1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Hey, it's time for another Saturday classic. And today we 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: have somebody who I know Tracy really finds endearing, uh, 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: and that is Johnny Appleseed, whould think we were both 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: pretty glad to learn was a real and actual person 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: and not just a cartoon character or a folk tale, 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: which is often kind of what we get in terms 7 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: of his life. Yes, there are so many things that 8 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: I find genuinely endearing about Johnny Appleseed, one of them 9 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: being there is a lot of walking in this story, 10 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: so much walking, and walking is one of my favorite things. 11 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: Before we do get started, I wanted to note that 12 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: when this episode originally came out, we heard from a 13 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: lot of people about our comments regarding his age when 14 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: he died. At the time, the life expectancy was about forty, 15 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: which a lot of people wrote into note is because 16 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: of childhood mortality skewing that number, And that's true. But 17 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: if you live to age five at the time that 18 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: he was alive, you still only had a life expectancy 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: of about fifty five, so he still really was quite old. 20 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: So try to grab an apple and we'll get started. 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you missed in history class from House 22 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: Stuff Works Dot com hi, and welcome to the podcast. 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: I am Tracy be Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. I 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: am extremely excited about who we're talking about today. Me too. 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: It's one of those people who is a figure in 26 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: American history that some people may believe incorrectly to be mythical, 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 1: but was in fact real, and that is Johnny Appleseed. Yeah, 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: we learned about him as elementary school kids, but we 29 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: really only get a very weird, brief sliver of the 30 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: reality of his life. Yes, it's a sliver that almost 31 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: makes him a caricature of himself. People imagine if if 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: you say Johnny Appleseed, whether people think he's real or 33 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: make believe, probably going to imagine a guy walking around 34 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: in rags or skins, barefooted, with a sack full of 35 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: apple seeds, sleeping out under the stars and planning his 36 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: apple trees and then moving on. Well, I've seen the cartoons. 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: That's how it is. It's basically accurate. At the same time, 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: there's a whole much broader element of his life that 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: had nothing to do uh. Some people think of him 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: as the first sort of one of the first conservationists. 41 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: It's really possible to also look at him as a 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: very failed capitalist, and we're going to talk about that today. 43 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: It's interesting because he's one of those that we don't 44 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: really know a whole lot about his early life. No, 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: we do know that he was born on September seventy 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: four in Leminster, Massachusetts, and that his parents were Elizabeth 47 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: Simon's Chapman and Nathaniel Chapman, and he had an older 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: sister named Elizabeth. He also had other siblings eventually, um 49 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: he had a younger brother named Nathaniel, and his mother 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: died just a few weeks after Nathaniel was born, and 51 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: then the younger Nathaniel sadly also died just after that. 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: And that was when Johnny was He wasn't quite too 53 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 1: just a toddler. Yes, it's pretty unclear exactly where Elizabeth 54 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: and john went at that point. Uh, their father was 55 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: serving as one of the Minutemen. He fought at Bunker 56 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: Hill and he was not home until see. So they 57 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 1: were living with someone, presumably, but we don't know who. 58 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: It's clear that there were relatives in that part of 59 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: New England. If you look back far enough into New 60 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: England history, pretty much everyone is related to everyone at 61 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: some point so they had plenty of relatives in the 62 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: area where they lived. We're just not sure who wound 63 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: up taking care of them until one when dad came 64 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: home uh from from the service. He was released, along 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: with several other officers, with the description of unsatisfactory management 66 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: of the military stores. Uh. He went home without getting 67 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: a pension or land, which was often a thing when 68 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: you were when you got out of the service, you 69 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: would get a pension or land that was sort of 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: your payment. Um. He got neither of those, but he 71 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: did get a year's pay. So some people have looked 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: at this as kind of evidence that that his dad 73 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: was kind of shiftless, right. But at the same time, 74 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: the armory itself had outlived its usefulness a little bit, 75 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: so it may have been more like a layoff than 76 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: a firing for truly bad behavior. Yeah. I think always 77 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: here unsatisfactory management. We think there must have been something 78 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: dicey going on, but it really could have just been 79 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: part of things kind of shutting down naturally as well. Um. 80 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: But Nathaniel did remarry. Uh. He married Lisa Cooley and 81 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: then the family lived in Long Meadow, which is south 82 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: of Springfield, Massachusetts, and it grew and grew. It grew 83 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: so much, which is a little bit unfortunate because Nathaniel 84 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: was not the greatest with things like money or farming. 85 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: But Lisa is uh very often pregnant, and she gave 86 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: birth to ten more children between seventeen eighty one and 87 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: eighteen oh three. So that's ten children in twenty one 88 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: and a half years. That is not, in itself a 89 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: surprising number of children for the era. What is a 90 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: little more surprising is that they all seemed to have 91 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: survived until adulthood. And they were sharing a four hundred 92 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: square foot house with an attic for sleeping in tight 93 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 1: it's not a lot of room, uh, And so there 94 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: at some point, most likely because of a combination of 95 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: a lot of people in a little space, uh, and 96 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: the alluring prospect of land that you could get for 97 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: cheap out west, and probably not a lot of money 98 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: around the house. John and his younger brother Nathaniel, who 99 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: was eleven or fifteen at the time, left. The dates 100 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: are a little un clear. It was either seventeen ninety 101 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: two or seventeen ninety six, depending on yeah the accounts. 102 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: Very there's a lot of the accounts vary in this story. 103 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: So John was eighteen or twenty two. His half brother 104 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: Nathaniel was either eleven or fifteen. They left Massachusetts together 105 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: and traveled to western Pennsylvania at some point in that era. Also, uh, 106 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: there is a story. It's hard to substantiate a lot 107 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: of this because medical records were not very clear at 108 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: the time, but there's a story that John was kicked 109 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: on the head by a horse at age one, uh 110 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: and that the injury was severe enough that he had 111 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: to have part of his skull removed to relieve the pressure, 112 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: which is a valid treatment for that kind of injury, 113 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: but still at the time, that's pretty primitive medical time. 114 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm making the scrunched up chills in my spine face. 115 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: But right there there are people who attribute his later 116 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: eccentricities to having had this injury. That makes sense, but 117 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: since it's not well documented, we can't know for sure. 118 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: Together they left, I kind of imagine John kind of 119 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: going and it's too crowded in here. We have no money. 120 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: Let we we can get some land if we go west. 121 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: So let's do that. Yeah, And it was, you know, 122 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: just beyond the Ohio River was the frontier, and many 123 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: people were making their land grabs. They knew that there 124 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: was potential property to be hand, but it was very dangerous. Animals, snakes, 125 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: other people, a lots other people of every sort. Uh. 126 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: They're sort of a perception that the other people threat 127 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: was Native Americans who were justifiably uh, defending their land, 128 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: but also everyone, yeah, other settlers that were trying to 129 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: make their own way and trying to protect what they 130 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: perceived as their opportunities. Uh. And so there was also 131 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: a lot of illness and injury, presumably some of them 132 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: from interactions with other people. And there wasn't really much 133 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: in the way of medical care, right in addition to 134 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: the fact that the medical care at the time was 135 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: was often not sound from a scientific perspective. There just 136 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: weren't a lot of doctors on the frontier. There were 137 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: a few people who had actual nickel training. So if 138 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: you got sick or hurt on the frontier, you might 139 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: die of something that in a city would have been 140 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: more uh. And they so people and the government were 141 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: buy or trade land from the Native Americans and then 142 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: turn around and sell it for a huge profit or 143 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: divide it up like it was the original flipping model. Uh. 144 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: And sometimes Congress would grant businesses the rights to divide 145 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: up and dole out the land for money or in 146 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: exchange for residency and improvement requirements. So things like orchards 147 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: developing orchards uh and that you know was intended to 148 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: keep people from flipping from just reselling their stuff really quickly, 149 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: like they actually wanted development and progress and not just 150 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: money turnovers. Yes, apples themselves were important at a time. 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: We think of apples today is what we eat in 152 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: pies and and just eating them and delicious things to eat. 153 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: If you have ever seen the Disney Johnny Appleseed cartoon, 154 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about ways to eat apples. 155 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: Eating apples was not in the primary concern at a 156 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: time at all. Cider was a lot more important. There 157 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: would be like little scrubby apples that were kind of 158 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: bitter that would be pressed into uh cider or made 159 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: into vinegar. A lot of people were planning apples. And 160 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: while they could be dried out and stored for the 161 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: winter and serve as a source of nourishment, that wasn't 162 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: their primary use. The primary use was cider, hard cider 163 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: and apple jack. It was about drunkenness. And then it 164 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: is important to just take that that moment to note 165 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: that I think we a particularly American school children are 166 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: taught like that. He sort of brought apples to the world. 167 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: It was like, look at this wonderful thing I can 168 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: bring you, But in fact everyone was trying to grow 169 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: apples right one. They weren't really that wonderful at that point. 170 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: They were kind of gross to eat that they did 171 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: not taste very good. They were not the big juicy 172 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: anything supermarket. There were lots of other apple people and 173 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: lots of lots of other orchard people. Uh. His personality 174 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: and things that he did just make him particularly memorable 175 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: in the world of orchard planting in those days of 176 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: the Frontier. He was also just he had a knack 177 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: for figuring out where people were going to go next. 178 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: So he would get seeds from Pennsylvania in the winter 179 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: by picking through the refuse at the cider presses. He 180 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: would sort of pick through, uh, this pulpy stuff that 181 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: was left over after they made cider. He would gather 182 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: up all these seeds and then he would head west 183 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: and he would plant the seeds. He would use um 184 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: the brush he had cleared and possibly other brush to 185 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: make offense to keep animals out, and then he would 186 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: go away. And when people made it into that territory 187 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: that year, the following year there would already be apple 188 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: seedlings growing on the land which they could buy from Chapman. 189 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: Uh So he was a stute in that regard. He 190 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: was super stute in that regard. Had he actually turned 191 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: that into a business model, Well, in a way he 192 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: did turn it into a that was sort of his 193 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: business model, but he didn't really care about money. It 194 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: was more of an apple making model than a money 195 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: making model. Right. He gave a lot of seedlings away. Basically, 196 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: if you were moving on to land that you were 197 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: hoping to make your own and you could not afford 198 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: your apple seedlings, Johnny Apples would give them to you. 199 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: He also if he saw horses that were being mistreated, 200 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: he would buy them from you and then put them 201 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: out to pasture. So endearing, he was very endearing. He 202 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: just I read a book that we'll talk more about 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: at the end of the podcast. In this and and 204 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: the writer compared him to Andrew Carnegie, except that Andrew 205 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: Carnegie amassed wealth and then gave it away, and Johnny 206 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: applese just gave away all the wealth as he got it, 207 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: so he never actually had a lot because he was 208 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: giving it all away, no accumulation. Kind of charming, but 209 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: not really effective if your goal is actually to own anything, 210 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: which apparently wasn't his goal, and if it was, his 211 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: goaling didn't do it very well. Uh. We don't really 212 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: know his exact route through that part of the world. 213 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: We sort of know generally that he went from New 214 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: York into Pennsylvania and then started moving into Ohio and Indiana. Uh. 215 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: Several people have tried to kind of recreate the route 216 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: that he followed um, with varying success. There's not a 217 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: lot of actual documentation surviving about his life at the time. Well, 218 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: and even the documentation is largely based on word of mouth, 219 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: so it's accuracy is not verifiable. It's it's yes. And 220 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: in some cases we know that the people who were 221 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: supplying these oral accounts were not necessarily all that trustworthy 222 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: as historians, because a lot of the travel that he 223 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: was doing was ahead of the the influx of settlers. Uh, 224 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: there weren't really roads. It would be sort of hard going. 225 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: A lot of the actual written detail that we have 226 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: comes from trading post ledgers, and one of the first 227 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: of these is in sev in Warren, Pennsylvania, at which 228 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: point John and Nathaniel were recorded to be there to 229 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: buy things. Some of the things that he bought included 230 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: a spike gimlet, which is a tool that he could 231 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: have used for all kinds of things out on the frontier. 232 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: It was a very multi use tool. He also bought books, cheese, 233 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: and sun drees and that truly all you need give 234 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: your books in your cheese. Man. If I had books 235 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: and cheese, I would be set. So yeah, he that's 236 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: we know that he was in Warren at that time. 237 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: There are other trading post ledger records of his movements, 238 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: but not enough to really piece together. This is exactly 239 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: how he traveled and when, and there is some belief 240 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: that his first orchard was actually near Warren on the 241 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Allegheny River. Warren was very small, not having great luck. 242 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: A storm had knocked down all the trees, a fire 243 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: or burned up all the dead wood, and then the 244 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: relationship between the settlers and the Native Americans in the 245 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: area got really hostile. It was not really the most 246 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: welcoming or perfect place. There was pretty much one person 247 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: living there when they got there. Uh that was Dan 248 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: McKay or McQuay. He worked for the Holland Company, which 249 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: was one of the agencies that was dividing up and 250 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: selling off land. UM. He may have employed the Chapman 251 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: Brothers to kind of guard the land against squatters and 252 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: timber thieves, but it's a little unclear whether he was 253 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: actually working for this man or or if they just 254 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: knew each other. Um. But according to writings of Lancing 255 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: Wetmore UH and the Warren Ledger, john eventually picked a 256 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: location for a nursery in Uh. This is another example 257 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: of we don't really know how accurate this person's report was. 258 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: He was a lawyer and a judge and was pretty 259 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: well respected at the time, but he was also really 260 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: fond of a good story. Um. And we know from 261 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: other accounts that there are things that he got completely wrong, 262 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: so it discredits his discredits him a little telling a 263 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: little bit. But probably the first orchard that Johnny apples 264 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: he planted was near Warren, Uh sometime around so we 265 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: know Johnny wanted land, and he did buy plenty of land, 266 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: but he didn't stay on it to fulfill the terms 267 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: of his claims or claim jumpers got in there and 268 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: took it from him, right. Uh, So he had skill 269 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: and you know, acumen for planting things, but not so 270 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: much with the patients. No, he didn't stick through with things. 271 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: He would sign nine year leases on stuff and then 272 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: either not pay the bills or not fulfill the residency 273 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: requirements to keep that lease. So there he did a 274 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: lot of getting land and then the land would fall 275 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: out of his hands. Um. He was also choosing the 276 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: hardest way to grow apples. Uh. The an easier way 277 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: to grow apples is to graft cuttings of apples to 278 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: root stock, and that's pretty much how apple cultivation happens. 279 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: Now what he was doing because he felt that it 280 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: was kinder on the plants and that it was in 281 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: fact wicked to cut up plants to graph them onto things. 282 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: What he was doing was planting seeds. That is, there's 283 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: a number of reasons why that is not the best 284 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: way to cultivate apples. Yeah, I mean, I have done 285 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: some apple seedlings, and they are difficult, and they don't 286 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: bear fruit often very well for a long time. They 287 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: tend to grow so big that it's hard to harvest 288 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: from them, and it takes them a very long time 289 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: to actually put out apples, and then the apples that 290 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: they do put out. It's really a mix of what 291 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: you're going to get. Apple seeds are pretty cool because 292 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: they're heterozygous, so they have the code, the genetic code 293 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: for all kinds of different apples in one seed. You 294 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: don't really know which of those jeans are going to 295 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: express when the tree is growing, so you might plant 296 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: seeds from a delicious apple and get disgusting apples. There 297 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: are so many factors that go into something like that, 298 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: from like the soil pH you know what kind of 299 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: winters and summers it has when it's young, like if 300 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: it has a drought, that will affect what is produced. 301 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: So it is it's a very unpredictable and difficult way 302 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: to get fruit, right. But on the other side of that, 303 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: seeds are a lot more flexible and when you can 304 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: plant them. You can really only graft in the spring, 305 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: but you can plant seeds sort of nine months out 306 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: of the year. Uh. And because of what we said before, 307 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: those little bitter, very tough tart apples were in high 308 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: demand for making vinegar and cider, and also those things 309 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: were in demand because vinegar was considered to be medicinal 310 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: uh And because out on the frontier there was not 311 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: a lot to do. People were very interested in drinking, 312 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: so it didn't matter so much if you produce delicious 313 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: fruit now, just as long as you were producing something 314 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: that could be used in some way to make vinegar cider. Yes, 315 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: uh so some he sold, as you said, and some 316 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: he gave way. I also wonder, going back to his 317 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: various pieces of property, how many people just inherited, you know, 318 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: predeveloped apple because because he just abandoned the spot. There 319 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: are a lot of records that survive, whether it's because 320 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: bookkeeping with sloppy or just you know, time has kind 321 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: of erased some of the German documents. But the oral 322 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: history it's pretty unanimous in that if you couldn't afford trees, 323 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: he would just give them to you. And the lack 324 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: of records is a problem in terms of tracking many things. 325 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: You know, his sale of seedlings, his land, his forfeits 326 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: of the land, whether or not, and this is getting 327 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: into some interesting elements of the story. He was actually 328 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: a minister or a missionary of the Church of New Jerusalem. 329 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: The Church of the New Jerusalem is a church that 330 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: people may not have heard of now. It was also 331 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: known as the New Church, and it was based on 332 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: Swedish mint mystic Emmanuel Swedenborg, who was a popular religious 333 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: figure for about a hundred years following his death in 334 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy two. The Swedenborg sect was really intellectual. He 335 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: wrote volumes and volumes and volumes about his divine revelations 336 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: and his spiritual thought. He was very specific about things. 337 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: A lot of religious writing can be kind of general 338 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: in describing what God is like or what Heaven is like, 339 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: and he was really down to the details and described 340 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: his religious visions in extreme detail. Uh. And he was 341 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: also very influential. Some of the notable people who were 342 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: influenced by him include William Blake, Charles Baudelaire, Garta, Carl Young, 343 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: William but earlier Yates, Walt Whitman who I love, and Emerson. 344 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: So he was a very influential writer at the time. 345 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: He had a really strong streak of intellectualism. Um his 346 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: with the church that was founded on his teaching, which 347 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: was known as the New Church, had sort of areas 348 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: of the United States that was developing at the time 349 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: that where that was extremely popular, and it was also 350 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: very different from a lot of the other church going 351 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: that was happening on the frontier, which was much more 352 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: about tent revivals and that sort of thing. And this 353 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: was a much thinkier sort of religion, and Johnnie Appleseed 354 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: embraced it, he really did. He actually started preaching the 355 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 1: New Church teachings while he traveled about. So when he 356 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: was in Ohio and he would take shelter with people, 357 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: he would bring them the good news straight from Heaven. Yes. Uh. 358 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: In eighteen twenty nine, a fundamentalist preacher named Adam Paine 359 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: actually asked the crowd, where is your barefoot pilgrim now? 360 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: And John Chapman, dressed in rags with unkempt hair, held 361 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: up a foot and said, here he is, yes, which 362 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: is so charming. And that's sort of an example of 363 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: the intersection between the more tent revival esque religion that 364 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: was pretty common in a lot of that area at 365 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: the time. And and then John Chapman he was really 366 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: an outsider and a loner and not like that at all. 367 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: Um He also he definitely was not operating in isolation. 368 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: The New Church knew that he was around and knew 369 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: that he was spreading their teachings UM. Because he appears 370 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: in reports of the New Church and in other writings 371 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: from the church starting in around eighteen seventeen, so he 372 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: was a known figure to the church as part of 373 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: this whole religious focus. He was a vegetarian, and he 374 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: was celibate, as in our recent episode about Marjorie Kemp, 375 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: though he did have spiritual relationships with people who were 376 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: not physically present. So he was having what we're going 377 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: to call spiritual intercourse um with the spirits of two 378 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: deceased women who were to He was told in a 379 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: vision that they were going to be his companions in 380 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: the afterlife. This is also something that Swedenborg wrote about 381 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: in his writings. Yeah, apparently he had apparently hoped to 382 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: propose to Nancy Tannehill, but she was already engaged. That's 383 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: one of those stories that exists about his life that 384 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: is sort of one person's word, and we don't really 385 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: know if that's a true story, but we do know 386 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: that he never got married. He was reported to be 387 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: celibate for his whole life. UM. I don't know if 388 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: if the Nancy Tannehill story is a true story or not, 389 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: but it is a thing that somebody said about him 390 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: at one point, it's a it's a side note in 391 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: the story of his relations with women and with his religion, 392 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: since those all sort of uh, they contradict each other 393 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: a little bit. Yes, and now we're getting to an 394 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: era that has often talked about in history but not 395 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: necessarily relation to him, which is a War of eighteen twelve. Yes, 396 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: he was really skilled at walking, like he that's walking 397 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: was something, and he was just great at and he 398 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: he was reported too often not wear shoes, and he 399 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: walked so much that his feet had these leather like calluses. 400 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: And because he was so good at walking around and 401 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: because he knew the territory so well, settlers sometimes would 402 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: hire him to kind of keep an eye on things 403 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: as tensions were starting to grow leading up to the 404 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: Or of eighteen twelve. UM. At least one time he 405 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: either falsely or mistakenly raised the alarm about incoming troops 406 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: who were going to attack, when it they were actually 407 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: American troops troops UM. In spite of that, or maybe 408 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: because this story had not reached where he was, he 409 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: did have a very Paul Revere's Ride esque race for 410 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: help that he reportedly undertook. Uh in September of eighteen twelve, 411 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: colonel named Colonel Kratzer was going to remove the Native 412 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: American population from southwest Ohio. He convinced a preacher named 413 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: James Compass, who the Native Americans they're trusted, to help 414 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: him move them, like remove them from their homes. He 415 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: did this by saying that he didn't want bloodshed, he 416 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: just wanted to take these people under the protection of 417 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: the government. Uh. The reverend believed him and and convinced 418 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: the people in this one village to move. The response 419 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: of the colonel's troops then was to set their homes 420 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: on fire. And this sparked a lot of problems, understandably 421 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: because that was a terrible thing to do. Uh. There 422 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: were acts of revenge on both sides. It's kind of 423 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: a long and drawn out story, but there was you know, 424 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: the one side would ambush another side, and then the 425 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: other side would retaliate, and then on an unfortunate fallout 426 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: from that, a young person would wind up being killed. 427 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: It's a very kind of long and convoluted story. But 428 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: it became clear that things were getting very bad and 429 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: that a full scale attack was incoming, and people were 430 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: very worried and and We're basically like, we need back up, 431 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: and Johnny apple Seed volunteered to be that backup or 432 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: to go for that backup. Um. According to the lore, 433 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: he ran bareheaded and barefooted, leaving at sunset and running 434 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: through the night, running a distance that was effectively a 435 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: marathon there and a marathon back. Holly might know about 436 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: how hard that would be. Um. It's actually more likely 437 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: that he was on horse. But the story is that 438 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: he was on foot running and he would raise the 439 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: alarm at farms and homesteads that he passed on the way. UM, 440 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: as he ran to a fort at Mount Vernon to 441 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: get help and to raise the alarm. This whole story 442 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: probably has a fair amount of it's been mythologize. It's 443 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: definitely been mythologized. Um. It does appear to be a 444 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: historic thing that actually happened. Probably he was not running 445 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: on foot the whole time. UM, But that really started 446 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: to solidify him as a mythic figure even at the time, 447 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: not just now, even though now that that's a story 448 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: that maybe people outside of that region of the United 449 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: States haven't heard about. But he was becoming a mythic 450 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: figure even while he was alive. Well, that was probably 451 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: aided by the fact that he was a little bit, 452 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: as you said, kind of an odd fellow. He wasn't 453 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: really a mainstream society kind of guy, so he already 454 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: had a bit of a mystique in all likelihood, and 455 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: then that combined with some of these sort of amazing 456 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: tales of his doing that really is fertile ground to 457 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: create a mythology around someone. Yes, he was very odd 458 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: and very memorable, and usually because of his pattern of 459 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: moving around, he would move into a place before a 460 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: lot of people were there, he would do things that 461 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: were memorable, and then the population would start to move 462 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: into this area where he previously had been and had 463 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: already made a name for himself, and they would sort 464 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: of hear these Johnny Appleseed stories. Um. So he had 465 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: a pretty huge reputation, uh in the era in which 466 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: he lived and in the years afterward, and that has 467 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: continued today. People don't necessarily know all these other aspects 468 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: of him, but they most people have heard of Johnny 469 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: Applesee before. Yeah, and I mean he's got the name 470 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Johnny Appleseed and John Chapman soon. So in eighteen o five, 471 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: his family, um had moved to Duck Creek, Ohio, and 472 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: they were in really rough financial situation. UH. But there 473 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: isn't evidence of whether or not John reunited with them. 474 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: He was kind of a loner, as we had said, 475 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: even from the church, even though he supported it and 476 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: spread their teachings. He wasn't really you know, attending socials 477 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: or attending regular right and they're writing about him. Started 478 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: to fall off as he got later in his life 479 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: and maybe increasingly odd in his behavior. UM. So we 480 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: don't really know if he was on good terms with 481 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: his family when he died. We we don't really know 482 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: if he had any close relationships at that point. UM. 483 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: But he did die peacefully, but of illness at the 484 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: age of seventy at the home of William Worth in 485 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: His home was north of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and that 486 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: was in March of eighteen forty five. UM. The official 487 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: accounts at the time kind of vary in their specific dates, 488 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: but generally recognized that sometime in the middle of March. UH. 489 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: The cause was known as winter plague, and that was 490 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: sort of a catch out term for various diseases that 491 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: people tended to get more in the winter. UH. There 492 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: was an obituary that ran on March eighteen forty five 493 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 1: and the Fort Wayne Sentinel. And what is kind of 494 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: striking to me about his death at the age of 495 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: seventy is that the life expectancy at the time was 496 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: a little over forty. So he was very, very old 497 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: when he passed away. So not at all surprising that 498 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: a man of that advanced age would succumb to winter plague. 499 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we know, even in modern times, the elderly 500 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: are you know, at greater risk of even you know, 501 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: pretty minor illnesses that younger people could live through. So 502 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: to have been seventi is pretty impressive, especially when you 503 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: consider that he spent most of his time wandering around 504 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: in the woods, you know what I mean. It wasn't 505 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: like he lived a life of luxury and comfort with 506 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: every possible you know, cleanliness applied to his universe well, 507 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: and not even luxury and comfort, but just basic medical 508 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: care and having a home. He didn't really have any 509 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: of that. He did own some things when he died, 510 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: and among his effects after his death, uh he had 511 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: a gray mayor, uh, several parcels of land, an orchard 512 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: of two thousand apple trees, and various other things. Uh. 513 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: Some of the land got sold off to pay the 514 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: back taxes on that land because he had not paid it, 515 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: which is not surprising um. And then the remainder of 516 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: his possessions were sold off for a total of four 517 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: hundred and nine dollars, which would come to about nine 518 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: thousand dollars today. But pretty much all of that money 519 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: went to paying off various things that he had owed 520 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: during his life. Some of these claims might have been true, 521 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: and some of them might have been false, but there 522 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: were people who claims to who have to have provided 523 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: him room and board in his later life. He definitely, 524 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: as as his m O was kind of to get land, 525 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: plant things, and leave. He definitely did owe money on things. 526 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: So by the time all of that was was taken 527 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: care of, there was really no money left In the 528 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,239 Speaker 1: John Chapman's last Johnny appleseed to state, Yeah, he had 529 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: no fiscal legacy to speak of. It is interesting I 530 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: think that the obituary from the church did not appear 531 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: until two years after he had dined. Yes, it was 532 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: much later. Just interesting, and I don't think we know 533 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: why it took so long. No that if we do, 534 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: I did not find that unless it's just a matter 535 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: of things taking a while to get back to them. 536 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: And here's another interesting thing about him, which sort of 537 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: I also find oddly endearing. He did a little bit 538 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: of self mythologizing and promoting in terms of his methods. 539 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: He was simultaneously a loner and someone who liked to 540 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: talk to people. So he did talk to people, and 541 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: he talked to people about himself. He liked to entertain 542 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: little children. He would entertain little boys by like, uh, 543 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: poking pins into his crazy calloused feet, and he liked 544 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: to give presents to uh, to children like he He 545 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: was a person who endeared himself to others. People generally 546 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: liked him a lot, but the way that he talked 547 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: about himself was often it's sort of selective. Like he 548 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: he didn't really talk about his many many failed purchases 549 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: of land, you know. He talked about being a vegetarian 550 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: and spreading the word of God and and planting apple trees, 551 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: and so he had sort of made himself into an 552 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: easily mythologized person before he became a sort of mythic 553 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: character in American history. Even at the time, there were 554 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: people pretty well known people who sort of eulogized him. 555 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: Either in in speeches or in print. Uh. There was 556 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: a reported eulogy by Sam Houston, who was a senator. UH. 557 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: That is a little bit suspect. We're not sure if 558 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: that really happened or if it's apocryphal. UH. William T. 559 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: Sherman is one of the people who allegedly, UH spoke 560 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: very highly of Johnny Appleseed later on. Uh. There's also 561 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: a lot of reports that he had a really good 562 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: relationship with many of the Native American tribes in the frontier, 563 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: even when those tribes were really at odds with the settlers. Uh. 564 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: And that is one of those oral history things that 565 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: we don't really have written substantiation of. But that sort 566 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: of the area that he had was, which was he 567 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: was friendly with everyone, even when the people he was 568 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: friendly with were not friendly with one another. Well, and 569 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: I think that either could be that you get into 570 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: a chicken or the egg thing where it's like is 571 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: that was that because he was always sort of apart 572 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: from everyone to some degree that he wasn't anti social, 573 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: but he wasn't really, as we said, part of a 574 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, social group regularly, So he could kind of 575 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: operate between those two because he didn't have obvious allegiance 576 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: to anyone um or I mean, did he perpetrate that 577 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: and you know, continue that behavior because he recognized that 578 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: it was beneficial. We don't know. There was also the 579 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: part about how he did seem to you in a 580 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: lot of ways because he was not exploiting land. He 581 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: was he was sort of tending trees and not wanting 582 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: to harm things, and not wanting to harm animals. There's 583 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: the idea that he had a good relationship with other 584 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: cultures that also had a similar mentality. It's kind of 585 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: a misperception that the entirety of Native American history was 586 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: all about conserving the land, but that that definitely was 587 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: a thread in some tribes, and so that's sort of 588 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: a commonality that he had with other people. Also that 589 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: that there have continued to be all kinds of other 590 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 1: writings about Johnny Appleseeen. There was an article in Harper's 591 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: New Monthly about him in eighteen seventy one that was 592 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: extremely lengthy. He was the subject of the poem in 593 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: Praise of Johnny Appleseed by Vatchel Lindsay in nine and 594 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: he's also been in various other poems and films. Um 595 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: Disney has a thing from nineteen forty eight that's about 596 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: Johnny Appleseed. It is just wrong. It's completely wrong. Um. 597 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: It's one of the things that figures prominently in it 598 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: is that he wore a saucepot on his head as 599 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: a hat. There is actually one historical account of him 600 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: wearing three things on his head as hats simultaneously. In 601 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: the middle of them was a saucepan. But I don't 602 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: think he wore a saucepan on his head in common practice. UM. So, 603 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: if you watch it is a delightful thing to watch, 604 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: but it is so incorrect in so many ways. Um. 605 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: There are apple apples surviving that are probably descended from 606 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: apple trees that he planted. Apple trees don't live hundreds 607 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: of years, but because people propagate apple trees by grafting things, 608 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: those graphs are clones of the trees that they were 609 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: cut off of. So uh, there are some trees in 610 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: existence that that probably came from once that he planted. 611 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: But a lot of the orchards that were credited to him, 612 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: um as far as starting them, were burned down during 613 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: the Temperance movement movement because, as we said, apples at 614 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: the time were for drinking, not for eating, not as 615 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: a delightful Nature's candy treat. So yeah, Johnny apple Tree, 616 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: I had no idea of either the depths of his 617 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: religious devotion h or the sort of Paul Revere like run. 618 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know of either of those two things when 619 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: I started researching this podcast. I kind of can't stop 620 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: thinking about whether or not he actually ran that because 621 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: there are people that can run that much. I mean, 622 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: they're ultramarathoners out there. Yes, And if he was wandering 623 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: around all the time, it's possible. Yes. I read the 624 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: book Johnny Appleseed, The Man, the Myth and the American 625 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 1: Story by Howard Means as part of my research for 626 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: this podcast. There is so much more information about him 627 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: and about the time in that book than we have 628 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: gone into today. But one of the things that it 629 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: talks about is people trying to just determine whether that 630 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: run was possible to have done on foot. Uh, And 631 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: the answer is sort of maybe. So yeah, So it 632 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: makes sense that I would be sitting here going, I 633 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: don't know, he could have done it. Maybe. Hey. Since 634 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: these episodes that we're sharing our past classics, we have 635 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: some updated information that will supersede the contact stuff you've 636 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: heard before. If you want to email us, our email 637 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: address is History Podcast at houst works dot com, and 638 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: you can find us across the spectrum of social media 639 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: as Missed in History. You can also find us at 640 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: missed in History dot com, and you can visit our 641 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: parent company, howst Works, at how stuff works dot com. 642 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 643 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: how staff works dot com.