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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition. Feels like a Monday here
Speaker 2: on the fastest show in politics on Bloomberg Radio, on
Speaker 2: the satellite and on YouTube. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington.
Speaker 2: After six weeks and twenty two witnesses, here, we are
Speaker 2: the moment many have been waiting for. In Lower Manhattan,
Speaker 2: closing arguments are now underway in Donald Trump's criminal trial.
Speaker 2: Each of the thirty four if you're playing along in
Speaker 2: your home game, felony falsification of business records charges that
Speaker 2: he is facing brings a sentence of up to four
Speaker 2: years in prison and a five thousand dollars fine. Of course,
Speaker 2: the President has pleaded not guilty and is still learning
Speaker 2: about the process here, which is amazing to me for
Speaker 2: someone who has been so heavily litigated over the course
Speaker 2: of his career. Donald Trump takes to truth Social last
Speaker 2: night and writes in all caps, why is the corrupt
Speaker 2: government allowed to make the final argument in the case
Speaker 2: against me? Why can't the defense go last? Big advantage?
Speaker 2: Very unfair? Which hunt exclamation point. That is the way
Speaker 2: it works here. Just ask Eric Larson. He does this
Speaker 2: for a living Bloomberg Legal reporter has been in the
Speaker 2: courtroom for the duration of this trial, and I'm glad
Speaker 2: to say is with us now from world headquarters in
Speaker 2: New York. Eric, That is the way it goes, right,
Speaker 2: if you are trying to carry the burden of proof
Speaker 2: the prosecution, Donald Trump knows that.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm pretty sure that was It's just standard. But
Speaker 3: as we've seen, mister Trump has complained about a lot
Speaker 3: of things during the trial that are just sort of
Speaker 3: standard procedures or things that were sort of the result
Speaker 3: of his own defense teams doing so, you know, it's
Speaker 3: a little bit of a distraction, perhaps from what's really
Speaker 3: going on here, because actually, after the prosecution gives it
Speaker 3: its closing arguments, you know they're going to the juries
Speaker 3: were already going to have heard from several hours of
Speaker 3: the defense here. So it's not as though they're not
Speaker 3: getting an opportunity to say everything they want to say.
Speaker 2: Fair enough, yes, not a coin toss. Though, to be clear, Eric,
Speaker 2: what are we going to witness here over the next
Speaker 2: day we're hearing closing arguments might in fact go into
Speaker 2: tomorrow as we watch the summation of this case. What
Speaker 2: do you have your focus on?
Speaker 3: Well, the judge said last week that he anticipated the
Speaker 3: closing statements or arguments would go all day today and
Speaker 3: potentially bleed into Wednesday, although it's also possible that if
Speaker 3: they keep on track, they could wrap up today, especially
Speaker 3: be because the judge has told the jury that they
Speaker 3: have the opportunity to stay later than four thirty pm
Speaker 3: today if they wish, that's the usual closing time for
Speaker 3: the trial, and just to try to move things along.
Speaker 3: They do have to get their official instructions from the
Speaker 3: judge as well, So either way, I would imagine that
Speaker 3: deliberations would be going on for most of the day tomorrow.
Speaker 2: You're one of the few Americans, Eric Larson, who has
Speaker 2: actually seen this jury, having been in the courtroom for
Speaker 2: the balance of the trial. Some are making the case
Speaker 2: that this could be a very quick turn here because
Speaker 2: they've been steeped in this case for so long, and
Speaker 2: for many it's cut and dry. But we've also had
Speaker 2: a lot of legal experts tell us to never try
Speaker 2: to predict a jury, that this is when the wild
Speaker 2: cards could come. What are the options, what are the
Speaker 2: outcomes potentially that you're looking for here?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, anyone's guess what is going on with
Speaker 3: this jury. Both sides are making their cases very strongly.
Speaker 3: Obviously the government has the burden of proof here, and
Speaker 3: all that the defense needs is for one of those
Speaker 3: jurors to have a reasonable doubt and then you end
Speaker 3: up with a hung jury and a mistrial. So we're
Speaker 3: prepared for any of those outcomes. And as you noted,
Speaker 3: this is an unprecedented case, but we could get a
Speaker 3: verdict pretty quick. I mean I've spoken with experts who
Speaker 3: say that if, for example, the jury is buying this
Speaker 3: case and they decide to convict, that that could happen,
Speaker 3: you know, even within one day of deliberations, And if
Speaker 3: it goes on potentially longer than a few days, then
Speaker 3: perhaps the case is in a little bit more trouble.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, fascinating to think where we would be at that point.
Speaker 2: CBS News is reporting eric a New York Corrections sources
Speaker 2: the Secret Service has met with local jail officials to
Speaker 2: talk about possible outcomes. Now, I will say that every
Speaker 2: analyst who's ever come on this show says, don't even
Speaker 2: dream of Donald Trump is not going to jail no
Speaker 2: matter what happens.
Speaker 1: In this case.
Speaker 2: But the fact that they have to have this conversation
Speaker 2: shorter sentences I read can be served at Rikers, which
Speaker 2: has two wings that are typically used for high profile
Speaker 2: or infamous inmates. Is the Secret Service prepared to have
Speaker 2: officers in a jail cell if necessary.
Speaker 3: I would imagine that that is something they discussed quite
Speaker 3: some time ago, because you'll recall that Judge Murshawn has
Speaker 3: threatened to jail Trump even before the trial was over
Speaker 3: for violating repeatedly violating a gag order barring Trump from
Speaker 3: publicly commenting about witnesses and and the jury. So clearly
Speaker 3: there must have been some discussions going on a while ago,
Speaker 3: because the judge at any time could have ordered Trump
Speaker 3: to go to jail for that alone. But I'm sure
Speaker 3: that that is something that the Secret Service would have
Speaker 3: be obligated to be discussing.
Speaker 2: Fascinating. It's really great to have you back, Eric. We've
Speaker 2: missed you because I locked in court. We can't always
Speaker 2: get our hands on Eric Larson, but today we have
Speaker 2: Bloomberg's legal reporter in New York. Great to see you, sir.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the update. This is going to happen
Speaker 2: this week. It's looking like it's coming here this week,
Speaker 2: and when the news breaks from the courthouse in Lower Manhattan,
Speaker 2: you will hear it first here on Bloomberg Radio, be
Speaker 2: with us on the radio, on the satellite, or on YouTube.
Speaker 2: As I say, because this is going to be a
Speaker 2: big one and will be offering you the best legal
Speaker 2: and political analysis that you're going to find anywhere on
Speaker 2: this program. As we turn to our other major story today,
Speaker 2: and that is the fallout from the Israeli airstrike on
Speaker 2: a tent camp in Rafa. The international condemnation has been
Speaker 2: heard loudly since Sunday, with witnesses describing a truly horrific
Speaker 2: scene and a lot of questions about how this could
Speaker 2: have happened. As we read on the terminal, Trying to
Speaker 2: put this together here has been very difficult, as the
Speaker 2: IDF says that the attack was based on precise intelligence.
Speaker 2: That is a quote. It killed two senior officials from Hamas,
Speaker 2: which was of course, the point of this here French
Speaker 2: President Emmanuel Macrone outraged, the White House heartbreaking, the IDF investigating.
Speaker 2: Mick mulroy is back with us on Bloomberg. I'm glad
Speaker 2: to say he's co founder of the Lobo Institute, former
Speaker 2: US Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East,
Speaker 2: and is now personally involved in trying to deliver humanitarian
Speaker 2: aid to those who need it in Gaza. Mick, it's
Speaker 2: great to have you back your thoughts when you saw
Speaker 2: these images. Forty five civilians killed. At what point do
Speaker 2: we reach Joe Biden's red line in Rafa?
Speaker 4: So, Joe, of course, anytime civilians are killed in conflict,
Speaker 4: it is not a good thing. And I think what's
Speaker 4: really got people concerned here is the IDF has relocated
Speaker 4: civilians to try to avoid this and then apparently struck
Speaker 4: in the area of which they were relocated. Too clear,
Speaker 4: I think from the IDF's statement that the actual casualties
Speaker 4: were caused by the munitions that they used to kill
Speaker 4: the two ABSST militants, or as their statement indicates, it
Speaker 4: might have been collateral and then secondary explosion that cause
Speaker 4: the fire. I don't know, but obviously a lot of concern,
Speaker 4: considering the whole point was to move them to a
Speaker 4: location that was out of harm's way, and then there
Speaker 4: was a strike in the vicinity.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned that the IDF says it cannot
Speaker 2: explain the fires that followed the strikes that they again
Speaker 2: claim were precise. Is it on the IDF Is it
Speaker 2: on the Israeli military to know the difference? If there's
Speaker 2: say a depot of some sort next to a target,
Speaker 2: you're still putting civilians at risk.
Speaker 4: That's right. When it comes to these type of assessments,
Speaker 4: you have to have a military necessity. If they were
Speaker 4: correct and they were going after a Moss leadership, that
Speaker 4: is a military necessity and a valid military target. But
Speaker 4: then there's proportionality. So that's where I think the US
Speaker 4: government has had issues with the IDEF. Is the proportionality.
Speaker 4: If you use a large diama or bomb in an
Speaker 4: urban area, for example, you yes, likely kill the two militants,
Speaker 4: but you also might flatten the buildings that are around it,
Speaker 4: killing civilians. That of course would be out of proportion.
Speaker 4: So I don't know the details here and whether they
Speaker 4: did an accurate assessment of the potential collateral facilities like
Speaker 4: ammunition depot or field depot or something that could have
Speaker 4: caused his fire. But that is all something that's taken
Speaker 4: into account when they look at whether there was proportionality
Speaker 4: and their decision to take destray.
Speaker 2: Well, Joe Biden's red line was in reference to an
Speaker 2: invasion of Rafa many weeks ago when he said that,
Speaker 2: and we've seen this very sort of incremental approach here,
Speaker 2: some would say limited approach. But after this story that
Speaker 2: we're talking about forty five dead, clearly airstrikes that are
Speaker 2: taking place. We also read Israeli tanks have reached the
Speaker 2: center of Rafa, a sign that they could be nearing
Speaker 2: the goal of taking full control of the city. So
Speaker 2: if not, now, when is the full invasion of Rafa?
Speaker 2: Aren't we seeing it?
Speaker 4: Well, we very well could be. So tanks are used
Speaker 4: in urban combat, and there is an armored division as
Speaker 4: well as a airborne division that was a raid to
Speaker 4: be able to do this offensive. A tank indicates to me,
Speaker 4: quite frankly, if they're going with a full option. A
Speaker 4: limited would be more special operations, reconnaissance driven. But when
Speaker 4: you have tanks inside cities, that indicates that it's a full,
Speaker 4: full invasion. Is that exactly That is exactly what the
Speaker 4: Biden administration did not want to see. So it looks
Speaker 4: like that's the case. Of course, we have to see
Speaker 4: more information on how this fully plays out.
Speaker 2: I'd like to ask you your thoughts on the temporary
Speaker 2: peer as I see images of the peer apparently having
Speaker 2: trouble staying afloat. This was put in place to the
Speaker 2: tune of many millions of dollars and a lot of blood,
Speaker 2: sweat and tiers by the United States military to deliver
Speaker 2: aid to Gaza, trying to get around some of the
Speaker 2: more obvious crossings that have been blocked. It hasn't been
Speaker 2: delivering nearly the aid that was expected. And I see
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's campaign manager tweeting a picture of this bridge
Speaker 2: starting to sinc calling it the Biden peer to nowhere.
Speaker 2: As this takes on political connotations, Mick, was this flawed
Speaker 2: in its concept to begin with?
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I got to point out just
Speaker 4: the herculean effort that the US Military Central Command, and
Speaker 4: particularly the Army component of that is who is responsible
Speaker 4: for this system, this Jaylot system, It is essential if
Speaker 4: it can be utilized by the humanitarian community. So The
Speaker 4: issue right now is to bring in a lot of
Speaker 4: AID disciples and get the barges running to the jaylots.
Speaker 4: It is significantly challenged in the weather conditions and the
Speaker 4: servicemen and women that are responsible for it and are
Speaker 4: doing everything we can to keep it up and running.
Speaker 4: But I do think if it is up and running
Speaker 4: and aid starts flowing, it is absolutely essential because aid
Speaker 4: is not coming in through say they're offa crossing right now,
Speaker 4: which is right in the middle of this offensive bin Rafa,
Speaker 4: and it's not coming in in anywhere near the quantities
Speaker 4: needed for this spelling and population in Gaza. So it's
Speaker 4: certainly not perfect, and nothing in a conflict or especially
Speaker 4: a maritime conflict environment is, but I do think it
Speaker 4: is essential, and the more AID it starts flowing over,
Speaker 4: I think it'll show its value, especially to the people
Speaker 4: who are on the verge of a famine in northern Gaza.
Speaker 2: Well, Nick, I know that you are among a group
Speaker 2: of specialized people who are trying to come up with
Speaker 2: alternative solutions here, and there's probably a lot that you
Speaker 2: can't talk about right now, But how do you see
Speaker 2: this playing out. We've tried air drops, we've built an
Speaker 2: entire pier here that may not be working. We're dealing
Speaker 2: with border crossings that are closed when trucks showed up,
Speaker 2: and of course Hamas willing to attack AID trucks and
Speaker 2: steal food when they do get through. What other option.
Speaker 4: Do we have, right, Joe, I really do think that
Speaker 4: the argument or the answer is not one or the other.
Speaker 4: It is all the above. There's about seven ground crossings
Speaker 4: into Gaza. It would be good if all of those
Speaker 4: were open. There's political issues in Israel, there's families of
Speaker 4: the hostages that block these, but they also need a
Speaker 4: maritime option. I mean, it's a twenty five mile long
Speaker 4: territory that has a twenty five mile long coastline. They
Speaker 4: would want to have a maritime option and that can
Speaker 4: bring in aid at scale. Air drops, although they can
Speaker 4: be used for specific cases, simply can't bring enough to
Speaker 4: make that much of an effort or that much of
Speaker 4: a difference. I do think the ground and maritime taken together,
Speaker 4: can not only decompress the situation when it came to
Speaker 4: fan Him, but potentially help in the rebuilding of Gaza
Speaker 4: when this ceasefire eventually does happen and the end of
Speaker 4: hostilities happens. That has to happen because right now eighty
Speaker 4: five percent of the dwellings in Gaza are uninhabitable. So
Speaker 4: this is something that I think is needed for the
Speaker 4: near and long term.
Speaker 2: Israeli defense forces. Say two militants, as I mentioned, were
Speaker 2: killed in this attack in Rafa. How many are left?
Speaker 2: What is left of Hamas in Rafa? Do we have
Speaker 2: an understanding?
Speaker 4: It's difficult, Joe to get a handle on that. The
Speaker 4: IDEAF said they have essentially dismantled or significantly degraded twenty
Speaker 4: of the twenty four battalions if you will, with the
Speaker 4: four remaining being in Rafa, which is why they believed
Speaker 4: they needed militarily to have to have this objective. It's
Speaker 4: unclear of how many were killed. I've seen estimates between
Speaker 4: ten and fifteen thousand. It was estimated to be around
Speaker 4: thirty thousand. But it's also critical for the IDF perspective
Speaker 4: to destroy the tunnel systems, which is very significant, and
Speaker 4: of course the advanced munitions, the rockets and such that
Speaker 4: they can use to really threaten Israel. And so I
Speaker 4: think there's a multi prom objective here when it comes
Speaker 4: to military they will not end Tamas the philosophy. Obviously,
Speaker 4: a terrorist organization is potentially could even increase in size,
Speaker 4: but they need to destroy the tunnels, they need to
Speaker 4: capture and kill the leadership, and they need to significantly
Speaker 4: destroy the munitions they can use to threaten Israel.
Speaker 2: Well, Nick, when you start to get aid flowing, we'd
Speaker 2: love to talk to you about how you figured this
Speaker 2: out in this ongoing effort. Mick mulroy, co founder of
Speaker 2: the Lobo Institute, thank you for helping us get started.
Speaker 2: Here on the fastest show in politics from Washington to
Speaker 2: New York and to Israel. This is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken
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Speaker 2: As we ponder the question after what we saw over
Speaker 2: the weekend, was it campaign malpractice to send the former
Speaker 2: president of the United States into a room full of
Speaker 2: libertarians only to be booed and heckled publicly at length?
Speaker 2: On Saturday? Did you see this this is at the
Speaker 2: Washington Hilton. Over the weekend, the Libertarian Convention enter Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: Let's watch at its national convention on Saturday, the Libertarian
Speaker 5: Party should nominate Trump for President of the United States.
Speaker 2: WHOA there you go? Spared you a good chunk of that.
Speaker 2: This went on forever. The heckling extended, booing to the
Speaker 2: point where Trump's asking, what the hell do you guys
Speaker 2: run for anyway? If you want just three percent? I
Speaker 2: don't know what he was doing there. He was followed
Speaker 2: by RFK Junior, who had a very deliberate message for
Speaker 2: libertarians who love him. Let's assemble our panel. Genie Shanzana
Speaker 2: was with US Bloomberg Politics, contributor, of course, democratic analyst
Speaker 2: and now senior Democracy Fellow with the Center for the
Speaker 2: Study of the Presidency in Congress. It's just joined by
Speaker 2: Lisa Camuso Miller, Republican strategist, former communications director at the
Speaker 2: Republican National Committee, host of the Friday Reporter podcast. Ginny
Speaker 2: and Lisa.
Speaker 6: Welcome.
Speaker 2: Lisa. I'll start with you. I know you're not running
Speaker 2: the Donald Trump campaign, but they did that on purpose.
Speaker 2: What did they get for it?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 7: Joe, I think I mean it's hard to really sort
Speaker 7: of get into the mind of what and why. But
Speaker 7: he still has to appeal to some of those that
Speaker 7: are in the room in that space, right, And so
Speaker 7: room really represents sort of the Republican yes, of course libertarian,
Speaker 7: but those of us that sort of live in a
Speaker 7: the former Republican party, right. So there's a lot of
Speaker 7: my colleagues and friends that I work with that live
Speaker 7: there today. And so if you're on the campaign, you're
Speaker 7: seeing that as an opportunity perhaps to appeal to some
Speaker 7: of those who are hardened against you and perhaps going
Speaker 7: to sit it out or even pull the lever for
Speaker 7: the Democratic candidate. But that's a tough crowd and it's
Speaker 7: really unfortunately, Joe, it's inside the Beltway, and it's an organist,
Speaker 7: it's an organization. They probably wasn't going to support Trump anyway.
Speaker 7: So I'm not sure it's going to have very much impact.
Speaker 7: Certainly it must have hurt the ego of the former
Speaker 7: president if nothing else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why put them through it? Because you know Lisa's right, Geanie.
Speaker 2: Does anyone in the world know that the Libertarian Convention's
Speaker 2: taking place? Well now they do when they look at
Speaker 2: their Twitter scroll and they see Donald Trump being disrespected
Speaker 2: for quite a length of time at the podium. What
Speaker 2: was the strategy here, Well.
Speaker 8: This is the third biggest political party in the country.
Speaker 8: They're on thirty seven, thirty eight ballots, so it's a
Speaker 8: big get. You know, when you talk about where the
Speaker 8: campaign miss stepped, I would suggest, if you put your
Speaker 8: candidate in there and ask them to nominate you, you
Speaker 8: should have done the.
Speaker 6: Paperwork to get that nomination.
Speaker 8: And of course the next day we find out that, oh,
Speaker 8: by the way, despite asking, the campaign just didn't do
Speaker 8: the paperwork, and he winds up with like two writ
Speaker 8: in votes or something, you know, just slightly worse than
Speaker 8: RFK Junior. So you know, it was a bad step
Speaker 8: by the campaign. I do think his overall instinct, or
Speaker 8: the campaign's instinct to go and try to spread this
Speaker 8: map is a good instinct. In this case, it seemed
Speaker 8: to have backfired. And I just loved him gaslighting them
Speaker 8: right back when they booed and heckled, he said, oh,
Speaker 8: you want to just repeat your three percent you get
Speaker 8: every four years, right, basically pumped off the stage in
Speaker 8: thirty minutes where they'll usually go ninety.
Speaker 6: So I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Well good.
Speaker 2: You know, we know a genie was watching on Saturday
Speaker 2: night one, a Memorial Day weekend. But you know RFK
Speaker 2: Junior showed up as well. He was there the next
Speaker 2: night and says, this is interesting. I want to hear
Speaker 2: from both of you on this potential wrinkle of pocket
Speaker 2: of real weakness for Donald Trump. So Lisa's point, these
Speaker 2: are in many cases conservatives in that room. R FK
Speaker 2: Junior says, Trump presided over the greatest restriction of individual
Speaker 2: liberties this country has ever known. This is why they
Speaker 2: were yelling at him, saying, you took our freedoms away. Quote.
Speaker 2: He did not stand up for the Constitution when it
Speaker 2: really mattered. Pointing to COVID, Now here's the line of
Speaker 2: the weekend. Maybe a brain worm made that part of
Speaker 2: my memory. RFK said, but I don't recall any part
Speaker 2: of the Constitution that creates an exemption for pandemics. Is
Speaker 2: this a problem for Donald Trump or is he such
Speaker 2: an extreme alternative to Joe Biden in a general election? Lisa,
Speaker 2: that COVID does not come up.
Speaker 7: Joe, he lost me at earworm or brainworm or whatever
Speaker 7: that is that he talks about. Take your break, you know,
Speaker 7: I don't necessarily think that this. I think it's he's
Speaker 7: a spoiler, and I think that he probably takes votes
Speaker 7: away from Joe Biden for those who aren't for Trump
Speaker 7: but don't necessarily feel good about the way the White
Speaker 7: House has been leading on the economy and foreign affairs issues.
Speaker 7: So that alone, I think just represents a threat that's
Speaker 7: not a Donald Trump threat as much as it's a
Speaker 7: threat to the sitting president in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a great point, Jeanie, your thought on that.
Speaker 2: It's not like Joe Biden can criticize Donald Trump about
Speaker 2: COVID restrictions.
Speaker 8: No, nor would he want to. And you know, I
Speaker 8: think the fact that we see, you know, Donald Trump
Speaker 8: and his campaign going after OURFK shows that they they
Speaker 8: feel and of course the evidence is sort of all
Speaker 8: over the map on this that they may be the losers.
Speaker 6: And you know, we can't forget that in an election that.
Speaker 8: Is at least the polls tell us as tight as
Speaker 8: this is, a few thousand votes matter, and so you know,
Speaker 8: just ask George Bush in nineteen ninety two, or just
Speaker 8: ask Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen, or Al Gore in
Speaker 8: two thousand. They all feel that their election was taken
Speaker 8: from them by a few thousand votes from a third
Speaker 8: party candidate with no hope of winning. So, you know,
Speaker 8: Donald Trump has that fear. I think Joe Biden to
Speaker 8: a certain extent, although they're feeling a little better on
Speaker 8: that point. So this is a challenge with RFK in
Speaker 8: there if he's able to get these votes. And you
Speaker 8: know the fact that, you know, the one thing that
Speaker 8: Donald Trump did, not the only thing, but one important
Speaker 8: thing he did was pushing so hard to get us
Speaker 8: to get some kind of vaccination from COVID, and he
Speaker 8: did it, and he has run away from it throughout
Speaker 8: this election for the very reason you were just talking about.
Speaker 8: It's absolutely maddening. I don't see how that brings back
Speaker 8: the voters. Lisa was talking about the Republicans who are
Speaker 8: Republicans of the past, if you will, They too got
Speaker 8: the vaccine, thankfully that he put into practice. So you know,
Speaker 8: I'm not sure how this helps Donald Trump or quite frankly,
Speaker 8: AREFK Junior. But it's a big deal in this Libertarian party.
Speaker 2: Well, it worked better than the Bleach, We'll say that, Lisa.
Speaker 2: I don't know to what extent Joe Biden's going to
Speaker 2: be answering questions about his response to COVID here, but
Speaker 2: if you ask him, it's a point of pride, right,
Speaker 2: this is not something that's going to be driving voters.
Speaker 2: It's going to be inflation, it's going to be the border,
Speaker 2: it's going to be abortion and so many of the
Speaker 2: other social issues that we're talking about here. It's also
Speaker 2: going to be foreign policy. And I'm by this tweet
Speaker 2: that we saw from Donald Trump's campaign manager. I mentioned
Speaker 2: it once earlier this hour. Chris Lszavita tweets a picture
Speaker 2: of the temporary peer in Gaza, which is half underwater.
Speaker 2: In this photograph, quote the Biden peer to nowhere, unquote
Speaker 2: symbolic of a campaign that we're reading about this morning, Genie.
Speaker 2: Democrats are having nightmares. All of a sudden, there's this
Speaker 2: realization that, hey, we're in trouble. To what extent, Lisa,
Speaker 2: is Chris Lasavita's tweet appropriate at this stage of the campaign,
Speaker 2: or maybe I should say accurate.
Speaker 7: You know this we're like in the silly season, right,
Speaker 7: always all the time, Joe. But I think it's indicative
Speaker 7: of how the papers and the stories everything today is
Speaker 7: reading is that This is going to continue to be.
Speaker 7: This conflict that's happening in the Middle East is going
Speaker 7: to be continued to be the biggest challenge for Joe
Speaker 7: Biden between now and November, and it overshadows every other thing.
Speaker 7: It overshadows any successes he has in the economy, in
Speaker 7: the beatback for inflation, just about everything, because this continues
Speaker 7: to hang over his head. As someone who, by the way,
Speaker 7: was the chair of the Foreign Relations Committee right when
Speaker 7: he was in the Senate, he's someone who really sees
Speaker 7: this as his legacy, and the fact that he warned
Speaker 7: Benjamin Netanyahu about going into Rafa, the fact that he
Speaker 7: and the UN and everyone else has warned that this
Speaker 7: not happened. While I think it's probably off color for
Speaker 7: Lasavita to be saying that in the morning after terrible,
Speaker 7: terrible losses in Gaza, I also think too that he
Speaker 7: probably sees this as the biggest challenge for the Biden campaign.
Speaker 2: What do you think about this, Genie? I want to
Speaker 2: give you a chance to reply, because the story in
Speaker 2: Israel is getting worse now that we're certainly we're talking
Speaker 2: about a very difficult weekend here in Israel and a
Speaker 2: solution in the form of this peer that does not
Speaker 2: appear to be working. I realize that this could change,
Speaker 2: but we've got tanks, Israeli tanks in the center of Rafa,
Speaker 2: and Joe Biden talking about red lines that don't seem
Speaker 2: to exist.
Speaker 8: You know, I think, Chris Lasovito, it's absolutely shameful.
Speaker 6: And I agree with Lisa.
Speaker 8: The morning after, or hours if you will, after, we
Speaker 8: see forty five innocent people killed babies. The pictures coming
Speaker 8: out of there are absolutely horrific. And you send over
Speaker 8: a picture of a bridge that our government and our
Speaker 8: military folks on Memorial Day weekend, by the way, they
Speaker 8: have put in hours of blood, sweat and tears to
Speaker 8: get that up and running. And it may not be
Speaker 8: at the point where we all want it to be
Speaker 8: at this point, but the goal is admirable. The work
Speaker 8: has been hard, and it has been for something I
Speaker 8: would think all Americans, regardless of your political party or
Speaker 8: candidate of choice in the twenty four election, would be
Speaker 8: supportive of which is getting aid into civilian populations that
Speaker 8: desperately need it. To make fun of that bridge to nowhere.
Speaker 6: Blah blah blah. It's shameful, you know.
Speaker 8: Joe Biden, as President of the United States doesn't have
Speaker 8: the luxury of sitting back like Donald Trump does as
Speaker 8: a former president in office, He's got to have make decisions.
Speaker 8: He drew a red line that's going to come back
Speaker 8: to be something he's going to have to address, and
Speaker 8: we will see where he goes with that once we
Speaker 8: have more information on what happened. But I thought the
Speaker 8: tweet or whatever las Vita sent out was shameful. This
Speaker 8: is the work of our military, this is the work
Speaker 8: of our government, and you would think they would be
Speaker 8: patriotic enough on Memorial Days to support that.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what Donald Trump's Memorial Day tweet
Speaker 2: or truth I guess it was, Lisa, would make you
Speaker 2: wonder about his thoughts on theh He did not mention
Speaker 2: Americans who served the country or who have died for
Speaker 2: the country. He wrote a message to the quote unquote
Speaker 2: scumbags who have opposed him politically and legally. Is the
Speaker 2: nation ready for four more of that?
Speaker 5: I don't know, Joe.
Speaker 7: I mean, look, I'm a kid of a family that
Speaker 7: has served right and they considered from now until the
Speaker 7: end of time, will consider the former president of draft Dodger.
Speaker 7: They do not have a lot of respect for him
Speaker 7: and the way he treats or talks about our armed services.
Speaker 7: They do not like the fact that he says what
Speaker 7: he says. This is the head of all armed services,
Speaker 7: This is the top of the top, and this is
Speaker 7: the way he talks about. Are those who go into
Speaker 7: these places and keep us safe here at home? Are
Speaker 7: we ready for it? No, Joe, we are definitely not.
Speaker 7: Does it look like we're headed that way? It absolutely does.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I guess to an extent, it's been normalized.
Speaker 2: Just to be clear, I said, scumbag. It's quote happy
Speaker 2: memorial data all including the human scum that is working
Speaker 2: so hard to destroy our once great country and of
Speaker 2: the radical left, Trump hating federal judge in New York
Speaker 2: that presided over. I could go on, but there's not
Speaker 2: enough time or enough caps. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington.
Speaker 2: Glad you're with us.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 2: Bring our attention to Lower Manhattan. Of course, that is
Speaker 2: the trial, the criminal trial of Donald Trump. Today, closing
Speaker 2: arguments are now officially underway, and this could be a
Speaker 2: pivotal week here in the trial. It is expected that
Speaker 2: this case will go to the jury, likely Wednesday or Thursday,
Speaker 2: and then of course it's off to deliberations, and we'll
Speaker 2: see what happens with that. Many are addicting a short
Speaker 2: turn in deliberations here, we'll see what Robert Makewerder thinks
Speaker 2: a reliable voice for us and understanding each phase of
Speaker 2: this trial, he's back with us now, Criminal and Constitutional
Speaker 2: law attorney Robert the idea is here, and we heard
Speaker 2: it from the judge. Closing arguments may well last into
Speaker 2: tomorrow after the last many weeks. Why take so long
Speaker 2: to sum up the case?
Speaker 5: I think that the defense is just looking for things
Speaker 5: to say. I don't know why it would take so long.
Speaker 5: It's not it is somewhat of a complicated case. But
Speaker 5: you know, the prosecution can lay out exactly what went
Speaker 5: on here. You don't have to go into a great, big,
Speaker 5: huge dissertation on things. And I'm not sure how much
Speaker 5: the defense is going to say. They're going to meticulously
Speaker 5: try to attack everybody. Spend a lot of time on
Speaker 5: Michael Cohen, a lot of time on Ms Daniels, But
Speaker 5: I don't know that they're going to get to the
Speaker 5: essential issue. You know, one thing that the defense is
Speaker 5: never adequately explained here is nor did they deny, is
Speaker 5: that there was a one hundred and thirty thousand dollars
Speaker 5: payment made to miss Daniels. They don't really have an explanation.
Speaker 5: They say, well, Donald Trump didn't sleep with her, and
Speaker 5: somehow she was extorting him. But then are they really
Speaker 5: saying that Donald Trump is the kind of man who
Speaker 5: would pay off an extortionist. I don't think so. They
Speaker 5: don't have a good explanation, and I think that the
Speaker 5: argument that maybe Michael Cohen did this out of the
Speaker 5: goodness of his heart to help Stormy Daniels just doesn't
Speaker 5: go anywhere.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump seems to be learning a little bit more
Speaker 2: about the process today. Robert. Maybe if he'd hired you,
Speaker 2: he would have known the way this works with closing arguments.
Speaker 1: Quote.
Speaker 2: This is a post on social media. Why is the
Speaker 2: corrupt government allowed to make the final argument in the
Speaker 2: case against me? Why can't the defense go last? He
Speaker 2: writes a big advantage, very unfair, which hunt exclamation point, Robert,
Speaker 2: this is the way it works. It's supposed to work
Speaker 2: this week. Correct, when you carry the burden of proof.
Speaker 5: The government has the burden of proof. That's why the
Speaker 5: law gives them the last shot. There is a rare situation.
Speaker 5: If the government was to come up with something totally
Speaker 5: new in their last shot, you can get what's called
Speaker 5: sir rebuttal. But it's very very very rare, and the
Speaker 5: government would have to really do something. And I don't
Speaker 5: see the state prosecutors doing this. The state prosecutors have
Speaker 5: kind of given us a master class in how to
Speaker 5: structure good prosecution. It structured well. Their cross examinations were excellent,
Speaker 5: they present the presentations of the witnesses were appropriately sequenced
Speaker 5: and timed. So I don't see them making any kind
Speaker 5: of blender like that. And mister Trump, can you know
Speaker 5: if you notice mister Trump spends a lot of time
Speaker 5: complaining about procedures because he doesn't really want to talk
Speaker 5: about the facts.
Speaker 2: Well, we will note that he has pleaded not guilty
Speaker 2: in this case. But after six weeks and twenty two witnesses,
Speaker 2: is Robert, what is this jury about to go through
Speaker 2: And why does everyone seem to think that this will
Speaker 2: be a brief deliberation.
Speaker 5: Because what the jury is going to do is of
Speaker 5: course they're going to be going to the room. I
Speaker 5: would guess that if closing arguments end today, which they could,
Speaker 5: the case will be over before Friday. If closing arguments
Speaker 5: don't end until Thursday, then it might extend it to
Speaker 5: the weekend and they'll come back. My prediction is this
Speaker 5: case will be over before Friday, and they're going to
Speaker 5: have to deliberate. I think that the deliberation will be
Speaker 5: somewhat short because the quality of the defense is not
Speaker 5: very high. I think mister Trump had some good lawyers,
Speaker 5: but he was calling the shots here. And I think
Speaker 5: mister Trump is far more interested in what's going on
Speaker 5: outside of the courtroom than he is what's going on
Speaker 5: inside of the courtroom. Everything is designed for his political messaging.
Speaker 5: And look, I'll give you one example. He complains that
Speaker 5: he can't you know, has to be in this trial
Speaker 5: and he can't go on campaign. Well, if he goes
Speaker 5: out to campaign in the Bronx, he talked to maybe
Speaker 5: eight thousand people at that rally. His staff claimed it
Speaker 5: was twenty five thousand, but the police now it was
Speaker 5: only eight thousand. Well, okay, so he can't go do that.
Speaker 5: But you do realize that every day after trial he
Speaker 5: gets to go talk to many million because it gets
Speaker 5: free media time. When he makes a statement after every
Speaker 5: day's course of proceedings, you know, that's free media coverage
Speaker 5: that reaches millions versus a rally that might reach a
Speaker 5: few thousand. So he's really designed this to his favors,
Speaker 5: and he's prepared everybody for his argument after he loses.
Speaker 5: He's not running around saying this is a great fair jury.
Speaker 5: In fact, if they end up acquitting, he's going to
Speaker 5: be in a kind of a strange situation of turning
Speaker 5: around and say, well, I guess everything really was fair.
Speaker 5: So I just don't think that the defense has much
Speaker 5: quality here in terms of what they're saying. They can't
Speaker 5: explain certain key issues like why did Stormy Daniels get
Speaker 5: paid one hundred and three thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like you're bracing for a conviction on
Speaker 2: at least some of these thirty four charges here. CBS
Speaker 2: News is reporting that the Secret Service has in fact
Speaker 2: met with New York Corrections officials to discuss the possibility
Speaker 2: of incarceration. Robert, I don't know if that's something that
Speaker 2: you're allowing for. If there's a couple of days in
Speaker 2: a room somewhere, but obviously Donald Trump wouldn't be alone
Speaker 2: in that room. He would require Secret Service protection no
Speaker 2: matter where he went. Does this sound like a formality
Speaker 2: to you or a potential reality?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 5: I think these are smart agents who figure out they
Speaker 5: have to plan for every contingency. It is a very
Speaker 5: real possibility that Donald Trump will get convicted, and so
Speaker 5: they have to plan for that eventuality a defendant, immediately
Speaker 5: he would go into the custody Well, let's be clear,
Speaker 5: if he receives jail time on this, he will go
Speaker 5: into custody of the New York Department of Corrections. When
Speaker 5: that happens is a little open. It probably wouldn't happen
Speaker 5: right after conviction, but there is a possibility of that
Speaker 5: the judge could decide to do that. In all likelihood,
Speaker 5: you're going to have about a month or so before
Speaker 5: a sentencing hearing, and then Donald Trump will requested he
Speaker 5: be allowed to be released pending his appeal. So it's
Speaker 5: going to be several months before that eventuality would happen
Speaker 5: and he actually would be put in jail, and the
Speaker 5: judge for a first time offense may decide not to
Speaker 5: give him jail time. However, given mister Trump's behavior, if
Speaker 5: mister Trump wasn't mister Trump, he would most surely be
Speaker 5: looking at jail time for his behavior and the ways
Speaker 5: conducted himself during the.
Speaker 2: Trump Well, it is interesting that he apparently violated the
Speaker 2: gag order a couple of times since the weekend. But
Speaker 2: we're beyond gag orders at this point. With this trial
Speaker 2: about to resolve, I've got less than a minute here, Robert.
Speaker 2: Does the impact of celebrity move this jury or are
Speaker 2: we beyond that when it's a former president?
Speaker 5: Well, we don't know. We don't know how this affects
Speaker 5: the jury. In high celebrity cases, I think defendants get
Speaker 5: an extra kind of benefit. I mean, just look at
Speaker 5: OJ Simpson's case, for instance, he gets a greater benefit.
Speaker 5: If there is a rabid Trump supporter on this jury,
Speaker 5: they could gum up the entire thing. If there's one
Speaker 5: or two, that means there could be a hung jury. Now,
Speaker 5: if a juror decides not to deliberate at all, the
Speaker 5: other jurors can tell the judge and that jury jury
Speaker 5: can be replaced. But if it's somebody who just is
Speaker 5: going to gum the whole things up, well then you
Speaker 5: could have a mistrial here and this trial could be
Speaker 5: race scheduled to be tried again.
Speaker 2: Well, you're the first person we'll call. Robert mcwurd or
Speaker 2: a criminal constitutional law attorney. Thank you, Robert for being
Speaker 2: with us. I suspect we may be talking again this week.
Speaker 2: I hope that is the case.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken
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Speaker 2: Thirty and some interesting storylines coming out of the weekend here,
Speaker 2: very few of them good for Joe Biden. Even as
Speaker 2: we talk this day about closing arguments in the criminal
Speaker 2: trial of Donald Trump, the headlines from Israel are very
Speaker 2: problematic for a president who is already watching progressive Democrats
Speaker 2: reconsider their support based on Israel policy. When you consider
Speaker 2: the polling now the approval numbers. Some of the polls
Speaker 2: we saw on Friday from the Cook Political Report from
Speaker 2: Emerson painting a picture that is very consistent with Bloomberg
Speaker 2: polling that shows the president potentially losing this race, at
Speaker 2: least in the swing state. So everyone wakes up to
Speaker 2: Politico this morning and the playbook full blown freak out
Speaker 2: is the headline. And we thought boy Cliff Young might
Speaker 2: have something to say about that, because he's actually doing
Speaker 2: his own research at IPSOS and a great voice on
Speaker 2: the campaign for us here at Bloomberg. He's with us
Speaker 2: at the table. Now, how are things. You had a
Speaker 2: long weekend, The lawmakers are gone, You can park where
Speaker 2: you want in Washington.
Speaker 1: What else?
Speaker 9: It's a great day.
Speaker 1: It is a great day.
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming in. You're attempting to answer this
Speaker 2: great question that is kind of a flip to are
Speaker 2: you better off now than you were four years ago?
Speaker 2: You're asking what is the greatest problem facing America? And
Speaker 2: I guess we shouldn't be too surprised by what you
Speaker 2: found because we talk about it here on Bloomberg every day.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's the economy, and more specifically it's inflation and
Speaker 9: more problematic for the Biden camp is at their core constituencies,
Speaker 9: Younger Americans, Hispanic Americans, black Americans, affluent Americans all are
Speaker 9: affected by inflation. Now, it's not rates. People don't understand
Speaker 9: rates inflation rates. It's about price levels and ability to
Speaker 9: make ends meet. And there's a lingering effect of this,
Speaker 9: and this is problematic for the Biden campaign.
Speaker 2: Although a young perspective homeowner might be able to talk
Speaker 2: to you about rates, or somebody who owes money on
Speaker 2: a car, right, there aren't ways in which interest rates
Speaker 2: are biting us in a literal way. But you go
Speaker 2: back to Joe Biden a couple of weeks ago predicting
Speaker 2: that interest rate cut, and boy was he projecting, wasn't he.
Speaker 9: Yeah, he really wanted things to be better. They know
Speaker 9: their problem, right, But once again, if you were paying
Speaker 9: two years ago one hundred and fifty for basic food
Speaker 9: stuffs and today you're paying one hundred and seventy, that's
Speaker 9: twenty dollars more that you're paying, and that's twenty dollars
Speaker 9: more that you don't have. And I think that there's
Speaker 9: been a lot of tone deafness among the Democrats, among
Speaker 9: elites understanding how the average person the average American goes
Speaker 9: about their day to day, and their day to day
Speaker 9: is counting nickels and dimes.
Speaker 2: That's right. And it's not just the trajectory of inflation.
Speaker 2: It's where prices are now versus where they were then.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: We talk about slowing inflation as if this is a
Speaker 2: great thing, but it just means that prices are going
Speaker 2: up still but at a slower rate.
Speaker 9: Slower Yeah, but there's still not a win. Yeah, that's
Speaker 9: not a win. That's not a win. And the experience
Speaker 9: is that you need time, you need wages to increase
Speaker 9: at the same rate, if not at a greater rate.
Speaker 9: And it's not about the overall average. We're not talking
Speaker 9: about the United States. We're talking about individuals in these
Speaker 9: key demographics as well as in the key swings days.
Speaker 2: So that's number one, and that did not surprise us.
Speaker 2: So number two did surprise me, and I'd love your
Speaker 2: thoughts on this. By the way, the economy at twenty
Speaker 2: three percent most important problem facing America. Number two is
Speaker 2: political extremism, and if you're with us on Bloomberg TV,
Speaker 2: you can see it was right behind the economy at
Speaker 2: twenty one percent. This is something shared by both sides.
