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Speaker 1: Pushkin. If you listen to this podcast regularly, you know

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Speaker 1: there are lots of quick things you can do to

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Speaker 1: make yourself a little happier. Get a bit of extra sleep, say,

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Speaker 1: or take some time for exercise. But there is one

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Speaker 1: way to improve your mood that could literally be staring

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Speaker 1: you right in the face this very second. There are

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Speaker 1: seven point seven billion people in the world, and talking

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Speaker 1: to just one of them can often make you feel

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Speaker 1: so much better. Social interaction is usually available all around us,

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Speaker 1: but many of us, even in the busiest cities, can

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Speaker 1: go a whole day without properly engaging with another human being.

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Speaker 1: I'll admit I sometimes hide away from social situations too.

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Speaker 1: I skip work gatherings to stay at home. I eat

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Speaker 1: by myself when I'm on a train or plane. I

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Speaker 1: often check emails on my phone rather than starting a

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Speaker 1: conversation with a stranger. I repeatedly fall for the lie

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Speaker 1: of the mind that talking to people will be awkward, annoying,

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Speaker 1: or just training. So when I put out a call

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Speaker 1: for listener questions, I was really glad to see that

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Speaker 1: so many of you were also looking for ways to

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Speaker 1: master the art of becoming more socially connected and making

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Speaker 1: new friends. I was also thrilled that I'd have a

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Speaker 1: chance to bring in an expert on empathy who just

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Speaker 1: happens to be one of my favorite Happiness Lab all stars.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jamie Zackie. I'm a professor of psychology at Stanford

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Speaker 1: and author of the War for Kindness. Jamie's going to

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Speaker 1: give us a crash course on how to be better

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Speaker 1: at building meaningful social connections. If you're struggling to connect

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Speaker 1: with an abrasive coworker, or if you're feeling like your

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Speaker 1: social skills have atrophied a bit during lockdown, or if

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Speaker 1: you're worried about taking on someone else's misery, never fear,

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Speaker 1: Jamil as always has some great advice. So sit back, relax,

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Speaker 1: and learn how to get out there and interact in

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Speaker 1: the social world. You're listening to the Happiness Lab Listener

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Speaker 1: Questions Special Edition with Me Doctor Laurie Santos. Jimmie, I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited that we have you on the Happiness Lab

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Speaker 1: today because when we put out these questions to listeners,

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Speaker 1: the main thing that we get questions about art how

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Speaker 1: we can deal with social relationships and social connection, how

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Speaker 1: we can increase empathy. It was exactly the stuff that's

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Speaker 1: up your alley, so hopefully that you can help all

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Speaker 1: of us like figure this stuff out. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: feel like for me, the pandemic has put into stark

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Speaker 1: relief both the importance of social connection but also how

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Speaker 1: fraught it can be, Like how out of practice I

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Speaker 1: got very quickly living in the pandemic, because is something

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Speaker 1: you've experienced art seeing the work? Oh my goodness, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I still remember. It's been several months, but my first

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Speaker 1: in person talk and conference after being locked away mostly

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Speaker 1: at home for a year and a half. And I

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Speaker 1: love that stuff. I mean, that's part of why I

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Speaker 1: got into this field, because I love the community. And

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Speaker 1: yet going back it was the most terrifying thing. I

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Speaker 1: literally have fun stage and I actually thought I was

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Speaker 1: going to faint and had to hold on to the

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Speaker 1: podium just to keep myself upright, which is not something

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Speaker 1: that I've ever experienced. I think for so many of us,

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Speaker 1: our social muscles have just atrophied, and it's like taking

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Speaker 1: a cast off. You know, if you've been in a

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Speaker 1: cast for six months, you don't take it off and

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Speaker 1: then immediately try to lift weights. But that's what a

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Speaker 1: lot of us are doing, and I think it's critical

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Speaker 1: for us to be gentle with ourselves and understand that

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Speaker 1: we need to restrengthen, we need to reacclimate to this

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Speaker 1: social world that we have been part of for all

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Speaker 1: of our lives but then abruptly taken out of for

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Speaker 1: a super long time. And so I love this idea

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Speaker 1: of being gentle with ourselves because I think that's what

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Speaker 1: a lot of our questions involve, is this idea of

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Speaker 1: how can we face the challenges that come with resocializing

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Speaker 1: but also be gentle with ourselves in the process. And

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Speaker 1: one of the listeners that we got a question from

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Speaker 1: was really struggling with this idea of connection, especially during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic and some of the changes that happened during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. And she had a question that I found

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Speaker 1: really sad, and so I'm hoping we can help her out.

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Speaker 1: This is Evannah Cole who asked this on Instagram. Avana asks,

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Speaker 1: the pandemic has made it difficult to start a new

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Speaker 1: life in a new country or city. It seems impossible

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Speaker 1: to make meaningful friendships. Loneliness seems inevitable in this post

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Speaker 1: pandemic era. So my question is, can you be happy alone,

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Speaker 1: which was a very sad question. Is I want to

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Speaker 1: pivot from that question and maybe ask kind of what

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Speaker 1: she implied, which is loneliness inevitable right now or are

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Speaker 1: their paths out well? I think it's, first of all,

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Speaker 1: loneliness is totally normal right now, and I resonate completely

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Speaker 1: with what this person is saying. You know what's more

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Speaker 1: boring than water? Water is the most boring beverage on

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Speaker 1: the planet, unless you're thirsty, in which case it is

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Speaker 1: the single most interesting thing on Earth right and I

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Speaker 1: think that we have gone from sort of having water

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Speaker 1: all around us to being in a drought, a social drought,

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Speaker 1: and so it's totally normal to feel lonely. You know.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite parts about the Happiness lab out

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Speaker 1: of many is this theme that you come back to

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Speaker 1: a lot that our minds lie to us, and that

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Speaker 1: those lies make it harder for us to find fulfillment

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Speaker 1: and happiness, and a lot of the lies you talk

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Speaker 1: about pertain to ourselves what will make us feel good

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Speaker 1: or bad in the future. I think that it's important

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Speaker 1: to know that our minds also allied to us about

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Speaker 1: other people, so we systematically think that other people are

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Speaker 1: more judgmental, less friendly, and even more extreme than they

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Speaker 1: really are. We even think that people are way more

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Speaker 1: selfish than they really are. I think. I think Jean

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Speaker 1: Paul Sartre said that hell is other people. I think

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Speaker 1: maybe hell is our imagination of what other people are.

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Speaker 1: But here's the problem. We often interact not with the

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Speaker 1: people who are really out there, but with the people

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Speaker 1: in our minds. And in many cases, instead of interacting

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Speaker 1: with the people in our minds, we stay by ourselves

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Speaker 1: because the scariest thing on earth is to get in

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Speaker 1: an argument or even worse like ask someone out, even

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Speaker 1: on a friend date, and have them reject us out

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Speaker 1: of hand. Right, those experiences are so terrifying that we

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Speaker 1: just stay home because we want to avoid again the

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Speaker 1: mean people we imagine. Here's the even worst part. When

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Speaker 1: we avoid the mean people we imagine, we don't get

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Speaker 1: the data we need to realize that our minds were

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Speaker 1: playing tricks on us all along. We don't get to

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Speaker 1: meet the actual friendly people who might have turned into

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Speaker 1: our new bestie or colleague or business partner, even our

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Speaker 1: new love of our life, well maybe the only love

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Speaker 1: of our life. No, but this is such an important point, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not so much that we're doomed to loneliness. We're

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Speaker 1: doomed maybe to be worried about loneliness or worried about

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Speaker 1: the kinds of things that might make it scary for

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Speaker 1: us to interact with other people. But so much of

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Speaker 1: the data suggested if we could just try it, if

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Speaker 1: we could just take some baby steps and talk to someone.

