1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: So look, there's another little road down here. Do you 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: think there's a bridge down there? In two thousand and one, 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: a year after they arrived in Costa Rica to live 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: in their four story round house in the middle of 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: the jungle, John and Anne Bender went to see doctor 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: Rosemary Bradley. 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: Hi is Rosemary there? 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 3: Uh huh, I'm a kidding to get here all right. 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: My producer Poppy and I are retracing their journey. 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 4: You have to cross the river over a bridge. 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: It was a spring afternoon in late April. John and 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: Ann set off in the car, heading for the outskirts 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: of pere Zeladon. They had no idea what was about 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: to unfold. That the old life John had left behind 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: in America was about to collide with his new life 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: in Costa Rica, and the utopia they'd carefully constructured around 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: them would be shattered. It would lead to Anne and John, 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: who shared a battle with mental illness, to fear for 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: their lives. Their acute need for privacy had already made 20 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: them unpopular in the valley. Now paranoia would take hold. 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: They would retreat further and further into the jungle and isolation, 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: and they would ramp up their security their lavish home 23 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 1: high on the hill would become a fortress. The Benders 24 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: its prisoners from Exactly Right Media and iHeart Podcasts produced 25 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: by Blanchard House. This is Hell in Heaven. I'm Becky Milligan. 26 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: Chapter three, The Ambush. We arrive at Rosemary's. 27 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 4: Did you get all right? 28 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 3: Well, we're outside a big sort of green gate. Just 29 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 3: go across, you'll just come across. 30 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: Rosemary appears a few minutes later, husband in toe Oh. 31 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: They take us through the gate and a little further 32 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: down a small road and at the bottom is a 33 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: fast flowing river with large boulders. The only way to 34 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: get to their house is across a narrow, rusty hanging bridge, 35 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: which bounces and creeks as we walk across. It's slatted 36 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: so that if you misstep, you'd go straight through into 37 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: the river below. This was where the Benders came that 38 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: afternoon back in two thousand and one, an afternoon that 39 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: would change them both safe on the other side and 40 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: up through their lush gardens, we come to their house. 41 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: It's surrounded by trees with views of the valley. Fantastic. 42 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's called the India Door. 43 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: Mila. 44 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: Rosemary points to the dramatic mountain range the sleeping Indian. 45 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: She says, the peaks form a distinct profile of a 46 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: woman lying down as though asleep. 47 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 5: If you look at her, she's pregnant. See that's her nose, 48 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 5: that's her chin, that's her her breast, and then there's 49 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 5: her pregnant belly. 50 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 3: She overlooks your house. 51 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: They have an airy, spacious outdoor area with a concrete floor, 52 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: corrugated roof and wire fencing. For Rosemary is seventy one 53 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: with alert, intelligent eyes. She's a scientist, a soil microbiologist 54 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: to be precise. Her partner Marco is Costa Rican. Rosemary 55 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: is originally from the UK. 56 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 5: I came to Costa Rica in nineteen eighty nine and 57 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 5: found this beautiful close to build a house. 58 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and one, she ran a business 59 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: selling her unique mixture of native seeds. 60 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: One was a grass and one was a leging. 61 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: The idea was that if you planted them, they would 62 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: grow to provide an eco friendly, nutritious diet for cattle. 63 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 5: To substitute the imported maize and soybeans. 64 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: And also to nurture the soil and prevent erosion. Because 65 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: the legume in particular has long roots. It was at 66 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: the time a revolutionary idea and one the Benders were 67 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: interested in. It's growing in her garden. 68 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 5: And then goes down there, and then it digs down 69 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 5: into the soil. In fact, you can see where it goes. 70 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: There's one for example. 71 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I see, goes deep down and keeps the 72 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: soil in place. Back in two thousand and one, Rosemary 73 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: was busy. People would come from across the country to 74 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: buy her unique blend. Lots of people bought our seeds, 75 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: and one of them was John Bender. It was Rosemary's 76 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: produce which had brought the Benders on a rare trip 77 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: away from their home. Their dream house was being built 78 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: on top of a hill and close to the ocean. 79 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: The slow unraveling of that dream was a few years off. 80 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: For now, their concerns were very practical soil erosion. 81 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 5: You often see that, and that part of the coast 82 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 5: is that houses are being built on very steep slopes 83 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 5: and some of them are at just falling down the hillside. 84 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy what. 85 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 5: People do where they build their houses. They must have 86 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 5: known about us through the grapevine. 87 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: Right here. 88 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 5: Everybody finds out about what's going on through just talk, 89 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 5: talk talk. Everybody talks a lot. 90 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 1: On that afternoon in April two thousand and one, around 91 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: three o'clock, the Benders arrived and parked on a quiet 92 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: country road on the outskirts of the town near Rosemary's house. 93 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: They crossed over the bridge to meet Rosemary in her laboratory. 94 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: Rosemary remembers the couple clearly, and she noticed was badly 95 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: affected by limes disease. Remember, Anne wasn't being treated by 96 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: a conventional doctor for her condition. John was trying to 97 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: fix her himself by using plants in the jungle. 98 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: And she limped a lot. 99 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 5: She used a walking stick because of the lime disease. 100 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 5: But she had a very pretty face. She's kind of shy, timid, 101 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 5: whereas he was so I would say, deep deep voice, Yeah, yeah, 102 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 5: A nice guy. 103 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: I mean you. He was good looking too. I was 104 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: fascinated by I've been fascinated. 105 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: Rosemary and Marco were excited to meet people who took 106 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: a real interest in their business and what they were 107 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: trying to do. For Rosemary, that was pretty rare. 108 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 5: We'd tried to make friends with them, you know, we 109 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 5: invited them around and stuff, but they didn't. 110 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: They didn't, they didn't want to. 111 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: They weren't offended. In fact, Rosemary sympathized. She hadn't found 112 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: it easy to run a business in Costa Rica, trying 113 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: to do something new, something different. Sometimes it was hard. 114 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: She'd had her own dreams of a flourishing global seed business. 115 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't to be these days. She and Marco found 116 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: themselves very hard up. 117 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 5: I think you can get quite paranoid here as a 118 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 5: foreigner and feel that everybody's against you, and just live 119 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 5: your own little private life. And I think that's what 120 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 5: they were doing. You create your own bubble. I mean, 121 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 5: we've done that here. 122 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: So the Benders and Rosemary had a lot to talk about. 123 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 5: They were very interested in these seeds of this forage 124 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 5: peanut and how they were produced and so on. 125 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: John and Ann bought some of Rosemary's seed, and while 126 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: Rosemary prepared their order, they went back over the bridge 127 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: to their car. 128 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: Presumably it was to get the money. 129 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: Then, Rosemary froze, tell me what you heard. 130 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: All I heard was a shot. 131 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: At this point in our interview, Marco leaps to his 132 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: feet and starts gesticulating towards the bridge. He remembers very 133 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: clearly what happened. 134 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 4: Next handle Undia Komalas. 135 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: It was three in the afternoon. He says he'd been 136 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: working at home and he'd heard the phone ring. It 137 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: was the intercom from the external gate across the bridge. 138 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: It was Anne's voice shouting and screaming, help, help, help, vamos. 139 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 5: He says, see maemos, come come. 140 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: Let's go, and moves quickly to the bridge. We try 141 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: and keep up. He wants to show us what happened next. 142 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 5: In situ, he went running ahead because they were saying help, help, 143 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 5: they're kidnapping us. 144 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: He shows us how fast he went across that rickety 145 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: bridge after hearing the gunshot. It's not easy at speed. 146 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: The whole structure feels pretty dangerous. Rosemary was close behind him. 147 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: Marco takes us to the front drive, and, slightly breathless, 148 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: he describes the scene which confronted him. The moment he 149 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: came through the gate, a y is pick up Blanco. 150 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: He points to the road. There was a white pickup 151 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: truck blocking the drive. He turns and points to the 152 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: gate there. He says Anne was there standing by the 153 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: intercom Bosomundo. John was furious and now Rosemary picks up 154 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: the story. 155 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 6: John was a. 156 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 5: Huge guy, right, he'd he he. 157 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: Got really angry. 