1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Not every episode in this series will contain explicit 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:26,836 Speaker 1: sex talk. This one doesn't. This one is about the 3 00:00:26,916 --> 00:00:32,596 Speaker 1: kinky finance. Last time on Hot Money, a guy named 4 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 1: Fabian Tilman borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars from Wall 5 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:38,876 Speaker 1: Street bankers to buy up porn sites around the world. 6 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:43,196 Speaker 1: He called his global porn empire Man Win. That's all 7 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: you need to remember for today's show. This episode begins 8 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: in December twenty twelve. Think of a rainy day in Brussels, 9 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:59,276 Speaker 1: which is about any day in Brussels. Fabian Tillman is 10 00:00:59,276 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 1: about to walk out of his mansion in a leafy suburb. 11 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:04,556 Speaker 1: A lear jette is waiting to take him to London, 12 00:01:04,916 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 1: where he's meeting some bankers, the kind of people who 13 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:10,676 Speaker 1: helped him become the under disputed king of world pawn. 14 00:01:11,396 --> 00:01:14,436 Speaker 1: But just as Fabian is about to leave, he gets 15 00:01:14,436 --> 00:01:18,036 Speaker 1: a visit, one that pretty much ends his porn career. 16 00:01:18,836 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: The police knock on his store. Fabian never mixed London. Instead, 17 00:01:26,036 --> 00:01:29,836 Speaker 1: he's arrested for suspected tax evasion and taken into custody. 18 00:01:31,076 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 1: How long we are in the prisons block eighteen days? 19 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:39,396 Speaker 1: I think eighteen days before charge yeah. See, years before 20 00:01:39,516 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: charge they didn't have anything. They didn't charge me. German 21 00:01:44,076 --> 00:01:48,036 Speaker 1: authorities had raided Fabian's company, Man Win, but at this 22 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: point the investigators leading the case they didn't have enough 23 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:56,076 Speaker 1: evidence to charge Fabian. They just held him. But still, 24 00:01:56,436 --> 00:02:01,396 Speaker 1: my letness were very confused. You bet. Fabian's Wall Street 25 00:02:01,396 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 1: backers had poured hundreds of millions of dollars into his 26 00:02:04,636 --> 00:02:07,676 Speaker 1: roll up of Pawn. They believed Fabian was a tech 27 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:11,836 Speaker 1: wonder kind sitting on steady cash flow, not some scandal 28 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 1: prone pornographer behind bars. The man who convinced Wall Street 29 00:02:16,276 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 1: that Pawn was a safe bet started to look like 30 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 1: a liability, and fabian superpower raising money became the weakness 31 00:02:25,876 --> 00:02:30,156 Speaker 1: that brought him down. The money man turned against him. 32 00:02:31,276 --> 00:02:34,796 Speaker 1: His slanders didn't pull out, but they told Fabian, when 33 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:38,676 Speaker 1: these lands expire, you won't get more, not even at 34 00:02:38,716 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 1: twenty percent interest. They just openly told me, listen, this 35 00:02:42,276 --> 00:02:45,636 Speaker 1: is going to be very difficult with you there to 36 00:02:45,716 --> 00:02:50,116 Speaker 1: do this, It could get very expensive. Fabian really only 37 00:02:50,156 --> 00:02:53,596 Speaker 1: had one option. He had to let go abandon the 38 00:02:53,636 --> 00:02:59,236 Speaker 1: empire he had built. An sell man one, don't feel 39 00:02:59,276 --> 00:03:02,356 Speaker 1: too sorry for Fabian. He made a tidy sum. He's 40 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:05,796 Speaker 1: never said exactly how much, but for a company this size, 41 00:03:05,956 --> 00:03:09,356 Speaker 1: it would be in the hundreds of millions. Report at 42 00:03:09,356 --> 00:03:13,556 Speaker 1: the time suggested Fabian sold the company to a consortium 43 00:03:13,676 --> 00:03:17,956 Speaker 1: led by management two senior executives who still run the company. 44 00:03:18,636 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: Thing is, that wasn't the full truth. We found out 45 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 1: that Fabian sold his empire to a different man, a 46 00:03:31,196 --> 00:03:35,036 Speaker 1: man who'd learned his trade at Goldman Sachs. Not a 47 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: techie like Fabian, but a true financier, someone who could 48 00:03:39,636 --> 00:03:43,396 Speaker 1: keep the lenders sweet. A man who somehow managed to 49 00:03:43,476 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 1: keep this identity at secret for close to a decade 50 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 1: until that is, Patricia came along and rumbled his game. 51 00:03:52,076 --> 00:03:56,276 Speaker 1: I'm Patrice Nelson and I'm Alex Barker from Pushkin Industries 52 00:03:56,316 --> 00:04:29,756 Speaker 1: and the Financial Times. This is hot money, Act one. 53 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 1: The buyer who didn't exist. If Fabian was an old 54 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 1: school pornographer, the fallout from his troubles with German tax 55 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:45,196 Speaker 1: authorities might have been different. He was eventually hit with 56 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: a bill for millions in back taxes and a penalty, 57 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:50,836 Speaker 1: and he might have got away with just paying that 58 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 1: and keeping his company. Fabian ended up the subject of 59 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:58,756 Speaker 1: scandalous headlines all over the world. But the mystery buyer 60 00:04:58,916 --> 00:05:03,716 Speaker 1: who took over Fabian's pawn empire would not why because 61 00:05:04,116 --> 00:05:07,516 Speaker 1: he left no trace. Even by the secretive standards of 62 00:05:07,556 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 1: the pawn world. The an who wanted to buy the 63 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: world's biggest pawn company was like a ghost. When I 64 00:05:15,036 --> 00:05:20,596 Speaker 1: saw the company, my bank said, this person's thick. You're 65 