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Speaker 1: You ask someone out on a friend date. You'll just

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Speaker 1: make that first connection with a stranger where you talk

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Speaker 1: about the weather. It's probably going to go a lot

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Speaker 1: better than we expect. And then we'll start getting the

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Speaker 1: data that you talk about. Right, you can say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't so bad. Yeah. You know, as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I was terrified of the ocean because I always thought

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Speaker 1: that I would get attacked by a shark. You know.

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Speaker 1: Shark attacks turned out to be basically the least common

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Speaker 1: way you can die ever, you know, except don't getting

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Speaker 1: struck by lightning four times in a row. But I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that. And shark attacks loom large in our

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Speaker 1: imagination and change our behavior in a way that we

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Speaker 1: don't really need to change. I think that rejection and

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Speaker 1: mean people are like the shark attacks of the social world,

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Speaker 1: we think way more about them than we need to,

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Speaker 1: and so we adjust our behavior because we think rejection

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Speaker 1: is everywhere. When it turns out, if we just take,

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Speaker 1: as you're saying, that little leap of faith, that little

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Speaker 1: step to put ourselves out there and try to connect,

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Speaker 1: we might be shocked by how accepting and friendly people are,

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Speaker 1: and that might then empower us to take that next

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Speaker 1: step to pull ourselves slowly but surely out of loneliness.

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Speaker 1: And I think one thing, if you're hearing this and

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Speaker 1: you're still feeling like, oh my god, it's the shark

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Speaker 1: attack of rejection is looming really large. I think one

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Speaker 1: thing to know is that the social scientists have data

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Speaker 1: on this right, like they've really looked at when you

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Speaker 1: reach out to somebody and talk to a stranger for

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Speaker 1: the first time, are they going to reject you? Are

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Speaker 1: they going to think it's awkward? Are they going to

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Speaker 1: be annoyed with you? And by and large, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you correct me if I'm wrong, to be able, but

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Speaker 1: my read of the data is no, it's just going

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Speaker 1: to go fine better than okay. Our friend Nick Epley

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Speaker 1: talks about this all the time that when you ask

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Speaker 1: people what would it be like to talk to a

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Speaker 1: stranger today, or even to talk with a friend, but

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Speaker 1: instead of just discussing your day, actually going deep with

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Speaker 1: them and asking what matters to them, what they're struggling with,

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Speaker 1: and telling them what you're struggling with any of those

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Speaker 1: social risks. You ask people what it will be like,

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Speaker 1: and they say, oh, my goodness, it will be the

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Speaker 1: most frightening, worst part of my day. It will be

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Speaker 1: so awkward, it'll be horrible. And then Nick actually gets

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Speaker 1: people to do these things and he says, well, what

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Speaker 1: was that like? And they say, oh, my goodness, was

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Speaker 1: the best part of my day, the most meaningful and

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Speaker 1: connected that I felt in weeks. So again, the data

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Speaker 1: are exactly opposite to our intuitions. And this is one

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Speaker 1: of the cases where I think knowledge is power, because

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Speaker 1: when you know that, hey, I'm scared of that social

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Speaker 1: shark attack, but there aren't that many sharks in the

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Speaker 1: water at least, you know, not right near the beach

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Speaker 1: in Cape Cod, which is where I was always terrified,

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Speaker 1: then you can use that information as fuel to take

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Speaker 1: those little steps. But I think another thing that feels

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Speaker 1: scary about connecting right now is that the world socially

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Speaker 1: feels like kind of a fraud place. We all have

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Speaker 1: these really distinct identities that feel very salient, that feel

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Speaker 1: different than a lot of other people's identities. You know, politically,

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Speaker 1: we're super polarized, and that on top of everybody who's

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Speaker 1: kind of out of practice with social stuff, and so

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Speaker 1: I think it can feel especially scary when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to connect in ways that might involve contacting somebody who

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Speaker 1: has really a different perspective than you. And that was

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Speaker 1: another set of questions that we got a lot about.

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Speaker 1: I'll just read them. Another from a listener on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: Nomfundo Nomfundo says, Hey, Laurie, First, thank you for an

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Speaker 1: amazing podcast. Thank you, Nomfundo. I'm super keen to hear

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Speaker 1: how to build healthy relationships with friends and colleagues and

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Speaker 1: even in the romantic context, especially across social, economic and

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Speaker 1: political differences. Jimmie, I know this is a spot where

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Speaker 1: you've done a lot of work in terms of what

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Speaker 1: we can do to build up empathy, and so how

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Speaker 1: can we build these healthy relationships across what feels like

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Speaker 1: a scary divide. Well, first of all, I totally resonate

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Speaker 1: with what no Fundo is saying here. If it's hard

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Speaker 1: to connect in general, it's especially hard to connect when

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Speaker 1: we feel like we're different from someone else. I think

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Speaker 1: one issue here and again, another social trick our minds

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Speaker 1: play on us is that we focus on other people's

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Speaker 1: statistics instead of their stories. It's almost like, instead of

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Speaker 1: seeing someone as a person, you see them as a

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Speaker 1: baseball card. I don't know, Laurie, if you ever collected

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Speaker 1: baseball cards. I did, and you see every season a

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Speaker 1: player had played, and what their batting average was, how

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Speaker 1: many runs they batted, and all that stuff. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like these days we look at each other as

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Speaker 1: though we're reading statistics off of a baseball card, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes those statistics can be super misleading, especially when they

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Speaker 1: make someone seem different from ourselves. I'll give you one

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Speaker 1: example from the political domain. So it's true that people

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Speaker 1: see folks on the other side of the political divide

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Speaker 1: as extreme and evil and all that stuff. They also

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Speaker 1: just don't know who they are as people. So there

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Speaker 1: was one statistic that was incredible where Democrats believed that

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Speaker 1: thirty eight percent of Republicans earn more than a quarter

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Speaker 1: million dollars a year. The actual percentages too and likewise,

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Speaker 1: Republicans believed that thirty two percent of Democrats identified as

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ plot and the actual percentage is six. So right,

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Speaker 1: it's not just that we think the other side is bad.

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Speaker 1: We literally don't know who they are because we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about what they're doing. We're over relying on statistics and

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Speaker 1: their associated stereotypes to figure out who's there. At quick

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Speaker 1: salve for this is to try, at least temporarily, to

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Speaker 1: forget about statistics. Now they do matter. It matters that

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Speaker 1: we're different from each other. I'm not saying that we

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Speaker 1: should be blind to those differences or act like we're

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Speaker 1: all the same. In fact, I think we should understand

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Speaker 1: that we're all different, not just from people on the

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Speaker 1: other side of a divide or difference, but from people

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Speaker 1: on our own side. Right when we ask people about

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Speaker 1: their individual stories, we don't pretend that they're similar to us.

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Speaker 1: We realize that they're different from every other person on

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Speaker 1: the planet. And it turns out that when people can

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Speaker 1: access each other's biographies, when they can understand and also

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Speaker 1: feel heard telling their own stories, it's not that differences

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Speaker 1: melt away, but we find points of commonality that would

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Speaker 1: shock us or surprise us if we were to keep

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Speaker 1: in this baseball card model of social interaction. One of

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Speaker 1: the ways I know you've talked about doing that is

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Speaker 1: to really make sure you're getting access to the stories, right,

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Speaker 1: because that can be a little bit hard if you're

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Speaker 1: not really trying to connect with people and hear their

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Speaker 1: side of some perspective. Right, Absolutely, it feels hard to

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Speaker 1: get other people's stories, but in fact it's extremely easy. People,

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Speaker 1: including people who are different from ourselves, often will open

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Speaker 1: up very quickly if you show any genuine curiosity in them. Now,

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Speaker 1: if that curiosity feels like it's going to be weaponized

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Speaker 1: in like five seconds, then maybe people will clam up,

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Speaker 1: and maybe they have a right to. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I think this is one lesson from work that we've

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Speaker 1: talked about before on deep canvassing. This is work by

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Speaker 1: Josh Kella and David Brookman where they show that when

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Speaker 1: people go door to door talking about political issues, but

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Speaker 1: start out asking people what's your story, Like, what's the

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Speaker 1: time that you felt like people were rejecting you or

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Speaker 1: like you felt judged for who you were, people are

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Speaker 1: more than willing to share those stories. And then after

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Speaker 1: sharing those stories, they're more than willing to hear other

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Speaker 1: people's stories. It turns out, if you want someone to

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Speaker 1: listen to you, one of the best things you can

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Speaker 1: do is listen to them first. Because we are a

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Speaker 1: highly reciprocal species, right, we tend to pay back what

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Speaker 1: other people give us. So if we judge people guess what,

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Speaker 1: they're probably gonna do the same to us. And if

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Speaker 1: we listen to people and invite their stories, they'll probably

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Speaker 1: want to hear ours too. So far, we've talked about

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Speaker 1: lots of wonderful ways that we can connect with people

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Speaker 1: and maybe even find new friends across the political divide.

