WEBVTT - Jack Douglas 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:07.360 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left That's Podcast. 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.240 My guest today is legendary producer and rock and tour 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:16.560 Jack Douglas. Whenever I hear that legendary, I feel like 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.280 Bigfoot or the lock Ness Monster. Well, the point is, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.080 you know, no one's going to be legendary anymore because 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.080 no one reaches as many people. I guess that's true. 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.280 You know, I've been in New York for a while, 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.200 back in New York working and and um, and we've 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.159 had some very interesting dinners like the dinner you attended ago. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:41.519 You know, that mix of mafio so actors and musicians. 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.239 You were really missed. I was. I was tempted to 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.280 call you up and say, Bob, well, next time definitely 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.360 ring me. It sounds good. Well, you know, the last 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:54.120 time we went, Jeff Emrick was there, who's now past 0:00:55.520 --> 0:01:00.480 and that is very sad. Yes, And of course what's 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.640 his role av on the TV show? H He told 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.600 me some really crazy story And of course Richard Lewis 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.520 the only funny thing about Richard Lewis is I always 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.760 thought it was an act. But that's who he really is. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.560 He really is that exactly. It's perfect and you guys 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:23.160 you have had uh, you know, a kerfuffle exactly at Terry. Yeah, 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.320 we want Yeah, it was great and he was like, 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.760 so I said, I said, you know, Bob is going 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.920 to be there, and he got really paranoid, and you know, 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.440 he went into his complete character. I don't know. I mean, 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.400 isn't he mad at me? I What am I gonna 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.560 say to him? Me? It was great? Well at end 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.120 we that night at Ago we had a long discussion. Anyway, 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.960 you're just in from Vegas. You were involved in the 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.120 Erroo Smith residency and in addition, your son is playing 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:52.440 with Erro Smith. Okay, what do you tell us more 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.240 about that? Um? I mean, what's I don't know what 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.800 to say about. Well, this is a live show. People 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:00.960 tend to think of you as a record producers, So 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:02.880 what was your role? Don't know. All I did was 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.960 go up to Boston and do the last two days 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:11.200 of rehearsal with the band so and talk the m 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:16.720 d uh into not us right into not using click 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.880 tracks on the songs that there's no click that you 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.760 know can identify the groove that they sustained on some 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.720 of those old songs. It's like you know, same old 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.080 song and Dancer Mama Can or back in the Saddle 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.080 that they The whole idea of those songs is that 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.040 they're gonna move. They're gonna move up in the chorus 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.440 and then they're gonna go back down and sinking for 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.720 the verse. You can't put a click on them. And 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.760 when he tried to, it was very uncomfortable and the 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:50.920 band sounded kind of, you know, like look like they 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:56.359 were laboring through the songs. So I got that done. Um, 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.880 because Stephen will, I mean, he'll great people, but he 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.919 won't get anything done because of that. So he might 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.720 be attacking the empty but he won't be You want 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.480 to get it done. You're the negotiator. I'm a politician. Yes, 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.920 that's nature of being a record producer. So and my 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.440 son my son, but quite by accident, when we were 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:25.040 up at Johnny Depp studio doing Joe's solo album, my 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.880 son stopped in to see me and and Joseph, doesn't 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:30.880 your son play like a lot of percussion and stuff. 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:34.280 But he's actually he's actually a jazz drummer. He's been 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:39.360 nominated twice for Grammys with the Wayne Wallace Quintet Jazz 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.960 quintet and and he also is a Latin percussionist and 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.920 a world music guy. So um I said, yeah, yes, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.280 So he played on Joe's album. And then I said 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.160 to Joe, you know he he is one of the 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:59.200 only young white men who actually play at Santa Ria. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.320 Um when they when they bring someone into Santoia, they had, well, 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.960 why don't you tell my audience what that is. Santoria 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.720 is an Afro Cuban form of Catholicism with which combines 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:15.680 Catholicism and voodoo and um and it is in Haiti. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.080 And so um my son studied with some of those 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:25.560 drummers they play. They play these amazing drums, and he 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.080 learned to play him and he got into the whole scene, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.599 though he's not a member of Santoria, got into the 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.960 whole scene up in the Bay Area, and then he 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.920 was invited to play. And in order to do that, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:41.560 you have to learn hundreds of chance, these chants that 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.159 go with so you chant as you're playing drums. And 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.600 I told Joe, I said, you know, you know, it's 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.919 all these really odd sounding chance and Joe was like, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:52.720 he's got to do one on the record. And so 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.520 Joe Perry's last solo record starts with my son chanting 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.640 at the beginning of it, and then Joe called me up. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.240 He said, listen, we want to expand the band for Vegas. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.120 Maybe a horn, maybe some strings. Of course, we have 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.760 a keyboard player, having another background singer, and we'd like percussionist. 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.520 Do you think uh Colin would do it? And and 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.880 I couldn't reach Colin. He was in Ethiopia. He was 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.159 gigging in Ethiopia. But when he got back he said, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.919 it sounds like a good change. Okay. Traditionally the drummer 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.120 in the band is the business person. Would you put 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:35.240 your son in that category? Yes, he is the go 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.520 to guy. He he holds it all together in these 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:43.240 jazz groups and world music groups. But Um, but he 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.359 was very uncomfortable with the situation. And Arrowsmith and that 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.760 he felt guilty because all he had to do was play. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.280 I don't have to do anything else to show up 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:57.919 and play, which is cool. So and the rehearsals, um 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.520 rehearsals were really good. Up and balls to and um 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.039 and now the band is They moved to Vegas and 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:09.760 they rehearsed in a facility outside of the theater. H 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.839 and it went pretty Actually, they rehearsed more for this 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.480 show than they ever did for any live gig they 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.320 ever did, because when they sometimes they don't even rehearse. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.440 I mean, after almost fifty years, what do you need 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.000 to rehearse? So um, there was more rehearsal for this 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:30.919 than ever and um, and so the first show was 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.200 slightly fucked up because there was just I think they 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:39.120 were overrehearsed, and Stephen was more thinking about, you know, 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.039 what could go wrong with all this production and the 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.680 and the you should see it really definitely. I saw 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:46.680 some of the clips online. The clip of season of 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.120 Wither with Joe playing the guitar and the two in 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.120 the cheers definitely made my body vibrate. Yeah, I know 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.760 it's it is really good. The production is so amazing. 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.280 And there's a film in the beginning of it, which 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.120 is the history of Aerosmith, which goes on a little 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.120 bit too long, so I don't think you'll ever see 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.400 that whole film again, which runs a little over forty minutes. 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.440 I think people were complaining too much film, not enough music, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.440 but it's very good. The productionist out of this world. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:21.239 That's th h X sound so that's like seventeen points 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.440 of sound and things are just swirling around you and 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.240 the lights are in credits Vegas. Baby, Okay, let's go 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.760 a couple of Aerosmith questions. You know. Legendarily, uh, you know, 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.920 Mick and Keith of the Stones are the glimmer twins 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.560 and Joe and Stephen are the toxic twins. Now, it's 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.680 certainly been proven, especially in light of Keith Richard's book, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.840 that they don't completely get along. Now since you're in 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.280 the belly of the beast, do Joe and Stephen get along? 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.559 Not really? You know, I've often thought about what keeps 0:07:55.600 --> 0:08:01.280 a band together? Um for fifty years, because how many 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:05.160 of your left that are still the actual original players. 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.160 That's the only one I can think. Okay, so you 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.520 know what keeps them together? They're all having the back 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.120 of their heads that one day they're going to get Stephen, 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.000 but they never do. They're all like, one day, I'm 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.560 just gonna get them. Well I didn't get them today, 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:23.680 I'll get them tomorrow. And this has gone. So I 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.840 mean they're a family, u uh, you know, slightly dysfunctional 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:35.080 family and um, and they're all still there's still some 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:42.120 humility and and gratefulness that you know, these are working 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:50.559 class class guys. Um. Not the greatest musicians, certainly, Uh, 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.160 Brad is a really good musician. The rest of them 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.640 are okay musicians. But it's that whole story where you 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.320 take okay people with a lot of character and you 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.720 put them together and they make a special noise together 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.280 that they don't make if you take one of them 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:11.320 out of it. It's just, um, you know, they're amateurs 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:17.319 and they just make a really cool noise together. Stephen 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.800 is exceptional. He's he's brilliant. Well, the funny thing about 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:28.120 Stephen is he can be that guy completely off Mike spontaneously. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.640 He can like spout lyrics you know that he's making up. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.960 You can't believe that he can continue to do it 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.560 just when you run into him. Yeah, it really is. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.960 He's brilliant. He's one of the few rock stars who 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.400 live up to the building. I mean, I've met many 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.760 legendary people, and this always comes up because people tend 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.120 to be disappointed, said, but not Steven Tyler. Oh no, 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.480 and he's and he's uh and open and two strangers first, 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:57.319 I think firstly, I'm not sure which came first, whether 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.800 that somebody told them, keep your fan base. Always been 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.560 good to your fans and they will stick with you, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.400 or whether it was just his natural thing where he 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.840 just loves people. I mean, he loves being with people. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.719 The only people he doesn't really love being with are 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:19.640 the ones that, oh yeah, that's hilarious. So you know, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.080 look at the it's it's a great thing and you 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.440 can't expect guys to be together. Okay, So the first 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.720 Aerosmith album you did was the second Get Your win Rings. Okay, 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.080 the first album, which I certainly bought after hearing dream On, 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:38.880 had dream On and Walking the Dog, but it was uneven. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.240 I will say, how did you get the gig to 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.760 do Get Your Wings? Well, um, two, it came at 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.160 me two ways. The first way was through liber Crebs. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.440 There were managers, right, because that was Aerosmith was the 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.320 baby band. The their hot band at the time was 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.880 the New York Dolls. And I had engineered that first 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.439 album really working with Todd Rundgren. Well, yeah, and Todd 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.000 really didn't care for the band very much. And so 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.160 um Todd was he didn't show up all that. That's 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.600 what the legend is. Yeah, he didn't show up all 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.760 the time, So I mean there's a you know, there 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:24.080 was a moment when he said something to David about, yeah, 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.160 that's gonna sound great when you put some harmony on it. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.640 It was a live vocal. David said, harmony, you accused 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:37.040 of me having melody, so he wasn't. I don't know 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.080 if it was a great match, but any it worked, 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:44.480 but we were left alone quite often, and um, and 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.520 we got the record and Todd came in and we 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:51.800 mixed it in three days maybe but the faders up basically, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.920 but um, and of course I got an engineering crowd 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.160 on it. But Crup said to me, look, we knew, 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:01.800 you know, you were kind of holding some of that 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.960 together because they were tended to be pretty nuts, especially 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:14.760 Johnny Thunders. So uh so their prize for me was Aerosmith. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:20.720 At the same time, Colombia had asked Ezerin to produce 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.480 the next album, and Ezin listened to the first album 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:29.319 and he wasn't really interested in the band and so um, 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.480 but he and I had a partnership at the time 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.440 at Nimbus. We were doing a lot of stuff together 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.680 and he said, why don't you just ask Jack Douglas, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.719 and in doing that he made the call to me, 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.880 not not Krebs. He made the call, but they were 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.080 already into it. But he made the call to me 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.120 and got himself an executive producer and a chunk of 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:54.960 dough out of it, which he still gets, which is 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:59.839 God bless him right now. That album was a quantumly 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.520 forward from the first album, and that is my favorite album. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:05.760 And I still talked to Crabs, who always brings up 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.679 because he knows my favorite song off that album is 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.800 Lord of the Thighs, and he says, well, you know, 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.040 you know, you couldn't have that today in the me 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.840 Too era. It's really kind of funny. I suppose I 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.840 suppose you could. I mean, I don't hear rap records 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.679 changing their lyrics all that much. You'll hear a lot 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.960 of That's an excellent point, But to what degree were 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.880 you the shaper of the material or other things? I'll 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.640 get your wigs. You know, that's the one album where 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.360 they came in with a good amount of material and 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.960 we weren't in the pre production period for two or 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:48.280 three months, so they had some material for it because 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.480 they hadn't started that hardcore touring where they couldn't write 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.520 any right so um I came in with material and 0:13:55.559 --> 0:14:00.320 with and pretty much with lyrics and UM and you 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.920 know you probably noticused that that cat. This cat has 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:04.560 been led out of the bag a long time ago. 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.200 That I use different guitar players for the solos. For 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.240 the big solos, it was you know, Steve Hunter and 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:17.119 Dick Wagner, one guy who were Evan's guys when Yeah, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:21.200 and and with Alice as well of course, so so I, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:27.080 you know, having engineered Alice records and UM, I had 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.560 a good relationship with both those guys. So I made 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.480 a deal with them. I said, look, these guys are 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:36.760 very sensitive about being players. You can't ever have your 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.080 name on the record. You can't ever Please don't talk 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:44.920 about it. You'll be paid well. And after you play 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.120 the solos, you have to teach them line by line 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.920 how to play them themselves, so when they go on 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.680 there old So basically the band is getting great players 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.560 for a number of songs, not all of them, and 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:03.480 they're also getting free guitar lessons. So, uh, to what 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.600 degree did use did those guys play on the subsequent records? 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.640 I never had to use them again. When they put 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.640 the guys on the right course, yes. And when they 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.800 came off the road touring, um that record they were 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.320 they had been playing those solos that you know, they 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.480 learned how to finger and I mean Brad was already 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.440 pretty good, but believe me, they were amateur and um 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.920 and and they wanted to make that step up. And 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.440 I know that Joe was you know, Joe was what 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:35.720 I'm not going to play on my own records, said 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.200 not everything, but you know, train kept a Roland was 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.440 like their thing. You know, It's like, but um, I 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.920 think the only person I let play that played poorly 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:53.120 on a record was Patti Smith on Radio Ethiopia. Because 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.840 I knew that it being just whatever was going to 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:00.320 be played was gonna work. It's like I once told Yoko, 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.000 I don't care if you get in the piano and 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.200 play it or you sit at the school, It'll all work, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.840 will make it work. But this what Stephen had in 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.000 mind for this record was that big leap. And so 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:12.960 when I said to Stephen, we're going to use these 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.200 two players, he was like, absolutely, it's great. Okay, I know, 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.400 but from my audience, tell us, you know, let's go 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.600 to the back story. Where are you from? Originally from 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.600 the Bronx, New York. And your parents did Your father 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.400 did what for a living? He worked in a freight yard. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:35.720 He um, he was a brakeman, and which meant that everything, 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.160 not only everything in our apartment had fallen off a 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:45.800 freight car, but everything in the neighborhood. Like if I 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.640 went down the street, they had the same radio as 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.720 we did, because my father would have a carton of 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.520 them somewhere. And this was, you know, the way it 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:59.080 worked in New York. My father once told me, excuse me, 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:00.680 he was reading a new Space bern. He looked up 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.520 at me and he said, he said, John, do you 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.560 know how much money passes through the city every day? 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.040 If money is important to you? And I said, I 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.080 don't know. He said, some trillion dollars in retail, in 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.520 Wall Street and everything else. He said, I want you 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.199 to imagine it as a great river running through New 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.600 York City. All you have to do is stick your 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.679 hand in it, let enough build up, pull it in, 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.520 and you're on your way. That was his philosophy. And 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.560 now were you the only child? I was the only child? Yes, 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.560 And I lived in a and I lived in a 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.000 a tenement building that was in the in the East 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:46.199 Bronx that was filled with nothing but family who looked 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.639 or acted or was it there were nothing like me whatsoever? 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.760 That was the odd ball. And in school and the 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.480 neighborhood did you fit in? Were you an odd ball there? 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:03.000 I went to Catholic school. Uh, she's strange to think that. 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:08.000 Even from first grade we took a subway. Yeah, I agree. 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.680 The first day of first grade, I just walked out 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.920 of the house. Yeah that's it, you know, and walked 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.240 to walk to the subway. At subway passed, it went 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.000 two stops, got off and and no one. It just 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.760 didn't matter. And then I would walk home if the 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.080 weather was nice. But no, I wasn't an odd ball 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.680 um in school until I got to high school. Then 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:33.439 I was really an oddball. And what caused that? I 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.040 think I was bored with school? So I was, you know, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:41.359 I was. I wasn't too um. A lot of bad 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:47.080 things organized a a group of young men who could 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:53.200 who would rob pet stores. We would uh, we would 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.639 actually drop through the roofs. We and it wasn't like 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.200 we were going to steal money. We were liberty, liberty, 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.080 liberating the animals. So we would take an order for 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:08.639 an animal. Say, say someone wanted, uh, some rare fish, 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.560 and we would write down the name of it, be 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.560 in Latin, whatever, and then we would find a store 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:16.200 in New York that had an aquarium with rare fish 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.399 and we would go to the oh, is that a 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.679 laplos galypus, And then it's very interesting for you. Then 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.040 the guy I would say yeah. The next day it 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:27.360 was gone cats dogs, and we knew how to separate, 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.320 you know, hamsters from kitty cats, and that's what we 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.480 did that for a while. And then I got into um, 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:41.800 I got into heaving, into stealing cars and um, and 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:46.840 it got busted quite often. And then back then, when 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.320 you got busted, you took a beating because it was 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.639 too much paperwork to put you in the system. So 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.720 you would take a beating from the police who loved 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.960 to beat you with phone books because the left no 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.359 left no marks. Yeah, it was pretty brutal, but at 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.320 least they were like, I deserve it. I've been bad 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:11.800 and so um. And so finally I stole a school 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.280 bus and uh, and this time I was really in trouble, 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.920 and um, the judge said, you know, listen, this we 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.239 see way too often and you're always in the lock up. 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.879 My grades were still good. UM, and my parents got 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.520 a lawyer, and the lawyer said that you've got to 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.359 plead insanity that you can't help you Steve. If it 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:36.600 has wheels, you have to take it. I mean, who 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.520 would take up school bus? And so I did, and 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.399 I did UM, and I got ninety days in a 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:48.040 state and nuthouse and UM and that changed my life 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:52.119 because people I met in there that were very When 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.960 I finally worked my way up to other people who 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.439 were avoiding raps, I met a guy who was UM, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.359 who was in was avoiding a attempted murder rap and 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.199 he was very interesting. He was in the theater, he 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:09.000 was in the film business, and he had some friends 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.919 that were that were amazing at Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:15.679 and I started hanging out with those people and they 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.520 changed my life. And in New York at the Beresford 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:25.680 where they were, and and not only did that nuthhouse 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.600 change my life, but when I got drafted and I 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.720 finally got to the shrink, which is at the end 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.960 of when you're doing your thing at Center Street there 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.520 and the last person you see is the shrink. The 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:40.720 shrink said to me, so, John, um, could you kill? 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.880 And I said, well, I think I could. I could kill. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.919 I could kill in self defense. And he kind of 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.440 smiled and he wrote something in his book and then 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:52.879 I said, and that's why I would kill my commanding officer. 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:57.480 And he said to me, have you to have any 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.720 mental problems? And I said, I'm sir fied. And so 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.680 having done that ninety days in a nuthhouse, in a 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.640 state nunhouse, which was not nice for a good bit 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:13.280 of time. It was violent and terrible, it saved It 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.720 saved my career and which you know had been criminal, 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.200 and it saved my life because I would have gone 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:32.760 to Vietnam and probably been blown up or shot. Okay, 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.800 now we've talked that's my back story. We've talked before 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.000 about this legendary trip to England. Why don't you tell 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:44.960 my audience. So at some point, Um, I was doing 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:50.879 theater and and because of my friends, and I was 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.200 playing guitar but folk guitar, and I was playing in 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.879 the village and I'm doing the whole coffee thing. But anyway, 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:01.920 the Beatles sixty three I heard it and it just 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.440 changed everything I was like because music and rock music 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:09.959 in sixty three was awful. You had Fabian and Frankie 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:13.240 Avalon and what happened to where Chuck Berry go? Where 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.960 did all these good people going? It's like the fifties 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:21.760 were cool, then suddenly it was awful. So I talked, 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:26.600 I've started a rock band, and with my friend Eddie Lionetti, 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.399 and we played around and finally by at night and 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.399 we were emulating all English rock bands and and I 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.520 said to him, why don't we go to Liverpool because 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:43.720 that's where it's happening. This is summer of so um 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.760 we got we got jobs in this uh factory that 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:51.520 sand blasted used airplane parts. I was always like eight sandpaper. 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.760 It was terrible, but it was cool when we made 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.359 enough money. Hardly anything but the trip I had planned 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.320 for us was a tramp steamer and it was a 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:05.800 hundred and twelve dollars to Liverpool. You didn't know what 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:07.520 stops you were going to make on the way because 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:11.400 the tramp scheme, wherever they can get pulled in anyway, 0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:18.520 they we get on this ship in late November. Um, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.440 we crossed the North Atlantic. That the worst I mean, 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:23.240 people told me, are you out of your mind? What 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:27.680 did I know, across the North Atlantic, so what fort 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:30.760 your foot seas? You know you're covered in ice if 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.280 you walk outside. It's just it's terribly We went to 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:36.600 all these different countries. It took forever to get to Liverpool. 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:41.280 We finally uh after I think we docked in Aberdeen 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.280 and then we went down the Irish Sea and I 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:47.080 heard Pirate radio for the first time Radio Caroline, and 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.760 there was one other one Luxembourg. Now that was in Luxembourg, 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.160