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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV

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Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts. I'm Roscha Pequerrero.

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Speaker 3: And I'm the Evet Gentila and here, as always, we're

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Speaker 3: with our producer, mister Trevor Young.

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Speaker 1: Hi there. I hope you're surviving the heat. Everyone barely trying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's bad, but it's just right after a labor day.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to throw out one thing that I

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Speaker 1: did this past weekend. And I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: guys have ever been to anything like this, but I

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Speaker 1: went to a nerd con called dragon Con. It's in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta every year. Have you heard of it.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about this, and I'm so

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Speaker 2: happy that you brought it up because I saw it

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Speaker 2: in your stories and I'm like, what is dragon Con?

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Speaker 2: Please tell me all the things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's a con like comic Con or you know,

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Speaker 1: anything like that, but it is very different. It's more

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Speaker 1: of like a party. So instead of having like a

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Speaker 1: big expo haul with all these you know, companies and

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Speaker 1: Marvel and whoever, like showing whatever their new shows and

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Speaker 1: movies are, which is kind of like what comic Con

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Speaker 1: usually is. Instead, it's just like for the fans entirely,

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Speaker 1: so people dress up. It's like thousands and thousands of

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Speaker 1: people and it really consumes the entirety of downtown Atlanta

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Speaker 1: for like five days during Labor Day weekend.

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Speaker 2: Wow, did you dress up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I had. I had a few outfits. It's it's weird.

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Speaker 1: It's like you can go in normal clothes, but I

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Speaker 1: feel like you're missing out, a missing out on a

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Speaker 1: big part of the fun if you do that.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, what did you go as?

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Speaker 1: I only did two outfits that I kind of recyct

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Speaker 1: go throughout the weekend. One of them was a character

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Speaker 1: from the new movie Everything Everywhere, All at Once, which

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Speaker 1: is he's like a chef and he's like controlled by

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Speaker 1: a raccoon on his head. It's like a spoof of Retitui.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, right right, And then Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.

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Speaker 1: Which is really easy. You just like wear a suit,

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Speaker 1: slick your hair back and put on a poncho.

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Speaker 2: Pictures or it didn't happen, Trevor. We need to see yo,

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Speaker 2: see your outfit changes.

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Speaker 1: Well, next year you guys are going to Dragon Con.

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Speaker 1: Let me make it happen. Maybe we can do a

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Speaker 1: live episode from Dragon Content.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, that would be epic. Can't wait, Trevor,

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Speaker 3: mm hmm. So Trevor, with that, will you please take

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Speaker 3: us through today's case.

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Speaker 4: In Texas and the trial of one of the man

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Speaker 4: chars with ragging to death a black man simply because

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Speaker 4: of his race. The testimony today was devastating. The suspect

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Speaker 4: racial hatred was so deep and threatening and well known

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Speaker 4: to his friends.

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Speaker 5: When I found out that my dad was brutally killed

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Speaker 5: by three white supremacists, I was in denial.

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Speaker 1: I was the numb first.

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Speaker 4: William Hoover, who served time in prison with King, testified

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Speaker 4: that King discussed abducting a black man and killing him

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Speaker 4: to win membership in a racist game.

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Speaker 1: James Bird Junior was a forty nine year old black

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Speaker 1: man from Texas who was killed by three white supremacists

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety eight, in the early morning hours of

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Speaker 1: June seventh, James was walking home from his parents' house

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Speaker 1: in rural Jasper County after attending a bridal shower for

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Speaker 1: his niece. He was offered a ride by three white

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Speaker 1: men in a pickup truck, Shawn Berry, Lawrence Brewer, and

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Speaker 1: John King. The three men did not take Bird home. Instead,

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Speaker 1: they drove him to a logging road just outside of town,

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Speaker 1: where they beat and tortured James to death. Then they

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Speaker 1: left his lifeless body in front of a church. The

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Speaker 1: murder of James Burg Junior shocked the nation. Many had

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Speaker 1: believed that such brutal racial attacks like this were part

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Speaker 1: of its Jim crow erab past, and the case sparked

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Speaker 1: new conversations about lynchings and helped pave the way for

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Speaker 1: updated hate crimes legislation. And So, what happened to James

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Speaker 1: Bird Junior, How did his death serve as a wake

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Speaker 1: up call for the country, And what lessons about racism

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Speaker 1: and violence can we learn today from this difficult story.

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Speaker 2: So as a reminder, we briefly heard about the case

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Speaker 2: of James Bird Junior on the Matthew Shepherd episode. So

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Speaker 2: both cases involved a brutal killing, which were considered hate crimes.

