1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone's surprised. It's Brian and we're back with the 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: show a week early and have got a bonus episode 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: of the podcast. Well, actually I have a bonus episode 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: for you. Katie is off filming several documentaries for National Geographic, 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: which you're gonna be hearing a lot more about in 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: the new year. They're actually pretty extraordinary and cover a 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: wide range of topics. But for this episode, I sat 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: down with my friend Steve Leader, who is better known 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: as Rabbi Leader. He is the senior Rabbi at Wilsher 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: Boulevard Temple in Los Angeles. Steve is one of the warmest, 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: most thoughtful, wisest people I have ever met. He's a 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: very deep thinker and full of the kind of wisdom 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: that you'd hope for that I think all of us 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: are seeking from a religious leader or a leader in 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: any walk of life. And our conversation centered on topics 16 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: from his new book Bok, which is called More Beautiful 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Than Before, how suffering transforms us. And I know that 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're not in the mood to hear 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: about suffering, but I think all of us in life 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: go through various challenges. The illness of a loved one, 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: whatever hardship gets in our way. And I think that 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: from thirty years as a rabbi ministering to a lot 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: of people, Steve has drawn lessons that are going to 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: be very useful in the lives of just about everyone 25 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: I know, and hopefully in the lives of people listening 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: to our show. So we talked about everything from the 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: drawbacks of working too hard to finding meaning in life's 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: most difficult moments. So I hope you'll enjoy this episode. 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: Check it out and let us know what you think. So, 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: you've written this book more beautiful than before. What inspired 31 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: you to write about tragedy and crisis and pain as 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: a friend of mine? In describing my job, which of 33 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: course is also very much my life as the senior 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: rabbi one of the largest congregations in the world, he 35 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: described it as having a front row seat to life. 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: I've been on the inside of other people's lives for 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: thirty years, and that definitionally means I have been witnessed 38 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: to an awful lot of pain, and so I've learned 39 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: an awful lot about pain, healing, growth, surviving. The first 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: essay in the book is called when you must You can, 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: which is so important to have faith in when the 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: darkness comes. You were sidelined by a major health problem, 43 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: which I think is part of what led you to this. 44 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: Can you describe that? Uh? So? I'm I'm a person 45 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: who has always worked extremely hard, punched above my weight, 46 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: um making enormous sacrifices because I believe in what I do, 47 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: and it's a noble calling and and a worthy life 48 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: to help others. But it takes its toll. For me. 49 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: Part of the toll was ignoring my own body and 50 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: the signals from my own body. So I was in 51 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: a pretty serious car accident, from which I believed at 52 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: the time I had walked away, you know, unscathed. And 53 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: then about two or three months later, I started having 54 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: these horrible shooting pains, and I ignored it, and I 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: ignored it, and I ignored it, and I continued to work. 56 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: And one day I was essentially paralyzed from the waist down. 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: I could not move, and this was the first time 58 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: in my life when I could not will myself to 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: do something. I made it about three feet into my 60 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: study and I just bawled up in a fetal position 61 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: and started weeping and begging for morphine. It was that bad. 62 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: It was torture, and that started me down this path. 63 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things when you're rabbi for 64 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: a large community, there are a lot of doctors who 65 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: want to take good care of you. So I had 66 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: three different doctors prescribing pain killers, opioids, and steroids trying 67 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: to get me through this, and I became dependent on 68 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: these opioids. You you literally start eating them like like 69 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: they're candy. And I would say it was about a 70 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: five or six month period and I became very depressed. 