1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Hey, Please take a second and leave us a review 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,279 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Hey, welcome to Sign Stuff, the production 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. I'm More Hey, chim and today we're answering 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: the question do animals have consciousness? Have you ever looked 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: into your dog's puppy eyes and wondered what's going on 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: in there? Can animals have thoughts, sense of self and 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: even dream What about chickens, or fishes or even bugs? 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: Can they have an inner world and feelings? To find out, 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to a couple of experts on 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: animals sentience, and we're going to learn how to tell 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: if an animal has consciousness, which ones have it, and 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: we're going to ask the big question about what it 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: would mean for them to be conscious. So dream along 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: with us as we answer the question do animals have consciousness? 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Enjoy Hey everyone? Today on the episode, we're going to 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: find out if different animals have consciousness. We're going to 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: learn whether the monkeys have it, where their dogs have it. 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: We'll even talk about whether their chickens and crabs have consciousness. Now, 20 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: consciousness is a super tricky topic, so the first thing 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: we're going to do is define what consciousness is. And 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: to do that, I reached out to an animal philosopher. 23 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Here's doctor Heather Browning. 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: So I'm doctor Heather Browning. I'm a philosopher who works 25 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: at the University of Southampton, and I'm most interested in 26 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: using the methods of philosophy to answer questions about the 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: minds of animals. So animal sentience and animal welfare incredible. 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: First of all, can you tell us what is consciousness? 29 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: All right? So we start with the really big questions. 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: So consciousness is something that's proved notoriously difficult to define. 31 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: A lot of philosophers try to think really hard about this, 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: and essentially, when we want to talk about consciousness, I 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: think the best way is to think about it through 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: examples of the kinds of experiences that are familiar to us. 35 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: So you might think that, for instance, a rock doesn't 36 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: feel anything when water falls on it, but we do. 37 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: When a grain falls on our skin, it feels like something. 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: For that, when we're asleep, it doesn't feel like anything 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: to be us. When we're awake, we're seeing, we're smelling, 40 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: we're tasting. All these experiences have this quality of feeling 41 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: that are associated with it, and that's what makes up consciousness. 42 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's very tied to the idea of a feeling. 43 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. 44 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: So one way to think about consciousness is that it's 45 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: the opposite of being a rock. Rock exists in the 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: world and things happen to it, but it doesn't feel anything. 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't have thoughts about the things happening to it. Basically, 48 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: there's nothing going on inside of a rock. Another way 49 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: to think about consciousness is that it's also kind of 50 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: the opposite of being a robot. You can imagine making 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: a robot that looks like a person in this program 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: to act and respond like a person, but that robot 53 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: we don't have an inner life the same way you do. 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: But when I look at another person, the only information 55 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: I have about them really is the words that come 56 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: out of their mouth and the behaviors that they do, 57 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: and they all resemble mine in a lot of ways. 58 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: But technically that person, you know, they could be sort 59 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 2: of an android with nothing going on inside, or they 60 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: could be what philosopher's like to call philosophical zombies, which 61 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: is a person who essentially is like a robot. You know, 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: if there's no kind of light on, no spark. 63 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: Now, there are other things that are part of being conscious. 64 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: For example, some people say having consciousness is having a 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: sense of self, you know, like a feeling that you're 66 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: a person in this world. Another part of consciousness is 67 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: having the power to make decisions that you don't do 68 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: things automatically, but that you think about them. There are 69 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: lots of definitions, but for now, just hang on to 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: the phrase. It means that you have an inner life. 71 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: And so the question now is do animals have this 72 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: inner life? Well, the problem is that we can't ask them. 73 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean this is something philosophers like to 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: debate a lot, and they call it the problem of 75 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: other minds. And we don't know when we look at 76 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: another person, we don't know for sure that they're not 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: a philosophicals on video, they're not an android. And I mean, 78 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: right now you're just seeing me on a screen. I 79 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: could just be an AI. You know, shot out. That's 80 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: from program. 81 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: I Am an AI. By the way, you're being interviewed 82 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: by an artificial interviewer. 83 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: We're very sophisticated on us. 84 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: Thank you. We worked on it a lot. What doctor 85 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: Browning is saying is that it's hard enough to know 86 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: if another person has consciousness, much less an animal we 87 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: can't even communicate with, So how can we know if 88 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: an animal has consciousness? Well, it turns out scientists have 89 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: come up with sort of an animal consciousness test to 90 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: tell us about it. Reached out to doctor Alex Schnell. 91 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: You might remember her from a few episodes ago. He's 92 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: a comparative psychologist who is all so in National Geographic Explorer, 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: and she talked to us about how smart octopuses are. 94 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: It turns out she's also a researcher on animal consciousness. Well, 95 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: thank you, doc, there's not for joining. 96 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: Us again, thank you for having me. 97 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: Are you conscious right now? 98 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 3: Slightly? It's about thirty two degrees celsius. I don't know 99 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 3: what that is fahrenheit, it's very very high. 100 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: Scientists like her study consciousness and animals have come up 101 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: with a set of indicators or tests that can tell 102 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: you whether an animal potentially has consciousness. What does that mean? 103 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: What are the indicators? I guess? 104 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: So the indicators are We've got four that are neural 105 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: that really look at the presence of nose receptors, so 106 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: receptors that can respond to stimuli like a prick or 107 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 3: heat or an electric shop whether they have integrative brain 108 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 3: regions where that information can be combined and integrated. 109 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: So the first indicator scientists used to tell if an 110 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: animal has consciousness is whether the animal can feel pain. 111 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: And really the scientists are interested in whether the animal 112 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: can feel anything, but they pick pain because there's a 113 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: lot more data out there on it. Then see whether 114 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: an animal feels happy or sad. Okay, that's step number one. Now, 115 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: if an animal does feel pain, the sign of consciousness 116 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: is what the animal does about it. 117 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then behavior indicators include protective behaviors. So you've 118 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 3: brought octopus, so I'll tell you for an example, if 119 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 3: it octopus is inflicted in with something that might cause 120 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 3: pain or harm, they generally show protective behaviors that you 121 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 3: might see in your pet dog or cat at home. 122 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: You know, they'll stroke their arm or rub their arm, 123 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: or wrap their injured arm really close to their body 124 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: and protect it with their other arms, and they won't 125 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: use that as often. 126 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: Interesting, So a sign of consciousness is if an animal 127 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: feels pain and then acts to protect where they feel 128 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: the pain, because that means they have a feeling and 129 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: they're conscious of it. It affects how they behave The 130 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: next step is whether they learn from their experiences. 131 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: Another indicator is learning from experience, just learning that doing 132 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: a particular activity, if you're getting a negative emotion from that, 133 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: to stop doing that. 134 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: So if an animal feels something like pain and they 135 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: stop doing it, that's a sign that they're in a 136 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: way thinking about that feeling and that they have learned 137 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: what caused that feeling. That's another sign of consciousness. And 138 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: the last test of whether an animal has consciousness is 139 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: whether they can make choices that trade off different feelings. 140 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: And then also the last one is showing a preference 141 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: or an aversion to an experience that is going to 142 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: have a particular vailance. So if you keep getting stung 143 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: or prodded in one particular room, then you might avoid 144 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 3: that room in the future. 145 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: Okay, these are going to make more sense a little 146 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: later when we apply these tests to different animals, and 147 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: I think you're going to be surprised how some animals, 148 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: even bees, respond to these tests. So this is a 149 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: list of indicators that let's say an animal checks all 150 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: of the boxes, then it's a very clear candidate that 151 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: it may be has sentients and maybe consciousness is how 152 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: you would phrase it. 153 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 3: So definitely like Marx that there's strong evidence that they 154 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: are sentient. 155 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: Okay, when we come back, we're going to apply this 156 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: set of tests to a wide range of animals, including dogs, chickens, hermit, crabs, 157 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,359 Speaker 1: and even bees to find out which of them have consciousness. 158 00:08:50,480 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: So stay with us. We'll be right back, and we're back. 159 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: We're talking about whether animals have consciousness, and so far 160 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: we talked about what that means and how you might 161 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: tell even animal has it. Scientists who study this have 162 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: somewhat of a test for consciousness or sentience as some 163 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: people call it, which involves looking at how animals react 164 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: to pain. How they react to, for example, getting tricked 165 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: by a sharp object or getting a slight electric shock 166 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: can tell you a lot about whether they have feelings 167 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: and whether they have complex thoughts about those feelings. And again, 168 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: they use pain because a lot of the research out 169 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: there focuses on whether animals feel pain. Now, the question 170 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: is which animals pass this test to Monkeys, dogs, birds, crabs, 171 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: or even insects show signs of consciousness well. According to 172 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: doctor Heather Browning, it's kind of hard to tell. 173 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's still a lot of uncertainty and 174 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: controversy about which animals are conscious or which animals are sentient, 175 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: because this is something that we're talking about that's happening 176 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: inside their heads, inside their minds, and we don't have, 177 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: you know, a consciousness scope that we can just go 178 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 2: and look into the minds of animals and tell us 179 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: what they're thinking or feeling. We don't even have that 180 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: for other humans. 181 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: Now. The thing about consciousness is that most scientists don't 182 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: really see it as a kind of on or off thing, 183 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: meaning that you either have it or don't. The more 184 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: common view is that it's something that's on a scale. 185 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: So that is something that there's still debate about, and 186 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: I think people aren't sure because I think intuitively it 187 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: makes sense to us to think about it as being 188 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: on or off, but that doesn't trap very well with 189 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: how we think about a lot of the rest of biology. 190 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: When we think about the kinds of evolved traits that 191 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: other animals might have, often they do come in degrees. 192 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: You know, Yes, some animals can fly and some animals 193 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: can't fly, but there's all kinds of gradients in between 194 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: there where some animals can glide, some animals can fly 195 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: a little bit, and some animals can't do that at all, 196 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 2: And so it makes sense that almost all traits and 197 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: biology are actually on these kinds of gradual scales, and 198 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: consciousness is probably something. 199 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, well, I feel like right now we're 200 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: in a very different time zone, and so I am 201 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: only partially conscious right now myself. Yes, okay. According to 202 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: this definition of consciousness, doctor Browning says most experts agree 203 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: that most mammals, down to about a dog or a mouse, 204 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: demonstrate signs that they have consciousness. It's clear that they 205 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: have feelings and that there is some kind of inner 206 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: life going on inside their brains. 207 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: So it's very very difficult, I think, for anyone who's 208 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: had a pet dog and spend any time with it 209 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: to really, you know, and not think that there's someone 210 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: there on the inside in the mind of that dog, 211 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: but they're really interacting with another being or another subject there. 212 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: So there isn't much debate about whether animals like dogs 213 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: or horses, or elephants, or pretty much any mammal has 214 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: some form of consciousness. Where it gets triggier is in 215 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: animals like birds, or even chickens. 216 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think what chickens get over looked quite 217 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: a lot. But yeah, they are actually quite cognitively complex animals. 218 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: You know, chickens can learn very well, they have good memories, 219 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: they make complex decisions, they have complex social lives. You know, 220 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: they're able to remember and interact with a lot of 221 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: different chickens as well, and thinking about what they feel. 222 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: Certainly we see chickens that have the kinds of injuries 223 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: that we would think would be painful when a human. 