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Speaker 2: They both happened in the same year, and they were

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Speaker 2: both included on a key piece of legislation.

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Speaker 3: But unlike Matthew, this case has a key difference. We

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Speaker 3: all knew that prejudice thing gets gay people was a

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Speaker 3: thing back in the nineties, and that violence was a

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Speaker 3: very real possibility for queer people, but we didn't think

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Speaker 3: that lynchings were still happening. But sadly we learn that

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Speaker 3: lynchings are not a relic of the past in this country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately, no. And just quickly, when I think of

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Speaker 2: a lynching, right, I think of a racially motivated murder,

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Speaker 2: you know, I immediately picture those horrible you know photos

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Speaker 2: of you know, the KKK, or these horrible white perpetrators

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Speaker 2: who like basically celebrated these lynchings.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: It just makes you sick to your stomach, like in

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Speaker 3: the pit of your stomach.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, I mean, honestly, this case kind

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Speaker 1: of does end up looking like that, and it is

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Speaker 1: one of many that still happens in today's modern era.

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Speaker 1: I mean, between eighteen eighty two and nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 1: the NAACP said that there were four thousand, seven hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty three reported lynchings in the United States and

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Speaker 1: just reported, so there were almost certainly even more than that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean definitely not over. I mean, Trevor,

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Speaker 3: when I hear that, I think right away about Ahmud Aubrey,

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Speaker 3: the young man who was killed in twenty twenty, and

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Speaker 3: he was just you know, jogging through a white, affluent

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Speaker 3: neighborhood and this happened, you know, in Savannah, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and broad daylight, I mean.

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Speaker 3: In broad daylight twenty twenty. Here we are again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I know they classified a mad Arbory's

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Speaker 1: death as a lynching. They still do happen, even as

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Speaker 1: recently as twenty twenty. And I'm sure lots of things

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Speaker 1: we don't hear about even happening this year. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why we're here talking about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about James Burr Junior. He

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Speaker 2: was a forty nine year old black man who was

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Speaker 2: born and raised in Jasper County, Texas. He came from

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Speaker 2: a religious family. His mother was a Sunday school teacher

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Speaker 2: and his father was a deacon. He graduated from high

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Speaker 2: school in nineteen sixty seven, and his school was the

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Speaker 2: last segregated graduating class in the entire high school. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, he grew up under the Jim Crow laws

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Speaker 2: in Texas. I can only imagine what that was like

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Speaker 2: for him and for so many others, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, coming from a small town like you know, Jasper, Texas,

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Speaker 3: where the population was only eight thousand, two hundred and

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Speaker 3: forty seven. I mean it's a small community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Well, anyway, he ended up getting married and

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Speaker 2: he had three children with his wife, and he worked

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Speaker 2: as a vacuum salesman, and like many Americans at the time,

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Speaker 2: he struggled with alcoholism. In the nineteen nineties, he even

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Speaker 2: spent a brief period in jail for petty theft, and

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Speaker 2: during his time in jail, he and his wife got divorced.

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Speaker 2: He was released in nineteen ninety six, and at this

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Speaker 2: point he was basically in the pro of rebuilding his life.

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Speaker 1: Right, So at this point he's back in Jasper County

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Speaker 1: and he's in AA Alcoholics Anonymous, and according to one

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Speaker 1: report quote, his friends and family described him as a

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Speaker 1: friendly father and grandfather who was charismatic, musically talented, and generally.

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Speaker 2: Well liked, So this is where he's at on June seventh,

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight. He's rebuilding his life. So on this

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Speaker 2: particular night, it was really late between two and three

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Speaker 2: in the morning, and he was walking home from his parents'

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Speaker 2: house and he had been attending a family bridal shower.

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Speaker 2: So that's when he was offered a ride home by

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Speaker 2: three white strangers in a pickup truck. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: And he had, like you said, he had just come

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Speaker 3: from this party and I was watching the documentary and

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Speaker 3: like he was singing and dancing and like just having

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Speaker 3: like such a great time, you know, and decided to

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Speaker 3: leave and you know, walk home, you know, because again

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Speaker 3: they're in a small town, right. But a witness named

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Speaker 3: Steve Scott was driving home around that same time, and

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Speaker 3: he said that he saw Bird walking along Martin Luther

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Speaker 3: King Drive and a few minutes later he saw James again.

