1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: One quick note before we dive into today's episode. We 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: had some technical difficulties on the audio end. When I 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: say we, I do mean myself, and so you may 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: hear a few hiccups here and there as we go 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: through today's story. Thanks so much as always for listening 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: and hope you enjoy. From UFOs to psychic powers and 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: name is Noel. They call me Ben. We are joined 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: as always with our super producer Paul Mission Control decond. 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 14 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: We are recording towards the end of June. Earlier this month, 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: the Conjuring film series released their newest feature in the 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: Conjuring universe, called The Conjuring Three. The Devil Made Me 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: Do It. It's following the continuing, highly highly fictionalized, and 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: embellished adventures of the controversial paranormal investigators the late Ed 20 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: and Lorraine Warren. In this film, there's a young man 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: who spoiler alert for the film, there's a young man 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: who kills his landlord and later in court argues that 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: it is not his fault because he was possessed by 24 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: a supernatural entity. You're familiar with the Conjuring series. We're 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: talking about a little bit off air. Uh. The creators 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: currently want to make a franchise. They're already well under way, 27 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: and they're basing it on various cases that the Warren's 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: investigated during their heyday. It's got an mc you vibe there. 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: There are multiple How many films are out now? Uh? So, 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: I guess there's two Annabelle films. One is like a 31 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: prequel and then, and I'm not quite sure exactly where 32 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: they fall in the chronology, there's one called the None 33 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: that is part of the universe. And then this is 34 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: the third of the proper Conjuring pictures. So what is 35 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: that six? Ye, the Conjuring, Conjuring two and the Devil 36 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: Made Me do It. A bit of a clunky title 37 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: if you ask me, But you know, you gotta put 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: something there after the colon. After the colon, I will 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: say to me. The Conjuring movies are also a study 40 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: in like Victorian era fashion, because the Lorraine Warren character 41 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: that was sort of her thing, that was sort of 42 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: her style. She wears these very flourishy, ruffled necklines and 43 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of plunging Victorian bodice type outfits, and I found 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: it very distracting, but it sure enough is is how 45 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: this woman actually addressed and perhaps one of the few 46 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: accurate details from the real world that makes it into 47 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: these films. I'm saying that I'm not trying to dunk 48 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: on it too hard. I'm I'm a huge horror fan. Uh, 49 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: today we're diving into the incredibly disturbing and unfortunately true 50 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: story behind the latest film in this franchise, which is 51 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: this That kid that I mentioned that quick and dirty 52 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: plot summary is based on a real person that is 53 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: Arnie Cheyenne Johnson spelled a R in E. And Arnie 54 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: Cheyenne Johnson is alive today. But who was this real man? 55 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: What what led to these events, and perhaps most importantly, 56 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: why did he claim to be possessed? I would also 57 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: say be prepared for minor spoilers for the film throughout. 58 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: It's hard not to compare the two or even mention 59 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: them in the same breath. Without I just I don't 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: think Ben may have a great point about how ridiculously 61 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: embellished is and there maybe points where we mentioned how 62 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: some plot just diverged wildly from the true story. So 63 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: Arnie Cheyenne Johnson, his exact birth date has not been 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: widely publicized, but based on the timeline which we'll talk 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: about in depth, he was born in nineteen sixty two. 66 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: Around that time, he hailed from Brookfield, Connecticut. By all accounts, 67 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: Arnie is a pretty solid kid. And Brookfield, Connecticut is 68 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: where the story takes place. So he's like born and 69 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: raised there um And apparently this murder, um, whatever the 70 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: providence of it, was the first murder to take place 71 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: in Brookfield in like over a hundred years. So like 72 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: a very small and apparently quite you know, pious community 73 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: there in Connecticut. And like you said, Ben, he was 74 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: a good kid. He did a lot of the things 75 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: that the kids do there in Brookfield. And he got 76 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: a really cool job. He was working as a tree 77 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: surgeon for this this company called right w R I 78 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: g H T. Tree Service. Uh, pretty cool. I mean 79 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: he was a teenager and he had a job in 80 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: May of nineteen eighty he moved in with his girlfriend 81 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: and you might think, oh man work. Yeah. Um, but 82 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: because at that time he would have been eighteen years old, 83 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: so you know, you know, you may think, I don't know, 84 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: just depending on how conservative a town Brookfield is, and 85 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: we think it's pretty conservative at least from what I've read. Um, 86 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: that might be a little weird. You know, move in 87 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: with your significant other if you're not married. Well, there's 88 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: there are a couple of things play. Do they call 89 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: living in sin right? Yeah, he has some people in 90 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: a more conservative side of his factrum like call it that. Uh. 91 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: Ordinarily this would have been any other case of young 92 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: glove of bless your hearts. You know, you'll you'll learn 93 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: the hard way there are other fish in the sea, 94 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: but have have a romantic time together. But there may 95 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: have been another factor play, because the rumor is the 96 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: Debbie and her mother wanted Arnie to move into the 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: house with him because they were frightened by the behavior 98 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: of Debbie's little brother. But that rumors will see does 99 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: not quite fit the timeline. Here's what we know, probably 100 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: have it. So he moves in with Debbie, but Debbie 101 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: doesn't live by herself. Debbie is also around Arnie's age. 102 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: She lives with her mother, Judy Glassill, and her little brother, 103 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: David David Gladsol. He's eleven at the time. Debbie add 104 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: another brother, guy named Carl Glassill Jr. Who will get 105 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: to later in today's story. He plays He plays a 106 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: big part in this, but he does not appear in 107 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,239 Speaker 1: the film called The Conjuring and you will see why. 108 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: It will be very clear why it doesn't. So he's 109 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: moved in, live in with your girlfriend and your mom 110 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: and uh, your you know, your girlfriend's little brother. About 111 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: a month later, since June, and something strange begins happening 112 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 1: with David. The Colassoles and Arnie later recalled the trouble 113 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: begins when the family visits a rental property just least 114 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: they were planning to clean it up and preparing to 115 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: move in. David, as The Washington Post reports, uh saw 116 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: a water bed and he was freaked out about this 117 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: water bed. Everybody thought, Hey, you're an eleven year old boy, like, 118 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: it's a water bed, to go be cool with that, 119 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: all right? That's interesting, Yeah, I mean it was just 120 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: the early eighties. I mean water beds were still pretty popular. 121 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: Was practically still the seventies. I mean, when I saw 122 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: my first water bed, my mind was blown, so I 123 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: can imagine. But did you also see a spooky specter 124 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: sitting on there, beckoning you to come hither, not inside 125 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: the water bed? Now? Yeah, so the spect of coolness. Yeah, 126 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm still fascinated by water beds. They set off my 127 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: center station. But David is not on board with this 128 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: because he claims that an old man a specter appears 129 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: from nowhere, pushes him down on the bed, frightens him 130 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: and says beware. Judy glass All later goes on to 131 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: tell People magazine that her sons saw quote a man 132 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: with big black eyes, a thin face, with animal features 133 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: and jagged teeth, pointed ears, horns and hoofs. And at first, 134 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, Arnie's girlfriend are like, all right, you're making 135 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: this up. You don't want to clean. We get it, dude, 136 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: we don't like sweeping either. It's for the birds. Uh. 137 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: Sounds like the devil to me, guys. Animal features, pointy teeth, 138 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: big black eyes, horns, hoofs. Come on textbook devil or 139 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: a satyr. The modern Christian vision of the devil is 140 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: based on you. That's very true. I just want to 141 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: point out here we're talking about an eleven year old, 142 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: maybe twelve year old at this point, I think he's 143 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: still eleven, who's already he seems to have behavioral issues, 144 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: whatever that means to the family, right, some something that's 145 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: going on with him. They're weirded out about ale. But 146 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: even perhaps prior to moving. Then you then you have 147 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: something that occurs in that child's life, like a big move, 148 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, moving away from the room that you grew 149 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: up in, the house you grew up in, the friends 150 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: that live near you, whatever other things you want to 151 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: insert there. You can imagine that the family may see 152 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: this as acting out in some way because of anger 153 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: or sadness or you know, depression in a child in 154 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: a way. Um, but just here in this first moment, 155 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: when there's the introduction of another being, a man, a creature, 156 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: something sinister in the house, I'm just saying, you can 157 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: imagine the family's initial reaction. But then it gets weirder. 158 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I'll listen for you. Like eleven 159 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: is practically pre pubescent. I mean, he's also going through 160 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: a lot of emotional changes, and to have this happened 161 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: on the cusp of like a big life change like that. 162 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: I could see how they would think that, um, and 163 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: may that he was even making excuses to avoid like 164 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: doing chores or something like that. Right, right, Yeah, So 165 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: it is important to say, you know, when children are 166 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: processing things, uh, they often don't have the frame of 167 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: reference that human adults can have. So it's quite possible 168 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: that he just he sincerely believed this stuff. He wasn't 169 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't trying to be misleading, He just 170 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: did not understand how to approach uh, the emotions and 171 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: or trauma might be experiencing. But then things escalate and 172 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: David says, no, this old man is real. Uh, no 173 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: comments on the cleaning, but he vowed he would harm 174 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: us if we move into this house. And then he 175 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: also went on to say, this old man, this apparition, 176 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: could appear as a beast and could speak what he 177 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: believed to be Latin, and he was threatening to steal 178 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: the child's soul. Incredibly important to note that no one 179 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: throughout the hire experience ever claims to see the elderly 180 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: specter David Glass all. But the trouble continued, and just 181 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: like you know the textbook exorcism tropes, the child's behavior escalates, 182 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: things get increasingly strange for him. That's right, Um, he 183 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: continues to experience these night terrors. He continues his well 184 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: a strange behavior does continue to escalate, and then we 185 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: start to see some physical manifestations of all of this stuff, um, 186 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: in the form of strange bruises and scratches that appear 187 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: on his flesh. And this is certainly a trope that 188 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: we see associated with exorcisms and exorcism films or demon possession. 189 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: Rather like in the film The Exorcist, there's a part 190 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: where you see the young woman who's being possessed and 191 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: levitating and like these slashes and scratches start to form 192 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: on her body, like seemingly done by some unseen hand. Um. 193 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: So oh, this starts to really trigger thoughts you know 194 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: within again this this this very devout community or religious community. Um. 195 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: And a Catholic priest is contacted who is brought in 196 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: to bless the house. Unfortunately, that didn't seem to do 197 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: the trick, and David's bizarre behavior continues and it actually 198 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: continues to get worse. I promise I'm not gonna do 199 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: this much more to you guys, but just again, the 200 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: moment your child is like having unseen, unknown bruises and 201 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: scratches on their body. You can only imagine the reaction 202 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: of the parking for someone to blame. There is someone 203 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: to blame, that's the thing, because it is very There 204 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: are a few medical conditions that will create things spontaneously 205 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: that look like bruising, right, or there are conditions that 206 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: allow someone to bruise very easily, but those medical conditions 207 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: are pretty rare. So usually when you see something like that, 208 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: that means something is something has physically happened to the child. 209 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: I want to step back and say, father Dennis is 210 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: the name of one of these initial priests. Now that 211 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: will be importantly or in the story. But blessing the house, 212 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: which is not an exorcism, Blessing the house, uh doesn't 213 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: do anything, as you said, Noel, Uh. From all all 214 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: the notes we could find, David's behavior continues on this 215 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: on this spiral, his hallucination, sightings, visions, whatever you want 216 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: to call them. They begin occurring during the day. They 217 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: no longer just happened at night when he's in bed. 218 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: The family also claims they hear strange noises emanating from 219 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: the attic scratchings with no discernible cause, and David has 220 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: begun to growl. He's begun to speak in strange voices, 221 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: to recite passages from literature like the Christian Bible, or 222 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: I feel it is a little on the nose Paradise Lost, 223 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: which guess would mean that inferral powers are big fans 224 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: that work. They're big fans of stuff that's like that 225 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: features them as the leading players. I guess, right, yeah, 226 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: I guess, so, you know, I guess I'm trying. I 227 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: don't want to sound dismissive, but Paradise Lost feels it 228 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: adds fire to what the skeptics will say later, which 229 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: we do need to give space for. We do. And 230 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: I have a quick question for you. When I was 231 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: reading this and and um that came up, it occurred 232 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: to me would be a really cool twist if you know, 233 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: it was all him all along, and he kind of 234 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: looked up all of the things that made the most 235 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: sense or that would be you know, seen as red 236 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: flags by uh, you know, others, and in those in 237 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: like the religious community of being signs of demon possession. 238 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: And it turns out it was just all a scam 239 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: and he's actually doesn't have a learning disability at all, 240 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: that he's actually like a super hyper genius child, almost 241 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: along the lines of like the bad seed inconceivable. I mean, 242 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: that's the thing when one thing that bothers me about uh, 243 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: human entity in general, as they do tend to underestimate 244 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: the intelligence of children, children or some of the smartest 245 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: people you are going to meet in your natural life 246 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: prior to the invention of true machine consciousness, and they're 247 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: also natural manipulators. I mean again, no, no shade on children. 248 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: It's like almost no, I mean, it's almost like it's 249 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: a defense mechanism or it's a you know, survival skill 250 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: to kind of get what you want. That's sort of 251 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: how that's what makes the most sense as you grow up, 252 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: but you kind of hopefully learn to use those powers 253 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: for good, perhaps as powers of persuasion rather than you know, 254 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: cold hearted manipulation. But um, yeah, it's an interesting it's 255 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: interesting thing to consider, m and it's good that we're 256 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: considering at this point. So within whatever is happening to David, 257 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: if he is acting, he is very much committed to 258 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: the bit he's going full method, or he's possessed or 259 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: something else is a play because this behavior continues for 260 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: days and days and days for about twelve days, us 261 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: and all members of the glass Will family eventually have 262 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: to take turns staying up at night with David because 263 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: he will spasm and convulse from sundown to sun up. 264 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: And at this point it is incredibly fair. I would 265 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: ask why the glass Als did not take David to 266 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: a psychologist. We do not have the answer for that. 267 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: I have a few guesses that are entirely my own 268 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: speculation based on the research I was doing. Uh. There 269 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: is the possibility of not being able to afford it. 270 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: There's also the stigma UH stronger in the nineteen eighties 271 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: but continuing today, surrounding the possibility of mental illness. And 272 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: then there's also the question of spiritual values. As we said, 273 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: these were people who were at least religious enough to 274 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: eventually contact the Catholic Church. About twelve days after this 275 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: first incident, in the unsuccessful blessing in the house, this 276 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: father Dennis reaches out to Ed and a Warren and 277 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: asked them for guidance because he feels something messed up 278 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: is a foot. And that's when the Warrens meet with 279 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: the family and Debbie, your mother Judy told the warrens, Look, 280 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: we have watched, we have physically watched David being beaten 281 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: and strangled by some invisible force, and afterwards we've seen 282 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: red marks along his neck. So they're saying they were 283 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: there when it happens. So you can imagine that the family, 284 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: like you said, called a priest first, then they called 285 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: demonologists because really it's their worldview. They want to take 286 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: the advice of you know, this psychic who is you know, 287 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: um Mrs Warren as well as you know essentially a 288 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: demonologist and and paranormal investigator in ed and they just listen, right, 289 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,239 Speaker 1: Any advice is a good advice. Any information more than 290 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: they have is a good information. And Lorraine, uh, she 291 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: pretty pretty quickly, I don't know, gives them, gives fuel 292 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: to the fire in a way, or believes she sees something, 293 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: So it really depends on how you choose to look 294 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 1: at it. She says that she she can see a 295 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: black mist appear next to David, this child, and she 296 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: interprets it as proof that he is somehow being affected 297 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: by a spirit or a a demonum a malevolent uh, 298 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: a malevolent entity of some kind. And in the in 299 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: the film, um, let's call it a movie, let's call 300 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: it what it is. Uh. This this takes place when 301 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: Lorraine brushes the elbow of the possessed David, who is 302 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: you know, convulsing, foaming at the mouth. He actually goes 303 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: after his mother with a kitchen knife at one point 304 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: or stabs his father and the knee I think, actually, um, 305 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: And she gets a view instantly of some sort of 306 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: satanic ritual with like a instagram and like black candles 307 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: and like some sort of black mass. Uh. That's probably 308 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: a spoiler, is the as I'm going to get about 309 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: the film, because I believe that is an element of 310 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: this story that does not exist at all, like some 311 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: sort of you know, witchcraft, like malevolently targeting this family. Yeah, 312 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: there is no quote unquote order of the ram uh 313 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: this interpretation. Another detail that the film has uh embellished 314 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: is that the the allegation of the knife on David's 315 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: part was him running at his grandmother with a knife. 316 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: So the warrants say, there's a problem, you know what 317 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: I mean, They're they're here, in their opinion or as 318 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: they present themselves, to help this unfortunate family, and they 319 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: decided to perform what they call a series of lesser 320 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: or minor exorcisms. These are This is not the trope 321 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: that you encounter in novels The Exporcists or film adaptations 322 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: of novels like The Exorcists. This is this series of prayers. 323 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: Most importantly, these prayers do not need the explicit authorization 324 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church to occur a proper you know, 325 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: full on all the bells and whistles Catholic or exorcism 326 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: must be approved explicitly by the Catholic Church. So instead 327 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: they have these priests. Um, the warrants claim, the interactive 328 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: of the series of six priests and all who are 329 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: trying trying to address this problem, and Arnie, our our 330 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: tragic protagonists here is present for each of these minor exorcisms, 331 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: and according to the warrants, during each one he started 332 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: taunting the demon that they believed it was happening the child. 333 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: Also side note, ultimately they would come to believe because 334 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: Judy was a true believer herself, she had heard the 335 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: warrens beforehand. Uh, they ultimately came to believe the child 336 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: was inhabited by multiple spirits on the order of like 337 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: forty two or forty three non human entities that's shooting 338 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: a mom. By the way, yes, Judy Gretzel the mom 339 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: and Debbie is the daughter. So the the interesting thing 340 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 1: here is that Arnie was telling the demon is another 341 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: troupe from horror films, telling the demon or demons spirits. Uh, 342 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: leave David, come inhabit my body instead, and Ed Warren 343 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: would later say, you know, we told him not to 344 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: do that. You should never ever do something like that, 345 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: if you're familiar with this at all. Unfortunately, ghost Adventures 346 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: was not a thing yet, so he wasn't able to 347 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: see that example of taunting ghosts. Right, come at me, bro, 348 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: come at me, bro, do something boy anyway, ghost hunters. So, 349 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: according to Lorraine, David exhibited all the behaviors typical of 350 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: demonic possession during these rights he levitated. They said he 351 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 1: spoke of the crime Arnie would go on to commit, 352 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: although importantly he did not implicate Arnie in the crime. 353 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: At this time. It got spooky enough for the warrants 354 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: that they contacted the Brookfield Police. Is the first time 355 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: they contact the police and they say the situation may 356 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: be becoming dangerous. But I had I hadn't noticed that 357 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: detail about him, sort of predicting the crime. Do you 358 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: know what terms exactly he spoke of it? And sure 359 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: that comes to us from Lorraine Warren. She would later 360 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: state in interviews, quote, David made numerous references to murders 361 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: and stabbing. We were sitting on a powder keg. So 362 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: in her mind that turns out to be prescient or 363 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: um precognitive because to her and to you know, many 364 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: true believers, that would mean that there is an infernal 365 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: power speaking riddles about this other plant has or it's 366 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: just a very stabby, it's a super stabby. Clearly that 367 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: the demon, you know, and David is stabby because he 368 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: definitely grabs the knife whoever he's a targeting. That is 369 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: something that was reported and I believe there's audio recordings 370 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: of that. So there we have this situation. Luckily, at 371 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: this point the police do not have to intervene. After 372 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: this series of three or four minor exorcisms as they're called, 373 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: David appears to be on the mend. But one hugely 374 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: important note before we move on here. As I said earlier, 375 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: no priest performed a formal exorcism on David at any 376 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: time the that's because the Bishop of Bridgeport refused to 377 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: authorize the right of exorcism. Father Nicolas Greco, who was 378 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: the director of communications for the diocese at the time, 379 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: said they couldn't do it because the family would not 380 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: get this this I can't over emphasize how important this is. 381 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: Underline it highlighted in your mind. The family would not 382 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: consent to the psychological tests the church then and today 383 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: considers a prerequisite for any authorized exorcism. And we have 384 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: a quote from Great grow about this that makes a 385 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: lot of sense to me. It says, in cases of 386 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 1: this nature, you don't presume anything. Through prayers and through observation, 387 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: you make a decision. Lots of things we can't explain 388 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: through psychology, and yet we can't explain everything rationally. What 389 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: we're looking for is a balance. These things do exist, 390 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: these things do happen, but not that often exactly exactly. 391 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: And this is a careful line that the modern Catholic 392 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: Church has threatened for some time, especially as if you've 393 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: listened to our Exorcisms one or one episode, you'll know 394 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: this already, especially as request for exorcisms and reports of 395 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: possession have skyrocketed in the US and abroad. There's been 396 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: a steady rise and it continue, it continues today. So 397 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: if you're the Catholic Church, the last thing you want 398 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: to do is seem like you are not credible, seems 399 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: like you have not done your due diligence if you like. 400 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: What if someone is suffering from a mental condition, right, 401 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: they could be treated with drugs or therapy, and then 402 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: they have injured themselves in the course of this right 403 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: of exorcism. You have to be very careful with that, 404 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: and they do take it seriously in their defense. So 405 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: you've got to be selective, right, because you don't want 406 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: to be seen as just you know, jumping in head 407 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: first thinking everything is a demon possession, because then kind 408 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: of makes it less special, for lack of a better word, 409 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: or makes it seem less credible if you are just 410 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: going in and exercising anyone that that has you know, 411 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: an eye twitch. Right. Yeah, and this just for a 412 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: side note, I've learned way too much about exorcism recently 413 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: for a thing. But it's less sketchy than it sounds 414 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: were it that way. But that's all we can say 415 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: right now. But one thing I learned was that there 416 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: is a little bit more of a casual approach to 417 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: some of this. There was this one. There's this one 418 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: guy back in the early two thousands during the exorcism Spike, 419 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: who was teaching courses, a course of lectures at the 420 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: Vatican for like hundreds of priests who had traveled to 421 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: Rome to try to to try to like have enough 422 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: qualified clergy folk to answer these calls for exorcisms. And this, uh, 423 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: this religious official from Albania, his name escapes me. Now 424 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: he straight up told people that he conducted exorcisms over 425 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: cell phone. He was in his eighties at the time, 426 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: and he said, you know, if you're doing the right stuff, 427 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: you can just do it over the phone. You can 428 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: send those rights right through for those communications that it 429 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: works with WiFi. You guys, Well, it's a little bit 430 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: like remember the televangelists move put your hand up on 431 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: the TV. Screw pray with me. Exorcism via bluetooth could 432 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: be the next thing that'd be cool. Yeah, well, hey, guys, guys, 433 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: should should we take a quick ad break? Yes, and 434 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: when we return, we'll find ourselves at the scene of 435 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: the murder. We're back, so crisis averted. We're still just 436 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: in the here in the facts phase. Debbie gets a job. 437 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: She's grooming dogs at a kennel called the Brookfield Pet Motel. 438 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: The owner is a really interesting guy. It's about four 439 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: years old. His name is Alan Bono or Bono if 440 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: we want to do YouTube jokes, and he has recently 441 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: arrived in the area. He's been there for about six months. 442 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: He's traveled widely. He spent almost twenty years writing a 443 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: plantation Australia. The guy's got stories and he's one of 444 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: those people who loves to talk about himself and tell stories. 445 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: He all about himself. He also loves to drink, so 446 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: he seems like an nice enough guy. He rented He 447 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: had an apartment next door and he rented that to 448 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: Debbie and Arnie when he hired hired Debbie, so he 449 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: effectively a very short span of time becomes both Debbie's 450 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: boss and the young couple's landlord. And he seems to 451 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: like the kids. The teenagers who are around. You know 452 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: they're getting to be nineteen at this time. But Debbie 453 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: has concerns about her bow because in the days following 454 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: this series of minor exorcisms and David's struggle, she says 455 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: that Arnie or she called him Cheyenne, would go into 456 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: a trance and he would growl. He would say he 457 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: saw the beast, and then later he would have no 458 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: memory of it. She would add, it was just like 459 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: David Man. Yeah, and you know, we remember from earlier 460 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: in the episode he did do a bit of a 461 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: come at me bro to the demon, and I think 462 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: he said something like get like, come come into me, 463 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: leave my little buddy alone. I think it's what he 464 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: says of her brother. Um, because they were close and 465 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: in the movie you basically you might as well see 466 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: that black cloud come out of David's mouth and into 467 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: Arnie's um, but here it's a little more it's a 468 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: little more subtle. Um. But by this point it does 469 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: appear that he is behaving at least a little bit strangely. So, yes, 470 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: there's definitely weird stuff going on in that kennel slash 471 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: apartment set up. Um. And at one point, this guy 472 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: Alan takes Debbie and Arnie and Arnie's two little sisters 473 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: and one of his cousins. So a whole bunch of 474 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: people out for lunch at this place called the Mugg 475 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: and Munch. No, and that's Apostrophe and Apostrophe and Mugg 476 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: and Munch. So while they're the mugg and munch. Alan 477 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: is paying and he's also by buying drinks. He offers 478 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: Arnie and Debbie drinks and they're like, we'll have a 479 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: little wine, will be polite, you know, we're hanging out 480 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: with their landlord, my boss. But then this guy is 481 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: going pretty hard on the vino. And they get back 482 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: to the house as as we can so far as 483 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: we can tell, Alan continues drinking, uh, And eventually, you know, 484 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: they have like a kind of uneventful afternoon. Arnie fixes 485 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: his landlord's radio and the guy starts playing music really 486 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: loud and just partying. Uh. The fast forward through the afternoon, 487 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: Debbie takes the two little sisters and the little cousin, 488 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: a nine year old called named Mary. Uh. She takes 489 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: the girls out for pizza, but as they're getting pizza, 490 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: she gets a bad vibe. That's my words there, but 491 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: that's what she describes. She has an ill feeling. Something's 492 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: on the wind, and you know, maybe it was their 493 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: landlord becoming, you know, increasingly inebriated as that day went on. 494 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: Maybe it was that Arnie had been so weird recently, 495 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: but there was something in the air, and so she 496 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: returns and she finds the landlord. Uh, incredibly drunk and 497 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: incredibly irritable. I didn't put these details in the research, 498 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: but he's he's like he's moved upstairs and he's like 499 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: walking around just like smacking his fists in his palms, 500 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: just like getting hyped up for something. The music is 501 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: so loud, people like, if you're this is one of 502 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: those things where like, if you're a kid and you've 503 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: ever seen an adult who looks like they're on the 504 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: edge of losing control, it is a tremendously frightening thing. 505 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: And so it makes sense that Debbie and Arnie want 506 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: to get those kids out of there. Yeah, and then 507 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: the in the movie, I don't think the kids are 508 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: involved at all. It's just Debbie and Arnie and uh 509 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: the landlord who is just slamming like PBRs. And it's 510 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: actually it's pretty comical in the movie because he's like 511 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: spraying them everywhere. He's like shaking them up and like 512 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: squirting beer all over the place. It's like total waste 513 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: of alcohol. Uh. I remember my kid who I watched 514 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: it with thought that was really funny. Um, and it's 515 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: it's done pretty well. The guy does seem unhinged in 516 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: the music. It's like some classic rock song. It's like 517 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: fog Hat or something that they're playing in the movie. 518 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: But in the film he grabs Debbie and starts, like forcibly, 519 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: dancing with her. And that's when Arnie has kind of 520 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: a vision that that that it's uh, it's um bono, 521 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: who is the demon coming at him? Yeah, and again 522 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: that's I would call that some hollywood ization, which is 523 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: a very awkward word. I'll make it a better one later, 524 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: but you know what I mean. They're the style in 525 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: on it for spectacle in the in the classic sense. 526 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: You're right, though they were. They were hanging out. Uh, 527 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: the kids are getting scared, and when Debbie and Arnie 528 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: are trying to leave, Bonno grabs the cousin, the nine 529 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: year old Mary, and he refuses to let her go, 530 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: and Debbie is like by the car. Arnie's confronting this guy. 531 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: The tension in the air is palpable. Arnie's sister, Wanda, 532 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: one of the kids there, would later recall, all of 533 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: a sudden, it just broke. I can't explain it. It 534 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: just broke, that's all, she remembers. Hearing her brother again 535 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: growl like an animal. She sees something shining flashed through 536 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: the air. This will later turn out to be uh 537 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: the five inch folding knife that Arnie carries with him. Commonly, 538 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: Arnie stabs Barno repeatedly and then wanders away. From this scene. 539 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: Bonto is gravely injured. He dies a little bit later. 540 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: He's been stabbed over twenty times. The court case will 541 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: find and Arnie isn't really trying to run away. It's 542 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: like he just kind of wanders off and he is 543 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: apprehended by law enforcement about two miles or three point 544 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: two clicks away from the side of the attack. And folks, 545 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists, remember this is just our recount of 546 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: the facts. In a way, Bono's death is the beginning 547 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: of this story, because you see Arnie went to trial. 548 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. It does go to trial. 549 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: While the title of the Conjuring film might feel like 550 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: purposely schlocky, the truth is this. They lifted that phrase 551 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: the Devil made Me do It from the media at 552 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: the time. The media eventually was calling this the Devil 553 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: made Me Do It case. Is just one of the 554 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: many details the filmmakers took from the true story to 555 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: the big screen. Yeah, I mean it's also a common phrase, right, 556 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: sort of like throughout kind of pop culture that would 557 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 1: have been available at the times, the idea of oh, 558 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: I've been a bad bad boy. The devil made me 559 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: do it, you know, like the idea of any sort 560 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: of bad behavior being related to the devil. But the 561 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: press took this and ran with it because this was 562 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: the first time in any court case ever in the 563 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: history of the United States that at this type of 564 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 1: defense was ever used. So on February seventeenth, the day 565 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: after the murder, Lorraine Warren contacted Brookfield Police Department again 566 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: and claimed that Arnie Johnson was possessed when he committed 567 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: the crime. That's what set off the initial media frenzy. 568 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: And whatever their actual motivations might have been, Lorraine uh 569 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: and her husband, this was all caused by them, you know. 570 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: The media interest was caused by them because they were known. 571 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: They were probably the most high profile paranormal investigators, I 572 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: guess you could call it of the time, and they 573 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: you know, the the Amityville case and the case that 574 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: surrounded the original Conjuring film. Um, these were all highly publicized. 575 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: So not only did regional press cover. A national press 576 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: started to jump in as well, and it became a 577 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: media feeding frenzy. Uh. And let's not forget that this 578 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: this was this was around the time all of the 579 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: Satanic panic stuff where parents were looking for the devil 580 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: in backwards masking and rock records in you know, television 581 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: and movies. Let alone a case where this could be 582 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: the uh, the confirmation of their worst fears at the 583 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: devil is in fact causing young people to commit heinous 584 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 1: acts of murder. I can imagine this case still going 585 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: this route even without the Warrens, just because of the 586 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: famili's apparent belief that there's something going on here, as 587 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: well as the fact, at least according to all of 588 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: the other witnesses who were there, Arnie was attempting to 589 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: in some way protect another family or you know, another 590 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: family member, Like I can imagine it them wanting to 591 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: protect Arnie no matter what actually happened, like saying things 592 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: that would that would try to protect him. I do 593 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: think you're right that the Warrens, because of like they 594 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: elevated it in to the national sphere or to the 595 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: national level. What weirds me out is wondering how much 596 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: the Warren's controlled some of the thinking of the family 597 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: when it came to a legal defense. Oh, we'll get 598 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: to it, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. So the reason I 599 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: put the I really wanted to hit the Satanic panic 600 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: of my research there is that this, this is the 601 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: cultural soil from which this story emerges, and it is 602 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: inseparable from that zeitgeist. But the funniest thing, yes, it's 603 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: true that there were parents, religious figures, and politicians of 604 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: plenty for one reason or another, not always sincere trying 605 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: to fan the flames of this moral panic. This would 606 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: be a mass outbreak, a mass outbreak of hysteria. But 607 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: I do want to give a shout out to one 608 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: of my favorite victims of the Satanic Panic, Dungeons and Dragons. 609 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: We've got a lot of D and D players in 610 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: the audience today and if you, uh, if you enjoy 611 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: a good game of Dungeons and Dragons, that you know 612 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: that is the nerdiest possible route a demon or infernal 613 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: powers could take. Like, if you ask someone who actually 614 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,439 Speaker 1: plays D and D what are they gonna do, They're 615 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: gonna tell you, Oh, you can roll that twenties all time. 616 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: Every other Tuesday when you meet together with your friends. Uh, 617 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: take that, angels, I just don't think it works. But 618 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: but for further context in this, just to give you 619 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: a sense of how real this moral panic was and 620 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: why the warrants were able to capitalize it on it, 621 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 1: and why people across the nation reacted so strongly, consider 622 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: a New York Times article and contemporaneous source. There they 623 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: noted a gallop pole that occurred about fifteen months before 624 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: this case hit the news, and that gallop pole showed 625 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: that thirty four percent of adults in the US believe quote, 626 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: the devil is a personal being who directs evil forces 627 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: and influences people to do wrong. So I would argue, 628 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: in a very literal way, more than one third of 629 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: the American public would have if they had been in 630 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: a jury, they would have agreed a demon could possess somebody. 631 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: That's that sounds like a crazy fact to have, you 632 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: know in the mix in one right, and a lot 633 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: of people listening to the show today, we're alive in 634 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: the If you were in the US at that time, 635 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: third of the people you kicked it with totally thought 636 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: a demon could possess you. And that was that was 637 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: literally the next month. I think the murder takes place February, 638 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: and then this is March when that New York Times 639 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 1: article comes out. So yeah, I couldn't agree more. Ben. 640 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: You know, we know that again, belief like this has 641 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: hasn't really gone down too much. Even you can say 642 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: that many societies are becoming increasingly secular, but the people 643 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: personal beliefs, I don't know. It seems like there are 644 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: people who believe in evil without necessarily believing in a 645 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: divine good, you know, which is always an interesting I 646 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: know what the word is, sort of contradiction almost. I 647 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: mean it's like you usually typically those exist as a dichotomy, 648 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: like as like you can't have one without the other. Yeah, 649 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: what I was going to say was either dichotomy, paradox 650 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: um some there. Yeah, they're usually a combo meal, you 651 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's evil without good. Is is 652 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: like the burger without the fries, and the fries without 653 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 1: the burger. I'm not opposed to item. Yeah, I'm done 654 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: with some palm frets. Yes, I agreed. This is where 655 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 1: our legal beagle enters the case. Martin Manela Arnie Scheyenne 656 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: Johnson's lawyer. Uh, this is the safety assume this is 657 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: the biggest case and Noll has ever run across, because 658 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: what's really going on trial here in a way is 659 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: the concept of demons and monic influence. That is what 660 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: is going on trial. Potentially, this guy is getting calls 661 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: from across the planet and like, not just journalists, other 662 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: lawyers are calling in, religious figures are calling, and they 663 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: all want to know about what's being called the devil 664 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: made me do a case or, in a burst of 665 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: class from the media, the demon murder trial. That's pretty 666 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: sexy sounding, though I'm not gonna lie. And and we 667 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: had said earlier on the episode that this would have 668 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:34,479 Speaker 1: been the first time a defense of satanic possession would 669 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: have ever been used, but that was in the States. Uh. 670 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: And in terms of something that had gone to trial, 671 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: he actually went to England to meet with several lawyers 672 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: who had been part of two cases that did attempt 673 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: to use a similar defense. Uh. And there's this whole 674 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: thing where he was going to force the priests who 675 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,959 Speaker 1: had originally treated I don't know. I would have said 676 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: that who worked with David and the family on David's 677 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: condition prior to get transferring in some way to Arnie. 678 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: But He was basically like, you're gonna you're gonna come here, 679 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: You're going to testify about what you did, or I'm 680 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: gonna make you do it with a subpoena. You right, 681 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: let's see, do you have a right to get out 682 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: of a subpoena? Father? That's kind of the vibe I'm 683 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 1: getting from that, and hopefully it was much nicer that. 684 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: That's a real question though. I mean, I know that like, 685 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: priests can't be compelled to testify based on something that 686 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: they've been told in confidence, in a you know, confession situation, right. 687 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: The only thing that can compel them is the power 688 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: of exactly smile there. But would this have been a 689 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,479 Speaker 1: thing could they? I mean, because I know that there's 690 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: there's you know, the Vatican, for example, is very tight 691 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: lipped about these kinds of things, these exorcisms. They try 692 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: to keep these details in these facts under wraps. I 693 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: would imagine that there would be difficult to force a 694 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: priest who participated an exorcism to to testify. If it's 695 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: not under confession, then you do have the do have 696 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: the ability to subpoena and people, I believe we are 697 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: not legal expertise show nor we a film review show. 698 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: But the the whole thing that he's doing here, Manella 699 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: is Manella is trying to set precedent. He's trying to 700 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: build precedents. So when when what he wants to do 701 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: when he goes to England is he wants to be 702 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: able to come back and say, in nine seventy four, 703 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,800 Speaker 1: this demonic possession defense have been argued in the case 704 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: of Michael Taylor in the Auset murder trial. Right, he 705 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,280 Speaker 1: wants to have that President, wants to have these priests 706 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: come and say, like, you know, we are true believers. 707 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: We truly believe this kid was possessed. This is not 708 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: just some lawyer being overly clever. That's what he's trying 709 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: to do, you know. And it would not be fair 710 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,280 Speaker 1: for us to try to guess at Manella's personal beliefs 711 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: in this regard. It is quite possible that this uh, 712 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,280 Speaker 1: this lawyer themselves really believed that this was the correct 713 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,280 Speaker 1: thing to do. So the national eye is upon this trial. 714 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:13,360 Speaker 1: It begins October at Connecticut Superior Court in Danbury, Connecticut. 715 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: Manela does it. He does the move, He does the thing. 716 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: The news is going nuts. He attempts to submit a 717 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: not guilty plea even though like they know where the 718 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,359 Speaker 1: knife is habeas corpus, they have the body of the victim. 719 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: He says, this kid is not guilty by virtue of 720 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: demonic possession, and therefore Arnie Cheyenne Johnson could not have 721 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: been the person committing the murder, and therefore he cannot 722 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: legally be held responsible. Mike Drop, I mean seriously, even 723 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: the insanity confession is a wild one, you know, And 724 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: it's difficult to to make an argument for a lot 725 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: of the times are temporary insanity, right, Um, that tends 726 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 1: to be like a big like legal flex but this one, 727 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: holy cow. Well yeah, And and in that case and 728 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: arguing insanity, you prove that at the time that that 729 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: of whatever crime occurred, this person was legally insane, right 730 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: And then it's also like proving can this person stand trial? 731 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 1: And it just that there's a lot you can go 732 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: into that. In this case, it would be was this 733 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: person possessed? If this person was possessed, are they still 734 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: possessed right now? Is it still then? Because yeah, because again, 735 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: while while he's being held, there's no formal exorcism performed 736 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: on Johnson either. And I want to make a cool point. 737 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: Anybody who has a little bit of free time and 738 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: an interest in learning about the insanity plea, at least 739 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: in the US, you can check out I did a 740 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: brain stuff video on this while back. One of the 741 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: reasons it's so difficult to prove the insanity plea, especially 742 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: the one you definitely want, like if you are plean 743 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: and bad faith, the one you really want is temporary 744 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: insanity your honor at a crazy morning. I either wasn't 745 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,399 Speaker 1: me or I was. The real thing is I think 746 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,439 Speaker 1: the real definition is legally incapable of distinguishing right from raw. 747 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,800 Speaker 1: So that's what it means when you find some one insane. 748 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: It's a very very difficult pleace. What just to finish 749 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: my thought here, what this guy is doing is the 750 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: definition of like legal parkour. He's beyond doubling down. Oh well, 751 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: it's also like yeah, and and you're right. The the 752 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: the psychological burden of proof that it would be required 753 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: to prove unequivocally that someone didn't know that between right 754 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: and wrong. That's difficult in enough in and of itself. 755 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: This would like require like the some sort of proof 756 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,399 Speaker 1: of the existence of God and the devil, and like 757 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: pure evil and and and like biblical truths you know 758 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 1: that we've never been able to prove. I just it 759 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: just seems like a losing battle to me, like like 760 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: why would you do this other than for the publicity 761 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 1: or to a big name for yourself as a lawyer. 762 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: It's it's it seems like impossible, impossible to prove this. 763 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: It would be a pretty cool thing to get started, right, 764 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: like Clarence Darrow level, Yes, say I would. You can 765 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: see it even if even if you're not as the attorney, 766 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: they're like going for fame and and all this stuff, 767 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: like you could actually get something interesting happening. So I 768 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: don't know, I just imagine it. And also you know, 769 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: it's your job to try to get your clients the 770 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: best possible outcome. Right, So this doesn't make this guy 771 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,759 Speaker 1: necessarily a bad person at all. It makes them a professional, 772 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: just a professional who takes some risk, right, and they've 773 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: got a lot of people on their side that they 774 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 1: could bring to bear. But yeah, you're right, it's putting 775 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: the concept of God, and it's putting the concept of 776 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,879 Speaker 1: demons and therefore the concept of Christian theology on the 777 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,760 Speaker 1: stand and saying does this hold the same legal water 778 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: as secular evidence. Uh. You know, maybe maybe the idea 779 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: was we could we could push this to a mistrial. 780 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,839 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll get some folks on the jury who say, 781 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, as a person of faith, I believe in 782 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: this and it would be a violation of my beliefs 783 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: to say this kid is guilty. Uh, and you illegally 784 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,280 Speaker 1: it's not a kid because he's nineteen now. But there's 785 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 1: there's one There's one big hindrance, isn't there because there 786 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: is a person between the defense and the jury. It's 787 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: their whole job to be between the defense and the jury. Yeah, 788 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,360 Speaker 1: that's right. It's the judge Robert Callahan in this case. 789 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,839 Speaker 1: And I was wondering if one of you guys wanted 790 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:46,320 Speaker 1: to like play Judge Callaghan in the response here. Sure, 791 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,400 Speaker 1: I imagine you would like it played incredulously, perhaps so 792 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: something in the neighborhood of no court of law could 793 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: contemplate this defense, as there would be a severe lack 794 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 1: of evidence. To prove demonic session exists, you'd need to 795 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: prove demons exist. To prove demons exist, you'd need to 796 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:09,400 Speaker 1: prove some pretty heavy things about intangible entities, spirituality and 797 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 1: so on. That's a lot different from tracing fingerprints on 798 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 1: a murder weapon or corroborating an alibi. Yeah, and and 799 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: just just for fairness for anybody rights in Robert Robert 800 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: Callahan did not write that. I I wrote that part. 801 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: But that's like, but that's that's exactly the you know 802 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,920 Speaker 1: that that is an accurate representation of the legal, not 803 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: even the legal, the thought experiments, the cognitive hoops one 804 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: would have to jump through to even consider this case. 805 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: So he's basically a much more classy way he said 806 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: get outta here. Then I imagine he wouldn't have even 807 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 1: given it as much credence as you did, or even 808 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: bothered going through the motions. To him, it was just 809 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 1: an outright what really, Yeah, maybe so Manella doesn't give up, 810 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,839 Speaker 1: so he pivots and he says, okay, alright, demons don't work. 811 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: Feel like this guy was really good at improv. It's like, 812 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:07,240 Speaker 1: all right, if demons don't work, well, maybe on self defense. 813 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 1: You know, maybe there were kids there, right, we know 814 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,720 Speaker 1: this guy sticks up for kids because he got himself 815 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: possessed to save another kid. And then the prosecutions like objection, 816 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: and then the judges like sustained. Uh, you're on thin 817 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: ice manella or thin ice counselor he ran into me 818 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: twenty two times? What can I say? Right? Because Callahan 819 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,479 Speaker 1: rejected this out of hand, the jury was not even 820 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: allowed to consider the concept of demonic possession as a 821 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: viable explanation for Alan Bono's death. And because the judge 822 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 1: would not even entertain the spiritually based defense, media attention 823 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: quickly fizzled away shifted to other things, so you know, 824 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,000 Speaker 1: there were fewer journalists watching this after everybody heard the case. 825 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: The jury took about fifteen hours over about three days. Uh. 826 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,840 Speaker 1: And then they returned and they found Johnston guilty, but 827 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 1: not of first degree murder, not of cold blooded premeditated manslaughter, right, 828 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: manslaughter in the first degree, which is kind of like 829 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,280 Speaker 1: I meant, you know, I meant to really rock that person, 830 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 1: but I did not mean to kill them. And let's 831 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 1: just remember too that this dude had never committed a crime, like, 832 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 1: he had nothing on his record at all. Uh, and 833 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: by all accounts was like a good dude. So I'm 834 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: sure that entered into the judges sentencing as well, since 835 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: he had no previous record. Um, ben, did you see 836 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,280 Speaker 1: the detail about how when they examined the body of Bono, 837 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,840 Speaker 1: the man that was killed. There was it was very strange, 838 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: like there weren't any like tears in the fabric of 839 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,280 Speaker 1: his clothing. I saw something about that, but I couldn't 840 00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,760 Speaker 1: find enough sources to corroborate it. What did you see? Yeah, 841 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:06,239 Speaker 1: Johnson's lawyers were allowed to examine Bono's clothing, and I 842 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: don't understand this, but I did see in a couple 843 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,759 Speaker 1: different places, and this here was from all That's Interesting 844 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,480 Speaker 1: dot com, and then I also saw it in a 845 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 1: couple of other sources. Um. They said there was a 846 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 1: lack of any blood, rips or tears, and they argued 847 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,839 Speaker 1: that should help support the claim of demonic involvement. Um. 848 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 1: But the court was absolutely not convinced of that. But 849 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,359 Speaker 1: I do find that super strange, as the injuries were 850 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 1: caused spiritually, like something like that, I guess that would 851 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: be what they would imply. But I also don't understand 852 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,400 Speaker 1: how you can stab somebody twenty times and there not 853 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,120 Speaker 1: be any tears or blood. Um. If that's true, that 854 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,440 Speaker 1: is truly unusual. Wouldn't you say one of the primary 855 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: witnesses saw a shiny thing, right, And if they're exumed 856 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,239 Speaker 1: if someone's exhumed, and that means that they've likedly. I 857 00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:57,840 Speaker 1: don't think it was exhumed. I think it was, like 858 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,280 Speaker 1: I misspoke. They just were allowed to examine the body. Okay, 859 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 1: so the body hasn't gone through uh embalmment or anything 860 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,919 Speaker 1: like that. To my understanding, Yes, all right, that's good. 861 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: It feels like a reach, but that's that's a really 862 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 1: interesting take. I'm wondering if they're just kind of attempting 863 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,840 Speaker 1: to grab as much evidence as they can to support 864 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,800 Speaker 1: their case, which again, is what what you should do 865 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:29,320 Speaker 1: in that situation. Unfortunately, Yeah, despite these arguments, and despite 866 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: the white a wide amount of public support here, Um 867 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: Johnson is convicted of first degree manslaughter November twenty four. 868 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,480 Speaker 1: He is sentenced to ten to twenty years in prison. 869 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,000 Speaker 1: He only serves five. He's let off for good behavior 870 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,200 Speaker 1: in January of ninety six. He successfully doesn't have any 871 00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,799 Speaker 1: red flags on psychological evaluations. Authorities even note he's an 872 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,759 Speaker 1: exemplary inmate. During this time, he gets his g e D. 873 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,800 Speaker 1: In prison, he earns some other vocational certificates, He takes 874 00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,800 Speaker 1: college classes. He gets married. Guess who we marries Debbie 875 00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,720 Speaker 1: Glass all, they get married while he's locked up. There's 876 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,800 Speaker 1: they were still married. Isn't that crazy? It's so crazy. 877 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,879 Speaker 1: It seemed like a good boy, like a really good 878 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: young man. Um, she watched him manslaughter somebody, but she 879 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: believed that he was. I mean she believed and and 880 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,920 Speaker 1: and just just to wrap up the film part of this. 881 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 1: In the film, there's this massive set piece exorcism that 882 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: takes place in the infirmary at the at the prison. 883 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,000 Speaker 1: Uh Like it like blows out all the windows, you know, 884 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 1: like dudes levitating. His bones are breaking in that way 885 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 1: that they do um during you know, modern kind of 886 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,520 Speaker 1: demon possession movies. I guess it's all goes back to 887 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,080 Speaker 1: the Exorcist. Um. But you know that clearly never happened. 888 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,399 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any evidence been of an 889 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: exorcism being conducted on Arnie while in prison, right, that 890 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,320 Speaker 1: was clearly entirely made up, not to mention the absolute 891 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,359 Speaker 1: grandiose nature of it as depicted in the movie, and 892 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,480 Speaker 1: the whole satanic cult, you know, gunning for his family thing. Yeah, no, 893 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,360 Speaker 1: order of the ram. He was a model prisoner. He 894 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,319 Speaker 1: kept his nose clean. When he was released, he was 895 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 1: required to stay under state supervision until nineteen one, So 896 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,800 Speaker 1: for twenty years he's been totally free as a bird 897 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,320 Speaker 1: um without that kind of oversight, had no reports of 898 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,320 Speaker 1: further crimes on his side. Since the events of the stabbing, 899 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 1: he has exhibited no further signs of what the Warrens 900 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 1: would call demonic possession. You can also find Loraine Warren 901 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,439 Speaker 1: and I Ed I think, going on record when he's 902 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,120 Speaker 1: released saying that he's got a good he's found a 903 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,439 Speaker 1: good job in town, he's going back home, and he's 904 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,360 Speaker 1: in a much better spot. So they did, to their credit, 905 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 1: like still stand by him, you know what I mean. Afterwards, Uh, 906 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,680 Speaker 1: then keep me for TV. Movies come out and the 907 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,840 Speaker 1: there's a book that comes out, and and it becomes 908 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:12,160 Speaker 1: this entertainment blitz, but demons and horror films and entertainment aside. 909 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,879 Speaker 1: It is crucial to remember these are real people. Their 910 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: lives have been irrevocably affected by these events, in one 911 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,759 Speaker 1: case fatally, and the aftermath of murder and scandal continues 912 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:34,600 Speaker 1: long long after the ephema of media headlines disappears. But 913 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 1: what do you guys think of the warrants? You know, 914 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,799 Speaker 1: I think we all have somewhat different opinions or maybe not. 915 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: Like I watched some footage of them and all of 916 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,759 Speaker 1: the conjuring movies and with you know, archival images and 917 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,800 Speaker 1: footage of them and little interview snippets. But I watched 918 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,920 Speaker 1: an interview in particular with them around this case, and 919 00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,279 Speaker 1: I just got the sense that they had the same 920 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: kind of media training as say, like uh, you know, 921 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,880 Speaker 1: Jim Baker and and as life Tammy Fay had, but 922 00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,279 Speaker 1: maybe not not as a note as glam you know, 923 00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 1: glammed up or whatever, as theatrical, but you know, they 924 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,719 Speaker 1: knew kind of say the name to repeat back, the 925 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,000 Speaker 1: name of the interviewer, and it just there there there 926 00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,400 Speaker 1: there was a certain slickness to their delivery, and I 927 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,520 Speaker 1: don't know, I have I found a little bit troubling. 928 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,360 Speaker 1: And even some contemporaries of THEIRS at the time, like 929 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,960 Speaker 1: the magician, the Great kreskin Um for example, uh, referred 930 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,800 Speaker 1: to them as a size a road show um and 931 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,160 Speaker 1: that this case was absolutely them trying to cash in 932 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,120 Speaker 1: on a tragedy, and that all that was really at 933 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,720 Speaker 1: play here was not demon possession, what what was psychology? Well, 934 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,600 Speaker 1: it's stuff to say in this case, there is money 935 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,640 Speaker 1: to be made. Right, Not only did they elevate themselves 936 00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 1: by being a part of this, you know media blitz, 937 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: the book that Ben just mentioned that comes out, the 938 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 1: TV movies and all these things, they are made in 939 00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:02,120 Speaker 1: part with the warrants by the warrants the book. There's 940 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,840 Speaker 1: a isn't there a suit? A lawsuit that comes about 941 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 1: because of a book written about this? Yes, Matt, I'm 942 00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 1: so glad you brought this up. We'll bring it back around. 943 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 1: The check offs gun has paid off here. Remember Carl 944 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,760 Speaker 1: glass All Jr. The brother we briefly mentioned earlier. He 945 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: and David Glassill, Yes, that David Glatsill Uh came back 946 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,840 Speaker 1: in the public eye to sue an author named Gerald 947 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 1: Brittle and Lorraine Warren after they published a book about 948 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,440 Speaker 1: the scandal in three and republished it in two thousand 949 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:41,040 Speaker 1: and six. This book is called The Devil in Connecticut. 950 00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,040 Speaker 1: In the wake of this lawsuit, By the way, the 951 00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,480 Speaker 1: book was taken out of print, but you can still 952 00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,520 Speaker 1: find it at a at a Good News bookstore. Carl 953 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,040 Speaker 1: blames the warrants for ruining in his life and ruining 954 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:56,240 Speaker 1: his family's life, ruining his brother's life, his association with 955 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,520 Speaker 1: the case, he argued, just kind of forced him out 956 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: of public life, forced himount of town. He says the 957 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: book alleges that he committed criminal abuse of acts, it 958 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,200 Speaker 1: painted him as the villain entirely due to his refusal 959 00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: to recognize David's actions as evidence of demonic possession. He 960 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,000 Speaker 1: further argues that the Warren's purposely made up this possession story, 961 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,360 Speaker 1: that it was a hoax, that it was meant to 962 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,560 Speaker 1: exploit his brother's mental illness, and that the Warrens told 963 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:32,080 Speaker 1: him this story would make the family millionaires while also 964 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,880 Speaker 1: helping Arnie get out of jail. So he's saying it 965 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,440 Speaker 1: was all it was all a cod on their part. Uh. 966 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,200 Speaker 1: Lorraine Warren disagreed with Karl's claims. She says, you know 967 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 1: six priests of God on record, noting the boy was possessed, uh, 968 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: the church not authorized and exorcism. She also claimed that 969 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:56,720 Speaker 1: profits from the book went to the family and phrased 970 00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,680 Speaker 1: as though all the profits from the book went to 971 00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,320 Speaker 1: the family. Karl's says they did get some money. They 972 01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,760 Speaker 1: got a sum total of two thousand dollars from the 973 01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: publisher for all all all the run of the book, 974 01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,640 Speaker 1: and people asked right Lea. They're like, well, why did 975 01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,160 Speaker 1: you wait twenty seven years to talk about this? Glass 976 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,560 Speaker 1: All said, I didn't know about it until a friend 977 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,800 Speaker 1: of mine brought my attention to the fact that this 978 01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 1: book was back in print and was also, wait for it, 979 01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 1: being planned as a major motion picture by a production 980 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,080 Speaker 1: company in Hollywood. How does that work in terms of 981 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,240 Speaker 1: life rights? I mean, I guess because the case was 982 01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,640 Speaker 1: so publicized, these main figures would be considered public figure, 983 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, public figures, um, which it was you're allowed 984 01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:44,800 Speaker 1: to do. But you know, it seems a little bit sketchy. 985 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,480 Speaker 1: You're you're all, you're you're using their real names. I 986 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,720 Speaker 1: don't know, like, like, does this the young boy, you know, David, 987 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,120 Speaker 1: You think that they would have had to change his 988 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,280 Speaker 1: name or something like that because he was a minor 989 01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,560 Speaker 1: at the time and he and he wasn't involved in 990 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,080 Speaker 1: any litigation. I just it just seems a little bit 991 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,480 Speaker 1: unscrupulous to me that that, like the production company in 992 01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,320 Speaker 1: league with the Warrens. I I assume a state since 993 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: they have passed away, is Lorraine dead, Yes, Laurie Warren 994 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,520 Speaker 1: passed away in twenty nineteen. Yeah, this is why a 995 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,040 Speaker 1: lot of these cases end up being the subject of 996 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,600 Speaker 1: legal proceedings. We have to ask ourselves. I think there's 997 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,680 Speaker 1: no better way to close than to ask ourselves. What 998 01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: happened to Arnie and Debbie Johnson? Me glass al Uh. 999 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,080 Speaker 1: They are still married and they have gone on record 1000 01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:37,640 Speaker 1: one hundred percent supporting the entirety of the Warren's versions 1001 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,400 Speaker 1: of events. They claim the class all brothers involved in 1002 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,560 Speaker 1: the suit are simply trying to make a quick buck. 1003 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,760 Speaker 1: Things are acrimonious for the glass Will family. But we 1004 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,480 Speaker 1: see these competing beliefs, and now you know I posit 1005 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,080 Speaker 1: that we pass it to you, conspiracy realists. This is 1006 01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,560 Speaker 1: the true story upon which that film is based. What 1007 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,720 Speaker 1: do you think? Do you believe that demonic possession is real? 1008 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:07,360 Speaker 1: Do you believe that David Glatsill and later Arnie Shyenne 1009 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: Johnson were themselves possessed? Do you believe the warrings are 1010 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,200 Speaker 1: on the level. Have they, like Merlin in a Connecticut 1011 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:18,320 Speaker 1: Yankee and King Arthur's court, started to believe their own mythology. 1012 01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:23,080 Speaker 1: Are their powers real reigns specifically, or are they themselves 1013 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:29,040 Speaker 1: out to uh the guile the credulous. We want to 1014 01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:31,640 Speaker 1: know your answers, and we also want to know your 1015 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,240 Speaker 1: own personal experiences with or belief in things you would 1016 01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,160 Speaker 1: consider to be demons or cases of demonic possession. We 1017 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 1: try to make it easy to find us online. You 1018 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,000 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook and Twitter, where we're Conspiracy 1019 01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Stuff Show. You can also join our Facebook group. Here's 1020 01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,640 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. Just type those words into your 1021 01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:51,480 Speaker 1: little search bar and it'll come right up in this 1022 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,760 Speaker 1: name one or the three of us. Are some reference 1023 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:56,600 Speaker 1: to something that we've done, are just something to make 1024 01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:00,800 Speaker 1: men laughing. Our wonderful community of moderators will let in um. 1025 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,400 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram where we're Conspiracy 1026 01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:08,280 Speaker 1: Stuff Show, Yes, and on YouTube we're Conspiracy Stuff Again. 1027 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 1: And I just want to say thank you to everyone 1028 01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,919 Speaker 1: who's been reviewing the show on all the podcatchers. We've 1029 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,800 Speaker 1: been seeing those come through. We just ask if you 1030 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,320 Speaker 1: have not done that yet, please do so. It really 1031 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,120 Speaker 1: does help the show out if you If you want 1032 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:23,600 Speaker 1: to support us in any way, that's one of the 1033 01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:25,520 Speaker 1: best ways to do it. Then if you don't want 1034 01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,240 Speaker 1: to interact with us on social media, you can use 1035 01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:32,360 Speaker 1: that thing, that weird rectangular thing that's in your pocket 1036 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,200 Speaker 1: right now. Making giving you cancer and I'm just kidding. 1037 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,920 Speaker 1: It's fine. Uh, it's your phone. You can call us. 1038 01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,360 Speaker 1: That's right. We are one eight three three st d 1039 01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:46,000 Speaker 1: w y t K. You've got three minutes. You'll here 1040 01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,760 Speaker 1: a little voice message telling you what you're in the 1041 01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:51,840 Speaker 1: right place, and then those three minutes are yours. Go wild. Yeah, 1042 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,720 Speaker 1: so you do the following things while you're going hamp 1043 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,880 Speaker 1: give us a your nickname, a sick monicher you'd like 1044 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,480 Speaker 1: to refer to as. Most importantly, let us know if 1045 01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,040 Speaker 1: we can use your voice and or message on the show. 1046 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,240 Speaker 1: If you have something personal you'd like to just share 1047 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 1: with the crew here, that's fine, leave it at the end. 1048 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,520 Speaker 1: And if you have a story that needs more than 1049 01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,720 Speaker 1: three minutes suggestion for a topic that you really need 1050 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 1: to dive into with us, then don't feel like you're 1051 01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,520 Speaker 1: restricted to a phone call. There's one way you can 1052 01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,280 Speaker 1: contact us where we are guaranteed to read everything that 1053 01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,160 Speaker 1: we get sent, and that is our good old fashioned 1054 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:49,480 Speaker 1: email address where we are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. 1055 01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:51,720 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 1056 01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,880 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 1057 01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,840 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 1058 01:04:57,920 --> 01:04:59,240 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.