1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Also media pin Cooin. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 2: Welcome to the monologue this week, except it's a duo logue. 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 2: There's two of us. Better offline. I'm your host ed 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 2: Zetron and today I'm joined by Brian Merchant, the author 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: and writer of the book and newsletter Blood in the Machine. 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Brian, thank you so much for joining me. Ah, thanks 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:32,319 Speaker 1: for having me. Good to be back. 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 2: So today we're talking about AI regulation, the current state 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: of well California's regulatory moves and indeed the very confusing situation. 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: And I think we can. 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: Start with this, actually this AI safety bill that was 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: vetoed and then just got signed. 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: What happened there? 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the long story short is that, you know, 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 3: the people who are actually worried about catastrophic risk, right 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: like the aidomer crowd, the people who think that like 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 3: this is the number one thing to worry about with AI. Uh, 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 3: they all got together last year uh and and wrote 19 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: this bill last year. It was ten forty seven, and 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 3: it was you know, again, assuming that you are worried 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 3: about that kind of thing, like this was like a 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: legitimate stab at trying to keep the companies honest. 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: It did things like mandated. 24 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: Like third party audits of the systems to make sure 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 3: that they weren't you know, they weren't too risky, or 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 3: that they weren't you know, including information about biological weapons 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 3: or whatever, and teaching people how to But the AI 28 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: companies hated it because it would it mandated some sharing 29 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 3: of information, some transparency. It mandated no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: not even a little bit even this, even like the 31 00:01:54,200 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: safe AI companies like anthrop Anthropic, Yeah, yeah, even those 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: guys they were in, they were against. 33 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: So everybody was against it. 34 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: It passed because Scott Wiener, the sponsor, is a fairly 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 3: prominent and powerful legislator. But even though it passed both 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: houses and was sitting on Newsom's desk, the industry Silicon 37 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: Valley got Newsom to veto it. Basically, so Newsom vetoed it, 38 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 3: and then he said, let's try it again next year. 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: So Scott Wiener got together with a bunch of you know, 40 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 3: AI ethics people and some and the. 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 3: And then so this year he comes back with like 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: an even like a watered down version of even that 44 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: to pro again the aim is to prevent catastrophic risk 45 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: and yes, and it had he just signed this bill 46 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: so he as we're recording this, you know, he signed it. 47 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: A few days ago. 48 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 3: Uh, it's it's on the it's on the books, and 49 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 3: it's people are like celebrating this thing for some reason. 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm really scratching my idea. Why you 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: not sell it? Okay, So what's what's wrong with it? Okay, 52 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: here's what the bill actually does. 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: It does four things basically, instead of you know, actually 54 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 3: mandating actual transparency and sharing data with auditors, things that 55 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 3: could actually might you know, maybe be considered a prescription 56 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: if you're worried about things like catastrophic risk. One, the 57 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 3: new the new bill has enforces the tech companies to 58 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: publish privacy protocols on a website. 59 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: Say yeah, yeah. 60 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: Yes, it says, this is what we're doing to ensure 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: and our security practices. Right, this is what we're going 62 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: to do to keep you safe from catastrophic AI. 63 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: Yeah you know, check up policy. 64 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: No no no, And then you need a page. 65 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: You need a page that people can see. No enforcement 66 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 3: that'll stop it. And then you and then if something 67 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: does go wrong and the companies have done something unsafe 68 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: in there with their l ll ms, they need to 69 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: report it to the States. So they it's it's an 70 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: honor system, so they have. 71 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: To tell and what happens if they don't report it unclear? 72 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: And say right stuff unclear? 73 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 3: Uh So the like the one thing that you could 74 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 3: argue are two things. Again like in theory, these are 75 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 3: fine things that it says the other limb, Well, these 76 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 3: are those first two things are they're a limp. I 77 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: think they're a complete joke, and so that. But Part 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 3: three and four is whistleblower protections, which you're supposed to 79 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: already supposed to have. Yeah, right, good to formalize, but yeah, yeah, 80 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 3: it's just like kind of like underlining it with a 81 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: sharpie saying, okay, people should be able to blow the 82 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 3: WHI so if something catastrophic is happening, I have very 83 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 3: little faith this will meaningfully change anything at all. 84 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: I guess there are no like protections actually in that like, 85 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 2: is there anything that specifies. 86 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: There's some language that does raise the threshold again theoretically, 87 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 3: but like you just have to think about how whistleblowers 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: are already treated and how difficult it is for them 89 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: to come forward with all the NDAs and just sort 90 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: of the norms in the industry. So like theoretically, you know, 91 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 3: but again, and it's supposed to be for four workers 92 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: who are so concerned about catastrophic risk, not about you know, 93 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 3: you know, if they see a company doing fraud or whatever. 94 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: This is for a catastrophic risk. 95 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: So really no real protections, no teeth, really, no teeth. 96 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 3: I was reading this thing and I'm not seeing really 97 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: any any enforcement mechanisms other than you know, these companies 98 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: get a slap on the wrist and maybe it's a 99 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 3: little bit slappier if it comes. 100 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: But doesn't sound like there are actual remedies or anything 101 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: like that. 102 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 3: Not really, No, there's a finally, the fourth thing that 103 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: it does again in spirit, this is okay, Like this 104 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 3: is it's a good idea that it's to start like 105 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: a public consort like called cow compute, like a public 106 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 3: a alternative for AI for researchers. It says like, let's 107 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 3: get me, but it's just a committee. It's a committee, yeah, bureaucracy. 108 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: It forms a consortium to discuss the initial. 109 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: Get together that we'll discuss what might happen in the 110 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: future for another mat And I'll tell. 111 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: You brilliant once once again. 112 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 3: So my my read on this will and you'll And 113 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of statements coming out of you know, 114 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 3: otherwise decent sort of orgs saying like this is a 115 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: step for you know, AI safety, and I know it's not. 116 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: It's not really. 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: It doesn't even seem like it addresses AI. It doesn't 118 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 2: seem like it's an attempt to mitigate any homes. 119 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 3: I mean, it is an attempt to you could I 120 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 3: think that. 121 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: Generally, which hums yeah, the most I'm gonna guess. So 122 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: in looking at AI regulation, you have probably not seen 123 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 2: anything that addresses the environmental damage, anything like anything about 124 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: the stealing. 125 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, workplace surveillance, things like this. 126 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: So my read on this right like, so I think again, 127 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: I think Scott Wiener and and the sort of the 128 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 3: group that are interest that are like the AI safety groups, 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: like they believe in this stuff. They really lobbied for this, 130 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 3: like they think that that is important to have something 131 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: better than nothing. But the effect of this mean is 132 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: largely just that now Gavin Newsom gets to say, like 133 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: I signed an AI bill, like I'm doing my due diligence, 134 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: and meanwhile, there are a bunch of other bills that 135 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about that would actually you know, 136 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: do do something that would actually sort of meaningfully rein 137 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: in the AI companies at least a little bit or 138 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: at least point a way towards doing this. 139 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: This is just again. 140 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: Putting your safety policies on a website, like an honor 141 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: system to alert the state if you've done something wrong, 142 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 3: kind of just saying okay. 143 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: We'll be system for the most well funded companies again. 144 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: And here's the number one way that you can tell 145 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: that this is entirely bullshit, and that is that Anthropic 146 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 3: is in favor of it. 147 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: They came out and said like this is good. Number two. 148 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: Meta was like this is sensible, and they didn't support 149 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: the bill, but they're not opposed to it. Even Open 150 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: AI was like, well, they I think you could tell. 151 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: Any kind of prescriction we don't like that, but even. 152 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 3: If it's the flimsiest one, I feel like you could 153 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 3: see them like the gears. 154 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: Turning in the corporate machine. 155 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: And we were like, are we like, basically this bill 156 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 3: requires us to like have an intern like write some 157 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: copy or even just have like chat GPT generator. 158 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: That's the thing. Put it on a website. 159 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: They don't even have a thing in this saying you 160 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: can't use to write am I would have probably done 161 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: that myself personally. 162 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so number one, it does next to nothing in 163 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 3: my eye, and I just can't. I mean, I know 164 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: all these like advocacy groups and people who are like 165 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 3: trying to get some good laws on the big They're 166 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: hungry for a win, so they want to say like, yeah, 167 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: we did something, But this is I think to me, 168 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: this is worse than nothing because it's gonna let Gavin 169 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 3: off the hook on like a handful of bills that 170 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: might actually do something, and. 171 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: It will give the faith the fake view that the 172 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: AI companies are regulated so they were able to continue 173 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 2: doing all the actual harmful stuff. Are there any regulations 174 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: you've seen that actually approach the actual pomps anyway? 175 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: Oh? 176 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: Sorry, suggested regulations or pills or anything like that. 177 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, there's a couple. So, and I've been talking 178 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: to I've talked to I've talked to lawmakers over this process. 179 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 3: I've talked to some of the sponsors of the bills, 180 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: and I've talked to labor groups. And the one sort 181 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: of through line that runs through all of this is 182 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 3: that Silicon Valley and its lobbyists have just been out 183 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: and forced trying to crush even the most sort of 184 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 3: basic common sense regulation, and so laws or proposals that 185 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 3: started out with some teeth have had most of them 186 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: knocked out or have been delayed until next session. So 187 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: we're left with a few things. We're left with a 188 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 3: few things that you know, I think more than anything, 189 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: they're just like bell Weathers as to whether or not 190 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 3: it's even possible to like get to get anything done. Because, 191 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 3: as your listeners will know, right like, the whole AI 192 00:10:55,280 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 3: like for enterprise isn't working out so well right now, 193 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 3: no one buys it, no one, No one's buying it, 194 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 3: no one wants it. So they're gonna have to make 195 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 3: some changes in the in the next couple of years. 196 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: And the way they're gonna my my guess, is that 197 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 3: they're going to try to find ways to sell people 198 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 3: on its other capacities, things like it's a it's a 199 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: surveillance tool. 200 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: It'll do you know, it'll surveillance tool. 201 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 2: It's like, it's not that's what's funny about this, because 202 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: it's like the actual harms to mitigate would be training 203 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: and environmental and energy, Yeah, but must go up. So 204 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, well, we'll regulate because the surveillance thing. 205 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: I get that, Like there is already a surveillance but 206 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: it's like, oh, what if they put all the date 207 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: or in a large language model. 208 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, would the large language model do anything with it? 209 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 2: Like what do you like, We've already got them. But wait, 210 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: so what are the bills to be seen? 211 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so you know there's there's one, I think the 212 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 3: one that's still out there at the time of recording. 213 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 3: Who knows it could have been vetoed or signed by 214 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: the time that this goes to air. 215 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: But there's one. 216 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: There's there's one bill that Silicon Valley is genuinely upset 217 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 3: about and afraid of. And it's a bill that like 218 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 3: sets the very lowest bar and it says, essentially, if 219 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 3: you are going to make a chatbot and market it 220 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 3: to children, then you have to be able to demonstrate 221 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 3: that this chatbot isn't going to make them harm themselves. 222 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: Ah. So they hate that. 223 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 3: They are and they're in you know, they have there's 224 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: this Silicon Valley lobbying group that's kind of famous in 225 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 3: California especially, called the Chamber of Progress. 226 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's. 227 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 3: Like immediate reflexive immediately, I know, gag reflex immediately. So 228 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: they they've got this guy who's out there writing op 229 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: eds in like the San Diego Tribune and doing press 230 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: for going Oh it's over broad, And let me tell 231 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: like their actual line on this is, if this bill passes, 232 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: then you're gonna be taking away AI that could educate children. 233 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: You're gonna be taking away AI from children, and they're 234 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: not gonna have the same advantages that children with AI have. 235 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: And they're running this like this big Facebook campaign. They've 236 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 3: hired lobbyists specifically to take They often do this. 237 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: It's fucking evil people. They are evil people. 238 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: I mean this, I mean, for me, this was like, 239 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 3: you know, this was like it's past the threshold once 240 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 3: the Adam Raine stuff broke and and open AI is uh, 241 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: you know, trying to hem in Hawe about you know, oh, 242 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 3: well you know we're going to do this or that 243 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 3: it's we passed it, we passed the rubicon, right There's 244 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: they've got chatbots that are that are telling children to 245 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 3: you know, hide the news so that their parents don't 246 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 3: see it. 247 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: And like it's again. 248 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 3: They make it seem like, oh, AI is this frontier 249 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 3: We're gonna work something. It's a it's a US product, 250 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: it's a software product. 251 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, go ahead. 252 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: I have a theory, Yeah theory. Okay, So I don't 253 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: think they can control these models. I don't mean because 254 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: they're intelligent. I don't mean because they're autonomous. I mean 255 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: I don't think you can actually prompt a large language 256 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: buddle to categorically stop it doing something. 257 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think then you should not be selling 258 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: that that children. Yeah, yeah, one degree. I'm just saying that. Yeah, 259 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you're capable, because I think 260 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: you're right. 261 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: But my theory is based on costs because of Claude 262 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: code that they can't that they can't do cost control. 263 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: If they can't do cost control, it means the model 264 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: won't listen. Yeah, and I reckon that they can't be 265 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: like never talk about killing yourself. Yeah, Like they just 266 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: can't do that. 267 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, or it would require like going back through you know, 268 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: like there's been I've seen a lot of sort of 269 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: speculation that the reason that it's talking like this is 270 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 3: that it's like a lot of the language is coming 271 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: from like pro suicide forums in the bowels of the internet. 272 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: So like they don't want to go through and take 273 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: the time discussions sort that app yeah, or discussions of suicide. 274 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: Probably articles as well that say, have to deal with 275 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: someone who's doing just horrible stuff. Yeah, really fucking pep. 276 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: And this is this a California bill. 277 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a California bill. Yeah, and it's and it 278 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: is Yeah. So you know, if you're on Facebook there 279 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: so that there's a there's the front group spun up 280 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: by by some of the VC firms like A sixteen 281 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 3: Z and you know, Andresen and these guys and and 282 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: Y Combinator. Then there's a front group called the American 283 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 3: Innovators Network, and they're running all these ads arguing that 284 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: this bill, again whose sole purpose is to ban chatbots 285 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 3: from being marketed to children, that that also try to 286 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: convince them to harm themselves. 287 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: Not even banning them from being marketing marketed to children. 288 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: Just you have to them being harmful, you have to. 289 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the way that it's free, which is what 290 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: they're all hung up on is it's just like you 291 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: have to be able to demonstrate that if you sell 292 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: this to children, it. 293 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: Will not tell them to harm themselves. And and I think. 294 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: You've one of the more reasonable requests you could ever 295 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: ask of a company. 296 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 3: Most I cannot think of something that is more. But 297 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: they're saying, oh no, it's too broad. 298 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: Everything else will get caught up in this. 299 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: You can't have a chatbot because but and then it's 300 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: always like but why why couldn't we have this chatbot 301 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: in the classom? Yeah, whoa because it might tell somebody 302 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: to kill themselves, like that's. 303 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: Why, yeah, they don't. This is again we should these. 304 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: People should be should try and interview them, like, because 305 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: it's the question would be say that you agreed with 306 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: this bill, you disagree, say you agree with it? 307 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: How would you stop this? Yeah? Just how would you 308 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: stop it? Can you stop them? Is that what you're 309 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: upset is? 310 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 2: The is the reason you're mad because you literally can't 311 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: stop this. Yeah, because that's the thing. They have mahar 312 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: around any kind of protections, yeah, anything, anything, and now 313 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: and I wonder if it's because they they can't and 314 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: they want to be like, oh it's too powerful, No, 315 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: it's too shit. 316 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because it sucks. It's not because it's it's 317 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: not because powerful. 318 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: It's because you built something shitty and hard to control. 319 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: Exactly. It's shitty LoVa. 320 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 2: LoVa is hot that and can burn through most things. 321 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: That doesn't make it intelligent your inability to not drink 322 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: lava just like fucking. 323 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: Fucking I mean, it's a combination of both those things. 324 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 3: Like like it's either oh, this would be really expensive to. 325 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: Fix or oh, like I don't know if we can't 326 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: I reckon. 327 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 2: What they would have to do is they would have 328 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: to just neuter it. 329 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: They would just have to They would have to just make. 330 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 2: It so that anything that gets even close to that 331 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: conversation would have to be just like shut down to 332 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: the point that you can't even talk about superhero stuff. 333 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 2: They would probably just limit it to the point of nothingness. 334 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, which like yeah, I mean if that's what they 335 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 3: I mean, we're again we're talking about like children here, 336 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 3: so like yes, that seems though, like if that's what 337 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 3: they have to do, then that, in my anyways, is 338 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 3: something that. 339 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: They should do. 340 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 3: But again it's wild because like they don't usually hire 341 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 3: lobbyists to oppose state level bills. But the sponsor here, 342 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: Rebecca Bauer Khan, it's it's the lead act, is what 343 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 3: it's called. It's AB ten sixty four. She's just like 344 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like this. They're like having lobbyists 345 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 3: come and knock on my door and like, you know, 346 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: yelling at me about this, and they're just like it's 347 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 3: a full court press. And we could talk a little 348 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: bit after this about like how this is sort of 349 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 3: like part of a broader movement where they're you know, 350 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: Silicon Valley is sending its lobbyists out all across the country, 351 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: but especially so typical to do on this level. I mean, 352 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 3: Silicon Valley hasn't wanted regulation on anything for a long time, 353 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 3: but this, the level of concentrated effort and sort of 354 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 3: the campaigning is new, right, Like, I've been a tech 355 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 3: journalist for fifteen years and I've never seen anything like 356 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 3: we saw over the summer where they were Silicon Valley 357 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: tried to lobby for a ban on all state level 358 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 3: AI lawmaking. They really got a whole sort of united 359 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 3: front together, they got stakeholders from the different fail though 360 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 3: they did fail, but they failed by basically one vote, 361 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 3: and they failed because of a Republican in Tennessee who 362 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: represents Nashville. Yeah, and she was like, wait a minute, 363 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: we have a lot in the books that protects our 364 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: country music industry from being slopified and WITHO overturn it, 365 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 3: and they were like, well yeah, but you know yeah yeah, 366 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: and then so she kind of came out against it 367 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 3: and that if it wasn't for that, it would have 368 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: that well, it would have passed. 369 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: And that is bonkers. It's bonkers. 370 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 2: That's while the country music saved us. 371 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, country music and Nashville's like, no AI music slop law. 372 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 3: And they're they're gonna try again, though, They're gonna try again. 373 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 3: Ted Yeah, Ted Cruz keeps talking about it. He's he's 374 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: he's interested in giving it another go. So it'll be 375 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 3: coming down the pike. But to be clear, like, no, 376 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 3: this has never happened. If you've never seen somebody like say, okay, 377 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: we're gonna ban lawmaking around search. No search engines can 378 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 3: have any laws made around them or social networks. 379 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: This is its own thing, This is AI thing. Yeah, 380 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: they just can't be lows. 381 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 3: No, it's totally anti democratic, it's totally absurd and all 382 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: I mean, it tells you all you need to know 383 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: really that the Silicon Valley interests are willing to push 384 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 3: all their chips in and team up with with the 385 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 3: Trump administration and its allies to try to get this done. 386 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, fucking use no, he's I mean, 387 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 3: Newsome has has vetoed a ton of solid AI bill. 388 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 3: I mean last year he knew some vetoed a good 389 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 3: bill that I think was good because. 390 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: It was it was, it was on. So I don't 391 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: know if you if you caught this. 392 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 3: But last year the teamsters and some pro labor groups 393 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 3: UH fought for a bill and got a pass bipartisan 394 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: past the House that says, okay, if you're going to 395 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 3: use autonomous or AI technology to run a truck that's 396 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: like over a certain amount of weight, then there should 397 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: be a human safety operator making sure it's not hitting people, 398 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: not running into people. It passed both houses. News new 399 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: some vetos it, and two weeks later there's the there's 400 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: the autonomous car that drags the pedestrian across San Francisco. 401 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: If that timing had been different, yeah, they. 402 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 2: Thank you, Gavin, very good Gavin, And. 403 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: It wouldn't have necessarily applied. 404 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 3: But I think the optics would have been different, so 405 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 3: he wouldn't have been able to pay anyways. Newsome is 406 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 3: is perfectly happy to veto a lot of this stuff. 407 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 3: Ex The difference is is his constituents here in California 408 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 3: they care about this. And in the case of that 409 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: of the Lead Act that we were talking about, that 410 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 3: one of the reasons that it stands any chance at 411 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 3: all is that his his wife is like a vocal 412 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 3: supporter of the Lead Act and she's been on some 413 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 3: stages saying like, I think we should protect our children 414 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: from AI slop and and and so it's gonna he's 415 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 3: gonna it's gonna be like his wife on one hand. 416 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: And all of Silicon Valley's lobbying for us on the other. 417 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: You some verses, news, some Jesus Christ. Yeah, so it's 418 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: with So here's something that why does no one have 419 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: a push any bills that actually I realized that even 420 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: doomed ones. Why did it seems that there's a lack 421 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: of any bills that are like actually aimed at the 422 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: technology written by people who have used it, for example? Yeah, 423 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: why does that never happen? 424 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 3: I mean, we still have this mentality ingrained in this 425 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 3: in this country, especially in the political class that just 426 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 3: doesn't really have a lot of hands on, you know, 427 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 3: experience with the tech. It's changing a little bit, but 428 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: I think It's just it's ideology. It's just like, oh, well, 429 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 3: like we don't want to stifle innovation. We don't, you know, 430 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 3: if they need to build you know, a million data 431 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: centers and you know in circle the nation and in 432 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 3: in in stargate out posts, then then I guess that's 433 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: then we'll defer to you. 434 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: It's always been this way. 435 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 3: It's always been deferring to industry and then uh and 436 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 3: then reacting right and then saying like, oh, oh well 437 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 3: that was a bridge too far, and then they try 438 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 3: to you know, get some so like there are laws 439 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 3: on the book now like ten years after social media 440 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 3: sort of you know, was on the scene, don't. They 441 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 3: don't even direct the problem though, Yeah, well, I mean 442 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 3: the biggest problem. 443 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: Yeah no, I mean there's been some anti trust effort. 444 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: That's the closest you've probably gotten to some decent efforts 445 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: at at at you know, reining in the giants. 446 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: Close us up. What would you what would be the 447 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: regulation that you. 448 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 2: Would want to push through other than the stopping the 449 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: kids getting the AI suicide l M, that one seems 450 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: pretty good. 451 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: But a dream a dream bill for you? 452 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: What might it look like? What are the things that 453 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: you actually think need to be strict. 454 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, like I we we have not even 455 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 3: touched the We barely got to the tip of the 456 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: iceberg here about what needs to happen, because I mean, 457 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 3: the things that that you know that I worry about 458 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: are the same ones that you cited, uh, which is 459 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: with the environmental impacts of just but that's almost a 460 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 3: separate issue, right, And in fact, all that has happened 461 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 3: on the legislative and policy front is that the A 462 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 3: companies have convinced they did this to Biden, by the way, 463 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 3: it wasn't Trump. They convinced them to lacks environmental regulations 464 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 3: so they could just build more data centers without without 465 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 3: being subject to as many fines. 466 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: So you have to get serious. 467 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: I saw some regulation around They have to report that 468 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: power draw somewhere. Yeah, like they have to talk about 469 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: how much energy they using? 470 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: Wow wow right yeah, And I you know, I do 471 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: think that. 472 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: I mean, and most of these bills are written in 473 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: a way that doesn't just apply to AI. There's there 474 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 3: was a decent there's a I mean again it's everything's 475 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 3: just been battered to bits by the lobbying machine. But 476 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 3: there is a bill that he did sign that sort 477 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 3: of semi restores gig workers' rights to unionize. 478 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: That's it. 479 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 3: It's it's good, but there's a big asterisk to it. 480 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: It's a little wonkey, so we won't get into it. 481 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: But it's a good a good step. We need gig 482 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: workers to be able to organize right now. They can't 483 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 3: in most of the states, so that I do think, 484 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 3: you know, workplace protections and detecting against uh automated hiring 485 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 3: and firing. 486 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: Shit and wage depressure, the no robot bost again. 487 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 3: It's like even the sponsor of the bill, UH, Lorena Gonzalez, 488 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 3: who's with the California Labor Fed, I talked to her 489 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: and she's like, look, this is what we could get 490 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: through nothing else that we had in there that like 491 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 3: really seriously banned discrimination. And it's really not like it's 492 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 3: not about the tools again, it's about allowing bosses to 493 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: use this as an accountability sink or to offload saying O, yeah, 494 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 3: I think he's. 495 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: Kind of where you need to regulate sometimes, Yeah, exact, 496 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 2: especially when you don't going to regulate the fucking technology. 497 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 498 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: So, I mean there's a there's a million things that 499 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 3: need that need to happen. I mean, I think antitrust 500 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 3: absolutely needs to happen. But I you know, I would, 501 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 3: I would get way more radical than than anything that 502 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: that that's being even even talked about right now, because 503 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 3: right now it's it's just profoundly anti democratic where we're 504 00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: at right now, Silicon Valley is. 505 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 1: Just they're just you know, better than anybody. They're just hoarding. 506 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 2: Again, this is the one thing, and maybe this is 507 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 2: a dumb ass's opinion, but why do you have to 508 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: fucking listen to lobbyists? You? 509 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: I mean, you do not. Otherwise you do not. 510 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I realized, I'm not a big politics noer, 511 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: but it feels like you could just not talk to them. 512 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: I guess that sometimes they contribute to your political campaigns, 513 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: but just just don't do it. 514 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, this is how I end to politics. 515 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 2: I'm just like, well, if you didn't listen to just 516 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: he just didn't pick up. 517 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: Why not? I don't want to talk to you. 518 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: Sound really annoying. You keep I want to run this bill. 519 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: You keep texting and calling me saying I should, and 520 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: that's going to block you politicians. 521 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: Listen, Let's get you a soapbox. I'll vote for exit 522 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: trount all right, Brian, where can people find you? 523 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: I am blood in theemachine dot com uh and and 524 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 3: Brian Merchant and most social media platforms. 525 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: Lovely thank you for joining me. This has of course 526 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: been your Better Offline jewelog for the week. 527 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: Back next week with an interview with Stephen Burke from 528 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: Games Next Us. 529 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening, everyone, Thank you for listening to 530 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: Better Offline. 531 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 2: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 532 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 2: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 533 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, m A T 534 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: T O S O W s ki dot com. You 535 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com 536 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast 537 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend 538 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: you go to chat dot Where's youreed dot at to 539 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline 540 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 2: to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening. 541 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 542 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 543 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: dot com or check us out out on the iHeartRadio app. 544 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.