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:23,596 Speaker 1: not selling this is all thick. This person's exist. Who 66 00:05:23,676 --> 00:05:26,196 Speaker 1: was paying this money? This is the person that's paying 67 00:05:26,196 --> 00:05:28,956 Speaker 1: the money doesn't exist. What I mean, doesn't exist. Yeah, 68 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:31,036 Speaker 1: he's thick. We kind of find anything on him. It 69 00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:36,436 Speaker 1: is impossible that we cannot find anything on him. I'm 70 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 1: going to step away from Fabian for a moment to 71 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:40,996 Speaker 1: tell you how I first came across the spuyer who 72 00:05:41,036 --> 00:05:45,836 Speaker 1: didn't exist, the new owner of Fabian's company. I remember 73 00:05:45,836 --> 00:05:48,676 Speaker 1: when I first heard his name. I was perched on 74 00:05:48,676 --> 00:05:51,316 Speaker 1: the window sill of my bedroom talking on the phone 75 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 1: with a source about the company. By this time it 76 00:05:54,676 --> 00:05:58,076 Speaker 1: had been renamed from man Win to Mine Geek. Just 77 00:05:58,116 --> 00:06:01,796 Speaker 1: remember the m and this source said something that every 78 00:06:01,876 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 1: journalist dreams of hearing. Let me tell you something that 79 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:09,916 Speaker 1: no one knows. Mine Geek has a secret owner and 80 00:06:10,036 --> 00:06:14,356 Speaker 1: his name is Bernard Bergomar. I typed a name into 81 00:06:14,396 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 1: Google while still on the phone. Nothing. I asked my sores, 82 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:22,676 Speaker 1: can you spell it again? Nothing, but he was adamant, 83 00:06:22,756 --> 00:06:26,036 Speaker 1: that's your guy. I got off the phone and kept searching, 84 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:30,076 Speaker 1: and then I found one hit for Bernard Bergomar, a 85 00:06:30,156 --> 00:06:33,636 Speaker 1: court case from about a decade ago. It named him 86 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:36,636 Speaker 1: as a director of porn cite called red Tube. We'll 87 00:06:36,676 --> 00:06:38,556 Speaker 1: be hearing a lot more about red Tube later in 88 00:06:38,596 --> 00:06:42,716 Speaker 1: this episode. But that was it. I mean, it didn't 89 00:06:42,716 --> 00:06:46,836 Speaker 1: make sense. If this guy really owned the world's biggest 90 00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:50,276 Speaker 1: porn company, how could there be nothing on him except 91 00:06:50,316 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 1: for this one court record. So I asked a ton 92 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:57,916 Speaker 1: of people in the industry, even other journalists, have you 93 00:06:57,916 --> 00:07:00,676 Speaker 1: ever heard of this guy? Have you ever thought that 94 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 1: maybe wasn't true that Fabians sold the company to his 95 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:08,356 Speaker 1: management team, as the official story goes. No. They all 96 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:11,036 Speaker 1: told me that some was pulling my leg I started 97 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:17,476 Speaker 1: to feel a bit crazy. But then a few weeks later, Jackpot, 98 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: I found a guy who had worked at Read two 99 00:07:21,476 --> 00:07:27,436 Speaker 1: years ago, and he he had worked for Bernard. Bernard 100 00:07:27,916 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 1: was real. This is the point my curiosity really kicked in. 101 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: Before I knew it. I was rooting around Luxembourgish company 102 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:40,196 Speaker 1: records trying to make sense of it all. How could 103 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 1: the owner managed to stay hidden for so long? We 104 00:07:44,356 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: looked at mine Geek's corporate structure and it was totally 105 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:54,076 Speaker 1: Byzantine and Patricia's reporting that provided the clue that unlocked 106 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 1: its secrets. What we realized was that there was a 107 00:07:57,556 --> 00:08:01,316 Speaker 1: single golden chair at the heart of it all. It 108 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 1: effectively gave Bernard control and the lion's share of profit, 109 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 1: but most important of all, it allowed him to stay hidden. 110 00:08:10,276 --> 00:08:13,196 Speaker 1: We published a story and it was a pretty big hit. 111 00:08:13,876 --> 00:08:18,476 Speaker 1: Turns out that people love reading about Paul and Patricia. 112 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:23,276 Speaker 1: She had the scoop of her career. A couple of 113 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:26,756 Speaker 1: days go by, a colleague of ours on the FT's 114 00:08:26,796 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 1: investigative team tells me she's heard something that will probably 115 00:08:31,596 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 1: interest me. A source who read our story called her 116 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 1: up and said, not only did he know Bernard, but 117 00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:46,236 Speaker 1: he knew his biggest secret. Bernard Bergomar is a cover name, 118 00:08:47,116 --> 00:08:49,596 Speaker 1: a persona that he uses for his dealings in the 119 00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:56,596 Speaker 1: porn industry. His real name is Burnt Burned Burgmier. Somehow 120 00:08:56,796 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 1: he had managed to use a fake name in court, 121 00:08:59,876 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: so to recap fake name Bernard Bergomar, real name Burned Bergmyer. 122 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:10,756 Speaker 1: This may or may not be just about the worst 123 00:09:10,796 --> 00:09:13,916 Speaker 1: poor name and the whole history of porn. We just 124 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:17,596 Speaker 1: started calling him BB and nicknamed. That covers all basis. 