1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,920
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

5
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

6
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

7
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

8
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 3: super producer, Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you.

9
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,160
Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

10
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,400
Speaker 3: don't want you to know. We're finally doing it. This

11
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,800
Speaker 3: is our episode about chips, and thank goodness because we

12
00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,040
Speaker 3: talked about Yeah, we talked about chips a lot off air.

13
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 3: We were talking about on Instagram ad that some of

14
00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 3: us have been getting for very very strange potato chips, really.

15
00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 4: Strange and exotic potato.

16
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

17
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,960
Speaker 4: I think both you and I Ben have received one

18
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 4: for a Lais Shabu shaboo hot pot flavor, which seems delightful.

19
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 4: And of course you know you and I, I think

20
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 4: all four of us frequent Asian supermarkets quite a lot

21
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,000
Speaker 4: like the super h marts of the world, and there

22
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,640
Speaker 4: you'll see this insane variety of chips that you just

23
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 4: don't get in your you know, Humble, Kroger or Publics

24
00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 4: or whatever. But we're not really talking about those kind

25
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 4: of chips today, though, are we.

26
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Unfortunately, I guess we should rip off the band

27
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:36,080
Speaker 3: aid now. The chips are amazing, potato chips in particular.

28
00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,319
Speaker 3: But there's another kind of chip that we're going to

29
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,160
Speaker 3: explore tonight. It is the kind of chip that makes

30
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,600
Speaker 3: civilization as we know it possible in the first place.

31
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,920
Speaker 3: These chips are often referred to as semiconductors. Think of

32
00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,240
Speaker 3: them as the silent servants of the digital age. Depending

33
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 3: upon whom you ask, they may just trigger the next

34
00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 3: World war. Here are the facts before we get any further.

35
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 3: What is a semiconductor? This is the land of no

36
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 3: dumb questions.

37
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,040
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of that, let's let's just do a little

38
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 2: upfront information here for everybody listening. Your boy Matt is

39
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 2: a dumb dumb and did all of his research on

40
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,760
Speaker 2: LK ninety nine superconductor stuff that was going on in

41
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 2: the news. I literally I don't know where I crossed

42
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:31,920
Speaker 2: my my semiconductors, guys, But I totally like, I have

43
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 2: no idea what's going on in this episode. So I'm

44
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 2: gonna be just completely I've lost.

45
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,639
Speaker 4: Sorry, Surely that knowledge will come in handy somewhere down there.

46
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 2: I don't think it will. I don't think it will.

47
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,960
Speaker 3: I think it will. But like, okay, before we get

48
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,360
Speaker 3: into semiconductors, Ben tell us a little bit about the

49
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 3: LK ninety nine because that news sort of rocked rocked

50
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 3: the digital world a few weeks back.

51
00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:06,360
Speaker 2: Sure, well, today the news came out that officially, people

52
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,680
Speaker 2: who've been trying to replicate this super this room temperature

53
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 2: superconductor technology, it came back and they said, no, it's

54
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,960
Speaker 2: not actually a superconductor. It does have really cool things

55
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 2: going on about it, but it's not a room temperature superconductor,

56
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 2: which would would have changed the game for everything, including

57
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,840
Speaker 2: and especially chips and semiconductors. So anyway, let's get into

58
00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 2: the episode and talk about semiconductors. I apologize, guys.

59
00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,400
Speaker 4: I guess that begs the question. We're talking about, first

60
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 4: and foremost the idea of conductivity, you know, and what

61
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 4: does it mean?

62
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 5: You know?

63
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 4: I mean not not to you know, state the obvious,

64
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 4: but you know, conducting materials are able to allow electricity

65
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 4: to pass through them and can be used for all

66
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 4: things like wiring and you know, it's you know, there

67
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 4: are materials that are conductive where it's not a good thing.

68
00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 4: You know, you could it could be dangerous, you know,

69
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 4: and you have to be very careful about, you know,

70
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,680
Speaker 4: having electricity around pools, like you know, don't don't blow

71
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 4: dry your hair in the bathtub and keep the toaster

72
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,720
Speaker 4: far far away, because that's the recipe for disaster. But

73
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:18,039
Speaker 4: the idea of like something that conducts better or less better.

74
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't live on the electric fence of conductors.

75
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, does urine and conduct electricity. It's got electrolytes in it, right,

76
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,440
Speaker 4: would you would you if you really whizzed on the

77
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 4: electric fence, would you get zapped?

78
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,599
Speaker 6: I mean, it's not a good idea, probably not, because

79
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,200
Speaker 6: we know water can conduct electricity, and urine is you know,

80
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,839
Speaker 6: urines like laqua it's water with a little something extra.

81
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if Luquah wants us to portray them

82
00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,799
Speaker 3: that way. But on the other end of the spectrum,

83
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 3: there's the insulators, right, like glass is an insulator. Uh yeah, yeah,

84
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 3: electricity doesn't really vibe with those. So when it was

85
00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 3: funny we're talking off air just before we recorded about

86
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 3: semi conductor, why would you want something that is in

87
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 3: this goldilocks zone between insulation and super conductivity. Well, it's

88
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,480
Speaker 3: because it allows you to control the flow. It lets

89
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 3: you put some lets you put some if VENs, some

90
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,279
Speaker 3: ones and zeros into the mix. And as you're listening

91
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 3: to tonight's show, there are billions of little semiconductor ones

92
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 3: and zeros making this possible. Even if it doesn't sound

93
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,760
Speaker 3: like a bunch of ones and zeros, everything you do

94
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,320
Speaker 3: electronically is that.

95
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,080
Speaker 4: I sort of made the comment off Mike that the

96
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,600
Speaker 4: name semiconductor almost sounds kind of like a bit of

97
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,840
Speaker 4: a self phone where it's like, I'm not that good

98
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,839
Speaker 4: at conducting electrocity. I'm only semi good at it. But

99
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 4: that matters because we want to be able to, as

100
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 4: you said, Ben, kind of stem the flow of electricity

101
00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 4: in ways that are conducive to certain technological processes, you know.

102
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 4: And those those billions of switches, I guess the ones

103
00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,640
Speaker 4: and zeros. If then's that's what's so important. And all

104
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 4: of that's contained within this tiny little piece of real estate.

105
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, and that tiny real estate. And then let's

106
00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,200
Speaker 2: go back to what Ben, you were saying about conductors

107
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 2: and insulators and semiconductors. The problem with metal like copper,

108
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 2: or even when you get into things like silicon, when

109
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 2: you pump electrons through there, let's say, in copper, electrons

110
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 2: are just going willy nilly everywhere throughout that those atoms

111
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 2: of that copper, the electrons you go in, it goes everywhere.

112
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 2: That's why you get resistance. That's why you get heat

113
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 2: in anything. Right, Like we were just talking about my

114
00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,280
Speaker 2: computers being so hot. I've been having these recording problems.

115
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 2: It's because this thing is generating a ton of heat,

116
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 2: which is just the resistance the electricity lost basically due

117
00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 2: to the materials used in the creation of this machine.

118
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:02,240
Speaker 2: And that's why.

119
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 4: And over time it's gotten less efficient I guess, or

120
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 4: the battery has lost some of its original oomph and

121
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,200
Speaker 4: now it's sort of like generating way more of that

122
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 4: than it should and which is why it's time to

123
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:15,640
Speaker 4: put that thing out to pasture.

124
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 2: Well, it's also because the semiconductors that were manufactured back

125
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,280
Speaker 2: in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, you know, were of a

126
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 2: certain grade and they degrade over time, right.

127
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent.

128
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:28,320
Speaker 4: I mean.

129
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,200
Speaker 3: So the question is of course coming from a culture

130
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:37,119
Speaker 3: where bigger, better, faster is always superior. It might seem

131
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 3: counterintuitive to have something less conductive, but having a semiconductor

132
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 3: material because of the way resistance works, it allows humans

133
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 3: to make amplifiers. It allows humans to make switches. And

134
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,960
Speaker 3: shout out to professor of electrical engineering at Arizona State University,

135
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 3: Trevor Thornton has a great explainer on this with the

136
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,960
Speaker 3: good folks at the conversation, and Thornton puts it this way.

137
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,680
Speaker 3: He breaks down the chips in a very understandable way.

138
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 3: He says, these chips are typically made from thin slices

139
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 3: of silicon, and they have complex components laid out in

140
00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,679
Speaker 3: specific patterns. These patterns control the flow of current using

141
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 3: those switches we're talking about transistors, and Thornton says, it's

142
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 3: pretty much the same way you control the electrical current

143
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,040
Speaker 3: in your home. The light switch is a literal switch

144
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 3: right turned off or on the flow of the electricity.

145
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 3: But the difference between the switches in our houses and

146
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 3: the switches in a semiconductor is that those semiconductor switches

147
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,679
Speaker 3: are first off, very very tiny, and they're entirely electrical.

148
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,920
Speaker 3: They need no mechanical components to flip, and there are

149
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,920
Speaker 3: billions of switches, tens of billions in the sophisticated chips.

150
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,720
Speaker 3: And this is an area not much bigger than your thumbnail,

151
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,079
Speaker 3: not even know your thumbnail is probably your best fingernail,

152
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,720
Speaker 3: not much bigger than your pinky nail.

153
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,199
Speaker 4: And that's the part where I just my mind just

154
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 4: kind of glazes over where I'm like, this is, for

155
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,560
Speaker 4: all intents and purposes, might as well be alien tech

156
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,600
Speaker 4: to me. Like I understand a circuit and the basics

157
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,480
Speaker 4: of electronics, you know, and like the if then of

158
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 4: like a basic printed circuit board, like in a piece

159
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,520
Speaker 4: of musical equipment, for example, and oftentimes those will incorporate switches,

160
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 4: you know, to turn a thing on or off, whether

161
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 4: it be blocking a signal path you know, or like whatever,

162
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 4: or turning on a certain filter or whatever it might be.

163
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,720
Speaker 4: But this whole billions of switches in an area not

164
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,120
Speaker 4: much larger than the size of a fingernail is just

165
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 4: I can't wrap my head around it.

166
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 3: It makes me think, you know, at some point, well,

167
00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 3: at some point, there will be a physical limit to

168
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 3: how many switches can be put onto a single chip.

169
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,440
Speaker 3: When you get to the when you get down to

170
00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,680
Speaker 3: a single atom size. Right now, you can't. You can't

171
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 3: go much smaller. But if we could, eventually you could,

172
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 3: You might be able to make so many switches that

173
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,200
Speaker 3: you can make a simulation of the entire observable universe.

174
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 3: I am not high, by the way.

175
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 4: Well I'm not you there yet, but I have to

176
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 4: say too, Like, I mean, this is the amount of

177
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 4: these switches, the number or whatever that has to do

178
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,160
Speaker 4: with how many processes a chip can do at one time.

179
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 4: So we're talking about evolution of chips over time. These

180
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 4: things I think they're called threads or whatever, like within

181
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 4: a computer processor. The higher power chips, the higher power

182
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 4: processors can do more of this can contain more of

183
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 4: these switches. I'm just again, I'm conjecturing. I'm pretty sure

184
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:42,720
Speaker 4: that's right, though.

185
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,720
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. For a long time, people were following

186
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 3: something called Moore's law. And Moore's law is this stunning

187
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 3: observation that the number of switches or transistors in an

188
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,360
Speaker 3: integrated circuit doubles or has doubled every two years. It's

189
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,720
Speaker 3: a stunning and precipitous of a lie. Not all of

190
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,719
Speaker 3: these chips are the same. We can think of rough categories.

191
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,640
Speaker 3: Memory chips they store data and software as binary code.

192
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,199
Speaker 3: Digital chips they manipulate the data based on instructions from software,

193
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,160
Speaker 3: and then wireless chips receive data from high frequency radio transmitters,

194
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 3: convert those into electrical signals, and then it's back to

195
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,839
Speaker 3: the chips. This is all run by the language of software.

196
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 3: All software does, even the very events stuff. It just

197
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,560
Speaker 3: coordinates the ways in which these different chips work together.

198
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,280
Speaker 4: Would that include things like RF you know, using your

199
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 4: phone to tap on a thing to you know, pay,

200
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,640
Speaker 4: or like the way you're receiving or transmitting short distance

201
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 4: kind of data.

202
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, it's it's pretty much. It's actually, it's weird.

203
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 3: It's almost easier at this point, I think to try

204
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 3: and name electronics without these sorts of chips, because they're

205
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,120
Speaker 3: in everything your phone, your car, your TV remote, medical applications,

206
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:09,160
Speaker 3: military applications. Back in the day, semiconductor chip evolution moved

207
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 3: with the cycles of PCs. So the more personal computers improved,

208
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 3: the more sophisticated they became, the more sophisticated chips became,

209
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,560
Speaker 3: and then iPhones hit. iPhones were a big game changer.

210
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 3: At this point, I think we should shout out our

211
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 3: pal Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quister from tech Stuff. He's

212
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,679
Speaker 3: had one of the longest running tech podcasts in the game,

213
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,560
Speaker 3: and he explains this stuff in depth if you want

214
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,880
Speaker 3: a less conspiratorial primer.

215
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,800
Speaker 2: But here the smart device that means there's one some

216
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,680
Speaker 2: of this stuff in them, and that's literally smart anything.

217
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, your.

218
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 2: Thermostat, your washer and drfrigerator, yeah, everything, your massage chair.

219
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,280
Speaker 4: So the wireless chip is also again I'm sorry to

220
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:58,880
Speaker 4: be beating this in the ground, but like that's what

221
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,040
Speaker 4: allows you to Wi Fi, so, like you know, and

222
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 4: so many of these smart devices have to be on

223
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 4: a network and don't have an Ethernet port on them.

224
00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,040
Speaker 4: So that's the kind of chip we're talking about here,

225
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 4: probably in addition to the digital chip. Maybe not memory chip,

226
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 4: I don't know. Memory chip is more like RAM on

227
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 4: a computer for temporary storage of data that's actually being

228
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 4: used in the moment.

229
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,360
Speaker 3: They all work together, and that's right. What's nuts about

230
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 3: it too, is if you think about, let's blow the

231
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,600
Speaker 3: dust off our old taco bell analogy, from these basic ingredients,

232
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 3: you can make a panopoly of things that appear to

233
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 3: be very different items on the menu, right, Taco Bell

234
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 3: is like famous for having what four to five ingredients

235
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 3: and they'll sell you thirty things. That's kind of how

236
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:44,080
Speaker 3: chips work.

237
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 2: But in the end, isn't it weird? And I'm not

238
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,559
Speaker 2: high to think that all of this, all of the information,

239
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:57,679
Speaker 2: it's just an electrical current getting taken in different directions

240
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,079
Speaker 2: and hitting different things at different at times. In it

241
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 2: all micro level, it becomes out of voices in your ears. Yeah,

242
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 2: it becomes your favorite television show on Max or whatever, like.

243
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 3: Uh, well, the human brain is that too.

244
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 4: I'm looking at a very simple piece of electronics right

245
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 4: next to me. That's a monophonic synthesizer that is just

246
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 4: signal flowing electricity that is filtered and boosted and the

247
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,040
Speaker 4: different things that happened to it, and it makes a sound.

248
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 4: And that is literally a sound that we hear that

249
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 4: is just vibrations carried on the air, you know, I mean, yes, sorry, Matt,

250
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 4: it is mind blowing.

251
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,680
Speaker 3: Also, I gotta say on a soft folks, fellow conspiracy realist,

252
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 3: and also Paul, because Paul, you're listening to along here,

253
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 3: it might sound a little weird that we all three

254
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 3: took a moment to say we're not high as individuals.

255
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 3: But that's just because this stuff is so my blowing

256
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,640
Speaker 3: when you think about it, it's ubiquitous, it's everywhere, it's

257
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 3: it breaks your head, right, So we know this evolution

258
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 3: is nuts. If you are a fellow nerd of a

259
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 3: certain generation, your first experience with semiconductors may have come

260
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 3: in the form of pocket calculators. Remember those old Texas

261
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 3: instruments things we all had to buy. What a monopoly,

262
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,160
Speaker 3: that was a grift t I.

263
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,800
Speaker 4: Didn't learn until pretty recently how important Texas Instruments was

264
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 4: in the whole personal computer race. You know, there's a

265
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 4: really great show called Halt and Catch Fire that's sort

266
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 4: of like a fictionalized version of like the race for

267
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 4: like the PC and the laptop and stuff, and parts

268
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 4: of it are real. And one part of it that's

269
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 4: real is the whole inclusion of Texas instruments. And they

270
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 4: called it the Silicon Prairie, that area of Texas that

271
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 4: was really big in this stuff, really really fascinating. Even

272
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 4: before like you know, Silicon Valley became a thing, Texas

273
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 4: was kind of like the grounds zero for a lot

274
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 4: of this this this research and development.

275
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we've already clocked the substance silicon coming up

276
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 3: again and again really important. We're going somewhere with this, folks.

277
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 3: Those those pocket calculators like you mentioned that, like the

278
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 3: t I eighty fives and so on, eighty three fours.

279
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:26,000
Speaker 4: Eighty three on Snake, drug Wars, Drug Wars, Drug Wars.

280
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 4: It was just a text based like choose your own

281
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 4: adventure game, that's all it was. And you got to

282
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 4: be a drug kingpin. And I remember it was the

283
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 4: first time I saw the word ludes and I was like,

284
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 4: what is what are lads? I don't know what this.

285
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 3: I also remember the old eight eight five trick, you

286
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 3: know it was it was boobs take that straight spare.

287
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,400
Speaker 3: So those things only had a few thousand transistors per chips,

288
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 3: still very impressive for us. But now the largest ones

289
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 3: are going to have more than fifty billion transistors pushing

290
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 3: to the A. Jemore's laws and you know, naturally. Okay,

291
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 3: So this is one of the most important technologies in

292
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 3: modern civilization. Who makes them? Uh, this is where it

293
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 3: gets interesting. They're made at these compounds called foundaries. Back

294
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 3: in two thousand, about twenty three years ago, there was

295
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,479
Speaker 3: something like twenty three companies that were doing this to

296
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 3: some degree. As of twenty twenty one, there were only

297
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 3: three major players in the game. As as the free

298
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,159
Speaker 3: market dictates, they ate their own right, and there were

299
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 3: fewer and fewer competitors. The three big the three big boys,

300
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 3: the three chunkers in the field are Intel, you who

301
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:46,959
Speaker 3: go US, Samsung Yeah, out of Korea, and then something

302
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 3: called Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company or TSMC. This is the

303
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,200
Speaker 3: Kobe Bryant of the game.

304
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,159
Speaker 4: By fun interesting, Yeah, but that one sort of seems

305
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 4: to be I don't know, we'll get there if it's

306
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 4: changed names bad. I don't know that as a household

307
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 4: name like I do Intel. I do think it's funny

308
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 4: too or interesting that the term foundry, like that's a

309
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 4: really old term for like a place where you would

310
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,959
Speaker 4: pour metal molten steel and things and like, you know,

311
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 4: make goods out of liquid metal, a foundry like picture

312
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,199
Speaker 4: where the terminator gets lowered into the lava at the

313
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 4: end of T two spoiler alert for a twenty five

314
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 4: year old movie.

315
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: Well, Well, let's let's stays up. Let's talk about that

316
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 2: one and the Taiwan sent me to conductor Manufacturing company.

317
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 2: It's in Taiwan and they make what is it, it's

318
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 2: over half of all the chips manufactured in the world, right.

319
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,600
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, yeah, round about fifty four percent currently. And additionally,

320
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,879
Speaker 3: out of all the chips they make, and out of

321
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,119
Speaker 3: all the chips in the world, TSMC makes the best ones,

322
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,640
Speaker 3: the most sophisticated ones. When we're talking about the new

323
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,879
Speaker 3: ones with fifty billion switches or transistors, those are coming

324
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 3: from Taiwan. And there are other players in the game.

325
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 3: But at present, if this one company goes under or

326
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,680
Speaker 3: its operations are disrupted for any amount of time for

327
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,919
Speaker 3: any reason, the world as you know it, folks, is

328
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 3: going to run into a lot of problems very very quickly.

329
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:25,159
Speaker 3: So okay, you know, diversification is good in any field,

330
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 3: but sometimes you can't have it right. Sometimes you have

331
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,359
Speaker 3: to live with a reality. And if Taiwan is indeed

332
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 3: the holy Grail or the holy font for this technology,

333
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 3: then I guess humans have to take care of Taiwan.

334
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 3: But that's kind of complicated because it turns out Taiwan

335
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 3: is a little bit more than a dope archipelago of

336
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 3: sci fi technology.

337
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's also a very let's say important and

338
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,880
Speaker 2: strategic geopolitical location. How about we call it that? And

339
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 2: I mean really think about that. We're not joking when

340
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: we say most things now that you can purchase that

341
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 2: are above bargain basement, like the lowest level version of

342
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 2: a product, have a chip in it just as a standard.

343
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: And they are making fifty four percent of those chips

344
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 2: that go in all of the things. It's not an

345
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,199
Speaker 2: Internet of things. It's a world of internet things.

346
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 3: And if you ask any geopolitics wonk, any economist, any warhawk.

347
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 3: You know, even if you get the buttoned up alphabet

348
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 3: boys about three drinks in and you ask them what

349
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 3: will lead to World War three, They're going to have

350
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 3: a short list of things, and it's going to be

351
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 3: stuff like climate refugees. It's gonna be stuff like nuclear accountability,

352
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 3: potable water, and Taiwan. Because if things go if things

353
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 3: go just a little bit wrong, Taiwan is going to

354
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 3: be a huge problem. What do we mean, We'll tell

355
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 3: you after a word from our sponsors. Here's where it

356
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 3: gets crazy. A war for chips. Could World War three

357
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 3: break out over Taiwat? The answer, unfortunately is yeah, man.

358
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's like a devil's bargain, right, you know,

359
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 4: you you make all this progress, you know, surrounding this

360
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 4: miraculous material that has a shelf life. I guess there's

361
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 4: a finite amount of the stuff and it's not just

362
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 4: available anywhere, and you know, you basically hang your entire

363
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 4: existence on this substance, on this material, and then there

364
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 4: becomes it becomes the most talking about chips. It's a

365
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 4: bargaining chip. It becomes the most outrageous bargaining chip you

366
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 4: could possibly imagine.

367
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's in. The scary part is even if you

368
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 3: don't hear about it often, if you're not in the

369
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: tech sector or the war sector, there is already a

370
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 3: war going on. It's a cold war for now as

371
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 3: we record, the West is throwing economic sanctions, China's throwing

372
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 3: economic sanctions. A lot of people are making big speeches, imposturing.

373
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 3: They're doing trade freezes that are specifically targeting the supply

374
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,479
Speaker 3: chain of semiconductors. Stuff that's so specific it would sound weird,

375
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 3: like why is the US terrified that China is clamping

376
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 3: down on things like gallium? When's the last time you

377
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 3: were walking down the street and you thought, I wonder

378
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 3: how Gallium's doing or Germanium and.

379
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 4: Ben I made the comment earlier that TSMC wasn't like

380
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 4: a household name to me, you know, and I think

381
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 4: that's true. But this still is This is the important,

382
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 4: you know, component of this converse is that company and

383
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 4: the fact that they're not a household name is interesting.

384
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

385
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 3: They're selling. Yeah, you're not gonna you're not going to

386
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: buy their high end chips as an individual. You're going

387
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: to buy stuff from companies like Apple that have bought

388
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: chips from that company. They supply other businesses and governments

389
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 3: and militaries. I mean it sounds alarmist, right, but in

390
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 3: recent years, the idea of a chip war has become

391
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 3: a big, big concern in the US, Like people stay

392
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 3: awake at night worried about this because the PRC has

393
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 3: a really fraught, cartoonishly tense relationship with Taiwan and they

394
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 3: are super duper sensitive about it. Like even on this

395
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 3: little podcast, this whole free podcast, if if you're not

396
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: diplomatic when you talk about Taiwan, it can spell problems

397
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 3: for you in customs in MAINSTREAMCHI, like to the point

398
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 3: where they might let you in, like getting out becomes

399
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 3: a conversation that you don't want to have. It's tough.

400
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 3: I mean, like, Okay, a war could break out at

401
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 3: any given moment over any given thing. That's just the reality.

402
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: Human civilization is a house of cards. But this thing,

403
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 3: these chips, because the world is so dependent upon them,

404
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 3: they may be the proverbial feather on the camel's back.

405
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 3: The war might go hot because of this resource. Dude, Like,

406
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 3: I had no idea speaking of TSMC, I had no

407
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 3: idea just how important they are to the nation of Taiwan.

408
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 3: The street name for TSMC is Sacred Mountain. And it's

409
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 3: such a big deal that if you work for this

410
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: company you can apply to be exempted from military training

411
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 3: even if there's a war going on. You can say

412
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 3: I work for the chip company though, and they're like, oh,

413
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 3: crap man, what are you doing here? Get back to

414
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 3: the foundry make more chips.

415
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it makes sense. If you're a war you

416
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: gotta make war stuff, and war stuff needs to be smart.

417
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 2: And if you don't have the chips, then you don't

418
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: got the war stuff.

419
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: Right, which I think is the motto of t SMC. Right,

420
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 3: that's there, yep, that's like they're Intel bump.

421
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: Yep.

422
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 3: So, I guess we need to talk a little bit

423
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: about this situation between China and Taiwan. Why is it

424
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: so tense? Why why is it so I think it's

425
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 3: fair to say it can seem cartoonish to outsiders.

426
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've always had a sort of vague grasp on this,

427
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 4: so I'm super interested in getting a little more into

428
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 4: the details of the history there.

429
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 2: Well, look, I'll break down just what I think I know,

430
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: and then Ben you swoop in.

431
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: We'll three blind mice. Because we're not Taiwanese nor Chinese

432
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: and oh oh sorry, we are not Chinese, is what

433
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 3: we should say, yep.

434
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 2: Because the country of China, the People's Republic of China,

435
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: has for a long time considered Taiwan just to be China,

436
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: and with the One China policy, everything that is China

437
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: is China, and that is it, end of sentence. So

438
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: Taiwan is China. It is a part of China's apps,

439
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: right except yeah, but the human beings that actually run

440
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: Taiwan disagree with that sentiment. Is that roughly what Kina?

441
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, now that that's and that's the right way to

442
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: put it. So you'll hear you'll hear it called Taiwan China,

443
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 3: Taiwan Province of China, or Taipei China. It dates back

444
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: to nineteen forty nine. There were there were two political

445
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: entities with the name China. They both laid claim to

446
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 3: the entirety of the land. The one uh the PRC,

447
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 3: the People's Republic of China. That's usually what folks in

448
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: the West mean when they say China. It's mainland China.

449
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: And then on Taiwan there was the Republic of China

450
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 3: or ROC, which is a very bad thing to say,

451
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: don't you know. Don't bring that up in Beijing, even

452
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: if you think you're chilling and everyone's cool at the

453
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: karaoke spot. Because of that split, the PRC, like like

454
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 3: you got, Like you said, the PRC considers Taiwan one

455
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 3: hundred percent part of its country, the way that the

456
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: US considers Hawaii one hundred percent part of the US.

457
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 3: And like you said, a lot of people in Taiwan

458
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: do not agree with that. And if if this was

459
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 3: not a pot of real possible cause for World War III,

460
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 3: it would be hilarious. The whole like Vonnegut Joseph Heller

461
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: esque Catch twenty two ness of it every single country

462
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 3: on the planet pretty much avoids talking about this issue.

463
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 3: Sometimes a Western politician will show their ass a little

464
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 3: bit and then they immediately step it back because China

465
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: does not play with this. You can even see this

466
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 3: is so weird to me. You can even see celebrities

467
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: totally not politicians, totally not diplomats or anything, just celebrities,

468
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 3: your favorite athletes and movie stars screwing up having a

469
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 3: slight accidental misspeak and apologizing to the world for daring

470
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: to refer to Taiwan as some sort of independent country

471
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 3: or entity. We have a clip of John Cena doing it.

472
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: We can play that, right, can.

473
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: We play this? Is he speaking in Mandarin?

474
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, let's play it. Who knew? Okay, we're playing at.

475
00:28:51,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 5: The Clipina will be Shu shu Shanzaio will handul.

476
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: So for anybody not speaking Mandarin, what John Cena is

477
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: doing here, it actually not terrible. Mandarin is apologizing to

478
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: the world, to the people in government of China uh

479
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: for accidentally referring to Taiwan as a country. And this

480
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: is not the only example of this. There are other

481
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: celebrities who have done the same thing. And why is

482
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: that important to play nice? With this government if you

483
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: are a celebrity or public figure, well, it's because it's

484
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 3: one of the biggest growing consumer markets on the planet.

485
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 3: That's why your favorite film studios are jumping through their

486
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: butts to get to get the Chinese government's permission to

487
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 3: show their films. Right, that's why I like in Uh,

488
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 3: I'm kind of alone in this, but I loved the

489
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 3: Pacific Rim films. Remember Giant, Oh they're good giant robots. Yeah,

490
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: thanks man, Yeah, I loved them. And you can really

491
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: tell that they that the studios wanted the approval of

492
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: the Chinese government in the second Pacific Rim film, because

493
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: there's this whole thing about Charlie Day not being able

494
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 3: to speak Mandarin but trying. There there's the insertion of

495
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 3: this whole Chinese government subplot as like the good guys

496
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 3: who actually saved the world. There's there's a lot of

497
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: play here. And the main thing is, no matter how

498
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: powerful you are as a government or as a company,

499
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: or even as a billionaire, you just don't talk about

500
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: the Taiwan thing. You just don't bring it up. It's

501
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: like if you're at your friend's house and you see

502
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: them yell at their kids. You just don't comment on it.

503
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: Well, there's even been at least one UN resolution that

504
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: like tried to set this in stone, or maybe China

505
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: tried to set it in stone through the UN.

506
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: Because they've got because China, as a result of World

507
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: War Two being on the winning side, China is one

508
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: of the few countries with a veto power, right, And

509
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 3: the United Nations had this white paper that came out

510
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 3: and they were the legal opinion that Taiwan is a

511
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: province of China with absolutely no separate status, and China

512
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 3: took that and ran with it. So our stage is set.

513
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: One of the most important technologies, probably the most important

514
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: technology in the modern world, is manufactured in a ticking

515
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: time bomb of an island. Right, the situation in Taiwan

516
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: is full stop, no caveats. It is unsustainable. It is

517
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: double plus on good. It's like if all the world's

518
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: important computers were made on a glacier and the glacier

519
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: was melting.

520
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: Ask my question though, is like, is it about their

521
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 4: access to the material? Is it about their expertise and

522
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 4: manufacturing the product? Like why do they have such a

523
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 4: monopoly on it? Like why isn't it more diversified?

524
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: The latter, it's it's their expertise in manufacturing the materials

525
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: that are used to make this stuff that goes to Taiwan.

526
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: But they don't. You're not going to see a bunch

527
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: of like gallium, germanium and silicon mines on Taiwan, but

528
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: they have.

529
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's proprietary. Like so when we get advances

530
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 4: in the chip, it's because they figured it out or what.

531
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just really really difficult to make things with

532
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 3: that level of precision.

533
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't forget there are people at Intel and

534
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: you know all these other places that do manufactu facture chips,

535
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: just on a much smaller scale. They are also attempting

536
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: to make innovations, right, both in materials and in I

537
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: guess technique. Yeah, but this whole thing really does and

538
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: we've talked about this before, but it really does give

539
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: a perfect explanation for the country of China's practices of

540
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: resource extraction, specifically in Africa, of like where the materials

541
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: are coming from and where they are going.

542
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: And credit where it's due. A lot of companies that

543
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: are not in Taiwan, right, like companies in the Netherlands,

544
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 3: in Japan and the US, they have the design know how.

545
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 3: So the boffins over at Intel can design a new

546
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: chip and they can have that conceptual breakthrough, but for

547
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: it to be manufactured, it is overwhelmingly likely it will

548
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 3: have to be manufactured in Taiwan. That's the choke point,

549
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 3: and it's a choke point. It comes in a bad time.

550
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 3: The US and China are Oh, they're not friends. They're

551
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: not friends. There are two people in a crowded restaurant

552
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 3: who are increasingly side eyeing each other, and they're making

553
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: these little moves that they can't really get in trouble

554
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 3: for yet. It's a huge technological arms race, and US

555
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 3: companies have a big, big dilemma. They need China, they

556
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 3: need it.

557
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 4: But China needs the companies too. I mean, we're a

558
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 4: big client. You know, the money is coming from these

559
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 4: companies using their products. So it is it's you're right,

560
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 4: it's like this kind of like mannered sort of Cold War,

561
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 4: you know, where everyone's just sort of like, let's not

562
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 4: rock the boat too much. We don't have to like

563
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 4: each other, but we also have to figure out how

564
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 4: to keep doing business.

565
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, well said, it's.

566
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: Kind of weird. Okay, So when I think about it,

567
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: and I may be way off here. I don't have

568
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: stats or anything, but it feels as though the US

569
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: companies like your apples and well, I guess Samsung is

570
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 2: not a US company, but your apples and the US

571
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 2: markets for products being produced by those companies is has

572
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: been huge historically, right, lots of that. But it's not

573
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: as though it's a growing market, right, because the US

574
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: has a certain number of people who are going to

575
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: buy let's say, a cell phone at a certain rate,

576
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: you know, every couple of years or something. You've got

577
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, computers and cars and all these other things,

578
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: like major things, even appliances that use these chips. There's

579
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: you've got to set rate pretty much with a population

580
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: that is mildly growing but not enough that it's you know,

581
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: gonna change the world of the number of chips you

582
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: need to manufacture for them. But if you've got a

583
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: well again, correct me if I'm wrong here, But it

584
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: feels like the country of China with a population it has,

585
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: country of like India and the population it has, and

586
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: as the number of people buying new products increases in

587
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: those countries, that was that's probably one of the biggest

588
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: places that they're concerned about when it comes to new manufacturing.

589
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, very well. Put Matt, I would agree with that,

590
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: because if you want to make money from the Western perspective,

591
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 3: you need to be selling things in India and in China.

592
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: You know, they've got this exploding middle class. There's more

593
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 3: money to burn than there was historically, and they will

594
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 3: they will have that jump in consumption. The US and

595
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 3: a lot of other countries in a similar boat. Their

596
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: populations are undergoing a graying out right, even with immigration,

597
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 3: things are leveling off. The most apparent example would, of course,

598
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 3: be the nation of Japan, right, which is going to

599
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 3: have a lot of problems on the way. China may

600
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 3: encounter some of those same demographic challenges as the bill

601
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: of the one child policy comes due in future generations

602
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 3: and all the femicide it led to infanticide of women.

603
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 3: But right now China does need the US. The question

604
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: is for how long will they need the US as

605
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 3: their own domestic market grows. They have increasingly of the

606
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 3: PRC has increasingly put in strict rules about how foreign

607
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: companies can operate in their territory, and this leads to

608
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 3: sky high rates of industrial espionage. At least if you

609
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 3: listen to every government except for the government of China.

610
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 4: And this isn't new, Like I may have mentioned this before,

611
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 4: but like there's a synthesizer that I have that's made

612
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 4: by a Japanese company called Roland, and the chips on

613
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 4: it that are like they're notorious for going bad and

614
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 4: you have to prepare them replace them. But the reason

615
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 4: they go bad is because they have this kind of

616
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 4: like coating on the top of them, like surrounding them,

617
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 4: covering the chip part where you can actually see, you know,

618
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 4: the shapes we're talking about, or those you know whatever,

619
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 4: like the path or whatever. They are manufactured with those

620
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 4: on it. Then it have to in order to repair them,

621
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 4: you have to soak them in acetone for like a

622
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 4: day and then it dissolves it. But the reason for

623
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 4: that is to prevent industrial espionage, because if you have

624
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: someone yeah, looking at them coming down the line, they

625
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 4: can't take a picture of what the circuit looks like

626
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 4: because it's covered in this kind of plasticy material. But

627
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 4: then that also causes it to trap moisture, and over time,

628
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 4: these chips burn out, so they're like a notoriously faulty part.

629
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 4: And now there are companies that make kind of clone

630
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 4: versions of them, because you know, once you have it,

631
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 4: you can take it off and do it. But when

632
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 4: this was a new product, they didn't want anybody to

633
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 4: steal it from.

634
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: Them, right. And I would to say before you get

635
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 3: to this next part, I would to say the following,

636
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 3: not just because because I want things to go smoothly

637
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 3: and mainland customs, but because it is true, China is

638
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: a font of innovation. China makes a ton of chips

639
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 3: domestically on their own. They're just not the sophisticated chips right.

640
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 3: Mainland China makes them. Taiwan, of course, makes the world's

641
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: best chips. So there is innovation happening in China. There's

642
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: scads and scats of it. But the US government in

643
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: US companies in particular, feel they have uncovered a pattern,

644
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: a modus operandi. They what they see is that they

645
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 3: want to do Like let's say you're a car company

646
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 3: and you want to start a factory in China, right

647
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 3: because it's cheaper to manufacture some parts there. You will

648
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 3: be required to partner with Chinese firms, will be required

649
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 3: to hire Chinese nationals in certain key positions. And according

650
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 3: to these critics the entire time these other companies were

651
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 3: partnered with and these employees, they are scooping up all

652
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 3: the secret sauce, the manufacturing techniques, the proprietary strategies, all

653
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 3: that junk, and then when they have extracted that intellectual resource,

654
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 3: there we go. Then done. You know, you're an empty

655
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 3: juice box. So boom, boom, drink your milkshake, right, they

656
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: drink your milkshake.

657
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 4: Yes, So, so I'm trying to understand fully the relationship

658
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 4: between China and Taiwan. So does China have unilateral control

659
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 4: over Taiwan? You say that Taiwan disagrees, but is China

660
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 4: still basically top dog or is there a dispute even

661
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 4: in that And is that the tipping point that's on

662
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 4: the edge of that particular dispute.

663
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 3: It's funny, it's funny. I'm looking at Matt's face because

664
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 3: he's going, I could read your mind a little bit, Matt.

665
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: Matt's like, how are we going to handle this one?

666
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: It's a great question, It's a really good question.

667
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 2: It's just difficult to answer.

668
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because if you it depends upon whom you ask, Right,

669
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 3: if you ask some politicians in Taiwan then they will

670
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 3: say they'll give you probably one of three answers, depending

671
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 3: on their ideology. They'll say either one, Yes, Taiwan is

672
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 3: one hundred percent part of China, the way Alabama is

673
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 3: one hundred percent part of the US. Two they'll say

674
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 3: we're going for a kind of one country or one

675
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: party two systems kind of approach. So similar to how

676
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: Macau and Hong Kong have cultural differences, but there's still

677
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 3: everybody admits they're part of China. Hong Kong was British

678
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: into like nineteen ninety nine, but now it's officially Chinese.

679
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 3: Or the third one, the hot one, the one that

680
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: gets those Paul Titians in trouble. They will say, we

681
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: are fighting for Taiwanese independence, and the government of China

682
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: looks at that like as those words, yeah, as though

683
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: somebody in the government of Alabama was going, well, the

684
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 3: Kingdom of Alabama has always been.

685
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 4: Like secessionism basically yes, right, but to the outside perspective,

686
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 4: especially since China isn't exactly forthcoming with this kind of information,

687
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 4: it's sort of a black box, right, like uh yeah, yeah, okay,

688
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 4: so I'm not alone in this confusion.

689
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 3: Making sure dude, No, you're not alone. You are you

690
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 3: are with We are together on this, as is the

691
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: majority of the world. There's some awkward conversations at the

692
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 3: United Nations, you know what I mean. It's on the

693
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: level of trying to solve for stability in the Middle East.

694
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 3: That's how sensitive this is. That's what I was thinking. Yeah,

695
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 3: you're absolutely right, dude. So there was something came out

696
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 3: recently that I think everybody should check out. It was

697
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 3: a CNBC documentary called China's Corporate Spy War, and it's

698
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: an investigation into these US allegations. I keep saying us

699
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 3: because there are main rivals in this exploration, but making

700
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 3: a mistake. A lot of European countries feel the same way.

701
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 3: And of course Korea and Japan and China will never

702
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 3: get along unless like Aliens Land, they are not going

703
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 3: to be friends. So in China's Corporate Spywarp, this is

704
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 3: about an FBI sting operation. Do you hear about this one?

705
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 3: This surprised me.

706
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about this, but we can give you,

707
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: I guess a quote on a write up of this.

708
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: Ben I think that's what we're looking at right. This

709
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: is CNBC talking about it.

710
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's about a Chinese Ministry of State Security officer

711
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 3: named Shu yan Jun who turned out to be a spy.

712
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 3: And he wasn't spying on the US government. He was

713
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 3: spying on US companies.

714
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and important companies with important technology like ge, Boeing

715
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: and Honeywell, here.

716
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 4: Comes the quote. In twenty seventeen, Shoe yan Jun pursued

717
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 4: an engineer at GE Aviation who had valuable knowledge of

718
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 4: the company's jet engine composite fan blade technology. Closing as

719
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 4: an academic official and using a fake name, Shoe was

720
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 4: introduced to the GE engineer, who was visiting Nanjing, China,

721
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 4: to give a speech at a prestigious university. Shue began

722
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 4: a pressure campaign to get the engineer, who had family

723
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 4: in China, to reveal more and more information about the

724
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 4: engine tech the Chinese government had targeted.

725
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: Hey, it's me, your friend Johnny last named blue jeans.

726
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: Hello, fellow kids, it is I tell me of your

727
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 4: skateboard tricks.

728
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 3: Really tell you about the engine technology. That's a shame,

729
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: because I can tell you your grandmother's home address.

730
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 4: That's right, be a shame if something happened to me me.

731
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 2: It sounds like a snoozefecter. You're talking about like composite

732
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 2: fan blades, technology and all this stuff, But it harkens

733
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: back to one of my favorite songs. Do you guys

734
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: remember down roaddeo from Rage Against the Machine? Yes, well, yeah,

735
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: I guess we'll give you a small quote from one

736
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: of the verses here if I'm gonna quote it correctly,

737
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: let's see. Let's okay, I found it here. It's a

738
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: thousand years they had the tools, we should be taking them.

739
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 2: F the g ride. I want the machines that are

740
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 2: making them right. So that's what we're talking about.

741
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 4: That lyric that's good, Yeah.

742
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: But that's exactly what we're talking about. But China is

743
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: attempting to get the sees, the means of production right,

744
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: the keys to production up.

745
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and I love I love a good, I

746
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 3: love a good Rage Against the Machine.

747
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 4: That is one of the bands of that era. I

748
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 4: guess that you would call rap rock or whatever that

749
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 4: actually holds up because they were truly hip hop, like

750
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 4: truly you know, Zach de la Rocha, incredible lyricist, Tom Morello,

751
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 4: absolutely fabulous guitarist, and so many of those other bands

752
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 4: that kind of came after them boo. But Rage holds up.

753
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Rage holds up. They gotta they've got a great

754
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 3: joint with Run the Jewels. Zach Del is on that. Anyway,

755
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 3: they're not gonna send us camping like they did my

756
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 3: Man for Hampton. Oh, Rage is so good anyway, Yes,

757
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 3: that and that's that's such astute point, Matt. That's a

758
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 3: beautiful point, because the idea is about empowerment. Right. Well,

759
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 3: let's let's get to the Chinese perspective in just a second.

760
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: In the case of this documentary, here's what the FBI did.

761
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 3: The FBI alerted General Electric and they said, you know,

762
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 3: you're compromised. There's a fox in the henhouse, right, there's

763
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: a fly in the ointment. And so they had this

764
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 3: really weird meeting and I think it was Cincinnati with

765
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: the engineer and they confronted him and they offered him

766
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: the age old classic choice. They said, you can face

767
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 3: the legal consequences of breaking numerous laws, or you can

768
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 3: keep doing what you're doing and just work for.

769
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 2: Us, which I guess just needs a choice. Alert the

770
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: FBI of what information you're sharing and what instructions you're getting,

771
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 2: like that's literally it.

772
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 3: And then the and then in turn, the FBI will

773
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 3: The way that you nail that, the way this stuff

774
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: works is you will report upon your activities, so you

775
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 3: give visibility right into what the enemy forces are asking for,

776
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 3: what they're prioritizing, compositive fan blades, et cetera. And then

777
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 3: as it gets a little more complicated, as you get

778
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: a little more switch in your chips of subterfuge, then

779
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 3: you'll start feeding them fake information. And the FBI, I'll

780
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: give you, will give you either, they'll give you. Okay,

781
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: I don't want to go too deep into this, but

782
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: this is kind of interesting. It's similar to how Hollywood

783
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: studios will control for script leaks. They'll they'll give crew

784
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: and cast different copies of a script with maybe certain

785
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 3: lines tweaked or changed, certain watermarking things Marvel does this,

786
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: or the mouse does this, and so they'll keep a

787
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 3: record of that, and then if any of it pops

788
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 3: up in the wild, they'll know exactly how to trace

789
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 3: sort of the chain of custody, very very smart.

790
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: Then they'll waterboard those jokers.

791
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 4: We know you leaked the script.

792
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 3: Tell us what you know.

793
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 2: Take the water.

794
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 3: Perfect perfect and if you get that reference right in,

795
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: because it'll make our it'll make our evening.

796
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: Perfect.

797
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 3: No, surely not. They're bigger, mister Fry if we look

798
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: at the Chinese perspective. Just to be fair, the government

799
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 3: of China has replied to this in various ways, specifically

800
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 3: to this case we mentioned from twenty seventeen and to

801
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 3: the idea of intellectual espionage in general, and they say

802
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: it's pretty much cenophobic bullet. Their embassy said quote, the

803
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: Chinese government has never participated in or supported anyone in

804
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 3: any form in stealing commercial secrets. Some people and institutions

805
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 3: in the US have been making false accusations. We asked

806
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 3: the US side to handle the case without bias and

807
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 3: in accordance with the law and protect the lawful rights

808
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: and interests of Chinese citizens. Okay, totally sounds good, sounds

809
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 3: like real disclosure.

810
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 4: I did not know the words cenophobic until.

811
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 3: Just now, not xenophobic, which.

812
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 4: Is a cenophobic.

813
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah is new.

814
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 4: This is new to me. Yes, means obviously anti Chinese

815
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 4: sentiments or but more bigger than that, like you know,

816
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 4: on some kind of level of racism, right, Like I mean,

817
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 4: it's the idea of like being anti Semitic Chinese.

818
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the right idea.

819
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: All right, guys, let's take a quick break here, word

820
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 2: from our sponsor and come back with I guess more

821
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: of the US perspective on this whole situation.

822
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: USA, USA broud to be all right. So the US

823
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: perspective is this, Washington has two big concerns. First, they

824
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 3: are terrified that the Chinese government will catch up to

825
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 3: the US military or surpass it in key aspects, and

826
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 3: thanks to what's called asymmetrical warfare, that is a valid concern.

827
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 3: And secondly, they're very worried about some insult to injury.

828
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 3: They think that they think that China may leverage US

829
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 3: technology to do that. So crib the secrets, steal the research,

830
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 3: and then you're starting on third base for the next innovation. Right,

831
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 3: you can do what's called technological leap frogging. And that's

832
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 3: because President Jijinping said, look, China needs to be a

833
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 3: world class military by twenty forty nine. They're well on

834
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 3: the way. A big part of that push involves the whoop. Sorry,

835
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 3: I've got a lamp on a really JANKI hotel lamp.

836
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: I've got lamps on lamps. Keep that part in all right, Sorry,

837
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: we're on the road. But okay, so a big part

838
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 3: of them push involves developing a ton of miss weapons,

839
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: hypersonic missiles, using machine learning or you know, quote unquote

840
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 3: AI for all sorts of stuff, including cyber warfare and

841
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 3: so on. For those of us playing along at home

842
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 3: to Matt's earlier point, de Noel's earlier point, what do

843
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 3: all of those things need? Chip chips, delicious chips, the chips.

844
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: They need the chips, and China can't make the most

845
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 3: advanced ones. Yet outside of Taiwan, no one can really

846
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: make these super advanced semiconductors. So China has to play

847
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 3: the international trade game. The US has to play the

848
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 3: international trade game, and they have to make nice. It's

849
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 3: part of the reason they don't talk too much trash

850
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 3: about Taiwan and China, because if they do, and if

851
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 3: China decides to shut down the flow of the semiconductor's

852
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 3: spice milange, then it is just it's going to be

853
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 3: a storm. I know I'm cursing a lot in this one,

854
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 3: but we can't overemphasize that. And the US wants to

855
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: block all the other stuff. China needs to make a

856
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 3: pitchiffan yes, perfect when the chip hits the fan. The

857
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: Biden administration, current US President Joe Biden. In October of

858
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 3: last year, they put in they ratcheted up the trade war,

859
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: and they said, look, we're not going to allow you

860
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 3: to buy stuff with US origins. If you are a

861
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 3: US based business, if you want to do business in

862
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: the US, then you can't sell China certain things. And

863
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: they went to the Netherlands, they went to Japan. Both

864
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 3: countries have some pretty pretty mission critical like manufacturing processes

865
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 3: that are part of the semiconductor supply chain. And they

866
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: got Japan and the Netherlands to agree. China is pretty pissed.

867
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 3: They're pretty pissed about it.

868
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. President she in particular as accused the United States

869
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 4: of waging a Cold War style series of containment strategies, right,

870
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 4: And he's not wrong, you know, But that's also that

871
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 4: it's one of the tools in the in the tool belt, right.

872
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 4: I mean, something has to be done, wouldn't he say, Ben,

873
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 4: I mean, this isn't an outright aggressive move. This is

874
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 4: something that's like thinking ahead and trying to keep things

875
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 4: from just ballooning out of control with this relationship, right,

876
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 4: sort of like drawing a line in the sand. I

877
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 4: don't know.

878
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's so weird to me because it's coming on

879
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 2: the tales of news you've probably read about specifically about

880
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: the US if you're in the US, about specific Chinese companies.

881
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 2: We're not allowed to do business with any anymore. We're

882
00:54:54,960 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: not allowed to have their software on our hardware, talk

883
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 2: to anyone. We're not allowed to use their hardware to

884
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: access you know, any networks. I mean, it's again, these

885
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: are like but it's almost like soft rules that are

886
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: coming forward or bands. And it's very strange because the

887
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 2: same thing is happening on the other side, right, m hmm.

888
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an escalating tit for tat. People are increasing

889
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 3: or sorry, these governments are increasingly trying to shut down

890
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 3: points of access for everything you need to make chips

891
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 3: and earlier this year, in response to US actions, China said, look, Raitheon,

892
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:43,959
Speaker 3: lockeed Martin, they're US companies, so TUPAC style, they said,

893
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 3: you and anyone who rides with you, so right.

894
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 4: Doesn't if Raitheons sound like a Star Wars monster, I

895
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 4: mean it really always.

896
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 3: Hey, we talked about it too, like defense industries, those

897
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 3: companies have a weird habit of picking kind of agro names.

898
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 4: I know it's true, wouldn't you say that at this point,

899
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 4: like our governments, you know, between China and America and

900
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 4: in the US, are like pretty openly distrustful and suspicious

901
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 4: of one another. I mean, it's it's it's gotten to

902
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 4: the point where they're barely even trying to hide it anymore.

903
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well also, I mean that's why it's important to

904
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 3: understand both perspectives, because they're raising valid points, even though

905
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 3: they're both intensely nationalistic. It's their job. If you're a

906
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 3: politician for a country, you need you're trying to rep

907
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 3: your country's interest if you're doing if you're doing your

908
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 3: job correctly. However, one of the issues is that China

909
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,240
Speaker 3: as a culture has a very long memory the West

910
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 3: has committed atrocities in China. The Opium Wars were entirely

911
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 3: to force the people of China into becoming a nation

912
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 3: of drug addicts. That's something that you know, if you

913
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 3: if you're in the Chinese government, you're not going to

914
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 3: forget that, and you should not. So, of course they

915
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 3: don't trust each other. For a lot of these folks,

916
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 3: the Cold War never ended. It's very much a zero

917
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 3: sum game. And the Chinese Ministry of Commerce to that

918
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 3: point about resource extraction. They just clamped down on gallium

919
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 3: and germanium, these two elements that you need to make

920
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 3: computer chips, fiber optics, solar cells, et cetera. Right now,

921
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 3: both sides are still having diplomatic talks. Janet Yellen went

922
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 3: over there. As a matter of fact, Henry Kissinger went

923
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 3: over to China in a surprise visit and he kind

924
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 3: of punked US politician John Kerry when he did it.

925
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 4: Janet's always yelling she needs a pipe down, and just joking.

926
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,959
Speaker 4: That was a dad joke. That was a dad joke.

927
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 4: I liked it. That's cringing with his hand in his

928
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 4: head and just like shaking it.

929
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 3: Matt's hoping his computer doesn't explodecerned. So here's why this

930
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 3: is such a big, big problem. When push comes to shove,

931
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 3: as diplomatic avenues get exhausted, two of the world's most

932
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: powerful militaries make no mistake, they will go hot for

933
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 3: these chips if it's seen as a necessity, and they

934
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 3: do have the capability to rain fire. It's not a

935
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 3: good situation. And that's why war nerds on either side

936
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 3: are already mapping it out. We don't have to get it.

937
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 3: We're running a little long. We don't have to get

938
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 3: into this war game. But if you have time, and

939
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 3: if you're interested, check out check out some work by

940
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 3: a US think tank called Center for New American Security.

941
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 3: There's a great New York Times article about it from

942
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 3: last year. And they imagined this. They said, Okay, what

943
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 3: if three Taiwanese semiconductor foundries, not all of them, three

944
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 3: of them, What if they just failed? What would happen?

945
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 3: How would the world react? First, everything would go sideways. Secondly,

946
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 3: the West would assume that there was some kind of

947
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 3: cyber warfare, possibly from China. This would ramp up tensions

948
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 3: and there would be an international crisis as both countries

949
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 3: attempt to secure their continued supply of chips and get

950
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 3: control over over Taiwan, real physical control. And what they found.

951
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 3: Don't let game fool you. These are world class experts.

952
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 3: What they found was outside of straight up military intervention,

953
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 3: the US couldn't do much on its own. It's years

954
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 3: away from making chips anywhere near the level of Taiwan.

955
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 3: To your point, nol earlier, it might be impossible for

956
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 3: them to catch up at this juncture. And one line

957
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 3: that really stuck out to us about this is, again,

958
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 3: these are the world experts on this whole proper. They said,

959
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 3: the US is more dependent on semiconductors now than it

960
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 3: was on oil from the Middle East during the height

961
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 3: of the fossil fuel glory days.

962
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 4: And you know, given what we were talking about too earlier,

963
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 4: in terms of how quickly this you know, on the time,

964
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 4: on a timeline, compared to oil, our reliance on this

965
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 4: stuff is very is a blip, right, So that's why

966
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 4: it's just not being talked about in the same way

967
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 4: we all understand about our dependence on oil. Everybody understands

968
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 4: that's its own thing, because it's historically just a longer timeline,

969
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 4: and this has been an issue. It feels to me

970
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 4: like your average person on the street has no idea.

971
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 3: What's brewing here. Mm agreed. I mean, and before you know,

972
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 3: you can we can dismiss this as alarmist, right, we

973
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 3: can say, oh, people are doing performative political theater because

974
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 3: they want more money for their think tank or their

975
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 3: research or what have you. But before we dismiss this

976
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 3: as talk, let's all collectively remember what Uncle Sam did

977
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 3: the last time people threatened oil supplies. This is no different.

978
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 3: It's just a little bit more of a complicated supply

979
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 3: chain and hopefully that'll change right now. You know, you

980
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 3: can logically ask at the end of this why hasn't

981
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 3: Taiwan been the subject of an incursion, right of a

982
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 3: real hot war invasion takeover? Look at me, I own

983
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 3: the foundry now kind of situation. It's because of what's

984
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 3: called the silicon shield theory. This industry is so important

985
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 3: to Chinese manufacturers and so important to US consumers that

986
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 3: no one wants to tip the boat just yet. Like

987
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 3: imagine being stuck in an elevator. It's your only way

988
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 3: out of the building and you're there with someone you

989
01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 3: absolutely hate.

990
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 2: Hey, this is kind of a non sequitor, but I'm

991
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 2: just thinking about this episode overall. We love when I'm

992
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 2: looking at the structure, like what we just talked about.

993
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: Do you guys remember the Immortal Technique song Peruvian Cocaine?

994
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 3: Yes, great posse track.

995
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 4: Okay, so I don't know his work very well.

996
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 2: Well, No, it is an amazing track that literally tracks

997
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 2: where cocaine originates in like in this case in Peru,

998
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 2: and then how it travels on its way to the

999
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 2: United States, what entities. Yeah, but it tells that story

1000
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 2: with different characters who are in that supply chain as

1001
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 2: it makes its way through, and it culminates with you know,

1002
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: somebody on the street who's selling it and who ends up,

1003
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 2: you know, getting a long prison sentence for selling cocaine on.

1004
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 3: The streets, probably scared, not prepared to do years like

1005
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 3: Javier Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay, So we need.

1006
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 2: What does a call out directly to you, Immortal or Felipe.

1007
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: We need more of that style song like explainers of

1008
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 2: things like that for just everything. What we need. It's like,

1009
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: let's start printing proving Cocaine as a as a song

1010
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: type on different topics like this one.

1011
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 3: And sugar and chocolate everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything. That's

1012
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 3: that's a great idea. And now, of course immortal technique

1013
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 3: may not be for everyone. But even if you don't

1014
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 3: consider yourself a fan of hip hop, even if you

1015
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: consider yourself even if you have some differences ideologically from

1016
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 3: that artist is a very very talented, very very smart individual,

1017
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 3: and Proving Cocaine in particular is a song that is

1018
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 3: worth your time. It just slaps.

1019
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 4: You might also know Jack White you know, the singer

1020
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 4: for the White Stripes, and he owns a record company,

1021
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 4: he owns record pressing plants, and he named his solo

1022
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 4: tour the supply Chain Tour because it took place kind

1023
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 4: of like when there was all these issues with record

1024
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 4: pressing plants being overwhelmed because of like artists like Adele

1025
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 4: that were, you know, basically using up all of their

1026
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 4: bandwidth to print their you know, massive, you know, huge

1027
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 4: selling records. Because vinyl has become a really popular medium

1028
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 4: now much much. I think it's the highest selling physical

1029
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 4: medium of any anything. CDs are basically non existent anymore.

1030
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 4: But that's a supply chain too, And it used to

1031
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 4: be that, like the plants that made vinyl records were

1032
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 4: all these old legacy plants, and only just now have

1033
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 4: we started having smaller companies build new record pressing plants,

1034
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 4: and that's sort of helping to take the pressure off

1035
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 4: of these legacy ones. But even still they can't build

1036
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 4: them fast enough. And I'm I'm only using this as

1037
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 4: a as a parallel to a much less you know,

1038
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 4: critical with If we don't get our viral records, that's sad.

1039
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 4: I would make me sad, but it's not going to

1040
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 4: cause a war. But these things, the supply chain things

1041
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 4: are are very.

1042
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 2: Real, similar things happening with helium. If we were going

1043
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 2: to talk about superconductors today, which we deny.

1044
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, the helium shortage, though, is very real thing. You

1045
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 3: should think about that every time you go in a

1046
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 3: grocery store and you see those birthday balloons. One day

1047
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 3: they might be something you talk about and later generations say,

1048
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 3: you're full of it. Why Why would someone waste helium

1049
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 3: in a recreational balloon? The issue is with the semiconductor shortages.

1050
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 3: The issue is also it's very, very very expensive to

1051
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 3: try to build new foundries, not even the top notch ones,

1052
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 3: just foundries that can make you know, pocket calculator chips.

1053
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 3: It's incredible, prohibitively expensive. It may lead to a war.

1054
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 3: We'll have to see how long the silicon shield theory holds.

1055
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 3: We'll have to hope that the US and China can

1056
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 3: navigate a peaceful way out of this conundrum.

1057
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 2: And of course.

1058
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 3: War and instability. Statistically speaking, at this point they are

1059
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 3: on the horizon. It's due to a number of factors.

1060
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: Destabilizing governments, rise of fascism and inequality, climate refugees, food crisis,

1061
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 3: water crisis. But semiconductor chips, those tiny, tiny things may

1062
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 3: well be the spark that sets the whole sets the

1063
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,439
Speaker 3: whole party going. We can only hope that's not the case.

1064
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 3: We want to hear your thoughts. Going to try to

1065
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 3: bring up the intonation at the end to sound a

1066
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 3: little more positive. Big big thanks to Semiconductors for making

1067
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 3: this show possible, and big big thanks to you for

1068
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 3: tuning in. Yeah, folks, would what do you think? Do

1069
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 3: you think this conflict would ever go hot? It seems

1070
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 3: like it be super terrible for the majority of the world.

1071
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 3: But as the old quote goes, when elephants wage war,

1072
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 3: it is the grass that suffers. We can't wait to

1073
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 3: hear from you. We try to be easy to find

1074
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 3: online as long as our little transistors keep transisting.

1075
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 4: Ah, the little transistor that could. You can find us

1076
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 4: in a myriad of places on the social network platform

1077
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 4: formerly known as Twitter, on YouTube and on Facebook at

1078
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 4: the handle Conspiracy Stuff, on TikTok and Instagram where Conspiracy

1079
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 4: Stuff show Hey.

1080
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 2: You can also call us. Our number is one eight

1081
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 2: to three three st d WYTK. It's a voicemail system.

1082
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 2: You give yourself a cool nickname. You say whatever you

1083
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 2: want for three minutes. Just do include if we can

1084
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 2: use your name and voice on one of our listener

1085
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: mail episodes. If you've got or net Yeah.

1086
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 3: That quick energe. Actually though, I think some of our

1087
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 3: fellow listeners might enjoy this.

1088
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 4: Uh.

1089
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 3: We're big fans of the phone line and I can't

1090
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 3: wait to hear the special voicemail voicemail edition that you

1091
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 3: you annulted. Also confession sometimes I call the phone line myself.

1092
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 2: Really all right, I'm gonna sift through. I've got more

1093
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 2: to do today on that. Oh man, Ben, it's just brought.

1094
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 2: Why did that bring? I was listening to way too

1095
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 2: much moral technique? So it was Revolutionary volume two and

1096
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 2: it's Point of No Return that has some of the

1097
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,639
Speaker 2: most just the best lyrics I've ever heard in my life,

1098
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: Like so so good. And for a conspiracy show that

1099
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 2: we make, like those lyrics, you're just like, oh wait,

1100
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 2: what did they find underneath the table of Solomon?

1101
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 5: Wait?

1102
01:08:55,320 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 3: What what? Alexa? The name is doucle Wincident.

1103
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, Oh yeah, okay, anyway, yes, I'm gonna check

1104
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 2: for you on the phone lines as well as everybody else.

1105
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: And uh yeah. If you don't want to do that stuff,

1106
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 2: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

1107
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 2: We read everything that we receive.

1108
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1109
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:41,839
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1110
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1111
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.