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Speaker 3: This time he was riding in the bed of a

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Speaker 3: pickup truck with three white men in the cab. So

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Speaker 3: maybe he knew these guys.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, but Steve Scott didn't realize the significance of what

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Speaker 2: he was seeing at the time. But Steve was the

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Speaker 2: last person ever to see James Bird Junior alive, and we'll.

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Speaker 1: Pick it up right after we take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: So James Bird Junior was familiar with one of the

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Speaker 2: three white men that offered him a ride home that night,

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Speaker 2: and so now that makes a little bit more sense

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Speaker 2: in my mind as to why he jumped in the

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Speaker 2: back of this particular pickup truck. So the man that

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Speaker 2: he knew was twenty three year old Sean Berry, who

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Speaker 2: happened to own the truck. With were John King who

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Speaker 2: was also twenty three, and thirty one year old Lawrence Brewer.

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Speaker 2: And we do know though, that the three men did

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Speaker 2: not drive James home that night, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as we said at the beginning of the episode,

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Speaker 1: they drove him out to a logging road just outside

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Speaker 1: of town and there they beat him, They defecated and

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Speaker 1: urinated on him, and then they chained him to the

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Speaker 1: truck by his ankles using a heavy logging chain and

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Speaker 1: that's when they started to drive. And they drove for

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Speaker 1: nearly three miles down Huff Creek Road, dragging James behind

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Speaker 1: his truck without stopping. So after about a mile and

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Speaker 1: a half, his body hit a culvert and that is

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Speaker 1: what eventually killed him. The three men took james remains

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Speaker 1: and then they left him right in front of a

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Speaker 1: predominantly black church.

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Speaker 3: This is just so sickening. It's like, I don't even

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Speaker 3: have the words to think that this man was alive

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Speaker 3: while being dragged behind this truck for a mile and

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Speaker 3: a half.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we know that he didn't die until

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Speaker 1: he hit that colvert, So yeah, you know, for as

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Speaker 1: long as I took he was being essentially like tortured,

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Speaker 1: being dragged along the ground for that long. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there was there was a documentary that

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Speaker 3: I was watching with his oldest daughter, Renee, and she's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, my dad was so strong, she was saying,

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Speaker 3: because you know he was he was literally trying to

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Speaker 3: hold his elbows, you know, up from the ground like

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Speaker 3: he was. He was trying, you know, to save himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but he couldn't.

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Speaker 1: It's just horrible.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've known about what happened to James, but

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Speaker 2: even just hearing you say that word for word, Tchever,

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Speaker 2: it it like, you know, it puts a pit in

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Speaker 2: your stomach right, like you just you feel just so sick.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the one ironic fact that you did mention, Trevor,

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Speaker 2: is that they did leave. You know, James's remains at

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Speaker 2: a predominantly black church, and that church was Hoff Creek

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Speaker 2: Memorial Chapel. And this church was actually the last remaining

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Speaker 2: anchor site of the Huff Creek community, which was what

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Speaker 2: was called or what was known as a freedom community

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Speaker 2: for black people after the Civil War. And so the

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Speaker 2: residents of this community were all former slaves and they

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Speaker 2: built their own homes, their own businesses, their own schools,

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Speaker 2: and their own churches. And they did that all using

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Speaker 2: the very limited resources that they had. And freedom communities

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Speaker 2: existed all over the South, and they were places for

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Speaker 2: black people to exist and thrive safely, and they were

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Speaker 2: usually located in relatively unsafe places during those decades of terror,

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Speaker 2: places like for County, Texas. And by nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 2: there was essentially just this one church that was left

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Speaker 2: and that was the only remnant of that legacy, and

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Speaker 2: that's where his body was left.

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Speaker 1: Do y all think that was on purpose? Do you

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Speaker 1: think they did this as a as a kind of slight.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a part of me that absolutely thinks,

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Speaker 3: you know, that it was on purpose. You know, you

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Speaker 3: could say it was a sad irony, but I believe

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Speaker 3: someone in that truck knew what they were doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if nothing else, it says a lot

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Speaker 1: about the politics of you know, Jasper County and the

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Speaker 1: kind of history that has taken place there. Right, you

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Speaker 1: have like two sides of an issue that have been

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Speaker 1: going on for decades are that are both very much alive.

