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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hi, everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's James today

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Speaker 3: and I'm joined again by Kevin McDonald. Kevin is a

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Speaker 3: retired officer from the Irish Defense Forces with some special

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Speaker 3: forces and peacekeeping experience.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the show, Kevin, Thanks, thanks very much for

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Speaker 4: having me. And just as a sort of disclaimer at

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Speaker 4: the very start, any views er opinions that I expressed,

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Speaker 4: the opinions of a retired senior officer from the Irish

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Speaker 4: Defense Forces can't be construed it has been in any

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Speaker 4: way the views of the Irish Defense Forces, not indeed

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Speaker 4: that of the United Nations. So I just wanted to

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Speaker 4: put that was there before we get into it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not a UN or an Irish Defense Forces spokesperson,

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Speaker 3: not that we've had many of those suppose on our show, Kevin,

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Speaker 3: we're here today to talk a little bit about the

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Speaker 3: situation in Congo and perhaps more specifically like how the

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Speaker 3: peacekeeping mission there has it evolved and changed and sort

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Speaker 3: of morphed over the years. So maybe just to begin with,

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Speaker 3: I can give an idea that like this city of Goma,

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Speaker 3: which is the capital of North Kivu Province, has recently

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Speaker 3: been captured by M twenty three rebels, would explain who

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Speaker 3: they are people who aren't familiar in a minute. It's

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Speaker 3: a city of about a million people. I believe they're

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Speaker 3: saying around three thousand people have been killed in this operation,

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Speaker 3: which is I mean, it's a massive.

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Speaker 4: Death toll in a short space of time.

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Speaker 3: Very short space of time. Yeah, And some of the

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Speaker 3: other stuff I've heard, like at one point there's a

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Speaker 3: prison within the city which there was a jail break,

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Speaker 3: and they think a hundred of the women who were

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Speaker 3: incarcerated there were sexually assaulted and in some cases burned alive.

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Speaker 3: After the jail break happened, thousands of Congolese military and

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Speaker 3: police have surrendered. A contingent of I believe Romanian private

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Speaker 3: military contractors were captured.

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Speaker 4: Yes, captured, surrendered either where they went into Rwanda. I

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Speaker 4: think about three hundred of them, which is a significant

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Speaker 4: amount of mercenaries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, especially when we're talking about Romania, which is

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Speaker 3: not a vast country.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Understandably, a lot of things are happening in the US,

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Speaker 3: so people may have missed it, and like I think

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Speaker 3: people in the US, just due to the nature of

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Speaker 3: news being quite naval gazing here, may not be as

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Speaker 3: familiar with the conflict in Congo. Like if they know

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Speaker 3: about it, it's from Warren zvon Songs or maybe from

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Speaker 3: maybe from a couple.

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Speaker 4: Of films, Layer's Gone and Money.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the other one? Roland, the Thompson Ganna. That's

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Speaker 3: the Law and the Headless Thompson. That's it. That's the one. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk then about the various United Nations peacekeeping

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Speaker 3: missions in Congo. They've been there since the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 3: is it on and off?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So the first mission in the Congo was oak

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Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty and a lot of people would say

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Speaker 4: that that was the first UN mission, but as I

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Speaker 4: think we discussed the last time, the first yu Went

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Speaker 4: mission was full scale war in nineteen fifty in Korea,

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Speaker 4: and that mission is still in existence the UNC, the

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Speaker 4: United Nations Command, but I suppose speaking about the Congo specifically.

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Speaker 4: So in nineteen sixty there was seventeen newly independent states,

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Speaker 4: of which fourteen were from Africa. I agreed to a

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Speaker 4: call from the UN to establish this mission in the Congo,

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Speaker 4: and Ireland answered the call as well, so we deployed.

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Speaker 4: It was the first time that we deployed with the UN,

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Speaker 4: and we had a battalion there from nineteen sixty to

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Speaker 4: I think nineteen sixty whenever the initial deployment ended, and

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Speaker 4: it was it was a fairly tough, intense introduction to peace.

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Speaker 4: In the early in nineteen sixty there was an engagement

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Speaker 4: between an Irish platoon and a large group of Bluba

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Speaker 4: tribesmen and there was nine Irish soldiers killed and twenty

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Speaker 4: six Blubas killed. And that was the first time that

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Speaker 4: Ireland kind of had to deal with that kind of

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Speaker 4: death overseas, so it was pretty traumatic. And then in

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty one, you've probably seen the film The Siege

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Speaker 4: of Jariteville, but it recounts the true story of an

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Speaker 4: Irish company under Kamada pack Quendlin. His company was one

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty eight roughly strong, and they were attacked

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Speaker 4: while they were at mass on a Sunday morning by

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Speaker 4: a group of between three and four thousand Catanganese well

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Speaker 4: armed soldiers backed up by French and Belgian and South

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Speaker 4: African mercenaries. They also had an attack helicopter and they

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Speaker 4: had an attack chest.

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Speaker 3: I think he had some of the old Rhodesians in

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Speaker 3: there as well at that time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, unfortunately, anything for a fight,

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Speaker 4: but the Irish held out for I think over a week,

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Speaker 4: and they didn't give up when they ran out of water,

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Speaker 4: they didn't give up when they ran out of food.

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Speaker 4: It was when they had no bullets left they negotiated

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Speaker 4: a surrender thanks to the skill of the officers and

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Speaker 4: NCOs and men. Not one fatality on the other side.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, when they came home because they had surrendered, they

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Speaker 4: were treated like parias for years. It was seemed like

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Speaker 4: a state on the nation. Now if God forbid, they

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Speaker 4: had fifty percent casualties that have been treated like heroes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And it's only in recent years that they're

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Speaker 4: getting the recognition that they should have got back in

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty one.

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Speaker 3: That's really interesting. I know they've been treated that way.

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Speaker 3: It's quite sad to hear.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a strange one. And a lot of

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Speaker 4: the people that we will say shunning these officers and

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Speaker 4: NCOs and men. It's having to serve to overseas. And

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Speaker 4: like if the UN they tried once to resupply them

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Speaker 4: with ammunition from the year, but it wasn't successful. So

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Speaker 4: if the UN had full supported that company, they would

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Speaker 4: have held out even longer. But I suppose that's that's

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Speaker 4: the way things things go. So that's the first mission

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Speaker 4: to the Congo, And I could be corrected. I think

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Speaker 4: sixty four sixty five it might have sort of started

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Speaker 4: to draw down. Then in nineteen ninety nine, after it

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Speaker 4: was the first the second war, the UN established monarch

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Speaker 4: monu See and that lasted from nineteen n ninety nine

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Speaker 4: until twenty ten when it was renamed and rechanged into MONUSCO.

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Speaker 4: And the difference between the two is that MINUSCO is

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Speaker 4: what we call an integrated mission. And the three pillars

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Speaker 4: of an integrated mission are the restoration of the rule

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Speaker 4: of law, the protection of civilians, and the provision for

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Speaker 4: long term recovery and democratic governance. So it's combining we'll say,

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Speaker 4: the force of a military presence, but also there's special

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Speaker 4: advises on justice and police seeing on governance, all that

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Speaker 4: sort of stuff which you wouldn't have an emission like UNIFIL,

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Speaker 4: which we discussed the last time. Yeah, yeah, which is

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Speaker 4: the earlier form of peacekeeping. So the NUSCO was supposed

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Speaker 4: to have left the country in twenty twenty four, but

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Speaker 4: they were given a i think a one year extension. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And unfortunately with the twenty three rebel advance, the mission

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Speaker 4: is relocating most of its staff evacuating others. The difference

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Speaker 4: between the two terms is very specific. You relocate within

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Speaker 4: the country and you evacuate out of the country. And

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Speaker 4: I also note that some of the Hybrid African Union

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Speaker 4: peacekeeping operations there was I think thirteen South Africans killed

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Speaker 4: and in the initial stages of the of the onslaught

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Speaker 4: towards towards going. So that that's kind of where we

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Speaker 4: are with the With the I think at the at

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Speaker 4: its height within twenty one twenty two, there was probably

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Speaker 4: a strength of twenty thousand. But if you think the

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Speaker 4: DRC is the second largest country in Africa. It's vast, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and the eleventh largest country in the world. Just the

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Speaker 4: size of just phenomenal. So you can imagine what the

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Speaker 4: Congo and is entire no more than Sudan, but what

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Speaker 4: the Congo and its entirety was back in the day. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: absolutely huge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's vast. It it encompasses different climates, own different

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Speaker 3: ethnic groups as we're seeing right.

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Speaker 4: Two hundred main ethnic groups.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a fascinating place. It's a place

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Speaker 3: I've wanted to go for a long time. I spent

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Speaker 3: some time on the Congo Rwanda border a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: I'm not so far from going er actually like riding

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Speaker 3: riding my bike around. And it's a very interesting place

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Speaker 3: in terms of what Rwanda is, a very interesting place

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Speaker 3: in terms of its relation to its neighbors. I think

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Speaker 3: people will probably struggle to conceptualize. I actually saw somebody

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Speaker 3: had posted on Twitter, somebody who talks about Syria mostly

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Speaker 3: like how on Earth is Rwanda invading Congo? And they

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Speaker 3: had like a picture, you know, and the land mass

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Speaker 3: of Rwanda. Randa is one of the smaller countries in Africa,

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Speaker 3: and Congo is obviously a vast country. Are you come

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Speaker 3: toward explaining a little bit of like the Rwandan involvements.

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Speaker 4: It's complicated, and it goes back to the cities the

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Speaker 4: genocide back in ninety four ninety four, I think, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and the Two Kivus, North and South Kiva, which is

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Speaker 4: on the border with Rwanda, there's a large amount of

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Speaker 4: ethnic Tutsis, Congolese Tutsis. Yeah. There, I think what Rwanda

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Speaker 4: has always projected force into the Two Kivus and Katanga

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Speaker 4: because like literally that that's that's where the money is.

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Speaker 4: Of course Rwanda would say they don't, but they are

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Speaker 4: actively supporting and emptry industry I don't have. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: most of the twenty three certainly the leadership would be

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Speaker 4: ethnic Congolese Putsis. Yeah. So ostensibly I think the raison

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Speaker 4: deathstra for romanda involvement was to protect the ethnic Tutsis

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Speaker 4: from Hutus that had escaped from the from the genocide.

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Speaker 4: So it's complicated, but if you kind of part those

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Speaker 4: complications and think of the money trail, it kind of

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Speaker 4: leads to the Two Kivus because seventy percent of the

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Speaker 4: world's cobalt, I think, is kind of located between the

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Speaker 4: Two Kivus. And then you have gold, diamonds, all the

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Speaker 4: other sort of rich minerals.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, incredible wealth in Congo.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, but I was reading that the estimated deposits

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Speaker 4: in eastern Congo it's something like twenty three trillion, Like

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Speaker 4: it's it's off the wall stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So it's no wonder it's become the battleground that it

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Speaker 4: has essentially since nineteen sixty because in nineteen sixty, after

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Speaker 4: getting independence, the Kivu and Katanga wanted to secede back

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Speaker 4: by belt and that's kind of what kicked off a

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Speaker 4: lot of the conflict in nineteen sixty, and the reverberations

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Speaker 4: from that are still are still kind of being felt

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Speaker 4: and been exploited because everyone wants to get a piece

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Speaker 4: of the action, like all the surrounding countries. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I see. I think it was yesterday that the they're

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Speaker 4: planning a meeting. I think it's this week or this

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Speaker 4: weekend to try and resolve the conflict. And this time

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Speaker 4: they're going to try and include enter twenty three in

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Speaker 4: the in the meeting rather than ex Google. I don't

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Speaker 4: think that the choice. I mean they're heading down to

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Speaker 4: book of use.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean at twenty three have said that they're

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Speaker 3: going for sort of the whole country. Now that they're

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Speaker 3: not you know, it's not as not a regional or

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Speaker 3: like you know, ethnic movement so much as a and

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Speaker 3: they will M twenty three would say that they're not

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Speaker 3: like per se ethnic separatists, right, Like I think they

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Speaker 3: would claim that they're like a liberation of Congo force.

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Speaker 3: And then you've Brundy supporting the Congolese government. You know

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Speaker 3: that there's all kinds as as you say, like regional

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Speaker 3: and international actors because of the wealth in Congo and

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Speaker 3: like let's can't go emerge from the DC emerged from

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Speaker 3: its colonial past, right, it's always been destabilized by these actors,

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Speaker 3: both regional and international, who wanted a piece of that

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Speaker 3: mineral wealth. And then they've created and sustained these differences

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Speaker 3: which have become I think there's some evidence to suggest

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Speaker 3: that like certainly they're like the ethnic differences have become

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Speaker 3: more pronounced and more like intransigent I suppose, or like,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's become more difficult for those ethnic groups

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Speaker 3: to coexist over time due to decades of conflict, right

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Speaker 3: and killing, and it's a very difficult situation and it

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Speaker 3: leaves people like the civilians living in Goma today in

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Speaker 3: a terrible situation where I think this is the fifth

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Speaker 3: time that people have attacked Goma, Like it's certainly I

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Speaker 3: think the last time was about twenty twelve, was it

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Speaker 3: when the last time M twenty three took Goma.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's when the which we've probably just

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Speaker 4: got slater to the Force and Invention Brigade. Yeah, Goma

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Speaker 4: in twenty thirteen in a relatively har space of time. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: compared to how long we took to more, they regained

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Speaker 4: it very quickly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think we break for adverts now. I'd

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Speaker 3: like to come back and discuss the Force Intovention Brigade

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Speaker 3: because I think it's something that people ought to understand

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Speaker 3: when we talk about peacekeeping. And we're back, okay, So yeah,

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Speaker 3: you mentioned the Force Intervention Brigade, which is something a

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Speaker 3: bit unique within peacekeeping, and there's a lot of like

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Speaker 3: when people talk about peacekeeping, they'll be like, oh, why

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Speaker 3: aren't they fighting? Why aren't they like going and stopping

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Speaker 3: the things? And I understand why people ask that. So

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Speaker 3: can you explain a little bit about what the FIB

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Speaker 3: was and what it did?

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Speaker 4: The concept of the Force Intervention Brigade was I think

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Speaker 4: to my knowledge it's the first yew Woe Me mission

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Speaker 4: that developed that concept. And they actually changed the mandate

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Speaker 4: to include an offense of capability for U and troops

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Speaker 4: as opposed to defensive or separation of war in factions.

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Speaker 4: This was full on warfighter and what they had figured

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Speaker 4: out because the DRC is so big that the footprint,

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Speaker 4: even with twenty thousand troops, the footprint on the ground

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Speaker 4: was not sufficient to would say, as I said, one

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Speaker 4: of the three pillars of an integratedmissions protection of civilians.

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Speaker 4: And they were finding that very difficult. So they decided

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Speaker 4: to use a concept of protection by projection rather than

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Speaker 4: protection by presence. So not alone did they have the

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Speaker 4: Forceancry Brigade, they had the joint protection teams and also

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Speaker 4: an idea of a rapidly deployable battalion. So the idea

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Speaker 4: was that the Port and Diveention Brigade would say, do

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Speaker 4: the heavy lifting and then when hotspots that flare up,

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Speaker 4: they could choose either the rapidly deployed the battalions or

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Speaker 4: the joint protection teams. So the idea is that rather

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Speaker 4: than having static positions trying to protect people. They would

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Speaker 4: go where the action was. That was the idea. And

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Speaker 4: in fairness, the FIB had artillery, martors, snipers, attack helicopters,

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Speaker 4: U have these special forces. They retook Gum and I

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Speaker 4: don't know the exact timeframe, but I think it was

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Speaker 4: less than a month. One of the problems and I

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Speaker 4: think we touched on at the last time we spoke,

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Speaker 4: and I think this is a specific problem to the

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Speaker 4: how the FIB didn't really keep going the way it

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Speaker 4: should have is that two of the main TCCs were

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Speaker 4: Tanzania and South Africa, and they would have had slightly

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Speaker 4: different agendas in terms of who they should and they

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Speaker 4: shouldn't attack based on the government's position sorrue true country

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Speaker 4: in the countries. Excuse me, I should have said that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, sea of acronyms here. I've tried to avoid

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Speaker 3: all the these faction acronyms, but yeah, yeah, explain that

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Speaker 3: a bit, because when people think of the UN or

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Speaker 3: in peacekeepers or troop contributing countries, the only time it

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Speaker 3: comes on the news in sort of the global north

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Speaker 3: is when people from say Northern Europe or North America

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Speaker 3: are part of these UN peacekeeping missions. So they think

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Speaker 3: of people British troops, American and Canadian what have you,

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Speaker 3: in their blue helmets. Right that the vast bulk of

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Speaker 3: TCC's don't come from from Northern Europe, right, they're in Africa.

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Speaker 3: The majority of TCC's or other African countries. I think

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Speaker 3: I'm right saying it's a majority.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like like here here in in suth Sudan, most

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Speaker 4: of the big battalions are Wanda, Nepal, Mongolia, China generally speaking,

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Speaker 4: in my experience in the Central African Republic and here

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Speaker 4: a lot of the battalions come from Africa, which which

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Speaker 4: is fair enough. I mean it's it's their continent. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and they should have they should of a stake in

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Speaker 4: trying to faster piece and develop peace and help countries

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Speaker 4: in less or more dire situations than they themselves perhaps are.

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Speaker 4: So it's I understand your point about about different countries

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Speaker 4: being aware of what the UN does based on I take,

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Speaker 4: for instance, everyone in Ireland knows about the UN, and

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Speaker 4: they know about the Irish and Lebanon, and in Syria

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Speaker 4: and in Africa. I'm sure in the United Kingdom, because

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Speaker 4: you've got a very small UN footprint. Yeah, Cyprus been one,

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Speaker 4: and there's a few of you guys here, generally people

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Speaker 4: in the UK, I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten

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Speaker 4: me on this. Wouldn't have the exact same intimate knowledge

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Speaker 4: or even interest in the UN because basically they don't

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Speaker 4: have a big footprint, deployable footprint.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's the same with the United States.

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Speaker 3: I think it's not something that people think about for

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Speaker 3: the most part, and so like that's this question of

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Speaker 3: like why doesn't the UN. Certainly I think when people

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Speaker 3: saw what happened recently in Lebanon, they were like, why

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Speaker 3: are these peacekeepers? You know where you had these peacekeepers

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Speaker 3: And we spoke about this in our last episode, right

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Speaker 3: being shelled being shot at. You know, the people were

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Speaker 3: asking why they weren't out there fighting and there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of reasons for that, one being that's not

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Speaker 3: what they're there to do. But yeah, when we had

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Speaker 3: this Force Intervention Brigade in Congo, they did some good things, right,

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Speaker 3: they were able to retake Goma, and for the people

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Speaker 3: who lived in Gomer, I'm sure that was very important,

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Speaker 3: like that meaningfully improved their lives. But like it also

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Speaker 3: comes with these complications that you've addressed, right, Like each

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Speaker 3: of those those troop contributing countries, you need everyone to

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Speaker 3: be committed to like the same mission, I suppose, and

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Speaker 3: like if your government is giving your armed forces one

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Speaker 3: mission that differs slightly from that which the whoever's in

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Speaker 3: commanded the force into venture brigade hats, then we get friction, right,

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Speaker 3: or it's not as efficient as it could be.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm sure I mentioned just when we

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Speaker 4: last spoke. It's one thing developing a robust mandate, But

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Speaker 4: if the if the TCCs don't want to have the skills,

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Speaker 4: the experience, the training, the equipment, or the will to

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Speaker 4: enforce the robust nature of that mandate, well then the

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Speaker 4: mandate isn't really worth anything, you know. So it's it's

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Speaker 4: kind of like, Yes, the FIB was extremely effected for

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Speaker 4: a while until it wasn't. Now whether that was a

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Speaker 4: lack of will on the TCCs or on New York

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Speaker 4: or mission leadership, I have no idea, but it was

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Speaker 4: a great idea and it worked and then it didn't work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Plus the fact that the DOC wanted the mission to

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Speaker 4: downsize and eventually leave that added to the should should

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Speaker 4: we really invest in something when we're going to pull

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Speaker 4: out because the country doesn't want to hear it anymore,

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Speaker 4: which is again as a fair point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, No one wants foreign troops in their country, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, walking around, especially you know, engaging their owns.

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Speaker 3: It's but I mean, it's interesting. I was watching a

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Speaker 3: speaks the current president of the DRC, Felix TOSHISAKEDI. I've

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00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 3: tried my best to pronounce it correctly. It's not that disrespect.

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Speaker 3: He was saying that the international community is bordering on

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Speaker 3: complicit in M twenty three's advance because of the failure

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Speaker 3: to do anything about it, in a speech he gave

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Speaker 3: this week. And it was interesting because it had previously been,

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Speaker 3: like you said, for under very understandable reasons, especially in

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Speaker 3: the DRC, which has this long and horrible history of colonialism,

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Speaker 3: like the terrible things done in the Belgian Congo. We've

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Speaker 3: covered those a lot on Bastardsen now the show that

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Speaker 3: we do, people can listen to that if they want to.

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Speaker 3: But now he's asking for more help, which is also

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Speaker 3: understandable because you know, his military is one hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty five thousand or so, like and a large number

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Speaker 3: of that it's not very combat effective forces maybe, and

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Speaker 3: they've just been overrun in Gourma, in a big city,

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Speaker 3: a city of a million people. So, like, where do

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Speaker 3: you think we go from here? What's like, We're at

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Speaker 3: a very unique time in world history in which the

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00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 3: United States is it's doing some things with this foreign policy.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't I won't really mince words about

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Speaker 3: anything's terrible. But if we talk about like USAID, right

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Speaker 3: I was speaking to people on the Thai Burmese border

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Speaker 3: last week who were telling me that USAID has turned

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Speaker 3: off life support machines as part of its draw down

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Speaker 3: and that people obviously directly died as a result of

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Speaker 3: that there. So the US is not necessarily averse to

387
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Speaker 3: having terrible consequences to its whatever it's trying to do

388
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Speaker 3: right now, which I don't really have a good word for.

389
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Speaker 3: So where do we go from here? With the US

390
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Speaker 3: becoming more isolationists.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's discuss for a few minutes the alternatives to

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Speaker 4: UN peace keep ye, And there's a lot of them

393
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Speaker 4: here in Africa. So you have the South African Development Community,

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Speaker 4: the East African community, there was an African Union stroke

395
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Speaker 4: UN hybrid mission and therefore UNIMIT which is closing. There

396
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Speaker 4: was an AU mission in Somalia. There is the Lake

397
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Speaker 4: Chad base in Multinational Task Force, there's the Group of

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Speaker 4: Five for the Sahel. Then you had EU four which

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Speaker 4: was an EU force in Chad and in Mali and

400
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Speaker 4: subsequently became miner cat in Chad and Minusna and Mali.

401
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Speaker 4: Then you have the EUTM mission in Mali which I

402
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Speaker 4: was part of at one stage, and another one in Socenaria.

403
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Speaker 4: And of course we have our mercenaries, you know, and

404
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Speaker 4: when it emerged that there was over three hundred of

405
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Speaker 4: them allowed into Rwanda, I was reading the report that

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Speaker 4: they were getting something like three and a half thousand

407
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Speaker 4: dollars a month, whereas the DRC soldiers were getting maybe

408
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Speaker 4: three hundred dollars a month. Yeah, you know, and these

409
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Speaker 4: guys were brought in to protect the mines because again

410
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Speaker 4: they goes back to money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, pactal resources, not people. That's a different thing.

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Speaker 3: So what if those like those African led peacekeeping missions

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Speaker 3: look like like you talked about these various like international

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Speaker 3: and regional groups.

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Speaker 4: I think it's it's certainly worth a try because dun

416
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Speaker 4: hasn't the ability, not indeed the money, I presume to

417
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Speaker 4: keep doing these large, big missions. At one stage, the

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00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 4: three largest missions were MENUSCO, which were discussing MINUSCA and

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Speaker 4: the Central African Republic, and MINUSMA, which was in Mali.

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Speaker 4: Mali's gone. DRC is on the drawdown. Central African Republic

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Speaker 4: is still there, but I've noticed I spent four years there,

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Speaker 4: and obviously I have a keen interest in the place,

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Speaker 4: but there has been a big increase in anti anti

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Speaker 4: French with a Francophone country. Yeah, Antry French and linked

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Speaker 4: with a kind of an anti UN sentiment. No, the

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00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 4: special advisor to the President is from Russia. Vaguer. You

427
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 4: had a big part to play when I was there.

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00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 4: The were key players. Yeah. Most likely they're interlinked.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and they've done some things which are

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Speaker 3: horrific in terms. We've covered that as well with the

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Speaker 3: print Derma on the show. I did want to talk

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Speaker 3: about this because the US is talking about withdrawing its

433
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: sort of what we call like soft power assets right

434
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 3: around the world, and I saw, like I forget who

435
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: it was saying, like, oh, let the chips fall where

436
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: they may. It's very obvious where the chips will fall

437
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: in this part of the world. Right, Like when I

438
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: was in Rwanda, every fancy road in Rwanda they call

439
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 3: them Chinese roads because they go from the mind to

440
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: the airport.

441
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 4: Ye belt embraces Yep.

442
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 3: It's as naked a resource extraction project as you'll see

443
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 3: right now. China also does a soft power thing. They'll

444
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: build hospitals and these. You know, I forget where the

445
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 3: quote comes from, but like every time the US comes,

446
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 3: we get a lecture, and every time China comes, we

447
00:24:54,920 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 3: get a hospital. This will reorient the way these countries,

448
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: specifically in Africa, associate with the world. Right with the

449
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 3: US drawdown and the United Nations not capable or willing

450
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 3: of sort of doing these massive peacekeeping missions. And I

451
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 3: think for very understandable reasons groups out the EU. You know,

452
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 3: it's best not to have large deployment to European en

453
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 3: forces in Africa for reasons that are probably quite obvious.

454
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 3: So like, yeah, we were likely to see I mean,

455
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: hasn't Wagner rebranded itself as the Africa Core Now.

456
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not sure who's running at no, but I'm

457
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: sure the strings are being more closely pulled by by

458
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 4: Putin as opposed to having very loose control when precaution

459
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 4: was there. Yeah, yeah, it was given him like a

460
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 4: standoff capability. Was right, This is just a PMC, nothing

461
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 4: to do with me. Yeah, But I would imagine after

462
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 4: his drive to Moscow and a subsequent to my I'm

463
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 4: sure that whoever is running the Africa core is much

464
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: more tightly controlled by the criminal I would. I would imagine.

465
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a britishis India Company kind of model,

466
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: like a sort of proxy colonialism, but very tight. Like

467
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: you say, it's just almost just like a different badge

468
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: on the same thing there. I think this is one

469
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: of the things that won't get talked about in the

470
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: next four years because the US media will talk about

471
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: the US a lot. Again, I mean they always do.

472
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: But I think people should be concerned about this, about

473
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: the future for like multinational peacekeeping in Africa, and more importantly,

474
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 3: I guess the future for Interlink without the future for

475
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 3: human rights in Africa. What do you see as like

476
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: meaningful ways that people can advocate for a future for

477
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 3: Africa which is not just another set of countries extracting

478
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 3: resources and leaving very little for the people there, Which

479
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: is something that has happened. You know, I'm British best,

480
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,239
Speaker 3: and this has happened by British people for a very

481
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 3: long time and other European people for a very long time.

482
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: But like that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to

483
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: stop it happening in the future.

484
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 4: That's a difficult one to answer, because ideally African problems should,

485
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 4: in my opinion, be solved by African nations. Yeah, and

486
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 4: that's the reason that the African Union and all these

487
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 4: other ones that I mentioned I think are an attempt

488
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 4: to do that. Yeah. And certainly Europe and the US

489
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 4: shouldn't be dictating how Africans government themselves. They should be

490
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 4: assisting in good governance, good policing, good judiciary. But it

491
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 4: kind of goes back to money again, because there's so

492
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 4: much of a vested interest. I heard a figure that

493
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 4: twenty three were getting eight hundred thousand dollars a month

494
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 4: from some of the mines in the Kivus. Yeah, I

495
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 4: can believe we'll get that kind of money floating around

496
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 4: a lot of people maybe don't want to sort things out. Yeah,

497
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 4: and it may suit to leave the mayhem there and

498
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 4: use all these artisanal miners who are getting paid a

499
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 4: couple of cents a day and Wonder has just got

500
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 4: a big contract with the EU in terms of diamonds.

501
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that is the thing, right, we can

502
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: tell where this stuff comes from. There is a means

503
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: to try and limit the amount of these resources which

504
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 3: you can leave conflict zones in a way which benefits

505
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 3: beligerent parties. It's where the markets for those resources are

506
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 3: willing to do it, right.

507
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And everyone has mistaken the point, whether it's the

508
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 4: overseer of the mind, whether it's the company that owns

509
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 4: the mind, whether it's the people that move the product

510
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 4: from Kivu into someone neighboring country, and then ultimately the

511
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 4: people that buy it commercially in Western Europe or around

512
00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 4: the rest of the world.

513
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's not you know, people think

514
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: of diamonds a lot, and I think people that there's

515
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: been a kind of movement to purchase diamonds which you're

516
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: ethically sourced, or to just not use diamonds, to sort

517
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: of move away from them as like a store of value.

518
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: But it's also the parts in your mobile phone, isn't it.

519
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: It's not you know, it's not just like fancy engagement rings.

520
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: Because this is a chain you wanted to be over

521
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 4: the price for more ethical mining methods most people probably own.

522
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing, right, and especially when it's out

523
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: of sight, out of mind for most people, even compared

524
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: to you know, we obviously genocide Palestinian people or the

525
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: you know, when we think about these other atrostees, right,

526
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: like those have not remained out of sight out of

527
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: mind because they're visible in people's social media, because you know,

528
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: people in Palestine have phones and they can film, and

529
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: like that's I think meaningfully changed the way. Like I

530
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 3: wouldn't have thought American people would care about Palestinian people.

531
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 3: I moved here in two thousand and eight, and you

532
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: wouldn't have found much interest in Palestine.

533
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 4: You wouldn't have expected them to promote that cleansing of

534
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 4: Guz Yeah, I.

535
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: Know you well, you wouldn't have expected that either. But

536
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 3: the movement like to support Palestinian people from the grassroots

537
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: and then also the other government doing the exact opposite.

538
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: You know, it's come from the bottom up. It hasn't

539
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 3: come from like government advocacy. But we don't see that

540
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: as much with certainly this part of Africa, right, Like

541
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 3: and it's exposed. It's to contro it's coins of like

542
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: people in Congo maybe aren't able to access those global

543
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: networks of like social media and maybe to share their stories,

544
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 3: you know. And I think it's also a consequence of

545
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: us in the media not reporting at all, you know,

546
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: Like I've for years tried to sell stories about Africa

547
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: to American publications and at best they'll want a story

548
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 3: about like the people who are starting like social enterprise,

549
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 3: European North American people starting like social enterprises or like

550
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: sort of beneficial companies. And I understand it's have a role,

551
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: but like, you're not going to persuade me that there

552
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: is a single African person of interest to you, and

553
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: that like it's someone who came from North America, that

554
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: it's the only relevant story to tell in Africa. And

555
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 3: like I've had this falling out with so many editors

556
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 3: over the years that like, no, I don't want to

557
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: tell that story. I want to tell a story about

558
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: people from Congo and Congo, about people from Rwanda and Rwanda.

559
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 4: I live in the town towards the west coast of Ireland,

560
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 4: and there's a guy from there. What I'll do is

561
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 4: I'll send you a link. Yeah. Yeah, but he's passionate

562
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: about getting free education in Africa between online courses and

563
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 4: online libraries. Obviously, the more education you get, the better

564
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: chance you have of having a better life. So yeah,

565
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: I think of some sulf and I'll send an auntie

566
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 4: and then you can figure out whether it'll be an

567
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 4: interesting topic or whatever. But I just literally as we were,

568
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 4: I was thinking of how one guy is trying to

569
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 4: change conditions for younger people in Africa and trying to

570
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 4: give it to them for free.

571
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: That's it. Yeah, that's the key is like people doing it.

572
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: One of the things that people did which I thought

573
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: was really great as an example as a model, is

574
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: from October about October the tenth of twenty twenty three.

575
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: I suppose people weren't going to school or university in Gaza,

576
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 3: and very quickly there weren't any universities in Gaza because

577
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 3: they all got bombed. Right, the colleagues of mine in

578
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 3: academic departments started putting on seminars and lectures that Palestinian people,

579
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 3: be they displaced or still in Gaza, but with access

580
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: to internet, you know, it's still displaced, but internally displaced

581
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 3: could attend and continue with their educations. And I thought

582
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: that was a really great, like solidarity based way to

583
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: facilitate access to something that people have had taken away

584
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: from them through no fault they were by state aggression.

585
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

586
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, there's a model for that. I mean, colonial

587
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 3: has done many terrible things, but it's given us a

588
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: common language with a lot of our African friends. You know,

589
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 3: you speak French and English, you can do quite well.

590
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: So like, yeah, there are things available, and I wish

591
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: people would I don't think people should stop caring about Palestine,

592
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: of course I don't, but I do wish they would

593
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: care more about people in Africa too, because like, they

594
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: don't deserve this any more than anyone else.

595
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 4: I was born in nineteen sixty when the first mission

596
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,719
Speaker 4: went to the Congo. Yeah, and it's been going on,

597
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 4: like I'm sixty four, it's been around sixty four years. Yeah,

598
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 4: so no more than the problem with the Palestinians. I

599
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 4: think some people, unless you have a specific interest in

600
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 4: it or feel passionate about it, a lot of people

601
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 4: just I think true note and to go to the

602
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 4: next pronouncement from the White House, you know, clickbit. Yeah,

603
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 4: So I think it's a sad fact, but it's the

604
00:33:59,040 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 4: factor I think.

605
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a shame. And like, you know, if

606
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 3: there's one thing I'd like to do with my career,

607
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: I'd like to spend more time in that part of

608
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: the world and do more reporting. And I think we

609
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: could do a lot with as a media with just

610
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: explaining how life is for everyday people, because people think

611
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 3: about Congo in terms of yeah, the M twenty three

612
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: in the conglese government and the who too, militias and

613
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: this and that, but the vast majority of people are

614
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 3: just trying to get on with their day. You know,

615
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 3: they want a better future for their children. Yeah, and

616
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: you know the fact that your mobile phone it's cheap,

617
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: it's maybe making their children's future worse. And that's something

618
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: that we need to reckon with.

619
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 4: And E cares.

620
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean this is the thing people

621
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: and talk about electric cars. It's so as weird. It's

622
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: all that stuff come and then even here in America

623
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 3: right whether the US trying to mind lithium on reservations

624
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: where you know, the land there's little land it's left

625
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: indigenous people to have sovereignty on. It's where it's now

626
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 3: trying to do this very invasive form of mining. Kevin,

627
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 3: You've written a book, so would you like to as

628
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 3: we wind down here, do you want to explain a

629
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: little bit about about your books so that people are

630
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 3: interested in your life and your time as a peacekeeper

631
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 3: and an archaeologist.

632
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 4: Okay, So what started off as a lockdown project when

633
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 4: COVID hit back in the day, I decided I would

634
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 4: write an account of my weird of wonderful life for

635
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 4: my just from my family, and don't you start writing

636
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 4: as you're no doubt where you start remembering. And suddenly

637
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: I was at something like a hundred thousand words, and

638
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 4: I thought, right, there might be a book in this.

639
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 4: And I know, obviously I'm opinionating about my own book naturally,

640
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 4: but it's not just a book about some random military

641
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 4: guy waffling on about his military career. I've a separate

642
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 4: career in mountaineering and kind of a nearly separate career

643
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: in archaeology, So it's it's a mixture of soldiering, mountaineering

644
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 4: and archaeology. As someone said it to me, it's a

645
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 4: bit like Chris Bonnington meets Bert Grills meets Indiana Jones,

646
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: which is weird and wonderful way to do so. The

647
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 4: title of the book is a Lifeless Ordinary, which this

648
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 4: was a recruiting slogo in the nineteen nineties for the

649
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 4: for the Irish Defense Forces.

650
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know that.

651
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 4: I think. I think I'll sent you the link. Yeah, yeah,

652
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 4: if not, I'll do it, yeah, immediately. So all your

653
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 4: viewers can order the book. You can only get it

654
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: online at the publishers. It's not on Amazon unfortunately. Yeah.

655
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 3: Well maybe maybe fell the best given the way tech

656
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: people are playing the US economy. Yeah, you can. You

657
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: can get it online. You can get it sent to

658
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: the United States if you interest date I did. Thank

659
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 3: you so much for your time, Kevin. You're insights today.

660
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: I know we really appreciate it. Is there anywhere else

661
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 3: if people want to follow you online? Aside from the book?

662
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: The book is probably the best one. What is probably

663
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: the best way to get in comment? I'm on LinkedIn

664
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: and yeah, the normal stuff. Just google Kevin McDonald and

665
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 3: I should I should come up. I was resisting for

666
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: years and years, and eventually I googled Kevin McDonald and

667
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: I was surprised at the amount of Kevin McDonald's There

668
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: is a famous American actor writing called Kevin McDonald. Yeah,

669
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 3: but I just as a small party shot when when

670
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 3: I was in Mali, I was researching the archaeology of

671
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 3: Mali and the world expert on Melaye archaeology is a professor, naturally,

672
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: Kevin mac donald. So I sent him an am here

673
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 3: and I said, by the way, I'm also an archaeologist,

674
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 3: and my name is Kevin McDonald, and he goes my word,

675
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: I'd be in Bangi or in Bamaco in two weeks time.

676
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: Let's meet up.

677
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 4: So the two Kevin McDonald's, two archaeologists met up in

678
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 4: Bama cup to discuss archaeology.

679
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 3: So that's nice when these things kept again.

680
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 4: Another one of my word and wonderful stories.

681
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, well thanks so much for joining us to you, Kevin,

682
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 3: So it's nice to hear me.

683
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 4: You're more than welcome.

684
00:37:45,800 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 6: Jims, Hello, welcome to It could Happen Here a podcast

685
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 6: about things falling apart and the people.

686
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 7: Trying to put them back together again. I am today's

687
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 7: guest host, Margaret Kiljoy. Today is one of those episodes

688
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 7: about people, well trying to put it back together again,

689
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 7: or I guess really an episode about people trying to

690
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 7: stop them from making things fall apart, because today I'm

691
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 7: going to talk a little bit about the fight against

692
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 7: the Mountain Valley natural Gas pipeline. Last Tuesday, February twenty fifth,

693
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 7: twenty twenty five, the last criminal trials from the campaign

694
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 7: to stop the Mountain Valley pipeline were held in Parisburg, Virginia.

695
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 7: As you might have guessed based on the fact that

696
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 7: you've never heard of Parisburg, Virginia, it's a tiny town

697
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 7: nestled in the Appalachian Mountains. It's also the seat of

698
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 7: Giles County, Virginia, and it the town is home to

699
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 7: almost three thousand people. It's in the southwest of the state,

700
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 7: right up against West Virginia. Culture and geography, of course,

701
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 7: both reject things like state lines. The governments are obsessed

702
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 7: with them. For ten years, the people of Central Appalachia,

703
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 7: on both sides of the imaginary line, fought against this

704
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 7: destructive pipeline. Their campaign tied nonviolent direct action with lawsuits

705
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 7: and public pressure campaigns, and they very nearly won. It

706
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 7: took backdoor dealings at the highest level of power to

707
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 7: force the pipeline's construction, with West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin

708
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 7: holding twenty twenty three's Inflation Reduction Act hostage until President

709
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 7: Biden personally guaranteed that the pipeline would be constructed, overriding

710
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 7: all of the courts, activists, and locals who blocked it

711
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 7: along the way. Essentially, the ostensible Democrat Joe Manchin said, fine,

712
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 7: I'll vote for your climate bill, but only if you

713
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 7: fuck over the state that I represent. The pipeline, owned

714
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 7: by Mountain Valley Pipeline LLC, was supposed to be built

715
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 7: in a year. Thanks to the campaign against it, it

716
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 7: took six and a half years to build. It was

717
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 7: intended to cost the company three billion dollars. It costs

718
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 7: them more than twice that, which is not bad for

719
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 7: a scrappy movement of mountain people, hippies, and punks. It's

720
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 7: not bad for a bunch of grandma's and college kids.

721
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 7: I'll be covering the full campaign in more details soon

722
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 7: on cool people who did cool stuff. This podcast is

723
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 7: instead about the trials. Twelve defendants went before the court

724
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 7: that day, eleven of them facing felonies and serious prison time.

725
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 7: In the end, none of them were sentenced to time

726
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 7: behind bars. I am happy to say a friend of

727
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 7: mine invited me down to cover the trials twelve defendants,

728
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 7: all in the same day, all in the same courtroom,

729
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 7: with the same judge. I said, yes, West Virginia is

730
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 7: a bigger state than its own map would indicate because

731
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 7: there aren't freeways that run through it, so it takes

732
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 7: a very long time to get anywhere. So I packed

733
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 7: up my van and headed down on Monday night. That night,

734
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 7: sleeping in my van, I had a stress dream about

735
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 7: court where I'd forgotten to take off my knife before

736
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 7: going through the metal detectors, and spent a very long

737
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 7: time talking to various cops about who I was and

738
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 7: why I was there, before being stuck outside the courthouse

739
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 7: and a large crowd of protesters surrounded by a large

740
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 7: crowd of cops. In that dream, someone who wasn't on

741
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 7: either side stood up to give a speech, but too

742
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 7: near an open flame in his clothes caught fire. Us

743
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 7: anarchists again, I'm talking about my dream here. Aus Anarchist

744
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 7: rushed to help him while the cops stared on with

745
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 7: blank stairs. We beat out the flames and held his

746
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 7: burned body while the cops stared on with blank stairs.

747
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 7: We screamed for someone to call an ambulance while the

748
00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 7: cops stared on with blank stairs. I like when my

749
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 7: dreams lend themselves to obvious symbolism in this moment where

750
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 7: the apparatus of the state is content to let all

751
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 7: of us burn, whether in the fires of fascism or

752
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 7: the fires of climate change. But I woke up disturbed nonetheless,

753
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 7: with the sun barely over the horizon. I ate a

754
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 7: quick breakfast, and I drove the rest of the way

755
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 7: up to the actual courthouse and the actual trial. Fortunately,

756
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 7: at the actual thing, no one caught fire. I parked

757
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 7: on a nearby street and made my way to the courthouse.

758
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 7: It didn't accidentally bring a pocket knife, which is easy

759
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 7: for me to do since I usually have three on

760
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 7: me because I am a totally normal human. I did, though,

761
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 7: bring an audio recorder, which was equally forbidden in the courtroom.

762
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 7: I went through the metal detector and surrendered my little

763
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 7: bag with the Zoom recorder. Later, press came into the

764
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 7: room and I tried to get my recorder back, but

765
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 7: I was told that's real media. Without a press badge,

766
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 7: I don't look much like someone who works for iHeart.

767
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 7: I settled into a seat and waited for the proceedings.

768
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 7: Eco defendants and ECO defenders both poured into the tiny,

769
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 7: dingy courtroom. The ceiling had holes in it, the drywall

770
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 7: was sagging. Appalachia isn't extracted from region. A place from

771
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 7: which wealth is gathered, not a place where wealth goes.

772
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 7: We were reminded repeatedly that the fire code limited occupancy

773
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 7: of the roomed eighty nine people, and it sure seemed

774
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 7: like they brought in as many cops as they could

775
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 7: to limit our numbers. Many more supporters waited outside. Most

776
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 7: of what I did that day was weight in the courtroom,

777
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 7: because most of the courtroom drama was happening behind closed

778
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 7: doors as the prosecutor, the judge, and the aid or

779
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 7: so defense attorneys all argued and fought over the details

780
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 7: of plea deals. Most of these characters, judge, prosecutor, and

781
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 7: lawyers were quite familiar to the people working with the movement.

782
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 7: This was the last trial of many throughout the ten

783
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 7: year campaign, which has relied heavily on non violent direct

784
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 7: action since twenty eighteen. The prosecutor, in particular, a guy

785
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 7: named Bobby Lilly, was a well known figure. Usually, when

786
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 7: people say things like the prosecutor was a clown. They're

787
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 7: speaking figuratively, but Bobby Lilly, the prosecutor, is a balloon

788
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 7: artist in his free time, and his Facebook is full

789
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 7: of photos of all of his balloon creations. The rumor

790
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 7: is that he clowned his way through law school, all right, Which, look,

791
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 7: if I wasn't predisposed to not like this man because

792
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 7: he was arguing for the imprisonment of people trying to

793
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 7: save all life on earth, I would kind of think

794
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 7: that's cool. But it does mean that there was a

795
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 7: clown prosecution. And some people who were there to support

796
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 7: the defendants wore balloon animal hats to mock Bobby Lily,

797
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 7: though they were forced to leave those hats outside as

798
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 7: no hats of any kind were allowed in the courtroom.

799
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 7: Coming in that morning, we expected most of the defendants

800
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 7: to take non cooperating plea deals they'd already agreed to.

801
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 7: Non Cooperating plea deals are deals in which the defendant

802
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 7: refuses to cooperate with the state's investigation of other protesters. Basically,

803
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 7: this means these are non snitching deals. A few of

804
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 7: the defendants, though we're ready to take their cases to trial,

805
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 7: I've decided to largely not use people's names in this reporting.

806
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 7: Those names are a matter of public record, of course,

807
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 7: but we are entering unprecedented times, and I don't see

808
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 7: any particular advantage in making their names more public than

809
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 7: they already are. But do you know what I do

810
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 7: want to make public the sweet sweet deals offered by

811
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 7: our advertisers. I love making those public. Here they are,

812
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 7: and we're back. The charges against the defendants seem politically motivated.

813
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 7: This isn't to say the defendants might not have walked

814
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 7: onto pipeline work sites and disrupted activity. There certainly a

815
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 7: coordinated campaign to do just that, but the charges against

816
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 7: them were artificially inflated. I was talking to a supporter

817
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 7: during one of the many long interludes in the proceedings

818
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 7: who explained to me that nearly everyone on trial that day,

819
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 7: and a large percentage of all defendants throughout the course

820
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 7: of the campaign, were charged with felony misuse of a

821
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 7: motor vehicle aka joy riding. To be clear, no one

822
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 7: has been accused of hijacking construction equipment and riding it around.

823
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 7: It's just one of the many charges levied at protesters

824
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 7: in order to get their bail denied or inflated to

825
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 7: tie everyone up in legal proceedings for longer, and intimidate

826
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 7: people into pleting guilty to lesser charges. These are similar

827
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 7: to the kidnapping charges that a lot of protesters got

828
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 7: as well, despite that, well, no one was kidnapped during

829
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 7: the course of the campaign, except, of course, by the state.

830
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 7: Another supporter explained to me, inflated arges has been part

831
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 7: of the Mountain Valley Pipeline's legal strategy all along, the

832
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 7: same as protesters look to tie the pipeline company up

833
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 7: in court and delay construction, MVP's strategy seems to have

834
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 7: been to drag out court cases and keep as many

835
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 7: individual force defenders caught up in legal jeopardy as possible.

836
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 7: Of course, they shouldn't actually have the means to change

837
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 7: people's charges. But if the fight against MVP has taught

838
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 7: us anything it's that the state caves to business interests

839
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 7: every time. Most defendants from the course of the campaign

840
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 7: have taken pleas that include suspended sentences so that they

841
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 7: never do jail time as long as they promise to

842
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 7: never try to save the world from fossil fuel infrastructure.

843
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 7: It seems like MVP wants each person who catches charges

844
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 7: to be out of the fight. But fortunately Frontline's work

845
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 7: is only a portion of the work involved in defending

846
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 7: the earth. When someone told me that this was MVP's

847
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 7: strategy to catch everyone up on charges, I wasn't really

848
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 7: skeptical because it made sense, but I still had that

849
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 7: confirmed for me in the courtroom. You see, a few

850
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 7: lawyers or other legal representatives of MVP were present in

851
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 7: the courtroom that day, standing at the back of the room,

852
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 7: seemingly eves dropping on the courtroom.

853
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 5: Chatter.

854
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 7: Word on the street was that part of their goal

855
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 7: was to gather information for the ongoing civil litigation happening

856
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 7: against environmentalists. But eves dropping goes both ways, and one

857
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 7: supporter I talked to overheard them talking to each other

858
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 7: about how they wish they could drag these cases out

859
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 7: even longer. Once court began, defendants went up one by

860
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 7: one before the judge. Most entered pleas of not guilty

861
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 7: with stipulation. This is, in essence, a way to accept

862
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 7: a plea agreement without actually accepting guilt. So each person

863
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 7: went up pleaded not guilty with stipulation, and then was

864
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 7: found guilty by the judge.

865
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: On their lesser charges.

866
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 7: The process took three to six minutes per defendant.

867
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: I tracked it.

868
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 7: The defendants were there for arrests stemming from actions that

869
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 7: happened between October twenty twenty three and March twenty twenty four,

870
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 7: from three different actions, all on nearby Peters Mountain, a

871
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 7: mountain which sits on the horizon of Parrisburg, Virginia, and

872
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,959
Speaker 7: which defies the border between Virginia and West Virginia. Most

873
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 7: of the action from the campaign happened on either Peters

874
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 7: Mountain or another mountain in another county, Poor Mountain. One

875
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 7: action in October twenty twenty three, like I said, court

876
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 7: has been dragged out for a very long time, was

877
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 7: an action in which one person locked themselves to an

878
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 7: excavator while others were there in support. The supporters of

879
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 7: the action were facing felonies too. Some of them a

880
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 7: while back were re arrested at their own arraignments, given

881
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 7: additional charges, and put into jail for days. It's not

882
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 7: hard to imagine why the defendants were nervous in the

883
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 7: courtroom that day, even though most of them had already

884
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 7: sorted out their plea agreements ahead of time. The state

885
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 7: is fickle, condescending, and unpredictable. One of the defendants that

886
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 7: I talked to told me about their own case. The

887
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 7: evidence supporting the charges against pretty much everyone was weak,

888
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 7: but the evidence supporting the charges against this particular person

889
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,959
Speaker 7: were particularly weak. The state kept offering this person plea

890
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 7: deals before anyone else. Will you be offering the same

891
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 7: deal to my co defendants, the defendant kept asking. The

892
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 7: state kept saying no, so the defendant kept refusing the deal.

893
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 7: That defendant came to court fully expecting to stand trial

894
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 7: rather than take a better deal than what their co

895
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 7: defendants were getting. The big story of the day actually

896
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 7: revolves around that particular point. At least one of the

897
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 7: defendants who came prepared to stand trial last Tuesday wound

898
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 7: up being offered much more generous plea agreements at the

899
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 7: last minute because the state knew its case against them

900
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 7: was flimsy. Those who accept at non cooperating plea deals

901
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 7: were hit with suspended sentences, community service, and restitution. The

902
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 7: details differed from case to case, but in general, people

903
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 7: were given a year in prison hanging over their heads

904
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 7: if they're caught breaking the law in the next year,

905
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 7: and have to spend between fifty and one hundred hours

906
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 7: doing manual labor for Giles County, Virginia. I've been told

907
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 7: this can range from something benign like painting murals to

908
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 7: something intentionally humiliating, like cleaning the toilets.

909
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 3: At the police station.

910
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 7: The single biggest issue of contention was restitution. The defendants

911
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 7: are being ordered to pay for the overtime costs associated

912
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 7: with arresting them. One defendant, who was I believe, arrested

913
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 7: at a mom's against the pipeline's action, a woman who

914
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 7: simply wants her children to grow up in a world

915
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 7: with a habitable ecosystem, was in court last Tuesday to

916
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 7: contest the restitution payments. This is, as I understand it,

917
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 7: the only issue that was not fully resolved that day.

918
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 7: The case the defense made was one that I found convincing,

919
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 7: though of course I have a bias in that direction. Essentially,

920
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 7: the defense's case was that people are not legally on

921
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 7: the hook for the investigation of their own crime, that

922
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 7: it would set a very dangerous precedent to have people

923
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 7: have to pay for the cops's time to arrest them.

924
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 7: The prosecutor's argument was, and I rudely paraphrase here, yeah,

925
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 7: but fuck these people in particular that because there was

926
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 7: a campaign against the MVP, their crimes ought to be

927
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 7: treated differently, in the same standard of the rule of

928
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 7: law should not apply to them. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but

929
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 7: that really was the takeaway that I seem to get.

930
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 7: The judge said he would need to consider the case

931
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 7: law on the matter and would not rule on it

932
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 7: that day. But you know what he would have ruled

933
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 7: on if he was the judge of this podcast. He

934
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 7: would have ruled that it is time for advertising.

935
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 5: And we're back.

936
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 7: The only case that actually went to trial, as I

937
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 7: understand it, was for the only misdemeanor case of the day,

938
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 7: a protester who was accused and convicted later at the

939
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 7: end of the trial of spending a couple days living

940
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 7: inside a length of pipe to prevent it from being

941
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 7: buried in the earth. The full incompetence of the police

942
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 7: was on display from the state trooper who didn't know

943
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 7: what the word diameter meant when asked to describe the

944
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 7: pipeline in question, to the police, who admitted that they

945
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 7: didn't actually bother watching the entrance to the pipe, so

946
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 7: they didn't actually see the protester when they emerged from

947
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 7: the pipe. In court, the cop said the protester came

948
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 7: up to them to turn themselves in and said, quote, well,

949
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 7: you're lucky, I'm honest. A large part of the defense's

950
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 7: case was that the defendant had been denied the right

951
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 7: to a speedy trial, which seems true to me. Misdemeanors

952
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 7: in particular are supposed to move through the court system quickly,

953
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 7: not drag on for a year, because again, it seems

954
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 7: quite like that MVP has been working from the start

955
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 7: to drag on court cases as long as possible. All

956
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 7: the while the trial went on, supporters outside had a

957
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 7: table set up in the parking lot with homemade food,

958
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 7: a staple of this movement. As far as I can tell,

959
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 7: the connections between the front lines and their supporters built

960
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 7: a very strong movement. Indeed, after the trial, an older

961
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 7: local man gave a heartfelt thank you to everyone who

962
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 7: had put their bodies on the line to protect the

963
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 7: mountains he loves. And I went around and talked to people,

964
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 7: feeling a bit odd to be there as a stranger

965
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 7: to the movement and as a journalist. Blocking pipeline construction

966
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 7: through nonviolent direct action is simple and principle, but complicated

967
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 7: in the details. The core of it is that you

968
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 7: leverage your own safety in order to prevent construction crews

969
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 7: from working. Since your own safety is what you're gambling with,

970
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 7: it's well not safe the ideas you put your own

971
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 7: body on the line. In nineteen ninety eight, for example,

972
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 7: Earth First activist named David Chain died when a lagger

973
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 7: dropped a tree on him and killed him, and despite

974
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 7: ample evidence that the lagger in question had been aware

975
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,760
Speaker 7: of the protesters and had been threatening them, no charges

976
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 7: were pressed against him. In two thousand and three, an

977
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 7: American anarchist piece worker named Rachel Corey was killed in

978
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 7: the Gaza Strip when she stood in front of an

979
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 7: Israeli bulldozer trying to stop the bulldozer from demolishing a

980
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 7: Palestinian home. Even when you aren't murdered for doing it,

981
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 7: the work itself is dangerous too. Shortly before I joined

982
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 7: my first forest defense campaign in the Pacific Northwest, an

983
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 7: activist named Whorhound had just fallen to her death from

984
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 7: a tree sit and her absence was a tangible presence

985
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 7: in every meeting and every forest defense camp for years after.

986
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 7: So I don't feel like I'm speaking hyperbolically when I

987
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 7: say that in that courtroom were some of the bravest

988
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 7: people I've ever met who risked their lives to stop

989
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 7: a clear and present threat against it. And again genuinely

990
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 7: believe this is not hyperbolic to say clear and present

991
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 7: threat against all life on Earth. Climate change could very

992
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 7: easily destroy every ecosystem on the planet. This fight is

993
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 7: bigger than Appalachia. These forest defenders at this last trial

994
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 7: knew that they would likely face felonies where they arrested,

995
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 7: and they knew that people have died doing this work

996
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,240
Speaker 7: before them. And I don't want to speak to everyone

997
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 7: involves gender identity, but it seems likely that some of

998
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 7: them were trans as well, and thus risking spending prison

999
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 7: time in the wrong prisons, which is a particularly dangerous

1000
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 7: position to be in. I don't say this to try

1001
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 7: to scare people out of joining movements like this. I

1002
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 7: can name people who have died in nonviolent direct action campaigns,

1003
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 7: and occasionally people have served real jail time, But I've

1004
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,280
Speaker 7: met thousands and thousands more who have saved wild places,

1005
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 7: who have built lifelong friendships, and who have proven to

1006
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 7: themselves that they are who they hoped they would be.

1007
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 7: I want to end this by reading two statements. One

1008
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 7: was written by one of the defendants and was posted

1009
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 7: onto the Ablachians Against Pipeline's Facebook page on March third.

1010
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 7: You can read the full statement over there if you'd like.

1011
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 5: Quote.

1012
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 7: Today we proved that co defendant solidarity works. We were

1013
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 7: able to see how different strategies against a stacked system

1014
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 7: play out. It is in the court's best interest for

1015
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 7: us to take a deal out of fear of trial,

1016
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 7: but today we showed that they are just as afraid

1017
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 7: of an uncertain outcome, and we can use that to

1018
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 7: our advantage when we work together. The people who went

1019
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 7: to trial or pushed it to the brink got objectively

1020
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 7: better outcomes than those who took deals ahead of time,

1021
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 7: and those who took deals often had to struggle with

1022
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 7: changing conditions at trial, but still felt obligated to comply.

1023
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 7: I and another defendant held out, in part out of

1024
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 7: principle for people who had not been offered deals, and

1025
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 7: in part to say fuck you, Bobby Lilly, our prosecutor,

1026
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 7: who is a literal clown. My co defendant and I

1027
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 7: went to bat for another who was not offered a

1028
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,479
Speaker 7: deal at first. My co defendant was offered a deal,

1029
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 7: rather nice one at that, but my friend said no.

1030
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 7: The clown blinked. My friend basically went to trial. Technically

1031
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 7: they took a deal, but they basically started a trial.

1032
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 7: Prosecution made a motion to amend charges, but abruptly the

1033
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 7: clown and his cop body left.

1034
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 5: They ran.

1035
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 7: They had no evidence. Another deal, which was even better,

1036
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 7: was offered, and this time I got one too. For me,

1037
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 7: it was good and an agreement. We took our deals.

1038
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 7: The one other person was offered an okay deal, but

1039
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 7: opted to go to trial with eyes open at the

1040
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 7: courts in competence and crushed it. Little Bobby Lilly looked

1041
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 7: even more like a clown. Every deal that was offered

1042
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 7: only got better, especially on the day of the trial.

1043
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 7: You don't have to accept the first deal, or the second,

1044
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 7: or the third or the fourth. And when they try

1045
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 7: to pit us against each other, it is because they

1046
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:59,919
Speaker 7: know we are stronger together. Initially we were charged with conspiracy.

1047
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 7: The real conspiracy is between prosecutors and the judges, between

1048
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 7: the cops and the corporations. It is the conspiracy between

1049
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 7: your landlord and your boss to keep you exhausted and hungry,

1050
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 7: unable to fight back. It is the dictatorship of the

1051
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 7: billionaires to keep us bound to their world where they

1052
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 7: make and break their own rules. This is bigger than

1053
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 7: a forty two inch wide, three hundred and three mile long,

1054
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 7: ticking time bomb running to Appalachia. It is the fact

1055
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 7: that our lives are bought and sold by the large

1056
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 7: land owning class who are able to ram this project

1057
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 7: through under Joe Biden, despite the harm it'll cause, because

1058
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 7: it will make them money as the world burns. Then

1059
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 7: here's another statement from the person who sat inside the pipe,

1060
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 7: and the statement is from last year.

1061
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 5: Quote.

1062
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 7: Winning looks so much bigger than just stopping this pipeline.

1063
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 7: It's a win through the community folks continue to build.

1064
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 7: It is a win because of the insane amount of

1065
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 7: skills that people have gathered and shared, no whin because

1066
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 7: whether or not this pipeline ever has gas running through it,

1067
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 7: the legacy of resistance in Appalachia still lives. Extractive industry

1068
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 7: knows that they can't fuck with the communities here without

1069
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 7: going through hell, and we better not let them forget that.

1070
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 7: Many times in my life I have felt consumed by grief,

1071
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 7: grief for all the places this pipeline has destroyed, For

1072
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 7: communities who continue to be ravaged by the state and industry,

1073
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 7: For the senseless violence committed against people and land every day,

1074
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 7: For friends and strangers forced into cages. But what keeps

1075
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 7: me moving is knowing that I feel such grief only

1076
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 7: because I have such deep hope and love for what

1077
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 7: could be and what we have the power to create.

1078
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 7: Find or facilitate radical community. Wherever you call home, Think

1079
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 7: about the things you are willing to sacrifice for people

1080
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 7: near and far. Dream of worlds that feel out of reach,

1081
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 7: because I bet they aren't as far away as it

1082
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 7: may seem as the end of the and so yeah,

1083
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 7: though the criminal trials are over, the civil legal fight

1084
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 7: rages on. MVP is attempting to wield civil courts to

1085
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 7: silence its opposition. And if you want to help support

1086
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 7: that fight, which continues, you can donate to Appalachian Legal

1087
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 7: Defense Fund, which you can find probably by just searching

1088
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 7: for it, but you can also find it by going

1089
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 7: to bit dot l y slash app Legal Defense all

1090
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 7: one word, no dashes.

1091
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 5: Anyway.

1092
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 3: That's it for the episode. I'll talk to you soon. Hello,

1093
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 3: and welcome to the podcast. It's me James. Today we

1094
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 3: have a very special episode in which everyone is a doctor.

1095
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 3: I will believe in discussion, of course, as a doctor

1096
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 3: of modern European history. But I'm joined today by venktash Ramnath,

1097
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 3: who is a practicing pullmanologist, a professor at UC San

1098
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 3: Diego Health, a medical director of several its use in

1099
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 3: royal and urban settings, and also the author of the

1100
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 3: substack be a health architect. Welcome to the Shoving Test.

1101
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us.

1102
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 8: Great to be here.

1103
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 3: I'm also joined by doctor Carve Hooder, a gastro enterologist

1104
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 3: and the host of our favorite medical podcast, the House

1105
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 3: of Pod. Of the many you listen to, I'm sure yeah,

1106
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 3: what they might call a super user in a medical

1107
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 3: podcast space you listen to more than. Most importantly, Cave

1108
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 3: is of course our friend, our resident doctor with a

1109
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 3: useful doctorate. So what we want to talk about today

1110
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:55,919
Speaker 3: is Medicare and specifically some of the cuts to medicare.

1111
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 3: More broadly, the I don't know, you have to put

1112
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 3: this challenges for people working in healthcare in the Trump administration. Right,

1113
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 3: we addressed specifically gender affirming care in a previous episode,

1114
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 3: but it doesn't start and end there, right, That might

1115
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 3: be the thing that sort of the culture wars have

1116
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 3: been focusing on recently. But I want to talk more

1117
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 3: broadly about the challenges facing healthcare. So, first of all,

1118
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 3: would one of you care to explain medicare for people

1119
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 3: who are not familiar And some listeners might not be

1120
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 3: living in the United States, or they might just not

1121
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 3: have encountered this yet in their life, So could one

1122
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 3: of you explain what this particular sort of type of

1123
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 3: health insurance is and how it's maybe more vulnerable than

1124
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 3: other types to federal government changes.

1125
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 8: I could take a stab at it.

1126
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 9: I'm not a health policy want but I am a

1127
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 9: physician that has to deal with Medicare all the time.

1128
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 9: So Medicare, in sort of general terms, is a type

1129
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 9: of health insurance that is provided by the federal government.

1130
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 9: It is almost exclusively for individuals above the age of

1131
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 9: sixty five, as it dates back to the nineteen sixties

1132
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 9: with Linda Johnson's Great Society Program, and so since that

1133
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 9: time there has been this blanket coverage for any individuals

1134
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 9: above that age, such that all their medical services or products,

1135
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 9: whatever they need for their healthcare is actually covered by

1136
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 9: the government.