125 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:23,076 Speaker 1: But the key thing here was that while Bernard Bergemar 126 00:09:23,556 --> 00:09:25,876 Speaker 1: had gone to great length to make sure that there 127 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 1: was no trace of him, Burnt Bergmire hadn't. Fabian, by 128 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 1: the way, knew of BB even before he snatched his 129 00:09:37,476 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 1: empire away. They had history years earlier. Fabian and BB 130 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:46,476 Speaker 1: went after the same company, the owner of porn Hub 131 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:52,996 Speaker 1: Fabian one, and BB lost. When Fabian was arrested, the 132 00:09:53,076 --> 00:09:56,916 Speaker 1: pawn gods smiled on BB and gave him the chance 133 00:09:57,436 --> 00:10:00,516 Speaker 1: to get his own back. We kind of sat around 134 00:10:01,116 --> 00:10:05,956 Speaker 1: Biden this time, opus a newspaper You're in prison, and 135 00:10:06,036 --> 00:10:12,356 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, yes, yeah, lucky him. B B understood 136 00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 1: that Fabians lenders would be on the lookout for someone 137 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 1: else to take over the business. He went straight to 138 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:21,756 Speaker 1: them and they liked the look of him. He was 139 00:10:21,796 --> 00:10:25,716 Speaker 1: one of their own. BB had worked at Goldman like 140 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:29,356 Speaker 1: the guys who had packaged Fabians deal, and this ex 141 00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:33,956 Speaker 1: banker turned pornographer, came with a neat financial plan. He 142 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:37,596 Speaker 1: would merge his own porn company, this cycled red tube, 143 00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:41,276 Speaker 1: with Fabian's empire, and raise enough money to buy him out. 144 00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 1: Fabians lenders handed him five hundred million dollars in total 145 00:10:46,556 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 1: and the crown of porn Land. So do you remember 146 00:10:55,876 --> 00:11:00,076 Speaker 1: and we found this picture? Yeah, I do some obscure 147 00:11:00,996 --> 00:11:05,516 Speaker 1: Chicago booth, business school alumni magazine and a get together 148 00:11:05,556 --> 00:11:07,956 Speaker 1: in Vienna. Yeah, from two thousand and two. And at 149 00:11:07,956 --> 00:11:10,116 Speaker 1: first we couldn't work out who is but here he 150 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:15,356 Speaker 1: is wearing a short sleeved blue shirt, big smile, looks 151 00:11:15,436 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 1: kind of shy, hands class in front of him. I 152 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 1: mean this was literally one of the first things we 153 00:11:21,676 --> 00:11:27,636 Speaker 1: found once we got that call from the ft investigations team. Yeah, 154 00:11:27,756 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 1: what his real name was, right? Yeah? Suddenly we have 155 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 1: email addressed to him. We have an address to his 156 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 1: penthouse suite, and some luxury hotel in Hong Kong. But 157 00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 1: the most amazing thing there was a phone number. And 158 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:42,596 Speaker 1: I decided to call the phone number, and I remember 159 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 1: it was it was ringing. It was a Hong Kong 160 00:11:44,556 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 1: phone number and was so old. I just didn't think 161 00:11:47,436 --> 00:11:50,476 Speaker 1: anyone would pick up. But there's this voice of a 162 00:11:50,556 --> 00:11:53,876 Speaker 1: man and he just says hello, and I say, oh Hi, 163 00:11:54,436 --> 00:11:59,836 Speaker 1: my name is Patricia's this burnt and he hangs up. Yeah, 164 00:11:59,996 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 1: you could find quite a lot about his life. We 165 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: could work out. You know, he came from this kind 166 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:09,676 Speaker 1: of little town in Upper Austria, that he must have 167 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: been precocious enough to make it to a big business 168 00:12:13,356 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 1: school in the state to get to Goldman Sachs. And 169 00:12:16,636 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 1: then there was that massive gap, which was how did 170 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 1: he get into Paul? I mean, how did mister Goldman 171 00:12:24,116 --> 00:12:27,436 Speaker 1: become mister Sex. We hadn't met lots of people in 172 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:30,276 Speaker 1: the porn industry who knew him, worked with him, or 173 00:12:30,876 --> 00:12:34,316 Speaker 1: had seen him much. At that point. The only thing 174 00:12:34,316 --> 00:12:37,236 Speaker 1: we knew was that he had been associated with Red Tube, 175 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:41,036 Speaker 1: his first porn site. Yeah, and even Fabian, a man 176 00:12:41,076 --> 00:12:44,316 Speaker 1: who had to convince the bank that BP actually existed, 177 00:12:44,956 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: still doesn't really know what made him switch from Goldman 178 00:12:49,836 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 1: to Pawn. He was always much more secretive than I am. 179 00:12:55,356 --> 00:12:58,556 Speaker 1: He never wanted to talk about this stuff ever. He's 180 00:12:58,556 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 1: a very private person. The only time I met him 181 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:07,356 Speaker 1: ever was in Las Vegas, and I saw him two times. 182 00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:10,236 Speaker 1: He didn't go to the shore. He went thought ashore 183 00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:13,276 Speaker 1: with us once. He didn't want anyone to All years like, 184 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:15,676 Speaker 1: we didn't tell people. We were the only ones that 185 00:13:15,796 --> 00:13:19,596 Speaker 1: know who this guy is. Do you think he disliked 186 00:13:19,596 --> 00:13:21,956 Speaker 1: the idea that he was actually in the pawn industry. No, 187 00:13:22,036 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 1: I don't think he cares. BB's distance from the world 188 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:29,476 Speaker 1: of pawn would have pretty profound consequences. He took a 189 00:13:29,556 --> 00:13:32,676 Speaker 1: hands off approach and that would matter not just for 190 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:35,836 Speaker 1: mine geek, but for how pawn was delivered to the world. 191 00:13:36,356 --> 00:13:39,236 Speaker 1: You could say it set the tone for an industry 192 00:13:39,516 --> 00:13:43,276 Speaker 1: where pawn platforms were passive hosts of videos more than 193 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:48,116 Speaker 1: active moderators. I wish I could give you his view, 194 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:52,156 Speaker 1: but he's never explained his choices, let alone be held 195 00:13:52,196 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 1: to account. We've constructed a portrait of BB by talking 196 00:13:56,196 --> 00:13:59,276 Speaker 1: with people who worked with him at key moments in 197 00:13:59,316 --> 00:14:02,396 Speaker 1: his pawn career, but we did not speak to the 198 00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: man himself. Like lots of other secretive millionaires, BB has 199 00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:10,596 Speaker 1: a place in London. A patricious story ran in the 200 00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:15,196 Speaker 1: FT A news site called Tortoise Media confronted him outside 201 00:14:15,196 --> 00:14:19,476 Speaker 1: his mansion, but he refused to talk. He's never given 202 00:14:19,516 --> 00:14:23,316 Speaker 1: a single interview. You've outlined to us, you know, your 203 00:14:23,396 --> 00:14:25,596 Speaker 1: mission while you were doing it, what you were trying 204 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:28,916 Speaker 1: to do. How is Bernar different? His mission is make money. 205 00:14:29,596 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 1: That's his mission. That's the only mission he has really. 206 00:14:33,636 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: That is literally, in my opinion, the only mission he 207 00:14:35,516 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: has is make money. It only doesn't care, absolutely not. 208 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:42,196 Speaker 1: He's just he's making money. He's not active in this 209 00:14:42,236 --> 00:14:47,196 Speaker 1: company in any shape or form. BB the small town 210 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:52,356 Speaker 1: Oustian boy turned Goldman banker, ultimately became a passive porn baron. 211 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:57,156 Speaker 1: He reaped the rewards of ownership without worrying about day 212 00:14:57,196 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 1: to day troubles. But that's not how it was at 213 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:04,436 Speaker 1: the beginning of his life and porn. Back then, he 214 00:15:04,476 --> 00:15:08,516 Speaker 1: was running things and he had absolutely no clue what 215 00:15:08,556 --> 00:15:14,556 Speaker 1: he was doing. Neither Chicago business school or a Goldman 216 00:15:14,596 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: Sachs had taught him how to make money of free porn. 217 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:21,036 Speaker 1: So this powerful banker had to turn to a couple 218 00:15:21,036 --> 00:15:27,996 Speaker 1: of guys half his age. Act to the invisible man. 219 00:15:30,836 --> 00:15:33,916 Speaker 1: It's a millennium, the Internet is just coming to life. 220 00:15:34,316 --> 00:15:37,196 Speaker 1: And Clem pk is at high school with his identical 221 00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 1: twin brother Toma, a school just outside Paris. We had 222 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:43,956 Speaker 1: a computer in his bedroom. We're saying one computer and 223 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: there was just sake. We're taking turns at couding it 224 00:15:47,036 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 1: that making it. You've got mail. So they're messing around 225 00:15:50,676 --> 00:15:54,116 Speaker 1: with computers, setting up Star Wars websites, normal geek stuff. 226 00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: Then comes another teen fixation sex. Their first websites were 227 00:15:59,236 --> 00:16:03,356 Speaker 1: celebrity pictures. They watch girls Demi Moore, Jerry Halliwell and 228 00:16:03,436 --> 00:16:05,516 Speaker 1: the Spice Girls, the kind of thing that fills the 229 00:16:05,556 --> 00:16:10,356 Speaker 1: mind of a horny teen, and it took off before long. 230 00:16:10,716 --> 00:16:13,956 Speaker 1: Their website was definitely more than just a bedroom hobby, 231 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: and so you were running one of the top ten 232 00:16:16,876 --> 00:16:23,236 Speaker 1: most popular adult websites from your school exactly if from 233 00:16:23,236 --> 00:16:26,356 Speaker 1: a high school for like eighteen back then, god school 234 00:16:26,436 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: was ending at five where to take the metro, go home, 235 00:16:29,156 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: open the door for employees work from like five PM 236 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 1: to one or tween in the morning, going to bed 237 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:37,196 Speaker 1: up at seven. I tried to do homework in the 238 00:16:37,316 --> 00:16:41,116 Speaker 1: metro on the way to school. One there o Mom 239 00:16:41,156 --> 00:16:43,516 Speaker 1: comes over and she's like, Hey, what's that you know, 240 00:16:43,876 --> 00:16:46,676 Speaker 1: seventy thousand dollars check you know, from the mall that's 241 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:50,876 Speaker 1: like addressed to you. I'm like, well, you know, it's 242 00:16:50,956 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 1: better you sit down. Clems mom got used to it. 243 00:16:55,316 --> 00:16:57,276 Speaker 1: She even had to sign him into his first porn 244 00:16:57,356 --> 00:16:59,876 Speaker 1: conference in Las Vegas because he was under the age 245 00:16:59,916 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 1: of twenty one. By the mid two thousands, tub sides 246 00:17:03,636 --> 00:17:08,156 Speaker 1: were exploding online. Clem saw the transformation. It was a 247 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:11,516 Speaker 1: threat to his business, which charge people to view videos. 