71 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: I had never been a depressed person before, and the 72 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: depression was very deep, very dark, very heavy. The way 73 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: I described it to people who don't understand what it 74 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: means to be depressed is that you literally see no 75 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: purpose or reason for living. You're not suicidal, You're just 76 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: entirely without ambition or purpose. Do you believe the opioids 77 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: caused the depression. I think it was a combination of 78 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: being at that time a fifty four year old man 79 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: discovering that he was not immort and the steroids and 80 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: the opioids. I had something called posteroidal dysphoria, which is 81 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: you know athletes have this. They either rage or they 82 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: get depressed, and I got depressed. Uh, and this caused 83 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: me to start really thinking about my life in a 84 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: new way. And I made the decision that I was 85 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: going to seek help and that I was going to 86 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: turn this into a midlife opportunity and not a midlife crisis, because, 87 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: believe me, it could have gone either way. So you 88 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: talk in the book about workaholism as the last acceptable 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: is um. There are other is ms racism, sexism that 90 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: we've all agreed, or at least many of us hopefully 91 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: should be exercised from our society. But why has workaholism 92 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: stuck as the thing that is okay and in fact 93 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: admirable to a lot of people. Well, I think part 94 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: of it is the value we place in our culture 95 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: on net worth, the ways in which we continue to 96 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: find ourselves by what we do in quotation marks. I 97 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: do a lot of funerals, and I'm always amazed at 98 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: the uniformity of inscriptions on headstones. You know, when you 99 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: have to distill a person's life down to fifteen characters 100 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: per line, it is essentialism at its most essential. And 101 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: what do most headstones say? Not your resume, not your 102 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: g P. A not your net worth. Most of them 103 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: say loving husband, father, grandfather, friend, loving wife, mother, grandmother, friend, 104 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: loving brother, loving sister, that's it. So what you're saying 105 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: is we should think more about our headstones that our resumes. 106 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,239 Speaker 1: That's correct, and more about our headstones than our net worth, 107 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: and to understand that our net worth and our self 108 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: worth are not the same. Now, it's impossible given the 109 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: culture in which we live, which bombards us with message 110 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: is about the meaning of things, of the material. It's 111 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: impossible not to be affected by that. All of us 112 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: are I am, you are? All of us are? Can 113 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: you be aware of that and then do something with 114 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: your life that isn't completely informed by it? So let's 115 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: go back so that our listeners can get to know 116 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: you a little bit better. You write in the book 117 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: about how both your parents fled poverty and abuse. They 118 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: had five kids, including you, before they turned thirty. Your 119 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: dad ran a junkyard. You grew up in Minnesota. You 120 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: write pretty bluntly in the book about your father as 121 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: belittling and tyrannical. Tell me about that childhood and how 122 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: somehow you emerged as the wise and benevolent person whom 123 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: we all know well, sometimes our parents teach us what 124 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: not to be. But I grew up in a house 125 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: where there was a lot of anxiety and fear. My 126 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: parents were seventeen and eighteen when they got married. They 127 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: knew nothing about parenting. They felt that if they, you know, 128 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: didn't beat us, they were a vast improvement over their 129 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: own parents, and that was enough. And my father's entire 130 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: life was about work and it was the only thing 131 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: that mattered to him. He had great insecurity about money. Um, 132 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: he was not a Holocaust survivor nor the child of 133 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: Holocauster Harbors, but he still buried gold coins in the 134 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: backyard in case we'd have to make a run for it. 135 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: And this isn't, you know, a suburb of Minneapolis, as 136 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: if the Cossacks were or the the s s were 137 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: beating down our doors. So my dad was a blue 138 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: collar guy, you know. He grew up in that world. 139 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: He lived in that world. He did not own a 140 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: metal recycling business. He owned a junkyard and I started 141 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: working for my father on saturdays when I was five 142 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: years old. When I was five years old, I was 143 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: on the floor in that junkyard scrubbing it with a 144 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: scrub brush. And a bucket on my hands and knees, 145 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: and all, I want to see our elbows and asses. 146 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: And my dad would say I, all, I want to 147 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: see our asses and elbows. And I was five and 148 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: that was my life until frankly, I suffered this injury. 