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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will

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Speaker 2: love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone,

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Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a mother and daughter who've been emotionally distant

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Speaker 1: for the past twenty five years try to heal the

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Speaker 1: wounds of the past.

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Speaker 3: From the moment she said she didn't want us to

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Speaker 3: be involved in the adoption process, I found that Sephanie

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Speaker 3: was rejecting me, and as things have gone on for

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Speaker 3: the past years, I felt like she doesn't approve of me,

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Speaker 3: and so I've just distanced myself.

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Speaker 2: First, a quick notepists is for informational purposes only. It

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 2: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 2: use it in part or in full, and we may

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Speaker 2: edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear.

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Speaker 2: All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 1: Hey Laurie, Hey guy, So what are we going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about today?

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Speaker 2: Today? We have a letter about a mother daughter relationship.

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Speaker 2: They're both going to be here. The letter came from

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Speaker 2: the daughter, and here it is deotherapists. I became pregnant

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Speaker 2: and placed my baby for adoption when I was nineteen

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Speaker 2: years old. I was in the second year of college

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Speaker 2: and didn't feel I was able to raise a child

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Speaker 2: well at that time of my life. The adoption was open,

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Speaker 2: and while I don't have a particularly close relationship with her,

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Speaker 2: we've been working to deepen our adult relationship and I

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Speaker 2: feel that's going well. My mother, Rona, loves my daughter

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Speaker 2: and has a good relationship with her. However, she has

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Speaker 2: never been able to forgive me for getting pregnant out

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Speaker 2: of wedlock. At one point, about ten years ago, she

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Speaker 2: told me it was the worst thing I could have

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Speaker 2: done to her. This was despite my other successes in life,

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Speaker 2: a fulfilling career as a teacher, close friends, a paid

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Speaker 2: off house, and a generally good life. I visit her

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Speaker 2: and my father a few times a year, and while

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Speaker 2: from my perspective, she trials to hold it together when

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Speaker 2: I visit, most visits results in her yelling at me,

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Speaker 2: whether it's about the fact that I got pregnant twenty

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Speaker 2: five years ago or other small things which I suspect

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Speaker 2: are precipitated by her lingering anger. I think we would

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Speaker 2: both like to have a closer relationship, but this isn't

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Speaker 2: possible for me while there's this tension between us. Please

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Speaker 2: help Stephanie. But of note, Laurie is our producer, just

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Speaker 2: notified us that a week ago the father passed away.

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Speaker 2: Now they're still coming on the show. The mother one

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Speaker 2: daughter of expressed interest in doing that, but we wanted

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Speaker 2: to point out that this big thing just happened and

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Speaker 2: we'll need to take that into consideration.

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Speaker 1: First of all, my condolence is to the family, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that they're both still eager and

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Speaker 1: interested in coming on today because we offered to put

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Speaker 1: this off, and they both wanted to still come on

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Speaker 1: and talk about this. So I imagine that this has been

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Speaker 1: so much in the foreground for both of them and

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Speaker 1: something that they've really wanted to deal with for a long.

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Speaker 2: Time exactly, and yet they haven't been able to repair

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Speaker 2: this rupture in twenty five years. So I'm curious about

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Speaker 2: why that hasn't happened. We have a lot of questions,

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Speaker 2: and probably the best thing to do is let's go

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Speaker 2: talk to them.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Lari Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Dea Therapists. Hello,

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Speaker 2: Rona and Stephanie.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Rona and Stephanie, Welcome.

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Speaker 4: Hello.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 2: You would like to start with our condolences and we're

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Speaker 2: all very honored that you're able to join us today

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Speaker 2: despite what happened, and we'd like to hear a little

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Speaker 2: bit about where you both are right now given the

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Speaker 2: events of last week.

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Speaker 3: My husband has been sick for years. It's an autoimmune

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Speaker 3: that is progressive and it seems to have flared maybe

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Speaker 3: two weeks before he died. He was in the hospital

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Speaker 3: for a week before he died. Stephanie was able to

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Speaker 3: get home before he died, so it was not unexpected.

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Speaker 3: But it's still difficult, of course.

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Speaker 1: And for you, Stephanie, what has this been like.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize how much worse it was getting. They

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Speaker 4: called me early last week and I was able to

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Speaker 4: get on a plane and was there. He wasn't really

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Speaker 4: talking or anything by the time I got to the hospital,

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Speaker 4: but I was able to say goodbye and be there

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Speaker 4: for the last few hours. You know, those first few

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Speaker 4: days are really hard, and then I have so many

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Speaker 4: amazing friends and family sending out their club and thoughts,

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Speaker 4: and I think I'm a little bit numb and not

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Speaker 4: really completely processing it sometimes. You know, for a few days,

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Speaker 4: I just kind of cried a lot. And now it's

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Speaker 4: like I've had so many family around and it's actually

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Speaker 4: been kind of nice spend time with them, and I

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Speaker 4: think it's going to get harder again when.

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Speaker 2: I go home.

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Speaker 1: Have you and your mom been able to support each

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Speaker 1: other through this?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I have foult her support and Rona.

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Speaker 2: Stephanie said that a lot of friends and family have

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Speaker 2: been coming out, which is great. Do you have a

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Speaker 2: support system in place for when Stephanie leaves.

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Speaker 3: I do for the moment, I'm actually looking forward to

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Speaker 3: some alone time. But I have a great network of friends,

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Speaker 3: and we have a lot of family in the area.

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Speaker 2: And Stephanie, you're going back home, do you have a

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Speaker 2: support system there?

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 4: My partner drove out to meet me and we were

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Speaker 4: driving back together. And then I have lots and lots

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Speaker 4: of friends who've asked what they can do when I've

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Speaker 4: made a list, actually the people who've alve heard. And

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Speaker 4: I have a friend who's already like, hey, I'll be

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Speaker 4: creating back Friday night. Let's hang out. And I feel

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Speaker 4: very fortunate to have that too.

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Speaker 1: That's good. So tell us a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: your relationship has been like from early on before the

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Speaker 1: pregnancy happened.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like we had a reasonable relationship.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't always the easiest team, but I feel like

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Speaker 4: we had a fairly good relationship. We bake cookies together,

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Speaker 4: and she was very welcome to my friends.

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Speaker 2: We got along and wonder what was your perception of

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Speaker 2: the early years with Stephanie.

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Speaker 3: I always felt like her father was the better parent.

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Speaker 3: I was kind of the heavy in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: The disciplinarian as it were.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but yeah, we got along. You know. Somebody turned

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Speaker 3: to which when she turned thirteen, and I couldn't wait

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Speaker 3: till she went to college. She turned seventeen, and I

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Speaker 3: was kind of hoping she'd stick around for a little while.

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Speaker 2: What was the change at thirteen?

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Speaker 3: She was more secretive. She had bad taste in boys,

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Speaker 3: and that was always a difficult thing.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the boys and what the

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Speaker 1: bad taste was about? In your opinion?

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Speaker 3: She went after the how should I say? Naughty boys?

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Speaker 3: Boys who were more wild? And I've heard from others

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Speaker 3: that this is not unusual, especially for teenagers like Stephanie,

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Speaker 3: who feel like they can reform these young men.

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Speaker 2: Would you get into conflicts around her choice of boys?

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Speaker 2: What would happen between the two of you.

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Speaker 3: We really didn't argue about it. Her dad and I

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Speaker 3: both felt like if we forbid this, it would not

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Speaker 3: do any good. At one time, she said to somebody,

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Speaker 3: my parents liked all of my boyfriends, and there were

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Speaker 3: some that made us shrunk.

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Speaker 1: There's a difference, though, between forbidding that she sees someone

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Speaker 1: and having a conversation about, hey, can we talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the boys you're hanging out with. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever have those conversations?

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Speaker 3: At least with one. I could recall a conversation and

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Speaker 3: she would say to me, but he's so sweet.

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Speaker 4: Stephanie.

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Speaker 1: From your perspective, you said you weren't the easiest teenager.

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Speaker 1: What did you mean by that?

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Speaker 4: I guess it didn't even mean so much that I

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Speaker 4: was harder than others. Most teenagers are not easy to

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Speaker 4: deal with for their parents. I did what I was

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Speaker 4: supposed to, and I got good grades, and I was

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Speaker 4: active in band, and I have lots of friends, and

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Speaker 4: a lot of the guys I dated came from homes

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Speaker 4: that maybe weren't nearly a support of his mind, but

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Speaker 4: they were good people. From my perspective, my parents were

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Speaker 4: pretty judgmental about who I dated, and the people I

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Speaker 4: think they wanted me a date weren't as gooden quotes

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Speaker 4: as they thought they were. A lot of the people

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Speaker 4: that seemed more straight laced were going out and partying

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Speaker 4: and drinking a lot and things like that, which I

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Speaker 4: didn't do at all. I didn't drink alcohol at all

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Speaker 4: in high school, or drugs or anything like that. And

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Speaker 4: the guys I dated, you know someone that smoked cigarettes,

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Speaker 4: but they would never have let me smoke or drink

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Speaker 4: or those things because they knew that was bad for them.

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Speaker 4: I have one boyfriend whose dad locked in a closet

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Speaker 4: and forced him to spoke a pack of cigarettes to

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Speaker 4: try to make them stop, and then he was addicted.

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Speaker 4: He said, So, from my perspective, these weren't bad kids.

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Speaker 4: They weren't doing anything bad to me. They were never abusive,

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Speaker 4: they were never unkind.

