1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: I find that when I write fiction, I sort of 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: wanted to unhinge. I just sort of will to follow 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: my emotions and thoughts. That may change. But this is 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: how my first novel began. As an exploration of an idea. 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: I thought, what would it be like to be so 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: confident as a girl or a young woman, you feel 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: you could do anything? What is that feeling like? And 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: it manifested itself as two teenagers swimming in the scene 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: off the coast of a Caribbean island. Island. That is 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: Charmaine Wilkerson talking about her novel Black Cake, which is 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: now a television series on Hulu. This pot is really interesting. 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: You guys were in a fast forward past. These commercials 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: will be right back in just a few moments. 14 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: It's the greatest suspersion in the same INCONNECKI wind carry 15 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: chap and Carrie Chappy is the be a championa champion 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: and Carri Chappie and the girl be out a champion 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: and carried Chapion and Carrie Sheppy the greatest inn you. 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: Ward, Hey, everybody, welcome back to a new edition of 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: Naked Today. On the pod, we have Charmaine Wilkerson. She's 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: an award winning writer and now a New York Times 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: best seller. She has a book out. It's called Black Cake. 22 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: It debuted in February of twenty twenty two. It was 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: her very first novel. Prior to that, she wrote short 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: fiction stories. Prior to that, she was a journalist as 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: what I Do, a newspaper journalist writing for the un 26 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: And then prior to that her life, she was a 27 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: woman of the world. She traveled, extremely intelligent. She went 28 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: to college where she was sixteen years old. She went 29 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: to Stamford her graduate degree. She grew up in New York. 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: She is Jamaican. She has a list of things that 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: say check check, check, check check. She fits all the boxes. 32 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: But this particular pod is interesting to me because I've 33 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: always toyed with the idea, and you guys just despair 34 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: with me here. I've always toured with the idea of 35 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: writing a book. I have friends who've written books. I've 36 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: talked about it here on the pod, but I've never 37 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: felt motivated one. I never felt as if I had 38 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: the patience to write an entire novel. And also, what 39 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: am I going to say? Like, why am I going 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: to write a memoir? What am I going to share. 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: That's how most people feel anyway, at least I do. 42 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: But today I've been influenced by our guest Charmaine Wilkerson. 43 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: She said some things that really registered for me. There 44 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: is value to writing, and writing is such a beautiful 45 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: creative process. But we all have a story to tell. 46 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: But here's what really blew me away. She said. She 47 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: was a journalist writing strictly about the facts, but she 48 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: always had a love for fiction. And that's what Black 49 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: Cake is. It's a fictional tell of a brother and 50 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: sister who learned all these secrets about their family that 51 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: they did not know, she said. But with fiction you 52 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: can also explore the truth. In fact, she suggests that 53 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: fiction allows you to get to the truth more so, 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: more so than being a journalist and just telling the 55 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: story with the facts that just blew me away. With fiction, 56 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: you can play with the idea of who these people 57 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: are and where they lived, where they come from, and 58 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: what they experience. With fiction, you can toy with the 59 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: idea of someone living a different life that they wanted 60 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: to live, and if the what ifs, the what ifs, 61 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the what ifs can also explore truth. Now, outside of 62 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: reading this book, I want to encourage you all to 63 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: watch the television series I don't know if you've seen 64 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: it of Black Cake, debuted on Hulu, just concluded this month. 65 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: You can binge it now all eight episodes, and it 66 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: is based on Charmaine Wilkerson's book It's called Again black Cake. 67 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: My producer watched the first fifteen minutes and she was hooked. 68 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: She said she wanted to stop watching and read the book. 69 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 1: That's how good it was. So it's the holiday season 70 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: while you're listening to this podcast and catching up. I 71 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: definitely encourage you to check out Black Cake on Hulu. 72 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: Support Charmain Wilkerson, and you're gonna absolutely enjoy this podcast 73 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: because not only is she dropping gems, her voice is 74 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: so melodic and soft, and she's so full of eloquence 75 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: or elegance, perhaps both. I enjoyed it. I really truly 76 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: enjoyed listening to her talk and tell her story because 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: we all have a story to tell. I hope you 78 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: enjoyed this edition of Naked. 79 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: And Care with Sheepy and in cur with Sheepy. 