248 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: How could he compete against sites that were ripping porn 249 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:19,476 Speaker 1: DVDs and effectively giving them away for free. Did you 250 00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:22,716 Speaker 1: ever think of starting a tube site yourself or to us? 251 00:17:22,756 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: There was just like too much risk because we were 252 00:17:25,036 --> 00:17:28,236 Speaker 1: working with the studios that we're buying content from, so 253 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: we just didn't want to take the risk of losing 254 00:17:30,636 --> 00:17:33,716 Speaker 1: their relationship and losing everything and also getting sued. I 255 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 1: think they could have goot on us in a lot 256 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 1: of trouble. Clem was once offered the chance to buy 257 00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:42,316 Speaker 1: a tube site. We're going to tell you about it 258 00:17:42,396 --> 00:17:46,836 Speaker 1: because this deal turned out to be BB's gateway to pawn. 259 00:17:47,556 --> 00:17:50,436 Speaker 1: The year was two thousand and eight. Clem was by 260 00:17:50,476 --> 00:17:53,796 Speaker 1: now in his twenties doing well in the business, and 261 00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: he was chatting to the founder of one of the 262 00:17:56,036 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 1: top pawn tube sites when they he just told me 263 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:01,876 Speaker 1: that I think he thinks he's done. I think he 264 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:05,116 Speaker 1: wanted to do something else. And he asked me, if 265 00:18:05,476 --> 00:18:07,836 Speaker 1: you know I was interested in buying a retribe dot com, 266 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:10,356 Speaker 1: which am I gonna for the price that he wanted? 267 00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: I mean, it was a very attractive purchase. It was 268 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:16,156 Speaker 1: called red Tube and it was one of the world's 269 00:18:16,196 --> 00:18:20,356 Speaker 1: most visited tube sites for porn. Red Tube was founded 270 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 1: by a couple of Austrian guys who were now looking 271 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:27,916 Speaker 1: for a change of career. One of them found God 272 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:29,836 Speaker 1: and wanted to get out of porn so he could 273 00:18:29,836 --> 00:18:32,796 Speaker 1: set up at Christian social media site. How much was 274 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: he looking for at that point, I think he wanted 275 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:39,036 Speaker 1: around like five million dollars. It was an attractive deal. 276 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:42,396 Speaker 1: But Clem didn't want to take the legal risk of 277 00:18:42,556 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 1: messing with user generated content, so the owners of red 278 00:18:46,476 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 1: Tube sold to a fellow Austrian, a former banker who 279 00:18:50,476 --> 00:18:56,436 Speaker 1: called himself Bernard, BB's cover name. Clem started buying red 280 00:18:56,476 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: shube bads from BB later that year. So we met 281 00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:02,716 Speaker 1: at a hotel in Beverly Hills and you know, just 282 00:19:02,836 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 1: had a lunch together, and you know, I was surprised. 283 00:19:05,716 --> 00:19:09,196 Speaker 1: He was like a lovely, very well mannered, gentleman and 284 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:11,596 Speaker 1: like very deper very well dressed. He was a you know, 285 00:19:11,716 --> 00:19:15,436 Speaker 1: very nice gentleman. Did he seem like the other kind 286 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:18,636 Speaker 1: of businessman you'd meet in the adult industry? No, No, 287 00:19:18,676 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 1: not at all, because most of the other one person 288 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:23,956 Speaker 1: that I was dealing with, they were mostly take one 289 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:26,876 Speaker 1: master in adults. I mean to me, he was a 290 00:19:26,916 --> 00:19:31,956 Speaker 1: financial manager that he wasn't technical whatsoever. Bernard was now 291 00:19:31,996 --> 00:19:34,476 Speaker 1: in charge of one of the most highly trafficked porn 292 00:19:34,516 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 1: sites in the world, but at that lunch in Beverly Hills, 293 00:19:38,436 --> 00:19:42,796 Speaker 1: he asked Clem for basic tips on managing a platform. 294 00:19:42,996 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 1: Turns out he didn't really know the nitty gritty of 295 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: running a porn site. Surprise me, because I'm like, why 296 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:52,156 Speaker 1: did you even by this in the first pass issue? 297 00:19:52,396 --> 00:19:54,156 Speaker 1: Didn't really know what to do with it though I 298 00:19:54,156 --> 00:19:56,156 Speaker 1: had to run it. I mean, to have basically just 299 00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:58,716 Speaker 1: taken on a site like that, probably one of the 300 00:19:58,756 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: top fifty in the world at that stage. Yeah, I 301 00:20:02,316 --> 00:20:04,556 Speaker 1: definitely think it was like top fifty for sure. And 302 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:07,356 Speaker 1: not to have run a site like this before in 303 00:20:07,436 --> 00:20:10,316 Speaker 1: any way, that's a big ample to take, right, That's 304 00:20:10,356 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 1: a big game ball. I mean, it's a it's not 305 00:20:12,476 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 1: something that you you know, you pick on like in 306 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:15,556 Speaker 1: a couple of days, I was like, oh, I can 307 00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:18,996 Speaker 1: run this noment, you know. No, Biggie Clem kept watching 308 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:21,756 Speaker 1: BB and he saw that he did manage to keep 309 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: it going and start to make decent money. That might 310 00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:26,756 Speaker 1: be why he put it in the first place, because 311 00:20:26,756 --> 00:20:28,436 Speaker 1: he saw that he could make his money back in 312 00:20:28,476 --> 00:20:30,796 Speaker 1: like a year and anything after this is just going 313 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:32,516 Speaker 1: to be gravy. But I think on the top of it, 314 00:20:32,636 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 1: he kept on growing. Yeah, it's it's pretty impressive play, 315 00:20:35,556 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 1: right to go from having never been in this industry, 316 00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 1: having never run my website, within five years he was 317 00:20:42,116 --> 00:20:46,316 Speaker 1: running the world but poor company. Yeah, I think he's 318 00:20:46,316 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 1: a good investor when it comes down, especially after what 319 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:50,076 Speaker 1: happened with Red Too. But I think he knows what 320 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 1: a good opportunity looks like. I mean, Clem helped us 321 00:20:57,316 --> 00:21:00,476 Speaker 1: understand that when BB bought Read Too, that was his 322 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 1: first movement to porn and he, you know, he had 323 00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:08,356 Speaker 1: no idea what he was doing, and that obviously raises 324 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 1: the question of why how did this former Goldms sax 325 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:17,356 Speaker 1: banker find himself running one of the world's biggest porn sites. Yeah, 326 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:20,276 Speaker 1: it took us a while to even piece together an 327 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 1: explanation for how he got into this by talking to 328 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:27,756 Speaker 1: old friends of his from his life before porn who 329 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 1: told us about his early days at Goldman Sachs whereas 330 00:21:31,116 --> 00:21:34,276 Speaker 1: in Frankfurt and doing reasonably well. You know, he had 331 00:21:34,276 --> 00:21:38,196 Speaker 1: a fast car and a big apartment. But curiously in 332 00:21:38,196 --> 00:21:40,796 Speaker 1: this big apartment was would sleep on a mattress on 333 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:44,196 Speaker 1: the floor and one person we spoke to said he 334 00:21:44,276 --> 00:21:48,156 Speaker 1: didn't quite fit with the kind of rigors of Goldman 335 00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:51,876 Speaker 1: at that time, and after a couple of years he 336 00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:57,516 Speaker 1: ended up leaving and finding love and returning to Austria 337 00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:02,516 Speaker 1: where his family was the farming family, and he started 338 00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:06,116 Speaker 1: working as a bit of a freelance financial adviser for 339 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 1: a wealthy Austrian family, kind of advising on deals and 340 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 1: money in general. And that's what brought him to these 341 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:19,236 Speaker 1: two Austrian gentlemen who were desperate to sell a pawn 342 00:22:19,236 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 1: site so one of them could go and launch a 343 00:22:23,116 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 1: social media platform for Christians. And bb was brought on 344 00:22:27,796 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: to advise on the sale to find a buyer, and 345 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:35,156 Speaker 1: he clearly looked at it, and ever the dealmaker saw 346 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: a bargain and decided to buy himself. Yeah, and we 347 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 1: know that Bbe was quite hands on in the early 348 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 1: days of read tube, but even though he was using 349 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 1: his porn name, he kind of wanted to remain in 350 00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 1: the shadows. I mean, he definitely didn't want to be 351 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:56,396 Speaker 1: the face of the company, and so he needed to 352 00:22:56,396 --> 00:22:59,636 Speaker 1: find someone else who could do that for him represent 353 00:22:59,876 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 1: Red Tube at various conferences, etc. And we managed to 354 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 1: find one of the people who did this for him. 355 00:23:07,916 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 1: That's after the break act three BB's show. So just 356 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:21,516 Speaker 1: to recap, it's two thousand and eight. BB has bought 357 00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 1: red Tube, one of the world's biggest pawn tube sites. 358 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 1: He's not making pawn but hosting it, and he's basically 359 00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 1: learning on the job. He does what any banker out 360 00:23:33,236 --> 00:23:37,516 Speaker 1: of his depth would do. He hires people codas tech 361 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:42,516 Speaker 1: people specialists in video streaming. But he also needed a frontman, 362 00:23:43,556 --> 00:23:50,476 Speaker 1: so Red Shube hired Alan Lake. I had no idea 363 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 1: what I was doing. I had no idea what I 364 00:23:52,876 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 1: was doing. I got employed because they liked the content 365 00:23:56,036 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 1: I was doing on the radio. Alan was a freelance 366 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:02,796 Speaker 1: radio presenter. You worked for a bunch of local stations 367 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:05,516 Speaker 1: in the UK, it's actually hard to find one. He 368 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 1: hasn't been on. Hello everybody, welcome to the show. Are 369 00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:14,596 Speaker 1: you feeling good? Feeling fine? How are you feeling empowered? 370 00:24:16,796 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 1: Alan had just got a boot from one station and 371 00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:23,396 Speaker 1: he was well struggling to get work. Red Tube contacted 372 00:24:23,476 --> 00:24:26,556 Speaker 1: him to make videos and ride a blog. The money 373 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:29,876 Speaker 1: was good, so he went for it. It was a 374 00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 1: very strange place to work. It felt shady. Everybody used 375 00:24:35,436 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: their first names. It was really really secretive, which was 376 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:43,636 Speaker 1: really intriguing. He got a big title head of Marketing 377 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 1: and Communications. My bosses are going to cream in their pants, 378 00:24:46,796 --> 00:24:48,636 Speaker 1: as would say in the UK, because I had bree 379 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:51,836 Speaker 1: us in here. Oh you're pissing me? Do you want 380 00:24:51,836 --> 00:24:54,356 Speaker 1: me to piss in you with? This is when the 381 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:57,156 Speaker 1: biggest starts. You are gonna find here at the AVIA. 382 00:24:57,236 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: That's what you guys say, though, don't you like you're 383 00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:02,116 Speaker 1: taking a piss on me? But this wasn't an average company. 