1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,080
Speaker 1: There has never been a global synchronized collapse of mental health.

2
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,400
Speaker 1: This is far larger than anything we've ever seen in

3
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,400
Speaker 1: terms of its effects on kids. This is way way

4
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:09,280
Speaker 1: larger than COVID.

5
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,119
Speaker 2: How much buzzed about book The Anxious Generation is available

6
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 2: now is of course Jonathan Hite.

7
00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,840
Speaker 1: Girls are extraordinarily anxious and depressed. Boys are extraordinarily undeveloped.

8
00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,040
Speaker 1: We shouldn't have kids with a massive entertainment center in

9
00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,360
Speaker 1: their pocket by which strangers can reach them. This is

10
00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,080
Speaker 1: complete insanity.

11
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 3: Hey everyone, I've got some huge news to share with you.

12
00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,519
Speaker 3: In the last ninety days, seventy nine point four percent

13
00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,879
Speaker 3: of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are

14
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,640
Speaker 3: not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that

15
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 3: if you want to create a habit, make it easy

16
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,199
Speaker 3: to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a

17
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,640
Speaker 3: habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed.

18
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 3: This would also mean the absolute world to me and

19
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,840
Speaker 3: help us make better, bigger, brighter content for you and

20
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 3: the world. Subscribe right now.

21
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,199
Speaker 1: The number one health and wellness.

22
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:14,399
Speaker 2: Podcast, Jay Sheety Jay Chetty see dyet, Hey everyone, welcome

23
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 2: back to On Purpose to place you tune into to

24
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 2: become happier, healthier, and more healed.

25
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,480
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for investing in your growth and

26
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,360
Speaker 3: your journey by being here today as I'm about to

27
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,880
Speaker 3: interview one of my favorite authors, a researcher, a professor

28
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 3: that I'm so excited to talk to. I've been wanting

29
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,840
Speaker 3: to have this conversation with him about many of his books,

30
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,600
Speaker 3: and we're finally here for his latest installment. It's called

31
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 3: The Anxious Generation, How the great rewiring of childhood is

32
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,040
Speaker 3: causing an epidemic of mental illness. Please welcome to On

33
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 3: Purpose Jonathan Heit. Jonathan, thank you for being here, Thank

34
00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 3: you for making the time and spending this energy with us.

35
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,760
Speaker 1: Oh my pleasure, Jay, Thanks for having me.

36
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 3: This is a conversation that I feel, as I was

37
00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 3: saying to you offline, which is so critical and central

38
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 3: for our listeners. I know that everyone who's tuned in,

39
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 3: whether it be right now on YouTube or listening to

40
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,600
Speaker 3: us on an audio platform, this is of the number

41
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,600
Speaker 3: one concern in their life, which is their personal mental

42
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 3: well being and then the mental wellbeing of their children

43
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,320
Speaker 3: and the people that they care about and love. And

44
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,639
Speaker 3: I think when I first saw the title the Anxious Generation.

45
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,160
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how there's this rhetoric that has

46
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 3: become quite normal in society around how every generation has

47
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 3: had their anxiety, whether it was the World Wars, whether

48
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 3: we talk about, oh, we have social media, but you know,

49
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 3: kids back in the day had black and white TVs

50
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 3: and then color television, and then they had video games,

51
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 3: and so I feel like there's been this rhetoric that

52
00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,600
Speaker 3: social media is just the latest installment in a host

53
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,160
Speaker 3: of previous technologies that have made old people worried about

54
00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,480
Speaker 3: young people. Why is this different?

55
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: So that is the main counter argument I get is

56
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,680
Speaker 1: from people say, oh, we've been through this before. When

57
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 1: I was a kid, we watched too much television, but look,

58
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 1: it didn't do anything to us. And it is true

59
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,960
Speaker 1: that ever since modernity began, so beginning in the seventeenth century,

60
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: when the pace of change really begins to accelerate, generation

61
00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 1: and generation, the next generation actually is a little different

62
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 1: from the previous one. And generally we think the next

63
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,959
Speaker 1: generation they're kind of soft, you know, they don't have

64
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 1: our virtues, they have funny habits. So that's always been

65
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,440
Speaker 1: going on, and that's what I'm a late baby born

66
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 1: I was born in nineteen sixty three, so that's what

67
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 1: we thought about, you know, you know, the millennial generation.

68
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 1: You know, oh, there are always just you know, folks

69
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,160
Speaker 1: on their coffee and their avocado toast. They're not serious.

70
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 1: But actually, and you're a millennial, I believe, right, Yes, yeah,

71
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,720
Speaker 1: that's correct. Some millennials are born in nineteen eighty one

72
00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 1: through nineteen ninety five roughly. But the millennials, their mental

73
00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 1: health was actually pretty good, better than Gen X actually,

74
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: and they're an amazingly successful generation. They were creative, they

75
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,000
Speaker 1: traveled the world, they start companies. So that's the normal

76
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 1: intergeneration difference. This time is really really different because all

77
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 1: of a sudden, in twenty twelve twenty thirteen, it's like

78
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: someone flicked on a light switch, and all over the

79
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: developed world. We don't have data from the developing world,

80
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,279
Speaker 1: but all over the developed world, certainly the English speaking

81
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:22,479
Speaker 1: countries Scandinavia, girls in particular, began to get depressed, anxious,

82
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 1: they began to cut themselves, they began checking into psychiatric

83
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: words right around twenty thirteen. In the US, it's very sharp.

84
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: Right around twenty thirteen. It sometimes is a little bit,

85
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 1: but it's basically the early twenty tens. This has never

86
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: happened before. There has never been a global synchronized collapse

87
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 1: of mental health. This is far larger than anything we've

88
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 1: ever seen in terms of its effects on kids. This

89
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 1: is way way larger than COVID. This is affecting most kids.

90
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,680
Speaker 1: So I'm engaged in debates with other scholars about, well,

91
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,280
Speaker 1: why did this happen? And what I'm marshall in the

92
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,280
Speaker 1: book is the evidence that it's not just a coincidence.

93
00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 1: It's not just a correlation that, oh, that's exactly when

94
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 1: when kids basically switch from flip phones to smartphones was

95
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 1: between twenty ten and twenty fifteen all over the world.

96
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,040
Speaker 1: But I'm showing that there's a lot of experimental evidence

97
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,600
Speaker 1: that shows causation. And another film makes us different. The

98
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 1: kids themselves say it. So when I was a kid,

99
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 1: we watched too much TV. But you didn't see kids

100
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,160
Speaker 1: organizing to keep kids off TV. You didn't see kids saying, oh,

101
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 1: please save us from TV. You know we're stuck watching it.

102
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,960
Speaker 1: We don't want to be watching it. But that's what

103
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,880
Speaker 1: young people are saying about social media. I just saw

104
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,119
Speaker 1: a survey the majority, the majority of people of all ages,

105
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 1: including young people, say they would rather that TikTok was

106
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,520
Speaker 1: never invented. They're spending time on it because everyone else is,

107
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 1: but they see that they're trapped. So this is so

108
00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,679
Speaker 1: different from any previous moral panic.

109
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,400
Speaker 3: That's so fascinating to hear that. It's the first time

110
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,160
Speaker 3: that people are actually saying, well, kids are actually saying

111
00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 3: that this experience is something that we're feeling, yet we

112
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,159
Speaker 3: feel so trapped, addicted in exactly.

113
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 1: And that's what my students say at NYU. That's what

114
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 1: students say on surveys when you ask them, why do

115
00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,040
Speaker 1: you think mental health is so bad in your generation?

116
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: The most common answer is social media. They see it happening,

117
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,640
Speaker 1: The parents see it happening to the kids, the teachers

118
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,120
Speaker 1: see it happening to the kids. So there's all kinds

119
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,080
Speaker 1: of eyewitness testimony, like people see this happening. It's not

120
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,800
Speaker 1: just like hmm, I wonder if it's the phone. It's like, no,

121
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,120
Speaker 1: we see the evidence of it.

122
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:20,839
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated.

123
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 1: Why are people debating you, Well, there are so you know,

124
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: I'm an academic and we publish our articles and journals,

125
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,479
Speaker 1: and there are some people who have been studying media

126
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,120
Speaker 1: for a long time, and many of them are very technophilic.

127
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 1: They like technology. They some of them like video games.

128
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 1: Have been writing about the benefits of video games, and

129
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,360
Speaker 1: there are some And so I think they come to

130
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 1: this prepared to believe that this is just another moral panic.

131
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,560
Speaker 1: We've been through this with television and video games and

132
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,800
Speaker 1: before that comic books. The eighteenth century was novels. People

133
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,240
Speaker 1: didn't want young women to read novels because stimulate their

134
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 1: sexual appetites. So they sort of approach it with like,

135
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 1: you know, this is just another one of those moral panics.

136
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,159
Speaker 1: And then I keep in this work with Gene Twangient

137
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 1: and Zach Rausch, we keep showing like no other explanation works,

138
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,360
Speaker 1: this time is different. This is not just some artifact

139
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: of kids being more willing to talk about it. This

140
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 1: is the same curves and self report you see those

141
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 1: same curves and hospital admissions and psychiatric emergency department business.

142
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 1: So this is not just some illusion. But you know,

143
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,880
Speaker 1: there's about four or five the five or six researchers,

144
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,720
Speaker 1: you know, they're serious researchers, and they look at the

145
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 1: same data I do, and they they say, well, the

146
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 1: correlations are too small to explain it, or they say,

147
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's mostly correlational, they're not enough experiments, and

148
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 1: I say, okay, look, I found twenty five experiments, sixteen

149
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,040
Speaker 1: of which do show a causal effect. You know, with

150
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: a random assignment. The kids who are the young people

151
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 1: who are assigned to do less social media in the

152
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 1: first few days, maybe the mental health is bad because

153
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 1: they're addicted, but if you wait three or four weeks

154
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 1: on average, they feel better. So I say, look, here

155
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 1: are all these experiments, and they say, well, the experiments

156
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 1: aren't good enough. Here's a flaw in that one, here's

157
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: a flaw on that one. So this is a normal

158
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 1: academic debate. I'm not going to change their minds ever.

159
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 1: They're not going to change my mind ever. This is

160
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 1: just the way these things go. But as we argue

161
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,000
Speaker 1: it out in public, the rest of the world can

162
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 1: look and they can say, what are my arguments? What

163
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: are their arguments, and then they'll decide.

164
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And from reading your book and your work,

165
00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 3: what I understand is you, actually, I'm not saying social

166
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 3: media doesn't have benefits either. That's not really what you're saying.

167
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,840
Speaker 3: You're not saying that there is no validity to it.

168
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,760
Speaker 1: Well, well, what I would say is for adults, social

169
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 1: media has many benefits. So you know, obviously many people

170
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 1: start their businesses. Look, I use Twitter to get my

171
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,760
Speaker 1: research out. So for adults, so think about this. These

172
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 1: are these These used to be called social networking sites

173
00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 1: because originally they were just ways to connect people. And

174
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,079
Speaker 1: as an adult, I have a need to network and

175
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,520
Speaker 1: it's useful to me. And LinkedIn is useful, Twitter is

176
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 1: useful many you know, Facebook groups are used. These are

177
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 1: all useful for adults. But let's talk about middle school kids.

178
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,680
Speaker 1: So in America, middle school is roughly ages eleven to thirteen.

179
00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,719
Speaker 1: Let's talk about kids just beginning puberty. How much need

180
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 1: do they have to network? How much do they need

181
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 1: to meet strangers, strange men who are approaching them? How

182
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,719
Speaker 1: much do they need that? How much do they need

183
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,120
Speaker 1: social media to connect with their friends? The telephone was

184
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: an amazing invention. You pick it up, you press some numbers,

185
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,680
Speaker 1: and you can talk to your friend anywhere in the country,

186
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 1: anywhere in the world. So we already had that. How

187
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,839
Speaker 1: much more help did eleven and twelve year old need

188
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 1: to connect with their friends? And so I would argue,

189
00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 1: then when we look at middle school, this is my

190
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: main focus is early puberty. Early puberty, the brain is

191
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 1: extremely vulnerable because the frontal part of the brain is

192
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,040
Speaker 1: rewiring very rapidly. Growth is slow during childhood, but it's

193
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 1: very rapid in puberty. And so I would say that

194
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 1: for eleven, twelve, thirteen year old kids, I'm willing to

195
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 1: say there aren't really any benefits and the harms are extraordinary.

196
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 1: So that's why I say we need to just raise

197
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,599
Speaker 1: We need to raise the ages. We should have a

198
00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 1: norm that no one gets a smartphone before high school.

199
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,120
Speaker 1: We shouldn't have kids with a a massive entertainment center

200
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 1: in their pocket by which strangers can reach them, companies

201
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 1: can reach them. And we should raise the age of

202
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 1: social media opening account from thirteen, which is at present

203
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,240
Speaker 1: not enforced, to sixteen, and enforce it. If we do

204
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,679
Speaker 1: those two things, we'll really get at Lisa handle. We'll

205
00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,080
Speaker 1: protect kids during early puberty.

206
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to get on to all of

207
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,920
Speaker 3: those points. I think one thing before that, I think

208
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 3: the word anxiety. In some cases, we've become so numb

209
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,439
Speaker 3: to it. Yeah, it's become so normalized. It is the

210
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 3: norm to hear someone you know as anxiety, someone you

211
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 3: love as anxiety, children have anxiety, and I feel that

212
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 3: word has been so repeated over the last five to

213
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,679
Speaker 3: ten years, maybe that we've become numb to it, and

214
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 3: because of that, we don't really understand, and which you

215
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 3: do spend a lot of time in the early parts

216
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 3: of the book not only defining what anxiety is an experience,

217
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:55,160
Speaker 3: but the extent to which anxiety affects our normal, everyday functioning.

218
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 3: Could you give us a short summary on that, which

219
00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 3: I want people to dive into the book to read

220
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 3: the deeper research on, but could we at least explore

221
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,400
Speaker 3: what are the implications what is anxiety and what are

222
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,360
Speaker 3: the implications of anxiety in the long term, if not

223
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 3: for some of these recommendations you're suggesting.

224
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,559
Speaker 1: So, the most important emotion for animals is fear. Fear

225
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: is across all the different species vertebrates and vertebrates. There's

226
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,559
Speaker 1: a very you know, huge lung evolution. A lot is

227
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: known about fear because if you've ever been snorkeling or

228
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,200
Speaker 1: out in the woods, you know that life for animals

229
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 1: is you're looking food. You're looking for food, and then

230
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,320
Speaker 1: you're dead because someone jumped on you. So all of animals,

231
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,959
Speaker 1: including us, have a hair trigger alarm system. That's normal,

232
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 1: that's healthy. So that's fear. Now, sometimes that's when you're attacked,

233
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 1: you're threatened. Now, sometimes you're in an environment where you

234
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 1: don't see a threat per se, but it's you're very

235
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,559
Speaker 1: wary of it. And so let's say, you know, so

236
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,839
Speaker 1: humans are much more afraid in the dark because in

237
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 1: the dark you're much more likely killed by nocturnal hunting animals.

238
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,040
Speaker 1: So we have an innate fear of the dark. It

239
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 1: doesn't mean we're necessarily for it, but we're just a

240
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 1: little more on edge. And so that's your brain saying, okay,

241
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,200
Speaker 1: we're gonna shift the alarm system over. We're gonna make

242
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,840
Speaker 1: you a little warier. If anything happens, you're gonna jump,

243
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 1: whereas if it was broad daylight, you would just look

244
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: and say what was that. So our brains are these

245
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:27,079
Speaker 1: incredible survival machines that have very very deep circuits for fear,

246
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,200
Speaker 1: which mobilizes us to fight or to flee or fight,

247
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,199
Speaker 1: and then for anxiety, which is more diffuse, just a

248
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,240
Speaker 1: general sense of threats. Now, when the fear system is

249
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: triggered and then you take action and then it shuts off.

250
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,640
Speaker 1: That's normal, that's healthy. But as many of your listeners

251
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: will know, chronic stress causes an increase in circulating cortisol.

252
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,800
Speaker 1: It keeps your stress system on. Stress is not bad.

253
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,280
Speaker 1: Kids need stress, but short term stress, but we have

254
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,040
Speaker 1: long term stress. Now you have hormonal dysregulation, You have cortisol,

255
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: which has many functions in the body, but high levels

256
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,959
Speaker 1: of court is all exposed you to all kinds of

257
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,199
Speaker 1: health problems, joint problems, immunity, I mean, I forget the

258
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 1: whole list. Of course, has so many effects. So what's

259
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,080
Speaker 1: happening is young people they've always been anxious young people.

260
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: Some people are set to anxious, some people are set

261
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,200
Speaker 1: to more calm. That's always been the case, but there's

262
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,400
Speaker 1: a shift so that more and more kids are closer

263
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 1: to the anxiety side. Now part of this is they're

264
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: told there's a lot of talk actually just this week

265
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,760
Speaker 1: or two, there's a lot of talk about how these

266
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,280
Speaker 1: programs that teach kids to label their emotions, and they

267
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,240
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, where you're afraid, where you anxious.

268
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,559
Speaker 1: They seem like they're well intentioned. It seems, you know,

269
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,680
Speaker 1: social emotional learning There is some basis to that decades ago,

270
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,199
Speaker 1: but it seems that it's moving in a direction of

271
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 1: teaching kids to dwell on their own emotions, always be

272
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 1: looking in word, how did that make you feel? How

273
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:52,640
Speaker 1: do that make where you anxious?

274
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,000
Speaker 3: You know? What we know?

275
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,280
Speaker 1: Where can you go for help that this there's actually

276
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 1: not much evidence that this is helping, and there's some

277
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,480
Speaker 1: new studies suggesting that this stuff backfires, This is actually

278
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 1: making kids more anxious. What kids would I argue in

279
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 1: the book is what kids really really need to overcome

280
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,719
Speaker 1: anxiety is exposure. Go out and play, and sometimes you

281
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,839
Speaker 1: will be afraid, and sometimes you'll climb a tree and

282
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 1: you'll go too high and you're afraid. I remember those

283
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 1: feelings from my childhood. But that's how you get over

284
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 1: childhood anxieties. We're sitting inside in a classroom with a

285
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 1: teacher giving you an emotion circle and saying, which of

286
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 1: these emotions are you feeling right now? Johnny? You know?

287
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: And sometimes they're asked, have you thought about suicide? Have

288
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 1: you thought about harming yourself? And they ask this over

289
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,760
Speaker 1: and over again. So this suggests to kids that they

290
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 1: are weak, that they have these emotions and if they

291
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: have these emotions, it's a problem. So I think we're

292
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 1: you know, the mental health community, you know, I think

293
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 1: we're just we're not we're not recognizing what's driving the epidemic,

294
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,640
Speaker 1: and we're not doing things that would effectively reverse it.

295
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,600
Speaker 3: What is the root of that? Because I feel like

296
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 3: the research oscillates in some cases, or at least as humans,

297
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 3: we like to oscillate. There's this idea of the past,

298
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,600
Speaker 3: and I human it's the opposite of what you just said,

299
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 3: where when you were young you weren't allowed to feel.

300
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 3: I think everyone's experienced that idea of oh, don't worry,

301
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 3: everything will be okay, or oh it doesn't matter that

302
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 3: you feel pain, like everything will be fine, let it go,

303
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 3: or you know, don't cry or things like that. And

304
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 3: so that was one extreme, and then the other extreme

305
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 3: is what you're saying now, where it's like, well, let's

306
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,920
Speaker 3: talk about every emotion and give it equal waiting and

307
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 3: give it equal priority. What is the middle?

308
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 1: And Yeah, so I'm saying kids need adversity, they need

309
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,040
Speaker 1: to sometimes be excluded. So all of that is necessary.

310
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 1: If you ask any parent, how many times would you

311
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,240
Speaker 1: like your child to be excluded? You just have a

312
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 1: newborn child. Your child's going to turn eighteen eighteen years.

313
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 1: In those eighteen years, how often do you want your

314
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 1: child to be excluded and to feel excluded? And anybody

315
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,640
Speaker 1: who says zero, they're speaking from their heart, but they're

316
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 1: not speaking from their head. I would never hire someone

317
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,160
Speaker 1: who's never been excluded. This person is going to be

318
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,480
Speaker 1: very difficult to have normal human relationships. Sometimes they won't

319
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: be included, and that's not a big deal. So we

320
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 1: need adversity now. I think what you're saying is it

321
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 1: used to be we were too insensitive, and that's true.

322
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: And there are a couple of categories, especially so bullying.

323
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 1: Bullying is really really bad. But what we have to

324
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 1: be clear about is bullying is not aggression. Bullying is

325
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: aggression or humiliation directed at a kid day after day.

326
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 1: It has to be over time, because aggression is a

327
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,040
Speaker 1: normal and necessary part of childhood. You have to let

328
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 1: kids experience aggression, express aggression, express hostility. You have to

329
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 1: allow that and let them work it out now now,

330
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: and then there will be a problem. There'll be one

331
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 1: kid who is picking on another kid, and that kid

332
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 1: doesn't want to go to school. And if that goes

333
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 1: on for more than a day. Now it's bullying, and

334
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 1: now we need to be responsive. When I was a kid,

335
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 1: we weren't. In the seventies that we weren't and in

336
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: some countries I know at the time, you know, in

337
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 1: Japan and Korea there were horrible I mean, the culture

338
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: around bullying and English boarding schools I've heard. So it's

339
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: great progress that we're being more SENSI about bullying. Obviously,

340
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 1: the shaming of LGBTQ kids that it was constant when

341
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,120
Speaker 1: I was a kid, but now it's much much better.

342
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,880
Speaker 1: So in many ways we do need to be more sensitive.

343
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,680
Speaker 1: But I think the gist of your question is have

344
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:10,640
Speaker 1: we overshot?

345
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:10,920
Speaker 4: Have we?

346
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 1: And I would say yes, we have really overshot. You know,

347
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 1: if there's any you know, recess in America is often

348
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 1: very heavily monitored, and as soon as there's any kind

349
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,160
Speaker 1: of conflict, adult comes in. When my kids, my kids

350
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,640
Speaker 1: went to New York City public schools, they go they're

351
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 1: still there in high school, and so that kind of

352
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,959
Speaker 1: attention to let's make sure no one's upset, let's make

353
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,399
Speaker 1: sure no one's excluded. You know, my daughter and her

354
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 1: friend they formed a little club, but they were, you know,

355
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,639
Speaker 1: on the playground. They were like, no, you can't do that.

356
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: You can't exclude anyone. That's crazy. Kids need to play

357
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 1: with that. So anyway, that's I think we've gone too far.

358
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, talking about recess, I believe is in your book

359
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 3: that you said that the average recess time will outdoors

360
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,760
Speaker 3: Thomas thirty seven minutes.

361
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,359
Speaker 1: The numbers vary, it depends on but in elementary school,

362
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,399
Speaker 1: I've heard numbers as low as twenty seven minutes as

363
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 1: the average average. Yeah, across the day, and sometimes that's

364
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 1: combined with lunch. Some kid it's only yet twenty five

365
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 1: minutes including lunch, and so you go to you know,

366
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,360
Speaker 1: you're kids need to run around, they need recess. There's

367
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 1: a lot of research on this play helps them learn,

368
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 1: helps them attend later. But in America at least, and

369
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 1: in East Asian countries, I imagine we're so focused on

370
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,360
Speaker 1: test scores on that we think what five and six

371
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 1: and seven year olds is needed is more math, and

372
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 1: they don't. They don't need more math. What they need

373
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 1: is more play time and then they'll learn more in

374
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 1: a shorter amount of math. In the United States, if

375
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: you are in a federal maximum Security penitentiary, you are

376
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,360
Speaker 1: guaranteed two hours a day of yard time. You can't

377
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,399
Speaker 1: keep it inhumane to keep them in their cells all

378
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: day two hours of yard time. But if you're an

379
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 1: elementary school student the United States, you have no guarantee,

380
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 1: and it's it's very often as little as twenty seven minutes,

381
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 1: including lunch, which means you have to stand in the

382
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 1: lunch line that takes ten minutes. You get your lunch,

383
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: you have, you know you will fit down in five minutes.

384
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,800
Speaker 1: You have whatever five minutes left to play. This is

385
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 1: complete insanity. If we want to get to handle on

386
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: the mental health crisis, I think we need to back

387
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,879
Speaker 1: off on the adults instructing kids about their emotions, do

388
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: a lot less of that, and take all the money

389
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 1: and all the time we're spending on that and give

390
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:11,440
Speaker 1: kids more play.

391
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Jay here. My wife and I have

392
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 3: had so much fun creating our own sparkling tea Juni

393
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 3: and I've got big news for you. It's at Target

394
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 3: and we'd love your support. If you can go out

395
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 3: grab a juny. You'll be adding adaptagens and new tropics

396
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 3: into your life with mood boosting properties aimed at promoting

397
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,439
Speaker 3: a balanced and happy mind through our commitment to our

398
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 3: wellness journey and striving to fuel our bodies with the

399
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 3: healthiest ingredients. It's been our purpose to make healthy choices

400
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 3: accessible for all, which is why Juni is now on

401
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 3: shelves at Target. So head to our store locator at

402
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 3: Drinkjuni dot com and find Juni at a Target near you.

403
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 3: You talk about what we need as children, you're talking

404
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 3: about the need for play. Is play truly just play?

405
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 3: Or is there certain parameters, certain ideas, certain thoughts that

406
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 3: make play more effective.

407
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: Yes, play is a mammalian universal. So mammals, you know,

408
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 1: the first mammals whenever it was that some females began

409
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,880
Speaker 1: to secrete milk from glands in their skin. It's kind

410
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,640
Speaker 1: of an amazing evolutionary adaptation for having a longer childhood.

411
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 1: You know, other animals they lay an egg and that's it.

412
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: Animals on their own. But mammals, we have this long,

413
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: long childhood and that allows us to have much larger

414
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 1: brains and much more complex social behavior compared to say, reptiles,

415
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: and so we have this long childhood and especially the

416
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 1: social animals, so dogs more than cats. But you know

417
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: dogs and humans and are incredibly playful creatures. We have

418
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: a puppy at home. She's now a year and a half.

419
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,120
Speaker 1: She still looks like a puppy. She wants to play

420
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: all the time, and she has to play. That's the thing,

421
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: since all mammals play when they're young, and they take risks.

422
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 1: So evolution isn't stupid. Evolution didn't say we're going to

423
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: let these these baby animals practice jumping out of trees

424
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 1: and practice getting in fights for no good reason. No,

425
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 1: there's a very good reason. That's what you have to

426
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 1: do to train your brain to reach adulthood. And that's

427
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: why for hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years,

428
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: you could say, all human children played unless they were

429
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 1: being seriously deprived of play and stuck in a factory.

430
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: So we and in America, we had play all the

431
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: way up through the nineteen nineties. That's when we begin

432
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: to lose it. In the nineties we freak out in

433
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 1: America and Britain in Canada and we say it's too dangerous.

434
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 1: You'll be abducted, you'll be sexually molested. No, you stay home,

435
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: or you stay under supervision. Oh, and there's this fabulous

436
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: new Internet, So why don't you spend more time on that.

437
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: That's what happened in the nineties, and that's when childhood

438
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 1: really departed from the human need for play and independent

439
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: activity and became oversupervised, helicopter parented, restrained, restricted, And you

440
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 1: can play on a video game in a way, but

441
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 1: it's not embodied. Whereas we're physical creatures. We need to run, jump, touch, wrestle, hug.

442
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: You know, I remember doing all those things with my

443
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: with my friends when the second or third grade, we

444
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 1: would sometimes hug each other or pick each other up,

445
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 1: or wrestle.

446
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 3: You know.

447
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: It's children are physical like puppies. But but now you

448
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: know kids, they're on their screen all the time. There

449
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: can be a playful element, but there's no risk, there's

450
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 1: no physicality. They don't learn the social skills that you

451
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: do from face to face encounters.

452
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 3: When you were saying that, I was actually thinking back

453
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 3: to a trip I took to Rwanda two years ago,

454
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 3: and I was thinking about our gorilla friends who we

455
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 3: share I believe over ninety six percent of our DNA

456
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 3: with and watching the young gorilla's play outdoors and even

457
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 3: you to about wrestling, and.

458
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, and it was such a huch because

459
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: we're primates. Primates have arms, and primates use their arms

460
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: in play, and you see it with all you know,

461
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 1: with chimpanzees and bonobos and gorillas. Yeah, and it's so cute, right.

462
00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: We love watching it because we mammals as adults, we

463
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: are primed for cuteness because that triggers in us a

464
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: protective instinct over the kids. So we have this protective

465
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: instinct and unfortunately it's kind of run rampant.

466
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 4: You know.

467
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 1: It used to be the kids are out of the house,

468
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: you don't see them, but now we can monitor kids

469
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: all the time, and we're just we're swooping in too quick.

470
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I mean I think we all resonate with that,

471
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,719
Speaker 3: even as adults. There's this beautiful quote from George Bernard

472
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 3: Shaw where he said that we don't stop playing because

473
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 3: we get old. We get old because we stop playing. Beautiful, Yes,

474
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 3: And I think that we can relate to that. I

475
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 3: can relate to the as this idea that I misplay.

476
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 3: I think the challenge is that, as you said, in

477
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties, when things started to veer off course,

478
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 3: now children given the choice generally are going to choose

479
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 3: indoor video games, phone time, ipadd and they're not going

480
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 3: to choose play. So I think the challenge becomes, now

481
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 3: that our taste buds have become technological, how do we

482
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: rewired that taste bud when we've been so diverted. That's right.

483
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: So it's not clear whether it's that the taste buds

484
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: have become technological or that the technology has adapted so

485
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: profoundly that it now knows exactly what we most want.

486
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: So I was born in nineteen sixty three. I remember

487
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: when the game Pong came out. It's the first video

488
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: game you could get on your home television. So it

489
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: was very, very crude, but it's amazing. You turn a

490
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: knob and you can play tennis. And I'd sit there

491
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: with my friend and we'd do that for you know,

492
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: twenty thirty minutes, then we go do something else. So

493
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: these video games were not immersive. They were fun and

494
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: you played with a friend. But once you get you know,

495
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: you get graphics cards, you get color monitors, you get

496
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: high speed internet, you get multiplayer video games. These games

497
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 1: are incredible. I mean, my son plays Fortnite. I didn't

498
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: let him on in sixth grade when he was eleven,

499
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: but I did let him on thirteen around COVID time.

500
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: These games are incredible and as a boy, what's most

501
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: is wargames, and so the games just get better and better.

502
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: And this is actually something we need to talk about.

503
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 4: You know.

504
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: So much of the talker is about social media and girls.

505
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: With boys, it's a different problem boys. There are many

506
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: that are harmed by social media. Many are driven to suicide.

507
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it's okay for boys, but

508
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: social media is is not so correlated with depression and

509
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: anxiety for boys it is for girls. For boys, what's

510
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: happening is the technology is so amazing and the real

511
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: world is getting more and more inhospitable to them. I mean,

512
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: we've been really trying to reduce prejudice against girls and

513
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: open up girls and bring them into every that's all great,

514
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: but girls are just so much better in school. They

515
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: just do better in school. They school is made for

516
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: more of a female child than a male child. You

517
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: sit still, you learn, you please the teacher. And we've

518
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: we've pushed out rough and tumble play. We've reduced recess.

519
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: There's no more shop class, So boys aren't enjoying school

520
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 1: as much as girls. Boys are enjoying the technology more

521
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: and more. And it's not just the videogainst also the pornography.

522
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: So you know, war games and sex those are deeply

523
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: appealing to boys and young men. And as the technology

524
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: gets better and better. Now, you know, if you're a

525
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: boy with budding sexual urges and you have two choices,

526
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: one is the most incredible pornography you've ever seen, and

527
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: then soon there'll be goggles. Soon they'll be put into

528
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: sex dolls and robots. I mean, you can have this

529
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: amazing sex life that you can customize. You can customize

530
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: the body size, you can customize the personality. You know,

531
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: you can have virtual girlfriends and boyfriends now, so boys

532
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: are finding a video game, play in pornography more and

533
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: more satisfying. And it's just difficult to arrange a soccer

534
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: game with your friends, that's just difficult, where let's just

535
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: meet online, And it's difficult to flirt with the girl

536
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: and develop a relationship and fall in love and have sex.

537
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: That's really hard. So I think we're losing boys. And

538
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: it's not just because their taste buds are rewired. It's

539
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: because the technology is amazingly good at learning. What do

540
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: we most want, Let's deliver that. But it's not what

541
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: we most need, it's what we most want.

542
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: And what's the cost of that. What's happening to boys'

543
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 3: brains and minds?

544
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: So the big picture is that boys are failing to

545
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: have the kinds of experiences that will toughen them, teach

546
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: them skills, teach them virtues, and turn them into men.

547
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: Boys development is different from girls development. All around the world. Traditionally,

548
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: boys generally initiation rights involve more toughening toughness demonstrations. And

549
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: we can say this is terrible and patriarchal, but I

550
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: actually think it's important. So you know, all kids start

551
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: off in the female sphere we live. We're all raised

552
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: by mothers and girls and aunts traditionally around the world,

553
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: and so girls stay within the female world, and girls

554
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: initiation rights are usually pegged to puberty to menstruation, and

555
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: then they're taught all the secrets of being a woman.

556
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: All that boys have to make the transition from the

557
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: women's world into the men's world and less. So today,

558
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it needs to be this way, So

559
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it generally is to some extent, boys

560
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: development is different from girls development. And boys if you

561
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: give them the easy way out all the time, many

562
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: of them will take it, and then they don't grow,

563
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: they don't toughen, and so I think what we're seeing

564
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: now is a generation gen Z born after nineteen ninety

565
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: six and later, in which the girls are extraordinarily anxious

566
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: and depressed, much more so than the boys. But the

567
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: boys are extraordinarily undeveloped. Many people say they have no

568
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: social skills, they don't look you in the eye, they

569
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: don't know how to behave in public. They certainly don't

570
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: know how to talk to a girl. So I think

571
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: we're seeing just a massive, massive blockage of development. And

572
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, gen Z the oldestar twenty eight. We'll see,

573
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: we'll see if they come out of it. But when

574
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: the millennials were twenty eight, they had already invented so

575
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: many companies, they were inventing technologies. I mean, the millennials

576
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: by twenty eight they were like, you know, a meeting,

577
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: you're streaking across the sky. And gen Z seems much

578
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: more to be hunkered down, like you know, talking about

579
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: their anxiety. So I'm not blaming them at all, it's

580
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: not their fault. We deprive them of play, we put

581
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: touch screens in their hands. Then they had the bad

582
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: luck to you basically come out of college, the eldest

583
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: of them, right into COVID. So those in their twenties now,

584
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: their work experience was truncated. What they need is mentoring

585
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: in a real office or a real job, and they

586
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: didn't get it. So again I'm not blaming, but man,

587
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: we have to have a lot of sympathy and we

588
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: have to make sure this stops. We have to stop

589
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: this right now.

590
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: And I think that's the challenge. Right. A lot of

591
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: people say, well, people are going to have virtual girlfriends

592
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: and we are going to live in the virtual world,

593
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: and everyone's going to go home and put their headset

594
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: on and you know, disappear, disappear into the abyss and

595
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: then we'll be wearing it all day, not just in

596
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: the evenings. And so there's that belief system that actually,

597
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 3: we're just getting better at using the technology that will

598
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: define our future success anyway, or future failure if we

599
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: don't know it. But you're saying that, there's just what

600
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 3: are the I guess the harsher implications of what does

601
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 3: this look like in twenty years time.

602
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm very influenced by. One of the puzzles

603
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: that I first tried to deal with is why, you

604
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: know what made gen Z?

605
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: Why?

606
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: Because when I started this work, when I started writing

607
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: The Carlie the American Mind with Greg Lukianov, we first

608
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: wrote an article in twenty fifteen in the Atlantic, and

609
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: we thought college students were millennials. You know, the millennial

610
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: generation started in nineteen eighty one, and it was expected

611
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: to be if you're born all the way up through

612
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: two thousand, you're a millennial. That's what we thought. But

613
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: then Gene Twangi came out with her book Eye Jen

614
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: and her research showing that kids born around nineteen ninety

615
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: six and later are very different, much higher rates of

616
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: mental illness. And so when you look at the millennial generation,

617
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: their mental health is actually pretty good. You know, the

618
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: youngest millennials are a little bit more like gen Z.

619
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: But for the most part, the millennials mental health is fine.

620
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: They made it through puberty before they got their first

621
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: smartphone and social media account. So if you didn't get

622
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: a so you know, millennials, like a lot of them,

623
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: got you know, Facebook, when they were in college. In fact,

624
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: originally Facebook was only for college students. You had to

625
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: be in college to get Facebook. So what we see

626
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: in the data is that if you didn't get a

627
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: smartphone in social media until you were eighteen or older,

628
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: your mental is fine.

629
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: Now.

630
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: You know, let's say you're a thirty five year old.

631
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: Right now, you might feel overwhelmed. You might feel that

632
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: this thing was stressing you out, but you had normal

633
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: brain development. You you used technology when you were a kid.

634
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: You had a flip phone. You used it to connect

635
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: with other kids. You used it. You know, you'd have

636
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: to text, and it was hard to text, and you

637
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: had to use your thumbs and press number keys. But

638
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: you use the technology as a tool to help you

639
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: meet up with your friends where maybe you called them

640
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: on the phone. That was it. That's all your phone

641
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: could do. But if you got a smartphone in social

642
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: media at the start of puberty, which is what almost

643
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: all kids do now, that means you're going through puberty

644
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: on social media and with a massive entertainment, with a

645
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: supercomputer and an entertainment system in your pocket with you

646
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: all the time. So my point is this, if we

647
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: can protect childhood and let kids get through puberty and

648
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: then we give them the goggles and the virtual girlfriends

649
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: and everything else. Their lives are still going to be

650
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: kind of messed up by this stuff, but at least

651
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: their brains matured and they're probably not going to be

652
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: depressed anxious for life if we keep giving it. You know,

653
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: it used to be at you know, ten eleven is

654
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: when kids get their first smartphone. Now it's more it's

655
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: going down to five or six. If we keep giving

656
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: little children a touchscreen device, including an iPad, and using

657
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: it as a babysitter and saying, oh, yeah, yeah, you

658
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: just you know, here, here's here's your device. I'm busy,

659
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm doing email, I'm cooking, here's your device. If we

660
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: keep doing that, we're not Our brains are not going

661
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: to adapt to that. Children's brains are not going to

662
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: somehow evolve so that that becomes okay. It's not going

663
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: to be okay.

664
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's it's such a harsh reality, but

665
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: it's true that people have less time. We have less,

666
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: we are doing so much more. It seems we are

667
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: living further away from family. There's so many reasons why

668
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: the iPad is becoming the babysitter that feels validated because

669
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 3: we're not living in bigger family spaces. We don't have

670
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: the support of our neighbors. We don't have we don't

671
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: have the resources or the funds to have a paid

672
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: babysitter or whatever it may be. So there's so many

673
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: almost valid reasons for why we even say take the iPad.

674
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: No, that's right again. You know, in my book, I

675
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: have almost no really no criticism for parents. And some

676
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: people say, you know why, it's the parent's responsibility. It's therefore,

677
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: why aren't you blaming the parents, to which my answer is,

678
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a parent. I know a lot of parents,

679
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: a lot of us are really trying and it's really hard.

680
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the technological environment now is such that you know,

681
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: if you don't give your kid a smartphone, she's left out,

682
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: and she, you know, says dad, I'm the only one.

683
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm left out. So parents are trying. And as a

684
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: social psychologist who studies morality, I know that if one

685
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: person does something that seems evil, well maybe they're maybe

686
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: they're evil. But if an entire society and if an

687
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: entire planet change is at the same time in the

688
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: same way, it's not individual's fault. And so if parenting changed,

689
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: certainly across the English speaking world, we can't blame the

690
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: parents for that. There must be some reason why we

691
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 1: all freaked out and began overprotecting. So yeah, I don't

692
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: blame I don't blame the parents. I say we're stuck

693
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: in systemic problems, and I'm proposing norms by which we

694
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: can escape.

695
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: And I think anyone when I've been mentioning you were

696
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: coming on the show, I was talking to people about

697
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: your work, and I was talking about your recommendations of

698
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: no social media before sixteen, no phones before fourteen. And

699
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: I don't think there's any adult that I spoke to

700
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: that had any debate with either of those. I think

701
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: everyone looked to me. You know, I'm talking to everyone

702
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: twenty five and up, But anyone that I talked to

703
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 3: twenty five and up, when that makes perfect sense, I

704
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 3: think that's a great idea, and what a brilliant recommendation.

705
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: Like when do we get started?

706
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: That's right?

707
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: Right, that's right.

708
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: People are ready to get started because everyone sees it,

709
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: everyone's sick of it.

710
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, And obviously in the book you hold, you say,

711
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 3: here's what governments can do. Here's what technology companies can do,

712
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: his what schools can do. I think my question is,

713
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: and I know you've talked about what they can do

714
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 3: in so many other places, which is fantastic. My question is,

715
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 3: how do we actually get that to be a reality?

716
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: Like what does it actually take to change norms? Because

717
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: I was trying to think, and I'd love your take

718
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 3: on this, like when was the last time we tried

719
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: to do that in any sphere of life? Oh? Sure,

720
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: and how did it go? Oh and so did it work?

721
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 3: And where did it fact?

722
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: So we have a lot of experience with norm changes.

723
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: So one of the clearest is smoking. It took twenty

724
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: or thirty years. When I was in high school in

725
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: the seventies, you know, a bunch of kids smoked. Most

726
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: of us didn't put a bunch of high school kids smoked,

727
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: you know age, you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, And beginning

728
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: in the eighties or nineties, there was an anti tobacco

729
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: campaign and it took a few decades, but the rates

730
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: of smoking are very very low. Now now there's vaping.

731
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: Kids moved on to vaping, which is bad, but not

732
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: as bad as smoking. Norms around LGBTQ and shaming and

733
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: bullying and using racial slurs. These norms have changed radical

734
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: in the last twenty or thirty years. So norm change

735
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: normally happens over the space of a few decades, and

736
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: we have many, many examples we've been studied. So some

737
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: things get more moralized, like smoking is now seen as evil,

738
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: whereas homosexuality, which used to be seen as evil, is

739
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: now seen as perfectly okay. So norms change over the

740
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: course of decades. What's happening now is very different. What's

741
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: happening now The digital world has put us into an

742
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: environment in which things can spread within minutes. I mean

743
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: this has never happened in human history. Norms can spread

744
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: around the world in days, and not norms, but ideas

745
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: or means can spread around the world in days. And

746
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: what that means is that norms can change very quickly too,

747
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: And so all over the world, all over the develop world,

748
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: in twenty ten, kids had flip phones, no social media

749
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: on their phones. In twenty fifteen we have now the

750
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: phone based childhood. All over the world. Kids are behaving

751
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: the same way. So that changed very quickly, and that

752
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: put pressure on everyone else to do the same thing. Okay,

753
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: so we're stuck in this collective action problem that emerged

754
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: very very quickly. But by the same token, we can

755
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: escape very very quickly, because wherever I go, the main

756
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: counter argument I get is parents who say, ugh, you know,

757
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: it's just it's too late. The trains left the station.

758
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: What are we going to do? This is the way

759
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: of the future. So resignation is really the only obstacle

760
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 1: I'm facing. But most parents, so many parents are upset

761
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: by this that they're ready to act if only some

762
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: way can be found to coordinate them. So in the UK,

763
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: I just got back from London a few days ago.

764
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: In the UK, the Parents' Revolution started in February. A

765
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: couple of mothers, Daisy Greenwell and Claire Reynolds, they just

766
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: put up on an Instagram post. They put up that

767
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: they'd started a WhatsApp group for parents who wanted a

768
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: smartphone free childhood. They were going to delay giving their

769
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: kids smartphones, and like overnight, tens of thousands of British

770
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: parents signed up. There's a limit on WhatsApp groups they

771
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 1: had to form locally. They had to form hundreds of

772
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: WhatsApp groups. It's spread like wildfire and what I'm finding

773
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: I've been involved in a lot of efforts to change

774
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: ideas and norms. It's very hard, takes decades on this one.

775
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: I don't have to convince anyone on this one. It's

776
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: like everyone's ready to act. They just need to know

777
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: what to do. And so you know, I'm proposing these

778
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: four simple norms as you said, the two that I

779
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: would add that I add that we haven't mentioned our

780
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: phone free schools. We must keep the phones out of school,

781
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: just lock them up as soon as you come in.

782
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: That is doable. This can be done by September.

783
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

784
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: And the fourth is give far more free play and

785
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: independence in the real world. That's the hardest one, actually,

786
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: but that's incredibly important. So let me actually just take advantage.

787
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: I'm actually very excited that you have this gigantic global audience.

788
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: Next question, Okay, how can we help?

789
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: Great?

790
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 3: What can we do? Because I want to be a

791
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: part of the mission.

792
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: Great? Great, So here's what I can say. First, let

793
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: me just give a little background, which is is this

794
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: just happened in the United States. No, if listeners, if

795
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: you so all over the world, please go to after

796
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: Babbel dot com. After B A B. E. Al it's

797
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: my sub stack. It's free, nothing's behind a paywall. That's

798
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: where we're putting our research out and you'll find articles there.

799
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: We have one post on how the mental health epidemic

800
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: is hitting all the Anglosphere countries, and so Zach rouse

801
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: this was his first international post. We've gathered all the

802
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: mental health data we can from around the world. Most

803
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: countries don't have any, but the developed countries often do,

804
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: so we can show that the same thing is happening

805
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: at the same time in all the Anglo countries. And

806
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: then he moved on to Scandinavia. Same things happening at

807
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: the same time in the Scandinavian countries. Now that's very

808
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 1: interesting because I just had an interview with a Finnished

809
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: journalist this morning and she said, you know, in Finland

810
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: we let our kids out, like our kids at seven

811
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: eight they're out playing. But even still, she says, they

812
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: go outside to play and they sit down and they're

813
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: on their phone because they all have phones from the

814
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: age of you know, six or seven. So this is

815
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: happening all over the developed world in Europe. Zach has

816
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: a post on the rest of Europe. It's especially northern Europe.

817
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: It's a little less so in Eastern Europe in southern Europe.

818
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: So first, there is variation around the world in mental

819
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: health that is definitely important. But what I'm finding is

820
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: parents everywhere are seeing their kids not playing. They're seeing

821
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: them sit on their phones at recess. In countries where

822
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: the kids can have a phone in their pocket at recess,

823
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: the kids are often sitting down on their phones. They're

824
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: not running around and yelling and laughing. So, wherever you

825
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: are in the world, figure out, you know, figure out

826
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: whether you have this problem. You probably do that. Your kids,

827
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 1: even if they're not depressed, they're missing most of childhood,

828
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: They're missing adventure. There, probably have fewer hobbies, they probably

829
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: don't read books, they probably don't spend much time with

830
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: other people. So this is going to influence them in

831
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 1: a bad way around the world. And then start talking

832
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: to other parents. The simplest thing. Most of us are

833
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: on a text thread with the parents of our kids friends.