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Speaker 1: So did you feel, then, because you knew that your

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Speaker 1: parents disapproved of these boys, that you had to hide

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Speaker 1: the fact that you were seeing them or was this

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Speaker 1: all out in the open?

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Speaker 4: I mean, the only thing I hid was things I

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Speaker 4: did that went beyond kissing. I'm sure I wasn't completely

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Speaker 4: truthful everywhere I went, but generally I didn't hide that

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Speaker 4: I was dating them.

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Speaker 2: So then what happened when he went to college, Because

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Speaker 2: that's when you said, do you go pregnant? Tell us

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Speaker 2: about what happened around that.

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Speaker 4: I went to college and I slept with someone for

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Speaker 4: the first time, And whenever I think back, it's like,

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Speaker 4: how could I have been so irrational? But I was

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Speaker 4: afraid my mom would find out I was on birth control,

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Speaker 4: and so I wasn't on birth control of any kind,

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Speaker 4: not even condoms, which was just dumb in retrospect, that's

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Speaker 4: so illogical. But I don't know how she would have

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Speaker 4: even found out necessarily, not trying to blame it on her.

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Speaker 4: That was my thought process. And then I got.

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Speaker 2: Pregnant, and tell us what happened once you did.

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Speaker 4: I had just actually broken up with the I need

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Speaker 4: to be my boyfriend for several months and I was

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Speaker 4: dating somebody new, and I took the pregnancy test. At

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Speaker 4: that point of or it was not an option, and

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Speaker 4: so I was going to place the child for adoption.

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Speaker 4: And it was an easy choice. Really. People say that

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Speaker 4: must been a difficult choice, but it wasn't. It was like, well,

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Speaker 4: this is obviously the thing to do. And my new

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Speaker 4: partner was very, very supportant, and he stayed with me

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Speaker 4: through the whole pregnancy, and I chose her parents.

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Speaker 2: And the babies father.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, her biological father wanted nothing to do with anything.

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Speaker 4: We still were in classes together, but we weren't really

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Speaker 4: speaking to each other much. He gave the paperwork to

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Speaker 4: the adoption agency with like the medical history and stuff,

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Speaker 4: and that was the extent of it.

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Speaker 1: So he wasn't really supporting you through the pregnancy.

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Speaker 4: Not at all. I had a new partner who was

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Speaker 4: amazingly supportive. I think of Danielle as having a biological father,

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Speaker 4: a birth father, and adoptive father.

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Speaker 1: So the new boyfriend supported you throughout the pregnancy. And

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Speaker 1: you stayed in college and you took your classes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and you had the baby. What year of college were

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Speaker 1: you at that point?

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Speaker 4: It was my second year. I had her this summer

261
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Speaker 4: after my sophomore year.

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Speaker 2: How did you tell your parents? Tell us about that conversation.

263
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Speaker 4: I was terrified to tell my parents. My parents came

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Speaker 4: to visit me for a weekend while I was in college,

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Speaker 4: and we were sitting around eating and I was talking

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Speaker 4: about my stomach kind of not feeling well and it

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Speaker 4: felt better when I ate, And then Mom asked.

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Speaker 1: Me if I was pregnant, and I said yes, Ronnick,

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Speaker 1: How did that come to your mind, the first thing,

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Speaker 1: that she might be pregnant, as opposed to just she's

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Speaker 1: got food poisoning or isn't feeling well.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that was always something I was afraid of. I

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Speaker 3: probably did not discuss sex as much with her as

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Speaker 3: I should have, but I thought she would be responsible

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Speaker 3: enough to use contraception.

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Speaker 2: So tell us what was it like for you for

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Speaker 2: your husband to hear the news, how you felt about it?

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Speaker 3: Actually, as I remember it, I kind of jokingly made

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Speaker 3: that remark when we were out eating, and she, as

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Speaker 3: I recall, she didn't indicate positively. Then she called and

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Speaker 3: talked to her dad in the hotel room. That's how

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Speaker 3: I remember it. Then she came over. You know, at

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Speaker 3: that point, her dad and I were not opposed to abortion,

284
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Speaker 3: but she was, and that was fine. That was not

285
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Speaker 3: something that we were going to push on her at all.

286
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Speaker 3: So she came over. I took her to the grocery

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Speaker 3: store to pick out some foods that helped me because

288
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Speaker 3: I had had a lot of morning sickness when I

289
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Speaker 3: was pregnant. That's probably how it just entered my mind.

290
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Speaker 2: So you kind of snapped into supportive mode of taking

291
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Speaker 2: a shop and getting her the right foods to help

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Speaker 2: with the morning sickness.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And what was going on for you and your

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Speaker 1: husband as you were digesting this news.

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Speaker 3: The first thing we did was make an appointment with

296
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Speaker 3: the adoption agency and we went and discussed things with them,

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Speaker 3: My husband and I did. At that point we made

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Speaker 3: an appointment for the three of us, and this probably

299
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Speaker 3: is when things started deteriorating for me, because we told

300
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Speaker 3: Stephanie that we had made that appointment, and she said

301
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Speaker 3: she didn't want us to do that. She wanted to

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Speaker 3: do it herself.

303
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Speaker 1: Stephanie, can you tell us what happened for you?

304
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Speaker 4: I feel like that was when my mom was most supportive.

305
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,479
Speaker 4: That was always supportive, but mom, I do remember her

306
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 4: taking me grocery shopping, and I remember she sewed maternity

307
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 4: clothesman because that's something she could do. I don't remember

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Speaker 4: anything about the adoption agency when I hear that they

309
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Speaker 4: went first, like I should be the one to go

310
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Speaker 4: there and make that appointment. In retrospect, I really don't

311
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 4: remember anything other than going there by myself, so I

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00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 4: don't know all the details perfectly.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask how you felt about being pregnant.

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Speaker 4: I didn't want to be, but it was clear what

315
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 4: the path was, and then it was like, I'm doing this.

316
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Speaker 4: Someone else is going to have a wonderful child, and

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Speaker 4: I've got decent genetics, so that's good too.

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Speaker 1: I guess what I'm asking is, did you worry at

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Speaker 1: all about what your other classmates would think, and your peers,

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Speaker 1: because you know, most people were at a different stage.

321
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Speaker 1: They were just going through college. And did you worry

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Speaker 1: about how you might feel when somebody else is going

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Speaker 1: to raise the baby? How did all those things sit

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Speaker 1: with you while you were going through the pregnancy.

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Speaker 4: I didn't worry about what other people would think. I

326
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 4: was in a fairly liberal school in a small department,

327
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Speaker 4: so everyone was really supportive. My professors, my peers, they

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00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,000
Speaker 4: were wonderful. My partner was wonderful. I don't think I'm

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00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 4: as maternal instinctually as a lot of people, so I

330
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 4: didn't feel super sad about it. My partner and I

331
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 4: had planned on getting married and having children at some point.

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Speaker 4: We hadn't talked about the specifics, and we end up

333
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Speaker 4: breaking up later, But yeah, I didn't feel that sad.

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Speaker 2: Your mom said the beginning of the deterioration happened when

335
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Speaker 2: they went to the adoption agency and they got rebuffed

336
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Speaker 2: and told you wanted to go. But what was your

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00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 2: experience about when the problems began, or when it became

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Speaker 2: clear that this is not just a supportive thing for

339
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Speaker 2: your mom, but she's having issues with it.

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Speaker 4: What I remember is when she told me I wasn't

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Speaker 4: allowed to tell anybody in the family that I was pregnant,

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Speaker 4: and she was like, you're not going to come home

343
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Speaker 4: while you're pregnant because nobody should know.

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Speaker 2: And how did you feel about that, that this is

345
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Speaker 2: to be now hidden or a secret or something shameful?

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Speaker 4: I certainly didn't feel good. Again, my partner's family was

347
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 4: very supportive, and so that I just kind of let

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00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 4: myself be surrounded by that family and my friends. And

349
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Speaker 4: it's not like I talked to my cousins on a

350
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 4: regular basis or anything. I was the kind of kid,

351
00:18:16,879 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 4: for the most part, who did what their parents told

352
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,759
Speaker 4: them to, and I kind of was just doing that.

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Speaker 2: Again, I guess, did you understand why your mom wanted

354
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Speaker 2: you to keep this secret?

355
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Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean, I know she was very ashamed the

356
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Speaker 4: fact that I got pregnant, or that's what I assume

357
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Speaker 4: I shouldn't say. I know how she feels.

358
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Speaker 1: Do you want to ask her right now how she

359
00:18:36,399 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 1: felt at that time, since for twenty five years you've

360
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:39,999
Speaker 1: never asked her that.

361
00:18:41,639 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, go ahead and ask her, how did you feel? Mom?

362
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Speaker 3: That was something that was unacceptable in my family as

363
00:18:50,919 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 3: I was growing up, not that it never happened, but

364
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 3: it was something that my parents would have been extremely

365
00:18:58,879 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 3: upset about.

366
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 2: The sex out of wedlock or the getting pregnant. I mean,

367
00:19:02,679 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 2: obviously one requires the other.

368
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 3: Well, for them, probably the sex out of wedlock. For me,

369
00:19:09,159 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 3: it was the irresponsibility of not using contraception. For me,

370
00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 3: that was the unacceptable part. And at that point, both

371
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,999
Speaker 3: of my parents had died, so it was something they

372
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 3: would have been ashamed of.

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Speaker 2: And Sephanie, continue asking your mom about how she felt

374
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,360
Speaker 2: and what she envisioned, because there's a lot there. She's

375
00:19:28,399 --> 00:19:31,919
Speaker 2: saying that her parents would have been really upset by that,

376
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 2: but they weren't alive at that point. So maybe find

377
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,279
Speaker 2: out from your mom who she was most concerned about.

378
00:19:38,879 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 2: If would get out, what that would do.

379
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 4: I get the sense, mom, that you were ashamed that

380
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,999
Speaker 4: I got pregnant. That was what it was about. Who

381
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:48,279
Speaker 4: are the people you were ashamed of?

382
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 3: Find out your grandmother, my siblings, and perhaps as much

383
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 3: as anything, it would be a reflection on me.

384
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Speaker 1: What would it say about you that I.

385
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 3: Hadn't been responsible in discussing these things with her, that.

386
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Speaker 2: You didn't raise her right?

387
00:20:10,879 --> 00:20:15,639
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, in this particular point, yes, I mean, she

388
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 3: is a wonderful person, and she has so many good qualities,

389
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 3: and we are proud of her.

390
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Speaker 4: It feels like this is the only thing that matters

391
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,719
Speaker 4: when it comes to how you feel about me.

392
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 3: I think I've gotten over that. To tell you the truth,

393
00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:32,719
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what bothers me, because I've thought about

394
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 3: this a lot. What bothers me is that you have

395
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:44,719
Speaker 3: never said to me that you made a mistake. I

396
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,439
Speaker 3: can forgive a mistake, but I get the feeling that

397
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 3: you don't think you made a mistake.

398
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 4: I think I've been very clear that I made that mistake,

399
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 4: and then I did the best I could in that situation.

400
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 4: Maybe I didn't say that directly to you.

401
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 3: Your grandmother and I were out to visit you, and

402
00:21:02,919 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 3: she looked at the picture of Danielle and she hadn't known.

403
00:21:06,399 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 4: Who she was, and she said she wished she would.

404
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,719
Speaker 3: Have yes, and she did get to meet her. But

405
00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 3: I said, in your defense, you made a mistake, and

406
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 3: you turned and said no.

407
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 4: I heard that as saying that Danielle was a mistake

408
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 4: instead of that I made a mistake. Because I have

409
00:21:23,639 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 4: been very upfront with anyone I talked to, saying that

410
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 4: I made a mistake and I did the best I could,

411
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,759
Speaker 4: and I think you know this is that she has

412
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,759
Speaker 4: wonderful parents and is a wonderful human. I think I

413
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 4: heard that differently when you said it, because I've always

414
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 4: admitted that was idiotic. I mean to that unprotected sex

415
00:21:42,639 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 4: and expect not to get pregnant just stupid. Clearly, that's

416
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 4: a mistake, But I don't want to say that Danielle

417
00:21:48,679 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 4: is a mistake.

418
00:21:49,679 --> 00:21:50,959
Speaker 3: That's not what I was saying.

419
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 4: I'm just saying that. I think I heard that differently

420
00:21:52,879 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 4: because it was a mistake to get pregnant, but to

421
00:21:54,439 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 4: call a human a mistake is not okay, Rona.

422
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: What does that do for you to hear Stephanie say

423
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: I made a mistake by not using contraception. How does

424
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: that help you with your shame?

425
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 3: I think I've gotten over the shame. It makes me

426
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 3: feel good to hear her say that. All along, from

427
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 3: the moment she said she didn't want us to be

428
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,719
Speaker 3: involved in the adoption process, I felt that Stephanie was

429
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 3: rejecting me, and as things have gone on for the

430
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 3: past years, I felt like she doesn't approve of me,

431
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 3: and so I've just distanced myself.

432
00:22:35,679 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 2: What's so interesting is that that's such a mutual feeling

433
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 2: you both have that each doesn't approve of the other.

434
00:22:44,919 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: You feel, Rona that Sephanie doesn't approve of you because

435
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 2: you felt pushed away when you were trying to help,

436
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 2: and Stephanie you felt very judged by your mom, And

437
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: so you each have had your feelings hurt by the

438
00:22:58,639 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: other and felt pushed away and felt like the other

439
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 2: doesn't approve of how you handled the situation, which it

440
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: sounds like you look mostly on the same page about.

441
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 4: I think the biggest difference was that she wouldn't let

442
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:13,799
Speaker 4: me tell any of the family.

443
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 2: Were you able to express that to her at the

444
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,959
Speaker 2: time about what that meant for you, were able to

445
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 2: have that conversation.

446
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 4: I didn't know how to have that conversation then. I

447
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 4: wasn't that emotionally intelligent back then.

448
00:23:24,399 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: Well don't tell her now how what that was like,

449
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 2: having that edypt come down that you may not tell anyone.

450
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 4: I was so incredibly hurtful to be hidden, being sent

451
00:23:34,399 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 4: off away like I didn't count as a person anymore

452
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 4: because I was pregnant and so grateful I had my

453
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 4: partner's family to take me in I spent holidays with them,

454
00:23:48,399 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 4: and then for Danielle to be a secret it ate

455
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 4: at me more and more. How can this human be

456
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 4: a secret? She has this family and that's not okay.

457
00:23:56,159 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: And finally I thought about putting the pictures away because

458
00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 4: Mom was coming out and she was bringing Grandma. I'm like, no,

459
00:23:59,879 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 4: I refuse. There's this point of like, I am not

460
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 4: doing this anymore. This is not okay, and I am

461
00:24:05,639 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 4: going to make sure that she's no longer a secret.

462
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: Was Danielle when she was no longer a secret?

463
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 4: Six or seven?

464
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 3: I think it was more like four.

465
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: But for several years she was a secret? Yes, Stephanie,

466
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,239
Speaker 1: can you tell your mom now what it was like

467
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: to have Danielle be a secret and how it made

468
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: you feel towards your mom?

469
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 4: It just felt so wrong, and I was probably ashamed

470
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 4: of myself that I had allowed that to happen. I mean, yeah,

471
00:24:41,679 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 4: I made one mistake, but that's one mistake that hats

472
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 4: and lots of people make, and I did the best

473
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 4: I could from there on, and that doesn't seem to

474
00:24:48,919 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 4: account for anything.

475
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 2: That's how it felt in whose eyes?

476
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 4: Moms, just moms, everyone else I've ever interacted with has

477
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 4: been so supportive, and I've been told so many times

478
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,039
Speaker 4: by so many of my friends how much they admire

479
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 4: what I did. Mom is the only one in my

480
00:25:05,639 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 4: life who's ever been negative about it. I feel angry.

481
00:25:09,399 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: Danielle's behal what about on yours?

482
00:25:12,679 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 4: And I guess I'm mind too. You guess I haven't

483
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 4: thought about it like that, but I'm definitely been angry

484
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 4: about it. Absolutely.

485
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that you said that you

486
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,959
Speaker 1: can't understand her being ashamed of a human, and you

487
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: were referring to Danielle, but I think you're also saying

488
00:25:30,399 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: I can't understand her being ashamed of me.

489
00:25:33,159 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

490
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: Can you talk more about that to her? Can you

491
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: let her know what that's like, because it seems like

492
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: underneath all of this, you and your mom really love

493
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: each other and this created so much pain and rejection

494
00:25:51,159 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 1: on both sides. Can you tell her how rejected you felt,

495
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: what it felt like to feel like she was ashamed

496
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: of you, even though you'd been such a good kid

497
00:26:02,879 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: your whole life.

498
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,519
Speaker 4: Mom so incredibly hurtful. I feel like the only thing

499
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 4: that matters my entire life is this one decision I

500
00:26:12,679 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 4: made when I was eighteen. It feels like nothing else matters,

501
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 4: and that's so incredibly hurtful. I feel like you're ashamed

502
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 4: of me. I feel what makes mistakes and I feel

503
00:26:28,439 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 4: like you can't forgive me for this one mistake.

504
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 3: Roh.

505
00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: No, what is it like to hear that from her?

506
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: And I want you to think about it, not in

507
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: terms of defending yourself, but more just imagining her experience,

508
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 1: because her experience might be different from yours, but just

509
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: knowing that that is her experience. What is it like

510
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: for you to know that your daughter feels that way.

511
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 3: I'm sorry that she talked to her. I'm sorry, I'm

512
00:26:55,919 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 3: sorry I gave you that impression. It took me years

513
00:27:01,679 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 3: to come to terms with my feelings about it. And

514
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: apparently I have not let you know.

515
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: When you're saying, apparently I have not let you know.

516
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 2: Had you thought you had let her know?

517
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,759
Speaker 3: No, we have had very few chances to talk just

518
00:27:22,879 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 3: the two of us. It seems like we would get

519
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: started on something and something would interrupt.

520
00:27:29,159 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: Who did you feel was the one creating distance between

521
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: the two of you? Did you experience it as Stephanie

522
00:27:36,399 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 2: pushing you away or as you pushing her? Like? Who

523
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: was taking distance from home.

524
00:27:41,679 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 3: In your eyes, I felt she was pushing me away.

525
00:27:45,639 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 3: Therefore I pushed back.

526
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: Why did you not try to initiate the conversation with

527
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: Stephanie to say, hey, let's figure this out.

528
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 3: You know, as time went on, more and more in

529
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: my family were aware of her, met her. Maybe I

530
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 3: felt there was progress.