149 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: That was the first time that I woke up and 150 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: thought to myself, I have been my father. I have 151 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: been the driving, critical, belittling person my father was, and 152 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: I went to work changing that. And the end result 153 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: of that, Brian, is that I realized that the physical pain, 154 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: while at the time so crushing and depressing, was ultimately 155 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: what liberated me from the tyranny of my father, because 156 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: it helped me choose to change and lead a different 157 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: kind of life. There's something about brokenness that actually makes 158 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: us more whole. So do you believe pain is often 159 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: or even always character building, because sometimes it just seems awful? 160 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: It is? It is always awful. You know a friend 161 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: of mine who had cancer three times, and the third 162 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: time I was visiting him in his hospital and he 163 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: was clearly dying and he looked up at me and 164 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: he said, this much character I don't need, you know. So, 165 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: this is not a book about glorifying pain. But the 166 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: fact of the matter is we don't get to choose 167 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: these painful things has happened to us with no control 168 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: over most of them. The only thing we have any 169 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: control over is whether or not we make something of 170 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: our pain. You know. That's what I mean when I 171 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: say in the first paragraph that everyone goes through hell, 172 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: but the point is not to walk out empty handed. 173 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: And I'm not even for a moment positing that these 174 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: painful experiences are worth the insights and changes they can 175 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: create within us. But I am saying neither are they 176 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: worth less. So there are a lot of lessons in 177 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: the book about how to grow and become a better 178 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: person having experienced pain, or helping those around you who 179 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: are in pain. Um, let's let's just go through some 180 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: of them. Um, there's a word henany that comes up. 181 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Henany is a Hebrew word that 182 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: means here i am. It is spoken by the two 183 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: greatest men of the Bible, and that's Moses and Abraham, 184 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: not in that order. When called by God and called 185 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: by others, they simply say henani, here I am. I 186 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: give a piece of advice in the book that anyone 187 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: who has suffered, I think will validate in the book. 188 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: I tell people never to say these seven words when 189 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: someone you know is suffering. Never say let me know 190 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: if you need anything. That smacks of false empathy. And 191 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: even if it's sincere, it's nevertheless placing the burden upon 192 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: the sufferer. That is not love, and that is not care, 193 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: and that is not friendship. You should anticipate the sufferer's 194 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: needs and meet them without being asked or being told. 195 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: Figure something out. You can do, whatever it is, a 196 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: meal dropped off at the front door, car pooling for 197 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: their kids, play dates for their kids, sending a massage 198 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: therapist to their home, simply emails and calls. Uh, you 199 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: know in cards. These things matter and you should not 200 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: wait to be asked. Show up. People call me all 201 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: the time and say, Rabbi, my best friend is dying. 202 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: He's been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. I'm flying back to 203 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: New York to visit him. I don't know what to say. 204 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: My advice just walk in the room. The rest will 205 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: take care of itself. Just walk in the room. Show up. 206 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: I have this and I've been visiting the sick and 207 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: and distressed for thirty years and often I don't know 208 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: what I'm going to say. I only know I need 209 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: to walk in that door because it's the feeling of 210 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: isolation an abandonment that is one of the worst aspects 211 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: of pain, and when someone just shows up, it pierces 212 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: that sense of isolation and abandonment. Let's take a quick 213 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: break and I'll be right back with more of Rabbi 214 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: Steve Leader. One of the most powerful parts in the book, 215 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: to me at least, was when you wrote that everyone 216 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: is in pain, the stranger on the subway, the guy 217 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: who cut us off while we're driving. That you need 218 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: to have some empathy and recognition of the fact that 219 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: other people in the world are facing challenges. They're not 220 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: just acting like schmucks. That's right. There's a reason why 221 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: people behave the way they do, you know. Speaking of Henani, 222 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: here I Am. That's the title of Jonathan Saffron Feuyer's 223 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: relatively new novel Uh. And in that novel, there's there's 224 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: a wonderful line which I quote in the book, in 225 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: which he says everyone is wounded, and if you can 226 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: remember a person's wounds, it makes it easier to forgive. 