80 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: Congratulations you are a New York Times bestselling author. You 81 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: started off as a journalist. I love that because that 82 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:17,679 Speaker 1: is what I am. And from my understanding, you always 83 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 1: loved books. Who up around books knew that you should 84 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: be a writer? How does one know that at such 85 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: a young age? When did you fall in love with 86 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: the idea of maybe I will write, I will storytell? Well, 87 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: as long as I can remember, I liked writing stories, 88 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: scribbling stories, making them up. I think you know, all 89 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: of us are storytellers. Our identities are formed by the 90 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: stories that are told to us and the stories we 91 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: tell others. But you know, I used to like to 92 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: write and wrote my little poems, and as I got 93 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: old or I would actually write ideas. Often it was 94 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: just journaling. But what I noticed is as i'd write, 95 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: I'd sort of want to one offen make stuff up. 96 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: So as a journalist, you don't do that. As a journalist, 97 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: you have this wonderful world of listening to people and 98 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: their stories. They're not always great stories, they're not always happy, 99 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: but sometimes they are. When you're learning about people, you're 100 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: learning about your community, You're thinking about the problems of 101 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: the world and the privileges of being in this world. 102 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: So that's a form of storytelling. But I always sense 103 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: that I wanted to sort of make up my own 104 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: tales and follow characters, because I think that sometimes fiction 105 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: allows us to get closer to the truth than what 106 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: we call fact based writing, you know, the journalism, because 107 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: we dare to look straight into the abyss of certain 108 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: human experiences sometimes when we're allowed to invent, when we're 109 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: allowed to explore and follow fictional characters, sometimes in real life, 110 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: ir L, it's difficult to look at the world. That's interesting. 111 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: I love this perspective, and I want to just go 112 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: over that a little bit, because I've never heard so 113 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: writing fiction allows you to get closer to the truth 114 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: as opposed to writing the truth in general. I wouldn't 115 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: say that one excludes the other, but I feel that 116 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: I feel that fiction, you know, storytelling, the fills the books. 117 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: They help us to live certain experiences or ask certain 118 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: tough questions that may be difficult in real life. Well 119 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: perhaps when we're doing more structured communication, journalism is vital, 120 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: but it must be done with certain deadlines, under certain circumstances, 121 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: and really you need to stick to what you're looking 122 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: at at the time. Well, maybe I like to think 123 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: about identity and the power that stories have to shape 124 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: our identities, whether they are told or not. Maybe I 125 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: would like to see a story come a little closer 126 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: to the world that I do see around, a more 127 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: diverse world, a world in which there are more gray areas, 128 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: but perhaps there's still hope for redemption if there are 129 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: a difficulty. You know, fiction allows us to explore all 130 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: these things. I love that you then this is I'm 131 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: going to explore that concept. But from my understanding, and 132 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: while as a journalist, this is what I would this 133 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: is what I would feel and what I'm able to understand, 134 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: we have to stick to the facts. Tell the facts. 135 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: We're not allowed to, you know, color outside the lines. 136 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: Really do you give your opinion? Which we always do though, 137 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: But you you start off as a reporter, if you will, 138 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: in terms of your profession working at the un I believe, 139 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: and you are writing stories about agriculture and and you're 140 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: getting into the weeds of the who, what, when, where, 141 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: how and why? As you're doing this. Are you fulfilled? 142 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: Are you still thinking I'm in a transition or you 143 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: or But when you start off as a reporter, this 144 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: is where you see your career heading. Early on, I 145 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: always wanted to write stories. I just wasn't sure how 146 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: to go about doing that. You know, I went to 147 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: college at a fairly early age. Howl were you If 148 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: you don't know me. I was sixteen when I started college. 149 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: I just turned sixteen, so that was pretty young and 150 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: it was a great experience at a great time. But 151 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, there is development that takes place in the 152 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: mind of a young person at a later stage. So 153 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: I went to graduate in school because I couldn't think 154 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: of what to do with myself. I wanted to write stories, 155 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: but I didn't have the resources to support that, nor 156 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: was I really ready to sort of pursue with that path. 157 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: And journalism was a wonderful way. I mean, I discovered 158 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: that it was a wonderful way to be part of 159 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: a community, to meet people, and I was curious about 160 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: the world. It was a very time consuming way of working, 161 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: but I got to read or like and speak to 162 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: people and listen to their stories. So life takes you 163 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: along a path and you have other interests. And one 164 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: of those other interests remained telling fictional stories. But I 165 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,599 Speaker 1: didn't spend a lot of time doing that. It was 166 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: years later that I sort of thought, I still have 167 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: this need, but maybe I need to take a step 168 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: back from the fact based writing, because that's about structure, 169 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: it's about controlling the narrative. It's about being fast, you know. 170 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: It's a skill that a lot of people don't appreciate, 171 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: you know. And really we have to work within the 172 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: confines because it's about trying to share some information not 173 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: all there, so that people who are listening or reading 174 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: can then pick up the ball and run with that 175 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: and try to find information else where. So it it 176 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: has a it plays a vital role. I worked in 177 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: fairly traditional news, you know. I was in television news 178 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: in Connecticut and in California, and then I moved to 179 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: Italy for personal reasons and really sort of needed to 180 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: make do and continue to work in news, but had 181 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: the good fortune to discover other ways of communicating and 182 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: working within the un was was one of those one 183 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: of those ways. It doesn't feel like it's far fetched 184 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: for you to go from because the worlds are still 185 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: the same. You're still telling stories. But then you do 186 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: this transition and you and you image did you let 187 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: me there? So why not you go? You moved to 188 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: Italy And for my understanding, you are from New York? 189 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: Were you from New York? So I'm from New York. 190 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: Originally I did live in the Caribbean for a bit 191 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: for for a few years in my child good and 192 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: but graduated college and graduate school in the US, worked 193 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: in California, moved to Europe. Okay, what a lovely life. 194 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I I in THEE because I love Europe, 195 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: and I'm like, gosh, is they're away? As you just said, 196 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: the life that you're living. Is there a way for 197 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: me to go live in Paris as a reporter? How? 198 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: But how can I do that? I often ask my agent, 199 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: how can we make that happen? But you you'll move 200 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: to Italy and you're writing short stories. When do your 201 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: short fictional stories? When I believe they have a title 202 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: or a they're they're called a certain type of story. 203 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: What is it called? I know what you're thinking about. 204 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: I have written short stories that are fairly traditional couple, 205 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 1: but I did a lot of flash piction writing. Those 206 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: are extremely short stories at a thousand words or so. Yeah, 207 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: they're defined as being and so what does a thousand 208 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: words mean to someone who doesn't work with words? Just 209 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: a couple of pages sometimes a paragraph floan? Oh well, yeah, 210 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: And I think that may have been the influence of television, 211 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: you know you need to quit, tell a story in 212 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: very little time and move on. And I think that 213 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: that was some of the influence. But I've always been 214 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: fascinated by the way in which you can just sort 215 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: of drop into a story and jump out of it 216 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: and leave the reader with a feeling and it sort 217 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: of has a beginning, middle, and end, but you don't 218 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: begin Once upon a time and then they lived happily 219 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: ever after, but the story's there. Yeah, I have flash fiction. 220 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: That's it. And then do you know, while you're writing 221 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: flash fiction and other another four in other stories that 222 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: are fiction stories, that you've become popular, that this is 223 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: you are wanted, that you are becoming making a name 224 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: for yourself. Are you realizing that as a happening. Oh no, 225 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: not at all. I had an idea for a novel 226 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: and actually wrote an entire thing of probably three hundred pages. 227 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: Never saw the light of day. But it was fun then, 228 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: it was interesting, and I just write little bits as 229 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: I went along, and I always wrote in short scenes, 230 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: and so I discovered a whole community of people who 231 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: were writing entire stories in what I call short scenes, 232 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: like flash fiction. I just did that because I wanted 233 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: to write, and it was possible to put stories online 234 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: and not worry about trying to find a publisher. In 235 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: a big way, it was a way of communicating the world. 236 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: So at a certain point I thought I was working 237 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: on a couple of short stories, and one of them 238 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: started to grow, and suddenly I thought, no, no, this 239 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: is another novel now, so I'll just follow it and 240 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: see where it's taking me. And one day I was 241 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: writing a about this story in the Caribbean and a 242 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: cake came up. It was a black cake, and suddenly 243 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: I realized, uh huh, and this novel is going to 244 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: have the name black Cake in the title, because suddenly 245 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: I see the whole world. I see all of the 246 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: major events, and there's still short scenes, but now it's 247 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: an entire novel. I just sort of fell backwards into that. Wait, wait, 248 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: we so tell me how Black Cake? How you saw 249 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: Black Cake. It became a series of stories, which became 250 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: a best selling novel, which became this television series. Several 251 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: years ago, I made a conscious decision to do a 252 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: little less of the other writing and reading and just 253 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: allow myself to write fiction because it's a different process. 254 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: You know. We talked about communicating, either for corporate communications 255 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: or journalism, being something that really requires quick research, a 256 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: lot of control. You need to think about time, you 257 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: need to think about, you know, for whom you're communicating. 258 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: It's a very specific job. And so I find that 259 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: when I write fiction, I sort of wanted to unhinge. 260 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: I just sort of willed to follow my emotions and thoughts. 261 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: That may change, but this is how my first novel 262 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: began as an exploration of an idea. I thought, what 263 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: would it be like to be so confident as a 264 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: as a girl or a young woman, you felt you 265 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: could do anything? What is that feeling like? And it 266 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: manifested itself as two teenagers swimming in the scene off 267 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: the coast of a Caribbean island, and that was like 268 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: a short story. It was a scene. But then it 269 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: began to grow. And in the meantime I'd written about 270 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: other ideas, people and things they were going through, and 271 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: something they hadn't common was this idea of each one 272 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: of them felt pretty good about themselves, but some of 273 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: them were struggling against the expectations and stereotypes of other people, 274 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: and that sort of set them up for a bit 275 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: of drama. So at a certain point, the two girls 276 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: swimming off the coast of the Caribbean island who feel 277 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: that they can pretty much do anything because they're exceptionally 278 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: strong and they're young and they have dreams. They get 279 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: themselves into trouble. Things start to happen, and they don't 280 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: happen according to what they want. But because they are 281 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: exceptional young people and very strong, they don't quite question 282 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: their ability to face those challenges. They just keep going 283 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: how free and yeah, it feels great, but it's actually 284 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, therein lies the drama of that particular novel. 285 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: Things begin to go very wrong, actually as they do 286 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: in lives, and they react as people do in life. 287 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: You know, this is a universal story ultimately about you know, 288 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: love and friendship and loss and betrayal and second chances 289 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: and perseverant and what you have to do to survive 290 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: and go beyond that to thrive. Hey, y'all, I appreciate 291 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: your patience. We have to take a quick break and 292 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: you know what that means. You can fast forward as mentioned, 293 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: but we're gonna pay some bills and we'll be right 294 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: back in just a few moments. With Charmagne Wilkerson, every 295 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: champion and Cary Champion is to be a champion, a 296 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: champion and carry Chapion and carried chap beata Champion and 297 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: carried Chappion and. 298 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: Carried Chappy afraid is the sports and entertainment Get Naked 299 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: Word good very Champion and Carrie Chappi is to be 300 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: a champion, a champion and Carrie Chappie Neiggery shot a 301 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: champion and carried Chapion and carried chap afraam Get Naked Word. 302 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: Charmaine Wilkerson is back with us. She's a New York 303 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: Times best selling author. Her very first novel is on 304 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: the New York Times best Selling List. And also, if 305 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: you didn't know, Black Cake is now television series on Hulu. 306 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: Sit back, relax and listen to Charmaine tell us more 307 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: about the writing process. Black Cake is the novel. You 308 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: guys can get it anywhere, and you get your books. 309 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: Amazon supports your local bookstore. Charmaine, what is a black cake? 310 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: A black cake is a name that some people in 311 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: the Caribbean give to a traditional Caribbean fruitcake, and the 312 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: cake resembles a British plum pudding, only the fruit that 313 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: go the fruits so well as people often call them. 314 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: The fruits that go into the cake are soaked in 315 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: rotten and sometimes port, and there's a lot of dark 316 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: brown cane sugar. So you see that these ingredients reflect 317 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: the Caribbean a bit more than the cold North. And 318 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: it's a recipe that reflects chain over time, mixing of cultures, 319 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: a certain kind of history that went from colonialism and 320 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: forced labor and monocropping to a modern day society of 321 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: accommodation of cultures. And black cake is a celebratory thing. 322 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: It's you might not like it, but a lot of 323 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: people love it, and it's about Christmas and weddings and 324 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: making it with great tear in giving it to other people. 325 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: But it also symbolizes an entire history of a specific region, 326 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. And how that came about? What is that history? 327 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: Just a brief bribe. So I mentioned the idea that 328 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: it resembles a plum pudding, for example, the English plum pudding. 329 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: How did that recipe using fruits that came from other 330 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: areas end up in a place like the Caribbean being, 331 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, being changed into a recipe that used rum 332 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: and dark brown kane sugar. It came about because you 333 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: have colonialism that brought people to the Caribbean. You have 334 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: agriculture that began to use that began to produce sugarcane, 335 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: and from sugarcane you get sugar and rum. You have 336 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: in the meantime, economic changes and political changes that mean 337 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: you have chapel slavery, You had colonialism, You had certain 338 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: people being forced to labor as enslaved persons. You also 339 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: had indentured servants from other cultures, and all of that 340 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: helped to create a very strong economy based on the 341 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: appeal of sugarcane and what it could produce. And it 342 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: was done it was a very cost effective manner because 343 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: obviously people were producing things that were earning money without 344 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: the compensation of the people who were producing these products. 345 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: Of course, then the world evolves and you get past 346 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: that point to a certain extent, but it leaves the history. 347 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: So you have a whole change in the Caribbean region 348 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: because of everything that happened, and you have a recipe 349 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: that what holds that past, but which has become a 350 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: beloved recipe. It's evolved, it's changed, it's developed its own traditions, 351 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: and it's all significance in the lives of new generation. 352 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: So in this particular novel, the black Cake is both 353 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: a celebration of a current das current day traditions and 354 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: a reference to past, to the past for better or worse. 355 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: And it's also part of the block. There's a case 356 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: in the plot, and so when it popped up, I 357 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: sort of suddenly saw the potential. And again in my imagination, 358 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: a whole story came up and I just started writing 359 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: all the different scenes. I kept writing. It becomes black Cake, guys, 360 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: becomes an in writing Your Times bestseller. I'm so fascinated 361 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 1: by that, only because I have, as I mentioned, as 362 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: a journalist, I have so many friends who attempt or 363 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: have written books and they don't become bestsellers, and it's 364 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: really disappointing for them because they're really super overachievers. It 365 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: sounds to me that you wrote this because you really 366 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: had a beautiful mind and a story to share. When 367 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: that happens, when it ends up on this prestigious list, 368 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: does it add any pressure, does it validate or does 369 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: it make you feel like my job here is dead? Oh? 370 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: All of these different time mentions are very interesting. First, well, 371 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: thank you for using the phrase a beautiful mind with 372 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: a story to tell. That's more or less what you said. 373 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: Everyone has a beautiful mind and everyone has a story 374 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: tell story to tell. You know, we are all storytellers. 375 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: That's how we form our cultures, that's how we build 376 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: our families, that's how we grow our identities the stories 377 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: that are told to us and the stories that we share. 378 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: But of course not everyone sits down to write. It's 379 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: something I need to do, you know, It's something I've 380 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: always needed to do. So there was great joy in 381 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: having the privilege of being able to publish a story 382 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: that I'd written because I'm a reader first and I 383 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: wanted to share that with other readers. So that was wonderful. 384 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: All the rest is, you know, it's structural, it's good luck, 385 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: it's the hard work of people who supported me and 386 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: went to other people and said, take a look at 387 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: this book. Would you consider either first publishing it, would 388 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: you consider maybe buying it. So there's a whole collaborative effort. 389 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm immensely grateful, but I am daily aware that there 390 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: are so many people writing wonderful stories. Not everyone can 391 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: follow the same path. What I found with flash fiction 392 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: is that with the world of the internet, and with 393 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: many small presses out there and independent presses, people do 394 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: have the opportunities to publish stories, but the experience will 395 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: be different from one person to the next. By all means, 396 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: when you say, oh, did you say my job is 397 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: done or that's all I know? Do you feel like 398 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: I did it? You know? Was there a relief? Was 399 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: there a validation if you will? Certainly there was a 400 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: relief in knowing that had an opportunity to publish this 401 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: long body of not body of work, this long piece 402 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: of work or one hundred page novel, and it was 403 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: like an open door because I'm working on another because 404 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: I want to keep doing this, And that's wonderful validation 405 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: only in one sense. You know, you write something and 406 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: you never know will it be published, won't it be 407 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: Statistically it's very difficult. So I have great respect for that, 408 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: and I understood that there were no guarantees. What I 409 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: felt at a certain point was that I would keep 410 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: on writing because I'd redirected my life to put enough 411 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: time into doing the writing. Writing is a creative process. 412 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: The writing itself is of value and it should always 413 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: be seen as being a value. Then you see, if 414 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: you publisher, you don't. And obviously that has a certain 415 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: own I don't want to say pleasure to it, but 416 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: it has a certain value to it as well. But 417 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: it's not the writing. The writing is something else. Then 418 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: what you do with it, you see what happens. Going 419 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: back to your question of the idea of validation, here's 420 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: where I feel publication can be a validating force. It 421 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: is when you try to tell a story that has 422 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: a diverse cast of characters, as does Black Cake, and 423 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: when you sing that, other people pick up on that 424 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: idea and then work very hard with so many other 425 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: creative individuals to take that story to the screen, as 426 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: has happened with this particular novel. There is a validation 427 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: of just one thing, the idea that fiction storytelling, meaning 428 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: making up stories can help us sometimes, as I mentioned before, 429 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:51,479 Speaker 1: to get closer to the truth, because an invented story 430 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: can reflect more of the truth in the world sometimes 431 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: than we are allowed to do when we tell our 432 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: journalistic stories or we write a report on a project. 433 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: It's not that those stories don't have validity, it's that 434 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: they must by nature, by dint of what they're supposed 435 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: to be doing, They're going to be fairly limited they're 436 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: going to be of great value, but you're doing one 437 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: thing novel, a novel, or for example, a collection of stories, 438 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: or even poetry, and certainly a screen series can allow 439 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: person to wander through the world, wander through the community 440 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: of characters in your world, and explore different issues. I'm 441 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: sure there's a central story. Black Cake is about this 442 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: brother and sister from California who find out that their 443 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: Caribbean born mother had a hidden past, and there's a 444 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: lot of drama right there, and what is that going 445 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: to mean for them and their relationship. They're already estranged 446 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: and their emotional hurt at having lost the mother and 447 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: now at having to wonder while if she didn't tell 448 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: us the truth about that, what about our relationship? What 449 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: about us as people? They're all of these questions and 450 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: there's a lot of drama in the past as they 451 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: learn about their mother's story. But ultimately, this is a 452 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: story that could be anyone's story, only it's told with 453 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: a diverse cast. There are black and brown and Asian 454 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: and white people, and there are people of color who 455 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: are central to the story and their experiences as people 456 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: of color have play a role in the story. But 457 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: ultimately they are living experiences that people of different cultures live, 458 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: people of different genders, people from different walks of life. 459 00:29:53,200 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: They are challenges that are existential, emotional, professional and so 460 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: that for me was validation, the joy of seeing that 461 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: people were able to tell this story, and now they're 462 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: telling you in different media. So you have a book, 463 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: you have a series which tells a different version. And 464 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: so that's the only thing that validations the idea that 465 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: for anyone who's telling a story, we're now at a 466 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: threshold in storytelling where I think we're beginning to be 467 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: able to tell universal stories with a cast of characters 468 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: in a way that we weren't allowed to in the past. 469 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: That's what I think diversity in storytelling is. It's not 470 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: about numbers. Who do you have in there? Do you 471 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: have one of these? Do you have a few of those? No, 472 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: it's about can we tell a story that a lot 473 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: of people can appreciate? A story that crosses time, that 474 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: goes to different locations, deals with different emotions and challenges 475 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: that puts certain kinds of people front and center center. 476 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: Very champion and carry champion has to be a championa 477 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 2: champion and carry chappion and carry chat Beata Champion and 478 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: carry Chapby and and carry chavyfraid is entertainment and naked work, 479 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: Erry Champion and carry Chappy is to be a champion 480 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: a champion and Carrie Chaby and Nigga Champion and carry 481 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 2: Chapion and Carrie chabertainment and naked work. 482 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: Do you do either? I didn't download, but I think 483 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: I might just for my own value. Do you did 484 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: you do the audio on this or did someone else 485 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: do the audio? No? The amazing thing is too talented actresses. 486 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: Just two people did the audio. I wasn't one of them, 487 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: and they they managed to capture a number of different characters, 488 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: and also one of them was the narrator. I don't 489 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: know how they did it. It was brilliant. The only 490 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: reason why I ask is because the way to which 491 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: you describe this and tell this story is so beautiful 492 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: and so captivating, and the words that you're using writing 493 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: it of itself is value, especially in a day and 494 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: age when all we do is text and type. Pin 495 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: to paper is beautiful and maybe perhaps seemingly archaic, but 496 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: there is value to that. And then the idea that 497 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: fiction also allows us to tell the truth blows my mind. 498 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: But you're right, why not explore all the things like 499 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: it's absolutely wonderful to listen to that, listen to hear 500 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: you say that, and then we get this beautiful manifestation 501 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: which is black cake. And again you guys go out 502 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: and get the book. But now we have, from my understanding, 503 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: bidding war to turn this book into a series. And 504 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: by now, Shermaine, I am I'm wondering to myself. I 505 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I'd be like popping my collar. 506 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: We're like, I am all that. Thank you. I don't 507 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 1: know if you feel that, but congratulations. I just am 508 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: excited for this. This is beautiful to me. This is 509 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: really beautiful that this fiction is being explored and celebrated, 510 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: and why you may not have done it for that reason. 511 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: When you see your book as a as a series, 512 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: obviously something will be left out. My producer's words were 513 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: I should stop watching and go read the book. Her 514 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: words stuff you watch it? What do you feel as 515 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: you are watching the series? Obviously everything can't be in there. 516 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: It's television, guys, it's television. But how did you feel? 517 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: It's interesting? Because of course I followed a process where 518 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: I didn't just see this series. I was involved, and 519 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: so I saw scripts, and I saw on the episodes 520 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: before they were finalized, and throughout the process. I did 521 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: not expect what was on the screen to be what 522 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: is on the page. But I was excited to see 523 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: that the screenwriters and the actors and other creative individuals 524 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: who were working on building this illusion. This thing that 525 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: goes on the screen, you know that crossed more than 526 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: fifteen years in terms of time. That was filed in 527 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: a number of different locations that allowed us to see 528 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: certain actors aging significantly. I was excited to see that 529 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: this production managed to capture the heart of this story. 530 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: It does not have everything that is in the novel, 531 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: but here's what's fun. You look at the screen and 532 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: you see things that the novel doesn't have because it's 533 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: a different experience. So it's big and bright, and the 534 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: locations are lush, and the actors put their own lives 535 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: into the characters. I like that they're not exactly the 536 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: same because I wrote a book, and I hope that 537 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: people will have the time to read that novel, because 538 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 1: the novel has its own structure and tells the story 539 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: in a different way. But it's it's it's been it's 540 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: been exciting to see that come to life. Why do 541 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: you think there was, for lack of a better word, 542 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: of fight and bidding war, to to over this particular book, 543 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: to turn it, to bring it to the to the 544 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: screen if you will, Well, you know, I think people 545 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: use the term bidding war. You're a communicator, so okay, okay, 546 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: really sexy sounding, you know, it's very sexy terms. It's not. 547 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: But I think what it really means is that a 548 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: number of people liked the idea and they found it 549 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: interesting and they wanted to see if they could offer 550 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: their own interpretation or amplification or extension of the story. 551 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: And so that's very appealing. And I think what it 552 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: means is people say, oh, Gene, we would like to 553 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: do that, and then someone else will say, but we 554 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: would like to do that, and then there are discussions. 555 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: One exciting thing about this series, and perhaps I shouldn't 556 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: go into too much detail, but I will say this, 557 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: is that you had a couple of people who were 558 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: interested independently and they thought, well, why don't we get 559 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: together and do this, And that's what happened. So you 560 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: have Oprah Winfrey's Harper films. You have Maurissa Joe sarahar 561 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: who has been a showrunner on other productions and created 562 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: other shows, and she's working with Capital Entertainment, and you 563 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: have some other executive producers who got together and pulled 564 00:36:54,560 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: their resources and their ideas and started building this I 565 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: am blown away. I absolutely am. I am thrilled for 566 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: everyone to read this book, perhaps listen to it, look 567 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: at all the different ways in which we can experience it, 568 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: maybe all three, and then watch the series on Hulu 569 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: eight episodes. From my understanding, the last concluded this month, 570 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: but it's still there, so bingja way and looking ahead. 571 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: What's next? Shermane Willkerson. Well, I'm currently writing a second 572 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: novel and I hope that'll be ready and about a 573 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: year or so. But it's wonderful. This is one of 574 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: the things that has happened as a result of the 575 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: work on the first novel. I've been offered the privilege 576 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: of working on yet another story. It's another multi generational tale. 577 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: It does go back into the past, but the relationships 578 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: a bit different. It's a different kind of drama. It 579 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: still explores issues of identity, the different unfascinated, especially as 580 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: a woman who identifies as a woman of color who 581 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: comes from a multicultural family. I think a lot about identity, 582 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated by the forces that help us to 583 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: shape our identities that may not be as obvious, you 584 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: know what I mean. So you might say, Okay, I'm 585 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: a journalist, Okay, I'm a woman of color. All right, 586 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm this. But our identities are shaped by stories. They 587 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: are shaped by memories. They are shaped by the importance 588 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: of family heirlooms, of recipes, as in the case of 589 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: black cake. But it's all about how how is your 590 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: idea of self and your view of the world shaped 591 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: by these forces? And then how will they determine your 592 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: reactions when things go awry? 593 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 2: You know? 594 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: How do they either equip you or derail you as 595 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: you try to face life? Yeah, equip board to reil Oh, 596 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: oh gosh, I really want to tell you. This is 597 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: so encouraging, and I love this idea. I am terrified 598 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: of the idea of writing. But everyone has a story, 599 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: and I feel very inspired to start, like with a 600 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: short story, Like I don't have to dive into a novel. 601 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: I can start into I can start with short stories. 602 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: I love this idea and I love that you've been 603 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: able to share this gift in more ways than one. 604 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: I think that's beautiful. And just to sure me, I'm 605 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: going to become the biggest fan and promote you. And 606 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: I am again just thrilled. It makes me happy. It 607 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: just it feels very genuine and authentic and write if 608 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: that makes sense. And all the way from Italy we're 609 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: doing we're doing this podcast. You're in Italy? Can I 610 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: ask you what time it is there? I have no idea, right, 611 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: I actually live in Italy, but this particular week I'm 612 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: in London. I'm right, so I'm GMT right now, which 613 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: means five hours ahead of the East Coast, eight hours 614 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: ahead of the West coast. To get the idea, and 615 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: in Italy it's even later. So it was quite an 616 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: adventure launching my book in the Pandemic online because I 617 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: was doing some calls at two in the morning, and 618 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: that was an adventure. No, it's fine, I listen, Please 619 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: correct me. We did a podcast a couple of weeks 620 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: ago with a gentleman by the name of Bobby Wine 621 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: and he was in London. I feel like we're taking 622 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: this internationally, guys. I'm getting excited about it. Charmie Wilkerson, 623 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining Naked and being as 624 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: honest as you are, so so eloquent, just lovely, and 625 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: I wish you nothing but the best future success. I'm 626 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: sure that's not something you need. You already have that, 627 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: but I wish you nothing but the best. Well, thank 628 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: you so much and keep writing because again you know, 629 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: we all have stories to tell and that's how we 630 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: communicate with one another and another another. Charmaine Wilkerson again 631 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: from London. We're in an international Y'LL podcast in London. 632 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that's where we should go next. We should 633 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: just go do a live show in London with different guests. 634 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: Let's see if we can give black effect to cover that. Meanwhile, 635 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: I hope you really enjoyed this interview with Charmaine Wilkerson. Again, 636 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: please support go out and buy that book that New 637 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller. We can always get more help right, 638 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: and definitely check out the series that is on Hulu. 639 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: It is the holidays and so normally this time of 640 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: year could possibly bring some people sadness because some people 641 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: just don't like to celebrate the holidays, believe it or not. 642 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: But what I do find very interesting and why we 643 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: were able to have a writer, a award winning writer 644 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 1: on the show today is because I find that if 645 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: we can really control our thoughts and find things to 646 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: do during these times, during the holidays where people sometimes 647 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: are very sad, it opens up our world and I 648 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: do believe black K can do that against support Charmage 649 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: Wilkerson by the book, watch the show, it will definitely 650 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: be edifying for you. We will be back next week. 651 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Naked