1137
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 8: This is the federal government. Now.

1138
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 9: The interesting thing about Medicare is that there are different

1139
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 9: parts to it. There's Part A, which is primarily for

1140
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 9: some essential services and includes hospital care. There's Part B,

1141
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 9: which includes whatever physicians fees go into that healthcare. And

1142
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 9: then there's Part D, which relates to pharmaceutical prices, so

1143
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 9: your drug costs. It's not comprehensive in the sense that

1144
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 9: there's always something more that individuals need, but Beneicare, for

1145
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 9: all intents and purposes, is the sort of standard and.

1146
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 8: It should cover most of individual's needs.

1147
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:06,439
Speaker 9: Now that said, the commercial payers, that is, the other

1148
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 9: insurance companies that are not federally government sponsored, take their

1149
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 9: lead from Medicare. So a lot of the different payment

1150
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,959
Speaker 9: rates or coverages and services they all look to what

1151
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 9: the centers of Medicare and Medicaid services dictate as far

1152
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,919
Speaker 9: as what is an acceptable reimbursement rate, what are the

1153
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 9: rules around what should be covered and what should not.

1154
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 9: So that's why Medicare is such an important entity for

1155
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 9: the United States.

1156
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll add to that.

1157
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 10: They set the lead of importance here too, because if

1158
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 10: we're talking about telemedicine telehealth, how important that is to

1159
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 10: Medicare patients, to everyone in the country at this point,

1160
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 10: then if they are to cut it. If that happens

1161
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 10: is I think we're probably going to discuss. If that

1162
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 10: goes away, then the other private insurance companies are going

1163
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 10: to follow. That's right, could be across the board changes

1164
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 10: led by these changes of medicare.

1165
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's talk about those changes. Then, as you

1166
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 3: mentioned right, there's this telemedicine. It's a waiver right that

1167
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 3: has allowed telemedicine to be funded through this for the

1168
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 3: last five years. I suppose it's going to expire by

1169
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 3: the end of this month, which is March twenty twenty five.

1170
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 3: If if you're listening later, explain like why telemedicine has

1171
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 3: been such a positive step like in healthcare since if

1172
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 3: you could since twenty twenty and then what we're facing

1173
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 3: if it's no longer funded federally.

1174
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 10: May I'll start this one, but Venkesh definitely want you

1175
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 10: to weigh in on it as well. Does give a little

1176
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 10: background over the past five years that's grown quite a

1177
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 10: bit and it's gone from being kind of this emergency

1178
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 10: stop gap to a real cornerstone of what we consider

1179
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 10: modern healthcare and now it's exceedingly common, like over seventy

1180
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 10: five percent of hospitals in the US connect at a

1181
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 10: distance via video conference or some technology to patients, and

1182
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 10: it's been popular on both sides. It's been popular on

1183
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 10: both sides of the aisle. When it first was done,

1184
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 10: as you mentioned, during COVID, when they said, okay, we're

1185
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 10: gonna peel back some of the restrictions on Medicare coverage

1186
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 10: for these telehealth things, it was considered like a victory,

1187
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 10: like one of the few good things that come out

1188
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 10: of COVID. Both sides liked it. It was popular amongst patients,

1189
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,439
Speaker 10: it was popular amongst medical providers. It was good for

1190
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 10: Republicans and Democrats alike. And as you mentioned, it's been

1191
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 10: kept going through being put in some bill or another

1192
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 10: since it was initially put in I think as they

1193
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 10: called in twenty twenty, and it's been put in one

1194
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 10: bill or another to go with a funding. But then

1195
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 10: came this last December when Congress was going through their spending.

1196
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 10: It was only given this three months reprieve, which is

1197
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 10: going to be up as you mentioned, at the end

1198
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 10: of this month. And if it goes away, there's a

1199
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 10: lot of factors will go into a lot of them,

1200
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 10: but there's a lot of people, older patients, you know,

1201
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 10: compromise patients who don't want to come into office, people

1202
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 10: with disabilities, people can't get around that well, people in

1203
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,879
Speaker 10: rural areas, which is you know, really how it started.

1204
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 10: People who are going to be hurt all across this country.

1205
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 10: And at this point, the majority of people have had

1206
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:30,640
Speaker 10: at least one experience or more in a year with telemedicine.

1207
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 10: It's become a part of a lot of people's lives.

1208
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 10: And if it goes away, you know, there's still going

1209
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 10: to be health care as it is. I mean, it

1210
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 10: doesn't mean healthcare is going away, but it is going

1211
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:44,600
Speaker 10: to put a tremendous burden on patients and hospitals for

1212
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 10: that matter, across the country.

1213
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, let me add to that.

1214
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 9: So, you know, telemedicine has been around for a very

1215
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 9: long time, at least technically speaking, right, I mean, you

1216
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 9: can go back to the nineteen seventies. Even when you

1217
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 9: talk about the intensive caeriod, which is where the sickest

1218
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,680
Speaker 9: people in the hospital are, there are studies that come

1219
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 9: out of the nineteen seventies. However, Ever, since people have

1220
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 9: had iPhones and been on airbnb and everything else. Since

1221
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 9: two thousand and seven, That inflection point actually had a

1222
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 9: wave of opportunity that washed right into medicine, and as

1223
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 9: Cave is saying, you know, we have such a fragmented

1224
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 9: healthcare system that has you know, folks living in rural areas,

1225
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 9: suburban areas, and urban areas, all of whom are at

1226
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 9: the mercy of what specialists may be. They're contracted at

1227
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 9: any given time for any given specialty. Now telemedicine, as

1228
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:44,799
Speaker 9: it's gotten more and more popular, has kind of leveled

1229
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 9: the playing field. I mean, you can be in a

1230
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 9: rural place like where I'm sitting right now on the

1231
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 9: US Mexico border, or you can be in New York City,

1232
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 9: you know, one of the densest populations, but you may

1233
01:09:56,400 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 9: might not have access to specialty expertise without telemedicine. With telemedicine,

1234
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 9: you can now have access and I've seen patients love it.

1235
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 9: You can deal with the sickest of the sick, like

1236
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 9: I said, intensive care units, but you can also have

1237
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 9: outpatient experiences. And we've seen a number of different you know,

1238
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 9: commercial opportunities that have leveraged that. But the point is

1239
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 9: that as we're hearing on this, you know, it's become

1240
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 9: sort of a standard operating procedure for how we deliver healthcare.

1241
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 9: And if you just pull the rug out from that,

1242
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 9: there can be some you know, unintended consequences to that

1243
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 9: that are not insignificant.

1244
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like it makes a lot of sense to

1245
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 3: a lot of people, right, Like I think about my

1246
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 3: own experience with it. I was traveling recently and got

1247
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 3: COVID like a couple of months ago, and there was

1248
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 3: no need for me to go to a clinic and

1249
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 3: be around other people, right, I just needed to contact

1250
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 3: my doctor and get some prescriptions and check in, And like,

1251
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 3: it was so much better that I could do it

1252
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 3: in my pajamas from the bed rather than like having

1253
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 3: to get out. And I'm lucky I have access to

1254
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 3: a car I can drive to to surgery is not

1255
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 3: that far away, have a job that accommodates my schedule.

1256
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 3: But there are million reasons way it might be very

1257
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 3: beneficial to people. So let's talk about you. You mentioned

1258
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 3: this before, but we have commercial insurers, and like people

1259
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 3: might think that this is limited to older folks, or

1260
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 3: it doesn't affect them, or it's something that only impacts

1261
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 3: people who have Medicare. But as you said, Medicare kind

1262
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 3: of sets the standard for what is covered and what

1263
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 3: isn't covered, right, So, can you explain how this might

1264
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 3: end up resulting in it in just a massive like

1265
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 3: a cliff. I've seen it described as a telehealth cliff.

1266
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, so, I mean basically, the sort of this convoluted

1267
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 9: way that we pay for services is it looks to

1268
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 9: one standard, even though some may argue how did that

1269
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 9: standard come about?

1270
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 8: But regardless of.

1271
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 9: That, Medicare is the central authority that basically tells everyone

1272
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 9: this is what we should be doing, and this is

1273
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 9: how much we should be paying for it. Now, the

1274
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 9: commercial insurers can decide to exceed that if they wish.

1275
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 9: If they say, have an employer who's employees they want

1276
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 9: to have a special contract with, that's that's fine, that's

1277
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 9: not restricted. But the bottom of what is considered a

1278
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 9: reimbursable amount is really set by Medicare, and so they

1279
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 9: move the bottom. And so if you drop the bottom,

1280
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 9: you can pretty much well assured in this. You know,

1281
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 9: in a capitalist you know sort of mentality that the

1282
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 9: costs should go down, right, I mean, why should you

1283
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 9: pay more for something that you don't need to write?

1284
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 8: And we see that we see that every year.

1285
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 9: Okay, every year there's new technology, but the slightly older technology,

1286
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 9: which is again covered by Medicare, they move those reimbursements down.

1287
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 9: So whether it's a sleep study, you know, for someone

1288
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 9: with obstructive sleep apn are difficulty sleeping at night, or

1289
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 9: it's some ophthalmology technology, or it's some ultra sound machine,

1290
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 9: it doesn't really matter what it is. Medicare is always

1291
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,640
Speaker 9: trying to minimal cost, which is understandable.

1292
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:02,719
Speaker 8: They want to make it cost.

1293
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 9: Effective, but they are setting the lead so everyone will

1294
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 9: follow what they do. That's kind of the way that

1295
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 9: our system is sort of set up.

1296
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, you know, I might just add to that that

1297
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:18,679
Speaker 10: aside from all the things we mentioned about it, how

1298
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 10: you know, it helps people in rural areas, people with

1299
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 10: difficulty getting places are just really busy schedules. It also,

1300
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 10: you know, helps free hospital beds, helps prevent emergency rooms

1301
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 10: from being overwhelmed. It leads to faster testing, it leads

1302
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 10: to a higher number of people that we can see,

1303
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 10: and in terms of its quality, we know it works

1304
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 10: well and about ninety percent of cases of telemedicine to

1305
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 10: get the same outcomes if the patient was there in clinic,

1306
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 10: and that ten percent that's not it's not clear that

1307
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 10: they're getting inferior care in most of those cases. So

1308
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,759
Speaker 10: it's an effective treatment, and you could make an argument

1309
01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 10: that it is cost effective in some ways too. It's

1310
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:03,600
Speaker 10: particularly clearly for like things of dermatology, pediatrics. These are

1311
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 10: things where it's clearly cost effective to have it. But

1312
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 10: even beyond that, it's not even necessarily I think a

1313
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 10: strong argument that we'll be losing money from it, and

1314
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 10: that cutting it would help us in the long run.

1315
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:17,760
Speaker 10: I feel like if we're being smart about how to

1316
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 10: manage American healthcare system and how to keep it afloat,

1317
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 10: telemedicine is going to be an important part of that

1318
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 10: going forward.

1319
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:27,839
Speaker 9: I want to I do want to add something here,

1320
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 9: and I do want to be careful about the term,

1321
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 9: because telemedicine and telehealth are not only sort of a

1322
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 9: catch all, but they're sort of used interchangeably, right, and

1323
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 9: just like anything, you have to be specific about the term.

1324
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 9: So I think what we're talking about this on this

1325
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 9: podcast is tell amedicine in terms of a two way

1326
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 9: audio visual interface where you can have a direct face

1327
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 9: to face consultation or interaction with a practicing practitioner. Usually

1328
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:01,439
Speaker 9: that's going to be a position, but it may be

1329
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 9: a nurse practitioner or other physician extender we call them.

1330
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 9: But just to be clear, you know, telemedicine also extends

1331
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,599
Speaker 9: to other types of devices like wearables. Those things that

1332
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 9: they are either you know, trackers that you can wear

1333
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 9: as your fitbit, or a sleep device you know that

1334
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 9: you can wear around. Those kinds of things are kind

1335
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:25,799
Speaker 9: of put into the telemedicine bucket and it's not clear

1336
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:28,719
Speaker 9: to me at least how that is going to change.

1337
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 9: I think April first is when they face to face

1338
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 9: coverage from a professional fee standpoint that is slated to

1339
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 9: end because they did liberalize it during the COVID pandemic

1340
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 9: and it's been extended I think another year around that,

1341
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 9: and that will definitely change the dynamic here, but it's

1342
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 9: not clear how much of it extends to other types

1343
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 9: of remote physiologic monitoring services and products.

1344
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, so something like a glucose monitor or like

1345
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 3: yeah some yeah, which could be catastrophic for people, right

1346
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 3: if they don't get those those funded. Right, We're going

1347
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 3: to take a little break for advertisements here. Maybe you'll

1348
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 3: get an advertisement for a Bluecoast Monitor or even Insolent.

1349
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 5: Could only hope.

1350
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad they're taking some of that money

1351
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 3: that they've made me bleed out of my wallet over

1352
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 3: the years and returning it to me in the form

1353
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 3: of podcast advertisements. All right, we're back. Let's talk more

1354
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 3: broadly about I guess the changes in the legislative environment

1355
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:41,640
Speaker 3: for healthcare might be a good way to put it.

1356
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 3: I think if you were an excellent op ed recently

1357
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 3: where you discussed you were one of the many recipients

1358
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:51,400
Speaker 3: of the Tomby five Useful things you did at work

1359
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 3: this week email, I thought you wrote like a really

1360
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 3: good piece about about the varied and critical work that

1361
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 3: you do. Can you talk about, like, what is the

1362
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:08,360
Speaker 3: feeling among healthcare professionals, physicians who have you sort of

1363
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 3: like to speak speak as going into four years of

1364
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 3: possibly vastly reduced government spending and a sort of bizarre

1365
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 3: and haphazard cutting of the federal biocracy that we're seeing.

1366
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a tough time, certainly, and coming out of

1367
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 9: the pandemic, this is not what really anybody expected. But

1368
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:33,639
Speaker 9: you know, the stresses have been mounting for quite a while, right,

1369
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 9: Healthcare professionals are seeing and feeling more stress at work,

1370
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 9: whether it's you know, the demands of the job meaning

1371
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 9: that there are fewer resources to spend on a heightened

1372
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 9: number of patients with you know, increasingly complex diseases, or

1373
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:55,720
Speaker 9: even just the questions that we are getting from patients.

1374
01:17:56,160 --> 01:18:00,479
Speaker 9: A lot of patients now are asking me really financial questions.

1375
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 9: I mean literally, the other day, I had a woman

1376
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 9: who was unfortunately having septic shock and was faced with

1377
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 9: having to amputate her leg, and I was speaking with

1378
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 9: her husband because she was becoming more and more delirious,

1379
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 9: and he was just asking me about, well, I'm going

1380
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 9: to have to sell my house in order to fund

1381
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 9: what might come down the pike as far as being

1382
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 9: at home with services, and I was trying to I

1383
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 9: was trying to kind of get an understanding of how

1384
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:33,200
Speaker 9: he viewed his wife actually going through the thing that

1385
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 9: we're watching in the moment. But it's a preoccupation that

1386
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 9: has taken up a lot of space in the room,

1387
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 9: and it's now coming on to physicians to sort of

1388
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:47,200
Speaker 9: navigate at least some questions and answer those questions around it.

1389
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:49,720
Speaker 9: So that's a long way of saying that, you know,

1390
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 9: physicians and nurses and other healthcare professionals are feeling more

1391
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:57,679
Speaker 9: and more stress in a system that's just buckling, right,

1392
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:01,559
Speaker 9: and the last thing anybody needs is to be having

1393
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 9: to do more without really a clear understanding of the

1394
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 9: purpose around it, right, And we are all for a

1395
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 9: cost effectiveness.

1396
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:10,960
Speaker 8: We want that to work.

1397
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 9: We also want to provide care irrespective of someone's religious, political,

1398
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 9: or other beliefs. And yet, you know, we have to

1399
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 9: work within a system that we kind of are not

1400
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 9: really understanding how they're approaching this issue. Are they are

1401
01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 9: they with us or against us or somewhere in between.

1402
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 9: It's it's sort of a it's a moving target, and

1403
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,760
Speaker 9: so I think that's what's that's what's kind of sandwiched

1404
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 9: a lot of healthcare professionals, and we don't really know

1405
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 9: where to turn for.

1406
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:40,160
Speaker 8: Some of the answers that we ourselves are looking for.

1407
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:43,679
Speaker 10: I would add also, you know, we're seeing this active

1408
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 10: dismantling of the US healthcare infrastructure, and our friends in

1409
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 10: the academic world in particular, it's a very stressful time

1410
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 10: for them. Who knows if their studies are going to

1411
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,320
Speaker 10: go through, who knows if they're going to get their

1412
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 10: funding who knows what's going to stay with going to

1413
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 10: go in the next couple of years. There's a lot

1414
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 10: of concern over that, obviously, But even in the medical

1415
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 10: world outside of the academic centers, I know a lot

1416
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 10: of doctors right now are concerned and they're concerned about

1417
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 10: what's going to happen to the state of our scientific

1418
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 10: community that helps us with new advancements in medical technology

1419
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:23,680
Speaker 10: in the coming years. And it seems like, as Ventechia

1420
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 10: was alluding to, we're dismantling all our ability to follow

1421
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 10: to study to really closely track infectious disease in a

1422
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 10: time that is exceedingly dangerous across the world, with rising disease,

1423
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:42,439
Speaker 10: tuberculosis in this country, measles in this country, in Uganda,

1424
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 10: there's ebola again. There's threats all over the world. And

1425
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 10: this is one of the worst times I could think

1426
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:53,120
Speaker 10: of to be in this moment of austerity, and particularly

1427
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 10: because so much of it seems unclear to us why

1428
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 10: why these things are being done, you know, is it

1429
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,719
Speaker 10: all because of this ridiculous gender ideology. Do they actually

1430
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:05,160
Speaker 10: think they're saving money with some of these things. It's

1431
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 10: a very unclear time. And of course there are a

1432
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 10: lot of people in the medical world, doctors included, that

1433
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 10: are conservative or Republican voters. Getting into conversations with them

1434
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:19,679
Speaker 10: about this is sort of a tough thing to do because,

1435
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 10: like Fintesha mentioned, they, like a lot of us, want

1436
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:25,040
Speaker 10: to make sure we're doing this in a cost effective manner,

1437
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 10: something we talk about and we have been talking about

1438
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:30,679
Speaker 10: in medicine for a long time, particularly academic medicine, interestingly enough,

1439
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 10: which is really on.

1440
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 3: The cutting board.

1441
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:35,880
Speaker 10: It's academic medicine that usually talks about, you know, trying

1442
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,320
Speaker 10: to be cost effective. What tests are we going to order,

1443
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 10: what labs do we need to get, How we doing

1444
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 10: this in the most cost effective way. These are important

1445
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 10: things that are discussed and across the political spectrum in medicine.

1446
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 10: I think there is some concern even amongst some of

1447
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:55,120
Speaker 10: the more right leaning doctors. But again it's hard because

1448
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:57,720
Speaker 10: they've gone this far down the road, it's hard to know,

1449
01:21:58,200 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 10: you know, when they're going to pull back. What's the

1450
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:01,960
Speaker 10: line in the stand for them about what is maybe

1451
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:03,240
Speaker 10: too far for this administration.

1452
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and certainly like an area where we're seeing there

1453
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:12,080
Speaker 3: right now is in like public health, right, we don't

1454
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 3: really know, like I'm going to Texas next week, where

1455
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 3: there's currently a measles outbreak. The things that we didn't

1456
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:21,559
Speaker 3: think that we might be seeing in this country again,

1457
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 3: we're seeing again. And like, as you say, it's coming

1458
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 3: at a time when like not just funding is unstable,

1459
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 3: but also like the I guess, like the basics of

1460
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 3: science have been somewhat politicized right to a degree, and

1461
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:39,720
Speaker 3: like people, I don't know if that's something you see

1462
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,040
Speaker 3: in your practice, but like certainly, like I was talking

1463
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:45,120
Speaker 3: to a doctor friend who said half their clients are

1464
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 3: now like declining vaccinations as I was there to get,

1465
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 3: you know, every disease that I could get. I have

1466
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 3: a lot of travel vaccinations, so I'm always getting new

1467
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:58,559
Speaker 3: and exciting vaccinations. But I'm making up for some of

1468
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 3: the gap, I guess. But it's it's a really challenging

1469
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:05,439
Speaker 3: time right from that perspective as well, like the culture

1470
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 3: around it.

1471
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:06,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.

1472
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 10: I mean even here in the San Francisco Bay area,

1473
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,439
Speaker 10: you know, I've seen more of vaccine hesitation than I

1474
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 10: remember ever seen before in the past.

1475
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:17,680
Speaker 9: It's sort of a vexing question because I think some

1476
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 9: of this is let's be clear, some of this is

1477
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 9: on our messaging, you know, as healthcare professionals. I mean,

1478
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 9: there are more and more articles. In fact, the Wall

1479
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:30,559
Speaker 9: Street Journal piece a couple of weeks ago that was

1480
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 9: saying how patients you know, are increasingly not trusting their

1481
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 9: doctors and there are data to say that we don't

1482
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 9: communicate very well. Right, So there there is that, and

1483
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 9: that's on us. And you know, another op ed piece

1484
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 9: in the Boston Globe by Ashi's Jaw, you know, did

1485
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 9: a mea culpa around some of the things that public

1486
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 9: health we did wrong.

1487
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 8: We got it, we got it.

1488
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 9: Wrong in COVID where we didn't you know, deal with

1489
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:57,120
Speaker 9: some of the doubts and lack of evidentiary base for

1490
01:23:57,320 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 9: masking and some of these other things that basically hurt

1491
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:04,720
Speaker 9: us in the end. So there's definitely that. However, you know,

1492
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 9: restoring the trust in healthcare professionals is sort of like

1493
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 9: a basic step to anyone getting their healthcare. I mean,

1494
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:16,080
Speaker 9: I think people still go to their doctors. Most people

1495
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 9: still trust their doctor to some degree, and I think

1496
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:24,559
Speaker 9: that that's at least a bright spot in where we are,

1497
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:28,880
Speaker 9: because when we've lost that, I think we're really in trouble.

1498
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 9: I mean that's slipping. But I think that there is

1499
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 9: a way to restore that trust. But it starts so

1500
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 9: that it just starts with a conversation. You know, if

1501
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:41,759
Speaker 9: someone has a vaccine hesitancy or they don't understand what's

1502
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:46,600
Speaker 9: going on, that's the opportunity to open the doors to

1503
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:50,280
Speaker 9: a dialogue. And I think maybe that's, you know, maybe

1504
01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 9: that's the starting point for any of this. We all

1505
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 9: want cost effectiveness, we all want you know, transparency. We

1506
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:00,719
Speaker 9: also want to have choices that make sense to us.

1507
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:04,400
Speaker 9: But let's not make it an adversarial confrontation. And I

1508
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:07,479
Speaker 9: think that that goes for both sides. I would add,

1509
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 9: though I agree with you on pretty much all of that.

1510
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 9: I agree that we need to have those conversations, you know,

1511
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 9: if they're difficult. We need to be able to look

1512
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 9: back objectively about things that worked and didn't work. But

1513
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 9: a lot of these sort of mia culpas that have

1514
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:24,920
Speaker 9: come out about like you know, this is where we

1515
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:27,519
Speaker 9: went wrong and why we lost trust, if I'm being honest,

1516
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 9: including that one from Ashi's Yad, has a lot of

1517
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 9: in my opinion, pick me energy, a lot of people

1518
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 9: who are trying to appeal to the incoming administration and

1519
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:39,519
Speaker 9: be like, hey, look, I'm cool too. I'm not always

1520
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:43,559
Speaker 9: about vaccines, and to me, that's just as bad too.

1521
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 9: And I do think we need to have an honest conversation,

1522
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 9: and I do think we need to be clear about

1523
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 9: how we do science.

1524
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:51,880
Speaker 10: Something we need to be able to explain. And you're

1525
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 10: absolutely right, which we didn't do very well is Look,

1526
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 10: we are working with information we have at hand. We're

1527
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:01,720
Speaker 10: doing everything we can may change when it changes, our

1528
01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 10: recommendations are going to.

1529
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 4: Change too, And that is tough.

1530
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 10: That is a tough message to get across because people

1531
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:11,440
Speaker 10: don't like nuance like that. People don't like the uncertainty

1532
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:14,680
Speaker 10: of that. People want to know yes or no absolutely,

1533
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:18,800
Speaker 10: and sometimes it's hard. It's hard to find good communicators

1534
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,200
Speaker 10: and science to do that. But that you're exactly right

1535
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:24,760
Speaker 10: is incumbent upon us as doctors who have a sub

1536
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:28,200
Speaker 10: stack like yours, of a podcast like mine, who are

1537
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 10: academics who have a reach to students and beyond to

1538
01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:34,719
Speaker 10: communicate these things.

1539
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 4: And even though it would be.

1540
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 10: Awesome for the next four years my podcast was just

1541
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 10: about farts and poop, I know I have to do

1542
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 10: a lot of this stuff because I know how important.

1543
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:50,719
Speaker 10: This is now more than ever, So I totally agree

1544
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 10: it's going to start with conversations.

1545
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:56,760
Speaker 3: I think that's a big difference between this is the

1546
01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:58,680
Speaker 3: information we have available when were doing our best with it.

1547
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:01,440
Speaker 3: When we get new information, we'll do something different if

1548
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 3: that's what that information points to. And these people are

1549
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 3: acting out of malice to deprive you of your rights

1550
01:27:07,439 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 3: or you know, which is sometimes what's been suggested by

1551
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 3: some people, and like, I think a good way to

1552
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:15,760
Speaker 3: defeat that, as you say, it's communicating around it. It

1553
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:18,640
Speaker 3: is very sad that, Like when I was doing the

1554
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:22,680
Speaker 3: research for my PhD dissertation, I wrote about First I

1555
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 3: wrote about violence and the Anarchist Builders Union for my masters,

1556
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:28,519
Speaker 3: and then I wrote about public health and popular sport

1557
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:30,920
Speaker 3: in the nineteen thirties in Barcelona, And a lot of

1558
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 3: what you saw anarchists doing in Barcelona in the nineteen

1559
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 3: thirties was talking to people about tuberculosis, educating people about

1560
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:41,920
Speaker 3: tuberculosis and explaining what tuberculosis was and where it came from,

1561
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:47,000
Speaker 3: and like that was in nineteen thirty one, and how.

1562
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 8: Far we've come, baby, wow, wow.

1563
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great. There were some other things from the

1564
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 3: nineteen thirties, which have also made an unwelcome return. Tuberculosis

1565
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 3: is not the only one. There's also the Nazi salute

1566
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 3: in large public gather to the United States, which yeah,

1567
01:28:04,479 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, and I guess i'd answer for them

1568
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 3: both in the nineteen thirties, and they're the same answers

1569
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:22,760
Speaker 3: that apply now. I think people like people will be

1570
01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 3: distressed by this, right, like a lot of people of

1571
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 3: my age and younger. I guess it's folks a bit

1572
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:30,720
Speaker 3: younger than me for the larger part, Like the pandemic

1573
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:34,639
Speaker 3: was a life defining event for a lot of younger folks, right,

1574
01:28:34,720 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 3: and it was a scary thing. It still is a

1575
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 3: scary thing, Like getting COVID still really sucks. And I

1576
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:42,680
Speaker 3: know people who have long COVID and the thought of

1577
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 3: that is petrifying to me. People will be genuinely anxious

1578
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:51,600
Speaker 3: now right at this potential dismantling of the public health apparatus,

1579
01:28:51,640 --> 01:28:57,240
Speaker 3: that rise in vaccine hesitancy, less funding for research, such

1580
01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:01,759
Speaker 3: that if we enter another pandemic with some novel infectious disease,

1581
01:29:02,280 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 3: we won't be able to respond as fast. Right. The

1582
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 3: response to COVID, for the criticisms of it like the

1583
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:10,080
Speaker 3: speed with which we had vaccines was amazing. Some of

1584
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 3: that came from like Vancousca's college that UCSD actually all right,

1585
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:17,559
Speaker 3: like sult I guess which is next door with free parking?

1586
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:18,680
Speaker 8: Which is nice?

1587
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:22,720
Speaker 3: So like, what would you say to people, because this

1588
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:24,479
Speaker 3: is a thing I've seen more and more among folks

1589
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 3: who you know, who are friends of mine, right, is

1590
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 3: like real worry about infectious disease, real concern about new

1591
01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:35,920
Speaker 3: variants of COVID or about you know, the bird flu

1592
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:39,240
Speaker 3: is one, right with these other infectious diseases. I saw

1593
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 3: fifty people have died of it as yet unexplained disease

1594
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:45,519
Speaker 3: in Congo recently. What would you say to those people?

1595
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 3: Because they are concerns are somewhat legitimate, Right, Like, if

1596
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 3: we go into another pandemic, we're not going to be

1597
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:54,360
Speaker 3: anywhere near as effective as we were in twenty twenty

1598
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 3: because of all these combination of reasons we've discussed.

1599
01:29:57,280 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 9: That's a hard question to answer. I would say, let me,

1600
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 9: you know, I think that the COVID pandemic, Yes, there

1601
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 9: are a lot of things that went well. The vaccine

1602
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 9: development was phenomenal, I mean a revolutionary. I mean, who

1603
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,160
Speaker 9: would have expected that to happen. However, it also just

1604
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 9: revealed how shattered our public health system really is in

1605
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:22,200
Speaker 9: terms of messaging, even detection, spreading information. Even the vaccine

1606
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 9: distribution was completely chaotic, Right, So so I don't want

1607
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:31,000
Speaker 9: to say that, you know, the public health response during

1608
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 9: COVID was some sort of paragon to be emulated or replicated, right.

1609
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 9: So that said, though, absolutely, I mean, you know, how

1610
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:42,599
Speaker 9: are we going to handle a new era of this

1611
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:45,559
Speaker 9: what if you know, scenario where we don't know what

1612
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:48,639
Speaker 9: virus is coming next. I mean, I'm seeing these days,

1613
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 9: I'm even seeing viruses that never caused the kind of

1614
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 9: respiratory failure in the past, they're doing it now, whether

1615
01:30:54,600 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 9: it's RSV, the respiratory syensitial virus, or even non COVID coronavirus,

1616
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,680
Speaker 9: which should just give you a cold the sniffles, and

1617
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 9: yet it's causing devastating, you know, pneumonias. So we're in

1618
01:31:06,320 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 9: a new era and you know, antibiotic resistance is not

1619
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:13,720
Speaker 9: getting any less problematic. So what do we do in

1620
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:17,639
Speaker 9: this era? Well, I think awareness is the first thing. Okay,

1621
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 9: awareness around Yes, I mean, these diseases are transmitted from

1622
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:25,880
Speaker 9: person to person you know, we all know somebody who

1623
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:28,679
Speaker 9: doesn't want to take a vaccine. I mean, I don't

1624
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:30,720
Speaker 9: think there's that's a surprise to say we know of

1625
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 9: somebody or directly or maybe one degree of separation, right,

1626
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:37,960
Speaker 9: And I think you need to have those community conversations.

1627
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 9: You need to have one on one conversations. Yes, it's

1628
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 9: going to be uncomfortable, but we got to talk about

1629
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:46,519
Speaker 9: it and talk to your healthcare provider about it. I mean, yes,

1630
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:48,559
Speaker 9: you can look up stuff on TikTok. Yes, you can

1631
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 9: look up stuff on Google or you name your online resource.

1632
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:57,200
Speaker 9: But you want to have a person that can actually

1633
01:31:57,360 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 9: understand from years of living and living and breathing this stuff,

1634
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 9: and also who listens to you as a human being

1635
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 9: in the same community or somewhere nearabouts right to put

1636
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:12,959
Speaker 9: together what the science says in some sort of meaningful

1637
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:17,080
Speaker 9: way to you, uh, and not some anonymous you know

1638
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:20,880
Speaker 9: resource that may or may not have all the you know,

1639
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 9: all the data their fingertips, you know. So so I

1640
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:27,080
Speaker 9: guess it still goes back to how does anyone find

1641
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:31,040
Speaker 9: reliable information? Where do you go when you've got questions?

1642
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:34,519
Speaker 9: Most people want a human being who's lived and breathed

1643
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:38,479
Speaker 9: this with experience to help them navigate. I I certainly

1644
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:40,759
Speaker 9: see that not just as a doctor, but as a friend,

1645
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:44,760
Speaker 9: as a family member. I mean constantly, you know, they're

1646
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 9: asking me these things, and I would suggest that you

1647
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:51,800
Speaker 9: know your audience may have connections both personally but also

1648
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:53,599
Speaker 9: professionally to those.

1649
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:54,960
Speaker 8: Folks that can help them navigate.

1650
01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:57,680
Speaker 10: You know, and to answer your question from my perspective,

1651
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:01,439
Speaker 10: is a challenge. I I think people should be concerned.

1652
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:04,559
Speaker 10: In fact, I just did two parter with one of

1653
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:09,920
Speaker 10: the world's best virologists talking about the possible bird flu

1654
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 10: pandemic that could arise and all the threats that are

1655
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:15,479
Speaker 10: out there, and so I do think there are some

1656
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 10: really significant, serious risks to be worried about. However, I'm

1657
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 10: never gonna say there's nothing that can be done about it.

1658
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:24,680
Speaker 10: There's plenty that can still be done about it. I

1659
01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:27,559
Speaker 10: still maintain hope in the medical community for what we're

1660
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 10: able to do and what we're able to accomplish, And

1661
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 10: to echo what I think both of you guys have

1662
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:34,960
Speaker 10: said or would at least agree with, there's a lot

1663
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:38,120
Speaker 10: of changes that we can make locally amongst our small

1664
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 10: sphere of influence and then growing out from there in

1665
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:45,559
Speaker 10: terms of getting vaccinated, in terms of wearing masks when needed,

1666
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,360
Speaker 10: or at least looking at the data with an open

1667
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 10: mind and sharing good resources. Because one thing that the

1668
01:33:52,160 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 10: younger population is good about, and what some of the

1669
01:33:55,640 --> 01:34:00,879
Speaker 10: people you're mentioning, James, is they're good at detecting online

1670
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:04,400
Speaker 10: and that's a skill that needs to be honed for

1671
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:09,040
Speaker 10: medical literacy as well, and I'm hopeful that that's going

1672
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 10: to continue to improve. Maybe stupid optimism, but I do

1673
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 10: believe the younger generation is going to continue to be

1674
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,200
Speaker 10: better at that than the older generation, and I think

1675
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 10: that will help battle a lot of the misinformation that's

1676
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:22,720
Speaker 10: out there. But there are things that they can do

1677
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 10: in fact, for getting back to the telehealthing. For example,

1678
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 10: talking about telemedicine slash telehealth as vnteche sort of broke

1679
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 10: down in terms of it being cut at the end

1680
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:35,559
Speaker 10: of the month. There are people that are really pushing

1681
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 10: against that, including Rocana, who's here a legislator here in

1682
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:43,640
Speaker 10: California who's proposed a new bill. I haven't been able

1683
01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 10: to see any of the details of it, but there

1684
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:48,880
Speaker 10: are a lot, including Amazon. By the way, Amazon is

1685
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:51,599
Speaker 10: one of like three hundred and fifty companies that have

1686
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:56,120
Speaker 10: written a letter to the to Congress to help push

1687
01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 10: for this funding. So if you can call a congres

1688
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 10: if you can do that, if you can keep bothering

1689
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:06,080
Speaker 10: them telling them how important it is, I think those

1690
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 10: are things that can help. So I think that's a

1691
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 10: good place to start.

1692
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really get piece of advice.

1693
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 9: If I could just follow up with that. I think

1694
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 9: part of what will help with the support for some

1695
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 9: of these programs is to take you know, take us

1696
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:24,320
Speaker 9: take a few minutes to think about what the other

1697
01:35:24,479 --> 01:35:26,760
Speaker 9: side is worried about, right. I mean, we all know

1698
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 9: about the excesses of certain online bad actors. Who are

1699
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:38,040
Speaker 9: they use telemedicine to promote you know, ADHD medications or

1700
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:42,760
Speaker 9: other types of psychotropic medications, which was not it was

1701
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:45,680
Speaker 9: not supported, and it actually caused harm. Right, So so

1702
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:50,799
Speaker 9: there are things out there that are excesses and somewhat harmful.

1703
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 9: And if we could as a community sort of help

1704
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:58,280
Speaker 9: frame the approach to dealing with some of those things

1705
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:01,559
Speaker 9: and preventing some of those problems, then I think some

1706
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 9: of the support will kind of sort of shortself. I

1707
01:36:05,360 --> 01:36:07,680
Speaker 9: think the worry is if you open up the floodgates

1708
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:10,599
Speaker 9: too wide, you know, human nature being what it is,

1709
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 9: it's going to encourage bad behavior. Not that anybody wants that,

1710
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:17,280
Speaker 9: but there is something to be said about some scrutiny. Right,

1711
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:20,760
Speaker 9: So if we're the ones, and I completely support the

1712
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:23,599
Speaker 9: use of tell medicine, but I also want to be

1713
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:27,639
Speaker 9: careful about how to promote its thoughtful and safe use

1714
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 9: and wed that in the proposal and not just leave

1715
01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 9: it for others to figure out.

1716
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:35,120
Speaker 8: That I think would potentially.

1717
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 9: Change the conversation around while you just want this and

1718
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 9: we're not going to give it to you, like the

1719
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:43,479
Speaker 9: standoff will will subside when you try to work it,

1720
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 9: work a partnership out as opposed to a give it

1721
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:48,559
Speaker 9: to me or else kind of scenario.

1722
01:36:48,640 --> 01:36:50,720
Speaker 10: I don't disagree with that, but I also think you're

1723
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:55,720
Speaker 10: giving those more credit than I would, which is to

1724
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,439
Speaker 10: say that they actually, really, they really would focus and

1725
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:01,240
Speaker 10: listen to I think what they've just done is literally,

1726
01:37:01,640 --> 01:37:06,200
Speaker 10: you know, take a chainsaw and cut away at major

1727
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:09,759
Speaker 10: federal funding and then kind of seeing what was really

1728
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:12,719
Speaker 10: bad about that and what wasn't and being like, oh, Okay,

1729
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:15,680
Speaker 10: maybe we do need people in charge of nuclear security.

1730
01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:18,439
Speaker 10: Oh maybe this is popular, We'll put it back. You know,

1731
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:21,640
Speaker 10: I kind of think that they're not taking as much

1732
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:24,479
Speaker 10: attention or care. But I also do agree that the

1733
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:27,200
Speaker 10: point is is valid. I mean, sure, is there fraud

1734
01:37:27,680 --> 01:37:31,439
Speaker 10: in some telemedicine? Yeah, I'm sure, probably small, very small percentage.

1735
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:34,120
Speaker 10: But if we can specify its use, if we can

1736
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 10: be better about that, I agree, I'm all for it.

1737
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:40,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially right now. I was just thinking, as you're

1738
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:43,720
Speaker 3: talking about, like how important is people that accessing reproductive

1739
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:47,160
Speaker 3: healthcare and being able to access reproductive healthcare wherever they are,

1740
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:51,760
Speaker 3: and like how much more difficult that would be, right

1741
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:53,680
Speaker 3: if people didn't have ten of medicine appointments. So I

1742
01:37:53,680 --> 01:37:56,120
Speaker 3: think we've spoken about before on the show. But yeah,

1743
01:37:56,200 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 3: I'm sure there are some school cases. I'm sure there

1744
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 3: are a bunch of CIS gender guys getting gender affirming

1745
01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:06,559
Speaker 3: hormonal care through telemedicine who probably could go without and

1746
01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:10,240
Speaker 3: be Okay, guys, I'd like to wrap up there, but

1747
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:12,280
Speaker 3: I want to give you a chance both to You

1748
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:15,760
Speaker 3: talked a lot about like science communication, So where can

1749
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,480
Speaker 3: people find you online? Where can they see you communicating

1750
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 3: your medical knowledge?

1751
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:23,520
Speaker 9: Okay, Well, so I thanks James, I have a substack.

1752
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:26,400
Speaker 9: It's called Be a Health Architect. You can book me

1753
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 9: up at Be a Health Architect, and you know, I

1754
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:33,240
Speaker 9: have a conversation there around an issue that certainly affects

1755
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:35,640
Speaker 9: me and those around me, which is physician burnout, but

1756
01:38:36,120 --> 01:38:38,759
Speaker 9: in the larger sphere of healthcare professionals, it really touches

1757
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 9: everybody in healthcare. So that's where I'm posting actively. I'm

1758
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:47,960
Speaker 9: also sharing that, you know, through various other avenues such

1759
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 9: as X and Blue Sky and other places, so you

1760
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:52,120
Speaker 9: can you can find me there.

1761
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:54,880
Speaker 8: Look forward to seeing you there.

1762
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1763
01:38:55,520 --> 01:38:59,000
Speaker 10: I would also recommend Vintesha's substack if you're in the

1764
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:03,200
Speaker 10: medical field in particular, I think you'll appreciate it. A

1765
01:39:03,240 --> 01:39:07,360
Speaker 10: focus on burnout is as important as it's ever been,

1766
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:09,719
Speaker 10: if not much much more. I mean, we were talking

1767
01:39:09,760 --> 01:39:14,200
Speaker 10: about burnout and moral injury in doctors before COVID, and

1768
01:39:14,280 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 10: now you know, down a couple of years down the road,

1769
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:18,920
Speaker 10: it's only worse. So I think it's really important and

1770
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 10: I do recommend it, or you know, check out his

1771
01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:24,879
Speaker 10: latest article in the Los Angeles Times. As you mentioned before.

1772
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 10: As for me, find me on Blue Sky at Cave MD.

1773
01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:31,920
Speaker 10: But more importantly, just listen to the podcast The House

1774
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,639
Speaker 10: of Pod. If you are a fan of this show,

1775
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:36,840
Speaker 10: I think you're going to like The House of Pod

1776
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:38,639
Speaker 10: if you haven't already given it a try.

1777
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:41,599
Speaker 5: It's a lot of the same people that you hear.

1778
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:44,400
Speaker 10: On this show. On the House of Pod. James included

1779
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:46,439
Speaker 10: he's going to be coming back to talk about the

1780
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,320
Speaker 10: measles and with an author of a new book down

1781
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 10: there about the measles outbreak. And you know, we take

1782
01:39:53,439 --> 01:39:56,519
Speaker 10: a look at grifters, medical grifters, We take a look

1783
01:39:56,600 --> 01:40:00,400
Speaker 10: at some people that would be considered medical contrarians. We

1784
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:03,599
Speaker 10: take a look at some of the quackery in medicine

1785
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:07,479
Speaker 10: as well. So I think you'll appreciate this show. If

1786
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:10,639
Speaker 10: you like the whole behind the Bastards verse, I think

1787
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:12,880
Speaker 10: you'll get into the House of Podso, so check us

1788
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:15,080
Speaker 10: out where you get your podcasts.

1789
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:17,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, great, Thank you so much for joining us. Guys,

1790
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:18,120
Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

1791
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:18,880
Speaker 8: Thanks, thank you.

1792
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 5: Welcome to and it could happen here Special Report. I'm

1793
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:46,080
Speaker 5: Garrison Davis. I'm joined by James Stout and Sophie right

1794
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 5: when you're in so exactly, we are here to discuss

1795
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:55,000
Speaker 5: Trump's first Joint Session speech of his second term. This

1796
01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 5: is basically the equivalent of a state of the Union,

1797
01:40:57,400 --> 01:40:59,439
Speaker 5: except it's too early to really give a good state

1798
01:40:59,439 --> 01:41:01,639
Speaker 5: of the Union, even though this month has felt kind

1799
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:05,080
Speaker 5: of like a year. So we are doing a special

1800
01:41:05,120 --> 01:41:09,439
Speaker 5: report here in addition to our regular executive Disorder episode,

1801
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:12,280
Speaker 5: because there is just so much to talk about that

1802
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:16,920
Speaker 5: we cannot fit it all in our regular ed pause

1803
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:23,640
Speaker 5: pause for effect. Okay, guess it was us speaking of

1804
01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:31,240
Speaker 5: This was the longest Wow Session speech in American history,

1805
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:34,519
Speaker 5: and man, it felt like it lasted forever.

1806
01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, and boy, howdy did it

1807
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:39,400
Speaker 1: feel never ending?

1808
01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:41,479
Speaker 5: It went on so long.

1809
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:43,519
Speaker 3: Not a great feat of ar tree. Really.

1810
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:45,960
Speaker 5: I was supposed to watch some yawie with a friend

1811
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:48,960
Speaker 5: last night and they came over and I was like, haha,

1812
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:52,719
Speaker 5: I gotcha. Actually I have to watch this this speech first.

1813
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 5: Don't worry. Usually it's only like an hour or so. Two.

1814
01:41:57,040 --> 01:41:59,639
Speaker 1: I did the exact same Two hours later, I did

1815
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:03,320
Speaker 1: the exact same scam to my friend Sarah. She was like,

1816
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, I seriously love you, right because this is horrible, horrible.

1817
01:42:09,400 --> 01:42:11,360
Speaker 5: Two hours later, it finally ends and they're like, Okay,

1818
01:42:11,400 --> 01:42:13,720
Speaker 5: we can finally watch yawee, right, I'm like, no, no, no,

1819
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:19,200
Speaker 5: I have to watch the Democratic response speech. Don't worry.

1820
01:42:19,240 --> 01:42:22,960
Speaker 5: It should be shorter, and thankfully it was. Yeah, but yeah,

1821
01:42:23,040 --> 01:42:25,719
Speaker 5: let's let's just start by talking about like the beginning

1822
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:29,120
Speaker 5: of this speech, or rather with the general overview of

1823
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:32,439
Speaker 5: this speech was. This was not a leaning across the

1824
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:35,960
Speaker 5: aisle speech, right, This wasn't trying to unite the country. No,

1825
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:39,160
Speaker 5: it was not, but you know, just cater to core

1826
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 5: like mega supporters and new issues at the center of

1827
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:45,720
Speaker 5: the modern right wing media machine. The version of the

1828
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:49,799
Speaker 5: speech I watched on ABC frequently cut to Matt Walsh

1829
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:53,559
Speaker 5: and Ben Shapiro sitting together overlooking Congress as they were

1830
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:56,000
Speaker 5: special guests of the President and the First Lady.

1831
01:42:56,240 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: Yes, magic, they did they did this. They did this

1832
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:03,160
Speaker 1: on CNN. I switched back and forth between a couple

1833
01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:06,160
Speaker 1: of channels. I noted this to our team. But when

1834
01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 1: I first looked up, like what time the speech was starting,

1835
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:11,800
Speaker 1: I turned on my TV and went to see it

1836
01:43:11,920 --> 01:43:15,280
Speaker 1: in and I happened upon the them talking about if

1837
01:43:15,320 --> 01:43:20,720
Speaker 1: Dems should not applaud or if they should heckle, and

1838
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:23,800
Speaker 1: some motherfucker I don't care about said that Gems should

1839
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 1: find places to applaud him to show unity.

1840
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:28,000
Speaker 5: Cool.

1841
01:43:28,479 --> 01:43:31,360
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, mm hmm, that's always worked well.

1842
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:36,080
Speaker 1: Dems should find places to applaud him, to.

1843
01:43:36,479 --> 01:43:39,879
Speaker 5: Draw to the king, the king for ruining the government,

1844
01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:44,519
Speaker 5: firing all the workers. Give him a clap. Why don't you, Sorry, James,

1845
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:46,400
Speaker 5: I realized that got a little insensitive.

1846
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:50,000
Speaker 3: Wow, yeah, Garrison, this is why we have to watch

1847
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:53,200
Speaker 3: those videos where the bad actors talk about how they do.

1848
01:43:53,360 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 1: Not anymore talking about our workplace harassment videos.

1849
01:43:56,439 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 5: EI is over, James, No more of those videos here

1850
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:01,920
Speaker 5: in the freeze state of Georgia. That's illegal.

1851
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:06,240
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, here in California, I have approximately seventy five little

1852
01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:09,519
Speaker 3: little red bells and I log into my work day.

1853
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:12,599
Speaker 5: But like a single time, early in the speech, Trump

1854
01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:17,320
Speaker 5: asked Democrats why not join us in celebrating America. After

1855
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:20,639
Speaker 5: he complained, I could cure any disease, and these people

1856
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 5: sitting right here, the Democrats, they would not cheer. I

1857
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:26,439
Speaker 5: could cure any disease, and these people wouldn't cheer.

1858
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:29,679
Speaker 1: No, No, that was weird. I mean, like some Dems

1859
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:32,599
Speaker 1: didn't even show up. They had the subcab of wearing

1860
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:36,120
Speaker 1: certain they did the same performative bullshit they always do.

1861
01:44:36,400 --> 01:44:38,960
Speaker 1: And they had what I can only describe as like

1862
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:42,800
Speaker 1: church paddles the status statistic signs on it.

1863
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:43,679
Speaker 5: They weren't.

1864
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:46,639
Speaker 1: They weren't even like I mean, like come.

1865
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:52,599
Speaker 5: On, like a good description. But no, some Dems did

1866
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:56,840
Speaker 5: not show up in protest. Others were black, kind of.

1867
01:44:56,840 --> 01:44:57,639
Speaker 4: Like in mourning.

1868
01:44:58,080 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, who cares.

1869
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 5: Of the women's caucus were pink, very cool, very feminist,

1870
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:07,320
Speaker 5: and others were the colors of the Ukrainian flag. Sure

1871
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:11,240
Speaker 5: that will help, but you know, Trump just pointed towards

1872
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:13,559
Speaker 5: the Democrat side of the chamber throughout the night and

1873
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 5: just referred to them as the radical left lunatics. Like this,

1874
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:19,720
Speaker 5: this was not across the aisle speed.

1875
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:20,559
Speaker 1: No, it wasn't.

1876
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:24,599
Speaker 5: This was this was, if anything, emphasizing the divisions within

1877
01:45:24,640 --> 01:45:25,120
Speaker 5: the country.

1878
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:28,320
Speaker 1: One of the things that happened before the speech even

1879
01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:35,000
Speaker 1: started was like he drove in with Milania and Elon.

1880
01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:37,000
Speaker 5: First lady and first bitch boy.

1881
01:45:37,080 --> 01:45:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, first buddy, Garrison, first buddy is the official term.

1882
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:47,840
Speaker 1: First buddy. Yeah, I don't know, but like you know,

1883
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:48,920
Speaker 1: Trump starts off the.

1884
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 5: Speech with America is back, and like.

1885
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:55,000
Speaker 1: How far back are we talking? Because you're not wrong.

1886
01:45:57,120 --> 01:46:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, like eighteen sixty four, I think it's the it's

1887
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:01,280
Speaker 3: the goal.

1888
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:03,439
Speaker 5: I mean, this is the same phrase that that Biden

1889
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,040
Speaker 5: opened his first speech with as well. I think Biden

1890
01:46:06,080 --> 01:46:09,080
Speaker 5: was referring to, like we are back to pre Trump America,

1891
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:11,840
Speaker 5: and now Trump is using this phrase to refer to

1892
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:15,160
Speaker 5: like this like mythical America. Right sure, but no. Trump

1893
01:46:15,240 --> 01:46:20,759
Speaker 5: took the stage to USA chance throughout yeah, thout the rotunda.

1894
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 6: That was.

1895
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:23,960
Speaker 3: You know, I grew up watching the Houses of Parliament,

1896
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:28,559
Speaker 3: so I'm used to like the boomers getting unruly, but

1897
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:29,759
Speaker 3: this was something else.

1898
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:33,000
Speaker 1: They're just so fairal it's weird.

1899
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,960
Speaker 5: So cheesy. The speech was outlining like a new golden

1900
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:40,360
Speaker 5: age of America and the renewal of the American dream.

1901
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:44,679
Speaker 5: Trump talked about how he has accomplished in forty three

1902
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:48,120
Speaker 5: days more than most administrations do in four to eight years,

1903
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:50,320
Speaker 5: and that we're just getting started.

1904
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:50,679
Speaker 3: Cool.

1905
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:54,400
Speaker 5: He referred to this wide popular mandate a quote, a

1906
01:46:54,439 --> 01:46:56,400
Speaker 5: mandate like this has not been seen in many decades,

1907
01:46:57,120 --> 01:46:59,879
Speaker 5: referring to like winning all swing states, winning the electoral

1908
01:47:00,360 --> 01:47:03,000
Speaker 5: and the popular vote, and reference to this mandate kind

1909
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:06,120
Speaker 5: of sparked the big boo, big like disruption of the.

1910
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:12,160
Speaker 1: Night, specifically when he started saying we won the popular vote.

1911
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:14,920
Speaker 3: Which like it's heavily disputed, Like, I.

1912
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:17,559
Speaker 5: Don't know, I don't think that that's not specifically what

1913
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 5: mister Green was talking about.

1914
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:23,679
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily talking about when he specifically was saying

1915
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:27,519
Speaker 1: that's when the crowd had their biggest they did reaction

1916
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:31,040
Speaker 1: of the night, which like weird in my opinion.

1917
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:33,639
Speaker 3: It's great. It's the thing that Democrats are doing now,

1918
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 3: which is trying to be like the Republicans but lib

1919
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,439
Speaker 3: like kind of just I suppose.

1920
01:47:40,439 --> 01:47:43,800
Speaker 1: But not really because they didn't follow fucking through.

1921
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:48,600
Speaker 5: Without any like strength, like without any actual like momentum.

1922
01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:49,840
Speaker 3: Right, like we saw like the sort of blue and

1923
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:52,840
Speaker 3: non attempts at election denial like after the election, and

1924
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:55,960
Speaker 3: like I don't think that's what they were doing here, agreed.

1925
01:47:56,160 --> 01:47:59,719
Speaker 3: They gave off this like yeah, this very ineffectual kind

1926
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:04,080
Speaker 3: of a half fast attempt at booing. And then aside

1927
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:06,840
Speaker 3: from Green, they they'll just sit down and wave their

1928
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:07,559
Speaker 3: ping pong things.

1929
01:48:07,680 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so representative of Al Green from Texas old man

1930
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:12,000
Speaker 5: with Caine.

1931
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:14,640
Speaker 3: It's a good cane. It's got a gold handle, like

1932
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:15,240
Speaker 3: I thought.

1933
01:48:15,040 --> 01:48:16,200
Speaker 1: It was snazzy.

1934
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:18,680
Speaker 3: I thought, I mean, it's a sort of cane you

1935
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:20,519
Speaker 3: normally see a sword coming out of if I'm.

1936
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:22,880
Speaker 5: Mind, Yeah, that would have been cooler. That would have

1937
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:25,719
Speaker 5: been cooler. But instead he doesn't waves the cane around

1938
01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:28,559
Speaker 5: talking about how this mandate doesn't mean that there's a

1939
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:32,400
Speaker 5: mandate to like, you know, cut medicaid, cut medicare. That

1940
01:48:32,479 --> 01:48:35,240
Speaker 5: was specifically what he was talking about. Television mics did

1941
01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:36,080
Speaker 5: not really pick that up.

1942
01:48:36,280 --> 01:48:39,160
Speaker 3: No, and a lot of reporting didn't either, which was shitty.

1943
01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:41,519
Speaker 3: I thought, like, yeah, a lot of reporting just mentioned

1944
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:43,840
Speaker 3: that he had shouted and not what he had shouted about,

1945
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:46,880
Speaker 3: which I think is like, really, when you like, you see,

1946
01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:49,120
Speaker 3: what the media is doing is serving as like the

1947
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:52,000
Speaker 3: propaganderam of a certain class of people when they're more

1948
01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:56,000
Speaker 3: upset that he was shouting than that he was protesting

1949
01:48:56,320 --> 01:48:57,960
Speaker 3: the fact that people are going to lose their healthcare

1950
01:48:57,960 --> 01:48:59,080
Speaker 3: and probably die because of it.

1951
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:03,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like Trump started like yelling over these protests.

1952
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:05,439
Speaker 5: There was like a brief maybe like like you know,

1953
01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 5: minute or so, like yelling match in the chamber. Mike

1954
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 5: Johnson was like what do I do here? Eventually, you know,

1955
01:49:12,479 --> 01:49:16,960
Speaker 5: Mike Johnson threatens mister Green gives warning and eventually directs

1956
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:19,479
Speaker 5: the Sergeant of Arms to restore order and remove him

1957
01:49:19,479 --> 01:49:23,680
Speaker 5: from the chambers. Not a regular scene in American politics,

1958
01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:26,200
Speaker 5: but a scene that you might be more familiar with

1959
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:33,080
Speaker 5: in overseas politics, and specifically in democracies that are in trouble.

1960
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:35,599
Speaker 5: You'll have more and more scenes like this.

1961
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:38,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, we can't get any smoke grenades like you see

1962
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:39,200
Speaker 3: in Serbia.

1963
01:49:39,280 --> 01:49:41,519
Speaker 5: You know it's still twenty twenty five, James, we still

1964
01:49:41,520 --> 01:49:42,400
Speaker 5: have three more.

1965
01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:45,840
Speaker 3: Three more years, three more years soon to break out

1966
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:47,040
Speaker 3: the ass off smoke grenades.

1967
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:50,599
Speaker 5: Whether or not this is like, you know, performative or cringe,

1968
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:54,120
Speaker 5: it's like it's something that demonstrates, Hey, like this, this

1969
01:49:54,240 --> 01:49:57,360
Speaker 5: actually isn't normal, more than holding up a cheesy sign

1970
01:49:57,439 --> 01:49:59,920
Speaker 5: next to Trump reading this is not normal, which is

1971
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:03,040
Speaker 5: some others did in protest. This actually is treating it

1972
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:06,439
Speaker 5: like a serious situation, and more Democrats should have done this.

1973
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:09,360
Speaker 5: They should have staggered their protests throughout the entirety of

1974
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:14,040
Speaker 5: the speech, continually disrupting it, making this speech basically unable

1975
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:17,840
Speaker 5: to end. Pushing this past midnight, having an endless procession

1976
01:50:18,280 --> 01:50:21,360
Speaker 5: of people having to be escorted out, you should force

1977
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:24,479
Speaker 5: Congress to censure half of the sit in Congress people like,

1978
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 5: if this really is like an actual existential threat to

1979
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:33,160
Speaker 5: our democracy, if Trump represents right now a genuine constitutional crisis,

1980
01:50:33,280 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 5: which he does, he is ignoring the courts, the people

1981
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:37,599
Speaker 5: in Congress should fucking act like it.

1982
01:50:38,920 --> 01:50:44,080
Speaker 1: They should have gone literally, single file, one by one.

1983
01:50:44,120 --> 01:50:46,920
Speaker 5: Stagger it every like three minutes so that he just

1984
01:50:47,080 --> 01:50:50,840
Speaker 5: is unable to finish the speech. Have Mike Johnson do

1985
01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:54,519
Speaker 5: this every time because he was thrown. He was thrown,

1986
01:50:54,600 --> 01:50:56,439
Speaker 5: and they should have continued to do this. The fact

1987
01:50:56,479 --> 01:50:59,200
Speaker 5: that no one else did is pretty disappointing.

1988
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:02,400
Speaker 3: You could see Ants was very uncomfortable as well, Like.

1989
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:05,240
Speaker 5: He didn't have that nervous smile for most of well.

1990
01:51:05,120 --> 01:51:07,960
Speaker 3: He normally does when he's confronted with a human being.

1991
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:11,800
Speaker 5: But later on the speech, after Trump talked about you know,

1992
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:14,360
Speaker 5: trans women in sports and the price of eggs, you

1993
01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:18,400
Speaker 5: had you had a group of Democrats wearing resist t

1994
01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:21,519
Speaker 5: shirts walk out of the speech in protest, and like

1995
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:24,840
Speaker 5: that's so much more pathetic than actually like standing up

1996
01:51:24,880 --> 01:51:27,920
Speaker 5: and talking about how this guy is ignoring the courts

1997
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 5: and is actually breaking the constitution. Like that's what they

1998
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:32,960
Speaker 5: should have all been doing instead of wearing resist lim

1999
01:51:33,040 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 5: merch performatively.

2000
01:51:35,240 --> 01:51:39,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could ran on, you know, to go parodying this,

2001
01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:41,800
Speaker 3: but you actually couldn't because they would just do that

2002
01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:44,880
Speaker 3: next time, Like if they really think this is the last,

2003
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 3: the last joint session of Congress, the ever going to

2004
01:51:47,160 --> 01:51:48,719
Speaker 3: have They sure didn't act like it or whatever.

2005
01:51:49,400 --> 01:51:51,840
Speaker 5: But this is going to be the first ad break

2006
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:55,720
Speaker 5: in a series of two mid episode ad breaks that

2007
01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:59,160
Speaker 5: we are playing on this show. So here's the ads.

2008
01:52:08,640 --> 01:52:10,720
Speaker 5: All right, we are back. I hope you pick up

2009
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:14,120
Speaker 5: your new ad break themed T shirts to walk around

2010
01:52:14,120 --> 01:52:15,600
Speaker 5: in protest of capitalism.

2011
01:52:15,720 --> 01:52:17,440
Speaker 3: Yep, not made by unions.

2012
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:23,599
Speaker 5: All right, let's talk about transgenderism. One of the first

2013
01:52:23,640 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 5: topics Trump discussed at length was the anti trans culture war,

2014
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:31,519
Speaker 5: declaring that the government will be woke no longer.

2015
01:52:31,840 --> 01:52:34,639
Speaker 3: Oh God, that fully fucking sent me. I've forgotten about that.

2016
01:52:35,280 --> 01:52:38,440
Speaker 3: It's just so. As the drunk old man at pub.

2017
01:52:38,439 --> 01:52:42,120
Speaker 5: He bragged about about signing an executive order establishing that

2018
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:45,280
Speaker 5: there's only two genders, as well as an order preventing

2019
01:52:45,360 --> 01:52:49,880
Speaker 5: quote unquote men from playing in women's sports. He first

2020
01:52:50,080 --> 01:52:53,120
Speaker 5: pointed out to someone in the audience who was a

2021
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:58,320
Speaker 5: former volleyball player who got hurt by a volleyball and

2022
01:52:58,360 --> 01:53:02,320
Speaker 5: then decided to quit the sport. And they now blame

2023
01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:06,600
Speaker 5: this on the fact that a trendswoman was allegedly responsible

2024
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:11,880
Speaker 5: for probably spiking the volleyball, which yes, is painful.

2025
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:14,799
Speaker 1: For playing sport the way that everyone else plays sport.

2026
01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, for trying to win.

2027
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:21,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, in a team of volleyball context. So yes, this

2028
01:53:21,200 --> 01:53:23,880
Speaker 5: was the first kind of of these political props that

2029
01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:27,400
Speaker 5: Trump brought along to kind of point out and demonstrate

2030
01:53:27,439 --> 01:53:29,799
Speaker 5: some of the things that he was talking about. Frankly,

2031
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:31,960
Speaker 5: it just seems like this person was not a very

2032
01:53:31,960 --> 01:53:36,160
Speaker 5: good volleyball player. But the next example Trump pointed to,

2033
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:40,360
Speaker 5: I think James can speak better on But Trump said

2034
01:53:40,360 --> 01:53:42,439
Speaker 5: that essentially there was quote unquote a man who beat

2035
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:45,040
Speaker 5: a woman in a race by five hours, to the

2036
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:46,959
Speaker 5: shock of the audience.

2037
01:53:47,400 --> 01:53:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So look, it was shocked listeners to hear that

2038
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:52,320
Speaker 3: most of what he said it's wrong. He directly referenced

2039
01:53:52,320 --> 01:53:54,920
Speaker 3: a friend of mine. He was referring to Austin Cillips,

2040
01:53:54,920 --> 01:53:57,560
Speaker 3: who is a woman. She's a trans woman, she's a

2041
01:53:57,640 --> 01:53:59,720
Speaker 3: very good cyclist. The reason she was doing the race,

2042
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:02,320
Speaker 3: which see Arizona trail race. It's an eight hundred mile

2043
01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:04,479
Speaker 3: ultra endurance race like I used to do these kind

2044
01:54:04,520 --> 01:54:06,840
Speaker 3: of things. The reason she was doing it is because

2045
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:10,679
Speaker 3: of a UCI Union Cyclic International that governing bodies stopped

2046
01:54:10,680 --> 01:54:13,080
Speaker 3: trans women competing, right, so she did these races which

2047
01:54:13,120 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 3: were not sanctioned by them. She did get the record.

2048
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:19,800
Speaker 3: The previous holder of the record was a CIS man.

2049
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:24,200
Speaker 3: That CIS man had previously beaten. A CIS woman got

2050
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:27,839
Speaker 3: Leo Wilcox. It's interesting that in this particular discipline, actually

2051
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:31,240
Speaker 3: like SIS, women have been doing as well as it's

2052
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:34,840
Speaker 3: not better than men like Lee. Wilcox owns nearly all

2053
01:54:34,880 --> 01:54:37,040
Speaker 3: the long distance records in the United States. She's a

2054
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:40,680
Speaker 3: phenomenal athlete. The idea that there's some inherent biological advantages

2055
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:44,520
Speaker 3: it's particularly nonsense in this sphere of cycling. But the

2056
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:46,440
Speaker 3: reason that she was five hours ahead is because this

2057
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:49,680
Speaker 3: race is eight hundred miles long, like those those records

2058
01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:52,200
Speaker 3: are broken by that kind of period, not all the time,

2059
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:55,400
Speaker 3: but when you have athletes like Austin coming from the

2060
01:54:55,520 --> 01:54:58,520
Speaker 3: higher paying areas of the sport into this which has

2061
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:01,120
Speaker 3: been a much less well a much smaller area of

2062
01:55:01,160 --> 01:55:03,480
Speaker 3: the sport, you're going to see these records getting broken,

2063
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:06,800
Speaker 3: and again she broke a record that was held by assistude.

2064
01:55:07,120 --> 01:55:07,480
Speaker 5: Crazy.

2065
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:09,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous.

2066
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:13,440
Speaker 1: I mean, like the level of like propaganda and lie.

2067
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 1: I mean, my mom watched the speech and she was like,

2068
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:20,160
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem possible. And I was like, because it's

2069
01:55:20,360 --> 01:55:21,680
Speaker 1: all bullshit.

2070
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:24,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just the second time he's picked on Austin

2071
01:55:24,960 --> 01:55:27,320
Speaker 3: and obviously it pisces me off. You could read her

2072
01:55:27,400 --> 01:55:29,120
Speaker 3: rop ed in The Guardian where she wrote about this

2073
01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:31,120
Speaker 3: the last time he cited her and his executive order,

2074
01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 3: and I would encourage you to so.

2075
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:38,400
Speaker 5: After this initial dive into the trans topic, Trump followed

2076
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:40,760
Speaker 5: up by talking about how egg prices are out of

2077
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:45,000
Speaker 5: control take a shot, which happened about fifteen minutes into

2078
01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:47,840
Speaker 5: the speech. But near the end of the speech, Trump

2079
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:52,040
Speaker 5: returned to the trends topic, pointing to the anti trans

2080
01:55:52,200 --> 01:55:57,520
Speaker 5: activist mom named January Little John No Comment whose kid

2081
01:55:57,800 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 5: secretly used they then pronouns at school, with Trump discussing

2082
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:05,760
Speaker 5: how wrong it is for schools to secretly transition students

2083
01:56:06,040 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 5: and like this actually just isn't true. Surprise, surprise, the

2084
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:11,920
Speaker 5: parents in this case knew that their kid wanted to

2085
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:14,240
Speaker 5: use a different name and pronouns at school, and actually

2086
01:56:14,240 --> 01:56:17,400
Speaker 5: were the ones to inform the school of this, according

2087
01:56:17,400 --> 01:56:21,600
Speaker 5: to school emails obtained by CNN. Not that this matters.

2088
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:23,760
Speaker 5: And I will say during this clip when when the

2089
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:26,760
Speaker 5: camera cuts towards his mom, like all of the people

2090
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:29,000
Speaker 5: that were used as political props that were cut to,

2091
01:56:29,440 --> 01:56:31,480
Speaker 5: they all had the most bizarre look on their face,

2092
01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:34,440
Speaker 5: like completely blank, like soulis not even like get really

2093
01:56:34,440 --> 01:56:37,080
Speaker 5: excited this this woman who who's you know, kind of

2094
01:56:37,080 --> 01:56:39,560
Speaker 5: a one of also the faces of like Florida's don't

2095
01:56:39,560 --> 01:56:43,000
Speaker 5: say gay bill just yeah, completely like blank expression because

2096
01:56:43,160 --> 01:56:45,400
Speaker 5: this thing that the president's talking about is just a

2097
01:56:45,440 --> 01:56:47,800
Speaker 5: flat out lie. And like you know it, you lost

2098
01:56:47,840 --> 01:56:50,920
Speaker 5: a federal lawsuit over this lie. But here you are

2099
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 5: on national TV now, the prop of the president.

2100
01:56:53,840 --> 01:56:56,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, on national TV, in front of both hanswers of Congress,

2101
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:00,000
Speaker 3: attacking your own kid, yep, for trying to be here.

2102
01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:01,720
Speaker 3: They want to be a subject on which you lost

2103
01:57:01,760 --> 01:57:02,320
Speaker 3: a lawsuit.

2104
01:57:02,600 --> 01:57:06,280
Speaker 5: Like and then Trump directly asked Congress to pass a

2105
01:57:06,280 --> 01:57:10,520
Speaker 5: bill banning trans health care for children, saying wokeness is gone,

2106
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:12,320
Speaker 5: our country will be woke.

2107
01:57:12,200 --> 01:57:15,320
Speaker 1: No longer whatever, such a loser.

2108
01:57:16,120 --> 01:57:21,520
Speaker 5: The next topic was Elon Musk's doge Trump essentially just

2109
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:25,880
Speaker 5: read out a list that mischaracterized aid programs or scientific

2110
01:57:25,880 --> 01:57:28,960
Speaker 5: research grants, talking about how Health and Human Services paid

2111
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:33,360
Speaker 5: for housing for displaced immigrants in the United States, money

2112
01:57:33,400 --> 01:57:38,560
Speaker 5: for Middle East Sesame Street for making mice transgender, and

2113
01:57:39,120 --> 01:57:45,320
Speaker 5: LGBTQ education in Africa, as well as DEI in Burma,

2114
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:49,040
Speaker 5: which I will now pivot to James again to fill

2115
01:57:49,040 --> 01:57:50,120
Speaker 5: in some context here.

2116
01:57:50,680 --> 01:57:53,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm aware of this scholarship because I'm aware

2117
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:56,240
Speaker 3: of the people within the Simpil disobedience movement who are

2118
01:57:56,240 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 3: talking to the State Department about it, and they begged

2119
01:57:58,360 --> 01:58:00,920
Speaker 3: for it not to be a DEI thing because they

2120
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:04,240
Speaker 3: could see this happening. Right. It's the Lincoln Scholarship program

2121
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:06,160
Speaker 3: our linked to it in the show notes. But it

2122
01:58:06,280 --> 01:58:09,400
Speaker 3: exists to empower people in Burma write with technical skills

2123
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:13,840
Speaker 3: and to rise up young leaders in Burma. And it's

2124
01:58:13,880 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 3: not a DEI program, but for some reason it was

2125
01:58:17,400 --> 01:58:21,280
Speaker 3: categorized as such. Right. It talks about respecting diversity because,

2126
01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:25,000
Speaker 3: as long term listeners will know Meanmar is an extremely

2127
01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:28,320
Speaker 3: diverse country, right, with more than fifty ethnic groups and

2128
01:58:28,400 --> 01:58:31,879
Speaker 3: hundreds of languages spoken, So that's why it talks about

2129
01:58:32,280 --> 01:58:37,000
Speaker 3: respecting diversity. This is one of the few things the

2130
01:58:37,120 --> 01:58:40,120
Speaker 3: United States has done for the people of Myanmar, after

2131
01:58:40,320 --> 01:58:42,920
Speaker 3: pumping up their economy, pumping up real estate, and then

2132
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:47,040
Speaker 3: doing nothing when the military seized power there and started

2133
01:58:47,040 --> 01:58:50,360
Speaker 3: to brutally repress the people. And the US is also

2134
01:58:50,400 --> 01:58:52,560
Speaker 3: I should add, at this point holding a billion dollars

2135
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:55,240
Speaker 3: of the Burmese people's money that it froze when the

2136
01:58:55,280 --> 01:58:57,520
Speaker 3: coup happened, and if it doesn't want to give them

2137
01:58:57,560 --> 01:59:00,720
Speaker 3: these scholarships, could give them back their money, but I'm

2138
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:03,200
Speaker 3: sure it won't. I know this one pisces me off

2139
01:59:03,200 --> 01:59:05,560
Speaker 3: in particular because obviously I'm very invested in the course

2140
01:59:05,640 --> 01:59:08,040
Speaker 3: of the people of mem and they are my friends.

2141
01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:11,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is very emblematic of the way Trump

2142
01:59:11,040 --> 01:59:13,600
Speaker 5: and Elon talked about a bunch of these aid programs.

2143
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 5: How like, you know, HIV prevention programs will be LGBTQ

2144
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:22,120
Speaker 5: usaid money, right, Like they find a way to mischaracterize

2145
01:59:22,120 --> 01:59:24,760
Speaker 5: it in the most like culture war way.

2146
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:28,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, talking about public health programs as circumcisions, right.

2147
01:59:28,240 --> 01:59:30,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly right. They'll try to find every single like

2148
01:59:30,480 --> 01:59:33,320
Speaker 5: health or education program and turn it into some like

2149
01:59:33,480 --> 01:59:37,160
Speaker 5: LGBTQ or DEI culture or issue. Trump claimed on stage

2150
01:59:37,160 --> 01:59:41,880
Speaker 5: that they've found hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud. Now.

2151
01:59:42,120 --> 01:59:45,240
Speaker 5: The doge website previously listed one hundred and five billion

2152
01:59:45,280 --> 01:59:48,800
Speaker 5: dollars in like found savings, but this very week the

2153
01:59:48,840 --> 01:59:52,160
Speaker 5: website scrubbed the five of the highest dollar value receipts

2154
01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 5: after journalists found massive errors in Elon's estimated count, and

2155
01:59:57,640 --> 02:00:00,720
Speaker 5: now it's while of receipts totals around it eight billion,

2156
02:00:01,160 --> 02:00:05,040
Speaker 5: though that might also be an overestimate according to some journalists.

2157
02:00:05,080 --> 02:00:05,520
Speaker 3: Amazing.

2158
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:08,880
Speaker 5: Trump also talked about alleged Social Security fraud, claiming that

2159
02:00:08,920 --> 02:00:11,919
Speaker 5: millions and millions of dead people are getting Social Security.

2160
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:13,760
Speaker 5: Like this just isn't true.

2161
02:00:13,840 --> 02:00:15,640
Speaker 1: The math is not mathing.

2162
02:00:16,120 --> 02:00:17,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, this has been their thing for a while, right,

2163
02:00:17,840 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 3: Dead people are voting. Dead people are getting Social Security.

2164
02:00:21,040 --> 02:00:21,280
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2165
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:25,200
Speaker 5: Trump's own Social Security administrator has like said as much.

2166
02:00:25,560 --> 02:00:28,240
Speaker 5: The super old people in the database simply don't have

2167
02:00:28,360 --> 02:00:31,320
Speaker 5: death and details logged, but they are not receiving payments.

2168
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:34,680
Speaker 5: There is improper payments in the Social Security system, usually

2169
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:38,200
Speaker 5: around one percent. Mostly that's over payments or entertainments to

2170
02:00:38,240 --> 02:00:40,640
Speaker 5: people who are actually alive, and there is a system

2171
02:00:40,720 --> 02:00:44,560
Speaker 5: for resolving those already in place, because social Security is

2172
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,320
Speaker 5: a pretty old system that we've had for quite a while.

2173
02:00:47,920 --> 02:00:50,280
Speaker 5: And like, I don't know, like Trump's skirted by a

2174
02:00:50,280 --> 02:00:53,080
Speaker 5: lot of economy issues, and the way he did so

2175
02:00:53,280 --> 02:00:56,480
Speaker 5: was just by repeatedly claiming that doge and like, cutting

2176
02:00:56,480 --> 02:00:59,480
Speaker 5: this fraud will magically fix the economy, right, Like, this

2177
02:00:59,560 --> 02:01:02,400
Speaker 5: is how he wants to frame this. Eggs are too

2178
02:01:02,480 --> 02:01:04,840
Speaker 5: much money, all of these things, and he has no

2179
02:01:04,920 --> 02:01:07,200
Speaker 5: actual solution to it. So instead, We're going to fix

2180
02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:09,920
Speaker 5: the economy through doge, through finding all this fraud, and

2181
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:13,640
Speaker 5: somehow we will locate this like pot of gold hidden

2182
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:16,800
Speaker 5: somewhere that will magically make our economy better. And this

2183
02:01:17,400 --> 02:01:19,960
Speaker 5: is his solution because he doesn't have any real solution.

2184
02:01:20,360 --> 02:01:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I should have pointed out that Lincoln Scholarships were

2185
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:25,120
Speaker 3: in fact a Trump They started in twenty nineteen, this

2186
02:01:25,280 --> 02:01:25,800
Speaker 3: round of them.

2187
02:01:25,960 --> 02:01:28,840
Speaker 5: So like, good job, cut of your own fraud, Donald.

2188
02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:31,920
Speaker 3: Do you know what else started in the first Trump era?

2189
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:37,680
Speaker 3: Garrison Advertising advertisements was I believe Trump's first executive order.

2190
02:01:37,760 --> 02:01:42,360
Speaker 3: He established the podcasting advertising industry, which you know supports

2191
02:01:42,400 --> 02:01:44,600
Speaker 3: us to this day today is the backbone of the

2192
02:01:44,640 --> 02:01:45,400
Speaker 3: American economy.

2193
02:01:45,480 --> 02:01:45,680
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2194
02:01:45,680 --> 02:01:48,640
Speaker 5: I mean that's actually unfortunately more true than it should be.

2195
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 3: You know, if anyone wants to buy any colloidal silver.

2196
02:01:52,120 --> 02:02:05,560
Speaker 5: No, no, no, okay, we are back on top of

2197
02:02:05,600 --> 02:02:09,160
Speaker 5: trains issues. The other, I would say most cited element

2198
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:12,680
Speaker 5: in this speech was the border. Trump reference to the

2199
02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 5: Lake and Riley Act, which requires DHS to detain illegal

2200
02:02:16,440 --> 02:02:20,040
Speaker 5: immigrants who've admitted to were charged with or convicted of

2201
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:24,160
Speaker 5: theft related crimes or any crime related to serious bodily injury.

2202
02:02:24,640 --> 02:02:27,960
Speaker 3: They're not necessarily illegal. They could just be undocumented people.

2203
02:02:28,080 --> 02:02:29,560
Speaker 3: They could be asylum seekers.

2204
02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:32,240
Speaker 5: Correct, correct, Yes, that is a good point.

2205
02:02:32,400 --> 02:02:35,680
Speaker 1: I just want to note it was incredible the amount

2206
02:02:35,680 --> 02:02:39,960
Speaker 1: of sad looking children and or family members that he

2207
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 1: had as his propaganda prop people.

2208
02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:44,720
Speaker 5: He had a lot of props for this speech, a.

2209
02:02:44,640 --> 02:02:47,480
Speaker 1: Lot of props for his speech. I had Fred watch

2210
02:02:47,480 --> 02:02:49,680
Speaker 1: with me, and she just kept going, how did he

2211
02:02:49,840 --> 02:02:51,640
Speaker 1: find like these people?

2212
02:02:51,960 --> 02:02:55,400
Speaker 5: These people have been figures of his campaign for years.

2213
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I explain that. I explained that. Yeah, he's brought

2214
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:03,120
Speaker 1: these same individual jewels out. As Garrett's mentioned over and

2215
02:03:03,200 --> 02:03:05,800
Speaker 1: over and over again, and use same thing.

2216
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:08,920
Speaker 5: With Fox News with one American News, like their entire

2217
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:11,040
Speaker 5: life revolves around being political props.

2218
02:03:11,240 --> 02:03:14,840
Speaker 1: It's an industry, right, there was nothing new here.

2219
02:03:15,520 --> 02:03:18,520
Speaker 5: Trump signed an executive order on stage to rename a

2220
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:23,840
Speaker 5: wildlife preserve. In this like anti immigrant propaganda move, he

2221
02:03:23,880 --> 02:03:27,080
Speaker 5: called for mandatory death penalty for anyone who kills a

2222
02:03:27,120 --> 02:03:29,680
Speaker 5: police officer and asked Congress to sign that into law,

2223
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:34,080
Speaker 5: which is mostly like an anti immigrant dog whistle, essentially

2224
02:03:34,160 --> 02:03:37,160
Speaker 5: trying to find a way to kill immigrants who are

2225
02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:39,440
Speaker 5: like charged with the death of a police officer.

2226
02:03:39,840 --> 02:03:42,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. They proposed the same thing for people smuggling drugs

2227
02:03:42,520 --> 02:03:44,840
Speaker 3: in the United States, like effectively charging them as if

2228
02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:46,600
Speaker 3: they were going to give all the drugs to one

2229
02:03:46,640 --> 02:03:49,600
Speaker 3: person to murder them and therefore giving them the death penalty.

2230
02:03:50,160 --> 02:03:52,600
Speaker 5: Now that he wants to label all these people terrorists

2231
02:03:52,760 --> 02:03:54,840
Speaker 5: or you know, has labeled these groups terrorists, it gives

2232
02:03:54,840 --> 02:03:57,200
Speaker 5: the like the government a lot more leeway to do

2233
02:03:57,240 --> 02:03:57,800
Speaker 5: stuff like that.

2234
02:03:57,920 --> 02:04:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, proving membership of those groups would be

2235
02:04:01,000 --> 02:04:01,320
Speaker 3: a chat.

2236
02:04:01,400 --> 02:04:04,560
Speaker 5: Sure, I mean, so is proving membership to Antifa.

2237
02:04:04,400 --> 02:04:06,640
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. Yeah, we haven't seen how they can. Well,

2238
02:04:06,920 --> 02:04:08,720
Speaker 3: we've somewhat seen how they're going to try in the

2239
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:12,320
Speaker 3: latter case, but none in the former. I guess we'll see,

2240
02:04:12,400 --> 02:04:14,160
Speaker 3: I'm sure at some point in the next year or two.

2241
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:16,800
Speaker 5: But like Trump said that, like previously, America has quote

2242
02:04:16,840 --> 02:04:21,320
Speaker 5: unquote buckled under migrant occupation, but now we are achieving

2243
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:25,120
Speaker 5: the great liberation of America. That's the sort of language

2244
02:04:25,160 --> 02:04:26,320
Speaker 5: he was using for this section.

2245
02:04:26,600 --> 02:04:30,160
Speaker 3: And he said how they rule from mental asylums and prisons.

2246
02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:33,120
Speaker 5: Very standard campaign rhetoric that he's used for years now.

2247
02:04:33,480 --> 02:04:35,320
Speaker 3: If you're new to this podcast, you can go back.

2248
02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:37,680
Speaker 3: You can search the word hacumber or border, and you

2249
02:04:37,720 --> 02:04:40,440
Speaker 3: can listen to interviews with probably hundreds of migrants. You

2250
02:04:40,440 --> 02:04:43,000
Speaker 3: can listen to my title forty two series, you can

2251
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:45,320
Speaker 3: listen to my Darien series, and you can joy for

2252
02:04:45,360 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 3: yourself if these people are criminal or bad or mentally unwell.

2253
02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:52,600
Speaker 5: The economy had a very minimal focus compared to border

2254
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:56,040
Speaker 5: or trans issues. He really skirted over the tariffs thing

2255
02:04:56,040 --> 02:05:00,000
Speaker 5: as fast as possible, briefly talked about the federal funder

2256
02:05:00,160 --> 02:05:03,880
Speaker 5: Freeze bragged about terminating the green new scam, something that

2257
02:05:03,920 --> 02:05:07,600
Speaker 5: has never existed. Yeah, talking about withdrawing from the Preparis

2258
02:05:07,600 --> 02:05:10,920
Speaker 5: climate Accords again, as well as the corrupt World Health

2259
02:05:11,040 --> 02:05:15,800
Speaker 5: Organization and the and the anti American un War Crime Council.

2260
02:05:16,480 --> 02:05:22,280
Speaker 5: Very cool, bragged about ending climate restrictions, you know, drill, baby, drill,

2261
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:26,320
Speaker 5: going after rare earth minerals, talked about no tax on

2262
02:05:26,400 --> 02:05:31,120
Speaker 5: tips over time and benefits for seniors, and then briefly

2263
02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:36,160
Speaker 5: discussed that on April second, he will be enacting reciprocal

2264
02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:39,200
Speaker 5: tariffs just completely across the board for all nations. And

2265
02:05:39,320 --> 02:05:41,320
Speaker 5: he did warn farmers there is going to be an

2266
02:05:41,360 --> 02:05:46,520
Speaker 5: adjustment period. Quote, there will be a little disturbance unquote.

2267
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:49,400
Speaker 3: Certainly when you adjust to not having a job that

2268
02:05:49,440 --> 02:05:51,040
Speaker 3: pays you any money anymore.

2269
02:05:50,640 --> 02:05:54,200
Speaker 5: Crashing the economy will have a bit of an adjustment period.

2270
02:05:54,440 --> 02:05:56,440
Speaker 5: It will be a bit of a little disturbance.

2271
02:05:56,680 --> 02:05:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just like he just kept going through

2272
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:08,440
Speaker 1: these obvious, ridiculous claims and making Trump side comment stupidity,

2273
02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:13,600
Speaker 1: like calling the Middle East a bad neighborhood and.

2274
02:06:14,000 --> 02:06:14,920
Speaker 5: That's my street joke.

2275
02:06:15,160 --> 02:06:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just incredible. And James, our colleague Molly Conger

2276
02:06:20,600 --> 02:06:21,800
Speaker 1: had a good point.

2277
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:24,640
Speaker 3: She did, Yeah, of her many good points. Trump said

2278
02:06:24,640 --> 02:06:27,520
Speaker 3: that people had never heard of Lesotho. At the same time,

2279
02:06:27,600 --> 02:06:30,200
Speaker 3: pronouncing it in a way that one would only know

2280
02:06:30,240 --> 02:06:32,320
Speaker 3: if one had heard it pronounced rather than seen it

2281
02:06:32,320 --> 02:06:35,360
Speaker 3: written on the page. Very very funny, south Ownd. He

2282
02:06:35,360 --> 02:06:38,720
Speaker 3: also said something about Liberia like implying like I would

2283
02:06:38,760 --> 02:06:41,120
Speaker 3: encourage people to understand the history of Liberia if they

2284
02:06:41,200 --> 02:06:43,680
Speaker 3: think the US does an Liberia a thing or two.

2285
02:06:44,680 --> 02:06:48,000
Speaker 5: One of the last focuses of the speech was national security,

2286
02:06:48,240 --> 02:06:54,080
Speaker 5: promising a Golden Dome missile defense system, which Trump has

2287
02:06:54,120 --> 02:06:57,839
Speaker 5: previously talked about at previous twenty twenty four campaign events.

2288
02:06:57,840 --> 02:07:01,840
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with gold, sessed with gold with dome.

2289
02:07:07,200 --> 02:07:09,480
Speaker 3: Garrison didn't even crack for those listening.

2290
02:07:09,920 --> 02:07:14,400
Speaker 5: Once again, got him now once again. He announced that

2291
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:18,640
Speaker 5: his administration will be reclaiming the Panama Canal, saying we

2292
02:07:18,680 --> 02:07:21,840
Speaker 5: have Mark Rubio in charge. Good luck Marco. If something

2293
02:07:21,880 --> 02:07:24,400
Speaker 5: goes wrong, we know who to play right.

2294
02:07:25,880 --> 02:07:26,320
Speaker 3: Amazing.

2295
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:31,040
Speaker 5: His comments on Greenland were specifically odd, saying Greenland, we

2296
02:07:31,160 --> 02:07:34,840
Speaker 5: strongly support your right to determine your own future, and

2297
02:07:35,120 --> 02:07:38,080
Speaker 5: if you choose, we welcome you into the United States

2298
02:07:38,080 --> 02:07:42,520
Speaker 5: of America. But the full quote about Greenland was very odd.

2299
02:07:42,880 --> 02:07:46,000
Speaker 5: He said, quote, we need Greenland for national security and

2300
02:07:46,200 --> 02:07:51,640
Speaker 5: even international security, so weird, and we're working with everybody

2301
02:07:51,720 --> 02:07:54,480
Speaker 5: involved to try to get it. But we need it

2302
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:58,160
Speaker 5: really for international for world security, and I think we're

2303
02:07:58,160 --> 02:08:01,560
Speaker 5: gonna get it. One way or another, We're gonna get it.

2304
02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:05,200
Speaker 5: It's a very small population, but a very very large

2305
02:08:05,240 --> 02:08:10,280
Speaker 5: piece of land and very very important for military security.

2306
02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:15,120
Speaker 5: Unquote okay, yeah, very odd, very odd comments.

2307
02:08:14,800 --> 02:08:16,160
Speaker 3: Whole collection of English language.

2308
02:08:16,160 --> 02:08:18,800
Speaker 5: Would he is He is continuing to say that one

2309
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:21,960
Speaker 5: way or another he will take Greenland. I think his

2310
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:25,760
Speaker 5: focus on it for national security is particularly interesting. I

2311
02:08:25,760 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 5: think this has something to do with trying to make

2312
02:08:28,040 --> 02:08:31,160
Speaker 5: the US and Russia these like two massive like world

2313
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:34,680
Speaker 5: powers that both have like you know, Arctic land at

2314
02:08:34,680 --> 02:08:38,440
Speaker 5: their disposal, considering climate change or you know, a variety

2315
02:08:38,440 --> 02:08:40,960
Speaker 5: of issues. But I think that this does move towards

2316
02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:45,640
Speaker 5: this like quasi like Douganism of like this like multipolar

2317
02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:48,440
Speaker 5: world that that Putin certainly wants, and Trump is kind

2318
02:08:48,440 --> 02:08:51,040
Speaker 5: of signaling that, you know, through the influence of Bannon,

2319
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:54,160
Speaker 5: he's also moving towards with like Putin and trumpet like

2320
02:08:54,200 --> 02:08:56,879
Speaker 5: you know, the two people who control the world. Speaking

2321
02:08:56,920 --> 02:08:59,839
Speaker 5: of Trump didn't talk about receiving a letter from President's

2322
02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:03,880
Speaker 5: Lensky asking to return to the neotiating table, and bragged

2323
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:07,800
Speaker 5: about freeing another weed smoking teacher in a Russian jail,

2324
02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:13,200
Speaker 5: returning him home to America. And oddly enough, Trump met

2325
02:09:13,240 --> 02:09:16,480
Speaker 5: with the mother of this teacher in Butler, Pennsylvania right

2326
02:09:16,480 --> 02:09:19,800
Speaker 5: before he got shot, which led him to point towards

2327
02:09:19,840 --> 02:09:24,280
Speaker 5: the comparatour family, again, pronouncing it in a completely new

2328
02:09:24,320 --> 02:09:27,000
Speaker 5: and different way. All of the members of the family

2329
02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:32,160
Speaker 5: seemed very not thrilled to be there, completely blank expressions, quite.

2330
02:09:32,000 --> 02:09:33,600
Speaker 1: Odd, extremely weird.

2331
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:36,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is where he ended the speech, was

2332
02:09:36,480 --> 02:09:39,400
Speaker 5: talking about, you know, getting shot, and then kind of

2333
02:09:39,440 --> 02:09:43,600
Speaker 5: went on a very long, ten minute, almost gptesque ramble

2334
02:09:43,920 --> 02:09:47,040
Speaker 5: about like America. I didn't take any notes on it

2335
02:09:47,080 --> 02:09:49,120
Speaker 5: because it just sounded like word salad. But there is

2336
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:50,760
Speaker 5: a few other mislanious things from the speech I do

2337
02:09:50,760 --> 02:09:53,120
Speaker 5: want to mention before we close out. Trump bragged about

2338
02:09:53,120 --> 02:09:56,920
Speaker 5: stopping all government censorship and having brought back free speech

2339
02:09:57,000 --> 02:10:01,600
Speaker 5: to America, saying it's back, which is you know, a

2340
02:10:01,800 --> 02:10:05,880
Speaker 5: slightly humorous amidst reports of grants being pulled for using

2341
02:10:05,960 --> 02:10:09,480
Speaker 5: quote unquote the bad words, wrong words, as well as

2342
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:15,040
Speaker 5: a truth social post a truth made earlier today Wednesday,

2343
02:10:16,080 --> 02:10:19,360
Speaker 5: saying all federal funding will stop for any college, school,

2344
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:24,280
Speaker 5: or university that allows illegal protests. Agitators will be imprisoned

2345
02:10:24,560 --> 02:10:27,600
Speaker 5: or permanently sent back to the country from which they came.

2346
02:10:27,920 --> 02:10:31,800
Speaker 5: American students will be permanently expelled or, depending on the crime, arrested.

2347
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:36,000
Speaker 5: No masks. So in one moment, you can celebrate bringing

2348
02:10:36,040 --> 02:10:38,000
Speaker 5: back free speech, and in the other you can call

2349
02:10:38,040 --> 02:10:42,000
Speaker 5: for deporting people who protest or imprisoning students are protesting

2350
02:10:42,160 --> 02:10:46,440
Speaker 5: on their own university campuses. Very very typical Trump doubles

2351
02:10:46,480 --> 02:10:47,400
Speaker 5: speak type stuff.

2352
02:10:48,120 --> 02:10:52,839
Speaker 1: He talked about bringing the people back to the office

2353
02:10:52,920 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 1: like these are all like normal Trump.

2354
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:58,200
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and these are things that have happened already.

2355
02:10:58,440 --> 02:10:58,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2356
02:10:58,840 --> 02:11:02,280
Speaker 5: Most of the half of this beach was celebrating things

2357
02:11:02,280 --> 02:11:05,160
Speaker 5: that he's already done. The other half was like asking

2358
02:11:05,200 --> 02:11:08,320
Speaker 5: Congress to help him do more things Mixed in with

2359
02:11:08,360 --> 02:11:12,280
Speaker 5: these weird propaganda moves like making this thirteen year old

2360
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:16,840
Speaker 5: brain cancer survivor in honorary Secret Service agent and admitting

2361
02:11:17,240 --> 02:11:21,520
Speaker 5: this very square looking teenager into West Point. Who by

2362
02:11:21,560 --> 02:11:25,720
Speaker 5: the way, this this teenager has the most cop phenotype

2363
02:11:25,720 --> 02:11:30,320
Speaker 5: I've ever seen before. It's crazy, It's I was shocked, like, whoa,

2364
02:11:30,520 --> 02:11:34,960
Speaker 5: they found him the cop phenotype. There he is, which

2365
02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:37,560
Speaker 5: was which is two? Two more of these weird props.

2366
02:11:37,920 --> 02:11:40,880
Speaker 3: It's like in the cave in Plato, everything else is

2367
02:11:40,920 --> 02:11:42,960
Speaker 3: just a reflection of this cop kid. Every other coult

2368
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:43,240
Speaker 3: it was.

2369
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:46,200
Speaker 5: It's so odd because like Trump spent this speech talking

2370
02:11:46,200 --> 02:11:48,480
Speaker 5: about how, you know, like we're bringing back a merit

2371
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:51,520
Speaker 5: based hiring. We have we have quote ended the tyranny

2372
02:11:51,560 --> 02:11:55,360
Speaker 5: of dei across government, private sector, and military, as he

2373
02:11:55,400 --> 02:11:58,560
Speaker 5: then just did two DEI hires on stage. But you

2374
02:11:58,560 --> 02:12:01,640
Speaker 5: know whom I who am I to say? So that's

2375
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:03,240
Speaker 5: kind of all I had to say on the Trump speech.

2376
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:06,720
Speaker 5: Right now, I will briefly, very briefly talk about the

2377
02:12:06,760 --> 02:12:10,480
Speaker 5: Democratic response. The Democratic response was done by Senator Slatkin

2378
02:12:10,520 --> 02:12:13,720
Speaker 5: from Michigan, who opened by saying America wants change, but

2379
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:16,480
Speaker 5: there's a responsible way to make change in an irresponsible way,

2380
02:12:16,840 --> 02:12:19,640
Speaker 5: trying to paint DOGE as like this very irresponsible and

2381
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 5: brash way to achieve efficiencies, something that we all obviously

2382
02:12:23,600 --> 02:12:26,720
Speaker 5: want the government to move more towards. She warned about

2383
02:12:26,920 --> 02:12:30,000
Speaker 5: how Trump's actions may result in our recession, warned about

2384
02:12:30,080 --> 02:12:33,840
Speaker 5: losing Social Security Medicare and VA benefits, quoted Musk, who

2385
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:37,160
Speaker 5: recently called social Security the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time,

2386
02:12:37,520 --> 02:12:40,280
Speaker 5: and attacked Musk and the twenty year old DOGE members

2387
02:12:40,560 --> 02:12:43,240
Speaker 5: for using their own servers to access your sensitive data.

2388
02:12:44,480 --> 02:12:48,360
Speaker 5: Sluckin spent a lot of the rebuttal praising Ronald Reagan.

2389
02:12:48,760 --> 02:12:52,320
Speaker 5: Odd for a Democrat. I would say, I don't know why, strange,

2390
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:55,360
Speaker 5: don't know why you as the opposition party, are continuing

2391
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:59,600
Speaker 5: to base your politics on praising Bush and Reagan. Very

2392
02:12:59,640 --> 02:13:03,680
Speaker 5: cool position party bros, very fun stuff. She also said,

2393
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:07,640
Speaker 5: I've lived and worked in many countries. I've seen democracies

2394
02:13:07,640 --> 02:13:10,120
Speaker 5: flicker out. I've seen what life is like when a

2395
02:13:10,160 --> 02:13:13,000
Speaker 5: government is rigged. Like yeah, I bet you have the

2396
02:13:13,240 --> 02:13:19,680
Speaker 5: former CIA agent. She also mentioned doom scrolling, so that

2397
02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:22,560
Speaker 5: that really shows how the Democrats have the finger on

2398
02:13:22,600 --> 02:13:25,920
Speaker 5: the pulse here when when doom scrolling is mentioned as

2399
02:13:25,960 --> 02:13:28,840
Speaker 5: something not to do, saying, instead, you should hold your

2400
02:13:28,880 --> 02:13:32,040
Speaker 5: elected officials, including me, accountable, Watch how they're voting, go

2401
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:35,240
Speaker 5: to town halls, demand they take action and organize. Pick

2402
02:13:35,280 --> 02:13:38,040
Speaker 5: up one issue you're passionate about and engage. Doom Scrolling

2403
02:13:38,040 --> 02:13:40,880
Speaker 5: doesn't count. Join a group that cares about your issue

2404
02:13:40,880 --> 02:13:43,960
Speaker 5: and act. If you can't find one, start one. And

2405
02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:46,280
Speaker 5: that was that was the bulk of the ten minute

2406
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:50,200
Speaker 5: Democratic response. Oh boy, what a what a what a

2407
02:13:50,240 --> 02:13:52,400
Speaker 5: fun what a fun day in American politics?

2408
02:13:52,440 --> 02:13:53,600
Speaker 3: That was Yep.

2409
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,760
Speaker 5: Any final thoughts, James Sophie.

2410
02:13:56,560 --> 02:14:00,200
Speaker 1: Like this speech. This episode is running long. Yeah, so

2411
02:14:00,480 --> 02:14:03,160
Speaker 1: I rarely don't have any final thoughts other than.

2412
02:14:04,560 --> 02:14:10,240
Speaker 5: Bad, bad, bad, bad bad. The Democrats are unwilling to

2413
02:14:10,240 --> 02:14:13,360
Speaker 5: do anything actually serious. Once again, the attempts that quot

2414
02:14:13,400 --> 02:14:16,640
Speaker 5: unquote fact checking the speech are also incredibly pathetic to

2415
02:14:16,680 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 5: look at.

2416
02:14:18,120 --> 02:14:18,520
Speaker 3: Truly.

2417
02:14:18,720 --> 02:14:20,920
Speaker 5: There's this New York Times fact check which I will

2418
02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:22,240
Speaker 5: close on just because it made me and the rest

2419
02:14:22,280 --> 02:14:24,960
Speaker 5: of our group chat very upset, which outlined this long

2420
02:14:25,000 --> 02:14:27,640
Speaker 5: paragraph from Trump saying over the past four years, twenty

2421
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:29,920
Speaker 5: one million people poured into the United States, many of

2422
02:14:29,960 --> 02:14:33,160
Speaker 5: whom were murderers, human traffickers, gang members, and other criminals

2423
02:14:33,160 --> 02:14:35,680
Speaker 5: from the streets of dangerous cities and all throughout the world.

2424
02:14:35,840 --> 02:14:39,040
Speaker 5: Because of Joe Biden's insane and very dangerous open border policies,

2425
02:14:39,200 --> 02:14:41,720
Speaker 5: they are now strongly embedded in our country. But we

2426
02:14:41,760 --> 02:14:44,640
Speaker 5: are getting them out and getting them out fast and

2427
02:14:44,880 --> 02:14:49,240
Speaker 5: the fact check for this very like false claim is

2428
02:14:49,640 --> 02:14:53,320
Speaker 5: quote fast is a relative term. This statement is misleading.

2429
02:14:54,360 --> 02:14:57,960
Speaker 5: It's just oh, it only focuses on the ending sentence

2430
02:14:58,080 --> 02:15:00,840
Speaker 5: saying that we're getting these immigrants out and we're getting

2431
02:15:00,880 --> 02:15:05,880
Speaker 5: them out fast. It ignores calling many of these twenty

2432
02:15:05,880 --> 02:15:09,480
Speaker 5: one million people human traffickers, gang members, and criminals. Does

2433
02:15:09,560 --> 02:15:12,200
Speaker 5: not say that we never have had open border policy.

2434
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:15,600
Speaker 5: Like it's crazy, even like the liberal fact checking is

2435
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:19,160
Speaker 5: completely pathetic and toothless, and like fact ticking doesn't work,

2436
02:15:19,160 --> 02:15:22,160
Speaker 5: it's not useful anyway. That's why I'm not spending this

2437
02:15:22,160 --> 02:15:25,440
Speaker 5: whole episode fact checking Trump's claims. But the fact that

2438
02:15:25,480 --> 02:15:30,440
Speaker 5: you're gonna parrot this insane anti immigrant rhetoric and only

2439
02:15:30,520 --> 02:15:33,160
Speaker 5: fact chuck Trump saying that we're going to get these

2440
02:15:33,160 --> 02:15:36,040
Speaker 5: immigrants out of our country fast, calling it a relative term.

2441
02:15:36,320 --> 02:15:39,640
Speaker 5: And this is the reason that this statement is misleading.

2442
02:15:39,840 --> 02:15:43,720
Speaker 5: This completely shows how Democrats like completely lost any momentum

2443
02:15:43,760 --> 02:15:46,440
Speaker 5: on the immigration topic. Same thing with the trans topic.

2444
02:15:46,600 --> 02:15:50,400
Speaker 5: They're actually unwilling to push back on changing popular sentiment

2445
02:15:50,480 --> 02:15:54,400
Speaker 5: because they're automatically agreeing with the actual conceit. Yeah, anyway,

2446
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:57,520
Speaker 5: that got me upset, and then I watched Tiawei and

2447
02:15:57,520 --> 02:15:59,760
Speaker 5: then went to that. So there we go.

2448
02:15:59,840 --> 02:16:01,440
Speaker 3: Do you go ya yaie? Garrison?

2449
02:16:01,760 --> 02:16:29,320
Speaker 5: Anyways, this is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our

2450
02:16:29,320 --> 02:16:32,000
Speaker 5: weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the

2451
02:16:32,080 --> 02:16:34,720
Speaker 5: crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison

2452
02:16:34,800 --> 02:16:39,560
Speaker 5: Davis today. I'm joined by Bauford Evans, Nia Wong, James Stokes,

2453
02:16:39,720 --> 02:16:40,720
Speaker 5: and Sophie Lichterman.

2454
02:16:40,920 --> 02:16:44,680
Speaker 2: Tragically, we all have ed. All right, I got it

2455
02:16:44,720 --> 02:16:46,440
Speaker 2: out of the way. We can continue the episode.

2456
02:16:46,480 --> 02:16:46,640
Speaker 3: Now.

2457
02:16:46,680 --> 02:16:49,720
Speaker 5: This episode, we are covering the week of February twenty

2458
02:16:49,760 --> 02:16:54,880
Speaker 5: seven to March five, Number Go Down, Public Humiliation ritual

2459
02:16:54,920 --> 02:16:58,599
Speaker 5: of Vladimir Zelensky, and the age of US global supremacy

2460
02:16:58,760 --> 02:16:59,240
Speaker 5: is over.

2461
02:16:59,400 --> 02:17:02,359
Speaker 11: Welcome to the end of the American Empire. It sucks

2462
02:17:02,480 --> 02:17:03,760
Speaker 11: way more than I thought it would.

2463
02:17:03,800 --> 02:17:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh huh, well, I mean, look, some of us

2464
02:17:06,920 --> 02:17:08,119
Speaker 2: have been saying this.

2465
02:17:10,240 --> 02:17:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just tragedy that is fast, and then it's

2466
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:15,280
Speaker 3: whatever the fuck is happening now?

2467
02:17:15,400 --> 02:17:19,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're we have crossed the tragedy farce horizon.

2468
02:17:19,280 --> 02:17:20,160
Speaker 3: We're well beyond.

2469
02:17:20,800 --> 02:17:23,720
Speaker 2: We're well beyond anything marks could of anticipating.

2470
02:17:23,800 --> 02:17:25,760
Speaker 3: We're going we don't need foss.

2471
02:17:27,240 --> 02:17:29,400
Speaker 5: Like I am upset about how Landy and everything is

2472
02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:31,600
Speaker 5: becoming Like I feel like you have to be almost

2473
02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:35,280
Speaker 5: forced into being an accelerationist now, like there is no

2474
02:17:35,480 --> 02:17:36,480
Speaker 5: other way out.

2475
02:17:36,800 --> 02:17:38,840
Speaker 3: Did you watch the Democrats last night, Garrison.

2476
02:17:39,160 --> 02:17:42,280
Speaker 5: It's like this non consensual acceleration as well. Yeah, yeah that,

2477
02:17:42,400 --> 02:17:45,960
Speaker 5: like people spent years trying to resist this. Accelerationists push

2478
02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:49,000
Speaker 5: that even now I'm seeing like analysts like embrace, like,

2479
02:17:49,080 --> 02:17:51,840
Speaker 5: I guess we have to be accelerationists now, which is

2480
02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:52,720
Speaker 5: very bizarre to see.

2481
02:17:52,760 --> 02:17:56,080
Speaker 11: Yeah, I've been saying there is no more ideology called accelerationism.

2482
02:17:56,080 --> 02:17:58,199
Speaker 11: There is just acceleration of what you do about it.

2483
02:17:58,320 --> 02:18:02,760
Speaker 11: So funhole, we've gotten there into Yeah, speaking of let's

2484
02:18:02,760 --> 02:18:06,800
Speaker 11: start with talking about Ukraine, a place which accelerated, and

2485
02:18:06,840 --> 02:18:10,400
Speaker 11: that Oval office meeting that happened last Friday. That was

2486
02:18:10,440 --> 02:18:11,480
Speaker 11: a little bit odd.

2487
02:18:11,360 --> 02:18:11,760
Speaker 4: Wasn't it.

2488
02:18:11,800 --> 02:18:14,760
Speaker 1: Folks Hearson say thank you, thank you.

2489
02:18:15,080 --> 02:18:18,280
Speaker 5: Yes, I realize I've been under your employee for for

2490
02:18:18,320 --> 02:18:20,160
Speaker 5: four years now. I've said thank you many.

2491
02:18:19,920 --> 02:18:23,039
Speaker 1: Times each of you. Thank me. No, I'm kidding Jesus Christ.

2492
02:18:23,200 --> 02:18:25,680
Speaker 2: Wow, So Sophie has gone mad with power?

2493
02:18:26,160 --> 02:18:28,440
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, I'm going to go call the EU because

2494
02:18:28,840 --> 02:18:29,800
Speaker 3: Sophie has asked.

2495
02:18:29,560 --> 02:18:33,039
Speaker 5: Me, yes, So I don't know. I'm sure people saw

2496
02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:35,080
Speaker 5: like a two minute clip or something. I watched the

2497
02:18:35,080 --> 02:18:38,600
Speaker 5: full ten minute section, which is much more crazy. Yeah,

2498
02:18:38,640 --> 02:18:42,080
Speaker 5: And like in Trump's push to get like this Ceaspire deal,

2499
02:18:42,600 --> 02:18:47,880
Speaker 5: Zelensky's hesitation has been because Putin has broken multiple Ceasepire deals,

2500
02:18:48,160 --> 02:18:50,119
Speaker 5: so how can we be sure that he will respect

2501
02:18:50,160 --> 02:18:52,280
Speaker 5: this one? And that's kind of what jump starts this

2502
02:18:52,400 --> 02:18:58,279
Speaker 5: extra combative exchange between Trump, Zelinsky, and eventually little boy JD.

2503
02:18:58,400 --> 02:19:02,679
Speaker 5: I don't know, Robert and James, you your war understanders.

2504
02:19:03,240 --> 02:19:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what it says when I go into my hobe.

2505
02:19:07,120 --> 02:19:12,400
Speaker 2: The increasing story, and this affects Ukraine, but is not

2506
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:15,240
Speaker 2: just limited to it. The story of the next several

2507
02:19:15,320 --> 02:19:18,800
Speaker 2: years is going to be the mass rearmament of Europe

2508
02:19:19,200 --> 02:19:22,720
Speaker 2: and almost certain nuclear proliferation. France, who has I think

2509
02:19:22,720 --> 02:19:26,160
Speaker 2: two hundred and ninety five nuclear warheads and extremely advanced

2510
02:19:26,160 --> 02:19:29,160
Speaker 2: first strike capability as well as a first strike doctrine

2511
02:19:29,879 --> 02:19:32,640
Speaker 2: is under Macron has just made a statement that he's

2512
02:19:32,680 --> 02:19:35,360
Speaker 2: willing to have France be the nuclear shield for the

2513
02:19:35,360 --> 02:19:38,880
Speaker 2: rest of Europe. The UK also has enough nukes to

2514
02:19:38,959 --> 02:19:42,879
Speaker 2: kill way more people than actually live there. Unfortunately, their

2515
02:19:42,959 --> 02:19:45,959
Speaker 2: nuclear defense system and reaction system is very tied into

2516
02:19:46,000 --> 02:19:48,240
Speaker 2: the US one. I expect you will see them sever

2517
02:19:48,400 --> 02:19:51,520
Speaker 2: it from the United States as the United States becomes

2518
02:19:51,520 --> 02:19:55,119
Speaker 2: more and more of a geopolitical adversary to England and

2519
02:19:55,160 --> 02:19:57,920
Speaker 2: to everywhere else in Europe. I think you are going

2520
02:19:57,959 --> 02:20:00,959
Speaker 2: to see more smaller states in Europe get the bomb.

2521
02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:04,600
Speaker 2: I think in general, I'm shocked if in four years

2522
02:20:04,600 --> 02:20:07,280
Speaker 2: there's not at least another four or five states that

2523
02:20:07,440 --> 02:20:12,160
Speaker 2: have gained access to the bomb. Yeah, because the overarching

2524
02:20:12,200 --> 02:20:15,680
Speaker 2: international lesson from Ukraine has never ever, ever, ever, ever

2525
02:20:15,920 --> 02:20:18,720
Speaker 2: ever give up a nuke and get one at all costs.

2526
02:20:19,760 --> 02:20:23,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, fantasy the European national anthem whenobe because if it's

2527
02:20:23,640 --> 02:20:27,960
Speaker 3: not love, it's the bomb that will bring us together. Yep, Garrison,

2528
02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:30,600
Speaker 3: great one. I don't like that that.

2529
02:20:31,360 --> 02:20:34,120
Speaker 2: I'm not saying this because it's it's good, but it's

2530
02:20:34,160 --> 02:20:37,440
Speaker 2: also literally like if I was in charge of European security,

2531
02:20:37,680 --> 02:20:39,959
Speaker 2: that's where you had priority would be let's get as

2532
02:20:39,959 --> 02:20:42,200
Speaker 2: many fucking nukes out here as we can.

2533
02:20:43,240 --> 02:20:46,640
Speaker 3: I think we should say that, like this is how

2534
02:20:46,760 --> 02:20:50,720
Speaker 3: US diplomacy happens. This sort of shouting at and humiliating

2535
02:20:50,879 --> 02:20:53,880
Speaker 3: non US leaders is what the US does. The difference

2536
02:20:53,879 --> 02:20:55,480
Speaker 3: here is that Trump did it in front of the

2537
02:20:55,640 --> 02:20:59,080
Speaker 3: entire White House, press corps and TV cameras, Yes, in

2538
02:20:59,120 --> 02:21:01,640
Speaker 3: the Oval Office, for everyone to see. Yeah, and it

2539
02:21:01,680 --> 02:21:04,400
Speaker 3: doesn't give Zelenski a place to back down. Right, Like,

2540
02:21:04,440 --> 02:21:06,280
Speaker 3: he's a leader of a country that is at war.

2541
02:21:06,760 --> 02:21:10,040
Speaker 3: He needs to show strength and like certainly sort of

2542
02:21:10,040 --> 02:21:12,320
Speaker 3: with the current understanding of leadership, he needs to show strength,

2543
02:21:12,360 --> 02:21:14,680
Speaker 3: and to show strength, he doesn't have many places to

2544
02:21:14,720 --> 02:21:16,879
Speaker 3: go when he's been humiliated like that, right.

2545
02:21:16,920 --> 02:21:19,160
Speaker 5: Well, and like you know, Trump was yelling about you know,

2546
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:22,360
Speaker 5: world War three and then and then and advanced China thing.

2547
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:25,280
Speaker 5: He's particularly incoherent with his with his little like thank

2548
02:21:25,320 --> 02:21:27,120
Speaker 5: you speech. And I think Robert, I think I think

2549
02:21:27,160 --> 02:21:31,840
Speaker 5: you pointed out to me earlier, like why Vance jumped

2550
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:34,520
Speaker 5: in on this the way he did, in like a

2551
02:21:34,600 --> 02:21:38,240
Speaker 5: way to establish dominance when Vance and Trump have very

2552
02:21:38,280 --> 02:21:41,080
Speaker 5: little cards to play because this is the guy who

2553
02:21:41,120 --> 02:21:44,400
Speaker 5: has been like at war for years now, and like

2554
02:21:44,800 --> 02:21:48,200
Speaker 5: they need to feel superior to that. And that's why

2555
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:50,760
Speaker 5: it's a public humiliation ritual, because that's the only method

2556
02:21:50,760 --> 02:21:52,199
Speaker 5: they had yet right now.

2557
02:21:52,600 --> 02:21:56,320
Speaker 2: No, because there's nothing really like they play act at masculinity,

2558
02:21:56,480 --> 02:22:01,640
Speaker 2: and their fan especially Trump's base, really like feeds into that.

2559
02:22:02,320 --> 02:22:05,640
Speaker 2: But they definitely also have that deep secure insecurity that

2560
02:22:05,720 --> 02:22:08,720
Speaker 2: because of aspects of our culture and media. I think

2561
02:22:08,800 --> 02:22:11,400
Speaker 2: most men who have never been to war have a

2562
02:22:11,440 --> 02:22:13,840
Speaker 2: little bit of that. I don't think it's a natural

2563
02:22:13,879 --> 02:22:15,640
Speaker 2: thing for men, but I think it's a natural thing

2564
02:22:15,720 --> 02:22:18,879
Speaker 2: in our society. I think it is extremely common, verging

2565
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:22,039
Speaker 2: on universal. I went to war in part because of

2566
02:22:22,080 --> 02:22:26,160
Speaker 2: that derangement. And by the way, war doesn't do anything

2567
02:22:26,200 --> 02:22:28,039
Speaker 2: to make you better. Yeah, but what it does do,

2568
02:22:28,280 --> 02:22:31,600
Speaker 2: what it has done for Zelensky and why he acted

2569
02:22:31,600 --> 02:22:34,440
Speaker 2: the way he is, is that like he's he's literally

2570
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:36,720
Speaker 2: been in the position of his entire family and him

2571
02:22:36,720 --> 02:22:39,560
Speaker 2: having Ak forty seven shoved into their hands because a

2572
02:22:39,640 --> 02:22:43,680
Speaker 2: Russian kill team was in the city gunning for him

2573
02:22:43,720 --> 02:22:47,640
Speaker 2: and his family as bombs fell all around. Like, yeah,

2574
02:22:47,680 --> 02:22:51,640
Speaker 2: he's just he's I think he just has too much pride. Sorry,

2575
02:22:51,640 --> 02:22:53,800
Speaker 2: pride's even the wrong thing He's learned over the course

2576
02:22:53,800 --> 02:22:56,360
Speaker 2: of fighting this war. When you are up against a

2577
02:22:56,400 --> 02:22:59,800
Speaker 2: strong man, you can't back down.

2578
02:23:00,800 --> 02:23:03,360
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, you just keep getting pushed back further and

2579
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:04,320
Speaker 3: further if you do that.

2580
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:06,640
Speaker 2: Because he wouldn't have gotten anything if he had like

2581
02:23:06,720 --> 02:23:08,760
Speaker 2: sat there and been nice and let them make fun

2582
02:23:08,760 --> 02:23:11,640
Speaker 2: of him, and like, like the the ending would be

2583
02:23:11,720 --> 02:23:14,480
Speaker 2: the same. They'd made up their minds prior to that meeting.

2584
02:23:14,400 --> 02:23:17,439
Speaker 3: Right, and like the one of the things that Zelenski

2585
02:23:17,480 --> 02:23:19,280
Speaker 3: has going for him, and like there's a lot that

2586
02:23:19,280 --> 02:23:21,400
Speaker 3: he doesn't have going from. He's not a coward, and

2587
02:23:21,480 --> 02:23:24,320
Speaker 3: like no people have noticed that he's not a coward,

2588
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:26,400
Speaker 3: and that has brought him some of the support and

2589
02:23:26,560 --> 02:23:29,720
Speaker 3: like it has allowed him to remain in that position

2590
02:23:29,760 --> 02:23:32,840
Speaker 3: of leadership a relatively uncontested right. They haven't been able

2591
02:23:32,879 --> 02:23:35,120
Speaker 3: to have elections. This is something that the Ukrainian opposition

2592
02:23:35,360 --> 02:23:37,720
Speaker 3: have also kind of consented to. It's not like he's

2593
02:23:37,760 --> 02:23:40,560
Speaker 3: he's being a dictator here, as Trump is alleged, but

2594
02:23:40,640 --> 02:23:45,560
Speaker 3: like his personal bravery and willingness to confront these strong

2595
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:49,320
Speaker 3: men is something that like people draw strength from in Ukraine,

2596
02:23:49,320 --> 02:23:50,560
Speaker 3: and he can't afford to let that go.

2597
02:23:51,080 --> 02:23:54,520
Speaker 5: He actually was fairly submissive in this exchange. He was

2598
02:23:54,640 --> 02:23:57,560
Speaker 5: letting Trump talk way over him. Zelenski did not raise

2599
02:23:57,600 --> 02:24:00,400
Speaker 5: his voice. I don't. I frankly, I don't understand how

2600
02:24:00,480 --> 02:24:03,080
Speaker 5: people have even deluded themselves into thinking this makes this

2601
02:24:03,240 --> 02:24:05,680
Speaker 5: like Zelenski look bad or like he wasn't proper.

2602
02:24:06,280 --> 02:24:08,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, he handled it like a grown up would handle it,

2603
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:11,119
Speaker 3: Like he tried to point out what you're saying it's wrong.

2604
02:24:11,400 --> 02:24:14,480
Speaker 5: This was clearly like a coordinated trap from like the

2605
02:24:14,640 --> 02:24:17,200
Speaker 5: entire White House team, from like the press corps. Yes,

2606
02:24:17,280 --> 02:24:19,360
Speaker 5: like talking about like why he doesn't wear a suit,

2607
02:24:19,800 --> 02:24:22,680
Speaker 5: and like someone like Rubio, like a neocon that has

2608
02:24:22,720 --> 02:24:25,120
Speaker 5: more of this like geopolitics focus, Like he was like

2609
02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:27,840
Speaker 5: literally like syncing into the couch as this was happening,

2610
02:24:27,879 --> 02:24:30,039
Speaker 5: Like like Rubio was not thrilled at this.

2611
02:24:30,400 --> 02:24:34,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, because Rubio he has no personal pride

2612
02:24:34,760 --> 02:24:37,440
Speaker 2: or backbone, so he is willing to try and remake

2613
02:24:37,520 --> 02:24:40,280
Speaker 2: himself as a Trumper. But in his actual heart and soul,

2614
02:24:40,320 --> 02:24:41,839
Speaker 2: he's a Reagan Republican.

2615
02:24:41,520 --> 02:24:44,879
Speaker 5: He totally sure, or maybe at least a Bush Republican.

2616
02:24:44,959 --> 02:24:47,640
Speaker 5: Definitely Bush. And yeah, I don't know. Like Zelenski was

2617
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:49,960
Speaker 5: literally kicked out of the White House on Friday, he's

2618
02:24:50,000 --> 02:24:52,800
Speaker 5: now trying to find a way back into the negotiating table.

2619
02:24:53,240 --> 02:24:56,600
Speaker 5: On Monday, the United States suspended all military aid to

2620
02:24:56,680 --> 02:25:01,360
Speaker 5: Ukraine after Trump has continued to inflate the numbers in

2621
02:25:01,680 --> 02:25:03,400
Speaker 5: regards to the amount of military aid we have sent

2622
02:25:03,440 --> 02:25:06,039
Speaker 5: to Ukraine, often by a magnitude of two hundred billion

2623
02:25:06,080 --> 02:25:08,400
Speaker 5: dollars and I don't like this was one of the

2624
02:25:08,400 --> 02:25:10,200
Speaker 5: first things that me and Robert noticed at the RNC,

2625
02:25:10,480 --> 02:25:14,520
Speaker 5: like how much Ukraine was like a top issue for them,

2626
02:25:14,560 --> 02:25:17,200
Speaker 5: Like people wouldn't shut up about Ukraine. And it took

2627
02:25:17,240 --> 02:25:19,119
Speaker 5: us a few days to like acclimate, be like okay,

2628
02:25:19,160 --> 02:25:21,199
Speaker 5: like why are they talking about it in this way?

2629
02:25:21,680 --> 02:25:24,560
Speaker 5: Like it was. It was very odd and Robert did

2630
02:25:24,600 --> 02:25:27,360
Speaker 5: a deep dive on that last year with front of

2631
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:30,040
Speaker 5: the pod Rudy Giuliani Garrison.

2632
02:25:30,080 --> 02:25:31,800
Speaker 2: I just wanted to update you have been talking with

2633
02:25:31,920 --> 02:25:34,640
Speaker 2: Rudy about the album that you and I wanted to

2634
02:25:34,720 --> 02:25:36,800
Speaker 2: drop with him, and he is on board, so we

2635
02:25:36,840 --> 02:25:38,400
Speaker 2: will be moving forward with that this spring.

2636
02:25:38,560 --> 02:25:41,520
Speaker 5: That's exciting a little taste for all you listeners. And

2637
02:25:41,560 --> 02:25:43,360
Speaker 5: I like this. This is very much a part, in

2638
02:25:43,440 --> 02:25:46,640
Speaker 5: my mind, a part of Bannon's push for like this

2639
02:25:46,800 --> 02:25:51,119
Speaker 5: quasi douganism, this idea of a multipope polar world of

2640
02:25:51,160 --> 02:25:54,520
Speaker 5: Trump and putin with putin expanding power into Europe, while

2641
02:25:54,520 --> 02:25:56,560
Speaker 5: Trump tries to see his control over more parts of

2642
02:25:56,600 --> 02:25:59,800
Speaker 5: North and Central America, you know, taking the Panama Canal

2643
02:26:00,160 --> 02:26:04,560
Speaker 5: eventually Canada and Greenland, you know, and like both people

2644
02:26:04,800 --> 02:26:07,400
Speaker 5: want to you know, more more Arctic land that will

2645
02:26:07,400 --> 02:26:10,400
Speaker 5: be useful considering climate change. And Russia already has their

2646
02:26:10,440 --> 02:26:13,680
Speaker 5: fair share. So that's why, you know, Greenland is so

2647
02:26:14,080 --> 02:26:17,640
Speaker 5: essential for national security, like Trump talked about endlessly in

2648
02:26:17,680 --> 02:26:20,879
Speaker 5: his joint session speech, I guess, uh miya, do you

2649
02:26:20,879 --> 02:26:23,120
Speaker 5: want to add something about this mineral thing before we

2650
02:26:23,160 --> 02:26:23,680
Speaker 5: go to break?

2651
02:26:24,200 --> 02:26:26,160
Speaker 11: Yeah, So I think I think one of the important

2652
02:26:26,160 --> 02:26:28,480
Speaker 11: things here is that this is this is the definitive

2653
02:26:28,520 --> 02:26:31,000
Speaker 11: break point, Like this is the moment that people are

2654
02:26:31,000 --> 02:26:33,640
Speaker 11: going to point to and they look back on the

2655
02:26:33,680 --> 02:26:36,720
Speaker 11: moment the old American empire died and that empire, you know,

2656
02:26:36,760 --> 02:26:40,280
Speaker 11: the sort of post World War two international order thing.

2657
02:26:40,400 --> 02:26:41,920
Speaker 11: Right the way, the way, the way the US maintained

2658
02:26:41,920 --> 02:26:44,840
Speaker 11: is ueopolitical and economic power was by a network and

2659
02:26:44,879 --> 02:26:47,200
Speaker 11: system of alliances with a bunch of the you know,

2660
02:26:47,240 --> 02:26:49,760
Speaker 11: with their allies and sort of in places like Japan,

2661
02:26:50,040 --> 02:26:53,080
Speaker 11: but also you know, across Western Europe, they maintained this

2662
02:26:53,160 --> 02:26:55,560
Speaker 11: series of economic and political alliances that was able to

2663
02:26:56,000 --> 02:26:58,800
Speaker 11: win the Cold War. I you know, make make the

2664
02:26:58,920 --> 02:27:02,000
Speaker 11: US like the world's low and superpower. But in order

2665
02:27:02,000 --> 02:27:04,959
Speaker 11: for it to function, the US has to like maintain

2666
02:27:05,120 --> 02:27:08,040
Speaker 11: the alliance system even as it's doing imperial power protection

2667
02:27:08,120 --> 02:27:09,160
Speaker 11: and use its allies.

2668
02:27:10,000 --> 02:27:13,520
Speaker 2: Well, and like the US is power primarily has always

2669
02:27:13,520 --> 02:27:15,560
Speaker 2: come from the fact that like or at least in

2670
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:18,760
Speaker 2: this century, has been from the fact that we are

2671
02:27:18,760 --> 02:27:20,680
Speaker 2: the center of the global economy.

2672
02:27:21,040 --> 02:27:23,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, right, And and the second part of it has

2673
02:27:23,920 --> 02:27:27,320
Speaker 11: been has been its ability to wield power in international institutions, right, yeah,

2674
02:27:27,520 --> 02:27:29,440
Speaker 11: you know, the US seizing control of the IMF and

2675
02:27:29,480 --> 02:27:32,000
Speaker 11: the World Bank, and and you know, using sort of

2676
02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:34,960
Speaker 11: trade like trade doctrine to to sort of empower itself.

2677
02:27:35,520 --> 02:27:38,560
Speaker 11: And this is all fucking gone. The US is alienating

2678
02:27:38,680 --> 02:27:41,160
Speaker 11: like everyone in the fucking globe basically except for except

2679
02:27:41,160 --> 02:27:44,720
Speaker 11: for Russia. And you know, now we're entering this really

2680
02:27:45,280 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 11: kind of Argentina maybe well well well well we'll see,

2681
02:27:50,000 --> 02:27:53,480
Speaker 11: we'll see how long that government holds just like okay, yeah,

2682
02:27:53,520 --> 02:27:56,680
Speaker 11: but you know, like and the thing that it's pivoting

2683
02:27:56,720 --> 02:27:59,160
Speaker 11: to now, right is the stuff that used to be

2684
02:27:59,840 --> 02:28:03,039
Speaker 11: the there'd be a sort of like coalition thing, and

2685
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:05,760
Speaker 11: and American corporations would do this stuff behind the scenes.

2686
02:28:05,879 --> 02:28:08,520
Speaker 11: Is now just unbelievably explicit. The US is just straight

2687
02:28:08,600 --> 02:28:13,560
Speaker 11: up openly doing resource colonialism, like they're straight up they're

2688
02:28:13,640 --> 02:28:17,959
Speaker 11: demanding that Ukraine exchange its mineral resources for protection, like

2689
02:28:18,200 --> 02:28:19,720
Speaker 11: it is straight up a protection racket.

2690
02:28:19,800 --> 02:28:20,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2691
02:28:20,040 --> 02:28:21,840
Speaker 5: The proposed way that it works.

2692
02:28:22,120 --> 02:28:24,360
Speaker 11: Is that there's going to be like a quote unquote

2693
02:28:24,400 --> 02:28:28,400
Speaker 11: development fund controlled by the US and Ukraine like jointly.

2694
02:28:28,480 --> 02:28:30,560
Speaker 11: But I mean it's it's just gonna control by the US.

2695
02:28:30,720 --> 02:28:32,360
Speaker 11: I don't know why people are pretending that Ukraine is

2696
02:28:32,400 --> 02:28:34,320
Speaker 11: going to like have a say in this. I'm going

2697
02:28:34,400 --> 02:28:36,360
Speaker 11: to read from the proposed agreement. We don't know what

2698
02:28:36,360 --> 02:28:38,520
Speaker 11: the text of the final agreement is going to be.

2699
02:28:39,200 --> 02:28:42,960
Speaker 11: Zelenski has recently expressed that he's willing to sign it,

2700
02:28:43,000 --> 02:28:44,480
Speaker 11: but we don't know exactly what's going to look like.

2701
02:28:44,520 --> 02:28:47,039
Speaker 11: Here's here's the quote for the document that we had.

2702
02:28:47,800 --> 02:28:50,400
Speaker 11: The Government of Ukraine will contribute to the fund fifty

2703
02:28:50,440 --> 02:28:53,520
Speaker 11: percent of all revenues earned from the future modestization of

2704
02:28:53,600 --> 02:28:58,240
Speaker 11: all relevant Ukrainian government owned natural resource assets, whether owned

2705
02:28:58,280 --> 02:29:02,720
Speaker 11: directly or indirectly by the Ukrainian governments defined as deposits

2706
02:29:02,760 --> 02:29:06,760
Speaker 11: of minerals, hydrocarbons, oil, natural gas and other extractable minerals,

2707
02:29:07,040 --> 02:29:11,240
Speaker 11: and other infrastructure relevant to natural resource assets such as

2708
02:29:11,280 --> 02:29:15,480
Speaker 11: liquefied natural gas terminals and port infrastructure, as agreed by

2709
02:29:15,480 --> 02:29:18,480
Speaker 11: both participants, as maybe further described in the fund agreements.

2710
02:29:19,560 --> 02:29:22,400
Speaker 11: Another quote, the funds investment process will be designed so

2711
02:29:22,480 --> 02:29:25,039
Speaker 11: as to invest in projects in Ukraine and intract investments

2712
02:29:25,040 --> 02:29:29,560
Speaker 11: to increase the development, processing, and monetization of all public

2713
02:29:29,840 --> 02:29:34,520
Speaker 11: and private Ukrainian assets, including but not limited to, deposits

2714
02:29:34,520 --> 02:29:38,359
Speaker 11: of minerals, hydrocarbons, oil, natural gas, et cetera, et cetera, ports,

2715
02:29:38,400 --> 02:29:41,640
Speaker 11: and state owned enterprises, as may be further described in

2716
02:29:41,680 --> 02:29:44,120
Speaker 11: the fund agreements. So what they're talking about here is

2717
02:29:44,400 --> 02:29:48,000
Speaker 11: not just like seizing control of Ukrainian mineral reasearchs. They're

2718
02:29:48,000 --> 02:29:50,840
Speaker 11: talking about like privatizing the Ukrainian state and selling it

2719
02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:53,000
Speaker 11: off and taking the profits from that. They are talking

2720
02:29:53,040 --> 02:29:56,640
Speaker 11: about seizing ports, which I have seen no media coverage of.

2721
02:29:56,760 --> 02:29:58,520
Speaker 5: I do not know why it is any agreement. You

2722
02:29:58,520 --> 02:29:59,360
Speaker 5: can just read it there.

2723
02:30:00,280 --> 02:30:02,880
Speaker 11: I I, notably on the show, am not like I

2724
02:30:03,280 --> 02:30:04,920
Speaker 11: am well known as not a China supporter. But I

2725
02:30:04,959 --> 02:30:07,520
Speaker 11: deeply remember for five years everyone losing their fucking minds

2726
02:30:07,520 --> 02:30:10,080
Speaker 11: about China doing this exact same fucking thing with port

2727
02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:12,920
Speaker 11: lease agreements, and they was just doing it now. And

2728
02:30:13,080 --> 02:30:15,200
Speaker 11: this is just what the new international order is going

2729
02:30:15,240 --> 02:30:17,800
Speaker 11: to be. It's the US just very very openly instead

2730
02:30:17,800 --> 02:30:20,400
Speaker 11: of instead of working through allies, instead of working through

2731
02:30:20,440 --> 02:30:22,680
Speaker 11: sort of like reshime shamed operations. It's just the US

2732
02:30:22,680 --> 02:30:24,360
Speaker 11: going to be going like, okay, like you are all

2733
02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:27,080
Speaker 11: going to die unless you give us all your money.

2734
02:30:27,320 --> 02:30:30,199
Speaker 5: Speaking of giving us all your money.

2735
02:30:30,560 --> 02:30:33,560
Speaker 3: Wow, hell yeah, that's right, magnificent.

2736
02:30:34,000 --> 02:30:34,560
Speaker 1: That was art.

2737
02:30:34,760 --> 02:30:51,240
Speaker 5: Here's some ads. All right, all right, we are back, Robert.

2738
02:30:51,280 --> 02:30:52,520
Speaker 5: You want to talk about Syria?

2739
02:30:52,760 --> 02:30:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Syria. I hardly know you.

2740
02:30:54,480 --> 02:30:58,080
Speaker 2: Okay. Anyway, I was sent to a document by my

2741
02:30:58,160 --> 02:31:03,039
Speaker 2: good friend Joey Aub from the Fire This Time podcast

2742
02:31:03,520 --> 02:31:07,240
Speaker 2: if sorry, The Fire in These Times podcast. Joey's great.

2743
02:31:07,320 --> 02:31:09,680
Speaker 2: It's a document that the US is sending out to

2744
02:31:09,920 --> 02:31:12,039
Speaker 2: NGOs around the world. This one was sent to an

2745
02:31:12,240 --> 02:31:15,880
Speaker 2: NGO doing humanitarian work in Syria, and it's basically, you

2746
02:31:15,959 --> 02:31:18,240
Speaker 2: have to fill this out in order to have a

2747
02:31:18,360 --> 02:31:22,240
Speaker 2: chance of retaining the funding that has been paused right now, right,

2748
02:31:22,400 --> 02:31:25,000
Speaker 2: So it's part of the USAID pause. If you want

2749
02:31:25,040 --> 02:31:27,560
Speaker 2: to get that money, you have to fill this out

2750
02:31:27,600 --> 02:31:29,560
Speaker 2: and basically prove that you are in line with the

2751
02:31:29,600 --> 02:31:32,440
Speaker 2: new executive orders and policies of the United States government.

2752
02:31:32,720 --> 02:31:34,440
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of questions on here that you have

2753
02:31:34,520 --> 02:31:36,120
Speaker 2: to answer. A lot of them are yes, no, and

2754
02:31:36,160 --> 02:31:38,080
Speaker 2: some many of them are just like normal shit.

2755
02:31:38,240 --> 02:31:38,440
Speaker 4: Right.

2756
02:31:38,600 --> 02:31:41,920
Speaker 2: Does your organization have a current risk management frameworker policy?

2757
02:31:42,000 --> 02:31:42,200
Speaker 4: Yes?

2758
02:31:42,240 --> 02:31:42,280
Speaker 3: No?

2759
02:31:42,440 --> 02:31:45,560
Speaker 2: If yes, please describe the framework or policy right, not

2760
02:31:46,360 --> 02:31:49,120
Speaker 2: extreme or anything like that. You have to say that

2761
02:31:49,160 --> 02:31:52,840
Speaker 2: you're not working with cartels, narco human traffickers. But then

2762
02:31:52,879 --> 02:31:55,400
Speaker 2: you have to say you have not quote organized groups

2763
02:31:55,400 --> 02:31:59,119
Speaker 2: that promote mass migration in the last ten years, which

2764
02:31:59,200 --> 02:32:02,520
Speaker 2: is interesting, and when you're dealing with like war torn

2765
02:32:02,560 --> 02:32:06,200
Speaker 2: areas that are helping like refugees escape is clearly going

2766
02:32:06,240 --> 02:32:08,039
Speaker 2: to be damaging to a lot of NGOs that have

2767
02:32:08,080 --> 02:32:09,879
Speaker 2: done very good work to save people.

2768
02:32:10,080 --> 02:32:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. No.

2769
02:32:10,760 --> 02:32:13,360
Speaker 2: Number five is does your organization encourage free speech and

2770
02:32:13,480 --> 02:32:16,359
Speaker 2: encourage open debate and free sharing of information?

2771
02:32:16,879 --> 02:32:17,080
Speaker 4: Yes?

2772
02:32:17,200 --> 02:32:17,240
Speaker 3: No?

2773
02:32:18,160 --> 02:32:20,520
Speaker 2: And then right under that, does your organization have a

2774
02:32:20,560 --> 02:32:24,120
Speaker 2: clear policy of prohibiting any collaboratoration, funding, or support for

2775
02:32:24,280 --> 02:32:28,800
Speaker 2: entities that advocate or implement policies contrary to US government interests.

2776
02:32:29,120 --> 02:32:33,920
Speaker 2: So free speech unless it's not stuff that we like, right, Yeah,

2777
02:32:34,080 --> 02:32:35,959
Speaker 2: that kind of always been the way to be fair.

2778
02:32:36,040 --> 02:32:38,000
Speaker 2: Now kind of the most I mean not kind of

2779
02:32:38,120 --> 02:32:41,800
Speaker 2: by a wide margin. The most fucked up thing about

2780
02:32:41,840 --> 02:32:44,840
Speaker 2: this is that it then goes down again right after

2781
02:32:44,879 --> 02:32:47,359
Speaker 2: the free speech thing. First off, I should note number eleven,

2782
02:32:47,440 --> 02:32:50,160
Speaker 2: after the free speech question, can you confirm your organization

2783
02:32:50,240 --> 02:32:53,199
Speaker 2: does not work with entities that associated with communist, socialist

2784
02:32:53,320 --> 02:32:58,520
Speaker 2: or totalitarian parties? And then below that is a basically

2785
02:32:58,520 --> 02:33:00,800
Speaker 2: a question of like whether or not, and they frame

2786
02:33:00,840 --> 02:33:03,440
Speaker 2: it as like, does this project take appropriate measures to

2787
02:33:03,480 --> 02:33:06,760
Speaker 2: protect women and to defend against gender ideology? Is to

2788
02:33:06,800 --> 02:33:09,600
Speaker 2: find in the below executive order, and then it links

2789
02:33:09,600 --> 02:33:12,560
Speaker 2: to the Defending Women from gender ideology extremism and Restoring

2790
02:33:12,600 --> 02:33:16,480
Speaker 2: Biological Truth to the Federal Government executive Order. And then

2791
02:33:16,640 --> 02:33:19,320
Speaker 2: it asks does the project take appropriate measures to protect

2792
02:33:19,400 --> 02:33:22,920
Speaker 2: children and links to the same executive order. So it

2793
02:33:23,000 --> 02:33:27,120
Speaker 2: is basically saying your organization has to support effectively like

2794
02:33:27,200 --> 02:33:31,680
Speaker 2: transphobic policies in Syria in order to continue to get

2795
02:33:31,840 --> 02:33:34,720
Speaker 2: US money, right, and the fact that that is numer

2796
02:33:34,720 --> 02:33:38,879
Speaker 2: one a requirement for aid organizations receiving aid worldwide now

2797
02:33:39,480 --> 02:33:43,360
Speaker 2: is deeply harmful. And it's also just like Syria was

2798
02:33:43,400 --> 02:33:49,280
Speaker 2: already transphobic, like the Syrian governments not really pro trans

2799
02:33:50,000 --> 02:33:52,600
Speaker 2: but the fact that this is just being like, this

2800
02:33:52,640 --> 02:33:54,680
Speaker 2: is going to be like across the board, Yes, everywhere,

2801
02:33:54,680 --> 02:33:57,520
Speaker 2: This is going to be everywhere in the world. If

2802
02:33:57,560 --> 02:34:00,000
Speaker 2: we want to get US funds to save human life,

2803
02:34:00,320 --> 02:34:03,560
Speaker 2: to stop the spread of diseases, you have to officially

2804
02:34:03,680 --> 02:34:08,760
Speaker 2: embrace transphobic policies. That's that's the stance of the United

2805
02:34:08,760 --> 02:34:12,360
Speaker 2: States government that that matters more than stopping the spread

2806
02:34:12,360 --> 02:34:13,520
Speaker 2: of a bowlet in the congo.

2807
02:34:14,080 --> 02:34:17,040
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, this is like particularly worrying for you know,

2808
02:34:17,240 --> 02:34:20,480
Speaker 5: HIV preventative measures across the world as well. Most of

2809
02:34:20,520 --> 02:34:23,640
Speaker 5: the language that's used there has been heavily targeted. We're

2810
02:34:23,760 --> 02:34:25,840
Speaker 5: just gonna get a whole bunch of people sick and

2811
02:34:25,879 --> 02:34:28,199
Speaker 5: die yep, because of these actions.

2812
02:34:28,640 --> 02:34:30,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, until it starts getting people sick and dead in

2813
02:34:30,800 --> 02:34:33,680
Speaker 3: this country. But we probably won't stop then.

2814
02:34:33,879 --> 02:34:37,560
Speaker 5: Probably not. James, I p pivot to you on our

2815
02:34:38,040 --> 02:34:39,800
Speaker 5: semi regular border update.

2816
02:34:40,200 --> 02:34:42,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's me the border guy. I was down at

2817
02:34:42,840 --> 02:34:45,800
Speaker 3: the United States border this weekend, the one with Mexico

2818
02:34:45,840 --> 02:34:48,199
Speaker 3: and not the Canada one. And when I got back

2819
02:34:48,280 --> 02:34:51,199
Speaker 3: from the border, I saw an announcement from the Pentagon

2820
02:34:51,560 --> 02:34:55,359
Speaker 3: which announced the deployment of a strike A Brigade combat

2821
02:34:55,400 --> 02:34:59,680
Speaker 3: team and an aviation battalion. So what's the strike A

2822
02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:02,400
Speaker 3: Brigade Combat team, you ask. Normally they are like four

2823
02:35:02,840 --> 02:35:05,480
Speaker 3: four hundred soldiers. In this case are sending twenty four

2824
02:35:05,560 --> 02:35:08,040
Speaker 3: hundred soldiers from the fourth Infantry Division based in four

2825
02:35:08,160 --> 02:35:11,640
Speaker 3: Cartson in Colorado. Strike up gad combat teams are based

2826
02:35:11,680 --> 02:35:18,320
Speaker 3: around strikers. Strikers. They are armored fighting vehicles with eight wheels.

2827
02:35:18,560 --> 02:35:19,280
Speaker 3: They're pretty cool.

2828
02:35:19,480 --> 02:35:19,720
Speaker 4: H Yeah.

2829
02:35:20,240 --> 02:35:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've hung out in a couple.

2830
02:35:22,480 --> 02:35:25,720
Speaker 2: A lot of them have fully automatic grenade lodgers. Yeah,

2831
02:35:25,760 --> 02:35:28,480
Speaker 2: they have decent air conditioning, you know, big.

2832
02:35:28,360 --> 02:35:32,720
Speaker 3: Vehicle outside, small vehicle inside, as with all military vehicles.

2833
02:35:33,000 --> 02:35:36,280
Speaker 3: Great when you're six foot three like me, but famously

2834
02:35:37,040 --> 02:35:40,879
Speaker 3: not really something you can use for like policing the border.

2835
02:35:41,000 --> 02:35:43,440
Speaker 2: No, Honestly, a lot of arguments as to whether or

2836
02:35:43,520 --> 02:35:46,480
Speaker 2: not they were good at their stated role in warfare.

2837
02:35:47,680 --> 02:35:50,720
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Bradley's have been having to

2838
02:35:50,720 --> 02:35:53,640
Speaker 3: come back in Ukraine. The striker is not so much.

2839
02:35:54,160 --> 02:35:57,440
Speaker 3: What they're not good at is moving through incredibly rugged

2840
02:35:57,480 --> 02:35:59,720
Speaker 3: mountainous train that stuff. Where I was on Saturday.

2841
02:36:00,160 --> 02:36:02,920
Speaker 2: This is something Chuds don't understand, because a popular thing

2842
02:36:02,959 --> 02:36:06,240
Speaker 2: among Chuds is to take their Toyota Tundras or their

2843
02:36:06,320 --> 02:36:09,000
Speaker 2: f one to fifties or their Jeep Gladiators and send

2844
02:36:09,040 --> 02:36:11,240
Speaker 2: them down to this company in Florida that adds an

2845
02:36:11,280 --> 02:36:13,520
Speaker 2: extra axle in two more wheels so that they have

2846
02:36:13,640 --> 02:36:16,760
Speaker 2: six wheels, because they think it makes truck go better.

2847
02:36:19,480 --> 02:36:23,400
Speaker 3: Why it ruins everything. It's a horrible wet thing to

2848
02:36:23,480 --> 02:36:25,920
Speaker 3: do to a tract. I know the people at Jeep

2849
02:36:25,920 --> 02:36:28,200
Speaker 3: have actually been thinking about how to make Jeep that

2850
02:36:28,560 --> 02:36:32,039
Speaker 3: for quite a while. Actually very amusingly. The place I

2851
02:36:32,280 --> 02:36:35,360
Speaker 3: was down at the border this weekend, there's a very

2852
02:36:35,440 --> 02:36:37,160
Speaker 3: rugged road that you drive down and then you get

2853
02:36:37,160 --> 02:36:38,959
Speaker 3: off and you hike. And I remember a few years

2854
02:36:38,959 --> 02:36:43,240
Speaker 3: ago a guy fresh minty fresh tid hundress straight off

2855
02:36:43,240 --> 02:36:47,360
Speaker 3: the lot. And I've just negotiated this in a nineteen

2856
02:36:47,440 --> 02:36:50,800
Speaker 3: eighties Erra Toyot to pick up with my friends standing

2857
02:36:50,800 --> 02:36:53,280
Speaker 3: in the back to counterbalance and add weight as we go.

2858
02:36:54,120 --> 02:36:56,240
Speaker 3: I offered the spot for this guy he says, no,

2859
02:36:56,320 --> 02:36:59,920
Speaker 3: he doesn't need it because it's a tid immediately destroys. Excellent.

2860
02:37:00,280 --> 02:37:02,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, very beautiful. Love to see.

2861
02:37:02,720 --> 02:37:05,520
Speaker 5: These strikers are doing pretty good as well, we're hearing.

2862
02:37:05,760 --> 02:37:08,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're excited to see the strike. Perfect perfect

2863
02:37:08,160 --> 02:37:12,520
Speaker 3: vehicle for the terrade. The other vehicles that we're going

2864
02:37:12,600 --> 02:37:15,520
Speaker 3: to see are UH sixty black Hawks and Shnooks from

2865
02:37:15,520 --> 02:37:19,080
Speaker 3: the General Support Aviation Battalion who are deploying alongside them.

2866
02:37:19,600 --> 02:37:23,080
Speaker 3: They are also about eleven hundred soldiers from sustainment units, right,

2867
02:37:23,120 --> 02:37:27,960
Speaker 3: people who facilitate the in this case, infantry and aviation deployment.

2868
02:37:28,760 --> 02:37:32,840
Speaker 3: There's some public affairs soldiers, there's people with logistics, people

2869
02:37:32,840 --> 02:37:36,040
Speaker 3: who are going to help make this deployment happen. Right

2870
02:37:36,320 --> 02:37:39,640
Speaker 3: In the press release, NORTHCOM that's the North American Command

2871
02:37:39,640 --> 02:37:42,640
Speaker 3: of the United States Military, New United States Army said

2872
02:37:43,120 --> 02:37:45,320
Speaker 3: to us, carried out by a second striker. A gade

2873
02:37:45,320 --> 02:37:51,320
Speaker 3: combat team will include detection and monitoring, administrative support, transportation support, warehousing,

2874
02:37:51,400 --> 02:37:55,840
Speaker 3: logistics support, vehicle maintenance, and engineering support. Personnel will not

2875
02:37:55,959 --> 02:38:00,160
Speaker 3: conduct or be involved in interdiction or deportation operations. This

2876
02:38:00,240 --> 02:38:04,640
Speaker 3: is the the Possycommatatis thing. Right, that they're not directly

2877
02:38:04,680 --> 02:38:06,200
Speaker 3: going to be doing cop stuff. It's going to be

2878
02:38:06,200 --> 02:38:10,120
Speaker 3: helping border patrol do cop stuff supposedly, But this is

2879
02:38:10,560 --> 02:38:13,000
Speaker 3: still very different to the previous deployment. We saw that

2880
02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:18,360
Speaker 3: the previous deployments were of like engineers and military police. Right,

2881
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:20,879
Speaker 3: So the engineers and the marine cor engineers, what they

2882
02:38:20,920 --> 02:38:22,280
Speaker 3: seem to do is get up every day and put

2883
02:38:22,360 --> 02:38:25,000
Speaker 3: razor wire on fence and then wait for someone to

2884
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:27,400
Speaker 3: take photographs and put razor war on fence again, right, And.

2885
02:38:27,440 --> 02:38:31,000
Speaker 2: Marines love putting razor wire up. It's not the job

2886
02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:32,440
Speaker 2: that everyone hates the most.

2887
02:38:33,840 --> 02:38:36,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, everyone le's razor wire. Handling razor wire is

2888
02:38:36,879 --> 02:38:37,640
Speaker 3: famously fine.

2889
02:38:37,760 --> 02:38:38,120
Speaker 8: Easy.

2890
02:38:38,480 --> 02:38:39,800
Speaker 2: Does it get you horribly?

2891
02:38:39,840 --> 02:38:42,560
Speaker 3: Cut the fuck out? Yeah, it's just what you're signed

2892
02:38:42,640 --> 02:38:44,879
Speaker 3: up to do. I think what are the MP's doing

2893
02:38:45,680 --> 02:38:50,320
Speaker 3: that they will be facilitating CBP operations. I'm guessing like singing,

2894
02:38:51,480 --> 02:38:54,600
Speaker 3: like helping with intelligence that kind of stuff. Probably anti

2895
02:38:54,720 --> 02:38:57,440
Speaker 3: drone stuff. There's been a lot of talk about drones.

2896
02:38:58,400 --> 02:39:01,040
Speaker 3: I have not seen any small drones. Most of the

2897
02:39:01,040 --> 02:39:03,160
Speaker 3: areas where I go in the border of federal wilderness

2898
02:39:03,240 --> 02:39:05,400
Speaker 3: or state wilderness, so drones aren't allowed there any way.

2899
02:39:05,400 --> 02:39:08,320
Speaker 3: But I've never seen one. What makes this different is

2900
02:39:08,360 --> 02:39:11,120
Speaker 3: that these are infantry soldiers, right, Like, this is a

2901
02:39:11,160 --> 02:39:15,039
Speaker 3: concentration of troops. Everyone in the military that kills people,

2902
02:39:15,040 --> 02:39:17,440
Speaker 3: that helps people kill people. These are the killing people,

2903
02:39:17,480 --> 02:39:25,560
Speaker 3: guys and girls and well and a closeted they thems. Yeah,

2904
02:39:25,800 --> 02:39:27,600
Speaker 3: if you're a close to day them in a military,

2905
02:39:27,840 --> 02:39:30,400
Speaker 3: best of luck to you. That's what makes it different. Right.

2906
02:39:30,400 --> 02:39:34,359
Speaker 3: This is a significant concentration of troops on the border

2907
02:39:34,959 --> 02:39:37,600
Speaker 3: with one of our allies. This is coming as the

2908
02:39:37,680 --> 02:39:41,320
Speaker 3: United States has used drone over flights to pass information

2909
02:39:41,440 --> 02:39:45,160
Speaker 3: to Mexican authorities that resulted in the arrest of cartel

2910
02:39:45,560 --> 02:39:50,199
Speaker 3: personnel in Sinaloa. Right. So it is a significant change,

2911
02:39:50,200 --> 02:39:54,080
Speaker 3: and I imagine, based on what I've heard from sources,

2912
02:39:54,120 --> 02:39:57,040
Speaker 3: that we will see more of this. Right, the US's

2913
02:39:57,080 --> 02:40:00,480
Speaker 3: deployable infantry troops will be coming to the border. It

2914
02:40:00,560 --> 02:40:03,959
Speaker 3: means that we might soon be seeing foot patrols, right,

2915
02:40:04,560 --> 02:40:06,920
Speaker 3: soldiers on foot walking through the mountains to the border,

2916
02:40:06,920 --> 02:40:09,360
Speaker 3: because we ain't going to see striker mounted patrols out

2917
02:40:09,360 --> 02:40:12,560
Speaker 3: there if they want to keep their strikers. They're adding

2918
02:40:12,600 --> 02:40:15,360
Speaker 3: more helicopter assets, right, which can both move people to

2919
02:40:15,440 --> 02:40:20,520
Speaker 3: more remote areas and do more surveillance. Surveillance, I would assume, yeah, yeah,

2920
02:40:20,680 --> 02:40:22,840
Speaker 3: I mean, like when a hiker was shot down at

2921
02:40:22,840 --> 02:40:24,959
Speaker 3: the border a few weeks ago, and I was out

2922
02:40:25,000 --> 02:40:29,440
Speaker 3: there very quickly thereafter, and they used a UH sixty first. Well,

2923
02:40:29,480 --> 02:40:31,360
Speaker 3: actually didn't evacuate the person in the UA sixty. They

2924
02:40:31,400 --> 02:40:32,959
Speaker 3: went in the UA sixty of acted them in a

2925
02:40:33,080 --> 02:40:37,200
Speaker 3: uicopter and then another military black hawk's kind of flying

2926
02:40:37,240 --> 02:40:39,320
Speaker 3: over after that, and I'm guessing that was just to

2927
02:40:39,400 --> 02:40:43,119
Speaker 3: kind of provide cover for the like the first responders

2928
02:40:43,160 --> 02:40:45,520
Speaker 3: right who were going there to I think in that case,

2929
02:40:45,520 --> 02:40:48,000
Speaker 3: they're investigating the scene. The person had been evacuated, but

2930
02:40:49,040 --> 02:40:51,080
Speaker 3: there are very remote areas of the border which probably

2931
02:40:51,080 --> 02:40:53,920
Speaker 3: our best access by helicopter, and so that's what they

2932
02:40:53,959 --> 02:40:58,120
Speaker 3: will be doing. But this does represent a significant concentration

2933
02:40:58,200 --> 02:40:59,879
Speaker 3: of combat troops on the border with that ally, which

2934
02:40:59,920 --> 02:41:00,920
Speaker 3: is not a normal thing to do.

2935
02:41:01,360 --> 02:41:03,160
Speaker 11: And it's worth bearing in mind that as we're doing

2936
02:41:03,160 --> 02:41:04,720
Speaker 11: troop build US in the Mexican border, there are a

2937
02:41:04,800 --> 02:41:07,920
Speaker 11: lot of people in the Trump administration who want to

2938
02:41:08,000 --> 02:41:11,480
Speaker 11: do just full on cross border US military operations in Mexico.

2939
02:41:11,560 --> 02:41:14,160
Speaker 11: They want to do invasions, They want to do like

2940
02:41:14,480 --> 02:41:16,480
Speaker 11: what what they think of as like hell actions.

2941
02:41:17,440 --> 02:41:21,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, sort of support for like drone strikes right now,

2942
02:41:21,600 --> 02:41:25,240
Speaker 3: which the terrorist designation does kind of pave a road to.

2943
02:41:25,800 --> 02:41:28,320
Speaker 3: But obviously it's worth noting for those not familiar that

2944
02:41:28,360 --> 02:41:30,160
Speaker 3: Mexico is a different country and you don't just get

2945
02:41:30,200 --> 02:41:32,240
Speaker 3: to drone strike other countries. That's an active war.

2946
02:41:32,680 --> 02:41:35,720
Speaker 5: Well, and speaking of they them's in the military, I

2947
02:41:35,720 --> 02:41:37,800
Speaker 5: will do a quick follow up before we go on break.

2948
02:41:38,040 --> 02:41:41,560
Speaker 5: We mentioned last week about efforts from the Navy to

2949
02:41:42,959 --> 02:41:46,039
Speaker 5: house trans naval.

2950
02:41:47,400 --> 02:41:50,880
Speaker 3: Members sailors.

2951
02:41:50,920 --> 02:41:53,240
Speaker 5: I guess I guess they kind of all are sailors,

2952
02:41:53,280 --> 02:41:57,760
Speaker 5: aren't they, But basically, how's them with people matching their

2953
02:41:58,240 --> 02:42:01,199
Speaker 5: assigned gender at birth, same thing with access to intimate

2954
02:42:01,240 --> 02:42:05,240
Speaker 5: spaces like bathrooms. This has escalated further to now a

2955
02:42:05,360 --> 02:42:10,840
Speaker 5: general quasi ban of trans people from the military altogether,

2956
02:42:11,480 --> 02:42:15,080
Speaker 5: with a few implementation paths towards this a form of

2957
02:42:15,080 --> 02:42:17,760
Speaker 5: like don't ask, don't tell. We will report on this

2958
02:42:17,879 --> 02:42:19,680
Speaker 5: more in the future as a part of a larger

2959
02:42:19,720 --> 02:42:23,320
Speaker 5: piece on the lavender scare currently happening across the government.

2960
02:42:23,680 --> 02:42:26,560
Speaker 5: But that that did happen literally like a few hours

2961
02:42:26,600 --> 02:42:31,000
Speaker 5: after we record it we got word that they are

2962
02:42:31,000 --> 02:42:34,760
Speaker 5: seeking to just band trans people from the military altogether. Anyway,

2963
02:42:34,959 --> 02:42:38,640
Speaker 5: we will go on break and return to talk tar Us.

2964
02:42:51,840 --> 02:42:52,280
Speaker 4: We're back.

2965
02:42:52,320 --> 02:42:55,040
Speaker 2: Hey, I wanted to note something I was unaware of

2966
02:42:55,120 --> 02:42:58,080
Speaker 2: because I have not changed my friend's name and my phone,

2967
02:42:58,080 --> 02:43:02,119
Speaker 2: but Joey now goes by a ya ayub. I apologize

2968
02:43:02,160 --> 02:43:05,959
Speaker 2: for the error there, but James corrected me.

2969
02:43:06,040 --> 02:43:08,080
Speaker 3: So we're good team. What makes a dream work?

2970
02:43:08,920 --> 02:43:12,160
Speaker 2: And never changing people's names in my phone makes well?

2971
02:43:12,160 --> 02:43:14,840
Speaker 1: Actually, I usually I was gonna say, I'm impressed you

2972
02:43:14,920 --> 02:43:16,160
Speaker 1: have a name saved in.

2973
02:43:16,120 --> 02:43:20,000
Speaker 2: Your LEAs is a friend, so I actually have their

2974
02:43:20,080 --> 02:43:23,039
Speaker 2: name saved in my phone. Ninety percent of the texts

2975
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:25,120
Speaker 2: coming at me at any given time is just a

2976
02:43:25,160 --> 02:43:29,320
Speaker 2: series of unlabeled phone numbers, and it's chaos. I'm just

2977
02:43:29,400 --> 02:43:32,879
Speaker 2: guessing that people are who someone I should be in

2978
02:43:32,920 --> 02:43:33,600
Speaker 2: contact with.