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Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we'll take all

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Speaker 1: of these challenges one step further to figure out how

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Speaker 1: we can deal with people who really disagree with us.

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Speaker 1: We'll tackle that big challenge when the Happiness Lab returns

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Speaker 1: in a moment. So far, we've been talking about what

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Speaker 1: we can do to make new friends in this strange

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Speaker 1: post pandemic era where we're all feeling a little bit

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Speaker 1: socially out of practice. Now I want to turn to

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Speaker 1: the question of how we can navigate some of the

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Speaker 1: challenges that have come up in the friendships that we've

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Speaker 1: had for a long time. A lot of our listeners

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Speaker 1: had a question about how they can support people who

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Speaker 1: are going through some tough times during the pandemic, because again,

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Speaker 1: this has not been a cake walk for most of us.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people are really struggling right now. And

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Speaker 1: we had one question from a listener that I want

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Speaker 1: to get the producers to play now because I thought

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Speaker 1: it was really powerful. So, producers, can you play at

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Speaker 1: Megan's clip for us? Hi, Laurie, my name's Megan Kan.

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Speaker 1: I live in Omaha, Nebraska. I've been listening to the

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Speaker 1: show for a long time and I love it. And

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Speaker 1: my question is how can we contribute to the happiness

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Speaker 1: of our friends when they're suffering without acting like their

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Speaker 1: happiness is our responsibility. I have a lot of friends

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Speaker 1: who have mental illness or come from a trauma background,

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Speaker 1: and it's really hard to see their suffering. You can

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Speaker 1: watch that mental illness eroding their happiness, and especially when

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Speaker 1: those friends don't seek therapy, it starts to feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm their therapist and I'm not trained to be a therapist.

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Speaker 1: I can start feeling like this friendship has been com

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Speaker 1: toxic for me. It's really draining a lot of my

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Speaker 1: energy and a lot of my happiness, and so I

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Speaker 1: want to be able to support those friends, to be

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Speaker 1: there for them, to be mindful of their happiness without

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Speaker 1: compromising my own. So, Jamille, this feels like a really

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Speaker 1: tricky one. Any thoughts on how we can navigate this? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: lots of thoughts. I mean, first of all, I think

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Speaker 1: many of us have been through what Megan is describing here,

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Speaker 1: feeling as though we care for someone and can't do anything,

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Speaker 1: and that helplessness can be a real killer. It can

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Speaker 1: be so difficult and painful. Unit study empathy a whole bunch,

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Speaker 1: and one of the pieces of empathy that we talk

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Speaker 1: about in this world is empathic concern, the desire to

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Speaker 1: improve somebody else's well being. Empathic concern is a desire,

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Speaker 1: and like any other desire, it produces a goal in

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Speaker 1: our mind, an assignment to fix this other person. And

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Speaker 1: it's very easy to feel as though empathy has failed

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Speaker 1: if you're not able to change somebody else. Now, that

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Speaker 1: can be dreadful for everyone involved, right, It can be

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Speaker 1: really difficult for the person experiencing empathy. And in the

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Speaker 1: worst of cases, and I see this a lot in

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Speaker 1: healthcare workers people can start to decide, well, if I

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Speaker 1: can't change other people, if I can't fix them, if

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Speaker 1: I can't make them happier, then I've failed at empathizing.

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Speaker 1: So I'm a bad empathizer, I'm a bad caregiver, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to stop. I've literally seen people pull back

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Speaker 1: from their entire profession, like social workers, because they don't

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Speaker 1: feel like they're able to fix other people. But guess what,

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Speaker 1: the job of empathy is not actually to fix other people,

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Speaker 1: because other people are not in our control. Megan said

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Speaker 1: that she's not trained as a therapist. Neither am I,

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Speaker 1: but my wife is, and I asked her about this

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Speaker 1: very issue, and she says, you know that one of

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Speaker 1: the most important things is to realize that when we

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Speaker 1: try to show up for other people, all we have

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Speaker 1: control over is what we bring to the situation. Can

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Speaker 1: we be as attentive, as supportive, as non judgmental as possible.

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Speaker 1: If we do that, then I would say that our

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Speaker 1: empathy has succeeded, irrespective of how it lands with the

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Speaker 1: other person, because we've done what we can. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of talk about this in the world of self compassion,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I have to shout out Kristin Neff

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Speaker 1: and Christopher Germer, who have excellent resources online that you

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Speaker 1: can look for here. One of their practices is known

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Speaker 1: as equanimity, and it's this practice of understanding that we

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Speaker 1: want the best for other people. We want to express

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Speaker 1: our good will for them and to be there for them,

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Speaker 1: but that we cannot control whether our help actually makes

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Speaker 1: a difference for them. We can't even control whether they

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Speaker 1: accept our goodwill. All we can do is provide to

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Speaker 1: them what we can. Now. The other side of this,

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Speaker 1: and some good news here for Megan and the rest

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Speaker 1: of us, is that oftentimes that's all people really want

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Speaker 1: from us. I think oftentimes we overestimate how much people

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Speaker 1: want us to solve their problems. In fact, when people

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Speaker 1: think about giving support to others, another trick that their

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Speaker 1: mind plays on them is that they think that they'll

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Speaker 1: be bad support providers if they don't know the exact

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Speaker 1: right thing to say. In fact, if you ask support

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Speaker 1: receivers what they want, oftentimes it's not for someone to

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Speaker 1: fix their problems. It's just for someone to be there. So, Megan,

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Speaker 1: even without fixing your friend's problem, you might be doing

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Speaker 1: a lot more than you realize. You are just by

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Speaker 1: being a friend to that individual, And I think that's

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Speaker 1: so important, especially when you're in that position, you know,

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Speaker 1: because of course we've all been there. I've been there too,

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Speaker 1: of feeling like, oh, I'm not making the difference that

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping to make. Just remembering that the listening is

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Speaker 1: the difference and that matters more than we can often realize.

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Speaker 1: I think that was super helpful advice. Is there any

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Speaker 1: point at which you think you might need to step back?

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes we can feel and pathetically beholden to people,

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Speaker 1: but then there's sometimes when we're struggling ourselves where we

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Speaker 1: might need to take a break and really focus on

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Speaker 1: our own health. Is that the kind of thing that

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Speaker 1: we need to consider when we're thinking about empathy one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent? I think equanimity allows us to realize that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I can bring the best version of myself to this

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Speaker 1: situation to this other person that I can, but it's

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Speaker 1: not my responsibility to fix them. Along with that, it's

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Speaker 1: also important to practice self compassion. Being around somebody that

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Speaker 1: we care about who is really struggling is its own

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Speaker 1: type of suffering for us as well, and so I

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Speaker 1: think it's important to also turn that compassionate lens that

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Speaker 1: we have for a Megan's case for her close friend

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Speaker 1: and point it back at ourselves and realize that we

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Speaker 1: too suffer when we're around people who suffer, and that

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Speaker 1: we need to care for ourselves during those times too.