158 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 5: He raised his voice, and they don't like that. 159 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: They don't like that. If you're if you just if 160 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 2: you live in. 161 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 5: Costa Rica, you must never lose your temper. That is 162 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 5: a very important rule. 163 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: Rosemary and Marco's staff, who were in the roadside office, 164 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: were also terrified. They'd seen everything. A vehicle screeched to 165 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: a stop, blocking the drive, boxing in the Bender's car, 166 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: and armed men jumping out waving guns in the air. 167 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: What did they tell you that happened? That staff member 168 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: saw one of the armed men shoot at the ground 169 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: near John. The gun shot. Rosemary and Marco had heard 170 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: back at the house and said later she thought it 171 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: was a kidnapping. He fired the gun between John's legs 172 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: and held it up to John's head and was terrified. 173 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 2: So that was what was scary about it. 174 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 5: They thought they were being attacked by robber and they 175 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 5: were going to be robbed. 176 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: That's what they thought. 177 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: And John and Anne were in a bad way. 178 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: They were trembling, they were terrified. 179 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: Once Rosemary and Marco had taken in the scene, they 180 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: suddenly recognized one of the armed men. It was someone 181 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: they knew. These weren't robbers at all, but law. 182 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 5: Enforcement, and then we found it was a friend about 183 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,599 Speaker 5: us right who'd actually. 184 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: Fired the shots. 185 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: Rosemary reassured John that they weren't being kidnapped. 186 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 5: We were just trying to calm him down, if I 187 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 5: remember correctly, that it was okay, that it was just 188 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 5: a matter of documents. 189 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: They tried to find out precisely what the problem was, 190 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: what had the benders done wrong. The police wouldn't tell them, 191 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: but they did want to see the couple's ID. John 192 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: and Ann were having problems understanding the police officers. Their 193 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: Spanish wasn't that good, so Rosemary said she would go 194 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: with John to the police station and helped translate, while 195 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: Marco would go with Anne back to their house to 196 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: pick up the passports. Rosemary and Marco were used to 197 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: hearing gunshots and shooting around the place. John and Ann 198 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: would have been two kidnappings, and vigilante groups are quite 199 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: common where Rosemary lives. In fact, there was a banner 200 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: stretched above the road when we arrived, a picture of 201 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: a rat, a symbol for a criminal crossed out, and 202 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: a message that vigilante groups are operating in the area. 203 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: The sign read trapped rat lynched rat. The banner itself 204 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: had more than a dozen holes made by gunshots. Rosemary 205 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: told us there'd been a recent killing a few doors down. 206 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 5: Just a couple of weeks ago, driving a motorbike up here, 207 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 5: one of these delivery guys with a pizza. 208 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: They attacked him. 209 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 5: And there's two guys who lived just across the road, 210 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 5: and the police don't do anything about it. 211 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: Marco and Ann went to get the couple's passports. They 212 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: arrived to meet John and Rosemary at the station, ready 213 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: to sit down with police. 214 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 2: They were there for hours. 215 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: Rosemary and Marco didn't understand what it was all about. 216 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: They would find out later. They eventually left John and 217 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: Ann to it, but Marco did notice something which he 218 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: thought was odd about their documents. John and Ann's passports 219 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: were from Grenada. That's a notorious tax evasion hub. There's 220 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: no inheritance well for or capital gains tax. Apparently the 221 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: passports had aroused the police's interest. John's father, Paul, says 222 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: that he was worried about his son's decision to give 223 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: up US citizenship and move his fortune abroad. 224 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 7: I guess the one thing that bothered me about what 225 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,359 Speaker 7: he was doing when he started thinking about moving offshore 226 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 7: and not living in the United States, and I said, 227 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 7: why are you doing that? And he said to avoid 228 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 7: taxes and stuff, and that I did not like. Did 229 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 7: you tell him, yeah, I told. 230 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 6: Hi, didn't. 231 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 7: But he did that, and that was disturbing for Paul. 232 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: Using tax havens like this giving up your passport went 233 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: against the spirit of the law he had committed his 234 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: life to upholding as a legal scholar and expert. He 235 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: was also worried about his son not having the protection 236 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: that a US citizen is entitled to. But it wasn't 237 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: all about passports. There was another reason for the police 238 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: pulling John and Anne in, one which would fuel John's 239 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: suspicions and convince him that his enemies were after him. 240 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: A few days later, Rosemary called Anne to find out 241 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: if they were okay. They were fine. John and Ann 242 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: were kept at the police station until late and released 243 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: the same day, But that wasn't the end of the matter. 