Speaker 9: Yeah, So on the democratic side, it's threats to democracy
Speaker 9: and who's a threat Donald Trump. It's a way to
Speaker 9: mobilize the anti Trump vote. And on the other side
Speaker 9: is what are issues of polical streamism and problems with
Speaker 9: the democracy. It's a broken system, and who's going to
Speaker 9: fix the broken system? Donald Trump? And so in my mind,
Speaker 9: looking forward, if the economy continues to improve, we should
Speaker 9: see that as threats to democracy and polical streamism becoming
Speaker 9: the number one issue. But today that's not the case.
Speaker 9: Today it still is the commune inflation, and I would
Speaker 9: say it's Biden's Achilles Hill.
Speaker 2: You're surprised to see immigration at thirteen percent in some polling.
Speaker 2: During the early States, it was the number one issue
Speaker 2: for primary voters.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a critical issue. It's a critical issue on
Speaker 9: the borders. It's a critical issue among Republicans. It's what
Speaker 9: Trump won on in twenty sixteen. And if you have
Speaker 9: a black Swan event, some sort of mad rush at
Speaker 9: the border, something that's really really symbolic and apparent, it
Speaker 9: could swing things as well. It is a Republican issue,
Speaker 9: it is a Trump issue.
Speaker 2: The issue of Israel is something that's been dogging Joe Biden,
Speaker 2: and I always hear that voters don't make decisions based
Speaker 2: on geopolitics, but this one has been resonating on a
Speaker 2: domestic level in a.
Speaker 1: Very real way.
Speaker 2: He's certainly worried about if the campaign has been directing
Speaker 2: resources in a way that makes that clear specifically in Michigan,
Speaker 2: but across the country. When it comes to progressives, this
Speaker 2: strike in Rafa over the weekend, forty five more civilians
Speaker 2: killed is bad news for the White House and for
Speaker 2: the campaign. How is the issue playing on the trail?
Speaker 9: He needs it to go away, and so it doesn't
Speaker 9: help him on the margins. We saw the primary votes
Speaker 9: in Michigan. That's problematic for Biden and for the Democrats.
Speaker 9: But when push comes ashove, it's in flame over the
Speaker 9: war in Gaza across all demographic groups. So yes, it's
Speaker 9: an issue, but it's a issue specifically in specific places.
Speaker 9: The real issue, once again is still inflation and the
Speaker 9: inability of certain Americans in certain constituency groups to make
Speaker 9: ends meet.
Speaker 2: Spending time with Cliff Young from IPSOS and his great
Speaker 2: polling in research that helps us find some interesting trends
Speaker 2: here on the campaign trail, talk to me about approval ratings.
Speaker 2: You can give us a little seminar on this with
Speaker 2: Joe Biden at about forty percent, history tells us why.
Speaker 9: Cliff, Yeah, So we have a database at episodes of
Speaker 9: hundreds elections around the world. We call this our Salad
Speaker 9: bold approach. We just kind of throw everything together and
Speaker 9: mix it up a bit. But what does it tell us?
Speaker 9: It tells us basically that a sitting president at forty
Speaker 9: percent approval rating has better than a fifty to fifty
Speaker 9: chance of winning the next election. To be very specific,
Speaker 9: it's fifty five percent chance of winning the next election.
Speaker 9: So we've been tracking over time and seeing where Biden's
Speaker 9: approval ratings are, and they're right at that tipping point
Speaker 9: depending on how you put it together, how you count it.
Speaker 9: If you take all the average of all the polls
Speaker 9: out there, it's about at thirty nine point five. It's
Speaker 9: not a good place to be at this point.
Speaker 2: For a water technically, though relatively speaking, he's seen way worse.
Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, his head's like poking out of the water.
Speaker 9: He's keeping yeah it than he's falling below.
Speaker 2: What's it looked like in the curve over the course
Speaker 2: of this term.
Speaker 9: He has been. It's been basically a fluctuation around a mean,
Speaker 9: which is an average, which is like they haven't moved
Speaker 9: at all. He's been a little bit below, a little
Speaker 9: bit above, a little bit below, a little bit above,
Speaker 9: and that's where he's been. I had the expectation that
Speaker 9: he would have improved by now, and that is not
Speaker 9: the case. So he's in a difficult place when it
Speaker 9: comes to that metric.
Speaker 2: Getting back to the big freak out headline at Politico
Speaker 2: this morning, is it time to freak out? We're told
Speaker 2: frequently people don't pay attention to labor Day. He's got
Speaker 2: a lot of money. He doesn't seem to have a
Speaker 2: donor problem, although he did on a monthly basis fall
Speaker 2: behind Donald Trump for the first time in this cycle
Speaker 2: last month. When you look at the next six how
Speaker 2: much bandwidth does this campaign have to turn it around?
Speaker 9: Well, the campaign hasn't started, and so it hasn't started.
Speaker 9: It really hasn't started. I mean the heavy lifting people
Speaker 9: say it's too well, I think it's a little premature.
Speaker 9: I think what we're coming to the market in general,
Speaker 9: and I say I is coming to terms with is
Speaker 9: that Donald Trump has a significant, non zero chance of winning.
Speaker 9: We know that now when it comes to Biden camp,
Speaker 9: he has a lot of has he has a lot
Speaker 9: of weaknesses that one would expect that with an improving
Speaker 9: economy that he'd be able to work out. But the
Speaker 9: campaign hasn't started. He hasn't taken his case in a
Speaker 9: coherent way to the people, to his constituency groups. And
Speaker 9: we will see what happens once that happens.
Speaker 2: Does it start with the first debate? Is that when
Speaker 2: people tune.
Speaker 9: In, Well, I think it's very telling that we're having
Speaker 9: a first debate when we are Yeah, obviously the Biden
Speaker 9: camp is submit not so they think they have to
Speaker 9: make a statement. Yeah, And I think if not freaking out,
Speaker 9: they are feeling the pressure and believe they have to
Speaker 9: have a concrete proof point showing that he is in
Speaker 9: the game.
Speaker 2: Well, we're having a watch party that night. You should
Speaker 2: come by. Okay, great to see Cliff Young always at
Speaker 2: the desk here at Bloomberg with us from ipso's polling.
Speaker 2: We always learned something when we talk to Cliff. He's
Speaker 2: the president of US Public Affairs at IPSO.
Speaker 1: SEM.
Speaker 2: Great to have you with us, sir on balance of power.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make
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