227 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: Because people don't wake up in the morning deciding to 228 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: be bad human beings unless you're a psychopath, and there 229 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: are some, but very few. Uh So, it's very important 230 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: to remember that we are no different and others are 231 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: no different. Sometimes when people come to me with some 232 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: sense of, you know, self righteous indignation at the behavior 233 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: of another, I sometimes say to them, are you so perfect? Well? 234 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: And and where do we draw the line and say 235 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: that this person doesn't deserve empathy? You know, Harvey Weinstein 236 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: has been all over the news. Uh And and that's 237 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: led to a flood of stories about sexual harassment and 238 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: assault in our society. Do we forgive the harasser? There's 239 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: a difference between empathy and forgiveness. They're not the same. 240 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: Can we empathize with a person whose life and ego 241 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: are so out of control that he's willing to frighten 242 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: and abuse innocent and vulnerable women? Can we empathize with that? 243 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: I would say I can in the sense that the 244 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: degree of um insanity behind the behavior to me indicates 245 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: a pretty enormous degree of inner turmoil, dysfunction, or at 246 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: the very least lack of humility, an extreme and enormous 247 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: degree of narcissism, and by the way, empathy for the 248 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: perpetrator does not preclude empathy for the victims. Everyone loses. 249 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: Everyone loses. Now, what about forgiveness? Uh, forgiveness? And again 250 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: I talked about this in the book based on the 251 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: work of my Mondi is the greatest rabbi and Jewish 252 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: teacher of the medieval period. Died over eight hundred years ago. 253 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: Over eight hundred years ago, he worked out this system 254 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: by which you can determine whether or not a person 255 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: merits forgiveness four steps. Four steps. First, the person has 256 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: to stop the behavior. Stop. Secondly, confess that behavior out loud. 257 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: There is a big difference between saying to oneself, I'm 258 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: a sex addict, I'm a gambler, I have an anger problem. 259 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: There's a big difference between saying that internally and actually 260 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: saying it out loud to God and another person. Thirdly, 261 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: you have to apologize and seek forgiveness. And finally, you 262 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: have to avoid repeating that sin or behavior when given 263 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: another opportunity to do so. If you go through those 264 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: four steps, you deserve to be forgiven, and the victim 265 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: is obligated to forgive. And if the victim does not 266 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: forgive three times, says my monides. The sin is then 267 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: upon the victim. People have a right to change the 268 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: three strikes that you're out well one strike. If the 269 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: change isn't sincere and you don't go through these steps, 270 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: you don't merit forgiveness. And I would also say that 271 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. But if there's been a true 272 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: and sincere change, and the behavior has stopped and isn't repeated, 273 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: you can forgive. You don't have to forget that it happened. 274 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: You can't forget that it happened. I've learned over the 275 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: years that the most important things are said with the 276 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: fewest words. I do you know it's a boy, it's 277 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: a girl. Yes, I'm sorry, no more than i'm sorry. 278 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: In the book, I talked about something related to apology 279 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: and forgiveness that I think is more profound than i'm sorry. 280 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: And they're the three hardest words for most human beings 281 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: to say, which are I was wrong. Saying I was 282 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: wrong is a much higher degree of culpability than I'm sorry. 283 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You can mean i'm sorry it happened, I'm sorry, 284 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: I got caught. I'm sorry, I'm sorry you're offended. There's 285 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: a lot of wiggle room and I'm sorry, I was 286 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: wrong is a full acceptance of full responsibility and I'll 287 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: tell you something. It immediately takes the sting out. It 288 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: immediately changes the barametric pressure in the relationship. And look, 289 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: people are hesitant to say it mostly has of ego 290 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: and pride. There's a reason foolish pride are words that 291 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: go together often. But it is also true that we 292 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: live in a culture that punishes people for accepting responsibility 293 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: and saying I'm sorry. You know, doctors, when they make 294 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: a mistake are told never to say I was wrong, right, 295 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: They're told to shut up and lawyer up. But there 296 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: are over thirty states now that have something called a 297 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: no fault apology law. This is very interesting to me. 298 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: And no fault apology law allows a physician to apologize 299 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: to a patient for a mistake without it being admissible 300 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: in court. And what do you think has happened in 301 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: the states that have been no fault apology laws, number 302 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: of lawsuits go way down, plumb it, They plummet because 303 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: people don't really want to soothe their doctors. They just 304 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: want someone to take responsibility and say I was wrong 305 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry. This is not only true between doctors 306 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: and patients. This is true between husbands and wives, between 307 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: parents and children, and brothers and sisters. I was wrong 308 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: is an extraordinary antidote to the bitterness of pain. So 309 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: another extraordinary antidote to pain that you talk about in 310 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: the book Towards Thank You. You talk about the power 311 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: of gratitude in combating depression, in overcoming anxiety, and making 312 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: our lives better, both the person expressing gratitude as well 313 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: as the person receiving it. Yes, yes, uh. There's something 314 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: called a gratitude experiment, which is you, in three words, 315 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: you write a statement of gratitude to someone in your life, 316 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: and then you actually go and share it read it 317 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: to them. When people do this, there's almost always just 318 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: deluge of tears, and people report feeling happier and less depressed. 319 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: We all want to be appreciated. It sounds a little 320 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: facile to say, count your blessings, but it's really a 321 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: very important and powerful way to live. And you know, 322 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: this also goes along with an another concept in the 323 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: book that I think is so important, which is the 324 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: dangers of catastrophizing the future. You know, our DNA survived 325 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: because we're the descendants of people who lived as if 326 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: there was a tiger behind every tree. But things rarely, 327 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: rarely turn out commensurate with our nightmares about how we 328 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: believe they're going to turn out. And the less time 329 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: we spend catastrophizing the future when we're in a difficult situation, 330 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: the better. There's documented evidence that people in pain who 331 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: catastrophies the future feel exponentially greater pain than those who don't. 332 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: And so this involves changing messages from this is the 333 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: worst thing that's ever happened to me too. I've been 334 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: through other difficult things and I will get through this. 335 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: I can no longer do these things too. This is 336 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: going to lead me to new things. This happened with 337 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: me with my back. There are lots of things I 338 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: used to love that I can't do any longer. I'm 339 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: just physically incapable of them. They have been replaced with 340 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: some beautiful things that I never would have engaged in before. 341 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: I've spent more time in nature now, just walking. You know, 342 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: I used to love to do something called bouldering and 343 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: Joshua Tree in California. Joshua Tree is an extraordinary place. 344 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: It's a state park the size of the state of 345 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: Rhode Island. It's filled with these enormous boulders. And I 346 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: used to boulder, which means essentially scampering up over these things. 347 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: And I can't do that any longer. So what do 348 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: I do now? When I go to Joshua Tree, I 349 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: go and find a small boulder that I can easily 350 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: just step up onto, and I sit there and I 351 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: let nature come to me. I hear the wind, I 352 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: feel the breeze. I notice the subtle color changes as 353 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: the day progresses. I see the lone coyote trotting, you know, 354 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: through the underbrush. And the way I put this in 355 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: the book is that I used to chase after God 356 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: and chase after prayer, and now I've learned that if 357 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: you sit still, the prayer comes to you. Another big 358 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: fact of your biography is your marriage. You and your 359 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: wife were both in pain as a result of bad breakups. 360 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: You met and decided to be married after a few days. Yeah, 361 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: we got engaged on our second date and and and 362 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: have had a wonderful relationship. But that relationship changed during 363 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: your illness. What happened, Well, just to give you a 364 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: little more specificity about our meeting, I've met Betsy days 365 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: after she had finished radiation therapy for Hodgkins disease. She 366 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: had no hair on the back of her head and 367 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: I had just gone through this horrible breakup. I was 368 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: twenty three and thought the world was ending. We talked 369 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: for twelve hours about what she'd been through, and it 370 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: was very clear to me that because of what she 371 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: had been through, she was able to understand me in 372 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: a way that most people had not at our age. 373 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: You know, we were kids. And I literally turned to 374 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: her on our second date and I said, you know, 375 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 1: I don't know if I should say this or not, 376 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: but I think you're in And she looked at me 377 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: and she said I feel the same way. And then 378 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 1: as only you know, a dumb twenty three year old can, 379 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: and I looked at her and I said, so are 380 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 1: we engaged? And she said I guess so. And that 381 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: was it. We called our families, uh so, But it 382 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: was pain that brought us together. The phone call was hilarious. 383 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: I called my I called my parents. They both get 384 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: on the phone and I say, I'm getting married and 385 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: they both said to who. Yeah, I said, look to 386 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: this girl and met last week And I said what 387 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: And my father being my father said Stephen, you're not 388 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: getting married, you're thinking about getting married, at which point 389 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can say this on a podcast. 390 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: At which point, when my father said you're not getting married, 391 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: you think about getting married, I said to my father, Dad, 392 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: don't fuck this up. At which point my mother said, 393 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: we're looking forward to meeting her. Huh, And we flew 394 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: out to California so they could meet Betsy. Ten minutes 395 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: after meeting her, my mother leaned over to me and said, 396 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: she's perfect. Look, we've had our challenges with our children, 397 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: with health, with money, with sex, with work, with all 398 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: the things that every couple is challenged by. But it's 399 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: it's been magical since the moment she walked in the room. 400 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: And that hasn't changed. My heart still skips a beat 401 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: when she walks in the room, and you know she 402 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: has been through a couple of very serious diseases. And 403 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: in the book, I have a chapter called an Intimate Invitation. 404 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: One of the things that pain can create, as paradox 405 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: or counterintuitive as this may sound, is extraordinary intimacy between people. 406 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: When Betsy had abdominal surgery, she came home with three drains, 407 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: hanging out of her, and it was my job to 408 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: empty her drains. And it was the most intimate thing 409 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: I have ever done for another human being. That pain 410 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: and her need and her vulnerability drew us close in 411 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: a way we could not have imagined. So too, when 412 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: I was going through my pain and my depression, the withdrawal, 413 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: she was the only glimmer of light. She was the 414 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: only person and my children, really Betsy carried me to 415 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: the bathroom. Pain is a very intimate opportunity, and you 416 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: also have to be willing to let people in. You know, 417 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: if you are not willing to allow others in to 418 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: be intimate to help you, if you're not willing to 419 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: reach out, then you have a very good chance of 420 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: coming out of hell empty handed. So one last topic 421 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: I want to cover before we run out of time, 422 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: which is the role of a rabbi in public life. Um, 423 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: where do you draw the line about when you can 424 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: weigh in on a contentious topic and when you think 425 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: it's not appropriate. So I feel very comfortable when judaism 426 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: is absolutely clear. When you're dealing with something about a 427 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: republican or democratic approach to something, you're talking about people 428 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: who generally have the same goal in mind, but two 429 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: very different ideas about how to get there. It's not 430 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: my expertise. And when you have someone like Trump in 431 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: the White House, for example, if I start weighing in, 432 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: that is a full time job to be a pundit 433 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: responding to you know, the craziness that comes out of 434 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: the White House every single day. I'm a pretty busy guy. 435 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: And furthermore, nothing I say matters on that score. I 436 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: have no control over what happens in the White House. 437 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: The other issue, of course, is I am not the 438 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: by a small, homogeneous congregation of like minded people. We 439 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: have members of our congregation. We have twenty four hundred 440 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: families in our congregation. If Jews had a megachurch, we 441 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: would be at three campuses families too early childhood centers, 442 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: to elementary schools, to sleepaway camps, and a conference center. 443 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: We are a heterogeneous community bound together by certain values 444 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: that transcend who's in the White House and who is 445 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: not in the White House. And I think it's my 446 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: job to focus on that more than the politics. D jore. 447 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: But you have to wait in on some current topics. 448 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: For example, there was an episode of The West Wing 449 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: in which a rabbi gives a sermon against the death penalty, 450 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: and I wrote that sermon, and you wrote that sermon. 451 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: Let's listen to that sermon was passed over on the horizon. 452 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: Millions of Jews will gather around stated tables. We'll sing 453 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: our songs and a scout questions about the stick that beats, 454 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: the dog that bit the cat that ain't. The kid 455 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: will sing not only to entertain our children, but to 456 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: be reminded by the Hagaddha the simple truth that violence 457 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: he gets violence vengeance is not Jewish. So the beeping 458 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: in that recording was actually part of the show. Is 459 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: back in the day when people had beepers um. But 460 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: you wait in on the death penalty. Where do you 461 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: draw the line about when you can weigh in on 462 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: a contentious topic and when you think it's not appropriate. 463 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: When Jewish tradition and law is absolutely clear on the point, 464 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: there is no question about it. While the Bible and 465 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: the Torah permit capital punishment, the rabbis of the tal 466 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: Mutic period made it legislatively impossible to implement the requirements 467 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: for rules of evidence, witnesses, and the fact that it 468 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: could only be meeted out by the Sanhedrin, which hasn't 469 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: been in existence and won't be again for two thousand years. 470 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: The rabbis made their view extremely clear. There's no equivocating 471 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: about it, and so I feel comfortable sharing that, and 472 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm sharing Jewish tradition. You notice in there you did 473 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: not hear a bunch of statistics, Uh, you know, from 474 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: Time magazine or Newsweek or some website. So I feel 475 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: very comfortable when Judaism is absolutely clear. You know, I'll 476 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: tell you. I'll tell you quickly. I know we don't 477 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: have much time, but uh, this year, during a break 478 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: between services and the Key Poor, we had a panel 479 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: discussion sort of an asked the rabbi town meeting kind 480 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: of thing, and a friend of mine who used to 481 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: run the New York Times bureau here in Los Angeles, 482 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: moderated it for me, and I said, people need to 483 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: write their question down and pass them into you. You 484 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: go through them, and then you pull out the German questions. 485 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: It did. Afterwards, he said to me, Steve, you know, 486 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: I'm one of those people that's wanted you to weigh 487 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: in about Trump and politics, etcetera. But after reading these questions, 488 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: I've changed my mind. I think your posture is the 489 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: correct posture, because this is a very very bitterly divided 490 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: congregation politically, and you frankly have no business waiting into 491 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: that unless these are extraordinary, transcendent moral issues like capital punishment, etcetera, 492 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: or like racism, bigoty, etcetera. But I am not going 493 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: to get into the politics, d jure, because I think 494 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: that's just a road to nowhere. Well, one place where 495 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: you do weigh in and where I think you do 496 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: make an enormous difference, is how all of us can 497 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: use empathy and forgiveness and use the pain and the 498 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: suffering that are inevitable in life to make ourselves more 499 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: just and generous and happier people. And that's really the 500 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: purpose of this book. It's an extraordinary book. I highly recommended. 501 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: It's called More Beautiful than Before. Rabbi Steve Leader, thanks 502 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: so much for being here. Thank you for an honor 503 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: to be here. Thank you to the terrific Current Podcast 504 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: production team. As always, that's Gianna Palmer, our producer, Jared O'Connell, 505 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: our audio engineer, Cody Scully, our engineer here in l A, 506 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: and Nora Richie, our production assistant. Thanks also to social 507 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: media wunderkind Alison Bresnik, and the unflappable Emily Beena over 508 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: at Katie Current Media. Katie and I are the show's 509 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: executive producers, and Mark Phillips wrote our theme music, which 510 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: is a very catchy tune. I'm sure you all agree. 511 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: Remember you can email us with your guest ideas, questions 512 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: and feedback at comments at current podcast dot com. That's 513 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: comments at current podcast dot com, or maybe even better, 514 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail at nine to nine, two to four, 515 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: four six three seven. You can find me on Twitter 516 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: at Goldsmith b. Katie is all over the place under 517 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: Katie Curic on every major social media platform except Snapchat, 518 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: where she's Katie dot Kirk. That's it for today's Just 519 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: Brian episode of Your Katie Couric Podcast. And don't worry, 520 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: Katie is gonna be back very soon. Thanks for listening.