244 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: Far from it. The police operation had deeply upset John 245 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: and Anne. John couldn't shake the feeling that people were 246 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: after him, that he and Anne were vulnerable. As Valdo, 247 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: their head of staff, remembers him being completely traumatized. John 248 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: decided that they needed more protection. Jose Pizzaro, former chief 249 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: of Costa Rica's police force, a popular guy who better 250 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: known across Costa Rica as El Toro the Bull. He's 251 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: a solidly built man with a broad smile, and well 252 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: known for being a friendly guy. He tells me so 253 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: friendly and liked that if people saw him walking down 254 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: the street, they would call out El Toro. Josey agreed 255 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: to meet John at his house or Acayanne. He'd had 256 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: enough years in the police force to recognize trauma. He 257 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: knew instantly how threatened they felt. John told him that 258 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: it had changed his life. He was especially worried about 259 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: and safety. 260 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 6: He says. 261 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: He thought their house was beautiful but isolated, so his 262 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: priority was to make it secure. John told him he 263 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: wanted him to set up an entire security system. Jose 264 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: brought in more armed guards, secured the entire five thousand 265 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: and acre property, and became their personal bodyguard. A bond 266 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: of trust developed very quickly between us. He says they 267 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: were very special people. Jose tells us that John had 268 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: his own nickname for his new head of security, Colonel. 269 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: When Jose went to town with Anne. He tells us 270 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: that John would call out Earn, you suppose you take 271 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: good care of my wife, Colonel. It's the only reason 272 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: I'm relaxed, because she's with you. Jose told us that 273 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: John and Ann's extreme reaction to the arrest was not 274 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: only down to the way it was carried out. Of course, 275 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 1: if they believed they were being kidnapped, it would be 276 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: extremely frightening. John confided in Jose that he suspected that 277 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: the police operation was a cover for something more sinister. 278 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: The questions about their passports were a ruse. John felt 279 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: there was something very strange going on, Jose tells us 280 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: Jose agreed there was something which suggested this was far 281 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: from a routine check on the couple's papers, and he 282 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: knew the police officers. These were police officers attached to 283 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: the Special Investigations Unit, in an unmarked car and in 284 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: plain clothes. The strength used was so unnecessary, Jose told us. 285 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: John disclosed something else to Jose which he believed backed 286 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: up his hunt that people were after him and Anne. 287 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: When they were at the police station, there was another man, 288 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: a lawyer who he didn't know, who served him papers 289 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: which means John was being notified of a lawsuit against him. John, 290 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: Jose told us, was being sued by a former associate 291 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: who claimed that he was owed millions of dollars by John. 292 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: The stakes were extremely high. Were the police acting on 293 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: behalf of someone else, was someone after John? Was there 294 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: a threat of kidnap and abduction? Or were these the 295 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: rantings of a man in shock. Jose says that the 296 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: way the police went about the arrest was strange. This 297 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: was totally out of line. That wasn't the proper protocol, 298 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: Jose says. John sued the police in the end, and 299 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: they were all fired. Jose did look into whether there 300 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: had been a kidnapping plot to get him out of 301 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: the country, or maybe extortion or blackmail. I personally never 302 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: found any evidence of that, Jose says, but it wasn't 303 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: an extensive investigation. Jose was more focused on setting up 304 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: the security around John and Ann and their property. After all, 305 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: Jose's job was to protect them. John's theory is that 306 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: people on the ground had been hired to kidnap him 307 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: or abduct him, might appear implausible, especially as Jose had 308 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: looked into it and found nothing. Perhaps it was a 309 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: symptom of living in extreme isolation with a wife whose 310 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: health was going downhill, and John was slowly and steadily 311 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: detaching from reality. But then we came across a witness 312 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: who suggested just the opposite, that John may have had 313 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: every reason to be paranoid, testimony which throws a completely 314 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: different light on what happened that afternoon at Rosemary's seed farm. 315 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: We were given the man's number and told to ring him. 316 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: We had no other information. The man who we're calling, Michael, 317 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: was quite elusive at first, but I eventually got through. 318 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: He didn't want his voice used, so we're using an 319 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: actor for his side of the conversation. My audio is 320 00:20:55,040 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: from the original call. Yes, Oh Hi, My name's Becky Milligan. 321 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: My colleagues and I work for a podcast company and 322 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: we're doing the story about John Bender. First up, I 323 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: asked Michael to explain what he does for a living. 324 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: So what would you call yourself? What would how would 325 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: you describe your job? 326 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 4: We're not related to military at all. Really interesting. 327 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 6: Basically, I don't like the term. 328 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 4: I don't like the term. What do you call it? 329 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 3: Mercy? 330 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 4: Correct? I don't like that term, but basically that's what 331 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 4: it Is. 332 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 6: I worked for different governments in the add least for 333 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 6: many years. I worked for the US, that worked for 334 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 6: the Israelis, I worked for Spain, and I. 335 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 4: Was basically a private contractor. 336 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 6: So wherever the army can't go in or won't go 337 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 6: in or whatever, they usually said nice so when they 338 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 6: had a potential intro been a person in particular. 339 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 4: For whatever reason, obviously. 340 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 6: It was all related to terrorism and all that, then 341 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 6: we would go in and expect that person and hand 342 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 6: them over to the party that was contracting us. 343 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: Are you involved in this sort of work still? 344 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 6: I retired in two thousand and eight, but I still 345 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 6: have some clients in Central America. 346 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: It sounds like a pretty dark and murky world. I 347 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: wondered what he was asked to do when it came 348 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: to John Bender. 349 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 6: I was contracted by a third party to kind of 350 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 6: intercept mister Bender and send him to the States. 351 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: So we'd worked on. 352 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 6: Intelligence to get mister Bender's whereabouts, and what we did 353 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 6: we mounted an intervention to kind of capture him. 354 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: The problem was that when he turned up, it seemed 355 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: he wasn't the only person interested in John Bender. Why 356 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: did you all get there at once? 357 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 4: I don't know. 358 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 6: I don't know if it was a flug or if 359 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 6: it was coincidence or what happened exactly, But that day 360 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 6: we actually bumped into local law enforce that kind of 361 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 6: equivalent of the FBI Costagla. 362 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: We heard Rosemary and Marco's version of events. This is 363 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: how Michael says it played out on the ground. 364 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 6: Everybody kind of got to the location where we had 365 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 6: decided to intercept mister Vender, and they didn't know who 366 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 6: we were either, so it was it was kind of 367 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 6: pretty intense for a few minutes. 368 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 4: I was going to get. 369 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 6: Paid when I got mister Vender, right, so if I 370 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 6: didn't get mister Bender, then I wasn't going to get paid. 371 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 4: I wasn't there to play a round. 372 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: Michael, realizing that his mission might now be scuffered, contacted 373 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: the contractor, who, by the way, he wouldn't name, and 374 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: there was a back and forth. 375 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 6: And at the end of the let's say twenty minutes 376 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 6: half an hour of the intervention, I was told to 377 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 6: pull back and not intervene. 378 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: The contractor said he'd get his money anyway. 379 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 6: This was not foreseene and therefore not my missigue or 380 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 6: my problem. But if they told me you got it 381 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 6: bring him to us. 382 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 4: Then I don't know. 383 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 6: I mean, we were ready for that, but up to up. 384 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 4: To the point. So anyway, very very very very very. 385 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: Intense, I asked Michael if he'd been told why his 386 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: employer had asked him to abduct John Bender. 387 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 6: The person that gave us the contract was apparently very 388 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,239 Speaker 6: interested in getting mister Bender back to him somehow, so 389 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 6: I guess he was either involved with mister Bender or 390 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 6: mister Bender owning something, because it was quite obvious that 391 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 6: we were. 392 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 4: Going to intercept mister Bender. 393 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 6: And get him out of the country back to these people. 394 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 3: Sorry, I just want to get this straight to my head. 395 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 3: So were you on your rown? 396 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 4: No? No, I had three people with it. 397 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 3: Oh you had three people too. Do you remember it 398 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: quite well, very clearly. Do you know when you were 399 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 3: asked to do this? They did they give you a 400 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: reason why? Or I mean, did you know why they 401 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: wanted him? And you know, because it's sort of basically, 402 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 3: for want of a better word, sort of kidnapping him 403 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 3: and sort of bundling him out into America. 404 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 6: I suppose I don't know what their intention, but they 405 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 6: were there for him, and they were there you. 406 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: Wouldn't have arrested him, would you? You would have just 407 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 3: sort of what would you have done? 408 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 6: Well away, I guess we can we can discuss that 409 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 6: when you hear I was going to be told where 410 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 6: to bring him and they were going to fly him out. 411 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: He said he'd meet us in Costa Rica. He stood 412 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: us up. We made another date again, he didn't show, 413 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: so I left him a voice message. It's Becky Year, 414 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: just checking if everything's okay. I've been waiting at the 415 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: front desk, will be around all day, so just give 416 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: us a ring or message and let me know. 417 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 3: All right, cheers by. 418 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: We asked Rosemary whether she had seen another car at 419 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: the scene. She had no recollection of one. The staff 420 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: who'd witnessed what had happened didn't want to talk, so 421 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: we can't be sure that Michael was really there. We 422 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: have no way of standing up his story for now. 423 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: We did speak to someone who did confirm that they 424 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: had hired an investigator on the ground, but they wouldn't 425 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: go on the record, and we don't know if that 426 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: investigator was Michael. Knowing what had happened only a year 427 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: or so after they'd moved to Costa Rica makes more 428 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: sense of all those armed guards and the barbed wire 429 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: fencing around their property. They were a couple who didn't 430 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: just protect their privacy. They were terrified because they believed 431 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: that people were after them. And those papers that were 432 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: filed at the police station we investigate in the next episode. 433 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: Was the passport tissue a ruse for the police hired 434 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: by a creditor to serve him? And who hired Michael 435 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: the same people or another interested party? Just who is 436 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: actly had John pissed off? And were they working together 437 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: to bring him back to the US. Next time, it's 438 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: a real change of scene. We head to the streets 439 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: of Philadelphia to the nineteen eighties in search of a 440 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: young John to find out who he really is. Is 441 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: that what he believed himself to be? A sort of 442 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: genius of sorts? 443 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 6: Oh? 444 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, he knew it. 445 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 6: There was not a question about it. 446 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 3: We would be together and he'd say, you know, it's 447 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 3: just talking to this guy. 448 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 5: He's like a. 449 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 3: Famous math professor at Harvard. But can you believe what 450 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 3: an idiot this guy is? 451 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 6: He was on another level. 452 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 7: And when it came to the big money and you're 453 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 7: in that game where you're playing for high stakes, but 454 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 7: there was no mister nice guy. 455 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: Just who was this guy who amassed a six hundred 456 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: million dollar fortune and believed he could cure his wife's 457 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: serious illness and who someone wanted to kidnap? You've been 458 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: listening to Helen Heaven from Exactly Right Media and iHeart Podcasts, 459 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: produced by Blanchard House, hosted, written and produced by me 460 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: Becky Milligan. The producer and co writer is Poppy Damon. 461 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: Music is by Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nankmnell and Toby Matthamon. 462 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: The sound recordistant head of Sound and Music is Daniel 463 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: Lloyd Evans. The lead sound designer is Vulcan Kiselton. The 464 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: artwork is by Vanessa Lilac for Exactly Right Media. The 465 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: executive producers are Karen Kilgarreth, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer, 466 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: with consulting producer Lilly Ladderwig and associate producer Jay Elias. 467 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosy Pye. The 468 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: executive producer and Head of Content at Blanchard House is 469 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: Lawrence Griselle. Listen to Helen Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, 470 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts