia invading in Ukraine, the growing popularity of TikTok, 1:49:41.040 --> 1:49:47.559 and Elon's purchase of Twitter. So from eighteen four to 1:49:47.640 --> 1:49:50.840 twenty twenty two we went from one billion people to 1:49:50.880 --> 1:49:55.240 eight billion people, and the un expected to grow by 1:49:55.240 --> 1:49:59.000 about one point nine billion between now and twenty one hundred, 1:49:59.400 --> 1:50:02.080 so we'll end up breaching from eight point two billion 1:50:02.120 --> 1:50:06.120 people to ten point two billion people, and population is 1:50:06.160 --> 1:50:09.840 projected to peak at ten point three billion in twenty 1:50:09.920 --> 1:50:12.799 eighty four and then decline to ten point two billion 1:50:13.240 --> 1:50:17.120 through the end of the century. So with this rapid 1:50:17.720 --> 1:50:22.800 population growth, there has been a lot of fayars surrounding overpopulation. 1:50:23.640 --> 1:50:26.959 Particularly in the late twentieth century and early two thousands, 1:50:26.960 --> 1:50:29.760 there was a lot of conversation around, you know, this 1:50:29.880 --> 1:50:34.759 population bomb, this worry that there were too many people. Now, 1:50:34.840 --> 1:50:37.960 at least early on in the population boom, I think 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:42.559 it makes some sense to have concerns. You know, there 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:45.240 had never been this many people on the eighth at 1:50:45.240 --> 1:50:47.439 any point in time prior. You know, if you're watching 1:50:47.479 --> 1:50:49.960 the numbers climb and climb and climb, you might have 1:50:50.040 --> 1:50:53.400 thought we were headed straight for a planet covered in 1:50:53.479 --> 1:50:57.680 cities and some kind of collapse. But even before we 1:50:57.800 --> 1:51:02.040 even hit a billion people. Yeah, idea of overpopulation being 1:51:02.280 --> 1:51:06.599 a significant problem wasn't new. In late seventeen hundreds, Thomas 1:51:06.600 --> 1:51:11.840 Mauthus argued that population would always outpace food supply, and 1:51:12.520 --> 1:51:15.040 his prediction was that there'd be tw many people, not 1:51:15.200 --> 1:51:20.880 enough resources, and a decline into famine, disease and mass death. 1:51:21.920 --> 1:51:22.680 Now he was. 1:51:22.600 --> 1:51:27.559 Obviously proven wrong, but in nineteenth century Britain, Marthus's ideas 1:51:27.640 --> 1:51:32.280 helped justify the harsh wealthare policies that that government ended 1:51:32.360 --> 1:51:37.559 up implementing, like the spread of workhouses around the country. Also, 1:51:38.160 --> 1:51:42.120 we speak about faminis if it's this natural phenomenon that 1:51:42.320 --> 1:51:46.000 can't be helped, that is just almost like a hurricane 1:51:46.160 --> 1:51:50.439 or a tornado. But famines are usually not actually the 1:51:50.479 --> 1:51:53.440 result of not having enough food. 1:51:53.520 --> 1:51:53.720 You know. 1:51:54.000 --> 1:51:59.200 Amartya Sen found that famines usually happened despite food surpluses. 1:52:00.120 --> 1:52:04.160 He was usually distribution and not scarcity, you know. A 1:52:04.240 --> 1:52:09.000 famous example being you know, during the Irish famine, Ireland 1:52:09.080 --> 1:52:14.000 was still exporting tons of food to feed its colonial overlord. 1:52:14.479 --> 1:52:17.280 So we fast forward to nineteen sixty eight and the 1:52:17.320 --> 1:52:22.320 biologist Paul Erlich publishes The Population Bomb. He describes visiting 1:52:22.439 --> 1:52:27.800 Delhi and feeling the crush of overpopulation, convinced that massterviation 1:52:28.040 --> 1:52:31.760 was imminent in the nineteen seventies. Now, I think that 1:52:31.880 --> 1:52:35.400 book that he published was one of the main influences 1:52:35.439 --> 1:52:40.719 in the widespread panic around overpopulation. You know, governments started 1:52:40.760 --> 1:52:44.639 to scramble about a lot of policies were born, likely 1:52:44.880 --> 1:52:48.439 from people reading that very book. You know, some of 1:52:48.479 --> 1:52:52.479 these policies were fairly benign. You know, you promote family planning, 1:52:52.600 --> 1:52:57.719 you improve access to contraceptives, you improve education for women especially, 1:52:58.280 --> 1:53:03.280 But other approaches were very harsh and brutal. You know, 1:53:03.320 --> 1:53:08.800 you had sterilization campaigns, forced sterilization campaigns taking place in 1:53:08.800 --> 1:53:13.400 India and Puerto Rico and in the United States. China's 1:53:13.439 --> 1:53:16.120 one child policy also gets a lot of attention, but 1:53:16.960 --> 1:53:21.839 it was only one example of a widespread brutality around 1:53:22.080 --> 1:53:27.960 the impositions placed on women, especially in that time, the 1:53:27.960 --> 1:53:32.000 fear of too many people and that anxiety leading to 1:53:32.560 --> 1:53:36.040 the control of women and their bodies. And it's a 1:53:36.080 --> 1:53:39.720 scary prospect, especially if you were a minority in this time, 1:53:39.760 --> 1:53:43.320 if you were a cultural, racial, or religious minority, Because 1:53:43.320 --> 1:53:46.960 it made very ordinary human activity, things like moving around, 1:53:47.439 --> 1:53:51.400 having children, just existing being it seemed like an existential 1:53:51.520 --> 1:53:55.439 threat to civilization, to humanity that needed to be dealt 1:53:55.479 --> 1:54:11.080 with by any means necessary. So they had some positive outcomes, 1:54:11.120 --> 1:54:15.439 of good positive outcomes of the overpopulation concerned. You know, 1:54:15.479 --> 1:54:20.120 you had pushes foreman's empowerment. You had the proposal of 1:54:20.400 --> 1:54:25.080 improved urbanization to reduce the sprawl of human activity. You 1:54:25.160 --> 1:54:30.519 also have people proposing things like extraterrestrial settlements, which you know, 1:54:30.560 --> 1:54:35.240 it's not really realistic as a solution for a multitude 1:54:35.280 --> 1:54:36.160 of valid reasons. 1:54:36.400 --> 1:54:38.680 Yeah, I think it's really. 1:54:38.440 --> 1:54:41.280 Funny, you know, whenever other people push that sort of yeah, 1:54:41.360 --> 1:54:44.640 humans are destined for the stars kind of narrative. You know, 1:54:44.960 --> 1:54:49.240 it's a story, a really powerful story coming out of 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:52.000 science fiction, and it's good that it has inspired people 1:54:52.080 --> 1:54:56.160 to learn more about space, and you know that their 1:54:56.160 --> 1:54:59.360 lives to the study of the stars and that kind 1:54:59.400 --> 1:55:01.600 of thing. But this idea that would to be shipping 1:55:01.640 --> 1:55:05.440 off like millions of people off planet to settle on 1:55:05.520 --> 1:55:10.240 other planets, I think is pretty safely in the realm 1:55:10.320 --> 1:55:11.040 of science fiction. 1:55:11.880 --> 1:55:14.040 Yeah, that's a full Like get back to me. In 1:55:14.080 --> 1:55:17.680 a thousand years, we could baby start talking about moving 1:55:17.880 --> 1:55:19.839 like thousands of people. 1:55:20.320 --> 1:55:23.040 Yeah, even thousands or hundreds of people. I mean, we 1:55:23.080 --> 1:55:26.680 don't have those those massive generationships. We can't even get 1:55:26.680 --> 1:55:30.360 those off the ground at this stage in our spacecraft. 1:55:31.080 --> 1:55:33.240 And we also have a lot of issues to resolve 1:55:33.280 --> 1:55:36.800 on Earth before we spread our problems across the galaxy 1:55:36.840 --> 1:55:40.800 as far as I'm concerned. But Beyond these solutions, the 1:55:41.080 --> 1:55:45.240 ideas and public discourses around population have also boothed a 1:55:45.280 --> 1:55:48.720 lot of conspiracy theories. You know, I'm sure you might 1:55:48.760 --> 1:55:51.560 have heard a few of them in your time. 1:55:51.760 --> 1:55:56.000 Oh boy, yep, this is one of the big Alex 1:55:56.080 --> 1:55:59.440 Jones things. For example, So he's convinced that there's like 1:55:59.480 --> 1:56:03.040 a giant plot by the globalists to kill off an 1:56:03.160 --> 1:56:06.800 enormous part of human population to stop over population or something. 1:56:06.960 --> 1:56:12.480 It's yeah, yeah, Honestly, any combination of conspiracies can be 1:56:13.320 --> 1:56:16.360 smushed together to fit that kind of narrative, and they 1:56:16.360 --> 1:56:20.760 can talk about all the vaccine sterilizing people, the chemtrails, 1:56:21.000 --> 1:56:26.240 the five Gita was, the Bill Gates, microchips, they are 1:56:26.280 --> 1:56:30.040 even the food supply, all these things allegedly being used 1:56:30.040 --> 1:56:33.360 to sterilize people. I'm not to say that there isn't 1:56:33.880 --> 1:56:39.480 validity to any claims of the things that we consume 1:56:40.520 --> 1:56:45.440 contributing to lower fertility. The fact that we clothe ourselves 1:56:45.440 --> 1:56:48.720 in like polyester. You know, we still have a full 1:56:48.880 --> 1:56:53.000 idea of the impact of microplastics on our bodies. You know, 1:56:53.080 --> 1:56:58.280 there's valid concerns about some of the consequences of the 1:56:58.360 --> 1:57:03.400 ultra processed foods that you know, fill out grocery shells. 1:57:03.920 --> 1:57:07.080 But that's just the sad thing about conspiracy theories. You know, 1:57:07.120 --> 1:57:12.400 they have some kleinos of truth mixed in to boster. 1:57:12.600 --> 1:57:14.840 They have validity, but then they mix it up with 1:57:14.880 --> 1:57:20.320 a bunch of garbage about you know that's a nonsense. Yeah, 1:57:20.360 --> 1:57:22.240 And then of course, I mean some of these consciracy 1:57:22.280 --> 1:57:23.360 theories are kind of benign. 1:57:23.480 --> 1:57:24.760 You know, like if you think it's. 1:57:24.800 --> 1:57:28.200 Five gitas, I guess you'd put a I don't know, 1:57:28.560 --> 1:57:30.840 a tinfoil hat on your junk. 1:57:32.000 --> 1:57:35.040 But I mean, to be fair, there was one of 1:57:35.120 --> 1:57:37.960 the five g guys who did like blow himself up 1:57:38.000 --> 1:57:39.200 at a giant car bomb. 1:57:39.320 --> 1:57:41.400 I did not hear about that a couple of years 1:57:41.400 --> 1:57:42.120 ago down. 1:57:42.440 --> 1:57:46.640 Oh yeah, luckily he only killed himself, but giant giant 1:57:46.640 --> 1:57:50.440 car bomb in the middle of I wanted to say 1:57:50.640 --> 1:57:55.400 Memphis or something down Yeah. But yeah, so like every 1:57:55.440 --> 1:57:58.360 once in a while he gets some real oh boys 1:57:58.400 --> 1:57:59.160 stuff from that. 1:58:00.240 --> 1:58:00.960 Yeah yeah. 1:58:01.360 --> 1:58:06.000 I mean, honestly, people could take even the simplest things 1:58:06.040 --> 1:58:09.040 and turn it into a threat to themselves and others 1:58:09.760 --> 1:58:12.160 if they're not in the right headspace. So they haven't 1:58:12.160 --> 1:58:16.400 been given the right sports sad rely and obviously like 1:58:16.480 --> 1:58:18.480 none of the conspiracies of A nine. I mean, if 1:58:18.480 --> 1:58:22.160 you have people rejecting vaccines, you know, it's almost like 1:58:22.200 --> 1:58:25.640 we're in the world that I alluded to earlier, you know, 1:58:26.680 --> 1:58:28.800 where we have our residence and measles. 1:58:28.840 --> 1:58:29.520 For example. 1:58:30.160 --> 1:58:33.000 Yeah, Jim O'Neil, who's the Deputy Secretary of Health and 1:58:33.080 --> 1:58:36.600 Human Services and the acting director for the CDC literally 1:58:37.400 --> 1:58:44.280 on Monday, called for splitting the MMR vaccine it's multiple vaccines, like, 1:58:44.320 --> 1:58:47.080 which is basically which is just straight up the Andrew 1:58:47.080 --> 1:58:49.680 Wakefield I think, like I've said this on seven podcasts 1:58:49.720 --> 1:58:53.360 on this show now, but this is literally just straight 1:58:53.440 --> 1:58:56.400 up the Andrew Wakefield anti vaccine thing from the original 1:58:56.480 --> 1:58:59.040 giant anti vaccine panic in the nineties. 1:58:58.720 --> 1:59:00.600 That was the autism seeing thing. 1:59:01.200 --> 1:59:03.440 Yeah yeah, like and this is this is this is 1:59:03.440 --> 1:59:06.840 the guy who's currently running the CDC. It's just being like, no, yeah, 1:59:06.880 --> 1:59:07.640 you should do this thing. 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:09.400 That's yeah, yeah, you guys are cooked. 1:59:10.680 --> 1:59:13.000 Yeah again, this thing that was developed specifically so that 1:59:13.040 --> 1:59:15.160 Antie Wakefield could sell his own vaccine. 1:59:15.880 --> 1:59:19.560 Oh yeah, yeah. I mean that's that's the thing. 1:59:19.560 --> 1:59:21.920 If I was conspiracy brain, I would say that actually 1:59:21.920 --> 1:59:28.680 the popularization of vaccine conspiracies on social media sites contributes 1:59:28.760 --> 1:59:31.920 to exactly that kind of population control that those same 1:59:32.040 --> 1:59:36.120 conspiracy theorists famonga about. But that's if I was conspiracy brain, 1:59:36.720 --> 1:59:37.240 which I'm not. 1:59:38.960 --> 1:59:43.080 God, So someone someone believes that somewhere, absolutely, there is 1:59:43.120 --> 1:59:46.040 someone who's like, the anti vaxxers are a conspiracy to 1:59:46.080 --> 1:59:48.160 call them goal population or something like. 1:59:49.480 --> 1:59:52.280 No, because I mean, we have this very straightforwardly effective 1:59:53.200 --> 1:59:55.520 human invention and one of the best in the history 1:59:55.560 --> 1:59:59.720 of humankind. And you're telling me that a couple of 1:59:59.720 --> 2:00:06.600 people on Facebook and are responsible for the entire government 2:00:07.560 --> 2:00:13.080 rejecting the effectiveness of vaccines and you know, jeopardizing the 2:00:13.240 --> 2:00:14.640 healthy entire population. 2:00:15.560 --> 2:00:21.800 Come on, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, the true believers are 2:00:21.800 --> 2:00:22.600 in charge now. 2:00:24.720 --> 2:00:28.200 Indeed, indeed they are true believers, and of course people 2:00:28.200 --> 2:00:32.280 who stand to profit from the dip in the sales 2:00:32.320 --> 2:00:37.760 of paracetamol and whatever else. So they're those conspiracies about population. 2:00:38.120 --> 2:00:42.760 And then there's the typical far right Nazi conspiracies about 2:00:42.760 --> 2:00:48.360 great replacement, right, the idea that shataway elites orchestrating falling 2:00:48.360 --> 2:00:53.160 blue rates among white populations while encouraging immigration from the 2:00:53.200 --> 2:00:56.600 population boomen global seuth. I mean, of course, not all 2:00:56.640 --> 2:00:59.680 the global self is woomen population wise, a lot of 2:00:59.760 --> 2:01:03.440 please there's also experience in decline. It's a global problem. 2:01:03.520 --> 2:01:07.000 But we're going to get to that. Unconnected, of course, 2:01:07.040 --> 2:01:09.520 to those great replacement times. So you have the eco 2:01:09.600 --> 2:01:13.160 fash with their worries about the environmental impact of population, 2:01:14.080 --> 2:01:18.080 and their twisted belief that environmental collapse could be solved 2:01:18.160 --> 2:01:21.280 by reducing the number of people, which usually ends up 2:01:21.320 --> 2:01:24.280 target in marginalized groups, which is exactly the kind of 2:01:24.320 --> 2:01:27.760 thinking that inspired real violence, like with the Christian shooter 2:01:28.400 --> 2:01:31.520 in twenty nineteen. And of course the actual drivers of 2:01:31.640 --> 2:01:35.680 ecological collapse are not poor families in India or Africa 2:01:35.840 --> 2:01:39.320 having too many kids. It's the over consumption of the 2:01:39.360 --> 2:01:44.000 global norse. You know, if you actually wanted to reduce consumption, 2:01:44.280 --> 2:01:47.360 reduce the impact of population on the planet, are you 2:01:47.400 --> 2:01:49.480 going to start with fewer people? Are going to start 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:54.440 with fewer billionaires flying private jets. You know, it's not 2:01:54.520 --> 2:01:57.800 about the number of people they head count, it's about 2:01:57.800 --> 2:02:01.600 their lifestyles and the systems that support what those lifestyles. 2:02:01.920 --> 2:02:05.480 You know, believing population is a very cheap, simplistic and 2:02:05.600 --> 2:02:09.360 cowardly get out of jail free code for the rich 2:02:09.480 --> 2:02:12.880 minority that drive this systemic crisis. 2:02:13.280 --> 2:02:13.560 Yep. 2:02:14.000 --> 2:02:16.360 The thing about this, obviously is that if you believe 2:02:16.360 --> 2:02:18.240 that you need to reduce the human population, that it's 2:02:18.240 --> 2:02:19.760 your obligation to go first. 2:02:21.680 --> 2:02:23.560 Yes, well, we are going to talk about those types 2:02:23.600 --> 2:02:27.520 of people in the next episode. But you know, speaking 2:02:27.640 --> 2:02:32.760 of the overpopulation, I think nowadays at least an opposite 2:02:33.080 --> 2:02:37.520 concern that is dominating the headlines. You know, in wealthier, 2:02:37.640 --> 2:02:41.320 more developed countries, fertility tends to be lower, and that's 2:02:41.360 --> 2:02:43.840 tied to things like back to education, more women working, 2:02:44.080 --> 2:02:47.920 urban living, greater choices, greater access to contraception, et cetera. 2:02:48.440 --> 2:02:51.480 But in less developed countries, fertility is usually higher because 2:02:51.600 --> 2:02:54.520 children are often seen as both help and hands and 2:02:54.600 --> 2:02:58.800 future caregivers, and education and access to both control are 2:02:58.800 --> 2:03:01.960 more limited. But the global fertility rate is now steadily 2:03:02.040 --> 2:03:06.120 dropping due to that increasing development, greater access to birth control, 2:03:06.240 --> 2:03:10.600 creater education of women's rights, And there's a fair nowadays 2:03:10.880 --> 2:03:13.360 where there won't be enough people to support the system 2:03:13.440 --> 2:03:17.200 as it has been built. Remember, capitalism is predicated on 2:03:17.640 --> 2:03:22.760 endless growth. When its population starts to decline, naturally, everything 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:26.480 that is building towards in terms of the amount of consumers, 2:03:26.480 --> 2:03:30.440 the amount of infrastructure, the amount of workers. Those are 2:03:30.440 --> 2:03:33.320 not going to be there anymore, especially as more and 2:03:33.320 --> 2:03:36.560 more people end up dipping out of the workforce as 2:03:36.600 --> 2:03:50.480 they age. So in twenty three, the global average had 2:03:50.520 --> 2:03:54.160 dropped to just two point three children poor women, which 2:03:54.240 --> 2:03:57.000 is less than half of what it was sixty years ago. 2:03:57.320 --> 2:04:01.200 According to the United Nations, fertility will keep fallen throughout 2:04:01.280 --> 2:04:04.040 the century, and by the year twenty one hundred, the 2:04:04.080 --> 2:04:07.720 global average is expected to dip the low replacement level 2:04:07.800 --> 2:04:10.879 of two point one to about one point eight children 2:04:11.000 --> 2:04:15.600 poor woman. Now, some countries are already there. Japan sits 2:04:15.600 --> 2:04:19.240 at a one point two children poor woman, Italy, Spain, 2:04:19.320 --> 2:04:22.080 and much of Eastern Europe are well below one point five. 2:04:22.760 --> 2:04:27.160 South Korea is famously a demographic outlier at zero point 2:04:27.200 --> 2:04:31.080 seven children poor woman, which is the lowest facility rate 2:04:31.120 --> 2:04:34.080 in the world. And that means obviously that on average, 2:04:34.160 --> 2:04:37.720 Korean women are having less than one child each for 2:04:37.920 --> 2:04:43.120 very valid reasons, I might add, considering the economic and 2:04:43.880 --> 2:04:48.440 cultural conditions in that country. Now, I don't live in 2:04:48.480 --> 2:04:53.200 Eastern Europe or Southern Europe or East Asia, I live 2:04:53.240 --> 2:04:53.800 in the Caribbean. 2:04:53.880 --> 2:04:55.080 I live in Trinan, Tobago. 2:04:55.600 --> 2:04:59.760 But speaking anecdotally at least, which obviously is not representative 2:04:59.760 --> 2:05:03.120 of the full picture, I can count, maybe had one hand, 2:05:03.400 --> 2:05:06.800 the number of people I know my age who think 2:05:06.840 --> 2:05:09.680 that they'll be able to bring children into the world, 2:05:10.080 --> 2:05:11.080 whether they want. 2:05:10.840 --> 2:05:11.480 To or not. 2:05:12.440 --> 2:05:15.280 You know, very few people I know actually want children, 2:05:15.720 --> 2:05:17.920 or if they do want children, they don't think they'll 2:05:17.920 --> 2:05:21.400 be able to afford to have children. But maybe that's 2:05:21.400 --> 2:05:22.800 a selfishness. What do you think. 2:05:24.160 --> 2:05:28.560 I mean, I don't know, like I am not interacting 2:05:28.600 --> 2:05:35.200 with a representative example of the population. But no, yeah, 2:05:35.240 --> 2:05:40.720 I mean it's a lot of people who are like no, 2:05:42.040 --> 2:05:44.520 and it's too expensive. It sucks, I don't want to 2:05:44.560 --> 2:05:48.600 deal with this. But again, like, not not a representative 2:05:49.320 --> 2:05:50.600 sample here. 2:05:52.760 --> 2:05:56.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you could just look at 2:05:56.320 --> 2:05:59.960 the economy. Things have been getting wood for my entire life. 2:06:00.160 --> 2:06:01.920 You know, there hasn't been any point in my life 2:06:01.960 --> 2:06:05.919 where anyone in my generation could look around honestly and say, yeah, 2:06:06.040 --> 2:06:08.240 you know, this is we be cooking. You know, it's 2:06:08.280 --> 2:06:11.720 time to double double it. You know, let's have a child. 2:06:11.840 --> 2:06:14.040 You know, the housing situation has gotten worse. The cost 2:06:14.040 --> 2:06:16.440 of living and as a whole has gotten worse, child 2:06:16.480 --> 2:06:20.160 care costs have gotten worse. And of course, outside of 2:06:20.200 --> 2:06:24.160 that economic stuff, there's also cultural attitude shifts and people 2:06:24.200 --> 2:06:27.440 realizing I don't need to have a child to be fulfilled, 2:06:27.560 --> 2:06:31.240 to find meaning. You know, people are able to pursue 2:06:31.880 --> 2:06:36.880 higher education, and also they're more educated about the process 2:06:36.920 --> 2:06:41.840 of child bearing in general, including the very valid medical 2:06:42.040 --> 2:06:46.440 concerns surrounding that whole process. I mean, if I were 2:06:46.480 --> 2:06:49.360 a woman, I would not want to have a child. 2:06:50.040 --> 2:06:54.880 You know, the consequences on their bodies, on their minds, 2:06:54.960 --> 2:06:58.040 and their health, the risks to their very life are 2:06:58.080 --> 2:07:01.880 not something that can be swept aside as it was previously. 2:07:01.920 --> 2:07:04.320 People are aware of it now, people are talking about 2:07:04.360 --> 2:07:07.160 it now, and they are empowered to make decisions that 2:07:07.720 --> 2:07:10.000 be right for them. You know, a lot of people 2:07:10.040 --> 2:07:12.560 are also very much focused on their careers, either by 2:07:12.680 --> 2:07:15.040 choice or because they don't have any other choice but 2:07:15.160 --> 2:07:18.200 to focus on putting food on the table. You know, 2:07:18.240 --> 2:07:22.160 people are also getting married later and as a whole, 2:07:22.240 --> 2:07:27.040 we have shifted to what a more individual society. So 2:07:27.080 --> 2:07:29.600 you know, in the past you did have the extended families, 2:07:29.680 --> 2:07:33.960 the closet communities that made raising children a bit more manageable. 2:07:34.600 --> 2:07:38.480 But today it's a bit rarer to find, and you 2:07:38.560 --> 2:07:41.000 send to see a lot more nuclear families or even 2:07:41.080 --> 2:07:44.880 just individuals going at it a loonan you know, less 2:07:44.880 --> 2:07:48.959 support and more isolation, and so it makes it very difficult. 2:07:50.200 --> 2:07:52.680 And then there's the existential angst of it all. You know, 2:07:52.720 --> 2:07:55.200 I can't forget the fact that there are multiple wars 2:07:55.280 --> 2:07:57.520 waging around the world. You know, there's a lot of 2:07:57.560 --> 2:08:00.800 political instability in much of the world, and of course 2:08:00.840 --> 2:08:05.600 the biggest issue of all climate change, which makes it honestly, 2:08:06.360 --> 2:08:09.560 it makes it feel it responsible to even think about 2:08:09.640 --> 2:08:14.640 bringing a child into this mess. So a declining fertility, 2:08:14.680 --> 2:08:18.960 a decline in population, it has the government's panicing. You know, 2:08:19.200 --> 2:08:22.800 China went from having decades of a one child policy 2:08:23.040 --> 2:08:26.520 to now desperately trying to encourage people to have more babies. 2:08:26.840 --> 2:08:30.960 They're offering cash bonuses and housing books and extended parent 2:08:31.080 --> 2:08:34.680 to leave. But it's not really working. You know, as 2:08:34.720 --> 2:08:37.240 populations are aging, there's a lot more elderly people to 2:08:37.360 --> 2:08:41.160 care for and fewer workinish people to support them. So 2:08:41.240 --> 2:08:44.480 that is you know, a recipe for pension crises and 2:08:44.560 --> 2:08:49.520 labor shortages and spiral and healthcare costs. So some governments 2:08:49.560 --> 2:08:53.760 are even trying to raise the retirement age, which, as 2:08:53.880 --> 2:08:56.800 France and their protests have shown, is not going to 2:08:56.840 --> 2:08:59.720 go over well with much of the population. Nobody wants 2:08:59.720 --> 2:09:03.280 to work extra five years and extra ten years more 2:09:03.560 --> 2:09:06.360 when they've already put so much of their lives to 2:09:06.400 --> 2:09:12.360 these dead end pointless and you know, mentally and physically 2:09:12.440 --> 2:09:16.640 dreaming tasks that really just line the pockets of their bosses. 2:09:17.240 --> 2:09:18.880 It is worth pointing out the last year there was 2:09:18.920 --> 2:09:22.720 a pretty massive raise in the retirement age people in China. 2:09:22.840 --> 2:09:26.640 That's being phased in a way where're going to take 2:09:27.400 --> 2:09:30.400 over the course of fifteen years. It goes up gradually 2:09:30.680 --> 2:09:33.680 to sort of like spread out the anger over it. 2:09:33.800 --> 2:09:36.440 But yeah, it is worth noting that China's is like 2:09:36.760 --> 2:09:40.680 significantly increased or is going to significantly increase over the 2:09:40.680 --> 2:09:44.120 course of the next fifteen years. 2:09:43.080 --> 2:09:44.640 M Yeah. 2:09:44.800 --> 2:09:47.680 And then on the other side of things, there is 2:09:47.720 --> 2:09:50.760 in the retirement age now, but the young people who 2:09:50.800 --> 2:09:53.640 are working today are more than likely not going to 2:09:53.680 --> 2:09:54.800 get any kind of pension. 2:09:55.360 --> 2:09:55.680 Yeah. 2:09:56.320 --> 2:10:00.800 Yeah, I've rather the world of my sixty don't look 2:10:00.840 --> 2:10:04.360 like the world of my twenties, that would be my preference. 2:10:04.880 --> 2:10:07.760 So I would rather that we've reached a point as 2:10:07.800 --> 2:10:11.920 a society where pensions are not the necessary band aid 2:10:11.920 --> 2:10:15.360 that they are right now. But until then, you know, 2:10:15.400 --> 2:10:18.000 there's quite the powder keg. 2:10:18.400 --> 2:10:19.520 Yeah. 2:10:19.880 --> 2:10:21.720 We also have in Eastern Europe, you know, you have 2:10:21.800 --> 2:10:26.720 countries rolling out pro natalist policies that tie financial support 2:10:26.840 --> 2:10:30.680 directly to family size. I'm going to get a bit 2:10:30.760 --> 2:10:34.640 more into pronatalists in the next episode. But there's also 2:10:34.680 --> 2:10:40.000 the darker side of that pronatalist push in terms of 2:10:40.160 --> 2:10:45.800 the policies meant to reverse the population decline. Some governments, 2:10:46.000 --> 2:10:50.520 instead of making life better for potential appearance, are criminalizing 2:10:51.280 --> 2:10:54.360 They're turning to anti choice policies. They are strict in abortion, 2:10:54.440 --> 2:10:58.440 and they're limited reproductive rights. They're demonizing child free lifestyles. 2:10:58.960 --> 2:11:03.920 Russia actually recently criminalized what they called child the free propaganda, 2:11:04.440 --> 2:11:08.360 you know. And then this is also part of a 2:11:08.400 --> 2:11:12.720 broader conversation about population where they have the immigration concerns 2:11:12.760 --> 2:11:16.120 as a political flashpoint because a lot of wealthy countries, 2:11:16.840 --> 2:11:19.960 because of their population decline, are starting to rely more 2:11:20.120 --> 2:11:23.440 on immigrants to keep their economies going. But as a 2:11:23.480 --> 2:11:27.000 flip side that tends to fuel backlash from the farhad 2:11:27.000 --> 2:11:29.400 groups who are able to frame it as a threat 2:11:29.400 --> 2:11:32.880 to national identity, and because the system of the states 2:11:32.880 --> 2:11:35.640 and capitalism is not interested in actually taking care of people, 2:11:36.200 --> 2:11:40.080 those immigrants become a very useful scapegoat. 2:11:41.000 --> 2:11:41.200 You know. 2:11:41.240 --> 2:11:45.000 Obviously, I'm in support of people moving and living wherever 2:11:45.040 --> 2:11:47.880 they want to move and live as they please. I 2:11:47.920 --> 2:11:51.960 don't believe in borders, especially as the climate consequences are 2:11:52.040 --> 2:11:55.400 hitting those of us in the global South boost. But 2:11:55.920 --> 2:11:58.480 I also I'm not a fan of the way that 2:11:58.600 --> 2:12:01.520 some progressives end up talking about immigration, where they act 2:12:01.520 --> 2:12:04.200 as if, you know, the global sealth is like a 2:12:04.240 --> 2:12:08.560 population bank that wealthy countries could tap into and you know, 2:12:08.920 --> 2:12:12.320 pull population from, regardless of the consequences on the home 2:12:12.360 --> 2:12:16.600 countries of these people. You know, it's like, let immigrants come, 2:12:16.920 --> 2:12:19.280 and I'm all for that, But then it's also like, 2:12:20.040 --> 2:12:24.200 your your government is destabilizing their governments, your your system, 2:12:24.360 --> 2:12:27.360 your economic system, and the global economic systems beaking life 2:12:27.680 --> 2:12:31.960 in those countries unlivable. And I think the priority also 2:12:32.000 --> 2:12:35.360 needs to be on dealing with that issue and not 2:12:35.640 --> 2:12:37.880 just shrugging and saying, well, you know, not. At least 2:12:38.120 --> 2:12:42.040 immigrants are able to help our economy stay aflut even 2:12:42.160 --> 2:12:47.360 as their countries languish and suffer. So to kind of 2:12:47.400 --> 2:12:50.880 wrap things up, where does this all leave us? You know, 2:12:50.920 --> 2:12:54.000 for centuries we feared having two many people, and now 2:12:54.000 --> 2:12:57.120 we're signed to fair having too few people, and both 2:12:57.120 --> 2:13:01.360 anxieties are shaping policy, feel and racy theories and sparkan 2:13:01.480 --> 2:13:06.160 culture wars. And whether the future holds overcrowded cities or 2:13:06.360 --> 2:13:11.320 ghost towns really depends on the direction of politics, economy, culture, 2:13:11.320 --> 2:13:12.200 and urban designs. 2:13:12.240 --> 2:13:12.480 Teak. 2:13:13.120 --> 2:13:15.000 On the next episode, I'm going to be talking about 2:13:15.040 --> 2:13:19.040 the ideas around the population, the pro natalists and the 2:13:19.040 --> 2:13:24.080 anti natalists. But until then, I've been Andrew Sage here 2:13:24.160 --> 2:13:28.080 with Mia Wong on it could Happen Here. 2:13:28.520 --> 2:13:28.600 This. 2:13:49.760 --> 2:13:54.640 Trigger Trader, I heard ah, Hello, Welcome to It could 2:13:54.680 --> 2:13:59.680 Happen Here? The Spooky Special. I'm your host, Garrison Davis. 2:14:00.400 --> 2:14:03.560 Once again, there has been far too many important world 2:14:03.560 --> 2:14:06.440 events taking precedents that we here at the show are 2:14:06.600 --> 2:14:11.120 unable to provide listeners with an entire spooky week's worth 2:14:11.280 --> 2:14:16.280 of themed episodes. But I know how important Halloween is 2:14:16.320 --> 2:14:19.640 for many millennials, so I've taken it upon myself to 2:14:19.640 --> 2:14:24.640 produce two spooky episodes to book and the Holiday, this 2:14:24.760 --> 2:14:28.240 episode that you're listening to right now, as well as 2:14:28.280 --> 2:14:32.200 another that will release Monday morning or Sunday night. As 2:14:32.360 --> 2:14:37.280 the world is becoming an increasingly spooky, scary place, I 2:14:37.360 --> 2:14:40.920 needed to up the ante to exceed the weird and 2:14:41.040 --> 2:14:44.800 eerie fright that comes from living in America and the 2:14:44.840 --> 2:14:49.160 world in general in twenty twenty five. So last week 2:14:49.400 --> 2:14:53.600 I traveled from New York to Brussels, briefly caught up 2:14:53.640 --> 2:14:56.800 with my close personal friend and colleague Hinton, and then 2:14:56.840 --> 2:15:01.760 took the train to Germany. Very scary indeed, once in Germany, 2:15:02.000 --> 2:15:06.760 I was confronted with seemingly occult words and symbols. People 2:15:06.800 --> 2:15:10.760 spoke in odd incantations. I came across a map that 2:15:10.840 --> 2:15:15.280 appeared via my black scrying mirror the iPhone, which, upon deciphering, 2:15:15.520 --> 2:15:19.320 led me to an old power plant warehouse in East Berlin. 2:15:20.400 --> 2:15:24.280 I entered this dark, looming building and inside the air 2:15:24.440 --> 2:15:28.280 was thick with smoke and incense. Figures dressed in all 2:15:28.360 --> 2:15:33.320 black emerged from the fog, Witches, wizards and magicians. I 2:15:33.400 --> 2:15:37.600 followed them into a candlelit room. Where hooded occultists conducted 2:15:37.640 --> 2:15:42.000 a ritual welcoming us to the twenty twenty five A 2:15:42.160 --> 2:15:46.800 Culture Conference. A Culture is a by yearly conference that's 2:15:46.880 --> 2:15:51.000 once every two years, focusing on the intersection of occultism 2:15:51.160 --> 2:15:56.280 and culture, pop or otherwise. This is arguably the most 2:15:56.400 --> 2:16:00.880 prestigious occultism conference in the world. I have been wanting 2:16:00.920 --> 2:16:04.440 to attend four years, and I was finally able to 2:16:04.480 --> 2:16:07.280 go this go round on the condition that I make 2:16:07.360 --> 2:16:11.640 four podcast episodes. The two that I'm releasing this week 2:16:11.680 --> 2:16:15.320 and next will cover some of the core magical and 2:16:15.400 --> 2:16:19.560 topical currents throughout the conference, mostly via a panel discussion 2:16:19.560 --> 2:16:24.919 between myself and three other attendees, and then before Christmas, 2:16:24.920 --> 2:16:28.680 I'll have two fully scripted episodes interrogating these concepts further 2:16:29.160 --> 2:16:33.440 and discussing the use of occult practice in twenty twenty five. 2:16:34.240 --> 2:16:38.160 So to start, let's meet our panelists. I should introduce 2:16:38.200 --> 2:16:46.760 my magical travel team for this conference. Let's start with Delta, 2:16:47.720 --> 2:16:51.400 a Belgian magician and artist which I recruited to join 2:16:51.440 --> 2:16:56.760 me in this wacky adventure. Delta Sahi, Hello, what do 2:16:56.800 --> 2:17:01.760 you do, Delta? What's your magical specialty? I suppose well, 2:17:01.800 --> 2:17:04.280 it's kind of into the microphone. It's kind of a 2:17:04.280 --> 2:17:05.680 mix of things where. 2:17:07.160 --> 2:17:07.920 Part of it is. 2:17:07.879 --> 2:17:11.960 Just into the microphone. I'm sorry, how you can you 2:17:12.160 --> 2:17:13.720 can you can get you can get prety close to. 2:17:13.680 --> 2:17:17.200 It, Okay. It's a kind of a mix of things 2:17:17.240 --> 2:17:23.600 really between conventional chaos magic and more theoretical like weird 2:17:23.680 --> 2:17:27.640 theory stuff like Mark Fisher and the CCRU adjacent things. 2:17:27.800 --> 2:17:36.240 We talk a lot about Mark Fisher, some landstuff, metafiction theory, fiction, hyperstition, 2:17:36.560 --> 2:17:40.800 Delta myself talk about magic through the Internet quite a 2:17:40.800 --> 2:17:42.800 bit and how it combines with cultural theory, which is 2:17:42.840 --> 2:17:48.279 relevant to this conference. Let's move over to my left. 2:17:48.920 --> 2:17:51.680 I've been recruited along on this magical journey. I'm Ryan. 2:17:52.280 --> 2:17:57.400 I practiced the Vasriana, a Greco Egyptian magical practice, and 2:17:57.640 --> 2:18:03.560 also am involved in a Haitian voodoo house. Prior to that, 2:18:03.840 --> 2:18:06.640 I was also an academic for a good period of 2:18:06.680 --> 2:18:10.400 time where I studied Renaissance rhetoric and political theory, philosophy, 2:18:10.440 --> 2:18:13.600 and economics. So my contributions are going to be wide 2:18:13.640 --> 2:18:14.080 and varied. 2:18:15.480 --> 2:18:18.039 We've been making a lot of Hegel jokes this weekend, 2:18:18.680 --> 2:18:22.400 so many Hegel jokes our last crew member, which people 2:18:22.440 --> 2:18:25.520 may have heard before on various shows him. 2:18:25.560 --> 2:18:31.680 My name is Elaine, and I make art and research 2:18:32.600 --> 2:18:36.720 a lot of Renaissance script mark magic, and most of 2:18:36.760 --> 2:18:39.920 the things I do are a lot of idiosyncratic practices 2:18:40.000 --> 2:18:45.240 and based on various folk magic and chaos magic and 2:18:45.760 --> 2:18:46.760 Balkan folk magic. 2:18:47.080 --> 2:18:51.560 Before we continue the conversation between myself and my three guests, 2:18:52.040 --> 2:18:56.599 let's start by discussing the word a culture, the namesake 2:18:56.720 --> 2:19:00.320 of the conference. Obviously, this is a combination of the 2:19:00.360 --> 2:19:04.480 word ac cult and culture, and it describes how the 2:19:04.560 --> 2:19:09.440 two influence and possibly undermine one another. To read a 2:19:09.520 --> 2:19:13.879 quote from the person who originated the term, quote, a 2:19:13.920 --> 2:19:18.199 culture is a word that was inevitable during the hyperactive 2:19:18.280 --> 2:19:21.480 phase of the Temple of Psychic Youth in the nineteen eighties. 2:19:21.840 --> 2:19:25.720 We were casting around for an all embracing term to 2:19:25.800 --> 2:19:30.480 describe an approach to combining a unique, demystified spiritual philosophy 2:19:30.720 --> 2:19:34.720 with a fervent insistence that all life and art are indivisible. 2:19:35.680 --> 2:19:38.760 At any given moment, our sensory environment is whispering to us, 2:19:38.840 --> 2:19:44.240 telling us hidden stories, revealing subliminal connections. This concealed dialogue 2:19:44.280 --> 2:19:48.800 between every level of popular cultural forms and magical conclusions 2:19:48.920 --> 2:19:53.760 is what we named a culture unquote. That is from 2:19:53.959 --> 2:19:58.920 genesis b Puurage a musician, magician, artist, a cult leader, 2:19:59.280 --> 2:20:04.360 and hashtag slightly problematic queer icon. In the seventies, they 2:20:04.400 --> 2:20:08.840 started the band Throbbing Gristle, pioneered industrial music, and later 2:20:08.959 --> 2:20:12.480 started the Chaos magic organization, the Temple of Psychic Youth 2:20:12.879 --> 2:20:17.560 and its associated band Psychic TV. Though a culture did 2:20:17.560 --> 2:20:22.000 not just describe this sort of personal spiritual movement, it 2:20:22.080 --> 2:20:27.120 carried a strong offensive element targeted against society and perceived 2:20:27.200 --> 2:20:31.440 systems of control. Through their many projects, including Throbbing Gristle 2:20:31.440 --> 2:20:35.000 Psychic TV in the Temple of Psychic Youth, Purage utilized 2:20:35.200 --> 2:20:38.520 art and magical practice to conduct a quote unquote war 2:20:38.760 --> 2:20:42.520 on culture. Similar to another figure that will soon get 2:20:42.560 --> 2:20:47.039 to william S. Burrows, a culture describes a process of 2:20:47.120 --> 2:20:53.920 cultural osmosis. The occult bleeds into and morph's culture, affecting 2:20:53.920 --> 2:20:58.200 everything from pop culture to politics and philosophy. But as 2:20:58.240 --> 2:21:05.959 a part of this osmosis, the occult becomes increasingly commodified, knowable, safe, territory, marketable. 2:21:06.440 --> 2:21:10.760 The hidden occult loses its very essence of being hidden 2:21:11.840 --> 2:21:15.600 despite its use as a tool of attack against mainstream culture. 2:21:16.280 --> 2:21:21.000 Like most countercultural forms, the occult has been largely recuperated. 2:21:21.920 --> 2:21:26.680 Even creative works which our genuine explorations into the occult 2:21:27.240 --> 2:21:33.160 fall into this recuperation herodigm. They get turned into products 2:21:33.640 --> 2:21:38.199 consumed by mostly secular audience, like the works of Dueling Wizards, 2:21:38.320 --> 2:21:42.920 Allen Moore and Grant Morrison. Now some occultists rejoice, knowing 2:21:42.959 --> 2:21:46.560 that this wide exposure will influence more people to become 2:21:46.680 --> 2:21:50.920 interested in or adopt occult practices of their own, while 2:21:50.959 --> 2:21:56.160 others bemoan this dilution and commodification of what to them 2:21:56.280 --> 2:22:00.520 is an important spiritual practice. As the modern occult revival, 2:22:00.840 --> 2:22:04.360 along with a heavy helping hand of scientific advancement, de 2:22:04.600 --> 2:22:09.760 territorialized Christian hegemonic religion. Now the occult itself has been 2:22:09.840 --> 2:22:13.199 re territorialized, which is not to say that the occult 2:22:13.280 --> 2:22:16.440 is no longer a field of play, which is what 2:22:16.680 --> 2:22:21.199 this conference attempts to assert. Let's go back to the panel. 2:22:21.959 --> 2:22:24.440 In terms of the conference itself, as we'll get into later, 2:22:24.640 --> 2:22:30.800 the term a culture very specifically seems to be focused 2:22:30.840 --> 2:22:37.120 on the study of the interrelation of magical practice and 2:22:37.160 --> 2:22:42.280 the material aspects of occult culture and its influence and 2:22:42.320 --> 2:22:48.280 appropriation by wider society. So in terms of political projects 2:22:48.360 --> 2:22:51.360 or social projects, you can probably relate this. I think 2:22:51.360 --> 2:22:53.040 that it would be fair to say that it's something 2:22:53.120 --> 2:22:56.520 like culture jamming if we're looking for some familiar concepts 2:22:56.560 --> 2:22:59.360 for people to map onto. That is to say, a 2:22:59.400 --> 2:23:02.200 focus of way from simply solitary practice in the ways 2:23:02.240 --> 2:23:07.480 in which occult elements influence broader aspects of our society 2:23:07.680 --> 2:23:12.360 or are appropriated, whether that's through consumerist forces or through 2:23:12.480 --> 2:23:15.760 various artistic practices, or even the production of for example, 2:23:16.680 --> 2:23:20.960 film television movies. So I think that's a fair assessment 2:23:21.000 --> 2:23:23.080 of the impacts of a culture. 2:23:23.200 --> 2:23:26.520 And relevant to our discussion later. It's influenced in the 2:23:26.560 --> 2:23:30.680 tech sector and the emergence of AI, which the current 2:23:30.680 --> 2:23:34.920 manifestation of has some heavily occult origins regarding around a 2:23:34.920 --> 2:23:37.119 whole bunch of people in the nineties who were writing 2:23:37.200 --> 2:23:40.600 about AI as this as this occult project, and that 2:23:40.800 --> 2:23:44.920 influenced many a AI engineer and coder who are now 2:23:45.040 --> 2:23:48.240 building this stuff and it's becoming an ever present part 2:23:48.240 --> 2:23:50.720 of our lives, and the occultists now are trying to 2:23:50.720 --> 2:23:53.040 incorporate it into their own practice, which we will discuss 2:23:53.440 --> 2:23:57.160 in a sect. Any other notes on a culture as 2:23:57.200 --> 2:24:01.560 a concept or what this conference is doing with the concept. 2:24:01.720 --> 2:24:04.240 I think a culture is a concept is something that's 2:24:04.280 --> 2:24:08.080 basically been around as long as there's been magical practices, 2:24:08.240 --> 2:24:12.760 just looking at so much of things, like you know, 2:24:12.800 --> 2:24:15.640 the concept of the British Empire being invented by John 2:24:15.720 --> 2:24:19.240 d because of conversations he was having with angels. So 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:24.960 I think that naming it and calling it something is 2:24:25.320 --> 2:24:28.720 also very much felt like an attempt to sort of 2:24:28.720 --> 2:24:34.520 regain control over the ways that magical practice and greater 2:24:34.640 --> 2:24:38.560 society seem to influence each other, as opposed to a 2:24:38.800 --> 2:24:43.280 more unintentional way that they have been going back and 2:24:43.280 --> 2:24:46.840 forth for hundreds, if not thousands of years. 2:24:47.400 --> 2:24:49.840 There may also be one other aspect that's important for 2:24:49.879 --> 2:24:53.560 our American audience is given that we're recording this in Deutschland, 2:24:54.360 --> 2:25:01.199 this conference varies significantly from other American equivalent, or something 2:25:01.200 --> 2:25:04.840 that might be an American equivalent formerly Pantheaicon in and 2:25:04.840 --> 2:25:08.560 around San Francisco and San Jose specifically, or Paganicon in 2:25:08.600 --> 2:25:11.440 the Twin Cities, which specifically has much more of a 2:25:11.640 --> 2:25:18.360 new age neopagan reconstructionist, and so most academic discussion is 2:25:18.480 --> 2:25:22.800 viewed with some suspicion. And I'm hesitant to say that 2:25:22.840 --> 2:25:26.039 there's an anti intellectual trend because I don't necessarily think 2:25:26.080 --> 2:25:29.840 that's true. However, there is a resistance to the kind 2:25:29.840 --> 2:25:33.360 of academic styling that we saw very prevalent at this 2:25:33.480 --> 2:25:37.720 conference to talk about the occult more generally as an 2:25:37.800 --> 2:25:41.920 area of study in addition to just idiosyncratic practice or 2:25:42.040 --> 2:25:46.760 part of a larger social neopagan movement, which is again 2:25:47.080 --> 2:25:49.600 very much the focus of most US based conferences. 2:25:50.440 --> 2:25:56.199 As an editorial note, when we're talking about magic, to clarify, 2:25:56.800 --> 2:26:00.279 we're not talking about stage magicians. We're referring to magic 2:26:00.440 --> 2:26:05.080 with a K. That is, rituals and practices based on 2:26:05.240 --> 2:26:09.240 occult knowledge. It seeks to cause change in accordance with will, 2:26:09.520 --> 2:26:13.760 whether that's changed within yourself or in our consensus reality. 2:26:14.560 --> 2:26:19.000 Occult magical practice can also serve as a form of spirituality, mysticism, 2:26:19.400 --> 2:26:23.880 an alternative religious practice or an alternative to religion, with 2:26:23.920 --> 2:26:28.800 its beliefs in practice largely influenced by historical esoteric orders, 2:26:29.160 --> 2:26:34.879 mystery traditions, paganism, witchcraft, herbalism, astrology, hermantic philosophy, and alchemy, 2:26:35.280 --> 2:26:38.400 and all these things are influences. I'm not saying that 2:26:38.640 --> 2:26:42.160 the actual historic manifestations of these things are the same 2:26:42.840 --> 2:26:46.520 as the modern occult practices that are influenced by these things, 2:26:46.560 --> 2:26:50.160 because often these can be wildly varying, especially when you 2:26:50.160 --> 2:26:53.680 talk about things like witchcraft and alchemy, which have been 2:26:54.040 --> 2:26:58.560 misinterpreted or reconstructed into completely new forms than what the 2:26:58.640 --> 2:27:02.800 historical manifestation of them actually contained. But a lot of 2:27:02.959 --> 2:27:08.119 modern day ocultism has manifested as an individually mediated spirituality 2:27:08.560 --> 2:27:12.000 containing some of the group ritual or ritual aspects of 2:27:12.040 --> 2:27:17.840 something like Catholicism, but with the individuality of Protestantism. Many 2:27:18.120 --> 2:27:22.760 conferences have an opening ceremony, and as I previously mentioned, 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:27.120 a culture had an opening ritual. This accomplishes a very 2:27:27.120 --> 2:27:31.039 similar goal to any opening ceremony, to get attendees in 2:27:31.120 --> 2:27:34.080 a certain headspace, prepare them for the rest of the conference, 2:27:34.440 --> 2:27:36.640 and set a certain mood in which the rest of 2:27:36.680 --> 2:27:40.600 the events will kind of follow suit. The a culture 2:27:40.800 --> 2:27:46.240 opening ritual called upon the attendee's demiurgic capacity. How they 2:27:46.280 --> 2:27:49.680 are part of creating the reality of what this conference 2:27:49.840 --> 2:27:53.199 is and how it will continue for the next few days. 2:27:53.920 --> 2:27:57.240 Back to the panel. The framing of the ritual was 2:27:57.320 --> 2:28:01.720 a blindfolded woman holding the scales of balance, and each 2:28:01.920 --> 2:28:05.160 person put a intention for the week, or for the conference, 2:28:05.280 --> 2:28:08.720 or for themselves into a stone, which was handed out 2:28:08.720 --> 2:28:10.880 to each person who entered the ritual, and at certain 2:28:10.879 --> 2:28:13.840 point these stones were placed on to the scales of 2:28:14.000 --> 2:28:17.880 balance to create an equilibrium between the two sides of 2:28:17.920 --> 2:28:22.880 the scale, along with the you know, chanting, meditation, and 2:28:23.040 --> 2:28:24.240 a lot of incense. 