224 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: They will preferentially go and eat food that has a 225 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: painkiller in it. Even that food tastes worse and a 226 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: normal chicken that wasn't in pain wouldn't want to eat it, 227 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: which you know, is very strong evidence in my mind 228 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: that they are feeling pain, that there is something there 229 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 2: that they're trying to stop, just like we would. 230 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: I see, there are things they like and they things 231 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: that they don't like. 232 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, And a lot of work in animal 233 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 2: welfare science is trying to look at, you know, what 234 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: animals like and don't like through doings that they call 235 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 2: preference testing, you know, giving them different situations and seeing 236 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: what they choose. 237 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: Okay, this is part of that test that I mentioned 238 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: to you before. Here's what the experiment looked like. You 239 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: offer a chicken two balls of food. One are the 240 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: bulls is food that tastes great to a chicken, and 241 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: the other ball has food that doesn't taste that great 242 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: to chickens. Now, normally chickens will choose the food that 243 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: tastes better, But if the chicken is in pain for 244 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: some reason, and you put pain medicine in the food 245 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: that tastes worse, the chicken will choose the one with 246 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: the pain medicine. And this, scientists argue, is a sign 247 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: that chickens can feel and have a preference and make 248 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: a choice based on that preference, all of which are 249 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: signs of consciousness. 250 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: And chickens have been the subjects of a huge amount 251 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: of these tests. And you know, do they prefer to 252 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 2: stand on the floor, do they like to be on 253 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: a perch? Do they like to be in a nest box? 254 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: Or do they like to nest in a corner on 255 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: the ground. And yeah, they're very good at telling us that, 256 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: And it really does seem like they have those kind 257 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: of rich sets of preferences about what they want and 258 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: what they don't want what they like and what they 259 00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: don't like. 260 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: Okay, the next animal we're going to talk about are fish. 261 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: Do fish have consciousness? 262 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: So fish a roment of travelers. They ran into a 263 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: lot of skepticism because their brains are very different from ours, 264 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 2: and so the kinds of inferences that we make from 265 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: our types of brains and saying well, look, other animals 266 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: have brains that are similar, so they probably produce the 267 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: same kinds of experiences. You should have different kinds of brains, 268 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: And so people wanted to use that as a reason 269 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: to say, well, they can't have consciousness, And people who 270 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: worked with fishes and look at their behavior wanted to 271 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: push back on that and say, well, no, a fish 272 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: might have a different brain than ours, but we might 273 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: still be able to have consciousness. Fish do a lot 274 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: of these sort of complex things. They respond when they 275 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: receive I mean we would think would cause pain, or 276 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 2: if they get an injection in their lips of a 277 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: mild acid that should cause them pain, they will wrap 278 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: their face on the tanks, they will lose interest in 279 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: their food, They'll be less likely to respond to predators 280 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: because they're distracted. They will preferentially go to tanks. They 281 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,359 Speaker 2: have painkillers in them. All those same kinds of responses 282 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: that if we saw them in a mammal or a 283 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: bird tho sort of experiences we see in fish. 284 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: So according to our definition of consciousness, fishes are conscious 285 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: beings too. They have feelings, they can feel things, and 286 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: they have complicated thought processes that guide how they behave. Okay, 287 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: now we get to even trick your animals. Invertebrates. These 288 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: are animals like crabs and shrimps and octopuses and insects. 289 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: Can we say that they have consciousness too. We'll start 290 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: with an easy one, which are octopuses. Here's doctor Alex Schnell. 291 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 3: So, for example, we looked at three hundred studies by 292 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: way a team of scientists led by Jonathan Birch to 293 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: find evidence of sentience in cephalopods and decapod crustaceans, and 294 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 3: octopus satisfied seven of the eight criteria, and the one 295 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: that it didn't satisfy studies in that criteria had not 296 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: been conducted. 297 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: So octopuses passed seven of the eight indicators that tell 298 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: you they might have consciousness, and some sodis even show 299 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: that octopuses might even dream. 300 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 3: There was some other research that's not my own, but 301 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 3: some researchers in Brazil had conducted on octopus looking at 302 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: different phases of sleep, and this was so cool. They 303 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: showed that octopuses have two phases, a quiet phase and 304 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: an active phase, and their active phase looked very similar 305 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: to the way that humans sleep during RAM, so the 306 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: rapid eye movement phase, and in humans that is a 307 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 3: phase when we dream. And so they had a lot 308 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 3: of behavior footage of an octopus clearly asleep because their 309 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 3: eyes are closed and they'd be prodden just to make 310 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 3: sure that they're asleep, but changing coloration and texture is 311 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: if they were having a dream. You know, sometimes they 312 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 3: look like they were outfeeding and hiding for a predator. 313 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 3: So wouldn't that octopus be dreaming? You know, there's still 314 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 3: a huge question mark, but it was pretty phenomenal. 315 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: To think that is fascinating. Well, I guess, first of all, 316 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know octopuses slap, but that the dream is 317 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: amazing and that you can see it in their coloration. 318 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: They might dreap, sorry, that they might dream, yeah, and 319 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,239 Speaker 1: that you might be able to see it in their 320 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: coloration and their movement. 321 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: That's incredible because there's not many other animals. I mean, 322 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: you can see a dog when they you know, they 323 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 3: might be dreaming and they're running in their sleep and 324 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 3: they're whimpering like they're trying to catch something. 325 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: You can see that in dogs. I don't know inn 326 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: a dog. 327 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 3: So oh, okay. I think there's a whole community of 328 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: YouTubers that share results and videos their dogs and cats dreaming. 329 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 3: It's very entertaining. But yeah, you can. But there aren't 330 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 3: many animals like an octopus where you can actually see 331 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: the color of their skin changing. And so I like 332 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: to think that they wear their emotions on their skin 333 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 3: and maybe that's a window into their mind. 334 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: It kind of makes you wonder what does an octopus 335 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: dreap about? Okay, So that covers octopuses and like extension, 336 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: also curdlefish and probably squids as potentially having consciousness. Now 337 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: we get to even trickier animals like crabs and these 338 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: do insects have consciousness? We'll review the scientific evidence for 339 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: it after the break. Stay with us. You're listening to 340 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: sign stuff and we're back. Okay, we're talking about whether 341 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: animals have consciousness, and so far we talked about what 342 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: that means how to tell if an animal has it. 343 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: And we've gone down the evolutionary tree of life to 344 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: see which animals can be said to possibly have consciousness, 345 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: And now we're at animals that are very different from us, 346 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: the invertebrates, invertebrate animals, that is, animals without bones or 347 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: a spinal cord, separated from us, or we separated from 348 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: them over five hundred and ninety million years ago. And 349 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: yet invertebrates like octopuses clearly have intelligence and can be 350 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: said to have a consciousness too, even perhaps to have dreams. 351 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: But what about other invertebrates like crabs or shrimp or 352 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: even insects. We'll start with crabs. So crabs, what was 353 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: the evidence of crabs? 354 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so crabs action there was a surprisingly large amount. 355 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: We went into the project assuming that there'd be quite 356 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: a lot about octopuses, because we know people find octopuses 357 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 2: very interesting, but crabs. Actually there was almost as much 358 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: evidence in crabs as there was in octopuses. So hermit 359 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: crabs are crabs that don't have their own hard shells, 360 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: but they move into the shells that are left behind 361 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: by other sea creatures and they change those shells over 362 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: time as they grow, or if they find a better shell. 363 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: Okay, here's the experiment that's been done with hermit crabs, 364 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: and it's pretty interesting. This was done by a biologists 365 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: named Bob Elwood. Elwood and his team gave hermit crabs 366 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: the choice of different shells to pick for their new home. 367 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: But all the shells were rigged. Each had a little 368 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: ho all drilled into them with the wire that went 369 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,239 Speaker 1: inside the whole. Now, the hermit crab would try on 370 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: all the shells and eventually pick the one the crab liked. 371 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: But here's the twist. After they picked a shell, the 372 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: scientist would send a mild electric shock to the crab 373 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: through the wire place inside the shell. So now the 374 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: hermit crab had a problem. The shell they liked had 375 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: this annoying quality that it would shock them every once 376 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: in a while, and so they had to make a 377 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: choice should they stay or should they go and find 378 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: a different shell. The hermit crabs would get a variety 379 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: of different shells qualities, and some of them would give 380 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: them a shock, So they really had to think about, well, 381 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: which shell do I want? 382 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: Yeah? And can I sustain that shock? And just to 383 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 3: keep this great house that I'm in or I'm just 384 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: going to get rid of this house and go for 385 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 3: one that's of less equality to me. 386 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: Well, what they showed is that if they were in 387 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: the good shell, they'd be much less likely to leave it. 388 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: I'd be much slower to get out of it than 389 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: if they're in the badge. And so, you know, they 390 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 2: were showing that they valued these shells, that they really 391 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: did make this kind of decision based on the badness 392 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: of the shock versus the goodness of the shell. 393 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: And then the scientist made it even more complicated for 394 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: the crabs. They would sometimes put in the water the 395 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: smell of a predator that tries to eat the hermit crab, 396 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: And so now the hermit crab had to make an 397 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: even harder choice. Should I stay in my preferred home 398 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: even though I'm getting shocked, or should I take the 399 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: risk and go find another shell, even though it seems 400 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: there's something out there trying to eat me. 401 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 3: And so they would have to integrate the risk of 402 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 3: getting the shock and maintaining that home and trade off 403 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 3: between those risks and opportunities. And so it really told 404 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: a nice story of how hermit crabs why they might 405 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: not have an inner monologue. They to have the capacity 406 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 3: to integrate this information and make decisions based on that integration. 407 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: You would have thought that of all animals, the hermit 408 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: crab would have a monologue. They don't really talk to 409 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: any other crabs. Yes, so even crabs seem to pass 410 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: the test or potentially having some form of basic consciousness. Now, 411 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: at this point you might be wondering, how far does 412 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: this go? Do all animals have consciousness, even insects? Well, 413 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: it turns out the answer is maybe, Okay. So then 414 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: if we keep going down the complexity of animals from 415 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: shump you and crabs, you would get insects. And so 416 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: what do we know about insect consciousness? 417 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think insects report will you wear a 418 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: lot of the players right now? I think that's where 419 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: people are paying a lot of attention the question of 420 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: insect consciousness. This is because our use of insects is increasing, 421 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: Insect farming is set to rapidly increase over the coming years, 422 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: and so the question of whether or not they're sentient 423 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 2: is becoming very very relevant to the ethics of insect farming. 424 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: What do you mean insect farming for what? For food? 425 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 2: For humans? So insect farms, So say, crickets for instants 426 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: are being seen as potential sources of protein for humans. Know, 427 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 2: when we're struggling to feed the world in a way 428 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: that has kind of you know, effishient, environmentally friendly protein 429 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: sources and also more than that, as food for the 430 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: animals that we feed. So black soldier fly larvae in 431 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 2: particular are being used quite a lot to feed feed chickens, 432 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 2: to feed fish in aquaculture. 433 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so then what do we know about 434 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: insects sentience? 435 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: So there was a relatively recent review done of the 436 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: evidence for sentience and insects, very similar to the one 437 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: I was talking about that we did in cephalopods and decapods, 438 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 2: and again found quite positive and promising results. They ran 439 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 2: into many of the same problems in that there's not 440 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: a lot of research done, and insects are very diverse, 441 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: like there are so many different groups of insects, and 442 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 2: insects also have very different life stages. You know, they 443 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: have larval stages, they have pupair stages, they have adult stages, 444 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: and so really what you need is evidence for each 445 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: of these different groups of animals at each of these 446 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: different life stages and that is not there. But again, 447 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: there is pretty good evidence for at least some groups 448 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: of insects that they do seem to meet these same criteria. Bees, 449 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 2: for instance, are pretty well studied, and there's evidence that 450 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: bees can make your flexible decisions, that they respond to 451 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: painful stimuli. 452 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: Yes, if you can beleave it. Scientists have done experiments 453 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: to test whether bees have consciousness. The experiment when something 454 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: like this. They offered bees the option to drink sugary 455 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: water from different feeding stations. Some stations had sweeter water 456 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: than others, but all the feeding stations were rigged so 457 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: that the pads the bees had to stand on to 458 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: drink could get hot, hot enough to make it uncomfortable 459 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: for the bees to drink from that station. Now, when 460 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: nothing was heated, bees would choose the sweetest stations, but 461 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: when those stations were made to be hot, the bees 462 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: would switch and drink from the less sweet feeding stations. 463 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: Meaning the bees had to weigh the pros and cons 464 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: of their options. Should I drink from the sweetest station 465 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: but then it's kind of too hot, or should I 466 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: go for a less sweet station even though I'm getting 467 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: less sugar? And this shows the scientists argue. In this 468 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: case a biologist named Matilda Gibbons and her team that 469 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: bees are doing something that resembles being conscious. 470 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 3: And so what she was looking at is again whether 471 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 3: they could integrate that information on the risk of going 472 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: to get the more sugard concentration based on the heat 473 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 3: on their fate. At what point was it just not 474 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 3: worth it? 475 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: In that case, they were weighing whether the buzz was 476 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: worth it. 477 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I like what you do there, And it's sort 478 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 4: of pointing to a sophistication in how they respond and 479 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 4: make choices. 480 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: It's not a simple mechanism in their little brains. It's 481 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: like they have to kind of think about it. 482 00:25:58,920 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 483 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's kind of the basis of the idea 484 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: of sentience, is that they're thinking about things. 485 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 3: They're not reflexively responding. Like there's integration going on, there's 486 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 3: weighing up, there's decision making. 487 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: According to doctor Brownie, bees have even been shown to 488 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: potentially play, so. 489 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: Yes, a very cool work on bees recently showed that 490 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 2: they seem to play for no other reason but can 491 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: be explained except that they seem to like it. So 492 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: if they get these little plastic balls that they can 493 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: roll around. Even if those balls have got nothing to 494 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 2: do with their food. You've never had anything to do 495 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: with their food. You know, the food's in another room. 496 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: The bees will still go and roll these balls around 497 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 2: for you know, decent periods of time. Really only explanation 498 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: that the researchers can give is that they seem to 499 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,239 Speaker 2: be enjoying it, that this is something they like and 500 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 2: it's fun for them, and so they do seem to 501 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: be these little beings who can have these experiences of 502 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 2: the world. 503 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: All right, at this point you may be wondering, well, well, 504 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: what doesn't have consciousness? Well, it turns out people who 505 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: study consciousness and animals do draw a line at some point. 506 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: For example, the general consensus is that worms probably don't 507 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: have consciousness. When you apply the same set of tests 508 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: we've been talking about to worms, they score pretty low. 509 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: They don't seem to have preferences or be able to 510 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: weigh these complex decisions. And also plants, philosophers are fairly 511 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: sure they're not conscious, although not everyone agrees. You just 512 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: put up an interesting point, which there plants, and I 513 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: assume most people greep plants are not conscious. 514 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is definitely the mailstream view. At 515 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 2: the moment, there are people who think the plants are conscious, 516 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 2: and I've seen some work of people arguing if plants 517 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: are much more complex than I think we used to 518 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: think they were, well communicate with one another. You know, 519 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: trees have these massive underground root systems that no one 520 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: really knew about before, where they can send chemical signals 521 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: to one another, They can respond to different kinds of 522 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: environmental stimuli. But I think none of that passes the 523 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: thresholds for what we would take in animals to be 524 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: required for a conscious experience, okay, and particularly the speed 525 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: of processing. So a lot of people think that in 526 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: part what consciousness might be for is to help us 527 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: respond relatively quickly to changes in the environment, to update 528 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: what's happening to us, to be able to make decisions 529 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: between competing motivations that we might have and plants they 530 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 2: don't move that kind of spilled. So one of the 531 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: big things that differentiates an animal from a plant is 532 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 2: that one part of the animal, right we're wanting to feed, 533 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: an other part might be wanting to reproduce, and they 534 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: can't do both those things at once. It has to 535 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: pick one or the other. Whereas a plant is able 536 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: to actually do multiple things at once. They don't have 537 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: to physically move themselves around, and. 538 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: I see they don't have a sense of its whole 539 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: being all at the same time. 540 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's your right. 541 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: Okay. The last question we're going to ask about animal 542 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,239 Speaker 1: consciousness is what does it all mean? What does it 543 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: mean that a dog has conscious thoughts, or that than 544 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: octopus dreams, or that bees like to play. I asked 545 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: both our experts this question. Okay, the last question, what 546 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: are the implications of animals or certain animals having or 547 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: not having consciousness or sentience? 548 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 3: So one sentience is recognized. I think humans are faced 549 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 3: with ethical legal obligations. 550 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: When we think about how we act towards other animals. 551 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 2: In my mind, whether or not they're sentient is the 552 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: key feature that tells us whether or not we should 553 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: be concerned about the harms that we're doing to them. 554 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 3: And I think that is profound because even if an animal, 555 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: let's say a crab or an octopus, doesn't have an 556 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: inner monologue, or they can't communimicate feelings or reason, it 557 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that they can't suffer, and so the ethical 558 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 3: considerations of that remain critical. It means that their suffering counts. 559 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: I guess to get a little bit deeper, you said, 560 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: it makes this these certain questions and responsibilities. What does 561 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: that mean or why is that? 562 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 3: What it is? Is it? So being able to recognize 563 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 3: that an animal has the capacity to feel negative and 564 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 3: positive emotions, it removes this barrier of arpness, and so 565 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 3: we could recognize that like us, like humans, they have 566 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 3: this capacity, and so it bridges I guess, our world 567 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: with theirs. 568 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: So studying consciousness and animals should make us think about 569 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: how we treat them, and it can also tell us 570 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: something about our own consciousness. What does that mean about 571 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: our consciousness that animals are conscious? 572 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 3: Well, I think that a lot of research in the 573 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 3: past has been like, well, this is unique to humans, 574 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 3: and human intelligence and consciousness is highly complex, and we 575 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: are able to obtain knowledge and understand concepts and thing 576 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: can reflect in ways that we haven't been able to 577 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: see in other animals. But these things that pop up 578 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 3: in our mind are not evolutionarily isolated, and so by 579 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 3: recognizing and researching other animal minds, then forming a more 580 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 3: comprehensive view of how the mind evolved in our evolutionary trade. 581 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 3: Because each mind is one piece of the puzzle. 582 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: I see, we can trace where our consciousness came from, 583 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: and that's a huge part of understanding what it is 584 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: and how it works. 585 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, all right. 586 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: We hope that made you a little more conscious of 587 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: animal consciousness, so the next time you look at an 588 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: animal eyes, you wonder what's going on in there. Thanks 589 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: for joining us, See you next time you've been listening 590 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: to Science Stuff. Production of iHeartRadio written and produced by 591 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: me or Hm, predited by Rose Seguda, Executive producer Jerry Rowland, 592 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: an audio engineer and mixer Ksey Pecrom and you can 593 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: follow me on social media. Just search for PhD Comics 594 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: and the name of your favorite platform. Be sure just 595 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: subscribe to Sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 596 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,239 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and please tell your 597 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: friends we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.