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Speaker 2: There's a rich racist history in Jasper County, Texas, at

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Speaker 2: least that's what it seems like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then also resilience towards that racism. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: right now, both the racism and the resilience are both

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Speaker 1: there in full effect by this nineties. Still, so moving on,

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Speaker 1: they left James Bird's remains, and then the three men,

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Speaker 1: James Berry, Lawrence Brewer, and John King left to go

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Speaker 1: to a barbecue, and James Bird's body was later found

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Speaker 1: that morning by a driver who was passing by. So

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Speaker 1: authorities then started to search the area, and they found

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Speaker 1: a bunch of items strewn about the area belonging both

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Speaker 1: to James and to his murders. They find a lighter

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Speaker 1: with the word possum inscribed on it, and apparently that

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Speaker 1: was King's prison nickname. They also find a wrench that

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Speaker 1: has Barry's name on it, and Barry was the truck driver.

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Speaker 1: So then at the end of the logging road they

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Speaker 1: find an apparent scene of a fight or beating. It

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Speaker 1: was like some sort of kind of indent in the

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Speaker 1: grass or something like that where you could tell some

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Speaker 1: sort of scuffle it happened. The grass was like matted down,

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Speaker 1: and in that kind of matted area they find a

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Speaker 1: cigarette lighter engraved with the words possum and also KKK,

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Speaker 1: as well as another tool with Barry's name on it.

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Speaker 1: And then they find three cigarette butts, beer bottles, a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of things from that truck, and then a

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Speaker 1: button from James Bird shirt and his baseball caps. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're a police officer, this is a

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Speaker 1: pretty obvious scene.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, this is this is a slam dunk

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Speaker 3: because these guys were not very good at covering up

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Speaker 3: their tracks. But it makes me wonder if they were

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Speaker 3: even trying. And that's what I was saying earlier, right,

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Speaker 3: It's like it seems like they definitely, or at least

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Speaker 3: one of them knew what they were doing, you know,

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Speaker 3: to James Bird. So I know that during this time,

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Speaker 3: people in the area are starting to hear about the crime,

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Speaker 3: and this man, Steve Scott, walks in and you talked

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Speaker 3: about Steve Scott earlier Russia, right, the witness, the witness exactly,

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Speaker 3: And again my thought goes back to somebody in that

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Speaker 3: truck deliberately knew what.

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Speaker 2: They were doing. They weren't trying to cover it up

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Speaker 2: very much.

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Speaker 3: No, they were not trying to cover it up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And around that same time police also happened to stop

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Speaker 2: Sean Berry for a traffic violation. So inside Sean's truck

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Speaker 2: they find a crucial piece of evidence, a set of

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Speaker 2: tools matching the wrench that was found at the end

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Speaker 2: of the logging road. So they arrest Berry and confiscate

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Speaker 2: the truck, and then they find more. They find blood

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Speaker 2: spatters underneath the truck and on one of its tires,

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Speaker 2: matching James Bird's DNA, and then in the truck bed

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Speaker 2: they find blood on a spare tire, which is also

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Speaker 2: a match. And then finally in the truck bed itself

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Speaker 2: there's a rust stain forming in the pattern of a chain.

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Speaker 3: Right, So there's all this evidence mounting here, and these

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Speaker 3: guys are also really outspoken white supremacists.

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Speaker 2: They don't hide it.

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Speaker 3: They're not hiding it. It's like it's like when a

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Speaker 3: you know, a gang member does a hit, and this

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Speaker 3: is the biggest gang the KKK. Somebody out of the

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Speaker 3: three of them is trying to make a statement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So this goes back to your theory of

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Speaker 1: it that you know, one or all of them knew

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Speaker 1: what they were doing when they killed jamespur Junior. So

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Speaker 1: after they arrest them, they kind of start to learn

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Speaker 1: all of these things about them which prove that they

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Speaker 1: very much intended to do this and had very racist

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Speaker 1: leanings that would motivate them to do so. So two

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Speaker 1: of these guys, Lawrence Brewer John King, according to documents,

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Speaker 1: John King, who was twenty three, refused to go into

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Speaker 1: a black person's home and would even leave a party

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Speaker 1: if a black individual arrived at said party. Wow. And

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Speaker 1: in prison he was known as quote the Exalted Cyclops

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Speaker 1: of the Confederate Knights America. I mean, wow, the bell's

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Speaker 1: going off. Yeah, right, So obviously that's a white supremacist gang.

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Speaker 1: And then Brewer is also associated with a another white

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Speaker 1: supremacy group. In prison, both of them have their bodies

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Speaker 1: covered in racist tattoos, incorporating both KKK and Nazi imagery,

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Speaker 1: and so understandably, the FBI quickly deems that James Burr

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Speaker 1: Junior's death is a hate crime.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely right, absolutely, no doubt this is a hate crime.

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Speaker 3: But I also want to point out something in their

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Speaker 3: court photos, where you know, they're all cleaned up. They

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Speaker 3: look perfectly normal, right, They're trying to appear perfectly normal,

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Speaker 3: like ordinary guys, which makes me think of how people

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Speaker 3: who commit acts of racism, I mean, from small acts

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Speaker 3: to atrocious ones like this one, you know, and this

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Speaker 3: was horrible, beyond horrible. They don't necessary look like TV villains.

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Speaker 2: Right, but what does evil look like? Right?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 2: What does that look like like? I'm sure they were

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Speaker 2: wearing suits that were covering up all of their racist

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Speaker 2: tattoos or tatts and everything. Yeah, yeah, what do you think, Trevor.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they can hide it if they need

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Speaker 1: to for a court appearance and whatever else. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess the point maybe to be made there is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, really racism can be found anywhere, and even

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Speaker 1: in places you don't expect it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So shifting gears a little bit. So

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Speaker 2: these three guys were all roommates. So they were roommates who,

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Speaker 2: as you know you pointed out Evett, apparently could not

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Speaker 2: cover up a crime to save their lives, or they

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Speaker 2: were doing that on purpose. We don't really, they didn't

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Speaker 2: want to, or they didn't want to. And police end

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Speaker 2: up searching their apartment and still they find even more evidence. So,

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is going to be a surprise to

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Speaker 2: no one. But they found racist drawings and writing made

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Speaker 2: by King, and more crucially, they find their clothing and

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Speaker 2: their shoes that they were wearing the night that this

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Speaker 2: all happened, and DNA analysis reveals that the jeans and

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Speaker 2: boots worn by Barry that night were stained with blood

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Speaker 2: matching James Bird Junior's DNA. And then there's another very

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Speaker 2: large piece of evidence. A friend of the three men

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Speaker 2: told police that the men hung out behind his trailer

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Speaker 2: a lot, and when they searched that area behind the trailer,

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Speaker 2: they found the twenty four foot logging chain that matched

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Speaker 2: the rust imprint in Sean Berry's truck bed.

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Speaker 3: Geez, god, you know, I think about this in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety eight, and I was thinking about where I was living,

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Speaker 3: and I was in Oregon, and you know, my dad

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Speaker 3: was living in Oregon as well. And just the fact

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Speaker 3: that this was happening in nineteen ninety eight was beyond

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Speaker 3: anything that we could even call brehend. You know, this

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Speaker 3: was through and through torture.

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Speaker 1: I do think the one maybe silver lining to this

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Speaker 1: taking place in a slightly more modern context like nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight is that even though you wouldn't expect something

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Speaker 1: like this to happen in this time, one thing that's

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Speaker 1: different is that you're a lot more likely to see consequence. Yes, right, right,

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Speaker 1: So these people are very quickly identified, they're captured, they

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Speaker 1: are sent to prison, right like, They face consequences pretty fast.

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Speaker 1: Whereas you know, in Jim Crow.

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Speaker 5: Era that might yeah, yeah, I mean you would have

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Speaker 5: had probably a very racist, all white jury police force

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Speaker 5: that would have done whatever it took to see these

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Speaker 5: guys to either get off or maybe even avoid getting arrested.

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Speaker 3: In very true, very true, Trevor. They got on this

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Speaker 3: right away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was the silver lining. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: the three men are indicted together on capital murder charges.

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Speaker 2: But as the trial begins, crucial cracks begin to form

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Speaker 2: between the three roommates. Cracks that would impact the rest

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Speaker 2: of their lives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets a little bit dramatic, and we'll talk

387
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Speaker 1: about that right after we take another quick break.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So the trial for the lynching of James Bird Junior

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Speaker 3: begins February nineteen ninety nine, and one of the first

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Speaker 3: questions asked I have to ask you this, Trevor, is

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Speaker 3: why can you take us through this one? I mean,

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Speaker 3: we know that they're white supremacists, but what moved them

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Speaker 3: to commit this heinous? Heinous act?

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, I am never going to try and

396
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Speaker 1: empathize or get in the mind of a violent, murderous racist,

397
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Speaker 1: but we do know like what they were planning based

398
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Speaker 1: off of their writings and things that they had told

399
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Speaker 1: other people. So those writings that they found in John

400
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: King's apartment were very important, according to the prosecution. They

401
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: included plans for a new hate group that he was

402
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: trying to form and recruit for. So the murder was

403
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Speaker 1: supposedly his big sort of dramatic act that he would

404
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Speaker 1: use to attract media attention and bring in new members

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Speaker 1: who would want to join his group.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: Oh so gross. So this jury had something else to consider.

408
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 2: So Sean Berry, the roommate of these two write supremacists

409
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Speaker 2: and the man who owned the pickup truck that dragged

410
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Speaker 2: James Bird Junior. He had made a statement to police,

411
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Speaker 2: and here's what he said, that John King had not

412
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Speaker 2: wanted to pick up James Bird because he was black,

413
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Speaker 2: but then King changed his mind. So Barry said that

414
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Speaker 2: King was the one who drove the truck to that

415
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Speaker 2: isolated area, and that Brewer and King, not him, were

416
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Speaker 2: the ones who got out and began beating Bird, eventually

417
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Speaker 2: chaining him to the back of the truck.

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Speaker 3: So he puts it all on the other two right,

419
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Speaker 3: right as a bystander. Okay, yeah, right, what a great friend.

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Speaker 3: But this just reminds me, and we can go back

421
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: to the Matthew Shepherd case. How one of his two killers,

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Speaker 3: which was Russell Henderson, basically said it was the other guy.

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Speaker 3: So it's the same thing happening all over again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so somebody else throwing them under the.

425
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: Bus, right, but they're all responsible.

426
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that said apparently in this case. You know,

427
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Speaker 1: Sean Berry is supposedly the only one who's not like

428
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: a vowed white supremacist, right, most people don't see him

429
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Speaker 1: that way. He doesn't have any sort of weird letters

430
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Speaker 1: or plans or manifestos to like start a white supremacist

431
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 1: group like the other guys do. So it's possible somehow

432
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Speaker 1: he just ended up along for the ride the night

433
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Speaker 1: this night, and you know, the other two took the

434
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Speaker 1: lead in the violence, you know, and just kind of

435
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Speaker 1: going back to Matthew Shepherd, I mean, that was kind

436
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: of a thing for real that night that Aaron McKinney

437
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: was the one calling the shots, so to speak, right, right,

438
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: And I think maybe that is actually a thing that

439
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: happens in these kind of group dynamics where there's this

440
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: sort of you know, group violence that takes place where

441
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: one or two people are the ones who are really

442
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: the driving aggressors, if you will, right, right, So, I

443
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: don't think it's impossible, but it definitely starts to create

444
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: rifts in this group as a result. Right.

445
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: And to me, though, like I mean, I think we

446
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 2: can all three agree that it doesn't make him any

447
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: less guilty because he let it happen, right, But yes,

448
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: you're right, like he wasn't the you know, white supremacist

449
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: that we know of, but he didn't stop it. Like, yeah,

450
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 2: he might have made this statement, but he didn't do

451
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: anything to stop it. Yeah.

452
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: Well, Also keep in mind it was his truck, right.

453
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: Right, right, that bears his responsibility and his liability, right.

454
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 1: And I mean generally though, it suggest that he was

455
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: the one driving, you know, even if he says he wasn't.

456
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: Right, but he so knew James too.

457
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: That's probably why James felt comfortable getting in that truck.

458
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 3: Hello, That's what I'm saying. You know, why would he

459
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: get into a truck on a dark road walking home

460
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: if he didn't know the people.

461
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 2: With three white men in Jasper, Texas.

462
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not like he's unaware of racial prejudice and

463
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: where he's living, right.

464
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Barry's a weird character in the story because he

465
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: I mean, he knew what they were going to do

466
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: and he went along with it anyways, So right, I

467
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: don't know, it seems like he put James Bird Junior

468
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: in harm's way, either neglectfully or intentionally. And at the

469
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: end of the day, I mean, I doubt anybody here

470
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: has a ton of sympathy for him or where he

471
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: ends up.

472
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry, I knew not.

473
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 3: I was watching this documentary and it's called The Life

474
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: and tragic death of James Bird, and it was on

475
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 3: Amazon Prime and one of the women you know, from

476
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: that community in Jasper was being interviewed. She knew the

477
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 3: family very well, and she said that, you know, James,

478
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: you know, was likable. He didn't have anybody that hated him.

479
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: And she felt like if it would have been anybody

480
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 3: black like walking the streets that night, that it possibly

481
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: could have happened. She said, it could have happened to me,

482
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 3: you know, and that was that was interesting. So when

483
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 3: we go back to you know, white supremacist, you know,

484
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: I think that there is that possibility that they were

485
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 3: just you know, or the other guy was just out

486
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: to pick up a black person and do this to them,

487
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: and James Bird happened to be in the wrong place

488
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 3: at the wrong time.

489
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

490
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's talk about the trial. So the jury

491
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: heard from a forensic pathologist with some kind of chilling testimony,

492
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: And if you're listening, we're about to get into some

493
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: gruesome details of the murder itself. So if you are

494
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: sensitive to that sort of thing, I'd recommend you skip

495
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: ahead about thirty to forty five seconds. So doctor Thomas J.

496
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: Brown testified that James Bird Junior was indeed alive while

497
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: being dragged behind the pickup truck, and that he was

498
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: quote suffering horribly and vainly trying to save himself as

499
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: he was dragged along by the chain attached to his ankles,

500
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: and so parts of his body were also so severely

501
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: mutilated from the dragging that they were ground to the bone,

502
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: and James apparently felt every second of it because he

503
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: was still alive. So doctor Brown told the court that, quote,

504
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: it is my opinion that mister Bird was alive up

505
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: until the point that he hit the culvert. He was

506
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: alive when the head, shoulder, and right arm were separated. Wow.

507
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: So of course that happened when he hit the colvert,

508
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: which is basically just like a roadside ditch, about halfway

509
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: through that three mile ordeal, and then he was essentially

510
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: kind of bisected at that point.

511
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: It's a lot, yeah, you know, and like I said earlier,

512
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 3: I mean, he was fighting for his life until he

513
00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: couldn't anymore.

514
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: I mean before we dove into this case, you know.

515
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: Of course, you know, we learned a little bit about

516
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: it when we did the Matthew Shepherd episode. But all

517
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: I had ever heard, like a news or Metea or

518
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 2: anything was that. You know, James Bird Junior was dragged

519
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 2: behind a truck and decapitated, and it's like, it's so

520
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: much worse than that. And to think that someone or

521
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: some people could do that just because of the color

522
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: of his skin makes me sick to my stomach. And

523
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's why we're here. We're trying to

524
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,719
Speaker 2: shine a light on that darkness. But who HiT's a

525
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: lot to stomach, It's a whole lot to stomach. Meanwhile,

526
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: John King is unrepentant, and police detectives say that he

527
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: had spent his time in jail writing racist graffiti and

528
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: he even wrote on his door the words and this

529
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: is a quote, Sean Berry is a snitch ash trader

530
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: end quote. He also writes a note to Brewer in

531
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: prison that ends up getting intercepted, and in this note

532
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: he says he's proud of the crime, although he realized

533
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: he quote might have to die for it end quote.

534
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: He never truly confessed though, right.

535
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: No, this was not a confession, and he didn't testify

536
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: at the nineteen ninety nine trial, although in a letter

537
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: to the press he put a bunch of things on

538
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: Sean Berry claiming that Barry picked up Bird to buy

539
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: steroids from him, and that Barry then dropped King and

540
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: Brewer off at their apartment and then left again with Bird,

541
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: just the two of them. In this letter, he claims

542
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: that he and Brewer are being stereotyped for quote the

543
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: pride we openly express for our race end quote. So yeah,

544
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: he pleads not guilty in the trial, although that note

545
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: is bizarre, but the one about Sean Berry not making

546
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: any sense. Nothing in the alibis of all three men

547
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: would suggest that any of that information is true. And

548
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: then the note suggesting that he's going to have to

549
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: die for the crime that he did is somehow not

550
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 1: considered a confession, but I don't know what It's some

551
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: interesting stuff going on. Still, though the three of them

552
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: are charged with murder, and King and Brewer get death sentences.

553
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: Both were executed by a lethal injection, Brewer in twenty

554
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: eleven and King in twenty nineteen. Barry, on the other hand,

555
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: was sentenced to life in prison and his parole is

556
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: set for twenty thirty eight. One interesting thing is that

557
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: many of James Burge Junior's family members were opposed to

558
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: the death sentences. They did not want his murders to

559
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: be killed by lethal injection. And they were very outspoken

560
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: about this.

561
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were, and they are. And not only were

562
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: they opposed, James's son actively campaigned against his father's murder

563
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: is receiving the death penalty, and his daughter, Renee and

564
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: other family members denounced it so loudly. And in twenty eleven,

565
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: after Brewer was executed, James's sister, Betty Boehner told CNN

566
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: that she quote forgave him thirteen years ago end quote.

567
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: At this time, James's son actually joined anti execution protests, saying, quote,

568
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: you can't fight murder with murder. That's pretty amazing that

569
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: their family is that forgiving, in that passionate about trying

570
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: to save lives, even when their their father's life was

571
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: taken from them.

572
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think if I was going through that sort

573
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: of grief, I don't know if I'd have that sort

574
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: of you know, levelheadedness or not. You know, obviously, like

575
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: my brain says, like, you know, capital punishment is bad,

576
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: But if I was actually going through that, like my

577
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: emotions would be like screaming at me to like get

578
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: revenge essentially, you know, right, So it's pretty fun nominal

579
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: that they can get past that in this moment.

580
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: I just have to say one thing. You know, his

581
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 3: family was very deep in the church, and I think

582
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: their faith and their religion and God, you know, was

583
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: a huge thing in this because you know, you can't

584
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: fight hate with hate, right.

585
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. It's interesting. In two

586
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: thousand and three, which is about five years after their

587
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: dad's murder, James Bird's son and daughter actually went to

588
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: go meet Sean Berry in prison and talk to him

589
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: about their dad and the murder and everything that went down.

590
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: So whereber Sean Berry's in prison for life at this point,

591
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: He's probably not getting executed, but he does have parole

592
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: in like fifteen years.

593
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't seem like it's that far away. Ross

594
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: Bird said that he told Sean Berry quote, you should

595
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: have helped end quote. And they ended up praying together,

596
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: and he said, quote when I walked in the building,

597
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: that's the first thing he did. He wanted to pray.

598
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: And you know, I respect him for that. I respect

599
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: him for saying that he was sorry. End quote.

600
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 3: That's such a powerful act of forgiveness. The Bird family

601
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 3: has endured such immense pain. Again, we can't even comprehend,

602
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 3: you know, but to walk into that prison and pray

603
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: with this man is you know, that is the silver lining.

604
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 3: And forgive and forgive and forgive.

605
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, another silver lining that came from this horrible crime.

606
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: You know, as we talked about in the Matthew Shepherd episode.

607
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: In October of two thousand and nine, then President Barack

608
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: Obama signed the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird Junior Hate

609
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: Crimes Prevention Act into federal law, and this law expanded

610
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 2: hate crime legislation to also include crimes based on sexual orientation,

611
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: gender identity, or disability.

612
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 3: Also, in Jasper, Texas, they had a graveyard that was

613
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: still segregated back then, and after this horrific act happened,

614
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: they took down that fence and so there was no

615
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 3: more division between white and black.

616
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: So that was that was huge as well. That's absolutely beautiful,

617
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: and that brings us to this week's emua, our final

618
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: message of hope and healing. We'd like to dedicate this

619
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 2: week's emua to the ohana or the family of James

620
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: Bird Junior. In the years since her father's unjust death.

621
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: One of James's daughter's Renee Mullins has become an advocate

622
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: for hate crimes legislation, and she and her brother, Ross

623
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: Bird are still fighting the death penalty even in cases

624
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,479
Speaker 2: that feel unforgivable. Also, James's other daughter, Jamie, has become

625
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: a police officer in Houston, Texas and has written a

626
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: book titled Triumph Over Tragedy.

627
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: It is said that when you hold on to bitterness

628
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 3: and anger, those emotions only end up turning against you

629
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: and against all odds. James Byrd's family they found fortitude,

630
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: and they found a grace that turned their sorrow into

631
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: a fight for change, and that source of that fight

632
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 3: is love and forgiveness.

633
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: This horrific murder never should have happened. They should not

634
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 2: have lost their father, their brother, their son, their friend.

635
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: But they have taken that loss and that hurt and

636
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: turned it into something so beautiful and so much larger

637
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: than themselves. And for this we honor them on and upward.

638
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 2: Em Emua.

639
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: Well, that is our show for today, and we'd love

640
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: to hear what you thought about today's discussion And if

641
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: there is a case you'd like us to cover, find

642
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: us on social media or email us at Facingevil Pod

643
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: at Tenderfoot dot tv and one request. If you haven't already,

644
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 3: please find us on iTunes and give us a review

645
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 3: and a good rating. If you like what we do,

646
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 3: your support is always cherished until next time.

647
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 2: Aloha.

648
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and tenderfoot TV.

649
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Paccuerero in a Vet Schintila,

650
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf

651
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald

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Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.

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Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on

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Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facing Evil pod at

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Speaker 1: tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows