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Speaker 1: All media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. It's

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Speaker 1: a very special round table podcast today where we're going

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Speaker 1: to discuss the United States ongoing campaign of bombing small

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Speaker 1: boats in the Caribbean. I'm joined by Michael Palberg, an

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Speaker 1: associate professor of political science at vir Junior Commonwealth University

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Speaker 1: and a fellow at the Center for National Policy. Hi Michael,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: And Andrew is also here. Listeners of the show will

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Speaker 1: be familiar with Andrew's work. He joins very often. In

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Speaker 1: this instance, Andrew is talking as someone who is from

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Speaker 1: Trinidad and Tobago, which of course is very much being

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Speaker 1: impacted by this. Hey Andrew, Hey, what's going on much? Well,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about what's going on, because something quite constantial

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Speaker 1: is going on. What's going on is that the United

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Speaker 1: States is carrying out a campaign of drone strikes against

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Speaker 1: small vessels in the Caribbean. As far as we know,

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Speaker 1: there have been seven strikes. At least thirty two people

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Speaker 1: have been killed, two people have been detained and then repatriated,

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Speaker 1: and a number of vessels have been struck. The US

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Speaker 1: it's bringing its war on terrorism logic to the Western hemisphere.

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Speaker 1: Rate it's claiming that it's fighting narco terrorism, and it's

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Speaker 1: claiming that these boats are for the most part carrying

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Speaker 1: Venezuelan nationals coming out of Venezuela. We've heard from Colombia

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Speaker 1: that one Colombian national has been killed, the two people

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Speaker 1: who are detained, and Ecuadorian and Colombian to Trinidadian or

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Speaker 1: Trinidad and Tobago nationals have been killed as well. And

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Speaker 1: this has sparked something of a and what it was

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Speaker 1: a war of words, now it seems to be a

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Speaker 1: war of more than that, like tariffs and sanctions. And

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Speaker 1: if Columbia has withdrawn their diplomats from DC as of

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Speaker 1: today or yesterday, so it sparks significant political turmoil in

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Speaker 1: the Western hemisphere. I think we have a really good

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Speaker 1: panel to talk about that. So to begin with, I

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Speaker 1: guess we should start, Michael, Can you explain their accusation here?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Is that these people are members of TRENDERRAA or potentially

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Speaker 1: some other cartels that the Trump administration likes to talk about.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about the prevalence of those groups, but can

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Speaker 1: you explain very briefly what they are and I suppose

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Speaker 1: the function that they have in Venezuela or what they're

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Speaker 1: doing there versus what's been claimed that they're doing.

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Speaker 4: So sure, I do research on organized crime in Latin

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Speaker 4: America and ren de Aragua is a real organized criminal

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Speaker 4: group in Venezuela and now all over Latin America. It

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Speaker 4: is a street gang that started out as a prison gang.

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Speaker 4: It does not primarily engage in international drug trafficking, moving

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Speaker 4: large quantities of drugs across national borders or across oceans.

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Speaker 4: It is primarily engaged in human trafficking.

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Speaker 3: And extortion rackets.

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Speaker 4: And it primarily follows the Venezuelan Niaskara people who have

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Speaker 4: left Venezuela.

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Speaker 3: And at this point it's an.

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Speaker 4: Incredible twenty percent of the population over the last ten

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Speaker 4: years of Maduro's presidency, so nearly eight million people wherever

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Speaker 4: they go, and they take advantage of them, they extort

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Speaker 4: them for money. They will also take money to move

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Speaker 4: them across borders. But they're not a cartel in the

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Speaker 4: way that we traditionally think about cartels like the Sinalo

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Speaker 4: cartel or some of the Colombian cartels that that are

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Speaker 4: engaged in international cocaine trafficking. And so it's highly unlikely

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Speaker 4: that if the Drum administration is striking boats that they

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Speaker 4: claim to be vessels transporting cocaine or Vensional, which is

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Speaker 4: not made in Venezuela. It's primarily made in Mexico using

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Speaker 4: precursor chemicals from China, and recently it's actually made the

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Speaker 4: United States. Even that it's a tile synthetic drug, that's possible,

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Speaker 4: and Venezuela, of course is not one of the countries

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Speaker 4: where coca is grown and therefore cocaine comes from. If

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Speaker 4: they are indeed striking drug boats, then they probably wouldn't

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Speaker 4: be traded Atauga. And if they're striking boats with Brenda ar Aagua,

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Speaker 4: they would be most likely striking migrant smuggling vessels, in

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Speaker 4: which case the death count would likely be much higher.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we should talk about the other Caribbean nations. Now,

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Speaker 1: I guess I want to talk about trendent Tobago, but

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Speaker 1: we should probably cover Columbia first, right, because we've seen

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Speaker 1: significant pushback from Petro, President of Columbia, and then we've

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Speaker 1: recently seen the President of the United States accused Petro,

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Speaker 1: who is again President of Columbia, of being a drug

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Speaker 1: trafficker himself, which is a fairy ludicrous claim on the

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Speaker 1: face of it. But let's talk about Petro because he

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Speaker 1: has some background in opposition to organize crime and drug smuggling. Actually, right,

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Speaker 1: like he's been in this for a while. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain a little bit of his career and then his

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Speaker 1: recent stances.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So Petro is a mercurial figure in Columbia politics,

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Speaker 4: has been for a long time. He is known for

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Speaker 4: starting his career as a gorilla with a minor anti

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Speaker 4: government guerrilla movement called the M nineteen Movement.

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Speaker 3: Now, this is the.

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Speaker 4: Movement which I don't know, maybe Western audiences are familiar

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Speaker 4: with from the Netflix series Narcos, for having participated carried

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Speaker 4: out the Palace of Justice siege at the Columbian Supreme Court,

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Speaker 4: which was a major design during which the Clemian military

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Speaker 4: went in guns blazing to rescue hostages of Supreme Court

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Speaker 4: justices and other people just employed in the Palace of Justice,

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Speaker 4: and most everyone died in a fire as a result.

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Speaker 4: Petro was not involved in that operation as far as

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Speaker 4: anyone knows. He was not involved in a violent comportations.

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Speaker 4: And this organization, unlike the FARK and the LN never

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Speaker 4: really got on the cocaine money train and therefore didn't

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Speaker 4: last as long as those other organizations did. They did demobilize,

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Speaker 4: they did turn to peaceful politics, and Petro began his

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Speaker 4: political career at the local level Bogota and then eventually

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Speaker 4: reached the presidency. So he is someone with a long

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Speaker 4: political career and does have a constituency, does have a base,

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Speaker 4: and he is the first truly left wing leader of Columbia,

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Speaker 4: country that has been famously both ruled by the right

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Speaker 4: and also very closely allied to the US. It's really

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Speaker 4: the US's top out lie in Latin America, well in

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Speaker 4: South America, at least specifically on security, given Plant Columbia

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Speaker 4: and a long history of US giving as much as

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Speaker 4: ten billion dollars over time to beef up Colombia's counterinsurgency

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Speaker 4: and counter narcotics fights on our behalf.

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Speaker 1: Yet too, he's a president of being a drug craft

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Speaker 1: for is fairly ludicrous, like he's been, like even in

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Speaker 1: his time as a senator, right, he was like I

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Speaker 1: think he was sharing some like investigations or committees that

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Speaker 1: looked to drug smuggling, if I remember correctly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And so I would say Petro has been very

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Speaker 4: critical of the War on Drugs approach generally, but he

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Speaker 4: does still inherit this long standing deep relationship with the

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Speaker 4: United States, and he's not exactly a full on peacenick

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Speaker 4: when it comes to his own internal security. He did

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Speaker 4: come it off as promising what he called total peace Possibal,

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Speaker 4: a platform that was meant to put an end to

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Speaker 4: all armed in certainties in the country by making a

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Speaker 4: deal with the remaining combatant groups, namely the ELN, the

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Speaker 4: dissident bar guerrillas, those who did not agree to the

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Speaker 4: peace deal signed by Santos in twenty sixteen, and what's

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Speaker 4: in different terms called the Klandel Gordfo or the AGC.

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Speaker 4: The guy thamis self defense forces but one of the

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Speaker 4: largest national narco paramilitary group that descends from the old

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Speaker 4: AUC and he has failed in that and talks have

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Speaker 4: broken off with those.

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Speaker 3: Other armed groups.

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Speaker 4: Colombia has gone back to war against them. The ELN

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Speaker 4: has engaged in some pretty horrific violence, including a suicide

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Speaker 4: car bombing the police barracks and the distant farc as

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Speaker 4: well taking down a helicopter and a drone attack. So

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Speaker 4: there has been a return to fairly high level, you know,

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Speaker 4: armed insurgency in Colombia, even if it's nowhere near the

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Speaker 4: level it was from the late nineties and early two thousands.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And all of this is happening in the Caribbean,

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Speaker 1: which is not a vast ocean, right, It's not a

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Speaker 1: massive area of space. And as Andrew and I were

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Speaker 1: talking about before we recorded, this has impacted other Caribbean nations,

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Speaker 1: nations which are not the target of the Trump administration's

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Speaker 1: aggression but nonetheless are being subjected to it. Do you

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Speaker 1: want to talk, Andrew, Trinida and Tobago's in a particularly

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Speaker 1: interesting the right word, It's not a great situation, right,

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Speaker 1: because Trinidadian people are being killed at least two indeed,

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Speaker 1: and the government is apparently completely unconcerned with this.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I suppose I should provide some context. So there

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Speaker 6: have been seven strikes to date and the fifth strike

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Speaker 6: results in the deaths of two fishermen, the village of

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Speaker 6: Las Cuevas in Trinantobago being claimed among the victims. The

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Speaker 6: governments Transpigo has not made a statement about it, and

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Speaker 6: the families have not really been contacted or providing any

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Speaker 6: sort of support. Now, for those who are listening who

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Speaker 6: may not know where Trinantopago is, it is an independent

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Speaker 6: twin island republic in the Caribbean, and it's actually geographically

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Speaker 6: an extension of South America. There's a gulf that separates it,

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Speaker 6: but it's about eleven kilometers away from Venezuela itself. And

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Speaker 6: our elections that took place this year led to the

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Speaker 6: removal of the incumbent party and the return of the

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Speaker 6: United National Congress, the political party led by Camera Posada Prossessor,

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Speaker 6: claiming the government in a sweep landslide. Really, but despite

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Speaker 6: that landslide, it wasn't really the result of popular support

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Speaker 6: for the United National Congress. It was more so the

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Speaker 6: lack of support for the previous party, the People's National Movement,

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Speaker 6: which lost I believe two hundred thousand or so of

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Speaker 6: their usual voters just didn't show up to vote for

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Speaker 6: them this election, So the opposition party came into power

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Speaker 6: when the opposition party wasn't the opposition. They in many

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Speaker 6: ways appeared to just oppose for opposing's sake. They were

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Speaker 6: in power previously from twenty ten to twenty fifteen, but

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Speaker 6: they were voted out due to, among other things, corruption,

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Speaker 6: and since then the party has further evolved into a

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Speaker 6: sort of personality cult centered around came Pusser Prossessor, and

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Speaker 6: her politics have also evolved in that time to align

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Speaker 6: further and further toward the United States position. She's become

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Speaker 6: something of a Trump Stan you know. She was kind

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Speaker 6: of towing his line on a lot of issues. She

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Speaker 6: supported Guido Juan Guido as the president of Venezuela and

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Speaker 6: actually went so far while she was an opposition leader

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Speaker 6: to call on the United States to sanction Trinantobago after

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Speaker 6: the vice President of Venezuela had made a visit to

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Speaker 6: the country to meet with the then Prime Minister Keith Rowley.

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Speaker 6: So she has made her pro Washington stands clear for

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Speaker 6: a very long time and as she's come into power,

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Speaker 6: she has divoted our alignment with our regional bloc, the

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Speaker 6: Caribbean Community cara COM and their call for the Caribbean

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Speaker 6: to remain a zone of peace, and emphasized her continued

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Speaker 6: endorsement for the US military's deployment outside of Venezuela's territorial waters,

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Speaker 6: but still very much belligerent in her approach to this issue.

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Speaker 6: You know, we have gone from a state that was

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Speaker 6: respected as a non aligned entity that was able to

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Speaker 6: approach various diplomatic partners from the US to China, to

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Speaker 6: the eute in Yale to Venezuela as well, and we've

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Speaker 6: gone from that sort of diplomatic approach to a very

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Speaker 6: clear pro West stance that has really alienated US from

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Speaker 6: the rest of the region and really placed US almost

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Speaker 6: in the position of being a satellite state for US policy.

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Speaker 6: You know, she's been inviting the US military if they

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Speaker 6: want to base the operations Auto Turinad. She has opened

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Speaker 6: our doors to that. She has called for the US

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Speaker 6: to kill them all violently extraditionally, and stated that she

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Speaker 6: is perfectly aligned with what the US is doing in

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Speaker 6: the region, despite its flagrant violations of international law.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said earlier, right that them in this

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Speaker 1: instance includes at least two of her own citizens.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: And I will say that this sort of Zone of

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Speaker 6: East designation for the Caribbean, it is something that I

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Speaker 6: would this is my personal opinion and consider more of

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Speaker 6: a hopeful ideal rather than a reality. You know, the

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Speaker 6: trafficking that takes place in the region does visit a

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Speaker 6: lot of violence upon people. Is you know, by no

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Speaker 6: means in reality a zone of peace. Even before the

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Speaker 6: US's actions in the region. However, though we may not

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Speaker 6: fit that postcard perfect perception of you know, tropical paradise,

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Speaker 6: it is still necessary, I think for us to stand

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Speaker 6: in solidarity as a region, to speak with one voice

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Speaker 6: when it comes to these issues, especially as a continued

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Speaker 6: existence depends on the observation of international law. The respect

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Speaker 6: for the UN Charter as small islands or safety is

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Speaker 6: really in numbers.

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Speaker 7: And for the.

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Speaker 6: Prime Minister to deviate from that solidarity in such a

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Speaker 6: blatant way, it's really quite sad. But it shouldn't come

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Speaker 6: as a surprise because there have been efforts by the

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Speaker 6: US to divide Cara con in the past. During his

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Speaker 6: first term, Trump had pulled some Cara Con countries into

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Speaker 6: the LIMA Group, which was a US promoted coalition of

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Speaker 6: right wing governments that was push in for regime change

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Speaker 6: in Venezuela. And he's not doing the same thing with

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Speaker 6: trying to get some Caracon governments to facilitate his actions

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Speaker 6: towards Venezuela. They approached Grenada recently to try and get

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Speaker 6: Grenada's assistance in basing a satellite there on the island.

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Speaker 6: And it's really ironic that they would approach Grenada, which

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Speaker 6: is also quite close to Venezuela, because Grenada is famously

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Speaker 6: one of the countries that the United States invaded in

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Speaker 6: October of nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I know. I say this a lot,

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Speaker 1: but if you've listened to the song Washington Bullets by

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Speaker 1: the Clash, and then you go to the border, you

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Speaker 1: can kind of join up all the people from all

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Speaker 1: the countries mentioned there and the outcome of US policy

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Speaker 1: and what that does to migration over time. We should

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Speaker 1: talk about the Venezuelan opposition. I guess, Michael, would you

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Speaker 1: give I've done a pretty in depth discussion of Venezuela,

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Speaker 1: a place where I have spent a decent amount of time,

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Speaker 1: like I wanted to see that revolution myself when I

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Speaker 1: was like nineteen and I was studying political science that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to see what this like Pink Tide was about.

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Speaker 1: And I have reported a lot on Venezuelan migrants people

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Speaker 1: who are in new to the show. I guess the

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Speaker 1: series I did from the Darien Gap would be where

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Speaker 1: I would point you for my discussion of Venezuela and

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Speaker 1: Venezuelan people. I still speak to people of Venezuela almost

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Speaker 1: every day, but I think people could do myc with

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Speaker 1: like a high level overview of the Venezuelan opposition. I

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Speaker 1: guess we can talk about that about prize as well, which,

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Speaker 1: despite what Donald Trump is saying, was not awarded to

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Speaker 1: him this year.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So the big news is that Maria Quina Machado, who

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Speaker 4: is the leader of the Venezuelan opposition as we as

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Speaker 4: we know it today, was award of the Nobel Prize,

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Speaker 4: which was a bit of a surprise and from a

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Speaker 4: very US centric analysis. One idea that has been floated

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Speaker 4: is that the Nobel Committee didn't want to award Trump

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Speaker 4: the prize, but thought that maybe awarding it to an

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Speaker 4: ally of Trump would we be away to modify Trump

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Speaker 4: also possibly to encourage.

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Speaker 3: Him to take a more peaceful approach at a.

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Speaker 4: Time that the US is threatening armed intervention in some

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Speaker 4: way in Venezuela, whether that is a counternarcotics operation or

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Speaker 4: more likely a regime change operation of some kind, even

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Speaker 4: though it's very unclear how they would get to regime

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Speaker 4: change from blowing up boats, Wrea can blowing up people.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we should pause and talk about regime change actually,

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Speaker 1: because I like it's such a problematic idea. Right we

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Speaker 1: have attempted regime changes. My career for the last several

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Speaker 1: years has been reporting on the United States failed attempts

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Speaker 1: to facilitate regime chams all over the world, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not something we're very good at. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that the United States is going to invade maybe do

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Speaker 1: you think differently? But I think we probably agree that

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Speaker 1: the United States is unlikely to do like an Iraq

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Speaker 1: style invasion of Venezuela. Can you explain the like why

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Speaker 1: I suppose just just for people who you know, think

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Speaker 1: that that's what's happening in the Caribbean at the moment

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Speaker 1: with this concentration of forces.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's undlikely to happen, because well, it's a very

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Speaker 4: large country and it would take a lot more troops

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Speaker 4: than what are currently deployed, which is approaching ten thousand now.

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Speaker 4: But that's actually that includes all sorts of logistical support.

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Speaker 4: The actual fighting force, the Marine Expeditionary Unit is actually

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Speaker 4: a much smaller I've lived in Panama as a kid,

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Speaker 4: and I was not old enough to be there for

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Speaker 4: the invasion, but I lived there some years after that.

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Speaker 4: That's probably the closest analog to this, at least the

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Speaker 4: way that the Trump administration is promoting this, which is

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Speaker 4: to say, a regime change operation that is disguised as

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Speaker 4: a counter narcotics operation. Famously, nor Diega, it was not

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Speaker 4: a war. It was an arrest of a foreign leader

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Speaker 4: who was indeed involved in drug trafficking. And we knew

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Speaker 4: that because he was literally a CIA asset whose drug

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Speaker 4: trafficking was being protected as long as he was allied

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Speaker 4: with the US against Cuban backed rebel groups in Central America.

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Speaker 4: But at some point later he became too much of

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Speaker 4: embarrassment for the US. Was genuinely a brutal guy. Pulled

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Speaker 4: off the torture murder of Google Spot offortile, all sorts

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Speaker 4: of nasty things. But the big difference is at that

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Speaker 4: time and when I lived there, the US had multiple

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Speaker 4: military basis in Panama. Panama was the headquarters of the

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Speaker 4: US Southern Command, the Western Hemisphere, headquarters.

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Speaker 3: Of the Pentagon.

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Speaker 4: We had thirteen thousand troops already there ready to go.

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Speaker 4: I think they doubled that for the invasion, which was

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Speaker 4: officially termed Operation Just Cause, usually called Operation Blue Spoon.

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Speaker 3: But they had to come with the sex of your day.

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Speaker 4: And of course Panama is a tiny country and Venezuela

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Speaker 4: is twenty times larger than Panama.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's fuss, so it's very odd.

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Speaker 4: It's obviously they have deployed many more troops and a

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Speaker 4: much larger fleet than it's necessary for a counter narcotics operation. Incidentally,

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Speaker 4: it's the US Coast Guard that carries out counter narcotics

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Speaker 4: interdictions and does it very effectively, and incidentally does it

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Speaker 4: with the cooperation of other countries which coordinate intelligence or

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Speaker 4: just simply surveillance of suspicious ships or boats or planes

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Speaker 4: and tip off the US Coast Guard. Even the Cuban

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Speaker 4: government does that. In fact, it's the Coast Guard that

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Speaker 4: is the US agency that has the best relationships with Cuba.

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Speaker 4: It's oftentimes diplomacy kind of starts with the Coastguard's ties

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Speaker 4: with Cuba. But anyway, that aside, it doesn't make sense

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Speaker 4: from a counter narcotics standpoint, because look, if you actually

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Speaker 4: wanted to break up a cartel, what do you do?

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Speaker 4: I mean, if you are a prosecutor investigator, right, you

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Speaker 4: capture the smugglers, you seize the cargo, the contraband, which

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Speaker 4: is evidence. Then you try to flip them up for

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Speaker 4: immunity for whoever your real targets are. Maybe your target

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Speaker 4: is Maduro or someone else in the regime. But you

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Speaker 4: can't do that when you kill everyone on the boat. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 4: And I think the fact that in I think the

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Speaker 4: latest boat strike, they didn't manage to kill everyone, and

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Speaker 4: a couple of them got away, and then the US,

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Speaker 4: rather than charge them with a crime, they just turned

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Speaker 4: them back around. And you would think that if the

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Speaker 4: US is so certain that the people on those boats

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Speaker 4: are drug trafficking terrorists that they want to kill them,

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Speaker 4: then you'd think they would have enough evidence to charge

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Speaker 4: them to prosecute them of them. Apparently not. So this

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Speaker 4: is all to say the idea that this is a

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Speaker 4: counternarcocks operation doesn't hold up.

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Speaker 3: Clearly.

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Speaker 4: It is meant to be more of a regime change operation,

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Speaker 4: but again I don't see how the one leads to

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Speaker 4: the other. I believe that Trump thinks that if he

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Speaker 4: just saber rattles a little bit and possibly tries some

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Speaker 4: decapitation strikes the way that the US did on Soleimani

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Speaker 4: and Iran, that's somehow the regime is going to collapse,

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Speaker 4: and that does not make any sense. Maduro has surrounded

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Speaker 4: himself with the security, a lot of it, including through

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Speaker 4: Cuban advisors.

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Speaker 8: He keeps his whereabouts very secret.

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Speaker 4: Even if somehow they were to drone strike him, it's

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Speaker 4: not as if the regime as a whole would all

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Speaker 4: because it is an extremely militarized regime that is upheld

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Speaker 4: by the armed forces who are not going to break

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Speaker 4: with him. Because they have a hand in every lucrative

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Speaker 4: business both legal and illegal, in Venezuela.

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Speaker 3: They're not going to be.

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Speaker 4: Paid off or not be swayed by a bounty that

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Speaker 4: is currently what something like fifty million dollars. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there are people around Madula that have made upwards of

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Speaker 4: a billion dollars in oil rents. So it's not like

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Speaker 4: you could pay off people to betray either.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not. Nor is it like a cult

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Speaker 1: of personality situation, like certainly not. Now, Java has had

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Speaker 1: something of a sort of charismatic leadership role, but Madula

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Speaker 1: is not that. So let's talk about the opposition in

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Speaker 1: Venezuela in so much as like I guess if we

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Speaker 1: go back to the election last year, right, that start

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Speaker 1: with the election and explain to people what happened there

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Speaker 1: and then the subsequent sort of avenues that are now

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Speaker 1: open or the avenues of that opposition and is now exploring,

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Speaker 1: if that's okay.

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Speaker 4: But there was an election quote unquote that took place

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Speaker 4: last year. It was broker largely by the US. The

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Speaker 4: US under the my administration was pushing for some kind

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Speaker 4: of negotiations between the opposition and Venezuelan government. They convinced

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Speaker 4: enough people in the opposition to stand for elections under

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Speaker 4: what was called the Barbados Agreement in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 4: And this was meant to be in exchange of partial

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Speaker 4: lifting the sectoral sanctions that have been in place on

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Speaker 4: Venezuela for a long time, in which the Trump administration.

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Speaker 4: The first Trump administration really tightened in exchange for the

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Speaker 4: Vodora government agreeing to stand for elections, and those elections

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Speaker 4: happened last year. It was pretty clear from free electoral

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Speaker 4: surveys and from exit polls and from the vote returns

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Speaker 4: that were coming in at the time, that the opposite Cacada,

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Speaker 4: was going to win by an enormous march, by a

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Speaker 4: thirty five point margin. The candidate was officially in Mundo Gonzales,

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Speaker 4: but he was candidates mostly because Murray Cornea and Matado,

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Speaker 4: the now Nobel Prize laureate, was barred from running. So

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Speaker 4: she for blessing to Gonzales to be basically her proxy,

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Speaker 4: and people were more or less voting for both of them,

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Speaker 4: so to speak. But both he and her are much

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Speaker 4: more popular. Maduro, who by all accounts as an extremely

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Speaker 4: unpopular leader, especially in contrast to as you said, Ugu Chavas, who,

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Speaker 4: for all his faults, was a genuinely charismatic yeah leader,

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Speaker 4: and you know, he did stand for elections and win them,

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Speaker 4: you know, pretty convincingly.

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Speaker 8: Incidentally, oil the.

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Speaker 4: Price of oil was about one hundred dollars a barrel

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Speaker 4: when he was president, and he was able to spend

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Speaker 4: a lot on social programs, but that is sid Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it helps. Madudo is pretty unpopular with this point. He

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Speaker 4: is pretty widely seen as both a tyrant and also

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Speaker 4: quite incompetent at managing basic state services. So he was

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Speaker 4: going to lose unless he stole the what he did.

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Speaker 4: The CNE the Vegetlain and Election Board announced that he

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Speaker 4: had won with just fifty one percent of the vote,

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Speaker 4: which is I have to say, I give him credit

437
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 4: for being subtle. I expected them to announce that he

438
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 4: won with like ninety nine percent of the vote.

439
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a sad margin.

440
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, No one believed it, And I have to

441
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 4: say one of my critiques of the bottom administration is

442
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 4: that I think the whole thing was rather naive. I

443
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 4: think they calculated that somehow Maduro would let himself be

444
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: voted out of office. Maduro is we talked about under

445
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 4: a bounty, has a bounty on his head. Many people

446
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 4: in the US politics, of the US Republican in particular,

447
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 4: have promised that they're going to send him to jail.

448
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: So why would someone in that position, you know, give

449
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 4: up power. I think, you know, he saw what happened

450
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 4: to Kadafi and he's, you know, he doesn't want to

451
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 4: be jailed or killed. And at the same time, the

452
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 4: stick part of the Karen and Stick mechanism was that

453
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 4: they would simply go back to the sanctions that existed before,

454
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: which was called a snapback. And these those sanctions that

455
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 4: the Venezuelan government has weathered for for many, many years,

456
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 4: so it's not really that much of a disincentive. So anyway,

457
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 4: everyone basically admits at this point that he stole the election,

458
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 4: but what are you going to do about it? The opposition,

459
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 4: for its part, has taken different approaches to how to

460
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: confront him and is famously very divided. The Venezuelan opposition

461
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 4: has never really been on the same page. They've never

462
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 4: really had an uncontested leader. Bray CORNEYA Machado is about

463
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 4: the closest they have had, but she herself really represents

464
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 4: more one wing of the opposition, the more you might

465
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 4: say hard line wing. For a long time, there was

466
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 4: a hard line wing personify by Lopez, and there was

467
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 4: a more I don't know if you call it a

468
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 4: soft line or liberal or just more willing to talk

469
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 4: to the regime wing led by Capriles.

470
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: Who ran against Alto in the first election.

471
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 4: And it's even within those factions there are there competing personality.

472
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 4: It's a lot of it really is more personal and ideological.

473
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 4: But Marie Corna Machado, she is on the right politically.

474
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 4: She you know, styles herself after Margaret that she is also,

475
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 4: I will give a credit for this, a very good organizer.

476
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 4: She is famously kind of gone into communities that have

477
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 4: historically voted with the Cha Vista left and convinced many

478
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: people to leave that coalition. And also to have her credit,

479
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 4: you know, I would say she is a very brave person.

480
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: She has remained into the country at a time that

481
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 4: many most opposition leaders, including Amerdo Gonzalez A, plied the country. Yeah,

482
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 4: and she's been in hiding. She knows that the regime

483
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 4: would arrest, if not kill her at its soonest opportunity.

484
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 4: Yet she still shows up unannounced at at events, at

485
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: rallies and makes speeches. So she has achieved this kind

486
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: of mythic figure and this is something that obviously is

487
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 4: only going to grow with the Nobel Prize. So then

488
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 4: the question is what will this Nobel do. I think

489
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 4: that one calculation is that it will simply keep her alive.

490
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 4: You know, it'll be much harder for the material government

491
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 4: to kill her if you know, if they would be

492
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: killing an be laureate, So that may buy her a

493
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 4: little bit more time.

494
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: Try to best them on the first one to kill

495
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: a novel laureate.

496
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 4: I guess, right, right, yeah, But you know, will it

497
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 4: bring peace? I'm not so sure, because Marik Gordon Machaalo

498
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: has also been very closely allied and supportive of the

499
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 4: Trump administration, and her side of the opposition has been

500
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: encouraging the military strikes, backing sanctions, even though the sanctions

501
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 4: both have done nothing to dislodge Maduro and also contribute

502
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 4: to a great deal of suffering for the Venezuelan people.

503
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 4: And I have to say, look, I'm not Venezuela. I

504
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 4: have no right to give it the Venezuelan opposition advice.

505
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 4: I would say that if they have tried multiple elections,

506
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 4: you know, at least two of which have been stolen.

507
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: If they have tried, you know, you might say more

508
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 4: democratic means, and nothing has happened. I can understand why

509
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 4: many people would think that a more radical approach is

510
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: the only option left on the table. However, that approach

511
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 4: hasn't done anything either, you know, sanctions have not to

512
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 4: dislodge Maduro. Blowing up boats of possible drug traffickers, maybe

513
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: just fishermen has not done anything.

514
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: I think that nothing.

515
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 4: Appears likely to lead to regime change. But I can

516
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 4: understand the desperation of people living under what is broadly

517
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 4: acknowledged to be an extremely repressive region.

518
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just the grinding poverty of everyday life in

519
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: Venezuela is so like I've heard so many stories from

520
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: so many people of such a difficult existence there. I

521
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: can understand people's desperation, Andrew, you know, it's spoken about

522
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: it like the Gulf between the government of Trinidad and

523
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: Tobago and the people of Trinidad and Tobago right now,

524
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: And obviously the same is true in Venezuela.

525
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: Right.

526
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: It's not the opposition figures living in Spain who suffer

527
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: when we have these sanctions, Right, it's not opposition can

528
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: to get blown up when they go fishing. It's regular

529
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: working class when it's way than people. Yeah, so do

530
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: you want to talk about like, I'm not even sure

531
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: what we can do by way of solidarity with these

532
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: of these nations, But maybe you have some thoughts on that.

533
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 6: I'm honestly at something of our loss myself, speaking from

534
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 6: a small island, I think the US's superpower status is

535
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 6: almost like into an eltriche horror. It feels like it's

536
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 6: unfathomable how you could even go about approaching Other times,

537
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 6: you don't try to remind myself that people have thought,

538
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 6: and one you know, people have resisted, and one you know,

539
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 6: currently there isn't that much going on.

540
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 7: There are murmurs.

541
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 6: They are momas of fair of disdain or disagreement, of distrust.

542
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 6: In terms of grassroots effort, there's a lot still to

543
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 6: be done.

544
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 7: The leader of the move On for.

545
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 6: Social Justice, which is a small a progressive political party

546
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 6: in Toronto, Bago, it's a guy named David Abdullah, and

547
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 6: he has been part of this assembly of Caribbean people

548
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 6: who have been signing and issuing a declaration reasserting our

549
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 6: desire for peace, and that has been signed by various

550
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 6: progressive organizations, social movements and figures across the Caribbean. And

551
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 6: there was also an effort last week Thursday, that's October sixteenth,

552
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 6: to organize a regionwide day of action in defense of

553
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 6: the Caribbean, and so different actions were taking place all

554
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 6: over in fifteen countries. We had press conferences, we had

555
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 6: state months, and we had pickets at sit in US

556
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 6: embassys and public demonstrations. It was kind of in the

557
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 6: middle of the day on a Thursday, so there wasn't

558
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 6: that big of its out from Baraiso when I had gone,

559
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 6: but it shows that there is and from the at

560
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 6: least anecdotal experience, there is a desire to keep the

561
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 6: US out of the situation, you know, despite the issues

562
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 6: of the Venezuelan government, despite the issues of our own governments.

563
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 7: We don't want intervention, you know.

564
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 6: And right now, all we can really levy is our voices,

565
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 6: you know, our woods and all we can really do.

566
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 6: I think, besides protest, what is going on is prepare

567
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 6: for the worst, to ensure that we have you know,

568
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 6: sit and support systems in place in case, you know,

569
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 6: push comes to shove.

570
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty bleak, Michael. Do you have anything to

571
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: add on how people can can be in solidarity with

572
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,479
Speaker 1: the people of Venezuela currently.

573
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: Well, I've been calling for people broadly throughout the world

574
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,239
Speaker 4: to have solidarity more with people than with states, and

575
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 4: certainly with veness world people as opposed to the Venezuelan state.

576
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 4: I wrote something for the Center or International Policy about this,

577
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: and listen, you know, it's not my place to police

578
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 4: the left, so to speak. But you know, as someone

579
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 4: speaking personally who comes from the labor movement, you know,

580
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: comes from the Bernie Allied left, so to speak, you know,

581
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 4: I do think it's been a little bit uncomfortable to

582
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 4: observe how certain elements of the global left have have

583
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 4: stood up for the Madu regime, or the very least

584
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 4: been The criticism of it has been taboo. And I

585
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 4: think a lot of that is a legacy of Tapas

586
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 4: Chapas having this strong personal charisma, but also that he

587
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 4: was willing to confront the United States the Bush administration

588
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 4: at a time of the Iraq War, you know, especially

589
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 4: low point in the US's global reputation. Also Venezuela's oil

590
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 4: rants at the time, which we're financing a lot of

591
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 4: not just social programs Venezuela, but a lot of financial

592
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 4: largests to Allied states and movements around around the region.

593
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 4: So a lot of left parties reflexively defended Maduro even

594
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: as his repression and mismanagement just ramped up. I will

595
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,479
Speaker 4: say that's fading. You know, we were seeing this within

596
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 4: Latin America. First of all, there's kind of a generational divide,

597
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 4: and some of the older generational Latin American left, like

598
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 4: Lula or like Petro, have not been overwhelmingly anti Maduru,

599
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 4: but have expressed skepticism about the electoral results. But then

600
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 4: there's a younger generation such as Borich and Chile, Chile

601
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 4: and Idavolo and Guatemala who have been openly very critical

602
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 4: about Duro and want to just not let him or

603
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 4: his camp so to speak, define what it means to

604
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 4: be on the left. And really the only countries that

605
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 4: have unquestionably backed him at this point are Bolivia, Cuba,

606
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 4: but also outside of the region, Russia, Iran, China. So

607
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 4: I think that we should ask ourselves, like, who do

608
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 4: we think is a more credible arbiter of progressive values?

609
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: Is it Borich and Chile or is it Putin, you know,

610
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: even not even the commonist part of Venezuela and no

611
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 4: longer that's one of my favorite facts, as he has

612
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 4: had their militants killed, you know, allegedly as well.

613
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 8: So it's just it's not.

614
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 4: Helpful to view the world for in this campus lens.

615
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 4: You know, I think that if people, whether they identify

616
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 4: as on the left or or whatever, want to show solidarity,

617
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 4: I think it should be with the Venezuelan people, which means.

618
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 8: Listening to voices within civil society.

619
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 3: In Venezuela.

620
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 4: There are a lot of NGOs, there are a lot

621
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 4: of labor unions, there are a lot of human rights

622
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 4: advocates that are not opposition parties, that are not running

623
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 4: for office. They're not necessarily calling for regime change. Made

624
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: them very critical of sanctions, but they have tried to

625
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 4: push for better changes, you know, quality of life, you know,

626
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 4: reforms that might lead to less repression, open up more

627
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 4: space for civil society, and you know, those things are

628
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 4: necessary when people are really living.

629
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: Day by day, you know.

630
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 4: And I think that if people on the left want

631
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 4: to play the long game and understand care about the

632
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 4: prospects of the future, they need to understand that the

633
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: Maduers is the worst model for them to be associated with,

634
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 4: you know. And this has already been taking place with campaigns,

635
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 4: selectoral campaigns around Latin America where Cannon's on the right

636
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 4: run against the boogeyman of you know, Chabbismo, of like

637
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 4: of a Maduro model, and it makes sense. And if

638
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 4: a lot of people on the left are very skeptical

639
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: of Maria Croneamachado, like I have skeptism about some of

640
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: for policy platforms of you know, privatization and and other

641
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 4: neoliberal ideas, they also shouldn't be surprised if there's been

642
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 4: a decade of people being told that this model of corruption, authoritarianism,

643
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 4: state terror, criminal insecurity, that's what socialism is. Then people

644
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 4: are gonna believe that, and then they're going to then

645
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 4: their vote against whatever that is. And this model has

646
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 4: provoked you know, the greatest refugee crisis, certainly in the region,

647
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 4: eight million people.

648
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: They're all carrying.

649
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 4: With them stories about why they left right And so

650
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 4: if there ever were to be democratic collections in Venezuela,

651
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 4: it's pretty clear the country would turn to the right.

652
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 3: And I don't think we should be surprised by that,

653
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: you know.

654
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 4: And I think we should also recognize that many of

655
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 4: the things that Maludor embodies, these strong men politics, are

656
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: things that are embodied by other strong men, not just

657
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 4: on the left too.

658
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 7: You know.

659
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 4: I would just point out that least according to his son,

660
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 4: Trump has privately expressed a lot of admiration for Madudo.

661
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 4: I read John Bolton's book, and you know, the former

662
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 4: National Security Visor. You know, maybe he has a lot

663
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 4: of reasons to lie, but you know, he did say

664
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 4: that Trump privately expressed a lot of admirasy for Maludor being,

665
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 4: in his words, too smart and too tough to be overthrown.

666
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 4: You know, was really happy to see him sprounded by

667
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 4: what he called all these good looking generals. He disparage

668
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 4: one Guido calling him the Beto Rourke of Venezuela means

669
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 4: you know, so, I think that there is there's something

670
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: he said about strong men recognizing strong men, and a

671
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 4: lot of these authoritarian lesson are not limited to one

672
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 4: side of the ideological spectrum.

673
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I find that tendency on the American left

674
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: or and that sort of Internet left to be massively frustrating.

675
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: Like as someone who went there to see the revolution,

676
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: who went there to understand it, and who spent masses

677
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: of time with Venezuelan people in the Darien Gap at

678
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: the border in Venezuela, I'm very fond of Venezuelan people,

679
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: and I think, yeah, our sort of direity should be

680
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: with them, not with some strong man's state. We saw

681
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: this in Syria as well, right Like, it is heartbreaking,

682
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: genuinely heartbreaking to explain to people how someone who identifies

683
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: as a leftist is also denying that their children were

684
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: gassed by chemical weapons in Syria. Right This campus graze tendency,

685
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: and the American lefts specifically, is incredibly toxic, and anybody

686
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: who seriously considers themselves to be a lest it's massively

687
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: undermining any credibility they have when they associate themselves with

688
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: regimes which willingly murder their own people. I would like

689
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: to see people stop doing that. Perhaps both of you

690
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: could finish up by suggesting US coverage of this has

691
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: not been great, right like, it tends to focus on

692
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: the United States very much, and of Venezuela kind of

693
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: appears as a monolithic entity. Turning down Tobago rarely gets

694
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: any coverage in the US media. I did see I

695
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: think Reuter's or AP had done a piece about how

696
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: fishermen were elected to go out. I would like to

697
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: see more of that kind of reporting. Perhaps both of

698
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: you could suggest a couple of sources where people could

699
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: read about this.

700
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 6: Sure, at least on my end, I suggest looking into

701
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 6: all local news. Now, it's not the best source in

702
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 6: terms of actual interrogation of the issues and the ways

703
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 6: in which some of the narratives just kind of get

704
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 6: repeated uncritically, but you do get at least the occasional interview,

705
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 6: the occasional quote from a non ust Department source. I

706
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 6: would also suggest on Instagram there are a couple of

707
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 6: pages that bring a more radical progressive voice from the Caribbean.

708
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 6: There's a page called Vintage Caribbean and there's another page

709
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 6: called Trinbiago for Palestine, and both of those have been

710
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 6: doing a lot of coverage on this particular incident lately,

711
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 6: So you can look through those as well if you

712
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 6: want to get us sort of a grassroots steak on

713
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 6: the situation.

714
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't really have any go to sources on this.

715
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 8: I would say that it's enough of an interaction once

716
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:40,479
Speaker 8: and that all.

717
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: The major news sources you're covering it.

718
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 4: So you can read really any news source in Latin

719
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 4: America if you speak Spanish Portuguese and see how that

720
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 4: recording is different. Also, incidentally, by in Spain, you know

721
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 4: quotes on the side.

722
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: They do pretty good reporting. Yeah, they've been doing pretty.

723
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 4: Good reporting and there's lots of blogs as well, and

724
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 4: you know, newsletters check out. I will say, just made this.

725
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 4: I'm biased because I focus a lot on crime. The

726
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 4: site Insight Crime is pretty good in terms of looking

727
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 4: into specific criminal groups, liked Aragua and calling question if

728
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 4: you know, if this really is a you know, it's

729
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 4: something that is controlled by the puppet master from you know, Flores,

730
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 4: you know, Likeldor and some of these, some of these

731
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 4: narratives that are justifying this.

732
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 3: I'd also just as.

733
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 4: A recommendation, I would say, you know, maybe it should

734
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 4: be a little bit skeptical too about the timing and

735
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 4: the purposes of these things. I did point out in

736
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 4: a piece that I wrote for the Center for National Policy.

737
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 4: Then the first boat strike happened on the same day

738
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 4: that the House Judiciary Committee was releasing a redacted number

739
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 4: of files related to the Jeffrey Epstein case. You know,

740
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 4: and I think that there are many reasons why this

741
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 4: administration would I would like to use this confrontation as

742
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 4: a conmane distraction from from other things that they would

743
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: rather not be talking about.

744
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, leak, I think it's probably a reasonable conclusion. Give

745
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: them where we're at. Where can people find both of

746
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: you on if they want to follow you online on

747
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: social media or find more of your writing. We'll start

748
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: with you, Andrew.

749
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 6: Shure, Well, you can find me on my YouTube channel

750
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 6: YouTube dot com, slash Andrew's own, or you could just

751
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 6: call my website for all my other links, Andrew sage

752
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 6: dot org.

753
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 4: How about you, Michael, I do have a website. You

754
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 4: can look up my name and that should come up.

755
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 4: I haven't updated it recently, I probably should. I'm also

756
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 4: on Twitter x blue Sky as my name m.

757
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 3: P A A R L B B r G, so

758
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 3: you can look me up there.

759
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: Great, Thank you very much.

760
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 7: With you.

761
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 9: Welcome to it up here a podcast where you good

762
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 9: and not everything that is called co op is good.

763
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 10: Sometimes they're not actually really co ops.

764
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 9: I am your host, Mia Long, and today we are

765
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 9: joined by the people struggling under the tyrannical fist of

766
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 9: a co op, a thing that shouldn't be possible and

767
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 9: yet somehow.

768
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 8: Yeah.

769
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, So we are talking today with Es and Finley,

770
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 9: who are booksellers at the Seminary co Op in Chicago.

771
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 9: And yeah, we are welcoming the union back to the show.

772
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 9: And dear God, what a disaster.

773
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 8: What a year it has been.

774
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 11: Well, it's really great to be found. I wish we

775
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 11: were back with slightly better news or yeah, since we

776
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 11: were last here, certainly, Yeah, because when we last spoke,

777
00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 11: we had just sort of theatrically announced to our management

778
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 11: that we were in an organized shop with the IWW

779
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 11: and we were going to be bargaining with them for

780
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 11: better wages and humane working conditions.

781
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 12: For us all.

782
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 11: And they were like, yeah, you're a union, we so

783
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 11: recognize that, and then they have sat on their hands

784
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 11: ever since.

785
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 9: Yeah, so let's roll back all the way to the

786
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 9: beginning and explain a little bit about what the Seminary

787
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 9: co Op is for people who weren't here. How many

788
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 9: years ago was that though?

789
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 8: That must have been last year.

790
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,479
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it was a while ago.

791
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

792
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 11: So the Seminary co Op is a set of two

793
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 11: bookstores in Hyde Park. The Seminary co Op Bookstore, which

794
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 11: is a misnomer on two out of free counts, it's

795
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 11: not a seminary anymore. It's not a co op anymore.

796
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 11: It is still a bookstore, although it is a not

797
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 11: for profit bookstore, which is a mysterious category of business,

798
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 11: said that doesn't exist anywhere else, baffling.

799
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, briefly, just to enerject, I do think when I

800
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 8: would announce events and sort of give this exact breakdown

801
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 8: for audiences, like I said, not for profit bookstore whose

802
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 8: mission is book selling, right, And when I was hired of,

803
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 8: like about three months before we announced we were unionizing,

804
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 8: the way it was put to me was other not

805
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 8: for profit bookstores, they do a lot with like family literacy,

806
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 8: or like specifically around women's issues. But that was just

807
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 8: like an acknowledgement of the reality that bookstores don't make

808
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 8: a whole lot of money, and what we are providing

809
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 8: is a not for profit bookstore is just the browsing experience.

810
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 8: We kept books on shelves for too long. It just

811
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 8: it seemed like a like a really romantic idea of

812
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 8: book selling that didn't have like a whole lot of

813
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 8: legs underneath it, so to speak. Yeah, so it is nonsense,

814
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 8: I would say, but that's me.

815
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 9: It's just real library, Like we have this, it's called library,

816
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 9: so they're.

817
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 8: Really big book store. Just I don't know, it was vague, yeah.

818
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 9: Baffling, baffling, yes, yeah, And then I guess. I guess

819
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 9: the second part of it is like when they say

820
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 9: it's a co op, what does that mean?

821
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 11: It means truly and as conspeaks more that it was

822
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 11: founded by Chicago Theological Seminary students and there was a

823
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 11: reason for that.

824
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 8: Yeah, like they did want to buy corsebooks at the

825
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 8: at the prices that retailers got them wholesale, and so

826
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 8: the thought was, I forget their names, but we have

827
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 8: the pictures of them. It was like a Cavanaugh or something.

828
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 8: But these two guys just you know, if you were

829
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 8: a student at Chicago Theological Seminary, we're even like a

830
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 8: student at one of the other divinity seminaries nearby. You

831
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 8: just put an amount of money and you were part

832
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 8: of like you got your course book cheaper, you know,

833
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 8: and under like a specific manager who came like a

834
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 8: couple decades after that, Like then it really became like

835
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 8: this is the neighborhood bookstore. This is part of, like

836
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 8: as say, like the intellectual sort of cultural life of

837
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 8: the university. But yeah, at one point it was a

838
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 8: cooperative because like you were a member and you got

839
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 8: your course books cheaper because you you know, had a

840
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 8: certain amount of shares in the books. But yeah, it

841
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 8: was a think smarter, not harder kind of scheme.

842
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 11: And then when they dissolved the like ownership shares and

843
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 11: stopped being a co op. That was twenty nineteen when

844
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 11: they organized as this not for profit. It's not a

845
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 11: five oh one C three, they don't have nonprofit status.

846
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 11: It's this slightly different thing. And so one of the

847
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 11: one things that has happened in the past year is

848
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 11: we had an interim director who got us like basically

849
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 11: a nonprofit sponsor who lends its five oh one C

850
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 11: three status to other organizations and allows you to take

851
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 11: text deductible donations.

852
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: But like, up to that.

853
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 11: Point, we couldn't do that because we were not a

854
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 11: legitimate nonprofit. We were this other thing.

855
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, so since twenty nineteen it's been that, and then

856
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 13: since twenty twenty four, it's been that plus Chicago's standalone

857
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 13: unionized bookstore.

858
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 11: For now, we're hoping that others follow in la they will.

859
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 9: Yes, I feel like it is not a great sign

860
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 9: of your business being a well run when you are

861
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 9: doing a thing that like rookie activist campaigns do, when

862
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,439
Speaker 9: they're like, oh shit, we got a bunch of buddy,

863
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 9: we need to borrow someone else's five O one three status,

864
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 9: Like yeah, great, great job management, like but incredible stuff.

865
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 8: And like, for me, part of what's been so like

866
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 8: just mind boggling is like the not for profit bookstore

867
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 8: who's messed this. Book selling does sort of give this,

868
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 8: you know, if we're like a five oh one C

869
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 8: three who often does it they don't turn a profit

870
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 8: or what they do they reinvest it back into the

871
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 8: operations they're doing. But like part of and we can

872
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 8: talk more about this as we get into like the bargaining,

873
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 8: but like store financials have been so obscured, and I

874
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 8: hate from like truly truly hate from linguistic standpoint, just

875
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 8: sort of this subtle like, oh, we must not be

876
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 8: doing well because to me that feels like the rhetoric

877
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 8: that really justifies the pack that I'm paid sixteen ninety

878
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 8: an hour and I have a Master's of Divinity from

879
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 8: the Seminary of the Seminary co Op.

880
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, and it's and I think it's also worth

881
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 9: noting that, like even from the perspective of capital, like

882
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 9: all of the giant tech companies didn't make money for

883
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 9: like decades and all those motherfuckers were walking off with

884
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 9: like one hundred billion dollar payouts, you know, like they

885
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 9: only ever started making money when they started like reeling

886
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 9: in a bunch of government contracts for like web services

887
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 9: and like defense contracts and shit. And it's like, I

888
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 9: don't know, like this is this is I guess on topic,

889
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 9: but it's just something that makes you really mad. Where

890
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 9: people talk about like running the government like a business

891
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 9: and then like you know, you get like the post

892
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 9: office where it's like, oh, the post Office doesn't run

893
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 9: a profit. It's like j you know, doesn't run a

894
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 9: fucking profit. Uber literally has never brought a profit ever,

895
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 9: not once, yes, no once, right, like no, like like

896
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 9: I'm sorry, welcome, welcome to Welcome to fuck. Twenty twenty five.

897
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 9: Capitalism like companies don't make profits. They either get contact

898
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 9: from the government or their entire existence is either conting

899
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 9: some venture capitalists dipshits out of all of their money,

900
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 9: or it's like peer theel has decided that your like

901
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 9: surveillance camera company is ideologically important to him taking over

902
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 9: the world, so he's going to give you one billion

903
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 9: dollars and it's like, oh, no, I'm sorry, Like our

904
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 9: financials aren't good enough for you to pay you.

905
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 10: It's like, motherfucker, Like have you seen the rest of capitalism?

906
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 9: Like shit pay.

907
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 8: Your workers, Like yeah, oh yeah, God damn well.

908
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 11: We keep using that one meme over and over and

909
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 11: then it is true, like we're trying to balance the budget.

910
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 8: It's true.

911
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 11: The candles drill, thank yeah, yeah, because our management is

912
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 11: so infuriating. And they also in the year since we've

913
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 11: been bargaining having an interim director and spent most of

914
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 11: his tenure searching for an executive director to take over,

915
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 11: that person is being paid one hundred and sixty thousand

916
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 11: dollars a year to our knowledge, Jesus Christ.

917
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 8: And that's the.

918
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 11: Offer that we know of. We have yet to get

919
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 11: his contract, even though we did make a formal information

920
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 11: request for it.

921
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, which is fucked. And it's also like yeah, like

922
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 9: every time these companies are like, oh, we don't have money,

923
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 9: and it's like, okay, I can find like an unbelievable

924
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 9: amount of money that you have given to someone to

925
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 9: like to give a random, nonspecific example that has nothing

926
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 9: to do with with with any company that is in

927
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 9: any way related to this show.

928
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 8: Live or Dead.

929
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 9: By a board Ape Yacht Club NFT.

930
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 8: Like this is like there's spent three hundred dollars on

931
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 8: Google homes speakers for fifty seventh Street books and I'm like, wow,

932
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 8: my having that three hundred dollars would change my life.

933
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 8: But also like, you're paying that union busting lawyer thousands

934
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 8: of dollars that you could be paid reverse. Yep, but

935
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 8: that's that's capitalism.

936
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 9: Yeah, they have enough money to make your lives miserable,

937
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 9: but they apparently never have enough money to you know,

938
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 9: like bake your lives not miserable, because they have to

939
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 9: spend that money on making your lives miserable.

940
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, and it's so intentional because making us miserable means

941
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 11: that they are wearing down the number of people that

942
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 11: they have to deal with and making the people who

943
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 11: are left so tired and so frustrated and so much

944
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 11: less capable of fighting them.

945
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, and that feels like just you know, fens leaving.

946
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 8: We've also had a number of folks like our bargaining

947
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 8: unit that the last time y'all spoke last year was

948
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 8: like twenty five people. Now we're down to eleven and

949
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 8: it's there. They've refused to hire anybody time yeah, of course,

950
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,720
Speaker 8: but they've been giving seasonal workers sort of like extra hours,

951
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 8: and that is someone's got to start counting they have,

952
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 8: like unless they work for ninety days, they don't have to.

953
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 8: And because they're seasonal, you know, YadA YadA, they don't

954
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 8: really join our union as kind of what I understand

955
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 8: why they are not considered eligible. But it's like, the

956
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 8: booksellers are the heart of the store.

957
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 11: The classification of signal workers and particularly of event runners,

958
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 11: has been a point of contention throughout negotiations this whole time,

959
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 11: because obviously, from our perspective, we want anyone who's working

960
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 11: in the store in any capacity to be involved in

961
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 11: the union. We want them to not have this random

962
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 11: scab force that they can deploy at will. Yeah, And

963
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 11: that has always been the point that gets revisited over

964
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 11: and over again. Just when we think we've gotten them

965
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 11: locked into being union members, they'll come back with their

966
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 11: latest count and that's like, actually, I think because of X,

967
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 11: Y and b Z that we just changed, they're no

968
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 11: longer eligible to join your union. But they did just

969
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 11: hire I think three people that they were training at

970
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 11: fifty seventh Street last week. But they've made no formal

971
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 11: announcement to anyone that these people have been hired. Yeah,

972
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 11: I only know that they were like in the stores

973
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 11: because one of them came to the co op by

974
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 11: mistake instead of fifty seventh Street and was like, oh,

975
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 11: I'm one of the hires. Oh, and so it's unclear

976
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 11: if those are the seasonal workers or if those are

977
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 11: new hires.

978
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,919
Speaker 8: Those are i'll say, the most recent member, like part time,

979
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 8: full time member of our staff who's not me. None

980
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:36,399
Speaker 8: of us knew she was hired, and she just came

981
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 8: up took a book right off my cart and I

982
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 8: was like, bitch, what but she But those were events,

983
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 8: those were the seasonal workers at the store. The other day,

984
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 8: like I worked one of the Chicago Humanities events with them,

985
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 8: and it is like, yeah, then they just changed the

986
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 8: qualification of who can be in the union.

987
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's been very intentional, and it's been just like

988
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 11: over and over they revisit and classified and less down.

989
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, we've done I think too. Since you last spoke,

990
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 8: like a couple of work stoppages and then picketed outside

991
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 8: of our store as well. But that I don't know

992
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 8: in terms of like sort of regressive bargaining to attrition

993
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 8: that we're seeing and that like they refuse to hire

994
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 8: other people even though they're kind of shooting themselves in

995
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 8: the foot. But just like our direct action has I

996
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 8: think worked against what they're thinking, which is that we're

997
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 8: tired and that we're not going to fight back and

998
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 8: that we are overwhelmed and we don't know what we're doing.

999
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 8: But there are a lot of folks who do have,

1000
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 8: you know, experience with these sort of direct actions, like

1001
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 8: a work stoppage, and I think it's why it's great

1002
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 8: that we're wildly's but also like I do kind of

1003
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 8: like on the work stoppage health flustered and not like upset,

1004
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,760
Speaker 8: but just how flustered and yeah, just awkward management feels

1005
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 8: it's it's empowering for me. Yeah, but it's very much

1006
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 8: on purpose. Well, and I think that's one of these

1007
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 8: it's too just like a campaign. In the broad sense

1008
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 8: of continuing direct actions during negotiations is it is that

1009
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 8: chance to connect with your coworkers and re solidify that

1010
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 8: you're fighting for something intentional in the face of the

1011
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 8: fact that you will probably start being scheduled more sparsely,

1012
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 8: you will have fewer opportunities during the workday to talk

1013
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 8: to people and like that's just stuff that's going to

1014
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 8: happen while negotiations go on. But like making sure that

1015
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 8: you stay in touch with your union as best you

1016
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 8: can and like show up for all the direct things

1017
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 8: that you can helps you internally combat that, which is

1018
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 8: really helpful.

1019
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1020
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 9: And I mean, like you know, like I sound like

1021
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 9: we ran into organizing cues. We spent like I think

1022
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 9: it was two years bargaining for our contract, and they

1023
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 9: didn't have the capacity to literally force half the workforce

1024
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 9: to quit.

1025
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 8: But like, oh, don't worry.

1026
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,439
Speaker 11: They don't have the capacity to lose this many people

1027
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 11: are falling seas and they are how few people they

1028
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 11: have Yep.

1029
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 9: This whole thing is it's just like a really really

1030
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 9: common managerial tactic, yeah, which is just like we're going

1031
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,439
Speaker 9: to make everything unlivable and try to get as many

1032
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 9: people as we can to quit and then just make

1033
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 9: everyone else's lives a living hell, which is like this

1034
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 9: is I think I've said this before, but it's like

1035
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 9: the extent to which the strategy is just the deliberate

1036
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 9: infliction of terror.

1037
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1038
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 11: Well, and the strategy is just tank your business, which

1039
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 11: seems incredibly conintuitive from their perspective.

1040
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 8: And like there have been events for like it's been

1041
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 8: a book about like Karl Marx labor organizing, whether it's

1042
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 8: a history or like a like sociology book, and folks

1043
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 8: are like, I waited to buy this book here because

1044
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,479
Speaker 8: it's the union bookstore, And like there is a way

1045
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 8: that us being a union bookstore could look given like

1046
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 8: that folks on our board are really progressive, people like

1047
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 8: Adam Gettichew, like State Senator Robert Peters, who's like running

1048
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 8: on a pretty pro labor background. Like us being unionized

1049
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 8: could be like we are already at tourist bookstore, like

1050
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 8: folks come from everywhere, or like this is such a

1051
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 8: famous bookstore. But like it does baffle me. It does

1052
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 8: make sense that it's a common tactic. But also there's

1053
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 8: so much that could work in their favor if they

1054
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 8: were not just like so committed to busting this union.

1055
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 9: We hold on sidebar Ale Gritch, she was my professor.

1056
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, I talked to her today.

1057
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 12: Wait, she's just part of the management team.

1058
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 8: No no, no, there's okay, so this is part of

1059
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 8: it's just.

1060
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 9: Like a different thing. Okay, sorry, sorry, this is okay.

1061
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 8: No, no, no, this is This is where like us

1062
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 8: being a not for profit bookstore but not actually like

1063
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 8: having any legal standing as a not for profit gets

1064
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 8: a little confusing. And like Finn, you can probably speak

1065
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 8: more to how this has come up in the bargaining meeting.

1066
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 8: But when we I don't know if this was around

1067
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 8: before the cooperative was dissolved and shared are basically like

1068
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 8: worthless at that point. But there is a board of

1069
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 8: direct ors, one of whom like is very very famous

1070
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 8: and at least among the folks I know for effectively

1071
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 8: union investing employees at Experimental Station on sixty first in

1072
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 8: Blackstone when they try to unionize right. And also there

1073
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 8: are so many like Hyde Park progressives like RJP, like

1074
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 8: I Adam Getta, Chew eve Ewing as well, And these

1075
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 8: are people I really respect, but like because there's like

1076
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 8: this four cabinet, I think of folks who are have

1077
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 8: been in and out of bargaining meetings when we've had

1078
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 8: employees at other lead for unions who do have a

1079
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 8: connection to like for example, Robert Peters. It does very

1080
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 8: clear that like this governing board which does govern, they

1081
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 8: have terms, But we're also a retail outfit, you know,

1082
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 8: usually like a not for profit, the board of a

1083
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 8: not for profit would be helping with like an annual

1084
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 8: fundraising campaign. It's unclear entirely what the board does in

1085
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 8: a retail outfit other than, at least in my experience,

1086
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 8: like giving advice, writing emails to try to bust this union,

1087
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 8: you know, before we unionized, albeit I had a very

1088
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 8: short tenure before we had unionized. None of these people

1089
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 8: none of their names matter to me. But because like

1090
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 8: there's so much confusion about is management going to be

1091
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 8: representing folks in the bargaining meeting or is it going

1092
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 8: to be a board member representative. I've been just who

1093
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 8: is accountable to disclose what financial information and when or

1094
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 8: just any information and when? Like, yeah, Adam Adam Yettuchu

1095
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 8: is not one of our one of our bosses. But like,

1096
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 8: there is just a lot of confusion that I feel

1097
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 8: about what the board is responsible for in bargaining and

1098
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 8: with the manage and what management feels they're responsible for.

1099
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 8: And I can clear up a little bit of.

1100
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 11: That because what we were told when we first unionized

1101
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 11: and when the management team was kind of shifting and

1102
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 11: reorganizing itself around to the board, was the board is

1103
01:01:53,920 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 11: there primarily to advise and supervise and higher the executive

1104
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 11: director for the stores. And so there is a financial contribution,

1105
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 11: like they're all significant donors. That's part of the way

1106
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 11: that they secure their seats is making a large donation

1107
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 11: to the stores. But then, at least according to them,

1108
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 11: from that point forward, they have no managerial oversight over

1109
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 11: the operations of the store whatsoever. It is not their responsibility.

1110
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 11: They don't make any decisions about the budget, they don't

1111
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 11: get involved, they don't want to be involved. And they

1112
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 11: were embarrassed by having this attitude when previous management went

1113
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 11: off the rails and nearly drove the store into the

1114
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 11: ground by buying stock on credit cards. What But then

1115
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 11: it's a cool thing that we do not have into

1116
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 11: But that's.

1117
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 8: This is bonkers.

1118
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, oh yeah.

1119
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 11: That is to say that somehow that experience did not

1120
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 11: act as a wig up call for this board of directors,

1121
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 11: and they said, what we will do is hire the

1122
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 11: next way man we can find and take our hands

1123
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 11: back off the wheel.

1124
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 9: Jesus Christ, is this an institution that people like it

1125
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 9: would be helpful to put pressure on or.

1126
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 11: That's what it's hard to say, because there's this and

1127
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 11: I think I talked about it the last time we

1128
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 11: were on the podcast. But there's this responsibility carousel between

1129
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 11: management who in a bargaining session. Because the other thing

1130
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 11: is because we can't tell how involved the board is,

1131
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 11: because they tell us that they're not involved at all,

1132
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 11: and then they make decisions and we hear about the

1133
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 11: decisions that they're making. We have asked repeatedly that they

1134
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 11: be involved in bargaining and that they send someone to

1135
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 11: represent them, or they like participate and have an opinion

1136
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 11: on the way that the stores are run, and they

1137
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 11: have repeatedly refused those invitations, requests, demands, et cetera.

1138
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, it seems.

1139
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 11: Their involvement has been to recommend that our management hire

1140
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 11: Jenny Goltz to be their lawyer, and that as about

1141
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 11: as much as they want to do she is christ like.

1142
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 8: Two things too. Then I think there was supposed to

1143
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 8: be a board member president at the next bargaining meeting,

1144
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 8: but because our meeting was contingent on having the full

1145
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 8: financial information that we requested literally a month ago, and

1146
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 8: when we requested that information the next day a board member,

1147
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 8: the president of the board said Okay, we'll get this

1148
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 8: to you. We got it. I think you might know

1149
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 8: more about the timing of this fit like at the

1150
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 8: last possible minute we.

1151
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 11: Got at the day before the meeting, oh god, yeah,

1152
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 11: and it was half of what we asked for. Yeah,

1153
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 11: and then we said this is not what we requested

1154
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 11: and we cannot meet because we said we couldn't meet

1155
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 11: without this full information. They were like, we're disappointed that

1156
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 11: you can't do that, and we were.

1157
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:50,439
Speaker 14: Like, yeah, shocking, Yeah, we are back.

1158
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 9: Let's get more formally into like what the marketing process

1159
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 9: has looked like. It sounds like it's been extremely chaotic.

1160
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 9: They've been not turning over a information. It's deeply unclear

1161
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 9: who's making decisions which all seem and I can say,

1162
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 9: this is my professional opinion, not good a technical anout

1163
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 9: life assessment. Yeah, this is why they pay me the

1164
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 9: mediocre books.

1165
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 11: Well, I think you were just so well informed, yes.

1166
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 8: Journalistic insight.

1167
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 11: Yeah. So the way that we set it up on

1168
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 11: our end when we entered into negotiations was we had

1169
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 11: a core team of three people who were going to

1170
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 11: be our core bargaining unit who would attend every meeting,

1171
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 11: and then we had a small team of like three

1172
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 11: more people including myself that were like alternates in case

1173
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 11: something got scheduled on one day that one of the

1174
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 11: core team couldn't be there, and we made sure that

1175
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:51,919
Speaker 11: we would always schedule one person who was not negotiating

1176
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 11: to be at the meeting and take notes, so that

1177
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 11: like none of the people who were negotiating, you had.

1178
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 8: To do that at the same time.

1179
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 11: And when we first started negotiating, the management team was

1180
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 11: sending Dan Meyer, the interim director, and name Kanno, who's

1181
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 11: our deputy director, who is basically the one person on

1182
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 11: the management team who is not she's not supposed to

1183
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 11: be a direct supervisor. She has not actually let go

1184
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 11: of the people that she was supervising, but she's like

1185
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 11: in that middle space between like supervising management and like

1186
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 11: director management. But she has since stepped down from negotiations

1187
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 11: because of the way that she's been involved in the

1188
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 11: rest of store operations. She was like, I can't come

1189
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 11: to the table anymore. And so the latest meeting that

1190
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 11: has been rescheduled is going to be with Kevin Bendle,

1191
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 11: who's the new executive director, and then one other name

1192
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 11: that I forget who is either a board members as thinks,

1193
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 11: or I'm not sure well, she would be, but.

1194
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 8: It is it is a board member, and I think

1195
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 8: it is Tira Goldstein. Is her name Tia Goldstein?

1196
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1197
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1198
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 11: Every so often in niotiating sessions, Dan or Nai would

1199
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 11: make some reference to like a financial decision that we

1200
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 11: were trying to bargain about being like not their choice

1201
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 11: and being something that would be up to the board,

1202
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 11: and we'd be like, so take it to the board,

1203
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 11: and then we'd be like, okay, and then we would

1204
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 11: never hear anything about it ever.

1205
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 9: Again, incredible, incredible work. Seems like a great tactic to

1206
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 9: never address anything you're supposed to be addressing.

1207
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 11: And so the way that we were negotiating, we were

1208
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 11: trying to come to terms on things that didn't affect

1209
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 11: the finances of the store first so that we could

1210
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 11: land some easy wins and like feel like we were

1211
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 11: making progress and then address the stuff that we expected

1212
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,919
Speaker 11: to be thorny or later. But then what that ended

1213
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 11: up being as meetings went on and on was them

1214
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 11: asking us constantly like, but what is it that you

1215
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 11: guys really are like prioritizing, Like what is the thing

1216
01:07:57,240 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 11: that matters the most to you that like you have

1217
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 11: the least give on and We're like, it's wages. You know,

1218
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 11: it's wages. It's been wages this whole time. And they're like,

1219
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 11: but like, what if we were like asking you to

1220
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:09,959
Speaker 11: give up all your benefits to get it's just.

1221
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 9: That you want.

1222
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 11: And we were like, Okay, that's not how negotiating works.

1223
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 11: And then, in an email that labeled it their best

1224
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 11: and final offer, which is language that they have yet

1225
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 11: to take back, they sent us a version of the

1226
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 11: contract bargaining agreement that we hey, let me just back

1227
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 11: up for a second. When we first started negotiating, they

1228
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 11: asked us to draft the entire first draft of the

1229
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,719
Speaker 11: collective bargaining agreement ourselves, what which is incredible well standard,

1230
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 11: And we were like, that's fine because that gives us

1231
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 11: a leg up in terms of like studying the initial terms.

1232
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,600
Speaker 11: I guess we'll do it, but like, yeah, incredibly nonstandards,

1233
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 11: super stupid, not a thing that we should have had

1234
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 11: to do.

1235
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, I've never heard of that before.

1236
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 11: But so when we drafted it, we drafted a three

1237
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,759
Speaker 11: year term collective bargaining agreement with a bunch of stuff

1238
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,759
Speaker 11: about procedure and wages and benefits that we wanted done,

1239
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:11,800
Speaker 11: and so zooming back forward to that best and final offer. Suddenly,

1240
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:14,759
Speaker 11: the draft that they've sent us back of the collective

1241
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 11: bargaining moreement is a two year term, and up to

1242
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 11: this point, all of the offers that had gotten anything

1243
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 11: close to our ask on wages were in year three,

1244
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 11: and everything in year one and two was still like

1245
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 11: twenty five cents fifty cents increases. And so suddenly year three,

1246
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:36,760
Speaker 11: which was always the only year that made any improvements

1247
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 11: for us, is gone, and you did not improve any

1248
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 11: other parts of the contract to make up for that

1249
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 11: unilateral decision.

1250
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 9: So that's just regressive bargaining.

1251
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, it is.

1252
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 9: It is, which, by the way, okay, do you want

1253
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 9: to explain to our dear listeners what regressive bargaining is

1254
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 9: and why you're not allowed to do it.

1255
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, regressive bargaining is is a dirty negotiation tactic where

1256
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 11: one side, without making any sort of give and take

1257
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 11: concessions like they should to balance a big move, just

1258
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:16,719
Speaker 11: unilaterally decides to change a term, especially a large term

1259
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 11: like wages, contract term, et cetera. And so it is

1260
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 11: taking something that has been tentatively agreed upon and like

1261
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 11: in good faith taken as a part of the contract

1262
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,640
Speaker 11: that will stand and acting it.

1263
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, and you are not allowed to do this is

1264
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 9: this is under the under the terms under the terms

1265
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 9: of the National Labor Relations Act, which you know, who knows.

1266
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 9: But by the time this episode goes out, there is

1267
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:46,600
Speaker 9: a small chance it won't exist anymore. A bunch of

1268
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 9: provisions of it are under attacked right now.

1269
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 11: But like that is like, we have a few unfair

1270
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 11: labor practices filed with the NLRB since the terms of

1271
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 11: Negotia have been in effect, and they are not, in

1272
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 11: fact progressive bargaining charges, but issues of status quo where

1273
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 11: they're trying to change the way that they do scheduling,

1274
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 11: change the way that they do like absence discipline, which

1275
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 11: are topics that are covered in bargaining and should only

1276
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 11: be changed in bargaining while bargaining is active, but they're

1277
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 11: trying to change them and then say that these have

1278
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,000
Speaker 11: been the policies all along, and so.

1279
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 9: God literally gaslighting, yeah, like actual, actual, straight up. You

1280
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 9: could pick up the gap the psychologue the psychology textbook

1281
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 9: plight to it, like oh.

1282
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, just pick up that whole lamp well, and we

1283
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 11: have their words in writing of every step of the

1284
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 11: way where you can see the language change and be like, no,

1285
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 11: you are the person who said before that it was

1286
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 11: this other thing that was you. Yeah, so we filed

1287
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 11: unfair labor practice about those things, and you can in

1288
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 11: fact not track them anymore because since the government shut down,

1289
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 11: you can find a little PDF that explains, yep, that

1290
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 11: all ulps are going to be pending indefinitely, and that

1291
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 11: is all you can find.

1292
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, and it's also fun because Trump I legally fired

1293
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 9: one of the Democratic people on it, so I don't

1294
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 9: have a korum any on the board of the National RELATIONSIP. Boys,

1295
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 9: they don't have a korum anymore, which is a shit show.

1296
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 9: And snaking any NLRB like attempt to get anything done

1297
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 9: to the NLRB really annoying.

1298
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:27,719
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1299
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think the direct action has been helpful where

1300
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 8: like just that reality where just they just it would

1301
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,640
Speaker 8: drive me crazy. And it is it is gaslighting. This

1302
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 8: is traumatizing. If her boyfriend does it to you, it's

1303
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:43,760
Speaker 8: a red flag. But when your boss does it to you,

1304
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 8: you know, it's like, yeah, the public's fine with it. Business, Yeah,

1305
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 8: it's a cost of business.

1306
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:50,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1307
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 8: It is just the continuous, non stop onslaught of regressive

1308
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 8: bargaining tactics that like from the minute we started, despite

1309
01:12:57,520 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 8: the fact that like I was sitting next to the

1310
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 8: director when we say reunionizing, it was like a split

1311
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 8: second before she said, yep, we recognize it. And so

1312
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,839
Speaker 8: our direct action at the workstoppage. I remember our first workstop,

1313
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 8: if you sat for half an hour, management was very

1314
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 8: cool with that. The second time we did it, we

1315
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 8: did it for an hour. We should have done our

1316
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 8: homework better because we didn't know that you can't, like

1317
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 8: like leaf live it on store property because the US

1318
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 8: Chicago is our landlord and kind of like not store property.

1319
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 8: But I put on my clerical collar. I put on

1320
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 8: a T shirt that had like given to Caesar what

1321
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 8: is Caesar's and also like a little footnote about you know,

1322
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 8: run me my money. You know, there's a lot obvious

1323
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 8: instruction from Jesus out of Luke that's like pay the

1324
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 8: work or their wages. But I was wearing my clerical car.

1325
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 8: I set up the PA and I and I was loud.

1326
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 8: There was a Hyde Park Harold reporter who you know

1327
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 8: took my comment who I remember him walking over to

1328
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 8: Nien and I think asking her for her comment. I

1329
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,800
Speaker 8: had a bluetooth speaker that was Dan's right playing never

1330
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 8: never fight a man with a perm by Idol and

1331
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 8: I will not forget. I will not forget. The way

1332
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 8: our the deputy director approached me, she was like, Okay,

1333
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 8: this is fine, this is all fine. I just want

1334
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 8: to let you know this is fine, but can you

1335
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 8: please turn the music off? And it took me about

1336
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 8: twenty minutes to just turn the buttons down slowly, But

1337
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 8: like that we were reprimanded.

1338
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:21,719
Speaker 15: Yeah, we got a very very email the next day

1339
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:25,639
Speaker 15: Elevet illustrating what the consequences would be if we tried

1340
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 15: to do a similar action again in that manner.

1341
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 8: And so we picketed outside their store. That was the

1342
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 8: next direct action that we did. But like I do

1343
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:38,360
Speaker 8: think our most impactful direct actions have been the ones

1344
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:41,720
Speaker 8: that have been noisy, that have been incredibly visible. When

1345
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 8: we picketed last it was on the first day of classes.

1346
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 8: We sell like a lot of core core course books

1347
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 8: for the college at the university, and so there were

1348
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 8: students like that. We we were like, hey, do you

1349
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 8: have the bookseller who sold you that book to have

1350
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 8: a living wage? And students like nineteen year old are

1351
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 8: so outraged by the end of money I make as

1352
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 8: a grown person.

1353
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 11: I heard so much eat the rich that day from sillennials.

1354
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 8: Hell yeah, hell yeah. But it's it is clear that

1355
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 8: when the public is made aware of what's happening at

1356
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 8: a store that a lot of people love just so much,

1357
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 8: like it is a part of the community, and I

1358
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 8: think so much a part of people's even like my

1359
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 8: own before I work there, our experience of being in

1360
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 8: this fight knit bizarre community, and folks are upset like

1361
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:33,040
Speaker 8: they and I think rightfully so, and that's just I think,

1362
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 8: really the beauty of direct action is not just that

1363
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 8: it empowers u f but it really just like in

1364
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,120
Speaker 8: a sort of spectacle way, says this is what this

1365
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 8: is what they're doing. You want a place that you

1366
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 8: love to run this way and to treat people like this.

1367
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 11: So and I think they're really effective for that reason,

1368
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 11: especially because people are really like on our side when

1369
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 11: they talk to us, but they're also really surprised because

1370
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 11: like part of the instant recognition thing, part of the

1371
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,679
Speaker 11: being cool with us having union buttons on the register.

1372
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 11: Part of all of that is the fact that management

1373
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,759
Speaker 11: is benefiting from the illusion that they're on good.

1374
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 1: Terms with us.

1375
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 11: And so like one of the reasons that we held

1376
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 11: that picket was to be like, hey, just because they

1377
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 11: are not stopping us does not mean they have done

1378
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 11: anything to improve the material conditions that we have been

1379
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 11: organizing around this whole time.

1380
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1381
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 9: Well, and also to be incredibly clear about this, like

1382
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 9: it's so obvious it has to actually directly be stated,

1383
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 9: which is that all of the things they are doing

1384
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 9: our union busting tactics, because their strategy here is to

1385
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:41,799
Speaker 9: do a recognition and then go for the second place

1386
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:45,719
Speaker 9: where unions was commonly collapse, which is once you're recognized

1387
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 9: as as a bargaining the second place they fail is

1388
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 9: getting the first contract, and that that's what they're really

1389
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,599
Speaker 9: obviously trying to do. And yeah, the fact that people

1390
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:57,640
Speaker 9: don't understand that they're just running a thing that like

1391
01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 9: I'm trying to think of how to even disc it

1392
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 9: was like like that bookstore was like like it was

1393
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 9: treated as like something that was as an institution that

1394
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 9: was like part of the university. That's like the way

1395
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 9: it was like treated culturally was this is like our thing,

1396
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 9: and these people are running it into the ground because

1397
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 9: they don't want to pay their workers like enough money.

1398
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 9: To survive. It's is just hideous.

1399
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 11: And that's really all it comes down too when you

1400
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 11: look at what the facts on the ground are is

1401
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:30,640
Speaker 11: the decisions that they are making are directly tied to

1402
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 11: the fact that they feel like they have no money,

1403
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 11: which is directly to the fact that they are paying

1404
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 11: the executive director too much, which is directly died to

1405
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 11: the fact that they want to have an excuse to

1406
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 11: not pay us anything.

1407
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1408
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like, oh, wow, we don't have enough money

1409
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 9: because we're spending like one hundred and sixty thousand dollars

1410
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 9: on an executive director. Have you considered you can simply

1411
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 9: eliminate this entire expense by turning this into an actual

1412
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,719
Speaker 9: co op. You could do it in like one day,

1413
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 9: and you suddenly would not have the administration expenses because

1414
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:04,400
Speaker 9: those people wouldn't be there. You could do this yeah,

1415
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 9: really easily.

1416
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 11: Oh well, And as the like movement in and out

1417
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,559
Speaker 11: of that position over the past year demonstrates, it has

1418
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 11: no effect on the operations of bookstore. The thing that

1419
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 11: has any effect on the operations of the bookstore is

1420
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 11: the fact that seven people have left, not been replaced,

1421
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 11: and all of their work has been redistributed across like

1422
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,800
Speaker 11: increasingly siloed positions to the people who are left so

1423
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 11: that you have no help on your particular assigned task

1424
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 11: that is now yours and yours alone, and you just

1425
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 11: feel terrible in your little hole by yourself.

1426
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 9: Which there's is something like I know for a fact

1427
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 9: that like multiple people on that board know what a

1428
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 9: speed up is, Like, that's a speed up. I know

1429
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 9: for a fact that you know what this.

1430
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,559
Speaker 11: Is, and most of them who know what it is

1431
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,320
Speaker 11: have written against them.

1432
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, just kind of like expanding a bit, like or

1433
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,639
Speaker 8: the staff at the Museum of Science and Industry has

1434
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 8: also unionized, and they were outside of their store, you know,

1435
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 8: threatening to strike and so like I loved on the

1436
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:12,639
Speaker 8: picket line, like I had a sign that said fire Jenny,

1437
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 8: and I went to explain to the Yeah, I want

1438
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 8: to explain to the UI employee who Jenny was. The

1439
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 8: UI employee who worked at the Graduate Students United at

1440
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 8: U Chicago, and she went, oh, I know who Jenny is,

1441
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,960
Speaker 8: and that's I don't know. Just yeah, it's sick that

1442
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,799
Speaker 8: like somebody can make their living making my life worse

1443
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 8: than a that's that's capitalism. And also be like I

1444
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 8: she has been involved that lawyer and like a number

1445
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,760
Speaker 8: of like she busting you, trying to bust unions at

1446
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 8: U Chicago on successfully and also representing Northwestern in a

1447
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:49,919
Speaker 8: case where one of their employees accused them of sexual

1448
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 8: harassment and discrimination. You know. So it's like you're you're

1449
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 8: really this this is this is the person that you're

1450
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 8: working with. This is the tool that you're using, you know,

1451
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 8: is it who you would rather pay? Yeah?

1452
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah. And it's also it's like that that's the

1453
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 9: thing where this this whole metaphor of like the boss

1454
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:11,599
Speaker 9: acting as an abusive partner is suddenly getting very literal

1455
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 9: in terms of who they're who are the people that

1456
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 9: they are employing do for their other ship, which is

1457
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 9: defending those people. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's almost like

1458
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:26,280
Speaker 9: there's a structural connection between management and patriarchy. Wow, who

1459
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 9: could possibly who could possibly have done this?

1460
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 11: Between systems of abuse?

1461
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like who could possibly have written about this? Check's notes?

1462
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:37,839
Speaker 10: Looks at the books that were written by the members

1463
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 10: of the board. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm so mad about this,

1464
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:45,040
Speaker 10: Like we'll nicking after Empire is really good?

1465
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 8: It is? Yeah, And I like I don't know how

1466
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:52,520
Speaker 8: much I can like hold those individual board members responsible,

1467
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 8: and it seems like so many of them are like

1468
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:57,439
Speaker 8: just now finding out about it. Yeah, that's some abuse.

1469
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 8: One on one is to make sure that the person

1470
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 8: that you are exploiting, that you were, you know, taking

1471
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 8: advantage of that, they don't feel like they can say

1472
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 8: to people who could help them, this is what's happening

1473
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 8: to me, and that like the people who would be sympathetic,

1474
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 8: could you know, go and take the initiative to help folks.

1475
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 8: And ungrateful that we have a meeting with Robert Peters

1476
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 8: coming up soon. It was supposed to happen that has

1477
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 8: not yet, and I appreciate how dedicated he is and

1478
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 8: his staff is to making sure that our union sits

1479
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 8: down and talks with him.

1480
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:32,040
Speaker 11: But it is also like there's a deep irony for

1481
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 11: him accepting an award from another union and rescheduling a

1482
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 11: meeting with.

1483
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:36,560
Speaker 9: Ourskay do it?

1484
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:38,960
Speaker 8: No, no, no, no, no, it's because we have Jacob, I

1485
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 8: always say it incorrectly asked me. Yeah, the BigInt. But

1486
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 8: that's also like part of the other great community support.

1487
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 8: Like I mentioned that UE employee, but you know, there

1488
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 8: are other union employees who just because they love the

1489
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 8: bookstore so much, will show up to every outreach event

1490
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 8: that we have. He was one of the first people

1491
01:21:57,880 --> 01:21:59,680
Speaker 8: to have a yard sign, and it's funny he was

1492
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 8: right now to this guy from my church who also

1493
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 8: has a been no sign, and that's why I found

1494
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 8: out they were neighbors. Yeah, it's really cute. But like,

1495
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 8: I'm proud that we're Wobbley's because there is a really

1496
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 8: long tradition of you know, being in Chicago, a lot

1497
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 8: of radical organizing that I think fits our spirit and

1498
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 8: also like the seminary co op spirit. It has been

1499
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,919
Speaker 8: hard that we don't have a lot of resources towards bargaining,

1500
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:25,799
Speaker 8: but like we're good at direct action and we also

1501
01:22:25,840 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 8: have I'll give it the ask Me Award. I'll give

1502
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 8: it a pass because Jacob's been so and other community

1503
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 8: members have been so helpful and just giving their time

1504
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 8: and their skills and their expertise.

1505
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:39,719
Speaker 11: So yeah, yeah, the MSI Union, the grad Students' Union

1506
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,240
Speaker 11: in particular, have been incredible allies to us and have

1507
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 11: been they were huge like presences on our picket because like,

1508
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 11: because we did an open store running picket, we had

1509
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:54,599
Speaker 11: only about half of our actual union members available because

1510
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 11: everyone else had to be on desks in the stores

1511
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:59,720
Speaker 11: keeping them running. And so the majority of the people

1512
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:02,599
Speaker 11: who were like collecting signatures to get Jenny Goltz fired

1513
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 11: and otherwise improve our wardening conditions were people from other

1514
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 11: unions who were just out there being wonderful, awesome, solid

1515
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 11: argy with us.

1516
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:11,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1517
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:13,519
Speaker 9: So my first picket line, I mean, I think it

1518
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 9: makes its last episode, but my first picket line ever

1519
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 9: was the grad student picket line in twenty nineteen. Those

1520
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 9: those the first time I was ever want a picket

1521
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 9: and it rocks. Yeah, and yeah, it makes it really

1522
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 9: happy to see that the whole base of sort of

1523
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:31,439
Speaker 9: union organizing from that has like you know, it's it's

1524
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:33,439
Speaker 9: this thing that like I remember when this was like

1525
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:35,080
Speaker 9: you know, like I was there and like one of

1526
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 9: the big pushes everyone. They finally won, and it's like

1527
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:41,160
Speaker 9: they're still around helping people because workers workers fucking fight

1528
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 9: together and.

1529
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 11: Well and then they'll always be like, hey, one thing

1530
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:47,639
Speaker 11: that we know about Jenny GOLs is she likes to lose, and.

1531
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:51,519
Speaker 8: We're like, thank thank you. Then it's not that she

1532
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 8: likes to use the quote, is she's very good at

1533
01:23:54,160 --> 01:24:00,640
Speaker 8: losing which that's true. Even better. Yeah, like what you

1534
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 8: were saying about GSU, I don't remember what I think,

1535
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 8: Like two thousand and eight. Two thousand and seven was

1536
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 8: like when they said we starting organizing for unionizing the

1537
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:11,760
Speaker 8: graduate students. I had a roommate who was like a

1538
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 8: twelve year PhD student who was around when that shit started.

1539
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 8: You can just count hanging out with your wife in

1540
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 8: Australia as a field research, I guess.

1541
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 12: But.

1542
01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:27,400
Speaker 8: Well, she's just doing postdocs. You're just hanging out. But

1543
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 8: we had a baby yesterday anyway. Oh but yeah, like

1544
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 8: I was around he came back to finish his PhD

1545
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 8: like about the time, like when the contract was ratified,

1546
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 8: and I just with what is it, sixteen seventeen months

1547
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 8: of bargaining no contract in the name of my blessed

1548
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:50,360
Speaker 8: Lord Jesus Christ. Like Jesus Christ. GSU has had, like

1549
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 8: has such a wealth of knowledge because they've been through

1550
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,479
Speaker 8: just like heaps of bullshit and it's years.

1551
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 9: It's like, okay, I will like you the the fucking

1552
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 9: gs you think they had a whole thing when I

1553
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:04,600
Speaker 9: was there, like in like twenty nineteen, the whole the

1554
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 9: whole thing was that and like Jenuay. This is like

1555
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 9: one of the most admirable things I've ever seen a

1556
01:25:09,320 --> 01:25:14,160
Speaker 9: union do, which was they refused to take their their

1557
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,599
Speaker 9: case because the university was refusing to recognize them, and

1558
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 9: they they refused to take their case to the NLRB

1559
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:22,280
Speaker 9: because they knew that if they did it, there was

1560
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:24,160
Speaker 9: there was a pretty good chance that the old Trump

1561
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:26,639
Speaker 9: n l RB was going to like bust every single

1562
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:29,759
Speaker 9: graduate school union in the country. So instead of trying

1563
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:32,519
Speaker 9: to win for themselves, they fucking didn't do it and

1564
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:36,320
Speaker 9: just like fought on picket lines instead, and it fucking rocked.

1565
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:41,400
Speaker 9: It was case like that they rock. They're they're great,

1566
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:44,679
Speaker 9: Like yeah, yeah, shout out, shout outs shout out to GSU.

1567
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, shout out to GSU.

1568
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:50,600
Speaker 11: Well, And they are a great, great, great example to

1569
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:55,640
Speaker 11: us all in terms of like how to persist on

1570
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:58,639
Speaker 11: a fight through attrition, because one of the things that

1571
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 11: like you try so hard as a management team to

1572
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:04,759
Speaker 11: do is just wait until ever and gets tired and leaves.

1573
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:07,000
Speaker 11: And like it seems like Grand Students would be the

1574
01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 11: perfect population just just wait out because they rotate out constantly.

1575
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:14,720
Speaker 11: But like just the way that they have managed to

1576
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:18,639
Speaker 11: maintain energy through generations and generations of organizers and get

1577
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 11: it over the line at long Lives is so encouraging.

1578
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's the thing I remember from I think the

1579
01:26:37,160 --> 01:26:39,720
Speaker 5: last place I read into it was like one of

1580
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 5: Mike Duncan's things about the French Revolution.

1581
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 9: But like one of the things he talked about was

1582
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:47,280
Speaker 9: like the ways in which part of what caused the

1583
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,439
Speaker 9: French Revolution was that like they spent a whole bunch

1584
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,760
Speaker 9: of time teaching all of these kids these like incredibly

1585
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 9: radical enlightenment ideas and then they were like, wait, we

1586
01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 9: live in like the most absolute water key that has

1587
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 9: ever existed. What the fuck?

1588
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:00,479
Speaker 11: I hate this?

1589
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:01,519
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1590
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, Like wait, hold on, And it's like there

1591
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:09,639
Speaker 9: is obviously always sort of contradictions between like the number

1592
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:12,639
Speaker 9: of people I have seen write books about labor resistance

1593
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:15,880
Speaker 9: and then like go bust unions is pretty large. But

1594
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 9: there's a reason why everyone from like Pinochet through like

1595
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:25,719
Speaker 9: the Trump administration, I mean back through like the original Nazis.

1596
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 9: It's like one of the first places and you know,

1597
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 9: I mean like the Greek riot plays had this thing

1598
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 9: where it was like the first place you go when

1599
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 9: there's discontent is like you must stop the workers from

1600
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 9: from allying with the students. You must do.

1601
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:39,639
Speaker 3: This or you're fucked.

1602
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:44,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, But the workers and the students love each other.

1603
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 11: They're all kissing. Yeah, And we're the.

1604
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 8: Same person sometimes, you know. Yeah, so often.

1605
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:53,519
Speaker 9: Yep, yep, yep.

1606
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 8: All my comrades a kiss on the forehead, y ah.

1607
01:27:58,120 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1608
01:27:58,360 --> 01:27:59,600
Speaker 9: And I think like that is I think like the

1609
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,760
Speaker 9: filment of all of this is like the way that

1610
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:07,360
Speaker 9: one campaign winning can transform the lives of everyone else

1611
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 9: around you is so astonishing. And I've seen it happen

1612
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 9: in so many places where like one shop wins and

1613
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 9: suddenly everyone else is like, it could be us, It

1614
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 9: could be us.

1615
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:22,440
Speaker 8: Yes, it's possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1616
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 11: Well, and I think that we're trying to capitalize on

1617
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 11: that and trying to make sure that we can be

1618
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 11: the next person to like capitalize on GSU's win and

1619
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 11: help ms I do the same. But like, as much

1620
01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 11: as we have really suffered from the at the table

1621
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 11: bargaining uhiating process and been really sort of beaten down

1622
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:48,080
Speaker 11: in the past year on that battleground, I think we

1623
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:53,160
Speaker 11: have learned so much about the allies that surround us

1624
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 11: and the people who like want to do more than

1625
01:28:57,200 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 11: just email our board members, and we're like, we don't

1626
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 11: know what else you can do because we don't know

1627
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:05,400
Speaker 11: who makes these decisions for you to yell at. But

1628
01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:08,280
Speaker 11: we have so many people who have like signed up

1629
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:10,000
Speaker 11: for an email list with us, so many people who

1630
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,360
Speaker 11: are like ready to go as soon as we figure

1631
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:13,439
Speaker 11: out what we need them to do.

1632
01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:15,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, and that's.

1633
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:19,000
Speaker 11: Been really encouraging and bolstering, while management continues to like

1634
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:22,519
Speaker 11: just not acknowledge us when they feel too cornered. Like

1635
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:25,920
Speaker 11: they simply never spoke of the picket because it happened

1636
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 11: outside and so they couldn't be mad about it, so

1637
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:29,760
Speaker 11: they didn't have to tell us all about it, but

1638
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:32,519
Speaker 11: they also just didn't speak of it.

1639
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is Chicago is a motherfucking union town, and

1640
01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 8: that's what. Yeah, I'll admit I'm angry when I go

1641
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:46,800
Speaker 8: into work. They don't care enough to get the mold

1642
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 8: and the dust remediated, you know, and the DUTs, and

1643
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:52,880
Speaker 8: I can't really breathe when I go into work. And

1644
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:56,639
Speaker 8: I also don't have health insurance right, oh my god, Well,

1645
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:58,439
Speaker 8: I do have health insurance, but I have to pay

1646
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:00,080
Speaker 8: for like, you know, I have to pay for my

1647
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:03,320
Speaker 8: own premiums through a marketplace there. Yeah, and that's that's

1648
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:08,320
Speaker 8: not really affordable. And like, as frustrated as I am

1649
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:11,640
Speaker 8: like coming into work, it is it's the people you know,

1650
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 8: And I think that's for a lot of folks who

1651
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:15,599
Speaker 8: have stayed at the bookstore. I don't know how much

1652
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 8: you relate to this then, like it has been like

1653
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:21,240
Speaker 8: other booksellers, the folks that we've gotten to know through

1654
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 8: the community, who like who do make a difference at

1655
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:28,280
Speaker 8: least for me and whether or not I stay. Oh, absolutely, yeah,

1656
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:29,200
Speaker 8: this is a good fight.

1657
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:35,200
Speaker 11: The union crew that we have is a incredibly worthwhile

1658
01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 11: team to be on. It is a group of people

1659
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 11: that I feel very solid standing shoulder to shoulder with.

1660
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 11: I think that is, like, without question, one of the

1661
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,920
Speaker 11: things that like keeps the stores a place that you

1662
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,160
Speaker 11: can work, even if it's not a good.

1663
01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 8: Place to work right now.

1664
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:53,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, And honestly, I think that would have sustained

1665
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 11: me a lot longer if you were different, you know.

1666
01:30:57,360 --> 01:30:58,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah for sure.

1667
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 10: Wait, okay, sorry, could ripole back to the part where

1668
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:04,559
Speaker 10: you can't breathe because there's I feel like because there's

1669
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,519
Speaker 10: bolds I feel like you just dropped that very quickly.

1670
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:09,439
Speaker 9: It was like, oh, yeah, that's like a normal bar

1671
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:09,840
Speaker 9: of the work.

1672
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:11,240
Speaker 4: What the thought.

1673
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:15,000
Speaker 11: Well, so for a very long time you've been allowed

1674
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 11: to request that you only work at the co op

1675
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 11: because there is a known mode problem at fifty seventh

1676
01:31:20,439 --> 01:31:23,479
Speaker 11: Street that they can't afford to or can't get the

1677
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:28,160
Speaker 11: landlord to ameliorate. But there is also at least in

1678
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:33,600
Speaker 11: our lung experience some sort of growth issue in the

1679
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 11: venting at the seminary.

1680
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:38,880
Speaker 8: Come up, Yeah, it's it's very dusty at beast. And

1681
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 8: like I when I wear like like a kN ninety

1682
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 8: five for a little bit, like that helps a little.

1683
01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:47,280
Speaker 8: I take like five bena drill usually and then that

1684
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,479
Speaker 8: je's that kind of that kind of helps. And that's

1685
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 8: more just I think, like I mean not more. That

1686
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 8: is in part like my own health. But if I

1687
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:58,479
Speaker 8: had the resources too be able to take care of

1688
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:00,760
Speaker 8: my health and get what I need, maybe I could

1689
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 8: withstand the mold and the dust and the ducks a

1690
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 8: little bit easier.

1691
01:32:04,200 --> 01:32:06,639
Speaker 9: But like that well, but also like like as an employer,

1692
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:09,240
Speaker 9: it is your responsibility to not have your workplace poison

1693
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:13,280
Speaker 9: your employees, Like I'm sorry, like that part yeah, yeah, yeah,

1694
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:16,120
Speaker 9: that also make them pay for the medical care to

1695
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:19,360
Speaker 9: treat medical problems that they're having because you'd poison them

1696
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:19,920
Speaker 9: with mold.

1697
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:26,120
Speaker 10: Like what that's yeah, what Jesus Christ, it's so evil.

1698
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 11: Well, and we had a couple of pauses in our

1699
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 11: first draft of the Collective Bardnaining Agreement that included demands

1700
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:37,880
Speaker 11: regarding mold remediation at fifty seventh Street, and I do

1701
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 11: believe th clauses have been struck in subsequent round.

1702
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:46,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a thing that you

1703
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:48,960
Speaker 9: could ask people to do, which is go ask people

1704
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 9: to complain about the fucking mold. Like it seems like

1705
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:54,200
Speaker 9: a thing you could do.

1706
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's another direct action. I also noticed, like people

1707
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 8: in the store, like they cough when they enter. Yeah,

1708
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:04,439
Speaker 8: you know, and like, oh god, this is where the

1709
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 8: like the snake eats its own tail. The wheel turns

1710
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 8: inside the fucking wheel, right, because like maybe, like if

1711
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 8: I'm giving them good faith benefit of the doubt, management

1712
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,200
Speaker 8: would have if they weren't overloaded with so many tasks

1713
01:33:16,240 --> 01:33:17,960
Speaker 8: that they have to take on, you know, sort of

1714
01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:22,240
Speaker 8: more supervisory management. If y'all didn't have to do all

1715
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:25,600
Speaker 8: these tasks, maybe you would have time to If there

1716
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:28,360
Speaker 8: are more people hired in the bargaining unit, perhaps you

1717
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:31,760
Speaker 8: could yourself have more time to improve the conditions for

1718
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:33,800
Speaker 8: the store, not just for your workers, but also for

1719
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:35,839
Speaker 8: the people who enter the stores.

1720
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:36,919
Speaker 12: But because people.

1721
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,640
Speaker 8: Hire new workers until there's a contract, you are just

1722
01:33:39,680 --> 01:33:41,840
Speaker 8: so overworked and you can't and it's just like this

1723
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:45,040
Speaker 8: this turns until the boss decides that it doesn't, and

1724
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 8: it's like this is their responsibility to to bargain in

1725
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:51,160
Speaker 8: good faith and to treat their workers correctly, Like this

1726
01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:54,040
Speaker 8: is an active decision that they could make that they

1727
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:54,719
Speaker 8: are not making.

1728
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:58,360
Speaker 9: So yeah, I gotts say that that might be the

1729
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 9: single wildest thing I've ever heard, like an hour into

1730
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:04,200
Speaker 9: an interview, is oh, yeah, they're poisoning.

1731
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:08,800
Speaker 11: Guys in the mold, just the mold. It's just also

1732
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 11: just like prove that this is the craziest place to work,

1733
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:13,960
Speaker 11: because like that doesn't even land on our radar anymore

1734
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 11: because we've been just like banging our head against walls

1735
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:17,559
Speaker 11: for a year.

1736
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:23,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I keep going back to

1737
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 9: the abusive relationship metaphor, but like that is one of

1738
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 9: the big things about the beusive relationships is that because

1739
01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 9: of the information control and because of the way that

1740
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:33,280
Speaker 9: your world gets condensed down into a really really tiny,

1741
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 9: narrow set of experiences where you're isolated and you're only

1742
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 9: interacting with like one person who was controlling everything about

1743
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:44,559
Speaker 9: your life. It becomes really difficult to see things that

1744
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:47,280
Speaker 9: are very, very obviously wrong the moment you step out

1745
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 9: of it. Yeah, and you know, I don't know. Maybe

1746
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:53,240
Speaker 9: it turns out having absolutely hierarchical relationships of control is

1747
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:57,519
Speaker 9: an extremely bad way to run literally anything, especially the

1748
01:34:57,560 --> 01:34:59,840
Speaker 9: thing that your livelihood depends on, that you do most

1749
01:34:59,840 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 9: of your time.

1750
01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 11: Just to thought, wow, well, and it also just like

1751
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 11: means that you are too busy to actually interface in

1752
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:11,680
Speaker 11: any meaningful way with your workers. Like, yeah, if I

1753
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:14,320
Speaker 11: tell you that it took me two thirds of the

1754
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:18,720
Speaker 11: day to schedule a fifteen minute conversation with any of

1755
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:22,679
Speaker 11: four managers who were on site to quit, I would

1756
01:35:22,680 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 11: not be lying.

1757
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:27,639
Speaker 9: Jesus Christ. They can't even take your resign, bitch.

1758
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:33,680
Speaker 11: They at one point tried to reschedule that conversation which

1759
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 11: I was attempting to have on Friday to Monday, and

1760
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:37,320
Speaker 11: I was like, I think you want.

1761
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 9: To know this. Yeah, it's like managers, you two are

1762
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:43,480
Speaker 9: getting you too, are getting.

1763
01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:46,280
Speaker 10: Strewed over by by understaffing.

1764
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:50,559
Speaker 8: Oh my god, I do think that's starting to take

1765
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 8: a toll to on management, which is a little encouraging.

1766
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 8: They're losing it. Yeah, they are not feeling well, and

1767
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,800
Speaker 8: because like for me, I don't know, I'm not gonna

1768
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:04,719
Speaker 8: trust a boss like I just stated, for three months

1769
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:08,120
Speaker 8: in the nineteen ninety seven UAW strike like that's oh yeah,

1770
01:36:08,120 --> 01:36:12,120
Speaker 8: bosses are canceled. Yeah you know, I know how that ended.

1771
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:16,080
Speaker 8: But I remember one of the supervisors who who we've

1772
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:18,760
Speaker 8: had one point in her like her previous career had

1773
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:20,800
Speaker 8: been on a picket line for a very long time,

1774
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:24,760
Speaker 8: had been on strike, and she like immediately took one

1775
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:27,960
Speaker 8: of our little sabocat reed pins put it on her backpack,

1776
01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:30,400
Speaker 8: and is otherwise like, as far as I can tell,

1777
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:34,240
Speaker 8: generally supportive of the union, but also man lady, I

1778
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:36,479
Speaker 8: wish she would make a stink mm hmm.

1779
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:39,200
Speaker 11: Because here's the thing. I think she only talks to us.

1780
01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:41,800
Speaker 11: I feel like the other managers do not speak to her.

1781
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 11: I yeah, am I crazy.

1782
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 8: Yeah I could just talk about that for a very

1783
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:49,800
Speaker 8: long time, and I don't think we have the time.

1784
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:53,120
Speaker 9: So yeah, yeah, before we get into what can people

1785
01:36:53,160 --> 01:36:54,599
Speaker 9: do the help? Is there anything else that you want

1786
01:36:54,640 --> 01:36:56,240
Speaker 9: to make sure that you get to.

1787
01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:59,760
Speaker 11: I think the big thing that we should emphasize too

1788
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 11: is as much as we are complaining and frustrated about

1789
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 11: the process, we know that this is not impass and

1790
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:11,439
Speaker 11: that we are so sure that like there is still

1791
01:37:11,479 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 11: negotiating to be done, there is still conversation to be had,

1792
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 11: and that like we have been emphasizing that at every

1793
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:20,559
Speaker 11: opportunity to management as we have to. But like, just

1794
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:24,479
Speaker 11: because we are tired and frustrated means nothing in terms

1795
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:26,240
Speaker 11: of us giving up, because this is a fight that

1796
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:27,120
Speaker 11: is going to continue.

1797
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, And like to that point, Finn, we're doing

1798
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:35,720
Speaker 8: this because we love the stores. Like the stores were

1799
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 8: a really important place for me, just putting down roots

1800
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:42,320
Speaker 8: in the neighborhood. And I think when you love something

1801
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:44,680
Speaker 8: a lot, like you got to be brave enough to

1802
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:48,200
Speaker 8: wrestle with it. And that our unionizing is the right thing.

1803
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:51,240
Speaker 8: It is the thing that will like hopefully create an

1804
01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:55,280
Speaker 8: environment where the people who make that bookstore run, who

1805
01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 8: sell the books. In the long run, it will make

1806
01:37:58,479 --> 01:38:01,599
Speaker 8: the institution healthier, do believe, and just that we've been

1807
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 8: talking about like this metaphor as the boss of like

1808
01:38:05,160 --> 01:38:08,799
Speaker 8: as an abusive partner. I think for so many folks

1809
01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 8: when they are whether it's something like domestic violence, or

1810
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:15,000
Speaker 8: it's in a union campaign, or you're speaking out against

1811
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:17,320
Speaker 8: you know, your neighbors being abducted and shot and killed

1812
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:20,080
Speaker 8: in the street, there is such an expectation that I

1813
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:22,759
Speaker 8: have to sit by and be quiet while this happens.

1814
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:25,600
Speaker 8: And part of that, I think, what does prevent and

1815
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:28,280
Speaker 8: at least in my experience as someone who survived, you know,

1816
01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:31,519
Speaker 8: particular kinds of violence that Yeah, I wasn't sure I

1817
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:35,400
Speaker 8: was doing the right thing, but us unionizing is absolutely

1818
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:37,759
Speaker 8: the right thing. It is the right thing for the stores.

1819
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:39,760
Speaker 8: It is the right thing for the community and for

1820
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:42,760
Speaker 8: the workers. And I just as much as I'm frustrated,

1821
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:46,439
Speaker 8: like I know myself and my fellow booksellers are doing

1822
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:48,920
Speaker 8: this out of love, Like it is absolutely love for

1823
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:50,639
Speaker 8: the stores in the community we serve.

1824
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:54,840
Speaker 11: So yeah, we're never going to feel bad for continuing

1825
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:57,400
Speaker 11: to fight for what is the right.

1826
01:38:57,280 --> 01:39:00,200
Speaker 8: Thing to do. Yeah, I'm too broke to feel bad.

1827
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:06,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, don't be poisoned by bold. Every time you go

1828
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:08,000
Speaker 9: to the bookstore, support the union.

1829
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:12,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, wear your mask at seminary co op. Yeah, take

1830
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:13,599
Speaker 11: a sab acap pin.

1831
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 8: Yeah. Ask to talk to a manager, make it a

1832
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:17,880
Speaker 8: long talk.

1833
01:39:18,040 --> 01:39:20,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, honestly, see if you can get one on the floor,

1834
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 11: we'll help you.

1835
01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:21,720
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1836
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:24,400
Speaker 9: So how can people help support y'all? And do you

1837
01:39:24,520 --> 01:39:27,200
Speaker 9: have places where people can find more information about the

1838
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:28,759
Speaker 9: campaign and follow updates?

1839
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:32,840
Speaker 8: We have a change dot org petition that I think

1840
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:35,000
Speaker 8: if you can link it somewhere in the description.

1841
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 9: Yep, yeah, we will link in the description.

1842
01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:41,280
Speaker 8: Yeah. So that that does ask folks to sign off

1843
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 8: and support the termination of Jenny Goltz, their union busting lawyer,

1844
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:47,919
Speaker 8: as well as releasing like the full state of financial

1845
01:39:47,920 --> 01:39:51,840
Speaker 8: information too. So there's a change dot org petition. You

1846
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:55,679
Speaker 8: can also follow us on Instagram at some booksellers union

1847
01:39:56,320 --> 01:40:00,360
Speaker 8: We've got the little icon with the sabocat sign up tian.

1848
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:03,160
Speaker 8: There are also some action items on some of the posts,

1849
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 8: such as emailing the board and management about the release

1850
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:10,440
Speaker 8: of financial information and also the termination of Jenny Golts's employment.

1851
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 8: You can also emailed those emails on that post about

1852
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:15,840
Speaker 8: the mold too. If you want me to breathe at work.

1853
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:20,200
Speaker 16: Yeah, I'm so glad about this.

1854
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 10: This is I am going to lead the description with

1855
01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:27,040
Speaker 10: they are poisoning you, because like, I'm so angry about this.

1856
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 8: Thank you, I'm too tired to be angry about it.

1857
01:40:31,600 --> 01:40:34,679
Speaker 11: I'm so glad at this woman the French perspective has

1858
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 11: remembered that the mold is totally bogus, because I had forgotten.

1859
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:43,840
Speaker 8: It's crazy. Yeah, it's so bogus. It's also like it's

1860
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:46,679
Speaker 8: in such plain sight, like if you're in fifty seven

1861
01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:49,080
Speaker 8: Street Books and you look to the right of the

1862
01:40:49,120 --> 01:40:51,960
Speaker 8: air conditioning unit and room one, you see that shit

1863
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:55,360
Speaker 8: growing on the walls, and it's like, but I also

1864
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:58,360
Speaker 8: feel like if I talked to management, which I tried

1865
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:01,760
Speaker 8: about this, it just is a got a priority. My

1866
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:06,160
Speaker 8: breathing not a priority. Yeah, it is wild. Thank you

1867
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:06,920
Speaker 8: for reminding me.

1868
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:10,200
Speaker 9: That someone one day, when you win, someone's going to

1869
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 9: write a paper by necropolitics in this or something like good.

1870
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:21,000
Speaker 8: Lord, jeez, yeah some shit. Yeah, sign the petition, follow

1871
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:22,920
Speaker 8: us on Instagram, help us make our.

1872
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 11: Ruckus and come talk to us and our managers at

1873
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:30,000
Speaker 11: the bookstore because we love to talk to people while we.

1874
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:33,920
Speaker 8: Saw them books. Yeah. Yeah, I'll take any good will

1875
01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 8: we can get, so very much.

1876
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:39,080
Speaker 9: So hell yeah, Well, thank you to both so much

1877
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:43,760
Speaker 9: for coming on and just for doing this and I

1878
01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:45,840
Speaker 9: don't know, like a place that was really special to

1879
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:48,320
Speaker 9: me when I was yeah, when I was there for

1880
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 9: a long time.

1881
01:41:48,920 --> 01:41:51,559
Speaker 8: Thanks for your help, Thank you for following up with us.

1882
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 11: Of course, it's really nice to have this platform every

1883
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:55,479
Speaker 11: so often.

1884
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 8: Yeah for sure.

1885
01:41:58,120 --> 01:42:01,040
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, well, hopefully we'll have you back on when

1886
01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:01,720
Speaker 9: you fucking win.

1887
01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:06,640
Speaker 11: And yes, very round.

1888
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:11,719
Speaker 8: I'm buying I'm personally buying the cool Zone media team

1889
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:15,280
Speaker 8: around at Jimmy's. When we win our contract.

1890
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,440
Speaker 11: I will come back to my park just for the celebration.

1891
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:26,599
Speaker 8: Change everyone's oil while you're down to yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

1892
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:27,400
Speaker 8: don't take that long.

1893
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:28,559
Speaker 11: I won't be ready for a second.

1894
01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:33,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, this is, this has been. It could happen here,

1895
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 9: and you too can resist both your abuser and your boss,

1896
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:39,679
Speaker 9: even when they're the same person, and.

1897
01:42:39,680 --> 01:43:00,679
Speaker 17: You should, ay man, get them and welcomed.

1898
01:43:00,720 --> 01:43:03,000
Speaker 7: It could happen here. I'm Andrew's age.

1899
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 6: I run andrewism over on YouTube, but I'm here on

1900
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:09,680
Speaker 6: this podcast with the one and only.

1901
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,520
Speaker 9: Mia Wong, who does this podcast most of the time.

1902
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:19,040
Speaker 6: Exactly exactly, and I think you and I both have

1903
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:23,760
Speaker 6: something in common, which is that we are people, and

1904
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 6: we are two people, but the world has a lot

1905
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:29,439
Speaker 6: more than just two people. It's a really convoluted way

1906
01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:31,800
Speaker 6: of saying that. For this episode, we're going to be

1907
01:43:31,840 --> 01:43:36,439
Speaker 6: talking about population. You know, how many of people there are,

1908
01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:39,040
Speaker 6: and how many of them there will or will not

1909
01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:42,800
Speaker 6: be in the future, and all the different conversations that

1910
01:43:42,920 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 6: end up happening around.

1911
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:48,240
Speaker 9: That, most of which suck. So it's a time truly.

1912
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1913
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,720
Speaker 6: I mean, every single one of us humans is a

1914
01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:57,320
Speaker 6: product of billions of years of reproduction. But for most

1915
01:43:57,320 --> 01:44:00,840
Speaker 6: of that reproduction, population growth was pretty slow.

1916
01:44:01,479 --> 01:44:01,640
Speaker 3: You know.

1917
01:44:01,680 --> 01:44:03,000
Speaker 7: The world's population is.

1918
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:08,960
Speaker 6: Estimated at around five million in the eight thousand BC.

1919
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 6: So five million is like the population of New Zealand

1920
01:44:14,720 --> 01:44:19,479
Speaker 6: right now, or Costa Rica, or Ireland or Norway, but

1921
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:22,880
Speaker 6: spread across the entire planet. Can you get so many

1922
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:25,519
Speaker 6: people who are alive in the year one? See though,

1923
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:30,720
Speaker 6: thirty million that's actually an underestimate. It's one hundred and

1924
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:35,599
Speaker 6: eighty eight million, jeez, right, So that's between the current

1925
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:39,840
Speaker 6: population of Bangladesh and the current population of Brazil, which

1926
01:44:39,840 --> 01:44:42,599
Speaker 6: are at one hundred and sixty nine million and two

1927
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 6: hundred and thirty million, respectively. But that's spread across the

1928
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:49,479
Speaker 6: entire planet. So I mean imagine that, you know, a

1929
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:53,200
Speaker 6: whole world of people so spread out. I mean they

1930
01:44:53,240 --> 01:44:55,760
Speaker 6: were concentrated into innarios, of course, but you had all

1931
01:44:55,760 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 6: this vast forest land and plains and entire content ccidents

1932
01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:06,160
Speaker 6: that barely had people compared to today. And the reason

1933
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:09,120
Speaker 6: the population grew so slowly was really because, I mean,

1934
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:13,800
Speaker 6: humans have always been doing the do you know, but

1935
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:19,560
Speaker 6: death was kind of a very present phenomenon.

1936
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 7: You know.

1937
01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:23,840
Speaker 6: You had famines, you had plagues, you had the occasional war,

1938
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:28,160
Speaker 6: and you especially had a lot of infant mortality. Yeah,

1939
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:32,360
Speaker 6: and that's what really kept populations in check. You know,

1940
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:35,880
Speaker 6: I remember hearing I don't even remember who it was,

1941
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 6: but this one person had like nineteen children and only

1942
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:43,440
Speaker 6: eight of them survived to adulthood.

1943
01:45:44,000 --> 01:45:48,559
Speaker 9: Yeah, they honestly did pretty good, like by those metrics, Like, yeah,

1944
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:52,000
Speaker 9: then infant mortality rate was unbelievably high.

1945
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1946
01:45:53,200 --> 01:45:55,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, So families had a lot of children, but only

1947
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 6: a few of them made it to adulthood. Thanks to

1948
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:02,160
Speaker 6: the industrializations, were able to change a bit. You know,

1949
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:08,600
Speaker 6: we improved agriculture, we invented refrigeration, we got better fertilizer,

1950
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:13,840
Speaker 6: and most importantly, we developed advancements in sanitisia. You know,

1951
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:18,160
Speaker 6: doctors were actually washing their hands. You know, we developed vaccines,

1952
01:46:18,439 --> 01:46:20,919
Speaker 6: so children were dying of measles and mumps.

1953
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:24,400
Speaker 7: Imagine that, good Lord.

1954
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:28,840
Speaker 6: And we also had an overall improvement in medicine. You know,

1955
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:31,600
Speaker 6: one of the greatest inventions of humanity, I think is

1956
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:36,519
Speaker 6: the vaccine. And it's such a wonderful thing that there's

1957
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:41,479
Speaker 6: not this massive movement of people who challenge it's very

1958
01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:45,000
Speaker 6: legitimacy in this day and age, and threaten all of

1959
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:46,040
Speaker 6: our lives as a result.

1960
01:46:46,320 --> 01:46:48,320
Speaker 7: You know, imagine being in that world.

1961
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:50,080
Speaker 9: God.

1962
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:54,920
Speaker 6: So we eventually hit one billion in the year eighteen

1963
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:58,880
Speaker 6: oh four, which is just below the current population of China,

1964
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:01,840
Speaker 6: and things began to accelerate from there. We end up

1965
01:47:01,840 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 6: creating something called a Jacob of exponential population growth thanks

1966
01:47:07,520 --> 01:47:11,000
Speaker 6: to like I said, the decline in infant mortality and

1967
01:47:11,160 --> 01:47:15,360
Speaker 6: improvements and fertility and food production and the other billionaire

1968
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:19,479
Speaker 6: milestone started rolling it. By eighteen oh four, Kiti had

1969
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:24,040
Speaker 6: just gained its independence. Napoleon the First was crowned Emperor France,

1970
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:28,400
Speaker 6: and Lewis and Clark had begun their expedition across America

1971
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:32,160
Speaker 6: in nineteen twenty seven. As one hundred and twenty three

1972
01:47:32,240 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 6: years later, we hit two billion people. You know, by

1973
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:39,920
Speaker 6: then we had Trotsky being expelled from the USSR, which

1974
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:43,720
Speaker 6: had just been founded. We had Charles Linnenberg completing the

1975
01:47:43,760 --> 01:47:47,840
Speaker 6: first solo non stop flight across the Atlantic Ocean. And

1976
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:51,120
Speaker 6: then also in nineteen twenty seven, we had the release

1977
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:55,160
Speaker 6: of the first feature length film to feature synchronized sound

1978
01:47:55,280 --> 01:47:59,000
Speaker 6: for dialogue. Quite the time to be Alive. The fast

1979
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:01,640
Speaker 6: forward to thirty three year later, nineteen sixty, and we

1980
01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:06,080
Speaker 6: hit three billion people. By then, Nigeria had just gained

1981
01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:09,479
Speaker 6: it independence. GfK was in the White House, ham the

1982
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:13,240
Speaker 6: Chimpanzee went to space, and the FDA approved the first

1983
01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:17,000
Speaker 6: ever both control pill. But the birth control pill didn't

1984
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:20,360
Speaker 6: really kick in in terms of, you know, hampering our

1985
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:24,599
Speaker 6: growth for some time. By nineteen seventy four, fourteen years later,

1986
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:27,919
Speaker 6: we hit four billion people. By then, Nixon had resigned

1987
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:32,160
Speaker 6: to He had invaded Cyprus Portugal overthrow its dictatorship. The

1988
01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:36,080
Speaker 6: Godfather Part two came out, and Aber was still at

1989
01:48:36,120 --> 01:48:40,160
Speaker 6: the top of the charts. Nineteen eighty seven, thirteen years later,

1990
01:48:40,240 --> 01:48:42,840
Speaker 6: when we got five billion people. That's when we had

1991
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:46,160
Speaker 6: most of the major colonies around the world gain the

1992
01:48:46,240 --> 01:48:49,479
Speaker 6: independence or having already had gained the independence. You know

1993
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 6: Thatcher was beginning her third term and The Simpsons first

1994
01:48:54,439 --> 01:48:57,880
Speaker 6: appayed on TV. Twelve years later in nineteen ninety nine,

1995
01:48:58,120 --> 01:49:00,920
Speaker 6: we had the Y two K panic, the Impeach Month,

1996
01:49:01,040 --> 01:49:05,240
Speaker 6: the SpongeBob premiere, the introduction of the euro, and six

1997
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 6: billion people made their debut on planets twenty eleven. Twelve

1998
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:15,960
Speaker 6: years later we hit seven billion people, and that was

1999
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:18,880
Speaker 6: in the midst of the Arab Spring, a tsunami hit

2000
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:22,400
Speaker 6: in Japan, the Occupy movement, the premiere Game of Thrones,

2001
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:27,000
Speaker 6: and really the beginning of smartphones and social media taken

2002
01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:30,680
Speaker 6: over the world. Finally, by twenty twenty two, which is

2003
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:34,960
Speaker 6: eleven years after twenty eleven, we hit eight billion people.

2004
01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:40,560
Speaker 6: Amidst Russia invading in Ukraine, the growing popularity of TikTok,

2005
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:47,559
Speaker 6: and Elon's purchase of Twitter. So from eighteen four to

2006
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 6: twenty twenty two we went from one billion people to

2007
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:55,240
Speaker 6: eight billion people, and the un expected to grow by

2008
01:49:55,240 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 6: about one point nine billion between now and twenty one hundred,

2009
01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:02,080
Speaker 6: so we'll end up breaching from eight point two billion

2010
01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:06,120
Speaker 6: people to ten point two billion people, and population is

2011
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:09,840
Speaker 6: projected to peak at ten point three billion in twenty

2012
01:50:09,920 --> 01:50:12,799
Speaker 6: eighty four and then decline to ten point two billion

2013
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:17,120
Speaker 6: through the end of the century. So with this rapid

2014
01:50:17,720 --> 01:50:22,800
Speaker 6: population growth, there has been a lot of fayars surrounding overpopulation.

2015
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:26,959
Speaker 6: Particularly in the late twentieth century and early two thousands,

2016
01:50:26,960 --> 01:50:29,760
Speaker 6: there was a lot of conversation around, you know, this

2017
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:34,759
Speaker 6: population bomb, this worry that there were too many people. Now,

2018
01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:37,960
Speaker 6: at least early on in the population boom, I think

2019
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:42,559
Speaker 6: it makes some sense to have concerns. You know, there

2020
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:45,240
Speaker 6: had never been this many people on the eighth at

2021
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:47,439
Speaker 6: any point in time prior. You know, if you're watching

2022
01:50:47,479 --> 01:50:49,960
Speaker 6: the numbers climb and climb and climb, you might have

2023
01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:53,400
Speaker 6: thought we were headed straight for a planet covered in

2024
01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:57,680
Speaker 6: cities and some kind of collapse. But even before we

2025
01:50:57,800 --> 01:51:02,040
Speaker 6: even hit a billion people. Yeah, idea of overpopulation being

2026
01:51:02,280 --> 01:51:06,599
Speaker 6: a significant problem wasn't new. In late seventeen hundreds, Thomas

2027
01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:11,840
Speaker 6: Mauthus argued that population would always outpace food supply, and

2028
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:15,040
Speaker 6: his prediction was that there'd be tw many people, not

2029
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 6: enough resources, and a decline into famine, disease and mass death.

2030
01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:22,680
Speaker 7: Now he was.

2031
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:27,559
Speaker 6: Obviously proven wrong, but in nineteenth century Britain, Marthus's ideas

2032
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 6: helped justify the harsh wealthare policies that that government ended

2033
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:37,559
Speaker 6: up implementing, like the spread of workhouses around the country. Also,

2034
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:42,120
Speaker 6: we speak about faminis if it's this natural phenomenon that

2035
01:51:42,320 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 6: can't be helped, that is just almost like a hurricane

2036
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:50,439
Speaker 6: or a tornado. But famines are usually not actually the

2037
01:51:50,479 --> 01:51:53,440
Speaker 6: result of not having enough food.

2038
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:53,720
Speaker 7: You know.

2039
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:59,200
Speaker 6: Amartya Sen found that famines usually happened despite food surpluses.

2040
01:52:00,120 --> 01:52:04,160
Speaker 6: He was usually distribution and not scarcity, you know. A

2041
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:09,000
Speaker 6: famous example being you know, during the Irish famine, Ireland

2042
01:52:09,080 --> 01:52:14,000
Speaker 6: was still exporting tons of food to feed its colonial overlord.

2043
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:17,280
Speaker 6: So we fast forward to nineteen sixty eight and the

2044
01:52:17,320 --> 01:52:22,320
Speaker 6: biologist Paul Erlich publishes The Population Bomb. He describes visiting

2045
01:52:22,439 --> 01:52:27,800
Speaker 6: Delhi and feeling the crush of overpopulation, convinced that massterviation

2046
01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:31,760
Speaker 6: was imminent in the nineteen seventies. Now, I think that

2047
01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:35,400
Speaker 6: book that he published was one of the main influences

2048
01:52:35,439 --> 01:52:40,719
Speaker 6: in the widespread panic around overpopulation. You know, governments started

2049
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:44,639
Speaker 6: to scramble about a lot of policies were born, likely

2050
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:48,439
Speaker 6: from people reading that very book. You know, some of

2051
01:52:48,479 --> 01:52:52,479
Speaker 6: these policies were fairly benign. You know, you promote family planning,

2052
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:57,719
Speaker 6: you improve access to contraceptives, you improve education for women especially,

2053
01:52:58,280 --> 01:53:03,280
Speaker 6: But other approaches were very harsh and brutal. You know,

2054
01:53:03,320 --> 01:53:08,800
Speaker 6: you had sterilization campaigns, forced sterilization campaigns taking place in

2055
01:53:08,800 --> 01:53:13,400
Speaker 6: India and Puerto Rico and in the United States. China's

2056
01:53:13,439 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 6: one child policy also gets a lot of attention, but

2057
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:21,839
Speaker 6: it was only one example of a widespread brutality around

2058
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:27,960
Speaker 6: the impositions placed on women, especially in that time, the

2059
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 6: fear of too many people and that anxiety leading to

2060
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:36,040
Speaker 6: the control of women and their bodies. And it's a

2061
01:53:36,080 --> 01:53:39,720
Speaker 6: scary prospect, especially if you were a minority in this time,

2062
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 6: if you were a cultural, racial, or religious minority, Because

2063
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:46,960
Speaker 6: it made very ordinary human activity, things like moving around,

2064
01:53:47,439 --> 01:53:51,400
Speaker 6: having children, just existing being it seemed like an existential

2065
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:55,439
Speaker 6: threat to civilization, to humanity that needed to be dealt

2066
01:53:55,479 --> 01:54:11,080
Speaker 6: with by any means necessary. So they had some positive outcomes,

2067
01:54:11,120 --> 01:54:15,439
Speaker 6: of good positive outcomes of the overpopulation concerned. You know,

2068
01:54:15,479 --> 01:54:20,120
Speaker 6: you had pushes foreman's empowerment. You had the proposal of

2069
01:54:20,400 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 6: improved urbanization to reduce the sprawl of human activity. You

2070
01:54:25,160 --> 01:54:30,519
Speaker 6: also have people proposing things like extraterrestrial settlements, which you know,

2071
01:54:30,560 --> 01:54:35,240
Speaker 6: it's not really realistic as a solution for a multitude

2072
01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:36,160
Speaker 6: of valid reasons.

2073
01:54:36,400 --> 01:54:38,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's really.

2074
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:41,280
Speaker 6: Funny, you know, whenever other people push that sort of yeah,

2075
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:44,640
Speaker 6: humans are destined for the stars kind of narrative. You know,

2076
01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:49,240
Speaker 6: it's a story, a really powerful story coming out of

2077
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:52,000
Speaker 6: science fiction, and it's good that it has inspired people

2078
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:56,160
Speaker 6: to learn more about space, and you know that their

2079
01:54:56,160 --> 01:54:59,360
Speaker 6: lives to the study of the stars and that kind

2080
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:01,600
Speaker 6: of thing. But this idea that would to be shipping

2081
01:55:01,640 --> 01:55:05,440
Speaker 6: off like millions of people off planet to settle on

2082
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:10,240
Speaker 6: other planets, I think is pretty safely in the realm

2083
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:11,040
Speaker 6: of science fiction.

2084
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:14,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a full Like get back to me. In

2085
01:55:14,080 --> 01:55:17,680
Speaker 9: a thousand years, we could baby start talking about moving

2086
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:19,839
Speaker 9: like thousands of people.

2087
01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:23,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, even thousands or hundreds of people. I mean, we

2088
01:55:23,080 --> 01:55:26,680
Speaker 6: don't have those those massive generationships. We can't even get

2089
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:30,360
Speaker 6: those off the ground at this stage in our spacecraft.

2090
01:55:31,080 --> 01:55:33,240
Speaker 6: And we also have a lot of issues to resolve

2091
01:55:33,280 --> 01:55:36,800
Speaker 6: on Earth before we spread our problems across the galaxy

2092
01:55:36,840 --> 01:55:40,800
Speaker 6: as far as I'm concerned. But Beyond these solutions, the

2093
01:55:41,080 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 6: ideas and public discourses around population have also boothed a

2094
01:55:45,280 --> 01:55:48,720
Speaker 6: lot of conspiracy theories. You know, I'm sure you might

2095
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:51,560
Speaker 6: have heard a few of them in your time.

2096
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:56,000
Speaker 9: Oh boy, yep, this is one of the big Alex

2097
01:55:56,080 --> 01:55:59,440
Speaker 9: Jones things. For example, So he's convinced that there's like

2098
01:55:59,480 --> 01:56:03,040
Speaker 9: a giant plot by the globalists to kill off an

2099
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:06,800
Speaker 9: enormous part of human population to stop over population or something.

2100
01:56:06,960 --> 01:56:12,480
Speaker 6: It's yeah, yeah, Honestly, any combination of conspiracies can be

2101
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 6: smushed together to fit that kind of narrative, and they

2102
01:56:16,360 --> 01:56:20,760
Speaker 6: can talk about all the vaccine sterilizing people, the chemtrails,

2103
01:56:21,000 --> 01:56:26,240
Speaker 6: the five Gita was, the Bill Gates, microchips, they are

2104
01:56:26,280 --> 01:56:30,040
Speaker 6: even the food supply, all these things allegedly being used

2105
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:33,360
Speaker 6: to sterilize people. I'm not to say that there isn't

2106
01:56:33,880 --> 01:56:39,480
Speaker 6: validity to any claims of the things that we consume

2107
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:45,440
Speaker 6: contributing to lower fertility. The fact that we clothe ourselves

2108
01:56:45,440 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 6: in like polyester. You know, we still have a full

2109
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:53,000
Speaker 6: idea of the impact of microplastics on our bodies. You know,

2110
01:56:53,080 --> 01:56:58,280
Speaker 6: there's valid concerns about some of the consequences of the

2111
01:56:58,360 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 6: ultra processed foods that you know, fill out grocery shells.

2112
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:07,080
Speaker 6: But that's just the sad thing about conspiracy theories. You know,

2113
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:12,400
Speaker 6: they have some kleinos of truth mixed in to boster.

2114
01:57:12,600 --> 01:57:14,840
Speaker 6: They have validity, but then they mix it up with

2115
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:20,320
Speaker 6: a bunch of garbage about you know that's a nonsense. Yeah,

2116
01:57:20,360 --> 01:57:22,240
Speaker 6: And then of course, I mean some of these consciracy

2117
01:57:22,280 --> 01:57:23,360
Speaker 6: theories are kind of benign.

2118
01:57:23,480 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 7: You know, like if you think it's.

2119
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:28,200
Speaker 6: Five gitas, I guess you'd put a I don't know,

2120
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:30,840
Speaker 6: a tinfoil hat on your junk.

2121
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:35,040
Speaker 9: But I mean, to be fair, there was one of

2122
01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:37,960
Speaker 9: the five g guys who did like blow himself up

2123
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:39,200
Speaker 9: at a giant car bomb.

2124
01:57:39,320 --> 01:57:41,400
Speaker 7: I did not hear about that a couple of years

2125
01:57:41,400 --> 01:57:42,120
Speaker 7: ago down.

2126
01:57:42,440 --> 01:57:46,640
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, luckily he only killed himself, but giant giant

2127
01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:50,440
Speaker 9: car bomb in the middle of I wanted to say

2128
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:55,400
Speaker 9: Memphis or something down Yeah. But yeah, so like every

2129
01:57:55,440 --> 01:57:58,360
Speaker 9: once in a while he gets some real oh boys

2130
01:57:58,400 --> 01:57:59,160
Speaker 9: stuff from that.

2131
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:00,960
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah.

2132
01:58:01,360 --> 01:58:06,000
Speaker 6: I mean, honestly, people could take even the simplest things

2133
01:58:06,040 --> 01:58:09,040
Speaker 6: and turn it into a threat to themselves and others

2134
01:58:09,760 --> 01:58:12,160
Speaker 6: if they're not in the right headspace. So they haven't

2135
01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:16,400
Speaker 6: been given the right sports sad rely and obviously like

2136
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:18,480
Speaker 6: none of the conspiracies of A nine. I mean, if

2137
01:58:18,480 --> 01:58:22,160
Speaker 6: you have people rejecting vaccines, you know, it's almost like

2138
01:58:22,200 --> 01:58:25,640
Speaker 6: we're in the world that I alluded to earlier, you know,

2139
01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:28,800
Speaker 6: where we have our residence and measles.

2140
01:58:28,840 --> 01:58:29,520
Speaker 7: For example.

2141
01:58:30,160 --> 01:58:33,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, Jim O'Neil, who's the Deputy Secretary of Health and

2142
01:58:33,080 --> 01:58:36,600
Speaker 9: Human Services and the acting director for the CDC literally

2143
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:44,280
Speaker 9: on Monday, called for splitting the MMR vaccine it's multiple vaccines, like,

2144
01:58:44,320 --> 01:58:47,080
Speaker 9: which is basically which is just straight up the Andrew

2145
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:49,680
Speaker 9: Wakefield I think, like I've said this on seven podcasts

2146
01:58:49,720 --> 01:58:53,360
Speaker 9: on this show now, but this is literally just straight

2147
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:56,400
Speaker 9: up the Andrew Wakefield anti vaccine thing from the original

2148
01:58:56,480 --> 01:58:59,040
Speaker 9: giant anti vaccine panic in the nineties.

2149
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:00,600
Speaker 7: That was the autism seeing thing.

2150
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:03,440
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, like and this is this is this is

2151
01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:06,840
Speaker 9: the guy who's currently running the CDC. It's just being like, no, yeah,

2152
01:59:06,880 --> 01:59:07,640
Speaker 9: you should do this thing.

2153
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:09,400
Speaker 7: That's yeah, yeah, you guys are cooked.

2154
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:13,000
Speaker 9: Yeah again, this thing that was developed specifically so that

2155
01:59:13,040 --> 01:59:15,160
Speaker 9: Antie Wakefield could sell his own vaccine.

2156
01:59:15,880 --> 01:59:19,560
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean that's that's the thing.

2157
01:59:19,560 --> 01:59:21,920
Speaker 6: If I was conspiracy brain, I would say that actually

2158
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:28,680
Speaker 6: the popularization of vaccine conspiracies on social media sites contributes

2159
01:59:28,760 --> 01:59:31,920
Speaker 6: to exactly that kind of population control that those same

2160
01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:36,120
Speaker 6: conspiracy theorists famonga about. But that's if I was conspiracy brain,

2161
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:37,240
Speaker 6: which I'm not.

2162
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:43,080
Speaker 9: God, So someone someone believes that somewhere, absolutely, there is

2163
01:59:43,120 --> 01:59:46,040
Speaker 9: someone who's like, the anti vaxxers are a conspiracy to

2164
01:59:46,080 --> 01:59:48,160
Speaker 9: call them goal population or something like.

2165
01:59:49,480 --> 01:59:52,280
Speaker 6: No, because I mean, we have this very straightforwardly effective

2166
01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:55,520
Speaker 6: human invention and one of the best in the history

2167
01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:59,720
Speaker 6: of humankind. And you're telling me that a couple of

2168
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:06,600
Speaker 6: people on Facebook and are responsible for the entire government

2169
02:00:07,560 --> 02:00:13,080
Speaker 6: rejecting the effectiveness of vaccines and you know, jeopardizing the

2170
02:00:13,240 --> 02:00:14,640
Speaker 6: healthy entire population.

2171
02:00:15,560 --> 02:00:21,800
Speaker 9: Come on, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, the true believers are

2172
02:00:21,800 --> 02:00:22,600
Speaker 9: in charge now.

2173
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:28,200
Speaker 6: Indeed, indeed they are true believers, and of course people

2174
02:00:28,200 --> 02:00:32,280
Speaker 6: who stand to profit from the dip in the sales

2175
02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:37,760
Speaker 6: of paracetamol and whatever else. So they're those conspiracies about population.

2176
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 6: And then there's the typical far right Nazi conspiracies about

2177
02:00:42,760 --> 02:00:48,360
Speaker 6: great replacement, right, the idea that shataway elites orchestrating falling

2178
02:00:48,360 --> 02:00:53,160
Speaker 6: blue rates among white populations while encouraging immigration from the

2179
02:00:53,200 --> 02:00:56,600
Speaker 6: population boomen global seuth. I mean, of course, not all

2180
02:00:56,640 --> 02:00:59,680
Speaker 6: the global self is woomen population wise, a lot of

2181
02:00:59,760 --> 02:01:03,440
Speaker 6: please there's also experience in decline. It's a global problem.

2182
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:07,000
Speaker 6: But we're going to get to that. Unconnected, of course,

2183
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:09,520
Speaker 6: to those great replacement times. So you have the eco

2184
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:13,160
Speaker 6: fash with their worries about the environmental impact of population,

2185
02:01:14,080 --> 02:01:18,080
Speaker 6: and their twisted belief that environmental collapse could be solved

2186
02:01:18,160 --> 02:01:21,280
Speaker 6: by reducing the number of people, which usually ends up

2187
02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:24,280
Speaker 6: target in marginalized groups, which is exactly the kind of

2188
02:01:24,320 --> 02:01:27,760
Speaker 6: thinking that inspired real violence, like with the Christian shooter

2189
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:31,520
Speaker 6: in twenty nineteen. And of course the actual drivers of

2190
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:35,680
Speaker 6: ecological collapse are not poor families in India or Africa

2191
02:01:35,840 --> 02:01:39,320
Speaker 6: having too many kids. It's the over consumption of the

2192
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 6: global norse. You know, if you actually wanted to reduce consumption,

2193
02:01:44,280 --> 02:01:47,360
Speaker 6: reduce the impact of population on the planet, are you

2194
02:01:47,400 --> 02:01:49,480
Speaker 6: going to start with fewer people? Are going to start

2195
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:54,440
Speaker 6: with fewer billionaires flying private jets. You know, it's not

2196
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:57,800
Speaker 6: about the number of people they head count, it's about

2197
02:01:57,800 --> 02:02:01,600
Speaker 6: their lifestyles and the systems that support what those lifestyles.

2198
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:05,480
Speaker 6: You know, believing population is a very cheap, simplistic and

2199
02:02:05,600 --> 02:02:09,360
Speaker 6: cowardly get out of jail free code for the rich

2200
02:02:09,480 --> 02:02:12,880
Speaker 6: minority that drive this systemic crisis.

2201
02:02:13,280 --> 02:02:13,560
Speaker 3: Yep.

2202
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 9: The thing about this, obviously is that if you believe

2203
02:02:16,360 --> 02:02:18,240
Speaker 9: that you need to reduce the human population, that it's

2204
02:02:18,240 --> 02:02:19,760
Speaker 9: your obligation to go first.

2205
02:02:21,680 --> 02:02:23,560
Speaker 6: Yes, well, we are going to talk about those types

2206
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:27,520
Speaker 6: of people in the next episode. But you know, speaking

2207
02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:32,760
Speaker 6: of the overpopulation, I think nowadays at least an opposite

2208
02:02:33,080 --> 02:02:37,520
Speaker 6: concern that is dominating the headlines. You know, in wealthier,

2209
02:02:37,640 --> 02:02:41,320
Speaker 6: more developed countries, fertility tends to be lower, and that's

2210
02:02:41,360 --> 02:02:43,840
Speaker 6: tied to things like back to education, more women working,

2211
02:02:44,080 --> 02:02:47,920
Speaker 6: urban living, greater choices, greater access to contraception, et cetera.

2212
02:02:48,440 --> 02:02:51,480
Speaker 6: But in less developed countries, fertility is usually higher because

2213
02:02:51,600 --> 02:02:54,520
Speaker 6: children are often seen as both help and hands and

2214
02:02:54,600 --> 02:02:58,800
Speaker 6: future caregivers, and education and access to both control are

2215
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:01,960
Speaker 6: more limited. But the global fertility rate is now steadily

2216
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:06,120
Speaker 6: dropping due to that increasing development, greater access to birth control,

2217
02:03:06,240 --> 02:03:10,600
Speaker 6: creater education of women's rights, And there's a fair nowadays

2218
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:13,360
Speaker 6: where there won't be enough people to support the system

2219
02:03:13,440 --> 02:03:17,200
Speaker 6: as it has been built. Remember, capitalism is predicated on

2220
02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:22,760
Speaker 6: endless growth. When its population starts to decline, naturally, everything

2221
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:26,480
Speaker 6: that is building towards in terms of the amount of consumers,

2222
02:03:26,480 --> 02:03:30,440
Speaker 6: the amount of infrastructure, the amount of workers. Those are

2223
02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:33,320
Speaker 6: not going to be there anymore, especially as more and

2224
02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:36,560
Speaker 6: more people end up dipping out of the workforce as

2225
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:50,480
Speaker 6: they age. So in twenty three, the global average had

2226
02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:54,160
Speaker 6: dropped to just two point three children poor women, which

2227
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:57,000
Speaker 6: is less than half of what it was sixty years ago.

2228
02:03:57,320 --> 02:04:01,200
Speaker 6: According to the United Nations, fertility will keep fallen throughout

2229
02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:04,040
Speaker 6: the century, and by the year twenty one hundred, the

2230
02:04:04,080 --> 02:04:07,720
Speaker 6: global average is expected to dip the low replacement level

2231
02:04:07,800 --> 02:04:10,879
Speaker 6: of two point one to about one point eight children

2232
02:04:11,000 --> 02:04:15,600
Speaker 6: poor woman. Now, some countries are already there. Japan sits

2233
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:19,240
Speaker 6: at a one point two children poor woman, Italy, Spain,

2234
02:04:19,320 --> 02:04:22,080
Speaker 6: and much of Eastern Europe are well below one point five.

2235
02:04:22,760 --> 02:04:27,160
Speaker 6: South Korea is famously a demographic outlier at zero point

2236
02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:31,080
Speaker 6: seven children poor woman, which is the lowest facility rate

2237
02:04:31,120 --> 02:04:34,080
Speaker 6: in the world. And that means obviously that on average,

2238
02:04:34,160 --> 02:04:37,720
Speaker 6: Korean women are having less than one child each for

2239
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:43,120
Speaker 6: very valid reasons, I might add, considering the economic and

2240
02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:48,440
Speaker 6: cultural conditions in that country. Now, I don't live in

2241
02:04:48,480 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 6: Eastern Europe or Southern Europe or East Asia, I live

2242
02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:53,800
Speaker 6: in the Caribbean.

2243
02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:55,080
Speaker 7: I live in Trinan, Tobago.

2244
02:04:55,600 --> 02:04:59,760
Speaker 6: But speaking anecdotally at least, which obviously is not representative

2245
02:04:59,760 --> 02:05:03,120
Speaker 6: of the full picture, I can count, maybe had one hand,

2246
02:05:03,400 --> 02:05:06,800
Speaker 6: the number of people I know my age who think

2247
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:09,680
Speaker 6: that they'll be able to bring children into the world,

2248
02:05:10,080 --> 02:05:11,080
Speaker 6: whether they want.

2249
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:11,480
Speaker 7: To or not.

2250
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:15,280
Speaker 6: You know, very few people I know actually want children,

2251
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:17,920
Speaker 6: or if they do want children, they don't think they'll

2252
02:05:17,920 --> 02:05:21,400
Speaker 6: be able to afford to have children. But maybe that's

2253
02:05:21,400 --> 02:05:22,800
Speaker 6: a selfishness. What do you think.

2254
02:05:24,160 --> 02:05:28,560
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't know, like I am not interacting

2255
02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:35,200
Speaker 9: with a representative example of the population. But no, yeah,

2256
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:40,720
Speaker 9: I mean it's a lot of people who are like no,

2257
02:05:42,040 --> 02:05:44,520
Speaker 9: and it's too expensive. It sucks, I don't want to

2258
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:48,600
Speaker 9: deal with this. But again, like, not not a representative

2259
02:05:49,320 --> 02:05:50,600
Speaker 9: sample here.

2260
02:05:52,760 --> 02:05:56,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you could just look at

2261
02:05:56,320 --> 02:05:59,960
Speaker 6: the economy. Things have been getting wood for my entire life.

2262
02:06:00,160 --> 02:06:01,920
Speaker 6: You know, there hasn't been any point in my life

2263
02:06:01,960 --> 02:06:05,919
Speaker 6: where anyone in my generation could look around honestly and say, yeah,

2264
02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:08,240
Speaker 6: you know, this is we be cooking. You know, it's

2265
02:06:08,280 --> 02:06:11,720
Speaker 6: time to double double it. You know, let's have a child.

2266
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:14,040
Speaker 6: You know, the housing situation has gotten worse. The cost

2267
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:16,440
Speaker 6: of living and as a whole has gotten worse, child

2268
02:06:16,480 --> 02:06:20,160
Speaker 6: care costs have gotten worse. And of course, outside of

2269
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:24,160
Speaker 6: that economic stuff, there's also cultural attitude shifts and people

2270
02:06:24,200 --> 02:06:27,440
Speaker 6: realizing I don't need to have a child to be fulfilled,

2271
02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:31,240
Speaker 6: to find meaning. You know, people are able to pursue

2272
02:06:31,880 --> 02:06:36,880
Speaker 6: higher education, and also they're more educated about the process

2273
02:06:36,920 --> 02:06:41,840
Speaker 6: of child bearing in general, including the very valid medical

2274
02:06:42,040 --> 02:06:46,440
Speaker 6: concerns surrounding that whole process. I mean, if I were

2275
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:49,360
Speaker 6: a woman, I would not want to have a child.

2276
02:06:50,040 --> 02:06:54,880
Speaker 6: You know, the consequences on their bodies, on their minds,

2277
02:06:54,960 --> 02:06:58,040
Speaker 6: and their health, the risks to their very life are

2278
02:06:58,080 --> 02:07:01,880
Speaker 6: not something that can be swept aside as it was previously.

2279
02:07:01,920 --> 02:07:04,320
Speaker 6: People are aware of it now, people are talking about

2280
02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:07,160
Speaker 6: it now, and they are empowered to make decisions that

2281
02:07:07,720 --> 02:07:10,000
Speaker 6: be right for them. You know, a lot of people

2282
02:07:10,040 --> 02:07:12,560
Speaker 6: are also very much focused on their careers, either by

2283
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:15,040
Speaker 6: choice or because they don't have any other choice but

2284
02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:18,200
Speaker 6: to focus on putting food on the table. You know,

2285
02:07:18,240 --> 02:07:22,160
Speaker 6: people are also getting married later and as a whole,

2286
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:27,040
Speaker 6: we have shifted to what a more individual society. So

2287
02:07:27,080 --> 02:07:29,600
Speaker 6: you know, in the past you did have the extended families,

2288
02:07:29,680 --> 02:07:33,960
Speaker 6: the closet communities that made raising children a bit more manageable.

2289
02:07:34,600 --> 02:07:38,480
Speaker 6: But today it's a bit rarer to find, and you

2290
02:07:38,560 --> 02:07:41,000
Speaker 6: send to see a lot more nuclear families or even

2291
02:07:41,080 --> 02:07:44,880
Speaker 6: just individuals going at it a loonan you know, less

2292
02:07:44,880 --> 02:07:48,959
Speaker 6: support and more isolation, and so it makes it very difficult.

2293
02:07:50,200 --> 02:07:52,680
Speaker 6: And then there's the existential angst of it all. You know,

2294
02:07:52,720 --> 02:07:55,200
Speaker 6: I can't forget the fact that there are multiple wars

2295
02:07:55,280 --> 02:07:57,520
Speaker 6: waging around the world. You know, there's a lot of

2296
02:07:57,560 --> 02:08:00,800
Speaker 6: political instability in much of the world, and of course

2297
02:08:00,840 --> 02:08:05,600
Speaker 6: the biggest issue of all climate change, which makes it honestly,

2298
02:08:06,360 --> 02:08:09,560
Speaker 6: it makes it feel it responsible to even think about

2299
02:08:09,640 --> 02:08:14,640
Speaker 6: bringing a child into this mess. So a declining fertility,

2300
02:08:14,680 --> 02:08:18,960
Speaker 6: a decline in population, it has the government's panicing. You know,

2301
02:08:19,200 --> 02:08:22,800
Speaker 6: China went from having decades of a one child policy

2302
02:08:23,040 --> 02:08:26,520
Speaker 6: to now desperately trying to encourage people to have more babies.

2303
02:08:26,840 --> 02:08:30,960
Speaker 6: They're offering cash bonuses and housing books and extended parent

2304
02:08:31,080 --> 02:08:34,680
Speaker 6: to leave. But it's not really working. You know, as

2305
02:08:34,720 --> 02:08:37,240
Speaker 6: populations are aging, there's a lot more elderly people to

2306
02:08:37,360 --> 02:08:41,160
Speaker 6: care for and fewer workinish people to support them. So

2307
02:08:41,240 --> 02:08:44,480
Speaker 6: that is you know, a recipe for pension crises and

2308
02:08:44,560 --> 02:08:49,520
Speaker 6: labor shortages and spiral and healthcare costs. So some governments

2309
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:53,760
Speaker 6: are even trying to raise the retirement age, which, as

2310
02:08:53,880 --> 02:08:56,800
Speaker 6: France and their protests have shown, is not going to

2311
02:08:56,840 --> 02:08:59,720
Speaker 6: go over well with much of the population. Nobody wants

2312
02:08:59,720 --> 02:09:03,280
Speaker 6: to work extra five years and extra ten years more

2313
02:09:03,560 --> 02:09:06,360
Speaker 6: when they've already put so much of their lives to

2314
02:09:06,400 --> 02:09:12,360
Speaker 6: these dead end pointless and you know, mentally and physically

2315
02:09:12,440 --> 02:09:16,640
Speaker 6: dreaming tasks that really just line the pockets of their bosses.

2316
02:09:17,240 --> 02:09:18,880
Speaker 9: It is worth pointing out the last year there was

2317
02:09:18,920 --> 02:09:22,720
Speaker 9: a pretty massive raise in the retirement age people in China.

2318
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:26,640
Speaker 9: That's being phased in a way where're going to take

2319
02:09:27,400 --> 02:09:30,400
Speaker 9: over the course of fifteen years. It goes up gradually

2320
02:09:30,680 --> 02:09:33,680
Speaker 9: to sort of like spread out the anger over it.

2321
02:09:33,800 --> 02:09:36,440
Speaker 9: But yeah, it is worth noting that China's is like

2322
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:40,680
Speaker 9: significantly increased or is going to significantly increase over the

2323
02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:44,120
Speaker 9: course of the next fifteen years.

2324
02:09:43,080 --> 02:09:44,640
Speaker 7: M Yeah.

2325
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:47,680
Speaker 6: And then on the other side of things, there is

2326
02:09:47,720 --> 02:09:50,760
Speaker 6: in the retirement age now, but the young people who

2327
02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:53,640
Speaker 6: are working today are more than likely not going to

2328
02:09:53,680 --> 02:09:54,800
Speaker 6: get any kind of pension.

2329
02:09:55,360 --> 02:09:55,680
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2330
02:09:56,320 --> 02:10:00,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've rather the world of my sixty don't look

2331
02:10:00,840 --> 02:10:04,360
Speaker 6: like the world of my twenties, that would be my preference.

2332
02:10:04,880 --> 02:10:07,760
Speaker 6: So I would rather that we've reached a point as

2333
02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:11,920
Speaker 6: a society where pensions are not the necessary band aid

2334
02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:15,360
Speaker 6: that they are right now. But until then, you know,

2335
02:10:15,400 --> 02:10:18,000
Speaker 6: there's quite the powder keg.

2336
02:10:18,400 --> 02:10:19,520
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2337
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:21,720
Speaker 6: We also have in Eastern Europe, you know, you have

2338
02:10:21,800 --> 02:10:26,720
Speaker 6: countries rolling out pro natalist policies that tie financial support

2339
02:10:26,840 --> 02:10:30,680
Speaker 6: directly to family size. I'm going to get a bit

2340
02:10:30,760 --> 02:10:34,640
Speaker 6: more into pronatalists in the next episode. But there's also

2341
02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:40,000
Speaker 6: the darker side of that pronatalist push in terms of

2342
02:10:40,160 --> 02:10:45,800
Speaker 6: the policies meant to reverse the population decline. Some governments,

2343
02:10:46,000 --> 02:10:50,520
Speaker 6: instead of making life better for potential appearance, are criminalizing

2344
02:10:51,280 --> 02:10:54,360
Speaker 6: They're turning to anti choice policies. They are strict in abortion,

2345
02:10:54,440 --> 02:10:58,440
Speaker 6: and they're limited reproductive rights. They're demonizing child free lifestyles.

2346
02:10:58,960 --> 02:11:03,920
Speaker 6: Russia actually recently criminalized what they called child the free propaganda,

2347
02:11:04,440 --> 02:11:08,360
Speaker 6: you know. And then this is also part of a

2348
02:11:08,400 --> 02:11:12,720
Speaker 6: broader conversation about population where they have the immigration concerns

2349
02:11:12,760 --> 02:11:16,120
Speaker 6: as a political flashpoint because a lot of wealthy countries,

2350
02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:19,960
Speaker 6: because of their population decline, are starting to rely more

2351
02:11:20,120 --> 02:11:23,440
Speaker 6: on immigrants to keep their economies going. But as a

2352
02:11:23,480 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 6: flip side that tends to fuel backlash from the farhad

2353
02:11:27,000 --> 02:11:29,400
Speaker 6: groups who are able to frame it as a threat

2354
02:11:29,400 --> 02:11:32,880
Speaker 6: to national identity, and because the system of the states

2355
02:11:32,880 --> 02:11:35,640
Speaker 6: and capitalism is not interested in actually taking care of people,

2356
02:11:36,200 --> 02:11:40,080
Speaker 6: those immigrants become a very useful scapegoat.

2357
02:11:41,000 --> 02:11:41,200
Speaker 7: You know.

2358
02:11:41,240 --> 02:11:45,000
Speaker 6: Obviously, I'm in support of people moving and living wherever

2359
02:11:45,040 --> 02:11:47,880
Speaker 6: they want to move and live as they please. I

2360
02:11:47,920 --> 02:11:51,960
Speaker 6: don't believe in borders, especially as the climate consequences are

2361
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:55,400
Speaker 6: hitting those of us in the global South boost. But

2362
02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 6: I also I'm not a fan of the way that

2363
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:01,520
Speaker 6: some progressives end up talking about immigration, where they act

2364
02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:04,200
Speaker 6: as if, you know, the global sealth is like a

2365
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:08,560
Speaker 6: population bank that wealthy countries could tap into and you know,

2366
02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:12,320
Speaker 6: pull population from, regardless of the consequences on the home

2367
02:12:12,360 --> 02:12:16,600
Speaker 6: countries of these people. You know, it's like, let immigrants come,

2368
02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:19,280
Speaker 6: and I'm all for that, But then it's also like,

2369
02:12:20,040 --> 02:12:24,200
Speaker 6: your your government is destabilizing their governments, your your system,

2370
02:12:24,360 --> 02:12:27,360
Speaker 6: your economic system, and the global economic systems beaking life

2371
02:12:27,680 --> 02:12:31,960
Speaker 6: in those countries unlivable. And I think the priority also

2372
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:35,360
Speaker 6: needs to be on dealing with that issue and not

2373
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:37,880
Speaker 6: just shrugging and saying, well, you know, not. At least

2374
02:12:38,120 --> 02:12:42,040
Speaker 6: immigrants are able to help our economy stay aflut even

2375
02:12:42,160 --> 02:12:47,360
Speaker 6: as their countries languish and suffer. So to kind of

2376
02:12:47,400 --> 02:12:50,880
Speaker 6: wrap things up, where does this all leave us? You know,

2377
02:12:50,920 --> 02:12:54,000
Speaker 6: for centuries we feared having two many people, and now

2378
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:57,120
Speaker 6: we're signed to fair having too few people, and both

2379
02:12:57,120 --> 02:13:01,360
Speaker 6: anxieties are shaping policy, feel and racy theories and sparkan

2380
02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:06,160
Speaker 6: culture wars. And whether the future holds overcrowded cities or

2381
02:13:06,360 --> 02:13:11,320
Speaker 6: ghost towns really depends on the direction of politics, economy, culture,

2382
02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:12,200
Speaker 6: and urban designs.

2383
02:13:12,240 --> 02:13:12,480
Speaker 7: Teak.

2384
02:13:13,120 --> 02:13:15,000
Speaker 6: On the next episode, I'm going to be talking about

2385
02:13:15,040 --> 02:13:19,040
Speaker 6: the ideas around the population, the pro natalists and the

2386
02:13:19,040 --> 02:13:24,080
Speaker 6: anti natalists. But until then, I've been Andrew Sage here

2387
02:13:24,160 --> 02:13:28,080
Speaker 6: with Mia Wong on it could Happen Here.

2388
02:13:28,520 --> 02:13:28,600
Speaker 9: This.

2389
02:13:49,760 --> 02:13:54,640
Speaker 12: Trigger Trader, I heard ah, Hello, Welcome to It could

2390
02:13:54,680 --> 02:13:59,680
Speaker 12: Happen Here? The Spooky Special. I'm your host, Garrison Davis.

2391
02:14:00,400 --> 02:14:03,560
Speaker 12: Once again, there has been far too many important world

2392
02:14:03,560 --> 02:14:06,440
Speaker 12: events taking precedents that we here at the show are

2393
02:14:06,600 --> 02:14:11,120
Speaker 12: unable to provide listeners with an entire spooky week's worth

2394
02:14:11,280 --> 02:14:16,280
Speaker 12: of themed episodes. But I know how important Halloween is

2395
02:14:16,320 --> 02:14:19,640
Speaker 12: for many millennials, so I've taken it upon myself to

2396
02:14:19,640 --> 02:14:24,640
Speaker 12: produce two spooky episodes to book and the Holiday, this

2397
02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:28,240
Speaker 12: episode that you're listening to right now, as well as

2398
02:14:28,280 --> 02:14:32,200
Speaker 12: another that will release Monday morning or Sunday night. As

2399
02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:37,280
Speaker 12: the world is becoming an increasingly spooky, scary place, I

2400
02:14:37,360 --> 02:14:40,920
Speaker 12: needed to up the ante to exceed the weird and

2401
02:14:41,040 --> 02:14:44,800
Speaker 12: eerie fright that comes from living in America and the

2402
02:14:44,840 --> 02:14:49,160
Speaker 12: world in general in twenty twenty five. So last week

2403
02:14:49,400 --> 02:14:53,600
Speaker 12: I traveled from New York to Brussels, briefly caught up

2404
02:14:53,640 --> 02:14:56,800
Speaker 12: with my close personal friend and colleague Hinton, and then

2405
02:14:56,840 --> 02:15:01,760
Speaker 12: took the train to Germany. Very scary indeed, once in Germany,

2406
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:06,760
Speaker 12: I was confronted with seemingly occult words and symbols. People

2407
02:15:06,800 --> 02:15:10,760
Speaker 12: spoke in odd incantations. I came across a map that

2408
02:15:10,840 --> 02:15:15,280
Speaker 12: appeared via my black scrying mirror the iPhone, which, upon deciphering,

2409
02:15:15,520 --> 02:15:19,320
Speaker 12: led me to an old power plant warehouse in East Berlin.

2410
02:15:20,400 --> 02:15:24,280
Speaker 12: I entered this dark, looming building and inside the air

2411
02:15:24,440 --> 02:15:28,280
Speaker 12: was thick with smoke and incense. Figures dressed in all

2412
02:15:28,360 --> 02:15:33,320
Speaker 12: black emerged from the fog, Witches, wizards and magicians. I

2413
02:15:33,400 --> 02:15:37,600
Speaker 12: followed them into a candlelit room. Where hooded occultists conducted

2414
02:15:37,640 --> 02:15:42,000
Speaker 12: a ritual welcoming us to the twenty twenty five A

2415
02:15:42,160 --> 02:15:46,800
Speaker 12: Culture Conference. A Culture is a by yearly conference that's

2416
02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:51,000
Speaker 12: once every two years, focusing on the intersection of occultism

2417
02:15:51,160 --> 02:15:56,280
Speaker 12: and culture, pop or otherwise. This is arguably the most

2418
02:15:56,400 --> 02:16:00,880
Speaker 12: prestigious occultism conference in the world. I have been wanting

2419
02:16:00,920 --> 02:16:04,440
Speaker 12: to attend four years, and I was finally able to

2420
02:16:04,480 --> 02:16:07,280
Speaker 12: go this go round on the condition that I make

2421
02:16:07,360 --> 02:16:11,640
Speaker 12: four podcast episodes. The two that I'm releasing this week

2422
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:15,320
Speaker 12: and next will cover some of the core magical and

2423
02:16:15,400 --> 02:16:19,560
Speaker 12: topical currents throughout the conference, mostly via a panel discussion

2424
02:16:19,560 --> 02:16:24,919
Speaker 12: between myself and three other attendees, and then before Christmas,

2425
02:16:24,920 --> 02:16:28,680
Speaker 12: I'll have two fully scripted episodes interrogating these concepts further

2426
02:16:29,160 --> 02:16:33,440
Speaker 12: and discussing the use of occult practice in twenty twenty five.

2427
02:16:34,240 --> 02:16:38,160
Speaker 12: So to start, let's meet our panelists. I should introduce

2428
02:16:38,200 --> 02:16:46,760
Speaker 12: my magical travel team for this conference. Let's start with Delta,

2429
02:16:47,720 --> 02:16:51,400
Speaker 12: a Belgian magician and artist which I recruited to join

2430
02:16:51,440 --> 02:16:56,760
Speaker 12: me in this wacky adventure. Delta Sahi, Hello, what do

2431
02:16:56,800 --> 02:17:01,760
Speaker 12: you do, Delta? What's your magical specialty? I suppose well,

2432
02:17:01,800 --> 02:17:04,280
Speaker 12: it's kind of into the microphone. It's kind of a

2433
02:17:04,280 --> 02:17:05,680
Speaker 12: mix of things where.

2434
02:17:07,160 --> 02:17:07,920
Speaker 18: Part of it is.

2435
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:11,960
Speaker 12: Just into the microphone. I'm sorry, how you can you

2436
02:17:12,160 --> 02:17:13,720
Speaker 12: can you can get you can get prety close to.

2437
02:17:13,680 --> 02:17:17,200
Speaker 19: It, Okay. It's a kind of a mix of things

2438
02:17:17,240 --> 02:17:23,600
Speaker 19: really between conventional chaos magic and more theoretical like weird

2439
02:17:23,680 --> 02:17:27,640
Speaker 19: theory stuff like Mark Fisher and the CCRU adjacent things.

2440
02:17:27,800 --> 02:17:36,240
Speaker 12: We talk a lot about Mark Fisher, some landstuff, metafiction theory, fiction, hyperstition,

2441
02:17:36,560 --> 02:17:40,800
Speaker 12: Delta myself talk about magic through the Internet quite a

2442
02:17:40,800 --> 02:17:42,800
Speaker 12: bit and how it combines with cultural theory, which is

2443
02:17:42,840 --> 02:17:48,279
Speaker 12: relevant to this conference. Let's move over to my left.

2444
02:17:48,920 --> 02:17:51,680
Speaker 18: I've been recruited along on this magical journey. I'm Ryan.

2445
02:17:52,280 --> 02:17:57,400
Speaker 18: I practiced the Vasriana, a Greco Egyptian magical practice, and

2446
02:17:57,640 --> 02:18:03,560
Speaker 18: also am involved in a Haitian voodoo house. Prior to that,

2447
02:18:03,840 --> 02:18:06,640
Speaker 18: I was also an academic for a good period of

2448
02:18:06,680 --> 02:18:10,400
Speaker 18: time where I studied Renaissance rhetoric and political theory, philosophy,

2449
02:18:10,440 --> 02:18:13,600
Speaker 18: and economics. So my contributions are going to be wide

2450
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:14,080
Speaker 18: and varied.

2451
02:18:15,480 --> 02:18:18,039
Speaker 12: We've been making a lot of Hegel jokes this weekend,

2452
02:18:18,680 --> 02:18:22,400
Speaker 12: so many Hegel jokes our last crew member, which people

2453
02:18:22,440 --> 02:18:25,520
Speaker 12: may have heard before on various shows him.

2454
02:18:25,560 --> 02:18:31,680
Speaker 20: My name is Elaine, and I make art and research

2455
02:18:32,600 --> 02:18:36,720
Speaker 20: a lot of Renaissance script mark magic, and most of

2456
02:18:36,760 --> 02:18:39,920
Speaker 20: the things I do are a lot of idiosyncratic practices

2457
02:18:40,000 --> 02:18:45,240
Speaker 20: and based on various folk magic and chaos magic and

2458
02:18:45,760 --> 02:18:46,760
Speaker 20: Balkan folk magic.

2459
02:18:47,080 --> 02:18:51,560
Speaker 12: Before we continue the conversation between myself and my three guests,

2460
02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:56,599
Speaker 12: let's start by discussing the word a culture, the namesake

2461
02:18:56,720 --> 02:19:00,320
Speaker 12: of the conference. Obviously, this is a combination of the

2462
02:19:00,360 --> 02:19:04,480
Speaker 12: word ac cult and culture, and it describes how the

2463
02:19:04,560 --> 02:19:09,440
Speaker 12: two influence and possibly undermine one another. To read a

2464
02:19:09,520 --> 02:19:13,879
Speaker 12: quote from the person who originated the term, quote, a

2465
02:19:13,920 --> 02:19:18,199
Speaker 12: culture is a word that was inevitable during the hyperactive

2466
02:19:18,280 --> 02:19:21,480
Speaker 12: phase of the Temple of Psychic Youth in the nineteen eighties.

2467
02:19:21,840 --> 02:19:25,720
Speaker 12: We were casting around for an all embracing term to

2468
02:19:25,800 --> 02:19:30,480
Speaker 12: describe an approach to combining a unique, demystified spiritual philosophy

2469
02:19:30,720 --> 02:19:34,720
Speaker 12: with a fervent insistence that all life and art are indivisible.

2470
02:19:35,680 --> 02:19:38,760
Speaker 12: At any given moment, our sensory environment is whispering to us,

2471
02:19:38,840 --> 02:19:44,240
Speaker 12: telling us hidden stories, revealing subliminal connections. This concealed dialogue

2472
02:19:44,280 --> 02:19:48,800
Speaker 12: between every level of popular cultural forms and magical conclusions

2473
02:19:48,920 --> 02:19:53,760
Speaker 12: is what we named a culture unquote. That is from

2474
02:19:53,959 --> 02:19:58,920
Speaker 12: genesis b Puurage a musician, magician, artist, a cult leader,

2475
02:19:59,280 --> 02:20:04,360
Speaker 12: and hashtag slightly problematic queer icon. In the seventies, they

2476
02:20:04,400 --> 02:20:08,840
Speaker 12: started the band Throbbing Gristle, pioneered industrial music, and later

2477
02:20:08,959 --> 02:20:12,480
Speaker 12: started the Chaos magic organization, the Temple of Psychic Youth

2478
02:20:12,879 --> 02:20:17,560
Speaker 12: and its associated band Psychic TV. Though a culture did

2479
02:20:17,560 --> 02:20:22,000
Speaker 12: not just describe this sort of personal spiritual movement, it

2480
02:20:22,080 --> 02:20:27,120
Speaker 12: carried a strong offensive element targeted against society and perceived

2481
02:20:27,200 --> 02:20:31,440
Speaker 12: systems of control. Through their many projects, including Throbbing Gristle

2482
02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:35,000
Speaker 12: Psychic TV in the Temple of Psychic Youth, Purage utilized

2483
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:38,520
Speaker 12: art and magical practice to conduct a quote unquote war

2484
02:20:38,760 --> 02:20:42,520
Speaker 12: on culture. Similar to another figure that will soon get

2485
02:20:42,560 --> 02:20:47,039
Speaker 12: to william S. Burrows, a culture describes a process of

2486
02:20:47,120 --> 02:20:53,920
Speaker 12: cultural osmosis. The occult bleeds into and morph's culture, affecting

2487
02:20:53,920 --> 02:20:58,200
Speaker 12: everything from pop culture to politics and philosophy. But as

2488
02:20:58,240 --> 02:21:05,959
Speaker 12: a part of this osmosis, the occult becomes increasingly commodified, knowable, safe, territory, marketable.

2489
02:21:06,440 --> 02:21:10,760
Speaker 12: The hidden occult loses its very essence of being hidden

2490
02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:15,600
Speaker 12: despite its use as a tool of attack against mainstream culture.

2491
02:21:16,280 --> 02:21:21,000
Speaker 12: Like most countercultural forms, the occult has been largely recuperated.

2492
02:21:21,920 --> 02:21:26,680
Speaker 12: Even creative works which our genuine explorations into the occult

2493
02:21:27,240 --> 02:21:33,160
Speaker 12: fall into this recuperation herodigm. They get turned into products

2494
02:21:33,640 --> 02:21:38,199
Speaker 12: consumed by mostly secular audience, like the works of Dueling Wizards,

2495
02:21:38,320 --> 02:21:42,920
Speaker 12: Allen Moore and Grant Morrison. Now some occultists rejoice, knowing

2496
02:21:42,959 --> 02:21:46,560
Speaker 12: that this wide exposure will influence more people to become

2497
02:21:46,680 --> 02:21:50,920
Speaker 12: interested in or adopt occult practices of their own, while

2498
02:21:50,959 --> 02:21:56,160
Speaker 12: others bemoan this dilution and commodification of what to them

2499
02:21:56,280 --> 02:22:00,520
Speaker 12: is an important spiritual practice. As the modern occult revival,

2500
02:22:00,840 --> 02:22:04,360
Speaker 12: along with a heavy helping hand of scientific advancement, de

2501
02:22:04,600 --> 02:22:09,760
Speaker 12: territorialized Christian hegemonic religion. Now the occult itself has been

2502
02:22:09,840 --> 02:22:13,199
Speaker 12: re territorialized, which is not to say that the occult

2503
02:22:13,280 --> 02:22:16,440
Speaker 12: is no longer a field of play, which is what

2504
02:22:16,680 --> 02:22:21,199
Speaker 12: this conference attempts to assert. Let's go back to the panel.

2505
02:22:21,959 --> 02:22:24,440
Speaker 18: In terms of the conference itself, as we'll get into later,

2506
02:22:24,640 --> 02:22:30,800
Speaker 18: the term a culture very specifically seems to be focused

2507
02:22:30,840 --> 02:22:37,120
Speaker 18: on the study of the interrelation of magical practice and

2508
02:22:37,160 --> 02:22:42,280
Speaker 18: the material aspects of occult culture and its influence and

2509
02:22:42,320 --> 02:22:48,280
Speaker 18: appropriation by wider society. So in terms of political projects

2510
02:22:48,360 --> 02:22:51,360
Speaker 18: or social projects, you can probably relate this. I think

2511
02:22:51,360 --> 02:22:53,040
Speaker 18: that it would be fair to say that it's something

2512
02:22:53,120 --> 02:22:56,520
Speaker 18: like culture jamming if we're looking for some familiar concepts

2513
02:22:56,560 --> 02:22:59,360
Speaker 18: for people to map onto. That is to say, a

2514
02:22:59,400 --> 02:23:02,200
Speaker 18: focus of way from simply solitary practice in the ways

2515
02:23:02,240 --> 02:23:07,480
Speaker 18: in which occult elements influence broader aspects of our society

2516
02:23:07,680 --> 02:23:12,360
Speaker 18: or are appropriated, whether that's through consumerist forces or through

2517
02:23:12,480 --> 02:23:15,760
Speaker 18: various artistic practices, or even the production of for example,

2518
02:23:16,680 --> 02:23:20,960
Speaker 18: film television movies. So I think that's a fair assessment

2519
02:23:21,000 --> 02:23:23,080
Speaker 18: of the impacts of a culture.

2520
02:23:23,200 --> 02:23:26,520
Speaker 12: And relevant to our discussion later. It's influenced in the

2521
02:23:26,560 --> 02:23:30,680
Speaker 12: tech sector and the emergence of AI, which the current

2522
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:34,920
Speaker 12: manifestation of has some heavily occult origins regarding around a

2523
02:23:34,920 --> 02:23:37,119
Speaker 12: whole bunch of people in the nineties who were writing

2524
02:23:37,200 --> 02:23:40,600
Speaker 12: about AI as this as this occult project, and that

2525
02:23:40,800 --> 02:23:44,920
Speaker 12: influenced many a AI engineer and coder who are now

2526
02:23:45,040 --> 02:23:48,240
Speaker 12: building this stuff and it's becoming an ever present part

2527
02:23:48,240 --> 02:23:50,720
Speaker 12: of our lives, and the occultists now are trying to

2528
02:23:50,720 --> 02:23:53,040
Speaker 12: incorporate it into their own practice, which we will discuss

2529
02:23:53,440 --> 02:23:57,160
Speaker 12: in a sect. Any other notes on a culture as

2530
02:23:57,200 --> 02:24:01,560
Speaker 12: a concept or what this conference is doing with the concept.

2531
02:24:01,720 --> 02:24:04,240
Speaker 20: I think a culture is a concept is something that's

2532
02:24:04,280 --> 02:24:08,080
Speaker 20: basically been around as long as there's been magical practices,

2533
02:24:08,240 --> 02:24:12,760
Speaker 20: just looking at so much of things, like you know,

2534
02:24:12,800 --> 02:24:15,640
Speaker 20: the concept of the British Empire being invented by John

2535
02:24:15,720 --> 02:24:19,240
Speaker 20: d because of conversations he was having with angels. So

2536
02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:24,960
Speaker 20: I think that naming it and calling it something is

2537
02:24:25,320 --> 02:24:28,720
Speaker 20: also very much felt like an attempt to sort of

2538
02:24:28,720 --> 02:24:34,520
Speaker 20: regain control over the ways that magical practice and greater

2539
02:24:34,640 --> 02:24:38,560
Speaker 20: society seem to influence each other, as opposed to a

2540
02:24:38,800 --> 02:24:43,280
Speaker 20: more unintentional way that they have been going back and

2541
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:46,840
Speaker 20: forth for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

2542
02:24:47,400 --> 02:24:49,840
Speaker 18: There may also be one other aspect that's important for

2543
02:24:49,879 --> 02:24:53,560
Speaker 18: our American audience is given that we're recording this in Deutschland,

2544
02:24:54,360 --> 02:25:01,199
Speaker 18: this conference varies significantly from other American equivalent, or something

2545
02:25:01,200 --> 02:25:04,840
Speaker 18: that might be an American equivalent formerly Pantheaicon in and

2546
02:25:04,840 --> 02:25:08,560
Speaker 18: around San Francisco and San Jose specifically, or Paganicon in

2547
02:25:08,600 --> 02:25:11,440
Speaker 18: the Twin Cities, which specifically has much more of a

2548
02:25:11,640 --> 02:25:18,360
Speaker 18: new age neopagan reconstructionist, and so most academic discussion is

2549
02:25:18,480 --> 02:25:22,800
Speaker 18: viewed with some suspicion. And I'm hesitant to say that

2550
02:25:22,840 --> 02:25:26,039
Speaker 18: there's an anti intellectual trend because I don't necessarily think

2551
02:25:26,080 --> 02:25:29,840
Speaker 18: that's true. However, there is a resistance to the kind

2552
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:33,360
Speaker 18: of academic styling that we saw very prevalent at this

2553
02:25:33,480 --> 02:25:37,720
Speaker 18: conference to talk about the occult more generally as an

2554
02:25:37,800 --> 02:25:41,920
Speaker 18: area of study in addition to just idiosyncratic practice or

2555
02:25:42,040 --> 02:25:46,760
Speaker 18: part of a larger social neopagan movement, which is again

2556
02:25:47,080 --> 02:25:49,600
Speaker 18: very much the focus of most US based conferences.

2557
02:25:50,440 --> 02:25:56,199
Speaker 12: As an editorial note, when we're talking about magic, to clarify,

2558
02:25:56,800 --> 02:26:00,279
Speaker 12: we're not talking about stage magicians. We're referring to magic

2559
02:26:00,440 --> 02:26:05,080
Speaker 12: with a K. That is, rituals and practices based on

2560
02:26:05,240 --> 02:26:09,240
Speaker 12: occult knowledge. It seeks to cause change in accordance with will,

2561
02:26:09,520 --> 02:26:13,760
Speaker 12: whether that's changed within yourself or in our consensus reality.

2562
02:26:14,560 --> 02:26:19,000
Speaker 12: Occult magical practice can also serve as a form of spirituality, mysticism,

2563
02:26:19,400 --> 02:26:23,880
Speaker 12: an alternative religious practice or an alternative to religion, with

2564
02:26:23,920 --> 02:26:28,800
Speaker 12: its beliefs in practice largely influenced by historical esoteric orders,

2565
02:26:29,160 --> 02:26:34,879
Speaker 12: mystery traditions, paganism, witchcraft, herbalism, astrology, hermantic philosophy, and alchemy,

2566
02:26:35,280 --> 02:26:38,400
Speaker 12: and all these things are influences. I'm not saying that

2567
02:26:38,640 --> 02:26:42,160
Speaker 12: the actual historic manifestations of these things are the same

2568
02:26:42,840 --> 02:26:46,520
Speaker 12: as the modern occult practices that are influenced by these things,

2569
02:26:46,560 --> 02:26:50,160
Speaker 12: because often these can be wildly varying, especially when you

2570
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:53,680
Speaker 12: talk about things like witchcraft and alchemy, which have been

2571
02:26:54,040 --> 02:26:58,560
Speaker 12: misinterpreted or reconstructed into completely new forms than what the

2572
02:26:58,640 --> 02:27:02,800
Speaker 12: historical manifestation of them actually contained. But a lot of

2573
02:27:02,959 --> 02:27:08,119
Speaker 12: modern day ocultism has manifested as an individually mediated spirituality

2574
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:12,000
Speaker 12: containing some of the group ritual or ritual aspects of

2575
02:27:12,040 --> 02:27:17,840
Speaker 12: something like Catholicism, but with the individuality of Protestantism. Many

2576
02:27:18,120 --> 02:27:22,760
Speaker 12: conferences have an opening ceremony, and as I previously mentioned,

2577
02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:27,120
Speaker 12: a culture had an opening ritual. This accomplishes a very

2578
02:27:27,120 --> 02:27:31,039
Speaker 12: similar goal to any opening ceremony, to get attendees in

2579
02:27:31,120 --> 02:27:34,080
Speaker 12: a certain headspace, prepare them for the rest of the conference,

2580
02:27:34,440 --> 02:27:36,640
Speaker 12: and set a certain mood in which the rest of

2581
02:27:36,680 --> 02:27:40,600
Speaker 12: the events will kind of follow suit. The a culture

2582
02:27:40,800 --> 02:27:46,240
Speaker 12: opening ritual called upon the attendee's demiurgic capacity. How they

2583
02:27:46,280 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 12: are part of creating the reality of what this conference

2584
02:27:49,840 --> 02:27:53,199
Speaker 12: is and how it will continue for the next few days.

2585
02:27:53,920 --> 02:27:57,240
Speaker 12: Back to the panel. The framing of the ritual was

2586
02:27:57,320 --> 02:28:01,720
Speaker 12: a blindfolded woman holding the scales of balance, and each

2587
02:28:01,920 --> 02:28:05,160
Speaker 12: person put a intention for the week, or for the conference,

2588
02:28:05,280 --> 02:28:08,720
Speaker 12: or for themselves into a stone, which was handed out

2589
02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:10,880
Speaker 12: to each person who entered the ritual, and at certain

2590
02:28:10,879 --> 02:28:13,840
Speaker 12: point these stones were placed on to the scales of

2591
02:28:14,000 --> 02:28:17,880
Speaker 12: balance to create an equilibrium between the two sides of

2592
02:28:17,920 --> 02:28:22,880
Speaker 12: the scale, along with the you know, chanting, meditation, and

2593
02:28:23,040 --> 02:28:24,240
Speaker 12: a lot of incense.

2594
02:28:24,320 --> 02:28:28,560
Speaker 18: A significant deal of incense given that we were in

2595
02:28:28,720 --> 02:28:33,840
Speaker 18: a former German forge warehouse. The you know, billowing smoke

2596
02:28:33,879 --> 02:28:37,080
Speaker 18: that existed throughout the conference, from fires to incense to

2597
02:28:37,360 --> 02:28:41,680
Speaker 18: various other inflammatory items was rather impressive. But in terms

2598
02:28:41,680 --> 02:28:46,320
Speaker 18: of actual ritual design, it met several elements that I

2599
02:28:46,360 --> 02:28:49,320
Speaker 18: found to be rather impressive. One, it was encompassing of

2600
02:28:49,400 --> 02:28:52,240
Speaker 18: all of those elements that we would later expect to

2601
02:28:52,280 --> 02:28:55,360
Speaker 18: see in the actual body of the conference itself. In

2602
02:28:55,440 --> 02:28:59,520
Speaker 18: terms of like the artistic performances, the musical you know,

2603
02:29:00,200 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 18: metal golf music that was played, but also a very

2604
02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:08,560
Speaker 18: practical and open approach to ritual. It was highly inclusive.

2605
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:12,600
Speaker 18: Everyone who was there participated. It did an exceptional job

2606
02:29:12,640 --> 02:29:16,640
Speaker 18: I felt of actually bringing setting intention and adding to

2607
02:29:17,280 --> 02:29:19,240
Speaker 18: I don't know, at risk of sounding to new age

2608
02:29:19,280 --> 02:29:22,560
Speaker 18: the vibrations that we all felt as we engaged and

2609
02:29:22,600 --> 02:29:25,760
Speaker 18: were present. The theatrical quality, I have to say, was

2610
02:29:25,800 --> 02:29:27,160
Speaker 18: also very much.

2611
02:29:27,440 --> 02:29:28,200
Speaker 19: Dark and spooky.

2612
02:29:28,320 --> 02:29:30,160
Speaker 18: Dark and spooky, but something to be admired.

2613
02:29:30,200 --> 02:29:31,400
Speaker 2: They did a very good.

2614
02:29:31,320 --> 02:29:34,000
Speaker 12: Job, definitely one of the more high effort rituals of

2615
02:29:34,280 --> 02:29:37,800
Speaker 12: the weekend in terms of the performative aspect, with there

2616
02:29:37,800 --> 02:29:42,560
Speaker 12: being little less than a dozen hooded cloaked figures stationed

2617
02:29:42,560 --> 02:29:46,959
Speaker 12: at different points, either holding specific positions in a meditative

2618
02:29:47,000 --> 02:29:50,200
Speaker 12: state for probably over half an hour, standing still in

2619
02:29:50,240 --> 02:29:54,080
Speaker 12: a decision that would become uncomfortable, and swinging, swinging incense,

2620
02:29:54,200 --> 02:29:59,600
Speaker 12: or holding torches or lights. Setting intention specifically is usually

2621
02:30:00,160 --> 02:30:02,959
Speaker 12: you talk to these people. The first step of any

2622
02:30:03,040 --> 02:30:06,280
Speaker 12: kind of magical working is setting your intention for what

2623
02:30:06,320 --> 02:30:09,000
Speaker 12: the work is supposed to do or accomplish in you

2624
02:30:09,240 --> 02:30:13,920
Speaker 12: or out into the world. Mirroring the opening ritual, Culture

2625
02:30:14,000 --> 02:30:16,480
Speaker 12: twenty twenty five little booklet has a few paragraphs on

2626
02:30:16,640 --> 02:30:21,560
Speaker 12: the concept for this conference, talking about the cosmic craftsman

2627
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:24,120
Speaker 12: as the demiir to shapes matter and spirit alike who

2628
02:30:24,120 --> 02:30:28,840
Speaker 12: embodies creation and transformation, revealing both the light and the hidden,

2629
02:30:29,240 --> 02:30:33,000
Speaker 12: the shadowed face of the divine, as well as having

2630
02:30:33,160 --> 02:30:38,240
Speaker 12: cosmic balance and balancing destruction with creation and order and

2631
02:30:38,320 --> 02:30:44,160
Speaker 12: chaos and the hidden and the scene. The last paragraph

2632
02:30:44,240 --> 02:30:47,000
Speaker 12: in which I will read I think relates specifically to

2633
02:30:47,480 --> 02:30:51,720
Speaker 12: this show and the cultural political aspects quote. In the

2634
02:30:51,720 --> 02:30:55,720
Speaker 12: age of relentless acceleration, the craftsman becomes a figure of resistance.

2635
02:30:56,160 --> 02:30:59,840
Speaker 12: His patience and ritual discipline reclaims sacred time, restoring a

2636
02:31:00,160 --> 02:31:03,160
Speaker 12: them beyond the acceleration of modern life. A Culture twenty

2637
02:31:03,200 --> 02:31:06,680
Speaker 12: twenty five invites us to dwell in this threshold where creation, intuition,

2638
02:31:07,000 --> 02:31:12,440
Speaker 12: and the hidden divine converge, and with that we converge

2639
02:31:12,560 --> 02:31:27,640
Speaker 12: on an outbreak. Welcome back to the it could happen here,

2640
02:31:27,720 --> 02:31:32,680
Speaker 12: Spooky Special On the A Culture Conference. The figure name

2641
02:31:32,760 --> 02:31:37,320
Speaker 12: dropped the most throughout this conference might surprise some people,

2642
02:31:37,600 --> 02:31:41,400
Speaker 12: because I'm assuming most do not consider him to be

2643
02:31:41,560 --> 02:31:45,959
Speaker 12: an occultist or really a serious occult figure. The most

2644
02:31:46,000 --> 02:31:50,160
Speaker 12: discussed individual, at least in my experience of the conference,

2645
02:31:50,760 --> 02:31:55,720
Speaker 12: was not Alistair Crowley, John d someone like Lena Blovotsky,

2646
02:31:56,440 --> 02:32:01,440
Speaker 12: but in fact william S Burrows. And now we'll return

2647
02:32:01,640 --> 02:32:07,760
Speaker 12: to the panel to discuss the Burrosian current. Let's talk

2648
02:32:07,840 --> 02:32:14,000
Speaker 12: about what I would argue was the strongest current throughout

2649
02:32:14,280 --> 02:32:20,199
Speaker 12: this conference, what I'm gonna call the Burrosian current, relating

2650
02:32:20,400 --> 02:32:25,200
Speaker 12: to writer, beat poet, and mystic and occultists in his

2651
02:32:25,360 --> 02:32:28,720
Speaker 12: own right, William S Burrows and the magical technology that

2652
02:32:28,760 --> 02:32:32,800
Speaker 12: he either invented or popularized in the second half of

2653
02:32:32,879 --> 02:32:36,320
Speaker 12: the twentieth century and played a significant role in influencing

2654
02:32:36,959 --> 02:32:40,360
Speaker 12: successor movements such as chaos magic and even the work

2655
02:32:40,480 --> 02:32:44,840
Speaker 12: of the CCRU and Land and Fisher. The very first

2656
02:32:44,959 --> 02:32:48,119
Speaker 12: talk that we attended was specifically on Burroughs, and Burrows

2657
02:32:48,680 --> 02:32:53,560
Speaker 12: ghost haunted the remainder of the conference thereafter and introduced

2658
02:32:53,600 --> 02:32:58,120
Speaker 12: a few of the key tensions throughout the rest of

2659
02:32:58,160 --> 02:33:01,879
Speaker 12: the conference which we will discuss as specifically technology in AI.

2660
02:33:02,800 --> 02:33:06,920
Speaker 18: So our first talk by castro Opstrop, who I believe

2661
02:33:07,040 --> 02:33:09,560
Speaker 18: was Swedish, one of those.

2662
02:33:09,440 --> 02:33:11,800
Speaker 19: He was working at the University of Copenhagen.

2663
02:33:11,840 --> 02:33:15,119
Speaker 18: The University of Copenhagen certainly Scandinavian of some flavor of variety,

2664
02:33:15,600 --> 02:33:19,360
Speaker 18: focused on William S Burrows and Brian Geyson, I think

2665
02:33:19,360 --> 02:33:22,240
Speaker 18: that it's important, and I appreciated this claim on the

2666
02:33:22,280 --> 02:33:26,879
Speaker 18: outset that they argued that both Geyson and Burroughs are

2667
02:33:26,920 --> 02:33:31,560
Speaker 18: actually closer to the late Surrealists rather than to the

2668
02:33:31,600 --> 02:33:35,160
Speaker 18: beat poets generation which we typically associate them with, which,

2669
02:33:35,800 --> 02:33:39,880
Speaker 18: interestingly enough, I made both of these figures far more

2670
02:33:39,879 --> 02:33:43,480
Speaker 18: compelling to me my understanding of them. I mean, despite

2671
02:33:43,520 --> 02:33:46,320
Speaker 18: my familiarity with the cut up method, and you know,

2672
02:33:46,360 --> 02:33:48,680
Speaker 18: several of the things that Burrows had written, I always

2673
02:33:48,720 --> 02:33:52,520
Speaker 18: considered them far more beat and therefore less less of

2674
02:33:52,600 --> 02:33:56,480
Speaker 18: interest to me specifically. But this proximity to the Surrealists,

2675
02:33:56,520 --> 02:34:00,680
Speaker 18: especially the late latter Surrealists, I found particularly compelled, and

2676
02:34:00,720 --> 02:34:03,200
Speaker 18: I think that brings us to the real focus of

2677
02:34:03,240 --> 02:34:07,520
Speaker 18: this talk was Burrows's cut up method and another book

2678
02:34:07,520 --> 02:34:10,560
Speaker 18: that he published on the Third Mind, which gave way

2679
02:34:10,600 --> 02:34:15,359
Speaker 18: to the latter discussions on artificial intelligence and large language models.

2680
02:34:15,959 --> 02:34:21,040
Speaker 12: So Burrows definitely popularized the cut up method, which Geyson originated,

2681
02:34:21,120 --> 02:34:24,440
Speaker 12: but Burroughs changed its different forms of manifestations to various

2682
02:34:24,680 --> 02:34:27,000
Speaker 12: mediums of art like the tape recorder and his own

2683
02:34:27,080 --> 02:34:30,640
Speaker 12: writings and just words and language. And I guess the

2684
02:34:30,680 --> 02:34:33,039
Speaker 12: reason why I think talking about this current is important

2685
02:34:33,040 --> 02:34:36,840
Speaker 12: to start. Is also revolves around this idea of magic

2686
02:34:36,959 --> 02:34:38,960
Speaker 12: as this form of like resistance or this like a

2687
02:34:39,000 --> 02:34:43,600
Speaker 12: culture jamming practice, which Burrows framed his own work in

2688
02:34:43,640 --> 02:34:45,840
Speaker 12: his like a you know, work that could we could

2689
02:34:45,879 --> 02:34:49,600
Speaker 12: just describe as like esoteric or inspired byesoterism or achieving

2690
02:34:49,680 --> 02:34:55,439
Speaker 12: esotericals is specifically for this cultural infusion to to disrupt

2691
02:34:55,560 --> 02:34:59,680
Speaker 12: mainstream culture in some capacity, to go against the one

2692
02:34:59,760 --> 02:35:03,640
Speaker 12: God universe, sometimes in an anarchic way, sometimes in a

2693
02:35:03,640 --> 02:35:07,640
Speaker 12: libertarian way. There's a mix of a mix of like

2694
02:35:08,440 --> 02:35:11,160
Speaker 12: motivations that play here, same thing with like Robert Anton Wilson,

2695
02:35:11,200 --> 02:35:14,080
Speaker 12: which I'm sure you've heard Robert Evans talk about before.

2696
02:35:14,800 --> 02:35:18,520
Speaker 12: These were contemporaries. These guys were friends and operating under

2697
02:35:18,640 --> 02:35:24,800
Speaker 12: like similar goals of disrupting culture through these techniques which

2698
02:35:24,840 --> 02:35:29,400
Speaker 12: they thought literally like disrupted the linear flow of culture

2699
02:35:29,480 --> 02:35:32,480
Speaker 12: or the mechanisms of control such as like language and

2700
02:35:32,800 --> 02:35:37,320
Speaker 12: linear time, which later gets developed on by Land and Fissure.

2701
02:35:38,280 --> 02:35:41,200
Speaker 20: Yeah, I think looking at some of my notes, some

2702
02:35:41,280 --> 02:35:43,720
Speaker 20: of the things that stuck out to me, especially in

2703
02:35:43,800 --> 02:35:46,360
Speaker 20: view of the fact that the other classes going on

2704
02:35:46,400 --> 02:35:49,959
Speaker 20: at the time began with Alistair Crowley, but we're diving

2705
02:35:50,000 --> 02:35:54,760
Speaker 20: into a lot of more classical and historical magical traditions.

2706
02:35:55,200 --> 02:35:58,360
Speaker 20: Was that language can shape reality, which is something that

2707
02:35:59,000 --> 02:36:01,720
Speaker 20: would also be held by a lot of the classical

2708
02:36:01,920 --> 02:36:06,240
Speaker 20: magical ideas that sound and image have a cult power,

2709
02:36:06,320 --> 02:36:09,440
Speaker 20: which is very true in a lot of magical traditions

2710
02:36:09,480 --> 02:36:13,840
Speaker 20: dating back to the Pickatrix and more ancient texts, and

2711
02:36:14,280 --> 02:36:17,880
Speaker 20: that tech available at the time can be a magical instrument,

2712
02:36:17,920 --> 02:36:22,600
Speaker 20: which the tech available currently and for William Burrows is

2713
02:36:22,720 --> 02:36:27,280
Speaker 20: very different than classical tech, but is something that has

2714
02:36:27,320 --> 02:36:30,080
Speaker 20: been done for a very long time as well. What

2715
02:36:30,240 --> 02:36:34,000
Speaker 20: really changes is stepping out of the idea of a

2716
02:36:34,040 --> 02:36:37,720
Speaker 20: linear representation of it and into something that could be edited,

2717
02:36:37,800 --> 02:36:44,039
Speaker 20: cut and reprogrammed, specifically using technology that allowed that as

2718
02:36:44,040 --> 02:36:48,320
Speaker 20: opposed to something that you're trying to control solely through

2719
02:36:48,840 --> 02:36:52,840
Speaker 20: say more spiritual magical acts. It's something that you can

2720
02:36:52,879 --> 02:36:53,720
Speaker 20: do with a tape recording.

2721
02:36:53,840 --> 02:36:55,680
Speaker 12: And this is like you know, based on forms like

2722
02:36:55,720 --> 02:36:59,959
Speaker 12: social engineering and the manipulation of the reproduction of reality,

2723
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:03,760
Speaker 12: which Burrows believes language plays a key role in, even

2724
02:37:03,760 --> 02:37:05,800
Speaker 12: though I might disagree with him in a few ways

2725
02:37:05,840 --> 02:37:08,560
Speaker 12: on like the nature of like a language as a

2726
02:37:08,879 --> 02:37:11,760
Speaker 12: as a human concept versus this like alien concept which

2727
02:37:11,760 --> 02:37:15,800
Speaker 12: it's like infected to human delta. You should explain what

2728
02:37:15,879 --> 02:37:17,640
Speaker 12: the cut up method is.

2729
02:37:18,120 --> 02:37:23,679
Speaker 19: Yes, well, the name itself kind of is self explanatory,

2730
02:37:24,200 --> 02:37:28,680
Speaker 19: but the idea of being essentially too thick any form

2731
02:37:28,720 --> 02:37:32,680
Speaker 19: of texts or writing, cut up the words or pieces

2732
02:37:32,680 --> 02:37:35,440
Speaker 19: of sentences, jumble them up in a hat or a

2733
02:37:35,440 --> 02:37:39,400
Speaker 19: bucket or whatever, and then kind of like play a

2734
02:37:39,440 --> 02:37:45,240
Speaker 19: jigsaw puzzle with language, reshifting sentences into new ideas and

2735
02:37:45,360 --> 02:37:49,800
Speaker 19: new forms of poetry, especially which I'm just looking at

2736
02:37:49,840 --> 02:37:52,240
Speaker 19: my own cut ups right in front of me.

2737
02:37:52,440 --> 02:37:56,400
Speaker 12: To force like randomized combinations of the word that you

2738
02:37:56,480 --> 02:37:59,400
Speaker 12: would not choose to combine on your own volition, and

2739
02:37:59,440 --> 02:38:02,080
Speaker 12: seeing why that sort of thought that generates what're kind

2740
02:38:02,120 --> 02:38:05,560
Speaker 12: of meaning can be constructed through that combination exactly.

2741
02:38:06,120 --> 02:38:07,959
Speaker 20: We're on some of the first cut ups done with

2742
02:38:08,120 --> 02:38:11,600
Speaker 20: books and just making holes, cutting out words and seeing

2743
02:38:11,640 --> 02:38:14,120
Speaker 20: the other words that would appear underneath, and if new

2744
02:38:14,160 --> 02:38:19,520
Speaker 20: meaning would arise through the surprise combinations.

2745
02:38:19,320 --> 02:38:22,000
Speaker 12: Words from like the future or the past presenting themselves

2746
02:38:22,040 --> 02:38:24,480
Speaker 12: into a current present within the book.

2747
02:38:24,640 --> 02:38:24,879
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2748
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:27,200
Speaker 19: I think one of the Boroughs quotes is when you

2749
02:38:27,200 --> 02:38:29,720
Speaker 19: cut into the present, the future leaks out, which.

2750
02:38:29,560 --> 02:38:31,680
Speaker 18: Is related to the concept of time sorcery that was

2751
02:38:31,680 --> 02:38:34,640
Speaker 18: talked about towards the end of that discussion. I think

2752
02:38:34,680 --> 02:38:37,560
Speaker 18: another element to the cut up method that's important, especially

2753
02:38:37,600 --> 02:38:41,240
Speaker 18: as it was framed in this a culture context, is

2754
02:38:41,320 --> 02:38:44,160
Speaker 18: as the we quoted from the or as I wrote

2755
02:38:44,200 --> 02:38:47,120
Speaker 18: this quote down from the actual lecture itself. Reality is

2756
02:38:47,160 --> 02:38:52,200
Speaker 18: made of words, images, and vibrations, and sounds and images

2757
02:38:52,440 --> 02:38:57,120
Speaker 18: have occult power, and therefore these sounds and images and

2758
02:38:57,280 --> 02:39:02,800
Speaker 18: words can be marshaled or used, edited, cut through, rearranged

2759
02:39:03,320 --> 02:39:06,520
Speaker 18: for the purposes of reprogramming. It's fascinating because I think

2760
02:39:06,520 --> 02:39:11,200
Speaker 18: that this really is something that carries through to the

2761
02:39:11,760 --> 02:39:16,360
Speaker 18: whole conference, and not just the Burrow's method, but what

2762
02:39:16,440 --> 02:39:20,880
Speaker 18: this Burrow's method or the Barosian current of the conference.

2763
02:39:21,280 --> 02:39:23,959
Speaker 18: It seems that there was a problematic I mean, we

2764
02:39:24,000 --> 02:39:26,400
Speaker 18: started basically with Dari Da, and we ended with Dari Da.

2765
02:39:26,800 --> 02:39:30,119
Speaker 18: We with discussions of like critiques of the master narrative

2766
02:39:30,200 --> 02:39:32,880
Speaker 18: that we get from you know, Deluze and Leotard and

2767
02:39:32,959 --> 02:39:36,280
Speaker 18: Baudriard and these people. But the goal of this cut

2768
02:39:36,400 --> 02:39:40,640
Speaker 18: up method was to rewrite the master narrative. So again

2769
02:39:40,720 --> 02:39:44,200
Speaker 18: back to that concept of culture jamming. As Ger said,

2770
02:39:44,480 --> 02:39:47,920
Speaker 18: this concept of the one God universe, this cut up

2771
02:39:47,959 --> 02:39:54,640
Speaker 18: method is meant to interrupt the linearity of words of language,

2772
02:39:54,720 --> 02:40:00,560
Speaker 18: that is a process of control. So I issue with

2773
02:40:00,600 --> 02:40:03,960
Speaker 18: this concept of language as a virus because that implies

2774
02:40:04,000 --> 02:40:07,040
Speaker 18: that it's a foreign body, and I mean it's true

2775
02:40:07,120 --> 02:40:08,840
Speaker 18: post structuralists. I guess that I am there is no

2776
02:40:08,920 --> 02:40:11,240
Speaker 18: outside to language, and I think that that's actually something

2777
02:40:11,280 --> 02:40:15,000
Speaker 18: that shines through in this third mind concept.

2778
02:40:15,640 --> 02:40:19,160
Speaker 12: As two people work together on something, there's a composite

2779
02:40:19,280 --> 02:40:22,760
Speaker 12: mind that like emerges and affects the work is the

2780
02:40:23,440 --> 02:40:24,119
Speaker 12: concept there.

2781
02:40:24,480 --> 02:40:27,800
Speaker 18: So when two people collaborate, a third mind or intelligence

2782
02:40:27,840 --> 02:40:32,760
Speaker 18: communicates with you through the revelation of the new that

2783
02:40:33,000 --> 02:40:36,199
Speaker 18: was already present. And I think that that's really important

2784
02:40:36,360 --> 02:40:39,720
Speaker 18: to point out because it's not as though there's this

2785
02:40:40,480 --> 02:40:44,080
Speaker 18: outside thing. The implication is from this method is that

2786
02:40:43,959 --> 02:40:48,200
Speaker 18: the new reveals itself through this process that's already present

2787
02:40:48,240 --> 02:40:50,960
Speaker 18: in language. Because this is a question that I had

2788
02:40:51,000 --> 02:40:54,720
Speaker 18: throughout is that if language is this foreign entity that

2789
02:40:54,879 --> 02:40:58,840
Speaker 18: dominates us through control, and the method itself is language,

2790
02:40:59,440 --> 02:41:02,320
Speaker 18: then how are we not just re I mean, I

2791
02:41:02,320 --> 02:41:04,240
Speaker 18: guess it's a kind of inoculation. If we have a

2792
02:41:04,360 --> 02:41:06,520
Speaker 18: you know, a theory of language that is based in

2793
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:10,760
Speaker 18: you know, what what do we call this? What is

2794
02:41:10,800 --> 02:41:13,360
Speaker 18: it that we all just got during COVID kevin fever? No, no,

2795
02:41:13,480 --> 02:41:15,480
Speaker 18: the things that we inject into our body that created

2796
02:41:15,480 --> 02:41:20,400
Speaker 18: the indo vaccines? There we go, that's the ticket inoculations.

2797
02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:22,039
Speaker 12: Not all, not all of us got vaccines.

2798
02:41:23,080 --> 02:41:23,800
Speaker 2: Okay, care.

2799
02:41:25,520 --> 02:41:30,480
Speaker 18: You heard it here first vaccine did not know where

2800
02:41:30,560 --> 02:41:31,520
Speaker 18: was it going with this? Okay?

2801
02:41:31,640 --> 02:41:34,080
Speaker 12: Speaking of methods of speaking of methods of control.

2802
02:41:35,120 --> 02:41:35,800
Speaker 8: I mean a lot of it.

2803
02:41:35,959 --> 02:41:41,440
Speaker 18: The new just came out there. Wait just one moment, Sorry, Elane.

2804
02:41:42,080 --> 02:41:45,400
Speaker 18: I likened this to this process of dialectics. But that's

2805
02:41:45,440 --> 02:41:48,400
Speaker 18: because I couldn't shut up about Hagel the entire time

2806
02:41:48,440 --> 02:41:52,600
Speaker 18: we were there, because I don't think enough occultists are

2807
02:41:52,720 --> 02:41:55,560
Speaker 18: talking about Hegel. Why is no one talking about Hegel?

2808
02:41:55,640 --> 02:41:57,280
Speaker 18: Everyone should be talking about Hegel.

2809
02:41:58,640 --> 02:42:00,640
Speaker 12: I mean, as fun as it is to think about this,

2810
02:42:00,720 --> 02:42:04,360
Speaker 12: like third mind as like an egg grigor figure, which

2811
02:42:04,440 --> 02:42:06,720
Speaker 12: we've we've mentioned before, is like it's like a group

2812
02:42:06,760 --> 02:42:11,039
Speaker 12: thought form, like a being or a force that is

2813
02:42:11,240 --> 02:42:16,119
Speaker 12: generated through through multiple people believing in it. You make

2814
02:42:16,200 --> 02:42:18,760
Speaker 12: up an imaginary friend in a way, that's what of

2815
02:42:18,800 --> 02:42:24,119
Speaker 12: a severtre, but true in a grigoras as a is yeah,

2816
02:42:24,840 --> 02:42:26,959
Speaker 12: of a form of thought that they gained its own,

2817
02:42:27,520 --> 02:42:29,880
Speaker 12: like an autonomy and becomes kind of, you know, like

2818
02:42:30,160 --> 02:42:31,680
Speaker 12: a like a little tiny.

2819
02:42:31,400 --> 02:42:32,039
Speaker 18: God, I guess.

2820
02:42:32,560 --> 02:42:36,000
Speaker 12: Or they also combined the third mind idea to like

2821
02:42:36,120 --> 02:42:40,039
Speaker 12: network consciousness. The one last thing I will say on

2822
02:42:40,040 --> 02:42:42,640
Speaker 12: this before we get to like the AI aspect, I guess.

2823
02:42:42,680 --> 02:42:47,160
Speaker 12: On this culture jamming nonlinearity is the concept of the

2824
02:42:47,240 --> 02:42:53,000
Speaker 12: circuit jump, which was playing back words from from politicians

2825
02:42:53,040 --> 02:42:57,039
Speaker 12: in different contexts as a sort of like a Uno

2826
02:42:57,520 --> 02:43:00,640
Speaker 12: reverso psychic attack, which I don't know if that actually

2827
02:43:00,680 --> 02:43:04,440
Speaker 12: works considering the current's political situation, but this is certainly

2828
02:43:04,600 --> 02:43:08,880
Speaker 12: a tactic to which I have employed many such cases,

2829
02:43:10,080 --> 02:43:12,800
Speaker 12: and we see a lot of people attempt attempt to

2830
02:43:13,440 --> 02:43:15,840
Speaker 12: do this, and I think there are certain figures who

2831
02:43:15,840 --> 02:43:19,760
Speaker 12: have their own very strong magical force field protecting them,

2832
02:43:20,120 --> 02:43:23,640
Speaker 12: which has been pretty evident through the past ten years,

2833
02:43:23,680 --> 02:43:27,120
Speaker 12: including the President of the United States. But as a

2834
02:43:27,120 --> 02:43:30,560
Speaker 12: as a circuit jump is playing something from the wrong

2835
02:43:31,200 --> 02:43:34,800
Speaker 12: the wrong time in a different context as a as

2836
02:43:34,840 --> 02:43:38,120
Speaker 12: a form of attack. The most famous conversion of this,

2837
02:43:38,160 --> 02:43:40,240
Speaker 12: which isn't necessarily for political ends, so this was for

2838
02:43:40,280 --> 02:43:45,160
Speaker 12: personal ends. It's the Burroughs cafe incident, which I've been

2839
02:43:45,200 --> 02:43:48,400
Speaker 12: a fan of for years, in which he was slighted

2840
02:43:48,400 --> 02:43:50,240
Speaker 12: by a cafe so then he started recording.

2841
02:43:50,320 --> 02:43:52,879
Speaker 20: All that happened was they changed their menu and he

2842
02:43:52,879 --> 02:43:55,800
Speaker 20: couldn't order the one food that he ordered every day.

2843
02:43:55,879 --> 02:43:57,520
Speaker 12: There's been some menus that have changed that I would

2844
02:43:57,520 --> 02:44:02,000
Speaker 12: consider us using this tactic where he recorded sounds from

2845
02:44:02,040 --> 02:44:05,320
Speaker 12: from outside of like people talking or arguing, or walking

2846
02:44:05,320 --> 02:44:08,920
Speaker 12: by or plates dropping, and then played them back outside

2847
02:44:08,920 --> 02:44:11,920
Speaker 12: of the cafe for a series of months until the

2848
02:44:11,959 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 12: cafe closed. And this is like the funniest, the funniest

2849
02:44:16,720 --> 02:44:20,680
Speaker 12: form of this sort of magical obsession, because this really

2850
02:44:20,720 --> 02:44:22,800
Speaker 12: is just a crazy guy playing loud sounds in front

2851
02:44:22,840 --> 02:44:25,959
Speaker 12: of a cafe until they close. I mean it worked,

2852
02:44:26,320 --> 02:44:29,440
Speaker 12: of yeah, playing back sounds of you know, arguing, fighting,

2853
02:44:29,959 --> 02:44:35,040
Speaker 12: plates is smashing, which would probably create a negative aura

2854
02:44:35,480 --> 02:44:39,040
Speaker 12: around around this building. But that is that is the

2855
02:44:39,080 --> 02:44:42,080
Speaker 12: most most funny of Burrows the circu jump moment. Although

2856
02:44:42,120 --> 02:44:45,440
Speaker 12: I mean burrows life is full of these humorous and

2857
02:44:45,959 --> 02:44:47,879
Speaker 12: sometimes worrying anecdotes.

2858
02:44:48,640 --> 02:44:50,959
Speaker 20: There's one other thing that stuck out to me. Given

2859
02:44:52,280 --> 02:44:55,400
Speaker 20: what a lot of the other talks in that space

2860
02:44:55,480 --> 02:44:58,920
Speaker 20: ended up dealing with, along with AI and stuff, was

2861
02:44:58,959 --> 02:45:03,160
Speaker 20: really the speaker talking a lot about the fact that

2862
02:45:03,560 --> 02:45:08,480
Speaker 20: for Burros and Geyson, the reproduction of reality is how

2863
02:45:08,600 --> 02:45:11,560
Speaker 20: control occurs. And so the goal was to manipulate the

2864
02:45:11,600 --> 02:45:14,840
Speaker 20: reproduction of reality, because if you can manipulate the reproduction

2865
02:45:14,879 --> 02:45:19,840
Speaker 20: of reality, you are also manipulating reality itself, which I

2866
02:45:19,879 --> 02:45:22,520
Speaker 20: don't think anyone went into nearly as much, but is

2867
02:45:22,560 --> 02:45:25,800
Speaker 20: something that we're seeing with say even the Republican Party

2868
02:45:25,879 --> 02:45:29,760
Speaker 20: releasing deep fake videos of Democratic politicians.

2869
02:45:30,120 --> 02:45:34,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, and this is something our materialist friend does talk about,

2870
02:45:34,600 --> 02:45:37,760
Speaker 12: is how there's a quote from some neo cons about

2871
02:45:37,760 --> 02:45:41,200
Speaker 12: how like Democrats just have to kind of like you know,

2872
02:45:41,400 --> 02:45:46,200
Speaker 12: react to reality versus the Republicans who generate it, and

2873
02:45:46,240 --> 02:45:48,240
Speaker 12: they like decide what reality is. And you can see

2874
02:45:48,240 --> 02:45:50,760
Speaker 12: this with all of the sort of moral panics which

2875
02:45:50,760 --> 02:45:53,320
Speaker 12: have spread across the United States and around the world

2876
02:45:53,640 --> 02:45:57,160
Speaker 12: the past few years, whether that's gender ideology, with it's immigration,

2877
02:45:57,200 --> 02:45:59,600
Speaker 12: whether that's this non existent crime wave, or it is

2878
02:45:59,600 --> 02:46:02,960
Speaker 12: a genuine like creation of reality. And then this this

2879
02:46:02,959 --> 02:46:05,720
Speaker 12: this goes into you know, the Burrows ideas later get

2880
02:46:05,720 --> 02:46:10,119
Speaker 12: developed by a group of academics and occultists that formed

2881
02:46:10,160 --> 02:46:14,800
Speaker 12: the c c r U. This included say Plant nick Land,

2882
02:46:14,840 --> 02:46:18,160
Speaker 12: who then turned to the dark side, and uh the

2883
02:46:18,560 --> 02:46:22,200
Speaker 12: since past Mark Fisher, who put a name to some

2884
02:46:22,240 --> 02:46:25,760
Speaker 12: of this sort of phenomenon called the hyperstition, which is

2885
02:46:26,280 --> 02:46:28,360
Speaker 12: Robert has talked about before in the show. But it

2886
02:46:28,440 --> 02:46:31,120
Speaker 12: is it is a self fulfilling prophecy. It is a

2887
02:46:31,160 --> 02:46:34,920
Speaker 12: fiction that becomes true through the creation of the fiction

2888
02:46:35,040 --> 02:46:38,680
Speaker 12: and the dissemination of this fiction. And this is part

2889
02:46:38,760 --> 02:46:42,280
Speaker 12: of how reality can get formed, is through these falsehoods

2890
02:46:42,280 --> 02:46:47,480
Speaker 12: that that through through repetition and dissemination, become self manifest.

2891
02:46:48,480 --> 02:46:50,440
Speaker 19: The thing about that, though, is that the high perstitional

2892
02:46:50,440 --> 02:46:54,840
Speaker 19: model itself requires to the acceptance of the idea that

2893
02:46:55,240 --> 02:46:56,120
Speaker 19: everything is a fiction.

2894
02:46:56,480 --> 02:47:00,200
Speaker 12: Yes, like well yeah, I mean a lot of those

2895
02:47:00,240 --> 02:47:03,120
Speaker 12: things go through a process like this, yes, yes, yes,

2896
02:47:03,600 --> 02:47:08,360
Speaker 12: but doing doing such a thing like intentionally and like offensively, right,

2897
02:47:08,400 --> 02:47:10,400
Speaker 12: which is which is the idea that we're discussing here

2898
02:47:10,440 --> 02:47:13,640
Speaker 12: in like a political context. Is this this this offensive

2899
02:47:13,720 --> 02:47:17,920
Speaker 12: reality formation where you literally decide what is real and

2900
02:47:18,040 --> 02:47:21,640
Speaker 12: like what isn't. And you know, if you have hundreds

2901
02:47:21,640 --> 02:47:24,600
Speaker 12: of millions dollars in like a news company at your disposal,

2902
02:47:24,800 --> 02:47:26,080
Speaker 12: this can become easier.

2903
02:47:26,640 --> 02:47:29,000
Speaker 20: Are you saying that media companies are currently cutting up

2904
02:47:29,040 --> 02:47:31,200
Speaker 20: reality to shape it in the image of the people

2905
02:47:31,200 --> 02:47:32,800
Speaker 20: who fund them.

2906
02:47:33,440 --> 02:47:37,720
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, I mean they are. They are much. It's

2907
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:40,520
Speaker 12: it's funny because like occultists, I think, are the people

2908
02:47:40,560 --> 02:47:42,039
Speaker 12: who are often.

2909
02:47:41,800 --> 02:47:43,880
Speaker 20: The clips are you going to use from the conference?

2910
02:47:43,920 --> 02:47:48,000
Speaker 12: And I will later in my written work, But I

2911
02:47:48,040 --> 02:47:52,160
Speaker 12: think on that note, I think occultists are a class

2912
02:47:52,200 --> 02:47:55,640
Speaker 12: of people who are maybe the worst at doing magic,

2913
02:47:58,160 --> 02:48:00,360
Speaker 12: because the people that are really good at this sort

2914
02:48:00,360 --> 02:48:04,000
Speaker 12: of thing are perhaps way better at the occult element

2915
02:48:04,080 --> 02:48:06,920
Speaker 12: of hiding their their you know, awareness of what they

2916
02:48:06,959 --> 02:48:09,000
Speaker 12: are doing, because they at a lot of them know

2917
02:48:09,080 --> 02:48:11,400
Speaker 12: what they're doing. That you just actually keep it a

2918
02:48:11,560 --> 02:48:14,959
Speaker 12: more cultic, whereas the magicians will not shut the fuck

2919
02:48:15,080 --> 02:48:17,840
Speaker 12: up because there's always a there's always a new book

2920
02:48:17,840 --> 02:48:18,240
Speaker 12: to sell.

2921
02:48:18,840 --> 02:48:21,480
Speaker 18: That was an excellent segue to an ad break, Laye.

2922
02:48:21,560 --> 02:48:23,200
Speaker 18: Thank you for that, and now a word from our

2923
02:48:23,240 --> 02:48:36,600
Speaker 18: sponsors on this note, though, Gary, I agree with you

2924
02:48:36,640 --> 02:48:40,360
Speaker 18: completely As a former academic and just a healthy level

2925
02:48:40,360 --> 02:48:45,000
Speaker 18: of skepticism going into any magical conference. I sat down,

2926
02:48:45,080 --> 02:48:48,160
Speaker 18: I listened and I've been to enough conferences listening to

2927
02:48:48,720 --> 02:48:54,320
Speaker 18: magicians attempt to map on rather poorly magic onto a

2928
02:48:54,760 --> 02:48:57,959
Speaker 18: cultural figure, and I think Burrows is really unique here.

2929
02:48:58,000 --> 02:49:00,560
Speaker 18: But my academic pretense was to sit here and to

2930
02:49:00,640 --> 02:49:03,480
Speaker 18: listen and think about, you know, language as a pharmicon,

2931
02:49:03,680 --> 02:49:07,160
Speaker 18: think about darry Da Delouze, Baudrard Leotard when they're discussing

2932
02:49:07,240 --> 02:49:11,000
Speaker 18: the master narrative or rewriting the master narrative. But what's

2933
02:49:11,120 --> 02:49:14,240
Speaker 18: unique about Burrows and why I gave up that you know,

2934
02:49:14,400 --> 02:49:17,240
Speaker 18: academic mapping of philosophy and asking myself, why are we

2935
02:49:17,280 --> 02:49:20,000
Speaker 18: having this conversation. We could just go read these texts

2936
02:49:20,200 --> 02:49:22,840
Speaker 18: they talk about similar things. But the point is is

2937
02:49:22,879 --> 02:49:26,000
Speaker 18: that those texts talk about similar things. And what's unique

2938
02:49:26,000 --> 02:49:28,720
Speaker 18: about Burrows is that he's actually doing the doer. He's

2939
02:49:28,760 --> 02:49:31,680
Speaker 18: a doer. This is fundamentally the difference between the vida

2940
02:49:31,720 --> 02:49:34,720
Speaker 18: activa and the vita contempt the taiva. Like I'm thinking

2941
02:49:34,760 --> 02:49:37,160
Speaker 18: in terms of philosophers. And it took me half of

2942
02:49:37,200 --> 02:49:39,240
Speaker 18: this talk to be like, no, he's actually doing shit.

2943
02:49:39,440 --> 02:49:40,760
Speaker 18: As soon as we get out to like, you know,

2944
02:49:40,840 --> 02:49:43,280
Speaker 18: him actually standing out in front of the cafe and

2945
02:49:43,480 --> 02:49:46,080
Speaker 18: doing this. He's not just developing a method, but by

2946
02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:48,760
Speaker 18: virtue of the fact that he's inviting other artists, like

2947
02:49:48,840 --> 02:49:52,400
Speaker 18: the slides upon slides that we saw of him, you know,

2948
02:49:52,560 --> 02:49:55,840
Speaker 18: working with new machines that he was creating and trying

2949
02:49:55,920 --> 02:49:59,600
Speaker 18: these things. He was actively involved in this practice, which

2950
02:49:59,640 --> 02:50:06,039
Speaker 18: again makes them far more magical than most occultists. Don't

2951
02:50:06,040 --> 02:50:07,480
Speaker 18: come for me absolutely.

2952
02:50:08,520 --> 02:50:14,320
Speaker 12: AI specifically be discussing debates and uses of generative AI

2953
02:50:14,520 --> 02:50:17,200
Speaker 12: in this conference because the last A Culture conference was

2954
02:50:17,240 --> 02:50:20,560
Speaker 12: in twenty twenty three, as these large language models and

2955
02:50:20,680 --> 02:50:26,160
Speaker 12: image generation platforms were just just starting to gain popularity

2956
02:50:26,200 --> 02:50:28,560
Speaker 12: and now they have a stranglehold over at the stock

2957
02:50:28,640 --> 02:50:33,360
Speaker 12: market and many people's imagination. The first, I guess real

2958
02:50:33,400 --> 02:50:37,440
Speaker 12: debate around AI happened as the three of you stayed

2959
02:50:37,480 --> 02:50:41,480
Speaker 12: to listen to a panel after Willie Mesburrough's panel, as

2960
02:50:41,520 --> 02:50:45,520
Speaker 12: well as a Austin OsmAnd Spare panel, a proto cast

2961
02:50:45,560 --> 02:50:47,920
Speaker 12: magician from the twentieth century. It was a contemporary of

2962
02:50:47,920 --> 02:50:52,920
Speaker 12: Alistair Crowley. I left to go listen to a mathematical

2963
02:50:53,600 --> 02:50:59,280
Speaker 12: thelemic ontology talk, which was probably less interesting than the panel.

2964
02:51:00,120 --> 02:51:02,720
Speaker 12: Hear you guys talk about the debates around AI and

2965
02:51:02,760 --> 02:51:05,519
Speaker 12: how they emerged in this panel, and then also juxtasing

2966
02:51:05,520 --> 02:51:08,160
Speaker 12: that to the different forms of like AI in discussions

2967
02:51:08,240 --> 02:51:10,920
Speaker 12: or an AI that dominated a large part of the

2968
02:51:10,959 --> 02:51:11,800
Speaker 12: rest of the conference.

2969
02:51:12,040 --> 02:51:15,360
Speaker 20: Well, actually AI came up because the initial discussion question

2970
02:51:15,560 --> 02:51:17,200
Speaker 20: for the panel was what does it mean to talk

2971
02:51:17,240 --> 02:51:21,120
Speaker 20: about art as magic in the digital era? So everyone

2972
02:51:21,200 --> 02:51:25,400
Speaker 20: was very specifically being asked to discuss the differences between

2973
02:51:26,680 --> 02:51:29,400
Speaker 20: the creation process is magic when you can use AI,

2974
02:51:29,440 --> 02:51:33,200
Speaker 20: when you can use large language models to just generate things,

2975
02:51:33,280 --> 02:51:37,960
Speaker 20: and if the generative method using AI was at all

2976
02:51:38,000 --> 02:51:42,080
Speaker 20: related to say, the cut up method or other things.

2977
02:51:42,200 --> 02:51:45,560
Speaker 20: So that was the initial conversation that began that whole panel.

2978
02:51:46,000 --> 02:51:48,480
Speaker 18: Well, and that was certainly a topic that was begged

2979
02:51:48,480 --> 02:51:51,520
Speaker 18: by the other two talks that we didn't really discuss.

2980
02:51:51,920 --> 02:51:58,440
Speaker 18: The Austin Osman spare was about automatic drawing. So this

2981
02:51:58,560 --> 02:52:03,600
Speaker 18: conception and of you know, this drawing that is coming

2982
02:52:03,680 --> 02:52:07,160
Speaker 18: from the outside, coming from the subconscious, coming from within,

2983
02:52:07,800 --> 02:52:11,640
Speaker 18: with all within one line. But more than that, it

2984
02:52:11,680 --> 02:52:15,280
Speaker 18: was a very traditional kind of European nineteen seventies lecture.

2985
02:52:15,120 --> 02:52:17,520
Speaker 18: You know, you had a lovely Italian man who stood

2986
02:52:17,560 --> 02:52:19,199
Speaker 18: in the front that was ready to smoke a cigarette

2987
02:52:19,400 --> 02:52:23,760
Speaker 18: while trying to get through, you know, a very well formulated,

2988
02:52:24,200 --> 02:52:27,840
Speaker 18: well argued essay, while a series of images presented to

2989
02:52:27,920 --> 02:52:31,680
Speaker 18: us behind him that covered an overview of artists that

2990
02:52:31,720 --> 02:52:34,640
Speaker 18: are doing very similar things. He argued, exists in a

2991
02:52:34,680 --> 02:52:40,320
Speaker 18: similar kind of vein and the occurrences of not just

2992
02:52:40,400 --> 02:52:45,160
Speaker 18: magical tropes, but cultural influences that happen independently, so artists

2993
02:52:45,160 --> 02:52:48,640
Speaker 18: all over the world. The third talk by I believe

2994
02:52:49,360 --> 02:52:54,120
Speaker 18: Kate Lady, Yeah, the ritual transformation and hybridity in Leonora

2995
02:52:54,160 --> 02:52:57,560
Speaker 18: Carrington's Judith, which was a stage production which happened in

2996
02:52:57,600 --> 02:53:00,800
Speaker 18: Mexico City, I believe so he had a few pictures

2997
02:53:00,800 --> 02:53:05,280
Speaker 18: of this, but Leonora Carrington's art very specifically has to

2998
02:53:05,320 --> 02:53:07,920
Speaker 18: do with this like hybrid of like animals and mythical

2999
02:53:07,959 --> 02:53:11,920
Speaker 18: figures and creatures, and the stage production was incredibly intense.

3000
02:53:12,520 --> 02:53:15,560
Speaker 18: I really appreciated this talk a lot. But then focus

3001
02:53:15,640 --> 02:53:19,240
Speaker 18: on talking about you know, generative artificial intelligence and these

3002
02:53:19,320 --> 02:53:22,000
Speaker 18: large language models and the role of art or what

3003
02:53:22,000 --> 02:53:25,280
Speaker 18: it means to do art in this era was related

3004
02:53:25,360 --> 02:53:29,039
Speaker 18: to this idea of the third mind, of automatic drawing,

3005
02:53:29,240 --> 02:53:32,480
Speaker 18: of this concept of hybridity, of this like transformative or

3006
02:53:32,520 --> 02:53:37,280
Speaker 18: this discovering of the new through a synthetic putting together

3007
02:53:37,400 --> 02:53:44,440
Speaker 18: of different elements or images, words, sounds, costumery, these kinds

3008
02:53:44,440 --> 02:53:46,560
Speaker 18: of things, so that it was a natural question to lead,

3009
02:53:46,600 --> 02:53:49,800
Speaker 18: but the audience members took it in a very strange

3010
02:53:49,840 --> 02:53:52,760
Speaker 18: direction that I would like you all to talk about.

3011
02:53:53,480 --> 02:53:57,720
Speaker 20: I mean, the initial question was really that people started

3012
02:53:57,760 --> 02:54:03,640
Speaker 20: asking after the panel was proposed, was so, what did

3013
02:54:03,640 --> 02:54:06,760
Speaker 20: the panelists think about ai art? Do the panelists think

3014
02:54:06,800 --> 02:54:09,600
Speaker 20: aiart is magic? Do the panelists think that ai art

3015
02:54:09,879 --> 02:54:13,480
Speaker 20: is channeling? Do the panelists think that, you know, putting

3016
02:54:13,520 --> 02:54:16,080
Speaker 20: a prompt and a language model is the same as

3017
02:54:16,480 --> 02:54:20,360
Speaker 20: doing some sort of trans state automatic writing. There was

3018
02:54:20,400 --> 02:54:23,640
Speaker 20: a lot of variations on functionally that all of the

3019
02:54:23,680 --> 02:54:27,120
Speaker 20: panelist's reaction was no, it's not, and a lot of

3020
02:54:27,120 --> 02:54:30,760
Speaker 20: them did not immediately really want to even dive into

3021
02:54:30,800 --> 02:54:33,600
Speaker 20: that topic. And we're very annoyed at the question.

3022
02:54:33,760 --> 02:54:37,400
Speaker 18: That's actually not true because I got triggered almost immediately

3023
02:54:37,480 --> 02:54:40,760
Speaker 18: because it was our first speaker that responded not to

3024
02:54:40,800 --> 02:54:43,240
Speaker 18: that first question, but to the second question. And the

3025
02:54:43,280 --> 02:54:46,080
Speaker 18: second question had to do with the role of technology

3026
02:54:46,120 --> 02:54:50,640
Speaker 18: and whether we see that there's a possibility for these tools,

3027
02:54:50,920 --> 02:54:54,800
Speaker 18: you know, as a technology, a techne in magical practice,

3028
02:54:55,160 --> 02:54:58,840
Speaker 18: and our first speaker's reaction was to sit back and

3029
02:54:59,440 --> 02:55:03,200
Speaker 18: give us a tentative yes to the tech, to the

3030
02:55:03,320 --> 02:55:04,880
Speaker 18: tech that's core to AI.

3031
02:55:05,040 --> 02:55:07,960
Speaker 20: They were like, their initial rerection was still also no.

3032
02:55:08,680 --> 02:55:12,360
Speaker 18: But yes they they indeed got there, but it was

3033
02:55:12,440 --> 02:55:15,560
Speaker 18: unclear at first, and I was a little raw about it,

3034
02:55:15,600 --> 02:55:18,720
Speaker 18: given that seemed completely contrary to the talk that you

3035
02:55:18,720 --> 02:55:21,760
Speaker 18: know that he had mentioned before. There was a question

3036
02:55:22,000 --> 02:55:24,320
Speaker 18: about NFTs. Do you remember this question?

3037
02:55:25,080 --> 02:55:29,160
Speaker 20: Oh, I tried to put it immediately out of my head.

3038
02:55:29,280 --> 02:55:30,359
Speaker 1: Yes, that was the fact.

3039
02:55:30,200 --> 02:55:35,000
Speaker 20: That it started with, like, well, NFTs failed because people

3040
02:55:35,120 --> 02:55:39,800
Speaker 20: like weren't ready to embrace the blockchain as a generative

3041
02:55:40,280 --> 02:55:43,200
Speaker 20: idea for making art, as opposed to the fact that

3042
02:55:43,840 --> 02:55:46,200
Speaker 20: why would I own an NFT if I can screenshot

3043
02:55:46,200 --> 02:55:46,680
Speaker 20: the picture?

3044
02:55:46,840 --> 02:55:50,599
Speaker 18: Yeah, Well, it was this idea that like NFTs themselves,

3045
02:55:50,600 --> 02:55:53,480
Speaker 18: were part of this breaking up of the control process,

3046
02:55:54,440 --> 02:55:59,520
Speaker 18: the linearity of money and financial systems, that somehow it

3047
02:55:59,560 --> 02:56:02,080
Speaker 18: was related to the cut up method. It was one

3048
02:56:02,120 --> 02:56:04,760
Speaker 18: of those questions that was a narrative before it finally

3049
02:56:04,800 --> 02:56:07,560
Speaker 18: got to your question that really just invited the readers

3050
02:56:07,560 --> 02:56:10,640
Speaker 18: to respond. There were others that talked about this too,

3051
02:56:10,640 --> 02:56:13,920
Speaker 18: and related their own personal experience to the generative AI

3052
02:56:14,080 --> 02:56:17,280
Speaker 18: process that you know, they approach AI not with the

3053
02:56:17,320 --> 02:56:20,200
Speaker 18: expectation that will provide sense, but it'll almost have this

3054
02:56:20,600 --> 02:56:24,160
Speaker 18: oracular or again this they related it to the third mind,

3055
02:56:26,480 --> 02:56:30,600
Speaker 18: this idea that again you and the AI come together

3056
02:56:30,640 --> 02:56:34,160
Speaker 18: and somehow reveal the new which I at this point

3057
02:56:34,200 --> 02:56:35,280
Speaker 18: was absolutely seething.

3058
02:56:35,720 --> 02:56:35,920
Speaker 11: Yeah.

3059
02:56:35,920 --> 02:56:37,840
Speaker 20: I think the closest actually that we had to some

3060
02:56:37,959 --> 02:56:42,760
Speaker 20: really like someone even trying to approach it was asking about,

3061
02:56:43,320 --> 02:56:47,440
Speaker 20: if you're making this art, if you're generating these new things,

3062
02:56:47,879 --> 02:56:51,680
Speaker 20: does it matter that corporations are controlling the algorithm by

3063
02:56:51,680 --> 02:56:55,440
Speaker 20: which you're doing so, which started to touch on some

3064
02:56:55,600 --> 02:56:58,600
Speaker 20: of the problems, but still was definitely relying on the

3065
02:56:58,640 --> 02:57:02,560
Speaker 20: base assumption that using a large language model to produce

3066
02:57:02,680 --> 02:57:06,080
Speaker 20: stories or art, that you're interacting with something else that's

3067
02:57:06,120 --> 02:57:08,560
Speaker 20: actually capable of creating at all.

3068
02:57:08,840 --> 02:57:11,520
Speaker 18: And to her credit, my girl Kate Lady, who was

3069
02:57:11,560 --> 02:57:14,160
Speaker 18: talking about Leonora Carrington, the one that seemed to be

3070
02:57:14,440 --> 02:57:17,600
Speaker 18: kind of tangentially separate from the other two but the

3071
02:57:17,680 --> 02:57:20,560
Speaker 18: hybridity really made it was the one that just gave

3072
02:57:20,600 --> 02:57:23,600
Speaker 18: us a great straight Marxist answer of like, no, this

3073
02:57:23,640 --> 02:57:26,640
Speaker 18: is bullshit. Let's actually look at the material implications as

3074
02:57:26,640 --> 02:57:29,920
Speaker 18: to where this is coming from and the environmental costs

3075
02:57:30,080 --> 02:57:34,560
Speaker 18: of running these programs of server farms, the destruction of

3076
02:57:34,640 --> 02:57:40,160
Speaker 18: space of you know, liveable areas throughout the United States.

3077
02:57:40,440 --> 02:57:42,560
Speaker 18: That these are questions that we need to ask and

3078
02:57:42,600 --> 02:57:45,640
Speaker 18: are not separate from these questions of magic. So I

3079
02:57:45,720 --> 02:57:48,280
Speaker 18: really shout out to her. I appreciated that response because

3080
02:57:48,280 --> 02:57:50,560
Speaker 18: it was instant, and it was it was heated.

3081
02:57:51,080 --> 02:57:54,200
Speaker 19: It is also, like I mean, from my perspective, it's

3082
02:57:54,200 --> 02:57:57,520
Speaker 19: also a labory she write, because these large language models

3083
02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:04,160
Speaker 19: and generative AI just scrape like so much data that

3084
02:58:04,160 --> 02:58:09,119
Speaker 19: that's like writing from real artists and created by real.

3085
02:58:09,000 --> 02:58:10,600
Speaker 18: Like painters and whatever.

3086
02:58:11,000 --> 02:58:17,280
Speaker 19: And it is the appropriation of human labor to shit

3087
02:58:17,360 --> 02:58:22,440
Speaker 19: out some advertising. Essentially, that is like my main well,

3088
02:58:22,480 --> 02:58:26,920
Speaker 19: aside from all the ecological and the political issues with it,

3089
02:58:26,959 --> 02:58:30,600
Speaker 19: it's like very much that labor angle to it that

3090
02:58:31,000 --> 02:58:31,640
Speaker 19: frustrates me.

3091
02:58:32,640 --> 02:58:35,640
Speaker 18: Well, in the context of the talk, it's really important

3092
02:58:36,080 --> 02:58:38,160
Speaker 18: to then ground And this is the comment that that

3093
02:58:38,240 --> 02:58:41,240
Speaker 18: I made that the panel broadly seemed to agree with,

3094
02:58:41,280 --> 02:58:43,880
Speaker 18: although I didn't really leave them much opportunity to disagree

3095
02:58:43,920 --> 02:58:47,480
Speaker 18: with me. I mean, you're right, Thank you.

3096
02:58:47,520 --> 02:58:47,840
Speaker 8: Go on.

3097
02:58:49,600 --> 02:58:52,920
Speaker 18: So this Burrow's concept of the third mind, this book

3098
02:58:52,959 --> 02:58:56,520
Speaker 18: that he wrote, right, when two minds collaborate, a third

3099
02:58:56,640 --> 02:59:03,320
Speaker 18: mind or intelligence communicates with you, again, not about creating

3100
02:59:03,440 --> 02:59:08,359
Speaker 18: the new, but about revealing itself in what was already present.

3101
02:59:08,560 --> 02:59:12,840
Speaker 12: Yes, but the idea is that you have to have two.

3102
02:59:12,720 --> 02:59:17,000
Speaker 18: Minds in order to get this dialectical third mind that

3103
02:59:17,120 --> 02:59:20,920
Speaker 18: was inherent in the conditions, the situation, the language of

3104
02:59:20,959 --> 02:59:27,520
Speaker 18: the two. When one interacts with any form of large

3105
02:59:27,600 --> 02:59:31,440
Speaker 18: language model or chat GBT, I in my mind and

3106
02:59:31,480 --> 02:59:33,959
Speaker 18: with what I carry sit in front of a computer

3107
02:59:34,520 --> 02:59:39,160
Speaker 18: and type my input. That's one mind. Can you tell

3108
02:59:39,160 --> 02:59:40,280
Speaker 18: me where the second is?

3109
02:59:42,200 --> 02:59:45,120
Speaker 20: Because even if you're cutting up a book, there's a

3110
02:59:45,200 --> 02:59:47,240
Speaker 20: mind in the book. There's a story, there's an actual

3111
02:59:47,320 --> 02:59:50,000
Speaker 20: thing there, there's a thing that you are interacting with

3112
02:59:50,280 --> 02:59:54,480
Speaker 20: that were thoughts that were produced by someone that you

3113
02:59:54,520 --> 02:59:59,320
Speaker 20: are cutting up. You are not just scraping the toilet

3114
02:59:59,360 --> 03:00:01,440
Speaker 20: bowl of humans production.

3115
03:00:02,360 --> 03:00:04,800
Speaker 18: But even if we're going to be generous and say

3116
03:00:04,840 --> 03:00:07,600
Speaker 18: that these large language models are the ones that are

3117
03:00:07,600 --> 03:00:10,320
Speaker 18: doing the cut up process and you are secondary or

3118
03:00:10,680 --> 03:00:13,080
Speaker 18: tertiary or even further down the line to it, I

3119
03:00:13,080 --> 03:00:17,840
Speaker 18: mean it doesn't involve a human intelligence at that point.

3120
03:00:18,200 --> 03:00:22,240
Speaker 18: So just in terms of the you know, the Barosian current,

3121
03:00:22,800 --> 03:00:27,560
Speaker 18: it's just not a third mind. It's the material conditions

3122
03:00:27,560 --> 03:00:30,680
Speaker 18: are such that it is not and cannot be a

3123
03:00:30,720 --> 03:00:31,440
Speaker 18: third mind.

3124
03:00:32,120 --> 03:00:34,400
Speaker 12: Where I would like to take this discussion is actually

3125
03:00:34,480 --> 03:00:36,879
Speaker 12: the very next talk that I attended as part of

3126
03:00:37,480 --> 03:00:40,480
Speaker 12: a three talk series called the Politics of Taro, and

3127
03:00:40,760 --> 03:00:44,080
Speaker 12: the specific one that I think continued on this line

3128
03:00:44,120 --> 03:00:47,160
Speaker 12: of thought and even stuff like automatic writing was from

3129
03:00:47,400 --> 03:00:52,920
Speaker 12: Icon to Index by Thomas Leak, the Generative Logic of Taro,

3130
03:00:53,720 --> 03:00:56,879
Speaker 12: in which he discussed I will have to check his

3131
03:00:57,280 --> 03:01:00,240
Speaker 12: name later, but discussed an author in the eighty who

3132
03:01:00,320 --> 03:01:02,840
Speaker 12: was trying to use Taro as a way to remove

3133
03:01:03,040 --> 03:01:06,840
Speaker 12: the human element of writing, try to create an automatic

3134
03:01:06,959 --> 03:01:11,520
Speaker 12: story using the tarot archetypes assembled in a randomized shuffling

3135
03:01:12,200 --> 03:01:15,400
Speaker 12: to generate a story based on the linkages between each

3136
03:01:15,440 --> 03:01:18,879
Speaker 12: of the cards and remove his own agency and directing

3137
03:01:19,120 --> 03:01:21,840
Speaker 12: where the story goes except for trying to bridge each

3138
03:01:21,920 --> 03:01:28,360
Speaker 12: card one to another. And the presenter was was discussing

3139
03:01:28,520 --> 03:01:32,199
Speaker 12: if this bears any similarity to like generative text models.

3140
03:01:32,800 --> 03:01:37,000
Speaker 12: The presenter said no. Presenter said, no, this actually is

3141
03:01:37,040 --> 03:01:41,840
Speaker 12: not like llms, which purely operate on a people pleasing

3142
03:01:42,400 --> 03:01:47,720
Speaker 12: probabilistic capacity to follow one word after another in accordance

3143
03:01:47,760 --> 03:01:50,880
Speaker 12: with whatever the prompt of the person who's operating the

3144
03:01:51,560 --> 03:01:55,440
Speaker 12: AI wants it to generate. Though the presenter stated that

3145
03:01:55,640 --> 03:01:57,800
Speaker 12: this author who was using Tarot probably would have loved

3146
03:01:57,920 --> 03:02:01,040
Speaker 12: using an LLM to try to pomplish this goal of

3147
03:02:01,040 --> 03:02:03,000
Speaker 12: his trying to access kind of like a form of

3148
03:02:03,040 --> 03:02:06,080
Speaker 12: automatic writing similar to Mike austn Osman's Bear, but without

3149
03:02:06,160 --> 03:02:09,080
Speaker 12: human input. The shuffling of the cards and forcing the

3150
03:02:09,120 --> 03:02:12,240
Speaker 12: human brain to make connections between these archetypes still contains

3151
03:02:12,240 --> 03:02:15,960
Speaker 12: a creative human process based on randomness in the shuffling

3152
03:02:16,000 --> 03:02:21,440
Speaker 12: of the deck versus the people pleasing probabilistic generative text

3153
03:02:21,840 --> 03:02:28,520
Speaker 12: that lms produce. This concludes the first episode of My

3154
03:02:28,959 --> 03:02:33,760
Speaker 12: Culture twenty twenty five coverage. In part to releasing Sunday Night.

3155
03:02:34,240 --> 03:02:40,120
Speaker 12: The panel will discuss digital technomancy, traditional magical practice, and

3156
03:02:40,200 --> 03:02:43,840
Speaker 12: why people are doing occult practice in twenty twenty five.

3157
03:02:45,000 --> 03:03:14,240
Speaker 12: See You on the Other Side.

3158
03:03:03,200 --> 03:03:08,040
Speaker 2: No, Yep, yep, it's it could happen here.

3159
03:03:08,720 --> 03:03:15,240
Speaker 12: Electile Disorder Executive Disorder, which is our weekly newscast which

3160
03:03:15,280 --> 03:03:18,279
Speaker 12: we've been doing all year, so we should we should

3161
03:03:18,320 --> 03:03:19,360
Speaker 12: know what it's called by now.

3162
03:03:19,600 --> 03:03:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I'm so good at doing it naming it.

3163
03:03:23,520 --> 03:03:23,760
Speaker 1: Yep.

3164
03:03:24,360 --> 03:03:27,120
Speaker 12: This show covers what's happening in the White House, the

3165
03:03:27,240 --> 03:03:30,160
Speaker 12: crumbling world, and what it means for you and me

3166
03:03:30,200 --> 03:03:33,080
Speaker 12: and everyone else. I'm Garrison Davis. This episode, I'm joined

3167
03:03:33,120 --> 03:03:35,480
Speaker 12: by Robert Evans, James Stout, and Maya Wong, and we

3168
03:03:35,560 --> 03:03:39,240
Speaker 12: are covering the week of October twenty second to October thirtieth.

3169
03:03:39,879 --> 03:03:40,160
Speaker 3: Yep.

3170
03:03:41,160 --> 03:03:43,880
Speaker 9: So I think we should start off the bat by

3171
03:03:44,160 --> 03:03:45,760
Speaker 9: but the same thing we started off last week with,

3172
03:03:45,840 --> 03:03:49,120
Speaker 9: which is that as you're the Halloween. Yeah, well that

3173
03:03:49,440 --> 03:03:53,160
Speaker 9: so on the upside, Halloween woo spooky. On the downside,

3174
03:03:53,200 --> 03:03:57,560
Speaker 9: like forty million people lose, lose, there's no benefits the

3175
03:03:57,680 --> 03:03:59,920
Speaker 9: next day on Saturday.

3176
03:04:00,080 --> 03:04:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what's spookier than that. Look, one thing you

3177
03:04:03,320 --> 03:04:06,920
Speaker 2: can't say about the government is that they're not failing

3178
03:04:06,959 --> 03:04:08,600
Speaker 2: to celebrate the holiday.

3179
03:04:09,600 --> 03:04:12,080
Speaker 1: I am scared of the consequences.

3180
03:04:12,480 --> 03:04:16,959
Speaker 12: Yeah, stock up on the trigger, treater candy. I guess,

3181
03:04:17,240 --> 03:04:18,720
Speaker 12: steal as much candy as you can.

3182
03:04:19,600 --> 03:04:21,080
Speaker 2: You're going to need it to stay alive.

3183
03:04:21,240 --> 03:04:23,120
Speaker 1: See a group of children you run past him.

3184
03:04:23,600 --> 03:04:25,520
Speaker 2: Tick them. Oh they're kids. They can't stop you.

3185
03:04:26,120 --> 03:04:28,200
Speaker 1: Ye, hold it above your head. They can't reach it.

3186
03:04:28,879 --> 03:04:32,240
Speaker 12: No, it is. It is extremely grim, and there seems

3187
03:04:32,240 --> 03:04:35,280
Speaker 12: to be no indication from the Republicans of the Trump

3188
03:04:35,280 --> 03:04:37,840
Speaker 12: administration that they are going to work with the Democrats

3189
03:04:37,840 --> 03:04:43,480
Speaker 12: to resolve this without sacrificing healthcare for millions of Americans.

3190
03:04:43,800 --> 03:04:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, Gavin Newsom, a friend of the show, has

3191
03:04:47,400 --> 03:04:51,400
Speaker 1: deployed the California National Guard to assist food banks in

3192
03:04:51,440 --> 03:04:51,840
Speaker 1: the state.

3193
03:04:52,440 --> 03:04:53,120
Speaker 9: Oh my god.

3194
03:04:53,680 --> 03:04:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, Look, the thing is, when you participate in

3195
03:04:57,600 --> 03:05:00,800
Speaker 1: the largest crackdown and protected First Amendments speech in recent history,

3196
03:05:00,840 --> 03:05:02,920
Speaker 1: you don't get to show up and hand out snacks

3197
03:05:02,920 --> 03:05:07,040
Speaker 1: and feel good. And many food banks, including some in

3198
03:05:07,080 --> 03:05:10,640
Speaker 1: the Bay Area, have refused the help of National Guard members,

3199
03:05:10,920 --> 03:05:14,120
Speaker 1: right because they have this very obvious concern that some

3200
03:05:14,160 --> 03:05:17,080
Speaker 1: people might be reluctant to go to places where the

3201
03:05:17,120 --> 03:05:20,600
Speaker 1: soldiers who are standing right next to all the different

3202
03:05:20,640 --> 03:05:25,680
Speaker 1: immigration agents in la are now working. And so this

3203
03:05:25,720 --> 03:05:28,320
Speaker 1: will have the opposite of a positive effect in those instances, right,

3204
03:05:28,320 --> 03:05:29,720
Speaker 1: people who are afraid to go to food banks and

3205
03:05:29,800 --> 03:05:33,520
Speaker 1: going to remain hungry. The consequences of this will be negative.

3206
03:05:33,920 --> 03:05:36,920
Speaker 1: The issue I don't think is a lack of person power.

3207
03:05:37,240 --> 03:05:39,959
Speaker 1: The issue is a lack of funding. The state has

3208
03:05:40,120 --> 03:05:45,640
Speaker 1: mobilized eighty million dollars in funds, but millions of Californians

3209
03:05:46,000 --> 03:05:49,879
Speaker 1: will be going hungry. And because of the failure of

3210
03:05:49,959 --> 03:05:53,119
Speaker 1: state authorities to stop federal authorities deploying the National Guard

3211
03:05:53,200 --> 03:05:56,200
Speaker 1: to LA and to other areas where immigration enforcement was happening,

3212
03:05:57,000 --> 03:05:59,600
Speaker 1: this stunt that Newsmen is going for could have very

3213
03:05:59,640 --> 03:06:03,000
Speaker 1: negative consequences for for food banks and for Californians who

3214
03:06:03,000 --> 03:06:05,960
Speaker 1: are hungry. Something sick and cool you can do if

3215
03:06:06,000 --> 03:06:08,200
Speaker 1: you have the means and the time is to pick

3216
03:06:08,280 --> 03:06:10,080
Speaker 1: up food from food banks for people who need it.

3217
03:06:10,120 --> 03:06:12,279
Speaker 1: A lot of people might be concerned.

3218
03:06:12,320 --> 03:06:14,720
Speaker 12: One of the biggest problems is how much food banks

3219
03:06:14,760 --> 03:06:17,959
Speaker 12: get food also through these programs, yeah.

3220
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:20,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean support. Yeah, food banks themselves are

3221
03:06:20,360 --> 03:06:22,880
Speaker 1: going to be struggling right now. So like I actually

3222
03:06:23,360 --> 03:06:26,880
Speaker 1: I did a thread on lib on blue sky. Where

3223
03:06:26,720 --> 03:06:29,440
Speaker 1: were you going to say? Lived Twitter and then corrected

3224
03:06:29,480 --> 03:06:34,200
Speaker 1: to blue Sky. I was going to say lib Sky. Yeah, yeah,

3225
03:06:34,640 --> 03:06:38,119
Speaker 1: I fact checked myself. It's blue wave Sky.

3226
03:06:38,320 --> 03:06:38,800
Speaker 2: There you go.

3227
03:06:39,000 --> 03:06:41,400
Speaker 12: You cannot get that past me. I could pick up

3228
03:06:41,400 --> 03:06:42,200
Speaker 12: on what you were doing.

3229
03:06:42,640 --> 03:06:46,720
Speaker 1: I garitone Davis like a viper struck. Yeah, at the

3230
03:06:46,840 --> 03:06:50,400
Speaker 1: core of my thought process. Yeah, So if you're on

3231
03:06:51,080 --> 03:06:54,320
Speaker 1: if you're on Skeeter, then you can you can find

3232
03:06:54,320 --> 03:06:56,160
Speaker 1: the threader made I link in the show notes with

3233
03:06:56,680 --> 03:06:59,480
Speaker 1: food banks that are looking for donations, and you can

3234
03:06:59,520 --> 03:07:01,520
Speaker 1: also had to find a food bank in your area

3235
03:07:01,760 --> 03:07:04,320
Speaker 1: if you're interested in that. But yet, this is a

3236
03:07:04,360 --> 03:07:08,480
Speaker 1: serious problem. The should be the biggest news story. I'm

3237
03:07:08,480 --> 03:07:11,959
Speaker 1: thinking particularly of those folks in Alaska right who found

3238
03:07:12,000 --> 03:07:16,520
Speaker 1: themselves as climate refugees due to this storm right which

3239
03:07:16,520 --> 03:07:19,520
Speaker 1: flooded their villages, and now not only facing the loss

3240
03:07:19,560 --> 03:07:22,000
Speaker 1: of their villages and their homes, but also all their

3241
03:07:22,040 --> 03:07:24,800
Speaker 1: cased food. These are people who often would have hunted

3242
03:07:24,879 --> 03:07:28,760
Speaker 1: or fished or relied on storing food for the winter,

3243
03:07:29,320 --> 03:07:34,200
Speaker 1: and now finding themselves unable to access federal benefits.

3244
03:07:34,000 --> 03:07:37,520
Speaker 2: Doing the thing that like. There's a representative. Clay Higgins

3245
03:07:37,520 --> 03:07:42,520
Speaker 2: of Louisiana made a tweet today blaming Snap recipients for

3246
03:07:42,560 --> 03:07:45,080
Speaker 2: not stockpiling a month's worth of food.

3247
03:07:45,200 --> 03:07:46,520
Speaker 1: Does he understand how this works?

3248
03:07:46,600 --> 03:07:48,520
Speaker 2: He said, Try to get your head wrapped around how

3249
03:07:48,520 --> 03:07:51,120
Speaker 2: many pantries you can stock with forty two hundred dollars,

3250
03:07:51,360 --> 03:07:53,520
Speaker 2: which is what people get on average per year. If

3251
03:07:53,520 --> 03:07:57,080
Speaker 2: he says, with Snap benefits in properly shopped groceries, any

3252
03:07:57,120 --> 03:07:59,440
Speaker 2: American who's been receiving forty two hundred dollars per year

3253
03:07:59,440 --> 03:08:01,560
Speaker 2: of free grocer reason does not have at least one

3254
03:08:01,560 --> 03:08:04,600
Speaker 2: month of grocery stock should never again receive Snap because wow,

3255
03:08:04,640 --> 03:08:05,640
Speaker 2: stop smoking crack.

3256
03:08:05,959 --> 03:08:06,840
Speaker 12: That's inhumane.

3257
03:08:06,879 --> 03:08:08,840
Speaker 2: Dealing with the shit that they talk about is almost

3258
03:08:08,879 --> 03:08:13,800
Speaker 2: pointless because they're all liars. But like, as like what

3259
03:08:13,879 --> 03:08:16,400
Speaker 2: you said, Like people are on Snap for a wide

3260
03:08:16,480 --> 03:08:20,160
Speaker 2: variety of reasons. They're largely employed. They're just not getting

3261
03:08:20,240 --> 03:08:23,960
Speaker 2: enough money to actually like survive and feed their family.

3262
03:08:24,680 --> 03:08:29,480
Speaker 2: And like the forty two hundred dollars a year for

3263
03:08:29,640 --> 03:08:33,160
Speaker 2: a family is not in fact enough to stockpile a

3264
03:08:33,240 --> 03:08:34,600
Speaker 2: huge quantity of food.

3265
03:08:34,879 --> 03:08:38,520
Speaker 1: No, it's not like it's remarkable how totach the people

3266
03:08:38,520 --> 03:08:41,840
Speaker 1: who make our laws off from Yeah, the working class experience.

3267
03:08:42,040 --> 03:08:43,880
Speaker 9: There is no way that guy knows how much of

3268
03:08:43,879 --> 03:08:47,080
Speaker 9: banana costs, No way, zero, Well.

3269
03:08:47,000 --> 03:08:49,000
Speaker 2: He has no idea. That man isn't shopped for himself

3270
03:08:49,000 --> 03:08:50,080
Speaker 2: in fucking twenty years.

3271
03:08:50,440 --> 03:08:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that guy does not know how much it

3272
03:08:52,840 --> 03:08:55,200
Speaker 1: cost to buy mac and cheese for your kids.

3273
03:08:55,400 --> 03:08:57,960
Speaker 2: And obviously you know we hear we talk about storing food,

3274
03:08:58,000 --> 03:09:00,480
Speaker 2: about canning your own food, and there are things you

3275
03:09:00,520 --> 03:09:03,000
Speaker 2: can do even on a budget when you don't have

3276
03:09:03,080 --> 03:09:06,200
Speaker 2: much money to build a stockpile. And that's why I

3277
03:09:06,320 --> 03:09:09,440
Speaker 2: encourage people to pay attention to things like prices at

3278
03:09:09,440 --> 03:09:11,800
Speaker 2: the grocery store when things are a lot cheaper because

3279
03:09:11,800 --> 03:09:14,280
Speaker 2: they're in season, and learn how to do things like

3280
03:09:14,360 --> 03:09:17,040
Speaker 2: pressure can right and pickle different foods you want it,

3281
03:09:17,040 --> 03:09:20,560
Speaker 2: because there are ways that you can. And this is why, right,

3282
03:09:20,600 --> 03:09:24,400
Speaker 2: it's not because you should be doing that irresponsible, it's

3283
03:09:24,440 --> 03:09:27,720
Speaker 2: because we even when it comes to the social safety net,

3284
03:09:27,959 --> 03:09:29,920
Speaker 2: you know that we have what little of one that

3285
03:09:29,959 --> 03:09:32,560
Speaker 2: we have. You can't rely on it because at any

3286
03:09:32,640 --> 03:09:36,560
Speaker 2: given point it could become a fucking fucking football for

3287
03:09:37,000 --> 03:09:40,600
Speaker 2: Democrats and Republicans to fight over and go away. Right, Like,

3288
03:09:41,240 --> 03:09:44,520
Speaker 2: none of this stuff is reliable, which is why people

3289
03:09:44,680 --> 03:09:48,000
Speaker 2: ought to, if it's at all possible, be doing stuff

3290
03:09:48,040 --> 03:09:50,640
Speaker 2: like that, right, not because they should have to do that,

3291
03:09:50,760 --> 03:09:54,039
Speaker 2: but because you cannot rely on the government.

3292
03:09:54,320 --> 03:09:54,520
Speaker 3: Right.

3293
03:09:54,600 --> 03:09:57,000
Speaker 2: And I don't say that as like a critique of

3294
03:09:57,080 --> 03:09:58,959
Speaker 2: people or to like shit on people. It's just like

3295
03:09:59,000 --> 03:10:00,840
Speaker 2: it's a it's a fact. It's the fact that people

3296
03:10:00,879 --> 03:10:03,480
Speaker 2: need to increasingly accept because this is not going to

3297
03:10:03,480 --> 03:10:06,680
Speaker 2: be getting better in the long run. Yeah, let's talk

3298
03:10:06,680 --> 03:10:07,600
Speaker 2: about Graham Platner.

3299
03:10:07,640 --> 03:10:12,560
Speaker 1: All right, Oh god, I do so to touch politicians.

3300
03:10:12,600 --> 03:10:15,720
Speaker 2: A couple of weeks ago, James brought up Graham Plattner,

3301
03:10:15,800 --> 03:10:20,320
Speaker 2: who is running for Congress in Maine, and some ads

3302
03:10:20,320 --> 03:10:22,360
Speaker 2: that he had put out which were really and I

3303
03:10:22,400 --> 03:10:25,520
Speaker 2: still think are really good ads, good ads in terms

3304
03:10:25,560 --> 03:10:28,800
Speaker 2: of they were effective objectively. He raised a lot of money.

3305
03:10:28,879 --> 03:10:31,200
Speaker 2: He was leading in the polls prior to us. We'll

3306
03:10:31,200 --> 03:10:33,600
Speaker 2: talk about a bunch of scandals coming out. He's no

3307
03:10:33,680 --> 03:10:35,760
Speaker 2: longer leading, but he was doing very well for a while.

3308
03:10:36,120 --> 03:10:39,600
Speaker 2: So his campaign, the strategy that he was following, which

3309
03:10:39,640 --> 03:10:42,920
Speaker 2: was largely a mix of talking about and really pushing

3310
03:10:43,000 --> 03:10:48,800
Speaker 2: investments in social programs and particularly healthcare, and attacking the

3311
03:10:48,800 --> 03:10:51,840
Speaker 2: billionaire class in very stark terms. Talked about they need

3312
03:10:51,840 --> 03:10:55,720
Speaker 2: to effectively get rid of that as a group of people,

3313
03:10:55,800 --> 03:10:59,520
Speaker 2: like tax them out of existence. That's a popular you know,

3314
03:10:59,760 --> 03:11:02,680
Speaker 2: and a good thing to campaign on. And the success

3315
03:11:02,720 --> 03:11:04,920
Speaker 2: that he had early on is evidence that there's a

3316
03:11:04,920 --> 03:11:07,720
Speaker 2: lot of legs to talking about that kind of stuff,

3317
03:11:07,760 --> 03:11:08,960
Speaker 2: and the way that he didn't he talked about in

3318
03:11:09,000 --> 03:11:11,880
Speaker 2: a very combative way. Right, this guy was a former marine. Yeah,

3319
03:11:12,080 --> 03:11:14,760
Speaker 2: some sort of fisherman. I think whatever kind of he's

3320
03:11:14,800 --> 03:11:17,800
Speaker 2: like fish. I think it's an oyster farmer or some

3321
03:11:17,879 --> 03:11:22,440
Speaker 2: shit whatever. They have a the nonsense State, Sorry Maynites.

3322
03:11:22,280 --> 03:11:26,080
Speaker 1: They called maniacs. Technically I think they're called maners. That

3323
03:11:26,240 --> 03:11:27,160
Speaker 1: copy right Garrison.

3324
03:11:27,480 --> 03:11:29,880
Speaker 2: So he was coming across as a very like blue

3325
03:11:29,879 --> 03:11:33,400
Speaker 2: collar guy, right, like a very and kind of crude,

3326
03:11:33,440 --> 03:11:36,240
Speaker 2: but crewed in a like I'm a straight talker sort

3327
03:11:36,280 --> 03:11:39,000
Speaker 2: of guy. And that worked. That that was a good campaign,

3328
03:11:39,040 --> 03:11:41,600
Speaker 2: and we highlighted that because I think it struck you know,

3329
03:11:41,680 --> 03:11:43,240
Speaker 2: James is the one who brought it to our attention,

3330
03:11:43,320 --> 03:11:45,000
Speaker 2: but I think it struck all of us as, oh, yeah,

3331
03:11:45,080 --> 03:11:48,480
Speaker 2: this is a guy who was kind of doing talking

3332
03:11:48,640 --> 03:11:51,599
Speaker 2: to voters in a way that we wish more Democrats

3333
03:11:51,680 --> 03:11:55,360
Speaker 2: were right. And then in the last couple of weeks,

3334
03:11:55,720 --> 03:11:58,959
Speaker 2: oh god, so many scamps come out about this guy.

3335
03:11:59,480 --> 03:12:01,160
Speaker 2: The most well known of them as that for the

3336
03:12:01,280 --> 03:12:03,280
Speaker 2: last twenty years of his life he has had a

3337
03:12:03,320 --> 03:12:08,840
Speaker 2: totin cough tattooed over his pectoral that is the Death's Head. Now,

3338
03:12:08,840 --> 03:12:12,039
Speaker 2: it dates back before the Nazis. It was a niche.

3339
03:12:12,120 --> 03:12:14,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if this was the very first use

3340
03:12:14,000 --> 03:12:15,640
Speaker 2: of it, but the very first prominent use of it

3341
03:12:15,680 --> 03:12:19,400
Speaker 2: in military history was as the insignia for a unit

3342
03:12:19,440 --> 03:12:23,560
Speaker 2: called the Death'shead Hussars, which was an elite German cavalry unit.

3343
03:12:24,400 --> 03:12:25,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure I think they did still exist

3344
03:12:25,920 --> 03:12:27,480
Speaker 2: in World War One, but they were that was well

3345
03:12:27,480 --> 03:12:31,520
Speaker 2: past their prime. And it was then adopted by the SS,

3346
03:12:31,600 --> 03:12:33,640
Speaker 2: and it was worn by a number by a lot

3347
03:12:33,680 --> 03:12:36,160
Speaker 2: of guys in the SS, but it was specifically the

3348
03:12:36,160 --> 03:12:39,560
Speaker 2: insignia of a unit called the totenkof SS, which existed

3349
03:12:39,600 --> 03:12:44,039
Speaker 2: to guard concentration camps and death camps. So having one tattooed.

3350
03:12:43,640 --> 03:12:46,000
Speaker 1: On you bad, Yeah, not cool.

3351
03:12:46,320 --> 03:12:49,480
Speaker 2: Platner has said, basically, it was a dumb tattoo I

3352
03:12:49,520 --> 03:12:52,240
Speaker 2: got when I was young and just joining the Marine Corps,

3353
03:12:52,360 --> 03:12:54,640
Speaker 2: and I didn't know what it meant. And I am

3354
03:12:54,680 --> 03:12:57,600
Speaker 2: willing to believe that like a nineteen year old who

3355
03:12:57,720 --> 03:13:01,080
Speaker 2: joins the Marines would make a bad tattoo decision, because

3356
03:13:01,120 --> 03:13:02,560
Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends that were in the

3357
03:13:02,560 --> 03:13:07,640
Speaker 2: Marines and they all have bad tattoos, right, none of

3358
03:13:07,680 --> 03:13:09,240
Speaker 2: them have Death's heads.

3359
03:13:10,240 --> 03:13:13,119
Speaker 12: So you got it well in like Croatia drunk.

3360
03:13:13,840 --> 03:13:17,039
Speaker 2: Yeah right, and he was, he was hammered.

3361
03:13:17,000 --> 03:13:19,320
Speaker 12: And yeah, the probability of walking into a tattoo shop

3362
03:13:19,360 --> 03:13:21,720
Speaker 12: in Croatia and coming out with a Nazi tattoo is

3363
03:13:21,800 --> 03:13:22,800
Speaker 12: extremely high.

3364
03:13:23,000 --> 03:13:25,480
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, it's not low.

3365
03:13:25,800 --> 03:13:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, they're on the flash seat for Friday the thirteenth.

3366
03:13:29,120 --> 03:13:30,160
Speaker 1: They probably are.

3367
03:13:31,560 --> 03:13:33,360
Speaker 2: If it had just come out that he'd had this

3368
03:13:33,440 --> 03:13:35,119
Speaker 2: for some period of time, being like, yeah, I got

3369
03:13:35,160 --> 03:13:37,160
Speaker 2: like I was hammered in Croatia and I got a

3370
03:13:37,200 --> 03:13:39,640
Speaker 2: fucked up tattoo and realized it and got it covered.

3371
03:13:40,000 --> 03:13:43,400
Speaker 2: I had it been like not a story, right, like

3372
03:13:43,560 --> 03:13:47,000
Speaker 2: man gets bad tattoos, dumb kid. But number one, he

3373
03:13:47,080 --> 03:13:48,920
Speaker 2: kept it until he got it covered in like the

3374
03:13:49,000 --> 03:13:49,959
Speaker 2: last week or so.

3375
03:13:50,320 --> 03:13:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me tell you that was a real piece

3376
03:13:52,959 --> 03:13:54,199
Speaker 1: of odd that he covered.

3377
03:13:53,879 --> 03:13:58,280
Speaker 2: It with, which is a wild choice to just keep

3378
03:13:58,320 --> 03:14:00,600
Speaker 2: it for that long. But also he and I had

3379
03:14:00,640 --> 03:14:03,359
Speaker 2: no idea until it like came out as a story

3380
03:14:03,400 --> 03:14:06,560
Speaker 2: because I forget what outlet, but some news outlet found

3381
03:14:06,560 --> 03:14:08,240
Speaker 2: out that he had it and was going to publish it,

3382
03:14:08,280 --> 03:14:08,720
Speaker 2: and I.

3383
03:14:08,640 --> 03:14:11,880
Speaker 1: Think his team told Pod Save America when he went

3384
03:14:11,879 --> 03:14:13,760
Speaker 1: on the PUD Save America pod.

3385
03:14:14,040 --> 03:14:17,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, but he had heard that there was opposition research.

3386
03:14:18,040 --> 03:14:21,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, because he had sent out to like another

3387
03:14:21,879 --> 03:14:23,800
Speaker 9: thing that he went on, like a picture of him

3388
03:14:23,800 --> 03:14:28,320
Speaker 9: with his shirt off, and they were like, wait, what, Like.

3389
03:14:28,760 --> 03:14:30,040
Speaker 1: There were a few of them floating around.

3390
03:14:30,120 --> 03:14:30,760
Speaker 8: Huh.

3391
03:14:30,959 --> 03:14:32,920
Speaker 1: If you've lived that kind of life, there's going to

3392
03:14:32,959 --> 03:14:35,280
Speaker 1: be pitches of you with the shirt off, you know,

3393
03:14:35,480 --> 03:14:37,439
Speaker 1: like the refusing to acknowledge.

3394
03:14:37,520 --> 03:14:40,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew earlier in my life that it was

3395
03:14:40,879 --> 03:14:43,680
Speaker 2: a death's head and like there's reports from people who

3396
03:14:43,760 --> 03:14:46,120
Speaker 2: knew him that he called it a tote gough and

3397
03:14:46,200 --> 03:14:46,920
Speaker 2: joked about it.

3398
03:14:47,360 --> 03:14:49,160
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I'll be clear.

3399
03:14:49,440 --> 03:14:52,520
Speaker 2: I don't actually think that Graham is a secret Nazi

3400
03:14:52,879 --> 03:14:56,160
Speaker 2: sleeper agent. I really don't. I think he's a guy

3401
03:14:56,640 --> 03:15:00,600
Speaker 2: with really questionable judgment, which is where he's and you know,

3402
03:15:00,720 --> 03:15:04,400
Speaker 2: to be very critical of his campaign. And yeah, I

3403
03:15:05,120 --> 03:15:07,280
Speaker 2: take a lot of issue with how he's responded to

3404
03:15:07,320 --> 03:15:09,920
Speaker 2: this because rather than again just kind of doing a

3405
03:15:09,959 --> 03:15:13,200
Speaker 2: MEA POPA, he's gone on the this is my enemies

3406
03:15:13,200 --> 03:15:16,360
Speaker 2: in the Democratic Party trying to silence me thing and

3407
03:15:16,400 --> 03:15:20,400
Speaker 2: a very weird coalition has propped up kind of around him,

3408
03:15:20,440 --> 03:15:24,080
Speaker 2: trying to argue that this is a circular firing squad

3409
03:15:24,280 --> 03:15:27,320
Speaker 2: kind of deal. Like there was a Jacobin article being

3410
03:15:27,400 --> 03:15:29,480
Speaker 2: like it's fucked up that people are going after Graham

3411
03:15:29,480 --> 03:15:31,600
Speaker 2: and the pod Save guys are defending him, like it

3412
03:15:31,720 --> 03:15:35,200
Speaker 2: is a weird coalition that's circling around this fella.

3413
03:15:35,360 --> 03:15:37,840
Speaker 12: What do you think that Joe Rogan of the Left meant?

3414
03:15:38,120 --> 03:15:40,080
Speaker 12: Vibes essays.

3415
03:15:41,280 --> 03:15:43,520
Speaker 1: We wanted a guy who took loads of steroids and

3416
03:15:43,560 --> 03:15:45,440
Speaker 1: didn't have problematic opinions.

3417
03:15:46,080 --> 03:15:48,520
Speaker 2: I'm never gonna say this in any other instance about

3418
03:15:48,560 --> 03:15:51,840
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan, but he wouldn't have gotten that tattoo because

3419
03:15:51,840 --> 03:15:53,280
Speaker 2: he knows what a death said.

3420
03:15:54,640 --> 03:15:56,280
Speaker 12: I don't know if he knew in like two thousand

3421
03:15:56,280 --> 03:15:59,480
Speaker 12: and seven or what. I think there's a very strong

3422
03:16:00,000 --> 03:16:02,640
Speaker 12: innate world where two thousand and seven, Joe Rogan is

3423
03:16:02,680 --> 03:16:07,320
Speaker 12: traveling at accidentally gets a god tattoo.

3424
03:16:07,720 --> 03:16:10,360
Speaker 2: It's not impossible. You're right, You're right. I guess I'm

3425
03:16:10,400 --> 03:16:13,920
Speaker 2: just assuming he's watched enough World War two documentaries to know.

3426
03:16:14,080 --> 03:16:17,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, but watching those while like smoking weeds, so he

3427
03:16:17,200 --> 03:16:18,440
Speaker 12: doesn't remember anything.

3428
03:16:19,320 --> 03:16:22,680
Speaker 2: That's fair. These are fair points. You're making Garrison. So

3429
03:16:23,280 --> 03:16:25,600
Speaker 2: a couple of surprising things about this, and this is

3430
03:16:25,640 --> 03:16:28,120
Speaker 2: not the only scandal that's kind of come out about

3431
03:16:28,160 --> 03:16:31,199
Speaker 2: him recently, but at number one, it did not immediately

3432
03:16:31,440 --> 03:16:33,400
Speaker 2: take a strong hit to his polling. This seems to

3433
03:16:33,400 --> 03:16:36,920
Speaker 2: be primarily just because a lot of voters aren't aware

3434
03:16:36,920 --> 03:16:39,039
Speaker 2: of it. Because in poles where they at where they

3435
03:16:39,120 --> 03:16:42,960
Speaker 2: informed people that he had a Nazi tattoo, his support

3436
03:16:43,160 --> 03:16:47,600
Speaker 2: drops dramatically by like thirty points. That said, he was

3437
03:16:47,680 --> 03:16:50,039
Speaker 2: leading until like two or three days ago, I think

3438
03:16:50,160 --> 03:16:52,040
Speaker 2: was the most recent poll that came out that had

3439
03:16:52,040 --> 03:16:55,560
Speaker 2: a main governor, Janet Mills, in the lead above him.

3440
03:16:56,040 --> 03:16:58,560
Speaker 2: We're not talking about the main race. This is we're

3441
03:16:58,560 --> 03:17:01,800
Speaker 2: still in the primary, right, so he's challenging Janet Mills

3442
03:17:01,800 --> 03:17:02,439
Speaker 2: for the primary.

3443
03:17:02,640 --> 03:17:03,000
Speaker 1: Sure.

3444
03:17:03,080 --> 03:17:05,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, at present, according to so called strategies who

3445
03:17:05,920 --> 03:17:09,160
Speaker 2: did a pole very recently and it's the most recent poll,

3446
03:17:09,520 --> 03:17:12,680
Speaker 2: Mills has forty one percent from likely voters and Platner

3447
03:17:12,720 --> 03:17:15,640
Speaker 2: has thirty six percent, although about a fifth of respondence

3448
03:17:15,680 --> 03:17:21,560
Speaker 2: are undecided. And yeah, this is a pretty dramatic upset

3449
03:17:21,640 --> 03:17:24,720
Speaker 2: because prior to the whole Nazi tattoo news coming out,

3450
03:17:24,760 --> 03:17:27,320
Speaker 2: Platner was leading Mills by about thirty four points. So

3451
03:17:27,360 --> 03:17:29,560
Speaker 2: this has gone from Platner looked to have it in

3452
03:17:29,600 --> 03:17:33,200
Speaker 2: the bag to it's pretty close. Mills is ahead, not

3453
03:17:33,360 --> 03:17:36,360
Speaker 2: by a lead that's so commanding that it's a definite thing.

3454
03:17:36,600 --> 03:17:40,160
Speaker 2: You know, a standard polling error could have them basically

3455
03:17:40,200 --> 03:17:43,240
Speaker 2: be neck and neck, and we all should know at

3456
03:17:43,240 --> 03:17:45,760
Speaker 2: this point how frequently that kind of stuff happens.

3457
03:17:45,959 --> 03:17:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, polling never wrong.

3458
03:17:48,280 --> 03:17:50,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I don't know. It's one of those.

3459
03:17:51,120 --> 03:17:53,440
Speaker 2: Somebody got angry at us on the subreddit, being like,

3460
03:17:53,480 --> 03:17:56,080
Speaker 2: I can't believe they're hiding that like this has happened,

3461
03:17:56,200 --> 03:17:58,920
Speaker 2: you know, with this guy that they endorsed like we

3462
03:17:58,959 --> 03:18:02,840
Speaker 2: did Endor seven Uber two like this, this shit was breaking.

3463
03:18:02,920 --> 03:18:05,720
Speaker 2: When we were recording the ed last week. We made

3464
03:18:05,760 --> 03:18:08,160
Speaker 2: like a reference about it, but not much had come out,

3465
03:18:08,160 --> 03:18:09,920
Speaker 2: and there certainly hadn't been time for us to really

3466
03:18:09,920 --> 03:18:12,840
Speaker 2: look into what was going on here. And it's not

3467
03:18:13,280 --> 03:18:16,000
Speaker 2: this is a main Senate primary, and this is not

3468
03:18:16,160 --> 03:18:19,080
Speaker 2: like the very top of our list of crucial things

3469
03:18:19,120 --> 03:18:21,600
Speaker 2: to hit the second it happens. We can wait on

3470
03:18:21,680 --> 03:18:24,119
Speaker 2: something like this to see how stuff's shaking out.

3471
03:18:24,000 --> 03:18:24,520
Speaker 3: A little bit.

3472
03:18:24,959 --> 03:18:28,200
Speaker 2: No one's voting yet, so It's not like we're influencing

3473
03:18:28,280 --> 03:18:31,400
Speaker 2: the election by not coming out or whatever.

3474
03:18:31,760 --> 03:18:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, like we only get to coup so much. We

3475
03:18:34,240 --> 03:18:36,800
Speaker 1: have one hour of like News round up show a week,

3476
03:18:36,959 --> 03:18:40,320
Speaker 1: and the Blue Sky Twitter drama about Grand Plannery is

3477
03:18:40,360 --> 03:18:42,280
Speaker 1: not as important as the fact that millions of people

3478
03:18:42,320 --> 03:18:44,440
Speaker 1: are losing their food this week.

3479
03:18:44,760 --> 03:18:44,960
Speaker 3: Now.

3480
03:18:45,520 --> 03:18:47,280
Speaker 2: One thing that is interesting, and I do think this

3481
03:18:47,320 --> 03:18:49,080
Speaker 2: is an important race just because of kind of what

3482
03:18:49,160 --> 03:18:51,879
Speaker 2: it says about what sort of strategies are working now

3483
03:18:51,920 --> 03:18:55,160
Speaker 2: and igniting the base, and what kind of stuff does

3484
03:18:55,240 --> 03:18:57,560
Speaker 2: matter in terms of scandals. I think there are some

3485
03:18:57,600 --> 03:18:59,600
Speaker 2: things that are really relevant here. One thing that is

3486
03:18:59,600 --> 03:19:02,080
Speaker 2: interesting to me is that, according to a poll, very

3487
03:19:02,080 --> 03:19:04,560
Speaker 2: recent poll the article came in October twenty sixth, twenty

3488
03:19:04,600 --> 03:19:09,840
Speaker 2: twenty five, majority of young Democrats still back Graham Platner

3489
03:19:09,959 --> 03:19:12,959
Speaker 2: even after the whole tattoo thing. And this is really

3490
03:19:13,000 --> 03:19:16,200
Speaker 2: interesting to me because the data shows that in general,

3491
03:19:16,240 --> 03:19:20,080
Speaker 2: among likely voters, his potential support plummets when people are

3492
03:19:20,120 --> 03:19:23,400
Speaker 2: made aware that he had the tattoo. But young Democrats

3493
03:19:23,400 --> 03:19:25,840
Speaker 2: are by far the group most likely to have become

3494
03:19:25,879 --> 03:19:27,920
Speaker 2: aware of it as soon as the story broke, because

3495
03:19:27,959 --> 03:19:30,720
Speaker 2: young people are much more online than older people, and

3496
03:19:30,760 --> 03:19:34,320
Speaker 2: among young people he's still well ahead, which I really

3497
03:19:34,360 --> 03:19:37,520
Speaker 2: just do think speaks more than anything to the strength

3498
03:19:37,600 --> 03:19:40,119
Speaker 2: of the rhetoric he has been using. The platform that

3499
03:19:40,160 --> 03:19:42,920
Speaker 2: he came out the gate with. It's and the rhetoric right,

3500
03:19:42,959 --> 03:19:46,640
Speaker 2: his combative rhetoric is really attractive to young voters, especially.

3501
03:19:46,320 --> 03:19:49,039
Speaker 1: Explain your generation to us Garrison, why you like this.

3502
03:19:49,560 --> 03:19:52,640
Speaker 12: I mean, there's a lot of stuff that the Zoron

3503
03:19:52,720 --> 03:19:54,320
Speaker 12: campaign kind of like ignited around.

3504
03:19:54,480 --> 03:19:56,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, exactly absolute rhetoric.

3505
03:19:56,920 --> 03:20:00,560
Speaker 12: And then you know, Sanders and AOC had their anti

3506
03:20:00,640 --> 03:20:04,000
Speaker 12: oligarchy tour, which I mean, we don't need to like

3507
03:20:04,000 --> 03:20:07,480
Speaker 12: debate like the use of like that term. But no,

3508
03:20:07,520 --> 03:20:12,480
Speaker 12: there isn't a huge frustration at the geriatric Democratic Party,

3509
03:20:12,560 --> 03:20:15,440
Speaker 12: and this sort of populist rhetoric is very popular among

3510
03:20:15,480 --> 03:20:18,280
Speaker 12: young people as it as it has been since the

3511
03:20:18,360 --> 03:20:21,000
Speaker 12: Sanders campaign in twenty sixteen. This isn't like new a

3512
03:20:21,080 --> 03:20:25,959
Speaker 12: revolutionary information. The fact that this guy has gotten to

3513
03:20:26,160 --> 03:20:29,880
Speaker 12: this point has gotten either past scandals or it's navigating

3514
03:20:29,920 --> 03:20:34,040
Speaker 12: through it. Despite his like you know, very questionable background

3515
03:20:34,080 --> 03:20:39,199
Speaker 12: and military and uh military private contracting, his like misogynistic

3516
03:20:39,600 --> 03:20:42,600
Speaker 12: Reddit posts which were unearthed as as like an attack

3517
03:20:42,640 --> 03:20:45,880
Speaker 12: against him, which I think he actually handled that scandal

3518
03:20:45,959 --> 03:20:49,600
Speaker 12: fairly well, using it as a parallel to chart his

3519
03:20:49,840 --> 03:20:53,840
Speaker 12: own political journey. So yeah, I can understand why a

3520
03:20:53,879 --> 03:20:57,200
Speaker 12: whole bunch of young people who are reading about this

3521
03:20:57,400 --> 03:20:59,680
Speaker 12: aren't gonna actually care at all about any of these

3522
03:20:59,680 --> 03:21:02,400
Speaker 12: stories and still vote for him because of what he's saying.

3523
03:21:02,640 --> 03:21:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to be clear, I didn't bring

3524
03:21:04,440 --> 03:21:07,039
Speaker 2: this up because it's bad even that, like young people

3525
03:21:07,080 --> 03:21:09,360
Speaker 2: are still supporting him. I think this is something that people,

3526
03:21:09,560 --> 03:21:12,560
Speaker 2: especially in the Democratic Party, who care about winning, And

3527
03:21:12,600 --> 03:21:15,200
Speaker 2: I think it's people on the left who are trying

3528
03:21:15,200 --> 03:21:19,400
Speaker 2: to look at what can we do to get more

3529
03:21:19,480 --> 03:21:22,920
Speaker 2: progressive and combative candidates who are going to do something

3530
03:21:23,000 --> 03:21:27,039
Speaker 2: both about the right and about the billionaire class. What

3531
03:21:27,080 --> 03:21:31,080
Speaker 2: can we do to actually like win. You should be

3532
03:21:31,120 --> 03:21:33,840
Speaker 2: paying attention to this because this this rhetoric works.

3533
03:21:34,120 --> 03:21:37,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, and because surely there's one other guy who can

3534
03:21:37,600 --> 03:21:45,360
Speaker 12: say these things enough. You can find one person who

3535
03:21:45,400 --> 03:21:49,280
Speaker 12: could use rhetoric, is good on camera and has not

3536
03:21:49,440 --> 03:21:52,320
Speaker 12: had a totalent CoV tattooed on their chest for almost

3537
03:21:52,320 --> 03:21:53,039
Speaker 12: twenty years.

3538
03:21:53,120 --> 03:21:56,560
Speaker 9: Yeah. And also the most wild part about this, I

3539
03:21:56,560 --> 03:22:00,640
Speaker 9: don't even think is that it's that this guy was

3540
03:22:00,920 --> 03:22:04,560
Speaker 9: in Blackwater, like so Eid's constell Us, but he calls

3541
03:22:04,600 --> 03:22:05,279
Speaker 9: it Blackwater.

3542
03:22:05,640 --> 03:22:10,000
Speaker 1: He was, yeah, that's the other scandals. Please, let's let's yeah.

3543
03:22:10,480 --> 03:22:16,800
Speaker 9: He deployed to Afghanistan for Blackwater in twenty eight their

3544
03:22:17,000 --> 03:22:20,440
Speaker 9: first shrug administration. No one at any point in this

3545
03:22:20,520 --> 03:22:24,520
Speaker 9: process went, hold on, wait, this guy went to fight

3546
03:22:24,640 --> 03:22:27,959
Speaker 9: in Afghanistan, like in twenty eighteen.

3547
03:22:28,480 --> 03:22:34,080
Speaker 16: Like, yeah, they prosecuted the guys from Nisar Square, Yeah,

3548
03:22:34,120 --> 03:22:36,720
Speaker 16: from the Sour Square massacre. Yeah, after the square, Like

3549
03:22:37,040 --> 03:22:39,960
Speaker 16: those people got prosecuted four years before that.

3550
03:22:40,440 --> 03:22:42,920
Speaker 9: And he joined Blackwater in twenty eighteen.

3551
03:22:43,640 --> 03:22:45,840
Speaker 2: And to be clear, because this is something James brought

3552
03:22:45,879 --> 03:22:47,960
Speaker 2: up when we talked about this in our chat previously,

3553
03:22:48,400 --> 03:22:52,120
Speaker 2: he didn't technically join Blackwater because Blackwater has changed its

3554
03:22:52,200 --> 03:22:53,840
Speaker 2: name and I think merged for a couple of countries.

3555
03:22:53,879 --> 03:22:54,600
Speaker 2: It was a culprit.

3556
03:22:55,280 --> 03:22:58,039
Speaker 1: But to be fair to me, yeah, he got all

3557
03:22:58,160 --> 03:23:03,840
Speaker 1: that Blackwater. He said, I worked for Blackwater. There's a

3558
03:23:03,920 --> 03:23:06,680
Speaker 1: way in which like, I'm okay with people fucking up

3559
03:23:06,720 --> 03:23:09,240
Speaker 1: if they acknowledge they funked up, right, Like, I'm okay

3560
03:23:09,240 --> 03:23:11,480
Speaker 1: with him saying I did this and it was wrong,

3561
03:23:11,800 --> 03:23:14,360
Speaker 1: So I left and I regret doing it.

3562
03:23:14,480 --> 03:23:16,720
Speaker 12: I mean that that is what he's saying, though it

3563
03:23:16,760 --> 03:23:20,080
Speaker 12: was specifically after this deployment. Yes, this is where he

3564
03:23:20,120 --> 03:23:23,800
Speaker 12: says that like this marked his like political coticalization or

3565
03:23:23,840 --> 03:23:26,720
Speaker 12: like yeah, during the path of like how he viewed

3566
03:23:26,720 --> 03:23:30,439
Speaker 12: his life in politics specifically was negative experiences during this deployment.

3567
03:23:30,520 --> 03:23:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I guess that is something I have

3568
03:23:33,840 --> 03:23:36,920
Speaker 2: really complicated opinions on because I'm I'm not and I

3569
03:23:37,160 --> 03:23:38,640
Speaker 2: really have a lot of issues with folks on the

3570
03:23:38,720 --> 03:23:40,360
Speaker 2: left who are like anyone who was ever in the

3571
03:23:40,360 --> 03:23:46,359
Speaker 2: military is forever and deeply like I think that's yeah, deeply,

3572
03:23:46,560 --> 03:23:52,400
Speaker 2: deeply unseerious and incredibly counterproductive. And I don't I think that,

3573
03:23:52,560 --> 03:23:56,920
Speaker 2: like it's good that someone can do something as fucked

3574
03:23:57,000 --> 03:23:59,800
Speaker 2: up as joined Blackwater and realize that they did a

3575
03:23:59,800 --> 03:24:04,560
Speaker 2: harleble thing and change. Maybe doing it in twenty eighteen

3576
03:24:04,879 --> 03:24:07,360
Speaker 2: is too recently for me to want him in Congress

3577
03:24:07,480 --> 03:24:08,400
Speaker 2: as a progressive.

3578
03:24:08,480 --> 03:24:08,879
Speaker 8: I don't know.

3579
03:24:09,480 --> 03:24:11,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, it was like that was it was like a

3580
03:24:11,840 --> 03:24:14,280
Speaker 9: decade after like he was one of the so he

3581
03:24:14,320 --> 03:24:17,279
Speaker 9: wasn't one of the like the torture guards. But no, no,

3582
03:24:16,959 --> 03:24:19,080
Speaker 9: like when he was a marine. He guard, He was

3583
03:24:19,120 --> 03:24:20,600
Speaker 9: like one of the guys he was like assigned to

3584
03:24:20,680 --> 03:24:24,560
Speaker 9: guard Aubu Grab. Yeah, I think, yeah, the torture scandal.

3585
03:24:24,600 --> 03:24:26,280
Speaker 9: But it's it's like it took you, it took you

3586
03:24:26,400 --> 03:24:30,000
Speaker 9: like a decade after that. Yeah, is that maybe the

3587
03:24:30,000 --> 03:24:31,760
Speaker 9: thing I'm doing is bad? Like I just I just

3588
03:24:31,840 --> 03:24:32,520
Speaker 9: oh god.

3589
03:24:32,560 --> 03:24:35,039
Speaker 2: Well yeah, And that's that's kind of like the because

3590
03:24:35,040 --> 03:24:37,640
Speaker 2: I don't, you know, I don't think having been stationed

3591
03:24:37,680 --> 03:24:41,200
Speaker 2: to guard a place where horrible thing like war crimes

3592
03:24:41,200 --> 03:24:45,960
Speaker 2: were committed necessarily damns you forever, because like you don't

3593
03:24:46,040 --> 03:24:48,440
Speaker 2: choose where you're stationed. A guard who knows when he

3594
03:24:48,520 --> 03:24:51,840
Speaker 2: became aware what was going on in the place he

3595
03:24:51,920 --> 03:24:54,760
Speaker 2: was guarding, But at some point he did and that

3596
03:24:55,160 --> 03:24:57,240
Speaker 2: wasn't like the moment where he was like, ah fuck,

3597
03:24:58,000 --> 03:24:59,760
Speaker 2: you know. And I again, I have a lot of

3598
03:24:59,760 --> 03:25:02,160
Speaker 2: friend I have friends who were with the very first

3599
03:25:02,280 --> 03:25:05,720
Speaker 2: infantry unit into Iraq, one of whom, as they were invading,

3600
03:25:05,840 --> 03:25:07,840
Speaker 2: was like, you know this is criminal, guys, right, you

3601
03:25:07,840 --> 03:25:10,880
Speaker 2: know we're breaking you know this is fucked up. You

3602
03:25:10,920 --> 03:25:15,040
Speaker 2: know this this war's bullshit. Pat Tillman was saying that, right,

3603
03:25:15,240 --> 03:25:16,439
Speaker 2: like Derd.

3604
03:25:16,040 --> 03:25:20,200
Speaker 9: The invasions, this guy ship out in twenty sixteen.

3605
03:25:20,840 --> 03:25:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like it took him.

3606
03:25:23,320 --> 03:25:26,519
Speaker 9: I would it took him, manutes, it took him reasonably

3607
03:25:26,600 --> 03:25:28,800
Speaker 9: long time. And also when you read his interviews about it,

3608
03:25:28,920 --> 03:25:30,000
Speaker 9: he's like, I did it because it was.

3609
03:25:29,959 --> 03:25:31,880
Speaker 2: Fun, which is just like, that's that's honest.

3610
03:25:31,920 --> 03:25:34,959
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's honest. It makes me insane.

3611
03:25:35,400 --> 03:25:38,160
Speaker 2: Look, I mean, that's that's why people join the Marines,

3612
03:25:38,240 --> 03:25:41,880
Speaker 2: is they like money and or they're adrenaline jokies.

3613
03:25:41,959 --> 03:25:44,560
Speaker 1: Right, I'd rather he was honest about that shit. Actually,

3614
03:25:44,560 --> 03:25:47,560
Speaker 1: like I I am. It is just like distressing.

3615
03:25:48,400 --> 03:25:51,920
Speaker 2: I actually like that. And again I do kind of

3616
03:25:52,040 --> 03:25:54,520
Speaker 2: like because there's not a there's not a perfect answer

3617
03:25:54,520 --> 03:25:56,920
Speaker 2: as to like, well, when should you have had a

3618
03:25:57,120 --> 03:26:01,000
Speaker 2: change of heart about something like this before you can

3619
03:26:01,080 --> 03:26:04,600
Speaker 2: like be trusted as a political leader on the left.

3620
03:26:04,640 --> 03:26:07,760
Speaker 2: And I actually don't really know. I think I would

3621
03:26:07,840 --> 03:26:11,039
Speaker 2: be inclined to be like give him the benefit of

3622
03:26:11,080 --> 03:26:15,200
Speaker 2: the doubt on that stuff more if it weren't for

3623
03:26:15,240 --> 03:26:15,520
Speaker 2: the not.

3624
03:26:16,760 --> 03:26:21,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, play shift out with plug eighteen.

3625
03:26:21,720 --> 03:26:25,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, all those things together are kind of sketchy.

3626
03:26:25,640 --> 03:26:28,519
Speaker 9: Maybe do a couple of tours as a dog catcher first.

3627
03:26:28,560 --> 03:26:31,280
Speaker 2: Like, you know, I'm seeing a lot of because there's

3628
03:26:31,280 --> 03:26:32,800
Speaker 2: a whole lot of like, well, no one else who

3629
03:26:32,879 --> 03:26:35,160
Speaker 2: has a chance of winning in Maine is supporting the

3630
03:26:35,200 --> 03:26:38,400
Speaker 2: progressive policies he is. You know, you can't have it

3631
03:26:38,440 --> 03:26:41,520
Speaker 2: all be perfect or whatever he's you know, we should

3632
03:26:41,560 --> 03:26:43,680
Speaker 2: at least hope that he gets in and he does

3633
03:26:43,720 --> 03:26:46,520
Speaker 2: the things he's saying. And I guess, like, if he

3634
03:26:46,560 --> 03:26:50,480
Speaker 2: does get elected, and it's not the most likely thing

3635
03:26:50,560 --> 03:26:53,160
Speaker 2: right now, but it's certainly not impossible, I guess I

3636
03:26:53,200 --> 03:26:55,960
Speaker 2: hope he does the good stuff he says that he's done.

3637
03:26:56,560 --> 03:26:59,080
Speaker 2: I just have a lot less faith in that, given

3638
03:26:59,200 --> 03:27:01,680
Speaker 2: both what's coming and his reaction to it.

3639
03:27:01,760 --> 03:27:05,320
Speaker 1: Right, it's his reaction to it. It was really disqualifying, right, like, right,

3640
03:27:05,440 --> 03:27:07,760
Speaker 1: there's a world I guess I didn't know that he

3641
03:27:07,840 --> 03:27:10,680
Speaker 1: told people it was a total golf that's pretty fucking incriminating.

3642
03:27:10,720 --> 03:27:13,600
Speaker 12: But yeah, there's reports from people who have said that

3643
03:27:13,680 --> 03:27:14,400
Speaker 12: it's it's unclear.

3644
03:27:14,480 --> 03:27:16,040
Speaker 1: Okay, there's reports, got it.

3645
03:27:16,240 --> 03:27:18,800
Speaker 2: We don't know objectively, but people have talked to the

3646
03:27:18,800 --> 03:27:20,840
Speaker 2: press who knew him and said that he described it

3647
03:27:20,879 --> 03:27:22,640
Speaker 2: as a total cough to them several years ago.

3648
03:27:22,760 --> 03:27:26,040
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, if his response had been like, oh fuck,

3649
03:27:26,520 --> 03:27:28,640
Speaker 1: I didn't know let me get that covered up immediately.

3650
03:27:29,200 --> 03:27:33,200
Speaker 1: That's his response was so bad. To defend it and

3651
03:27:33,240 --> 03:27:35,560
Speaker 1: to be like there's a conspiracy against it. Really bad.

3652
03:27:35,760 --> 03:27:38,800
Speaker 1: It's that failure. And it also just shows like a

3653
03:27:38,879 --> 03:27:41,039
Speaker 1: lack of judgment and lack of ability to like be

3654
03:27:41,200 --> 03:27:45,520
Speaker 1: critical of his own actions, which is worrying.

3655
03:27:45,720 --> 03:27:50,720
Speaker 2: It shows the kind of Trumpian fancifulness that really worries me.

3656
03:27:51,080 --> 03:27:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, demnic Augay kind of thing.

3657
03:27:53,080 --> 03:27:55,360
Speaker 12: A lot of populists are like this, like this is

3658
03:27:55,440 --> 03:27:58,840
Speaker 12: this is a part of populist Yes, yes, I don't

3659
03:27:58,879 --> 03:28:00,120
Speaker 12: think you can fully decouple.

3660
03:28:01,120 --> 03:28:07,279
Speaker 2: That's probably true, Garrison. Yeah, that's probably true, But I

3661
03:28:07,280 --> 03:28:09,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not gonna tell you how to vote.

3662
03:28:09,280 --> 03:28:11,840
Speaker 2: I've made a habit of never telling people how to vote.

3663
03:28:11,879 --> 03:28:15,720
Speaker 2: So if you're in Maine, enjoy your mc lobster and

3664
03:28:15,959 --> 03:28:17,960
Speaker 2: do whatever your heart tells you. It's the right thing

3665
03:28:18,080 --> 03:28:20,600
Speaker 2: to do, my friend. But also, please don't eat a

3666
03:28:20,680 --> 03:28:25,000
Speaker 2: mc lobster there. It's clearly poisoned, you know. Avoid avoid

3667
03:28:25,000 --> 03:28:26,800
Speaker 2: a mc lobster's at all costs.

3668
03:28:27,640 --> 03:28:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, buy an oyster ins to it.

3669
03:28:29,360 --> 03:28:34,000
Speaker 12: The strongest endorsement Robert Ethans can make, is it not

3670
03:28:34,280 --> 03:28:35,200
Speaker 12: by a MC lobster.

3671
03:28:36,440 --> 03:28:38,560
Speaker 2: Avoid a MC lobster at all costs.

3672
03:28:39,080 --> 03:28:41,360
Speaker 1: If you're on the West coast, avoid shellfish, and in

3673
03:28:41,400 --> 03:28:43,480
Speaker 1: some months it will costs because you can get paralytic

3674
03:28:43,600 --> 03:28:44,440
Speaker 1: shellfish poisoning.

3675
03:28:44,760 --> 03:28:47,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean some people, that's just basically getting

3676
03:28:47,760 --> 03:28:48,800
Speaker 2: free muscle relaxers.

3677
03:28:48,879 --> 03:28:58,120
Speaker 12: James's let's do it ad break for muscle at excerpts. Okay,

3678
03:29:07,120 --> 03:29:11,360
Speaker 12: all right, we are back. Can I do my Halloween

3679
03:29:11,600 --> 03:29:16,200
Speaker 12: ice Nazi? Sure Bevino segment? Is that how you say

3680
03:29:16,200 --> 03:29:17,040
Speaker 12: his name? Bavino?

3681
03:29:17,600 --> 03:29:17,800
Speaker 3: Greg?

3682
03:29:19,400 --> 03:29:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Greg Green?

3683
03:29:20,520 --> 03:29:23,199
Speaker 12: It looks like a Bavino to me. So we're gonna

3684
03:29:23,200 --> 03:29:26,800
Speaker 12: talk about him playing dress up and how border patrol

3685
03:29:27,200 --> 03:29:30,760
Speaker 12: disrupted a Halloween parade. So last weekend, while conducting an

3686
03:29:30,760 --> 03:29:34,360
Speaker 12: immigration enforcement range, border patrol disrupted the root of a

3687
03:29:34,480 --> 03:29:39,000
Speaker 12: children's Halloween parade in Old Irving Park in Chicago, using

3688
03:29:39,040 --> 03:29:42,080
Speaker 12: tear gas and arresting several people, including two US citizens.

3689
03:29:42,959 --> 03:29:45,720
Speaker 12: A crowd gathered around after a border patrol arrested a

3690
03:29:45,720 --> 03:29:48,040
Speaker 12: thirty five year old construction worker who has lived in

3691
03:29:48,120 --> 03:29:53,920
Speaker 12: Chicago since he was four years old. Jesus neighborhood residents

3692
03:29:54,040 --> 03:29:57,160
Speaker 12: said that federal agents then deployed tear gas without warning

3693
03:29:58,200 --> 03:30:02,600
Speaker 12: that following Tuesday, the ARC attacked of Operation Midway Blitz.

3694
03:30:03,280 --> 03:30:05,800
Speaker 12: Greg Bavino appeared in a federal corps a part of

3695
03:30:05,800 --> 03:30:09,640
Speaker 12: a lawsuit alleging excessive force and violations of a tro

3696
03:30:09,879 --> 03:30:13,760
Speaker 12: restricting the use of tear gas and crowd control munitions.

3697
03:30:14,160 --> 03:30:18,400
Speaker 12: Bavino seems to be flagrantly violating this tro as he

3698
03:30:18,560 --> 03:30:21,600
Speaker 12: was photographed personally throwing a tear guest canister into a

3699
03:30:21,600 --> 03:30:24,200
Speaker 12: crowd in October twenty second during a raid on a

3700
03:30:24,280 --> 03:30:28,440
Speaker 12: laundromat and home depot. The DHS says that protesters were

3701
03:30:28,440 --> 03:30:32,680
Speaker 12: throwing rocks and Border Patrol issued warnings, though this account

3702
03:30:32,720 --> 03:30:37,400
Speaker 12: is contradicted by video of the incident. US District Judge

3703
03:30:37,440 --> 03:30:41,160
Speaker 12: Sarah Ellis told the Border Patrol chief quote, kids dressed

3704
03:30:41,200 --> 03:30:44,720
Speaker 12: in Halloween costumes walking to a parade do not pose

3705
03:30:44,760 --> 03:30:48,280
Speaker 12: an immediate threat to the safety of law enforcement officers.

3706
03:30:48,320 --> 03:30:51,600
Speaker 12: They just don't, and you can't use riot control weapons

3707
03:30:51,600 --> 03:30:56,280
Speaker 12: against them. Unquote. This tro requires that crowd control munitions

3708
03:30:56,320 --> 03:30:58,480
Speaker 12: may only be used as someone pose as an immediate

3709
03:30:58,560 --> 03:31:02,080
Speaker 12: threat to law enforcement agents instructed to give two verbal

3710
03:31:02,080 --> 03:31:05,320
Speaker 12: warnings before tear gas pepper spray can be deployed, and

3711
03:31:05,440 --> 03:31:08,720
Speaker 12: to wear body cams, badges, or visible ideas. This order

3712
03:31:08,760 --> 03:31:11,520
Speaker 12: was issued on October ninth to get an idea of how

3713
03:31:11,560 --> 03:31:14,200
Speaker 12: closely this is being followed. Lavino himself still is not

3714
03:31:14,280 --> 03:31:17,800
Speaker 12: where a body cam and told Judge ellis quote, I

3715
03:31:17,840 --> 03:31:22,080
Speaker 12: have not received a body worn camera nor the training unquote.

3716
03:31:22,480 --> 03:31:22,680
Speaker 11: Yeah.

3717
03:31:23,200 --> 03:31:25,200
Speaker 1: Body of Troll agents have generally, just to give some

3718
03:31:25,200 --> 03:31:28,880
Speaker 1: context here, not worn body worn cameras for a number

3719
03:31:28,920 --> 03:31:31,640
Speaker 1: of reasons. Firstly, they just don't want to. Secondly, no

3720
03:31:31,720 --> 03:31:36,279
Speaker 1: one's making them. Thirdly, they believe that it is possible

3721
03:31:36,320 --> 03:31:39,920
Speaker 1: for people to detect the bluetooth signal that the camera

3722
03:31:40,040 --> 03:31:44,959
Speaker 1: gives out and thus find them. This is something that

3723
03:31:45,040 --> 03:31:48,240
Speaker 1: is theoretically possible as best my research can tell. You

3724
03:31:48,280 --> 03:31:50,199
Speaker 1: can make your own judgment as to which those factors

3725
03:31:50,280 --> 03:31:53,320
Speaker 1: is weighing most heavily on their choice not to wear them,

3726
03:31:53,360 --> 03:31:56,840
Speaker 1: but that they have never been required as a group

3727
03:31:57,080 --> 03:31:59,560
Speaker 1: to wear body worn cameras all the time.

3728
03:31:59,760 --> 03:32:02,520
Speaker 12: Now this judge is trying to force them to. They're

3729
03:32:02,640 --> 03:32:06,360
Speaker 12: just refusing to follow the order. Even despite Bavino saying

3730
03:32:06,400 --> 03:32:10,920
Speaker 12: that ninety nine percent of agents have these cameras, which

3731
03:32:10,959 --> 03:32:13,400
Speaker 12: is bizarrely specific claim.

3732
03:32:13,959 --> 03:32:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, is he the one percent?

3733
03:32:17,000 --> 03:32:23,160
Speaker 9: Like, I guess it's like he's just so obviously lying.

3734
03:32:23,240 --> 03:32:25,160
Speaker 9: It's just oh god.

3735
03:32:25,280 --> 03:32:27,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's just it's lying. We I think we

3736
03:32:28,040 --> 03:32:30,000
Speaker 1: that should be enough to say. Yeah, I don't know

3737
03:32:30,040 --> 03:32:31,640
Speaker 1: if I said they never wear them. To be clear,

3738
03:32:31,680 --> 03:32:35,800
Speaker 1: they have gone forward and back on wearing them. But

3739
03:32:35,840 --> 03:32:39,279
Speaker 1: it was earlier this year that the specific security risk.

3740
03:32:39,440 --> 03:32:41,760
Speaker 12: They have access to the cameras. Yes, yes, they're just

3741
03:32:41,760 --> 03:32:43,120
Speaker 12: refusing to follow this order.

3742
03:32:43,480 --> 03:32:43,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3743
03:32:44,120 --> 03:32:44,440
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3744
03:32:44,560 --> 03:32:44,760
Speaker 3: Now.

3745
03:32:45,200 --> 03:32:48,400
Speaker 12: The same complaint that alleged that Vino threw a canister

3746
03:32:48,520 --> 03:32:51,560
Speaker 12: with their justification into this crowd also details an incident

3747
03:32:51,600 --> 03:32:54,600
Speaker 12: from the next day, October twenty third, where agents without

3748
03:32:54,600 --> 03:32:58,199
Speaker 12: wearing identification as required by the order, shot a protester

3749
03:32:58,280 --> 03:33:00,720
Speaker 12: in the neck with pepperball from five feet away, and

3750
03:33:00,840 --> 03:33:04,320
Speaker 12: while driving away, pointed a pepper ball gun and I'm

3751
03:33:04,320 --> 03:33:07,000
Speaker 12: gonna read from the complaint quote and then a real

3752
03:33:07,080 --> 03:33:10,480
Speaker 12: gun at declarant Chris Gentry, a combat veteran who was

3753
03:33:10,560 --> 03:33:12,320
Speaker 12: lawfully standing on the side of the road voicing his

3754
03:33:12,360 --> 03:33:16,000
Speaker 12: opposition as agents were driving by in their vehicles. The

3755
03:33:16,120 --> 03:33:19,920
Speaker 12: agent who pointed the real gun at mister Gentry's face said,

3756
03:33:20,040 --> 03:33:27,520
Speaker 12: quote bang bang, you're dead liberal unquote great, cool, anyway,

3757
03:33:28,640 --> 03:33:32,320
Speaker 12: plaintifs have requested bodycam footage of this incident, which has

3758
03:33:32,400 --> 03:33:33,160
Speaker 12: yet to be provided.

3759
03:33:33,320 --> 03:33:34,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I think it's worth noting that, I mean,

3760
03:33:34,959 --> 03:33:37,800
Speaker 9: they do this every single time there is any kind

3761
03:33:37,800 --> 03:33:39,800
Speaker 9: of protest, they do stuff like this. They've been pointing

3762
03:33:39,800 --> 03:33:41,720
Speaker 9: guns at people the entire time they've been here.

3763
03:33:42,160 --> 03:33:44,960
Speaker 12: They've been putting a lot of guns the past few months,

3764
03:33:44,560 --> 03:33:46,039
Speaker 12: as we have reported.

3765
03:33:46,320 --> 03:33:46,959
Speaker 1: Yes they have.

3766
03:33:47,320 --> 03:33:49,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, they they kill people, two people.

3767
03:33:49,720 --> 03:33:51,800
Speaker 1: They've shot more than two people. Yeah.

3768
03:33:52,080 --> 03:33:52,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3769
03:33:52,920 --> 03:33:55,000
Speaker 12: Saying something like this is insane.

3770
03:33:55,200 --> 03:33:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah no. Yeah, it shows obviously like a complete lack

3771
03:33:58,959 --> 03:34:02,800
Speaker 1: of concern for accountabit right now, like like absolutely no

3772
03:34:02,920 --> 03:34:04,480
Speaker 1: thought that you could be held accountable for this.

3773
03:34:04,680 --> 03:34:08,720
Speaker 2: Yeah no, And it also shows a desire to kill liberally, yes, yeah,

3774
03:34:08,800 --> 03:34:10,720
Speaker 2: which liberals need to be aware of.

3775
03:34:10,800 --> 03:34:12,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah.

3776
03:34:12,920 --> 03:34:18,480
Speaker 2: You can't let this organization continue to exist, nor can

3777
03:34:18,560 --> 03:34:21,480
Speaker 2: you let the people doing this stay free. If you

3778
03:34:21,560 --> 03:34:25,160
Speaker 2: ever take power again, there has to be accountability, and

3779
03:34:25,240 --> 03:34:28,720
Speaker 2: there has to be an end to their ability, to

3780
03:34:29,040 --> 03:34:33,000
Speaker 2: the ability of any law enforcement agency to exist knowing

3781
03:34:33,040 --> 03:34:37,160
Speaker 2: that they are unaccountable and cannot be punished for the

3782
03:34:37,280 --> 03:34:39,199
Speaker 2: violence that they do to civilians.

3783
03:34:39,320 --> 03:34:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I'll take this point to mention that

3784
03:34:41,800 --> 03:34:47,840
Speaker 1: we've covered CBP and DHS's previous shootings in previous years

3785
03:34:48,000 --> 03:34:51,920
Speaker 1: and the internal review process they have for those, which

3786
03:34:51,959 --> 03:34:54,720
Speaker 1: has led to a lack of accountability even when compared

3787
03:34:54,760 --> 03:34:56,679
Speaker 1: to other law enforcement officers.

3788
03:34:57,080 --> 03:34:57,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3789
03:34:57,560 --> 03:35:01,240
Speaker 12: During this hearing this last Tuesday, the judge declined to

3790
03:35:01,440 --> 03:35:04,320
Speaker 12: alter the tier row to ban the use of tear

3791
03:35:04,360 --> 03:35:10,080
Speaker 12: gas completely, saying that she believes Baveno quote understands where

3792
03:35:10,080 --> 03:35:13,720
Speaker 12: I'm coming from. End quote. I don't know that we're

3793
03:35:13,760 --> 03:35:16,520
Speaker 12: gonna see a whole lot of tear gas being deployed

3794
03:35:16,560 --> 03:35:22,080
Speaker 12: over the next week. Unquote cool, great, amazing stuff, jumping

3795
03:35:22,080 --> 03:35:23,800
Speaker 12: out an our traditionary.

3796
03:35:23,840 --> 03:35:25,959
Speaker 1: Greg's picking up on the vibe. So we should be

3797
03:35:26,000 --> 03:35:26,560
Speaker 1: fine now.

3798
03:35:26,800 --> 03:35:31,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, this Buffdo guy seems incredibly trustworthy. Though Judge Ellis

3799
03:35:31,040 --> 03:35:35,520
Speaker 12: did instruct Blevino to meet with her every weekday evening

3800
03:35:35,600 --> 03:35:39,560
Speaker 12: throughout Operation Midway Blitz till the next hearing in November

3801
03:35:39,920 --> 03:35:44,160
Speaker 12: to provide instant briefings on use of force, though just

3802
03:35:44,240 --> 03:35:47,440
Speaker 12: one day later, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals blocked

3803
03:35:47,760 --> 03:35:52,520
Speaker 12: Judge Ellis's order requiring these daily reports. In some other

3804
03:35:52,600 --> 03:35:57,960
Speaker 12: Bovino mows Earlier this week, news broke that top ICE

3805
03:35:58,640 --> 03:36:02,359
Speaker 12: field office chief are set to be reassigned and replaced

3806
03:36:02,560 --> 03:36:06,879
Speaker 12: by senior Border Patrol and CBP officials with the goal

3807
03:36:06,920 --> 03:36:10,520
Speaker 12: of netting more arrests to boost deportation numbers.

3808
03:36:11,520 --> 03:36:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the role of Border Patrol Germany is into

3809
03:36:15,800 --> 03:36:19,040
Speaker 1: patrol the physical border and to do enforcement in that

3810
03:36:19,040 --> 03:36:22,720
Speaker 1: one hundred mile border zone. Right. Their role of ICE,

3811
03:36:22,959 --> 03:36:25,800
Speaker 1: the majority of ICE agents are not the people that

3812
03:36:25,879 --> 03:36:28,720
Speaker 1: you see out there, yea, jumping out of cars and

3813
03:36:29,080 --> 03:36:31,840
Speaker 1: doing these these smashing grabs. Right. The majority of ICE

3814
03:36:31,879 --> 03:36:33,800
Speaker 1: agents people who will work in the office, who will

3815
03:36:33,879 --> 03:36:37,680
Speaker 1: check in with migrants through their intensive supervision program, which

3816
03:36:37,720 --> 03:36:41,680
Speaker 1: is one of their quote unquote alternatives to detention. Right.

3817
03:36:42,120 --> 03:36:45,760
Speaker 1: Both of these agencies, you know, are relatively aligned with

3818
03:36:45,760 --> 03:36:49,879
Speaker 1: what I'll call like Donald Trump's agenda. But Border patrol

3819
03:36:49,920 --> 03:36:53,320
Speaker 1: particularly has made a name for itself, like Bevino himself

3820
03:36:53,320 --> 03:36:56,840
Speaker 1: and other Border Patrol chiefs were there was a time

3821
03:36:56,879 --> 03:36:58,200
Speaker 1: and it looked like they were going to force Veino

3822
03:36:58,280 --> 03:37:00,280
Speaker 1: to retire, and that time was twenty twenty three read

3823
03:37:01,440 --> 03:37:05,040
Speaker 1: briefing against it by an administration, Right, Brevino has been

3824
03:37:05,120 --> 03:37:09,480
Speaker 1: kind of particularly emblematic of this new border patrol approach,

3825
03:37:09,920 --> 03:37:14,039
Speaker 1: and it is particularly BP that has been aligned just

3826
03:37:14,280 --> 03:37:16,280
Speaker 1: with with a lot of things that you know, they had,

3827
03:37:16,320 --> 03:37:20,160
Speaker 1: they had issues getting people vaccinated, right like with this

3828
03:37:20,200 --> 03:37:24,000
Speaker 1: whole kind of political social media that is representative of

3829
03:37:24,080 --> 03:37:27,720
Speaker 1: the modern right we see with isoations. Like some of

3830
03:37:27,760 --> 03:37:30,320
Speaker 1: these people, I'm not going to say they joined like

3831
03:37:30,360 --> 03:37:32,520
Speaker 1: looking to help, you know, maybe like make the word

3832
03:37:32,520 --> 03:37:36,840
Speaker 1: actually a happy place, but like they they are reasonable

3833
03:37:36,879 --> 03:37:39,160
Speaker 1: civil servants, right Like, Like I've talked to plenty of

3834
03:37:39,200 --> 03:37:41,000
Speaker 1: migrants who have gone to there and you and you'll

3835
03:37:41,040 --> 03:37:43,160
Speaker 1: hear from some of them in a scripted series next month,

3836
03:37:43,640 --> 03:37:45,400
Speaker 1: gone to their ice check into been like, that was fine,

3837
03:37:45,440 --> 03:37:48,720
Speaker 1: that person was professional, that they seemed genuinely concerned for

3838
03:37:48,760 --> 03:37:53,000
Speaker 1: things I'm facing, and you know I was not unduly harassed,

3839
03:37:53,000 --> 03:37:54,800
Speaker 1: made to feel uncomfortable, et cetera, et cetera.

3840
03:37:55,160 --> 03:37:59,119
Speaker 12: Now the border patrol agents are like particularly brutal.

3841
03:37:59,240 --> 03:38:01,480
Speaker 1: I have not heard that's same. That was a reasonable

3842
03:38:01,480 --> 03:38:07,200
Speaker 1: professional about border patrol agents from migrants. Yeah, border patrol

3843
03:38:07,200 --> 03:38:09,959
Speaker 1: also has a pretty high churn, right as you know,

3844
03:38:10,000 --> 03:38:11,240
Speaker 1: so that they have a lot of people who have

3845
03:38:11,320 --> 03:38:13,720
Speaker 1: joined since let's say the first Trump admin.

3846
03:38:14,240 --> 03:38:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that may kind of change things because those

3847
03:38:17,760 --> 03:38:21,120
Speaker 2: people are joining specifically because they want to fuck with migrants.

3848
03:38:21,240 --> 03:38:25,279
Speaker 2: And while that's always been a thing for Border Patrol,

3849
03:38:25,760 --> 03:38:28,240
Speaker 2: a lot of people join the Border Patrol because it's

3850
03:38:28,320 --> 03:38:32,119
Speaker 2: the easiest way to become technically a federal agent. Yeah,

3851
03:38:32,160 --> 03:38:35,280
Speaker 2: and it can be a path to becoming a better

3852
03:38:35,440 --> 03:38:36,520
Speaker 2: kind of federal agent.

3853
03:38:36,800 --> 03:38:37,560
Speaker 1: Sure, you can be.

3854
03:38:37,600 --> 03:38:39,680
Speaker 2: A career thing, which is why part of why there's

3855
03:38:39,720 --> 03:38:41,400
Speaker 2: so much ch part of why.

3856
03:38:41,360 --> 03:38:43,880
Speaker 1: BP just to like characterize some of the issues the

3857
03:38:43,959 --> 03:38:47,359
Speaker 1: organization has had, right has consistently offered waivers the academic

3858
03:38:47,440 --> 03:38:50,520
Speaker 1: qualifications other agencies would not offer waivers for they have

3859
03:38:50,600 --> 03:38:53,760
Speaker 1: a problem, a serious problem with sexual assault, not just

3860
03:38:53,840 --> 03:38:56,959
Speaker 1: of migrants, but of women in the Border Patrol. They

3861
03:38:57,000 --> 03:38:59,000
Speaker 1: call the women in the Border Patrol the fierce five

3862
03:38:59,040 --> 03:39:01,800
Speaker 1: percent because this is an agency that has not succeeded

3863
03:39:01,920 --> 03:39:04,959
Speaker 1: in getting more than five percent of his agents to

3864
03:39:05,080 --> 03:39:09,280
Speaker 1: be women. Like it is an agency that has I

3865
03:39:09,320 --> 03:39:12,640
Speaker 1: guess for one of a better term radicalized, even even

3866
03:39:12,760 --> 03:39:14,560
Speaker 1: you know within DHS agencies.

3867
03:39:14,720 --> 03:39:17,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean all of the most brutal incidents have

3868
03:39:17,240 --> 03:39:19,920
Speaker 12: used forced in like Portland in twenty twenty that came

3869
03:39:19,959 --> 03:39:21,959
Speaker 12: from FEDS was Border Patrol.

3870
03:39:22,000 --> 03:39:26,360
Speaker 1: That was Bortech, Yeah, boord Tech. Yeah. I would encourage people,

3871
03:39:26,360 --> 03:39:27,760
Speaker 1: if they want to get a sense of how Border

3872
03:39:27,760 --> 03:39:31,000
Speaker 1: Patrol sees itself, to go to the social media page

3873
03:39:31,080 --> 03:39:34,720
Speaker 1: that Baveno curates and has created for a while to look.

3874
03:39:35,040 --> 03:39:37,879
Speaker 1: And again he was my understanding, like hemmed up for

3875
03:39:37,920 --> 03:39:40,400
Speaker 1: his social media posts in the Biden administration. He's obviously

3876
03:39:40,440 --> 03:39:42,879
Speaker 1: not being restrained in that way. Now, go and look

3877
03:39:42,920 --> 03:39:46,920
Speaker 1: at I think it's called Border Patrol Special Operations Command

3878
03:39:47,000 --> 03:39:49,640
Speaker 1: or DHS Special Operations Command, which includes Bortach. Go and

3879
03:39:49,640 --> 03:39:53,080
Speaker 1: look at their pages. Right, Like these guys they see

3880
03:39:53,120 --> 03:39:57,120
Speaker 1: themselves in the realm of like a military branch or

3881
03:39:57,120 --> 03:39:58,400
Speaker 1: a paramilitary police.

3882
03:39:58,560 --> 03:39:58,840
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3883
03:39:58,959 --> 03:40:01,880
Speaker 1: And and that is what they are doing in Chicago.

3884
03:40:02,320 --> 03:40:02,680
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3885
03:40:03,280 --> 03:40:05,360
Speaker 12: NBC is reporting that the White House has approved three

3886
03:40:05,360 --> 03:40:08,720
Speaker 12: assignment of at least a dozen directors of ice Field offices,

3887
03:40:09,200 --> 03:40:12,119
Speaker 12: with sources telling Fox News that the cities will include

3888
03:40:12,160 --> 03:40:17,720
Speaker 12: Los Angeles, Phoenix, Denver, Philadelphia, El Paso, San Diego, Seattle, Portland,

3889
03:40:17,800 --> 03:40:21,440
Speaker 12: and New Orleans. This is almost half of the ice

3890
03:40:21,480 --> 03:40:24,720
Speaker 12: Field offices in the country. This turnover is being orchestrated

3891
03:40:24,800 --> 03:40:30,240
Speaker 12: by DHS Secretary Christine Nome and DHS senior advisor Corey Lewandowski,

3892
03:40:31,080 --> 03:40:35,119
Speaker 12: with some of the replacements being hand picked by Bevino.

3893
03:40:35,720 --> 03:40:38,920
Speaker 12: This is like Bevino began to shape ICE how he

3894
03:40:39,040 --> 03:40:43,200
Speaker 12: sees fit using his border patrol like background, and these

3895
03:40:43,280 --> 03:40:47,920
Speaker 12: changes are reportedly motivated on differing views on tactics across

3896
03:40:48,040 --> 03:40:51,240
Speaker 12: agency leadership with the ICE strategy like the Tom Holman

3897
03:40:51,280 --> 03:40:55,440
Speaker 12: strategy of focusing on targeted removal of known criminals or

3898
03:40:55,480 --> 03:40:59,840
Speaker 12: immigrants with pre existing deputation orders versus the border patrol

3899
03:41:00,720 --> 03:41:04,040
Speaker 12: of doing these large sweeps and roundups around places like

3900
03:41:04,560 --> 03:41:08,800
Speaker 12: hom deepos, laundromats, restaurants, neighborhoods, urban centers.

3901
03:41:09,200 --> 03:41:11,480
Speaker 1: So Bavino like has been on this for a minute,

3902
03:41:11,520 --> 03:41:13,880
Speaker 1: right like, and I'm now realizing we need to cover

3903
03:41:14,000 --> 03:41:16,080
Speaker 1: his his career in more depth. But like I've seen this,

3904
03:41:16,240 --> 03:41:18,760
Speaker 1: Oh where did Bevino come from? Stuff? In twenty ten,

3905
03:41:19,080 --> 03:41:21,760
Speaker 1: when he was out of at the Blithe Border Patrol

3906
03:41:21,800 --> 03:41:26,160
Speaker 1: station I believe Blyza, California. For those not familiar, Bavino

3907
03:41:26,400 --> 03:41:29,640
Speaker 1: was part of a raid on bus and train stations

3908
03:41:29,640 --> 03:41:33,120
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas, right like, these these broader kind of

3909
03:41:33,200 --> 03:41:36,760
Speaker 1: dragnets have been something that he seems to have been

3910
03:41:36,760 --> 03:41:40,000
Speaker 1: a characteristic of his career, right, so that would make

3911
03:41:40,120 --> 03:41:42,880
Speaker 1: sense for him to be the guy advocating for this now.

3912
03:41:43,400 --> 03:41:47,240
Speaker 12: The official statement made by DHS Assistant Secretary Tricia McLaughlin

3913
03:41:47,560 --> 03:41:50,080
Speaker 12: at this point says, quote, while we have no personnel

3914
03:41:50,120 --> 03:41:52,800
Speaker 12: changes to announce at this time, the Romme administration remains

3915
03:41:52,840 --> 03:41:56,240
Speaker 12: laser focused on delivering results and removing violent criminal legal

3916
03:41:56,240 --> 03:41:59,240
Speaker 12: aliens from this country. And she followed up this statement

3917
03:41:59,280 --> 03:42:01,640
Speaker 12: with a tweet naming a whole bitch of people involved

3918
03:42:01,680 --> 03:42:05,480
Speaker 12: in all of these news stories, including Bavino and like,

3919
03:42:05,520 --> 03:42:09,240
Speaker 12: praising them for their patriotism. Let's take a look at

3920
03:42:09,240 --> 03:42:16,000
Speaker 12: two pictures of Boveto here for his courtroom attire. Who

3921
03:42:16,080 --> 03:42:18,840
Speaker 12: wants to describe what Bavito is wearing here?

3922
03:42:18,920 --> 03:42:20,360
Speaker 1: It looks like a statue of Stalin.

3923
03:42:20,920 --> 03:42:24,560
Speaker 2: He looks like a guy in the SS is dressing

3924
03:42:25,080 --> 03:42:27,280
Speaker 2: as a guy in the SS for Halloween.

3925
03:42:27,760 --> 03:42:30,880
Speaker 12: I don't think it's very Stalin. I think it's very German.

3926
03:42:31,000 --> 03:42:31,840
Speaker 9: N Actually, that.

3927
03:42:31,879 --> 03:42:35,959
Speaker 2: Is an ssque looking coat. I'm sorry, it's intense.

3928
03:42:36,000 --> 03:42:38,680
Speaker 12: He has the little is little stars on his collar

3929
03:42:39,040 --> 03:42:43,199
Speaker 12: and yeah, this this like boxy wool trench coat. It's

3930
03:42:43,360 --> 03:42:45,879
Speaker 12: very with the like shaved sides of his head. It's

3931
03:42:46,000 --> 03:42:48,760
Speaker 12: very clear what he is trying to evoke. This is

3932
03:42:48,760 --> 03:42:53,119
Speaker 12: a little bit koy, but like come on, come on, dude,

3933
03:42:53,680 --> 03:42:57,680
Speaker 12: and to follow this up, like DHS is really is

3934
03:42:57,720 --> 03:43:02,080
Speaker 12: really pushing Bavino now is like the face of this,

3935
03:43:02,080 --> 03:43:06,000
Speaker 12: this mass deportation push and they're making fucking like fash

3936
03:43:06,080 --> 03:43:10,160
Speaker 12: wave pype fash wave hype edit reels.

3937
03:43:09,840 --> 03:43:12,600
Speaker 1: Of show it. God it's mass.

3938
03:43:13,440 --> 03:43:15,959
Speaker 12: And I will I'll play the whole thing, but really

3939
03:43:16,000 --> 03:43:19,080
Speaker 12: it's the first two seconds that demonstrate what's what's going

3940
03:43:19,160 --> 03:43:19,560
Speaker 12: on here.

3941
03:43:19,879 --> 03:43:32,119
Speaker 1: This will be linked in the notes. I didn't realize

3942
03:43:32,160 --> 03:43:35,080
Speaker 1: it was Hampster Dance Coldplay on the soundtrack, Like I

3943
03:43:35,080 --> 03:43:36,200
Speaker 1: I had never listened to that.

3944
03:43:36,440 --> 03:43:38,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a choice.

3945
03:43:38,120 --> 03:43:40,879
Speaker 12: We're not gonna play much of that audio, garretson, We're

3946
03:43:40,879 --> 03:43:44,840
Speaker 12: gonna play we are not playing thirty seconds of copyrighted audio,

3947
03:43:44,920 --> 03:43:49,200
Speaker 12: but just the first literally the first two seconds of

3948
03:43:49,280 --> 03:43:52,840
Speaker 12: him doing what is very clearly a se kyle and

3949
03:43:52,879 --> 03:43:57,120
Speaker 12: then transferring it into like military hand signals, but like

3950
03:43:58,320 --> 03:44:01,720
Speaker 12: come on, dude, and then throughout throughout this the rest

3951
03:44:01,760 --> 03:44:04,640
Speaker 12: of the little fash wave edit, it's like pictures of

3952
03:44:04,720 --> 03:44:08,520
Speaker 12: him and his like uh, you know, tactical gear, and

3953
03:44:08,560 --> 03:44:11,040
Speaker 12: then pictures of him in what you I would describe

3954
03:44:11,080 --> 03:44:15,480
Speaker 12: as an SS inspired military dress uniform with the little

3955
03:44:15,520 --> 03:44:17,720
Speaker 12: you know, the stars, the trench code. It's like very

3956
03:44:17,760 --> 03:44:20,560
Speaker 12: clear what he's doing. The DHS Twitter account has been

3957
03:44:20,800 --> 03:44:24,119
Speaker 12: doing these little cute Nazi posts for a long time.

3958
03:44:24,200 --> 03:44:28,320
Speaker 12: Now they know what they're doing. It's yeah, but specifically

3959
03:44:28,520 --> 03:44:31,959
Speaker 12: this now being like the the new kind of face

3960
03:44:32,080 --> 03:44:35,200
Speaker 12: of this of this whole operation, both by playing a

3961
03:44:35,240 --> 03:44:38,440
Speaker 12: hand in restructuring the leadership of ICE and deploying to

3962
03:44:38,480 --> 03:44:41,120
Speaker 12: the forefront of paces like Chicago as he leads and

3963
03:44:41,200 --> 03:44:46,040
Speaker 12: orchestrates the mass deportation operation like Operation Midway Blitz like

3964
03:44:46,280 --> 03:44:53,280
Speaker 12: blitz really do blitz yest interesting, interesting, unfucking believable that

3965
03:44:53,360 --> 03:44:56,440
Speaker 12: the fact that this guy was not canned by any

3966
03:44:56,680 --> 03:45:01,600
Speaker 12: previous Democrat administration, like like about like abolishing ICE is

3967
03:45:01,600 --> 03:45:04,240
Speaker 12: is obviously like not enough here, because as we're talking

3968
03:45:04,320 --> 03:45:07,280
Speaker 12: about the way that like border patrols actually been the

3969
03:45:07,320 --> 03:45:10,720
Speaker 12: ones leading the most brutal of these raids, I think

3970
03:45:10,800 --> 03:45:14,160
Speaker 12: like there is a specific focus on like ICE because

3971
03:45:14,160 --> 03:45:16,680
Speaker 12: that's like a safer target. I get like it feels

3972
03:45:16,760 --> 03:45:19,800
Speaker 12: like because people know what you're talking about.

3973
03:45:19,280 --> 03:45:21,680
Speaker 2: All of DHS, we need to get rid of.

3974
03:45:22,600 --> 03:45:25,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, the fact that this guy wasn't fired is going

3975
03:45:25,840 --> 03:45:27,959
Speaker 9: to be looked back upon in the same way that

3976
03:45:28,040 --> 03:45:30,920
Speaker 9: like Allende promoting Pinochet is looked back on.

3977
03:45:32,600 --> 03:45:34,879
Speaker 1: Just yeah, yeah, it's.

3978
03:45:35,080 --> 03:45:38,520
Speaker 2: It's yeah, what how else do you describe it?

3979
03:45:38,879 --> 03:45:41,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like, if there was going to be a free country,

3980
03:45:41,920 --> 03:45:44,720
Speaker 9: all of this shit, all of the DHS agencies, all

3981
03:45:44,760 --> 03:45:47,160
Speaker 9: of this needs to cease to exist as a minimum,

3982
03:45:47,280 --> 03:45:48,879
Speaker 9: and these people need to be like haled in front

3983
03:45:48,920 --> 03:45:52,640
Speaker 9: of a neurobird tribunal, and that's that's the minimum viable.

3984
03:45:52,920 --> 03:45:54,680
Speaker 9: There might be a democracy after that.

3985
03:45:54,800 --> 03:45:56,439
Speaker 2: We need so many Neurembergs.

3986
03:45:57,560 --> 03:46:01,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And like it's not but I don't want

3987
03:46:01,160 --> 03:46:03,560
Speaker 1: to burn a bloat about this. It's not hard to

3988
03:46:03,600 --> 03:46:08,120
Speaker 1: have seen this coming. We have talked about this four years, right, Like, yeah,

3989
03:46:08,520 --> 03:46:13,120
Speaker 1: this began in the nineteen nineties with Operation Gatekeeper, Operation

3990
03:46:13,280 --> 03:46:18,000
Speaker 1: Hold the Line. We've documented this extensively. We've documented the

3991
03:46:18,000 --> 03:46:20,920
Speaker 1: fact that under the Biden administration there was virtually no oversight,

3992
03:46:21,000 --> 03:46:24,280
Speaker 1: right that they were able to detain people outdoors without food, water,

3993
03:46:24,400 --> 03:46:28,200
Speaker 1: or shelter and deny that those people were detained. This

3994
03:46:28,280 --> 03:46:31,280
Speaker 1: is all stuff that we've covered. If it wasn't in

3995
03:46:31,320 --> 03:46:34,640
Speaker 1: your news diet, then you should question the news sources

3996
03:46:34,640 --> 03:46:38,240
Speaker 1: that you were using. But like, it was very easy

3997
03:46:38,320 --> 03:46:41,080
Speaker 1: to see this coming, and as Mia said, very little

3998
03:46:41,160 --> 03:46:44,400
Speaker 1: was done to prevent it during the last four years yep.

3999
03:46:44,680 --> 03:46:49,600
Speaker 2: And somewhat more amusing news during the ongoing trial over

4000
03:46:50,440 --> 03:46:55,240
Speaker 2: the different federal agents deployed to Portland and the necessity

4001
03:46:55,360 --> 03:46:59,000
Speaker 2: of that federal deployment and potentially the mobilization of National

4002
03:46:59,000 --> 03:47:01,360
Speaker 2: Guard troops in Oregon being sent to Portland, which is

4003
03:47:01,400 --> 03:47:05,800
Speaker 2: still being fought over in the courts. Portland police were

4004
03:47:05,959 --> 03:47:09,720
Speaker 2: brought up on the stand and testified that during one

4005
03:47:10,000 --> 03:47:14,680
Speaker 2: night out at Ice, federal officers gassed Portland police and

4006
03:47:14,720 --> 03:47:18,640
Speaker 2: fired pepper balls at one officer. And when Portland Police

4007
03:47:18,680 --> 03:47:22,440
Speaker 2: confronted federal not ice, sorry but these are these are

4008
03:47:22,520 --> 03:47:24,720
Speaker 2: federal FPS agents outside of the ICE building.

4009
03:47:24,800 --> 03:47:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

4010
03:47:25,080 --> 03:47:29,480
Speaker 2: And when Portland Police confronted the FPS agents afterwards, they

4011
03:47:29,560 --> 03:47:31,400
Speaker 2: responded help or get out of the way.

4012
03:47:32,360 --> 03:47:32,560
Speaker 4: Uh.

4013
03:47:32,600 --> 03:47:35,080
Speaker 2: And this is simply there's no actually, there's no there's

4014
03:47:35,080 --> 03:47:38,520
Speaker 2: no rules of engagement, right, rules of engagement for you know,

4015
03:47:38,760 --> 03:47:41,480
Speaker 2: soldiers in the like are supposed to be stuff like

4016
03:47:41,680 --> 03:47:47,959
Speaker 2: you don't fire until a certain standard of danger exists. Right,

4017
03:47:48,120 --> 03:47:51,080
Speaker 2: you don't. There are rules at which point you are

4018
03:47:51,120 --> 03:47:54,840
Speaker 2: allowed to engage with which kinds of weapons, right your

4019
03:47:55,000 --> 03:47:58,360
Speaker 2: r Oh, we may say one thing about using a

4020
03:47:58,480 --> 03:48:01,600
Speaker 2: night stick or and it will say something else about

4021
03:48:01,680 --> 03:48:04,600
Speaker 2: using dear gas or whatever. There's no actual ro for

4022
03:48:04,640 --> 03:48:07,039
Speaker 2: these guys. They're allowed to just kind of fire whenever

4023
03:48:07,080 --> 03:48:10,119
Speaker 2: they want, and they're not well trained. They're not very

4024
03:48:10,160 --> 03:48:12,360
Speaker 2: good at what they do. Most of them have not

4025
03:48:12,480 --> 03:48:14,520
Speaker 2: actually had the kind of draining I've been supposed to

4026
03:48:14,520 --> 03:48:16,920
Speaker 2: have with these weapons systems they're using, and they're just

4027
03:48:17,000 --> 03:48:18,840
Speaker 2: kind of firing willy and illy, which is why they've

4028
03:48:18,879 --> 03:48:20,120
Speaker 2: been heading cops repeatedly.

4029
03:48:20,640 --> 03:48:24,040
Speaker 1: Most FS agents are contractors. They're not full time law

4030
03:48:24,080 --> 03:48:24,920
Speaker 1: enforcement officers.

4031
03:48:25,280 --> 03:48:25,480
Speaker 3: Right.

4032
03:48:26,480 --> 03:48:31,320
Speaker 1: Talking of things that it would have been easy to

4033
03:48:31,400 --> 03:48:35,760
Speaker 1: see coming, I want to talk about ICE's facial recognition app.

4034
03:48:36,240 --> 03:48:39,400
Speaker 1: So I've seen a piece of four four media. Four

4035
03:48:39,400 --> 03:48:41,240
Speaker 1: and four media is the most annoying outlet to read

4036
03:48:41,280 --> 03:48:43,880
Speaker 1: pieces in because they will send you seventeen emails a day.

4037
03:48:44,360 --> 03:48:47,080
Speaker 1: Four A form media suggests that ICE is claiming a

4038
03:48:47,480 --> 03:48:51,240
Speaker 1: facial recognition match in its app mobile Fortify is a

4039
03:48:51,240 --> 03:48:56,320
Speaker 1: definitive determination of somebody's status. They're quoting here the ranking

4040
03:48:56,360 --> 03:48:59,120
Speaker 1: member of the House Home Land Security Committee, Benny G. Thompson,

4041
03:48:59,200 --> 03:49:02,480
Speaker 1: as saying, quote mobile Fortify is a dangerous tool in

4042
03:49:02,480 --> 03:49:04,800
Speaker 1: the hands of ICE, and it puts American citizens a

4043
03:49:04,920 --> 03:49:08,600
Speaker 1: risk of detention and even deportation. He also said that

4044
03:49:08,680 --> 03:49:12,000
Speaker 1: quote ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric

4045
03:49:12,040 --> 03:49:15,120
Speaker 1: match by mobile fortifier is a definitive determination of a

4046
03:49:15,160 --> 03:49:19,600
Speaker 1: person's status, and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence

4047
03:49:19,600 --> 03:49:24,360
Speaker 1: of American citizenship, including a birth certificate, if the app

4048
03:49:24,400 --> 03:49:27,840
Speaker 1: says the person is an alien. ICE using a mobile

4049
03:49:27,840 --> 03:49:30,760
Speaker 1: biometrics app in this way, in ways its developers at

4050
03:49:30,800 --> 03:49:34,200
Speaker 1: CBP never intended or tested, is a frightening, repugnant, and

4051
03:49:34,280 --> 03:49:39,600
Speaker 1: unconstitutional attack on Americans rights and freedoms. Thompson is misguided

4052
03:49:39,720 --> 03:49:44,240
Speaker 1: if he thinks that like this is new, it is new,

4053
03:49:44,280 --> 03:49:49,120
Speaker 1: and that's that its impacted US citizens. Yes, this article,

4054
03:49:49,360 --> 03:49:53,440
Speaker 1: for reasons I cannot explain, does not mention CBP one right,

4055
03:49:53,560 --> 03:49:56,520
Speaker 1: and as is often the case some immigration reporting that

4056
03:49:56,560 --> 03:50:00,880
Speaker 1: we see now, it's completely lacking in context. The context

4057
03:50:00,880 --> 03:50:02,880
Speaker 1: here is at CBP one is an app developed in

4058
03:50:02,920 --> 03:50:06,880
Speaker 1: the first Trump administration. It's often referred to as a

4059
03:50:06,920 --> 03:50:10,000
Speaker 1: Biden app because the definitive political question of our time

4060
03:50:10,480 --> 03:50:12,640
Speaker 1: is who was present in twenty twenty.

4061
03:50:13,120 --> 03:50:14,120
Speaker 12: There's just no way to know.

4062
03:50:14,240 --> 03:50:17,200
Speaker 2: It's impossible to say you can't do data on anything

4063
03:50:17,240 --> 03:50:18,320
Speaker 2: happening that far back.

4064
03:50:20,000 --> 03:50:22,320
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I have a new one which is more recent,

4065
03:50:22,440 --> 03:50:23,800
Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about next.

4066
03:50:24,360 --> 03:50:25,640
Speaker 12: Groc This is real.

4067
03:50:27,280 --> 03:50:33,040
Speaker 1: But CBP one was effectively determinative for migrants, right. We've

4068
03:50:33,080 --> 03:50:36,840
Speaker 1: covered this in great detail here. There were some public

4069
03:50:36,880 --> 03:50:41,400
Speaker 1: records about CBP one that I've looked at extensively. There's

4070
03:50:41,440 --> 03:50:43,440
Speaker 1: sort of too long didn't read. Version is app did

4071
03:50:43,440 --> 03:50:46,680
Speaker 1: not work well on Android phones, especially previous generation Android phones,

4072
03:50:46,680 --> 03:50:50,360
Speaker 1: which are very common among people coming from the Global South.

4073
03:50:50,920 --> 03:50:53,840
Speaker 1: The facial liveness scan. So what the facial liveness scan

4074
03:50:54,000 --> 03:50:57,800
Speaker 1: does is that let's say Robert is coming to the US, right,

4075
03:50:58,320 --> 03:51:01,320
Speaker 1: they wanted to check that the phone is being held

4076
03:51:01,360 --> 03:51:03,840
Speaker 1: by Robert, that it's not been held someone's not holding

4077
03:51:03,920 --> 03:51:06,160
Speaker 1: up a photograph of Robert in front of the camera, right,

4078
03:51:06,560 --> 03:51:08,920
Speaker 1: So you sort of move it around. Then it determines

4079
03:51:08,920 --> 03:51:12,600
Speaker 1: that it's a real three D face, not a photograph.

4080
03:51:12,760 --> 03:51:17,240
Speaker 1: It really struggled with black faces. I've seen this firsthand.

4081
03:51:17,280 --> 03:51:19,600
Speaker 2: I've all this stuff does that's the same thing with

4082
03:51:19,720 --> 03:51:24,000
Speaker 2: like how there have been like motion activated fossets and

4083
03:51:24,040 --> 03:51:26,360
Speaker 2: stuff that wouldn't recognize dark scale.

4084
03:51:26,440 --> 03:51:28,080
Speaker 1: It's a data set that they put in right to

4085
03:51:28,120 --> 03:51:32,360
Speaker 1: my understand Yeah, the results of those scans were determinative

4086
03:51:32,560 --> 03:51:35,400
Speaker 1: for migrants, right. It could determine their ability to make

4087
03:51:35,440 --> 03:51:38,360
Speaker 1: an asylum appointment and therefore to enter the US and

4088
03:51:38,400 --> 03:51:41,800
Speaker 1: make a claim for asylum. This caused people to remain

4089
03:51:41,840 --> 03:51:44,800
Speaker 1: in various very dangerous situations. It has probably led to

4090
03:51:44,840 --> 03:51:49,040
Speaker 1: people dying. It's another example of why we have to

4091
03:51:49,040 --> 03:51:50,920
Speaker 1: pay attention to the border if you want to know

4092
03:51:50,960 --> 03:51:54,600
Speaker 1: what's coming down the pipe domestically, and talking of shit

4093
03:51:54,680 --> 03:51:57,320
Speaker 1: that is coming down the pipe from the border domestically.

4094
03:51:57,720 --> 03:52:01,800
Speaker 1: I want to talk about public lands again because Utah

4095
03:52:01,920 --> 03:52:05,720
Speaker 1: Senator Mike Lee is back on his bullshit. This time

4096
03:52:05,760 --> 03:52:08,600
Speaker 1: he has another bill. People will remember that Mike Lee

4097
03:52:08,720 --> 03:52:12,040
Speaker 1: tried to insert in the budget reconciliation bill a massive

4098
03:52:12,120 --> 03:52:15,760
Speaker 1: sell off of public lands, right. And what Lee does

4099
03:52:15,880 --> 03:52:19,280
Speaker 1: is he uses whatever terminology he thinks will make people

4100
03:52:19,400 --> 03:52:24,280
Speaker 1: support this crusade he has against land zone by the

4101
03:52:24,320 --> 03:52:27,040
Speaker 1: public for if we want to access In the last time,

4102
03:52:27,080 --> 03:52:29,240
Speaker 1: he tried to wrap it up a language about affordable housing.

4103
03:52:29,240 --> 03:52:30,920
Speaker 1: If you read the bill, you would have seen that

4104
03:52:31,000 --> 03:52:34,240
Speaker 1: there wasn't going to result in any affordable housing. This time,

4105
03:52:34,280 --> 03:52:36,840
Speaker 1: he's wrapping it up in the language of border security.

4106
03:52:37,400 --> 03:52:39,680
Speaker 1: And this is where I'm where We're going to return

4107
03:52:39,720 --> 03:52:43,120
Speaker 1: to the defining political question of our time. Who is President?

4108
03:52:43,800 --> 03:52:46,320
Speaker 1: Because Lee, who introduced the bell in October of twenty

4109
03:52:46,360 --> 03:52:50,400
Speaker 1: twenty five, said, and I quote, Biden's open border chaos

4110
03:52:50,440 --> 03:52:54,800
Speaker 1: is destroying American's crown jewels. Families who want to enjoy

4111
03:52:54,840 --> 03:52:58,440
Speaker 1: a safe hike or camp out are instead finding trash piles,

4112
03:52:58,720 --> 03:53:02,440
Speaker 1: burned landscapes, and trails closed because rangers are stuck clearing

4113
03:53:02,520 --> 03:53:05,960
Speaker 1: up the fallout cartails are exploding their disorder, using these

4114
03:53:06,040 --> 03:53:08,760
Speaker 1: lands as cover for their operation. This bill GIFs land

4115
03:53:08,760 --> 03:53:12,240
Speaker 1: managers and border agents the tools to restore order and

4116
03:53:12,240 --> 03:53:15,040
Speaker 1: protect these places for the people they were meant to serve.

4117
03:53:16,160 --> 03:53:18,960
Speaker 1: Diligent observers will notice that Biden is no longer the

4118
03:53:18,960 --> 03:53:24,120
Speaker 1: president of the United States, and further diligent observers will

4119
03:53:24,160 --> 03:53:27,480
Speaker 1: notice that many people currently working for the federal government

4120
03:53:27,680 --> 03:53:30,960
Speaker 1: on public lands are being laid off or furloughed due

4121
03:53:31,000 --> 03:53:35,280
Speaker 1: to the government shutdown. What Lee's bill would do is

4122
03:53:35,360 --> 03:53:41,320
Speaker 1: allow dhs to identify illegal roads in public land areas

4123
03:53:41,760 --> 03:53:45,840
Speaker 1: and then to upgrade them to navigable roads. This is

4124
03:53:45,880 --> 03:53:48,800
Speaker 1: important because the nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act doesn't allow

4125
03:53:48,880 --> 03:53:53,040
Speaker 1: motorized access to wilderness areas, and what Lee is proposing

4126
03:53:53,280 --> 03:53:56,480
Speaker 1: is that they would identify these illegal roads within one

4127
03:53:56,520 --> 03:54:02,640
Speaker 1: hundred mile zone. But he is proposing a blanket change

4128
03:54:02,760 --> 03:54:04,920
Speaker 1: to the nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act to allow the

4129
03:54:04,960 --> 03:54:09,080
Speaker 1: construction of roads, which would completely change the nature of

4130
03:54:09,080 --> 03:54:13,000
Speaker 1: wilderness in the United States. And sometimes a sliperslow argument

4131
03:54:13,040 --> 03:54:15,120
Speaker 1: can also be a fallacy, but in this case, building

4132
03:54:15,160 --> 03:54:18,760
Speaker 1: roads into the wilderness will permanently change the nature of

4133
03:54:18,760 --> 03:54:22,200
Speaker 1: their wilderness and will lead to other losses of protection

4134
03:54:22,520 --> 03:54:26,720
Speaker 1: on public land. Lee makes the argument that it's important

4135
03:54:26,720 --> 03:54:30,160
Speaker 1: for search and rescue and for border access. There is

4136
03:54:30,240 --> 03:54:34,520
Speaker 1: already mechanized access for search and rescue. They give search

4137
03:54:34,560 --> 03:54:38,400
Speaker 1: and rescue helicopters, for instance, can access wilderness areas that

4138
03:54:38,480 --> 03:54:41,800
Speaker 1: they have agreements in place with land management agencies which

4139
03:54:41,840 --> 03:54:43,800
Speaker 1: allow them to do this already when there is a

4140
03:54:43,880 --> 03:54:47,600
Speaker 1: risk to human life. The bill also talks about removing

4141
03:54:47,760 --> 03:54:51,840
Speaker 1: invasive species and reducing fire risk by removing fire fuels

4142
03:54:51,880 --> 03:54:56,000
Speaker 1: down by the border. Again, I'm guessing what this would

4143
03:54:56,080 --> 03:54:58,880
Speaker 1: do would be This would I mean if you fire

4144
03:54:58,880 --> 03:55:01,840
Speaker 1: fuels like look at the souther border near where I live, right,

4145
03:55:01,920 --> 03:55:05,520
Speaker 1: like think of the California sage brush chaparral. Like, clearing

4146
03:55:05,640 --> 03:55:09,880
Speaker 1: fire fuels there would completely change that landscape forever. It

4147
03:55:09,920 --> 03:55:13,200
Speaker 1: would remove much of the value that this wilderness has

4148
03:55:13,720 --> 03:55:16,320
Speaker 1: not as untouched. Right, people have lived in this area

4149
03:55:16,400 --> 03:55:19,080
Speaker 1: for tenths of thousands of years, and that they have

4150
03:55:19,240 --> 03:55:21,480
Speaker 1: touched that nature, and they have lived alongside it and

4151
03:55:21,520 --> 03:55:23,800
Speaker 1: worked with it. But it is an area that is

4152
03:55:23,840 --> 03:55:29,240
Speaker 1: significantly less damaged than most of the United States.

4153
03:55:29,400 --> 03:55:29,560
Speaker 3: Right.

4154
03:55:30,280 --> 03:55:35,440
Speaker 1: The bill would also inventory fires and damage to wilderness

4155
03:55:35,480 --> 03:55:38,640
Speaker 1: caused by migrants. I guess this is just an attempt

4156
03:55:38,680 --> 03:55:42,200
Speaker 1: to say another bad thing about migrants. It also prohibits

4157
03:55:42,240 --> 03:55:45,800
Speaker 1: any housing of migrants on federal lands unless it is

4158
03:55:45,840 --> 03:55:50,280
Speaker 1: in a prison. It's Lee taking this border hawk stuff

4159
03:55:50,760 --> 03:55:52,920
Speaker 1: and trapping it onto this crusade that he has been

4160
03:55:52,920 --> 03:55:56,240
Speaker 1: on for a long time to deprive people in the

4161
03:55:56,320 --> 03:55:59,000
Speaker 1: United States and people visiting the United States have access

4162
03:55:59,040 --> 03:56:02,080
Speaker 1: to their public lands and eventually to sell those lands

4163
03:56:02,120 --> 03:56:05,480
Speaker 1: off to the highest bidder. He introduced it on October second.

4164
03:56:05,520 --> 03:56:08,840
Speaker 1: It's in the committee stage right now. This probably is

4165
03:56:08,880 --> 03:56:12,960
Speaker 1: one of the things that folks could call a representative

4166
03:56:13,000 --> 03:56:16,720
Speaker 1: about and suggest it's a very bad idea. Talking to

4167
03:56:16,760 --> 03:56:19,680
Speaker 1: bad ideas. My daughter has announced the formation of an

4168
03:56:19,680 --> 03:56:24,800
Speaker 1: international brigade to defend his incredibly corrupt regime in Venezuela.

4169
03:56:25,040 --> 03:56:27,200
Speaker 1: I say this is someone who has been to Venezuela

4170
03:56:27,560 --> 03:56:31,360
Speaker 1: and written a PhD about the Spanish Civil War. This

4171
03:56:31,400 --> 03:56:34,360
Speaker 1: is a very bad idea. Don't do this.

4172
03:56:34,040 --> 03:56:34,320
Speaker 17: This is.

4173
03:56:35,880 --> 03:56:39,120
Speaker 1: Maduro does not need your help. Fuck that guy talking

4174
03:56:39,160 --> 03:56:49,240
Speaker 1: of things that don't need your help. Here are some adverts.

4175
03:56:55,080 --> 03:56:58,280
Speaker 12: I can't believe you're throwing the People's Republic of Venezuela

4176
03:56:58,360 --> 03:57:01,760
Speaker 12: under the bus like that, as there facing down war

4177
03:57:02,400 --> 03:57:04,560
Speaker 12: with the United States of America.

4178
03:57:04,200 --> 03:57:06,960
Speaker 1: Right now, standing in the breach against imperialism. Yeah, I

4179
03:57:06,960 --> 03:57:07,680
Speaker 1: read a lot about it.

4180
03:57:07,840 --> 03:57:10,240
Speaker 12: What happened? Does hashtag solidarity? Jane?

4181
03:57:10,840 --> 03:57:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I read about it on the Gray Zone

4182
03:57:12,600 --> 03:57:16,080
Speaker 1: and I'm changing my opinions, having spent more time than

4183
03:57:16,160 --> 03:57:18,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure half the staff the Gray Zone in Venezuela.

4184
03:57:18,920 --> 03:57:21,840
Speaker 9: Speaking of Spooky, the ship Trump's getting is part of

4185
03:57:21,920 --> 03:57:23,760
Speaker 9: terraff negotiations who.

4186
03:57:28,800 --> 03:57:38,800
Speaker 21: Jazz, jazz rock, jazz rock, jazz bo.

4187
03:57:40,880 --> 03:57:43,840
Speaker 9: All right, So, as we talked about last week, Trump

4188
03:57:44,160 --> 03:57:48,080
Speaker 9: has been in East Asia to do a bunch of

4189
03:57:48,120 --> 03:57:53,000
Speaker 9: meetings for conversations already happening. And this is where terrificagotiations

4190
03:57:53,080 --> 03:57:55,160
Speaker 9: have been being handled. This has been being held in

4191
03:57:55,200 --> 03:57:59,800
Speaker 9: South Korea. South Korean President Lee JM Young presented Trump

4192
03:57:59,840 --> 03:58:02,520
Speaker 9: with South Korea's highest honor and also gave him a

4193
03:58:02,600 --> 03:58:06,880
Speaker 9: giant golden crown. Have you all seen the giant golden crowd?

4194
03:58:06,920 --> 03:58:10,040
Speaker 12: It's that easy, folks. All you gotta do, it's all

4195
03:58:10,040 --> 03:58:13,440
Speaker 12: you gotta do is just these little stupid things, and

4196
03:58:13,480 --> 03:58:14,560
Speaker 12: then he loves.

4197
03:58:14,280 --> 03:58:17,240
Speaker 9: You, giant gilded crowd.

4198
03:58:17,480 --> 03:58:19,600
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the crown. I'm gonna look at the crown.

4199
03:58:20,320 --> 03:58:23,720
Speaker 9: Look up the crowd. I am beseeching you all yet.

4200
03:58:23,800 --> 03:58:27,320
Speaker 9: I however, big you think this crown is? It is

4201
03:58:27,600 --> 03:58:29,520
Speaker 9: way larger than that it is.

4202
03:58:29,800 --> 03:58:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, no, it's Jesus wow.

4203
03:58:36,240 --> 03:58:38,840
Speaker 9: It's like the size of all fire hydran. Yeah.

4204
03:58:38,600 --> 03:58:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe they directly they directly took the one that

4205
03:58:42,880 --> 03:58:45,040
Speaker 1: they took from Prince Andrew for being a nonse and

4206
03:58:45,080 --> 03:58:45,800
Speaker 1: melted it down.

4207
03:58:48,120 --> 03:58:51,880
Speaker 9: It's really something now, now, Lee J. Meung is a

4208
03:58:51,960 --> 03:58:55,360
Speaker 9: name you might recognize because he's the guy who was

4209
03:58:55,400 --> 03:58:57,800
Speaker 9: famous for that video of climbing over the fence to

4210
03:58:57,800 --> 03:59:00,040
Speaker 9: stop the coup last year. And one year later he

4211
03:59:00,120 --> 03:59:02,920
Speaker 9: is giving Trump what I think might be the largest

4212
03:59:02,920 --> 03:59:05,960
Speaker 9: crown I have ever seen. Now, this crown is being

4213
03:59:06,000 --> 03:59:09,240
Speaker 9: described as quote a gilded replica. So I don't know

4214
03:59:09,280 --> 03:59:12,680
Speaker 9: how much of this is actually gold. I suspect it's

4215
03:59:13,080 --> 03:59:15,600
Speaker 9: gold paint or whatever. I don't know. I do not

4216
03:59:15,720 --> 03:59:19,680
Speaker 9: have confirmation on it. But you know, great great things

4217
03:59:19,720 --> 03:59:23,400
Speaker 9: happening in sort of like a revolutionary anti coup movement

4218
03:59:23,760 --> 03:59:28,200
Speaker 9: which has giving Trump the giant golden crown. Yeah, and

4219
03:59:28,240 --> 03:59:31,360
Speaker 9: apparently and they got like a kind of favorable, sort

4220
03:59:31,440 --> 03:59:35,520
Speaker 9: of okay ish kind of trade dealt out of out

4221
03:59:35,560 --> 03:59:38,800
Speaker 9: of giving the President of the United States giant golden crown. So,

4222
03:59:39,000 --> 03:59:44,600
Speaker 9: in terms of tariff news, while in China, Trump had

4223
03:59:44,640 --> 03:59:48,720
Speaker 9: his long awaited beating Lustijian Ping, they struck a deal.

4224
03:59:49,040 --> 03:59:52,800
Speaker 9: Trump decreased the quote unquote fence andyl tariffs to ten percent,

4225
03:59:53,440 --> 03:59:55,600
Speaker 9: which leaves the teriff right for all Chinese goods at

4226
03:59:55,600 --> 03:59:58,960
Speaker 9: forty seven percent, down from its previous fifty seven percent.

4227
03:59:59,400 --> 04:00:02,400
Speaker 9: China has a reed to not do Rare Earth's mineral

4228
04:00:02,440 --> 04:00:05,400
Speaker 9: restrictions that we talked about last week, and has also

4229
04:00:05,440 --> 04:00:08,920
Speaker 9: pledged by US soybeans. Again, it's deeply unclear how much

4230
04:00:08,920 --> 04:00:11,880
Speaker 9: of this is actually going to happen. I think my

4231
04:00:12,200 --> 04:00:16,160
Speaker 9: guess is that they probably won't do the harshest of

4232
04:00:16,200 --> 04:00:20,000
Speaker 9: the mineral restrictions, but I will believe the soybean purchases

4233
04:00:20,000 --> 04:00:21,760
Speaker 9: when I see it, and I haven't seen it yet.

4234
04:00:22,920 --> 04:00:25,240
Speaker 9: There's also been some interesting US out of the Senate

4235
04:00:25,280 --> 04:00:27,880
Speaker 9: where there's been a couple of symbolic votes against some

4236
04:00:27,960 --> 04:00:31,120
Speaker 9: sets of tariffs. The Senate voted fifty to forty six

4237
04:00:31,200 --> 04:00:34,120
Speaker 9: to end the state of emergency that supposedly allows Trump

4238
04:00:34,120 --> 04:00:36,320
Speaker 9: to do the Canada tariffs, and also voted to block

4239
04:00:36,360 --> 04:00:40,040
Speaker 9: tariffs against Brazil. The four people who voted against both

4240
04:00:40,080 --> 04:00:44,800
Speaker 9: of these, who voted with the Democrats are Mitch McConnell,

4241
04:00:45,480 --> 04:00:49,040
Speaker 9: Rand Paul, Susan Collins, and Lisa Morowski. Which it kind

4242
04:00:49,040 --> 04:00:51,040
Speaker 9: of makes sense because Collins and Morowski are supposed to

4243
04:00:51,080 --> 04:00:56,200
Speaker 9: lead the two moderates. Rand Paul is like just hates tariffs. Yeah,

4244
04:00:56,320 --> 04:00:59,600
Speaker 9: he's a free trade hardliner who whenever I talk about this,

4245
04:00:59,640 --> 04:01:01,960
Speaker 9: I will say he has had as much as all

4246
04:01:02,000 --> 04:01:05,000
Speaker 9: of this is his fault, he has had one great light, ever,

4247
04:01:05,120 --> 04:01:07,480
Speaker 9: which is I have a trade deficit with my grocery store.

4248
04:01:09,800 --> 04:01:11,000
Speaker 9: Actually really good.

4249
04:01:11,840 --> 04:01:14,880
Speaker 12: Is he like an Austrian like economists, like libertarian type,

4250
04:01:14,920 --> 04:01:17,080
Speaker 12: Like I know he's like a libertarian guy. I'm just

4251
04:01:17,080 --> 04:01:19,160
Speaker 12: trying to figure out what specific flavor.

4252
04:01:19,440 --> 04:01:21,440
Speaker 9: He's like an he's like one of the Austrian like

4253
04:01:21,640 --> 04:01:24,520
Speaker 9: gold standards, but also like those people are still free

4254
04:01:24,520 --> 04:01:26,640
Speaker 9: trade people, like really hardline.

4255
04:01:26,760 --> 04:01:29,040
Speaker 12: Last time I heard Charlie Kirk talk in person, he

4256
04:01:29,120 --> 04:01:35,880
Speaker 12: was debating like five Austrian economists the most annoying people mean.

4257
04:01:35,800 --> 04:01:39,880
Speaker 2: To Like, honestly, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. That

4258
04:01:39,960 --> 04:01:43,240
Speaker 2: sounds like that sounds like why would you agree to

4259
04:01:43,280 --> 04:01:46,440
Speaker 2: do that, especially if you're already rich. I don't understand that.

4260
04:01:46,600 --> 04:01:47,800
Speaker 2: I don't understand it.

4261
04:01:50,080 --> 04:01:52,800
Speaker 9: Now, Okay, it's just also word doating though that despite

4262
04:01:52,800 --> 04:01:54,760
Speaker 9: these votes, none of this is going to take effect

4263
04:01:54,760 --> 04:01:57,880
Speaker 9: because the House right now effectively does not exist as.

4264
04:01:57,800 --> 04:01:59,720
Speaker 2: A legislative body.

4265
04:02:00,240 --> 04:02:03,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, it doesn't exist in general because they keep not

4266
04:02:03,600 --> 04:02:06,160
Speaker 9: calling sessions because every time they try to call a session,

4267
04:02:06,160 --> 04:02:09,480
Speaker 9: the Democrats in the one political theater thing that like

4268
04:02:10,720 --> 04:02:12,600
Speaker 9: is kind of a good idea, but they're so bad

4269
04:02:12,640 --> 04:02:14,640
Speaker 9: at it. They keep being like, you have to release

4270
04:02:14,680 --> 04:02:17,080
Speaker 9: the Epstein files, and the Republicans keep being like, no,

4271
04:02:17,200 --> 04:02:19,240
Speaker 9: so we kind of don't have a House of Representatives.

4272
04:02:19,360 --> 04:02:22,440
Speaker 2: I keep thinking about that one scene from Mars Attacks

4273
04:02:22,480 --> 04:02:24,840
Speaker 2: with the presidents, like, you've still got two out of

4274
04:02:24,880 --> 04:02:27,200
Speaker 2: three branches a government, and that ain't bad.

4275
04:02:28,120 --> 04:02:32,720
Speaker 12: Yeah, we basically have one branch of government.

4276
04:02:32,760 --> 04:02:34,560
Speaker 9: We have one branch of Yeah, we have one branch

4277
04:02:34,600 --> 04:02:35,720
Speaker 9: of governments, and like.

4278
04:02:35,760 --> 04:02:37,840
Speaker 2: But that doesn't work as a Mars Attacks Joe.

4279
04:02:38,480 --> 04:02:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

4280
04:02:39,080 --> 04:02:41,760
Speaker 9: But and also it's worth noting the House voted to

4281
04:02:41,960 --> 04:02:45,240
Speaker 9: not allow any tariff legislation until March twenty twenty six,

4282
04:02:45,360 --> 04:02:48,160
Speaker 9: a thing that it could apparently do. It is totally normal.

4283
04:02:48,360 --> 04:02:50,000
Speaker 1: Sure, Oh well, yeah, you.

4284
04:02:49,920 --> 04:02:51,640
Speaker 9: Know so, and speak of things are totally normal. We're

4285
04:02:51,640 --> 04:02:56,160
Speaker 9: gonna close this with Trump getting mad at Canada because

4286
04:02:56,160 --> 04:02:58,120
Speaker 9: we saw an ad they were running, Oh my god,

4287
04:02:58,240 --> 04:03:01,800
Speaker 9: yeah series that God it was.

4288
04:03:01,840 --> 04:03:02,000
Speaker 12: It was.

4289
04:03:02,040 --> 04:03:03,920
Speaker 9: It was a bunch of clips of Ronald Reagan being like,

4290
04:03:04,040 --> 04:03:09,080
Speaker 9: tariff's bad because Reagan Reagan's domestic protectionism took the form

4291
04:03:09,120 --> 04:03:13,040
Speaker 9: of currency devaluations and not tariffs, et cetera. Et cetera.

4292
04:03:13,120 --> 04:03:15,680
Speaker 9: But like, yeah, so and and and Trump saw this,

4293
04:03:16,000 --> 04:03:19,880
Speaker 9: lost his mind, said that it was Ai. There's a

4294
04:03:19,920 --> 04:03:22,800
Speaker 9: whole saga here about him claiming that it was like

4295
04:03:23,000 --> 04:03:27,280
Speaker 9: also unauthorized usage of footage, which is a fiasco. And

4296
04:03:27,320 --> 04:03:30,040
Speaker 9: then also all of the terror negotiations that have been

4297
04:03:30,040 --> 04:03:32,000
Speaker 9: happening to the US and Canada have been called off

4298
04:03:32,080 --> 04:03:34,520
Speaker 9: and he just put another ten percent terriff on them

4299
04:03:34,520 --> 04:03:38,440
Speaker 9: because he was mad about it. Goje, which yeah, totally,

4300
04:03:38,520 --> 04:03:42,880
Speaker 9: you know, I I totally absolutely a thing that like

4301
04:03:42,960 --> 04:03:46,600
Speaker 9: an elected head of government does and not a a

4302
04:03:46,720 --> 04:03:50,880
Speaker 9: guy who just received it a massive golden crown. Ah garousaid,

4303
04:03:51,080 --> 04:03:52,520
Speaker 9: that's not a blue Jay's hat, but.

4304
04:03:52,480 --> 04:03:55,240
Speaker 12: You know this is a blue Jay's hat. Mia, How

4305
04:03:55,360 --> 04:03:59,880
Speaker 12: fucking dare you try to? Uh, she'splain my own, my

4306
04:04:00,240 --> 04:04:02,440
Speaker 12: own country, myself.

4307
04:04:02,880 --> 04:04:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Toronto's team.

4308
04:04:04,720 --> 04:04:07,960
Speaker 1: Garrison's wearing a hat for those who are not working

4309
04:04:08,040 --> 04:04:08,880
Speaker 1: for coolers own media.

4310
04:04:08,920 --> 04:04:11,320
Speaker 12: It's the Toronto Blue Jays. Oh my god, yeah yeah yeah,

4311
04:04:11,320 --> 04:04:11,960
Speaker 12: in Toronto blue.

4312
04:04:12,240 --> 04:04:13,320
Speaker 2: It was the Toronto Blue Jays.

4313
04:04:13,400 --> 04:04:14,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's not.

4314
04:04:14,320 --> 04:04:14,960
Speaker 3: A J on it.

4315
04:04:15,080 --> 04:04:17,480
Speaker 12: Why well no, it just has the map, but.

4316
04:04:17,440 --> 04:04:20,120
Speaker 1: It's only three points. It's not a not a traditional

4317
04:04:20,120 --> 04:04:20,600
Speaker 1: maple leaf.

4318
04:04:20,920 --> 04:04:23,920
Speaker 12: James, are you gonna Are you gonna she explain my

4319
04:04:24,160 --> 04:04:25,720
Speaker 12: own country.

4320
04:04:25,200 --> 04:04:28,400
Speaker 1: To me, Garrison when it comes to birds and leaves,

4321
04:04:28,640 --> 04:04:29,080
Speaker 1: I am.

4322
04:04:28,920 --> 04:04:35,400
Speaker 9: Going to Canada explain to you it rocks. Yeah, but

4323
04:04:35,440 --> 04:04:38,520
Speaker 9: that's fun. That's just how tariff policy is set. Now,

4324
04:04:38,720 --> 04:04:41,160
Speaker 9: is you pissed off the king and he decided to

4325
04:04:41,280 --> 04:04:41,920
Speaker 9: put a teriff?

4326
04:04:42,040 --> 04:04:42,480
Speaker 8: This is.

4327
04:04:44,200 --> 04:04:48,280
Speaker 9: I don't know, I don't really know how to do

4328
04:04:48,360 --> 04:04:50,240
Speaker 9: analysis of the fact that we just have a child

4329
04:04:50,400 --> 04:04:53,600
Speaker 9: king setting tariff policy. It's it's great.

4330
04:04:53,680 --> 04:04:56,600
Speaker 12: Look quick, fact, Jack, do you read can you read this?

4331
04:04:56,760 --> 04:04:56,880
Speaker 11: Oh?

4332
04:04:56,880 --> 04:04:57,080
Speaker 8: Wow?

4333
04:04:57,120 --> 04:04:58,320
Speaker 9: It does say Blue Jays.

4334
04:04:59,240 --> 04:05:05,040
Speaker 12: Read this genuine m LB merchandise. Okay, wow wow wow.

4335
04:05:05,280 --> 04:05:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. They one would ever put that in fake MLB merchandise, Yeah,

4336
04:05:09,600 --> 04:05:10,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't be allowed.

4337
04:05:11,920 --> 04:05:14,840
Speaker 1: I've never seen any genuine MLB merchandise in markets in

4338
04:05:14,840 --> 04:05:15,920
Speaker 1: a Rocks for example.

4339
04:05:16,160 --> 04:05:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hey, I'm the owner of a proud Fixing Gan

4340
04:05:21,520 --> 04:05:23,280
Speaker 2: shirt that I bought at a market in there.

4341
04:05:24,000 --> 04:05:28,000
Speaker 12: All right, all right, all right, everybody, Okay. I think

4342
04:05:28,040 --> 04:05:30,560
Speaker 12: it's politically important for the Blue Jays to win the

4343
04:05:30,600 --> 04:05:35,480
Speaker 12: World Series and contribute to the American Century of humiliation.

4344
04:05:36,720 --> 04:05:39,520
Speaker 2: I still have my my Tumberland boots that I bought

4345
04:05:39,560 --> 04:05:41,920
Speaker 2: in Syria.

4346
04:05:40,960 --> 04:05:44,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a five dot one dot one jacket.

4347
04:05:45,120 --> 04:05:46,840
Speaker 2: Oh and I've got it. I got a greater Adotus

4348
04:05:46,920 --> 04:05:48,520
Speaker 2: track suit when I was in Istanbul.

4349
04:05:49,960 --> 04:05:52,520
Speaker 12: Do you want to do this fallection right now?

4350
04:05:52,520 --> 04:05:55,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, let's do it now. Let's talk about talking

4351
04:05:55,480 --> 04:05:59,760
Speaker 1: of things which are not as they seem. California Attorney General,

4352
04:06:00,160 --> 04:06:02,320
Speaker 1: look at that Charason. That is why they pay me

4353
04:06:02,360 --> 04:06:08,760
Speaker 1: the medium bugs. California Attorney General Rob Bonter is warning.

4354
04:06:08,520 --> 04:06:09,680
Speaker 2: Such a fake guess name.

4355
04:06:09,720 --> 04:06:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, sorry, Garrison is wearing that hat for those

4356
04:06:15,640 --> 04:06:18,000
Speaker 1: not watching this podcast. On top of the head in

4357
04:06:18,040 --> 04:06:22,200
Speaker 1: the fashion of affairs, California Attorney General Rob Bonte is

4358
04:06:22,240 --> 04:06:26,560
Speaker 1: wannering about election interference by the federal government. The federal

4359
04:06:26,560 --> 04:06:30,160
Speaker 1: government has sent monitors to California to a number of

4360
04:06:30,200 --> 04:06:34,480
Speaker 1: different counties in California in order to monitor the elections

4361
04:06:34,480 --> 04:06:36,920
Speaker 1: that are happening here on the fourth of November. To

4362
04:06:37,000 --> 04:06:42,320
Speaker 1: be clear, federal monitoring is not uncommon. The Biden administration

4363
04:06:42,440 --> 04:06:45,360
Speaker 1: did it in more than eighty places in twenty twenty four,

4364
04:06:45,440 --> 04:06:48,880
Speaker 1: for example. But BoNT seems convinced this monitoring is going

4365
04:06:48,920 --> 04:06:52,400
Speaker 1: to lead to election denial. Elector interference. Here's Gavin Newsom

4366
04:06:52,440 --> 04:06:53,760
Speaker 1: talking on X about this.

4367
04:06:54,320 --> 04:06:58,040
Speaker 22: So today the trop administration announced they're sending election monitors

4368
04:06:58,080 --> 04:07:01,680
Speaker 22: to five specific counties here in the state of California.

4369
04:07:01,760 --> 04:07:03,960
Speaker 22: They have no business doing that, they have no basis

4370
04:07:03,960 --> 04:07:06,920
Speaker 22: to do that. In fact, we have a state wide

4371
04:07:07,160 --> 04:07:12,640
Speaker 22: election for a statewide constitution. This is about voter intimidation.

4372
04:07:12,720 --> 04:07:16,120
Speaker 22: This is about voter suppression, period, full stop. And it's

4373
04:07:16,160 --> 04:07:18,680
Speaker 22: a pattern, isn't it. It's consistent with what they've done

4374
04:07:18,800 --> 04:07:21,720
Speaker 22: with the federalization of the National Guard and the intimidation

4375
04:07:21,800 --> 04:07:24,240
Speaker 22: of the chill that that's created. They'll do that right

4376
04:07:24,240 --> 04:07:26,920
Speaker 22: around election day as well. Same thing with ice and

4377
04:07:27,000 --> 04:07:27,680
Speaker 22: Border Patrol.

4378
04:07:27,760 --> 04:07:30,480
Speaker 7: Mass men watch that space showing up.

4379
04:07:30,360 --> 04:07:33,800
Speaker 22: In and around polling booths and voting places. But this

4380
04:07:34,440 --> 04:07:36,920
Speaker 22: is a bridge too far, and I hope people understand

4381
04:07:36,960 --> 04:07:39,400
Speaker 22: it's a bridge that they're trying to build a scaffolding

4382
04:07:39,600 --> 04:07:43,320
Speaker 22: for all across this country and next Novembers election. They

4383
04:07:43,360 --> 04:07:47,360
Speaker 22: do not believe in fair and free elections. Our republic,

4384
04:07:47,400 --> 04:07:50,680
Speaker 22: our democracy is on the line. We all need to

4385
04:07:50,720 --> 04:07:51,160
Speaker 22: wake up.

4386
04:07:51,760 --> 04:07:54,640
Speaker 1: I met Monkencerne with the stuff around that. I think

4387
04:07:54,640 --> 04:07:58,640
Speaker 1: he's probably right that we will see like more federal

4388
04:07:59,160 --> 04:08:03,240
Speaker 1: agents around polling places in election time. What California was

4389
04:08:03,280 --> 04:08:06,920
Speaker 1: doing in response is assigning monitors to monitor the federal monitors,

4390
04:08:07,600 --> 04:08:11,880
Speaker 1: which will be interesting and it seems unusual, right for

4391
04:08:11,920 --> 04:08:14,520
Speaker 1: the federal monitors be monitoring. Think that one of the

4392
04:08:14,560 --> 04:08:17,040
Speaker 1: things that's on the ballot this year is Prop fifty right,

4393
04:08:17,080 --> 04:08:21,080
Speaker 1: which would redistrict California. It's jerry mandering, so jerry mandering proposition.

4394
04:08:20,680 --> 04:08:25,880
Speaker 2: To it's revenge gerrymandering character Jerry The bill is specifically

4395
04:08:25,960 --> 04:08:28,360
Speaker 2: we not we're going to do this, but we're going

4396
04:08:28,400 --> 04:08:32,360
Speaker 2: to do this if the there's redistricting in Texas.

4397
04:08:32,600 --> 04:08:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's yes, it's an attempt to rectify the

4398
04:08:36,600 --> 04:08:38,800
Speaker 1: very obvious gary mandering Texas.

4399
04:08:38,600 --> 04:08:42,480
Speaker 2: It's kind of mad. Mutually asserted destruction is applied to

4400
04:08:42,840 --> 04:08:43,360
Speaker 2: Jerry Man.

4401
04:08:43,520 --> 04:08:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. Neither of these things are great. That's

4402
04:08:48,200 --> 04:08:50,760
Speaker 1: here we are. I think that's what I had on

4403
04:08:50,800 --> 04:08:51,800
Speaker 1: this Actually cool.

4404
04:08:52,440 --> 04:08:52,680
Speaker 3: Yep.

4405
04:08:52,800 --> 04:08:55,920
Speaker 1: I think that's that's U E eisode. That's where we're at,

4406
04:08:56,160 --> 04:08:57,600
Speaker 1: all right, everybody.

4407
04:08:57,400 --> 04:09:04,400
Speaker 12: Well, until breaking autism news, God Texas is suing Thailand

4408
04:09:04,400 --> 04:09:07,720
Speaker 12: and all specifically a pharmacytic company Johnston Johnson for marketing

4409
04:09:07,800 --> 04:09:09,520
Speaker 12: tile and all the pregnant women and failing to disclose.

4410
04:09:09,560 --> 04:09:12,560
Speaker 12: But a turny general can Paxton calls quote a significantly

4411
04:09:12,600 --> 04:09:15,520
Speaker 12: increased risk of autism and other disorders unquote.

4412
04:09:15,640 --> 04:09:18,600
Speaker 1: They don't market it to pregnant women. Like Geremany.

4413
04:09:19,480 --> 04:09:22,120
Speaker 2: It says like if I'm not mistaken, it says on

4414
04:09:22,160 --> 04:09:25,440
Speaker 2: the bottles, don't take if your nurse you're pregnant.

4415
04:09:25,040 --> 04:09:28,440
Speaker 1: We covered this in a previous episode. But like Germany,

4416
04:09:28,520 --> 04:09:31,920
Speaker 1: drugs are not very few drugs are marketed to pregnant people, right,

4417
04:09:32,000 --> 04:09:32,960
Speaker 1: be the women or otherwise.

4418
04:09:33,040 --> 04:09:33,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

4419
04:09:33,320 --> 04:09:35,280
Speaker 2: No, the only thing you're supposed to take is a

4420
04:09:35,280 --> 04:09:37,440
Speaker 2: pregnant woman is cocaine, and you got to make sure

4421
04:09:37,440 --> 04:09:37,960
Speaker 2: it's pure.

4422
04:09:38,200 --> 04:09:39,800
Speaker 9: Non Binary people thought you can take anything.

4423
04:09:39,880 --> 04:09:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you're If you're not pregnant, it's

4424
04:09:42,200 --> 04:09:43,040
Speaker 2: okay to do whatever.

4425
04:09:43,360 --> 04:09:45,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you are pregnant, not a woman, it's okay,

4426
04:09:45,840 --> 04:09:46,320
Speaker 1: go right.

4427
04:09:46,240 --> 04:09:49,600
Speaker 2: Hell yeah yeah sure, yes, wait, no, I don't think

4428
04:09:49,680 --> 04:09:50,880
Speaker 2: that that's how it works.

4429
04:09:52,040 --> 04:09:54,720
Speaker 9: Transmasting double yeah yeah, yeah, true.

4430
04:09:54,720 --> 04:09:56,960
Speaker 2: I think if you have a fetus gest dating in you,

4431
04:09:56,960 --> 04:09:58,760
Speaker 2: you're only supposed to do cocaine.

4432
04:09:59,080 --> 04:10:03,040
Speaker 12: Definitely the least autistic for people, non binary people. Yeah,

4433
04:10:03,080 --> 04:10:07,280
Speaker 12: definitely definitely. They can just take whatever or do or

4434
04:10:07,320 --> 04:10:07,960
Speaker 12: do take whatever.

4435
04:10:08,160 --> 04:10:10,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, too many drugs like like they'll they'll say that

4436
04:10:10,120 --> 04:10:11,720
Speaker 1: you should consult with it with your doctor.

4437
04:10:11,760 --> 04:10:12,520
Speaker 12: Consulted doctor.

4438
04:10:12,640 --> 04:10:14,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and none of them are risk free. But it's

4439
04:10:14,920 --> 04:10:16,800
Speaker 1: it's it's a cost benefit analysis, right.

4440
04:10:16,800 --> 04:10:20,400
Speaker 12: We covered this the autism and Thailand all like correlation

4441
04:10:20,600 --> 04:10:24,800
Speaker 12: versus causation based on that one Sweeter s this is.

4442
04:10:25,280 --> 04:10:28,080
Speaker 12: I'm interested to see how Johnston and Johnson argues this

4443
04:10:28,120 --> 04:10:31,280
Speaker 12: in court and if that will have effects across you know,

4444
04:10:31,400 --> 04:10:34,440
Speaker 12: the rest of the Trump of administration's anti Thailand all push.

4445
04:10:34,680 --> 04:10:37,120
Speaker 12: If they're able to successfully defend their product against Ken

4446
04:10:37,160 --> 04:10:41,960
Speaker 12: Paxton so critical support sant Thailand. All, I guess.

4447
04:10:41,720 --> 04:10:45,320
Speaker 2: Welcome to the resistance, Big pharma Jesus.

4448
04:10:45,440 --> 04:10:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, if people listen to more and that we can

4449
04:10:48,640 --> 04:10:50,200
Speaker 1: get back and find out previous episode.

4450
04:10:50,360 --> 04:10:53,920
Speaker 2: All right, everybody, until next time, try not to be

4451
04:10:54,000 --> 04:10:59,400
Speaker 2: on a fishing boat anywhere south of the US southern border.

4452
04:11:00,760 --> 04:11:01,880
Speaker 2: It's not safe right now.

4453
04:11:02,240 --> 04:11:04,240
Speaker 12: Good luck trick or treating. Happy Halloween.

4454
04:11:04,320 --> 04:11:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, good love trick or treating. It's not safe right now.

4455
04:11:07,120 --> 04:11:08,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, don't be trick or treating in a boat.

4456
04:11:08,840 --> 04:11:13,160
Speaker 12: This year we've reported the news that sucks.

4457
04:11:13,280 --> 04:11:16,320
Speaker 21: Yeah, we reported the news.

4458
04:11:21,000 --> 04:11:21,200
Speaker 12: Hey.

4459
04:11:21,320 --> 04:11:24,400
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from

4460
04:11:24,440 --> 04:11:26,120
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the universe.

4461
04:11:26,880 --> 04:11:29,400
Speaker 23: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4462
04:11:29,560 --> 04:11:32,640
Speaker 23: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4463
04:11:32,720 --> 04:11:36,280
Speaker 23: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4464
04:11:36,360 --> 04:11:39,920
Speaker 23: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

4465
04:11:39,960 --> 04:11:42,280
Speaker 23: now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly

4466
04:11:42,320 --> 04:11:44,600
Speaker 23: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.