2:28:24.320 --> 2:28:28.560 A significant deal of incense given that we were in 2:28:28.720 --> 2:28:33.840 a former German forge warehouse. The you know, billowing smoke 2:28:33.879 --> 2:28:37.080 that existed throughout the conference, from fires to incense to 2:28:37.360 --> 2:28:41.680 various other inflammatory items was rather impressive. But in terms 2:28:41.680 --> 2:28:46.320 of actual ritual design, it met several elements that I 2:28:46.360 --> 2:28:49.320 found to be rather impressive. One, it was encompassing of 2:28:49.400 --> 2:28:52.240 all of those elements that we would later expect to 2:28:52.280 --> 2:28:55.360 see in the actual body of the conference itself. In 2:28:55.440 --> 2:28:59.520 terms of like the artistic performances, the musical you know, 2:29:00.200 --> 2:29:04.440 metal golf music that was played, but also a very 2:29:04.480 --> 2:29:08.560 practical and open approach to ritual. It was highly inclusive. 2:29:08.720 --> 2:29:12.600 Everyone who was there participated. It did an exceptional job 2:29:12.640 --> 2:29:16.640 I felt of actually bringing setting intention and adding to 2:29:17.280 --> 2:29:19.240 I don't know, at risk of sounding to new age 2:29:19.280 --> 2:29:22.560 the vibrations that we all felt as we engaged and 2:29:22.600 --> 2:29:25.760 were present. The theatrical quality, I have to say, was 2:29:25.800 --> 2:29:27.160 also very much. 2:29:27.440 --> 2:29:28.200 Dark and spooky. 2:29:28.320 --> 2:29:30.160 Dark and spooky, but something to be admired. 2:29:30.200 --> 2:29:31.400 They did a very good. 2:29:31.320 --> 2:29:34.000 Job, definitely one of the more high effort rituals of 2:29:34.280 --> 2:29:37.800 the weekend in terms of the performative aspect, with there 2:29:37.800 --> 2:29:42.560 being little less than a dozen hooded cloaked figures stationed 2:29:42.560 --> 2:29:46.959 at different points, either holding specific positions in a meditative 2:29:47.000 --> 2:29:50.200 state for probably over half an hour, standing still in 2:29:50.240 --> 2:29:54.080 a decision that would become uncomfortable, and swinging, swinging incense, 2:29:54.200 --> 2:29:59.600 or holding torches or lights. Setting intention specifically is usually 2:30:00.160 --> 2:30:02.959 you talk to these people. The first step of any 2:30:03.040 --> 2:30:06.280 kind of magical working is setting your intention for what 2:30:06.320 --> 2:30:09.000 the work is supposed to do or accomplish in you 2:30:09.240 --> 2:30:13.920 or out into the world. Mirroring the opening ritual, Culture 2:30:14.000 --> 2:30:16.480 twenty twenty five little booklet has a few paragraphs on 2:30:16.640 --> 2:30:21.560 the concept for this conference, talking about the cosmic craftsman 2:30:21.600 --> 2:30:24.120 as the demiir to shapes matter and spirit alike who 2:30:24.120 --> 2:30:28.840 embodies creation and transformation, revealing both the light and the hidden, 2:30:29.240 --> 2:30:33.000 the shadowed face of the divine, as well as having 2:30:33.160 --> 2:30:38.240 cosmic balance and balancing destruction with creation and order and 2:30:38.320 --> 2:30:44.160 chaos and the hidden and the scene. The last paragraph 2:30:44.240 --> 2:30:47.000 in which I will read I think relates specifically to 2:30:47.480 --> 2:30:51.720 this show and the cultural political aspects quote. In the 2:30:51.720 --> 2:30:55.720 age of relentless acceleration, the craftsman becomes a figure of resistance. 2:30:56.160 --> 2:30:59.840 His patience and ritual discipline reclaims sacred time, restoring a 2:31:00.160 --> 2:31:03.160 them beyond the acceleration of modern life. A Culture twenty 2:31:03.200 --> 2:31:06.680 twenty five invites us to dwell in this threshold where creation, intuition, 2:31:07.000 --> 2:31:12.440 and the hidden divine converge, and with that we converge 2:31:12.560 --> 2:31:27.640 on an outbreak. Welcome back to the it could happen here, 2:31:27.720 --> 2:31:32.680 Spooky Special On the A Culture Conference. The figure name 2:31:32.760 --> 2:31:37.320 dropped the most throughout this conference might surprise some people, 2:31:37.600 --> 2:31:41.400 because I'm assuming most do not consider him to be 2:31:41.560 --> 2:31:45.959 an occultist or really a serious occult figure. The most 2:31:46.000 --> 2:31:50.160 discussed individual, at least in my experience of the conference, 2:31:50.760 --> 2:31:55.720 was not Alistair Crowley, John d someone like Lena Blovotsky, 2:31:56.440 --> 2:32:01.440 but in fact william S Burrows. And now we'll return 2:32:01.640 --> 2:32:07.760 to the panel to discuss the Burrosian current. Let's talk 2:32:07.840 --> 2:32:14.000 about what I would argue was the strongest current throughout 2:32:14.280 --> 2:32:20.199 this conference, what I'm gonna call the Burrosian current, relating 2:32:20.400 --> 2:32:25.200 to writer, beat poet, and mystic and occultists in his 2:32:25.360 --> 2:32:28.720 own right, William S Burrows and the magical technology that 2:32:28.760 --> 2:32:32.800 he either invented or popularized in the second half of 2:32:32.879 --> 2:32:36.320 the twentieth century and played a significant role in influencing 2:32:36.959 --> 2:32:40.360 successor movements such as chaos magic and even the work 2:32:40.480 --> 2:32:44.840 of the CCRU and Land and Fisher. The very first 2:32:44.959 --> 2:32:48.119 talk that we attended was specifically on Burroughs, and Burrows 2:32:48.680 --> 2:32:53.560 ghost haunted the remainder of the conference thereafter and introduced 2:32:53.600 --> 2:32:58.120 a few of the key tensions throughout the rest of 2:32:58.160 --> 2:33:01.879 the conference which we will discuss as specifically technology in AI. 2:33:02.800 --> 2:33:06.920 So our first talk by castro Opstrop, who I believe 2:33:07.040 --> 2:33:09.560 was Swedish, one of those. 2:33:09.440 --> 2:33:11.800 He was working at the University of Copenhagen. 2:33:11.840 --> 2:33:15.119 The University of Copenhagen certainly Scandinavian of some flavor of variety, 2:33:15.600 --> 2:33:19.360 focused on William S Burrows and Brian Geyson, I think 2:33:19.360 --> 2:33:22.240 that it's important, and I appreciated this claim on the 2:33:22.280 --> 2:33:26.879 outset that they argued that both Geyson and Burroughs are 2:33:26.920 --> 2:33:31.560 actually closer to the late Surrealists rather than to the 2:33:31.600 --> 2:33:35.160 beat poets generation which we typically associate them with, which, 2:33:35.800 --> 2:33:39.880 interestingly enough, I made both of these figures far more 2:33:39.879 --> 2:33:43.480 compelling to me my understanding of them. I mean, despite 2:33:43.520 --> 2:33:46.320 my familiarity with the cut up method, and you know, 2:33:46.360 --> 2:33:48.680 several of the things that Burrows had written, I always 2:33:48.720 --> 2:33:52.520 considered them far more beat and therefore less less of 2:33:52.600 --> 2:33:56.480 interest to me specifically. But this proximity to the Surrealists, 2:33:56.520 --> 2:34:00.680 especially the late latter Surrealists, I found particularly compelled, and 2:34:00.720 --> 2:34:03.200 I think that brings us to the real focus of 2:34:03.240 --> 2:34:07.520 this talk was Burrows's cut up method and another book 2:34:07.520 --> 2:34:10.560 that he published on the Third Mind, which gave way 2:34:10.600 --> 2:34:15.359 to the latter discussions on artificial intelligence and large language models. 2:34:15.959 --> 2:34:21.040 So Burrows definitely popularized the cut up method, which Geyson originated, 2:34:21.120 --> 2:34:24.440 but Burroughs changed its different forms of manifestations to various 2:34:24.680 --> 2:34:27.000 mediums of art like the tape recorder and his own 2:34:27.080 --> 2:34:30.640 writings and just words and language. And I guess the 2:34:30.680 --> 2:34:33.039 reason why I think talking about this current is important 2:34:33.040 --> 2:34:36.840 to start. Is also revolves around this idea of magic 2:34:36.959 --> 2:34:38.960 as this form of like resistance or this like a 2:34:39.000 --> 2:34:43.600 culture jamming practice, which Burrows framed his own work in 2:34:43.640 --> 2:34:45.840 his like a you know, work that could we could 2:34:45.879 --> 2:34:49.600 just describe as like esoteric or inspired byesoterism or achieving 2:34:49.680 --> 2:34:55.439 esotericals is specifically for this cultural infusion to to disrupt 2:34:55.560 --> 2:34:59.680 mainstream culture in some capacity, to go against the one 2:34:59.760 --> 2:35:03.640 God universe, sometimes in an anarchic way, sometimes in a 2:35:03.640 --> 2:35:07.640 libertarian way. There's a mix of a mix of like 2:35:08.440 --> 2:35:11.160 motivations that play here, same thing with like Robert Anton Wilson, 2:35:11.200 --> 2:35:14.080 which I'm sure you've heard Robert Evans talk about before. 2:35:14.800 --> 2:35:18.520 These were contemporaries. These guys were friends and operating under 2:35:18.640 --> 2:35:24.800 like similar goals of disrupting culture through these techniques which 2:35:24.840 --> 2:35:29.400 they thought literally like disrupted the linear flow of culture 2:35:29.480 --> 2:35:32.480 or the mechanisms of control such as like language and 2:35:32.800 --> 2:35:37.320 linear time, which later gets developed on by Land and Fissure. 2:35:38.280 --> 2:35:41.200 Yeah, I think looking at some of my notes, some 2:35:41.280 --> 2:35:43.720 of the things that stuck out to me, especially in 2:35:43.800 --> 2:35:46.360 view of the fact that the other classes going on 2:35:46.400 --> 2:35:49.959 at the time began with Alistair Crowley, but we're diving 2:35:50.000 --> 2:35:54.760 into a lot of more classical and historical magical traditions. 2:35:55.200 --> 2:35:58.360 Was that language can shape reality, which is something that 2:35:59.000 --> 2:36:01.720 would also be held by a lot of the classical 2:36:01.920 --> 2:36:06.240 magical ideas that sound and image have a cult power, 2:36:06.320 --> 2:36:09.440 which is very true in a lot of magical traditions 2:36:09.480 --> 2:36:13.840 dating back to the Pickatrix and more ancient texts, and 2:36:14.280 --> 2:36:17.880 that tech available at the time can be a magical instrument, 2:36:17.920 --> 2:36:22.600 which the tech available currently and for William Burrows is 2:36:22.720 --> 2:36:27.280 very different than classical tech, but is something that has 2:36:27.320 --> 2:36:30.080 been done for a very long time as well. What 2:36:30.240 --> 2:36:34.000 really changes is stepping out of the idea of a 2:36:34.040 --> 2:36:37.720 linear representation of it and into something that could be edited, 2:36:37.800 --> 2:36:44.039 cut and reprogrammed, specifically using technology that allowed that as 2:36:44.040 --> 2:36:48.320 opposed to something that you're trying to control solely through 2:36:48.840 --> 2:36:52.840 say more spiritual magical acts. It's something that you can 2:36:52.879 --> 2:36:53.720 do with a tape recording. 2:36:53.840 --> 2:36:55.680 And this is like you know, based on forms like 2:36:55.720 --> 2:36:59.959 social engineering and the manipulation of the reproduction of reality, 2:37:00.120 --> 2:37:03.760 which Burrows believes language plays a key role in, even 2:37:03.760 --> 2:37:05.800 though I might disagree with him in a few ways 2:37:05.840 --> 2:37:08.560 on like the nature of like a language as a 2:37:08.879 --> 2:37:11.760 as a human concept versus this like alien concept which 2:37:11.760 --> 2:37:15.800 it's like infected to human delta. You should explain what 2:37:15.879 --> 2:37:17.640 the cut up method is. 2:37:18.120 --> 2:37:23.679 Yes, well, the name itself kind of is self explanatory, 2:37:24.200 --> 2:37:28.680 but the idea of being essentially too thick any form 2:37:28.720 --> 2:37:32.680 of texts or writing, cut up the words or pieces 2:37:32.680 --> 2:37:35.440 of sentences, jumble them up in a hat or a 2:37:35.440 --> 2:37:39.400 bucket or whatever, and then kind of like play a 2:37:39.440 --> 2:37:45.240 jigsaw puzzle with language, reshifting sentences into new ideas and 2:37:45.360 --> 2:37:49.800 new forms of poetry, especially which I'm just looking at 2:37:49.840 --> 2:37:52.240 my own cut ups right in front of me. 2:37:52.440 --> 2:37:56.400 To force like randomized combinations of the word that you 2:37:56.480 --> 2:37:59.400 would not choose to combine on your own volition, and 2:37:59.440 --> 2:38:02.080 seeing why that sort of thought that generates what're kind 2:38:02.120 --> 2:38:05.560 of meaning can be constructed through that combination exactly. 2:38:06.120 --> 2:38:07.959 We're on some of the first cut ups done with 2:38:08.120 --> 2:38:11.600 books and just making holes, cutting out words and seeing 2:38:11.640 --> 2:38:14.120 the other words that would appear underneath, and if new 2:38:14.160 --> 2:38:19.520 meaning would arise through the surprise combinations. 2:38:19.320 --> 2:38:22.000 Words from like the future or the past presenting themselves 2:38:22.040 --> 2:38:24.480 into a current present within the book. 2:38:24.640 --> 2:38:24.879 Yeah. 2:38:25.000 --> 2:38:27.200 I think one of the Boroughs quotes is when you 2:38:27.200 --> 2:38:29.720 cut into the present, the future leaks out, which. 2:38:29.560 --> 2:38:31.680 Is related to the concept of time sorcery that was 2:38:31.680 --> 2:38:34.640 talked about towards the end of that discussion. I think 2:38:34.680 --> 2:38:37.560 another element to the cut up method that's important, especially 2:38:37.600 --> 2:38:41.240 as it was framed in this a culture context, is 2:38:41.320 --> 2:38:44.160 as the we quoted from the or as I wrote 2:38:44.200 --> 2:38:47.120 this quote down from the actual lecture itself. Reality is 2:38:47.160 --> 2:38:52.200 made of words, images, and vibrations, and sounds and images 2:38:52.440 --> 2:38:57.120 have occult power, and therefore these sounds and images and 2:38:57.280 --> 2:39:02.800 words can be marshaled or used, edited, cut through, rearranged 2:39:03.320 --> 2:39:06.520 for the purposes of reprogramming. It's fascinating because I think 2:39:06.520 --> 2:39:11.200 that this really is something that carries through to the 2:39:11.760 --> 2:39:16.360 whole conference, and not just the Burrow's method, but what 2:39:16.440 --> 2:39:20.880 this Burrow's method or the Barosian current of the conference. 2:39:21.280 --> 2:39:23.959 It seems that there was a problematic I mean, we 2:39:24.000 --> 2:39:26.400 started basically with Dari Da, and we ended with Dari Da. 2:39:26.800 --> 2:39:30.119 We with discussions of like critiques of the master narrative 2:39:30.200 --> 2:39:32.880 that we get from you know, Deluze and Leotard and 2:39:32.959 --> 2:39:36.280 Baudriard and these people. But the goal of this cut 2:39:36.400 --> 2:39:40.640 up method was to rewrite the master narrative. So again 2:39:40.720 --> 2:39:44.200 back to that concept of culture jamming. As Ger said, 2:39:44.480 --> 2:39:47.920 this concept of the one God universe, this cut up 2:39:47.959 --> 2:39:54.640 method is meant to interrupt the linearity of words of language, 2:39:54.720 --> 2:40:00.560 that is a process of control. So I issue with 2:40:00.600 --> 2:40:03.960 this concept of language as a virus because that implies 2:40:04.000 --> 2:40:07.040 that it's a foreign body, and I mean it's true 2:40:07.120 --> 2:40:08.840 post structuralists. I guess that I am there is no 2:40:08.920 --> 2:40:11.240 outside to language, and I think that that's actually something 2:40:11.280 --> 2:40:15.000 that shines through in this third mind concept. 2:40:15.640 --> 2:40:19.160 As two people work together on something, there's a composite 2:40:19.280 --> 2:40:22.760 mind that like emerges and affects the work is the 2:40:23.440 --> 2:40:24.119 concept there. 2:40:24.480 --> 2:40:27.800 So when two people collaborate, a third mind or intelligence 2:40:27.840 --> 2:40:32.760 communicates with you through the revelation of the new that 2:40:33.000 --> 2:40:36.199 was already present. And I think that that's really important 2:40:36.360 --> 2:40:39.720 to point out because it's not as though there's this 2:40:40.480 --> 2:40:44.080 outside thing. The implication is from this method is that 2:40:43.959 --> 2:40:48.200 the new reveals itself through this process that's already present 2:40:48.240 --> 2:40:50.960 in language. Because this is a question that I had 2:40:51.000 --> 2:40:54.720 throughout is that if language is this foreign entity that 2:40:54.879 --> 2:40:58.840 dominates us through control, and the method itself is language, 2:40:59.440 --> 2:41:02.320 then how are we not just re I mean, I 2:41:02.320 --> 2:41:04.240 guess it's a kind of inoculation. If we have a 2:41:04.360 --> 2:41:06.520 you know, a theory of language that is based in 2:41:07.280 --> 2:41:10.760 you know, what what do we call this? What is 2:41:10.800 --> 2:41:13.360 it that we all just got during COVID kevin fever? No, no, 2:41:13.480 --> 2:41:15.480 the things that we inject into our body that created 2:41:15.480 --> 2:41:20.400 the indo vaccines? There we go, that's the ticket inoculations. 2:41:20.000 --> 2:41:22.039 Not all, not all of us got vaccines. 2:41:23.080 --> 2:41:23.800 Okay, care. 2:41:25.520 --> 2:41:30.480 You heard it here first vaccine did not know where 2:41:30.560 --> 2:41:31.520 was it going with this? Okay? 2:41:31.640 --> 2:41:34.080 Speaking of methods of speaking of methods of control. 2:41:35.120 --> 2:41:35.800 I mean a lot of it. 2:41:35.959 --> 2:41:41.440 The new just came out there. Wait just one moment, Sorry, Elane. 2:41:42.080 --> 2:41:45.400 I likened this to this process of dialectics. But that's 2:41:45.440 --> 2:41:48.400 because I couldn't shut up about Hagel the entire time 2:41:48.440 --> 2:41:52.600 we were there, because I don't think enough occultists are 2:41:52.720 --> 2:41:55.560 talking about Hegel. Why is no one talking about Hegel? 2:41:55.640 --> 2:41:57.280 Everyone should be talking about Hegel. 2:41:58.640 --> 2:42:00.640 I mean, as fun as it is to think about this, 2:42:00.720 --> 2:42:04.360 like third mind as like an egg grigor figure, which 2:42:04.440 --> 2:42:06.720 we've we've mentioned before, is like it's like a group 2:42:06.760 --> 2:42:11.039 thought form, like a being or a force that is 2:42:11.240 --> 2:42:16.119 generated through through multiple people believing in it. You make 2:42:16.200 --> 2:42:18.760 up an imaginary friend in a way, that's what of 2:42:18.800 --> 2:42:24.119 a severtre, but true in a grigoras as a is yeah, 2:42:24.840 --> 2:42:26.959 of a form of thought that they gained its own, 2:42:27.520 --> 2:42:29.880 like an autonomy and becomes kind of, you know, like 2:42:30.160 --> 2:42:31.680 a like a little tiny. 2:42:31.400 --> 2:42:32.039 God, I guess. 2:42:32.560 --> 2:42:36.000 Or they also combined the third mind idea to like 2:42:36.120 --> 2:42:40.039 network consciousness. The one last thing I will say on 2:42:40.040 --> 2:42:42.640 this before we get to like the AI aspect, I guess. 2:42:42.680 --> 2:42:47.160 On this culture jamming nonlinearity is the concept of the 2:42:47.240 --> 2:42:53.000 circuit jump, which was playing back words from from politicians 2:42:53.040 --> 2:42:57.039 in different contexts as a sort of like a Uno 2:42:57.520 --> 2:43:00.640 reverso psychic attack, which I don't know if that actually 2:43:00.680 --> 2:43:04.440 works considering the current's political situation, but this is certainly 2:43:04.600 --> 2:43:08.880 a tactic to which I have employed many such cases, 2:43:10.080 --> 2:43:12.800 and we see a lot of people attempt attempt to 2:43:13.440 --> 2:43:15.840 do this, and I think there are certain figures who 2:43:15.840 --> 2:43:19.760 have their own very strong magical force field protecting them, 2:43:20.120 --> 2:43:23.640 which has been pretty evident through the past ten years, 2:43:23.680 --> 2:43:27.120 including the President of the United States. But as a 2:43:27.120 --> 2:43:30.560 as a circuit jump is playing something from the wrong 2:43:31.200 --> 2:43:34.800 the wrong time in a different context as a as 2:43:34.840 --> 2:43:38.120 a form of attack. The most famous conversion of this, 2:43:38.160 --> 2:43:40.240 which isn't necessarily for political ends, so this was for 2:43:40.280 --> 2:43:45.160 personal ends. It's the Burroughs cafe incident, which I've been 2:43:45.200 --> 2:43:48.400 a fan of for years, in which he was slighted 2:43:48.400 --> 2:43:50.240 by a cafe so then he started recording. 2:43:50.320 --> 2:43:52.879 All that happened was they changed their menu and he 2:43:52.879 --> 2:43:55.800 couldn't order the one food that he ordered every day. 2:43:55.879 --> 2:43:57.520 There's been some menus that have changed that I would 2:43:57.520 --> 2:44:02.000 consider us using this tactic where he recorded sounds from 2:44:02.040 --> 2:44:05.320 from outside of like people talking or arguing, or walking 2:44:05.320 --> 2:44:08.920 by or plates dropping, and then played them back outside 2:44:08.920 --> 2:44:11.920 of the cafe for a series of months until the 2:44:11.959 --> 2:44:16.600 cafe closed. And this is like the funniest, the funniest 2:44:16.720 --> 2:44:20.680 form of this sort of magical obsession, because this really 2:44:20.720 --> 2:44:22.800 is just a crazy guy playing loud sounds in front 2:44:22.840 --> 2:44:25.959 of a cafe until they close. I mean it worked, 2:44:26.320 --> 2:44:29.440 of yeah, playing back sounds of you know, arguing, fighting, 2:44:29.959 --> 2:44:35.040 plates is smashing, which would probably create a negative aura 2:44:35.480 --> 2:44:39.040 around around this building. But that is that is the 2:44:39.080 --> 2:44:42.080 most most funny of Burrows the circu jump moment. Although 2:44:42.120 --> 2:44:45.440 I mean burrows life is full of these humorous and 2:44:45.959 --> 2:44:47.879 sometimes worrying anecdotes. 2:44:48.640 --> 2:44:50.959 There's one other thing that stuck out to me. Given 2:44:52.280 --> 2:44:55.400 what a lot of the other talks in that space 2:44:55.480 --> 2:44:58.920 ended up dealing with, along with AI and stuff, was 2:44:58.959 --> 2:45:03.160 really the speaker talking a lot about the fact that 2:45:03.560 --> 2:45:08.480 for Burros and Geyson, the reproduction of reality is how 2:45:08.600 --> 2:45:11.560 control occurs. And so the goal was to manipulate the 2:45:11.600 --> 2:45:14.840 reproduction of reality, because if you can manipulate the reproduction 2:45:14.879 --> 2:45:19.840 of reality, you are also manipulating reality itself, which I 2:45:19.879 --> 2:45:22.520 don't think anyone went into nearly as much, but is 2:45:22.560 --> 2:45:25.800 something that we're seeing with say even the Republican Party 2:45:25.879 --> 2:45:29.760 releasing deep fake videos of Democratic politicians. 2:45:30.120 --> 2:45:34.480 Yeah, and this is something our materialist friend does talk about, 2:45:34.600 --> 2:45:37.760 is how there's a quote from some neo cons about 2:45:37.760 --> 2:45:41.200 how like Democrats just have to kind of like you know, 2:45:41.400 --> 2:45:46.200 react to reality versus the Republicans who generate it, and 2:45:46.240 --> 2:45:48.240 they like decide what reality is. And you can see 2:45:48.240 --> 2:45:50.760 this with all of the sort of moral panics which 2:45:50.760 --> 2:45:53.320 have spread across the United States and around the world 2:45:53.640 --> 2:45:57.160 the past few years, whether that's gender ideology, with it's immigration, 2:45:57.200 --> 2:45:59.600 whether that's this non existent crime wave, or it is 2:45:59.600 --> 2:46:02.960 a genuine like creation of reality. And then this this 2:46:02.959 --> 2:46:05.720 this goes into you know, the Burrows ideas later get 2:46:05.720 --> 2:46:10.119 developed by a group of academics and occultists that formed 2:46:10.160 --> 2:46:14.800 the c c r U. This included say Plant nick Land, 2:46:14.840 --> 2:46:18.160 who then turned to the dark side, and uh the 2:46:18.560 --> 2:46:22.200 since past Mark Fisher, who put a name to some 2:46:22.240 --> 2:46:25.760 of this sort of phenomenon called the hyperstition, which is 2:46:26.280 --> 2:46:28.360 Robert has talked about before in the show. But it 2:46:28.440 --> 2:46:31.120 is it is a self fulfilling prophecy. It is a 2:46:31.160 --> 2:46:34.920 fiction that becomes true through the creation of the fiction 2:46:35.040 --> 2:46:38.680 and the dissemination of this fiction. And this is part 2:46:38.760 --> 2:46:42.280 of how reality can get formed, is through these falsehoods 2:46:42.280 --> 2:46:47.480 that that through through repetition and dissemination, become self manifest. 2:46:48.480 --> 2:46:50.440 The thing about that, though, is that the high perstitional 2:46:50.440 --> 2:46:54.840 model itself requires to the acceptance of the idea that 2:46:55.240 --> 2:46:56.120 everything is a fiction. 2:46:56.480 --> 2:47:00.200 Yes, like well yeah, I mean a lot of those 2:47:00.240 --> 2:47:03.120 things go through a process like this, yes, yes, yes, 2:47:03.600 --> 2:47:08.360 but doing doing such a thing like intentionally and like offensively, right, 2:47:08.400 --> 2:47:10.400 which is which is the idea that we're discussing here 2:47:10.440 --> 2:47:13.640 in like a political context. Is this this this offensive 2:47:13.720 --> 2:47:17.920 reality formation where you literally decide what is real and 2:47:18.040 --> 2:47:21.640 like what isn't. And you know, if you have hundreds 2:47:21.640 --> 2:47:24.600 of millions dollars in like a news company at your disposal, 2:47:24.800 --> 2:47:26.080 this can become easier. 2:47:26.640 --> 2:47:29.000 Are you saying that media companies are currently cutting up 2:47:29.040 --> 2:47:31.200 reality to shape it in the image of the people 2:47:31.200 --> 2:47:32.800 who fund them. 2:47:33.440 --> 2:47:37.720 Yeah, yeah, I mean they are. They are much. It's 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:40.520 it's funny because like occultists, I think, are the people 2:47:40.560 --> 2:47:42.039 who are often. 2:47:41.800 --> 2:47:43.880 The clips are you going to use from the conference? 2:47:43.920 --> 2:47:48.000 And I will later in my written work, But I 2:47:48.040 --> 2:47:52.160 think on that note, I think occultists are a class 2:47:52.200 --> 2:47:55.640 of people who are maybe the worst at doing magic, 2:47:58.160 --> 2:48:00.360 because the people that are really good at this sort 2:48:00.360 --> 2:48:04.000 of thing are perhaps way better at the occult element 2:48:04.080 --> 2:48:06.920 of hiding their their you know, awareness of what they 2:48:06.959 --> 2:48:09.000 are doing, because they at a lot of them know 2:48:09.080 --> 2:48:11.400 what they're doing. That you just actually keep it a 2:48:11.560 --> 2:48:14.959 more cultic, whereas the magicians will not shut the fuck 2:48:15.080 --> 2:48:17.840 up because there's always a there's always a new book 2:48:17.840 --> 2:48:18.240 to sell. 2:48:18.840 --> 2:48:21.480 That was an excellent segue to an ad break, Laye. 2:48:21.560 --> 2:48:23.200 Thank you for that, and now a word from our 2:48:23.240 --> 2:48:36.600 sponsors on this note, though, Gary, I agree with you 2:48:36.640 --> 2:48:40.360 completely As a former academic and just a healthy level 2:48:40.360 --> 2:48:45.000 of skepticism going into any magical conference. I sat down, 2:48:45.080 --> 2:48:48.160 I listened and I've been to enough conferences listening to 2:48:48.720 --> 2:48:54.320 magicians attempt to map on rather poorly magic onto a 2:48:54.760 --> 2:48:57.959 cultural figure, and I think Burrows is really unique here. 2:48:58.000 --> 2:49:00.560 But my academic pretense was to sit here and to 2:49:00.640 --> 2:49:03.480 listen and think about, you know, language as a pharmicon, 2:49:03.680 --> 2:49:07.160 think about darry Da Delouze, Baudrard Leotard when they're discussing 2:49:07.240 --> 2:49:11.000 the master narrative or rewriting the master narrative. But what's 2:49:11.120 --> 2:49:14.240 unique about Burrows and why I gave up that you know, 2:49:14.400 --> 2:49:17.240 academic mapping of philosophy and asking myself, why are we 2:49:17.280 --> 2:49:20.000 having this conversation. We could just go read these texts 2:49:20.200 --> 2:49:22.840 they talk about similar things. But the point is is 2:49:22.879 --> 2:49:26.000 that those texts talk about similar things. And what's unique 2:49:26.000 --> 2:49:28.720 about Burrows is that he's actually doing the doer. He's 2:49:28.760 --> 2:49:31.680 a doer. This is fundamentally the difference between the vida 2:49:31.720 --> 2:49:34.720 activa and the vita contempt the taiva. Like I'm thinking 2:49:34.760 --> 2:49:37.160 in terms of philosophers. And it took me half of 2:49:37.200 --> 2:49:39.240 this talk to be like, no, he's actually doing shit. 2:49:39.440 --> 2:49:40.760 As soon as we get out to like, you know, 2:49:40.840 --> 2:49:43.280 him actually standing out in front of the cafe and 2:49:43.480 --> 2:49:46.080 doing this. He's not just developing a method, but by 2:49:46.160 --> 2:49:48.760 virtue of the fact that he's inviting other artists, like 2:49:48.840 --> 2:49:52.400 the slides upon slides that we saw of him, you know, 2:49:52.560 --> 2:49:55.840 working with new machines that he was creating and trying 2:49:55.920 --> 2:49:59.600 these things. He was actively involved in this practice, which 2:49:59.640 --> 2:50:06.039 again makes them far more magical than most occultists. Don't 2:50:06.040 --> 2:50:07.480 come for me absolutely. 2:50:08.520 --> 2:50:14.320 AI specifically be discussing debates and uses of generative AI 2:50:14.520 --> 2:50:17.200 in this conference because the last A Culture conference was 2:50:17.240 --> 2:50:20.560 in twenty twenty three, as these large language models and 2:50:20.680 --> 2:50:26.160 image generation platforms were just just starting to gain popularity 2:50:26.200 --> 2:50:28.560 and now they have a stranglehold over at the stock 2:50:28.640 --> 2:50:33.360 market and many people's imagination. The first, I guess real 2:50:33.400 --> 2:50:37.440 debate around AI happened as the three of you stayed 2:50:37.480 --> 2:50:41.480 to listen to a panel after Willie Mesburrough's panel, as 2:50:41.520 --> 2:50:45.520 well as a Austin OsmAnd Spare panel, a proto cast 2:50:45.560 --> 2:50:47.920 magician from the twentieth century. It was a contemporary of 2:50:47.920 --> 2:50:52.920 Alistair Crowley. I left to go listen to a mathematical 2:50:53.600 --> 2:50:59.280 thelemic ontology talk, which was probably less interesting than the panel. 2:51:00.120 --> 2:51:02.720 Hear you guys talk about the debates around AI and 2:51:02.760 --> 2:51:05.519 how they emerged in this panel, and then also juxtasing 2:51:05.520 --> 2:51:08.160 that to the different forms of like AI in discussions 2:51:08.240 --> 2:51:10.920 or an AI that dominated a large part of the 2:51:10.959 --> 2:51:11.800 rest of the conference. 2:51:12.040 --> 2:51:15.360 Well, actually AI came up because the initial discussion question 2:51:15.560 --> 2:51:17.200 for the panel was what does it mean to talk 2:51:17.240 --> 2:51:21.120 about art as magic in the digital era? So everyone 2:51:21.200 --> 2:51:25.400 was very specifically being asked to discuss the differences between 2:51:26.680 --> 2:51:29.400 the creation process is magic when you can use AI, 2:51:29.440 --> 2:51:33.200 when you can use large language models to just generate things, 2:51:33.280 --> 2:51:37.960 and if the generative method using AI was at all 2:51:38.000 --> 2:51:42.080 related to say, the cut up method or other things. 2:51:42.200 --> 2:51:45.560 So that was the initial conversation that began that whole panel. 2:51:46.000 --> 2:51:48.480 Well, and that was certainly a topic that was begged 2:51:48.480 --> 2:51:51.520 by the other two talks that we didn't really discuss. 2:51:51.920 --> 2:51:58.440 The Austin Osman spare was about automatic drawing. So this 2:51:58.560 --> 2:52:03.600 conception and of you know, this drawing that is coming 2:52:03.680 --> 2:52:07.160 from the outside, coming from the subconscious, coming from within, 2:52:07.800 --> 2:52:11.640 with all within one line. But more than that, it 2:52:11.680 --> 2:52:15.280 was a very traditional kind of European nineteen seventies lecture. 2:52:15.120 --> 2:52:17.520 You know, you had a lovely Italian man who stood 2:52:17.560 --> 2:52:19.199 in the front that was ready to smoke a cigarette 2:52:19.400 --> 2:52:23.760 while trying to get through, you know, a very well formulated, 2:52:24.200 --> 2:52:27.840 well argued essay, while a series of images presented to 2:52:27.920 --> 2:52:31.680 us behind him that covered an overview of artists that 2:52:31.720 --> 2:52:34.640 are doing very similar things. He argued, exists in a 2:52:34.680 --> 2:52:40.320 similar kind of vein and the occurrences of not just 2:52:40.400 --> 2:52:45.160 magical tropes, but cultural influences that happen independently, so artists 2:52:45.160 --> 2:52:48.640 all over the world. The third talk by I believe 2:52:49.360 --> 2:52:54.120 Kate Lady, Yeah, the ritual transformation and hybridity in Leonora 2:52:54.160 --> 2:52:57.560 Carrington's Judith, which was a stage production which happened in 2:52:57.600 --> 2:53:00.800 Mexico City, I believe so he had a few pictures 2:53:00.800 --> 2:53:05.280 of this, but Leonora Carrington's art very specifically has to 2:53:05.320 --> 2:53:07.920 do with this like hybrid of like animals and mythical 2:53:07.959 --> 2:53:11.920 figures and creatures, and the stage production was incredibly intense. 2:53:12.520 --> 2:53:15.560 I really appreciated this talk a lot. But then focus 2:53:15.640 --> 2:53:19.240 on talking about you know, generative artificial intelligence and these 2:53:19.320 --> 2:53:22.000 large language models and the role of art or what 2:53:22.000 --> 2:53:25.280 it means to do art in this era was related 2:53:25.360 --> 2:53:29.039 to this idea of the third mind, of automatic drawing, 2:53:29.240 --> 2:53:32.480 of this concept of hybridity, of this like transformative or 2:53:32.520 --> 2:53:37.280 this discovering of the new through a synthetic putting together 2:53:37.400 --> 2:53:44.440 of different elements or images, words, sounds, costumery, these kinds 2:53:44.440 --> 2:53:46.560 of things, so that it was a natural question to lead, 2:53:46.600 --> 2:53:49.800 but the audience members took it in a very strange 2:53:49.840 --> 2:53:52.760 direction that I would like you all to talk about. 2:53:53.480 --> 2:53:57.720 I mean, the initial question was really that people started 2:53:57.760 --> 2:54:03.640 asking after the panel was proposed, was so, what did 2:54:03.640 --> 2:54:06.760 the panelists think about ai art? Do the panelists think 2:54:06.800 --> 2:54:09.600 aiart is magic? Do the panelists think that ai art 2:54:09.879 --> 2:54:13.480 is channeling? Do the panelists think that, you know, putting 2:54:13.520 --> 2:54:16.080 a prompt and a language model is the same as 2:54:16.480 --> 2:54:20.360 doing some sort of trans state automatic writing. There was 2:54:20.400 --> 2:54:23.640 a lot of variations on functionally that all of the 2:54:23.680 --> 2:54:27.120 panelist's reaction was no, it's not, and a lot of 2:54:27.120 --> 2:54:30.760 them did not immediately really want to even dive into 2:54:30.800 --> 2:54:33.600 that topic. And we're very annoyed at the question. 2:54:33.760 --> 2:54:37.400 That's actually not true because I got triggered almost immediately 2:54:37.480 --> 2:54:40.760 because it was our first speaker that responded not to 2:54:40.800 --> 2:54:43.240 that first question, but to the second question. And the 2:54:43.280 --> 2:54:46.080 second question had to do with the role of technology 2:54:46.120 --> 2:54:50.640 and whether we see that there's a possibility for these tools, 2:54:50.920 --> 2:54:54.800 you know, as a technology, a techne in magical practice, 2:54:55.160 --> 2:54:58.840 and our first speaker's reaction was to sit back and 2:54:59.440 --> 2:55:03.200 give us a tentative yes to the tech, to the 2:55:03.320 --> 2:55:04.880 tech that's core to AI. 2:55:05.040 --> 2:55:07.960 They were like, their initial rerection was still also no. 2:55:08.680 --> 2:55:12.360 But yes they they indeed got there, but it was 2:55:12.440 --> 2:55:15.560 unclear at first, and I was a little raw about it, 2:55:15.600 --> 2:55:18.720 given that seemed completely contrary to the talk that you 2:55:18.720 --> 2:55:21.760 know that he had mentioned before. There was a question 2:55:22.000 --> 2:55:24.320 about NFTs. Do you remember this question? 2:55:25.080 --> 2:55:29.160 Oh, I tried to put it immediately out of my head. 2:55:29.280 --> 2:55:30.359 Yes, that was the fact. 2:55:30.200 --> 2:55:35.000 That it started with, like, well, NFTs failed because people 2:55:35.120 --> 2:55:39.800 like weren't ready to embrace the blockchain as a generative 2:55:40.280 --> 2:55:43.200 idea for making art, as opposed to the fact that 2:55:43.840 --> 2:55:46.200 why would I own an NFT if I can screenshot 2:55:46.200 --> 2:55:46.680 the picture? 2:55:46.840 --> 2:55:50.599 Yeah, Well, it was this idea that like NFTs themselves, 2:55:50.600 --> 2:55:53.480 were part of this breaking up of the control process, 2:55:54.440 --> 2:55:59.520 the linearity of money and financial systems, that somehow it 2:55:59.560 --> 2:56:02.080 was related to the cut up method. It was one 2:56:02.120 --> 2:56:04.760 of those questions that was a narrative before it finally 2:56:04.800 --> 2:56:07.560 got to your question that really just invited the readers 2:56:07.560 --> 2:56:10.640 to respond. There were others that talked about this too, 2:56:10.640 --> 2:56:13.920 and related their own personal experience to the generative AI 2:56:14.080 --> 2:56:17.280 process that you know, they approach AI not with the 2:56:17.320 --> 2:56:20.200 expectation that will provide sense, but it'll almost have this 2:56:20.600 --> 2:56:24.160 oracular or again this they related it to the third mind, 2:56:26.480 --> 2:56:30.600 this idea that again you and the AI come together 2:56:30.640 --> 2:56:34.160 and somehow reveal the new which I at this point 2:56:34.200 --> 2:56:35.280 was absolutely seething. 2:56:35.720 --> 2:56:35.920 Yeah. 2:56:35.920 --> 2:56:37.840 I think the closest actually that we had to some 2:56:37.959 --> 2:56:42.760 really like someone even trying to approach it was asking about, 2:56:43.320 --> 2:56:47.440 if you're making this art, if you're generating these new things, 2:56:47.879 --> 2:56:51.680 does it matter that corporations are controlling the algorithm by 2:56:51.680 --> 2:56:55.440 which you're doing so, which started to touch on some 2:56:55.600 --> 2:56:58.600 of the problems, but still was definitely relying on the 2:56:58.640 --> 2:57:02.560 base assumption that using a large language model to produce 2:57:02.680 --> 2:57:06.080 stories or art, that you're interacting with something else that's 2:57:06.120 --> 2:57:08.560 actually capable of creating at all. 2:57:08.840 --> 2:57:11.520 And to her credit, my girl Kate Lady, who was 2:57:11.560 --> 2:57:14.160 talking about Leonora Carrington, the one that seemed to be 2:57:14.440 --> 2:57:17.600 kind of tangentially separate from the other two but the 2:57:17.680 --> 2:57:20.560 hybridity really made it was the one that just gave 2:57:20.600 --> 2:57:23.600 us a great straight Marxist answer of like, no, this 2:57:23.640 --> 2:57:26.640 is bullshit. Let's actually look at the material implications as 2:57:26.640 --> 2:57:29.920 to where this is coming from and the environmental costs 2:57:30.080 --> 2:57:34.560 of running these programs of server farms, the destruction of 2:57:34.640 --> 2:57:40.160 space of you know, liveable areas throughout the United States. 2:57:40.440 --> 2:57:42.560 That these are questions that we need to ask and 2:57:42.600 --> 2:57:45.640 are not separate from these questions of magic. So I 2:57:45.720 --> 2:57:48.280 really shout out to her. I appreciated that response because 2:57:48.280 --> 2:57:50.560 it was instant, and it was it was heated. 2:57:51.080 --> 2:57:54.200 It is also, like I mean, from my perspective, it's 2:57:54.200 --> 2:57:57.520 also a labory she write, because these large language models 2:57:57.560 --> 2:58:04.160 and generative AI just scrape like so much data that 2:58:04.160 --> 2:58:09.119 that's like writing from real artists and created by real. 2:58:09.000 --> 2:58:10.600 Like painters and whatever. 2:58:11.000 --> 2:58:17.280 And it is the appropriation of human labor to shit 2:58:17.360 --> 2:58:22.440 out some advertising. Essentially, that is like my main well, 2:58:22.480 --> 2:58:26.920 aside from all the ecological and the political issues with it, 2:58:26.959 --> 2:58:30.600 it's like very much that labor angle to it that 2:58:31.000 --> 2:58:31.640 frustrates me. 2:58:32.640 --> 2:58:35.640 Well, in the context of the talk, it's really important 2:58:36.080 --> 2:58:38.160 to then ground And this is the comment that that 2:58:38.240 --> 2:58:41.240 I made that the panel broadly seemed to agree with, 2:58:41.280 --> 2:58:43.880 although I didn't really leave them much opportunity to disagree 2:58:43.920 --> 2:58:47.480 with me. I mean, you're right, Thank you. 2:58:47.520 --> 2:58:47.840 Go on. 2:58:49.600 --> 2:58:52.920 So this Burrow's concept of the third mind, this book 2:58:52.959 --> 2:58:56.520 that he wrote, right, when two minds collaborate, a third 2:58:56.640 --> 2:59:03.320 mind or intelligence communicates with you, again, not about creating 2:59:03.440 --> 2:59:08.359 the new, but about revealing itself in what was already present. 2:59:08.560 --> 2:59:12.840 Yes, but the idea is that you have to have two. 2:59:12.720 --> 2:59:17.000 Minds in order to get this dialectical third mind that 2:59:17.120 --> 2:59:20.920 was inherent in the conditions, the situation, the language of 2:59:20.959 --> 2:59:27.520 the two. When one interacts with any form of large 2:59:27.600 --> 2:59:31.440 language model or chat GBT, I in my mind and 2:59:31.480 --> 2:59:33.959 with what I carry sit in front of a computer 2:59:34.520 --> 2:59:39.160 and type my input. That's one mind. Can you tell 2:59:39.160 --> 2:59:40.280 me where the second is? 2:59:42.200 --> 2:59:45.120 Because even if you're cutting up a book, there's a 2:59:45.200 --> 2:59:47.240 mind in the book. There's a story, there's an actual 2:59:47.320 --> 2:59:50.000 thing there, there's a thing that you are interacting with 2:59:50.280 --> 2:59:54.480 that were thoughts that were produced by someone that you 2:59:54.520 --> 2:59:59.320 are cutting up. You are not just scraping the toilet 2:59:59.360 --> 3:00:01.440 bowl of humans production. 3:00:02.360 --> 3:00:04.800 But even if we're going to be generous and say 3:00:04.840 --> 3:00:07.600 that these large language models are the ones that are 3:00:07.600 --> 3:00:10.320 doing the cut up process and you are secondary or 3:00:10.680 --> 3:00:13.080 tertiary or even further down the line to it, I 3:00:13.080 --> 3:00:17.840 mean it doesn't involve a human intelligence at that point. 3:00:18.200 --> 3:00:22.240 So just in terms of the you know, the Barosian current, 3:00:22.800 --> 3:00:27.560 it's just not a third mind. It's the material conditions 3:00:27.560 --> 3:00:30.680 are such that it is not and cannot be a 3:00:30.720 --> 3:00:31.440 third mind. 3:00:32.120 --> 3:00:34.400 Where I would like to take this discussion is actually 3:00:34.480 --> 3:00:36.879 the very next talk that I attended as part of 3:00:37.480 --> 3:00:40.480 a three talk series called the Politics of Taro, and 3:00:40.760 --> 3:00:44.080 the specific one that I think continued on this line 3:00:44.120 --> 3:00:47.160 of thought and even stuff like automatic writing was from 3:00:47.400 --> 3:00:52.920 Icon to Index by Thomas Leak, the Generative Logic of Taro, 3:00:53.720 --> 3:00:56.879 in which he discussed I will have to check his 3:00:57.280 --> 3:01:00.240 name later, but discussed an author in the eighty who 3:01:00.320 --> 3:01:02.840 was trying to use Taro as a way to remove 3:01:03.040 --> 3:01:06.840 the human element of writing, try to create an automatic 3:01:06.959 --> 3:01:11.520 story using the tarot archetypes assembled in a randomized shuffling 3:01:12.200 --> 3:01:15.400 to generate a story based on the linkages between each 3:01:15.440 --> 3:01:18.879 of the cards and remove his own agency and directing 3:01:19.120 --> 3:01:21.840 where the story goes except for trying to bridge each 3:01:21.920 --> 3:01:28.360 card one to another. And the presenter was was discussing 3:01:28.520 --> 3:01:32.199 if this bears any similarity to like generative text models. 3:01:32.800 --> 3:01:37.000 The presenter said no. Presenter said, no, this actually is 3:01:37.040 --> 3:01:41.840 not like llms, which purely operate on a people pleasing 3:01:42.400 --> 3:01:47.720 probabilistic capacity to follow one word after another in accordance 3:01:47.760 --> 3:01:50.880 with whatever the prompt of the person who's operating the 3:01:51.560 --> 3:01:55.440 AI wants it to generate. Though the presenter stated that 3:01:55.640 --> 3:01:57.800 this author who was using Tarot probably would have loved 3:01:57.920 --> 3:02:01.040 using an LLM to try to pomplish this goal of 3:02:01.040 --> 3:02:03.000 his trying to access kind of like a form of 3:02:03.040 --> 3:02:06.080 automatic writing similar to Mike austn Osman's Bear, but without 3:02:06.160 --> 3:02:09.080 human input. The shuffling of the cards and forcing the 3:02:09.120 --> 3:02:12.240 human brain to make connections between these archetypes still contains 3:02:12.240 --> 3:02:15.960 a creative human process based on randomness in the shuffling 3:02:16.000 --> 3:02:21.440 of the deck versus the people pleasing probabilistic generative text 3:02:21.840 --> 3:02:28.520 that lms produce. This concludes the first episode of My 3:02:28.959 --> 3:02:33.760 Culture twenty twenty five coverage. In part to releasing Sunday Night. 3:02:34.240 --> 3:02:40.120 The panel will discuss digital technomancy, traditional magical practice, and 3:02:40.200 --> 3:02:43.840 why people are doing occult practice in twenty twenty five. 3:02:45.000 --> 3:03:14.240 See You on the Other Side. 3:03:03.200 --> 3:03:08.040 No, Yep, yep, it's it could happen here. 3:03:08.720 --> 3:03:15.240 Electile Disorder Executive Disorder, which is our weekly newscast which 3:03:15.280 --> 3:03:18.279 we've been doing all year, so we should we should 3:03:18.320 --> 3:03:19.360 know what it's called by now. 3:03:19.600 --> 3:03:22.560 Yeah, that's why I'm so good at doing it naming it. 3:03:23.520 --> 3:03:23.760 Yep. 3:03:24.360 --> 3:03:27.120 This show covers what's happening in the White House, the 3:03:27.240 --> 3:03:30.160 crumbling world, and what it means for you and me 3:03:30.200 --> 3:03:33.080 and everyone else. I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined 3:03:33.120 --> 3:03:35.480 by Robert Evans, James Stout, and Maya Wong, and we 3:03:35.560 --> 3:03:39.240 are covering the week of October twenty second to October thirtieth. 3:03:39.879 --> 3:03:40.160 Yep. 3:03:41.160 --> 3:03:43.880 So I think we should start off the bat by 3:03:44.160 --> 3:03:45.760 but the same thing we started off last week with, 3:03:45.840 --> 3:03:49.120 which is that as you're the Halloween. Yeah, well that 3:03:49.440 --> 3:03:53.160 so on the upside, Halloween woo spooky. On the downside, 3:03:53.200 --> 3:03:57.560 like forty million people lose, lose, there's no benefits the 3:03:57.680 --> 3:03:59.920 next day on Saturday. 3:04:00.080 --> 3:04:03.240 Yeah, but what's spookier than that. Look, one thing you 3:04:03.320 --> 3:04:06.920 can't say about the government is that they're not failing 3:04:06.959 --> 3:04:08.600 to celebrate the holiday. 3:04:09.600 --> 3:04:12.080 I am scared of the consequences. 3:04:12.480 --> 3:04:16.959 Yeah, stock up on the trigger, treater candy. I guess, 3:04:17.240 --> 3:04:18.720 steal as much candy as you can. 3:04:19.600 --> 3:04:21.080 You're going to need it to stay alive. 3:04:21.240 --> 3:04:23.120 See a group of children you run past him. 3:04:23.600 --> 3:04:25.520 Tick them. Oh they're kids. They can't stop you. 3:04:26.120 --> 3:04:28.200 Ye, hold it above your head. They can't reach it. 3:04:28.879 --> 3:04:32.240 No, it is. It is extremely grim, and there seems 3:04:32.240 --> 3:04:35.280 to be no indication from the Republicans of the Trump 3:04:35.280 --> 3:04:37.840 administration that they are going to work with the Democrats 3:04:37.840 --> 3:04:43.480 to resolve this without sacrificing healthcare for millions of Americans. 3:04:43.800 --> 3:04:47.360 Yeah. So, Gavin Newsom, a friend of the show, has 3:04:47.400 --> 3:04:51.400 deployed the California National Guard to assist food banks in 3:04:51.440 --> 3:04:51.840 the state. 3:04:52.440 --> 3:04:53.120 Oh my god. 3:04:53.680 --> 3:04:57.560 Yeah. Like, Look, the thing is, when you participate in 3:04:57.600 --> 3:05:00.800 the largest crackdown and protected First Amendments speech in recent history, 3:05:00.840 --> 3:05:02.920 you don't get to show up and hand out snacks 3:05:02.920 --> 3:05:07.040 and feel good. And many food banks, including some in 3:05:07.080 --> 3:05:10.640 the Bay Area, have refused the help of National Guard members, 3:05:10.920 --> 3:05:14.120 right because they have this very obvious concern that some 3:05:14.160 --> 3:05:17.080 people might be reluctant to go to places where the 3:05:17.120 --> 3:05:20.600 soldiers who are standing right next to all the different 3:05:20.640 --> 3:05:25.680 immigration agents in la are now working. And so this 3:05:25.720 --> 3:05:28.320 will have the opposite of a positive effect in those instances, right, 3:05:28.320 --> 3:05:29.720 people who are afraid to go to food banks and 3:05:29.800 --> 3:05:33.520 going to remain hungry. The consequences of this will be negative. 