531
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: Are you saying that the fears that you had about

532
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: what would happen if your family knew that she had

533
00:28:11,679 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: had Danielle didn't come to pass? Meaning people embrace Danielle,

534
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: people embrace Stephanie, that your fears didn't come true.

535
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: I would say they were less judgmental. Yeah, it was

536
00:28:26,879 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 3: freeing for me.

537
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 2: And did you let Stephanie know that you were feeling

538
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: differently about it because people were finding out and the

539
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 2: sky wasn't fooling?

540
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: No? Not In so many words, I guess I assumed

541
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: that she would think that was so right.

542
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: Often, when we see issues, especially between parents and their

543
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: adult children, they have so many similarities even though they

544
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: feel like they're very, very different. And the similarity here

545
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 1: is that you Rona wanted Stephanie to say, hey, listen,

546
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: I made a mistake by not using contraception, not Danielle's

547
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: a mistake, but I made a mistake by not being

548
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: responsible when I was having sex, And you, Stephanie, have

549
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: wanted your mother to acknowledge her mistake too, which is

550
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: I made a mistake by trying to hide something that

551
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,559
Speaker 1: was not shameful. I made a mistake by making you

552
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: feel ashamed of having this baby, which is not shameful.

553
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: And neither of you is saying that the other person

554
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: has said directly, I made this particular mistake, because you

555
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: both acknowledge that you made those mistakes. You, Stephanie said,

556
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: I don't feel like Danielle is a mistake, but I

557
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: made a mistake by not using contraception. I wasn't responsible,

558
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: And Rona, you're saying I made a mistake by being

559
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: ashamed of something that turned out not to be something

560
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 1: to be ashamed of. And I wonder if maybe you

561
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: guys could do that now, maybe Rona, you could start.

562
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Stephanie that it took me so long to

563
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: realize that I should not have been ashamed of you.

564
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: Can you tell her you made a mistake.

565
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 3: I made a mistake in not telling you sooner.

566
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: But the mistake also was I made a mistake in

567
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: hiding you. It was bad judgment on my part. Can

568
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: you tell her that because that seems to be the

569
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: way you feel now.

570
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: I don't know that I was capable of dealing it

571
00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,999
Speaker 3: with it. I wish I could have been more supportive.

572
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: I wish I did not feel that way, but I've

573
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: been working at coming to terms with it. I say

574
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,279
Speaker 3: to my I wish Stephanie had never gotten pregnant. I

575
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 3: love my granddaughter. I'm so glad she's in the world.

576
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:19,999
Speaker 3: And that's my conflict.

577
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: Why at this point do you wish that she had

578
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: never gotten pregnant? How has that affected your life Stephanie's life,

579
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: Because it seems like Stephanie's doing pretty well in life.

580
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:35,799
Speaker 1: She seems quite happy.

581
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: She is a wonderful person. She's very successful. She's excellent

582
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: at her work. I've watched her. I have great admiration

583
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 3: for that. I tell people how proud I am of her.

584
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: But she also seems to feel whole as a person. Yes,

585
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: so why do you wish that she hadn't gotten pregnant

586
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: given how it turned out?

587
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: That's my conundrum.

588
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: Well, let me suggest something to you, Rona. The part

589
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 2: that you are not talking about at all, but it

590
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: was extremely present for you at the time. Was that

591
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: when you're saying to Stephanie, I don't want people to

592
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: know that you're pregnant, and you're trying to keep that

593
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,999
Speaker 2: from family, who you assumed at the time, based on

594
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: your upbringing, that people would be extremely judgmental, that people

595
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: would look at Stephanie very very differently, that they would

596
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: look at you very very differently, that they would judge

597
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,039
Speaker 2: you as her parent because she got pregnant. That was

598
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: the fear that you had, And the part that you

599
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: don't talk about is that when there's a secret, even

600
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 2: if the secret is being kept for a little bit

601
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: of time, you still walk around with shame. You still

602
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: walk around with a worry of if they found out,

603
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: they would treat me differently, they would look at me differently.

604
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: So the fact that you tried to keep the secret

605
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: didn't mean that you weren't impacted by it, that you

606
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: weren't feeling shameful yourself. As you said about that, I

607
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: the mother here, so it must have been a miss

608
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 2: on my part. That's what people are going to think.

609
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: I think that's the difficulty that made it hard for

610
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,759
Speaker 2: you to reconcile and makes it still hard for you

611
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: to reconcile those two things. You're not adding in the

612
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: piece about the personal consequence to you in your feelings

613
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: for many years.

614
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: I think you're right. I did feel it was shame

615
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 3: for me. It was a shortfall on my part.

616
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 4: You told me in the card just a couple of

617
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,279
Speaker 4: days ago. You raise your children the best you can,

618
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 4: then you send them off so they can do what

619
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: they want, and you can't be responsible that anymore. And

620
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 4: I feel like you're taking reverse responsibility for something the

621
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:48,999
Speaker 4: choice I made. But that's not your fault.

622
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: It's definitely what you're missing here is that your mum

623
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: had said she had those fears that people would find

624
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: out and be very judgmental. And the part that I

625
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: was highlighting is she walked around with those fears for

626
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: a very very long time. That was a consequence for her.

627
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 2: It wasn't your responsibility, but there was a concert quence

628
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: for her again in her head, in her feelings that

629
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: played out for many years. And that's again not your responsibility,

630
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: not your fault, but it's important for you to acknowledge

631
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: that that was a consequence for her regardless even though

632
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: it wasn't your fault. Do you see that?

633
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes sense.

634
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: Can you acknowledge that to her?

635
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 4: I can see how that was very difficult for you.

636
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 3: More thank you.

637
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: This is the first time, Stephanie, that you're saying.

638
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 4: That, Yeah, it's hard for me to separate her feelings

639
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 4: and the consequences for her from the like value judgment

640
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 4: of Danielle's life. I've never said that because until you

641
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 4: said that, I guess I didn't really separate her feelings

642
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 4: of shame from a logical truth, perhaps right, because I

643
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 4: don't think she should have felt shame. I don't want

644
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 4: her to feel shame about Danielle. Then I'd never thought

645
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 4: of it in terms of just the absolute her feelings.

646
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: And this is where it makes it hard for the

647
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: two of you to connect, because it's hard to separate

648
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: out one thing from the other, so for you to

649
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: really understand her experience. At that time, she's not saying

650
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: that Danielle is shameful. She's saying I felt that I

651
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: had been a bad mother, or that other people would

652
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: think that I had been a bad mother because you

653
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: got pregnant and didn't use contraception. And that has nothing

654
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: to do with Danielle. That has to do with Wow,

655
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: I really tried my best. It was really important to me.

656
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: I think your mom took great pride in being mother,

657
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: and every parent makes mistakes, but I think what's really

658
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: hard is for parents to say I might have made

659
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: a mistake. And it doesn't mean that the fact that

660
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: you got pregnant was something your mom did wrong, but

661
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: in her mind, that's where she went with it. That

662
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: I should have talked to her more about this. We

663
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: didn't really talk about sex. Maybe I should have had

664
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: more conversations with her. Maybe I should have been more

665
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: hands on about the people she was dating. Who doesn't

666
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: instruct her daughter well about contraception. So that was what

667
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: your mom's experience was, and at that age it's very

668
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: hard to see, especially given everything you had on your

669
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: plate at the time. But I wonder if now, twenty

670
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: five years later, you can imagine what that must have

671
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: felt like for your mom walking around in her community,

672
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: in her era and her generation and the way she

673
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: was brought up, that that had a personal impact on her. Again,

674
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 1: as guy was saying, not your responsibility, not your fault,

675
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: but just that she did have this experience and maybe

676
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: she needs that acknowledge too. Oh, I have compassion for

677
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: what my mom was going through at the time, and

678
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: she made choices that were very hurtful to me, but

679
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: I understand that they came from this place of inner

680
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 1: turmoil that must have been very, very painful for her.

681
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so conflated with my own feelings of being

682
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 4: all that hurt. But that makes sense that I need

683
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 4: to figure out a way to have more of a

684
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 4: sense of that.

685
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: They're both there. It doesn't mean that you didn't feel

686
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: and don't feel hurt by what happened, right, Yeah, it

687
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: means and in addition to the hurt, I have some

688
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 1: compassion for what she was going through. That was a

689
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: very very difficult time in her life too.

690
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 4: Intellectually, that makes a lot of sense. I think to

691
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 4: really feel it, I need to do a little work

692
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: to get there, But I'm certain I can.

693
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: Look. You both need to do little bit of work

694
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: to get there, because this is one of those situations

695
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 2: where both of you have very complicated, strong feelings about

696
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: one another and about the situation, and some of those

697
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: feelings are warm and positive, and your mum admires you

698
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: and respects you and thinks the world of you. On

699
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: the one hand, there's this one thing that she feels

700
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: so differently about or felt so differently about, and you

701
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: felt supported initially, and then you felt so rejected and

702
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: so alienated, and even then you can see no, I

703
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: know she's trying. She has a good relationship with Danielle.

704
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 2: It's very very mixed. And when we're not used to

705
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 2: sitting with that contradiction of feeling very warmly on the

706
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: one hand, very hurt on the other for many years,

707
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 2: it really feels like I have to make a choice.

708
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: It's either or when it's both. And what happened with

709
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 2: the two of you is that you experience the more

710
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: challenging feelings as pushing each of you away from the

711
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: other person, and then you missed the wish to connect

712
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: or the wish that things had been different. And you

713
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: need to spot that going forward because both those things

714
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 2: are going to be there.

715
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

716
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was curious about one thing. How do you

717
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: talk about Danielle together? Are you able to delight and

718
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: to bond around her or is that fraud as well?

719
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 3: I think it's great. I mean she's a wonderful young woman.

720
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 3: Or proud of her. We've always had a good relationship

721
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: with her and her parents and her younger brother. We

722
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 3: consider our grandson too.

723
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: Is that something you feel brings you a little bit

724
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: closer when you talk about Danielle? I think, so, what

725
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: about you, Stephanie.

726
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 4: I feel like there's always that layer of this shouldn't

727
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 4: have happened. Perhaps I'm just so sensitized because we've had

728
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 4: so many arguments about it, but it doesn't feel just

729
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 4: one hundred percent positive. I guess I feel the judgment

730
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 4: from her so often around so many conversations.

731
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: In your letter, you say that this still comes up

732
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: all the time, and I'm wondering, how does it.

733
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 4: The last time that I remembered it was really bad.

734
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 4: It was a few years ago and I was going

735
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 4: to Norway and I was going to visit family anyway.

736
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 4: She just started yelling at me, and then she said,

737
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 4: you're not even sorry about Danielle. And that was just

738
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 4: a few years ago.

739
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: Rona, Were you upset that she was going to Norway?

740
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: I have no recollection of this conversation. I was thrilled

741
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 3: she was going to Norway. I was a little upset

742
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 3: when she was thinking about seeing her father's relatives at

743
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 3: Norway and not mine.

744
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: I didn't get any response from your relatives. We were

745
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 4: out of the back porch and you told me how

746
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 4: upset you were about Danielle and that I wasn't even

747
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 4: sorry about it. I talked to my best friend about

748
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 4: it right afterward.

749
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: This is what we call kitchen sink fighting. One issue

750
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: comes up where somebody is upset about something, and then

751
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: they bring up all the old arguments, But you're not

752
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: really talking about the one thing that's right in front

753
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: of you, which is you're not seeing my relatives. And

754
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: I think what that brought up for both of you

755
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: was the core of the Danielle argument, which is not

756
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 1: about Danielle, but it's about you, Stephanie. Are not seeing

757
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: my relatives. Now, you might have had good reasons. You

758
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: said you tried to contact them, it doesn't matter. From

759
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: your mom's point of view, she felt hurt that you

760
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: were not seeing her relatives. Maybe she was embarrassed. Maybe

761
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: there was again that how does this look? Or you

762
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 1: don't respect me or whatever came up for her around

763
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: the fact that you were seeing your dad's relatives and

764
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: not hers, And so it went to that core of

765
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 1: and how could you not use contraception? And for you, Stephanie,

766
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: it went to the same place, which was, she's blaming

767
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: me for something that I should not be blamed for.

768
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: And that's the argument. You guys have a lot. I'm

769
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: displeasing mom, I feel blamed. I don't feel I should

770
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: be blamed for this. And the reason that this keeps

771
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: coming up is because you haven't really resolved what happened

772
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: with Danielle, which was your mom said, I just want

773
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: you to acknowledge that you made a mistake not using contraception,

774
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 1: and you're saying to your mom, I just want you

775
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that the way you handle this hurt me

776
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: deeply and that you made a mistake by handling it

777
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: that way.

778
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: Well not. I want to ask you something in this

779
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: Norway example. I know you don't remember getting upset, but

780
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: clearly your feelings were hurt because you were like, she

781
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: got in touch with my husband's family but not with mine,

782
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: regardless of the why. Right now, I'm just curious about

783
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 2: how easy or difficult you find it to express it

784
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: to Stephanie when your feelings are hurt. Is that something

785
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: you struggle to do to acknowledge my feelings are hurt

786
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 2: by that, and to say that rather than to go

787
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: to anger.

788
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 3: I consider myself a rational person. I was hurt that

789
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: she wasn't seeing my family, and she did end up

790
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: seeing my family, and I was very happy about that.

791
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 2: What I'm asking Rona is are you able to say

792
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: to Stephanie, Hey, I'm the hurt that you're going all

793
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 2: the way there. I have family there and you're not

794
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: going to see them. That's something you struggle to say.

795
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: You acknowledge it to yourself, but you don't express it

796
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: to Stephanie. Instead, you get angry. And I'm wondering if

797
00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: part of why you don't express it is what you

798
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 2: said a moment ago, which is I'm a rational person.

799
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: And often people who think of themselves as rational people

800
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: don't like to feel too emotional, and they don't like

801
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 2: to own that their feelings are hurt a lot of

802
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 2: the times, because sometimes that's not rational. And I'm curious

803
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: about whether that's something you would feel comfortable doing, saying

804
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: to Stephanie, hey, you know what, this hurt my feelings.

805
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: To be honest with you, would you feel comfortable saying

806
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: something like that to Stephanie.

807
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: I would have to think about it, because I'm always

808
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: afraid of saying the wrong thing. So sometimes I just

809
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 3: don't say it.

810
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: But you're saying now, I don't say it because I'm

811
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: worried about the reaction. What I'm asking is about your

812
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 2: comfort level of saying it, just you owning that vulnerability,

813
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: which can feel difficult. I'm asking regardless, do you feel

814
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: comfortable owning that vulnerability with Stephanie and saying, you know,

815
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: the things that happen that hurt my feelings? What would

816
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 2: that be like to say something like that to her?

817
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: And that would be scary?

818
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 1: Can you talk about what's scary about it?

819
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 3: Well, it's scary because I don't know how she's going

820
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: to react. It makes me vulnerable, not in control.

821
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: And it puts you in touch with the very feeling

822
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: that you might otherwise be able to push off a bit.

823
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: And I think that's the scary part.

824
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: The irony of being worried about the reaction that you're

825
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: going to get is that the way that you do

826
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: express your displeasure gets a bad reaction. It's guaranteed to

827
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: get a bad reaction because it comes across as blaming,

828
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: as disapproving of her. It projects your pain onto her

829
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: and that she has to hold all those feelings that

830
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: you don't want to express. But when you're more vulnerable

831
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: and tender, which doesn't mean you're not rational, you're actually

832
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: being even more rational because you're in touch directly with

833
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 1: what you're trying to communicate, which is you're going all

834
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: the way to Norway. I feel hurt that you're not

835
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: going to be seeing my relatives, and it's a statement

836
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: about you. It's not blaming her, it's not getting angry

837
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: with her. It's just telling her here's something to know

838
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: about me. I feel hurt that you're not seeing my relatives,

839
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: and then she can do with that what she wants.

840
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: Hopefully she'd won't hear that is blame, right, Stephanie. You

841
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: hear that as Oh I'm hearing that more as a request,

842
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: and let me explain why I'm not or why am

843
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: I be able to or how we can work this out.

844
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: That would be a very new kind of interaction for

845
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: the two of you to have. And Stephanie's smiling right

846
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: now because I think that that would be something that

847
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: she would welcome.

848
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 4: Sure, absolutely.

849
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: How do you think you would have responded if, in

850
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: that conversation your mum would have just said to you, oh,

851
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 2: you know, my feelings are kind of hurt. You're going

852
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: all the way there and at the moment you don't

853
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: have any plans to see my family. What would you

854
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: have said?

855
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 4: It would have felt a lot better. I think I

856
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 4: would have said, I'm sorry, I want to visit your

857
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 4: family too, I really do. I just haven't heard that

858
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 4: from them yet, and I don't want to impose yes.

859
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: I would add one thing if you start with mom,

860
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 2: thanks for sharing that with me. I know that's not

861
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: easy for you. And then the rest because it's really

862
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: scary for her, and your mom has a lot of

863
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: fears that turn out to be okay, like the fear

864
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: of how the family would react to Danielle and the

865
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 2: fear about you not seeing her family. So it's important

866
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: if she's able to express that vulnerability, for you to

867
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: acknowledge that was a difficult thing for her and then

868
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: do that reassurance of the response.

869
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 4: That makes a lot of sense.

870
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: And Grona, you said something that I think is important,

871
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: which is that it's very uncomfortable for you to feel

872
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: like you're not in control, which is like most of us,

873
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: we all want to feel like we're in control of

874
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: a situation. But one thing we can control is how

875
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: we approach other people. If you want to feel in

876
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: control and have true control, you can control how you communicate.

877
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: And that doesn't control the other person's response, but it

878
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: certainly influences the other person's response much more than if

879
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: you try to control with the way you communicate, because

880
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: you probably won't get the reaction that you want, and

881
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: then you're both going to feel very out of control.

882
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 1: Seems to be what happens. So I wonder if we

883
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: could hear one more example of how Danielle and this

884
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: argument between you still comes up.

885
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: I feel that things have progressed. She was here for

886
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 3: the funeral, she was here at Christmas time. I thought

887
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: we were making progress, but maybe we're just ignoring it.

888
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 4: I agree this gotten better. It certainly has gotten better.

889
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 4: There was a time, you know, in Danielle's first ten years,

890
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 4: I would only come home for three days because it

891
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: felt like you were really trying your best to hold

892
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 4: it together, and three days.

893
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: Was as long as it lasted, and then what would happen.

894
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 4: It felt like walking on eggshells, and it still does sometimes,

895
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 4: just not nearly as often. Like I had to read

896
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 4: her mind, and if I didn't read her mind correctly,

897
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 4: she'd get upset about something like I was home last

898
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 4: summer for my uncle's memorial and she was upset with

899
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 4: my dad's brother about something, and she just starts. It's

900
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: not technically yelling, but speaking to me in a harsh

901
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 4: voice about something. It's not very often that we actually

902
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 4: talk about Danielle. It's more that my sense is these

903
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 4: upset feelings about her come out because Mom's trying to

904
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 4: ignore them and she's trying to be a good or everything.

905
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 4: It's definitely gotten so much better, absolutely, but not good enough.

906
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: For us to be close, because when she has strong feelings,

907
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 2: she does struggle to express them in terms of the vulnerability,

908
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: not anger. When she has feelings of feeling her or

909
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 2: worried or anxious or fearful, those she has trouble expressing.

910
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: And I'm going to suggest Stephanie that just going forward

911
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: in general, when you see your mom get angry, I

912
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: would try and stop her and say, Mom, I suspect

913
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 2: that underneath that there's some hurt or there's something a

914
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 2: little bit more tender and vulnerable going on. Couldn't you

915
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: take a minute try and get in touch, because I

916
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: am very much interested in hearing that part and I

917
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: will respond, well, it, but I would like to know

918
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: what's actually in your heart, not the cover for it,

919
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 2: which is just getting angry.

920
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I like the idea.

921
00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Rona, what would happen between you and your

922
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 1: husband when you would get angry about something? How did

923
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: the two of you talk about things?

924
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 3: He just simply did not get angry. We rarely argued.

925
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 3: Do you remember us, Stephanie arguing never?

926
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 4: I didn't know if you just didn't argue in front

927
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 4: of me or didn't argue, it was rare. I feel

928
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 4: like if you did get angry, Dad would just kind

929
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 4: of go away for a little while and let you

930
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 4: calm down. He didn't deal with it, not so much

931
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 4: if you had an issue with him, but if you

932
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 4: were angry tangentially about me or something else, that he

933
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 4: just kind of let it go and then you'd calm down.

934
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: But what about when you were angry with him? Were

935
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: you able to tell him that you were hurt? Or

936
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: would you get angry in the way that you tuck

937
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 1: to Stephanie when you're angry? And what would he do?

938
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: Because I imagine in however many decades you were married,

939
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: that at certain times you got angry.

940
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 3: He would rarely respond with anger to my anger.

941
00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: But would he respond in a way that made you

942
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: feel heard or made you feel like he understood, or

943
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: would work with you on whatever the issue was.

944
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 3: Not necessarily, to be honest, I don't ever remember him

945
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 3: saying I'm sorry.

946
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: So there's a lot in the family of people not

947
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: being able to say to the other person, I made

948
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 1: a mistake.

949
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: I want to get back to something that you just

950
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 2: said a moment ago, and both of you said things

951
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:26,280
Speaker 2: are better.

952
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 3: At the funeral, she put her arm around me. I

953
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 3: do not remember the last time she voluntarily put her

954
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 3: arm around me.

955
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 2: What did that feel like? At the funeral?

956
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 3: It felt wonderful?

957
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 2: And when is the last time you put your arm

958
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: around her?

959
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 3: She shies away from hugs, so I hardly ever even

960
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 3: try to give her a hug. I like the hugger

961
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 3: before she leaves, but she really is not a hugger,

962
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: and I tried to respect that.

963
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 2: So that was a nice gesture, Stephanie, because it was

964
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 2: very meaningful fear Mom to do that. What would have

965
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 2: to change, Stephanie, between you and your mom for you

966
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: to feel comfortable asking for or giving a hug from her.

967
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 4: I would have to feel like I'm not ever walking

968
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 4: on eggshells. I guess really what comes down to is

969
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 4: that you'd have to be able to talk to me

970
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 4: about how you're feeling.

971
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 3: For me, a hug is a way to express what

972
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 3: I can't put in words.

973
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 2: Well, did you hear what Stephanie just said about what

974
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 2: would make her feel comfortable with hugs with you? What

975
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: needs to happen for her to feel comfortable?

976
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 3: Yes?

977
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: Yes, She says that what would make her comfortable is

978
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: that she needs to see some vulnerability from you, a

979
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: little less of the rational and a little more connected

980
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: to your feelings in a most human way. That would

981
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: make her feel safer, because I think that your rational

982
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 2: comes across really stoic, maybe cold even, And so it's

983
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: scary to hug someone if you can't tell what they're feeling.

984
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 3: And I can try to do that, but that makes

985
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 3: me very vulnerable.

986
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 2: Correct. It also puts you in touch with your feelings.

987
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 2: It also allows you to express the feelings directly rather

988
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 2: than have to cover with anger or frustration or pushing away.

989
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 2: So it has many benefits, not just hugs. And yes,

990
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 2: it's scary to do. It's taking emotional risks when you

991
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: do it. But to fix your relationship, you'll each have

992
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 2: to take emotional risks to get closer after so many years.

993
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 2: And I'm curious about whether you each feel ready to

994
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 2: take emotional risks, small ones with one another going forward

995
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 2: in order to get closer. Noly, do you feel ready,

996
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: willing able to maybe experiment with that a little bit?

997
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 3: Yes, but she's leaving as soon as we're done here, She's.

998
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 2: Leaving and you'll never see her again.

999
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 3: And I'm not good on the telephone. Can't on the telephone.

1000
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: Perhaps it has to happen with video calls, which you're

1001
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 2: a little better. Well, perhaps it has to happen more

1002
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: in person. There might be more reason now and more

1003
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: ability now to visit one another. Stephanie, do you feel

1004
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: ready to take Yeah? Emotional Well that was quick, Okay, good,

1005
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: But you do understand how scary this is for your money?

1006
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, Because I feel like it's the same kind of

1007
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 4: fear I have about hugs or whatever.

1008
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: I think that's a great comparison that where she feels

1009
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: comfortable with hugs, you feel comfortable with words, and especially

1010
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: now that your dad is not here, I think it

1011
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: gives the two of you an opportunity to start a

1012
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: new chapter in your own relationship. Yeah, it might highlight

1013
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: for the two of you that we all have a

1014
00:55:57,240 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: limited time here and so you could continue with the

1015
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: patterns that have been going on for twenty five years,

1016
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: or you could do something different now that might feel

1017
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: so much warmer, richer. We're loving, We're connected, and I

1018
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: think you both really really want even if it's scary,

1019
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: and I think you've wanted for a long time, both

1020
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 1: of you.

1021
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 3: This has helped me to hear things verbalized. I've just

1022
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 3: not been able to verbalize them.

1023
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could both tell each other what

1024
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: mistakes you have made so the other person can hear it. Stephanie,

1025
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: can you start and don't do butts and caveats. And

1026
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 1: we know that Danielle is not a mistake. Nobody here

1027
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: is saying that. Can you just name the mistake that

1028
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: you made and ask your mom if she can forgive

1029
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: you for that mistake.

1030
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 4: I made a mistake when I didn't use contraception. Can

1031
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 4: you forgive me for that?

1032
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

1033
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, Rona. That sounded so honest and authentic.

1034
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: An immediate and immediate There was no hesitation there was

1035
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: no pause, your voice was strong, it sounded extremely genuine.

1036
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is genuine.

1037
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: And Stephanie, I can see that you're tearing up and

1038
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: this is felt very meaningful to you. Yeah, you might

1039
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: not fully trust it because it's new, but I want

1040
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: you to take in what just happened, because I think

1041
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: you've been waiting a long time for it, and it's

1042
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: probably been there a long time. But as your mom said,

1043
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: she's not really good at verbalizing, but she's probably felt

1044
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: that forgiveness for a long time and it just had

1045
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: never been spoken between the two of you. Thank you

1046
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: and Rona. Can you ask Stephanie to forgive you for

1047
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: the mistake that you made, which was making her feel

1048
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 1: shunned like a secret, like she was shameful.

1049
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I made you feel like you were shunned.

1050
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 3: I made a mistake. If I were to do it again,

1051
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 3: I would handle things differently. I'm sorry.

1052
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: Tell her how you would handle it if you could

1053
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: do it again now, knowing what you know now.

1054
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 3: I would not have hesitated to share with others your pregnancy.

1055
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 3: It was my feelings that were the problem. I'm sorry.

1056
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 1: Thank you and Stephanie. That doesn't mean that you're not

1057
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: hurt by it. Do you understand the difference?

1058
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, I hear you when you say that it

1059
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 4: was about your feelings and that you would have done

1060
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 4: it differently, And I appreciate that, and I forgive you

1061
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 4: for the way things were with making those choices.

1062
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 3: I really would do it differently. I'm sorry.

1063
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: This is one thing that came across in the letter

1064
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 2: where you said we both want to have a closer relationship,

1065
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: and people don't say that, but wow, you really both

1066
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: want to have a closer relationship and have wanted to

1067
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: for a very long time. And I think it's so

1068
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: important that you both understand that the same desire that

1069
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 2: you have. I wish we were closer. I wish that

1070
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: stuff hadn't happened in that way. Is a very mutual feeling.

1071
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: And the part that trips people up is they feel like, well,

1072
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: now I have to not feel any of the hurt.

1073
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: You can still feel all the hurt. Nobody's saying forget

1074
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: all the hurt, forget all the pain. We're saying, now

1075
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: you have an opportunity to see what happens when you

1076
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: aren't living under the cloud of something that was a

1077
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: huge rift. In your relationship, and that you start to

1078
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: repair it, not that it all just goes away magically,

1079
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: but that you start to repair it and you start

1080
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: to talk about it differently, and you start to really

1081
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: look at who you are to each other now as

1082
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: mother and daughter, because you two both want something and

1083
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: you're both equally terrified of it. We want to help

1084
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: you get through the terror.

1085
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 3: A little bit before you were born, I wanted you

1086
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 3: more than anything, and you've been a wonderful, wonderful daughter.

1087
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 3: You were a wonderful child. We always love you, and

1088
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 3: I am proud of you.

1089
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 4: Thank you for saying it.

1090
01:00:59,080 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 3: Means a lot.

1091
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: Did you wonder whether she loved you in that way

1092
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: or was proud of you?

1093
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 4: Absolutely?

1094
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: You didn't know that for sure.

1095
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 4: Always known Dad loved me and I was proud of me.

1096
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 4: But I kind of felt like his love was always unconditional,

1097
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 4: and moms felt conditional, and I kind of wondered a

1098
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 4: couple of years ago, I was wondering, like I, I

1099
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 4: wonder if you want an advocate.

1100
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 3: Oh, more than anything. Yeah, When I was little, I

1101
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: would say to my mother, I love you and I

1102
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 3: like you, and I can say that to you, I

1103
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 3: love you and I like you.

1104
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 4: I love you too, Thank.

1105
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: You, Royan. That was you being vulnerable. You got emotional

1106
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: a little bit when you were saying it. This is

1107
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 2: you being vulnerable and opening up. And this is you

1108
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 2: Stephanie making it safe for her and responding in a

1109
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 2: lovely way. And I'm glad you did that role. And

1110
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: I'm glad you took that risk right now.

1111
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: And do you see the reaction on Stephanie's face? You

1112
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: see how much you touched that little girl that you

1113
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: wanted so badly by telling her I love you and

1114
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: I like you. Because there are two different things.

1115
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, they are.

1116
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 2: Rona and Stephanie. We have some advice for you, and

1117
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 2: it's in multiple parts. Here's the first part. We know

1118
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 2: you're both grieving the loss of your dad, Stephanie and

1119
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 2: your husband, Rona. We know Rona that you don't love

1120
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 2: the phone, but you did a great job today on

1121
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: the Zoom call. So we would like you both to

1122
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: have one zoom call with one another this week, and

1123
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 2: we'd like you, in that call to each share two

1124
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 2: difficult moments that you've had around the grieving. It could

1125
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 2: be moments where you were missing him very much, where

1126
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 2: you were feeling very very sad, where you were feeling

1127
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: worried about the future, whatever the vulnerable feeling is. Because

1128
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 2: we're going for sharing something that's difficult, we want you

1129
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 2: to each share two moments like that with the other person,

1130
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 2: and when you do that, we would like the other

1131
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 2: person to respond in a very simple way, no advice,

1132
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: just I understand how you feel. I get it. I'm

1133
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 2: so sorry that you're hurting, and we'd like you to

1134
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 2: notice how that feels, to say that to the other person,

1135
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 2: to receive it from the other person.

1136
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: The second thing that we would like you to do is,

1137
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: we were so moved by Rona you telling Stephanie how

1138
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: much you love her and like her, even though you

1139
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: don't tend to verbalize those things, and Stephanie you said,

1140
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: I always felt it was conditional, like if I did

1141
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: the right things, then I was loved, and then if

1142
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 1: I made a mistake, I wasn't. And so we would

1143
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: like you to share with each other one memory each.

1144
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: Rona would like you to share with Stephanie a moment

1145
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: from her childhood. You talked about how much you wanted

1146
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: to have her and how lucky you felt to have her.

1147
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: What is one moment that you can share with her

1148
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: from her childhood where you just delighted in her, not

1149
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: her accomplishments, not something that she did that was external

1150
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 1: to her, but just a memory of being with her

1151
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: where you felt so lucky to be her mom and

1152
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: you just delighted in the moment with her. And Stephanie,

1153
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 1: we would like you to share a moment with your

1154
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: mom from your childhood when you felt so loved by her.

1155
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: We know that you were closer with your dad and

1156
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: sometimes your mom wasn't able to express her love as

1157
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: much or in the same way, but there must have

1158
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: been moments because because we can tell from the closeness

1159
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: that you have and you're smiling, so we can tell

1160
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: that that's true. We'd like you to share a moment

1161
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 1: from your childhood where you felt so loved by her.

1162
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 1: So that's task number two, and we'd like you to

1163
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: do that again on a zoom.

1164
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 2: Here's the next task and it will also involve a

1165
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 2: zoom call. We would like you to have a call

1166
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: with Danielle, both of you together with Danielle, and we

1167
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 2: would like you to tell her how meaningful it was

1168
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 2: to have her at the funeral, how much you appreciated

1169
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 2: her coming, how much you appreciated her support, and how

1170
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 2: happy you are to have her in your lives. These

1171
01:05:57,680 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 2: are things you might have said to her already. We're

1172
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: not sure she's ever heard that coming from both of

1173
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: you at the same time, in the same moment, and

1174
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 2: we think there would be a nice thing to do

1175
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 2: to set this stage four three generations of women being together,

1176
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 2: talking together, and expressing love to one another together.

1177
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: And the last thing that we would like you to

1178
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 1: do this may or may not come up this week,

1179
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: but this is a long term assignment. If it doesn't,

1180
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 1: have this as a tool in your toolbox, and that's

1181
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 1: if you see your mom Stephanie, getting angry with you,

1182
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: we want you to stop her and ask her, is

1183
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: this about some kind of hurt or some kind of

1184
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: fear and Rona. What we want you to do in

1185
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: that moment is to really talk to yourself and soothe yourself.

1186
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: And the one thing that I think happens for you

1187
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: is that you feel like you're out of control if

1188
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: you get vulnerable. So we want you to remind yourself

1189
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: in that moment, I am not out of control if

1190
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 1: I express feelings. That's going to be a big reframe

1191
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: for you, because you have this idea in your head

1192
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 1: that if I get vulner I'm not in control anymore.

1193
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 1: So when Stephanie stops you, we want you to think

1194
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 1: about her question am I feeling hurt? Am I feeling scared?

1195
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: And then can I be vulnerable and express that to

1196
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 1: her as opposed to the anger, the blame, the judgment.

1197
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: And Stephanie, remember that when you'd redirect your mom and

1198
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 2: say Mom, usually when you're angry, it's because you're hurt

1199
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 2: or because there's some fear there. Tell me about that.

1200
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 2: If she's able to, then the first thing you say is, Mom,

1201
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 2: thank you so much for sharing that with me. I

1202
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: know that was very difficult for you, and I so

1203
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 2: appreciate your trust.

1204
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 1: Yes, you don't have to agree with the thing that

1205
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: she's hurt or afraid about, but you have to create

1206
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: a space where she can trust that she can share

1207
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: that with you, and that will create some safety between

1208
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 1: the two of you. And one last thing, if you

1209
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: start to feel safer with each other, Stephanie, you might

1210
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: want to put your arm around your mom when you

1211
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: see her. What that does in terms of bringing her

1212
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: closer to you too in a way that feels comfortable

1213
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 1: to both of you.

1214
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 3: Thank you for helping us verbalize things that I couldn't verbalize.

1215
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 3: I couldn't quite wrap my mind around to get out

1216
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 3: the right way.

1217
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you be very helpful.

1218
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, You're very welcome. We really look forward to

1219
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 2: hearing how the week goes for you.

1220
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: You know, when people come to us for therapy with

1221
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 1: someone else, whether that's a couple or whether it's a

1222
01:08:47,519 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 1: parent and a child, usually the problem has been going

1223
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: on for quite a while, and we don't know how

1224
01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 1: much repair has to happen before they can figure out

1225
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:02,839
Speaker 1: where they are now, who they are to each other now,

1226
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,719
Speaker 1: and what might happen moving forward. And what I really

1227
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: loved about this session was that even though this had

1228
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: been such a long standing issue between the two of them,

1229
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 1: they were willing to be vulnerable with each other. They

1230
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: were willing to try new ways of communicating with each other.

1231
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 1: They were able to open up about what these long

1232
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 1: standing grievances had been and what was going on for

1233
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 1: each of them. And I think that's a really positive sign.

1234
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 2: I agree, And I'm also going to say what we

1235
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,719
Speaker 2: would say with a long standing issue, Great, you have

1236
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 2: a little more understanding of one another right now. It

1237
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 2: will take a lot of work and mindfulness to keep

1238
01:09:44,599 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 2: doing this to repair a relationship that's been strained for

1239
01:09:48,679 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 2: twenty five years. I actually think it's very possible for

1240
01:09:51,719 --> 01:09:54,799
Speaker 2: Rohna and Stephanie. But they're going to have to get

1241
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 2: comfortable with emotional discomfort, and they're going to have to

1242
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 2: be able to forgive each other for mistakes, because no

1243
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 2: one changes all at once. But if they can do that,

1244
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,959
Speaker 2: and if they can work at it, I think there's

1245
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 2: hope to really recover substantial.

1246
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: Way you're listening to, Dear Therapists, we'll be back after

1247
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:33,119
Speaker 1: a short break. So Guy, we heard back from Stephanie

1248
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 1: and Rona, And first we're going to hear from Stephanie

1249
01:10:35,599 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 1: and then we're going to hear from Rona. Let's hear

1250
01:10:37,719 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 1: what happened this week.

1251
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 5: Hi, Lurie and Guy reporting on this week's assignments. The

1252
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:44,999
Speaker 5: first thing Mom and I did was have a zoom

1253
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,159
Speaker 5: call with Danielle where we expressed our love and admiration

1254
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,759
Speaker 5: for her, and she seemed very pleased to hear us

1255
01:10:50,799 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 5: say that. I know that I'm not always very good

1256
01:10:53,719 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 5: about expressing those things either, so thank you for that. Assignment,

1257
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 5: and the three of us decided we'd definitely like to

1258
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 5: do some more of those in the future. The second assignment,

1259
01:11:03,559 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 5: Mom and I did a zoom call where we talked

1260
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 5: about two times that were difficult regarding Dad's death for us.

1261
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 5: And while we weren't perfect about just listening without giving

1262
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:16,839
Speaker 5: advice or judgment or anything, I know that something both

1263
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:20,080
Speaker 5: of us can work on and plan too. And then

1264
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:23,759
Speaker 5: the other assignment was for each of us to share

1265
01:11:23,799 --> 01:11:27,559
Speaker 5: a joyous moment from my childhood, and I shared a

1266
01:11:27,559 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 5: time with Mom and I would make decorations for the

1267
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 5: windows for holidays. I always remember that fondly. The fourth

1268
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,679
Speaker 5: part of the assignment where I was to respond to

1269
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 5: Mom if she gets angry. That hasn't happened yet because

1270
01:11:39,559 --> 01:11:41,839
Speaker 5: it generally happens in person and I had already left.

1271
01:11:42,559 --> 01:11:44,799
Speaker 5: I do the really appreciate having a tool and the

1272
01:11:44,799 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 5: permission to use that tool when I do see Mom

1273
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 5: starting to get angry with me, So thank you very

1274
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:51,919
Speaker 5: much for that. I think that's going to help things

1275
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 5: a lot with us, And overall, I've just felt that

1276
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,759
Speaker 5: our relationship has been lighter and more open ever since

1277
01:11:58,799 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 5: that conversation. I think that you have opened a door

1278
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 5: and shined a lad on a path for us to

1279
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:08,639
Speaker 5: move forward and grow closer over time, and I'm deeply

1280
01:12:08,679 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 5: grateful for that. Thank you.

1281
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:16,879
Speaker 6: This is Rona. First of all, I wanted to talk

1282
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 6: about our difficult times grieving. The most difficult time I

1283
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 6: had was when someone asked about him who had not

1284
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 6: heard of his death, and I had to tell them

1285
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 6: that he was gone. Another moment that hit me was

1286
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 6: when I needed to find a tool to make a

1287
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:42,599
Speaker 6: repair and I couldn't ask him where it was. I

1288
01:12:42,639 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 6: had to search. Stephanie and I both miss him, but

1289
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 6: realized that we have done much of our grieving as

1290
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,759
Speaker 6: we watched his health decline. A moment when there was

1291
01:12:56,120 --> 01:13:02,759
Speaker 6: pure joy when I looked at Stephanie shortly after she

1292
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 6: was born. Even though I was exhausted as a new mother,

1293
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 6: I felt amazing love her sleeping in her carriage as

1294
01:13:12,519 --> 01:13:20,119
Speaker 6: she grew, Her joy in riding her bicycle was contagious.

1295
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 6: It was great to have Danielle and Stephanie together with

1296
01:13:24,759 --> 01:13:28,599
Speaker 6: me on zoom. I just wanted to snap a picture

1297
01:13:28,639 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 6: of us expressing our love for each other, just to

1298
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,519
Speaker 6: keep it in my heart. It made me realize how

1299
01:13:34,599 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 6: few times the three of us were together two at

1300
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 6: a time was not unusual, but the three of us

1301
01:13:40,599 --> 01:13:46,799
Speaker 6: together was less frequent, and I thought it was one

1302
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 6: of the nicest things that have happened to me.

1303
01:13:49,519 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1304
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:57,799
Speaker 2: So I'm going to start with the thing that grabbed

1305
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:01,599
Speaker 2: me the most, and that is how they each both

1306
01:14:01,639 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 2: Stephanie and Rona seemed so delighted with the call with

1307
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 2: Danielle that they loved the fact that it was three

1308
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:11,559
Speaker 2: of them on the call. There was something about them

1309
01:14:11,639 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 2: doing that together that really felt good to them. It

1310
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 2: felt good, apparently to Danielle, and that the fact that

1311
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 2: they want to do more of that sounds great. That

1312
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,839
Speaker 2: sounds like a really nice thing for all three, right.

1313
01:14:22,679 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 1: And I grabbed onto that too, because that's really what

1314
01:14:25,559 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: the letter was about, which was how do we start

1315
01:14:28,519 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 1: to heal this? And it sounded like it was such

1316
01:14:31,719 --> 01:14:34,679
Speaker 1: a meaningful experience for all three of them, and I

1317
01:14:34,759 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: love that they're going to be doing more of this.

1318
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 2: In terms of the joyous moments from Stephanie's childhood that

1319
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 2: they shared with one another were lovely, the berth and

1320
01:14:43,599 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 2: riding the bike, the holiday decorations. They are each good

1321
01:14:48,639 --> 01:14:54,039
Speaker 2: at describing what brought them the joy, and they're both

1322
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 2: not great at describing the joy. The emotional component for

1323
01:14:58,639 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 2: them is always implied in the action, but they have

1324
01:15:02,639 --> 01:15:05,759
Speaker 2: a really hard time actually talking about their feelings of

1325
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:07,919
Speaker 2: joy and describing them fully.

1326
01:15:08,519 --> 01:15:10,999
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we saw that in the Grieving part two,

1327
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 1: where we asked them to share some difficult moments they

1328
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,879
Speaker 1: had around the grieving and have the other person support

1329
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 1: without advice. But when they were sharing this part, we

1330
01:15:21,719 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: didn't hear the emotion. Rona said they did a lot

1331
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 1: of their grieving when the father was sick, but I

1332
01:15:27,599 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 1: think that that grieving was very internal for both of them,

1333
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,759
Speaker 1: and so it would be great if they could share

1334
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: more of their emotional experience with each other. I think

1335
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 1: that would really bring them closer.

1336
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 2: And I would suggest to both of them that, Stephanie,

1337
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 2: the next time you have this conversation, say with your

1338
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:46,879
Speaker 2: mom and she says, oh, there was this really difficult

1339
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 2: moment where I needed a tool and I didn't know

1340
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: where it was and I couldn't ask your father because

1341
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 2: he wasn't around. I don't know how you responded when

1342
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:56,719
Speaker 2: she told you that, but a great response would be, Mom,

1343
01:15:56,799 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 2: tell me more about what that was like for you

1344
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 2: tell me more about what came up for you in

1345
01:16:01,559 --> 01:16:04,679
Speaker 2: that moment. I'd love to hear what your experience was.

1346
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:07,799
Speaker 2: They both really struggled to express the emotions, so they

1347
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 2: have to really invite the other person to do so.

1348
01:16:11,679 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 2: This is something that takes practice and they both need

1349
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 2: quite a bit of it, especially Rona. You need to

1350
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:21,919
Speaker 2: practice expressing these emotional feelings because that's how you can

1351
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 2: get in touch with what those feelings are for you.

1352
01:16:24,519 --> 01:16:26,160
Speaker 1: And I think what will make that easier for them

1353
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: is what Stephanie said near the end, that there's just

1354
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 1: a lighter and more open feeling between the two of

1355
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: them since they had this session. I think that will

1356
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 1: really help them to open up to each other and

1357
01:16:37,719 --> 01:16:40,639
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable doing that. And I liked what Stephanie

1358
01:16:40,679 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 1: said about even though they did not have an argument

1359
01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 1: this week, because that usually happens in person, that she

1360
01:16:47,519 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 1: now has the tools and she feels like she has

1361
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:51,799
Speaker 1: permission to use the tools. It's kind of like we

1362
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,080
Speaker 1: help them establish a boundary between them, and now they

1363
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:57,320
Speaker 1: know that if this comes up in the future, that

1364
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:00,519
Speaker 1: Stephanie can hold that boundary, and Rona knows exactly what

1365
01:17:00,639 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 1: that boundary is, so I think that that will be

1366
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:03,000
Speaker 1: helpful to.

1367
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 2: My last thought here is that what I heard from

1368
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 2: both of them was hesitancy and hope. They're still hesitant.

1369
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:14,039
Speaker 2: There's still a lot more to prove and a lot

1370
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 2: more to show one another about the fact that they

1371
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 2: are now on a new chapter in their relationship. And

1372
01:17:20,599 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 2: it does feel like they're on a new chapter, and

1373
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 2: it does feel like there's a lot of hope, but

1374
01:17:25,559 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 2: there's still a lot of hesitancy. So as long as

1375
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 2: you keep working together, talking together, and really trying to

1376
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:34,599
Speaker 2: share the feelings and validate those feelings, I think you

1377
01:17:34,679 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 2: will be able to continue to make a lot of

1378
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:41,839
Speaker 2: progress and really start a different relationship than the one

1379
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 2: you've had of the past twenty five years.

1380
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,240
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1381
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:52,000
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1385
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1386
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:07,960
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1387
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,240
Speaker 2: producer is No old Brand. We're produced and edited by

1388
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 2: Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty.

1389
01:18:16,679 --> 01:18:19,719
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1390
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1393
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Speaker 3: Fisher