1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Hello, John Mulner. Hi Katie, So this is very exciting listeners. No, 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: I am not cheating on Brian with my husband John, 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: but Brian is on a family vacation and we thought 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: it might be fun for me, for John, and hopefully 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: for you to have my husband fill in because we 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: obviously talk all the time about a lot of different issues, 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: and this guest was actually John's idea. We had a 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: conversation of fascinating conversation I thought I thought I was 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: I thought I was fascinating, Thank you, But with Carrie Sulkowitz, 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: who is a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst, and it was 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: your idea to have him on the podcast. Why Mulner, 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: why did you think that was a good idea? Well, 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: we were having lunch and Carrie was sharing his views 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: of President Trump and some of his behaviors which so 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: many people are talking about trying to understand, and he 16 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: had a very clinical, analytical assessment of some of the 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: things that we're seeing. And I asked him if he'd 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: be willing to come on and talk to you about it. Now. 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: I didn't know you were gonna invite me to sit in. 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing here. But let's get 21 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: Brian back quickly. But it was really interesting to hear him, 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: and I was somewhat surprised when he said he would 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: come on. Yeah. Well, I was pleasantly surprised because a 24 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: lot of mental health professionals don't think it's appropriate to 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: opine about the pathology of public officials, certainly the president 26 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: of the United States. But Carry was willing to do that. 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: And willing I think he thinks it's really critically important 28 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: to do. One thing to note, though Kerry is not 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: your average psychiatrists or psychoanalyst. He actually stopped his clinical 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: practice some time ago. He now advises CEOs and senior 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: leaders on leadership and management. So here he is Dr 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: Carry Sulkowitz. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. 33 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for inviting me. So I should 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: point out, John, you and Carrie know each other pretty 35 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: well from when you were a partner at Brown Brothers Harriman, 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: that's true here in New York. Tell me a little 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: bit about your relationship. Well, Carrie was hired as an 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: executive coach for Brown Brothers and UH and I had 39 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: a chance to work with him, and he helped me 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: think about my career and my relationship with other partners 41 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: at the firm and how to help grow the business 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: that I was involved in, and then from that a 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: personal friendship grew. So you're really an executive coach, would 44 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:46,279 Speaker 1: you say, now, Carrie, or an executive what? Actually, notwithstanding 45 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: what John just said, which I appreciate, I actually don't 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: like that term executive coach, even though I'm sure I've 47 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: been called far worse things. Katie. I'm I'm a psychiatrist 48 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: and a psychoanalyst who about twenty two years or so ago, 49 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: stumbled into the business world and started today consultancy, advising 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: CEOs and boards and management teams, really trying to apply 51 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: a clinical perspective to working with leaders and helping them 52 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: on the various challenges they face every day. Well, we 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: have so much to talk about, Carry, I'm really and 54 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: me I call you Carry, Dr k Um. So much 55 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: to talk about about leadership, about mental health, mental fitness 56 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to our current president. But first I 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about you. How did 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: you get into this field in the first place. I 59 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: thought it was fascinating that your parents were both Holocaust survivors. 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: Can you tell me specifically sort of how your interactions 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: with your parents and trying to figure out their pathology 62 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: and their past influenced you going into psychiatry. Yeah, it did. Um. 63 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: They were wonderful people. They're both gone now, unfortunately, but 64 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: it was clear that they were both quite damaged by 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: the experience of the world, though it left them with 66 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: certain kinds of strength and resiliency as well. Um, And 67 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: my fascination in part was, you know, how did leaders 68 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: of countries get large groups of people to do good things, 69 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: and especially how did to get them to do bad things, 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: including the kinds of things that had happened to my 71 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: parents and many other people who were um incarcerated in 72 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: the Holocaust. So that was rattling around in my head 73 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: as a kid, although I didn't know what to do 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: with it. It certainly didn't feel like something that might 75 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: become a career. And I also had a bit of 76 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: my son the Jewish doctor syndrome, and so knew that 77 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: I had to go to medical school uh and did. 78 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: But as a psychiatrist I went into private practice and 79 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: loved some aspects of it. I liked helping people still 80 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: do like the intellectual underpinnings of it, but was a 81 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: little too restless to be sitting in an office all 82 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: day seeing one patient after another. And then actually met 83 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: a my first entrepreneur at a cocktail party, um about 84 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: twenty two years ago. And it turns out that leaders 85 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: need somebody to talk to, and he probably had a 86 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: couple of extra glasses of wine that made it a 87 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: little easier, and he opened up to me about some 88 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: of the challenges he was having being a CEO of 89 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: a startup. And I thought it was just an interesting 90 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: cocktail party conversation until he asked me if I would 91 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: be interested in advising him in his company. That was 92 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: really the beginning of my new career. How does advising 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: CEOs differ from advising patients in a clinical setting in 94 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: a number of ways, Katie. First of all, I want 95 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: to make it clear that when I'm advising a CEO, 96 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: they're not my patient. Um My, My work with him 97 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: is undoubtedly informed by my background as a clinician. Uh. 98 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: It kind of comes in handy sometimes to understand something 99 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: about human behavior and various ways people have of dealing 100 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: with complicated feelings. But I'm not treating anybody, um. I 101 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: would also say an important distinction is that when I'm 102 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: working with the CEO. The CEO is part of the client, 103 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: but the client is always the organization itself, and so 104 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: it allows me an access to the CEO of the 105 00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: management team, the board, a more systemic immersion in the life, 106 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: the business, the culture of the organization. And when you're 107 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: dealing with CEOs who have all that authority and power 108 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: within an organization, how does that sort of authority reflect 109 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: itself in the personality of the of the leaders of organizations. 110 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: The CEO, as I would say, are people first and foremost, 111 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: but there are people who are affected by the roles 112 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: that they're in, and those roles change them in some 113 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: profound ways. Um CEOs are isolated. They are inherently lonely. 114 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: The nature of power is such that it inhibits the 115 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: upward flow of information to them, and so they often 116 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: don't really hear what they need to hear, what's going 117 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: on down below. And they also don't have anybody to 118 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: really confide in inside their organization for the same reason, 119 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: so they need somebody to talk to their lonely. They're isolated, 120 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: their anxious, They're dealing with complexity, ambiguity every day, so 121 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: they're constantly faced with new challenges that they don't know 122 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: the answer to, and so how do you how do 123 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: you find it? When you then challenge CEO, who's you 124 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: to making a decision and having a decision implemented? Where 125 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: you say, well, is that the right of course of action? 126 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: Is that the right decision? Have you weighed other factors? 127 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: I do that all the time. I challenge CEOs, but 128 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily do it in the first few minutes 129 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: of talking to them. Have you ever had as CEO 130 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: say you're fired? You know, there have been some engagements 131 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: a few of them that haven't worked out, but it 132 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: happens pretty rarely. I mean, I try to be patient. 133 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: I try to establish a relationship. I try to establish 134 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: some trust, which of course doesn't happen immediately. I should 135 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: also point out that there is a self selection that 136 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: goes on in terms of the kinds of CEOs that 137 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: I work with, that I bet a lot of them 138 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't want anything to do with someone like you, with 139 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: all due respect, no no, no disrespect taken there. It's 140 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: absolutely true. The really egregiously narcissistic, difficult, horrible CEO is 141 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: the bad bosses that people talk about. For the most part, 142 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 1: they're not calling me, they're well, they're not self aware 143 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: enough to call you, right, And that's the it. Self 144 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: awareness is really the key here. The ones that call 145 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: me have a modicum of self awareness, at the very least. 146 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: Nobody's ever fully self aware, but they have some sense 147 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: of their own loneliness, their own need to have somebody 148 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: to talk to. There may be people problems on their team, 149 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: there may be leadership challenges that they're facing that they 150 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: don't know how to deal with, and they need someone 151 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: to bring that perspective to bear. I want to talk 152 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: to you about sort of the need to have someone 153 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: in the organization be the truth teller for the leader. 154 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: I think I read a piece that you wrote in 155 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: the Harvard Business Review about how leaders pick people they 156 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: can confide in, but that those confidants can ultimately be 157 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: exceedingly damaging to the CEOs to most CEOs have a 158 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: tendency and do they have to fight against this of 159 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: picking sickophants and people who will basically echo and and 160 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: be a yes person right right so? And and how 161 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: big a problem is that I wouldn't make the generalization 162 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: that most CEOs tend to pick sick of fans part 163 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: of what I was trying to to say in this 164 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: article that you mentioned in the Harvard Business of You 165 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: a number of years ago, is that the the confidante 166 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: that a CEO chooses is an absolute reflection of the 167 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: CEOs psychology to begin with. So the better CEOs, and 168 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: we can talk about what a better CEO is, but 169 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: the better CEOs, the ones that are more self aware, 170 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: the ones that are more attuned to the fact that 171 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: they need someone to talk to to help them think 172 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: through things, are not going to pick the sick of fans. 173 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: They're going to pick the ones who talk straight to them, 174 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: who speak truth to power, so to speak. Um, the 175 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: ones who are more narcissistic, the ones who are more 176 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: fragile in terms of their self esteem, they're the ones 177 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: who are going to pick the sick of fans who 178 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: just tell them what they want to hear. Is Narcissisms 179 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: come up a couple of times. I have a feeling 180 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: it may come up more in the discussion as we 181 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: go on. But but to some extent, would all CEOs 182 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: have a level of narcissistic characteristics or behaviors or is 183 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: not necessarily true? That's a great opportunity for you for 184 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: me to give you my thirty second lecture on narcissism. 185 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. The term narcissism, certainly as it's used in 186 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: popular culture, is never meant as a compliment. Uh. It's 187 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: usually meant as an epithet. It's thrown around a lot 188 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: too casually. But narcissism is something that is better thought of, 189 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: at least in my view, as something that exists on 190 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: a spectrum, and we all have some of it, right, 191 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: There's a degree of healthy narcissism that is necessary for 192 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: any of us to be successful in life, to care 193 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: about how we show up for work every day. I 194 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: think of that that musical avenue que. Everybody's a little 195 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: bit racist. I always think everybody is a little bit narcissistic. 196 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: That's right, everybody is a little bit narcissistic. And in fact, 197 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: some people could use a little bit more of it. 198 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: The people who are too shy and retiring and and 199 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: and hide away and or don't put enough attention into 200 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: how they appear, or don't take pleasure in their work. 201 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: Those are all aspects of what I would describe as 202 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: healthy narcissism. So if you think of it on a 203 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: spectrum with healthy narcissism at one end and unhealthy or 204 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: pathological variations at the other end. I think it's just 205 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: a more holistic way, even though I think sometimes people 206 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: want to see things as black and white, like you 207 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: either have it or you don't. But narcissism is not 208 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: like pneumonia or appendicitist that where you either have it 209 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: or you don't. So on a scale of one to ten, 210 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: one being not enough narcissism and tend being way too much, 211 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: what sort of balance are we looking for in the 212 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: most effective uh, corporate leaders or political leaders that you 213 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: see where we're on the scale? Does that fun? You 214 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: sound like the finance guy that I know you to be. 215 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: I need a number. Carry, Give me a number for you, 216 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: I will say somewhere between five and seven. But I 217 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: don't think that way, so I don't. We'll save that 218 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: for a private conversation. I'm not gonna weigh in on 219 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: this conversation, but let me I mean carry our most 220 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: successful people. Do they rate high on the narcissism scale? 221 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: Because I feel like narcissists can be exceedingly charming, They're 222 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: really good at get getting what they want, UM often 223 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: high emotional intelligence. Am I crazy? No, you're not crazy. 224 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: But I would say that that narcissism and emotional intelligence 225 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: are not mutually exclusive up until a point, and then 226 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: when you cross over into the more pathological realm of narcissism, 227 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: then emotional intelligence falls off a cliff and you lose 228 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: that ability to read other people. You lose the ability 229 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: to empathize, and that's really critical here, the ability to 230 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: transiently put yourselves in the emotional shoes of somebody else. 231 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: That's my definition of empathy, by the way, is an 232 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: absolutely essential quality of a really good leader. But if 233 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: you're really narcissistic, the only person you care about is yourself. 234 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: You can't relate to understand care about emotions. The other 235 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: side empathy is the other side of the coin with 236 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: respect to narcissism. At the at the severe end of 237 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: the scale of narcissism, there's very little empathy. I hate 238 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: to dive in to narcissism too deeply, but I dated 239 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: a guy who I thought was a narcissist, not not 240 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: my husband, and um, you know, I spent a lot 241 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: of time in the self help section of Barnes and 242 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: Noble because I had never experienced a narcissistic personality. And 243 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is misunderstood and 244 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: carry your you're the expert. But from all the reading 245 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: that I've done is you know, narcissist staring at his 246 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: reflection in the in the pond or whatever. And the 247 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: mythology of narcissism it seems to connote someone has incredible 248 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: hubrists and think so highly of himself or herself. But 249 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: what I thought was interesting, this comes from deep, deep, 250 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: deep insecurity and this feeling that it's really overcompensating for 251 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: feeling less than And is that accurate? That is accurate. 252 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna run a follow some of the self help 253 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: book writers, but that's one of the problems with any 254 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: self help book is that it's necessarily general. They're certainly 255 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: intended to be helpful, and I don't question the intentions, 256 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily get into the deeper underpinnings of this, 257 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: which actually helps us empathize with the narcissists. I think 258 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: that's because you know, I read a lot. You know, 259 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: I was went through a bad period of my life 260 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: and I read a lot about this and a lot 261 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: about modeling about um, you know, someone forming a sense 262 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: of self very early on in their life and how 263 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: that contributes later to this narcissistic personality disorder. That's right. 264 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: We I want to make it really clear that when 265 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about whether it's narcissism or sociopathy or a 266 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: whole host of other psychological phenomenon that may come up 267 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: in this conversation, we're not passing moral judgment about any 268 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: of it. These are not moral judgments. These are clinical assessments, 269 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: and those are two very very different things. We have 270 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: to keep them separate to your question, Katie, about the 271 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: roots of narcissism, which I think is really what you're 272 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: asking about. It's not about somebody's a bad person and 273 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: that they're spoiled and need to be lapped on the 274 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: wrist or somehow received some kind of training. The roots 275 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: of narcissism, certainly from a psychoalytic point of view, go 276 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: way back to early childhood and usually are an individual's 277 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: very understandable response to certain kinds of emotional deprivation or 278 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: trauma in their early years. And it's hard to generalize 279 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: about that because, as we know, children can be scarred 280 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: in all sorts of ways, infinite ways. But the people 281 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: who come up through childhood and early adulthood and develop 282 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: into a narcissistic character. M have not had easy childhood's, 283 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: even if they look like they have grown up in 284 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: households of great privilege. It's time for us to take 285 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: a quick break. When we return, we'll talk with Dr 286 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: Carry Sulkowitz about the mental health of the most powerful 287 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: man in the world. No, not you, Mulner, the President 288 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: of the United States. That's right after this, and now 289 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: back with Dr Carry psychoist. One of the reasons we 290 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: were interested in having you come in, Carrie, is talking 291 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: about the pathology and the President of the United States, 292 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. There has been a lot of conversations about 293 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: his mental state or whether he is actually mentally fit 294 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: to lead the country. And narcissism is specifically malignant narcissism 295 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: has come up quite a bit. What's the difference between 296 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: your run of the male narcissist and a malignant narcissist. 297 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: Let me back up a minute if I can, um 298 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: I want to avoid the psychiatric approach and take the 299 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: more psychoanalytic approach here and discussing it. Frankly, I think 300 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: it's more helpful to people who are listening to this 301 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: and who are looking to understand tell us the difference. 302 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: So the difference and I'm both, I'm trend as a 303 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, But the psychiatric approach is largely a 304 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: medical based approach that is focused on the diagnosis of 305 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: mental illness and and of course the treatment of that illness. 306 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: When it comes to talking about a public figure, it's 307 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: something that I think is frankly not that helpful. There's 308 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: a whole controversy around that which we can get into 309 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: as well, the so called Goldwater water, the Goldwater Rule. 310 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: But I I think I find it personally less interesting 311 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: to try to attach a label uh to a president 312 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: or to anybody else for that matter. And more I 313 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: want to try to understand observable behavior, behavior that's observable 314 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: to all of us, not just to those who are 315 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: clinically trained, as well as the appeal of that behavior 316 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: to people who support him and like him and don't 317 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: question him. Let's talk about your analysis as a result 318 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: of everything that you've witnessed, that you've seen the president's behavior, 319 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: the president's way of communicating via tweets, speeches, that he's given, 320 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: his behavior rallies. What do you think about his personality 321 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: or his pathology. And I'm going to try to put 322 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: this in terms that are certainly informed by my clinical perspective, 323 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: but that really come through the lens of being an 324 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: advisor to leaders. That's the That's the lens that interests 325 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: me the most, and I think is most relevant because 326 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: for better or worse, he is the leader of the 327 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: free world, at least the leader of this country. Uh. 328 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: And after all the talk about narcissism, I would say 329 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: that his narcissism is only one part of what we 330 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: are dealing with here. Uh. In fact, his narcissism, while 331 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: so obvious. I mean, look, Katie, you don't have to 332 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: be Sigmund Freud to decide that Donald Trump is narcissistic 333 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: as an adjective, what about malignant le narcissistic? Well, malignant 334 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: is a is a word that is used to describe 335 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: the extremes. It's not a black or white, sharp distinction. 336 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: But he is. He is out there in terms of 337 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: his his clear focus on himself. But the reason why 338 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: I want to move a little bit beyond his narcissism, 339 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: even though I'm not in any way diminishing the importance 340 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: of it, particularly the lack of empathy is that while 341 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: his narcissistic behavior is so obvious, so overt, the very 342 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,719 Speaker 1: fact that it is so prominent obscures other aspects of 343 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: his psychology and his behavior than, in some ways are 344 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: more troubling to me. I should also point out that 345 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: narcissism alone has never precluded anyone from being president, and 346 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: if we look at the modern presidents of this country, 347 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: some of the more narcissistic ones have been arguably very 348 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: successful presidents, and those who were on the lesser end 349 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: of the narcissistic spectrum arguably have been less successful as presidents. 350 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: To foot put this in terms of narcissism alone, I 351 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: think misses the complexity of the issue. Carrie, give us 352 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: some background on the Goldwater Rule, when that came about, 353 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: and why that limits other medical professionals from opining on 354 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: public figures. The Goldwater rule traces its history back to 355 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty for presidential election, when very Goldwater was 356 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: running for president. Of course, he didn't win, but during 357 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: that campaign, a magazine that existed at the time that's 358 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: lo gone called Fact Magazine, published a survey of American psychiatrists. 359 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: Members of the American Psychiatric Association UM and many of 360 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: them felt that Goldwater was unfit to serve by virtue 361 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: of his mental health, and that in particular, that he 362 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: had a paranoid personality. That's what they said in the 363 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: magazine published that survey. Of course, the election was over, 364 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: Goldwater lost, and after the election he sued not the psychiatrist, 365 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: but he sued the magazine itself for libel, and this 366 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: case dragged out for a number of years. Ultimately he won, 367 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: but it sent the psychiatric profession reeling. The American Psychiatric 368 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: Association and in particular, studied this problem and came up 369 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: with what then became known as the Goldwater Rule, which 370 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, came out in the early seventies, 371 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: So there was a long period of time between the 372 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: election and the issuance of this rule, which has just 373 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: recently been updated even more strongly by the A p A. 374 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: Which basically says, if you do not have personal experience 375 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: with an individual, seeing them face to face, um, you're 376 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: in no position to evaluate them. That's right. That The 377 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: rule basically says two simple things. One is that you 378 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: can't make a diagnosis at a distance. You can't make 379 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: a diagnosis without actually examining the patient. And then the 380 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: corollarity of that is, if you do examine someone as 381 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: a patient, then you're bound by reasons concidentiality. But I'm yeah, 382 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: But my own view is I actually find the gold 383 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: Water rule invalid and not helpful and frankly stifling of 384 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: freedom of speech. I think it's I agree with one 385 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: narrow aspect of it. It's not responsible to be slinging 386 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: around diagnoses as epithets. But that's not what we're talking 387 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: about here. Uh And so I actually find the gold 388 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: Water Rule relatively irrelevant to the current discussion. Any commentator, 389 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: whether you're trained clinically as a psychiatrist, psychologist, psychoanalyst, or 390 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: anybody else for that matter, can comment on the mental 391 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: state of of another person. It's nice to be able 392 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: to comment on it if you have some training and 393 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: doing so. Um. And these days, there is an abundance 394 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: of publicly available information about public figures that there wasn't 395 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty four. Well, that's what I was 396 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: going to ask you about. I mean, so as you 397 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: compare uh, in person sessions with a person compared to 398 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: social media articles, speeches, things that are in the public record, 399 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: other information the public domain. What's the qualitative difference between 400 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: the two as you as you're trying to form a judgment, 401 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: or for that matter, we're trying for the irony, and 402 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: the qualitative difference between looking at all of this detailed, nuanced, 403 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: colorful information in the public domain versus talking to somebody 404 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: in private, particularly for some kinds of people, and I 405 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: would be inclined to put the President in that category. 406 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: You'll you'll probably get a lot more from publicly available 407 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: information than from examining him privately. For the fact of 408 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: the matter, well, it's less staged. He is never going 409 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: to I think it's fairly safe to assume that he 410 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: is never going to seek out treatment because he doesn't 411 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: think there's anything wrong. That's one of the reasons why 412 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: narcissistic people never go to a psychiatrist and say, Doc, 413 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: can you help me with my narcissism? That just doesn't happen. 414 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: But you know, how comfortable are you speaking out carry 415 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: because I know the American Psychiatric Association still abides by 416 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: the Goldwater Rule. It's the largest psychiatric organization in the world. 417 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: Are a lot of people in your field, uh, do 418 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: they feel this is just grossly inappropriate? Some do, but 419 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: many don't, and many psychiatrists, psychologist, psychoanalysts have spoken out 420 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: very publicly about Trump, again, not to issue a diagnosis, 421 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: but to talk about the phenomenon that we're all observing 422 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: and troubled by personally. I'm not even a member of 423 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,239 Speaker 1: the American Psychiatric Association, haven't been for probably two decades, uh, 424 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: And I'm speaking as a as a private citizen who 425 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: happens to be trained as a psychoanalyst. There are many 426 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: mental health professionals carry who agree with you. There's an 427 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: organization called Duty to Warn, and I think they've amassed 428 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: something like thirty eight thousand signatures, many from mental health professionals, 429 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: apparently saying that this group believes it has a moral 430 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: obligation to speak out about Donald Trump and his his 431 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 1: mental capacity. So do you agree with that? I do agree. 432 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: My name is among those thirty eight thousand or so, 433 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: and I have no hesitation to sign on to that. 434 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: I do feel that that's right. The one of the 435 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: hallmarks of a clinical perspective is a duty to warn, 436 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: which quite simply is that it's it's the one thing 437 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: that supersedes confidentiality, and that that if you learn and again, 438 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: it's it doesn't fully apply because we're not talking about 439 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: a clinical relationship with the president, obviously, But if you 440 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: learn that somebody is dangerous to themselves or to others, 441 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: there is a duty on the part of the mental 442 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: health professional to warn the appropriate authorities. In this case, 443 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: one would argue the public at large about that danger. 444 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: Are you a Democrat or Republican? I'm a registered Democrat. 445 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: And some listeners might be hearing this, Kerry and thinking 446 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: your politics are seeping in to your judgment about Donald Trump. 447 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,479 Speaker 1: What would you say to them? And if in fact 448 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: his politics were more aligned with yours and his policy 449 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: proposals were more in keeping with yours, do you think 450 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: you would find his personal behavior or the way he 451 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: conducts himself less repugnant. I think it's a great question. 452 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: There is no question that my political views vary with 453 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: Trump's quite a bit and affect my my feelings about him. Um. 454 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: I was not a fan of George Bush. Uh I 455 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: was not a fan of Bush's politics either, but I 456 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: never thought that his psychopathology was the primary issue that 457 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: was about political differences. You did once right, though, that 458 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: George W. Bush kind of dissed the notion of therapy, 459 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: and you didn't think that was a good thing because 460 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: he made a comment about not wanting to get on 461 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: the couch and talk about what he did in a 462 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: rock that you're referring to a letter that I had 463 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: published in the New York Times that was about a 464 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: comment that Bush made, um about showing his lack of 465 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: curiosity to learn from the mistakes of the invasion of Baghdad. Um. 466 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: And Uh, I thought that he by saying that that 467 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: was he was gonna leave that for somebody to be 468 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: on the couch about. That was a bit of a 469 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: gratuitous slam about the mental health professions. But that wasn't 470 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: about Bush's psychopathology. UM. So, to answer your question directly, 471 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: do my politics affect my views of Trump? Undoubtedly they do. 472 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: How can they not infuse or informed to some degree 473 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. And it's difficult to to tease those 474 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: apart entirely. Um. But I think that what makes this 475 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: even more compelling is I think that a lot of Republicans, Um, 476 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure they liked Trump all that much either, 477 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: and I think they're as observant as anybody else about 478 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: his his quirk, his personality, uh distortions and so forth. 479 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: I think that some are exploiting the moment of his 480 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: presidency now to get certain policies in place, But I 481 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: don't think there's any particular love there, And as soon 482 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: as his ability to keep that window of policy opportunity 483 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: open closes, I don't think that anyone's going to rush 484 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: to his defense. Let's talk about people who like what 485 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: they see. Over nine of the people the last poll 486 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: I checked said they would vote for Donald Trump all 487 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: over again. And I read an interesting essay by an 488 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: editor of a newspaper in Ohio that endorsed Trump, and 489 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: he explains what his supporters like about the president even still. 490 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: He writes, they appreciate Trump's America First agenda not because 491 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: they believe in isolationism, but because they believe the United 492 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: States and its citizens should be the government's top priority. 493 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: What Trump's supporters also appreciate about him are the very 494 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: attributes for which he is relentlessly criticized in the media. 495 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: People here, a farming community supplemented by modest pain retail 496 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: jobs and a few factory opportunities, are frank and plain spoken. 497 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: They're weary of politicians whose every statement seems carefully crafted 498 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: to say nothing and offend no one. You know, I 499 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: agree with a lot of that myself. I might add 500 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: I think that the priority of a president should be 501 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: the American people, although I do think that the American 502 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: presidency involves taking a role in the world, not just 503 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: in the United States. But I agree that that Americans 504 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: should be the priority of the president. Um. I think 505 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: the plane spokenness is a is a complicated issue there too, 506 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: because that gets into the whole discussion of political correctness, 507 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: which I think is a term that has been so 508 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: co opted by the political right to be an excuse 509 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: for saying whatever kind of garbage, including racist and misogynists 510 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: and so on, garbage comes to their minds. So I 511 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: think that term has ceased to be useful because it 512 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: originally preferred to being sensitive to other people's feelings, and 513 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: I think that they're still room for that. I don't 514 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: think we should be saying whatever comes to our mind. 515 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: That's a terrible idea if that's what the opposition to 516 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: political correctness means. But I think that the people who 517 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: are in parts of the country who are economically disadvantaged, 518 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: who are struggling with the opioided epidemic, who are disadvantaged 519 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: in all sorts of ways, and who have been neglected 520 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: by their their government, local and national people who I 521 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: understand their distrust of politicians making a glib, meaningless, superficial 522 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: comments designed to get reelected. So I'm extremely sympathetic to 523 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: and supportive of their of their plight, and we need 524 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: to do something about it. And I'm not saying that 525 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: there that the Democrats have got that all figured out 526 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: either and have addressed any of that with with anything 527 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: approaching adequacy. What concerns me, though, is that Trump's psychology 528 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: plays into the very vulnerability of those people. That is 529 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: part of why they're suffering right now, and they're being 530 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: duped into believing that this man who makes these glibs, simplistic, 531 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: boil it down to phrases kinds of comments, is going 532 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: to help them. And I am worried that they are 533 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: wrong and tragically wrong, and that electing a president like 534 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: this is voting against their self interest. Okay, so suppose 535 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: that a board of directors had asked you to look 536 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: at this candidate ceo, candidate Trump, that we were considering 537 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: appointing this person as CEO of a corporation what would 538 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: be the summary of of your observations. I would raise 539 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: concerns about his ability to inspire with a moral purpose, 540 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: and I think moral leadership is actually the highest form 541 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: of leadership, and I don't see that from him. He 542 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: is a leader. If you define leadership most narrowly, it's 543 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: and it sounds like a circular thing I'm about to say, 544 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: but leadership has to do with the ability to inspire followership, 545 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: and clearly he has done that. So did Hitler and Mussolini. 546 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: They inspired followership. Whether or not there was a moral 547 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: purpose and an ethical basis to their leadership is another story. 548 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: So I don't think he has that. I think that 549 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: other aspects of his leadership that are troubling to me 550 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: are his impulsivity. He is an impulse written character who 551 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: has apparently very little tolerance for frustration or for delayed gratification. 552 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: He has to have it now, and he does it now. 553 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: That's evidenced by his tweets and by his shoot from 554 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: the hip approach to just about everything. I don't think 555 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: he's particularly intelligent, so looking at his cognitive abilities, I 556 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: think he's not a reader, a studier. He has to 557 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: have everything dumbed down into bullet points. I, for one, 558 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: would like to have a president or a leader who 559 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: who actually digs deeply into the issues and recognizes that 560 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: that problems are complex, not not overly simplified. He So, 561 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: there's there's impulsivity, there's narcissism. There, there's what I would 562 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: describe as sociopathy, and that to me may be the 563 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: most troubling at all. Which what does that mean? Well, 564 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: So to define terms, first, there are there are three 565 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: terms that are often used relatively interchangeably and and appropriately, 566 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: so people refer to sociopathy, psychopathy, and then there's a 567 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: psychiatric diagnostic term called the antisocial personality disorder. Again, that's 568 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: making it a medical kind of disorder, which is why 569 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: it's my least favorite of those three terms. But they're 570 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: all essentially the same um. Sociopathy has to do with 571 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: extremes of lack of empathy. These you'll notice that these 572 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: these terms blur, and that's the nature of things. People 573 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: don't fall neatly into one bucket or another. Extremes of 574 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: lack of empathy the willingness to harm others without any 575 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: apparent conscience, and it's the absence of a conscience that 576 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: is one of the most prominent features of sociopathy. UM 577 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: and certainly you often hear that Donald Trump refuses to 578 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: apologize for anything or except blame for anything, and is 579 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: that consistent with this sort of pathology? It is consistent 580 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: with that not only does he refuse to accept blame 581 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: or responsibility, but he uses what is what a psychoanalyst 582 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: would describe as a very primitive defense mechanism for dealing 583 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: with that, and that is called projection. In other words, 584 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: if he does something wrong, rather than own it or 585 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: even denying it, he both denies it and then attributes 586 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: it to somebody else. So if if somebody is if 587 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: he's feeling m vulnerable, then he projects that vulnerability onto 588 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: someone else and makes them feel weak. Are there qualities 589 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: that you've observed in the President United States that you 590 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: admire or that you think are bona fide strengths. I'm 591 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: hard pressed to find them in isolation, because I think 592 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: they can't be evaluated or really looked at that way. 593 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: I think they have to be looked at in in aggregate. 594 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,239 Speaker 1: And the totality of his personality is something that I 595 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: find terrifying because of its ability to inspire and permit 596 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: bad behavior and others. Well, the point you talked about 597 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: in terms of inspiring moral purpose or leadership, if I 598 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: simplified that when you go around and you look at 599 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: the cabinet meeting and you have these very accomplished people 600 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: former president of Goldman Sachs, former CEO, chairman of Exxon Mobile, 601 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 1: and other cabinet leaders and senior members of the administration 602 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: praising the president. Let's take a listen to that cabinet 603 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: meeting that John's referring to. Maybe start with Mike and 604 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: we'll just go down and just you name your position, 605 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: and then will ask these folks to go back and 606 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: have a good day, and we're going to discuss the 607 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: various supports. Mike, thank you as president, and just greatest 608 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: privilege of my life. It's the surveyor as vice president, 609 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: who a president is keeping his word of the American people. 610 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: This is a team he was as symbol that's working 611 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: hand and love with the betterment America. I don't I 612 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: want to thank you for that. These are a great 613 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: team members and we're on your taking. Thank you so exactly. 614 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: Exac bright message and is being responded the responses fagness 615 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: around the country. So Carrie. Here, you have this group 616 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: of senior people that are happy to be under the 617 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: leadership of President Trump. How do you explain that and 618 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: basically slobbering all over him. Carry Let's just be honest. 619 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: On an emotional level, I found it disgusting the behavior 620 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: of the members of that cabinet. But it's understandable too, 621 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: in that they are members of the cabinet and he 622 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: is the President of the United States, and they're terrified 623 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 1: that they're going to get fired if they don't fall 624 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: in line, right, And that, Katie is exactly the problem. 625 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: It's not just that they were kissing his behind in 626 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: that meeting, but it's that they are doing that in 627 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: a way that is a reflection of the power differential 628 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: that exists. They are afraid of him. So the fact 629 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: that they're accomplished executives in their own right, which of 630 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: course is true, uh, doesn't really have much to do 631 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: with the context that they're in now. They're not there 632 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: as the CEO of Exxon or of a senior person 633 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: at Goldman Sat. There there is the member as members 634 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: of his cabinet, and it's a way of pledging allegiance, 635 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: and that's what people do with totalitarian leaders who are 636 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: who are cruel, who are sadistic, and who demand either 637 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: overtly or more often uh covertly, demand that kind of 638 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: pledge of allegiance. I'd love to pick your brain about 639 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: a couple of other episodes that we've witnessed. Here's a 640 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: clip of President Trump's first address as president, when he 641 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: spoke to people at the CIA, when he fixated on 642 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: the attendance at his inauguration. Let's listen and then we'll discuss. 643 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: This was in front of the Wall of Honor. Yes, 644 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: And I turned on and by mistake, I get this 645 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: network and it showed an empty field and it said 646 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: we drew two hundred and fifty thousand people. Now that's 647 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: that bad, but it's a lie. We had two hundred 648 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand people literally around, you know, in the 649 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: little ball that we constructed, that was two hundred and 650 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: fifty thousand people. The rest of the you know, twenty 651 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: block area all the way back to the Washington Monument 652 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: was peck So we caught them, and we caught them 653 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: in a beauty. And I think that a lot of 654 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: people talked about how inappropriate it was for him to 655 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: raise this in front of as John mentioned, the wall 656 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: of honor people who had sacrificed their lives as working 657 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: for the CIA through the years. I mean, it's a 658 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: very sacred place in that building. But it also seems 659 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: to reflect carry a pattern of behavior of getting fixated, 660 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: of trying to right wrongs, of trying to be correct 661 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: in his assertion, whether it's losing the popular vote and 662 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: insisting that there were a lot there was a lot 663 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: of illegal voting or else he would have won the 664 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: popular vote, insisting about the crowd at his inauguration. We've 665 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: seen this sort of repeating itself. What does that suggest 666 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: to you? He is preoccupied with his image, again consistent 667 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: with the nurse sis m. He is preoccupied with the 668 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: appearance of bigness, and he needs to be big and 669 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,919 Speaker 1: bigger than everybody, whether that's the crowd that he's got 670 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: or god knows what else, has to be bigger than 671 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: everybody else is and he's bragged about that too. Um. 672 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: He also is preoccupied with the idea that others are lying, 673 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: and that's what I was talking about earlier when I 674 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: was talking about projection. Um. He lies frequently, and the 675 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: press has made a sport of cataloging all of his lives. 676 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: But he is constantly accusing others of lying. And that's 677 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: that's what a great example of projection, where he's disavowing 678 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: something that he does in attributing it to somebody else. 679 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: As far as you can tell, carry, is there anyone 680 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: in President Trump's inner circle, either professionally or personally, who 681 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: has the power to tell him what he doesn't want 682 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: to hear? One would hope based on their pedigrees, their credentials, 683 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: But I haven't seen much evidence of it yet. Of course, 684 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: I'm not at all privy to what's going on behind 685 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: closed doors, but people don't last very long, apparently, around 686 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: this president if they do tell him the truth, if 687 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: they speak truth to power. What do you make of 688 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: Trump's affection for leaders like Vladimir Putin? He seems to 689 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: be drawn to Vladimir Putin and other kind of strong men, 690 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: if you will, what's that about? He? You're right, it's 691 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: fascinating that he's drawn to to putting another strong men leaders. Uh, 692 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: And I think that in some ways he identifies with that. 693 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: It's aspirational for him. I think he uh sees that 694 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: the only kind of valid leadership is leadership and involves 695 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: exerting absolute power and control um and Putin has been 696 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: at it for a lot longer than than Trump has. 697 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's a great line about about 698 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: power from I believe it's from Robert Carrow in his 699 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: biography of Johnson, where he talks about how how power 700 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: doesn't corrupt, power reveals and I've always found that to 701 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: be a particularly insightful comment that given given someone great 702 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: power rings out the personality that already existed, just underscores that, 703 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: underscores it gives it a bigger platform to have more 704 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: profound effects. Carrie Solkowitz, it's so great to have you. 705 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming in. I could talk 706 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: to you all day about all sorts of things. In fact, 707 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: I'd like to lie down and continue this conversation. Do 708 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: you have one of those paper towels and the change 709 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,720 Speaker 1: by Harold? You did? You sold your couch? That's true. 710 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: Well maybe you'll make a special exception for me carry. 711 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, John, good job, Thank you, Katie. 712 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: That was fine. You're very good at what you do. 713 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 1: Thank you. Do you think that John has a future 714 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: and podcasting, Carrie? I think he does, But You're the best. 715 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: Sorry mull Okay, come back, Brian. A big thank you 716 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: as always to our trustee podcast team, our producer Gianna Palmer, 717 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Jared O'Connell, Alison Bresnik for all she 718 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: does for us on social media. Thanks to Emily Beana 719 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: of Katie Kirk Media, and to nor Ritchie for her 720 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: editorial support as well. Nora's very tan these days, Noura, 721 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: don't forget to wear your sunscreen. Meanwhile, we love our 722 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: theme music, don't you, John. I'd give it like a 723 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: ninety five for dancing. That's from Mark Phillips. He's our composer. 724 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: I like the music, do too. Anyway. Brian Goldsmith and 725 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: I are the show's executive producers. Where is Brian? He 726 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 1: is on a family vacation and he was nice enough 727 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: to vacate the premises and allow you to sit in 728 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: and he sent me a couple of questions. Thanks Brian. 729 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: We love Brian, and don't worry, Brian. John does not 730 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: want your job. I don't. He definitely doesn't want your job. 731 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: He spends enough time with me. He doesn't need to 732 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: be locked up in a studio anyway. You can find 733 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: us on social media too often, according to my husband 734 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: media anyway, I'm at Katie Kirk on Twitter and Instagram 735 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: and Katie dot Kuric on Snapchat. You can find me 736 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: on Facebook as well. Brian tweets his heart out at 737 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: at Goldsmith b and Muelner. You guys have got to 738 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: follow John Mulder on Instagram. It's j O h n 739 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: Oh sorry j j o h N m O l 740 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: n e R. He is really really funny. He's quite 741 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: irreverent though, and sometimes says things that people who like 742 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: me don't like, like when you post pictures of you 743 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: and other hot women, other hot women, not just me. Anyway, 744 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: It's okay, I think you're really funny. Take a look. 745 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: There's some good stuff. Alec Baldwin taught me to do 746 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: an impersonation of the man we spoke about today. I 747 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: know a Donald Trump impersonation. You need to work on 748 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: your hand chest. Here's a little bit mulner But anyway, 749 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: if you enjoy our show and you haven't rated, reviewed, 750 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: or subscribe to us in Apple Podcasts, please just do 751 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: it already. We'll talk to you next week. John, I 752 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: may not talk to you next week, so thanks for 753 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 1: having me. Katie fun being with you,