3:05:33.920 --> 3:05:36.920 The issue I don't think is a lack of person power. 3:05:37.240 --> 3:05:39.959 The issue is a lack of funding. The state has 3:05:40.120 --> 3:05:45.640 mobilized eighty million dollars in funds, but millions of Californians 3:05:46.000 --> 3:05:49.879 will be going hungry. And because of the failure of 3:05:49.959 --> 3:05:53.119 state authorities to stop federal authorities deploying the National Guard 3:05:53.200 --> 3:05:56.200 to LA and to other areas where immigration enforcement was happening, 3:05:57.000 --> 3:05:59.600 this stunt that Newsmen is going for could have very 3:05:59.640 --> 3:06:03.000 negative consequences for for food banks and for Californians who 3:06:03.000 --> 3:06:05.960 are hungry. Something sick and cool you can do if 3:06:06.000 --> 3:06:08.200 you have the means and the time is to pick 3:06:08.280 --> 3:06:10.080 up food from food banks for people who need it. 3:06:10.120 --> 3:06:12.279 A lot of people might be concerned. 3:06:12.320 --> 3:06:14.720 One of the biggest problems is how much food banks 3:06:14.760 --> 3:06:17.959 get food also through these programs, yeah. 3:06:17.640 --> 3:06:20.360 Yeah, yeah, I mean support. Yeah, food banks themselves are 3:06:20.360 --> 3:06:22.880 going to be struggling right now. So like I actually 3:06:23.360 --> 3:06:26.880 I did a thread on lib on blue sky. Where 3:06:26.720 --> 3:06:29.440 were you going to say? Lived Twitter and then corrected 3:06:29.480 --> 3:06:34.200 to blue Sky. I was going to say lib Sky. Yeah, yeah, 3:06:34.640 --> 3:06:38.119 I fact checked myself. It's blue wave Sky. 3:06:38.320 --> 3:06:38.800 There you go. 3:06:39.000 --> 3:06:41.400 You cannot get that past me. I could pick up 3:06:41.400 --> 3:06:42.200 on what you were doing. 3:06:42.640 --> 3:06:46.720 I garitone Davis like a viper struck. Yeah, at the 3:06:46.840 --> 3:06:50.400 core of my thought process. Yeah, So if you're on 3:06:51.080 --> 3:06:54.320 if you're on Skeeter, then you can you can find 3:06:54.320 --> 3:06:56.160 the threader made I link in the show notes with 3:06:56.680 --> 3:06:59.480 food banks that are looking for donations, and you can 3:06:59.520 --> 3:07:01.520 also had to find a food bank in your area 3:07:01.760 --> 3:07:04.320 if you're interested in that. But yet, this is a 3:07:04.360 --> 3:07:08.480 serious problem. The should be the biggest news story. I'm 3:07:08.480 --> 3:07:11.959 thinking particularly of those folks in Alaska right who found 3:07:12.000 --> 3:07:16.520 themselves as climate refugees due to this storm right which 3:07:16.520 --> 3:07:19.520 flooded their villages, and now not only facing the loss 3:07:19.560 --> 3:07:22.000 of their villages and their homes, but also all their 3:07:22.040 --> 3:07:24.800 cased food. These are people who often would have hunted 3:07:24.879 --> 3:07:28.760 or fished or relied on storing food for the winter, 3:07:29.320 --> 3:07:34.200 and now finding themselves unable to access federal benefits. 3:07:34.000 --> 3:07:37.520 Doing the thing that like. There's a representative. Clay Higgins 3:07:37.520 --> 3:07:42.520 of Louisiana made a tweet today blaming Snap recipients for 3:07:42.560 --> 3:07:45.080 not stockpiling a month's worth of food. 3:07:45.200 --> 3:07:46.520 Does he understand how this works? 3:07:46.600 --> 3:07:48.520 He said, Try to get your head wrapped around how 3:07:48.520 --> 3:07:51.120 many pantries you can stock with forty two hundred dollars, 3:07:51.360 --> 3:07:53.520 which is what people get on average per year. If 3:07:53.520 --> 3:07:57.080 he says, with Snap benefits in properly shopped groceries, any 3:07:57.120 --> 3:07:59.440 American who's been receiving forty two hundred dollars per year 3:07:59.440 --> 3:08:01.560 of free grocer reason does not have at least one 3:08:01.560 --> 3:08:04.600 month of grocery stock should never again receive Snap because wow, 3:08:04.640 --> 3:08:05.640 stop smoking crack. 3:08:05.959 --> 3:08:06.840 That's inhumane. 3:08:06.879 --> 3:08:08.840 Dealing with the shit that they talk about is almost 3:08:08.879 --> 3:08:13.800 pointless because they're all liars. But like, as like what 3:08:13.879 --> 3:08:16.400 you said, Like people are on Snap for a wide 3:08:16.480 --> 3:08:20.160 variety of reasons. They're largely employed. They're just not getting 3:08:20.240 --> 3:08:23.960 enough money to actually like survive and feed their family. 3:08:24.680 --> 3:08:29.480 And like the forty two hundred dollars a year for 3:08:29.640 --> 3:08:33.160 a family is not in fact enough to stockpile a 3:08:33.240 --> 3:08:34.600 huge quantity of food. 3:08:34.879 --> 3:08:38.520 No, it's not like it's remarkable how totach the people 3:08:38.520 --> 3:08:41.840 who make our laws off from Yeah, the working class experience. 3:08:42.040 --> 3:08:43.880 There is no way that guy knows how much of 3:08:43.879 --> 3:08:47.080 banana costs, No way, zero, Well. 3:08:47.000 --> 3:08:49.000 He has no idea. That man isn't shopped for himself 3:08:49.000 --> 3:08:50.080 in fucking twenty years. 3:08:50.440 --> 3:08:52.800 Yeah, yeah, that guy does not know how much it 3:08:52.840 --> 3:08:55.200 cost to buy mac and cheese for your kids. 3:08:55.400 --> 3:08:57.960 And obviously you know we hear we talk about storing food, 3:08:58.000 --> 3:09:00.480 about canning your own food, and there are things you 3:09:00.520 --> 3:09:03.000 can do even on a budget when you don't have 3:09:03.080 --> 3:09:06.200 much money to build a stockpile. And that's why I 3:09:06.320 --> 3:09:09.440 encourage people to pay attention to things like prices at 3:09:09.440 --> 3:09:11.800 the grocery store when things are a lot cheaper because 3:09:11.800 --> 3:09:14.280 they're in season, and learn how to do things like 3:09:14.360 --> 3:09:17.040 pressure can right and pickle different foods you want it, 3:09:17.040 --> 3:09:20.560 because there are ways that you can. And this is why, right, 3:09:20.600 --> 3:09:24.400 it's not because you should be doing that irresponsible, it's 3:09:24.440 --> 3:09:27.720 because we even when it comes to the social safety net, 3:09:27.959 --> 3:09:29.920 you know that we have what little of one that 3:09:29.959 --> 3:09:32.560 we have. You can't rely on it because at any 3:09:32.640 --> 3:09:36.560 given point it could become a fucking fucking football for 3:09:37.000 --> 3:09:40.600 Democrats and Republicans to fight over and go away. Right, Like, 3:09:41.240 --> 3:09:44.520 none of this stuff is reliable, which is why people 3:09:44.680 --> 3:09:48.000 ought to, if it's at all possible, be doing stuff 3:09:48.040 --> 3:09:50.640 like that, right, not because they should have to do that, 3:09:50.760 --> 3:09:54.039 but because you cannot rely on the government. 3:09:54.320 --> 3:09:54.520 Right. 3:09:54.600 --> 3:09:57.000 And I don't say that as like a critique of 3:09:57.080 --> 3:09:58.959 people or to like shit on people. It's just like 3:09:59.000 --> 3:10:00.840 it's a it's a fact. It's the fact that people 3:10:00.879 --> 3:10:03.480 need to increasingly accept because this is not going to 3:10:03.480 --> 3:10:06.680 be getting better in the long run. Yeah, let's talk 3:10:06.680 --> 3:10:07.600 about Graham Platner. 3:10:07.640 --> 3:10:12.560 All right, Oh god, I do so to touch politicians. 3:10:12.600 --> 3:10:15.720 A couple of weeks ago, James brought up Graham Plattner, 3:10:15.800 --> 3:10:20.320 who is running for Congress in Maine, and some ads 3:10:20.320 --> 3:10:22.360 that he had put out which were really and I 3:10:22.400 --> 3:10:25.520 still think are really good ads, good ads in terms 3:10:25.560 --> 3:10:28.800 of they were effective objectively. He raised a lot of money. 3:10:28.879 --> 3:10:31.200 He was leading in the polls prior to us. We'll 3:10:31.200 --> 3:10:33.600 talk about a bunch of scandals coming out. He's no 3:10:33.680 --> 3:10:35.760 longer leading, but he was doing very well for a while. 3:10:36.120 --> 3:10:39.600 So his campaign, the strategy that he was following, which 3:10:39.640 --> 3:10:42.920 was largely a mix of talking about and really pushing 3:10:43.000 --> 3:10:48.800 investments in social programs and particularly healthcare, and attacking the 3:10:48.800 --> 3:10:51.840 billionaire class in very stark terms. Talked about they need 3:10:51.840 --> 3:10:55.720 to effectively get rid of that as a group of people, 3:10:55.800 --> 3:10:59.520 like tax them out of existence. That's a popular you know, 3:10:59.760 --> 3:11:02.680 and a good thing to campaign on. And the success 3:11:02.720 --> 3:11:04.920 that he had early on is evidence that there's a 3:11:04.920 --> 3:11:07.720 lot of legs to talking about that kind of stuff, 3:11:07.760 --> 3:11:08.960 and the way that he didn't he talked about in 3:11:09.000 --> 3:11:11.880 a very combative way. Right, this guy was a former marine. Yeah, 3:11:12.080 --> 3:11:14.760 some sort of fisherman. I think whatever kind of he's 3:11:14.800 --> 3:11:17.800 like fish. I think it's an oyster farmer or some 3:11:17.879 --> 3:11:22.440 shit whatever. They have a the nonsense State, Sorry Maynites. 3:11:22.280 --> 3:11:26.080 They called maniacs. Technically I think they're called maners. That 3:11:26.240 --> 3:11:27.160 copy right Garrison. 3:11:27.480 --> 3:11:29.880 So he was coming across as a very like blue 3:11:29.879 --> 3:11:33.400 collar guy, right, like a very and kind of crude, 3:11:33.440 --> 3:11:36.240 but crewed in a like I'm a straight talker sort 3:11:36.280 --> 3:11:39.000 of guy. And that worked. That that was a good campaign, 3:11:39.040 --> 3:11:41.600 and we highlighted that because I think it struck you know, 3:11:41.680 --> 3:11:43.240 James is the one who brought it to our attention, 3:11:43.320 --> 3:11:45.000 but I think it struck all of us as, oh, yeah, 3:11:45.080 --> 3:11:48.480 this is a guy who was kind of doing talking 3:11:48.640 --> 3:11:51.599 to voters in a way that we wish more Democrats 3:11:51.680 --> 3:11:55.360 were right. And then in the last couple of weeks, 3:11:55.720 --> 3:11:58.959 oh god, so many scamps come out about this guy. 3:11:59.480 --> 3:12:01.160 The most well known of them as that for the 3:12:01.280 --> 3:12:03.280 last twenty years of his life he has had a 3:12:03.320 --> 3:12:08.840 totin cough tattooed over his pectoral that is the Death's Head. Now, 3:12:08.840 --> 3:12:12.039 it dates back before the Nazis. It was a niche. 3:12:12.120 --> 3:12:14.000 I don't know if this was the very first use 3:12:14.000 --> 3:12:15.640 of it, but the very first prominent use of it 3:12:15.680 --> 3:12:19.400 in military history was as the insignia for a unit 3:12:19.440 --> 3:12:23.560 called the Death'shead Hussars, which was an elite German cavalry unit. 3:12:24.400 --> 3:12:25.920 I mean, I'm sure I think they did still exist 3:12:25.920 --> 3:12:27.480 in World War One, but they were that was well 3:12:27.480 --> 3:12:31.520 past their prime. And it was then adopted by the SS, 3:12:31.600 --> 3:12:33.640 and it was worn by a number by a lot 3:12:33.680 --> 3:12:36.160 of guys in the SS, but it was specifically the 3:12:36.160 --> 3:12:39.560 insignia of a unit called the totenkof SS, which existed 3:12:39.600 --> 3:12:44.039 to guard concentration camps and death camps. So having one tattooed. 3:12:43.640 --> 3:12:46.000 On you bad, Yeah, not cool. 3:12:46.320 --> 3:12:49.480 Platner has said, basically, it was a dumb tattoo I 3:12:49.520 --> 3:12:52.240 got when I was young and just joining the Marine Corps, 3:12:52.360 --> 3:12:54.640 and I didn't know what it meant. And I am 3:12:54.680 --> 3:12:57.600 willing to believe that like a nineteen year old who 3:12:57.720 --> 3:13:01.080 joins the Marines would make a bad tattoo decision, because 3:13:01.120 --> 3:13:02.560 I have a lot of friends that were in the 3:13:02.560 --> 3:13:07.640 Marines and they all have bad tattoos, right, none of 3:13:07.680 --> 3:13:09.240 them have Death's heads. 3:13:10.240 --> 3:13:13.119 So you got it well in like Croatia drunk. 3:13:13.840 --> 3:13:17.039 Yeah right, and he was, he was hammered. 3:13:17.000 --> 3:13:19.320 And yeah, the probability of walking into a tattoo shop 3:13:19.360 --> 3:13:21.720 in Croatia and coming out with a Nazi tattoo is 3:13:21.800 --> 3:13:22.800 extremely high. 3:13:23.000 --> 3:13:25.480 Sure, Yeah, it's not low. 3:13:25.800 --> 3:13:28.400 Yeah, Yeah, they're on the flash seat for Friday the thirteenth. 3:13:29.120 --> 3:13:30.160 They probably are. 3:13:31.560 --> 3:13:33.360 If it had just come out that he'd had this 3:13:33.440 --> 3:13:35.119 for some period of time, being like, yeah, I got 3:13:35.160 --> 3:13:37.160 like I was hammered in Croatia and I got a 3:13:37.200 --> 3:13:39.640 fucked up tattoo and realized it and got it covered. 3:13:40.000 --> 3:13:43.400 I had it been like not a story, right, like 3:13:43.560 --> 3:13:47.000 man gets bad tattoos, dumb kid. But number one, he 3:13:47.080 --> 3:13:48.920 kept it until he got it covered in like the 3:13:49.000 --> 3:13:49.959 last week or so. 3:13:50.320 --> 3:13:52.920 Yeah, let me tell you that was a real piece 3:13:52.959 --> 3:13:54.199 of odd that he covered. 3:13:53.879 --> 3:13:58.280 It with, which is a wild choice to just keep 3:13:58.320 --> 3:14:00.600 it for that long. But also he and I had 3:14:00.640 --> 3:14:03.359 no idea until it like came out as a story 3:14:03.400 --> 3:14:06.560 because I forget what outlet, but some news outlet found 3:14:06.560 --> 3:14:08.240 out that he had it and was going to publish it, 3:14:08.280 --> 3:14:08.720 and I. 3:14:08.640 --> 3:14:11.880 Think his team told Pod Save America when he went 3:14:11.879 --> 3:14:13.760 on the PUD Save America pod. 3:14:14.040 --> 3:14:17.920 Yeah, yeah, but he had heard that there was opposition research. 3:14:18.040 --> 3:14:21.840 Yeah, yeah, because he had sent out to like another 3:14:21.879 --> 3:14:23.800 thing that he went on, like a picture of him 3:14:23.800 --> 3:14:28.320 with his shirt off, and they were like, wait, what, Like. 3:14:28.760 --> 3:14:30.040 There were a few of them floating around. 3:14:30.120 --> 3:14:30.760 Huh. 3:14:30.959 --> 3:14:32.920 If you've lived that kind of life, there's going to 3:14:32.959 --> 3:14:35.280 be pitches of you with the shirt off, you know, 3:14:35.480 --> 3:14:37.439 like the refusing to acknowledge. 3:14:37.520 --> 3:14:40.879 Yeah, I knew earlier in my life that it was 3:14:40.879 --> 3:14:43.680 a death's head and like there's reports from people who 3:14:43.760 --> 3:14:46.120 knew him that he called it a tote gough and 3:14:46.200 --> 3:14:46.920 joked about it. 3:14:47.360 --> 3:14:49.160 I didn't know that. I'll be clear. 3:14:49.440 --> 3:14:52.520 I don't actually think that Graham is a secret Nazi 3:14:52.879 --> 3:14:56.160 sleeper agent. I really don't. I think he's a guy 3:14:56.640 --> 3:15:00.600 with really questionable judgment, which is where he's and you know, 3:15:00.720 --> 3:15:04.400 to be very critical of his campaign. And yeah, I 3:15:05.120 --> 3:15:07.280 take a lot of issue with how he's responded to 3:15:07.320 --> 3:15:09.920 this because rather than again just kind of doing a 3:15:09.959 --> 3:15:13.200 MEA POPA, he's gone on the this is my enemies 3:15:13.200 --> 3:15:16.360 in the Democratic Party trying to silence me thing and 3:15:16.400 --> 3:15:20.400 a very weird coalition has propped up kind of around him, 3:15:20.440 --> 3:15:24.080 trying to argue that this is a circular firing squad 3:15:24.280 --> 3:15:27.320 kind of deal. Like there was a Jacobin article being 3:15:27.400 --> 3:15:29.480 like it's fucked up that people are going after Graham 3:15:29.480 --> 3:15:31.600 and the pod Save guys are defending him, like it 3:15:31.720 --> 3:15:35.200 is a weird coalition that's circling around this fella. 3:15:35.360 --> 3:15:37.840 What do you think that Joe Rogan of the Left meant? 3:15:38.120 --> 3:15:40.080 Vibes essays. 3:15:41.280 --> 3:15:43.520 We wanted a guy who took loads of steroids and 3:15:43.560 --> 3:15:45.440 didn't have problematic opinions. 3:15:46.080 --> 3:15:48.520 I'm never gonna say this in any other instance about 3:15:48.560 --> 3:15:51.840 Joe Rogan, but he wouldn't have gotten that tattoo because 3:15:51.840 --> 3:15:53.280 he knows what a death said. 3:15:54.640 --> 3:15:56.280 I don't know if he knew in like two thousand 3:15:56.280 --> 3:15:59.480 and seven or what. I think there's a very strong 3:16:00.000 --> 3:16:02.640 innate world where two thousand and seven, Joe Rogan is 3:16:02.680 --> 3:16:07.320 traveling at accidentally gets a god tattoo. 3:16:07.720 --> 3:16:10.360 It's not impossible. You're right, You're right. I guess I'm 3:16:10.400 --> 3:16:13.920 just assuming he's watched enough World War two documentaries to know. 3:16:14.080 --> 3:16:17.160 Yeah, but watching those while like smoking weeds, so he 3:16:17.200 --> 3:16:18.440 doesn't remember anything. 3:16:19.320 --> 3:16:22.680 That's fair. These are fair points. You're making Garrison. So 3:16:23.280 --> 3:16:25.600 a couple of surprising things about this, and this is 3:16:25.640 --> 3:16:28.120 not the only scandal that's kind of come out about 3:16:28.160 --> 3:16:31.199 him recently, but at number one, it did not immediately 3:16:31.440 --> 3:16:33.400 take a strong hit to his polling. This seems to 3:16:33.400 --> 3:16:36.920 be primarily just because a lot of voters aren't aware 3:16:36.920 --> 3:16:39.039 of it. Because in poles where they at where they 3:16:39.120 --> 3:16:42.960 informed people that he had a Nazi tattoo, his support 3:16:43.160 --> 3:16:47.600 drops dramatically by like thirty points. That said, he was 3:16:47.680 --> 3:16:50.039 leading until like two or three days ago, I think 3:16:50.160 --> 3:16:52.040 was the most recent poll that came out that had 3:16:52.040 --> 3:16:55.560 a main governor, Janet Mills, in the lead above him. 3:16:56.040 --> 3:16:58.560 We're not talking about the main race. This is we're 3:16:58.560 --> 3:17:01.800 still in the primary, right, so he's challenging Janet Mills 3:17:01.800 --> 3:17:02.439 for the primary. 3:17:02.640 --> 3:17:03.000 Sure. 3:17:03.080 --> 3:17:05.920 And yeah, at present, according to so called strategies who 3:17:05.920 --> 3:17:09.160 did a pole very recently and it's the most recent poll, 3:17:09.520 --> 3:17:12.680 Mills has forty one percent from likely voters and Platner 3:17:12.720 --> 3:17:15.640 has thirty six percent, although about a fifth of respondence 3:17:15.680 --> 3:17:21.560 are undecided. And yeah, this is a pretty dramatic upset 3:17:21.640 --> 3:17:24.720 because prior to the whole Nazi tattoo news coming out, 3:17:24.760 --> 3:17:27.320 Platner was leading Mills by about thirty four points. So 3:17:27.360 --> 3:17:29.560 this has gone from Platner looked to have it in 3:17:29.600 --> 3:17:33.200 the bag to it's pretty close. Mills is ahead, not 3:17:33.360 --> 3:17:36.360 by a lead that's so commanding that it's a definite thing. 3:17:36.600 --> 3:17:40.160 You know, a standard polling error could have them basically 3:17:40.200 --> 3:17:43.240 be neck and neck, and we all should know at 3:17:43.240 --> 3:17:45.760 this point how frequently that kind of stuff happens. 3:17:45.959 --> 3:17:48.000 Yeah, polling never wrong. 3:17:48.280 --> 3:17:50.800 But yeah, so I don't know. It's one of those. 3:17:51.120 --> 3:17:53.440 Somebody got angry at us on the subreddit, being like, 3:17:53.480 --> 3:17:56.080 I can't believe they're hiding that like this has happened, 3:17:56.200 --> 3:17:58.920 you know, with this guy that they endorsed like we 3:17:58.959 --> 3:18:02.840 did Endor seven Uber two like this, this shit was breaking. 3:18:02.920 --> 3:18:05.720 When we were recording the ed last week. We made 3:18:05.760 --> 3:18:08.160 like a reference about it, but not much had come out, 3:18:08.160 --> 3:18:09.920 and there certainly hadn't been time for us to really 3:18:09.920 --> 3:18:12.840 look into what was going on here. And it's not 3:18:13.280 --> 3:18:16.000 this is a main Senate primary, and this is not 3:18:16.160 --> 3:18:19.080 like the very top of our list of crucial things 3:18:19.120 --> 3:18:21.600 to hit the second it happens. We can wait on 3:18:21.680 --> 3:18:24.119 something like this to see how stuff's shaking out. 3:18:24.000 --> 3:18:24.520 A little bit. 3:18:24.959 --> 3:18:28.200 No one's voting yet, so It's not like we're influencing 3:18:28.280 --> 3:18:31.400 the election by not coming out or whatever. 3:18:31.760 --> 3:18:34.200 Yeah, like we only get to coup so much. We 3:18:34.240 --> 3:18:36.800 have one hour of like News round up show a week, 3:18:36.959 --> 3:18:40.320 and the Blue Sky Twitter drama about Grand Plannery is 3:18:40.360 --> 3:18:42.280 not as important as the fact that millions of people 3:18:42.320 --> 3:18:44.440 are losing their food this week. 3:18:44.760 --> 3:18:44.960 Now. 3:18:45.520 --> 3:18:47.280 One thing that is interesting, and I do think this 3:18:47.320 --> 3:18:49.080 is an important race just because of kind of what 3:18:49.160 --> 3:18:51.879 it says about what sort of strategies are working now 3:18:51.920 --> 3:18:55.160 and igniting the base, and what kind of stuff does 3:18:55.240 --> 3:18:57.560 matter in terms of scandals. I think there are some 3:18:57.600 --> 3:18:59.600 things that are really relevant here. One thing that is 3:18:59.600 --> 3:19:02.080 interesting to me is that, according to a poll, very 3:19:02.080 --> 3:19:04.560 recent poll the article came in October twenty sixth, twenty 3:19:04.600 --> 3:19:09.840 twenty five, majority of young Democrats still back Graham Platner 3:19:09.959 --> 3:19:12.959 even after the whole tattoo thing. And this is really 3:19:13.000 --> 3:19:16.200 interesting to me because the data shows that in general, 3:19:16.240 --> 3:19:20.080 among likely voters, his potential support plummets when people are 3:19:20.120 --> 3:19:23.400 made aware that he had the tattoo. But young Democrats 3:19:23.400 --> 3:19:25.840 are by far the group most likely to have become 3:19:25.879 --> 3:19:27.920 aware of it as soon as the story broke, because 3:19:27.959 --> 3:19:30.720 young people are much more online than older people, and 3:19:30.760 --> 3:19:34.320 among young people he's still well ahead, which I really 3:19:34.360 --> 3:19:37.520 just do think speaks more than anything to the strength 3:19:37.600 --> 3:19:40.119 of the rhetoric he has been using. The platform that 3:19:40.160 --> 3:19:42.920 he came out the gate with. It's and the rhetoric right, 3:19:42.959 --> 3:19:46.640 his combative rhetoric is really attractive to young voters, especially. 3:19:46.320 --> 3:19:49.039 Explain your generation to us Garrison, why you like this. 3:19:49.560 --> 3:19:52.640 I mean, there's a lot of stuff that the Zoron 3:19:52.720 --> 3:19:54.320 campaign kind of like ignited around. 3:19:54.480 --> 3:19:56.840 Yeah, you're right, exactly absolute rhetoric. 3:19:56.920 --> 3:20:00.560 And then you know, Sanders and AOC had their anti 3:20:00.640 --> 3:20:04.000 oligarchy tour, which I mean, we don't need to like 3:20:04.000 --> 3:20:07.480 debate like the use of like that term. But no, 3:20:07.520 --> 3:20:12.480 there isn't a huge frustration at the geriatric Democratic Party, 3:20:12.560 --> 3:20:15.440 and this sort of populist rhetoric is very popular among 3:20:15.480 --> 3:20:18.280 young people as it as it has been since the 3:20:18.360 --> 3:20:21.000 Sanders campaign in twenty sixteen. This isn't like new a 3:20:21.080 --> 3:20:25.959 revolutionary information. The fact that this guy has gotten to 3:20:26.160 --> 3:20:29.880 this point has gotten either past scandals or it's navigating 3:20:29.920 --> 3:20:34.040 through it. Despite his like you know, very questionable background 3:20:34.080 --> 3:20:39.199 and military and uh military private contracting, his like misogynistic 3:20:39.600 --> 3:20:42.600 Reddit posts which were unearthed as as like an attack 3:20:42.640 --> 3:20:45.880 against him, which I think he actually handled that scandal 3:20:45.959 --> 3:20:49.600 fairly well, using it as a parallel to chart his 3:20:49.840 --> 3:20:53.840 own political journey. So yeah, I can understand why a 3:20:53.879 --> 3:20:57.200 whole bunch of young people who are reading about this 3:20:57.400 --> 3:20:59.680 aren't gonna actually care at all about any of these 3:20:59.680 --> 3:21:02.400 stories and still vote for him because of what he's saying. 3:21:02.640 --> 3:21:04.360 Yeah, and I want to be clear, I didn't bring 3:21:04.440 --> 3:21:07.039 this up because it's bad even that, like young people 3:21:07.080 --> 3:21:09.360 are still supporting him. I think this is something that people, 3:21:09.560 --> 3:21:12.560 especially in the Democratic Party, who care about winning, And 3:21:12.600 --> 3:21:15.200 I think it's people on the left who are trying 3:21:15.200 --> 3:21:19.400 to look at what can we do to get more 3:21:19.480 --> 3:21:22.920 progressive and combative candidates who are going to do something 3:21:23.000 --> 3:21:27.039 both about the right and about the billionaire class. What 3:21:27.080 --> 3:21:31.080 can we do to actually like win. You should be 3:21:31.120 --> 3:21:33.840 paying attention to this because this this rhetoric works. 3:21:34.120 --> 3:21:37.560 Yeah, and because surely there's one other guy who can 3:21:37.600 --> 3:21:45.360 say these things enough. You can find one person who 3:21:45.400 --> 3:21:49.280 could use rhetoric, is good on camera and has not 3:21:49.440 --> 3:21:52.320 had a totalent CoV tattooed on their chest for almost 3:21:52.320 --> 3:21:53.039 twenty years. 3:21:53.120 --> 3:21:56.560 Yeah. And also the most wild part about this, I 3:21:56.560 --> 3:22:00.640 don't even think is that it's that this guy was 3:22:00.920 --> 3:22:04.560 in Blackwater, like so Eid's constell Us, but he calls 3:22:04.600 --> 3:22:05.279 it Blackwater. 3:22:05.640 --> 3:22:10.000 He was, yeah, that's the other scandals. Please, let's let's yeah. 3:22:10.480 --> 3:22:16.800 He deployed to Afghanistan for Blackwater in twenty eight their 3:22:17.000 --> 3:22:20.440 first shrug administration. No one at any point in this 3:22:20.520 --> 3:22:24.520 process went, hold on, wait, this guy went to fight 3:22:24.640 --> 3:22:27.959 in Afghanistan, like in twenty eighteen. 3:22:28.480 --> 3:22:34.080 Like, yeah, they prosecuted the guys from Nisar Square, Yeah, 3:22:34.120 --> 3:22:36.720 from the Sour Square massacre. Yeah, after the square, Like 3:22:37.040 --> 3:22:39.960 those people got prosecuted four years before that. 3:22:40.440 --> 3:22:42.920 And he joined Blackwater in twenty eighteen. 3:22:43.640 --> 3:22:45.840 And to be clear, because this is something James brought 3:22:45.879 --> 3:22:47.960 up when we talked about this in our chat previously, 3:22:48.400 --> 3:22:52.120 he didn't technically join Blackwater because Blackwater has changed its 3:22:52.200 --> 3:22:53.840 name and I think merged for a couple of countries. 3:22:53.879 --> 3:22:54.600 It was a culprit. 3:22:55.280 --> 3:22:58.039 But to be fair to me, yeah, he got all 3:22:58.160 --> 3:23:03.840 that Blackwater. He said, I worked for Blackwater. There's a 3:23:03.920 --> 3:23:06.680 way in which like, I'm okay with people fucking up 3:23:06.720 --> 3:23:09.240 if they acknowledge they funked up, right, Like, I'm okay 3:23:09.240 --> 3:23:11.480 with him saying I did this and it was wrong, 3:23:11.800 --> 3:23:14.360 So I left and I regret doing it. 3:23:14.480 --> 3:23:16.720 I mean that that is what he's saying, though it 3:23:16.760 --> 3:23:20.080 was specifically after this deployment. Yes, this is where he 3:23:20.120 --> 3:23:23.800 says that like this marked his like political coticalization or 3:23:23.840 --> 3:23:26.720 like yeah, during the path of like how he viewed 3:23:26.720 --> 3:23:30.439 his life in politics specifically was negative experiences during this deployment. 3:23:30.520 --> 3:23:33.800 Yeah, yeah, And I guess that is something I have 3:23:33.840 --> 3:23:36.920 really complicated opinions on because I'm I'm not and I 3:23:37.160 --> 3:23:38.640 really have a lot of issues with folks on the 3:23:38.720 --> 3:23:40.360 left who are like anyone who was ever in the 3:23:40.360 --> 3:23:46.359 military is forever and deeply like I think that's yeah, deeply, 3:23:46.560 --> 3:23:52.400 deeply unseerious and incredibly counterproductive. And I don't I think that, 3:23:52.560 --> 3:23:56.920 like it's good that someone can do something as fucked 3:23:57.000 --> 3:23:59.800 up as joined Blackwater and realize that they did a 3:23:59.800 --> 3:24:04.560 harleble thing and change. Maybe doing it in twenty eighteen 3:24:04.879 --> 3:24:07.360 is too recently for me to want him in Congress 3:24:07.480 --> 3:24:08.400 as a progressive. 3:24:08.480 --> 3:24:08.879 I don't know. 3:24:09.480 --> 3:24:11.760 Yeah, it was like that was it was like a 3:24:11.840 --> 3:24:14.280 decade after like he was one of the so he 3:24:14.320 --> 3:24:17.279 wasn't one of the like the torture guards. But no, no, 3:24:16.959 --> 3:24:19.080 like when he was a marine. He guard, He was 3:24:19.120 --> 3:24:20.600 like one of the guys he was like assigned to 3:24:20.680 --> 3:24:24.560 guard Aubu Grab. Yeah, I think, yeah, the torture scandal. 3:24:24.600 --> 3:24:26.280 But it's it's like it took you, it took you 3:24:26.400 --> 3:24:30.000 like a decade after that. Yeah, is that maybe the 3:24:30.000 --> 3:24:31.760 thing I'm doing is bad? Like I just I just 3:24:31.840 --> 3:24:32.520 oh god. 3:24:32.560 --> 3:24:35.039 Well yeah, And that's that's kind of like the because 3:24:35.040 --> 3:24:37.640 I don't, you know, I don't think having been stationed 3:24:37.680 --> 3:24:41.200 to guard a place where horrible thing like war crimes 3:24:41.200 --> 3:24:45.960 were committed necessarily damns you forever, because like you don't 3:24:46.040 --> 3:24:48.440 choose where you're stationed. A guard who knows when he 3:24:48.520 --> 3:24:51.840 became aware what was going on in the place he 3:24:51.920 --> 3:24:54.760 was guarding, But at some point he did and that 3:24:55.160 --> 3:24:57.240 wasn't like the moment where he was like, ah fuck, 3:24:58.000 --> 3:24:59.760 you know. And I again, I have a lot of 3:24:59.760 --> 3:25:02.160 friend I have friends who were with the very first 3:25:02.280 --> 3:25:05.720 infantry unit into Iraq, one of whom, as they were invading, 3:25:05.840 --> 3:25:07.840 was like, you know this is criminal, guys, right, you 3:25:07.840 --> 3:25:10.880 know we're breaking you know this is fucked up. You 3:25:10.920 --> 3:25:15.040 know this this war's bullshit. Pat Tillman was saying that, right, 3:25:15.240 --> 3:25:16.439 like Derd. 3:25:16.040 --> 3:25:20.200 The invasions, this guy ship out in twenty sixteen. 3:25:20.840 --> 3:25:23.000 Yeah, that's like it took him. 3:25:23.320 --> 3:25:26.519 I would it took him, manutes, it took him reasonably 3:25:26.600 --> 3:25:28.800 long time. And also when you read his interviews about it, 3:25:28.920 --> 3:25:30.000 he's like, I did it because it was. 3:25:29.959 --> 3:25:31.880 Fun, which is just like, that's that's honest. 3:25:31.920 --> 3:25:34.959 Yeah, it's honest. It makes me insane. 3:25:35.400 --> 3:25:38.160 Look, I mean, that's that's why people join the Marines, 3:25:38.240 --> 3:25:41.880 is they like money and or they're adrenaline jokies. 3:25:41.959 --> 3:25:44.560 Right, I'd rather he was honest about that shit. Actually, 3:25:44.560 --> 3:25:47.560 like I I am. It is just like distressing. 3:25:48.400 --> 3:25:51.920 I actually like that. And again I do kind of 3:25:52.040 --> 3:25:54.520 like because there's not a there's not a perfect answer 3:25:54.520 --> 3:25:56.920 as to like, well, when should you have had a 3:25:57.120 --> 3:26:01.000 change of heart about something like this before you can 3:26:01.080 --> 3:26:04.600 like be trusted as a political leader on the left. 3:26:04.640 --> 3:26:07.760 And I actually don't really know. I think I would 3:26:07.840 --> 3:26:11.039 be inclined to be like give him the benefit of 3:26:11.080 --> 3:26:15.200 the doubt on that stuff more if it weren't for 3:26:15.240 --> 3:26:15.520 the not. 3:26:16.760 --> 3:26:21.360 Yeah, play shift out with plug eighteen. 3:26:21.720 --> 3:26:25.359 Yeah, all those things together are kind of sketchy. 3:26:25.640 --> 3:26:28.519 Maybe do a couple of tours as a dog catcher first. 3:26:28.560 --> 3:26:31.280 Like, you know, I'm seeing a lot of because there's 3:26:31.280 --> 3:26:32.800 a whole lot of like, well, no one else who 3:26:32.879 --> 3:26:35.160 has a chance of winning in Maine is supporting the 3:26:35.200 --> 3:26:38.400 progressive policies he is. You know, you can't have it 3:26:38.440 --> 3:26:41.520 all be perfect or whatever he's you know, we should 3:26:41.560 --> 3:26:43.680 at least hope that he gets in and he does 3:26:43.720 --> 3:26:46.520 the things he's saying. And I guess, like, if he 3:26:46.560 --> 3:26:50.480 does get elected, and it's not the most likely thing 3:26:50.560 --> 3:26:53.160 right now, but it's certainly not impossible, I guess I 3:26:53.200 --> 3:26:55.960 hope he does the good stuff he says that he's done. 3:26:56.560 --> 3:26:59.080 I just have a lot less faith in that, given 3:26:59.200 --> 3:27:01.680 both what's coming and his reaction to it. 3:27:01.760 --> 3:27:05.320 Right, it's his reaction to it. It was really disqualifying, right, like, right, 3:27:05.440 --> 3:27:07.760 there's a world I guess I didn't know that he 3:27:07.840 --> 3:27:10.680 told people it was a total golf that's pretty fucking incriminating. 3:27:10.720 --> 3:27:13.600 But yeah, there's reports from people who have said that 3:27:13.680 --> 3:27:14.400 it's it's unclear. 3:27:14.480 --> 3:27:16.040 Okay, there's reports, got it. 3:27:16.240 --> 3:27:18.800 We don't know objectively, but people have talked to the 3:27:18.800 --> 3:27:20.840 press who knew him and said that he described it 3:27:20.879 --> 3:27:22.640 as a total cough to them several years ago. 3:27:22.760 --> 3:27:26.040 Okay, Yeah, if his response had been like, oh fuck, 3:27:26.520 --> 3:27:28.640 I didn't know let me get that covered up immediately. 3:27:29.200 --> 3:27:33.200 That's his response was so bad. To defend it and 3:27:33.240 --> 3:27:35.560 to be like there's a conspiracy against it. Really bad. 3:27:35.760 --> 3:27:38.800 It's that failure. And it also just shows like a 3:27:38.879 --> 3:27:41.039 lack of judgment and lack of ability to like be 3:27:41.200 --> 3:27:45.520 critical of his own actions, which is worrying. 3:27:45.720 --> 3:27:50.720 It shows the kind of Trumpian fancifulness that really worries me. 3:27:51.080 --> 3:27:53.000 Yeah, demnic Augay kind of thing. 3:27:53.080 --> 3:27:55.360 A lot of populists are like this, like this is 3:27:55.440 --> 3:27:58.840 this is a part of populist Yes, yes, I don't 3:27:58.879 --> 3:28:00.120 think you can fully decouple. 3:28:01.120 --> 3:28:07.279 That's probably true, Garrison. Yeah, that's probably true, But I 3:28:07.280 --> 3:28:09.240 I don't know. I'm not gonna tell you how to vote. 3:28:09.280 --> 3:28:11.840 I've made a habit of never telling people how to vote. 3:28:11.879 --> 3:28:15.720 So if you're in Maine, enjoy your mc lobster and 3:28:15.959 --> 3:28:17.960 do whatever your heart tells you. It's the right thing 3:28:18.080 --> 3:28:20.600 to do, my friend. But also, please don't eat a 3:28:20.680 --> 3:28:25.000 mc lobster there. It's clearly poisoned, you know. Avoid avoid 3:28:25.000 --> 3:28:26.800 a mc lobster's at all costs. 3:28:27.640 --> 3:28:28.880 Yeah, buy an oyster ins to it. 3:28:29.360 --> 3:28:34.000 The strongest endorsement Robert Ethans can make, is it not 3:28:34.280 --> 3:28:35.200 by a MC lobster. 3:28:36.440 --> 3:28:38.560 Avoid a MC lobster at all costs. 3:28:39.080 --> 3:28:41.360 If you're on the West coast, avoid shellfish, and in 3:28:41.400 --> 3:28:43.480 some months it will costs because you can get paralytic 3:28:43.600 --> 3:28:44.440 shellfish poisoning. 3:28:44.760 --> 3:28:47.720 Oh yeah, I mean some people, that's just basically getting 3:28:47.760 --> 3:28:48.800 free muscle relaxers. 3:28:48.879 --> 3:28:58.120 James's let's do it ad break for muscle at excerpts. Okay, 3:29:07.120 --> 3:29:11.360 all right, we are back. Can I do my Halloween 3:29:11.600 --> 3:29:16.200 ice Nazi? Sure Bevino segment? Is that how you say 3:29:16.200 --> 3:29:17.040 his name? Bavino? 3:29:17.600 --> 3:29:17.800 Greg? 3:29:19.400 --> 3:29:20.040 Yeah, Greg Green? 3:29:20.520 --> 3:29:23.199 It looks like a Bavino to me. So we're gonna 3:29:23.200 --> 3:29:26.800 talk about him playing dress up and how border patrol 3:29:27.200 --> 3:29:30.760 disrupted a Halloween parade. So last weekend, while conducting an 3:29:30.760 --> 3:29:34.360 immigration enforcement range, border patrol disrupted the root of a 3:29:34.480 --> 3:29:39.000 children's Halloween parade in Old Irving Park in Chicago, using 3:29:39.040 --> 3:29:42.080 tear gas and arresting several people, including two US citizens. 3:29:42.959 --> 3:29:45.720 A crowd gathered around after a border patrol arrested a 3:29:45.720 --> 3:29:48.040 thirty five year old construction worker who has lived in 3:29:48.120 --> 3:29:53.920 Chicago since he was four years old. Jesus neighborhood residents 3:29:54.040 --> 3:29:57.160 said that federal agents then deployed tear gas without warning 3:29:58.200 --> 3:30:02.600 that following Tuesday, the ARC attacked of Operation Midway Blitz. 3:30:03.280 --> 3:30:05.800 Greg Bavino appeared in a federal corps a part of 3:30:05.800 --> 3:30:09.640 a lawsuit alleging excessive force and violations of a tro 3:30:09.879 --> 3:30:13.760 restricting the use of tear gas and crowd control munitions. 3:30:14.160 --> 3:30:18.400 Bavino seems to be flagrantly violating this tro as he 3:30:18.560 --> 3:30:21.600 was photographed personally throwing a tear guest canister into a 3:30:21.600 --> 3:30:24.200 crowd in October twenty second during a raid on a 3:30:24.280 --> 3:30:28.440 laundromat and home depot. The DHS says that protesters were 3:30:28.440 --> 3:30:32.680 throwing rocks and Border Patrol issued warnings, though this account 3:30:32.720 --> 3:30:37.400 is contradicted by video of the incident. US District Judge 3:30:37.440 --> 3:30:41.160 Sarah Ellis told the Border Patrol chief quote, kids dressed 3:30:41.200 --> 3:30:44.720 in Halloween costumes walking to a parade do not pose 3:30:44.760 --> 3:30:48.280 an immediate threat to the safety of law enforcement officers. 3:30:48.320 --> 3:30:51.600 They just don't, and you can't use riot control weapons 3:30:51.600 --> 3:30:56.280 against them. Unquote. This tro requires that crowd control munitions 3:30:56.320 --> 3:30:58.480 may only be used as someone pose as an immediate 3:30:58.560 --> 3:31:02.080 threat to law enforcement agents instructed to give two verbal 3:31:02.080 --> 3:31:05.320 warnings before tear gas pepper spray can be deployed, and 3:31:05.440 --> 3:31:08.720 to wear body cams, badges, or visible ideas. This order 3:31:08.760 --> 3:31:11.520 was issued on October ninth to get an idea of how 3:31:11.560 --> 3:31:14.200 closely this is being followed. Lavino himself still is not 3:31:14.280 --> 3:31:17.800 where a body cam and told Judge ellis quote, I 3:31:17.840 --> 3:31:22.080 have not received a body worn camera nor the training unquote. 3:31:22.480 --> 3:31:22.680 Yeah. 3:31:23.200 --> 3:31:25.200 Body of Troll agents have generally, just to give some 3:31:25.200 --> 3:31:28.880 context here, not worn body worn cameras for a number 3:31:28.920 --> 3:31:31.640 of reasons. Firstly, they just don't want to. Secondly, no 3:31:31.720 --> 3:31:36.279 one's making them. Thirdly, they believe that it is possible 3:31:36.320 --> 3:31:39.920 for people to detect the bluetooth signal that the camera 3:31:40.040 --> 3:31:44.959 gives out and thus find them. This is something that 3:31:45.040 --> 3:31:48.240 is theoretically possible as best my research can tell. You 3:31:48.280 --> 3:31:50.199 can make your own judgment as to which those factors 3:31:50.280 --> 3:31:53.320 is weighing most heavily on their choice not to wear them, 3:31:53.360 --> 3:31:56.840 but that they have never been required as a group 3:31:57.080 --> 3:31:59.560 to wear body worn cameras all the time. 3:31:59.760 --> 3:32:02.520 Now this judge is trying to force them to. They're 3:32:02.640 --> 3:32:06.360 just refusing to follow the order. Even despite Bavino saying 3:32:06.400 --> 3:32:10.920 that ninety nine percent of agents have these cameras, which 3:32:10.959 --> 3:32:13.400 is bizarrely specific claim. 3:32:13.959 --> 3:32:16.640 Yeah, like, is he the one percent? 3:32:17.000 --> 3:32:23.160 Like, I guess it's like he's just so obviously lying. 3:32:23.240 --> 3:32:25.160 It's just oh god. 3:32:25.280 --> 3:32:27.879 Yeah, it's it's just it's lying. We I think we 3:32:28.040 --> 3:32:30.000 that should be enough to say. Yeah, I don't know 3:32:30.040 --> 3:32:31.640 if I said they never wear them. To be clear, 3:32:31.680 --> 3:32:35.800 they have gone forward and back on wearing them. But 3:32:35.840 --> 3:32:39.279 it was earlier this year that the specific security risk. 3:32:39.440 --> 3:32:41.760 They have access to the cameras. Yes, yes, they're just 3:32:41.760 --> 3:32:43.120 refusing to follow this order. 3:32:43.480 --> 3:32:43.680 Yeah. 3:32:44.120 --> 3:32:44.440 Yeah. 3:32:44.560 --> 3:32:44.760 Now. 3:32:45.200 --> 3:32:48.400 The same complaint that alleged that Vino threw a canister 3:32:48.520 --> 3:32:51.560 with their justification into this crowd also details an incident 3:32:51.600 --> 3:32:54.600 from the next day, October twenty third, where agents without 3:32:54.600 --> 3:32:58.199 wearing identification as required by the order, shot a protester 3:32:58.280 --> 3:33:00.720 in the neck with pepperball from five feet away, and 3:33:00.840 --> 3:33:04.320 while driving away, pointed a pepper ball gun and I'm 3:33:04.320 --> 3:33:07.000 gonna read from the complaint quote and then a real 3:33:07.080 --> 3:33:10.480 gun at declarant Chris Gentry, a combat veteran who was 3:33:10.560 --> 3:33:12.320 lawfully standing on the side of the road voicing his 3:33:12.360 --> 3:33:16.000 opposition as agents were driving by in their vehicles. The 3:33:16.120 --> 3:33:19.920 agent who pointed the real gun at mister Gentry's face said, 3:33:20.040 --> 3:33:27.520 quote bang bang, you're dead liberal unquote great, cool, anyway, 3:33:28.640 --> 3:33:32.320 plaintifs have requested bodycam footage of this incident, which has 3:33:32.400 --> 3:33:33.160 yet to be provided. 3:33:33.320 --> 3:33:34.960 Yeah, and I think it's worth noting that, I mean, 3:33:34.959 --> 3:33:37.800 they do this every single time there is any kind 3:33:37.800 --> 3:33:39.800 of protest, they do stuff like this. They've been pointing 3:33:39.800 --> 3:33:41.720 guns at people the entire time they've been here. 3:33:42.160 --> 3:33:44.960 They've been putting a lot of guns the past few months, 3:33:44.560 --> 3:33:46.039 as we have reported. 3:33:46.320 --> 3:33:46.959 Yes they have. 3:33:47.320 --> 3:33:49.840 Yeah, they they kill people, two people. 3:33:49.720 --> 3:33:51.800 They've shot more than two people. Yeah. 3:33:52.080 --> 3:33:52.680 Yeah. 3:33:52.920 --> 3:33:55.000 Saying something like this is insane. 3:33:55.200 --> 3:33:58.920 Yeah no. Yeah, it shows obviously like a complete lack 3:33:58.959 --> 3:34:02.800 of concern for accountabit right now, like like absolutely no 3:34:02.920 --> 3:34:04.480 thought that you could be held accountable for this. 3:34:04.680 --> 3:34:08.720 Yeah no, And it also shows a desire to kill liberally, yes, yeah, 3:34:08.800 --> 3:34:10.720 which liberals need to be aware of. 3:34:10.800 --> 3:34:12.840 Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah. 3:34:12.920 --> 3:34:18.480 You can't let this organization continue to exist, nor can 3:34:18.560 --> 3:34:21.480 you let the people doing this stay free. If you 3:34:21.560 --> 3:34:25.160 ever take power again, there has to be accountability, and 3:34:25.240 --> 3:34:28.720 there has to be an end to their ability, to 3:34:29.040 --> 3:34:33.000 the ability of any law enforcement agency to exist knowing 3:34:33.040 --> 3:34:37.160 that they are unaccountable and cannot be punished for the 3:34:37.280 --> 3:34:39.199 violence that they do to civilians. 3:34:39.320 --> 3:34:41.600 Yeah, I guess I'll take this point to mention that 3:34:41.800 --> 3:34:47.840 we've covered CBP and DHS's previous shootings in previous years 3:34:48.000 --> 3:34:51.920 and the internal review process they have for those, which 3:34:51.959 --> 3:34:54.720 has led to a lack of accountability even when compared 3:34:54.760 --> 3:34:56.679 to other law enforcement officers. 3:34:57.080 --> 3:34:57.400 Yeah. 3:34:57.560 --> 3:35:01.240 During this hearing this last Tuesday, the judge declined to 3:35:01.440 --> 3:35:04.320 alter the tier row to ban the use of tear 3:35:04.360 --> 3:35:10.080 gas completely, saying that she believes Baveno quote understands where 3:35:10.080 --> 3:35:13.720 I'm coming from. End quote. I don't know that we're 3:35:13.760 --> 3:35:16.520 gonna see a whole lot of tear gas being deployed 3:35:16.560 --> 3:35:22.080 over the next week. Unquote cool, great, amazing stuff, jumping 3:35:22.080 --> 3:35:23.800 out an our traditionary. 3:35:23.840 --> 3:35:25.959 Greg's picking up on the vibe. So we should be 3:35:26.000 --> 3:35:26.560 fine now. 3:35:26.800 --> 3:35:31.040 Yeah, this Buffdo guy seems incredibly trustworthy. Though Judge Ellis 3:35:31.040 --> 3:35:35.520 did instruct Blevino to meet with her every weekday evening 3:35:35.600 --> 3:35:39.560 throughout Operation Midway Blitz till the next hearing in November 3:35:39.920 --> 3:35:44.160 to provide instant briefings on use of force, though just 3:35:44.240 --> 3:35:47.440 one day later, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals blocked 3:35:47.760 --> 3:35:52.520 Judge Ellis's order requiring these daily reports. In some other 3:35:52.600 --> 3:35:57.960 Bovino mows Earlier this week, news broke that top ICE 3:35:58.640 --> 3:36:02.359 field office chief are set to be reassigned and replaced 3:36:02.560 --> 3:36:06.879 by senior Border Patrol and CBP officials with the goal 3:36:06.920 --> 3:36:10.520 of netting more arrests to boost deportation numbers. 3:36:11.520 --> 3:36:15.760 Yeah. So the role of Border Patrol Germany is into 3:36:15.800 --> 3:36:19.040 patrol the physical border and to do enforcement in that 3:36:19.040 --> 3:36:22.720 one hundred mile border zone. Right. Their role of ICE, 3:36:22.959 --> 3:36:25.800 the majority of ICE agents are not the people that 3:36:25.879 --> 3:36:28.720 you see out there, yea, jumping out of cars and 3:36:29.080 --> 3:36:31.840 doing these these smashing grabs. Right. The majority of ICE 3:36:31.879 --> 3:36:33.800 agents people who will work in the office, who will 3:36:33.879 --> 3:36:37.680 check in with migrants through their intensive supervision program, which 3:36:37.720 --> 3:36:41.680 is one of their quote unquote alternatives to detention. Right. 3:36:42.120 --> 3:36:45.760 Both of these agencies, you know, are relatively aligned with 3:36:45.760 --> 3:36:49.879 what I'll call like Donald Trump's agenda. But Border patrol 3:36:49.920 --> 3:36:53.320 particularly has made a name for itself, like Bevino himself 3:36:53.320 --> 3:36:56.840 and other Border Patrol chiefs were there was a time 3:36:56.879 --> 3:36:58.200 and it looked like they were going to force Veino 3:36:58.280 --> 3:37:00.280 to retire, and that time was twenty twenty three read 3:37:01.440 --> 3:37:05.040 briefing against it by an administration, Right, Brevino has been 3:37:05.120 --> 3:37:09.480 kind of particularly emblematic of this new border patrol approach, 3:37:09.920 --> 3:37:14.039 and it is particularly BP that has been aligned just 3:37:14.280 --> 3:37:16.280 with with a lot of things that you know, they had, 3:37:16.320 --> 3:37:20.160 they had issues getting people vaccinated, right like with this 3:37:20.200 --> 3:37:24.000 whole kind of political social media that is representative of 3:37:24.080 --> 3:37:27.720 the modern right we see with isoations. Like some of 3:37:27.760 --> 3:37:30.320 these people, I'm not going to say they joined like 3:37:30.360 --> 3:37:32.520 looking to help, you know, maybe like make the word 3:37:32.520 --> 3:37:36.840 actually a happy place, but like they they are reasonable 3:37:36.879 --> 3:37:39.160 civil servants, right Like, Like I've talked to plenty of 3:37:39.200 --> 3:37:41.000 migrants who have gone to there and you and you'll 3:37:41.040 --> 3:37:43.160 hear from some of them in a scripted series next month, 3:37:43.640 --> 3:37:45.400 gone to their ice check into been like, that was fine, 3:37:45.440 --> 3:37:48.720 that person was professional, that they seemed genuinely concerned for 3:37:48.760 --> 3:37:53.000 things I'm facing, and you know I was not unduly harassed, 3:37:53.000 --> 3:37:54.800 made to feel uncomfortable, et cetera, et cetera. 3:37:55.160 --> 3:37:59.119 Now the border patrol agents are like particularly brutal. 3:37:59.240 --> 3:38:01.480 I have not heard that's same. That was a reasonable 3:38:01.480 --> 3:38:07.200 professional about border patrol agents from migrants. Yeah, border patrol 3:38:07.200 --> 3:38:09.959 also has a pretty high churn, right as you know, 3:38:10.000 --> 3:38:11.240 so that they have a lot of people who have 3:38:11.320 --> 3:38:13.720 joined since let's say the first Trump admin. 3:38:14.240 --> 3:38:17.720 Yeah, and that may kind of change things because those 3:38:17.760 --> 3:38:21.120 people are joining specifically because they want to fuck with migrants. 3:38:21.240 --> 3:38:25.279 And while that's always been a thing for Border Patrol, 3:38:25.760 --> 3:38:28.240 a lot of people join the Border Patrol because it's 3:38:28.320 --> 3:38:32.119 the easiest way to become technically a federal agent. Yeah, 3:38:32.160 --> 3:38:35.280 and it can be a path to becoming a better 3:38:35.440 --> 3:38:36.520 kind of federal agent. 3:38:36.800 --> 3:38:37.560 Sure, you can be. 3:38:37.600 --> 3:38:39.680 A career thing, which is why part of why there's 3:38:39.720 --> 3:38:41.400 so much ch part of why. 3:38:41.360 --> 3:38:43.880 BP just to like characterize some of the issues the 3:38:43.959 --> 3:38:47.359 organization has had, right has consistently offered waivers the academic 3:38:47.440 --> 3:38:50.520 qualifications other agencies would not offer waivers for they have 3:38:50.600 --> 3:38:53.760 a problem, a serious problem with sexual assault, not just 3:38:53.840 --> 3:38:56.959 of migrants, but of women in the Border Patrol. They 3:38:57.000 --> 3:38:59.000 call the women in the Border Patrol the fierce five 3:38:59.040 --> 3:39:01.800 percent because this is an agency that has not succeeded 3:39:01.920 --> 3:39:04.959 in getting more than five percent of his agents to 3:39:05.080 --> 3:39:09.280 be women. Like it is an agency that has I 3:39:09.320 --> 3:39:12.640 guess for one of a better term radicalized, even even 3:39:12.760 --> 3:39:14.560 you know within DHS agencies. 3:39:14.720 --> 3:39:17.160 Yeah, I mean all of the most brutal incidents have 3:39:17.240 --> 3:39:19.920 used forced in like Portland in twenty twenty that came 3:39:19.959 --> 3:39:21.959 from FEDS was Border Patrol. 3:39:22.000 --> 3:39:26.360 That was Bortech, Yeah, boord Tech. Yeah. I would encourage people, 3:39:26.360 --> 3:39:27.760 if they want to get a sense of how Border 3:39:27.760 --> 3:39:31.000 Patrol sees itself, to go to the social media page 3:39:31.080 --> 3:39:34.720 that Baveno curates and has created for a while to look. 3:39:35.040 --> 3:39:37.879 And again he was my understanding, like hemmed up for 3:39:37.920 --> 3:39:40.400 his social media posts in the Biden administration. He's obviously 3:39:40.440 --> 3:39:42.879 not being restrained in that way. Now, go and look 3:39:42.920 --> 3:39:46.920 at I think it's called Border Patrol Special Operations Command 3:39:47.000 --> 3:39:49.640 or DHS Special Operations Command, which includes Bortach. Go and 3:39:49.640 --> 3:39:53.080 look at their pages. Right, Like these guys they see 3:39:53.120 --> 3:39:57.120 themselves in the realm of like a military branch or 3:39:57.120 --> 3:39:58.400 a paramilitary police. 3:39:58.560 --> 3:39:58.840 Yeah. 3:39:58.959 --> 3:40:01.880 And and that is what they are doing in Chicago. 3:40:02.320 --> 3:40:02.680 Yeah. 3:40:03.280 --> 3:40:05.360 NBC is reporting that the White House has approved three 3:40:05.360 --> 3:40:08.720 assignment of at least a dozen directors of ice Field offices, 3:40:09.200 --> 3:40:12.119 with sources telling Fox News that the cities will include 3:40:12.160 --> 3:40:17.720 Los Angeles, Phoenix, Denver, Philadelphia, El Paso, San Diego, Seattle, Portland, 3:40:17.800 --> 3:40:21.440 and New Orleans. This is almost half of the ice 3:40:21.480 --> 3:40:24.720 Field offices in the country. This turnover is being orchestrated 3:40:24.800 --> 3:40:30.240 by DHS Secretary Christine Nome and DHS senior advisor Corey Lewandowski, 3:40:31.080 --> 3:40:35.119 with some of the replacements being hand picked by Bevino. 3:40:35.720 --> 3:40:38.920 This is like Bevino began to shape ICE how he 3:40:39.040 --> 3:40:43.200 sees fit using his border patrol like background, and these 3:40:43.280 --> 3:40:47.920 changes are reportedly motivated on differing views on tactics across 3:40:48.040 --> 3:40:51.240 agency leadership with the ICE strategy like the Tom Holman 3:40:51.280 --> 3:40:55.440 strategy of focusing on targeted removal of known criminals or 3:40:55.480 --> 3:40:59.840 immigrants with pre existing deputation orders versus the border patrol 3:41:00.720 --> 3:41:04.040 of doing these large sweeps and roundups around places like 3:41:04.560 --> 3:41:08.800 hom deepos, laundromats, restaurants, neighborhoods, urban centers. 3:41:09.200 --> 3:41:11.480 So Bavino like has been on this for a minute, 3:41:11.520 --> 3:41:13.880 right like, and I'm now realizing we need to cover 3:41:14.000 --> 3:41:16.080 his his career in more depth. But like I've seen this, 3:41:16.240 --> 3:41:18.760 Oh where did Bevino come from? Stuff? In twenty ten, 3:41:19.080 --> 3:41:21.760 when he was out of at the Blithe Border Patrol 3:41:21.800 --> 3:41:26.160 station I believe Blyza, California. For those not familiar, Bavino 3:41:26.400 --> 3:41:29.640 was part of a raid on bus and train stations 3:41:29.640 --> 3:41:33.120 in Las Vegas, right like, these these broader kind of 3:41:33.200 --> 3:41:36.760 dragnets have been something that he seems to have been 3:41:36.760 --> 3:41:40.000 a characteristic of his career, right, so that would make 3:41:40.120 --> 3:41:42.880 sense for him to be the guy advocating for this now. 3:41:43.400 --> 3:41:47.240 The official statement made by DHS Assistant Secretary Tricia McLaughlin 3:41:47.560 --> 3:41:50.080 at this point says, quote, while we have no personnel 3:41:50.120 --> 3:41:52.800 changes to announce at this time, the Romme administration remains 3:41:52.840 --> 3:41:56.240 laser focused on delivering results and removing violent criminal legal 3:41:56.240 --> 3:41:59.240 aliens from this country. And she followed up this statement 3:41:59.280 --> 3:42:01.640 with a tweet naming a whole bitch of people involved 3:42:01.680 --> 3:42:05.480 in all of these news stories, including Bavino and like, 3:42:05.520 --> 3:42:09.240 praising them for their patriotism. Let's take a look at 3:42:09.240 --> 3:42:16.000 two pictures of Boveto here for his courtroom attire. Who 3:42:16.080 --> 3:42:18.840 wants to describe what Bavito is wearing here? 3:42:18.920 --> 3:42:20.360 It looks like a statue of Stalin. 3:42:20.920 --> 3:42:24.560 He looks like a guy in the SS is dressing 3:42:25.080 --> 3:42:27.280 as a guy in the SS for Halloween. 3:42:27.760 --> 3:42:30.880 I don't think it's very Stalin. I think it's very German. 3:42:31.000 --> 3:42:31.840 N Actually, that. 3:42:31.879 --> 3:42:35.959 Is an ssque looking coat. I'm sorry, it's intense. 3:42:36.000 --> 3:42:38.680 He has the little is little stars on his collar 3:42:39.040 --> 3:42:43.199 and yeah, this this like boxy wool trench coat. It's 3:42:43.360 --> 3:42:45.879 very with the like shaved sides of his head. It's 3:42:46.000 --> 3:42:48.760 very clear what he is trying to evoke. This is 3:42:48.760 --> 3:42:53.119 a little bit koy, but like come on, come on, dude, 3:42:53.680 --> 3:42:57.680 and to follow this up, like DHS is really is 3:42:57.720 --> 3:43:02.080 really pushing Bavino now is like the face of this, 3:43:02.080 --> 3:43:06.000 this mass deportation push and they're making fucking like fash 3:43:06.080 --> 3:43:10.160 wave pype fash wave hype edit reels. 3:43:09.840 --> 3:43:12.600 Of show it. God it's mass. 3:43:13.440 --> 3:43:15.959 And I will I'll play the whole thing, but really 3:43:16.000 --> 3:43:19.080 it's the first two seconds that demonstrate what's what's going 3:43:19.160 --> 3:43:19.560 on here. 3:43:19.879 --> 3:43:32.119 This will be linked in the notes. I didn't realize 3:43:32.160 --> 3:43:35.080 it was Hampster Dance Coldplay on the soundtrack, Like I 3:43:35.080 --> 3:43:36.200 I had never listened to that. 3:43:36.440 --> 3:43:38.039 Yeah, that's a choice. 3:43:38.120 --> 3:43:40.879 We're not gonna play much of that audio, garretson, We're 3:43:40.879 --> 3:43:44.840 gonna play we are not playing thirty seconds of copyrighted audio, 3:43:44.920 --> 3:43:49.200 but just the first literally the first two seconds of 3:43:49.280 --> 3:43:52.840 him doing what is very clearly a se kyle and 3:43:52.879 --> 3:43:57.120 then transferring it into like military hand signals, but like 3:43:58.320 --> 3:44:01.720 come on, dude, and then throughout throughout this the rest 3:44:01.760 --> 3:44:04.640 of the little fash wave edit, it's like pictures of 3:44:04.720 --> 3:44:08.520 him and his like uh, you know, tactical gear, and 3:44:08.560 --> 3:44:11.040 then pictures of him in what you I would describe 3:44:11.080 --> 3:44:15.480 as an SS inspired military dress uniform with the little 3:44:15.520 --> 3:44:17.720 you know, the stars, the trench code. It's like very 3:44:17.760 --> 3:44:20.560 clear what he's doing. The DHS Twitter account has been 3:44:20.800 --> 3:44:24.119 doing these little cute Nazi posts for a long time. 3:44:24.200 --> 3:44:28.320 Now they know what they're doing. It's yeah, but specifically 3:44:28.520 --> 3:44:31.959 this now being like the the new kind of face 3:44:32.080 --> 3:44:35.200 of this of this whole operation, both by playing a 3:44:35.240 --> 3:44:38.440 hand in restructuring the leadership of ICE and deploying to 3:44:38.480 --> 3:44:41.120 the forefront of paces like Chicago as he leads and 3:44:41.200 --> 3:44:46.040 orchestrates the mass deportation operation like Operation Midway Blitz like 3:44:46.280 --> 3:44:53.280 blitz really do blitz yest interesting, interesting, unfucking believable that 3:44:53.360 --> 3:44:56.440 the fact that this guy was not canned by any 3:44:56.680 --> 3:45:01.600 previous Democrat administration, like like about like abolishing ICE is 3:45:01.600 --> 3:45:04.240 is obviously like not enough here, because as we're talking 3:45:04.320 --> 3:45:07.280 about the way that like border patrols actually been the 3:45:07.320 --> 3:45:10.720 ones leading the most brutal of these raids, I think 3:45:10.800 --> 3:45:14.160 like there is a specific focus on like ICE because 3:45:14.160 --> 3:45:16.680 that's like a safer target. I get like it feels 3:45:16.760 --> 3:45:19.800 like because people know what you're talking about. 3:45:19.280 --> 3:45:21.680 All of DHS, we need to get rid of. 3:45:22.600 --> 3:45:25.800 Yeah, the fact that this guy wasn't fired is going 3:45:25.840 --> 3:45:27.959 to be looked back upon in the same way that 3:45:28.040 --> 3:45:30.920 like Allende promoting Pinochet is looked back on. 3:45:32.600 --> 3:45:34.879 Just yeah, yeah, it's. 3:45:35.080 --> 3:45:38.520 It's yeah, what how else do you describe it? 3:45:38.879 --> 3:45:41.440 Yeah, Like, if there was going to be a free country, 3:45:41.920 --> 3:45:44.720 all of this shit, all of the DHS agencies, all 3:45:44.760 --> 3:45:47.160 of this needs to cease to exist as a minimum, 3:45:47.280 --> 3:45:48.879 and these people need to be like haled in front 3:45:48.920 --> 3:45:52.640 of a neurobird tribunal, and that's that's the minimum viable. 3:45:52.920 --> 3:45:54.680 There might be a democracy after that. 3:45:54.800 --> 3:45:56.439 We need so many Neurembergs. 3:45:57.560 --> 3:46:01.119 Yeah, yeah, And like it's not but I don't want 3:46:01.160 --> 3:46:03.560 to burn a bloat about this. It's not hard to 3:46:03.600 --> 3:46:08.120 have seen this coming. We have talked about this four years, right, Like, yeah, 3:46:08.520 --> 3:46:13.120 this began in the nineteen nineties with Operation Gatekeeper, Operation 3:46:13.280 --> 3:46:18.000 Hold the Line. We've documented this extensively. We've documented the 3:46:18.000 --> 3:46:20.920 fact that under the Biden administration there was virtually no oversight, 3:46:21.000 --> 3:46:24.280 right that they were able to detain people outdoors without food, water, 3:46:24.400 --> 3:46:28.200 or shelter and deny that those people were detained. This 3:46:28.280 --> 3:46:31.280 is all stuff that we've covered. If it wasn't in 3:46:31.320 --> 3:46:34.640 your news diet, then you should question the news sources 3:46:34.640 --> 3:46:38.240 that you were using. But like, it was very easy 3:46:38.320 --> 3:46:41.080 to see this coming, and as Mia said, very little 3:46:41.160 --> 3:46:44.400 was done to prevent it during the last four years yep. 3:46:44.680 --> 3:46:49.600 And somewhat more amusing news during the ongoing trial over 3:46:50.440 --> 3:46:55.240 the different federal agents deployed to Portland and the necessity 3:46:55.360 --> 3:46:59.000 of that federal deployment and potentially the mobilization of National 3:46:59.000 --> 3:47:01.360 Guard troops in Oregon being sent to Portland, which is 3:47:01.400 --> 3:47:05.800 still being fought over in the courts. Portland police were 3:47:05.959 --> 3:47:09.720 brought up on the stand and testified that during one 3:47:10.000 --> 3:47:14.680 night out at Ice, federal officers gassed Portland police and 3:47:14.720 --> 3:47:18.640 fired pepper balls at one officer. And when Portland Police 3:47:18.680 --> 3:47:22.440 confronted federal not ice, sorry but these are these are 3:47:22.520 --> 3:47:24.720 federal FPS agents outside of the ICE building. 3:47:24.800 --> 3:47:25.000 Yeah. 3:47:25.080 --> 3:47:29.480 And when Portland Police confronted the FPS agents afterwards, they 3:47:29.560 --> 3:47:31.400 responded help or get out of the way. 3:47:32.360 --> 3:47:32.560 Uh. 3:47:32.600 --> 3:47:35.080 And this is simply there's no actually, there's no there's 3:47:35.080 --> 3:47:38.520 no rules of engagement, right, rules of engagement for you know, 3:47:38.760 --> 3:47:41.480 soldiers in the like are supposed to be stuff like 3:47:41.680 --> 3:47:47.959 you don't fire until a certain standard of danger exists. Right, 3:47:48.120 --> 3:47:51.080 you don't. There are rules at which point you are 3:47:51.120 --> 3:47:54.840 allowed to engage with which kinds of weapons, right your 3:47:55.000 --> 3:47:58.360 r Oh, we may say one thing about using a 3:47:58.480 --> 3:48:01.600 night stick or and it will say something else about 3:48:01.680 --> 3:48:04.600 using dear gas or whatever. There's no actual ro for 3:48:04.640 --> 3:48:07.039 these guys. They're allowed to just kind of fire whenever 3:48:07.080 --> 3:48:10.119 they want, and they're not well trained. They're not very 3:48:10.160 --> 3:48:12.360 good at what they do. Most of them have not 3:48:12.480 --> 3:48:14.520 actually had the kind of draining I've been supposed to 3:48:14.520 --> 3:48:16.920 have with these weapons systems they're using, and they're just 3:48:17.000 --> 3:48:18.840 kind of firing willy and illy, which is why they've 3:48:18.879 --> 3:48:20.120 been heading cops repeatedly. 3:48:20.640 --> 3:48:24.040 Most FS agents are contractors. They're not full time law 3:48:24.080 --> 3:48:24.920 enforcement officers. 3:48:25.280 --> 3:48:25.480 Right. 3:48:26.480 --> 3:48:31.320 Talking of things that it would have been easy to 3:48:31.400 --> 3:48:35.760 see coming, I want to talk about ICE's facial recognition app. 3:48:36.240 --> 3:48:39.400 So I've seen a piece of four four media. Four 3:48:39.400 --> 3:48:41.240 and four media is the most annoying outlet to read 3:48:41.280 --> 3:48:43.880 pieces in because they will send you seventeen emails a day. 3:48:44.360 --> 3:48:47.080 Four A form media suggests that ICE is claiming a 3:48:47.480 --> 3:48:51.240 facial recognition match in its app mobile Fortify is a 3:48:51.240 --> 3:48:56.320 definitive determination of somebody's status. They're quoting here the ranking 3:48:56.360 --> 3:48:59.120 member of the House Home Land Security Committee, Benny G. Thompson, 3:48:59.200 --> 3:49:02.480 as saying, quote mobile Fortify is a dangerous tool in 3:49:02.480 --> 3:49:04.800 the hands of ICE, and it puts American citizens a 3:49:04.920 --> 3:49:08.600 risk of detention and even deportation. He also said that 3:49:08.680 --> 3:49:12.000 quote ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric 3:49:12.040 --> 3:49:15.120 match by mobile fortifier is a definitive determination of a 3:49:15.160 --> 3:49:19.600 person's status, and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence 3:49:19.600 --> 3:49:24.360 of American citizenship, including a birth certificate, if the app 3:49:24.400 --> 3:49:27.840 says the person is an alien. ICE using a mobile 3:49:27.840 --> 3:49:30.760 biometrics app in this way, in ways its developers at 3:49:30.800 --> 3:49:34.200 CBP never intended or tested, is a frightening, repugnant, and 3:49:34.280 --> 3:49:39.600 unconstitutional attack on Americans rights and freedoms. Thompson is misguided 3:49:39.720 --> 3:49:44.240 if he thinks that like this is new, it is new, 3:49:44.280 --> 3:49:49.120 and that's that its impacted US citizens. Yes, this article, 3:49:49.360 --> 3:49:53.440 for reasons I cannot explain, does not mention CBP one right, 3:49:53.560 --> 3:49:56.520 and as is often the case some immigration reporting that 3:49:56.560 --> 3:50:00.880 we see now, it's completely lacking in context. The context 3:50:00.880 --> 3:50:02.880 here is at CBP one is an app developed in 3:50:02.920 --> 3:50:06.880 the first Trump administration. It's often referred to as a 3:50:06.920 --> 3:50:10.000 Biden app because the definitive political question of our time 3:50:10.480 --> 3:50:12.640 is who was present in twenty twenty. 3:50:13.120 --> 3:50:14.120 There's just no way to know. 3:50:14.240 --> 3:50:17.200 It's impossible to say you can't do data on anything 3:50:17.240 --> 3:50:18.320 happening that far back. 3:50:20.000 --> 3:50:22.320 Unfortunately, I have a new one which is more recent, 3:50:22.440 --> 3:50:23.800 which we're going to talk about next. 3:50:24.360 --> 3:50:25.640 Groc This is real. 3:50:27.280 --> 3:50:33.040 But CBP one was effectively determinative for migrants, right. We've 3:50:33.080 --> 3:50:36.840 covered this in great detail here. There were some public 3:50:36.880 --> 3:50:41.400 records about CBP one that I've looked at extensively. There's 3:50:41.440 --> 3:50:43.440 sort of too long didn't read. Version is app did 3:50:43.440 --> 3:50:46.680 not work well on Android phones, especially previous generation Android phones, 3:50:46.680 --> 3:50:50.360 which are very common among people coming from the Global South. 3:50:50.920 --> 3:50:53.840 The facial liveness scan. So what the facial liveness scan 3:50:54.000 --> 3:50:57.800 does is that let's say Robert is coming to the US, right, 3:50:58.320 --> 3:51:01.320 they wanted to check that the phone is being held 3:51:01.360 --> 3:51:03.840 by Robert, that it's not been held someone's not holding 3:51:03.920 --> 3:51:06.160 up a photograph of Robert in front of the camera, right, 3:51:06.560 --> 3:51:08.920 So you sort of move it around. Then it determines 3:51:08.920 --> 3:51:12.600 that it's a real three D face, not a photograph. 3:51:12.760 --> 3:51:17.240 It really struggled with black faces. I've seen this firsthand. 3:51:17.280 --> 3:51:19.600 I've all this stuff does that's the same thing with 3:51:19.720 --> 3:51:24.000 like how there have been like motion activated fossets and 3:51:24.040 --> 3:51:26.360 stuff that wouldn't recognize dark scale. 3:51:26.440 --> 3:51:28.080 It's a data set that they put in right to 3:51:28.120 --> 3:51:32.360 my understand Yeah, the results of those scans were determinative 3:51:32.560 --> 3:51:35.400 for migrants, right. It could determine their ability to make 3:51:35.440 --> 3:51:38.360 an asylum appointment and therefore to enter the US and 3:51:38.400 --> 3:51:41.800 make a claim for asylum. This caused people to remain 3:51:41.840 --> 3:51:44.800 in various very dangerous situations. It has probably led to 3:51:44.840 --> 3:51:49.040 people dying. It's another example of why we have to 3:51:49.040 --> 3:51:50.920 pay attention to the border if you want to know 3:51:50.960 --> 3:51:54.600 what's coming down the pipe domestically, and talking of shit 3:51:54.680 --> 3:51:57.320 that is coming down the pipe from the border domestically. 3:51:57.720 --> 3:52:01.800 I want to talk about public lands again because Utah 3:52:01.920 --> 3:52:05.720 Senator Mike Lee is back on his bullshit. This time 3:52:05.760 --> 3:52:08.600 he has another bill. People will remember that Mike Lee 3:52:08.720 --> 3:52:12.040 tried to insert in the budget reconciliation bill a massive 3:52:12.120 --> 3:52:15.760 sell off of public lands, right. And what Lee does 3:52:15.880 --> 3:52:19.280 is he uses whatever terminology he thinks will make people 3:52:19.400 --> 3:52:24.280 support this crusade he has against land zone by the 3:52:24.320 --> 3:52:27.040 public for if we want to access In the last time, 3:52:27.080 --> 3:52:29.240 he tried to wrap it up a language about affordable housing. 3:52:29.240 --> 3:52:30.920 If you read the bill, you would have seen that 3:52:31.000 --> 3:52:34.240 there wasn't going to result in any affordable housing. This time, 3:52:34.280 --> 3:52:36.840 he's wrapping it up in the language of border security. 3:52:37.400 --> 3:52:39.680 And this is where I'm where We're going to return 3:52:39.720 --> 3:52:43.120 to the defining political question of our time. Who is President? 3:52:43.800 --> 3:52:46.320 Because Lee, who introduced the bell in October of twenty 3:52:46.360 --> 3:52:50.400 twenty five, said, and I quote, Biden's open border chaos 3:52:50.440 --> 3:52:54.800 is destroying American's crown jewels. Families who want to enjoy 3:52:54.840 --> 3:52:58.440 a safe hike or camp out are instead finding trash piles, 3:52:58.720 --> 3:53:02.440 burned landscapes, and trails closed because rangers are stuck clearing 3:53:02.520 --> 3:53:05.960 up the fallout cartails are exploding their disorder, using these 3:53:06.040 --> 3:53:08.760 lands as cover for their operation. This bill GIFs land 3:53:08.760 --> 3:53:12.240 managers and border agents the tools to restore order and 3:53:12.240 --> 3:53:15.040 protect these places for the people they were meant to serve. 3:53:16.160 --> 3:53:18.960 Diligent observers will notice that Biden is no longer the 3:53:18.960 --> 3:53:24.120 president of the United States, and further diligent observers will 3:53:24.160 --> 3:53:27.480 notice that many people currently working for the federal government 3:53:27.680 --> 3:53:30.960 on public lands are being laid off or furloughed due 3:53:31.000 --> 3:53:35.280 to the government shutdown. What Lee's bill would do is 3:53:35.360 --> 3:53:41.320 allow dhs to identify illegal roads in public land areas 3:53:41.760 --> 3:53:45.840 and then to upgrade them to navigable roads. This is 3:53:45.880 --> 3:53:48.800 important because the nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act doesn't allow 3:53:48.880 --> 3:53:53.040 motorized access to wilderness areas, and what Lee is proposing 3:53:53.280 --> 3:53:56.480 is that they would identify these illegal roads within one 3:53:56.520 --> 3:54:02.640 hundred mile zone. But he is proposing a blanket change 3:54:02.760 --> 3:54:04.920 to the nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act to allow the 3:54:04.960 --> 3:54:09.080 construction of roads, which would completely change the nature of 3:54:09.080 --> 3:54:13.000 wilderness in the United States. And sometimes a sliperslow argument 3:54:13.040 --> 3:54:15.120 can also be a fallacy, but in this case, building 3:54:15.160 --> 3:54:18.760 roads into the wilderness will permanently change the nature of 3:54:18.760 --> 3:54:22.200 their wilderness and will lead to other losses of protection 3:54:22.520 --> 3:54:26.720 on public land. Lee makes the argument that it's important 3:54:26.720 --> 3:54:30.160 for search and rescue and for border access. There is 3:54:30.240 --> 3:54:34.520 already mechanized access for search and rescue. They give search 3:54:34.560 --> 3:54:38.400 and rescue helicopters, for instance, can access wilderness areas that 3:54:38.480 --> 3:54:41.800 they have agreements in place with land management agencies which 3:54:41.840 --> 3:54:43.800 allow them to do this already when there is a 3:54:43.880 --> 3:54:47.600 risk to human life. The bill also talks about removing 3:54:47.760 --> 3:54:51.840 invasive species and reducing fire risk by removing fire fuels 3:54:51.880 --> 3:54:56.000 down by the border. Again, I'm guessing what this would 3:54:56.080 --> 3:54:58.880 do would be This would I mean if you fire 3:54:58.880 --> 3:55:01.840 fuels like look at the souther border near where I live, right, 3:55:01.920 --> 3:55:05.520 like think of the California sage brush chaparral. Like, clearing 3:55:05.640 --> 3:55:09.880 fire fuels there would completely change that landscape forever. It 3:55:09.920 --> 3:55:13.200 would remove much of the value that this wilderness has 3:55:13.720 --> 3:55:16.320 not as untouched. Right, people have lived in this area 3:55:16.400 --> 3:55:19.080 for tenths of thousands of years, and that they have 3:55:19.240 --> 3:55:21.480 touched that nature, and they have lived alongside it and 3:55:21.520 --> 3:55:23.800 worked with it. But it is an area that is 3:55:23.840 --> 3:55:29.240 significantly less damaged than most of the United States. 3:55:29.400 --> 3:55:29.560 Right. 3:55:30.280 --> 3:55:35.440 The bill would also inventory fires and damage to wilderness 3:55:35.480 --> 3:55:38.640 caused by migrants. I guess this is just an attempt 3:55:38.680 --> 3:55:42.200 to say another bad thing about migrants. It also prohibits 3:55:42.240 --> 3:55:45.800 any housing of migrants on federal lands unless it is 3:55:45.840 --> 3:55:50.280 in a prison. It's Lee taking this border hawk stuff 3:55:50.760 --> 3:55:52.920 and trapping it onto this crusade that he has been 3:55:52.920 --> 3:55:56.240 on for a long time to deprive people in the 3:55:56.320 --> 3:55:59.000 United States and people visiting the United States have access 3:55:59.040 --> 3:56:02.080 to their public lands and eventually to sell those lands 3:56:02.120 --> 3:56:05.480 off to the highest bidder. He introduced it on October second. 3:56:05.520 --> 3:56:08.840 It's in the committee stage right now. This probably is 3:56:08.880 --> 3:56:12.960 one of the things that folks could call a representative 3:56:13.000 --> 3:56:16.720 about and suggest it's a very bad idea. Talking to 3:56:16.760 --> 3:56:19.680 bad ideas. My daughter has announced the formation of an 3:56:19.680 --> 3:56:24.800 international brigade to defend his incredibly corrupt regime in Venezuela. 3:56:25.040 --> 3:56:27.200 I say this is someone who has been to Venezuela 3:56:27.560 --> 3:56:31.360 and written a PhD about the Spanish Civil War. This 3:56:31.400 --> 3:56:34.360 is a very bad idea. Don't do this. 3:56:34.040 --> 3:56:34.320 This is. 3:56:35.880 --> 3:56:39.120 Maduro does not need your help. Fuck that guy talking 3:56:39.160 --> 3:56:49.240 of things that don't need your help. Here are some adverts. 3:56:55.080 --> 3:56:58.280 I can't believe you're throwing the People's Republic of Venezuela 3:56:58.360 --> 3:57:01.760 under the bus like that, as there facing down war 3:57:02.400 --> 3:57:04.560 with the United States of America. 3:57:04.200 --> 3:57:06.960 Right now, standing in the breach against imperialism. Yeah, I 3:57:06.960 --> 3:57:07.680 read a lot about it. 3:57:07.840 --> 3:57:10.240 What happened? Does hashtag solidarity? Jane? 3:57:10.840 --> 3:57:12.600 I'm sorry. I read about it on the Gray Zone 3:57:12.600 --> 3:57:16.080 and I'm changing my opinions, having spent more time than 3:57:16.160 --> 3:57:18.760 I'm sure half the staff the Gray Zone in Venezuela. 3:57:18.920 --> 3:57:21.840 Speaking of Spooky, the ship Trump's getting is part of 3:57:21.920 --> 3:57:23.760 terraff negotiations who. 3:57:28.800 --> 3:57:38.800 Jazz, jazz rock, jazz rock, jazz bo. 3:57:40.880 --> 3:57:43.840 All right, So, as we talked about last week, Trump 3:57:44.160 --> 3:57:48.080 has been in East Asia to do a bunch of 3:57:48.120 --> 3:57:53.000 meetings for conversations already happening. And this is where terrificagotiations 3:57:53.080 --> 3:57:55.160 have been being handled. This has been being held in 3:57:55.200 --> 3:57:59.800 South Korea. South Korean President Lee JM Young presented Trump 3:57:59.840 --> 3:58:02.520 with South Korea's highest honor and also gave him a 3:58:02.600 --> 3:58:06.880 giant golden crown. Have you all seen the giant golden crowd? 3:58:06.920 --> 3:58:10.040 It's that easy, folks. All you gotta do, it's all 3:58:10.040 --> 3:58:13.440 you gotta do is just these little stupid things, and 3:58:13.480 --> 3:58:14.560 then he loves. 3:58:14.280 --> 3:58:17.240 You, giant gilded crowd. 3:58:17.480 --> 3:58:19.600 I haven't seen the crown. I'm gonna look at the crown. 3:58:20.320 --> 3:58:23.720 Look up the crowd. I am beseeching you all yet. 3:58:23.800 --> 3:58:27.320 I however, big you think this crown is? It is 3:58:27.600 --> 3:58:29.520 way larger than that it is. 3:58:29.800 --> 3:58:36.080 Oh wow, yeah, no, it's Jesus wow. 3:58:36.240 --> 3:58:38.840 It's like the size of all fire hydran. Yeah. 3:58:38.600 --> 3:58:42.840 Yeah, maybe they directly they directly took the one that 3:58:42.880 --> 3:58:45.040 they took from Prince Andrew for being a nonse and 3:58:45.080 --> 3:58:45.800 melted it down. 3:58:48.120 --> 3:58:51.880 It's really something now, now, Lee J. Meung is a 3:58:51.960 --> 3:58:55.360 name you might recognize because he's the guy who was 3:58:55.400 --> 3:58:57.800 famous for that video of climbing over the fence to 3:58:57.800 --> 3:59:00.040 stop the coup last year. And one year later he 3:59:00.120 --> 3:59:02.920 is giving Trump what I think might be the largest 3:59:02.920 --> 3:59:05.960 crown I have ever seen. Now, this crown is being 3:59:06.000 --> 3:59:09.240 described as quote a gilded replica. So I don't know 3:59:09.280 --> 3:59:12.680 how much of this is actually gold. I suspect it's 3:59:13.080 --> 3:59:15.600 gold paint or whatever. I don't know. I do not 3:59:15.720 --> 3:59:19.680 have confirmation on it. But you know, great great things 3:59:19.720 --> 3:59:23.400 happening in sort of like a revolutionary anti coup movement 3:59:23.760 --> 3:59:28.200 which has giving Trump the giant golden crown. Yeah, and 3:59:28.240 --> 3:59:31.360 apparently and they got like a kind of favorable, sort 3:59:31.440 --> 3:59:35.520 of okay ish kind of trade dealt out of out 3:59:35.560 --> 3:59:38.800 of giving the President of the United States giant golden crown. So, 3:59:39.000 --> 3:59:44.600 in terms of tariff news, while in China, Trump had 3:59:44.640 --> 3:59:48.720 his long awaited beating Lustijian Ping, they struck a deal. 3:59:49.040 --> 3:59:52.800 Trump decreased the quote unquote fence andyl tariffs to ten percent, 3:59:53.440 --> 3:59:55.600 which leaves the teriff right for all Chinese goods at 3:59:55.600 --> 3:59:58.960 forty seven percent, down from its previous fifty seven percent. 3:59:59.400 --> 4:00:02.400 China has a reed to not do Rare Earth's mineral 4:00:02.440 --> 4:00:05.400 restrictions that we talked about last week, and has also 4:00:05.440 --> 4:00:08.920 pledged by US soybeans. Again, it's deeply unclear how much 4:00:08.920 --> 4:00:11.880 of this is actually going to happen. I think my 4:00:12.200 --> 4:00:16.160 guess is that they probably won't do the harshest of 4:00:16.200 --> 4:00:20.000 the mineral restrictions, but I will believe the soybean purchases 4:00:20.000 --> 4:00:21.760 when I see it, and I haven't seen it yet. 4:00:22.920 --> 4:00:25.240 There's also been some interesting US out of the Senate 4:00:25.280 --> 4:00:27.880 where there's been a couple of symbolic votes against some 4:00:27.960 --> 4:00:31.120 sets of tariffs. The Senate voted fifty to forty six 4:00:31.200 --> 4:00:34.120 to end the state of emergency that supposedly allows Trump 4:00:34.120 --> 4:00:36.320 to do the Canada tariffs, and also voted to block 4:00:36.360 --> 4:00:40.040 tariffs against Brazil. The four people who voted against both 4:00:40.080 --> 4:00:44.800 of these, who voted with the Democrats are Mitch McConnell, 4:00:45.480 --> 4:00:49.040 Rand Paul, Susan Collins, and Lisa Morowski. Which it kind 4:00:49.040 --> 4:00:51.040 of makes sense because Collins and Morowski are supposed to 4:00:51.080 --> 4:00:56.200 lead the two moderates. Rand Paul is like just hates tariffs. Yeah, 4:00:56.320 --> 4:00:59.600 he's a free trade hardliner who whenever I talk about this, 4:00:59.640 --> 4:01:01.960 I will say he has had as much as all 4:01:02.000 --> 4:01:05.000 of this is his fault, he has had one great light, ever, 4:01:05.120 --> 4:01:07.480 which is I have a trade deficit with my grocery store. 4:01:09.800 --> 4:01:11.000 Actually really good. 4:01:11.840 --> 4:01:14.880 Is he like an Austrian like economists, like libertarian type, 4:01:14.920 --> 4:01:17.080 Like I know he's like a libertarian guy. I'm just 4:01:17.080 --> 4:01:19.160 trying to figure out what specific flavor. 4:01:19.440 --> 4:01:21.440 He's like an he's like one of the Austrian like 4:01:21.640 --> 4:01:24.520 gold standards, but also like those people are still free 4:01:24.520 --> 4:01:26.640 trade people, like really hardline. 4:01:26.760 --> 4:01:29.040 Last time I heard Charlie Kirk talk in person, he 4:01:29.120 --> 4:01:35.880 was debating like five Austrian economists the most annoying people mean. 4:01:35.800 --> 4:01:39.880 To Like, honestly, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That 4:01:39.960 --> 4:01:43.240 sounds like that sounds like why would you agree to 4:01:43.280 --> 4:01:46.440 do that, especially if you're already rich. I don't understand that. 4:01:46.600 --> 4:01:47.800 I don't understand it. 4:01:50.080 --> 4:01:52.800 Now, Okay, it's just also word doating though that despite 4:01:52.800 --> 4:01:54.760 these votes, none of this is going to take effect 4:01:54.760 --> 4:01:57.880 because the House right now effectively does not exist as. 4:01:57.800 --> 4:01:59.720 A legislative body. 4:02:00.240 --> 4:02:03.360 Yeah, it doesn't exist in general because they keep not 4:02:03.600 --> 4:02:06.160 calling sessions because every time they try to call a session, 4:02:06.160 --> 4:02:09.480 the Democrats in the one political theater thing that like 4:02:10.720 --> 4:02:12.600 is kind of a good idea, but they're so bad 4:02:12.640 --> 4:02:14.640 at it. They keep being like, you have to release 4:02:14.680 --> 4:02:17.080 the Epstein files, and the Republicans keep being like, no, 4:02:17.200 --> 4:02:19.240 so we kind of don't have a House of Representatives. 4:02:19.360 --> 4:02:22.440 I keep thinking about that one scene from Mars Attacks 4:02:22.480 --> 4:02:24.840 with the presidents, like, you've still got two out of 4:02:24.880 --> 4:02:27.200 three branches a government, and that ain't bad. 4:02:28.120 --> 4:02:32.720 Yeah, we basically have one branch of government. 4:02:32.760 --> 4:02:34.560 We have one branch of Yeah, we have one branch 4:02:34.600 --> 4:02:35.720 of governments, and like. 4:02:35.760 --> 4:02:37.840 But that doesn't work as a Mars Attacks Joe. 4:02:38.480 --> 4:02:38.800 Yeah. 4:02:39.080 --> 4:02:41.760 But and also it's worth noting the House voted to 4:02:41.960 --> 4:02:45.240 not allow any tariff legislation until March twenty twenty six, 4:02:45.360 --> 4:02:48.160 a thing that it could apparently do. It is totally normal. 4:02:48.360 --> 4:02:50.000 Sure, Oh well, yeah, you. 4:02:49.920 --> 4:02:51.640 Know so, and speak of things are totally normal. We're 4:02:51.640 --> 4:02:56.160 gonna close this with Trump getting mad at Canada because 4:02:56.160 --> 4:02:58.120 we saw an ad they were running, Oh my god, 4:02:58.240 --> 4:03:01.800 yeah series that God it was. 4:03:01.840 --> 4:03:02.000 It was. 4:03:02.040 --> 4:03:03.920 It was a bunch of clips of Ronald Reagan being like, 4:03:04.040 --> 4:03:09.080 tariff's bad because Reagan Reagan's domestic protectionism took the form 4:03:09.120 --> 4:03:13.040 of currency devaluations and not tariffs, et cetera. Et cetera. 4:03:13.120 --> 4:03:15.680 But like, yeah, so and and and Trump saw this, 4:03:16.000 --> 4:03:19.880 lost his mind, said that it was Ai. There's a 4:03:19.920 --> 4:03:22.800 whole saga here about him claiming that it was like 4:03:23.000 --> 4:03:27.280 also unauthorized usage of footage, which is a fiasco. And 4:03:27.320 --> 4:03:30.040 then also all of the terror negotiations that have been 4:03:30.040 --> 4:03:32.000 happening to the US and Canada have been called off 4:03:32.080 --> 4:03:34.520 and he just put another ten percent terriff on them 4:03:34.520 --> 4:03:38.440 because he was mad about it. Goje, which yeah, totally, 4:03:38.520 --> 4:03:42.880 you know, I I totally absolutely a thing that like 4:03:42.960 --> 4:03:46.600 an elected head of government does and not a a 4:03:46.720 --> 4:03:50.880 guy who just received it a massive golden crown. Ah garousaid, 4:03:51.080 --> 4:03:52.520 that's not a blue Jay's hat, but. 4:03:52.480 --> 4:03:55.240 You know this is a blue Jay's hat. Mia, How 4:03:55.360 --> 4:03:59.880 fucking dare you try to? Uh, she'splain my own, my 4:04:00.240 --> 4:04:02.440 own country, myself. 4:04:02.880 --> 4:04:04.560 Yeah, it's Toronto's team. 4:04:04.720 --> 4:04:07.960 Garrison's wearing a hat for those who are not working 4:04:08.040 --> 4:04:08.880 for coolers own media. 4:04:08.920 --> 4:04:11.320 It's the Toronto Blue Jays. Oh my god, yeah yeah yeah, 4:04:11.320 --> 4:04:11.960 in Toronto blue. 4:04:12.240 --> 4:04:13.320 It was the Toronto Blue Jays. 4:04:13.400 --> 4:04:14.360 Yeah, but there's not. 4:04:14.320 --> 4:04:14.960 A J on it. 4:04:15.080 --> 4:04:17.480 Why well no, it just has the map, but. 4:04:17.440 --> 4:04:20.120 It's only three points. It's not a not a traditional 4:04:20.120 --> 4:04:20.600 maple leaf. 4:04:20.920 --> 4:04:23.920 James, are you gonna Are you gonna she explain my 4:04:24.160 --> 4:04:25.720 own country. 4:04:25.200 --> 4:04:28.400 To me, Garrison when it comes to birds and leaves, 4:04:28.640 --> 4:04:29.080 I am. 4:04:28.920 --> 4:04:35.400 Going to Canada explain to you it rocks. Yeah, but 4:04:35.440 --> 4:04:38.520 that's fun. That's just how tariff policy is set. Now, 4:04:38.720 --> 4:04:41.160 is you pissed off the king and he decided to 4:04:41.280 --> 4:04:41.920 put a teriff? 4:04:42.040 --> 4:04:42.480 This is. 4:04:44.200 --> 4:04:48.280 I don't know, I don't really know how to do 4:04:48.360 --> 4:04:50.240 analysis of the fact that we just have a child 4:04:50.400 --> 4:04:53.600 king setting tariff policy. It's it's great. 4:04:53.680 --> 4:04:56.600 Look quick, fact, Jack, do you read can you read this? 4:04:56.760 --> 4:04:56.880 Oh? 4:04:56.880 --> 4:04:57.080 Wow? 4:04:57.120 --> 4:04:58.320 It does say Blue Jays. 4:04:59.240 --> 4:05:05.040 Read this genuine m LB merchandise. Okay, wow wow wow. 4:05:05.280 --> 4:05:09.280 Yeah. They one would ever put that in fake MLB merchandise, Yeah, 4:05:09.600 --> 4:05:10.640 wouldn't be allowed. 4:05:11.920 --> 4:05:14.840 I've never seen any genuine MLB merchandise in markets in 4:05:14.840 --> 4:05:15.920 a Rocks for example. 4:05:16.160 --> 4:05:21.360 Yeah, Hey, I'm the owner of a proud Fixing Gan 4:05:21.520 --> 4:05:23.280 shirt that I bought at a market in there. 4:05:24.000 --> 4:05:28.000 All right, all right, all right, everybody, Okay. I think 4:05:28.040 --> 4:05:30.560 it's politically important for the Blue Jays to win the 4:05:30.600 --> 4:05:35.480 World Series and contribute to the American Century of humiliation. 4:05:36.720 --> 4:05:39.520 I still have my my Tumberland boots that I bought 4:05:39.560 --> 4:05:41.920 in Syria. 4:05:40.960 --> 4:05:44.920 Yeah, I have a five dot one dot one jacket. 4:05:45.120 --> 4:05:46.840 Oh and I've got it. I got a greater Adotus 4:05:46.920 --> 4:05:48.520 track suit when I was in Istanbul. 4:05:49.960 --> 4:05:52.520 Do you want to do this fallection right now? 4:05:52.520 --> 4:05:55.440 And yeah, let's do it now. Let's talk about talking 4:05:55.480 --> 4:05:59.760 of things which are not as they seem. California Attorney General, 4:06:00.160 --> 4:06:02.320 look at that Charason. That is why they pay me 4:06:02.360 --> 4:06:08.760 the medium bugs. California Attorney General Rob Bonter is warning. 4:06:08.520 --> 4:06:09.680 Such a fake guess name. 4:06:09.720 --> 4:06:15.520 I'm sorry, sorry, Garrison is wearing that hat for those 4:06:15.640 --> 4:06:18.000 not watching this podcast. On top of the head in 4:06:18.040 --> 4:06:22.200 the fashion of affairs, California Attorney General Rob Bonte is 4:06:22.240 --> 4:06:26.560 wannering about election interference by the federal government. The federal 4:06:26.560 --> 4:06:30.160 government has sent monitors to California to a number of 4:06:30.200 --> 4:06:34.480 different counties in California in order to monitor the elections 4:06:34.480 --> 4:06:36.920 that are happening here on the fourth of November. To 4:06:37.000 --> 4:06:42.320 be clear, federal monitoring is not uncommon. The Biden administration 4:06:42.440 --> 4:06:45.360 did it in more than eighty places in twenty twenty four, 4:06:45.440 --> 4:06:48.880 for example. But BoNT seems convinced this monitoring is going 4:06:48.920 --> 4:06:52.400 to lead to election denial. Elector interference. Here's Gavin Newsom 4:06:52.440 --> 4:06:53.760 talking on X about this. 4:06:54.320 --> 4:06:58.040 So today the trop administration announced they're sending election monitors 4:06:58.080 --> 4:07:01.680 to five specific counties here in the state of California. 4:07:01.760 --> 4:07:03.960 They have no business doing that, they have no basis 4:07:03.960 --> 4:07:06.920 to do that. In fact, we have a state wide 4:07:07.160 --> 4:07:12.640 election for a statewide constitution. This is about voter intimidation. 4:07:12.720 --> 4:07:16.120 This is about voter suppression, period, full stop. And it's 4:07:16.160 --> 4:07:18.680 a pattern, isn't it. It's consistent with what they've done 4:07:18.800 --> 4:07:21.720 with the federalization of the National Guard and the intimidation 4:07:21.800 --> 4:07:24.240 of the chill that that's created. They'll do that right 4:07:24.240 --> 4:07:26.920 around election day as well. Same thing with ice and 4:07:27.000 --> 4:07:27.680 Border Patrol. 4:07:27.760 --> 4:07:30.480 Mass men watch that space showing up. 4:07:30.360 --> 4:07:33.800 In and around polling booths and voting places. But this 4:07:34.440 --> 4:07:36.920 is a bridge too far, and I hope people understand 4:07:36.960 --> 4:07:39.400 it's a bridge that they're trying to build a scaffolding 4:07:39.600 --> 4:07:43.320 for all across this country and next Novembers election. They 4:07:43.360 --> 4:07:47.360 do not believe in fair and free elections. Our republic, 4:07:47.400 --> 4:07:50.680 our democracy is on the line. We all need to 4:07:50.720 --> 4:07:51.160 wake up. 4:07:51.760 --> 4:07:54.640 I met Monkencerne with the stuff around that. I think 4:07:54.640 --> 4:07:58.640 he's probably right that we will see like more federal 4:07:59.160 --> 4:08:03.240 agents around polling places in election time. What California was 4:08:03.280 --> 4:08:06.920 doing in response is assigning monitors to monitor the federal monitors, 4:08:07.600 --> 4:08:11.880 which will be interesting and it seems unusual, right for 4:08:11.920 --> 4:08:14.520 the federal monitors be monitoring. Think that one of the 4:08:14.560 --> 4:08:17.040 things that's on the ballot this year is Prop fifty right, 4:08:17.080 --> 4:08:21.080 which would redistrict California. It's jerry mandering, so jerry mandering proposition. 4:08:20.680 --> 4:08:25.880 To it's revenge gerrymandering character Jerry The bill is specifically 4:08:25.960 --> 4:08:28.360 we not we're going to do this, but we're going 4:08:28.400 --> 4:08:32.360 to do this if the there's redistricting in Texas. 4:08:32.600 --> 4:08:36.480 Yeah, yeah, it's yes, it's an attempt to rectify the 4:08:36.600 --> 4:08:38.800 very obvious gary mandering Texas. 4:08:38.600 --> 4:08:42.480 It's kind of mad. Mutually asserted destruction is applied to 4:08:42.840 --> 4:08:43.360 Jerry Man. 4:08:43.520 --> 4:08:48.160 Yeah yeah, yeah. Neither of these things are great. That's 4:08:48.200 --> 4:08:50.760 here we are. I think that's what I had on 4:08:50.800 --> 4:08:51.800 this Actually cool. 4:08:52.440 --> 4:08:52.680 Yep. 4:08:52.800 --> 4:08:55.920 I think that's that's U E eisode. That's where we're at, 4:08:56.160 --> 4:08:57.600 all right, everybody. 4:08:57.400 --> 4:09:04.400 Well, until breaking autism news, God Texas is suing Thailand 4:09:04.400 --> 4:09:07.720 and all specifically a pharmacytic company Johnston Johnson for marketing 4:09:07.800 --> 4:09:09.520 tile and all the pregnant women and failing to disclose. 4:09:09.560 --> 4:09:12.560 But a turny general can Paxton calls quote a significantly 4:09:12.600 --> 4:09:15.520 increased risk of autism and other disorders unquote. 4:09:15.640 --> 4:09:18.600 They don't market it to pregnant women. Like Geremany. 4:09:19.480 --> 4:09:22.120 It says like if I'm not mistaken, it says on 4:09:22.160 --> 4:09:25.440 the bottles, don't take if your nurse you're pregnant. 4:09:25.040 --> 4:09:28.440 We covered this in a previous episode. But like Germany, 4:09:28.520 --> 4:09:31.920 drugs are not very few drugs are marketed to pregnant people, right, 4:09:32.000 --> 4:09:32.960 be the women or otherwise. 4:09:33.040 --> 4:09:33.240 Yeah. 4:09:33.320 --> 4:09:35.280 No, the only thing you're supposed to take is a 4:09:35.280 --> 4:09:37.440 pregnant woman is cocaine, and you got to make sure 4:09:37.440 --> 4:09:37.960 it's pure. 4:09:38.200 --> 4:09:39.800 Non Binary people thought you can take anything. 4:09:39.880 --> 4:09:42.160 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you're If you're not pregnant, it's 4:09:42.200 --> 4:09:43.040 okay to do whatever. 4:09:43.360 --> 4:09:45.360 Yeah, if you are pregnant, not a woman, it's okay, 4:09:45.840 --> 4:09:46.320 go right. 4:09:46.240 --> 4:09:49.600 Hell yeah yeah sure, yes, wait, no, I don't think 4:09:49.680 --> 4:09:50.880 that that's how it works. 4:09:52.040 --> 4:09:54.720 Transmasting double yeah yeah, yeah, true. 4:09:54.720 --> 4:09:56.960 I think if you have a fetus gest dating in you, 4:09:56.960 --> 4:09:58.760 you're only supposed to do cocaine. 4:09:59.080 --> 4:10:03.040 Definitely the least autistic for people, non binary people. Yeah, 4:10:03.080 --> 4:10:07.280 definitely definitely. They can just take whatever or do or 4:10:07.320 --> 4:10:07.960 do take whatever. 4:10:08.160 --> 4:10:10.120 Yeah, too many drugs like like they'll they'll say that 4:10:10.120 --> 4:10:11.720 you should consult with it with your doctor. 4:10:11.760 --> 4:10:12.520 Consulted doctor. 4:10:12.640 --> 4:10:14.880 Yeah, and none of them are risk free. But it's 4:10:14.920 --> 4:10:16.800 it's it's a cost benefit analysis, right. 4:10:16.800 --> 4:10:20.400 We covered this the autism and Thailand all like correlation 4:10:20.600 --> 4:10:24.800 versus causation based on that one Sweeter s this is. 4:10:25.280 --> 4:10:28.080 I'm interested to see how Johnston and Johnson argues this 4:10:28.120 --> 4:10:31.280 in court and if that will have effects across you know, 4:10:31.400 --> 4:10:34.440 the rest of the Trump of administration's anti Thailand all push. 4:10:34.680 --> 4:10:37.120 If they're able to successfully defend their product against Ken 4:10:37.160 --> 4:10:41.960 Paxton so critical support sant Thailand. All, I guess. 4:10:41.720 --> 4:10:45.320 Welcome to the resistance, Big pharma Jesus. 4:10:45.440 --> 4:10:48.600 Yeah, if people listen to more and that we can 4:10:48.640 --> 4:10:50.200 get back and find out previous episode. 4:10:50.360 --> 4:10:53.920 All right, everybody, until next time, try not to be 4:10:54.000 --> 4:10:59.400 on a fishing boat anywhere south of the US southern border. 4:11:00.760 --> 4:11:01.880 It's not safe right now. 4:11:02.240 --> 4:11:04.240 Good luck trick or treating. Happy Halloween. 4:11:04.320 --> 4:11:06.840 Yeah, good love trick or treating. It's not safe right now. 4:11:07.120 --> 4:11:08.800 Oh yeah, don't be trick or treating in a boat. 4:11:08.840 --> 4:11:13.160 This year we've reported the news that sucks. 4:11:13.280 --> 4:11:16.320 Yeah, we reported the news. 4:11:21.000 --> 4:11:21.200 Hey. 4:11:21.320 --> 4:11:24.400 We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from 4:11:24.440 --> 4:11:26.120 now until the heat death of the universe. 4:11:26.880 --> 4:11:29.400 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 4:11:29.560 --> 4:11:32.640 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4:11:32.720 --> 4:11:36.280 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 4:11:36.360 --> 4:11:39.920 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 4:11:39.960 --> 4:11:42.280 now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly 4:11:42.320 --> 4:11:44.600 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.