2979
02:43:34,160 --> 02:43:37,879
Speaker 5: That's absurd. Well, there's no tariffs or butts about it.

2980
02:43:37,959 --> 02:43:46,280
Speaker 5: But the economy is it a bad spot? No, I

2981
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:47,120
Speaker 5: was gonna do.

2982
02:43:47,320 --> 02:43:50,080
Speaker 11: I was gonna do speaking of absurd but no, no,

2983
02:43:50,240 --> 02:43:50,840
Speaker 11: even worse.

2984
02:43:51,360 --> 02:43:53,039
Speaker 1: Worser Gar said.

2985
02:43:53,640 --> 02:43:56,440
Speaker 2: You know what, Gear, I'm proud of you. That's almost

2986
02:43:56,480 --> 02:43:58,760
Speaker 2: as good as my rock. The kas bad joke.

2987
02:43:59,400 --> 02:44:02,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, well I don't want to do tariff talk. No,

2988
02:44:02,959 --> 02:44:06,320
Speaker 5: but where do we do it? Anyways, So.

2989
02:44:08,320 --> 02:44:12,080
Speaker 11: After those horrors we got, we have other horrors question mark.

2990
02:44:12,240 --> 02:44:18,160
Speaker 11: So on Tuesday, Trump's tariffs on Canada and Mexico and

2991
02:44:18,320 --> 02:44:21,760
Speaker 11: also an additional ten percent tariff on China went into effect.

2992
02:44:21,800 --> 02:44:25,039
Speaker 11: So these are twenty five percent across the board tariffs.

2993
02:44:25,200 --> 02:44:27,200
Speaker 11: There's some I think there are only like ten percent

2994
02:44:27,240 --> 02:44:31,000
Speaker 11: on Canadian oil, Canadian energy, Yeah, yeah, like energy stuff.

2995
02:44:31,040 --> 02:44:33,800
Speaker 11: Weirdly that's not also applied to Mexico, even though we

2996
02:44:34,000 --> 02:44:35,080
Speaker 11: there's a shit ton of oil.

2997
02:44:35,520 --> 02:44:35,920
Speaker 5: I don't know.

2998
02:44:36,120 --> 02:44:39,240
Speaker 11: And at sort of the last moment, if there was

2999
02:44:39,320 --> 02:44:43,400
Speaker 11: a kind of he got called by all three of

3000
02:44:43,480 --> 02:44:46,080
Speaker 11: the heads of the big three auto manufacturers who were like,

3001
02:44:46,120 --> 02:44:48,400
Speaker 11: if you don't exclude auto tariffs, we're all gonna die.

3002
02:44:48,920 --> 02:44:53,320
Speaker 11: So he's he's like pushed tariffs out for one month.

3003
02:44:53,360 --> 02:44:57,000
Speaker 11: They're suspended on automotive imports. We still don't know what

3004
02:44:57,000 --> 02:44:59,440
Speaker 11: the fuck that actually means, because it's unclear whether he

3005
02:44:59,640 --> 02:45:02,000
Speaker 11: just means like cars and trucks or whether it also

3006
02:45:02,000 --> 02:45:06,720
Speaker 11: glues auto parts deeply unclear. There's also all tariff alune

3007
02:45:06,720 --> 02:45:09,520
Speaker 11: women steel imports. He announced that a tariff on in

3008
02:45:09,760 --> 02:45:11,440
Speaker 11: the speech, the copp rolem we knew about I don't

3009
02:45:11,440 --> 02:45:13,680
Speaker 11: think we knew about the illune women steel imports, which

3010
02:45:13,680 --> 02:45:16,720
Speaker 11: are new, which are also going to be sort of catastrophic.

3011
02:45:17,160 --> 02:45:20,680
Speaker 11: I want to read this amazing CM quote from CNBC.

3012
02:45:21,920 --> 02:45:25,160
Speaker 11: Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick said that Trump's tariff will cause

3013
02:45:25,240 --> 02:45:28,879
Speaker 11: quote higher prices, but he maintained that only some products

3014
02:45:28,920 --> 02:45:31,519
Speaker 11: would be affected and that price hikes would be temporary.

3015
02:45:31,959 --> 02:45:35,280
Speaker 5: Famously, price hikes are only temporary. Hold on, hold on,

3016
02:45:35,400 --> 02:45:37,240
Speaker 5: it gets better. We got to the good part.

3017
02:45:37,280 --> 02:45:41,400
Speaker 11: Yet, Lutnick consisted that those rising prices should not be

3018
02:45:41,480 --> 02:45:45,200
Speaker 11: considered inflation. Okay, as the President said last night, there's

3019
02:45:45,240 --> 02:45:46,840
Speaker 11: going to be a short period where there'd be some

3020
02:45:46,920 --> 02:45:49,760
Speaker 11: higher prices on certain products, the cabinet secretary said on

3021
02:45:49,800 --> 02:45:53,800
Speaker 11: Fox News, it's not inflation. That's nonsense, certain products for

3022
02:45:53,800 --> 02:45:57,760
Speaker 11: a short period of time. He said, Now, now the

3023
02:45:57,879 --> 02:46:00,520
Speaker 11: definition of inflation, and I kind of have it's enough,

3024
02:46:00,560 --> 02:46:01,520
Speaker 11: is prices going up?

3025
02:46:01,800 --> 02:46:05,680
Speaker 5: So great? Great stuff here.

3026
02:46:05,720 --> 02:46:08,720
Speaker 11: There's also you know, as this has been unfolding, there

3027
02:46:08,760 --> 02:46:12,200
Speaker 11: are been reciprocal tariffs from Canada. The first round of

3028
02:46:12,240 --> 02:46:16,480
Speaker 11: negotiation between Trump and Trudeau basically went nowhere. Canada's putting

3029
02:46:16,480 --> 02:46:19,800
Speaker 11: tariffs on and this is true of both Canada and China,

3030
02:46:19,800 --> 02:46:23,320
Speaker 11: who have both done reciprocal tariffs. They've been more limited,

3031
02:46:23,520 --> 02:46:28,120
Speaker 11: They're only targeting sort of specific sectors. Well, the Chinese

3032
02:46:28,240 --> 02:46:31,680
Speaker 11: rates are lower. China's Yeah, rates are really a ton

3033
02:46:31,720 --> 02:46:34,200
Speaker 11: of fifteen percent, the big one from China. And I'm

3034
02:46:34,280 --> 02:46:36,800
Speaker 11: very confused about this whole the way everyone's talking about this,

3035
02:46:36,840 --> 02:46:39,000
Speaker 11: because everyone only seems to be talking about Canada and

3036
02:46:39,000 --> 02:46:41,160
Speaker 11: Mexico and these, even though the terriff rate on China

3037
02:46:41,200 --> 02:46:42,039
Speaker 11: is now up to twenty percent.

3038
02:46:42,240 --> 02:46:45,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did it out of two steps, right like that. Yeah, yeah,

3039
02:46:45,520 --> 02:46:46,800
Speaker 3: he slid under the Rada.

3040
02:46:47,240 --> 02:46:49,680
Speaker 11: You know obviously, Like yeah, okay, So like the US

3041
02:46:49,760 --> 02:46:51,600
Speaker 11: and Mexico and the US and Canada have the two

3042
02:46:51,640 --> 02:46:55,360
Speaker 11: largest trading relationships on Earth. However, Comma, the Chinese reciprocal

3043
02:46:55,400 --> 02:46:58,440
Speaker 11: tariffs are really going to hurt because one of the

3044
02:46:58,440 --> 02:47:01,800
Speaker 11: big things that they're targeting is US soybean exports. Now,

3045
02:47:01,959 --> 02:47:04,920
Speaker 11: we do twelve billion dollars of soybean exports per year.

3046
02:47:05,520 --> 02:47:09,520
Speaker 11: This matters enormously though. It has an outsized impact regardless

3047
02:47:09,520 --> 02:47:13,400
Speaker 11: of sort of the dollar amounts here because Midwest farming,

3048
02:47:13,560 --> 02:47:16,600
Speaker 11: huge parts of it is based on yearly rotations between

3049
02:47:16,640 --> 02:47:19,039
Speaker 11: soybeans and corn to maintain soil quality. Right, like the

3050
02:47:19,080 --> 02:47:21,520
Speaker 11: farm like that I grew up near, Like this is

3051
02:47:21,520 --> 02:47:23,560
Speaker 11: what they did, right, this is this a massive portion

3052
02:47:23,600 --> 02:47:25,120
Speaker 11: of mid West and agriculture functions off of this.

3053
02:47:25,200 --> 02:47:28,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's just also just like soybeans and corn are

3054
02:47:28,520 --> 02:47:35,160
Speaker 2: like primarily what human beings grow. Yeah yeah, and rice

3055
02:47:35,280 --> 02:47:36,680
Speaker 2: like those are really the big three.

3056
02:47:36,959 --> 02:47:40,080
Speaker 5: You can't you can't eat that corn, but yeah, look.

3057
02:47:40,000 --> 02:47:41,959
Speaker 3: You don't, but it's part of your foods.

3058
02:47:42,080 --> 02:47:45,640
Speaker 5: Eventually it becomes definitly yeah, yeah, it's corn syrup and ship.

3059
02:47:45,520 --> 02:47:47,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, well corn syrup.

3060
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:49,840
Speaker 2: And also it's you know what the animals be yeah yeah,

3061
02:47:49,840 --> 02:47:51,680
Speaker 2: when they feeded to cattle and chickens.

3062
02:47:51,760 --> 02:47:54,160
Speaker 11: Yeah, and so this this is going to have a

3063
02:47:54,160 --> 02:47:57,440
Speaker 11: massive disruption on American agriculture. Trump has also been talking

3064
02:47:57,440 --> 02:48:02,000
Speaker 11: about imposing attacks on all American agricultural exports. Is some

3065
02:48:02,000 --> 02:48:05,440
Speaker 11: sort of weird like American autarchy thing. So interest the

3066
02:48:05,480 --> 02:48:07,480
Speaker 11: thing people are calling this a teriff, This is not

3067
02:48:07,560 --> 02:48:09,760
Speaker 11: a tariff. You don't impose tariffs on something that you

3068
02:48:09,800 --> 02:48:12,360
Speaker 11: are exporting to How this works, You know, like you

3069
02:48:12,360 --> 02:48:14,600
Speaker 11: can go back to a basic Hey, division of powers.

3070
02:48:14,600 --> 02:48:16,680
Speaker 11: Congress has the power of taxation. Wait, how is he

3071
02:48:16,720 --> 02:48:19,080
Speaker 11: doing who knows? I don't know where We're so far

3072
02:48:19,160 --> 02:48:21,560
Speaker 11: beyond that. But like the thing that he's hinting at

3073
02:48:21,920 --> 02:48:24,680
Speaker 11: here right, like if he really is trying to sort

3074
02:48:24,680 --> 02:48:33,720
Speaker 11: of like prevent all US agricultural exports, this is apocalyptic. Yeah,

3075
02:48:33,760 --> 02:48:35,680
Speaker 11: and it's also worth noting this thing has also been

3076
02:48:35,680 --> 02:48:36,280
Speaker 11: lost in the news.

3077
02:48:36,320 --> 02:48:38,080
Speaker 5: But he's been talking about this. He's been talking about.

3078
02:48:37,879 --> 02:48:40,879
Speaker 11: Doing these tariffs to the EU twenty five percent across

3079
02:48:40,920 --> 02:48:43,440
Speaker 11: the bard terriffs of the EU. Now what I think

3080
02:48:43,480 --> 02:48:46,840
Speaker 11: is important. So the markets today on Wednesday have been

3081
02:48:46,840 --> 02:48:50,320
Speaker 11: going back up. They immediately tanked like Tuesday. This week

3082
02:48:50,440 --> 02:48:54,640
Speaker 11: was nasty like Monday, Tuesday was red. And what's happening

3083
02:48:54,680 --> 02:48:57,879
Speaker 11: here is that none of this shit, None of the analysts,

3084
02:48:57,920 --> 02:48:59,720
Speaker 11: none of the people getting paid like fucking thirty million

3085
02:48:59,720 --> 02:49:01,039
Speaker 11: dollars you do financial analysts?

3086
02:49:01,040 --> 02:49:01,520
Speaker 5: What other the fuck?

3087
02:49:01,520 --> 02:49:03,440
Speaker 11: Like, none of these people, none of them thought this

3088
02:49:03,560 --> 02:49:05,760
Speaker 11: these terrorists were actually going to happen. They all just assumed,

3089
02:49:05,760 --> 02:49:07,000
Speaker 11: but they were, Oh, he's not actually going to do it,

3090
02:49:07,000 --> 02:49:08,959
Speaker 11: He's not actually going to do it. This it's just negotiations. No, no,

3091
02:49:09,240 --> 02:49:10,879
Speaker 11: he's doing it, and he was going to do it.

3092
02:49:11,160 --> 02:49:14,000
Speaker 11: They probably will be like sector bisecondor negotiations to get

3093
02:49:14,000 --> 02:49:17,560
Speaker 11: temporary lifts on them. But none of this shit was

3094
02:49:17,560 --> 02:49:20,200
Speaker 11: priced in. None of the financial animalsts, like no one

3095
02:49:20,240 --> 02:49:22,240
Speaker 11: was doing business planning or whatever, like none of the

3096
02:49:22,320 --> 02:49:24,720
Speaker 11: ship was supposed to be real, you know. And what's

3097
02:49:24,720 --> 02:49:27,640
Speaker 11: happening right now is sort of like they're latching on

3098
02:49:27,840 --> 02:49:30,039
Speaker 11: to this thing with some of the auto terifts being

3099
02:49:30,040 --> 02:49:32,200
Speaker 11: lifted for a month again one month, not and not

3100
02:49:32,240 --> 02:49:34,240
Speaker 11: an actual lift, but one month. They're latching onto this

3101
02:49:34,280 --> 02:49:36,440
Speaker 11: and they're going, Okay, maybe we can sort of reverse this.

3102
02:49:36,760 --> 02:49:40,200
Speaker 11: But this is the first moment that the financial markets

3103
02:49:40,240 --> 02:49:41,960
Speaker 11: have actually had to grapple with the fact that Trump

3104
02:49:42,000 --> 02:49:43,360
Speaker 11: is going to do all of the shit he says

3105
02:49:43,360 --> 02:49:46,320
Speaker 11: he's going to do. And like, like that afternoon, Bloomberg

3106
02:49:46,400 --> 02:49:48,280
Speaker 11: had a guy on like calling Trump a dictator and

3107
02:49:48,320 --> 02:49:50,720
Speaker 11: saying he wasn't gonna have elections. We are beginning to

3108
02:49:50,720 --> 02:49:54,360
Speaker 11: see capital flight from the US, where investors are like

3109
02:49:54,440 --> 02:49:57,320
Speaker 11: are openly talking about like pulling their fucking money out

3110
02:49:57,360 --> 02:49:59,360
Speaker 11: of this country and pulling into somewhere else because it's

3111
02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:01,600
Speaker 11: no longer stable, and this is something that you know,

3112
02:50:01,879 --> 02:50:03,640
Speaker 11: I think the next dam will be when the US

3113
02:50:03,720 --> 02:50:06,680
Speaker 11: is like credit rating gets downgraded. But we're starting to

3114
02:50:06,720 --> 02:50:10,360
Speaker 11: see the damn break on the financial class and all

3115
02:50:10,360 --> 02:50:13,080
Speaker 11: of these analysts and like people on Wall Street realizing

3116
02:50:13,959 --> 02:50:16,879
Speaker 11: that no, he is going to continue to throw bombs

3117
02:50:16,920 --> 02:50:19,320
Speaker 11: at the entire world economy in order to sort of

3118
02:50:19,320 --> 02:50:21,840
Speaker 11: carry out He's like, I want to be like the

3119
02:50:21,879 --> 02:50:23,600
Speaker 11: fucking big man empire guy.

3120
02:50:24,240 --> 02:50:28,400
Speaker 5: I like Trudeau. I had a call with Trump on Wednesday,

3121
02:50:28,680 --> 02:50:32,560
Speaker 5: basically going, hey, what's what the fuck man? I thought

3122
02:50:32,240 --> 02:50:35,080
Speaker 5: I thought we had a deal, and Trump was like, well,

3123
02:50:35,160 --> 02:50:37,640
Speaker 5: I'm not seeing much progress on the whole Fentanel thing.

3124
02:50:37,640 --> 02:50:39,959
Speaker 5: And Trudeau's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

3125
02:50:40,320 --> 02:50:44,840
Speaker 5: And Trump then basically pointed towards him not being satisfied

3126
02:50:45,240 --> 02:50:47,680
Speaker 5: until there's a new Canadian government, like he is not

3127
02:50:47,760 --> 02:50:50,440
Speaker 5: going to want to lift these until Trudeau is out

3128
02:50:50,440 --> 02:50:53,720
Speaker 5: of office and ask Trudeau when the next Canadian election,

3129
02:50:53,879 --> 02:50:56,080
Speaker 5: is hinting towards the fact that he just is going

3130
02:50:56,120 --> 02:50:59,320
Speaker 5: to refuse to seriously negotiate with Trudeau and will wait

3131
02:50:59,400 --> 02:51:02,160
Speaker 5: until whoever the next guy is. Meanwhile, you haven't post

3132
02:51:02,200 --> 02:51:05,440
Speaker 5: from the Chinese embassy in the US, saying if war

3133
02:51:05,560 --> 02:51:07,880
Speaker 5: is what the US wants, be it a terraff war,

3134
02:51:07,959 --> 02:51:11,400
Speaker 5: a trade war, or any other type of war, We're

3135
02:51:11,440 --> 02:51:13,080
Speaker 5: ready to fight till the end.

3136
02:51:13,480 --> 02:51:15,840
Speaker 11: Yeah, I will say, I will say the guys they

3137
02:51:15,840 --> 02:51:19,120
Speaker 11: put on the embassy pr coms are dipshits, Like those

3138
02:51:19,160 --> 02:51:21,840
Speaker 11: are not the guys running the Chinese government. Those are

3139
02:51:21,879 --> 02:51:24,960
Speaker 11: like the fucking clowns they put at these administrative posts

3140
02:51:25,040 --> 02:51:26,480
Speaker 11: to like scream about wolf.

3141
02:51:26,200 --> 02:51:27,280
Speaker 5: Warriors or whatever the fuck.

3142
02:51:27,800 --> 02:51:30,680
Speaker 11: The reporting I've seen from inside the Chinese government is

3143
02:51:30,720 --> 02:51:33,800
Speaker 11: that they also were like what the fuck are you doing?

3144
02:51:34,720 --> 02:51:38,600
Speaker 11: And they're they're trying to figure out like okay, like

3145
02:51:38,640 --> 02:51:42,480
Speaker 11: how do you negotiate with this guy? Yeah, like yeah,

3146
02:51:42,560 --> 02:51:44,960
Speaker 11: they're having real issues because like for all, for all

3147
02:51:45,000 --> 02:51:47,200
Speaker 11: of the Chinese government does like this is a government

3148
02:51:47,480 --> 02:51:48,199
Speaker 11: of capitalists.

3149
02:51:48,280 --> 02:51:50,080
Speaker 5: They want to make money, and.

3150
02:51:50,000 --> 02:51:52,640
Speaker 11: They're looking at a guy who is willing to just

3151
02:51:52,680 --> 02:51:53,879
Speaker 11: blow the entire thing up.

3152
02:51:54,480 --> 02:51:57,680
Speaker 2: Here's my pitch for what we should do with China, right,

3153
02:51:57,720 --> 02:52:00,160
Speaker 2: you know, China has this border conflict with India that

3154
02:52:00,240 --> 02:52:03,440
Speaker 2: could endo the world, but usually just involves two groups

3155
02:52:03,480 --> 02:52:06,600
Speaker 2: of people with spears that were originally made in the

3156
02:52:06,640 --> 02:52:11,760
Speaker 2: thirteenth century having Felanx fights in the mountains. Yep, we

3157
02:52:11,800 --> 02:52:15,280
Speaker 2: should just send over a couple of thousand marines and

3158
02:52:15,600 --> 02:52:18,199
Speaker 2: do that with China. Get it all out of our systems,

3159
02:52:18,240 --> 02:52:20,920
Speaker 2: this whole all this war talk. Just have a couple

3160
02:52:21,040 --> 02:52:23,879
Speaker 2: thousand dudes, have a big old speared fight. We filmed

3161
02:52:23,920 --> 02:52:26,120
Speaker 2: The Son of a Bitch. We get some drones, we

3162
02:52:26,240 --> 02:52:28,520
Speaker 2: bring in, Maybe we bring in Tarantino. He'd be great

3163
02:52:28,560 --> 02:52:29,360
Speaker 2: to film the fucker.

3164
02:52:29,640 --> 02:52:29,880
Speaker 3: You know.

3165
02:52:30,280 --> 02:52:32,920
Speaker 2: We really just have a good time with it, and

3166
02:52:32,959 --> 02:52:36,200
Speaker 2: then we just go back to not not doing stuff

3167
02:52:36,280 --> 02:52:36,600
Speaker 2: like this.

3168
02:52:38,360 --> 02:52:38,600
Speaker 4: Look.

3169
02:52:38,720 --> 02:52:40,840
Speaker 11: I think if we get us and trying to compete

3170
02:52:40,840 --> 02:52:42,480
Speaker 11: each other in the against each other in the US

3171
02:52:42,520 --> 02:52:44,840
Speaker 11: Special Forces Games, and we show this to Donald Trump

3172
02:52:45,680 --> 02:52:47,959
Speaker 11: and we have the Chinese government take like a stage

3173
02:52:48,040 --> 02:52:50,879
Speaker 11: loss or something, we could solve most of our problems.

3174
02:52:51,520 --> 02:52:53,600
Speaker 2: You can just edit it to be whoever like for

3175
02:52:53,640 --> 02:52:57,520
Speaker 2: both countries. Right, have an America version and a China version.

3176
02:52:58,120 --> 02:52:59,320
Speaker 3: We already do this.

3177
02:53:01,280 --> 02:53:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3178
02:53:03,160 --> 02:53:05,480
Speaker 11: So the last sort of serious thing that I want

3179
02:53:05,480 --> 02:53:08,560
Speaker 11: to talk about here is that this, especially the stuff

3180
02:53:08,560 --> 02:53:11,720
Speaker 11: he's talking about with you, but also with sort of Canada,

3181
02:53:12,640 --> 02:53:16,160
Speaker 11: this has broken the sort of international coalition that all

3182
02:53:16,200 --> 02:53:18,520
Speaker 11: of these people have been setting up for a really

3183
02:53:18,560 --> 02:53:21,760
Speaker 11: long time, right, this whole sort of coalition of all

3184
02:53:21,840 --> 02:53:24,480
Speaker 11: the sort of world's right wing governments like coming together

3185
02:53:24,520 --> 02:53:28,760
Speaker 11: in this national thing, and like they're really fucked now.

3186
02:53:28,879 --> 02:53:31,480
Speaker 11: Like the Canadian right was just like about to take power,

3187
02:53:31,680 --> 02:53:33,600
Speaker 11: and they might not now. And even if they you

3188
02:53:33,680 --> 02:53:35,240
Speaker 11: take power, they're gonna have to like deal with the

3189
02:53:35,240 --> 02:53:38,480
Speaker 11: fact that they've all been like fucking maniac Trump supporters

3190
02:53:38,480 --> 02:53:40,000
Speaker 11: this whole time, and Trump has just been like fucking

3191
02:53:40,000 --> 02:53:42,080
Speaker 11: their entire country. And like these people are now talking

3192
02:53:42,120 --> 02:53:45,040
Speaker 11: about like again like shutting off power to the US.

3193
02:53:45,640 --> 02:53:47,279
Speaker 5: And this is happening.

3194
02:53:46,959 --> 02:53:48,880
Speaker 11: All over the world with all of these fascist parties

3195
02:53:48,920 --> 02:53:50,400
Speaker 11: who've been allied with the US right, they are now

3196
02:53:50,440 --> 02:53:53,600
Speaker 11: having to grapple with the fact that the US.

3197
02:53:52,879 --> 02:53:54,880
Speaker 5: Is just gonna it's just gonna fuck them.

3198
02:53:55,080 --> 02:53:56,800
Speaker 11: Weirdly, the thing it reminds me a lot is like

3199
02:53:56,840 --> 02:53:58,600
Speaker 11: the situation you've got at the end of the seventies

3200
02:53:58,640 --> 02:54:01,160
Speaker 11: in East Asia with the communists. It was like, Okay,

3201
02:54:01,200 --> 02:54:03,760
Speaker 11: so we have three nominally communist governments on the border

3202
02:54:03,800 --> 02:54:05,800
Speaker 11: with each other. Right you have China, you have Cabodia,

3203
02:54:05,879 --> 02:54:07,960
Speaker 11: and you have Vietnam and I guess you have flows

3204
02:54:08,200 --> 02:54:10,080
Speaker 11: and then in those three governments, instead of like forming

3205
02:54:10,080 --> 02:54:12,080
Speaker 11: a united block, like all go to war with each other.

3206
02:54:12,240 --> 02:54:13,560
Speaker 11: And that's like sort of what we're seeing with the

3207
02:54:13,560 --> 02:54:15,879
Speaker 11: fascist right now is like because Trump has decided to

3208
02:54:15,959 --> 02:54:17,840
Speaker 11: just be like fuck it, like we're just gonna do

3209
02:54:17,879 --> 02:54:21,000
Speaker 11: tariffs on everyone it has, it is really starting to

3210
02:54:21,040 --> 02:54:25,560
Speaker 11: tearrist coalition apart and hopefully this rolls back a bunch

3211
02:54:25,560 --> 02:54:27,119
Speaker 11: of their gains everywhere else in the world.

3212
02:54:27,200 --> 02:54:29,800
Speaker 5: And yeah, they suply chit. And I think Trump is

3213
02:54:29,879 --> 02:54:33,040
Speaker 5: using for leverage hair beyond even tariffs, like a cutting

3214
02:54:33,040 --> 02:54:37,200
Speaker 5: out Canada from the Five Eyes Intelligence Group, halting intel

3215
02:54:37,240 --> 02:54:42,040
Speaker 5: sharing with Ukraine, very very like drastic steps in terms

3216
02:54:42,080 --> 02:54:44,680
Speaker 5: of like national security and intel sharing.

3217
02:54:44,840 --> 02:54:48,280
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just deeply clear that what's happening is

3218
02:54:48,480 --> 02:54:52,200
Speaker 2: we're ending every single thing the US used to do

3219
02:54:53,080 --> 02:54:55,960
Speaker 2: that Trump does not see as a direct financial benefit,

3220
02:54:56,640 --> 02:55:01,040
Speaker 2: and largely aligning ourselves with Russia against every state that

3221
02:55:01,080 --> 02:55:03,160
Speaker 2: does not have the physical power to stop us.

3222
02:55:03,400 --> 02:55:06,440
Speaker 5: Yep, well that does it for us today. I know

3223
02:55:06,600 --> 02:55:09,520
Speaker 5: on Tuesday night, Trump did a speech to a joint

3224
02:55:09,560 --> 02:55:13,160
Speaker 5: session of Congress. We have a whole episode on that

3225
02:55:13,160 --> 02:55:15,760
Speaker 5: that released yesterday because there was just so much to

3226
02:55:15,959 --> 02:55:18,320
Speaker 5: talk about. So if you want to hear our thoughts

3227
02:55:18,360 --> 02:55:23,200
Speaker 5: on that, you can check out yesterday's episode on his

3228
02:55:23,280 --> 02:55:27,440
Speaker 5: congressional speech, Full of Somebody. A summary, yes, because the

3229
02:55:27,440 --> 02:55:30,360
Speaker 5: speech was very long, focused a lot on trans people,

3230
02:55:30,440 --> 02:55:34,000
Speaker 5: focused a lot on the border, talked about national security,

3231
02:55:34,440 --> 02:55:38,560
Speaker 5: really skipped over the economy because yeah, no, guys are great,

3232
02:55:39,240 --> 02:55:41,800
Speaker 5: because that's not really going too good. Keep shooting holes

3233
02:55:41,800 --> 02:55:44,320
Speaker 5: of it. Let's skip it over. That focused more on

3234
02:55:44,360 --> 02:55:47,560
Speaker 5: trans people as the single greatest threat facing this country.

3235
02:55:48,160 --> 02:55:49,920
Speaker 5: But yes, if you want to hear about that, check

3236
02:55:49,920 --> 02:55:53,519
Speaker 5: out yesterday's episode on the it could happen here feed.

3237
02:55:53,360 --> 02:55:56,160
Speaker 1: The shortest summary possible speech bad.

3238
02:55:56,120 --> 02:55:59,920
Speaker 5: Speech bad, Yeah, speech bad. The era of Woke is

3239
02:56:00,160 --> 02:56:02,000
Speaker 5: over would be the other summary I give.

3240
02:56:03,240 --> 02:56:06,440
Speaker 3: The era of woke is over. Where you're employed, if

3241
02:56:06,760 --> 02:56:09,200
Speaker 3: the era of Wok has ended your employment and you'd

3242
02:56:09,240 --> 02:56:12,480
Speaker 3: like to reach out to us, you can using our

3243
02:56:12,520 --> 02:56:16,320
Speaker 3: proton mail address. That doesn't mean that it's not like.

3244
02:56:16,360 --> 02:56:18,120
Speaker 3: If you're not using proton then it's not end to

3245
02:56:18,160 --> 02:56:20,320
Speaker 3: end encrypted. If you are, then it's encrypted, but it

3246
02:56:20,320 --> 02:56:23,280
Speaker 3: doesn't mean it's necessarily totally safe. So you need to

3247
02:56:23,320 --> 02:56:26,360
Speaker 3: do what you think is best. It is cool Zone

3248
02:56:26,400 --> 02:56:30,360
Speaker 3: tips at proton dot me. If you don't work for government,

3249
02:56:30,400 --> 02:56:32,879
Speaker 3: but you do work for Elon Musk in another capacity,

3250
02:56:32,959 --> 02:56:35,080
Speaker 3: it would also be very funny to hear from you

3251
02:56:35,160 --> 02:56:38,400
Speaker 3: about what that is like. So yeah, cool Zone tips

3252
02:56:38,440 --> 02:56:39,920
Speaker 3: at proton dot.

3253
02:56:39,760 --> 02:56:44,320
Speaker 5: Me increasingly relevant considering that Social Security layofs have started

3254
02:56:44,560 --> 02:56:47,240
Speaker 5: and they're now seeking to cut possibly upprints of fifty

3255
02:56:47,320 --> 02:56:49,720
Speaker 5: percent of the Social Security workforce.

3256
02:56:49,920 --> 02:56:53,120
Speaker 3: And the irs. So I'm sure that's going to work

3257
02:56:53,120 --> 02:56:54,640
Speaker 3: out great for government revenues.

3258
02:56:54,879 --> 02:56:57,680
Speaker 5: I'm sure everything will be fine and America will be

3259
02:56:57,720 --> 02:56:59,560
Speaker 5: back on top in no time.

3260
02:57:00,160 --> 02:57:01,440
Speaker 3: It is back. America is back.

3261
02:57:01,440 --> 02:57:05,119
Speaker 5: I learned that last night we reported the news.

3262
02:57:05,400 --> 02:57:07,199
Speaker 1: Yes, we certainly did.

3263
02:57:07,680 --> 02:57:08,680
Speaker 3: We reported the news.

3264
02:57:14,360 --> 02:57:17,520
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3265
02:57:17,600 --> 02:57:19,520
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3266
02:57:20,240 --> 02:57:22,760
Speaker 12: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3267
02:57:22,920 --> 02:57:26,000
Speaker 12: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3268
02:57:26,080 --> 02:57:29,640
Speaker 12: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3269
02:57:29,720 --> 02:57:33,280
Speaker 12: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3270
02:57:33,320 --> 02:57:35,640
Speaker 12: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly

3271
02:57:35,680 --> 02:57:37,960
Speaker 12: in episode descriptions thanks for listening,