384 00:25:02,396 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 1: It wasn't even an average porn company. Do you know 385 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:07,996 Speaker 1: where these people were based? I mean, did you get 386 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,596 Speaker 1: to a point where you were basically meeting your colleagues? 387 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 1: I didn't meet anyone for a year, but then One day, 388 00:25:16,356 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: Red Tube decided to host a company get together and 389 00:25:18,996 --> 00:25:23,276 Speaker 1: crete Alan was finally invited to meet his colleagues in person, 390 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:27,396 Speaker 1: and it was there on the shores of the Aegean 391 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:32,116 Speaker 1: that he encountered bb for the first time. Bernard was 392 00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:34,836 Speaker 1: a mystery to me, but I definitely knew absolutely nothing 393 00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:38,036 Speaker 1: about Bernard. He showed up and I remember walking down 394 00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 1: the beach with him. He was asking me what I 395 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 1: want in life. I just want to make really good 396 00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:45,996 Speaker 1: content and be known for that. And then he started 397 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:48,836 Speaker 1: to explain to me how really good content was great 398 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 1: and all that, but we had to make sure everything 399 00:25:52,276 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 1: within the business made money. He was telling me, basically, 400 00:25:55,356 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 1: if my content doesn't make money, you'll walk on the beach. 401 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,236 Speaker 1: Who was probably with one of the most successful and 402 00:26:01,396 --> 00:26:05,716 Speaker 1: prolific pornographers of the ditchal age. Do you know what? 403 00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:10,236 Speaker 1: That half surprises me? And then the other half dozen't 404 00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:13,316 Speaker 1: you know? I was always intrigued. I knew I wasn't 405 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:15,876 Speaker 1: getting the full story from anyone in that business. But 406 00:26:16,156 --> 00:26:20,676 Speaker 1: that guy, Yeah, he seemed to be behind a couple 407 00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 1: of barriers. He certainly couldn't call Alan a big mover 408 00:26:25,316 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: and shaker at Red Tube, but He had a worm's 409 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:31,196 Speaker 1: eye view of BB's empire, the layers of secrecy, the 410 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:35,516 Speaker 1: tiny operation, the curious role that BB played. He even 411 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:40,756 Speaker 1: handled Alan's expenses occasionally. Yeah, he literally queried his receipts. 412 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 1: But alongside the bookkeeping, there was ambition. BB wanted to 413 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:47,196 Speaker 1: make Red Tube the most well known pawn site on 414 00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:51,476 Speaker 1: the planet. He had big plans. He wanted control over 415 00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:54,796 Speaker 1: the adult industry, but the first step was sending Alan 416 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: to pawn conferences to tell the world what they were doing. 417 00:26:58,396 --> 00:27:01,356 Speaker 1: We had a big budget because they wanted we were 418 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:03,756 Speaker 1: We were their face. You know, we were walking around 419 00:27:03,756 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 1: an expo with a Red Tube T shirt on. They 420 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:09,756 Speaker 1: gave us everything we wanted because they wanted to see, 421 00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:11,596 Speaker 1: you know, red Chube was the place to bait. That 422 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,996 Speaker 1: seemed to be the only goal I could fathom at 423 00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:19,436 Speaker 1: the time. Remember, Red Tube was a success, a big name, 424 00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 1: but Babe did not have his top people represent the 425 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:27,596 Speaker 1: company at industry events. The reason was porn people still 426 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:30,996 Speaker 1: hated tub sides because they were giving away videos for free, 427 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:34,756 Speaker 1: so they sent Alan instead to take the flak to 428 00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:38,516 Speaker 1: the industry. Alan was the face of the company and 429 00:27:38,636 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 1: we went round and we spoke to a few people, 430 00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:45,276 Speaker 1: but a lot of people would point blank tell us 431 00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 1: to just do one don't want to speak to you. 432 00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:51,876 Speaker 1: On one occasion, we were interviewing some lady and she 433 00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:53,956 Speaker 1: was showing us a bit some bobs and telling us 434 00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 1: about other stuff. You were looking absolutely stunning. Check out 435 00:27:56,956 --> 00:28:01,276 Speaker 1: this bay. Wow, I could just eat you alive right now. 436 00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden I gets pushed, end up, 437 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: falling over, stand up, and I'm like, hey, you know 438 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 1: what's going on? And this guy says, you guys have 439 00:28:10,676 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 1: ruined the industry. You have ruined everything we're doing. Everyone 440 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 1: here today, no one should speak to you because of 441 00:28:17,196 --> 00:28:21,036 Speaker 1: what you guys have done to this industry. You've stolen content, 442 00:28:21,596 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 1: and we just don't want to see you here. And 443 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:27,436 Speaker 1: then I got a bit of a whack. How did 444 00:28:27,436 --> 00:28:31,836 Speaker 1: it make you feel? Awful? Absolutely awful? And it happened 445 00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:35,436 Speaker 1: a number of times. The longer Alan was working with 446 00:28:35,516 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 1: red Tube, the more his concerns grew about the content, 447 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:40,916 Speaker 1: not just the kind of videos on there, but the 448 00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:42,676 Speaker 1: fact that a lot of the pawn just looked like 449 00:28:42,716 --> 00:28:45,596 Speaker 1: it had been ripped from a DVD. I was told 450 00:28:45,676 --> 00:28:48,516 Speaker 1: point blank there was no content at all on the 451 00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:52,476 Speaker 1: website that was stolen and it was all legit. Ever 452 00:28:52,596 --> 00:28:57,436 Speaker 1: brought up any content in the past being ripped off, 453 00:28:57,516 --> 00:29:00,276 Speaker 1: then you would get slapped down. You would get a 454 00:29:00,276 --> 00:29:02,316 Speaker 1: slap down and you get told no, we don't do that. 455 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:05,476 Speaker 1: We all knew it did. The hands of approach to 456 00:29:05,596 --> 00:29:10,276 Speaker 1: moderating the content, the tiny secretive teams working for companies 457 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 1: parked and far off jurisdictions like Hong Kong. They were 458 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 1: effectively untouchable the owners behind the scenes. They never stepped 459 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:22,556 Speaker 1: up to take responsibility. They ran things on the fly 460 00:29:23,196 --> 00:29:28,036 Speaker 1: and raped in the cash. All these choices for BB 461 00:29:28,756 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: they would eventually backfire in spectacular fashion. The empire he 462 00:29:34,116 --> 00:29:37,276 Speaker 1: managed to wrestle out of Fabian's hands would be brought 463 00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 1: to its knees. Some say Fabian was as guilty as 464 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:44,076 Speaker 1: BB or any other of the Tube site guys, that 465 00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 1: Fabians stole from the pawn industry and didn't care about 466 00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:50,476 Speaker 1: what kind of stuff he posted on his sites. There 467 00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:53,236 Speaker 1: might be some truth to that, but looking back now, 468 00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 1: Fabian thinks that it could have been different. That profound 469 00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:59,676 Speaker 1: choices were made in the years after he left, big 470 00:29:59,716 --> 00:30:05,796 Speaker 1: misjudgments with big repercussions. I think that's really weird when 471 00:30:05,876 --> 00:30:09,436 Speaker 1: wrong with complacency. Yeah, they just didn't care, thought they 472 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 1: didn't have to care. This was a big mistake. And 473 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:15,276 Speaker 1: then when they started to get approached by people they 474 00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:18,316 Speaker 1: can't They thought they didn't have to care about them, 475 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 1: and that was their mistake. And then it just blew up. 476 00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:28,156 Speaker 1: Why didn't they have to care? Why didn't tub sides 477 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:31,796 Speaker 1: have to care about hosting pirated videos or care about 478 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,356 Speaker 1: what was in them. We've been really caught up in 479 00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:37,156 Speaker 1: the question of who rules porn in the digital age? 480 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 1: Is it fabian BB? But we've been neglecting a bigger 481 00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 1: question hiding behind that one. How is so much porn 482 00:30:45,316 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 1: online at all? And how is it making so much 483 00:30:48,036 --> 00:30:52,276 Speaker 1: money for the sides that hosted. To answer that, we 484 00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:54,996 Speaker 1: have to go back to the twentieth century, to the 485 00:30:55,036 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 1: age of the modem. The only thing people will pay 486 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: for is sex. People are horny, people are purient, people 487 00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:07,716 Speaker 1: want to see images of other naked people. It's just 488 00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:29,956 Speaker 1: human nature. That's next time on Hot Money. Hot Money 489 00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:32,916 Speaker 1: is a production of The Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. 490 00:31:33,236 --> 00:31:36,076 Speaker 1: It was written or reported by me Patricia Elson and 491 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:40,436 Speaker 1: me Alex Barker. Peter Sale is our lead producer and 492 00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:45,076 Speaker 1: sound designer. Edith Russolo is our associate producer. Our editor 493 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:50,556 Speaker 1: is Karen Shakurji. Amanda ka Wong is our engineer. Music 494 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:55,836 Speaker 1: composition by Pascal Wise, fact checking by Andrea Lopez Kusado. 495 00:31:56,396 --> 00:32:01,036 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein. Special 496 00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 1: thanks to Renee Kaplan and Ruler Kalov at The Financial 497 00:32:03,796 --> 00:32:09,036 Speaker 1: Times and Mia Lobel, lital Molad, Justine Lang, Julia Bart 498 00:32:09,556 --> 00:32:13,356 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg at Pushkin Industries. Thank you to a 499 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:17,596 Speaker 1: similar Web for providing our web traffic data, and a 500 00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 1: big thanks to Cynthia Omerhu who helped us a lot 501 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:24,116 Speaker 1: with reporting for this episode. If you want more from 502 00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 1: the FT, try our new app featuring eight essential stories 503 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:32,756 Speaker 1: every weekday. Search FT Edit in the iPhone app Store. 504 00:32:33,116 --> 00:32:36,156 Speaker 1: Your first month is free, and it's ninety nine cents 505 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:38,316 Speaker 1: a month for six months after that.