834
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 1: Because you had to arrange for this birthday party, Okay,

835
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: I'll pick them up and you know, so we're all

836
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: in contact with the parents of our kids friends. Just

837
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: start with that, say do you know, do you see

838
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: this problem? Are you concerned, and especially if you have

839
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: younger kids, you can delay when you know, you can

840
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: delay when you give your kid a smartphone. If your

841
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: kid's friends are in the same boat, then it's not hard.

842
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: That's the point of this collective getting out of the

843
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: collective action problem. I would also urge anyone around the

844
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: world bring up the subject of phone free schools if

845
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: you're child. So a number of countries France, Australia, a

846
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: few countries have and Britain just have guidance that schools

847
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: must go phone free. They must either lock them up

848
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: or lock up the phones in a locker, special locker

849
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: or in a yonder pouch of lockable pouch. But if

850
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: your country doesn't do that, start advocating for it. If

851
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: you go to Anxious Generation dot com, that's the website

852
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: for the book. We have a whole research page. Look

853
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: at that. Send that to people. I have all kinds

854
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: of talks I've given on YouTube. You can find my

855
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: YouTube channel lectures about why we need to go phone free.

856
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: So that's right, that's the thing we can do this year.

857
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: We can do it in twenty twenty four is make

858
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: all our school's phone free and that will allow our

859
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: children to learn more because when they're sitting in class,

860
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: they don't have the world's greatest entertainment center in their hand,

861
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: and they're not texting, and they're not bullying each other,

862
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: and they're not doing TikTok challenge. They're actually listening to

863
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: the teacher or passing notes with other kids, which is fine.

864
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: They're interacting with other kids. That's actually okay with me.

865
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: Why school's done it already? I feel like it's.

866
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: Because a few parents complain. In the United States, the

867
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: only problem, the only reason they don't do it is

868
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: that American parents are so overprotective, many not all so overprotective,

869
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: and they've gotten so used to being able to text

870
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: their kids throughout the day. So it could be you know, hey, Johnny,

871
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: how did your math test go? And they might even

872
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: text that during the math test, and the kid checks

873
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: his phone during the math test, you know, or oh,

874
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to be late for pickup, like okay, did

875
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: the kid need to know that during English class?

876
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 4: Like why not?

877
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: Just you know? Let when he gets his phone back

878
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: he can see, okay, you'll be late for pickup. And

879
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: in America we have the problem that because we do

880
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: have school shooting. Now they're extremely rare, but they're happening

881
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: more so. Some parents think, oh, if there's a school shooting,

882
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: I want to be able to talk to my child.

883
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: And this is a huge mistake because if there actually

884
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: was a shooter on a school campus, what you want

885
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: is the kids to follow directions and do what they

886
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: were trained to do. You don't want every kid pulling

887
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: out their phone and crying to mom and dad. So

888
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: I've spoken to many principles or heads of school and

889
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: I ask them, why don't you ban the phones and

890
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,959
Speaker 1: they always say the same thing. They'd be right among

891
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: the parents, well, only among some parents. And so if

892
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast and you have kids in school,

893
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: talk to the head of school and say, no, I

894
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: want my kid to be in a phone free school.

895
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: I want my kid to listen to the teacher and

896
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: to interact with other kids. So that's something we can

897
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: all do right away.

898
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: And do you have resources on how to have that

899
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 3: conversation effect?

900
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: Yes, I do so. At Anxious Generation dot com we

901
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: do have some You go to resources, you take action,

902
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: and then there's a tab for parents. There are also

903
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: two organizations in the United States, the Smartphone Free Schools

904
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: dot org and Smartphone Free Schools Movement dot orgs. We

905
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: have two different organizations that are they show you here's

906
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: a sample letter that you can say, here's what you

907
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: can do. In the UK there's Smartphone Free Childhood dot

908
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: co dot UK. So within a number of countries there

909
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: are already movements. But you know what, you can just

910
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: use the resources from the American or the British one

911
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: and you know what, this global audience start your own.

912
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: Come to anterest generation dot com. We have a list

913
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 1: of aligned organizations, mostly in the US and the UK,

914
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: but there are a couple in Canada, there's I think

915
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: one in Germany there's one, and somewhere in Latin America.

916
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: So people are starting, These parents are rising up all

917
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: around the world. Let's join them.

918
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 3: Let's talk about before we dive into spirituality, because I

919
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: was curious to see you at a chap to dedicate

920
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 3: it to that inside the book, talk to me about

921
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 3: the differencing girls in the use of social media versus boys,

922
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,479
Speaker 3: because like you said, and I'm glad we talked about

923
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 3: young boys because often they can get forgott conversation. But

924
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: let's talk a bit about young girls and how social

925
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: media is having a far more adverse effect on their

926
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: mental health.

927
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: First, the evidence of a link is just very clear.

928
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: For girls. With girls, their mental health was very stable

929
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: until twenty twelve, and then in twenty thirteen it starts rising.

930
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: It really is a light switch. For boys, it's not

931
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: so sharp, it's more gradual. Secondly, the correlations for girls

932
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: are much higher. The correlation three time spent on social

933
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: media and mental health problems. So for girls the evidence

934
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: is much clear. Now why the connection. In the book,

935
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: I go into the psychology of motivation, and there are

936
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: two categories of motivation. They're very important to understand. Agency

937
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: and communion. So agency is the desire to be an

938
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: agent to make things happen. You know, when I was

939
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: a kid, it was so exciting to take a BB

940
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: gun and shoot at tin cans because I pull a

941
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: trick and the thing falls over. It's an incredible thrill.

942
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: So that's agency making things happen. Communion is connection, being

943
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: with friends, bonding, sharing story, is sharing emotions. I really

944
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: enjoyed that too. Everyone has both motives on average. On average,

945
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: boys and men have a little bit more on the

946
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: agency side. It matters more to them when you let

947
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: them choose what to do, they're going to go out.

948
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: They're going to build a tower and then knock it over.

949
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: My friends and I we used to build model airplants,

950
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: like World War two fighter jets, and then we'd put

951
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: like rubbing alcohol in them and then we'd light them

952
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: on fire. Like that was really fun to do. So

953
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: that's the agency making things happen. Communion is connection girls.

954
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: If you let kids play, the girls are much more

955
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: likely to sit and talk. They want to connect. And

956
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 1: what are they talking about other girls? They're talking about relationships.

957
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: They're developing their mental map of space. So girls are

958
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: a little more sophisticated about social relationships. They think more

959
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 1: about them, they share emotions more, and that's the strength.

960
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: That's something that's why women excel in certain professions and

961
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: men excel in other professions. But the differences aren't so

962
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: much how good they are. They're what they enjoy doing.

963
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: And so when the companies come along and they say, hey,

964
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: do you want to see what everyone's doing? Do you

965
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: want to see what everyone's saying? Do you want to

966
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: see what they're saying about you? This is like catnip

967
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: for girls. This is this is they really target this

968
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: at girls in securities and they get girls to come on,

969
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: and then there's drama which brings more girls on. Now

970
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: boys are affected by this too, but it's just not

971
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: as alluring. And if you give so when everyone gets

972
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: multiple screens, you know, by twenty ten, twenty eleven, the

973
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: iPad comes out multiplayer video games. Everyone is tempted by screens.

974
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: The boys go rushing into multiplayer video games and porn,

975
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: they do a lot more of that. The girls go

976
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: rushing for Instagram, Pinterest, Tumbler, especially the visual platforms. Okay, so,

977
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: now why is this so bad for girls? And I

978
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: go through I think five reasons in the book. So

979
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: one is just the social comparison. Girls are always judged

980
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 1: more on their looks. I just came across a quote

981
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: from Epictetus I read Stoic writings in the Mornings. Epictetis

982
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: commented an ancient about how when they turn fourteen, girls

983
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: are are judged as sexual partners and they focus, They're

984
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: made to focus too much on their looks. And you know,

985
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: this is a sad thing that these girls are just

986
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 1: becoming focused on their looks. What's happening now? Because girls

987
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: it's constant social comparison with other girls who get praised

988
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: for being not just beautiful but sexy. So, whether they

989
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: know it or not, they're copying porn star type poses,

990
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: porn star type looks. They're being hyper sexualized, massive social comparison,

991
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 1: and on average they don't measure up because if everyone

992
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: on Instagram is actually appears much more beautiful than in

993
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 1: real life, well then everyone else is below average. So

994
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: the social comparison hurts girls more than boys. The nature

995
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: of aggression is such that boys aggression is more physical

996
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: and it's ultimately about who can dominate, who, who can

997
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: beat up who. If it came to that, Girls aggression,

998
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: of course, are just as aggressive, but it's different. Girls

999
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: aggression historically, and a cross cultures and even across species,

1000
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: is more relational. Girls will damage another girl's reputation or relationships,

1001
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: and boy to social media allowed them to do that

1002
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: anonymously and on the weekends too. It used to be

1003
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: the girls were safe from bullying on the weekends, but

1004
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: because they're out of school, but now they're not so.

1005
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: And then there's the sexual predation. You know, there're sexual

1006
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: predators that are going for boys, but if you're a

1007
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: boy on the internet, you're not being constantly sexually propositioned

1008
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: by older men. I mean, it happens, but it's not

1009
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: that common if you're a girl on the internet. We

1010
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 1: just published an article from Antonio Bihar, who was a

1011
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: Facebook whistleblower, and his research within Facebook, within Instagram actually

1012
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: was that thirteen percent of teenagers thirteen to fifteen year

1013
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: old teenagers had gotten some sort of a sexual proposition

1014
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: or someone coming on to them, a stranger coming on

1015
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: to them in the past week. In the past week

1016
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: thirteen percent. So if you're a girl online, it's just

1017
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: you're just living among predators. You're like, you know, the

1018
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: animals we talked about before, in the woods after dark,

1019
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: you're more frightened. So for all these re when kids

1020
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: shifted from a play based childhood to a phone based childhood,

1021
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: it was more devastating for the girls.

1022
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 3: Vianna, we're talking about this yesterday. What's your take on

1023
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 3: He was suggesting this idea of everyone on social media

1024
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 3: being verified. Oh yeah, having to be verified.

1025
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 1: Oh oh my god, of course that has to happen.

1026
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: So think about it. You know, we're in America. We're

1027
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: afraid to let our kids out in part because we

1028
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: think they'll be abducted, There'll be a stranger hanging out

1029
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: by the playground luring them into a car, and that

1030
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: has happened in America. It's very very rare. If there's

1031
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: only about one hundred, one hundred and fifty cases of

1032
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: true kidnapping by a stranger in this country every year,

1033
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: so it's extremely rare, but it does happen. We're very

1034
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: afraid of strangers approaching our children. But guess what. The

1035
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 1: strangers are not at the playground anymore. They've moved to Instagram. Okay,

1036
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: So the idea that we're going to put our kids

1037
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: on platforms where strange men can reach them, flirt with them,

1038
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 1: say that they're a twelve year old boy or fifteen

1039
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: year old boy, change fake photos, including a photo of

1040
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: your daughter in a bathing suit or less. This is

1041
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: complete insanity. I don't think we should be having children

1042
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: interacting with complete strangers. The sextortion rings now it used

1043
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 1: to be just ten or twenty thousand a year reported

1044
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: in the United States. It's way more now. There's a

1045
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: Nigerian gang, the Yahoo Boys, I think it's called. They've

1046
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: industrialized it, so we don't know but you know, hundreds

1047
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: of thousands, millions of boys are getting sextorted now and

1048
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: dozens are known to have committed suicide. It's probably hundreds

1049
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: who've committed suicide. Most we don't know about because you know,

1050
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: they're flirting with what they think is a girl and

1051
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: then this criminal gang tricks them into sending a nude

1052
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: photo and at that point then they say, I have

1053
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: what I need to ruin your life. Send us send

1054
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: me five hundred dollars right now, or I will send

1055
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: this to all of your contacts. This is complete insanity

1056
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: that we let our boys and our girls interact with

1057
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: criminals day and night. So what I would like to

1058
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: see is, first we just have to raise the h

1059
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: so you know, below six they just shouldn't be on

1060
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: it at all. They need to be in contact with

1061
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: each other over sixteen. Okay, this is the nature of

1062
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: the world. People are going to be interacting with strangers.

1063
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: There are some benefits to that. There's networking issues, but

1064
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 1: if you were on a platform like LinkedIn. LinkedIn people

1065
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: use their real names. You don't hear problems about LinkedIn.

1066
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: The problems are especially on Instagram, Snapchat, any platform that

1067
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: has anonymous strangers interacting. So if we had both age verification,

1068
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: which is essential we have to get age verification eventually,

1069
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: and then also identity verification now here. I'm not saying

1070
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: that the government needs to mandate identity verification on all platforms.

1071
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: The world would be a much better place if we

1072
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 1: did that. There would be many fewer threats to democracy.

1073
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 1: If we did that, Russian agents and Chinese agents couldn't

1074
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: like just drop crazy rumors and make us hate each

1075
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: other in America the way they do. So I would

1076
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: prefer that we live in a world where every platform

1077
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: has mandatory I dedentity verification. You could still post with

1078
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 1: a fake name, but in order to open an account

1079
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: you have to show I'm a real person in this

1080
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: country and I'm old enough. But I would be content

1081
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: even if it's not mandated. I would be content if

1082
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: platforms just made this the default. What if meta or

1083
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: let's say not meta. They're not going to do it,

1084
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: But what if there was an alternative to Instagram in

1085
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: which people had to be verified and then they had

1086
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: all kinds of other safety features if they have an

1087
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: immune system built in. Now, how would I feel about

1088
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,919
Speaker 1: letting my sixteen year old daughter on that much better

1089
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 1: than on a platform where she's interacting with criminals from

1090
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: around the world. Have you spoken to Meta, Yes, I've

1091
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: spoken to They don't. Well, they say they're working on it.

1092
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 1: They say they're working on age verification, but they I've

1093
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: seen nothing from them. They have I shouldn't say that

1094
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: they haven't done nothing. They've done a few things. One

1095
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 1: thing is they, at least I think they set the

1096
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: privacy defaults to high for under sixteen. I think it

1097
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: is whereas it used to be. You know, you know

1098
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: you're a nine year old, you lie, you say you're thirteen,

1099
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: and what you say is public. That's completely insane. So

1100
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: they have taken a few steps, but not much. And again,

1101
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: Antonio Behar's testimony to the Senate last year was I

1102
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: showed them what's happening, the sexual solicitation of teens. I

1103
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: told them a simple way to have this reported. They

1104
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: didn't do anything. So I think Meta in particular has

1105
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: shown itself resistant to changes suggested by people within. And

1106
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: that's why we have a couple of Facebook whistleblowers. So

1107
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that market competition will help. I'm hoping that

1108
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: Congress will repeal the mistakes it made in the United States.

1109
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 1: We created this problem for the world. Our companies created

1110
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: this stuff. Our Congress said that we're not allowed to

1111
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: sue them for what they do to our kids. They

1112
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: can show our kids whatever they want and we can't

1113
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: sue them. It's a special law that says we can't

1114
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: sue them. But in other countries they can. And so

1115
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: I'm really hopeful that all around the world people initiate

1116
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: lawsuits when their kids committed suicide because of things that

1117
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: happened on social media. I hope that people will initiate

1118
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: proceedings if they can, if it's clear that it was

1119
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: caused by online activity. And then Congress, the US Congress

1120
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,919
Speaker 1: created this very ridiculous law that the age at which

1121
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: you can sign a contract with a company and give

1122
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 1: away your data without your parents' knowledge, without your parents'

1123
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: consent is thirteen, which is insanely low. It should that

1124
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: that I think needs to be sixteen or eighteen, but

1125
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: it was set to thirteen and nineteen ninety eight with

1126
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: no enforcement. In fact, the way the law is written,

1127
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: as long as Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat, as long

1128
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: as they don't know you're underage, they're fine. But if

1129
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: they ask, and then they find out that you're under thirteen. Well,

1130
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: now they're responsible. So it's very important for them that

1131
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: they not know how old their users are, and we

1132
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: have to change that. We have to get to the

1133
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: point where they have to know. Of course, they do

1134
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: know how old their users are. They know everything about

1135
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: their users, but they don't kick them off. So we

1136
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: have to get to the point where the companies are

1137
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: held responsible for underage use in the physical world. It's like,

1138
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 1: it's so absurd, you know, people say, tell me, well,

1139
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: it's the parents job to keep them off. Okay, imagine

1140
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: a world in which we generally think kids should not

1141
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: be exposed to hardcore sex, to drugs, to violence, and

1142
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: to addiction. So we have age limits on bars, strip clubs, brothels.

1143
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 1: There are you know, the brothels in Nevada and in Europe,

1144
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: and casinos we have age limits on those. What if

1145
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: someone said, you know, it's the parent's job to keep

1146
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: the kids out of that. If they don't want their

1147
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: thirteen year olds in a brothel, they should stop them

1148
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: from going into brothels. Like no, that's not the way

1149
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,720
Speaker 1: it works. Like no, this is a business. This business

1150
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: is hurting kids. This business is responsible for checking IDs,

1151
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: for keeping out children. Yet in the online world, we say, well,

1152
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: you know, what are you going to do? You know,

1153
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: nine year olds are going to be watching beheading videos.

1154
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: They're gonna be watching anal sex, They're gonna be watching

1155
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: the cat in a blender video. Have you heard of

1156
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: this one? Captain a blender one? That's exactly what it

1157
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: sounds like. And this is something that kids are exposed to.

1158
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: It's an actual cat put in a blender and killed.

1159
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1160
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: I have not watched the video because I don't ever

1161
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: want to see it because I'll never unsee it. But

1162
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: I did enough research to know this is not just

1163
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: an Internet rumor. This actually happened, and it was in China.

1164
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: So you know, this is the world that our kids

1165
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: are now inhabiting. And I'm saying no, no, wait, at

1166
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: least till you're sixteen, get part way through puberty before

1167
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: you immersed in this garbage, and that is a great

1168
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: transition to our spiritualities discussion.

1169
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 3: Well, it's an ironic situation where we were glorifying the

1170
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 3: millennials to have been much more productive and effective, but

1171
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 3: a lot of the millennials who created amazing companies of

1172
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,959
Speaker 3: the companies exactly now creating.

1173
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: This challenge, right, that is an irony.

1174
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. But I read something around over ten years ago

1175
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 3: and it talked about how humans defined what was most

1176
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 3: important to a community, a city, or a town based

1177
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 3: on the tallest building that was built. And so previously

1178
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 3: it was the church or the place of worship. A

1179
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 3: few years later that transformed. A few decades later that

1180
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 3: transformed to the government building. Yeah, and then decades later

1181
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 3: that transformed to the corporate offices, and now the tech

1182
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 3: companies or the financial institutions. And so we saw how

1183
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 3: society has shifted its north star. I was curious to

1184
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 3: see why you brought a chapter on spiritual elevation and

1185
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 3: degradation into this conversation, and how is it connected.

1186
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So my first book was called The Happiness Hypothesis,

1187
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: Finding Modern Truth and Ancient Wisdom. What I did in

1188
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: that book it grew out of my teaching psych one

1189
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: oh one introductory Psychology at the University of Virginia. I

1190
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: noticed when I was trying to explain psychology to three

1191
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 1: hundred students, I would quote Shakespeare. You know, there's nothing

1192
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: good or bad, but thinking makes it so well that

1193
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: insight is actually also Marcus Aurelius and Buddha. Buddha says

1194
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: we are what we think with our minds, we make

1195
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: the world. And so I realized that, wow, you know,

1196
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 1: across the millennia, across the continents, people have come to

1197
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: these deep insights about psychology, about happiness, about love, about consciousness.

1198
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: So I collected, I read a lot of ancient wisdom

1199
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: all over the world, and I took out every psychological

1200
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: claim and I organized them and I made it into

1201
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: ten chapters. And you know, so some of them are

1202
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: you know, like, you know, be slower to judge, quicker

1203
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: to forgive. You know, Jesus says, judge, not that se

1204
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,439
Speaker 1: be judged, you know. And I have a whole chapter

1205
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: on how our moral psychology is such that we jump

1206
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: to judgments. We care about our tribe, we don't care

1207
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: about the truth, you know. So so that was my background.

1208
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: I wrote that book on ancient wisdom, and then I

1209
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: wrote The Coddling the American Mind with Greg Lukianov, and

1210
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: we've talked about these three great untruths, the ways that

1211
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: students are being taught, you know, that they're fragive. Ancient

1212
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: wisdom is you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

1213
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: There's quotes from all over the world about that. But

1214
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: kids are being taught no, you're fragile, like you know,

1215
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: if someone says a word or a name, that can

1216
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: be violence against you. So we're making mistakes here. So

1217
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: that's sort of my background's thinking about ancient wisdom and psychology.

1218
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: All right. So then I end up writing this book,

1219
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: The Anxious Generation, and it's July of last year, and

1220
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm way behind deadline, and I'm already really stressed about like,

1221
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm so far past the deadline in order

1222
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: for us to get the book out. But I felt like,

1223
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: you know what, I just read this whole book about kids.

1224
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: I haven't said anything about adults, but we're all feeling it.

1225
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: Most of us at least are feeling something is wrong.

1226
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 4: You know.

1227
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: You know, when I got my first ifelhe it was

1228
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: so amazing. I loved it. But these technologies have become

1229
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: our master They're changing our lives. And I decide, you

1230
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to write a chapter for adults.

1231
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: I'm just going to stick in a chapter what is

1232
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: it that's happening to all of us? And I just

1233
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 1: started making a list. You know, it keeps us indoors,

1234
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: it keeps us distracted. And I suddenly realized, Wow, almost

1235
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: all the ancient insights into how to live the phone

1236
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: based life is the opposite. And once I saw that,

1237
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: I said, oh my god, that's the structure for this chapter.

1238
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: So I opened it with my earlier work on moral elevation.

1239
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: I studied moral emotions. I used to have writings on

1240
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: moral elevation which everyone will recognize when you see a

1241
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: story about you read a story you see you know

1242
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: on the news, or anything about heroism, about loyalty, about devotion.

1243
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 1: You know a dog that you know was so devoted

1244
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 1: to its master and it keeps coming to the train

1245
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: station to greet him. I mean, you know, we're easily

1246
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: moved and we feel it. We feel it in our

1247
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: chest and it's the vagus. Nerve gets activated, our heart

1248
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: rhythms change. There are hormonal effects. There's oxytocin is released

1249
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: women lactate. I showed that experimentally in the study with

1250
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: Jennifer Silvers. So I did all this research on moral elevation,

1251
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 1: and the key to it is the psychology of up

1252
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: and down. Some things make us feel closer to God.

1253
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: Some things make us feel further from God. That's the

1254
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: way cultures talk about it. And it's always a vertical metaphor.

1255
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: God is up, the devil is down. So this is

1256
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: my view. I'm a Jewish atheist myself. I don't I'm

1257
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: not a believer, but I've had some religious experiences. They've

1258
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: had a number of spiritual experiences, so I know these

1259
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: are an important part of human psychology. And once I

1260
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 1: put in that framework that ancient traditions are trying to

1261
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: move us up. They're saying, you know, meditate, you know,

1262
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: Hindu traditions, Buddhist traditions, you know, everything out of India

1263
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: is much more. Get control of your attention, get control

1264
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 1: of your consciousness. Otherwise it just gets drowned in trivia.

1265
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: But no, you know, meditate, live purely, do your work

1266
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: with mastery. Come out like the moon, come out from

1267
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: behind the clouds and shine. That's a loose translation from

1268
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: the Dama Pada. But what does a phone based life do?

1269
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 1: Constant notifications, constant interruptions. My students at NYU, you know,

1270
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: they get two or three hundred notifications a day on

1271
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: average on their phones. Many of them never go ten

1272
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 1: minutes without interruption. So I just made a list, and

1273
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: it was things like spiritual practices involve making something sacred

1274
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: and we all agree this thing is sacred and we

1275
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: worship it. We have sacred days. On the Jewish religion,

1276
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: we have the Shabbat, you know, Sabbath. You're not supposed

1277
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: to use electronics if you're Orthodox. Things are sacred and

1278
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: it's sharing. The sacredness binds us together. That's what every

1279
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: religious community does. But a life online nothing is sacred.

1280
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: There's no there's no sacred time. There's the internet never closes.

1281
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: It's global, there are no holidays, there are no holy days,

1282
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: and the constant demand for you to post about your brand,

1283
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Look at the amazing life I have.

1284
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: So we have a posted after Babel. We were just

1285
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: taking on this really wonderful British writer. A young woman

1286
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: named Freya India gen Z, a writer and she has

1287
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: a post which starts with you see a photo of

1288
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: a young woman posing for a sexy selfie on the

1289
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: train tracks in front of Auschwitz. Here she is, she's

1290
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: on some tour of Auschwitz, the concentration camp. But it's

1291
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: a nice day in Poland and so she poses in

1292
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: a sexy way in front of the gates of hell.

1293
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: And so you know, if everyone's a brand manager all

1294
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 1: the time, nothing is sacred. Oh, and it's all about you,

1295
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: whereas one of the keys to spirituality is it's not

1296
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: all about you. You actually are not that important. It's

1297
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: only when you can transcend yourself, transcend yourself interest, that

1298
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 1: you can open your heart to God, to our higher motives,

1299
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: to love to other people. So you know, you just

1300
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: go through the list. Whatever the ancients urge us to

1301
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: do to achieve spiritual progress, a life lived online, even

1302
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: for us adults, pulls us in the opposite direction.

1303
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 3: I could agree with you more, and I think, what's

1304
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 3: really interesting when I'm hearing that? And that's primarily why

1305
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 3: I started this show. The goal and the intention behind

1306
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 3: this show was how can we avoid gossip? How can

1307
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 3: we avoid the juiciest scoop? How can we avoid the

1308
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 3: lowest hanging fruit and still get as many or more

1309
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 3: views than everyone else on the inter and beautiful because

1310
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 3: my belief system was that if you were able to

1311
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 3: make wisdom go viral, then you could actually raise consciousness.

1312
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 3: And if we keep feeding people junk food and junk content.

1313
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 3: It's actually not that hard to get clicks and views.

1314
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 3: But if you actually just as if you've retrained your habits,

1315
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 3: when you put a healthy meal in front of someone,

1316
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 3: it can taste like the tastiest meal in the world

1317
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 3: because you've retrained. And we've seen that, Like I know

1318
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 3: that the audience that listens and watches us, which is

1319
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 3: all across the world, every age bracket and every demographic,

1320
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 3: is choosing to do something healthier with their time. But

1321
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 3: I wonder, when I'm listening to you, Jonathan, I'm hearing

1322
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 3: the challenge again goes back to the ironic point I made,

1323
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 3: which is, if creators are not informed and trained in

1324
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 3: sacred creation, you end up creating things that have the

1325
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 3: flaws of the creator and.

1326
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: So beautifully put right when I look at what the

1327
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: flaws of the creator's beautiful.

1328
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I've always thought when everyone's like, oh, do

1329
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 3: you think AI will be manipulative of off, I'm like,

1330
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 3: of course, because we're manipulative, Like it's it can't not

1331
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 3: be anything that we've seen, so we'll like AI is

1332
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:14,919
Speaker 3: going to take over the world, and it's like, yes,

1333
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 3: because humans did, Like, it's not it's not that surprising.

1334
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 3: And so when I think of the challenges that I

1335
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 3: see in even TV content and streaming content and how

1336
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 3: dark it's got. And whenever anyone says to me in

1337
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 3: my coaching practice that I have anxiety, the first thing

1338
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 3: I asked them is what did you watch last night?

1339
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 3: And it's there's such a direct correlation between these cliffhanger

1340
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 3: chemicals that are released in everyone's brain in order to

1341
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 3: keep them addicted. And so I go, where does this

1342
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 3: education come in? Because we can take away and I

1343
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 3: agree with you, by the way, I'm fully with you.

1344
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 3: We take away what is currently causing an amplification of insecurity, envy,

1345
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 3: ego and the accelerat it. But the challenge is that

1346
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 3: the seed of that still remains and then gets exercised

1347
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 3: in adulthood.

1348
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: What do we do well? So the first thing is

1349
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: we need to understand what's happening to us. And this

1350
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: is all so new. And my argument is that the

1351
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: world changed. Life changed between twenty ten and twenty fifteen,

1352
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 1: and my book is about how it changed for kids,

1353
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: but it changed for all of us, and we're confused,

1354
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 1: we don't understand it. These things are powerful tools we adults,

1355
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 1: We benefit from them in many ways, but we don't

1356
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: understand what's happening to us. And so my hope is

1357
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: that you know, with my book, with your show, with

1358
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are writing about this, I

1359
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: think people are coming to realize. You know, we were

1360
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 1: confused in the twenty tens. It was so new, and

1361
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: I think we were beginning to get there to see

1362
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: this is a problem, and then COVID hit and we

1363
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 1: all got super confused by COVID and we needed our

1364
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 1: online devices all the time in COVID. But I think

1365
01:07:57,840 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: the reason why things are changing so fast now is

1366
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: because now that we're coming out of COVID, now everyone

1367
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: sees the wreckage. They see it in the new patterns,

1368
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: and their children they see it in the new patterns,

1369
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: and themselves. They're sick of being on zoom calls all

1370
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: the time. They want crave human contact. So let's just

1371
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: see how far we can get just by raising awareness

1372
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 1: of this, as you're doing on your show, as many

1373
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: people are doing. So two things I would urge people

1374
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,759
Speaker 1: to think about are you need to control your own attention.

1375
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: Your tension is the most precious among the most precious

1376
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: resources you have, So once you see your attention as

1377
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: a precious resource. You can stop letting companies just steal

1378
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: it from you. This is perhaps the most effective thing

1379
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:35,839
Speaker 1: I do with my students that at New York University,

1380
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: and they're mostly nineteen years old plus or mine is,

1381
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: and I show them how important attention is. They're business students,

1382
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: they want to have an effect on the world, they

1383
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: want to create something. And I show them if you've

1384
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: given away all your attention to notifications, to TikTok, you

1385
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 1: have no attention left. So you're not going to be

1386
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: able to do anything in this life. Do you want that? No,

1387
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 1: they don't. Well, okay, how about if we turn off

1388
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: almost all your notifications. How about if we take social

1389
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: media off of your phone. So I'm hoping that some

1390
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: of them will quit entirely, But let's just start by

1391
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 1: just don't have it on your phone. You can use

1392
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 1: your laptop at home, whatever, if you need to check,

1393
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: you need to keep up with things. Just by making

1394
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: a few changes, they regain their attention. Now Suddenly they

1395
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 1: have the mental capacity to think, to think big, to

1396
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: do things. So we need a global aware and a

1397
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 1: global recognition that our attention is being drained away as

1398
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: if there was a like a giant mosquito, like a

1399
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 1: giant drill stuck into our brain, sucking out our attention,

1400
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: we got to say stop. We've got to pull the

1401
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:39,600
Speaker 1: needle out. That's the first thing. Another is to recognize

1402
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 1: that we need to be rooted in real communities, with

1403
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: real relationships and face to face and touch, and so

1404
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 1: we need to resist taking the easy way. It's so

1405
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: much easier to set up a zoom meeting than it

1406
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 1: is to get in your car and go to visit someone,

1407
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: and there's many times we need to do that. But

1408
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 1: we need to rehumanize our lives, and that means more

1409
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: time with real people, not feeling so rushed, and being

1410
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: able to be open to people and sharing experiences. So

1411
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 1: that's another There's so many I could list. I'll just

1412
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: list one more area where I want to really raise awareness,

1413
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 1: which is time in nature. So the modern world, we're

1414
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 1: further and further away from nature, and as we get

1415
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: busier and busier, we have no time. And so after

1416
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, when everyone's on social media all the time,

1417
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 1: everyone's on their phones, people are spending less time. In America,

1418
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 1: church attendances has plummeted. Since twenty eleven or so twenty twelve,

1419
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: because no one has time. Everyone's so busy with their

1420
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 1: notifications and they're in their posts. So exposing ourselves to beauty,

1421
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 1: to nature, going out for all walks, go out for

1422
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 1: a walk. I have my students go out for a

1423
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,839
Speaker 1: walk in a park with no phone and no headphones.

1424
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 1: They can't listen to music. They have to go just

1425
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: walk slowly, and the effects are amazing because many of

1426
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: them they've never noticed, they've never noticed how beautiful the

1427
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 1: world is. So we can we can take steps to

1428
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: rehumanize our lives, and.

1429
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 3: How do we respiritualize it? Like how do we going

1430
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 3: back to that chapter, I feel like it's also spiritualizing

1431
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 3: of intention, right if someone's creating something, and I'm assuming

1432
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 3: when you do your research and the books you've written,

1433
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 3: and even the one happiness hypothesis that you started with

1434
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,519
Speaker 3: and the journey that you've gone on, it seems like

1435
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 3: your intention has been to uplift people through your work.

1436
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: Certainly my early work I used to study positive psychology,

1437
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: and the goal there was very explicit. The whole movement

1438
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: started by Martin Seligman in the nineteen nineties. The whole

1439
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 1: movement was psychology is pretty good at taking people from

1440
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 1: negative six up to zero. We have some ways to

1441
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 1: bring you up to zero, but most people are actually

1442
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 1: above zero. Most people are actually doing reasonably well, and

1443
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: they want to go from plus two to plus seven,

1444
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: and psychology had nothing to say to them. So yes,

1445
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: a lot of my early work was about how do

1446
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: we get to plus seven, But especially with the Carling

1447
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,640
Speaker 1: the American mind and now the anxious generation, I'm now

1448
01:11:57,680 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 1: talking about how do we get from negative ten up

1449
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: to up to zero? I mean, that's the first step.

1450
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 1: Just help kids, help the next generation get out of

1451
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: defend mode, out of performance mode, and into a more human,

1452
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:11,440
Speaker 1: real childhood.

1453
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 3: It's almost like your students and the you know, the

1454
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,719
Speaker 3: people that will go on to become entrepreneurs and business leaders.

1455
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 3: It's almost like the challenge still becomes that even if

1456
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:25,600
Speaker 3: people think big and think successfully and think scaled and

1457
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:31,519
Speaker 3: are open minded, it's almost like without the inherent belief

1458
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,200
Speaker 3: that I should create something to help others, without that

1459
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:38,599
Speaker 3: no matter what you create will in some way harm

1460
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 3: or cause difficulty to others, because it wasn't therein not

1461
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 3: saying that you can do something perfectly and not saying

1462
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 3: you could build something without any flaws completely that's no

1463
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 3: one can do that. But this idea that at least

1464
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 3: if that's my intention, if that's at least my north star,

1465
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 3: if that's my compass, and I'm wondering where people are

1466
01:12:59,200 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 3: getting that from.

1467
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: If tool Yeah, I'll take what you said and I'll

1468
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 1: just make it a little bit more business friends, what

1469
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 1: you said seem to be something like, if you intend

1470
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: to make something that's good for people, or you know,

1471
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 1: if you have a positive intention, this is going to

1472
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,599
Speaker 1: help people. And so you know, many people think like, oh,

1473
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, I should go into a nonprofit work, I

1474
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: should go into charity work. You know, a lot of

1475
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: young people are headed towards nonprofit work, and a lot

1476
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 1: of the nonprofits don't do very much, and they're wasting

1477
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 1: their talents there. Since I moved to a business school

1478
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:30,919
Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, I used to teach in the psychology

1479
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: department at University Virginia, but I've been at the Nyustern

1480
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,560
Speaker 1: School of Business since twenty eleven. What I've come to

1481
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 1: see is that is that almost all businesses make the

1482
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 1: world better because they're creating something that people need. And

1483
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 1: I once heard a philosopher say, in an ideal capitalist society,

1484
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,639
Speaker 1: the only way to get rich is by making other

1485
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: people better off. And so you don't have to be

1486
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: all pro socially. You can just say, look, there's a

1487
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 1: need for this kind of ranch. I invented this ranch

1488
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 1: the world's better off people needed, and and then I

1489
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: make money. That's great. You know, if I tell my

1490
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: students of all you do is create goods and services

1491
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: that increase the general welfare of humankind because it's a

1492
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 1: useful product, that's great. You're you're part of progress. But

1493
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 1: now when we look at it that way, now we

1494
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: get a new view of social media, because social media

1495
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:24,759
Speaker 1: is not a normal consumer product. A normal consumer product,

1496
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 1: if it hurts the customers, they'll stop buying it unless

1497
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:33,560
Speaker 1: they're addicted. But with social media, and especially the advertising

1498
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,479
Speaker 1: driven business model at Facebook developed originally, now many of

1499
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: them are copied. The customer is the advertiser, that's who

1500
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 1: pays the money. The consumer is the product. They're the

1501
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 1: victim in a sense of this, and that explains why,

1502
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: especially for TikTok and Instagram. I've seen a couple of

1503
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 1: surveys now and I did with my own class, you say,

1504
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 1: do you use TikTok? So let's do it this way.

1505
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:59,839
Speaker 1: I asked my students, how many of you use Netflix?

1506
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: How many've watched Netflix least once a week? Almost all

1507
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 1: hands go up. How many of you wish Netflix was

1508
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:09,600
Speaker 1: never invented? Nobody? Nobody, Netflix's stories, full length stories. We

1509
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Maybe we watch too much, but we don't

1510
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 1: feel it's ruining our lives. Okay, how many of you

1511
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 1: use TikTok once a week? Most hands go up? How

1512
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 1: many of you wish TikTok was never invented? Most hands

1513
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 1: go up. Same thing for Instagram. So we have this

1514
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: bizarre situation where a couple of big platforms, especially TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

1515
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,679
Speaker 1: a few others, they're sucking up most human attention. Billions

1516
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: and billions of people are spending hours a day. Most

1517
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 1: human attention is being drained away for a product that

1518
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 1: most people wish never existed. So this is I think

1519
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:48,599
Speaker 1: the greatest destruction of human value in human history. These

1520
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,880
Speaker 1: products should not exist, or at least they should not

1521
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 1: exist in their present form, unregulated, not responsible for the

1522
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 1: harm they cause, causing massive harm. The people who use

1523
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 1: them don't overall wish they didn't this. Something is deeply,

1524
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 1: deeply wrong with our society and the nature of these companies,

1525
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 1: which are now some of the biggest richest companies on Earth.

1526
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you could argue that fast food companies and

1527
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 3: young food companies have done the same for years and

1528
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 3: got away with it too.

1529
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 1: Well, that's true, that's true. But at least there people

1530
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 1: are making a decision. Now, it's a part of it

1531
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 1: is addiction, but at least they're you know, like I

1532
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: really enjoy freedoms. I just love FreeDOS. It's just, you know,

1533
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: it's something an M and M is there a few

1534
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 1: consumer products that I love and you know, I know

1535
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: they're bad for me to make a decision about it,

1536
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: and I don't think and now they are. Of course

1537
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 1: they are adding to obesity. But I think social media

1538
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: is so much more pernicious because if I eat FreeDOS,

1539
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:44,560
Speaker 1: that doesn't make anyone else eat FreeDOS. But if I

1540
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 1: get on social media that you know, the more of

1541
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: us are on, the more pressure there is to be

1542
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:50,920
Speaker 1: on and that's especially hitting our kids.

1543
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 3: We've got to break that up absolutely. Jonathan, It's been

1544
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 3: such a joy talking to you and so insightful. I'm

1545
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 3: so glad you gave our audience so many great call

1546
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 3: to actions, and will make sure we put them in

1547
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 3: the caption and the comment sections so people can find

1548
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 3: them easily. We end every episode of On Purpose with

1549
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 3: a fast five or a final five, at least to

1550
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 3: be answered in one word to one sentence, so you

1551
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:14,720
Speaker 3: have something to play. Okay, drink of water.

1552
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,760
Speaker 1: Let me compose myself. This is be difficult, Jonathan and I.

1553
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 3: These are your final five. The first question is what

1554
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 3: is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

1555
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:24,320
Speaker 1: Well, what comes to mind. I don't know if it's

1556
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:26,600
Speaker 1: the best, but it comes right away to mind is

1557
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: what my father said when he dropped me off at college.

1558
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:32,400
Speaker 1: And he said, John, the most important things you learn

1559
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 1: you're not going to learn in the classroom. And it

1560
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:38,040
Speaker 1: was just, you know, it's just advice to go have experience.

1561
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 1: And and that's actually something I tell my students now.

1562
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 1: It's just you take risks, have experiences.

1563
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 3: Beautiful. Question number two, what is the worst advice you

1564
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:46,679
Speaker 3: had to receive?

1565
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 1: The worst advice I ever received? Hard to say, but

1566
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: I think generally a piece of bad advice that young

1567
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 1: people receive is you know, just follow your passions. That's important.

1568
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 1: But I think many young people now think that they

1569
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 1: need to be engaged in work which is not just

1570
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 1: rewarding but socially valuable. Like as though, my first job

1571
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: after college has to have all these features. And what

1572
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 1: I try to tell on them is no, no, you

1573
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,560
Speaker 1: want to end up there. You want, you know, in

1574
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: a decade or two, you want to have work that

1575
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:27,599
Speaker 1: you love. That doesn't mean you have to love every

1576
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 1: moment of it. You know, think long term. Think about

1577
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: the skills you need, think about the toughening you need,

1578
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 1: think about the experiences you need. And it might even

1579
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,599
Speaker 1: be unpleasant for a while, but think long term.

1580
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 3: Great question number three an experience that you never thought

1581
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 3: you'd ever try, but you're glad you did.

1582
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:47,600
Speaker 1: I'm really pro experience. I'm very high in openness to experience,

1583
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 1: and I always kind of wanted to try everything, so,

1584
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 1: you know, whether it was psychedelic drugs or you know,

1585
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:58,479
Speaker 1: travel all over the world. So I actually can't think

1586
01:18:58,479 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 1: of anything.

1587
01:18:58,960 --> 01:18:59,599
Speaker 3: You've done them all.

1588
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 1: I've done it. I mean, I've done a lot of

1589
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 1: different things in my life. I think I saw that yeah, yeah,

1590
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 1: which I've talked about on some podcasts. Now that now

1591
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: that Michael Polland has written a book on it, now

1592
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,720
Speaker 1: that people can talk about psychedelic experience that is you know,

1593
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:13,679
Speaker 1: I mentioned before I've had a number of spiritual experience

1594
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:15,880
Speaker 1: and some of the most intense ones were on psychedelics.

1595
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 3: Question number four, An experience that you're excited to try this.

1596
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:22,519
Speaker 1: Year experience I'm excited to try this year. Well this well,

1597
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 1: actually going to Wimbledon my son.

1598
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 3: It's going to be amazing.

1599
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 1: My son is graduated from high school and I wanted

1600
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: to give him something special, and I said, what's something

1601
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 1: that that you know, what's the experience you want to have?

1602
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 1: And he said Wimbledon. He loves tennis. We go to

1603
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,040
Speaker 1: the US Open in New York, but he's never been

1604
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: to Wimbledon. Yeah, so I was able to scrounge up

1605
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:43,920
Speaker 1: a few tickets and we'll go a couple of days.

1606
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 3: Fantastic. That would be great. Okay, Fifth and final question.

1607
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:48,280
Speaker 3: We asked this to every guest who's ever been on

1608
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 3: the show. If you could create one law that everyone

1609
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:52,320
Speaker 3: had to follow, what would it be.

1610
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking kind of practically here, you know, yeah, please,

1611
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 1: you know, one would be that businesses that impose costs

1612
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:03,160
Speaker 1: on others that are not party to the exchange should

1613
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: have to bear the cost. So basically, get rid of externalities.

1614
01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 1: And social medium poses so many externalities. But if I,

1615
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 1: if I have just like one dart to throw, one

1616
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:14,599
Speaker 1: thing to ask right now, I'm just going to say,

1617
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 1: let's get effective mandatory age verification on the Internet so

1618
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 1: that some sites are actually like porn sites are actually

1619
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 1: not open to children. I think a law like that

1620
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:30,479
Speaker 1: would be that's going to be the big hard one,

1621
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: that would be a real game changer. So again, not

1622
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: very you know, hoping, you know, great if I could

1623
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 1: come up with, you know, some version of Kant's categorical

1624
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 1: imperative here, but no, I'll just go with those are

1625
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 1: the ones I've been thinking about.

1626
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 3: Fantastic everyone, Thank you so much for listening. The book

1627
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,040
Speaker 3: is called The Anxious Generation, How the great rewiring of

1628
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:51,560
Speaker 3: childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. Jonathan h

1629
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us on purpose. I

1630
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 3: really am encouraging everyone who's been listening and watching to

1631
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 3: go ahead to the sites that Jonathan recommends. See if

1632
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 3: we can be a part of the mission support the

1633
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 3: work that Jonathan and his team are doing because I

1634
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 3: couldn't agree with you more. I think this will This

1635
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:09,840
Speaker 3: is what I love about what you've done is often

1636
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,880
Speaker 3: I find a lot of thinkers and thought leaders create

1637
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 3: fear based arguments and without any concrete solutions, and I

1638
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 3: feel that only adds to the fear and anxiety in

1639
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 3: the world. And so I'm very grateful that we have

1640
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 3: very tangible, specific things that we're fighting for here, and

1641
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:27,560
Speaker 3: I really really hope that you'll lean on us to

1642
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 3: help you and help be a part of this with

1643
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 3: you so well.

1644
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,560
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jay. I am wildly optimistic that this is

1645
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:34,800
Speaker 1: a problem we can solve in a year, at least

1646
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:36,679
Speaker 1: get most of the way towards solving. I really appreciate

1647
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:38,799
Speaker 1: your help in getting the word out. I'm so excited

1648
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 1: to reach a global audience because this is this is

1649
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:43,839
Speaker 1: a pan human this is a global problem.

1650
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 3: I'm so thank you Jay, Thank you, Jonathan, thank you.

1651
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my

1652
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 3: conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up on how

1653
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 3: to stay with your partner when they're changing and the

1654
01:21:57,240 --> 01:22:00,600
Speaker 3: four check ins you should be doing in your relationship.

1655
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 3: We also talk about how to deal with relationships when

1656
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 3: they're undistressed. If you're going through something right now with

1657
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 3: your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode

1658
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:10,800
Speaker 3: for you.

1659
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 4: No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new

1660
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 4: technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,

1661
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:21,439
Speaker 4: and we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll

1662
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 4: just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's

1663
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:25,879
Speaker 4: never sleeping.