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Speaker 1: Megan's case is kind of particularly extreme, right. It's a

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Speaker 1: case where you have a close friend that's really going

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Speaker 1: through a tough time that you're trying to help. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us also have peripheral people in

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Speaker 1: our lives that are either going to a tough time

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Speaker 1: or just have the kind of personality where they're not,

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Speaker 1: let's say, as consistent with our happiness goals as we

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Speaker 1: might let right, yes, our next listener's question is really

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Speaker 1: asking a question about this, How can we navigate people

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Speaker 1: whose moods and whose goals for happiness might not be

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Speaker 1: as consistent with ours. This question comes from mass com

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Speaker 1: eighty four on Twitter. Mass com asks, good afternoon, Laurie.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any advice on how to stay happy

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Speaker 1: or focused even though sometimes you're in an environment where

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Speaker 1: the individuals around you don't share the same mood or

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Speaker 1: the same goals, especially in a work environment. So I

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Speaker 1: think this is something that Jimmy Lee, you're a uniquely

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Speaker 1: qualified to answer, and part because you're just like a

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Speaker 1: super happy person. I feel like your mean happiness is

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Speaker 1: much higher than everyone else, so you're constantly in a

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Speaker 1: position where people's mood is worse than yours. But also,

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Speaker 1: since I know you've been thinking a lot about how

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Speaker 1: we can navigate the moods of other people and stay

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Speaker 1: empathic and try to help folks even when their moods

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Speaker 1: and their goals might differ from ours. Yeah. Well, you know, Laurie,

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Speaker 1: if you don't mind, let me first say that I

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Speaker 1: appreciate that positive sentiment, but I think it's way off base,

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Speaker 1: which is not your fault. But I don't consider myself

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Speaker 1: someone who's happy all the time by any stretch of

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Speaker 1: the imagination, including over the last two years. I think

430
00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:47,476
Speaker 1: it's been a really hard time, And you know, I

431
00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:51,276
Speaker 1: try to emphasize the positive when I'm out in public,

432
00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:53,996
Speaker 1: especially when I'm thinking about the science, because I think

433
00:20:54,036 --> 00:20:56,516
Speaker 1: that the science, especially the science that I study, the

434
00:20:56,716 --> 00:20:59,356
Speaker 1: sunny side of human nature, gives us all this information

435
00:20:59,476 --> 00:21:01,556
Speaker 1: that people are really wonderful in all these ways, and

436
00:21:01,596 --> 00:21:05,076
Speaker 1: I do believe those data in my mind, that doesn't

437
00:21:05,116 --> 00:21:08,796
Speaker 1: mean that that doesn't mean that I believe those data

438
00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:10,596
Speaker 1: in my heart all the time. You know, Yeah, like

439
00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:12,716
Speaker 1: when you're stuck in traffic and like looking at the

440
00:21:12,756 --> 00:21:15,116
Speaker 1: person next to you or any people in San Francisco

441
00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:18,916
Speaker 1: just not use turn signals that never knows. There are

442
00:21:18,996 --> 00:21:22,156
Speaker 1: so many there's so many times that I've struggled in

443
00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:24,636
Speaker 1: so many different ways, And so I don't want anyone

444
00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:26,956
Speaker 1: out there to think that just because we study this

445
00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:30,196
Speaker 1: stuff that makes us natural experts at being awesome at

446
00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:32,636
Speaker 1: I don't all the time and just feeling terrific. But

447
00:21:32,796 --> 00:21:36,236
Speaker 1: I think that we, like everybody else, hope that tools

448
00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:39,676
Speaker 1: from psychology can help all of us access happiness just

449
00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:41,876
Speaker 1: a little bit more than we would have otherwise. So

450
00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:44,956
Speaker 1: to get back to Mascom's question, which I think is

451
00:21:44,996 --> 00:21:47,956
Speaker 1: a really good one, we all have that person in

452
00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:51,036
Speaker 1: the office or you know, our apartment building or whatever

453
00:21:51,316 --> 00:21:53,956
Speaker 1: who maybe is a little bit gloomier or maybe has

454
00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:56,476
Speaker 1: a bad attitude. Pro tip if you don't have that

455
00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:59,276
Speaker 1: person around you, you might be that person for other

456
00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:04,636
Speaker 1: You got to listen to extra episode. So yeah, stay

457
00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:08,716
Speaker 1: tuned for more of the Happiness Lab. But I think

458
00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:12,316
Speaker 1: one to remember is that oftentimes, just because someone comes

459
00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:15,196
Speaker 1: off as unhappy doesn't mean that they don't want to

460
00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:17,676
Speaker 1: be happy. Just because someone comes off as a little

461
00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:19,956
Speaker 1: bit mean doesn't mean that they don't want to be

462
00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:22,756
Speaker 1: friendly or kind. I think that people buy and large

463
00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:25,756
Speaker 1: share our goals and values. The issue is that a

464
00:22:25,796 --> 00:22:28,116
Speaker 1: lot of the times they feel disconnected from them. So

465
00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:31,076
Speaker 1: I often try to get past the way that people

466
00:22:31,196 --> 00:22:33,676
Speaker 1: present and try to be curious about what's underneath that.

467
00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:38,196
Speaker 1: You know, so often anxiety shows up as anger or boredom,

468
00:22:38,716 --> 00:22:43,036
Speaker 1: sadness might show up as frustration. People don't always perform

469
00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,756
Speaker 1: outwardly what they're feeling inside. So the first thing that

470
00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:49,436
Speaker 1: I would encourage someone to do if they have someone

471
00:22:49,516 --> 00:22:52,396
Speaker 1: around them who seems to not share their happiness goals

472
00:22:52,516 --> 00:22:54,956
Speaker 1: is to really ask yourself, are you sure? Because maybe

473
00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:57,036
Speaker 1: they do share your goals, but there's something getting in

474
00:22:57,076 --> 00:22:59,436
Speaker 1: their way. Yeah. I think that there's also a couple

475
00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:02,276
Speaker 1: of techniques that we can all use, but also encourage

476
00:23:02,316 --> 00:23:05,116
Speaker 1: others to use to get a little bit more happiness

477
00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:07,716
Speaker 1: and meaning. For instance, in the workplace, there's a great

478
00:23:07,796 --> 00:23:10,276
Speaker 1: study that came out just a couple months ago on

479
00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:13,076
Speaker 1: burnout in the workplace, which I mean goodness, what is

480
00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:15,556
Speaker 1: more common these days? I feel like burnout is just

481
00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:18,676
Speaker 1: like the vibe of the twenty twenties. So far, it's

482
00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:22,556
Speaker 1: like vibe of the decade burnout, but you know the

483
00:23:22,636 --> 00:23:24,916
Speaker 1: decade is not over yet by a long shot, but

484
00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:28,716
Speaker 1: nonetheless super common experience. And it turns out that there

485
00:23:28,756 --> 00:23:32,876
Speaker 1: are different ways that compassion can help us overcome burnout.

486
00:23:33,356 --> 00:23:35,396
Speaker 1: The first is in order to know how, we need

487
00:23:35,436 --> 00:23:37,436
Speaker 1: to know that burnout actually is more than one piece.

488
00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:41,036
Speaker 1: There is exhaustion, just a sense of being totally overwhelmed

489
00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:43,356
Speaker 1: by what we have to do. And there's also cynicism,

490
00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:47,476
Speaker 1: a sense of depersonalization and disconnection from the people around us.

491
00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:50,316
Speaker 1: So if you have someone around you who seems really unhappy,

492
00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:52,236
Speaker 1: I might start by saying, well, in what way are

493
00:23:52,276 --> 00:23:55,116
Speaker 1: they unhappy? And might I make a difference in helping

494
00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,636
Speaker 1: them get on board with those goals or even become

495
00:23:58,716 --> 00:24:01,156
Speaker 1: happier If people are really exhausted, it turns out that

496
00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:03,876
Speaker 1: self compassion and self care matter a lot, right just

497
00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:07,556
Speaker 1: giving yourself that time to recharge. But interestingly, if people

498
00:24:07,796 --> 00:24:10,956
Speaker 1: feel cynical and connected, sometimes what they need is not

499
00:24:11,156 --> 00:24:13,596
Speaker 1: to binge. Watch ted Lasso and eat a box of

500
00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:16,916
Speaker 1: bond bonds, which I mean are two excellent activities, especially

501
00:24:16,956 --> 00:24:21,796
Speaker 1: it's fair to be fair, you know, especially when performed together.

502
00:24:21,956 --> 00:24:24,476
Speaker 1: But it turns out that one of the best salves

503
00:24:24,716 --> 00:24:29,676
Speaker 1: or treatments for depersonalization, for cynicism, for that sense of disconnection,

504
00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:32,996
Speaker 1: is not to retreat into ourselves, but rather to help

505
00:24:33,036 --> 00:24:35,876
Speaker 1: other people. When we express compassion for others, we often

506
00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:38,756
Speaker 1: end up feeling well, like there's more meaning to our

507
00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:41,756
Speaker 1: connections with them. So I guess for mass com I

508
00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:44,476
Speaker 1: would say, think about what your co worker is going

509
00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:46,916
Speaker 1: through and maybe ask yourself what could they do to

510
00:24:47,036 --> 00:24:50,156
Speaker 1: feel better? And you know, if you express compassion to them,

511
00:24:50,436 --> 00:24:52,996
Speaker 1: you might feel better too. That's the beauty of so

512
00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,676
Speaker 1: many of these social strategies, as are like this wonderful

513
00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:57,916
Speaker 1: win win. You do this nice thing for somebody else,

514
00:24:57,956 --> 00:24:59,716
Speaker 1: You extend them compassion, you try to help with them

515
00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:02,236
Speaker 1: in the workplace, and then you feel better too. It's like,

516
00:25:02,356 --> 00:25:04,356
Speaker 1: it's such a wonderful thing. I think we're so many

517
00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:06,476
Speaker 1: of us are locked in this vicious cycle where we

518
00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:09,036
Speaker 1: imagine people are worse than they are, so we interact

519
00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:11,196
Speaker 1: with them as we imagine them to be, and we

520
00:25:11,316 --> 00:25:14,716
Speaker 1: miss out on connections, but just flipping the switch on

521
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:18,036
Speaker 1: our behavior can change that vicious cycle into a virtuous

522
00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:21,636
Speaker 1: one where beliefs turn into positive actions and positive outcomes.

523
00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:23,876
Speaker 1: So far, we've been talking about ways that we can

524
00:25:24,316 --> 00:25:26,516
Speaker 1: re envision humanity is, you know, the kind of thing

525
00:25:26,556 --> 00:25:28,276
Speaker 1: where a lot of people are fighting with us rather

526
00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:30,596
Speaker 1: than against us, and ways that we can hear people's stories.

527
00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:32,676
Speaker 1: We get back from the break, we'll take this one

528
00:25:32,716 --> 00:25:34,876
Speaker 1: step further to how we can do that with people

529
00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:37,676
Speaker 1: who are really in a spot where they're disagreeing with us.

530
00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:40,156
Speaker 1: We'll tackle the challenges of that kind of social connection.

531
00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:42,756
Speaker 1: When the Happiest Lab returns in a moment, the Happiness

532
00:25:42,796 --> 00:25:54,716
Speaker 1: Lab will be right back. We were chatting before the break,

533
00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:56,796
Speaker 1: we were talking about how to manage people who weren't

534
00:25:56,796 --> 00:25:59,276
Speaker 1: feeling so happy. I think our next two questions really

535
00:25:59,356 --> 00:26:01,716
Speaker 1: fit nicely with that there again kind of how can

536
00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:03,996
Speaker 1: you navigate people who seem to think and have a

537
00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:06,276
Speaker 1: mindset that's different than yours. But a lot of our

538
00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:08,556
Speaker 1: listeners wrote in about a mindset of what you might

539
00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:11,076
Speaker 1: call past simism, or this idea of feeling cynical like

540
00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:12,836
Speaker 1: you were talking about. So one of the questions we

541
00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,596
Speaker 1: got comes from Brandon Harris. Brandon writes, I'd love more

542
00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:17,436
Speaker 1: insights on how to help people that are prone to

543
00:26:17,516 --> 00:26:21,116
Speaker 1: focusing on what's wrong or thinking too critically or negatively, basically,

544
00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:23,636
Speaker 1: how we can turn an extreme pessimist into an optimist.

545
00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:25,596
Speaker 1: Brandon goes on to say that his wife tends to

546
00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:27,476
Speaker 1: focus on what isn't right, or what hasn't been done,

547
00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:29,556
Speaker 1: or all the negatives. He says that she's aware and

548
00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:31,876
Speaker 1: wants to be better about focusing on the positives, but

549
00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:34,516
Speaker 1: it's just hard to be thankful because it's kind of ingrained.

550
00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:37,196
Speaker 1: And we got a similar question from another person who

551
00:26:37,436 --> 00:26:39,756
Speaker 1: jowned in from the Happiness Lab classroom on Facebook. This

552
00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:42,556
Speaker 1: is from Katie Canning, who writes specifically about how to

553
00:26:42,636 --> 00:26:44,436
Speaker 1: do with the same kind of thing, but with kids.

554
00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:47,236
Speaker 1: So Katie asks how to help children work towards happiness

555
00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:49,796
Speaker 1: when they feel utterly despondent due to life events and

556
00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:52,196
Speaker 1: can't see anything to be grateful for. I think this

557
00:26:52,356 --> 00:26:54,756
Speaker 1: comes up a lot right where it's easy, when times

558
00:26:54,796 --> 00:26:57,196
Speaker 1: feel tough, to focus on all the negatives to just

559
00:26:57,716 --> 00:27:00,036
Speaker 1: be into the gripe thing rather than the focusing on

560
00:27:00,116 --> 00:27:01,996
Speaker 1: the blessings and I know this is something that you've

561
00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:03,716
Speaker 1: been thinking about more and more because I know you

562
00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:06,796
Speaker 1: have this cool ted talk about cynicism, which everyone should

563
00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:08,996
Speaker 1: check out. But yeah, any advice for how to get

564
00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:12,636
Speaker 1: people out of this pessimism trap, this kind of griping trap. Yeah,

565
00:27:12,716 --> 00:27:15,236
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a great set of questions. And

566
00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:17,236
Speaker 1: the first thing I would say is that things are

567
00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:19,396
Speaker 1: really screwed up in a lot of ways. So it's

568
00:27:19,396 --> 00:27:21,556
Speaker 1: not all in our heads, you know, Laurie, both you

569
00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:24,236
Speaker 1: and I are a psychologists, so we love thinking about

570
00:27:24,276 --> 00:27:26,756
Speaker 1: people's minds and in particular, you know some of the

571
00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:28,596
Speaker 1: tricks that our minds play on us. But if you

572
00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:31,756
Speaker 1: think things are bad, it might not be your mind playing.

573
00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:37,476
Speaker 1: That's things really, you know, along a bunch of dimensions

574
00:27:37,556 --> 00:27:39,556
Speaker 1: are really tough right now. So the first thing I

575
00:27:39,636 --> 00:27:41,636
Speaker 1: want to say is just to validate people who are

576
00:27:41,716 --> 00:27:43,756
Speaker 1: having a hard time seeing the bright side. You know,

577
00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:46,316
Speaker 1: I don't think that right now what we have is

578
00:27:46,436 --> 00:27:49,396
Speaker 1: only an optimism deficit. I think that we have a

579
00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:52,596
Speaker 1: world in which pessimism, it can be a really natural

580
00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:55,476
Speaker 1: reaction to what's out there, and especially what's out there

581
00:27:55,556 --> 00:27:57,916
Speaker 1: that we hear about in the news. Right because there's

582
00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:01,956
Speaker 1: this disproportionate focus on negative information that we receive when

583
00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:04,356
Speaker 1: we're doom scrolling, you know, at least for me at

584
00:28:04,396 --> 00:28:06,596
Speaker 1: like eleven thirty PM, when I need to wake up

585
00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:10,636
Speaker 1: at six am, right, So it's it's totally natural response

586
00:28:10,716 --> 00:28:13,756
Speaker 1: to a topsy turvy world. That said, you know, one

587
00:28:13,796 --> 00:28:15,996
Speaker 1: of the things that I come back to over and

588
00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:19,076
Speaker 1: over again is this idea that people are better than

589
00:28:19,116 --> 00:28:22,436
Speaker 1: we realize they are. Right. So, yes, horrible things happen

590
00:28:22,596 --> 00:28:26,276
Speaker 1: and people do awful, awful things, and it's easy, very

591
00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:28,836
Speaker 1: easy to focus on those. I mean, those are the

592
00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:31,476
Speaker 1: shark attacks of the social world that are actually worse

593
00:28:31,596 --> 00:28:34,356
Speaker 1: than real shark attacks. Oftentimes, what we see people doing

594
00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:36,156
Speaker 1: the horrible things that we hear about in the news,

595
00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:40,676
Speaker 1: but that's not representative of most people. In fact, one

596
00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:42,716
Speaker 1: of the books that I've been reading to my own kids,

597
00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:45,596
Speaker 1: who are six and five, is this book called Most People,

598
00:28:45,836 --> 00:28:48,476
Speaker 1: and it's really beautiful. It's about the idea that the

599
00:28:48,636 --> 00:28:51,676
Speaker 1: vast majority of people want to help one another, want

600
00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:55,156
Speaker 1: to connect with others, want to have a positive impact

601
00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:57,196
Speaker 1: on the world. And I know that's a book for

602
00:28:57,316 --> 00:28:59,556
Speaker 1: six year olds, but honestly, the last time I read it,

603
00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:02,516
Speaker 1: I've started crying because I think it's so easy to

604
00:29:02,636 --> 00:29:05,796
Speaker 1: forget that. But really it's true when you look at

605
00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:09,516
Speaker 1: opinions around what people want from the world, whether they

606
00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:11,796
Speaker 1: want to be rich and famous or whether they want

607
00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:14,276
Speaker 1: to be part of community. People think that others around

608
00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:15,996
Speaker 1: them want to be rich and famous, but in fact,

609
00:29:16,036 --> 00:29:18,436
Speaker 1: the vast majority of people are much more interested in

610
00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:22,236
Speaker 1: connection and community. So again, we've got it backwards, and

611
00:29:22,636 --> 00:29:25,556
Speaker 1: I think that turning that upside down perception right side

612
00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:28,156
Speaker 1: up can be really empowering. I mean that not just

613
00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,796
Speaker 1: in terms of optimism, like a complacent view that everything

614
00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:34,436
Speaker 1: is actually great when things are really messed up. I

615
00:29:34,596 --> 00:29:37,596
Speaker 1: mean that when we realize that most people around us

616
00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:40,836
Speaker 1: want what we want, a peaceful and connected world, that

617
00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:43,676
Speaker 1: actually can make us the opposite of complacent. It can

618
00:29:43,756 --> 00:29:46,876
Speaker 1: help us agitate for change because it can be really

619
00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:49,556
Speaker 1: paralyzing to think I'm the only one who wants things

620
00:29:49,676 --> 00:29:52,356
Speaker 1: to change for the better. That can make us pessimistic

621
00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:54,876
Speaker 1: if we feel alone. Optimism doesn't have to be the

622
00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:58,236
Speaker 1: same as thinking everything is great. Optimism can mean wanting

623
00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:01,236
Speaker 1: a better future and understanding that most people want it

624
00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:03,956
Speaker 1: with us, and so fighting for that even more fiercely.

625
00:30:04,516 --> 00:30:06,356
Speaker 1: Now I want to tackle a different challenge that a

626
00:30:06,436 --> 00:30:08,796
Speaker 1: lot of listeners asked about how we can manage not

627
00:30:08,876 --> 00:30:10,796
Speaker 1: se eye to eye with the people in our lives,

628
00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:13,356
Speaker 1: particularly where there might be disagreements. So we had a

629
00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:16,236
Speaker 1: couple questions that came up about this. One that comes

630
00:30:16,396 --> 00:30:19,476
Speaker 1: from Suva I Am on Twitter, asks how can we

631
00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:22,636
Speaker 1: better create happy teams at work? Specifically, how can we

632
00:30:22,796 --> 00:30:26,036
Speaker 1: disagree and still work happily together. Similarly, we get a

633
00:30:26,116 --> 00:30:29,356
Speaker 1: question from Samir that asks can we talk about disagreements

634
00:30:29,356 --> 00:30:32,276
Speaker 1: and reasoning with others because naturally I'm right one hundred

635
00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:33,916
Speaker 1: percent of the time. I think Samir is being a

636
00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:35,956
Speaker 1: little facetious. War maybe, but he says, I find it

637
00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:38,156
Speaker 1: demoralizing when the people I talk to do not see

638
00:30:38,196 --> 00:30:40,036
Speaker 1: things the way I do. And then Samir goes on

639
00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:41,876
Speaker 1: to explain that he grew up in Pakistan but has

640
00:30:41,916 --> 00:30:44,716
Speaker 1: since traveled the world and he finds himself constantly struggling

641
00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:47,756
Speaker 1: to explain where he learned about these new experiences. He

642
00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:49,716
Speaker 1: finds it hard to kind of connect with people because

643
00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,396
Speaker 1: he's had these new experiences, and his experiences make it

644
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:54,476
Speaker 1: really hard to see eye to eye. And one of

645
00:30:54,516 --> 00:30:56,276
Speaker 1: the reasons I'm so happy we have you here in

646
00:30:56,356 --> 00:30:58,396
Speaker 1: particular to answer this question is that you've written an

647
00:30:58,516 --> 00:31:01,076
Speaker 1: entire book about strategies we can use to increase our empathy.

648
00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:03,156
Speaker 1: For listeners who haven't checked out, they should definitely check

649
00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:05,716
Speaker 1: out The War for Kindness because it's amazing. But any

650
00:31:05,796 --> 00:31:08,436
Speaker 1: tips for Suva, Samir and all the others who might

651
00:31:08,476 --> 00:31:10,876
Speaker 1: be NAVI getting this challenge of dealing with people they

652
00:31:10,916 --> 00:31:13,316
Speaker 1: disagree with. I mean, it's the challenge of our age,

653
00:31:13,436 --> 00:31:15,516
Speaker 1: or at least one. I put it in the top five.

654
00:31:15,836 --> 00:31:18,156
Speaker 1: It's in the conversation for a challenge of our age.

655
00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:21,236
Speaker 1: It's so common and so difficult at a number of levels.

656
00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:22,756
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that it sounds like these folks

657
00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:26,396
Speaker 1: are talking about two different types of challenge and disagreement.

658
00:31:26,476 --> 00:31:28,956
Speaker 1: So let me take those one at a time. Forsuva's

659
00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:31,636
Speaker 1: great question around conflict at work, but I think this

660
00:31:31,796 --> 00:31:34,476
Speaker 1: also pertains to conflict outside of work. I think that

661
00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:37,036
Speaker 1: one of the most productive things we can do when

662
00:31:37,076 --> 00:31:40,316
Speaker 1: we disagree with someone is be really clear right off

663
00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,876
Speaker 1: the bat about what we disagree on and what we

664
00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:48,316
Speaker 1: agree on, because oftentimes I think that disagreement raises people's walls, right,

665
00:31:48,396 --> 00:31:51,196
Speaker 1: It sort of raises their defenses to such a degree

666
00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:54,036
Speaker 1: that they start to think in zero sum terms about

667
00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:56,676
Speaker 1: the other person full stop, right Like, if you disagree

668
00:31:56,716 --> 00:31:58,756
Speaker 1: with me about this thing at work, then I must

669
00:31:58,796 --> 00:32:01,316
Speaker 1: just like not like you and we must disagree on

670
00:32:01,436 --> 00:32:04,156
Speaker 1: everything else, And that's probably not true. In fact, usually

671
00:32:04,476 --> 00:32:07,796
Speaker 1: conflicts at work are very local about how a particular

672
00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:11,316
Speaker 1: project should get done, and oftentimes people share if you

673
00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:13,916
Speaker 1: just zoom out a little bit, they're big picture goals.

674
00:32:14,036 --> 00:32:16,476
Speaker 1: They are working together on a team. So one of

675
00:32:16,556 --> 00:32:20,596
Speaker 1: the big differentiators here in the sort of organizational psychology

676
00:32:20,676 --> 00:32:24,756
Speaker 1: world is between task conflict and relational conflict. So task

677
00:32:24,836 --> 00:32:26,996
Speaker 1: conflict is where you just have a different opinion about

678
00:32:27,036 --> 00:32:30,356
Speaker 1: how something should get done. Relational conflict is where, well,

679
00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:32,716
Speaker 1: you kind of don't like each other, for lack of

680
00:32:32,796 --> 00:32:35,316
Speaker 1: a better term. I think we often confuse the first

681
00:32:35,356 --> 00:32:38,076
Speaker 1: of those for the second, because when we are threatened

682
00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:40,756
Speaker 1: by task conflict, we start to think this is scary.

683
00:32:40,996 --> 00:32:42,836
Speaker 1: I don't like it, and so I don't like the

684
00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:46,196
Speaker 1: person who's here with me right now. It's critical when

685
00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:50,436
Speaker 1: we can to not extrapolate or overgeneralize in that way,

686
00:32:50,516 --> 00:32:53,476
Speaker 1: but instead to have open conversations about, well, we disagree

687
00:32:53,516 --> 00:32:56,916
Speaker 1: about this, but let's refocus. Let's just back up a

688
00:32:56,956 --> 00:32:58,916
Speaker 1: little bit and zoom out what do we agree on?

689
00:32:59,196 --> 00:33:02,596
Speaker 1: And oftentimes starting with that common ground makes discussion of

690
00:33:02,836 --> 00:33:05,636
Speaker 1: task conflict of what you disagree about feel much less

691
00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:09,796
Speaker 1: dangerous and therefore go much more productively. I've even heard

692
00:33:09,836 --> 00:33:11,876
Speaker 1: this as a strategy in work meetings, right where you

693
00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:14,036
Speaker 1: start with okay, let's start with where we're all on

694
00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:15,756
Speaker 1: the same page, we all agree on this, we all

695
00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:17,356
Speaker 1: agree on this, I'll be all be honest. And sometimes

696
00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:18,916
Speaker 1: if you zoom out, that could that could be a

697
00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:20,996
Speaker 1: long part of the meeting where you're listings like if

698
00:33:21,036 --> 00:33:23,556
Speaker 1: there's this one tiny spot where we don't agree, and

699
00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:25,876
Speaker 1: that can make like, oh, we're all on the same page.

700
00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:28,596
Speaker 1: We just have to deal with this one tiny task conflict,

701
00:33:28,636 --> 00:33:30,676
Speaker 1: and it can feel completely different than we are at

702
00:33:30,716 --> 00:33:32,836
Speaker 1: odd completely I mean, I think that it's sort of

703
00:33:32,916 --> 00:33:36,076
Speaker 1: a group meeting version of the compliment sandwich, you know,

704
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:39,796
Speaker 1: but much more authentic though, right, because oftentimes people really

705
00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:42,436
Speaker 1: do agree on I don't know, eighty ninety percent of

706
00:33:42,516 --> 00:33:45,796
Speaker 1: things in a workplace context, and yet it's so easy

707
00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:49,116
Speaker 1: to focus on the ten percent until it becomes a

708
00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:52,436
Speaker 1: hundred right, So just interrupting that process is critical. And

709
00:33:52,516 --> 00:33:55,836
Speaker 1: then to Samir's question, I think that I mean, which

710
00:33:55,996 --> 00:33:58,756
Speaker 1: was hilarious by the way, Samir, Yes, I too, am

711
00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:00,956
Speaker 1: right one hundred percent of the time, which I imagine

712
00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:03,316
Speaker 1: means Sameir that you and I would agree one hundred

713
00:34:03,356 --> 00:34:06,156
Speaker 1: percent of the time as well. So what happens if

714
00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:08,236
Speaker 1: we disagree? My goodness, one of us is in an

715
00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:11,876
Speaker 1: existential pickle, aren't there? Or maybe both of us? You know?

716
00:34:11,956 --> 00:34:14,236
Speaker 1: This is something that Adam Grant writes beautifully about and

717
00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:17,836
Speaker 1: think again right around the idea of intellectual humility, which

718
00:34:17,996 --> 00:34:20,996
Speaker 1: is how do we face challenges to what we know

719
00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:23,956
Speaker 1: or what we think? Do we view them as threats

720
00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:26,796
Speaker 1: to who we are? Or do we view them as

721
00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:30,316
Speaker 1: chances to grow and learn? And I think that oftentimes

722
00:34:30,356 --> 00:34:33,716
Speaker 1: we do the first, because we confuse our opinions with

723
00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:36,876
Speaker 1: our self worth, right, And I think that oftentimes, especially

724
00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:40,156
Speaker 1: in a social media environment where people are very uncharitable

725
00:34:40,396 --> 00:34:44,436
Speaker 1: and waiting to pounce on any inconsistency or whole in

726
00:34:44,556 --> 00:34:47,756
Speaker 1: somebody else's argument, it makes sense to be very protective

727
00:34:48,036 --> 00:34:50,956
Speaker 1: of our opinions. But that's probably not the world we

728
00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:52,476
Speaker 1: want to live in. I don't know about you, but

729
00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:55,396
Speaker 1: if Twitter was somehow turned into a three dimensional space,

730
00:34:55,436 --> 00:34:57,276
Speaker 1: I would try to get as far away from it

731
00:34:57,356 --> 00:35:01,236
Speaker 1: as possible. Right Instead, I think we want to live

732
00:35:01,396 --> 00:35:04,556
Speaker 1: in a world where we can support each other at

733
00:35:04,596 --> 00:35:07,916
Speaker 1: a broad level and challenge each other at a specific level,

734
00:35:07,996 --> 00:35:11,516
Speaker 1: again getting at that idea of task versus relational conflict,

735
00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:14,676
Speaker 1: but at a bigger picture level. So I mean, oftentimes

736
00:35:14,756 --> 00:35:17,036
Speaker 1: with my own students and in my own lab, we

737
00:35:17,196 --> 00:35:20,836
Speaker 1: love to disagree because disagreeing is one of the ways

738
00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:23,796
Speaker 1: that we can test our own assumptions and become a

739
00:35:23,916 --> 00:35:27,036
Speaker 1: little bit less wrong in the future. There's an element

740
00:35:27,276 --> 00:35:31,836
Speaker 1: of intellectual bravery to being open to your assumptions being challenged.

741
00:35:31,996 --> 00:35:34,036
Speaker 1: The thing is, and this is what I think a

742
00:35:34,116 --> 00:35:36,676
Speaker 1: lot about as well, is that it's not enough to

743
00:35:36,836 --> 00:35:40,396
Speaker 1: be intellectually brave in conversation, because that's not always our default.

744
00:35:40,636 --> 00:35:43,396
Speaker 1: In order to cultivate that bravery, we need to feel

745
00:35:43,436 --> 00:35:47,436
Speaker 1: as though we are socially safe. So empathy, compassion, and

746
00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:51,476
Speaker 1: mutual support, shared values. Conversations about all of these things

747
00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:54,636
Speaker 1: and about our connections to each other lay the foundation

748
00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:58,316
Speaker 1: for a more open minded and productive disagreement. Ell of

749
00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:00,516
Speaker 1: ending on this idea of bravery because I think that

750
00:36:00,876 --> 00:36:02,956
Speaker 1: it really underlies a lot of what we've been talking

751
00:36:02,956 --> 00:36:05,516
Speaker 1: about today. We kind of need to be brave to

752
00:36:05,836 --> 00:36:08,396
Speaker 1: challenge our assumptions about what other people are like. If

753
00:36:08,476 --> 00:36:10,996
Speaker 1: we want to reconnect and make friends, we kind of

754
00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:13,476
Speaker 1: have to be brave and face the fact that we

755
00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:16,156
Speaker 1: might not be able to fully help somebody who's feeling

756
00:36:16,276 --> 00:36:18,036
Speaker 1: like they're in a difficult spot. But you know, we

757
00:36:18,276 --> 00:36:20,236
Speaker 1: are brave enough to kind of take those first steps

758
00:36:20,276 --> 00:36:22,156
Speaker 1: and listen. And if we want to deal with the

759
00:36:22,196 --> 00:36:24,476
Speaker 1: disagreements we're facing, we kind of need to be intellectually

760
00:36:24,556 --> 00:36:27,516
Speaker 1: brave and allow ourselves to feel challenged, but do that

761
00:36:27,636 --> 00:36:29,796
Speaker 1: with a bit of a growth mindset. And all these cases,

762
00:36:29,836 --> 00:36:32,236
Speaker 1: we're just taking the research on social connection and sort

763
00:36:32,236 --> 00:36:33,836
Speaker 1: of bringing it to the four But do you think

764
00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:36,636
Speaker 1: that understanding these things better can really make us brave

765
00:36:36,756 --> 00:36:38,236
Speaker 1: in that way? Like, do you think that knowing the

766
00:36:38,316 --> 00:36:40,556
Speaker 1: science has helped you become braver in terms of your

767
00:36:40,596 --> 00:36:43,396
Speaker 1: social connection and in terms of your empathic concern I

768
00:36:43,516 --> 00:36:45,996
Speaker 1: think that it has when I can apply it. There

769
00:36:46,036 --> 00:36:48,516
Speaker 1: are so many cases when we really feel like we're

770
00:36:48,596 --> 00:36:51,156
Speaker 1: under a lot of threat and it's really hard to

771
00:36:51,516 --> 00:36:54,556
Speaker 1: do much of anything except try to survive. But I

772
00:36:54,636 --> 00:36:57,916
Speaker 1: think when I'm able to have the patience with myself

773
00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:01,996
Speaker 1: to slow down and remember what the science tells me,

774
00:37:02,276 --> 00:37:05,156
Speaker 1: then yeah, I have found it to be extremely helpful,

775
00:37:05,516 --> 00:37:07,916
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of your listeners have as well.

776
00:37:08,116 --> 00:37:09,556
Speaker 1: You Know, one thing that I want to say about

777
00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:13,396
Speaker 1: bravery is that oftentimes we think of expressing bravery as

778
00:37:13,636 --> 00:37:16,476
Speaker 1: doing something brand new that we've never done before. It's

779
00:37:16,516 --> 00:37:19,916
Speaker 1: like the psychological equivalent of being Alex Hanald and you know,

780
00:37:20,996 --> 00:37:23,756
Speaker 1: and climbing the face of Al Capitan with no rope.

781
00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:26,116
Speaker 1: But a lot of us have been in a giant

782
00:37:26,316 --> 00:37:29,636
Speaker 1: valley over the last two years, we've lost altitude, and

783
00:37:30,036 --> 00:37:32,676
Speaker 1: so one thing that I want to emphasize to everybody

784
00:37:32,796 --> 00:37:35,756
Speaker 1: is that it's also brave to return to where we were.

785
00:37:35,916 --> 00:37:38,276
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of work to get back to

786
00:37:38,436 --> 00:37:41,836
Speaker 1: that sense of connection, that sense of togetherness that we

787
00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:45,396
Speaker 1: had before the pandemic. And I hope people give themselves

788
00:37:45,436 --> 00:37:48,036
Speaker 1: credit not just for being brave and trying new things,

789
00:37:48,516 --> 00:37:51,276
Speaker 1: but for being brave and trying old things too well.

790
00:37:51,316 --> 00:37:53,716
Speaker 1: A lovely way to end as usual, Jamie, You're amazing.

791
00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:56,596
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for reminding me about the importance

792
00:37:56,636 --> 00:37:59,316
Speaker 1: of being brave and being self compassionate as we all

793
00:37:59,436 --> 00:38:02,556
Speaker 1: return to the old normal new one of the normals

794
00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:04,596
Speaker 1: that we're all going back to. You've been fantastic. Thank

795
00:38:04,596 --> 00:38:06,756
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on Happiness Lab today. Oh Laurie,

796
00:38:06,836 --> 00:38:08,756
Speaker 1: my friend, it is always such a delight to talk

797
00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:11,756
Speaker 1: with you. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks

798
00:38:11,796 --> 00:38:14,956
Speaker 1: again to our rockstar guest Jamil Zaki. For more wonderful

799
00:38:14,996 --> 00:38:17,876
Speaker 1: wisdom from Jamille, check out his book The War for Kindness,

800
00:38:18,076 --> 00:38:21,356
Speaker 1: Building Empathy in a Fractured World. And thanks so so

801
00:38:21,556 --> 00:38:23,396
Speaker 1: much to all of you who roll in with questions

802
00:38:23,436 --> 00:38:25,836
Speaker 1: for this episode. If you have a question we didn't cover,

803
00:38:26,036 --> 00:38:28,516
Speaker 1: then send us an email. You can reach us at

804
00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:33,436
Speaker 1: THHL Voice at Pushkin dot fm. That's tl v O

805
00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:37,796
Speaker 1: I c E at push ki n dot fm. You

806
00:38:37,876 --> 00:38:40,676
Speaker 1: can also contact me on Twitter or Instagram and I

807
00:38:40,756 --> 00:38:43,196
Speaker 1: hope you'll be back really soon for the next episode

808
00:38:43,356 --> 00:38:46,796
Speaker 1: of The Happiness Lab. Listener Questions Special Edition with Me

809
00:38:47,116 --> 00:38:55,116
Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is co written and

810
00:38:55,196 --> 00:38:59,036
Speaker 1: produced by Ryan Dilley, Emily Ann Vaughan and Courtney Guerino.

811
00:38:59,556 --> 00:39:03,876
Speaker 1: Our original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing,

812
00:39:03,916 --> 00:39:08,356
Speaker 1: and mastering by Evan Viola. Special thanks to Meilabelle, Heather Faine,

813
00:39:08,556 --> 00:39:13,156
Speaker 1: John Ours, Carl Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Brant Haynes, Maggie Taylor,

814
00:39:13,436 --> 00:39:18,316
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent,

815
00:39:18,516 --> 00:39:21,596
Speaker 1: Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by

816
00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:25,556
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and me, Doctor Laurie Santos. To find more

817
00:39:25,596 --> 00:39:29,716
Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

818
00:39:29,756 --> 00:39:31,316
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcasts,