WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 172 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.760 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.800 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's James today 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.720 and I'm joined again by Kevin McDonald. Kevin is a 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.080 retired officer from the Irish Defense Forces with some special 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:37.800 forces and peacekeeping experience. 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.600 Welcome to the show, Kevin, Thanks, thanks very much for 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.839 having me. And just as a sort of disclaimer at 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:47.120 the very start, any views er opinions that I expressed, 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.640 the opinions of a retired senior officer from the Irish 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.360 Defense Forces can't be construed it has been in any 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.960 way the views of the Irish Defense Forces, not indeed 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.280 that of the United Nations. So I just wanted to 0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.960 put that was there before we get into it. 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.680 Yeah, yeah, not a UN or an Irish Defense Forces spokesperson, 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.840 not that we've had many of those suppose on our show, Kevin, 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:08.679 we're here today to talk a little bit about the 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:14.440 situation in Congo and perhaps more specifically like how the 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.880 peacekeeping mission there has it evolved and changed and sort 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.320 of morphed over the years. So maybe just to begin with, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.600 I can give an idea that like this city of Goma, 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.360 which is the capital of North Kivu Province, has recently 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.240 been captured by M twenty three rebels, would explain who 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.679 they are people who aren't familiar in a minute. It's 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.080 a city of about a million people. I believe they're 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.160 saying around three thousand people have been killed in this operation, 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:41.880 which is I mean, it's a massive. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.160 Death toll in a short space of time. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:45.959 Very short space of time. Yeah, And some of the 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.840 other stuff I've heard, like at one point there's a 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.640 prison within the city which there was a jail break, 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.960 and they think a hundred of the women who were 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.360 incarcerated there were sexually assaulted and in some cases burned alive. 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:03.400 After the jail break happened, thousands of Congolese military and 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:08.760 police have surrendered. A contingent of I believe Romanian private 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.480 military contractors were captured. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.200 Yes, captured, surrendered either where they went into Rwanda. I 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.160 think about three hundred of them, which is a significant 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:19.200 amount of mercenaries. 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.800 Yeah, yeah, especially when we're talking about Romania, which is 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:23.440 not a vast country. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:24.079 Yeah. 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.360 Understandably, a lot of things are happening in the US, 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.799 so people may have missed it, and like I think 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.440 people in the US, just due to the nature of 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.680 news being quite naval gazing here, may not be as 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.680 familiar with the conflict in Congo. Like if they know 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.000 about it, it's from Warren zvon Songs or maybe from 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:41.760 maybe from a couple. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.280 Of films, Layer's Gone and Money. 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:43.600 Yeah. 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.640 Yeah, what's the other one? Roland, the Thompson Ganna. That's 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.400 the Law and the Headless Thompson. That's it. That's the one. Yeah, yeah. 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:50.639 Yeah. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:57.280 So let's talk then about the various United Nations peacekeeping 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:02.000 missions in Congo. They've been there since the nineteen sixties, 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:03.440 is it on and off? 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.520 Yeah? So the first mission in the Congo was oak 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.760 in nineteen sixty and a lot of people would say 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.200 that that was the first UN mission, but as I 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.120 think we discussed the last time, the first yu Went 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.359 mission was full scale war in nineteen fifty in Korea, 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.799 and that mission is still in existence the UNC, the 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:25.600 United Nations Command, but I suppose speaking about the Congo specifically. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.520 So in nineteen sixty there was seventeen newly independent states, 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.680 of which fourteen were from Africa. I agreed to a 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.920 call from the UN to establish this mission in the Congo, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.720 and Ireland answered the call as well, so we deployed. 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.760 It was the first time that we deployed with the UN, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.400 and we had a battalion there from nineteen sixty to 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:55.160 I think nineteen sixty whenever the initial deployment ended, and 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:59.839 it was it was a fairly tough, intense introduction to peace. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.480 In the early in nineteen sixty there was an engagement 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:08.280 between an Irish platoon and a large group of Bluba 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.840 tribesmen and there was nine Irish soldiers killed and twenty 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.240 six Blubas killed. And that was the first time that 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.039 Ireland kind of had to deal with that kind of 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:20.719 death overseas, so it was pretty traumatic. And then in 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.680 nineteen sixty one, you've probably seen the film The Siege 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:28.400 of Jariteville, but it recounts the true story of an 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.680 Irish company under Kamada pack Quendlin. His company was one 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.600 hundred and fifty eight roughly strong, and they were attacked 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.239 while they were at mass on a Sunday morning by 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.120 a group of between three and four thousand Catanganese well 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.880 armed soldiers backed up by French and Belgian and South 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.840 African mercenaries. They also had an attack helicopter and they 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:50.680 had an attack chest. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:52.960 I think he had some of the old Rhodesians in 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:54.160 there as well at that time. 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, unfortunately, anything for a fight, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.040 but the Irish held out for I think over a week, 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.480 and they didn't give up when they ran out of water, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:07.800 they didn't give up when they ran out of food. 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.040 It was when they had no bullets left they negotiated 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.839 a surrender thanks to the skill of the officers and 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.200 NCOs and men. Not one fatality on the other side. 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:19.680 Yeah. 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.840 Unfortunately, when they came home because they had surrendered, they 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.320 were treated like parias for years. It was seemed like 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.000 a state on the nation. Now if God forbid, they 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.360 had fifty percent casualties that have been treated like heroes. 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.760 Yeah yeah, And it's only in recent years that they're 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.599 getting the recognition that they should have got back in 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:38.400 nineteen sixty one. 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.800 That's really interesting. I know they've been treated that way. 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:42.040 It's quite sad to hear. 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.279 Yeah, yeah, it's a strange one. And a lot of 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.080 the people that we will say shunning these officers and 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.240 NCOs and men. It's having to serve to overseas. And 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.279 like if the UN they tried once to resupply them 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.680 with ammunition from the year, but it wasn't successful. So 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.120 if the UN had full supported that company, they would 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.080 have held out even longer. But I suppose that's that's 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.400 the way things things go. So that's the first mission 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:11.760 to the Congo, And I could be corrected. I think 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.560 sixty four sixty five it might have sort of started 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:20.839 to draw down. Then in nineteen ninety nine, after it 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.200 was the first the second war, the UN established monarch 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.080 monu See and that lasted from nineteen n ninety nine 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:33.960 until twenty ten when it was renamed and rechanged into MONUSCO. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.720 And the difference between the two is that MINUSCO is 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.960 what we call an integrated mission. And the three pillars 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.080 of an integrated mission are the restoration of the rule 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.479 of law, the protection of civilians, and the provision for 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:53.000 long term recovery and democratic governance. So it's combining we'll say, 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.960 the force of a military presence, but also there's special 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.640 advises on justice and police seeing on governance, all that 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.000 sort of stuff which you wouldn't have an emission like UNIFIL, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:07.560 which we discussed the last time. Yeah, yeah, which is 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.480 the earlier form of peacekeeping. So the NUSCO was supposed 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.320 to have left the country in twenty twenty four, but 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.640 they were given a i think a one year extension. Yeah, 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:24.280 And unfortunately with the twenty three rebel advance, the mission 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:30.640 is relocating most of its staff evacuating others. The difference 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:34.600 between the two terms is very specific. You relocate within 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.920 the country and you evacuate out of the country. And 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:43.640 I also note that some of the Hybrid African Union 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.240 peacekeeping operations there was I think thirteen South Africans killed 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.320 and in the initial stages of the of the onslaught 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.040 towards towards going. So that that's kind of where we 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.480 are with the With the I think at the at 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.000 its height within twenty one twenty two, there was probably 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.920 a strength of twenty thousand. But if you think the 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.680 DRC is the second largest country in Africa. It's vast, yeah, 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.720 and the eleventh largest country in the world. Just the 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.720 size of just phenomenal. So you can imagine what the 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.040 Congo and is entire no more than Sudan, but what 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.400 the Congo and its entirety was back in the day. Yeah, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:21.440 absolutely huge. 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.200 Yeah, it's vast. It it encompasses different climates, own different 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.240 ethnic groups as we're seeing right. 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:29.560 Two hundred main ethnic groups. 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.240 Yeah, yeah, it's it's a fascinating place. It's a place 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:34.600 I've wanted to go for a long time. I spent 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.559 some time on the Congo Rwanda border a few years ago. 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.079 I'm not so far from going er actually like riding 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.360 riding my bike around. And it's a very interesting place 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.360 in terms of what Rwanda is, a very interesting place 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.959 in terms of its relation to its neighbors. I think 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:52.079 people will probably struggle to conceptualize. I actually saw somebody 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.920 had posted on Twitter, somebody who talks about Syria mostly 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.120 like how on Earth is Rwanda invading Congo? And they 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.160 had like a picture, you know, and the land mass 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.199 of Rwanda. Randa is one of the smaller countries in Africa, 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.640 and Congo is obviously a vast country. Are you come 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.319 toward explaining a little bit of like the Rwandan involvements. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.360 It's complicated, and it goes back to the cities the 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:20.320 genocide back in ninety four ninety four, I think, yeah, yeah, 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.880 and the Two Kivus, North and South Kiva, which is 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:29.160 on the border with Rwanda, there's a large amount of 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:34.439 ethnic Tutsis, Congolese Tutsis. Yeah. There, I think what Rwanda 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.280 has always projected force into the Two Kivus and Katanga 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.400 because like literally that that's that's where the money is. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.160 Of course Rwanda would say they don't, but they are 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.200 actively supporting and emptry industry I don't have. Yeah, and 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.280 most of the twenty three certainly the leadership would be 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:58.560 ethnic Congolese Putsis. Yeah. So ostensibly I think the raison 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:03.200 deathstra for romanda involvement was to protect the ethnic Tutsis 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:08.079 from Hutus that had escaped from the from the genocide. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.400 So it's complicated, but if you kind of part those 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.240 complications and think of the money trail, it kind of 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.800 leads to the Two Kivus because seventy percent of the 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:25.800 world's cobalt, I think, is kind of located between the 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.920 Two Kivus. And then you have gold, diamonds, all the 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.760 other sort of rich minerals. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:33.880 Yeah, incredible wealth in Congo. 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:38.720 Yeah yeah, but I was reading that the estimated deposits 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.000 in eastern Congo it's something like twenty three trillion, Like 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:44.800 it's it's off the wall stuff. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:45.520 Yeah. 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:47.920 So it's no wonder it's become the battleground that it 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:52.040 has essentially since nineteen sixty because in nineteen sixty, after 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:58.280 getting independence, the Kivu and Katanga wanted to secede back 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.120 by belt and that's kind of what kicked off a 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.720 lot of the conflict in nineteen sixty, and the reverberations 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.280 from that are still are still kind of being felt 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.520 and been exploited because everyone wants to get a piece 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.600 of the action, like all the surrounding countries. So yeah, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.320 I see. I think it was yesterday that the they're 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.120 planning a meeting. I think it's this week or this 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.079 weekend to try and resolve the conflict. And this time 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.680 they're going to try and include enter twenty three in 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.720 the in the meeting rather than ex Google. I don't 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.400 think that the choice. I mean they're heading down to 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:30.960 book of use. 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:32.840 Yeah, I mean at twenty three have said that they're 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.880 going for sort of the whole country. Now that they're 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:36.960 not you know, it's not as not a regional or 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.240 like you know, ethnic movement so much as a and 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.439 they will M twenty three would say that they're not 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.800 like per se ethnic separatists, right, Like I think they 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.760 would claim that they're like a liberation of Congo force. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:54.000 And then you've Brundy supporting the Congolese government. You know 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.000 that there's all kinds as as you say, like regional 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.439 and international actors because of the wealth in Congo and 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.440 like let's can't go emerge from the DC emerged from 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:09.280 its colonial past, right, it's always been destabilized by these actors, 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.640 both regional and international, who wanted a piece of that 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.439 mineral wealth. And then they've created and sustained these differences 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.480 which have become I think there's some evidence to suggest 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.200 that like certainly they're like the ethnic differences have become 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.640 more pronounced and more like intransigent I suppose, or like, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:28.920 you know, it's become more difficult for those ethnic groups 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.480 to coexist over time due to decades of conflict, right 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:37.840 and killing, and it's a very difficult situation and it 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:42.520 leaves people like the civilians living in Goma today in 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.120 a terrible situation where I think this is the fifth 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.160 time that people have attacked Goma, Like it's certainly I 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.959 think the last time was about twenty twelve, was it 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.520 when the last time M twenty three took Goma. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.199 Yeah, and that's that's when the which we've probably just 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.760 got slater to the Force and Invention Brigade. Yeah, Goma 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:05.480 in twenty thirteen in a relatively har space of time. Yeah, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:07.800 compared to how long we took to more, they regained 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:08.480 it very quickly. 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.000 Yeah. So I think we break for adverts now. I'd 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.080 like to come back and discuss the Force Intovention Brigade 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.760 because I think it's something that people ought to understand 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:28.960 when we talk about peacekeeping. And we're back, okay, So yeah, 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.480 you mentioned the Force Intervention Brigade, which is something a 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.280 bit unique within peacekeeping, and there's a lot of like 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.680 when people talk about peacekeeping, they'll be like, oh, why 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.240 aren't they fighting? Why aren't they like going and stopping 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.480 the things? And I understand why people ask that. So 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.080 can you explain a little bit about what the FIB 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.120 was and what it did? 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.240 The concept of the Force Intervention Brigade was I think 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.080 to my knowledge it's the first yew Woe Me mission 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.240 that developed that concept. And they actually changed the mandate 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.280 to include an offense of capability for U and troops 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:07.120 as opposed to defensive or separation of war in factions. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:12.200 This was full on warfighter and what they had figured 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.920 out because the DRC is so big that the footprint, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.200 even with twenty thousand troops, the footprint on the ground 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.760 was not sufficient to would say, as I said, one 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.080 of the three pillars of an integratedmissions protection of civilians. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.560 And they were finding that very difficult. So they decided 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.240 to use a concept of protection by projection rather than 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.360 protection by presence. So not alone did they have the 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.640 Forceancry Brigade, they had the joint protection teams and also 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.480 an idea of a rapidly deployable battalion. So the idea 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.680 was that the Port and Diveention Brigade would say, do 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.960 the heavy lifting and then when hotspots that flare up, 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.840 they could choose either the rapidly deployed the battalions or 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.160 the joint protection teams. So the idea is that rather 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.560 than having static positions trying to protect people. They would 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.840 go where the action was. That was the idea. And 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:13.160 in fairness, the FIB had artillery, martors, snipers, attack helicopters, 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.800 U have these special forces. They retook Gum and I 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.880 don't know the exact timeframe, but I think it was 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.760 less than a month. One of the problems and I 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.520 think we touched on at the last time we spoke, 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.640 and I think this is a specific problem to the 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.560 how the FIB didn't really keep going the way it 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.880 should have is that two of the main TCCs were 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.240 Tanzania and South Africa, and they would have had slightly 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.800 different agendas in terms of who they should and they 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:51.280 shouldn't attack based on the government's position sorrue true country 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:52.720 in the countries. Excuse me, I should have said that. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.200 Yeah, yeah, sea of acronyms here. I've tried to avoid 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.960 all the these faction acronyms, but yeah, yeah, explain that 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.960 a bit, because when people think of the UN or 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.640 in peacekeepers or troop contributing countries, the only time it 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.000 comes on the news in sort of the global north 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.680 is when people from say Northern Europe or North America 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.600 are part of these UN peacekeeping missions. So they think 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.880 of people British troops, American and Canadian what have you, 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.760 in their blue helmets. Right that the vast bulk of 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.800 TCC's don't come from from Northern Europe, right, they're in Africa. 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.920 The majority of TCC's or other African countries. I think 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:34.120 I'm right saying it's a majority. 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:39.600 Yeah, Like like here here in in suth Sudan, most 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:47.680 of the big battalions are Wanda, Nepal, Mongolia, China generally speaking, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.360 in my experience in the Central African Republic and here 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.000 a lot of the battalions come from Africa, which which 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.160 is fair enough. I mean it's it's their continent. Yeah, 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.720 and they should have they should of a stake in 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:06.040 trying to faster piece and develop peace and help countries 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.600 in less or more dire situations than they themselves perhaps are. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:16.000 So it's I understand your point about about different countries 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.120 being aware of what the UN does based on I take, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.320 for instance, everyone in Ireland knows about the UN, and 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.160 they know about the Irish and Lebanon, and in Syria 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.880 and in Africa. I'm sure in the United Kingdom, because 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.840 you've got a very small UN footprint. Yeah, Cyprus been one, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.879 and there's a few of you guys here, generally people 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.280 in the UK, I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.639 me on this. Wouldn't have the exact same intimate knowledge 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.280 or even interest in the UN because basically they don't 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.640 have a big footprint, deployable footprint. 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:48.920 Yeah. Yeah, and it's the same with the United States. 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.280 I think it's not something that people think about for 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.280 the most part, and so like that's this question of 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.000 like why doesn't the UN. Certainly I think when people 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.240 saw what happened recently in Lebanon, they were like, why 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.119 are these peacekeepers? You know where you had these peacekeepers 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.360 And we spoke about this in our last episode, right 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.879 being shelled being shot at. You know, the people were 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.520 asking why they weren't out there fighting and there are 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.840 a lot of reasons for that, one being that's not 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.400 what they're there to do. But yeah, when we had 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.760 this Force Intervention Brigade in Congo, they did some good things, right, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.640 they were able to retake Goma, and for the people 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.560 who lived in Gomer, I'm sure that was very important, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.600 like that meaningfully improved their lives. But like it also 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.920 comes with these complications that you've addressed, right, Like each 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:36.600 of those those troop contributing countries, you need everyone to 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.080 be committed to like the same mission, I suppose, and 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.280 like if your government is giving your armed forces one 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.440 mission that differs slightly from that which the whoever's in 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.800 commanded the force into venture brigade hats, then we get friction, right, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.399 or it's not as efficient as it could be. 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.159 Yeah, I think I'm sure I mentioned just when we 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:01.479 last spoke. It's one thing developing a robust mandate, But 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.800 if the if the TCCs don't want to have the skills, 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.320 the experience, the training, the equipment, or the will to 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.280 enforce the robust nature of that mandate, well then the 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:15.920 mandate isn't really worth anything, you know. So it's it's 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:20.200 kind of like, Yes, the FIB was extremely effected for 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.639 a while until it wasn't. Now whether that was a 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.080 lack of will on the TCCs or on New York 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:33.560 or mission leadership, I have no idea, but it was 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.920 a great idea and it worked and then it didn't work. 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:38.439 Yeah. 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:40.960 Plus the fact that the DOC wanted the mission to 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:46.160 downsize and eventually leave that added to the should should 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:47.879 we really invest in something when we're going to pull 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.640 out because the country doesn't want to hear it anymore, 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:53.800 which is again as a fair point. 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.920 Yeah right, No one wants foreign troops in their country, right, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.760 you know, walking around, especially you know, engaging their owns. 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.879 It's but I mean, it's interesting. I was watching a 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.920 speaks the current president of the DRC, Felix TOSHISAKEDI. I've 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.399 tried my best to pronounce it correctly. It's not that disrespect. 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.159 He was saying that the international community is bordering on 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.000 complicit in M twenty three's advance because of the failure 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:18.720 to do anything about it, in a speech he gave 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.880 this week. And it was interesting because it had previously been, 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.960 like you said, for under very understandable reasons, especially in 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:30.160 the DRC, which has this long and horrible history of colonialism, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:34.399 like the terrible things done in the Belgian Congo. We've 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.240 covered those a lot on Bastardsen now the show that 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:37.840 we do, people can listen to that if they want to. 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.240 But now he's asking for more help, which is also 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:45.280 understandable because you know, his military is one hundred and 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.120 twenty five thousand or so, like and a large number 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:53.760 of that it's not very combat effective forces maybe, and 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.280 they've just been overrun in Gourma, in a big city, 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.639 a city of a million people. So, like, where do 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:06.119 you think we go from here? What's like, We're at 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:08.760 a very unique time in world history in which the 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.960 United States is it's doing some things with this foreign policy. 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.360 I mean, I don't I won't really mince words about 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:20.160 anything's terrible. But if we talk about like USAID, right 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.560 I was speaking to people on the Thai Burmese border 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.359 last week who were telling me that USAID has turned 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:29.400 off life support machines as part of its draw down 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.080 and that people obviously directly died as a result of 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.600 that there. So the US is not necessarily averse to 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.960 having terrible consequences to its whatever it's trying to do 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.920 right now, which I don't really have a good word for. 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:45.760 So where do we go from here? With the US 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:47.399 becoming more isolationists. 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:51.560 Well, let's discuss for a few minutes the alternatives to 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:54.760 UN peace keep ye, And there's a lot of them 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.600 here in Africa. So you have the South African Development Community, 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:05.080 the East African community, there was an African Union stroke 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:09.000 UN hybrid mission and therefore UNIMIT which is closing. There 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.200 was an AU mission in Somalia. There is the Lake 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.439 Chad base in Multinational Task Force, there's the Group of 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.840 Five for the Sahel. Then you had EU four which 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.720 was an EU force in Chad and in Mali and 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.720 subsequently became miner cat in Chad and Minusna and Mali. 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.560 Then you have the EUTM mission in Mali which I 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.480 was part of at one stage, and another one in Socenaria. 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:40.960 And of course we have our mercenaries, you know, and 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:42.960 when it emerged that there was over three hundred of 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.960 them allowed into Rwanda, I was reading the report that 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:48.879 they were getting something like three and a half thousand 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:54.359 dollars a month, whereas the DRC soldiers were getting maybe 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.520 three hundred dollars a month. Yeah, you know, and these 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.520 guys were brought in to protect the mines because again 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:00.520 they goes back to money. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.200 Yeah yeah, yeah, pactal resources, not people. That's a different thing. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.840 So what if those like those African led peacekeeping missions 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.880 look like like you talked about these various like international 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.919 and regional groups. 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:20.200 I think it's it's certainly worth a try because dun 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.119 hasn't the ability, not indeed the money, I presume to 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:28.000 keep doing these large, big missions. At one stage, the 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.359 three largest missions were MENUSCO, which were discussing MINUSCA and 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.720 the Central African Republic, and MINUSMA, which was in Mali. 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:39.160 Mali's gone. DRC is on the drawdown. Central African Republic 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:43.440 is still there, but I've noticed I spent four years there, 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:45.399 and obviously I have a keen interest in the place, 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:50.159 but there has been a big increase in anti anti 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:54.280 French with a Francophone country. Yeah, Antry French and linked 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:58.560 with a kind of an anti UN sentiment. No, the 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.399 special advisor to the President is from Russia. Vaguer. You 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:04.840 had a big part to play when I was there. 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:07.960 The were key players. Yeah. Most likely they're interlinked. 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:10.000 Yeah, I mean, and they've done some things which are 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.159 horrific in terms. We've covered that as well with the 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:14.640 print Derma on the show. I did want to talk 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:18.040 about this because the US is talking about withdrawing its 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:21.000 sort of what we call like soft power assets right 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:24.160 around the world, and I saw, like I forget who 0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:26.480 it was saying, like, oh, let the chips fall where 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:28.800 they may. It's very obvious where the chips will fall 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.000 in this part of the world. Right, Like when I 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:35.080 was in Rwanda, every fancy road in Rwanda they call 0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:38.000 them Chinese roads because they go from the mind to 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:38.560 the airport. 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:40.080 Ye belt embraces Yep. 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:43.080 It's as naked a resource extraction project as you'll see 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.160 right now. China also does a soft power thing. They'll 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:50.480 build hospitals and these. You know, I forget where the 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:53.200 quote comes from, but like every time the US comes, 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:54.879 we get a lecture, and every time China comes, we 0:24:54.920 --> 0:25:01.879 get a hospital. This will reorient the way these countries, 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:05.480 specifically in Africa, associate with the world. Right with the 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:09.959 US drawdown and the United Nations not capable or willing 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:15.399 of sort of doing these massive peacekeeping missions. And I 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:18.439 think for very understandable reasons groups out the EU. You know, 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:21.879 it's best not to have large deployment to European en 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:25.160 forces in Africa for reasons that are probably quite obvious. 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:28.360 So like, yeah, we were likely to see I mean, 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:32.120 hasn't Wagner rebranded itself as the Africa Core Now. 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:36.679 Yeah, I'm not sure who's running at no, but I'm 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:41.000 sure the strings are being more closely pulled by by 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.840 Putin as opposed to having very loose control when precaution 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:49.199 was there. Yeah, yeah, it was given him like a 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:53.639 standoff capability. Was right, This is just a PMC, nothing 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:57.040 to do with me. Yeah, But I would imagine after 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:00.280 his drive to Moscow and a subsequent to my I'm 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:03.400 sure that whoever is running the Africa core is much 0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:06.800 more tightly controlled by the criminal I would. I would imagine. 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:09.719 Yeah, it's like a britishis India Company kind of model, 0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:12.800 like a sort of proxy colonialism, but very tight. Like 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:15.240 you say, it's just almost just like a different badge 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:27.480 on the same thing there. I think this is one 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:29.240 of the things that won't get talked about in the 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:31.560 next four years because the US media will talk about 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:33.720 the US a lot. Again, I mean they always do. 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:36.480 But I think people should be concerned about this, about 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:42.320 the future for like multinational peacekeeping in Africa, and more importantly, 0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:45.040 I guess the future for Interlink without the future for 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:48.080 human rights in Africa. What do you see as like 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:52.399 meaningful ways that people can advocate for a future for 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:56.720 Africa which is not just another set of countries extracting 0:26:56.760 --> 0:26:59.480 resources and leaving very little for the people there, Which 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:02.560 is something that has happened. You know, I'm British best, 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:04.239 and this has happened by British people for a very 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:06.440 long time and other European people for a very long time. 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:09.680 But like that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:11.000 stop it happening in the future. 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:18.639 That's a difficult one to answer, because ideally African problems should, 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:23.119 in my opinion, be solved by African nations. Yeah, and 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:24.879 that's the reason that the African Union and all these 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:29.240 other ones that I mentioned I think are an attempt 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:35.520 to do that. Yeah. And certainly Europe and the US 0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:41.560 shouldn't be dictating how Africans government themselves. They should be 0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:46.680 assisting in good governance, good policing, good judiciary. But it 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:49.560 kind of goes back to money again, because there's so 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.439 much of a vested interest. I heard a figure that 0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:55.520 twenty three were getting eight hundred thousand dollars a month 0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:59.520 from some of the mines in the Kivus. Yeah, I 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:02.760 can believe we'll get that kind of money floating around 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:07.160 a lot of people maybe don't want to sort things out. Yeah, 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:11.199 and it may suit to leave the mayhem there and 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:13.240 use all these artisanal miners who are getting paid a 0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:16.760 couple of cents a day and Wonder has just got 0:28:16.760 --> 0:28:19.840 a big contract with the EU in terms of diamonds. 0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:21.960 Yeah, I mean that is the thing, right, we can 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:26.720 tell where this stuff comes from. There is a means 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:30.040 to try and limit the amount of these resources which 0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:32.160 you can leave conflict zones in a way which benefits 0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:36.920 beligerent parties. It's where the markets for those resources are 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:37.880 willing to do it, right. 0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:41.320 Yeah, And everyone has mistaken the point, whether it's the 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:44.240 overseer of the mind, whether it's the company that owns 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:48.240 the mind, whether it's the people that move the product 0:28:48.400 --> 0:28:53.080 from Kivu into someone neighboring country, and then ultimately the 0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:58.480 people that buy it commercially in Western Europe or around 0:28:58.520 --> 0:28:59.200 the rest of the world. 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.960 Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's not you know, people think 0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:05.000 of diamonds a lot, and I think people that there's 0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:07.280 been a kind of movement to purchase diamonds which you're 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:10.160 ethically sourced, or to just not use diamonds, to sort 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:13.200 of move away from them as like a store of value. 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:17.200 But it's also the parts in your mobile phone, isn't it. 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:20.360 It's not you know, it's not just like fancy engagement rings. 0:29:20.160 --> 0:29:22.840 Because this is a chain you wanted to be over 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:27.040 the price for more ethical mining methods most people probably own. 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:30.200 Yeah, that's the thing, right, and especially when it's out 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:34.000 of sight, out of mind for most people, even compared 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:40.000 to you know, we obviously genocide Palestinian people or the 0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:43.120 you know, when we think about these other atrostees, right, 0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:46.440 like those have not remained out of sight out of 0:29:46.480 --> 0:29:51.840 mind because they're visible in people's social media, because you know, 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:55.040 people in Palestine have phones and they can film, and 0:29:55.360 --> 0:29:59.040 like that's I think meaningfully changed the way. Like I 0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:04.120 wouldn't have thought American people would care about Palestinian people. 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:06.680 I moved here in two thousand and eight, and you 0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:09.280 wouldn't have found much interest in Palestine. 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:11.880 You wouldn't have expected them to promote that cleansing of 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:12.560 Guz Yeah, I. 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:14.520 Know you well, you wouldn't have expected that either. But 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:20.800 the movement like to support Palestinian people from the grassroots 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:23.760 and then also the other government doing the exact opposite. 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:26.080 You know, it's come from the bottom up. It hasn't 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.480 come from like government advocacy. But we don't see that 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.280 as much with certainly this part of Africa, right, Like 0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:35.160 and it's exposed. It's to contro it's coins of like 0:30:35.200 --> 0:30:39.400 people in Congo maybe aren't able to access those global 0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:43.560 networks of like social media and maybe to share their stories, 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.120 you know. And I think it's also a consequence of 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:49.160 us in the media not reporting at all, you know, 0:30:49.240 --> 0:30:51.880 Like I've for years tried to sell stories about Africa 0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:56.520 to American publications and at best they'll want a story 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:59.479 about like the people who are starting like social enterprise, 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:03.200 European North American people starting like social enterprises or like 0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:08.000 sort of beneficial companies. And I understand it's have a role, 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:10.800 but like, you're not going to persuade me that there 0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:14.000 is a single African person of interest to you, and 0:31:14.040 --> 0:31:16.560 that like it's someone who came from North America, that 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:20.040 it's the only relevant story to tell in Africa. And 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:22.680 like I've had this falling out with so many editors 0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:25.080 over the years that like, no, I don't want to 0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:26.640 tell that story. I want to tell a story about 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:30.440 people from Congo and Congo, about people from Rwanda and Rwanda. 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:32.640 I live in the town towards the west coast of Ireland, 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:35.280 and there's a guy from there. What I'll do is 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:38.680 I'll send you a link. Yeah. Yeah, but he's passionate 0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:45.040 about getting free education in Africa between online courses and 0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:49.080 online libraries. Obviously, the more education you get, the better 0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:52.040 chance you have of having a better life. So yeah, 0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:53.840 I think of some sulf and I'll send an auntie 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:56.400 and then you can figure out whether it'll be an 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.840 interesting topic or whatever. But I just literally as we were, 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:02.720 I was thinking of how one guy is trying to 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:06.560 change conditions for younger people in Africa and trying to 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:07.640 give it to them for free. 0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:11.160 That's it. Yeah, that's the key is like people doing it. 0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:13.120 One of the things that people did which I thought 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:16.360 was really great as an example as a model, is 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:20.800 from October about October the tenth of twenty twenty three. 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:24.360 I suppose people weren't going to school or university in Gaza, 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:27.880 and very quickly there weren't any universities in Gaza because 0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:31.480 they all got bombed. Right, the colleagues of mine in 0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:37.520 academic departments started putting on seminars and lectures that Palestinian people, 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:39.920 be they displaced or still in Gaza, but with access 0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:42.440 to internet, you know, it's still displaced, but internally displaced 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:46.720 could attend and continue with their educations. And I thought 0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:49.920 that was a really great, like solidarity based way to 0:32:50.040 --> 0:32:53.120 facilitate access to something that people have had taken away 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:55.480 from them through no fault they were by state aggression. 0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:56.440 Yeah. 0:32:56.480 --> 0:32:59.920 Absolutely, Yeah, there's a model for that. I mean, colonial 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:02.120 has done many terrible things, but it's given us a 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:05.000 common language with a lot of our African friends. You know, 0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:08.200 you speak French and English, you can do quite well. 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:11.880 So like, yeah, there are things available, and I wish 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.840 people would I don't think people should stop caring about Palestine, 0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:17.080 of course I don't, but I do wish they would 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:20.640 care more about people in Africa too, because like, they 0:33:20.640 --> 0:33:23.280 don't deserve this any more than anyone else. 0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:26.600 I was born in nineteen sixty when the first mission 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:31.719 went to the Congo. Yeah, and it's been going on, 0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:36.240 like I'm sixty four, it's been around sixty four years. Yeah, 0:33:36.400 --> 0:33:41.080 so no more than the problem with the Palestinians. I 0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:44.480 think some people, unless you have a specific interest in 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:47.960 it or feel passionate about it, a lot of people 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:50.480 just I think true note and to go to the 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:54.760 next pronouncement from the White House, you know, clickbit. Yeah, 0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:58.960 So I think it's a sad fact, but it's the 0:33:59.040 --> 0:33:59.800 factor I think. 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.400 Yeah, yeah, it's a shame. And like, you know, if 0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:05.080 there's one thing I'd like to do with my career, 0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:07.280 I'd like to spend more time in that part of 0:34:07.280 --> 0:34:10.960 the world and do more reporting. And I think we 0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:14.680 could do a lot with as a media with just 0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:17.040 explaining how life is for everyday people, because people think 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.879 about Congo in terms of yeah, the M twenty three 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:23.239 in the conglese government and the who too, militias and 0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:25.120 this and that, but the vast majority of people are 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:27.399 just trying to get on with their day. You know, 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:29.960 they want a better future for their children. Yeah, and 0:34:30.920 --> 0:34:32.759 you know the fact that your mobile phone it's cheap, 0:34:32.760 --> 0:34:35.000 it's maybe making their children's future worse. And that's something 0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:36.160 that we need to reckon with. 0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:37.759 And E cares. 0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:39.919 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean this is the thing people 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:42.640 and talk about electric cars. It's so as weird. It's 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:46.040 all that stuff come and then even here in America 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:48.520 right whether the US trying to mind lithium on reservations 0:34:48.560 --> 0:34:50.640 where you know, the land there's little land it's left 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:52.600 indigenous people to have sovereignty on. It's where it's now 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:56.960 trying to do this very invasive form of mining. Kevin, 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.440 You've written a book, so would you like to as 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:01.320 we wind down here, do you want to explain a 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:03.279 little bit about about your books so that people are 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:05.880 interested in your life and your time as a peacekeeper 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:06.879 and an archaeologist. 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.319 Okay, So what started off as a lockdown project when 0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:14.800 COVID hit back in the day, I decided I would 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:17.520 write an account of my weird of wonderful life for 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:21.200 my just from my family, and don't you start writing 0:35:21.360 --> 0:35:24.760 as you're no doubt where you start remembering. And suddenly 0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:26.560 I was at something like a hundred thousand words, and 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:28.000 I thought, right, there might be a book in this. 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:34.000 And I know, obviously I'm opinionating about my own book naturally, 0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:36.920 but it's not just a book about some random military 0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:41.720 guy waffling on about his military career. I've a separate 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:44.680 career in mountaineering and kind of a nearly separate career 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:50.040 in archaeology, So it's it's a mixture of soldiering, mountaineering 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:52.719 and archaeology. As someone said it to me, it's a 0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:56.520 bit like Chris Bonnington meets Bert Grills meets Indiana Jones, 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:01.480 which is weird and wonderful way to do so. The 0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:04.759 title of the book is a Lifeless Ordinary, which this 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:07.799 was a recruiting slogo in the nineteen nineties for the 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:09.080 for the Irish Defense Forces. 0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:09.840 Oh, I didn't know that. 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.040 I think. I think I'll sent you the link. Yeah, yeah, 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:16.239 if not, I'll do it, yeah, immediately. So all your 0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:18.719 viewers can order the book. You can only get it 0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:22.719 online at the publishers. It's not on Amazon unfortunately. Yeah. 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:26.839 Well maybe maybe fell the best given the way tech 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:29.400 people are playing the US economy. Yeah, you can. You 0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:30.920 can get it online. You can get it sent to 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.520 the United States if you interest date I did. Thank 0:36:33.560 --> 0:36:35.880 you so much for your time, Kevin. You're insights today. 0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:38.440 I know we really appreciate it. Is there anywhere else 0:36:38.440 --> 0:36:40.560 if people want to follow you online? Aside from the book? 0:36:40.800 --> 0:36:42.400 The book is probably the best one. What is probably 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:44.000 the best way to get in comment? I'm on LinkedIn 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:48.560 and yeah, the normal stuff. Just google Kevin McDonald and 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:51.520 I should I should come up. I was resisting for 0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:55.520 years and years, and eventually I googled Kevin McDonald and 0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:58.759 I was surprised at the amount of Kevin McDonald's There 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:01.680 is a famous American actor writing called Kevin McDonald. Yeah, 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.920 but I just as a small party shot when when 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:10.480 I was in Mali, I was researching the archaeology of 0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:16.760 Mali and the world expert on Melaye archaeology is a professor, naturally, 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:21.040 Kevin mac donald. So I sent him an am here 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:24.320 and I said, by the way, I'm also an archaeologist, 0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:27.160 and my name is Kevin McDonald, and he goes my word, 0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:30.960 I'd be in Bangi or in Bamaco in two weeks time. 0:37:31.000 --> 0:37:31.640 Let's meet up. 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:35.239 So the two Kevin McDonald's, two archaeologists met up in 0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:37.719 Bama cup to discuss archaeology. 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:39.399 So that's nice when these things kept again. 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:41.080 Another one of my word and wonderful stories. 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:43.600 Yeah yeah, well thanks so much for joining us to you, Kevin, 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:44.680 So it's nice to hear me. 0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:45.760 You're more than welcome. 0:37:45.800 --> 0:38:10.080 Jims, Hello, welcome to It could Happen Here a podcast 0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:12.719 about things falling apart and the people. 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:16.200 Trying to put them back together again. I am today's 0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:21.080 guest host, Margaret Kiljoy. Today is one of those episodes 0:38:21.120 --> 0:38:24.680 about people, well trying to put it back together again, 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:28.200 or I guess really an episode about people trying to 0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:33.040 stop them from making things fall apart, because today I'm 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:35.200 going to talk a little bit about the fight against 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:41.000 the Mountain Valley natural Gas pipeline. Last Tuesday, February twenty fifth, 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.920 twenty twenty five, the last criminal trials from the campaign 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:49.879 to stop the Mountain Valley pipeline were held in Parisburg, Virginia. 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:51.960 As you might have guessed based on the fact that 0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:56.280 you've never heard of Parisburg, Virginia, it's a tiny town 0:38:56.680 --> 0:39:00.520 nestled in the Appalachian Mountains. It's also the seat of 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:04.400 Giles County, Virginia, and it the town is home to 0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:08.040 almost three thousand people. It's in the southwest of the state, 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.920 right up against West Virginia. Culture and geography, of course, 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:15.960 both reject things like state lines. The governments are obsessed 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:19.400 with them. For ten years, the people of Central Appalachia, 0:39:19.520 --> 0:39:22.640 on both sides of the imaginary line, fought against this 0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:28.040 destructive pipeline. Their campaign tied nonviolent direct action with lawsuits 0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:32.480 and public pressure campaigns, and they very nearly won. It 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:35.239 took backdoor dealings at the highest level of power to 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:39.480 force the pipeline's construction, with West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:44.400 holding twenty twenty three's Inflation Reduction Act hostage until President 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:48.960 Biden personally guaranteed that the pipeline would be constructed, overriding 0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:52.719 all of the courts, activists, and locals who blocked it 0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:58.320 along the way. Essentially, the ostensible Democrat Joe Manchin said, fine, 0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:01.239 I'll vote for your climate bill, but only if you 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:05.760 fuck over the state that I represent. The pipeline, owned 0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:09.480 by Mountain Valley Pipeline LLC, was supposed to be built 0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:13.120 in a year. Thanks to the campaign against it, it 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:15.840 took six and a half years to build. It was 0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:20.240 intended to cost the company three billion dollars. It costs 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:23.799 them more than twice that, which is not bad for 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:27.480 a scrappy movement of mountain people, hippies, and punks. It's 0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:30.200 not bad for a bunch of grandma's and college kids. 0:40:30.880 --> 0:40:33.279 I'll be covering the full campaign in more details soon 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:36.520 on cool people who did cool stuff. This podcast is 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:41.200 instead about the trials. Twelve defendants went before the court 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:45.600 that day, eleven of them facing felonies and serious prison time. 0:40:46.000 --> 0:40:48.080 In the end, none of them were sentenced to time 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:51.359 behind bars. I am happy to say a friend of 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:55.080 mine invited me down to cover the trials twelve defendants, 0:40:55.120 --> 0:40:57.040 all in the same day, all in the same courtroom, 0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:00.880 with the same judge. I said, yes, West Virginia is 0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:03.440 a bigger state than its own map would indicate because 0:41:03.680 --> 0:41:05.799 there aren't freeways that run through it, so it takes 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:09.080 a very long time to get anywhere. So I packed 0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:12.719 up my van and headed down on Monday night. That night, 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:16.000 sleeping in my van, I had a stress dream about 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:19.040 court where I'd forgotten to take off my knife before 0:41:19.040 --> 0:41:22.000 going through the metal detectors, and spent a very long 0:41:22.080 --> 0:41:25.000 time talking to various cops about who I was and 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:28.320 why I was there, before being stuck outside the courthouse 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:31.160 and a large crowd of protesters surrounded by a large 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:34.759 crowd of cops. In that dream, someone who wasn't on 0:41:34.840 --> 0:41:38.319 either side stood up to give a speech, but too 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:41.400 near an open flame in his clothes caught fire. Us 0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:44.400 anarchists again, I'm talking about my dream here. Aus Anarchist 0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:46.279 rushed to help him while the cops stared on with 0:41:46.320 --> 0:41:49.040 blank stairs. We beat out the flames and held his 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.520 burned body while the cops stared on with blank stairs. 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:55.400 We screamed for someone to call an ambulance while the 0:41:55.440 --> 0:42:00.239 cops stared on with blank stairs. I like when my 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:04.080 dreams lend themselves to obvious symbolism in this moment where 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:06.399 the apparatus of the state is content to let all 0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:09.520 of us burn, whether in the fires of fascism or 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:14.200 the fires of climate change. But I woke up disturbed nonetheless, 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:17.279 with the sun barely over the horizon. I ate a 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:19.480 quick breakfast, and I drove the rest of the way 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:23.400 up to the actual courthouse and the actual trial. Fortunately, 0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:27.040 at the actual thing, no one caught fire. I parked 0:42:27.040 --> 0:42:29.719 on a nearby street and made my way to the courthouse. 0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.240 It didn't accidentally bring a pocket knife, which is easy 0:42:33.280 --> 0:42:34.920 for me to do since I usually have three on 0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:38.360 me because I am a totally normal human. I did, though, 0:42:38.800 --> 0:42:42.800 bring an audio recorder, which was equally forbidden in the courtroom. 0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:45.360 I went through the metal detector and surrendered my little 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:48.920 bag with the Zoom recorder. Later, press came into the 0:42:48.960 --> 0:42:51.040 room and I tried to get my recorder back, but 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:55.120 I was told that's real media. Without a press badge, 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:58.279 I don't look much like someone who works for iHeart. 0:42:58.840 --> 0:43:01.480 I settled into a seat and waited for the proceedings. 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:05.680 Eco defendants and ECO defenders both poured into the tiny, 0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:09.400 dingy courtroom. The ceiling had holes in it, the drywall 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:14.040 was sagging. Appalachia isn't extracted from region. A place from 0:43:14.040 --> 0:43:17.280 which wealth is gathered, not a place where wealth goes. 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:21.680 We were reminded repeatedly that the fire code limited occupancy 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:24.680 of the roomed eighty nine people, and it sure seemed 0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:26.920 like they brought in as many cops as they could 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:32.080 to limit our numbers. Many more supporters waited outside. Most 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:34.799 of what I did that day was weight in the courtroom, 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:38.000 because most of the courtroom drama was happening behind closed 0:43:38.000 --> 0:43:41.680 doors as the prosecutor, the judge, and the aid or 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:44.920 so defense attorneys all argued and fought over the details 0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:49.120 of plea deals. Most of these characters, judge, prosecutor, and 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:52.400 lawyers were quite familiar to the people working with the movement. 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:55.359 This was the last trial of many throughout the ten 0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:58.920 year campaign, which has relied heavily on non violent direct 0:43:58.960 --> 0:44:03.000 action since twenty eighteen. The prosecutor, in particular, a guy 0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:07.200 named Bobby Lilly, was a well known figure. Usually, when 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:11.359 people say things like the prosecutor was a clown. They're 0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:16.520 speaking figuratively, but Bobby Lilly, the prosecutor, is a balloon 0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:19.399 artist in his free time, and his Facebook is full 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:22.920 of photos of all of his balloon creations. The rumor 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:26.680 is that he clowned his way through law school, all right, Which, look, 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:29.680 if I wasn't predisposed to not like this man because 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:31.880 he was arguing for the imprisonment of people trying to 0:44:31.880 --> 0:44:34.160 save all life on earth, I would kind of think 0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:37.360 that's cool. But it does mean that there was a 0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:40.920 clown prosecution. And some people who were there to support 0:44:40.920 --> 0:44:44.680 the defendants wore balloon animal hats to mock Bobby Lily, 0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:47.439 though they were forced to leave those hats outside as 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:51.000 no hats of any kind were allowed in the courtroom. 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:54.040 Coming in that morning, we expected most of the defendants 0:44:54.080 --> 0:44:56.719 to take non cooperating plea deals they'd already agreed to. 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:00.880 Non Cooperating plea deals are deals in which the defendant 0:45:01.200 --> 0:45:05.759 refuses to cooperate with the state's investigation of other protesters. Basically, 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:09.520 this means these are non snitching deals. A few of 0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:12.440 the defendants, though we're ready to take their cases to trial, 0:45:13.400 --> 0:45:16.600 I've decided to largely not use people's names in this reporting. 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:19.920 Those names are a matter of public record, of course, 0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:23.680 but we are entering unprecedented times, and I don't see 0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:26.480 any particular advantage in making their names more public than 0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:28.880 they already are. But do you know what I do 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:32.720 want to make public the sweet sweet deals offered by 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:39.400 our advertisers. I love making those public. Here they are, 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:53.000 and we're back. The charges against the defendants seem politically motivated. 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:56.440 This isn't to say the defendants might not have walked 0:45:56.480 --> 0:46:00.440 onto pipeline work sites and disrupted activity. There certainly a 0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:04.360 coordinated campaign to do just that, but the charges against 0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:08.080 them were artificially inflated. I was talking to a supporter 0:46:08.280 --> 0:46:11.040 during one of the many long interludes in the proceedings 0:46:11.640 --> 0:46:15.000 who explained to me that nearly everyone on trial that day, 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:17.960 and a large percentage of all defendants throughout the course 0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:21.960 of the campaign, were charged with felony misuse of a 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:27.040 motor vehicle aka joy riding. To be clear, no one 0:46:27.040 --> 0:46:30.680 has been accused of hijacking construction equipment and riding it around. 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:34.480 It's just one of the many charges levied at protesters 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:37.759 in order to get their bail denied or inflated to 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:41.440 tie everyone up in legal proceedings for longer, and intimidate 0:46:41.480 --> 0:46:45.240 people into pleting guilty to lesser charges. These are similar 0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:47.960 to the kidnapping charges that a lot of protesters got 0:46:48.000 --> 0:46:52.360 as well, despite that, well, no one was kidnapped during 0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:56.080 the course of the campaign, except, of course, by the state. 0:46:57.400 --> 0:47:01.000 Another supporter explained to me, inflated arges has been part 0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:04.759 of the Mountain Valley Pipeline's legal strategy all along, the 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:07.640 same as protesters look to tie the pipeline company up 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:12.200 in court and delay construction, MVP's strategy seems to have 0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:15.080 been to drag out court cases and keep as many 0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:18.360 individual force defenders caught up in legal jeopardy as possible. 0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:23.680 Of course, they shouldn't actually have the means to change 0:47:24.000 --> 0:47:27.359 people's charges. But if the fight against MVP has taught 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:30.560 us anything it's that the state caves to business interests 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:35.040 every time. Most defendants from the course of the campaign 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:38.719 have taken pleas that include suspended sentences so that they 0:47:38.880 --> 0:47:41.040 never do jail time as long as they promise to 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:44.760 never try to save the world from fossil fuel infrastructure. 0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:48.960 It seems like MVP wants each person who catches charges 0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:52.319 to be out of the fight. But fortunately Frontline's work 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:54.480 is only a portion of the work involved in defending 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:58.480 the earth. When someone told me that this was MVP's 0:47:58.520 --> 0:48:02.800 strategy to catch everyone up on charges, I wasn't really 0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:06.560 skeptical because it made sense, but I still had that 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:10.359 confirmed for me in the courtroom. You see, a few 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:13.640 lawyers or other legal representatives of MVP were present in 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:16.600 the courtroom that day, standing at the back of the room, 0:48:16.920 --> 0:48:18.920 seemingly eves dropping on the courtroom. 0:48:19.000 --> 0:48:19.320 Chatter. 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:21.799 Word on the street was that part of their goal 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.480 was to gather information for the ongoing civil litigation happening 0:48:25.520 --> 0:48:30.000 against environmentalists. But eves dropping goes both ways, and one 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.960 supporter I talked to overheard them talking to each other 0:48:33.040 --> 0:48:35.799 about how they wish they could drag these cases out 0:48:36.000 --> 0:48:40.759 even longer. Once court began, defendants went up one by 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:45.200 one before the judge. Most entered pleas of not guilty 0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:49.080 with stipulation. This is, in essence, a way to accept 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:53.080 a plea agreement without actually accepting guilt. So each person 0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:56.400 went up pleaded not guilty with stipulation, and then was 0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:58.239 found guilty by the judge. 0:48:57.920 --> 0:48:59.120 On their lesser charges. 0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:02.960 The process took three to six minutes per defendant. 0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:04.080 I tracked it. 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:08.480 The defendants were there for arrests stemming from actions that 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:12.600 happened between October twenty twenty three and March twenty twenty four, 0:49:13.320 --> 0:49:17.319 from three different actions, all on nearby Peters Mountain, a 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:20.840 mountain which sits on the horizon of Parrisburg, Virginia, and 0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:24.959 which defies the border between Virginia and West Virginia. Most 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:28.200 of the action from the campaign happened on either Peters 0:49:28.200 --> 0:49:33.239 Mountain or another mountain in another county, Poor Mountain. One 0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:36.399 action in October twenty twenty three, like I said, court 0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:39.080 has been dragged out for a very long time, was 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:41.680 an action in which one person locked themselves to an 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:45.440 excavator while others were there in support. The supporters of 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:48.920 the action were facing felonies too. Some of them a 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:52.120 while back were re arrested at their own arraignments, given 0:49:52.160 --> 0:49:56.120 additional charges, and put into jail for days. It's not 0:49:56.239 --> 0:49:58.600 hard to imagine why the defendants were nervous in the 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:01.760 courtroom that day, even though most of them had already 0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:04.800 sorted out their plea agreements ahead of time. The state 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:09.960 is fickle, condescending, and unpredictable. One of the defendants that 0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:12.920 I talked to told me about their own case. The 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:16.360 evidence supporting the charges against pretty much everyone was weak, 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:19.640 but the evidence supporting the charges against this particular person 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:23.959 were particularly weak. The state kept offering this person plea 0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:27.640 deals before anyone else. Will you be offering the same 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:31.319 deal to my co defendants, the defendant kept asking. The 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:35.080 state kept saying no, so the defendant kept refusing the deal. 0:50:35.920 --> 0:50:39.080 That defendant came to court fully expecting to stand trial 0:50:39.760 --> 0:50:41.640 rather than take a better deal than what their co 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:45.160 defendants were getting. The big story of the day actually 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:48.080 revolves around that particular point. At least one of the 0:50:48.080 --> 0:50:51.080 defendants who came prepared to stand trial last Tuesday wound 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:54.160 up being offered much more generous plea agreements at the 0:50:54.200 --> 0:50:57.120 last minute because the state knew its case against them 0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:01.720 was flimsy. Those who accept at non cooperating plea deals 0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:06.880 were hit with suspended sentences, community service, and restitution. The 0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:10.200 details differed from case to case, but in general, people 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.920 were given a year in prison hanging over their heads 0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:15.120 if they're caught breaking the law in the next year, 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:18.000 and have to spend between fifty and one hundred hours 0:51:18.040 --> 0:51:21.719 doing manual labor for Giles County, Virginia. I've been told 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:24.960 this can range from something benign like painting murals to 0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:28.680 something intentionally humiliating, like cleaning the toilets. 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:29.080 At the police station. 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:34.760 The single biggest issue of contention was restitution. The defendants 0:51:34.800 --> 0:51:37.719 are being ordered to pay for the overtime costs associated 0:51:37.760 --> 0:51:41.600 with arresting them. One defendant, who was I believe, arrested 0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:44.719 at a mom's against the pipeline's action, a woman who 0:51:44.760 --> 0:51:46.800 simply wants her children to grow up in a world 0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:50.400 with a habitable ecosystem, was in court last Tuesday to 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:54.560 contest the restitution payments. This is, as I understand it, 0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:57.399 the only issue that was not fully resolved that day. 0:51:58.239 --> 0:52:00.920 The case the defense made was one that I found convincing, 0:52:01.040 --> 0:52:04.280 though of course I have a bias in that direction. Essentially, 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.759 the defense's case was that people are not legally on 0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:11.239 the hook for the investigation of their own crime, that 0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:13.880 it would set a very dangerous precedent to have people 0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:17.440 have to pay for the cops's time to arrest them. 0:52:17.800 --> 0:52:22.600 The prosecutor's argument was, and I rudely paraphrase here, yeah, 0:52:22.600 --> 0:52:25.680 but fuck these people in particular that because there was 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:28.840 a campaign against the MVP, their crimes ought to be 0:52:28.880 --> 0:52:31.400 treated differently, in the same standard of the rule of 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.680 law should not apply to them. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:37.040 that really was the takeaway that I seem to get. 0:52:37.760 --> 0:52:39.680 The judge said he would need to consider the case 0:52:39.760 --> 0:52:41.759 law on the matter and would not rule on it 0:52:41.760 --> 0:52:45.000 that day. But you know what he would have ruled 0:52:45.040 --> 0:52:47.759 on if he was the judge of this podcast. He 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:52.239 would have ruled that it is time for advertising. 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:02.640 And we're back. 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:06.920 The only case that actually went to trial, as I 0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:10.239 understand it, was for the only misdemeanor case of the day, 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:13.840 a protester who was accused and convicted later at the 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:16.640 end of the trial of spending a couple days living 0:53:16.680 --> 0:53:19.080 inside a length of pipe to prevent it from being 0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:22.520 buried in the earth. The full incompetence of the police 0:53:22.600 --> 0:53:25.279 was on display from the state trooper who didn't know 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:27.520 what the word diameter meant when asked to describe the 0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:30.319 pipeline in question, to the police, who admitted that they 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:33.359 didn't actually bother watching the entrance to the pipe, so 0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:36.440 they didn't actually see the protester when they emerged from 0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:39.600 the pipe. In court, the cop said the protester came 0:53:39.680 --> 0:53:43.040 up to them to turn themselves in and said, quote, well, 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:47.000 you're lucky, I'm honest. A large part of the defense's 0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:49.680 case was that the defendant had been denied the right 0:53:49.719 --> 0:53:53.480 to a speedy trial, which seems true to me. Misdemeanors 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:55.840 in particular are supposed to move through the court system quickly, 0:53:56.000 --> 0:53:59.440 not drag on for a year, because again, it seems 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:02.520 quite like that MVP has been working from the start 0:54:02.840 --> 0:54:06.799 to drag on court cases as long as possible. All 0:54:06.840 --> 0:54:09.520 the while the trial went on, supporters outside had a 0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:12.000 table set up in the parking lot with homemade food, 0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:14.680 a staple of this movement. As far as I can tell, 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:17.919 the connections between the front lines and their supporters built 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:22.080 a very strong movement. Indeed, after the trial, an older 0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:24.719 local man gave a heartfelt thank you to everyone who 0:54:24.719 --> 0:54:26.680 had put their bodies on the line to protect the 0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:30.000 mountains he loves. And I went around and talked to people, 0:54:30.600 --> 0:54:33.080 feeling a bit odd to be there as a stranger 0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:37.640 to the movement and as a journalist. Blocking pipeline construction 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:42.040 through nonviolent direct action is simple and principle, but complicated 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:44.960 in the details. The core of it is that you 0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:48.080 leverage your own safety in order to prevent construction crews 0:54:48.120 --> 0:54:51.480 from working. Since your own safety is what you're gambling with, 0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:56.040 it's well not safe the ideas you put your own 0:54:56.080 --> 0:54:59.800 body on the line. In nineteen ninety eight, for example, 0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:03.600 Earth First activist named David Chain died when a lagger 0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:06.840 dropped a tree on him and killed him, and despite 0:55:06.840 --> 0:55:09.480 ample evidence that the lagger in question had been aware 0:55:09.480 --> 0:55:12.760 of the protesters and had been threatening them, no charges 0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:16.239 were pressed against him. In two thousand and three, an 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:19.560 American anarchist piece worker named Rachel Corey was killed in 0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:21.960 the Gaza Strip when she stood in front of an 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.719 Israeli bulldozer trying to stop the bulldozer from demolishing a 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:29.879 Palestinian home. Even when you aren't murdered for doing it, 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:34.040 the work itself is dangerous too. Shortly before I joined 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:37.560 my first forest defense campaign in the Pacific Northwest, an 0:55:37.600 --> 0:55:40.480 activist named Whorhound had just fallen to her death from 0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:43.760 a tree sit and her absence was a tangible presence 0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:46.800 in every meeting and every forest defense camp for years after. 0:55:47.760 --> 0:55:50.799 So I don't feel like I'm speaking hyperbolically when I 0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:53.440 say that in that courtroom were some of the bravest 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:56.480 people I've ever met who risked their lives to stop 0:55:56.520 --> 0:56:00.560 a clear and present threat against it. And again genuinely 0:56:00.560 --> 0:56:03.760 believe this is not hyperbolic to say clear and present 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.319 threat against all life on Earth. Climate change could very 0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:11.239 easily destroy every ecosystem on the planet. This fight is 0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:15.440 bigger than Appalachia. These forest defenders at this last trial 0:56:16.040 --> 0:56:18.760 knew that they would likely face felonies where they arrested, 0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:21.239 and they knew that people have died doing this work 0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:24.240 before them. And I don't want to speak to everyone 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:27.319 involves gender identity, but it seems likely that some of 0:56:27.320 --> 0:56:30.560 them were trans as well, and thus risking spending prison 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:33.600 time in the wrong prisons, which is a particularly dangerous 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:36.359 position to be in. I don't say this to try 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:39.360 to scare people out of joining movements like this. I 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:42.719 can name people who have died in nonviolent direct action campaigns, 0:56:43.000 --> 0:56:46.600 and occasionally people have served real jail time, But I've 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:50.280 met thousands and thousands more who have saved wild places, 0:56:50.520 --> 0:56:53.719 who have built lifelong friendships, and who have proven to 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:56.879 themselves that they are who they hoped they would be. 0:56:58.200 --> 0:57:00.960 I want to end this by reading two statements. One 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:03.960 was written by one of the defendants and was posted 0:57:04.040 --> 0:57:07.840 onto the Ablachians Against Pipeline's Facebook page on March third. 0:57:08.280 --> 0:57:10.400 You can read the full statement over there if you'd like. 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:12.480 Quote. 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:16.560 Today we proved that co defendant solidarity works. We were 0:57:16.600 --> 0:57:19.640 able to see how different strategies against a stacked system 0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:22.240 play out. It is in the court's best interest for 0:57:22.320 --> 0:57:24.360 us to take a deal out of fear of trial, 0:57:24.840 --> 0:57:27.240 but today we showed that they are just as afraid 0:57:27.280 --> 0:57:30.160 of an uncertain outcome, and we can use that to 0:57:30.200 --> 0:57:33.200 our advantage when we work together. The people who went 0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:36.040 to trial or pushed it to the brink got objectively 0:57:36.120 --> 0:57:39.000 better outcomes than those who took deals ahead of time, 0:57:39.640 --> 0:57:42.160 and those who took deals often had to struggle with 0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:45.800 changing conditions at trial, but still felt obligated to comply. 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:49.240 I and another defendant held out, in part out of 0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:51.520 principle for people who had not been offered deals, and 0:57:51.560 --> 0:57:55.520 in part to say fuck you, Bobby Lilly, our prosecutor, 0:57:55.680 --> 0:57:59.040 who is a literal clown. My co defendant and I 0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:01.280 went to bat for another who was not offered a 0:58:01.320 --> 0:58:04.479 deal at first. My co defendant was offered a deal, 0:58:04.880 --> 0:58:07.560 rather nice one at that, but my friend said no. 0:58:08.120 --> 0:58:11.880 The clown blinked. My friend basically went to trial. Technically 0:58:11.920 --> 0:58:14.840 they took a deal, but they basically started a trial. 0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:18.640 Prosecution made a motion to amend charges, but abruptly the 0:58:18.680 --> 0:58:20.520 clown and his cop body left. 0:58:20.800 --> 0:58:21.280 They ran. 0:58:21.840 --> 0:58:25.040 They had no evidence. Another deal, which was even better, 0:58:25.160 --> 0:58:28.480 was offered, and this time I got one too. For me, 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:31.040 it was good and an agreement. We took our deals. 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:33.960 The one other person was offered an okay deal, but 0:58:34.040 --> 0:58:36.400 opted to go to trial with eyes open at the 0:58:36.440 --> 0:58:40.520 courts in competence and crushed it. Little Bobby Lilly looked 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:43.840 even more like a clown. Every deal that was offered 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:46.320 only got better, especially on the day of the trial. 0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:49.600 You don't have to accept the first deal, or the second, 0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:52.760 or the third or the fourth. And when they try 0:58:52.800 --> 0:58:55.200 to pit us against each other, it is because they 0:58:55.200 --> 0:58:59.919 know we are stronger together. Initially we were charged with conspiracy. 0:59:00.440 --> 0:59:04.080 The real conspiracy is between prosecutors and the judges, between 0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:07.600 the cops and the corporations. It is the conspiracy between 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:10.680 your landlord and your boss to keep you exhausted and hungry, 0:59:11.040 --> 0:59:14.120 unable to fight back. It is the dictatorship of the 0:59:14.120 --> 0:59:17.120 billionaires to keep us bound to their world where they 0:59:17.160 --> 0:59:20.360 make and break their own rules. This is bigger than 0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:23.280 a forty two inch wide, three hundred and three mile long, 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:27.360 ticking time bomb running to Appalachia. It is the fact 0:59:27.400 --> 0:59:30.000 that our lives are bought and sold by the large 0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:33.160 land owning class who are able to ram this project 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:37.400 through under Joe Biden, despite the harm it'll cause, because 0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:41.160 it will make them money as the world burns. Then 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:44.720 here's another statement from the person who sat inside the pipe, 0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:46.200 and the statement is from last year. 0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:47.480 Quote. 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:51.240 Winning looks so much bigger than just stopping this pipeline. 0:59:51.800 --> 0:59:54.440 It's a win through the community folks continue to build. 0:59:55.040 --> 0:59:57.000 It is a win because of the insane amount of 0:59:57.040 --> 1:00:00.880 skills that people have gathered and shared, no whin because 1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:04.120 whether or not this pipeline ever has gas running through it, 1:00:04.400 --> 1:00:09.400 the legacy of resistance in Appalachia still lives. Extractive industry 1:00:09.520 --> 1:00:12.480 knows that they can't fuck with the communities here without 1:00:12.520 --> 1:00:15.720 going through hell, and we better not let them forget that. 1:00:16.840 --> 1:00:19.680 Many times in my life I have felt consumed by grief, 1:00:20.400 --> 1:00:23.600 grief for all the places this pipeline has destroyed, For 1:00:23.720 --> 1:00:27.040 communities who continue to be ravaged by the state and industry, 1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:31.040 For the senseless violence committed against people and land every day, 1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:35.040 For friends and strangers forced into cages. But what keeps 1:00:35.080 --> 1:00:37.720 me moving is knowing that I feel such grief only 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:40.680 because I have such deep hope and love for what 1:00:40.800 --> 1:00:43.440 could be and what we have the power to create. 1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:48.400 Find or facilitate radical community. Wherever you call home, Think 1:00:48.400 --> 1:00:50.920 about the things you are willing to sacrifice for people 1:00:50.960 --> 1:00:54.680 near and far. Dream of worlds that feel out of reach, 1:00:55.120 --> 1:00:57.360 because I bet they aren't as far away as it 1:00:57.400 --> 1:01:02.280 may seem as the end of the and so yeah, 1:01:02.440 --> 1:01:05.080 though the criminal trials are over, the civil legal fight 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:08.520 rages on. MVP is attempting to wield civil courts to 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:12.360 silence its opposition. And if you want to help support 1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:16.680 that fight, which continues, you can donate to Appalachian Legal 1:01:16.680 --> 1:01:20.200 Defense Fund, which you can find probably by just searching 1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:21.840 for it, but you can also find it by going 1:01:21.880 --> 1:01:28.080 to bit dot l y slash app Legal Defense all 1:01:28.120 --> 1:01:29.160 one word, no dashes. 1:01:30.080 --> 1:01:30.480 Anyway. 1:01:31.360 --> 1:01:55.160 That's it for the episode. I'll talk to you soon. Hello, 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:58.320 and welcome to the podcast. It's me James. Today we 1:01:58.360 --> 1:02:02.320 have a very special episode in which everyone is a doctor. 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:04.360 I will believe in discussion, of course, as a doctor 1:02:04.360 --> 1:02:09.040 of modern European history. But I'm joined today by venktash Ramnath, 1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:12.880 who is a practicing pullmanologist, a professor at UC San 1:02:12.920 --> 1:02:16.560 Diego Health, a medical director of several its use in 1:02:16.680 --> 1:02:19.320 royal and urban settings, and also the author of the 1:02:19.360 --> 1:02:23.080 substack be a health architect. Welcome to the Shoving Test. 1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:23.960 Thanks for joining us. 1:02:24.080 --> 1:02:24.840 Great to be here. 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:28.240 I'm also joined by doctor Carve Hooder, a gastro enterologist 1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:33.240 and the host of our favorite medical podcast, the House 1:02:33.280 --> 1:02:36.320 of Pod. Of the many you listen to, I'm sure yeah, 1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:38.440 what they might call a super user in a medical 1:02:38.480 --> 1:02:42.880 podcast space you listen to more than. Most importantly, Cave 1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:46.160 is of course our friend, our resident doctor with a 1:02:46.280 --> 1:02:50.200 useful doctorate. So what we want to talk about today 1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:55.919 is Medicare and specifically some of the cuts to medicare. 1:02:55.920 --> 1:03:00.520 More broadly, the I don't know, you have to put 1:03:00.560 --> 1:03:05.000 this challenges for people working in healthcare in the Trump administration. Right, 1:03:05.040 --> 1:03:09.280 we addressed specifically gender affirming care in a previous episode, 1:03:09.280 --> 1:03:12.000 but it doesn't start and end there, right, That might 1:03:12.040 --> 1:03:14.000 be the thing that sort of the culture wars have 1:03:14.080 --> 1:03:16.800 been focusing on recently. But I want to talk more 1:03:16.800 --> 1:03:20.560 broadly about the challenges facing healthcare. So, first of all, 1:03:21.120 --> 1:03:25.280 would one of you care to explain medicare for people 1:03:25.320 --> 1:03:27.640 who are not familiar And some listeners might not be 1:03:27.760 --> 1:03:30.120 living in the United States, or they might just not 1:03:30.160 --> 1:03:32.520 have encountered this yet in their life, So could one 1:03:32.560 --> 1:03:35.760 of you explain what this particular sort of type of 1:03:35.760 --> 1:03:38.600 health insurance is and how it's maybe more vulnerable than 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:41.720 other types to federal government changes. 1:03:42.560 --> 1:03:44.040 I could take a stab at it. 1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:47.680 I'm not a health policy want but I am a 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:50.560 physician that has to deal with Medicare all the time. 1:03:50.640 --> 1:03:54.480 So Medicare, in sort of general terms, is a type 1:03:54.480 --> 1:03:57.960 of health insurance that is provided by the federal government. 1:03:58.440 --> 1:04:01.560 It is almost exclusively for individuals above the age of 1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:04.920 sixty five, as it dates back to the nineteen sixties 1:04:05.000 --> 1:04:09.240 with Linda Johnson's Great Society Program, and so since that 1:04:09.400 --> 1:04:14.800 time there has been this blanket coverage for any individuals 1:04:14.800 --> 1:04:19.520 above that age, such that all their medical services or products, 1:04:19.920 --> 1:04:23.360 whatever they need for their healthcare is actually covered by 1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:24.040 the government. 1:04:24.080 --> 1:04:25.840 This is the federal government. Now. 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:28.040 The interesting thing about Medicare is that there are different 1:04:28.040 --> 1:04:32.200 parts to it. There's Part A, which is primarily for 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:37.160 some essential services and includes hospital care. There's Part B, 1:04:37.440 --> 1:04:42.640 which includes whatever physicians fees go into that healthcare. And 1:04:42.680 --> 1:04:46.080 then there's Part D, which relates to pharmaceutical prices, so 1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.640 your drug costs. It's not comprehensive in the sense that 1:04:50.000 --> 1:04:54.320 there's always something more that individuals need, but Beneicare, for 1:04:54.400 --> 1:04:58.720 all intents and purposes, is the sort of standard and. 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:01.880 It should cover most of individual's needs. 1:05:02.080 --> 1:05:06.439 Now that said, the commercial payers, that is, the other 1:05:06.480 --> 1:05:11.360 insurance companies that are not federally government sponsored, take their 1:05:11.480 --> 1:05:14.160 lead from Medicare. So a lot of the different payment 1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:18.959 rates or coverages and services they all look to what 1:05:19.040 --> 1:05:22.840 the centers of Medicare and Medicaid services dictate as far 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:26.919 as what is an acceptable reimbursement rate, what are the 1:05:27.040 --> 1:05:29.760 rules around what should be covered and what should not. 1:05:30.240 --> 1:05:34.600 So that's why Medicare is such an important entity for 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:35.720 the United States. 1:05:35.880 --> 1:05:37.520 Yeah, I'll add to that. 1:05:37.920 --> 1:05:41.200 They set the lead of importance here too, because if 1:05:41.200 --> 1:05:45.080 we're talking about telemedicine telehealth, how important that is to 1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:49.280 Medicare patients, to everyone in the country at this point, 1:05:50.040 --> 1:05:52.920 then if they are to cut it. If that happens 1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:54.800 is I think we're probably going to discuss. If that 1:05:54.880 --> 1:05:58.920 goes away, then the other private insurance companies are going 1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:02.360 to follow. That's right, could be across the board changes 1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:04.800 led by these changes of medicare. 1:06:05.000 --> 1:06:07.560 Yeah, so let's talk about those changes. Then, as you 1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:10.880 mentioned right, there's this telemedicine. It's a waiver right that 1:06:10.960 --> 1:06:16.000 has allowed telemedicine to be funded through this for the 1:06:16.120 --> 1:06:19.360 last five years. I suppose it's going to expire by 1:06:19.360 --> 1:06:22.280 the end of this month, which is March twenty twenty five. 1:06:22.360 --> 1:06:26.880 If if you're listening later, explain like why telemedicine has 1:06:26.960 --> 1:06:31.560 been such a positive step like in healthcare since if 1:06:31.560 --> 1:06:34.880 you could since twenty twenty and then what we're facing 1:06:35.200 --> 1:06:37.120 if it's no longer funded federally. 1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:40.280 May I'll start this one, but Venkesh definitely want you 1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:42.440 to weigh in on it as well. Does give a little 1:06:42.440 --> 1:06:45.840 background over the past five years that's grown quite a 1:06:45.840 --> 1:06:49.200 bit and it's gone from being kind of this emergency 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:53.680 stop gap to a real cornerstone of what we consider 1:06:53.800 --> 1:06:58.040 modern healthcare and now it's exceedingly common, like over seventy 1:06:58.040 --> 1:07:01.200 five percent of hospitals in the US connect at a 1:07:01.320 --> 1:07:08.240 distance via video conference or some technology to patients, and 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:12.000 it's been popular on both sides. It's been popular on 1:07:12.040 --> 1:07:14.520 both sides of the aisle. When it first was done, 1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:20.320 as you mentioned, during COVID, when they said, okay, we're 1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:24.160 gonna peel back some of the restrictions on Medicare coverage 1:07:24.160 --> 1:07:28.400 for these telehealth things, it was considered like a victory, 1:07:28.600 --> 1:07:30.400 like one of the few good things that come out 1:07:30.440 --> 1:07:34.800 of COVID. Both sides liked it. It was popular amongst patients, 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:38.439 it was popular amongst medical providers. It was good for 1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:43.120 Republicans and Democrats alike. And as you mentioned, it's been 1:07:43.600 --> 1:07:46.040 kept going through being put in some bill or another 1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:48.520 since it was initially put in I think as they 1:07:48.600 --> 1:07:51.480 called in twenty twenty, and it's been put in one 1:07:51.480 --> 1:07:54.080 bill or another to go with a funding. But then 1:07:54.320 --> 1:07:57.920 came this last December when Congress was going through their spending. 1:07:58.440 --> 1:08:00.720 It was only given this three months reprieve, which is 1:08:00.760 --> 1:08:02.280 going to be up as you mentioned, at the end 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:04.680 of this month. And if it goes away, there's a 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:06.600 lot of factors will go into a lot of them, 1:08:06.760 --> 1:08:10.920 but there's a lot of people, older patients, you know, 1:08:10.960 --> 1:08:13.400 compromise patients who don't want to come into office, people 1:08:13.400 --> 1:08:16.760 with disabilities, people can't get around that well, people in 1:08:16.880 --> 1:08:19.879 rural areas, which is you know, really how it started. 1:08:20.280 --> 1:08:23.080 People who are going to be hurt all across this country. 1:08:23.240 --> 1:08:26.040 And at this point, the majority of people have had 1:08:26.320 --> 1:08:30.640 at least one experience or more in a year with telemedicine. 1:08:30.680 --> 1:08:32.679 It's become a part of a lot of people's lives. 1:08:32.960 --> 1:08:36.000 And if it goes away, you know, there's still going 1:08:36.040 --> 1:08:37.960 to be health care as it is. I mean, it 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:40.519 doesn't mean healthcare is going away, but it is going 1:08:40.520 --> 1:08:44.600 to put a tremendous burden on patients and hospitals for 1:08:44.680 --> 1:08:46.559 that matter, across the country. 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:48.080 Yeah, let me add to that. 1:08:48.120 --> 1:08:52.120 So, you know, telemedicine has been around for a very 1:08:52.240 --> 1:08:54.840 long time, at least technically speaking, right, I mean, you 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:57.880 can go back to the nineteen seventies. Even when you 1:08:58.000 --> 1:09:00.920 talk about the intensive caeriod, which is where the sickest 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:03.680 people in the hospital are, there are studies that come 1:09:03.720 --> 1:09:07.760 out of the nineteen seventies. However, Ever, since people have 1:09:07.840 --> 1:09:10.840 had iPhones and been on airbnb and everything else. Since 1:09:10.840 --> 1:09:15.360 two thousand and seven, That inflection point actually had a 1:09:15.600 --> 1:09:19.559 wave of opportunity that washed right into medicine, and as 1:09:19.760 --> 1:09:23.880 Cave is saying, you know, we have such a fragmented 1:09:23.920 --> 1:09:27.920 healthcare system that has you know, folks living in rural areas, 1:09:28.080 --> 1:09:32.760 suburban areas, and urban areas, all of whom are at 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:36.240 the mercy of what specialists may be. They're contracted at 1:09:36.240 --> 1:09:41.200 any given time for any given specialty. Now telemedicine, as 1:09:41.240 --> 1:09:44.799 it's gotten more and more popular, has kind of leveled 1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:47.400 the playing field. I mean, you can be in a 1:09:47.520 --> 1:09:49.880 rural place like where I'm sitting right now on the 1:09:49.960 --> 1:09:53.320 US Mexico border, or you can be in New York City, 1:09:53.600 --> 1:09:56.160 you know, one of the densest populations, but you may 1:09:56.400 --> 1:10:03.280 might not have access to specialty expertise without telemedicine. With telemedicine, 1:10:03.479 --> 1:10:06.599 you can now have access and I've seen patients love it. 1:10:07.080 --> 1:10:09.000 You can deal with the sickest of the sick, like 1:10:09.040 --> 1:10:11.760 I said, intensive care units, but you can also have 1:10:11.840 --> 1:10:15.000 outpatient experiences. And we've seen a number of different you know, 1:10:15.000 --> 1:10:18.000 commercial opportunities that have leveraged that. But the point is 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:21.240 that as we're hearing on this, you know, it's become 1:10:21.439 --> 1:10:26.200 sort of a standard operating procedure for how we deliver healthcare. 1:10:26.520 --> 1:10:28.400 And if you just pull the rug out from that, 1:10:28.800 --> 1:10:32.439 there can be some you know, unintended consequences to that 1:10:32.439 --> 1:10:33.720 that are not insignificant. 1:10:34.160 --> 1:10:36.360 Yeah, and like it makes a lot of sense to 1:10:36.360 --> 1:10:37.720 a lot of people, right, Like I think about my 1:10:37.720 --> 1:10:40.800 own experience with it. I was traveling recently and got 1:10:40.880 --> 1:10:43.320 COVID like a couple of months ago, and there was 1:10:43.360 --> 1:10:45.040 no need for me to go to a clinic and 1:10:45.080 --> 1:10:47.360 be around other people, right, I just needed to contact 1:10:47.400 --> 1:10:50.840 my doctor and get some prescriptions and check in, And like, 1:10:50.880 --> 1:10:52.479 it was so much better that I could do it 1:10:52.520 --> 1:10:56.160 in my pajamas from the bed rather than like having 1:10:56.200 --> 1:10:58.519 to get out. And I'm lucky I have access to 1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:00.720 a car I can drive to to surgery is not 1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.000 that far away, have a job that accommodates my schedule. 1:11:03.080 --> 1:11:05.880 But there are million reasons way it might be very 1:11:05.920 --> 1:11:10.080 beneficial to people. So let's talk about you. You mentioned 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:13.320 this before, but we have commercial insurers, and like people 1:11:13.880 --> 1:11:16.479 might think that this is limited to older folks, or 1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:19.479 it doesn't affect them, or it's something that only impacts 1:11:19.520 --> 1:11:23.120 people who have Medicare. But as you said, Medicare kind 1:11:23.160 --> 1:11:26.160 of sets the standard for what is covered and what 1:11:26.240 --> 1:11:28.360 isn't covered, right, So, can you explain how this might 1:11:28.479 --> 1:11:31.479 end up resulting in it in just a massive like 1:11:31.520 --> 1:11:33.920 a cliff. I've seen it described as a telehealth cliff. 1:11:34.280 --> 1:11:38.200 Yeah, so, I mean basically, the sort of this convoluted 1:11:38.240 --> 1:11:41.880 way that we pay for services is it looks to 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:45.599 one standard, even though some may argue how did that 1:11:45.600 --> 1:11:46.400 standard come about? 1:11:46.400 --> 1:11:47.360 But regardless of. 1:11:47.800 --> 1:11:52.880 That, Medicare is the central authority that basically tells everyone 1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:55.720 this is what we should be doing, and this is 1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:58.160 how much we should be paying for it. Now, the 1:11:58.240 --> 1:12:02.280 commercial insurers can decide to exceed that if they wish. 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:07.160 If they say, have an employer who's employees they want 1:12:07.200 --> 1:12:10.280 to have a special contract with, that's that's fine, that's 1:12:10.280 --> 1:12:14.760 not restricted. But the bottom of what is considered a 1:12:14.840 --> 1:12:18.720 reimbursable amount is really set by Medicare, and so they 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:21.160 move the bottom. And so if you drop the bottom, 1:12:21.600 --> 1:12:23.800 you can pretty much well assured in this. You know, 1:12:23.840 --> 1:12:26.760 in a capitalist you know sort of mentality that the 1:12:26.800 --> 1:12:28.920 costs should go down, right, I mean, why should you 1:12:28.960 --> 1:12:32.639 pay more for something that you don't need to write? 1:12:32.640 --> 1:12:35.160 And we see that we see that every year. 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:39.840 Okay, every year there's new technology, but the slightly older technology, 1:12:40.200 --> 1:12:45.040 which is again covered by Medicare, they move those reimbursements down. 1:12:45.200 --> 1:12:48.439 So whether it's a sleep study, you know, for someone 1:12:48.479 --> 1:12:51.800 with obstructive sleep apn are difficulty sleeping at night, or 1:12:51.840 --> 1:12:56.040 it's some ophthalmology technology, or it's some ultra sound machine, 1:12:56.080 --> 1:12:59.000 it doesn't really matter what it is. Medicare is always 1:12:59.040 --> 1:13:01.640 trying to minimal cost, which is understandable. 1:13:01.680 --> 1:13:02.719 They want to make it cost. 1:13:02.520 --> 1:13:07.120 Effective, but they are setting the lead so everyone will 1:13:07.160 --> 1:13:10.519 follow what they do. That's kind of the way that 1:13:10.600 --> 1:13:11.960 our system is sort of set up. 1:13:12.560 --> 1:13:15.720 Yeah, you know, I might just add to that that 1:13:16.439 --> 1:13:18.679 aside from all the things we mentioned about it, how 1:13:19.040 --> 1:13:22.000 you know, it helps people in rural areas, people with 1:13:22.040 --> 1:13:25.479 difficulty getting places are just really busy schedules. It also, 1:13:25.880 --> 1:13:29.120 you know, helps free hospital beds, helps prevent emergency rooms 1:13:29.160 --> 1:13:33.160 from being overwhelmed. It leads to faster testing, it leads 1:13:33.320 --> 1:13:35.599 to a higher number of people that we can see, 1:13:36.040 --> 1:13:39.240 and in terms of its quality, we know it works 1:13:39.360 --> 1:13:43.400 well and about ninety percent of cases of telemedicine to 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:46.400 get the same outcomes if the patient was there in clinic, 1:13:46.800 --> 1:13:48.880 and that ten percent that's not it's not clear that 1:13:48.880 --> 1:13:51.880 they're getting inferior care in most of those cases. So 1:13:52.280 --> 1:13:56.759 it's an effective treatment, and you could make an argument 1:13:56.880 --> 1:13:59.120 that it is cost effective in some ways too. It's 1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:03.600 particularly clearly for like things of dermatology, pediatrics. These are 1:14:03.640 --> 1:14:05.920 things where it's clearly cost effective to have it. But 1:14:06.439 --> 1:14:09.840 even beyond that, it's not even necessarily I think a 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:13.120 strong argument that we'll be losing money from it, and 1:14:13.160 --> 1:14:15.720 that cutting it would help us in the long run. 1:14:15.800 --> 1:14:17.760 I feel like if we're being smart about how to 1:14:17.840 --> 1:14:21.599 manage American healthcare system and how to keep it afloat, 1:14:22.160 --> 1:14:24.240 telemedicine is going to be an important part of that 1:14:24.360 --> 1:14:25.000 going forward. 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:27.839 I want to I do want to add something here, 1:14:27.880 --> 1:14:29.880 and I do want to be careful about the term, 1:14:29.920 --> 1:14:34.320 because telemedicine and telehealth are not only sort of a 1:14:34.560 --> 1:14:37.280 catch all, but they're sort of used interchangeably, right, and 1:14:38.120 --> 1:14:40.800 just like anything, you have to be specific about the term. 1:14:40.840 --> 1:14:44.280 So I think what we're talking about this on this 1:14:44.680 --> 1:14:47.960 podcast is tell amedicine in terms of a two way 1:14:48.560 --> 1:14:52.880 audio visual interface where you can have a direct face 1:14:52.920 --> 1:14:59.400 to face consultation or interaction with a practicing practitioner. Usually 1:14:59.400 --> 1:15:01.439 that's going to be a position, but it may be 1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:04.880 a nurse practitioner or other physician extender we call them. 1:15:05.160 --> 1:15:08.160 But just to be clear, you know, telemedicine also extends 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:12.599 to other types of devices like wearables. Those things that 1:15:12.840 --> 1:15:14.920 they are either you know, trackers that you can wear 1:15:14.960 --> 1:15:18.280 as your fitbit, or a sleep device you know that 1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:21.360 you can wear around. Those kinds of things are kind 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:25.799 of put into the telemedicine bucket and it's not clear 1:15:25.880 --> 1:15:28.719 to me at least how that is going to change. 1:15:28.760 --> 1:15:32.439 I think April first is when they face to face 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:37.280 coverage from a professional fee standpoint that is slated to 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:41.840 end because they did liberalize it during the COVID pandemic 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:45.240 and it's been extended I think another year around that, 1:15:45.560 --> 1:15:49.439 and that will definitely change the dynamic here, but it's 1:15:49.479 --> 1:15:52.000 not clear how much of it extends to other types 1:15:52.000 --> 1:15:56.360 of remote physiologic monitoring services and products. 1:15:56.600 --> 1:15:59.160 Right, yeah, so something like a glucose monitor or like 1:15:59.360 --> 1:16:02.200 yeah some yeah, which could be catastrophic for people, right 1:16:02.479 --> 1:16:04.920 if they don't get those those funded. Right, We're going 1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:07.120 to take a little break for advertisements here. Maybe you'll 1:16:07.120 --> 1:16:10.320 get an advertisement for a Bluecoast Monitor or even Insolent. 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:10.880 Could only hope. 1:16:10.960 --> 1:16:15.160 Yeah, yeah, I'm glad they're taking some of that money 1:16:15.320 --> 1:16:17.479 that they've made me bleed out of my wallet over 1:16:17.520 --> 1:16:19.880 the years and returning it to me in the form 1:16:19.880 --> 1:16:35.639 of podcast advertisements. All right, we're back. Let's talk more 1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:39.519 broadly about I guess the changes in the legislative environment 1:16:39.640 --> 1:16:41.640 for healthcare might be a good way to put it. 1:16:42.320 --> 1:16:45.320 I think if you were an excellent op ed recently 1:16:45.400 --> 1:16:48.920 where you discussed you were one of the many recipients 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:51.400 of the Tomby five Useful things you did at work 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:54.840 this week email, I thought you wrote like a really 1:16:54.880 --> 1:16:59.320 good piece about about the varied and critical work that 1:16:59.400 --> 1:17:03.360 you do. Can you talk about, like, what is the 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:08.360 feeling among healthcare professionals, physicians who have you sort of 1:17:08.400 --> 1:17:12.519 like to speak speak as going into four years of 1:17:13.280 --> 1:17:18.960 possibly vastly reduced government spending and a sort of bizarre 1:17:19.000 --> 1:17:22.639 and haphazard cutting of the federal biocracy that we're seeing. 1:17:23.000 --> 1:17:26.120 Yeah, it's a tough time, certainly, and coming out of 1:17:26.120 --> 1:17:29.720 the pandemic, this is not what really anybody expected. But 1:17:29.880 --> 1:17:33.639 you know, the stresses have been mounting for quite a while, right, 1:17:34.120 --> 1:17:38.519 Healthcare professionals are seeing and feeling more stress at work, 1:17:38.600 --> 1:17:42.439 whether it's you know, the demands of the job meaning 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:47.360 that there are fewer resources to spend on a heightened 1:17:47.479 --> 1:17:52.439 number of patients with you know, increasingly complex diseases, or 1:17:52.520 --> 1:17:55.720 even just the questions that we are getting from patients. 1:17:56.160 --> 1:18:00.479 A lot of patients now are asking me really financial questions. 1:18:00.520 --> 1:18:03.320 I mean literally, the other day, I had a woman 1:18:03.400 --> 1:18:07.479 who was unfortunately having septic shock and was faced with 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:11.160 having to amputate her leg, and I was speaking with 1:18:11.200 --> 1:18:14.280 her husband because she was becoming more and more delirious, 1:18:14.320 --> 1:18:17.720 and he was just asking me about, well, I'm going 1:18:17.800 --> 1:18:21.320 to have to sell my house in order to fund 1:18:21.479 --> 1:18:24.280 what might come down the pike as far as being 1:18:24.280 --> 1:18:26.840 at home with services, and I was trying to I 1:18:26.880 --> 1:18:29.519 was trying to kind of get an understanding of how 1:18:29.560 --> 1:18:33.200 he viewed his wife actually going through the thing that 1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:37.280 we're watching in the moment. But it's a preoccupation that 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:39.679 has taken up a lot of space in the room, 1:18:39.880 --> 1:18:42.880 and it's now coming on to physicians to sort of 1:18:43.439 --> 1:18:47.200 navigate at least some questions and answer those questions around it. 1:18:47.280 --> 1:18:49.720 So that's a long way of saying that, you know, 1:18:50.040 --> 1:18:54.320 physicians and nurses and other healthcare professionals are feeling more 1:18:54.320 --> 1:18:57.679 and more stress in a system that's just buckling, right, 1:18:57.760 --> 1:19:01.559 and the last thing anybody needs is to be having 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:05.439 to do more without really a clear understanding of the 1:19:05.479 --> 1:19:08.760 purpose around it, right, And we are all for a 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:09.840 cost effectiveness. 1:19:09.840 --> 1:19:10.960 We want that to work. 1:19:11.000 --> 1:19:15.479 We also want to provide care irrespective of someone's religious, political, 1:19:15.560 --> 1:19:18.240 or other beliefs. And yet, you know, we have to 1:19:18.439 --> 1:19:21.760 work within a system that we kind of are not 1:19:21.880 --> 1:19:25.439 really understanding how they're approaching this issue. Are they are 1:19:25.479 --> 1:19:27.559 they with us or against us or somewhere in between. 1:19:28.000 --> 1:19:30.160 It's it's sort of a it's a moving target, and 1:19:30.200 --> 1:19:32.760 so I think that's what's that's what's kind of sandwiched 1:19:32.840 --> 1:19:34.920 a lot of healthcare professionals, and we don't really know 1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:37.320 where to turn for. 1:19:37.600 --> 1:19:40.160 Some of the answers that we ourselves are looking for. 1:19:40.760 --> 1:19:43.679 I would add also, you know, we're seeing this active 1:19:43.720 --> 1:19:48.479 dismantling of the US healthcare infrastructure, and our friends in 1:19:48.560 --> 1:19:52.080 the academic world in particular, it's a very stressful time 1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:54.960 for them. Who knows if their studies are going to 1:19:55.360 --> 1:19:57.320 go through, who knows if they're going to get their 1:19:57.360 --> 1:20:00.360 funding who knows what's going to stay with going to 1:20:00.400 --> 1:20:01.920 go in the next couple of years. There's a lot 1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:05.759 of concern over that, obviously, But even in the medical 1:20:05.800 --> 1:20:09.160 world outside of the academic centers, I know a lot 1:20:09.200 --> 1:20:12.599 of doctors right now are concerned and they're concerned about 1:20:12.680 --> 1:20:16.000 what's going to happen to the state of our scientific 1:20:16.000 --> 1:20:20.760 community that helps us with new advancements in medical technology 1:20:20.920 --> 1:20:23.680 in the coming years. And it seems like, as Ventechia 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:28.120 was alluding to, we're dismantling all our ability to follow 1:20:28.280 --> 1:20:33.160 to study to really closely track infectious disease in a 1:20:33.200 --> 1:20:38.519 time that is exceedingly dangerous across the world, with rising disease, 1:20:38.600 --> 1:20:42.439 tuberculosis in this country, measles in this country, in Uganda, 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:46.400 there's ebola again. There's threats all over the world. And 1:20:46.439 --> 1:20:48.320 this is one of the worst times I could think 1:20:48.320 --> 1:20:53.120 of to be in this moment of austerity, and particularly 1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:55.599 because so much of it seems unclear to us why 1:20:56.240 --> 1:20:59.320 why these things are being done, you know, is it 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:02.719 all because of this ridiculous gender ideology. Do they actually 1:21:02.720 --> 1:21:05.160 think they're saving money with some of these things. It's 1:21:05.160 --> 1:21:07.400 a very unclear time. And of course there are a 1:21:07.400 --> 1:21:10.320 lot of people in the medical world, doctors included, that 1:21:10.520 --> 1:21:15.599 are conservative or Republican voters. Getting into conversations with them 1:21:15.640 --> 1:21:19.679 about this is sort of a tough thing to do because, 1:21:20.240 --> 1:21:22.840 like Fintesha mentioned, they, like a lot of us, want 1:21:22.840 --> 1:21:25.040 to make sure we're doing this in a cost effective manner, 1:21:25.280 --> 1:21:27.400 something we talk about and we have been talking about 1:21:27.400 --> 1:21:30.679 in medicine for a long time, particularly academic medicine, interestingly enough, 1:21:30.880 --> 1:21:31.479 which is really on. 1:21:31.479 --> 1:21:32.200 The cutting board. 1:21:32.400 --> 1:21:35.880 It's academic medicine that usually talks about, you know, trying 1:21:35.880 --> 1:21:38.320 to be cost effective. What tests are we going to order, 1:21:38.640 --> 1:21:40.639 what labs do we need to get, How we doing 1:21:40.720 --> 1:21:43.320 this in the most cost effective way. These are important 1:21:43.320 --> 1:21:48.760 things that are discussed and across the political spectrum in medicine. 1:21:48.800 --> 1:21:51.559 I think there is some concern even amongst some of 1:21:51.600 --> 1:21:55.120 the more right leaning doctors. But again it's hard because 1:21:55.400 --> 1:21:57.720 they've gone this far down the road, it's hard to know, 1:21:58.200 --> 1:21:59.840 you know, when they're going to pull back. What's the 1:21:59.880 --> 1:22:01.960 line in the stand for them about what is maybe 1:22:01.960 --> 1:22:03.240 too far for this administration. 1:22:04.040 --> 1:22:07.360 Yeah, and certainly like an area where we're seeing there 1:22:07.400 --> 1:22:12.080 right now is in like public health, right, we don't 1:22:12.080 --> 1:22:15.200 really know, like I'm going to Texas next week, where 1:22:15.200 --> 1:22:19.360 there's currently a measles outbreak. The things that we didn't 1:22:19.360 --> 1:22:21.559 think that we might be seeing in this country again, 1:22:21.880 --> 1:22:24.439 we're seeing again. And like, as you say, it's coming 1:22:24.439 --> 1:22:30.160 at a time when like not just funding is unstable, 1:22:30.240 --> 1:22:33.920 but also like the I guess, like the basics of 1:22:34.240 --> 1:22:38.000 science have been somewhat politicized right to a degree, and 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:39.720 like people, I don't know if that's something you see 1:22:39.760 --> 1:22:43.040 in your practice, but like certainly, like I was talking 1:22:43.040 --> 1:22:45.120 to a doctor friend who said half their clients are 1:22:45.120 --> 1:22:48.960 now like declining vaccinations as I was there to get, 1:22:49.280 --> 1:22:52.040 you know, every disease that I could get. I have 1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:54.519 a lot of travel vaccinations, so I'm always getting new 1:22:54.520 --> 1:22:58.559 and exciting vaccinations. But I'm making up for some of 1:22:58.560 --> 1:23:02.400 the gap, I guess. But it's it's a really challenging 1:23:02.439 --> 1:23:05.439 time right from that perspective as well, like the culture 1:23:05.479 --> 1:23:05.960 around it. 1:23:06.040 --> 1:23:06.840 Yeah, that's right. 1:23:06.920 --> 1:23:09.200 I mean even here in the San Francisco Bay area, 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:12.439 you know, I've seen more of vaccine hesitation than I 1:23:12.479 --> 1:23:14.080 remember ever seen before in the past. 1:23:14.479 --> 1:23:17.680 It's sort of a vexing question because I think some 1:23:17.720 --> 1:23:20.479 of this is let's be clear, some of this is 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:24.000 on our messaging, you know, as healthcare professionals. I mean, 1:23:24.320 --> 1:23:27.760 there are more and more articles. In fact, the Wall 1:23:27.760 --> 1:23:30.559 Street Journal piece a couple of weeks ago that was 1:23:30.600 --> 1:23:34.000 saying how patients you know, are increasingly not trusting their 1:23:34.040 --> 1:23:37.360 doctors and there are data to say that we don't 1:23:37.360 --> 1:23:39.960 communicate very well. Right, So there there is that, and 1:23:39.960 --> 1:23:42.960 that's on us. And you know, another op ed piece 1:23:42.960 --> 1:23:45.320 in the Boston Globe by Ashi's Jaw, you know, did 1:23:45.320 --> 1:23:48.040 a mea culpa around some of the things that public 1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:49.040 health we did wrong. 1:23:49.160 --> 1:23:50.040 We got it, we got it. 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:53.120 Wrong in COVID where we didn't you know, deal with 1:23:53.160 --> 1:23:57.120 some of the doubts and lack of evidentiary base for 1:23:57.320 --> 1:24:00.920 masking and some of these other things that basically hurt 1:24:01.000 --> 1:24:04.720 us in the end. So there's definitely that. However, you know, 1:24:05.040 --> 1:24:10.040 restoring the trust in healthcare professionals is sort of like 1:24:10.080 --> 1:24:12.880 a basic step to anyone getting their healthcare. I mean, 1:24:12.920 --> 1:24:16.080 I think people still go to their doctors. Most people 1:24:16.280 --> 1:24:20.160 still trust their doctor to some degree, and I think 1:24:20.200 --> 1:24:24.559 that that's at least a bright spot in where we are, 1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:28.880 because when we've lost that, I think we're really in trouble. 1:24:28.960 --> 1:24:31.559 I mean that's slipping. But I think that there is 1:24:31.760 --> 1:24:34.960 a way to restore that trust. But it starts so 1:24:35.040 --> 1:24:37.400 that it just starts with a conversation. You know, if 1:24:37.439 --> 1:24:41.759 someone has a vaccine hesitancy or they don't understand what's 1:24:41.840 --> 1:24:46.600 going on, that's the opportunity to open the doors to 1:24:46.880 --> 1:24:50.280 a dialogue. And I think maybe that's, you know, maybe 1:24:50.320 --> 1:24:53.320 that's the starting point for any of this. We all 1:24:53.360 --> 1:24:58.040 want cost effectiveness, we all want you know, transparency. We 1:24:58.120 --> 1:25:00.719 also want to have choices that make sense to us. 1:25:01.080 --> 1:25:04.400 But let's not make it an adversarial confrontation. And I 1:25:04.439 --> 1:25:07.479 think that that goes for both sides. I would add, 1:25:07.520 --> 1:25:10.400 though I agree with you on pretty much all of that. 1:25:10.439 --> 1:25:12.439 I agree that we need to have those conversations, you know, 1:25:12.439 --> 1:25:15.360 if they're difficult. We need to be able to look 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:18.960 back objectively about things that worked and didn't work. But 1:25:19.040 --> 1:25:21.080 a lot of these sort of mia culpas that have 1:25:21.160 --> 1:25:24.920 come out about like you know, this is where we 1:25:24.960 --> 1:25:27.519 went wrong and why we lost trust, if I'm being honest, 1:25:27.560 --> 1:25:30.320 including that one from Ashi's Yad, has a lot of 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:33.280 in my opinion, pick me energy, a lot of people 1:25:33.320 --> 1:25:36.960 who are trying to appeal to the incoming administration and 1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:39.519 be like, hey, look, I'm cool too. I'm not always 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:43.559 about vaccines, and to me, that's just as bad too. 1:25:43.640 --> 1:25:46.240 And I do think we need to have an honest conversation, 1:25:46.360 --> 1:25:48.439 and I do think we need to be clear about 1:25:48.479 --> 1:25:49.280 how we do science. 1:25:49.320 --> 1:25:51.880 Something we need to be able to explain. And you're 1:25:51.960 --> 1:25:55.400 absolutely right, which we didn't do very well is Look, 1:25:55.479 --> 1:25:58.280 we are working with information we have at hand. We're 1:25:58.280 --> 1:26:01.720 doing everything we can may change when it changes, our 1:26:01.720 --> 1:26:02.880 recommendations are going to. 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:05.320 Change too, And that is tough. 1:26:05.600 --> 1:26:07.920 That is a tough message to get across because people 1:26:08.000 --> 1:26:11.440 don't like nuance like that. People don't like the uncertainty 1:26:11.439 --> 1:26:14.680 of that. People want to know yes or no absolutely, 1:26:14.720 --> 1:26:18.800 and sometimes it's hard. It's hard to find good communicators 1:26:18.840 --> 1:26:21.200 and science to do that. But that you're exactly right 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:24.760 is incumbent upon us as doctors who have a sub 1:26:24.760 --> 1:26:28.200 stack like yours, of a podcast like mine, who are 1:26:28.600 --> 1:26:33.120 academics who have a reach to students and beyond to 1:26:33.479 --> 1:26:34.719 communicate these things. 1:26:34.800 --> 1:26:36.320 And even though it would be. 1:26:36.360 --> 1:26:41.160 Awesome for the next four years my podcast was just 1:26:41.280 --> 1:26:44.920 about farts and poop, I know I have to do 1:26:45.040 --> 1:26:47.360 a lot of this stuff because I know how important. 1:26:47.400 --> 1:26:50.719 This is now more than ever, So I totally agree 1:26:51.040 --> 1:26:53.240 it's going to start with conversations. 1:26:53.720 --> 1:26:56.760 I think that's a big difference between this is the 1:26:56.800 --> 1:26:58.680 information we have available when were doing our best with it. 1:26:58.720 --> 1:27:01.440 When we get new information, we'll do something different if 1:27:01.479 --> 1:27:04.360 that's what that information points to. And these people are 1:27:04.400 --> 1:27:07.320 acting out of malice to deprive you of your rights 1:27:07.439 --> 1:27:10.880 or you know, which is sometimes what's been suggested by 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:13.240 some people, and like, I think a good way to 1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:15.760 defeat that, as you say, it's communicating around it. It 1:27:15.840 --> 1:27:18.640 is very sad that, Like when I was doing the 1:27:18.720 --> 1:27:22.680 research for my PhD dissertation, I wrote about First I 1:27:22.680 --> 1:27:25.400 wrote about violence and the Anarchist Builders Union for my masters, 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:28.519 and then I wrote about public health and popular sport 1:27:28.560 --> 1:27:30.920 in the nineteen thirties in Barcelona, And a lot of 1:27:30.960 --> 1:27:34.000 what you saw anarchists doing in Barcelona in the nineteen 1:27:34.040 --> 1:27:37.479 thirties was talking to people about tuberculosis, educating people about 1:27:37.520 --> 1:27:41.920 tuberculosis and explaining what tuberculosis was and where it came from, 1:27:42.479 --> 1:27:47.000 and like that was in nineteen thirty one, and how. 1:27:46.880 --> 1:27:49.880 Far we've come, baby, wow, wow. 1:27:49.920 --> 1:27:52.360 Yeah, it's great. There were some other things from the 1:27:52.439 --> 1:27:55.840 nineteen thirties, which have also made an unwelcome return. Tuberculosis 1:27:55.880 --> 1:27:58.760 is not the only one. There's also the Nazi salute 1:27:58.800 --> 1:28:04.280 in large public gather to the United States, which yeah, 1:28:04.479 --> 1:28:06.040 I don't know, and I guess i'd answer for them 1:28:06.040 --> 1:28:08.080 both in the nineteen thirties, and they're the same answers 1:28:08.200 --> 1:28:22.760 that apply now. I think people like people will be 1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:25.479 distressed by this, right, like a lot of people of 1:28:25.600 --> 1:28:28.040 my age and younger. I guess it's folks a bit 1:28:28.040 --> 1:28:30.720 younger than me for the larger part, Like the pandemic 1:28:31.240 --> 1:28:34.639 was a life defining event for a lot of younger folks, right, 1:28:34.720 --> 1:28:37.160 and it was a scary thing. It still is a 1:28:37.160 --> 1:28:40.360 scary thing, Like getting COVID still really sucks. And I 1:28:40.360 --> 1:28:42.680 know people who have long COVID and the thought of 1:28:42.720 --> 1:28:47.120 that is petrifying to me. People will be genuinely anxious 1:28:47.200 --> 1:28:51.600 now right at this potential dismantling of the public health apparatus, 1:28:51.640 --> 1:28:57.240 that rise in vaccine hesitancy, less funding for research, such 1:28:57.320 --> 1:29:01.759 that if we enter another pandemic with some novel infectious disease, 1:29:02.280 --> 1:29:04.400 we won't be able to respond as fast. Right. The 1:29:04.439 --> 1:29:07.200 response to COVID, for the criticisms of it like the 1:29:07.240 --> 1:29:10.080 speed with which we had vaccines was amazing. Some of 1:29:10.120 --> 1:29:13.760 that came from like Vancousca's college that UCSD actually all right, 1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:17.559 like sult I guess which is next door with free parking? 1:29:17.560 --> 1:29:18.680 Which is nice? 1:29:19.400 --> 1:29:22.720 So like, what would you say to people, because this 1:29:22.760 --> 1:29:24.479 is a thing I've seen more and more among folks 1:29:24.560 --> 1:29:26.519 who you know, who are friends of mine, right, is 1:29:26.560 --> 1:29:32.240 like real worry about infectious disease, real concern about new 1:29:32.360 --> 1:29:35.920 variants of COVID or about you know, the bird flu 1:29:36.120 --> 1:29:39.240 is one, right with these other infectious diseases. I saw 1:29:39.280 --> 1:29:42.599 fifty people have died of it as yet unexplained disease 1:29:42.640 --> 1:29:45.519 in Congo recently. What would you say to those people? 1:29:45.960 --> 1:29:48.280 Because they are concerns are somewhat legitimate, Right, Like, if 1:29:48.320 --> 1:29:50.200 we go into another pandemic, we're not going to be 1:29:50.400 --> 1:29:54.360 anywhere near as effective as we were in twenty twenty 1:29:54.640 --> 1:29:57.120 because of all these combination of reasons we've discussed. 1:29:57.280 --> 1:29:59.760 That's a hard question to answer. I would say, let me, 1:30:00.720 --> 1:30:04.559 you know, I think that the COVID pandemic, Yes, there 1:30:04.600 --> 1:30:06.479 are a lot of things that went well. The vaccine 1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:09.760 development was phenomenal, I mean a revolutionary. I mean, who 1:30:09.760 --> 1:30:13.160 would have expected that to happen. However, it also just 1:30:13.200 --> 1:30:16.800 revealed how shattered our public health system really is in 1:30:16.880 --> 1:30:22.200 terms of messaging, even detection, spreading information. Even the vaccine 1:30:22.520 --> 1:30:28.080 distribution was completely chaotic, Right, So so I don't want 1:30:28.080 --> 1:30:31.000 to say that, you know, the public health response during 1:30:31.000 --> 1:30:34.840 COVID was some sort of paragon to be emulated or replicated, right. 1:30:34.920 --> 1:30:38.439 So that said, though, absolutely, I mean, you know, how 1:30:38.479 --> 1:30:42.599 are we going to handle a new era of this 1:30:42.760 --> 1:30:45.559 what if you know, scenario where we don't know what 1:30:45.680 --> 1:30:48.639 virus is coming next. I mean, I'm seeing these days, 1:30:48.680 --> 1:30:51.280 I'm even seeing viruses that never caused the kind of 1:30:51.280 --> 1:30:54.599 respiratory failure in the past, they're doing it now, whether 1:30:54.600 --> 1:31:00.000 it's RSV, the respiratory syensitial virus, or even non COVID coronavirus, 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:02.680 which should just give you a cold the sniffles, and 1:31:02.760 --> 1:31:06.280 yet it's causing devastating, you know, pneumonias. So we're in 1:31:06.320 --> 1:31:08.960 a new era and you know, antibiotic resistance is not 1:31:09.479 --> 1:31:13.720 getting any less problematic. So what do we do in 1:31:13.760 --> 1:31:17.639 this era? Well, I think awareness is the first thing. Okay, 1:31:17.920 --> 1:31:22.320 awareness around Yes, I mean, these diseases are transmitted from 1:31:22.320 --> 1:31:25.880 person to person you know, we all know somebody who 1:31:26.320 --> 1:31:28.679 doesn't want to take a vaccine. I mean, I don't 1:31:28.720 --> 1:31:30.720 think there's that's a surprise to say we know of 1:31:30.760 --> 1:31:34.800 somebody or directly or maybe one degree of separation, right, 1:31:35.200 --> 1:31:37.960 And I think you need to have those community conversations. 1:31:38.000 --> 1:31:39.960 You need to have one on one conversations. Yes, it's 1:31:39.960 --> 1:31:42.320 going to be uncomfortable, but we got to talk about 1:31:42.360 --> 1:31:46.519 it and talk to your healthcare provider about it. I mean, yes, 1:31:46.560 --> 1:31:48.559 you can look up stuff on TikTok. Yes, you can 1:31:48.600 --> 1:31:53.000 look up stuff on Google or you name your online resource. 1:31:53.600 --> 1:31:57.200 But you want to have a person that can actually 1:31:57.360 --> 1:32:02.280 understand from years of living and living and breathing this stuff, 1:32:02.800 --> 1:32:05.400 and also who listens to you as a human being 1:32:05.800 --> 1:32:09.679 in the same community or somewhere nearabouts right to put 1:32:09.680 --> 1:32:12.959 together what the science says in some sort of meaningful 1:32:13.120 --> 1:32:17.080 way to you, uh, and not some anonymous you know 1:32:17.479 --> 1:32:20.880 resource that may or may not have all the you know, 1:32:21.000 --> 1:32:23.800 all the data their fingertips, you know. So so I 1:32:23.800 --> 1:32:27.080 guess it still goes back to how does anyone find 1:32:27.200 --> 1:32:31.040 reliable information? Where do you go when you've got questions? 1:32:31.160 --> 1:32:34.519 Most people want a human being who's lived and breathed 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:38.479 this with experience to help them navigate. I I certainly 1:32:38.520 --> 1:32:40.759 see that not just as a doctor, but as a friend, 1:32:41.400 --> 1:32:44.760 as a family member. I mean constantly, you know, they're 1:32:44.800 --> 1:32:47.400 asking me these things, and I would suggest that you 1:32:47.400 --> 1:32:51.800 know your audience may have connections both personally but also 1:32:51.920 --> 1:32:53.599 professionally to those. 1:32:53.520 --> 1:32:54.960 Folks that can help them navigate. 1:32:55.439 --> 1:32:57.680 You know, and to answer your question from my perspective, 1:32:57.760 --> 1:33:01.439 is a challenge. I I think people should be concerned. 1:33:01.920 --> 1:33:04.559 In fact, I just did two parter with one of 1:33:04.560 --> 1:33:09.920 the world's best virologists talking about the possible bird flu 1:33:10.040 --> 1:33:12.720 pandemic that could arise and all the threats that are 1:33:12.760 --> 1:33:15.479 out there, and so I do think there are some 1:33:15.520 --> 1:33:19.800 really significant, serious risks to be worried about. However, I'm 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.080 never gonna say there's nothing that can be done about it. 1:33:22.080 --> 1:33:24.680 There's plenty that can still be done about it. I 1:33:24.720 --> 1:33:27.559 still maintain hope in the medical community for what we're 1:33:27.600 --> 1:33:30.160 able to do and what we're able to accomplish, And 1:33:30.400 --> 1:33:32.519 to echo what I think both of you guys have 1:33:32.640 --> 1:33:34.960 said or would at least agree with, there's a lot 1:33:35.000 --> 1:33:38.120 of changes that we can make locally amongst our small 1:33:38.120 --> 1:33:40.800 sphere of influence and then growing out from there in 1:33:40.920 --> 1:33:45.559 terms of getting vaccinated, in terms of wearing masks when needed, 1:33:45.640 --> 1:33:47.360 or at least looking at the data with an open 1:33:47.400 --> 1:33:52.040 mind and sharing good resources. Because one thing that the 1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:55.639 younger population is good about, and what some of the 1:33:55.640 --> 1:34:00.879 people you're mentioning, James, is they're good at detecting online 1:34:01.200 --> 1:34:04.400 and that's a skill that needs to be honed for 1:34:04.520 --> 1:34:09.040 medical literacy as well, and I'm hopeful that that's going 1:34:09.120 --> 1:34:12.920 to continue to improve. Maybe stupid optimism, but I do 1:34:12.960 --> 1:34:15.200 believe the younger generation is going to continue to be 1:34:15.200 --> 1:34:18.200 better at that than the older generation, and I think 1:34:18.240 --> 1:34:20.599 that will help battle a lot of the misinformation that's 1:34:20.640 --> 1:34:22.720 out there. But there are things that they can do 1:34:22.760 --> 1:34:26.599 in fact, for getting back to the telehealthing. For example, 1:34:26.680 --> 1:34:30.200 talking about telemedicine slash telehealth as vnteche sort of broke 1:34:30.240 --> 1:34:33.160 down in terms of it being cut at the end 1:34:33.160 --> 1:34:35.559 of the month. There are people that are really pushing 1:34:35.560 --> 1:34:40.280 against that, including Rocana, who's here a legislator here in 1:34:40.600 --> 1:34:43.640 California who's proposed a new bill. I haven't been able 1:34:43.680 --> 1:34:46.040 to see any of the details of it, but there 1:34:46.080 --> 1:34:48.880 are a lot, including Amazon. By the way, Amazon is 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:51.599 one of like three hundred and fifty companies that have 1:34:51.640 --> 1:34:56.120 written a letter to the to Congress to help push 1:34:56.400 --> 1:35:00.000 for this funding. So if you can call a congres 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:03.000 if you can do that, if you can keep bothering 1:35:03.040 --> 1:35:06.080 them telling them how important it is, I think those 1:35:06.120 --> 1:35:07.920 are things that can help. So I think that's a 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:09.320 good place to start. 1:35:10.560 --> 1:35:12.080 Yeah, that's a really get piece of advice. 1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:14.439 If I could just follow up with that. I think 1:35:14.760 --> 1:35:18.400 part of what will help with the support for some 1:35:18.479 --> 1:35:21.559 of these programs is to take you know, take us 1:35:21.680 --> 1:35:24.320 take a few minutes to think about what the other 1:35:24.479 --> 1:35:26.760 side is worried about, right. I mean, we all know 1:35:26.920 --> 1:35:32.360 about the excesses of certain online bad actors. Who are 1:35:33.080 --> 1:35:38.040 they use telemedicine to promote you know, ADHD medications or 1:35:38.080 --> 1:35:42.760 other types of psychotropic medications, which was not it was 1:35:42.800 --> 1:35:45.680 not supported, and it actually caused harm. Right, So so 1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:50.799 there are things out there that are excesses and somewhat harmful. 1:35:51.280 --> 1:35:54.160 And if we could as a community sort of help 1:35:54.640 --> 1:35:58.280 frame the approach to dealing with some of those things 1:35:58.280 --> 1:36:01.559 and preventing some of those problems, then I think some 1:36:01.640 --> 1:36:05.320 of the support will kind of sort of shortself. I 1:36:05.360 --> 1:36:07.680 think the worry is if you open up the floodgates 1:36:07.720 --> 1:36:10.599 too wide, you know, human nature being what it is, 1:36:10.640 --> 1:36:13.920 it's going to encourage bad behavior. Not that anybody wants that, 1:36:14.040 --> 1:36:17.280 but there is something to be said about some scrutiny. Right, 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:20.760 So if we're the ones, and I completely support the 1:36:20.840 --> 1:36:23.599 use of tell medicine, but I also want to be 1:36:23.680 --> 1:36:27.639 careful about how to promote its thoughtful and safe use 1:36:28.120 --> 1:36:31.040 and wed that in the proposal and not just leave 1:36:31.080 --> 1:36:32.280 it for others to figure out. 1:36:32.520 --> 1:36:35.120 That I think would potentially. 1:36:35.240 --> 1:36:39.160 Change the conversation around while you just want this and 1:36:39.200 --> 1:36:40.439 we're not going to give it to you, like the 1:36:40.479 --> 1:36:43.479 standoff will will subside when you try to work it, 1:36:43.640 --> 1:36:46.200 work a partnership out as opposed to a give it 1:36:46.240 --> 1:36:48.559 to me or else kind of scenario. 1:36:48.640 --> 1:36:50.720 I don't disagree with that, but I also think you're 1:36:50.760 --> 1:36:55.720 giving those more credit than I would, which is to 1:36:55.720 --> 1:36:58.439 say that they actually, really, they really would focus and 1:36:58.520 --> 1:37:01.240 listen to I think what they've just done is literally, 1:37:01.640 --> 1:37:06.200 you know, take a chainsaw and cut away at major 1:37:06.400 --> 1:37:09.759 federal funding and then kind of seeing what was really 1:37:09.840 --> 1:37:12.719 bad about that and what wasn't and being like, oh, Okay, 1:37:12.960 --> 1:37:15.680 maybe we do need people in charge of nuclear security. 1:37:15.920 --> 1:37:18.439 Oh maybe this is popular, We'll put it back. You know, 1:37:19.479 --> 1:37:21.640 I kind of think that they're not taking as much 1:37:21.680 --> 1:37:24.479 attention or care. But I also do agree that the 1:37:24.520 --> 1:37:27.200 point is is valid. I mean, sure, is there fraud 1:37:27.680 --> 1:37:31.439 in some telemedicine? Yeah, I'm sure, probably small, very small percentage. 1:37:31.479 --> 1:37:34.120 But if we can specify its use, if we can 1:37:34.200 --> 1:37:37.800 be better about that, I agree, I'm all for it. 1:37:38.200 --> 1:37:40.760 Yeah, especially right now. I was just thinking, as you're 1:37:40.760 --> 1:37:43.720 talking about, like how important is people that accessing reproductive 1:37:43.760 --> 1:37:47.160 healthcare and being able to access reproductive healthcare wherever they are, 1:37:47.280 --> 1:37:51.760 and like how much more difficult that would be, right 1:37:51.800 --> 1:37:53.680 if people didn't have ten of medicine appointments. So I 1:37:53.680 --> 1:37:56.120 think we've spoken about before on the show. But yeah, 1:37:56.200 --> 1:37:57.960 I'm sure there are some school cases. I'm sure there 1:37:57.960 --> 1:38:01.320 are a bunch of CIS gender guys getting gender affirming 1:38:01.360 --> 1:38:06.559 hormonal care through telemedicine who probably could go without and 1:38:06.600 --> 1:38:10.240 be Okay, guys, I'd like to wrap up there, but 1:38:10.600 --> 1:38:12.280 I want to give you a chance both to You 1:38:12.400 --> 1:38:15.760 talked a lot about like science communication, So where can 1:38:15.800 --> 1:38:18.480 people find you online? Where can they see you communicating 1:38:18.560 --> 1:38:19.800 your medical knowledge? 1:38:19.960 --> 1:38:23.520 Okay, Well, so I thanks James, I have a substack. 1:38:23.560 --> 1:38:26.400 It's called Be a Health Architect. You can book me 1:38:26.479 --> 1:38:29.400 up at Be a Health Architect, and you know, I 1:38:29.439 --> 1:38:33.240 have a conversation there around an issue that certainly affects 1:38:33.280 --> 1:38:35.640 me and those around me, which is physician burnout, but 1:38:36.120 --> 1:38:38.759 in the larger sphere of healthcare professionals, it really touches 1:38:38.840 --> 1:38:43.920 everybody in healthcare. So that's where I'm posting actively. I'm 1:38:43.960 --> 1:38:47.960 also sharing that, you know, through various other avenues such 1:38:47.960 --> 1:38:51.000 as X and Blue Sky and other places, so you 1:38:51.040 --> 1:38:52.120 can you can find me there. 1:38:52.880 --> 1:38:54.880 Look forward to seeing you there. 1:38:55.320 --> 1:38:55.519 Yeah. 1:38:55.520 --> 1:38:59.000 I would also recommend Vintesha's substack if you're in the 1:38:59.040 --> 1:39:03.200 medical field in particular, I think you'll appreciate it. A 1:39:03.240 --> 1:39:07.360 focus on burnout is as important as it's ever been, 1:39:07.400 --> 1:39:09.719 if not much much more. I mean, we were talking 1:39:09.760 --> 1:39:14.200 about burnout and moral injury in doctors before COVID, and 1:39:14.280 --> 1:39:16.800 now you know, down a couple of years down the road, 1:39:16.840 --> 1:39:18.920 it's only worse. So I think it's really important and 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:21.400 I do recommend it, or you know, check out his 1:39:21.560 --> 1:39:24.879 latest article in the Los Angeles Times. As you mentioned before. 1:39:25.240 --> 1:39:28.559 As for me, find me on Blue Sky at Cave MD. 1:39:28.760 --> 1:39:31.920 But more importantly, just listen to the podcast The House 1:39:31.920 --> 1:39:34.639 of Pod. If you are a fan of this show, 1:39:34.720 --> 1:39:36.840 I think you're going to like The House of Pod 1:39:36.880 --> 1:39:38.639 if you haven't already given it a try. 1:39:39.080 --> 1:39:41.599 It's a lot of the same people that you hear. 1:39:41.520 --> 1:39:44.400 On this show. On the House of Pod. James included 1:39:44.439 --> 1:39:46.439 he's going to be coming back to talk about the 1:39:46.479 --> 1:39:49.320 measles and with an author of a new book down 1:39:49.400 --> 1:39:53.439 there about the measles outbreak. And you know, we take 1:39:53.439 --> 1:39:56.519 a look at grifters, medical grifters, We take a look 1:39:56.600 --> 1:40:00.400 at some people that would be considered medical contrarians. We 1:40:00.439 --> 1:40:03.599 take a look at some of the quackery in medicine 1:40:03.600 --> 1:40:07.479 as well. So I think you'll appreciate this show. If 1:40:07.479 --> 1:40:10.639 you like the whole behind the Bastards verse, I think 1:40:10.680 --> 1:40:12.880 you'll get into the House of Podso, so check us 1:40:12.920 --> 1:40:15.080 out where you get your podcasts. 1:40:15.320 --> 1:40:17.400 Yeah, great, Thank you so much for joining us. Guys, 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:18.120 really appreciate it. 1:40:18.120 --> 1:40:18.880 Thanks, thank you. 1:40:39.479 --> 1:40:42.840 Welcome to and it could happen here Special Report. I'm 1:40:42.880 --> 1:40:46.080 Garrison Davis. I'm joined by James Stout and Sophie right 1:40:46.160 --> 1:40:49.320 when you're in so exactly, we are here to discuss 1:40:49.960 --> 1:40:55.000 Trump's first Joint Session speech of his second term. This 1:40:55.160 --> 1:40:57.280 is basically the equivalent of a state of the Union, 1:40:57.400 --> 1:40:59.439 except it's too early to really give a good state 1:40:59.439 --> 1:41:01.639 of the Union, even though this month has felt kind 1:41:01.640 --> 1:41:05.080 of like a year. So we are doing a special 1:41:05.120 --> 1:41:09.439 report here in addition to our regular executive Disorder episode, 1:41:09.800 --> 1:41:12.280 because there is just so much to talk about that 1:41:12.320 --> 1:41:16.920 we cannot fit it all in our regular ed pause 1:41:17.760 --> 1:41:23.640 pause for effect. Okay, guess it was us speaking of 1:41:23.960 --> 1:41:31.240 This was the longest Wow Session speech in American history, 1:41:32.040 --> 1:41:34.519 and man, it felt like it lasted forever. 1:41:34.800 --> 1:41:37.600 Yeah, I was gonna say, and boy, howdy did it 1:41:37.720 --> 1:41:39.400 feel never ending? 1:41:39.640 --> 1:41:41.479 It went on so long. 1:41:41.760 --> 1:41:43.519 Not a great feat of ar tree. Really. 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:45.960 I was supposed to watch some yawie with a friend 1:41:46.439 --> 1:41:48.960 last night and they came over and I was like, haha, 1:41:48.960 --> 1:41:52.719 I gotcha. Actually I have to watch this this speech first. 1:41:52.760 --> 1:41:56.840 Don't worry. Usually it's only like an hour or so. Two. 1:41:57.040 --> 1:41:59.639 I did the exact same Two hours later, I did 1:41:59.640 --> 1:42:03.320 the exact same scam to my friend Sarah. She was like, 1:42:03.360 --> 1:42:08.440 you know, I seriously love you, right because this is horrible, horrible. 1:42:09.400 --> 1:42:11.360 Two hours later, it finally ends and they're like, Okay, 1:42:11.400 --> 1:42:13.720 we can finally watch yawee, right, I'm like, no, no, no, 1:42:13.800 --> 1:42:19.200 I have to watch the Democratic response speech. Don't worry. 1:42:19.240 --> 1:42:22.960 It should be shorter, and thankfully it was. Yeah, but yeah, 1:42:23.040 --> 1:42:25.719 let's let's just start by talking about like the beginning 1:42:25.720 --> 1:42:29.120 of this speech, or rather with the general overview of 1:42:29.160 --> 1:42:32.439 this speech was. This was not a leaning across the 1:42:32.520 --> 1:42:35.960 aisle speech, right, This wasn't trying to unite the country. No, 1:42:36.080 --> 1:42:39.160 it was not, but you know, just cater to core 1:42:39.360 --> 1:42:42.439 like mega supporters and new issues at the center of 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:45.720 the modern right wing media machine. The version of the 1:42:45.760 --> 1:42:49.799 speech I watched on ABC frequently cut to Matt Walsh 1:42:49.840 --> 1:42:53.559 and Ben Shapiro sitting together overlooking Congress as they were 1:42:53.600 --> 1:42:56.000 special guests of the President and the First Lady. 1:42:56.240 --> 1:42:59.880 Yes, magic, they did they did this. They did this 1:43:00.280 --> 1:43:03.160 on CNN. I switched back and forth between a couple 1:43:03.160 --> 1:43:06.160 of channels. I noted this to our team. But when 1:43:06.160 --> 1:43:09.479 I first looked up, like what time the speech was starting, 1:43:09.479 --> 1:43:11.800 I turned on my TV and went to see it 1:43:11.920 --> 1:43:15.280 in and I happened upon the them talking about if 1:43:15.320 --> 1:43:20.720 Dems should not applaud or if they should heckle, and 1:43:20.960 --> 1:43:23.800 some motherfucker I don't care about said that Gems should 1:43:23.880 --> 1:43:27.439 find places to applaud him to show unity. 1:43:27.680 --> 1:43:28.000 Cool. 1:43:28.479 --> 1:43:31.360 Sure, yeah, mm hmm, that's always worked well. 1:43:31.560 --> 1:43:36.080 Dems should find places to applaud him, to. 1:43:36.479 --> 1:43:39.879 Draw to the king, the king for ruining the government, 1:43:40.760 --> 1:43:44.519 firing all the workers. Give him a clap. Why don't you, Sorry, James, 1:43:44.560 --> 1:43:46.400 I realized that got a little insensitive. 1:43:46.840 --> 1:43:50.000 Wow, yeah, Garrison, this is why we have to watch 1:43:50.080 --> 1:43:53.200 those videos where the bad actors talk about how they do. 1:43:53.360 --> 1:43:56.400 Not anymore talking about our workplace harassment videos. 1:43:56.439 --> 1:43:59.439 EI is over, James, No more of those videos here 1:43:59.479 --> 1:44:01.920 in the freeze state of Georgia. That's illegal. 1:44:02.160 --> 1:44:06.240 Unfortunately, here in California, I have approximately seventy five little 1:44:06.240 --> 1:44:09.519 little red bells and I log into my work day. 1:44:09.560 --> 1:44:12.599 But like a single time, early in the speech, Trump 1:44:12.680 --> 1:44:17.320 asked Democrats why not join us in celebrating America. After 1:44:17.360 --> 1:44:20.639 he complained, I could cure any disease, and these people 1:44:20.640 --> 1:44:24.320 sitting right here, the Democrats, they would not cheer. I 1:44:24.320 --> 1:44:26.439 could cure any disease, and these people wouldn't cheer. 1:44:26.920 --> 1:44:29.679 No, No, that was weird. I mean, like some Dems 1:44:29.720 --> 1:44:32.599 didn't even show up. They had the subcab of wearing 1:44:32.680 --> 1:44:36.120 certain they did the same performative bullshit they always do. 1:44:36.400 --> 1:44:38.960 And they had what I can only describe as like 1:44:39.560 --> 1:44:42.800 church paddles the status statistic signs on it. 1:44:43.240 --> 1:44:43.679 They weren't. 1:44:43.720 --> 1:44:46.639 They weren't even like I mean, like come. 1:44:46.520 --> 1:44:52.599 On, like a good description. But no, some Dems did 1:44:52.640 --> 1:44:56.840 not show up in protest. Others were black, kind of. 1:44:56.840 --> 1:44:57.639 Like in mourning. 1:44:58.080 --> 1:44:59.920 Yeah, who cares. 1:45:00.040 --> 1:45:03.280 Of the women's caucus were pink, very cool, very feminist, 1:45:04.120 --> 1:45:07.320 and others were the colors of the Ukrainian flag. Sure 1:45:07.840 --> 1:45:11.240 that will help, but you know, Trump just pointed towards 1:45:11.280 --> 1:45:13.559 the Democrat side of the chamber throughout the night and 1:45:13.680 --> 1:45:16.680 just referred to them as the radical left lunatics. Like this, 1:45:17.200 --> 1:45:19.720 this was not across the aisle speed. 1:45:19.560 --> 1:45:20.559 No, it wasn't. 1:45:20.720 --> 1:45:24.599 This was this was, if anything, emphasizing the divisions within 1:45:24.640 --> 1:45:25.120 the country. 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:28.320 One of the things that happened before the speech even 1:45:28.360 --> 1:45:35.000 started was like he drove in with Milania and Elon. 1:45:35.040 --> 1:45:37.000 First lady and first bitch boy. 1:45:37.080 --> 1:45:44.200 Yeah, first buddy, Garrison, first buddy is the official term. 1:45:43.920 --> 1:45:47.840 First buddy. Yeah, I don't know, but like you know, 1:45:48.000 --> 1:45:48.920 Trump starts off the. 1:45:48.960 --> 1:45:52.240 Speech with America is back, and like. 1:45:52.240 --> 1:45:55.000 How far back are we talking? Because you're not wrong. 1:45:57.120 --> 1:46:00.920 Yeah, like eighteen sixty four, I think it's the it's 1:46:00.960 --> 1:46:01.280 the goal. 1:46:01.320 --> 1:46:03.439 I mean, this is the same phrase that that Biden 1:46:03.560 --> 1:46:06.040 opened his first speech with as well. I think Biden 1:46:06.080 --> 1:46:09.080 was referring to, like we are back to pre Trump America, 1:46:09.640 --> 1:46:11.840 and now Trump is using this phrase to refer to 1:46:11.920 --> 1:46:15.160 like this like mythical America. Right sure, but no. Trump 1:46:15.240 --> 1:46:20.759 took the stage to USA chance throughout yeah, thout the rotunda. 1:46:21.000 --> 1:46:21.360 That was. 1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:23.960 You know, I grew up watching the Houses of Parliament, 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:28.559 so I'm used to like the boomers getting unruly, but 1:46:28.680 --> 1:46:29.759 this was something else. 1:46:30.160 --> 1:46:33.000 They're just so fairal it's weird. 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:36.960 So cheesy. The speech was outlining like a new golden 1:46:37.000 --> 1:46:40.360 age of America and the renewal of the American dream. 1:46:40.760 --> 1:46:44.679 Trump talked about how he has accomplished in forty three 1:46:44.760 --> 1:46:48.120 days more than most administrations do in four to eight years, 1:46:48.520 --> 1:46:50.320 and that we're just getting started. 1:46:50.400 --> 1:46:50.679 Cool. 1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:54.400 He referred to this wide popular mandate a quote, a 1:46:54.439 --> 1:46:56.400 mandate like this has not been seen in many decades, 1:46:57.120 --> 1:46:59.879 referring to like winning all swing states, winning the electoral 1:47:00.360 --> 1:47:03.000 and the popular vote, and reference to this mandate kind 1:47:03.000 --> 1:47:06.120 of sparked the big boo, big like disruption of the. 1:47:06.160 --> 1:47:12.160 Night, specifically when he started saying we won the popular vote. 1:47:11.960 --> 1:47:14.920 Which like it's heavily disputed, Like, I. 1:47:14.840 --> 1:47:17.559 Don't know, I don't think that that's not specifically what 1:47:17.760 --> 1:47:18.880 mister Green was talking about. 1:47:19.200 --> 1:47:23.679 I'm not necessarily talking about when he specifically was saying 1:47:24.000 --> 1:47:27.519 that's when the crowd had their biggest they did reaction 1:47:27.640 --> 1:47:31.040 of the night, which like weird in my opinion. 1:47:31.200 --> 1:47:33.639 It's great. It's the thing that Democrats are doing now, 1:47:33.680 --> 1:47:37.320 which is trying to be like the Republicans but lib 1:47:37.680 --> 1:47:40.439 like kind of just I suppose. 1:47:40.439 --> 1:47:43.800 But not really because they didn't follow fucking through. 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:48.600 Without any like strength, like without any actual like momentum. 1:47:47.960 --> 1:47:49.840 Right, like we saw like the sort of blue and 1:47:49.880 --> 1:47:52.840 non attempts at election denial like after the election, and 1:47:52.960 --> 1:47:55.960 like I don't think that's what they were doing here, agreed. 1:47:56.160 --> 1:47:59.719 They gave off this like yeah, this very ineffectual kind 1:47:59.720 --> 1:48:04.080 of a half fast attempt at booing. And then aside 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:06.840 from Green, they they'll just sit down and wave their 1:48:06.840 --> 1:48:07.559 ping pong things. 1:48:07.680 --> 1:48:11.360 Yeah, so representative of Al Green from Texas old man 1:48:11.400 --> 1:48:12.000 with Caine. 1:48:12.439 --> 1:48:14.640 It's a good cane. It's got a gold handle, like 1:48:14.720 --> 1:48:15.240 I thought. 1:48:15.040 --> 1:48:16.200 It was snazzy. 1:48:17.320 --> 1:48:18.680 I thought, I mean, it's a sort of cane you 1:48:18.760 --> 1:48:20.519 normally see a sword coming out of if I'm. 1:48:20.439 --> 1:48:22.880 Mind, Yeah, that would have been cooler. That would have 1:48:22.920 --> 1:48:25.719 been cooler. But instead he doesn't waves the cane around 1:48:25.800 --> 1:48:28.559 talking about how this mandate doesn't mean that there's a 1:48:28.560 --> 1:48:32.400 mandate to like, you know, cut medicaid, cut medicare. That 1:48:32.479 --> 1:48:35.240 was specifically what he was talking about. Television mics did 1:48:35.320 --> 1:48:36.080 not really pick that up. 1:48:36.280 --> 1:48:39.160 No, and a lot of reporting didn't either, which was shitty. 1:48:39.200 --> 1:48:41.519 I thought, like, yeah, a lot of reporting just mentioned 1:48:41.520 --> 1:48:43.840 that he had shouted and not what he had shouted about, 1:48:43.880 --> 1:48:46.880 which I think is like, really, when you like, you see, 1:48:46.920 --> 1:48:49.120 what the media is doing is serving as like the 1:48:49.400 --> 1:48:52.000 propaganderam of a certain class of people when they're more 1:48:52.080 --> 1:48:56.000 upset that he was shouting than that he was protesting 1:48:56.320 --> 1:48:57.960 the fact that people are going to lose their healthcare 1:48:57.960 --> 1:48:59.080 and probably die because of it. 1:48:59.680 --> 1:49:03.440 Yeah, and like Trump started like yelling over these protests. 1:49:03.800 --> 1:49:05.439 There was like a brief maybe like like you know, 1:49:05.880 --> 1:49:08.960 minute or so, like yelling match in the chamber. Mike 1:49:09.040 --> 1:49:12.200 Johnson was like what do I do here? Eventually, you know, 1:49:12.479 --> 1:49:16.960 Mike Johnson threatens mister Green gives warning and eventually directs 1:49:17.000 --> 1:49:19.479 the Sergeant of Arms to restore order and remove him 1:49:19.479 --> 1:49:23.680 from the chambers. Not a regular scene in American politics, 1:49:23.840 --> 1:49:26.200 but a scene that you might be more familiar with 1:49:26.720 --> 1:49:33.080 in overseas politics, and specifically in democracies that are in trouble. 1:49:33.800 --> 1:49:35.599 You'll have more and more scenes like this. 1:49:35.920 --> 1:49:38.599 Yeah, we can't get any smoke grenades like you see 1:49:38.600 --> 1:49:39.200 in Serbia. 1:49:39.280 --> 1:49:41.519 You know it's still twenty twenty five, James, we still 1:49:41.520 --> 1:49:42.400 have three more. 1:49:42.760 --> 1:49:45.840 Three more years, three more years soon to break out 1:49:45.880 --> 1:49:47.040 the ass off smoke grenades. 1:49:47.479 --> 1:49:50.599 Whether or not this is like, you know, performative or cringe, 1:49:51.080 --> 1:49:54.120 it's like it's something that demonstrates, Hey, like this, this 1:49:54.240 --> 1:49:57.360 actually isn't normal, more than holding up a cheesy sign 1:49:57.439 --> 1:49:59.920 next to Trump reading this is not normal, which is 1:50:00.080 --> 1:50:03.040 some others did in protest. This actually is treating it 1:50:03.080 --> 1:50:06.439 like a serious situation, and more Democrats should have done this. 1:50:06.680 --> 1:50:09.360 They should have staggered their protests throughout the entirety of 1:50:09.400 --> 1:50:14.040 the speech, continually disrupting it, making this speech basically unable 1:50:14.040 --> 1:50:17.840 to end. Pushing this past midnight, having an endless procession 1:50:18.280 --> 1:50:21.360 of people having to be escorted out, you should force 1:50:21.439 --> 1:50:24.479 Congress to censure half of the sit in Congress people like, 1:50:24.520 --> 1:50:28.519 if this really is like an actual existential threat to 1:50:28.720 --> 1:50:33.160 our democracy, if Trump represents right now a genuine constitutional crisis, 1:50:33.280 --> 1:50:35.920 which he does, he is ignoring the courts, the people 1:50:35.960 --> 1:50:37.599 in Congress should fucking act like it. 1:50:38.920 --> 1:50:44.080 They should have gone literally, single file, one by one. 1:50:44.120 --> 1:50:46.920 Stagger it every like three minutes so that he just 1:50:47.080 --> 1:50:50.840 is unable to finish the speech. Have Mike Johnson do 1:50:50.880 --> 1:50:54.519 this every time because he was thrown. He was thrown, 1:50:54.600 --> 1:50:56.439 and they should have continued to do this. The fact 1:50:56.479 --> 1:50:59.200 that no one else did is pretty disappointing. 1:50:59.280 --> 1:51:02.400 You could see Ants was very uncomfortable as well, Like. 1:51:02.680 --> 1:51:05.240 He didn't have that nervous smile for most of well. 1:51:05.120 --> 1:51:07.960 He normally does when he's confronted with a human being. 1:51:08.120 --> 1:51:11.800 But later on the speech, after Trump talked about you know, 1:51:11.880 --> 1:51:14.360 trans women in sports and the price of eggs, you 1:51:14.479 --> 1:51:18.400 had you had a group of Democrats wearing resist t 1:51:18.560 --> 1:51:21.519 shirts walk out of the speech in protest, and like 1:51:21.880 --> 1:51:24.840 that's so much more pathetic than actually like standing up 1:51:24.880 --> 1:51:27.920 and talking about how this guy is ignoring the courts 1:51:28.000 --> 1:51:30.640 and is actually breaking the constitution. Like that's what they 1:51:30.640 --> 1:51:32.960 should have all been doing instead of wearing resist lim 1:51:33.040 --> 1:51:34.280 merch performatively. 1:51:35.240 --> 1:51:39.040 Yeah, you could ran on, you know, to go parodying this, 1:51:39.280 --> 1:51:41.800 but you actually couldn't because they would just do that 1:51:41.880 --> 1:51:44.880 next time, Like if they really think this is the last, 1:51:45.400 --> 1:51:47.160 the last joint session of Congress, the ever going to 1:51:47.160 --> 1:51:48.719 have They sure didn't act like it or whatever. 1:51:49.400 --> 1:51:51.840 But this is going to be the first ad break 1:51:51.880 --> 1:51:55.720 in a series of two mid episode ad breaks that 1:51:55.760 --> 1:51:59.160 we are playing on this show. So here's the ads. 1:52:08.640 --> 1:52:10.720 All right, we are back. I hope you pick up 1:52:10.760 --> 1:52:14.120 your new ad break themed T shirts to walk around 1:52:14.120 --> 1:52:15.600 in protest of capitalism. 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:17.440 Yep, not made by unions. 1:52:18.200 --> 1:52:23.599 All right, let's talk about transgenderism. One of the first 1:52:23.640 --> 1:52:27.920 topics Trump discussed at length was the anti trans culture war, 1:52:28.520 --> 1:52:31.519 declaring that the government will be woke no longer. 1:52:31.840 --> 1:52:34.639 Oh God, that fully fucking sent me. I've forgotten about that. 1:52:35.280 --> 1:52:38.440 It's just so. As the drunk old man at pub. 1:52:38.439 --> 1:52:42.120 He bragged about about signing an executive order establishing that 1:52:42.160 --> 1:52:45.280 there's only two genders, as well as an order preventing 1:52:45.360 --> 1:52:49.880 quote unquote men from playing in women's sports. He first 1:52:50.080 --> 1:52:53.120 pointed out to someone in the audience who was a 1:52:53.200 --> 1:52:58.320 former volleyball player who got hurt by a volleyball and 1:52:58.360 --> 1:53:02.320 then decided to quit the sport. And they now blame 1:53:02.439 --> 1:53:06.600 this on the fact that a trendswoman was allegedly responsible 1:53:07.080 --> 1:53:11.880 for probably spiking the volleyball, which yes, is painful. 1:53:11.720 --> 1:53:14.799 For playing sport the way that everyone else plays sport. 1:53:15.360 --> 1:53:17.040 Yeah, for trying to win. 1:53:17.320 --> 1:53:21.120 Yeah, in a team of volleyball context. So yes, this 1:53:21.200 --> 1:53:23.880 was the first kind of of these political props that 1:53:23.880 --> 1:53:27.400 Trump brought along to kind of point out and demonstrate 1:53:27.439 --> 1:53:29.799 some of the things that he was talking about. Frankly, 1:53:29.920 --> 1:53:31.960 it just seems like this person was not a very 1:53:31.960 --> 1:53:36.160 good volleyball player. But the next example Trump pointed to, 1:53:36.600 --> 1:53:40.360 I think James can speak better on But Trump said 1:53:40.360 --> 1:53:42.439 that essentially there was quote unquote a man who beat 1:53:42.439 --> 1:53:45.040 a woman in a race by five hours, to the 1:53:45.200 --> 1:53:46.959 shock of the audience. 1:53:47.400 --> 1:53:49.840 Yeah, So look, it was shocked listeners to hear that 1:53:49.880 --> 1:53:52.320 most of what he said it's wrong. He directly referenced 1:53:52.320 --> 1:53:54.920 a friend of mine. He was referring to Austin Cillips, 1:53:54.920 --> 1:53:57.560 who is a woman. She's a trans woman, she's a 1:53:57.640 --> 1:53:59.720 very good cyclist. The reason she was doing the race, 1:53:59.760 --> 1:54:02.320 which see Arizona trail race. It's an eight hundred mile 1:54:02.400 --> 1:54:04.479 ultra endurance race like I used to do these kind 1:54:04.520 --> 1:54:06.840 of things. The reason she was doing it is because 1:54:06.840 --> 1:54:10.679 of a UCI Union Cyclic International that governing bodies stopped 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:13.080 trans women competing, right, so she did these races which 1:54:13.120 --> 1:54:16.920 were not sanctioned by them. She did get the record. 1:54:17.200 --> 1:54:19.800 The previous holder of the record was a CIS man. 1:54:20.960 --> 1:54:24.200 That CIS man had previously beaten. A CIS woman got 1:54:24.280 --> 1:54:27.839 Leo Wilcox. It's interesting that in this particular discipline, actually 1:54:28.000 --> 1:54:31.240 like SIS, women have been doing as well as it's 1:54:31.280 --> 1:54:34.840 not better than men like Lee. Wilcox owns nearly all 1:54:34.880 --> 1:54:37.040 the long distance records in the United States. She's a 1:54:37.040 --> 1:54:40.680 phenomenal athlete. The idea that there's some inherent biological advantages 1:54:41.280 --> 1:54:44.520 it's particularly nonsense in this sphere of cycling. But the 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:46.440 reason that she was five hours ahead is because this 1:54:46.520 --> 1:54:49.680 race is eight hundred miles long, like those those records 1:54:49.720 --> 1:54:52.200 are broken by that kind of period, not all the time, 1:54:52.280 --> 1:54:55.400 but when you have athletes like Austin coming from the 1:54:55.520 --> 1:54:58.520 higher paying areas of the sport into this which has 1:54:58.560 --> 1:55:01.120 been a much less well a much smaller area of 1:55:01.160 --> 1:55:03.480 the sport, you're going to see these records getting broken, 1:55:03.520 --> 1:55:06.800 and again she broke a record that was held by assistude. 1:55:07.120 --> 1:55:07.480 Crazy. 1:55:07.560 --> 1:55:09.440 Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous. 1:55:09.840 --> 1:55:13.440 I mean, like the level of like propaganda and lie. 1:55:13.840 --> 1:55:16.360 I mean, my mom watched the speech and she was like, 1:55:16.840 --> 1:55:20.160 that doesn't seem possible. And I was like, because it's 1:55:20.360 --> 1:55:21.680 all bullshit. 1:55:22.080 --> 1:55:24.879 Yeah, it's just the second time he's picked on Austin 1:55:24.960 --> 1:55:27.320 and obviously it pisces me off. You could read her 1:55:27.400 --> 1:55:29.120 rop ed in The Guardian where she wrote about this 1:55:29.120 --> 1:55:31.120 the last time he cited her and his executive order, 1:55:31.160 --> 1:55:33.440 and I would encourage you to so. 1:55:33.640 --> 1:55:38.400 After this initial dive into the trans topic, Trump followed 1:55:38.480 --> 1:55:40.760 up by talking about how egg prices are out of 1:55:40.800 --> 1:55:45.000 control take a shot, which happened about fifteen minutes into 1:55:45.000 --> 1:55:47.840 the speech. But near the end of the speech, Trump 1:55:47.920 --> 1:55:52.040 returned to the trends topic, pointing to the anti trans 1:55:52.200 --> 1:55:57.520 activist mom named January Little John No Comment whose kid 1:55:57.800 --> 1:56:02.240 secretly used they then pronouns at school, with Trump discussing 1:56:02.280 --> 1:56:05.760 how wrong it is for schools to secretly transition students 1:56:06.040 --> 1:56:09.640 and like this actually just isn't true. Surprise, surprise, the 1:56:09.720 --> 1:56:11.920 parents in this case knew that their kid wanted to 1:56:12.000 --> 1:56:14.240 use a different name and pronouns at school, and actually 1:56:14.240 --> 1:56:17.400 were the ones to inform the school of this, according 1:56:17.400 --> 1:56:21.600 to school emails obtained by CNN. Not that this matters. 1:56:21.600 --> 1:56:23.760 And I will say during this clip when when the 1:56:23.760 --> 1:56:26.760 camera cuts towards his mom, like all of the people 1:56:26.960 --> 1:56:29.000 that were used as political props that were cut to, 1:56:29.440 --> 1:56:31.480 they all had the most bizarre look on their face, 1:56:31.880 --> 1:56:34.440 like completely blank, like soulis not even like get really 1:56:34.440 --> 1:56:37.080 excited this this woman who who's you know, kind of 1:56:37.080 --> 1:56:39.560 a one of also the faces of like Florida's don't 1:56:39.560 --> 1:56:43.000 say gay bill just yeah, completely like blank expression because 1:56:43.160 --> 1:56:45.400 this thing that the president's talking about is just a 1:56:45.440 --> 1:56:47.800 flat out lie. And like you know it, you lost 1:56:47.840 --> 1:56:50.920 a federal lawsuit over this lie. But here you are 1:56:51.000 --> 1:56:53.600 on national TV now, the prop of the president. 1:56:53.840 --> 1:56:56.839 Yeah, on national TV, in front of both hanswers of Congress, 1:56:57.000 --> 1:57:00.000 attacking your own kid, yep, for trying to be here. 1:57:00.040 --> 1:57:01.720 They want to be a subject on which you lost 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:02.320 a lawsuit. 1:57:02.600 --> 1:57:06.280 Like and then Trump directly asked Congress to pass a 1:57:06.280 --> 1:57:10.520 bill banning trans health care for children, saying wokeness is gone, 1:57:10.680 --> 1:57:12.320 our country will be woke. 1:57:12.200 --> 1:57:15.320 No longer whatever, such a loser. 1:57:16.120 --> 1:57:21.520 The next topic was Elon Musk's doge Trump essentially just 1:57:21.680 --> 1:57:25.880 read out a list that mischaracterized aid programs or scientific 1:57:25.880 --> 1:57:28.960 research grants, talking about how Health and Human Services paid 1:57:28.960 --> 1:57:33.360 for housing for displaced immigrants in the United States, money 1:57:33.400 --> 1:57:38.560 for Middle East Sesame Street for making mice transgender, and 1:57:39.120 --> 1:57:45.320 LGBTQ education in Africa, as well as DEI in Burma, 1:57:45.920 --> 1:57:49.040 which I will now pivot to James again to fill 1:57:49.040 --> 1:57:50.120 in some context here. 1:57:50.680 --> 1:57:53.760 Yeah, so I'm aware of this scholarship because I'm aware 1:57:53.760 --> 1:57:56.240 of the people within the Simpil disobedience movement who are 1:57:56.240 --> 1:57:58.320 talking to the State Department about it, and they begged 1:57:58.360 --> 1:58:00.920 for it not to be a DEI thing because they 1:58:00.960 --> 1:58:04.240 could see this happening. Right. It's the Lincoln Scholarship program 1:58:04.400 --> 1:58:06.160 our linked to it in the show notes. But it 1:58:06.280 --> 1:58:09.400 exists to empower people in Burma write with technical skills 1:58:09.840 --> 1:58:13.840 and to rise up young leaders in Burma. And it's 1:58:13.880 --> 1:58:17.320 not a DEI program, but for some reason it was 1:58:17.400 --> 1:58:21.280 categorized as such. Right. It talks about respecting diversity because, 1:58:21.320 --> 1:58:25.000 as long term listeners will know Meanmar is an extremely 1:58:25.040 --> 1:58:28.320 diverse country, right, with more than fifty ethnic groups and 1:58:28.400 --> 1:58:31.879 hundreds of languages spoken, So that's why it talks about 1:58:32.280 --> 1:58:37.000 respecting diversity. This is one of the few things the 1:58:37.120 --> 1:58:40.120 United States has done for the people of Myanmar, after 1:58:40.320 --> 1:58:42.920 pumping up their economy, pumping up real estate, and then 1:58:42.960 --> 1:58:47.040 doing nothing when the military seized power there and started 1:58:47.040 --> 1:58:50.360 to brutally repress the people. And the US is also 1:58:50.400 --> 1:58:52.560 I should add, at this point holding a billion dollars 1:58:52.600 --> 1:58:55.240 of the Burmese people's money that it froze when the 1:58:55.280 --> 1:58:57.520 coup happened, and if it doesn't want to give them 1:58:57.560 --> 1:59:00.720 these scholarships, could give them back their money, but I'm 1:59:00.760 --> 1:59:03.200 sure it won't. I know this one pisces me off 1:59:03.200 --> 1:59:05.560 in particular because obviously I'm very invested in the course 1:59:05.640 --> 1:59:08.040 of the people of mem and they are my friends. 1:59:08.480 --> 1:59:11.040 Yeah, and this is very emblematic of the way Trump 1:59:11.040 --> 1:59:13.600 and Elon talked about a bunch of these aid programs. 1:59:13.840 --> 1:59:17.760 How like, you know, HIV prevention programs will be LGBTQ 1:59:18.640 --> 1:59:22.120 usaid money, right, Like they find a way to mischaracterize 1:59:22.120 --> 1:59:24.760 it in the most like culture war way. 1:59:25.000 --> 1:59:28.320 Yeah, talking about public health programs as circumcisions, right. 1:59:28.240 --> 1:59:30.400 Yeah, exactly right. They'll try to find every single like 1:59:30.480 --> 1:59:33.320 health or education program and turn it into some like 1:59:33.480 --> 1:59:37.160 LGBTQ or DEI culture or issue. Trump claimed on stage 1:59:37.160 --> 1:59:41.880 that they've found hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud. Now. 1:59:42.120 --> 1:59:45.240 The doge website previously listed one hundred and five billion 1:59:45.280 --> 1:59:48.800 dollars in like found savings, but this very week the 1:59:48.840 --> 1:59:52.160 website scrubbed the five of the highest dollar value receipts 1:59:52.720 --> 1:59:57.600 after journalists found massive errors in Elon's estimated count, and 1:59:57.640 --> 2:00:00.720 now it's while of receipts totals around it eight billion, 2:00:01.160 --> 2:00:05.040 though that might also be an overestimate according to some journalists. 2:00:05.080 --> 2:00:05.520 Amazing. 2:00:05.600 --> 2:00:08.880 Trump also talked about alleged Social Security fraud, claiming that 2:00:08.920 --> 2:00:11.919 millions and millions of dead people are getting Social Security. 2:00:12.560 --> 2:00:13.760 Like this just isn't true. 2:00:13.840 --> 2:00:15.640 The math is not mathing. 2:00:16.120 --> 2:00:17.840 Yeah, this has been their thing for a while, right, 2:00:17.840 --> 2:00:20.680 Dead people are voting. Dead people are getting Social Security. 2:00:21.040 --> 2:00:21.280 Yeah. 2:00:21.400 --> 2:00:25.200 Trump's own Social Security administrator has like said as much. 2:00:25.560 --> 2:00:28.240 The super old people in the database simply don't have 2:00:28.360 --> 2:00:31.320 death and details logged, but they are not receiving payments. 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:34.680 There is improper payments in the Social Security system, usually 2:00:34.760 --> 2:00:38.200 around one percent. Mostly that's over payments or entertainments to 2:00:38.240 --> 2:00:40.640 people who are actually alive, and there is a system 2:00:40.720 --> 2:00:44.560 for resolving those already in place, because social Security is 2:00:44.600 --> 2:00:47.320 a pretty old system that we've had for quite a while. 2:00:47.920 --> 2:00:50.280 And like, I don't know, like Trump's skirted by a 2:00:50.280 --> 2:00:53.080 lot of economy issues, and the way he did so 2:00:53.280 --> 2:00:56.480 was just by repeatedly claiming that doge and like, cutting 2:00:56.480 --> 2:00:59.480 this fraud will magically fix the economy, right, Like, this 2:00:59.560 --> 2:01:02.400 is how he wants to frame this. Eggs are too 2:01:02.480 --> 2:01:04.840 much money, all of these things, and he has no 2:01:04.920 --> 2:01:07.200 actual solution to it. So instead, We're going to fix 2:01:07.240 --> 2:01:09.920 the economy through doge, through finding all this fraud, and 2:01:10.000 --> 2:01:13.640 somehow we will locate this like pot of gold hidden 2:01:13.680 --> 2:01:16.800 somewhere that will magically make our economy better. And this 2:01:17.400 --> 2:01:19.960 is his solution because he doesn't have any real solution. 2:01:20.360 --> 2:01:22.840 Yeah, I should have pointed out that Lincoln Scholarships were 2:01:22.880 --> 2:01:25.120 in fact a Trump They started in twenty nineteen, this 2:01:25.280 --> 2:01:25.800 round of them. 2:01:25.960 --> 2:01:28.840 So like, good job, cut of your own fraud, Donald. 2:01:28.840 --> 2:01:31.920 Do you know what else started in the first Trump era? 2:01:32.200 --> 2:01:37.680 Garrison Advertising advertisements was I believe Trump's first executive order. 2:01:37.760 --> 2:01:42.360 He established the podcasting advertising industry, which you know supports 2:01:42.400 --> 2:01:44.600 us to this day today is the backbone of the 2:01:44.640 --> 2:01:45.400 American economy. 2:01:45.480 --> 2:01:45.680 Yeah. 2:01:45.680 --> 2:01:48.640 I mean that's actually unfortunately more true than it should be. 2:01:48.800 --> 2:01:51.720 You know, if anyone wants to buy any colloidal silver. 2:01:52.120 --> 2:02:05.560 No, no, no, okay, we are back on top of 2:02:05.600 --> 2:02:09.160 trains issues. The other, I would say most cited element 2:02:09.200 --> 2:02:12.680 in this speech was the border. Trump reference to the 2:02:12.760 --> 2:02:16.440 Lake and Riley Act, which requires DHS to detain illegal 2:02:16.440 --> 2:02:20.040 immigrants who've admitted to were charged with or convicted of 2:02:20.120 --> 2:02:24.160 theft related crimes or any crime related to serious bodily injury. 2:02:24.640 --> 2:02:27.960 They're not necessarily illegal. They could just be undocumented people. 2:02:28.080 --> 2:02:29.560 They could be asylum seekers. 2:02:29.560 --> 2:02:32.240 Correct, correct, Yes, that is a good point. 2:02:32.400 --> 2:02:35.680 I just want to note it was incredible the amount 2:02:35.680 --> 2:02:39.960 of sad looking children and or family members that he 2:02:40.040 --> 2:02:42.000 had as his propaganda prop people. 2:02:42.120 --> 2:02:44.720 He had a lot of props for this speech, a. 2:02:44.640 --> 2:02:47.480 Lot of props for his speech. I had Fred watch 2:02:47.480 --> 2:02:49.680 with me, and she just kept going, how did he 2:02:49.840 --> 2:02:51.640 find like these people? 2:02:51.960 --> 2:02:55.400 These people have been figures of his campaign for years. 2:02:55.520 --> 2:02:58.960 Yeah, I explain that. I explained that. Yeah, he's brought 2:02:59.000 --> 2:03:03.120 these same individual jewels out. As Garrett's mentioned over and 2:03:03.200 --> 2:03:05.800 over and over again, and use same thing. 2:03:05.720 --> 2:03:08.920 With Fox News with one American News, like their entire 2:03:09.000 --> 2:03:11.040 life revolves around being political props. 2:03:11.240 --> 2:03:14.840 It's an industry, right, there was nothing new here. 2:03:15.520 --> 2:03:18.520 Trump signed an executive order on stage to rename a 2:03:18.560 --> 2:03:23.840 wildlife preserve. In this like anti immigrant propaganda move, he 2:03:23.880 --> 2:03:27.080 called for mandatory death penalty for anyone who kills a 2:03:27.120 --> 2:03:29.680 police officer and asked Congress to sign that into law, 2:03:29.880 --> 2:03:34.080 which is mostly like an anti immigrant dog whistle, essentially 2:03:34.160 --> 2:03:37.160 trying to find a way to kill immigrants who are 2:03:37.200 --> 2:03:39.440 like charged with the death of a police officer. 2:03:39.840 --> 2:03:42.480 Yeah. They proposed the same thing for people smuggling drugs 2:03:42.520 --> 2:03:44.840 in the United States, like effectively charging them as if 2:03:44.920 --> 2:03:46.600 they were going to give all the drugs to one 2:03:46.640 --> 2:03:49.600 person to murder them and therefore giving them the death penalty. 2:03:50.160 --> 2:03:52.600 Now that he wants to label all these people terrorists 2:03:52.760 --> 2:03:54.840 or you know, has labeled these groups terrorists, it gives 2:03:54.840 --> 2:03:57.200 the like the government a lot more leeway to do 2:03:57.240 --> 2:03:57.800 stuff like that. 2:03:57.920 --> 2:04:00.960 Yeah, I mean, proving membership of those groups would be 2:04:01.000 --> 2:04:01.320 a chat. 2:04:01.400 --> 2:04:04.560 Sure, I mean, so is proving membership to Antifa. 2:04:04.400 --> 2:04:06.640 Yes, exactly. Yeah, we haven't seen how they can. Well, 2:04:06.920 --> 2:04:08.720 we've somewhat seen how they're going to try in the 2:04:08.800 --> 2:04:12.320 latter case, but none in the former. I guess we'll see, 2:04:12.400 --> 2:04:14.160 I'm sure at some point in the next year or two. 2:04:14.200 --> 2:04:16.800 But like Trump said that, like previously, America has quote 2:04:16.840 --> 2:04:21.320 unquote buckled under migrant occupation, but now we are achieving 2:04:21.640 --> 2:04:25.120 the great liberation of America. That's the sort of language 2:04:25.160 --> 2:04:26.320 he was using for this section. 2:04:26.600 --> 2:04:30.160 And he said how they rule from mental asylums and prisons. 2:04:30.040 --> 2:04:33.120 Very standard campaign rhetoric that he's used for years now. 2:04:33.480 --> 2:04:35.320 If you're new to this podcast, you can go back. 2:04:35.360 --> 2:04:37.680 You can search the word hacumber or border, and you 2:04:37.720 --> 2:04:40.440 can listen to interviews with probably hundreds of migrants. You 2:04:40.440 --> 2:04:43.000 can listen to my title forty two series, you can 2:04:43.000 --> 2:04:45.320 listen to my Darien series, and you can joy for 2:04:45.360 --> 2:04:49.120 yourself if these people are criminal or bad or mentally unwell. 2:04:49.880 --> 2:04:52.600 The economy had a very minimal focus compared to border 2:04:52.680 --> 2:04:56.040 or trans issues. He really skirted over the tariffs thing 2:04:56.040 --> 2:05:00.000 as fast as possible, briefly talked about the federal funder 2:05:00.160 --> 2:05:03.880 Freeze bragged about terminating the green new scam, something that 2:05:03.920 --> 2:05:07.600 has never existed. Yeah, talking about withdrawing from the Preparis 2:05:07.600 --> 2:05:10.920 climate Accords again, as well as the corrupt World Health 2:05:11.040 --> 2:05:15.800 Organization and the and the anti American un War Crime Council. 2:05:16.480 --> 2:05:22.280 Very cool, bragged about ending climate restrictions, you know, drill, baby, drill, 2:05:22.560 --> 2:05:26.320 going after rare earth minerals, talked about no tax on 2:05:26.400 --> 2:05:31.120 tips over time and benefits for seniors, and then briefly 2:05:31.160 --> 2:05:36.160 discussed that on April second, he will be enacting reciprocal 2:05:36.200 --> 2:05:39.200 tariffs just completely across the board for all nations. And 2:05:39.320 --> 2:05:41.320 he did warn farmers there is going to be an 2:05:41.360 --> 2:05:46.520 adjustment period. Quote, there will be a little disturbance unquote. 2:05:46.840 --> 2:05:49.400 Certainly when you adjust to not having a job that 2:05:49.440 --> 2:05:51.040 pays you any money anymore. 2:05:50.640 --> 2:05:54.200 Crashing the economy will have a bit of an adjustment period. 2:05:54.440 --> 2:05:56.440 It will be a bit of a little disturbance. 2:05:56.680 --> 2:05:59.600 Yeah, I mean, just like he just kept going through 2:06:00.120 --> 2:06:08.440 these obvious, ridiculous claims and making Trump side comment stupidity, 2:06:08.680 --> 2:06:13.600 like calling the Middle East a bad neighborhood and. 2:06:14.000 --> 2:06:14.920 That's my street joke. 2:06:15.160 --> 2:06:20.520 Yeah, it's just incredible. And James, our colleague Molly Conger 2:06:20.600 --> 2:06:21.800 had a good point. 2:06:21.760 --> 2:06:24.640 She did, Yeah, of her many good points. Trump said 2:06:24.640 --> 2:06:27.520 that people had never heard of Lesotho. At the same time, 2:06:27.600 --> 2:06:30.200 pronouncing it in a way that one would only know 2:06:30.240 --> 2:06:32.320 if one had heard it pronounced rather than seen it 2:06:32.320 --> 2:06:35.360 written on the page. Very very funny, south Ownd. He 2:06:35.360 --> 2:06:38.720 also said something about Liberia like implying like I would 2:06:38.760 --> 2:06:41.120 encourage people to understand the history of Liberia if they 2:06:41.200 --> 2:06:43.680 think the US does an Liberia a thing or two. 2:06:44.680 --> 2:06:48.000 One of the last focuses of the speech was national security, 2:06:48.240 --> 2:06:54.080 promising a Golden Dome missile defense system, which Trump has 2:06:54.120 --> 2:06:57.839 previously talked about at previous twenty twenty four campaign events. 2:06:57.840 --> 2:07:01.840 I'm obsessed with gold, sessed with gold with dome. 2:07:07.200 --> 2:07:09.480 Garrison didn't even crack for those listening. 2:07:09.920 --> 2:07:14.400 Once again, got him now once again. He announced that 2:07:14.440 --> 2:07:18.640 his administration will be reclaiming the Panama Canal, saying we 2:07:18.680 --> 2:07:21.840 have Mark Rubio in charge. Good luck Marco. If something 2:07:21.880 --> 2:07:24.400 goes wrong, we know who to play right. 2:07:25.880 --> 2:07:26.320 Amazing. 2:07:26.920 --> 2:07:31.040 His comments on Greenland were specifically odd, saying Greenland, we 2:07:31.160 --> 2:07:34.840 strongly support your right to determine your own future, and 2:07:35.120 --> 2:07:38.080 if you choose, we welcome you into the United States 2:07:38.080 --> 2:07:42.520 of America. But the full quote about Greenland was very odd. 2:07:42.880 --> 2:07:46.000 He said, quote, we need Greenland for national security and 2:07:46.200 --> 2:07:51.640 even international security, so weird, and we're working with everybody 2:07:51.720 --> 2:07:54.480 involved to try to get it. But we need it 2:07:54.520 --> 2:07:58.160 really for international for world security, and I think we're 2:07:58.160 --> 2:08:01.560 gonna get it. One way or another, We're gonna get it. 2:08:01.560 --> 2:08:05.200 It's a very small population, but a very very large 2:08:05.240 --> 2:08:10.280 piece of land and very very important for military security. 2:08:10.600 --> 2:08:15.120 Unquote okay, yeah, very odd, very odd comments. 2:08:14.800 --> 2:08:16.160 Whole collection of English language. 2:08:16.160 --> 2:08:18.800 Would he is He is continuing to say that one 2:08:18.840 --> 2:08:21.960 way or another he will take Greenland. I think his 2:08:22.040 --> 2:08:25.760 focus on it for national security is particularly interesting. I 2:08:25.760 --> 2:08:27.800 think this has something to do with trying to make 2:08:28.040 --> 2:08:31.160 the US and Russia these like two massive like world 2:08:31.240 --> 2:08:34.680 powers that both have like you know, Arctic land at 2:08:34.680 --> 2:08:38.440 their disposal, considering climate change or you know, a variety 2:08:38.440 --> 2:08:40.960 of issues. But I think that this does move towards 2:08:41.920 --> 2:08:45.640 this like quasi like Douganism of like this like multipolar 2:08:45.680 --> 2:08:48.440 world that that Putin certainly wants, and Trump is kind 2:08:48.440 --> 2:08:51.040 of signaling that, you know, through the influence of Bannon, 2:08:51.520 --> 2:08:54.160 he's also moving towards with like Putin and trumpet like 2:08:54.200 --> 2:08:56.879 you know, the two people who control the world. Speaking 2:08:56.920 --> 2:08:59.839 of Trump didn't talk about receiving a letter from President's 2:09:00.080 --> 2:09:03.880 Lensky asking to return to the neotiating table, and bragged 2:09:03.920 --> 2:09:07.800 about freeing another weed smoking teacher in a Russian jail, 2:09:08.880 --> 2:09:13.200 returning him home to America. And oddly enough, Trump met 2:09:13.240 --> 2:09:16.480 with the mother of this teacher in Butler, Pennsylvania right 2:09:16.480 --> 2:09:19.800 before he got shot, which led him to point towards 2:09:19.840 --> 2:09:24.280 the comparatour family, again, pronouncing it in a completely new 2:09:24.320 --> 2:09:27.000 and different way. All of the members of the family 2:09:27.040 --> 2:09:32.160 seemed very not thrilled to be there, completely blank expressions, quite. 2:09:32.000 --> 2:09:33.600 Odd, extremely weird. 2:09:33.880 --> 2:09:36.440 Yeah, so this is where he ended the speech, was 2:09:36.480 --> 2:09:39.400 talking about, you know, getting shot, and then kind of 2:09:39.440 --> 2:09:43.600 went on a very long, ten minute, almost gptesque ramble 2:09:43.920 --> 2:09:47.040 about like America. I didn't take any notes on it 2:09:47.080 --> 2:09:49.120 because it just sounded like word salad. But there is 2:09:49.120 --> 2:09:50.760 a few other mislanious things from the speech I do 2:09:50.760 --> 2:09:53.120 want to mention before we close out. Trump bragged about 2:09:53.120 --> 2:09:56.920 stopping all government censorship and having brought back free speech 2:09:57.000 --> 2:10:01.600 to America, saying it's back, which is you know, a 2:10:01.800 --> 2:10:05.880 slightly humorous amidst reports of grants being pulled for using 2:10:05.960 --> 2:10:09.480 quote unquote the bad words, wrong words, as well as 2:10:09.560 --> 2:10:15.040 a truth social post a truth made earlier today Wednesday, 2:10:16.080 --> 2:10:19.360 saying all federal funding will stop for any college, school, 2:10:19.560 --> 2:10:24.280 or university that allows illegal protests. Agitators will be imprisoned 2:10:24.560 --> 2:10:27.600 or permanently sent back to the country from which they came. 2:10:27.920 --> 2:10:31.800 American students will be permanently expelled or, depending on the crime, arrested. 2:10:32.160 --> 2:10:36.000 No masks. So in one moment, you can celebrate bringing 2:10:36.040 --> 2:10:38.000 back free speech, and in the other you can call 2:10:38.040 --> 2:10:42.000 for deporting people who protest or imprisoning students are protesting 2:10:42.160 --> 2:10:46.440 on their own university campuses. Very very typical Trump doubles 2:10:46.480 --> 2:10:47.400 speak type stuff. 2:10:48.120 --> 2:10:52.839 He talked about bringing the people back to the office 2:10:52.920 --> 2:10:54.640 like these are all like normal Trump. 2:10:55.920 --> 2:10:58.200 Well, yeah, and these are things that have happened already. 2:10:58.440 --> 2:10:58.640 Yeah. 2:10:58.840 --> 2:11:02.280 Most of the half of this beach was celebrating things 2:11:02.280 --> 2:11:05.160 that he's already done. The other half was like asking 2:11:05.200 --> 2:11:08.320 Congress to help him do more things Mixed in with 2:11:08.360 --> 2:11:12.280 these weird propaganda moves like making this thirteen year old 2:11:12.360 --> 2:11:16.840 brain cancer survivor in honorary Secret Service agent and admitting 2:11:17.240 --> 2:11:21.520 this very square looking teenager into West Point. Who by 2:11:21.560 --> 2:11:25.720 the way, this this teenager has the most cop phenotype 2:11:25.720 --> 2:11:30.320 I've ever seen before. It's crazy, It's I was shocked, like, whoa, 2:11:30.520 --> 2:11:34.960 they found him the cop phenotype. There he is, which 2:11:35.040 --> 2:11:37.560 was which is two? Two more of these weird props. 2:11:37.920 --> 2:11:40.880 It's like in the cave in Plato, everything else is 2:11:40.920 --> 2:11:42.960 just a reflection of this cop kid. Every other coult 2:11:43.040 --> 2:11:43.240 it was. 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:46.200 It's so odd because like Trump spent this speech talking 2:11:46.200 --> 2:11:48.480 about how, you know, like we're bringing back a merit 2:11:48.480 --> 2:11:51.520 based hiring. We have we have quote ended the tyranny 2:11:51.560 --> 2:11:55.360 of dei across government, private sector, and military, as he 2:11:55.400 --> 2:11:58.560 then just did two DEI hires on stage. But you 2:11:58.560 --> 2:12:01.640 know whom I who am I to say? So that's 2:12:01.720 --> 2:12:03.240 kind of all I had to say on the Trump speech. 2:12:03.320 --> 2:12:06.720 Right now, I will briefly, very briefly talk about the 2:12:06.760 --> 2:12:10.480 Democratic response. The Democratic response was done by Senator Slatkin 2:12:10.520 --> 2:12:13.720 from Michigan, who opened by saying America wants change, but 2:12:13.760 --> 2:12:16.480 there's a responsible way to make change in an irresponsible way, 2:12:16.840 --> 2:12:19.640 trying to paint DOGE as like this very irresponsible and 2:12:19.720 --> 2:12:23.320 brash way to achieve efficiencies, something that we all obviously 2:12:23.600 --> 2:12:26.720 want the government to move more towards. She warned about 2:12:26.920 --> 2:12:30.000 how Trump's actions may result in our recession, warned about 2:12:30.080 --> 2:12:33.840 losing Social Security Medicare and VA benefits, quoted Musk, who 2:12:33.920 --> 2:12:37.160 recently called social Security the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time, 2:12:37.520 --> 2:12:40.280 and attacked Musk and the twenty year old DOGE members 2:12:40.560 --> 2:12:43.240 for using their own servers to access your sensitive data. 2:12:44.480 --> 2:12:48.360 Sluckin spent a lot of the rebuttal praising Ronald Reagan. 2:12:48.760 --> 2:12:52.320 Odd for a Democrat. I would say, I don't know why, strange, 2:12:52.640 --> 2:12:55.360 don't know why you as the opposition party, are continuing 2:12:55.720 --> 2:12:59.600 to base your politics on praising Bush and Reagan. Very 2:12:59.640 --> 2:13:03.680 cool position party bros, very fun stuff. She also said, 2:13:04.040 --> 2:13:07.640 I've lived and worked in many countries. I've seen democracies 2:13:07.640 --> 2:13:10.120 flicker out. I've seen what life is like when a 2:13:10.160 --> 2:13:13.000 government is rigged. Like yeah, I bet you have the 2:13:13.240 --> 2:13:19.680 former CIA agent. She also mentioned doom scrolling, so that 2:13:19.520 --> 2:13:22.560 that really shows how the Democrats have the finger on 2:13:22.600 --> 2:13:25.920 the pulse here when when doom scrolling is mentioned as 2:13:25.960 --> 2:13:28.840 something not to do, saying, instead, you should hold your 2:13:28.880 --> 2:13:32.040 elected officials, including me, accountable, Watch how they're voting, go 2:13:32.080 --> 2:13:35.240 to town halls, demand they take action and organize. Pick 2:13:35.280 --> 2:13:38.040 up one issue you're passionate about and engage. Doom Scrolling 2:13:38.040 --> 2:13:40.880 doesn't count. Join a group that cares about your issue 2:13:40.880 --> 2:13:43.960 and act. If you can't find one, start one. And 2:13:44.000 --> 2:13:46.280 that was that was the bulk of the ten minute 2:13:46.280 --> 2:13:50.200 Democratic response. Oh boy, what a what a what a 2:13:50.240 --> 2:13:52.400 fun what a fun day in American politics? 2:13:52.440 --> 2:13:53.600 That was Yep. 2:13:53.920 --> 2:13:56.760 Any final thoughts, James Sophie. 2:13:56.560 --> 2:14:00.200 Like this speech. This episode is running long. Yeah, so 2:14:00.480 --> 2:14:03.160 I rarely don't have any final thoughts other than. 2:14:04.560 --> 2:14:10.240 Bad, bad, bad, bad bad. The Democrats are unwilling to 2:14:10.240 --> 2:14:13.360 do anything actually serious. Once again, the attempts that quot 2:14:13.400 --> 2:14:16.640 unquote fact checking the speech are also incredibly pathetic to 2:14:16.680 --> 2:14:17.040 look at. 2:14:18.120 --> 2:14:18.520 Truly. 2:14:18.720 --> 2:14:20.920 There's this New York Times fact check which I will 2:14:20.920 --> 2:14:22.240 close on just because it made me and the rest 2:14:22.280 --> 2:14:24.960 of our group chat very upset, which outlined this long 2:14:25.000 --> 2:14:27.640 paragraph from Trump saying over the past four years, twenty 2:14:27.640 --> 2:14:29.920 one million people poured into the United States, many of 2:14:29.960 --> 2:14:33.160 whom were murderers, human traffickers, gang members, and other criminals 2:14:33.160 --> 2:14:35.680 from the streets of dangerous cities and all throughout the world. 2:14:35.840 --> 2:14:39.040 Because of Joe Biden's insane and very dangerous open border policies, 2:14:39.200 --> 2:14:41.720 they are now strongly embedded in our country. But we 2:14:41.760 --> 2:14:44.640 are getting them out and getting them out fast and 2:14:44.880 --> 2:14:49.240 the fact check for this very like false claim is 2:14:49.640 --> 2:14:53.320 quote fast is a relative term. This statement is misleading. 2:14:54.360 --> 2:14:57.960 It's just oh, it only focuses on the ending sentence 2:14:58.080 --> 2:15:00.840 saying that we're getting these immigrants out and we're getting 2:15:00.880 --> 2:15:05.880 them out fast. It ignores calling many of these twenty 2:15:05.880 --> 2:15:09.480 one million people human traffickers, gang members, and criminals. Does 2:15:09.560 --> 2:15:12.200 not say that we never have had open border policy. 2:15:12.280 --> 2:15:15.600 Like it's crazy, even like the liberal fact checking is 2:15:15.680 --> 2:15:19.160 completely pathetic and toothless, and like fact ticking doesn't work, 2:15:19.160 --> 2:15:22.160 it's not useful anyway. That's why I'm not spending this 2:15:22.160 --> 2:15:25.440 whole episode fact checking Trump's claims. But the fact that 2:15:25.480 --> 2:15:30.440 you're gonna parrot this insane anti immigrant rhetoric and only 2:15:30.520 --> 2:15:33.160 fact chuck Trump saying that we're going to get these 2:15:33.160 --> 2:15:36.040 immigrants out of our country fast, calling it a relative term. 2:15:36.320 --> 2:15:39.640 And this is the reason that this statement is misleading. 2:15:39.840 --> 2:15:43.720 This completely shows how Democrats like completely lost any momentum 2:15:43.760 --> 2:15:46.440 on the immigration topic. Same thing with the trans topic. 2:15:46.600 --> 2:15:50.400 They're actually unwilling to push back on changing popular sentiment 2:15:50.480 --> 2:15:54.400 because they're automatically agreeing with the actual conceit. Yeah, anyway, 2:15:54.600 --> 2:15:57.520 that got me upset, and then I watched Tiawei and 2:15:57.520 --> 2:15:59.760 then went to that. So there we go. 2:15:59.840 --> 2:16:01.440 Do you go ya yaie? Garrison? 2:16:01.760 --> 2:16:29.320 Anyways, this is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our 2:16:29.320 --> 2:16:32.000 weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the 2:16:32.080 --> 2:16:34.720 crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison 2:16:34.800 --> 2:16:39.560 Davis today. I'm joined by Bauford Evans, Nia Wong, James Stokes, 2:16:39.720 --> 2:16:40.720 and Sophie Lichterman. 2:16:40.920 --> 2:16:44.680 Tragically, we all have ed. All right, I got it 2:16:44.720 --> 2:16:46.440 out of the way. We can continue the episode. 2:16:46.480 --> 2:16:46.640 Now. 2:16:46.680 --> 2:16:49.720 This episode, we are covering the week of February twenty 2:16:49.760 --> 2:16:54.880 seven to March five, Number Go Down, Public Humiliation ritual 2:16:54.920 --> 2:16:58.599 of Vladimir Zelensky, and the age of US global supremacy 2:16:58.760 --> 2:16:59.240 is over. 2:16:59.400 --> 2:17:02.359 Welcome to the end of the American Empire. It sucks 2:17:02.480 --> 2:17:03.760 way more than I thought it would. 2:17:03.800 --> 2:17:06.920 Yeah, uh huh, well, I mean, look, some of us 2:17:06.920 --> 2:17:08.119 have been saying this. 2:17:10.240 --> 2:17:13.840 Yeah, it's just tragedy that is fast, and then it's 2:17:13.879 --> 2:17:15.280 whatever the fuck is happening now? 2:17:15.400 --> 2:17:19.199 Yeah, we're we have crossed the tragedy farce horizon. 2:17:19.280 --> 2:17:20.160 We're well beyond. 2:17:20.800 --> 2:17:23.720 We're well beyond anything marks could of anticipating. 2:17:23.800 --> 2:17:25.760 We're going we don't need foss. 2:17:27.240 --> 2:17:29.400 Like I am upset about how Landy and everything is 2:17:29.440 --> 2:17:31.600 becoming Like I feel like you have to be almost 2:17:31.680 --> 2:17:35.280 forced into being an accelerationist now, like there is no 2:17:35.480 --> 2:17:36.480 other way out. 2:17:36.800 --> 2:17:38.840 Did you watch the Democrats last night, Garrison. 2:17:39.160 --> 2:17:42.280 It's like this non consensual acceleration as well. Yeah, yeah that, 2:17:42.400 --> 2:17:45.960 like people spent years trying to resist this. Accelerationists push 2:17:46.160 --> 2:17:49.000 that even now I'm seeing like analysts like embrace, like, 2:17:49.080 --> 2:17:51.840 I guess we have to be accelerationists now, which is 2:17:51.920 --> 2:17:52.720 very bizarre to see. 2:17:52.760 --> 2:17:56.080 Yeah, I've been saying there is no more ideology called accelerationism. 2:17:56.080 --> 2:17:58.199 There is just acceleration of what you do about it. 2:17:58.320 --> 2:18:02.760 So funhole, we've gotten there into Yeah, speaking of let's 2:18:02.760 --> 2:18:06.800 start with talking about Ukraine, a place which accelerated, and 2:18:06.840 --> 2:18:10.400 that Oval office meeting that happened last Friday. That was 2:18:10.440 --> 2:18:11.480 a little bit odd. 2:18:11.360 --> 2:18:11.760 Wasn't it. 2:18:11.800 --> 2:18:14.760 Folks Hearson say thank you, thank you. 2:18:15.080 --> 2:18:18.280 Yes, I realize I've been under your employee for for 2:18:18.320 --> 2:18:20.160 four years now. I've said thank you many. 2:18:19.920 --> 2:18:23.039 Times each of you. Thank me. No, I'm kidding Jesus Christ. 2:18:23.200 --> 2:18:25.680 Wow, So Sophie has gone mad with power? 2:18:26.160 --> 2:18:28.440 Mm hmm, I'm going to go call the EU because 2:18:28.840 --> 2:18:29.800 Sophie has asked. 2:18:29.560 --> 2:18:33.039 Me, yes, So I don't know. I'm sure people saw 2:18:33.120 --> 2:18:35.080 like a two minute clip or something. I watched the 2:18:35.080 --> 2:18:38.600 full ten minute section, which is much more crazy. Yeah, 2:18:38.640 --> 2:18:42.080 And like in Trump's push to get like this Ceaspire deal, 2:18:42.600 --> 2:18:47.880 Zelensky's hesitation has been because Putin has broken multiple Ceasepire deals, 2:18:48.160 --> 2:18:50.119 so how can we be sure that he will respect 2:18:50.160 --> 2:18:52.280 this one? And that's kind of what jump starts this 2:18:52.400 --> 2:18:58.279 extra combative exchange between Trump, Zelinsky, and eventually little boy JD. 2:18:58.400 --> 2:19:02.679 I don't know, Robert and James, you your war understanders. 2:19:03.240 --> 2:19:06.480 Yeah, that's what it says when I go into my hobe. 2:19:07.120 --> 2:19:12.400 The increasing story, and this affects Ukraine, but is not 2:19:12.520 --> 2:19:15.240 just limited to it. The story of the next several 2:19:15.320 --> 2:19:18.800 years is going to be the mass rearmament of Europe 2:19:19.200 --> 2:19:22.720 and almost certain nuclear proliferation. France, who has I think 2:19:22.720 --> 2:19:26.160 two hundred and ninety five nuclear warheads and extremely advanced 2:19:26.160 --> 2:19:29.160 first strike capability as well as a first strike doctrine 2:19:29.879 --> 2:19:32.640 is under Macron has just made a statement that he's 2:19:32.680 --> 2:19:35.360 willing to have France be the nuclear shield for the 2:19:35.360 --> 2:19:38.880 rest of Europe. The UK also has enough nukes to 2:19:38.959 --> 2:19:42.879 kill way more people than actually live there. Unfortunately, their 2:19:42.959 --> 2:19:45.959 nuclear defense system and reaction system is very tied into 2:19:46.000 --> 2:19:48.240 the US one. I expect you will see them sever 2:19:48.400 --> 2:19:51.520 it from the United States as the United States becomes 2:19:51.520 --> 2:19:55.119 more and more of a geopolitical adversary to England and 2:19:55.160 --> 2:19:57.920 to everywhere else in Europe. I think you are going 2:19:57.959 --> 2:20:00.959 to see more smaller states in Europe get the bomb. 2:20:01.320 --> 2:20:04.600 I think in general, I'm shocked if in four years 2:20:04.600 --> 2:20:07.280 there's not at least another four or five states that 2:20:07.440 --> 2:20:12.160 have gained access to the bomb. Yeah, because the overarching 2:20:12.200 --> 2:20:15.680 international lesson from Ukraine has never ever, ever, ever, ever 2:20:15.920 --> 2:20:18.720 ever give up a nuke and get one at all costs. 2:20:19.760 --> 2:20:23.640 Yeah, fantasy the European national anthem whenobe because if it's 2:20:23.640 --> 2:20:27.960 not love, it's the bomb that will bring us together. Yep, Garrison, 2:20:28.440 --> 2:20:30.600 great one. I don't like that that. 2:20:31.360 --> 2:20:34.120 I'm not saying this because it's it's good, but it's 2:20:34.160 --> 2:20:37.440 also literally like if I was in charge of European security, 2:20:37.680 --> 2:20:39.959 that's where you had priority would be let's get as 2:20:39.959 --> 2:20:42.200 many fucking nukes out here as we can. 2:20:43.240 --> 2:20:46.640 I think we should say that, like this is how 2:20:46.760 --> 2:20:50.720 US diplomacy happens. This sort of shouting at and humiliating 2:20:50.879 --> 2:20:53.880 non US leaders is what the US does. The difference 2:20:53.879 --> 2:20:55.480 here is that Trump did it in front of the 2:20:55.640 --> 2:20:59.080 entire White House, press corps and TV cameras, Yes, in 2:20:59.120 --> 2:21:01.640 the Oval Office, for everyone to see. Yeah, and it 2:21:01.680 --> 2:21:04.400 doesn't give Zelenski a place to back down. Right, Like, 2:21:04.440 --> 2:21:06.280 he's a leader of a country that is at war. 2:21:06.760 --> 2:21:10.040 He needs to show strength and like certainly sort of 2:21:10.040 --> 2:21:12.320 with the current understanding of leadership, he needs to show strength, 2:21:12.360 --> 2:21:14.680 and to show strength, he doesn't have many places to 2:21:14.720 --> 2:21:16.879 go when he's been humiliated like that, right. 2:21:16.920 --> 2:21:19.160 Well, and like you know, Trump was yelling about you know, 2:21:19.360 --> 2:21:22.360 world War three and then and then and advanced China thing. 2:21:22.400 --> 2:21:25.280 He's particularly incoherent with his with his little like thank 2:21:25.320 --> 2:21:27.120 you speech. And I think Robert, I think I think 2:21:27.160 --> 2:21:31.840 you pointed out to me earlier, like why Vance jumped 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:34.520 in on this the way he did, in like a 2:21:34.600 --> 2:21:38.240 way to establish dominance when Vance and Trump have very 2:21:38.280 --> 2:21:41.080 little cards to play because this is the guy who 2:21:41.120 --> 2:21:44.400 has been like at war for years now, and like 2:21:44.800 --> 2:21:48.200 they need to feel superior to that. And that's why 2:21:48.280 --> 2:21:50.760 it's a public humiliation ritual, because that's the only method 2:21:50.760 --> 2:21:52.199 they had yet right now. 2:21:52.600 --> 2:21:56.320 No, because there's nothing really like they play act at masculinity, 2:21:56.480 --> 2:22:01.640 and their fan especially Trump's base, really like feeds into that. 2:22:02.320 --> 2:22:05.640 But they definitely also have that deep secure insecurity that 2:22:05.720 --> 2:22:08.720 because of aspects of our culture and media. I think 2:22:08.800 --> 2:22:11.400 most men who have never been to war have a 2:22:11.440 --> 2:22:13.840 little bit of that. I don't think it's a natural 2:22:13.879 --> 2:22:15.640 thing for men, but I think it's a natural thing 2:22:15.720 --> 2:22:18.879 in our society. I think it is extremely common, verging 2:22:18.920 --> 2:22:22.039 on universal. I went to war in part because of 2:22:22.080 --> 2:22:26.160 that derangement. And by the way, war doesn't do anything 2:22:26.200 --> 2:22:28.039 to make you better. Yeah, but what it does do, 2:22:28.280 --> 2:22:31.600 what it has done for Zelensky and why he acted 2:22:31.600 --> 2:22:34.440 the way he is, is that like he's he's literally 2:22:34.480 --> 2:22:36.720 been in the position of his entire family and him 2:22:36.720 --> 2:22:39.560 having Ak forty seven shoved into their hands because a 2:22:39.640 --> 2:22:43.680 Russian kill team was in the city gunning for him 2:22:43.720 --> 2:22:47.640 and his family as bombs fell all around. Like, yeah, 2:22:47.680 --> 2:22:51.640 he's just he's I think he just has too much pride. Sorry, 2:22:51.640 --> 2:22:53.800 pride's even the wrong thing He's learned over the course 2:22:53.800 --> 2:22:56.360 of fighting this war. When you are up against a 2:22:56.400 --> 2:22:59.800 strong man, you can't back down. 2:23:00.800 --> 2:23:03.360 Like, yeah, you just keep getting pushed back further and 2:23:03.360 --> 2:23:04.320 further if you do that. 2:23:04.440 --> 2:23:06.640 Because he wouldn't have gotten anything if he had like 2:23:06.720 --> 2:23:08.760 sat there and been nice and let them make fun 2:23:08.760 --> 2:23:11.640 of him, and like, like the the ending would be 2:23:11.720 --> 2:23:14.480 the same. They'd made up their minds prior to that meeting. 2:23:14.400 --> 2:23:17.439 Right, and like the one of the things that Zelenski 2:23:17.480 --> 2:23:19.280 has going for him, and like there's a lot that 2:23:19.280 --> 2:23:21.400 he doesn't have going from. He's not a coward, and 2:23:21.480 --> 2:23:24.320 like no people have noticed that he's not a coward, 2:23:24.360 --> 2:23:26.400 and that has brought him some of the support and 2:23:26.560 --> 2:23:29.720 like it has allowed him to remain in that position 2:23:29.760 --> 2:23:32.840 of leadership a relatively uncontested right. They haven't been able 2:23:32.879 --> 2:23:35.120 to have elections. This is something that the Ukrainian opposition 2:23:35.360 --> 2:23:37.720 have also kind of consented to. It's not like he's 2:23:37.760 --> 2:23:40.560 he's being a dictator here, as Trump is alleged, but 2:23:40.640 --> 2:23:45.560 like his personal bravery and willingness to confront these strong 2:23:45.600 --> 2:23:49.320 men is something that like people draw strength from in Ukraine, 2:23:49.320 --> 2:23:50.560 and he can't afford to let that go. 2:23:51.080 --> 2:23:54.520 He actually was fairly submissive in this exchange. He was 2:23:54.640 --> 2:23:57.560 letting Trump talk way over him. Zelenski did not raise 2:23:57.600 --> 2:24:00.400 his voice. I don't. I frankly, I don't understand how 2:24:00.480 --> 2:24:03.080 people have even deluded themselves into thinking this makes this 2:24:03.240 --> 2:24:05.680 like Zelenski look bad or like he wasn't proper. 2:24:06.280 --> 2:24:08.320 Yeah, he handled it like a grown up would handle it, 2:24:08.360 --> 2:24:11.119 Like he tried to point out what you're saying it's wrong. 2:24:11.400 --> 2:24:14.480 This was clearly like a coordinated trap from like the 2:24:14.640 --> 2:24:17.200 entire White House team, from like the press corps. Yes, 2:24:17.280 --> 2:24:19.360 like talking about like why he doesn't wear a suit, 2:24:19.800 --> 2:24:22.680 and like someone like Rubio, like a neocon that has 2:24:22.720 --> 2:24:25.120 more of this like geopolitics focus, Like he was like 2:24:25.160 --> 2:24:27.840 literally like syncing into the couch as this was happening, 2:24:27.879 --> 2:24:30.039 Like like Rubio was not thrilled at this. 2:24:30.400 --> 2:24:34.680 Yeah, no, no, because Rubio he has no personal pride 2:24:34.760 --> 2:24:37.440 or backbone, so he is willing to try and remake 2:24:37.520 --> 2:24:40.280 himself as a Trumper. But in his actual heart and soul, 2:24:40.320 --> 2:24:41.839 he's a Reagan Republican. 2:24:41.520 --> 2:24:44.879 He totally sure, or maybe at least a Bush Republican. 2:24:44.959 --> 2:24:47.640 Definitely Bush. And yeah, I don't know. Like Zelenski was 2:24:47.640 --> 2:24:49.960 literally kicked out of the White House on Friday, he's 2:24:50.000 --> 2:24:52.800 now trying to find a way back into the negotiating table. 2:24:53.240 --> 2:24:56.600 On Monday, the United States suspended all military aid to 2:24:56.680 --> 2:25:01.360 Ukraine after Trump has continued to inflate the numbers in 2:25:01.680 --> 2:25:03.400 regards to the amount of military aid we have sent 2:25:03.440 --> 2:25:06.039 to Ukraine, often by a magnitude of two hundred billion 2:25:06.080 --> 2:25:08.400 dollars and I don't like this was one of the 2:25:08.400 --> 2:25:10.200 first things that me and Robert noticed at the RNC, 2:25:10.480 --> 2:25:14.520 like how much Ukraine was like a top issue for them, 2:25:14.560 --> 2:25:17.200 Like people wouldn't shut up about Ukraine. And it took 2:25:17.240 --> 2:25:19.119 us a few days to like acclimate, be like okay, 2:25:19.160 --> 2:25:21.199 like why are they talking about it in this way? 2:25:21.680 --> 2:25:24.560 Like it was. It was very odd and Robert did 2:25:24.600 --> 2:25:27.360 a deep dive on that last year with front of 2:25:27.400 --> 2:25:30.040 the pod Rudy Giuliani Garrison. 2:25:30.080 --> 2:25:31.800 I just wanted to update you have been talking with 2:25:31.920 --> 2:25:34.640 Rudy about the album that you and I wanted to 2:25:34.720 --> 2:25:36.800 drop with him, and he is on board, so we 2:25:36.840 --> 2:25:38.400 will be moving forward with that this spring. 2:25:38.560 --> 2:25:41.520 That's exciting a little taste for all you listeners. And 2:25:41.560 --> 2:25:43.360 I like this. This is very much a part, in 2:25:43.440 --> 2:25:46.640 my mind, a part of Bannon's push for like this 2:25:46.800 --> 2:25:51.119 quasi douganism, this idea of a multipope polar world of 2:25:51.160 --> 2:25:54.520 Trump and putin with putin expanding power into Europe, while 2:25:54.520 --> 2:25:56.560 Trump tries to see his control over more parts of 2:25:56.600 --> 2:25:59.800 North and Central America, you know, taking the Panama Canal 2:26:00.160 --> 2:26:04.560 eventually Canada and Greenland, you know, and like both people 2:26:04.800 --> 2:26:07.400 want to you know, more more Arctic land that will 2:26:07.400 --> 2:26:10.400 be useful considering climate change. And Russia already has their 2:26:10.440 --> 2:26:13.680 fair share. So that's why, you know, Greenland is so 2:26:14.080 --> 2:26:17.640 essential for national security, like Trump talked about endlessly in 2:26:17.680 --> 2:26:20.879 his joint session speech, I guess, uh miya, do you 2:26:20.879 --> 2:26:23.120 want to add something about this mineral thing before we 2:26:23.160 --> 2:26:23.680 go to break? 2:26:24.200 --> 2:26:26.160 Yeah, So I think I think one of the important 2:26:26.160 --> 2:26:28.480 things here is that this is this is the definitive 2:26:28.520 --> 2:26:31.000 break point, Like this is the moment that people are 2:26:31.000 --> 2:26:33.640 going to point to and they look back on the 2:26:33.680 --> 2:26:36.720 moment the old American empire died and that empire, you know, 2:26:36.760 --> 2:26:40.280 the sort of post World War two international order thing. 2:26:40.400 --> 2:26:41.920 Right the way, the way, the way the US maintained 2:26:41.920 --> 2:26:44.840 is ueopolitical and economic power was by a network and 2:26:44.879 --> 2:26:47.200 system of alliances with a bunch of the you know, 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:49.760 with their allies and sort of in places like Japan, 2:26:50.040 --> 2:26:53.080 but also you know, across Western Europe, they maintained this 2:26:53.160 --> 2:26:55.560 series of economic and political alliances that was able to 2:26:56.000 --> 2:26:58.800 win the Cold War. I you know, make make the 2:26:58.920 --> 2:27:02.000 US like the world's low and superpower. But in order 2:27:02.000 --> 2:27:04.959 for it to function, the US has to like maintain 2:27:05.120 --> 2:27:08.040 the alliance system even as it's doing imperial power protection 2:27:08.120 --> 2:27:09.160 and use its allies. 2:27:10.000 --> 2:27:13.520 Well, and like the US is power primarily has always 2:27:13.520 --> 2:27:15.560 come from the fact that like or at least in 2:27:15.600 --> 2:27:18.760 this century, has been from the fact that we are 2:27:18.760 --> 2:27:20.680 the center of the global economy. 2:27:21.040 --> 2:27:23.880 Yeah, right, And and the second part of it has 2:27:23.920 --> 2:27:27.320 been has been its ability to wield power in international institutions, right, yeah, 2:27:27.520 --> 2:27:29.440 you know, the US seizing control of the IMF and 2:27:29.480 --> 2:27:32.000 the World Bank, and and you know, using sort of 2:27:32.040 --> 2:27:34.960 trade like trade doctrine to to sort of empower itself. 2:27:35.520 --> 2:27:38.560 And this is all fucking gone. The US is alienating 2:27:38.680 --> 2:27:41.160 like everyone in the fucking globe basically except for except 2:27:41.160 --> 2:27:44.720 for Russia. And you know, now we're entering this really 2:27:45.280 --> 2:27:49.680 kind of Argentina maybe well well well well we'll see, 2:27:50.000 --> 2:27:53.480 we'll see how long that government holds just like okay, yeah, 2:27:53.520 --> 2:27:56.680 but you know, like and the thing that it's pivoting 2:27:56.720 --> 2:27:59.160 to now, right is the stuff that used to be 2:27:59.840 --> 2:28:03.039 the there'd be a sort of like coalition thing, and 2:28:03.320 --> 2:28:05.760 and American corporations would do this stuff behind the scenes. 2:28:05.879 --> 2:28:08.520 Is now just unbelievably explicit. The US is just straight 2:28:08.600 --> 2:28:13.560 up openly doing resource colonialism, like they're straight up they're 2:28:13.640 --> 2:28:17.959 demanding that Ukraine exchange its mineral resources for protection, like 2:28:18.200 --> 2:28:19.720 it is straight up a protection racket. 2:28:19.800 --> 2:28:20.000 Yeah. 2:28:20.040 --> 2:28:21.840 The proposed way that it works. 2:28:22.120 --> 2:28:24.360 Is that there's going to be like a quote unquote 2:28:24.400 --> 2:28:28.400 development fund controlled by the US and Ukraine like jointly. 2:28:28.480 --> 2:28:30.560 But I mean it's it's just gonna control by the US. 2:28:30.720 --> 2:28:32.360 I don't know why people are pretending that Ukraine is 2:28:32.400 --> 2:28:34.320 going to like have a say in this. I'm going 2:28:34.400 --> 2:28:36.360 to read from the proposed agreement. We don't know what 2:28:36.360 --> 2:28:38.520 the text of the final agreement is going to be. 2:28:39.200 --> 2:28:42.960 Zelenski has recently expressed that he's willing to sign it, 2:28:43.000 --> 2:28:44.480 but we don't know exactly what's going to look like. 2:28:44.520 --> 2:28:47.039 Here's here's the quote for the document that we had. 2:28:47.800 --> 2:28:50.400 The Government of Ukraine will contribute to the fund fifty 2:28:50.440 --> 2:28:53.520 percent of all revenues earned from the future modestization of 2:28:53.600 --> 2:28:58.240 all relevant Ukrainian government owned natural resource assets, whether owned 2:28:58.280 --> 2:29:02.720 directly or indirectly by the Ukrainian governments defined as deposits 2:29:02.760 --> 2:29:06.760 of minerals, hydrocarbons, oil, natural gas and other extractable minerals, 2:29:07.040 --> 2:29:11.240 and other infrastructure relevant to natural resource assets such as 2:29:11.280 --> 2:29:15.480 liquefied natural gas terminals and port infrastructure, as agreed by 2:29:15.480 --> 2:29:18.480 both participants, as maybe further described in the fund agreements. 2:29:19.560 --> 2:29:22.400 Another quote, the funds investment process will be designed so 2:29:22.480 --> 2:29:25.039 as to invest in projects in Ukraine and intract investments 2:29:25.040 --> 2:29:29.560 to increase the development, processing, and monetization of all public 2:29:29.840 --> 2:29:34.520 and private Ukrainian assets, including but not limited to, deposits 2:29:34.520 --> 2:29:38.359 of minerals, hydrocarbons, oil, natural gas, et cetera, et cetera, ports, 2:29:38.400 --> 2:29:41.640 and state owned enterprises, as may be further described in 2:29:41.680 --> 2:29:44.120 the fund agreements. So what they're talking about here is 2:29:44.400 --> 2:29:48.000 not just like seizing control of Ukrainian mineral reasearchs. They're 2:29:48.000 --> 2:29:50.840 talking about like privatizing the Ukrainian state and selling it 2:29:50.879 --> 2:29:53.000 off and taking the profits from that. They are talking 2:29:53.040 --> 2:29:56.640 about seizing ports, which I have seen no media coverage of. 2:29:56.760 --> 2:29:58.520 I do not know why it is any agreement. You 2:29:58.520 --> 2:29:59.360 can just read it there. 2:30:00.280 --> 2:30:02.880 I I, notably on the show, am not like I 2:30:03.280 --> 2:30:04.920 am well known as not a China supporter. But I 2:30:04.959 --> 2:30:07.520 deeply remember for five years everyone losing their fucking minds 2:30:07.520 --> 2:30:10.080 about China doing this exact same fucking thing with port 2:30:10.160 --> 2:30:12.920 lease agreements, and they was just doing it now. And 2:30:13.080 --> 2:30:15.200 this is just what the new international order is going 2:30:15.240 --> 2:30:17.800 to be. It's the US just very very openly instead 2:30:17.800 --> 2:30:20.400 of instead of working through allies, instead of working through 2:30:20.440 --> 2:30:22.680 sort of like reshime shamed operations. It's just the US 2:30:22.680 --> 2:30:24.360 going to be going like, okay, like you are all 2:30:24.360 --> 2:30:27.080 going to die unless you give us all your money. 2:30:27.320 --> 2:30:30.199 Speaking of giving us all your money. 2:30:30.560 --> 2:30:33.560 Wow, hell yeah, that's right, magnificent. 2:30:34.000 --> 2:30:34.560 That was art. 2:30:34.760 --> 2:30:51.240 Here's some ads. All right, all right, we are back, Robert. 2:30:51.280 --> 2:30:52.520 You want to talk about Syria? 2:30:52.760 --> 2:30:54.360 Yeah, Syria. I hardly know you. 2:30:54.480 --> 2:30:58.080 Okay. Anyway, I was sent to a document by my 2:30:58.160 --> 2:31:03.039 good friend Joey Aub from the Fire This Time podcast 2:31:03.520 --> 2:31:07.240 if sorry, The Fire in These Times podcast. Joey's great. 2:31:07.320 --> 2:31:09.680 It's a document that the US is sending out to 2:31:09.920 --> 2:31:12.039 NGOs around the world. This one was sent to an 2:31:12.240 --> 2:31:15.880 NGO doing humanitarian work in Syria, and it's basically, you 2:31:15.959 --> 2:31:18.240 have to fill this out in order to have a 2:31:18.360 --> 2:31:22.240 chance of retaining the funding that has been paused right now, right, 2:31:22.400 --> 2:31:25.000 So it's part of the USAID pause. If you want 2:31:25.040 --> 2:31:27.560 to get that money, you have to fill this out 2:31:27.600 --> 2:31:29.560 and basically prove that you are in line with the 2:31:29.600 --> 2:31:32.440 new executive orders and policies of the United States government. 2:31:32.720 --> 2:31:34.440 There's a bunch of questions on here that you have 2:31:34.520 --> 2:31:36.120 to answer. A lot of them are yes, no, and 2:31:36.160 --> 2:31:38.080 some many of them are just like normal shit. 2:31:38.240 --> 2:31:38.440 Right. 2:31:38.600 --> 2:31:41.920 Does your organization have a current risk management frameworker policy? 2:31:42.000 --> 2:31:42.200 Yes? 2:31:42.240 --> 2:31:42.280 No? 2:31:42.440 --> 2:31:45.560 If yes, please describe the framework or policy right, not 2:31:46.360 --> 2:31:49.120 extreme or anything like that. You have to say that 2:31:49.160 --> 2:31:52.840 you're not working with cartels, narco human traffickers. But then 2:31:52.879 --> 2:31:55.400 you have to say you have not quote organized groups 2:31:55.400 --> 2:31:59.119 that promote mass migration in the last ten years, which 2:31:59.200 --> 2:32:02.520 is interesting, and when you're dealing with like war torn 2:32:02.560 --> 2:32:06.200 areas that are helping like refugees escape is clearly going 2:32:06.240 --> 2:32:08.039 to be damaging to a lot of NGOs that have 2:32:08.080 --> 2:32:09.879 done very good work to save people. 2:32:10.080 --> 2:32:10.680 Yeah. No. 2:32:10.760 --> 2:32:13.360 Number five is does your organization encourage free speech and 2:32:13.480 --> 2:32:16.359 encourage open debate and free sharing of information? 2:32:16.879 --> 2:32:17.080 Yes? 2:32:17.200 --> 2:32:17.240 No? 2:32:18.160 --> 2:32:20.520 And then right under that, does your organization have a 2:32:20.560 --> 2:32:24.120 clear policy of prohibiting any collaboratoration, funding, or support for 2:32:24.280 --> 2:32:28.800 entities that advocate or implement policies contrary to US government interests. 2:32:29.120 --> 2:32:33.920 So free speech unless it's not stuff that we like, right, Yeah, 2:32:34.080 --> 2:32:35.959 that kind of always been the way to be fair. 2:32:36.040 --> 2:32:38.000 Now kind of the most I mean not kind of 2:32:38.120 --> 2:32:41.800 by a wide margin. The most fucked up thing about 2:32:41.840 --> 2:32:44.840 this is that it then goes down again right after 2:32:44.879 --> 2:32:47.359 the free speech thing. First off, I should note number eleven, 2:32:47.440 --> 2:32:50.160 after the free speech question, can you confirm your organization 2:32:50.240 --> 2:32:53.199 does not work with entities that associated with communist, socialist 2:32:53.320 --> 2:32:58.520 or totalitarian parties? And then below that is a basically 2:32:58.520 --> 2:33:00.800 a question of like whether or not, and they frame 2:33:00.840 --> 2:33:03.440 it as like, does this project take appropriate measures to 2:33:03.480 --> 2:33:06.760 protect women and to defend against gender ideology? Is to 2:33:06.800 --> 2:33:09.600 find in the below executive order, and then it links 2:33:09.600 --> 2:33:12.560 to the Defending Women from gender ideology extremism and Restoring 2:33:12.600 --> 2:33:16.480 Biological Truth to the Federal Government executive Order. And then 2:33:16.640 --> 2:33:19.320 it asks does the project take appropriate measures to protect 2:33:19.400 --> 2:33:22.920 children and links to the same executive order. So it 2:33:23.000 --> 2:33:27.120 is basically saying your organization has to support effectively like 2:33:27.200 --> 2:33:31.680 transphobic policies in Syria in order to continue to get 2:33:31.840 --> 2:33:34.720 US money, right, and the fact that that is numer 2:33:34.720 --> 2:33:38.879 one a requirement for aid organizations receiving aid worldwide now 2:33:39.480 --> 2:33:43.360 is deeply harmful. And it's also just like Syria was 2:33:43.400 --> 2:33:49.280 already transphobic, like the Syrian governments not really pro trans 2:33:50.000 --> 2:33:52.600 but the fact that this is just being like, this 2:33:52.640 --> 2:33:54.680 is going to be like across the board, Yes, everywhere, 2:33:54.680 --> 2:33:57.520 This is going to be everywhere in the world. If 2:33:57.560 --> 2:34:00.000 we want to get US funds to save human life, 2:34:00.320 --> 2:34:03.560 to stop the spread of diseases, you have to officially 2:34:03.680 --> 2:34:08.760 embrace transphobic policies. That's that's the stance of the United 2:34:08.760 --> 2:34:12.360 States government that that matters more than stopping the spread 2:34:12.360 --> 2:34:13.520 of a bowlet in the congo. 2:34:14.080 --> 2:34:17.040 Oh yeah, this is like particularly worrying for you know, 2:34:17.240 --> 2:34:20.480 HIV preventative measures across the world as well. Most of 2:34:20.520 --> 2:34:23.640 the language that's used there has been heavily targeted. We're 2:34:23.760 --> 2:34:25.840 just gonna get a whole bunch of people sick and 2:34:25.879 --> 2:34:28.199 die yep, because of these actions. 2:34:28.640 --> 2:34:30.760 Yeah, until it starts getting people sick and dead in 2:34:30.800 --> 2:34:33.680 this country. But we probably won't stop then. 2:34:33.879 --> 2:34:37.560 Probably not. James, I p pivot to you on our 2:34:38.040 --> 2:34:39.800 semi regular border update. 2:34:40.200 --> 2:34:42.840 Yeah, it's me the border guy. I was down at 2:34:42.840 --> 2:34:45.800 the United States border this weekend, the one with Mexico 2:34:45.840 --> 2:34:48.199 and not the Canada one. And when I got back 2:34:48.280 --> 2:34:51.199 from the border, I saw an announcement from the Pentagon 2:34:51.560 --> 2:34:55.359 which announced the deployment of a strike A Brigade combat 2:34:55.400 --> 2:34:59.680 team and an aviation battalion. So what's the strike A 2:34:59.680 --> 2:35:02.400 Brigade Combat team, you ask. Normally they are like four 2:35:02.840 --> 2:35:05.480 four hundred soldiers. In this case are sending twenty four 2:35:05.560 --> 2:35:08.040 hundred soldiers from the fourth Infantry Division based in four 2:35:08.160 --> 2:35:11.640 Cartson in Colorado. Strike up gad combat teams are based 2:35:11.680 --> 2:35:18.320 around strikers. Strikers. They are armored fighting vehicles with eight wheels. 2:35:18.560 --> 2:35:19.280 They're pretty cool. 2:35:19.480 --> 2:35:19.720 H Yeah. 2:35:20.240 --> 2:35:21.840 Yeah, I've hung out in a couple. 2:35:22.480 --> 2:35:25.720 A lot of them have fully automatic grenade lodgers. Yeah, 2:35:25.760 --> 2:35:28.480 they have decent air conditioning, you know, big. 2:35:28.360 --> 2:35:32.720 Vehicle outside, small vehicle inside, as with all military vehicles. 2:35:33.000 --> 2:35:36.280 Great when you're six foot three like me, but famously 2:35:37.040 --> 2:35:40.879 not really something you can use for like policing the border. 2:35:41.000 --> 2:35:43.440 No, Honestly, a lot of arguments as to whether or 2:35:43.520 --> 2:35:46.480 not they were good at their stated role in warfare. 2:35:47.680 --> 2:35:50.720 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Bradley's have been having to 2:35:50.720 --> 2:35:53.640 come back in Ukraine. The striker is not so much. 2:35:54.160 --> 2:35:57.440 What they're not good at is moving through incredibly rugged 2:35:57.480 --> 2:35:59.720 mountainous train that stuff. Where I was on Saturday. 2:36:00.160 --> 2:36:02.920 This is something Chuds don't understand, because a popular thing 2:36:02.959 --> 2:36:06.240 among Chuds is to take their Toyota Tundras or their 2:36:06.320 --> 2:36:09.000 f one to fifties or their Jeep Gladiators and send 2:36:09.040 --> 2:36:11.240 them down to this company in Florida that adds an 2:36:11.280 --> 2:36:13.520 extra axle in two more wheels so that they have 2:36:13.640 --> 2:36:16.760 six wheels, because they think it makes truck go better. 2:36:19.480 --> 2:36:23.400 Why it ruins everything. It's a horrible wet thing to 2:36:23.480 --> 2:36:25.920 do to a tract. I know the people at Jeep 2:36:25.920 --> 2:36:28.200 have actually been thinking about how to make Jeep that 2:36:28.560 --> 2:36:32.039 for quite a while. Actually very amusingly. The place I 2:36:32.280 --> 2:36:35.360 was down at the border this weekend, there's a very 2:36:35.440 --> 2:36:37.160 rugged road that you drive down and then you get 2:36:37.160 --> 2:36:38.959 off and you hike. And I remember a few years 2:36:38.959 --> 2:36:43.240 ago a guy fresh minty fresh tid hundress straight off 2:36:43.240 --> 2:36:47.360 the lot. And I've just negotiated this in a nineteen 2:36:47.440 --> 2:36:50.800 eighties Erra Toyot to pick up with my friends standing 2:36:50.800 --> 2:36:53.280 in the back to counterbalance and add weight as we go. 2:36:54.120 --> 2:36:56.240 I offered the spot for this guy he says, no, 2:36:56.320 --> 2:36:59.920 he doesn't need it because it's a tid immediately destroys. Excellent. 2:37:00.280 --> 2:37:02.600 Oh yeah, very beautiful. Love to see. 2:37:02.720 --> 2:37:05.520 These strikers are doing pretty good as well, we're hearing. 2:37:05.760 --> 2:37:08.080 Yeah, so we're excited to see the strike. Perfect perfect 2:37:08.160 --> 2:37:12.520 vehicle for the terrade. The other vehicles that we're going 2:37:12.600 --> 2:37:15.520 to see are UH sixty black Hawks and Shnooks from 2:37:15.520 --> 2:37:19.080 the General Support Aviation Battalion who are deploying alongside them. 2:37:19.600 --> 2:37:23.080 They are also about eleven hundred soldiers from sustainment units, right, 2:37:23.120 --> 2:37:27.960 people who facilitate the in this case, infantry and aviation deployment. 2:37:28.760 --> 2:37:32.840 There's some public affairs soldiers, there's people with logistics, people 2:37:32.840 --> 2:37:36.040 who are going to help make this deployment happen. Right 2:37:36.320 --> 2:37:39.640 In the press release, NORTHCOM that's the North American Command 2:37:39.640 --> 2:37:42.640 of the United States Military, New United States Army said 2:37:43.120 --> 2:37:45.320 to us, carried out by a second striker. A gade 2:37:45.320 --> 2:37:51.320 combat team will include detection and monitoring, administrative support, transportation support, warehousing, 2:37:51.400 --> 2:37:55.840 logistics support, vehicle maintenance, and engineering support. Personnel will not 2:37:55.959 --> 2:38:00.160 conduct or be involved in interdiction or deportation operations. This 2:38:00.240 --> 2:38:04.640 is the the Possycommatatis thing. Right, that they're not directly 2:38:04.680 --> 2:38:06.200 going to be doing cop stuff. It's going to be 2:38:06.200 --> 2:38:10.120 helping border patrol do cop stuff supposedly, But this is 2:38:10.560 --> 2:38:13.000 still very different to the previous deployment. We saw that 2:38:13.280 --> 2:38:18.360 the previous deployments were of like engineers and military police. Right, 2:38:18.440 --> 2:38:20.879 So the engineers and the marine cor engineers, what they 2:38:20.920 --> 2:38:22.280 seem to do is get up every day and put 2:38:22.360 --> 2:38:25.000 razor wire on fence and then wait for someone to 2:38:25.000 --> 2:38:27.400 take photographs and put razor war on fence again, right, And. 2:38:27.440 --> 2:38:31.000 Marines love putting razor wire up. It's not the job 2:38:31.040 --> 2:38:32.440 that everyone hates the most. 2:38:33.840 --> 2:38:36.880 Yeah, yeah, everyone le's razor wire. Handling razor wire is 2:38:36.879 --> 2:38:37.640 famously fine. 2:38:37.760 --> 2:38:38.120 Easy. 2:38:38.480 --> 2:38:39.800 Does it get you horribly? 2:38:39.840 --> 2:38:42.560 Cut the fuck out? Yeah, it's just what you're signed 2:38:42.640 --> 2:38:44.879 up to do. I think what are the MP's doing 2:38:45.680 --> 2:38:50.320 that they will be facilitating CBP operations. I'm guessing like singing, 2:38:51.480 --> 2:38:54.600 like helping with intelligence that kind of stuff. Probably anti 2:38:54.720 --> 2:38:57.440 drone stuff. There's been a lot of talk about drones. 2:38:58.400 --> 2:39:01.040 I have not seen any small drones. Most of the 2:39:01.040 --> 2:39:03.160 areas where I go in the border of federal wilderness 2:39:03.240 --> 2:39:05.400 or state wilderness, so drones aren't allowed there any way. 2:39:05.400 --> 2:39:08.320 But I've never seen one. What makes this different is 2:39:08.360 --> 2:39:11.120 that these are infantry soldiers, right, Like, this is a 2:39:11.160 --> 2:39:15.039 concentration of troops. Everyone in the military that kills people, 2:39:15.040 --> 2:39:17.440 that helps people kill people. These are the killing people, 2:39:17.480 --> 2:39:25.560 guys and girls and well and a closeted they thems. Yeah, 2:39:25.800 --> 2:39:27.600 if you're a close to day them in a military, 2:39:27.840 --> 2:39:30.400 best of luck to you. That's what makes it different. Right. 2:39:30.400 --> 2:39:34.359 This is a significant concentration of troops on the border 2:39:34.959 --> 2:39:37.600 with one of our allies. This is coming as the 2:39:37.680 --> 2:39:41.320 United States has used drone over flights to pass information 2:39:41.440 --> 2:39:45.160 to Mexican authorities that resulted in the arrest of cartel 2:39:45.560 --> 2:39:50.199 personnel in Sinaloa. Right. So it is a significant change, 2:39:50.200 --> 2:39:54.080 and I imagine, based on what I've heard from sources, 2:39:54.120 --> 2:39:57.040 that we will see more of this. Right, the US's 2:39:57.080 --> 2:40:00.480 deployable infantry troops will be coming to the border. It 2:40:00.560 --> 2:40:03.959 means that we might soon be seeing foot patrols, right, 2:40:04.560 --> 2:40:06.920 soldiers on foot walking through the mountains to the border, 2:40:06.920 --> 2:40:09.360 because we ain't going to see striker mounted patrols out 2:40:09.360 --> 2:40:12.560 there if they want to keep their strikers. They're adding 2:40:12.600 --> 2:40:15.360 more helicopter assets, right, which can both move people to 2:40:15.440 --> 2:40:20.520 more remote areas and do more surveillance. Surveillance, I would assume, yeah, yeah, 2:40:20.680 --> 2:40:22.840 I mean, like when a hiker was shot down at 2:40:22.840 --> 2:40:24.959 the border a few weeks ago, and I was out 2:40:25.000 --> 2:40:29.440 there very quickly thereafter, and they used a UH sixty first. Well, 2:40:29.480 --> 2:40:31.360 actually didn't evacuate the person in the UA sixty. They 2:40:31.400 --> 2:40:32.959 went in the UA sixty of acted them in a 2:40:33.080 --> 2:40:37.200 uicopter and then another military black hawk's kind of flying 2:40:37.240 --> 2:40:39.320 over after that, and I'm guessing that was just to 2:40:39.400 --> 2:40:43.119 kind of provide cover for the like the first responders 2:40:43.160 --> 2:40:45.520 right who were going there to I think in that case, 2:40:45.520 --> 2:40:48.000 they're investigating the scene. The person had been evacuated, but 2:40:49.040 --> 2:40:51.080 there are very remote areas of the border which probably 2:40:51.080 --> 2:40:53.920 our best access by helicopter, and so that's what they 2:40:53.959 --> 2:40:58.120 will be doing. But this does represent a significant concentration 2:40:58.200 --> 2:40:59.879 of combat troops on the border with that ally, which 2:40:59.920 --> 2:41:00.920 is not a normal thing to do. 2:41:01.360 --> 2:41:03.160 And it's worth bearing in mind that as we're doing 2:41:03.160 --> 2:41:04.720 troop build US in the Mexican border, there are a 2:41:04.800 --> 2:41:07.920 lot of people in the Trump administration who want to 2:41:08.000 --> 2:41:11.480 do just full on cross border US military operations in Mexico. 2:41:11.560 --> 2:41:14.160 They want to do invasions, They want to do like 2:41:14.480 --> 2:41:16.480 what what they think of as like hell actions. 2:41:17.440 --> 2:41:21.000 So yeah, sort of support for like drone strikes right now, 2:41:21.600 --> 2:41:25.240 which the terrorist designation does kind of pave a road to. 2:41:25.800 --> 2:41:28.320 But obviously it's worth noting for those not familiar that 2:41:28.360 --> 2:41:30.160 Mexico is a different country and you don't just get 2:41:30.200 --> 2:41:32.240 to drone strike other countries. That's an active war. 2:41:32.680 --> 2:41:35.720 Well, and speaking of they them's in the military, I 2:41:35.720 --> 2:41:37.800 will do a quick follow up before we go on break. 2:41:38.040 --> 2:41:41.560 We mentioned last week about efforts from the Navy to 2:41:42.959 --> 2:41:46.039 house trans naval. 2:41:47.400 --> 2:41:50.880 Members sailors. 2:41:50.920 --> 2:41:53.240 I guess I guess they kind of all are sailors, 2:41:53.280 --> 2:41:57.760 aren't they, But basically, how's them with people matching their 2:41:58.240 --> 2:42:01.199 assigned gender at birth, same thing with access to intimate 2:42:01.240 --> 2:42:05.240 spaces like bathrooms. This has escalated further to now a 2:42:05.360 --> 2:42:10.840 general quasi ban of trans people from the military altogether, 2:42:11.480 --> 2:42:15.080 with a few implementation paths towards this a form of 2:42:15.080 --> 2:42:17.760 like don't ask, don't tell. We will report on this 2:42:17.879 --> 2:42:19.680 more in the future as a part of a larger 2:42:19.720 --> 2:42:23.320 piece on the lavender scare currently happening across the government. 2:42:23.680 --> 2:42:26.560 But that that did happen literally like a few hours 2:42:26.600 --> 2:42:31.000 after we record it we got word that they are 2:42:31.000 --> 2:42:34.760 seeking to just band trans people from the military altogether. Anyway, 2:42:34.959 --> 2:42:38.640 we will go on break and return to talk tar Us. 2:42:51.840 --> 2:42:52.280 We're back. 2:42:52.320 --> 2:42:55.040 Hey, I wanted to note something I was unaware of 2:42:55.120 --> 2:42:58.080 because I have not changed my friend's name and my phone, 2:42:58.080 --> 2:43:02.119 but Joey now goes by a ya ayub. I apologize 2:43:02.160 --> 2:43:05.959 for the error there, but James corrected me. 2:43:06.040 --> 2:43:08.080 So we're good team. What makes a dream work? 2:43:08.920 --> 2:43:12.160 And never changing people's names in my phone makes well? 2:43:12.160 --> 2:43:14.840 Actually, I usually I was gonna say, I'm impressed you 2:43:14.920 --> 2:43:16.160 have a name saved in. 2:43:16.120 --> 2:43:20.000 Your LEAs is a friend, so I actually have their 2:43:20.080 --> 2:43:23.039 name saved in my phone. Ninety percent of the texts 2:43:23.080 --> 2:43:25.120 coming at me at any given time is just a 2:43:25.160 --> 2:43:29.320 series of unlabeled phone numbers, and it's chaos. I'm just 2:43:29.400 --> 2:43:32.879 guessing that people are who someone I should be in 2:43:32.920 --> 2:43:33.600 contact with. 2:43:34.160 --> 2:43:37.879 That's absurd. Well, there's no tariffs or butts about it. 2:43:37.959 --> 2:43:46.280 But the economy is it a bad spot? No, I 2:43:46.720 --> 2:43:47.120 was gonna do. 2:43:47.320 --> 2:43:50.080 I was gonna do speaking of absurd but no, no, 2:43:50.240 --> 2:43:50.840 even worse. 2:43:51.360 --> 2:43:53.039 Worser Gar said. 2:43:53.640 --> 2:43:56.440 You know what, Gear, I'm proud of you. That's almost 2:43:56.480 --> 2:43:58.760 as good as my rock. The kas bad joke. 2:43:59.400 --> 2:44:02.560 Yeah, well I don't want to do tariff talk. No, 2:44:02.959 --> 2:44:06.320 but where do we do it? Anyways, So. 2:44:08.320 --> 2:44:12.080 After those horrors we got, we have other horrors question mark. 2:44:12.240 --> 2:44:18.160 So on Tuesday, Trump's tariffs on Canada and Mexico and 2:44:18.320 --> 2:44:21.760 also an additional ten percent tariff on China went into effect. 2:44:21.800 --> 2:44:25.039 So these are twenty five percent across the board tariffs. 2:44:25.200 --> 2:44:27.200 There's some I think there are only like ten percent 2:44:27.240 --> 2:44:31.000 on Canadian oil, Canadian energy, Yeah, yeah, like energy stuff. 2:44:31.040 --> 2:44:33.800 Weirdly that's not also applied to Mexico, even though we 2:44:34.000 --> 2:44:35.080 there's a shit ton of oil. 2:44:35.520 --> 2:44:35.920 I don't know. 2:44:36.120 --> 2:44:39.240 And at sort of the last moment, if there was 2:44:39.320 --> 2:44:43.400 a kind of he got called by all three of 2:44:43.480 --> 2:44:46.080 the heads of the big three auto manufacturers who were like, 2:44:46.120 --> 2:44:48.400 if you don't exclude auto tariffs, we're all gonna die. 2:44:48.920 --> 2:44:53.320 So he's he's like pushed tariffs out for one month. 2:44:53.360 --> 2:44:57.000 They're suspended on automotive imports. We still don't know what 2:44:57.000 --> 2:44:59.440 the fuck that actually means, because it's unclear whether he 2:44:59.640 --> 2:45:02.000 just means like cars and trucks or whether it also 2:45:02.000 --> 2:45:06.720 glues auto parts deeply unclear. There's also all tariff alune 2:45:06.720 --> 2:45:09.520 women steel imports. He announced that a tariff on in 2:45:09.760 --> 2:45:11.440 the speech, the copp rolem we knew about I don't 2:45:11.440 --> 2:45:13.680 think we knew about the illune women steel imports, which 2:45:13.680 --> 2:45:16.720 are new, which are also going to be sort of catastrophic. 2:45:17.160 --> 2:45:20.680 I want to read this amazing CM quote from CNBC. 2:45:21.920 --> 2:45:25.160 Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick said that Trump's tariff will cause 2:45:25.240 --> 2:45:28.879 quote higher prices, but he maintained that only some products 2:45:28.920 --> 2:45:31.519 would be affected and that price hikes would be temporary. 2:45:31.959 --> 2:45:35.280 Famously, price hikes are only temporary. Hold on, hold on, 2:45:35.400 --> 2:45:37.240 it gets better. We got to the good part. 2:45:37.280 --> 2:45:41.400 Yet, Lutnick consisted that those rising prices should not be 2:45:41.480 --> 2:45:45.200 considered inflation. Okay, as the President said last night, there's 2:45:45.240 --> 2:45:46.840 going to be a short period where there'd be some 2:45:46.920 --> 2:45:49.760 higher prices on certain products, the cabinet secretary said on 2:45:49.800 --> 2:45:53.800 Fox News, it's not inflation. That's nonsense, certain products for 2:45:53.800 --> 2:45:57.760 a short period of time. He said, Now, now the 2:45:57.879 --> 2:46:00.520 definition of inflation, and I kind of have it's enough, 2:46:00.560 --> 2:46:01.520 is prices going up? 2:46:01.800 --> 2:46:05.680 So great? Great stuff here. 2:46:05.720 --> 2:46:08.720 There's also you know, as this has been unfolding, there 2:46:08.760 --> 2:46:12.200 are been reciprocal tariffs from Canada. The first round of 2:46:12.240 --> 2:46:16.480 negotiation between Trump and Trudeau basically went nowhere. Canada's putting 2:46:16.480 --> 2:46:19.800 tariffs on and this is true of both Canada and China, 2:46:19.800 --> 2:46:23.320 who have both done reciprocal tariffs. They've been more limited, 2:46:23.520 --> 2:46:28.120 They're only targeting sort of specific sectors. Well, the Chinese 2:46:28.240 --> 2:46:31.680 rates are lower. China's Yeah, rates are really a ton 2:46:31.720 --> 2:46:34.200 of fifteen percent, the big one from China. And I'm 2:46:34.280 --> 2:46:36.800 very confused about this whole the way everyone's talking about this, 2:46:36.840 --> 2:46:39.000 because everyone only seems to be talking about Canada and 2:46:39.000 --> 2:46:41.160 Mexico and these, even though the terriff rate on China 2:46:41.200 --> 2:46:42.039 is now up to twenty percent. 2:46:42.240 --> 2:46:45.480 Yeah, he did it out of two steps, right like that. Yeah, yeah, 2:46:45.520 --> 2:46:46.800 he slid under the Rada. 2:46:47.240 --> 2:46:49.680 You know obviously, Like yeah, okay, So like the US 2:46:49.760 --> 2:46:51.600 and Mexico and the US and Canada have the two 2:46:51.640 --> 2:46:55.360 largest trading relationships on Earth. However, Comma, the Chinese reciprocal 2:46:55.400 --> 2:46:58.440 tariffs are really going to hurt because one of the 2:46:58.440 --> 2:47:01.800 big things that they're targeting is US soybean exports. Now, 2:47:01.959 --> 2:47:04.920 we do twelve billion dollars of soybean exports per year. 2:47:05.520 --> 2:47:09.520 This matters enormously though. It has an outsized impact regardless 2:47:09.520 --> 2:47:13.400 of sort of the dollar amounts here because Midwest farming, 2:47:13.560 --> 2:47:16.600 huge parts of it is based on yearly rotations between 2:47:16.640 --> 2:47:19.039 soybeans and corn to maintain soil quality. Right, like the 2:47:19.080 --> 2:47:21.520 farm like that I grew up near, Like this is 2:47:21.520 --> 2:47:23.560 what they did, right, this is this a massive portion 2:47:23.600 --> 2:47:25.120 of mid West and agriculture functions off of this. 2:47:25.200 --> 2:47:28.400 Well, it's just also just like soybeans and corn are 2:47:28.520 --> 2:47:35.160 like primarily what human beings grow. Yeah yeah, and rice 2:47:35.280 --> 2:47:36.680 like those are really the big three. 2:47:36.959 --> 2:47:40.080 You can't you can't eat that corn, but yeah, look. 2:47:40.000 --> 2:47:41.959 You don't, but it's part of your foods. 2:47:42.080 --> 2:47:45.640 Eventually it becomes definitly yeah, yeah, it's corn syrup and ship. 2:47:45.520 --> 2:47:47.080 But yeah, well corn syrup. 2:47:47.120 --> 2:47:49.840 And also it's you know what the animals be yeah yeah, 2:47:49.840 --> 2:47:51.680 when they feeded to cattle and chickens. 2:47:51.760 --> 2:47:54.160 Yeah, and so this this is going to have a 2:47:54.160 --> 2:47:57.440 massive disruption on American agriculture. Trump has also been talking 2:47:57.440 --> 2:48:02.000 about imposing attacks on all American agricultural exports. Is some 2:48:02.000 --> 2:48:05.440 sort of weird like American autarchy thing. So interest the 2:48:05.480 --> 2:48:07.480 thing people are calling this a teriff, This is not 2:48:07.560 --> 2:48:09.760 a tariff. You don't impose tariffs on something that you 2:48:09.800 --> 2:48:12.360 are exporting to How this works, You know, like you 2:48:12.360 --> 2:48:14.600 can go back to a basic Hey, division of powers. 2:48:14.600 --> 2:48:16.680 Congress has the power of taxation. Wait, how is he 2:48:16.720 --> 2:48:19.080 doing who knows? I don't know where We're so far 2:48:19.160 --> 2:48:21.560 beyond that. But like the thing that he's hinting at 2:48:21.920 --> 2:48:24.680 here right, like if he really is trying to sort 2:48:24.680 --> 2:48:33.720 of like prevent all US agricultural exports, this is apocalyptic. Yeah, 2:48:33.760 --> 2:48:35.680 and it's also worth noting this thing has also been 2:48:35.680 --> 2:48:36.280 lost in the news. 2:48:36.320 --> 2:48:38.080 But he's been talking about this. He's been talking about. 2:48:37.879 --> 2:48:40.879 Doing these tariffs to the EU twenty five percent across 2:48:40.920 --> 2:48:43.440 the bard terriffs of the EU. Now what I think 2:48:43.480 --> 2:48:46.840 is important. So the markets today on Wednesday have been 2:48:46.840 --> 2:48:50.320 going back up. They immediately tanked like Tuesday. This week 2:48:50.440 --> 2:48:54.640 was nasty like Monday, Tuesday was red. And what's happening 2:48:54.680 --> 2:48:57.879 here is that none of this shit, None of the analysts, 2:48:57.920 --> 2:48:59.720 none of the people getting paid like fucking thirty million 2:48:59.720 --> 2:49:01.039 dollars you do financial analysts? 2:49:01.040 --> 2:49:01.520 What other the fuck? 2:49:01.520 --> 2:49:03.440 Like, none of these people, none of them thought this 2:49:03.560 --> 2:49:05.760 these terrorists were actually going to happen. They all just assumed, 2:49:05.760 --> 2:49:07.000 but they were, Oh, he's not actually going to do it, 2:49:07.000 --> 2:49:08.959 He's not actually going to do it. This it's just negotiations. No, no, 2:49:09.240 --> 2:49:10.879 he's doing it, and he was going to do it. 2:49:11.160 --> 2:49:14.000 They probably will be like sector bisecondor negotiations to get 2:49:14.000 --> 2:49:17.560 temporary lifts on them. But none of this shit was 2:49:17.560 --> 2:49:20.200 priced in. None of the financial animalsts, like no one 2:49:20.240 --> 2:49:22.240 was doing business planning or whatever, like none of the 2:49:22.320 --> 2:49:24.720 ship was supposed to be real, you know. And what's 2:49:24.720 --> 2:49:27.640 happening right now is sort of like they're latching on 2:49:27.840 --> 2:49:30.039 to this thing with some of the auto terifts being 2:49:30.040 --> 2:49:32.200 lifted for a month again one month, not and not 2:49:32.240 --> 2:49:34.240 an actual lift, but one month. They're latching onto this 2:49:34.280 --> 2:49:36.440 and they're going, Okay, maybe we can sort of reverse this. 2:49:36.760 --> 2:49:40.200 But this is the first moment that the financial markets 2:49:40.240 --> 2:49:41.960 have actually had to grapple with the fact that Trump 2:49:42.000 --> 2:49:43.360 is going to do all of the shit he says 2:49:43.360 --> 2:49:46.320 he's going to do. And like, like that afternoon, Bloomberg 2:49:46.400 --> 2:49:48.280 had a guy on like calling Trump a dictator and 2:49:48.320 --> 2:49:50.720 saying he wasn't gonna have elections. We are beginning to 2:49:50.720 --> 2:49:54.360 see capital flight from the US, where investors are like 2:49:54.440 --> 2:49:57.320 are openly talking about like pulling their fucking money out 2:49:57.360 --> 2:49:59.360 of this country and pulling into somewhere else because it's 2:49:59.360 --> 2:50:01.600 no longer stable, and this is something that you know, 2:50:01.879 --> 2:50:03.640 I think the next dam will be when the US 2:50:03.720 --> 2:50:06.680 is like credit rating gets downgraded. But we're starting to 2:50:06.720 --> 2:50:10.360 see the damn break on the financial class and all 2:50:10.360 --> 2:50:13.080 of these analysts and like people on Wall Street realizing 2:50:13.959 --> 2:50:16.879 that no, he is going to continue to throw bombs 2:50:16.920 --> 2:50:19.320 at the entire world economy in order to sort of 2:50:19.320 --> 2:50:21.840 carry out He's like, I want to be like the 2:50:21.879 --> 2:50:23.600 fucking big man empire guy. 2:50:24.240 --> 2:50:28.400 I like Trudeau. I had a call with Trump on Wednesday, 2:50:28.680 --> 2:50:32.560 basically going, hey, what's what the fuck man? I thought 2:50:32.240 --> 2:50:35.080 I thought we had a deal, and Trump was like, well, 2:50:35.160 --> 2:50:37.640 I'm not seeing much progress on the whole Fentanel thing. 2:50:37.640 --> 2:50:39.959 And Trudeau's like, what the fuck are you talking about? 2:50:40.320 --> 2:50:44.840 And Trump then basically pointed towards him not being satisfied 2:50:45.240 --> 2:50:47.680 until there's a new Canadian government, like he is not 2:50:47.760 --> 2:50:50.440 going to want to lift these until Trudeau is out 2:50:50.440 --> 2:50:53.720 of office and ask Trudeau when the next Canadian election, 2:50:53.879 --> 2:50:56.080 is hinting towards the fact that he just is going 2:50:56.120 --> 2:50:59.320 to refuse to seriously negotiate with Trudeau and will wait 2:50:59.400 --> 2:51:02.160 until whoever the next guy is. Meanwhile, you haven't post 2:51:02.200 --> 2:51:05.440 from the Chinese embassy in the US, saying if war 2:51:05.560 --> 2:51:07.880 is what the US wants, be it a terraff war, 2:51:07.959 --> 2:51:11.400 a trade war, or any other type of war, We're 2:51:11.440 --> 2:51:13.080 ready to fight till the end. 2:51:13.480 --> 2:51:15.840 Yeah, I will say, I will say the guys they 2:51:15.840 --> 2:51:19.120 put on the embassy pr coms are dipshits, Like those 2:51:19.160 --> 2:51:21.840 are not the guys running the Chinese government. Those are 2:51:21.879 --> 2:51:24.960 like the fucking clowns they put at these administrative posts 2:51:25.040 --> 2:51:26.480 to like scream about wolf. 2:51:26.200 --> 2:51:27.280 Warriors or whatever the fuck. 2:51:27.800 --> 2:51:30.680 The reporting I've seen from inside the Chinese government is 2:51:30.720 --> 2:51:33.800 that they also were like what the fuck are you doing? 2:51:34.720 --> 2:51:38.600 And they're they're trying to figure out like okay, like 2:51:38.640 --> 2:51:42.480 how do you negotiate with this guy? Yeah, like yeah, 2:51:42.560 --> 2:51:44.960 they're having real issues because like for all, for all 2:51:45.000 --> 2:51:47.200 of the Chinese government does like this is a government 2:51:47.480 --> 2:51:48.199 of capitalists. 2:51:48.280 --> 2:51:50.080 They want to make money, and. 2:51:50.000 --> 2:51:52.640 They're looking at a guy who is willing to just 2:51:52.680 --> 2:51:53.879 blow the entire thing up. 2:51:54.480 --> 2:51:57.680 Here's my pitch for what we should do with China, right, 2:51:57.720 --> 2:52:00.160 you know, China has this border conflict with India that 2:52:00.240 --> 2:52:03.440 could endo the world, but usually just involves two groups 2:52:03.480 --> 2:52:06.600 of people with spears that were originally made in the 2:52:06.640 --> 2:52:11.760 thirteenth century having Felanx fights in the mountains. Yep, we 2:52:11.800 --> 2:52:15.280 should just send over a couple of thousand marines and 2:52:15.600 --> 2:52:18.199 do that with China. Get it all out of our systems, 2:52:18.240 --> 2:52:20.920 this whole all this war talk. Just have a couple 2:52:21.040 --> 2:52:23.879 thousand dudes, have a big old speared fight. We filmed 2:52:23.920 --> 2:52:26.120 The Son of a Bitch. We get some drones, we 2:52:26.240 --> 2:52:28.520 bring in, Maybe we bring in Tarantino. He'd be great 2:52:28.560 --> 2:52:29.360 to film the fucker. 2:52:29.640 --> 2:52:29.880 You know. 2:52:30.280 --> 2:52:32.920 We really just have a good time with it, and 2:52:32.959 --> 2:52:36.200 then we just go back to not not doing stuff 2:52:36.280 --> 2:52:36.600 like this. 2:52:38.360 --> 2:52:38.600 Look. 2:52:38.720 --> 2:52:40.840 I think if we get us and trying to compete 2:52:40.840 --> 2:52:42.480 each other in the against each other in the US 2:52:42.520 --> 2:52:44.840 Special Forces Games, and we show this to Donald Trump 2:52:45.680 --> 2:52:47.959 and we have the Chinese government take like a stage 2:52:48.040 --> 2:52:50.879 loss or something, we could solve most of our problems. 2:52:51.520 --> 2:52:53.600 You can just edit it to be whoever like for 2:52:53.640 --> 2:52:57.520 both countries. Right, have an America version and a China version. 2:52:58.120 --> 2:52:59.320 We already do this. 2:53:01.280 --> 2:53:01.480 Yeah. 2:53:03.160 --> 2:53:05.480 So the last sort of serious thing that I want 2:53:05.480 --> 2:53:08.560 to talk about here is that this, especially the stuff 2:53:08.560 --> 2:53:11.720 he's talking about with you, but also with sort of Canada, 2:53:12.640 --> 2:53:16.160 this has broken the sort of international coalition that all 2:53:16.200 --> 2:53:18.520 of these people have been setting up for a really 2:53:18.560 --> 2:53:21.760 long time, right, this whole sort of coalition of all 2:53:21.840 --> 2:53:24.480 the sort of world's right wing governments like coming together 2:53:24.520 --> 2:53:28.760 in this national thing, and like they're really fucked now. 2:53:28.879 --> 2:53:31.480 Like the Canadian right was just like about to take power, 2:53:31.680 --> 2:53:33.600 and they might not now. And even if they you 2:53:33.680 --> 2:53:35.240 take power, they're gonna have to like deal with the 2:53:35.240 --> 2:53:38.480 fact that they've all been like fucking maniac Trump supporters 2:53:38.480 --> 2:53:40.000 this whole time, and Trump has just been like fucking 2:53:40.000 --> 2:53:42.080 their entire country. And like these people are now talking 2:53:42.120 --> 2:53:45.040 about like again like shutting off power to the US. 2:53:45.640 --> 2:53:47.279 And this is happening. 2:53:46.959 --> 2:53:48.880 All over the world with all of these fascist parties 2:53:48.920 --> 2:53:50.400 who've been allied with the US right, they are now 2:53:50.440 --> 2:53:53.600 having to grapple with the fact that the US. 2:53:52.879 --> 2:53:54.880 Is just gonna it's just gonna fuck them. 2:53:55.080 --> 2:53:56.800 Weirdly, the thing it reminds me a lot is like 2:53:56.840 --> 2:53:58.600 the situation you've got at the end of the seventies 2:53:58.640 --> 2:54:01.160 in East Asia with the communists. It was like, Okay, 2:54:01.200 --> 2:54:03.760 so we have three nominally communist governments on the border 2:54:03.800 --> 2:54:05.800 with each other. Right you have China, you have Cabodia, 2:54:05.879 --> 2:54:07.960 and you have Vietnam and I guess you have flows 2:54:08.200 --> 2:54:10.080 and then in those three governments, instead of like forming 2:54:10.080 --> 2:54:12.080 a united block, like all go to war with each other. 2:54:12.240 --> 2:54:13.560 And that's like sort of what we're seeing with the 2:54:13.560 --> 2:54:15.879 fascist right now is like because Trump has decided to 2:54:15.959 --> 2:54:17.840 just be like fuck it, like we're just gonna do 2:54:17.879 --> 2:54:21.000 tariffs on everyone it has, it is really starting to 2:54:21.040 --> 2:54:25.560 tearrist coalition apart and hopefully this rolls back a bunch 2:54:25.560 --> 2:54:27.119 of their gains everywhere else in the world. 2:54:27.200 --> 2:54:29.800 And yeah, they suply chit. And I think Trump is 2:54:29.879 --> 2:54:33.040 using for leverage hair beyond even tariffs, like a cutting 2:54:33.040 --> 2:54:37.200 out Canada from the Five Eyes Intelligence Group, halting intel 2:54:37.240 --> 2:54:42.040 sharing with Ukraine, very very like drastic steps in terms 2:54:42.080 --> 2:54:44.680 of like national security and intel sharing. 2:54:44.840 --> 2:54:48.280 I mean, it's just deeply clear that what's happening is 2:54:48.480 --> 2:54:52.200 we're ending every single thing the US used to do 2:54:53.080 --> 2:54:55.960 that Trump does not see as a direct financial benefit, 2:54:56.640 --> 2:55:01.040 and largely aligning ourselves with Russia against every state that 2:55:01.080 --> 2:55:03.160 does not have the physical power to stop us. 2:55:03.400 --> 2:55:06.440 Yep, well that does it for us today. I know 2:55:06.600 --> 2:55:09.520 on Tuesday night, Trump did a speech to a joint 2:55:09.560 --> 2:55:13.160 session of Congress. We have a whole episode on that 2:55:13.160 --> 2:55:15.760 that released yesterday because there was just so much to 2:55:15.959 --> 2:55:18.320 talk about. So if you want to hear our thoughts 2:55:18.360 --> 2:55:23.200 on that, you can check out yesterday's episode on his 2:55:23.280 --> 2:55:27.440 congressional speech, Full of Somebody. A summary, yes, because the 2:55:27.440 --> 2:55:30.360 speech was very long, focused a lot on trans people, 2:55:30.440 --> 2:55:34.000 focused a lot on the border, talked about national security, 2:55:34.440 --> 2:55:38.560 really skipped over the economy because yeah, no, guys are great, 2:55:39.240 --> 2:55:41.800 because that's not really going too good. Keep shooting holes 2:55:41.800 --> 2:55:44.320 of it. Let's skip it over. That focused more on 2:55:44.360 --> 2:55:47.560 trans people as the single greatest threat facing this country. 2:55:48.160 --> 2:55:49.920 But yes, if you want to hear about that, check 2:55:49.920 --> 2:55:53.519 out yesterday's episode on the it could happen here feed. 2:55:53.360 --> 2:55:56.160 The shortest summary possible speech bad. 2:55:56.120 --> 2:55:59.920 Speech bad, Yeah, speech bad. The era of Woke is 2:56:00.160 --> 2:56:02.000 over would be the other summary I give. 2:56:03.240 --> 2:56:06.440 The era of woke is over. Where you're employed, if 2:56:06.760 --> 2:56:09.200 the era of Wok has ended your employment and you'd 2:56:09.240 --> 2:56:12.480 like to reach out to us, you can using our 2:56:12.520 --> 2:56:16.320 proton mail address. That doesn't mean that it's not like. 2:56:16.360 --> 2:56:18.120 If you're not using proton then it's not end to 2:56:18.160 --> 2:56:20.320 end encrypted. If you are, then it's encrypted, but it 2:56:20.320 --> 2:56:23.280 doesn't mean it's necessarily totally safe. So you need to 2:56:23.320 --> 2:56:26.360 do what you think is best. It is cool Zone 2:56:26.400 --> 2:56:30.360 tips at proton dot me. If you don't work for government, 2:56:30.400 --> 2:56:32.879 but you do work for Elon Musk in another capacity, 2:56:32.959 --> 2:56:35.080 it would also be very funny to hear from you 2:56:35.160 --> 2:56:38.400 about what that is like. So yeah, cool Zone tips 2:56:38.440 --> 2:56:39.920 at proton dot. 2:56:39.760 --> 2:56:44.320 Me increasingly relevant considering that Social Security layofs have started 2:56:44.560 --> 2:56:47.240 and they're now seeking to cut possibly upprints of fifty 2:56:47.320 --> 2:56:49.720 percent of the Social Security workforce. 2:56:49.920 --> 2:56:53.120 And the irs. So I'm sure that's going to work 2:56:53.120 --> 2:56:54.640 out great for government revenues. 2:56:54.879 --> 2:56:57.680 I'm sure everything will be fine and America will be 2:56:57.720 --> 2:56:59.560 back on top in no time. 2:57:00.160 --> 2:57:01.440 It is back. America is back. 2:57:01.440 --> 2:57:05.119 I learned that last night we reported the news. 2:57:05.400 --> 2:57:07.199 Yes, we certainly did. 2:57:07.680 --> 2:57:08.680 We reported the news. 2:57:14.360 --> 2:57:17.520 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:57:17.600 --> 2:57:19.520 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 2:57:20.240 --> 2:57:22.760 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 2:57:22.920 --> 2:57:26.000 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:57:26.080 --> 2:57:29.640 coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2:57:29.720 --> 2:57:33.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:57:33.320 --> 2:57:35.640 now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly 2:57:35.680 --> 2:57:37.960 in episode descriptions thanks for listening,