1
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff.

2
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,000
Speaker 1: I'll never told your production of I Heart Radio's How

3
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:20,160
Speaker 1: Stuff Works. Well, I have to start this one with

4
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,560
Speaker 1: a quick correction and apology because listener Emily wrote in

5
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,400
Speaker 1: that as of early twenty nineteen, singer Sam Smith identifies

6
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,720
Speaker 1: as non binary, and I used the incorrect pronouns in

7
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 1: our Goodbye episode. I did not know that and appreciate

8
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,160
Speaker 1: the correction because it's super important to get right and

9
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:42,080
Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about today, pronouns. So thanks, Emily,

10
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: and I'm really sorry for getting that wrong. Yes, waity

11
00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 1: to look out. Yeah, some of this stuff we're going

12
00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,199
Speaker 1: to be talking about in this one relates to our

13
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 1: episodes that we did around sexism and language, a lot

14
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: of stuff actually, and our more recent episode on What's

15
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 1: in a Name if you want to do some follow

16
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 1: up listening. Also, I don't have any doubt that will

17
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,040
Speaker 1: return to this because there are so much amazing writing

18
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,520
Speaker 1: and things changing as we record this, right, and then

19
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 1: one of the reasons we wanted to talk about it

20
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,479
Speaker 1: is because of some of the pushback about the fact

21
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,280
Speaker 1: that it is changing so quickly and people are recognizing

22
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,399
Speaker 1: beyond just the he or she and that's so important

23
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 1: that we get this correct. And as a person who

24
00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,800
Speaker 1: is coming into my afforities, you know, change is hard,

25
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,600
Speaker 1: but it's not about you, so get it together. Um. So, yes,

26
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 1: we're talking about pronouns, and of course, as per usual,

27
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,319
Speaker 1: we're going to give a definition. The Dictionary definition of

28
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,679
Speaker 1: pronouns is a word that can function by itself as

29
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 1: a noun phrase and that refers either to participants in

30
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,560
Speaker 1: the discourse e g. I, you, or to someone or

31
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: something mentioned else in the discourse. Again, she it this.

32
00:01:54,360 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 1: Pronouns can be singular, plural, possessive, reciprocal, personal, reflective, demonstrative, indefinite, relative, interrogative. Essentially,

33
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: they can serve a lot of functions in our language

34
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 1: and we can use them for all kinds of things. Yeah.

35
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,560
Speaker 1: After as as listeners who heard that Sexism and Language episode, No,

36
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,240
Speaker 1: I'm a huge language nerd. I love it. Um And

37
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,600
Speaker 1: after I read this definition, every time I used to

38
00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,359
Speaker 1: pronoun and I had a moment of there's one right

39
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: when you start really listening for and you you kind

40
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,800
Speaker 1: of have to stop and correct yourself, like, let's not

41
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,160
Speaker 1: assume it's they just go with they yes, because that

42
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: is one that we're talking about, in particular to day they,

43
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: which has fairly recently been used as a non binary,

44
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,360
Speaker 1: gender neutral pronoun for those that don't identify with he

45
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 1: or she. While the singular pronoun use of they has

46
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: been around in the English language for over six hundred

47
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: years since at least the thirteen hundreds, and this is

48
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 1: around the same time she came into use, it was

49
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 1: discouraged in eighteen hundreds to use it that way, largely

50
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,960
Speaker 1: replaced by the masculine heat, which, of course, going back

51
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,120
Speaker 1: to sexism and language. It goes back to the assumption

52
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 1: that the masculine is neutral the norm, and anything else

53
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,680
Speaker 1: is a deviation from that, and we still see this

54
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 1: all the time, and words like businessman, fisherman. The argument

55
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,239
Speaker 1: was that plural pronoun they can't refer to singular antecedent

56
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 1: a singular antecedent, even though that's basically what you the

57
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: word you did. It doesn't mean that people stopped using

58
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,000
Speaker 1: they as a singular pronoun altogether. Jane Austen used it

59
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 1: in her works, for instance, but it wasn't super common, right.

60
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: A contributor for the New Bedford Medley condescendingly correct that

61
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 1: three women were using the singular they. In an essay

62
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,920
Speaker 1: that appeared in the paper previously, he said that such

63
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,160
Speaker 1: a mistake did quote no honor to themselves or the

64
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 1: female sex in general, and the women clapped back that

65
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 1: they did it on purpose to conceal their gender. And

66
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,160
Speaker 1: if you don't like it, why don't you come up

67
00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 1: with your own pronouns. Boom, yeah, I love it. Feminists

68
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 1: have long pushed for gender neutral language. As the women's

69
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 1: rights movement game momentum in the nineteenth century, so too

70
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 1: did the call for what they called common gender pronouns.

71
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 1: This was part of an effort to keep he from

72
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 1: becoming the generic pronoun. In four c C. Converse coined

73
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 1: and popularized fawn that and one combined, which referred to

74
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,240
Speaker 1: all genders. People were talking about it all over this country,

75
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: but it had a pretty short lifespan, and this definitely

76
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,640
Speaker 1: wasn't the first attempt at filling the need for a

77
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,680
Speaker 1: gender neutral pronoun. In seventeen eighty nine, William H. Marshall

78
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 1: wrote about oh that meant he she it in his mind.

79
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,160
Speaker 1: In seventeen eighty nine, William H. Marshall wrote about oh

80
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 1: that meant he she it. Apparently some people were using that.

81
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,919
Speaker 1: The lack of mentioned too oh after that, though, indicates

82
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,080
Speaker 1: it also died out soon after. In ve su for

83
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 1: intendent and President of the National Education Association, Ella Flag

84
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 1: Young made headlines and drew audible gas during a speech

85
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,840
Speaker 1: to school principles when she used neutral pronouns that she

86
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: claimed she invented he or him or his error and

87
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,400
Speaker 1: his errors. A Chicago man named fred As Pond fired back,

88
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 1: claiming that these were his idea. In a nineteen eleven

89
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,840
Speaker 1: letter to the Mansfield, Ohio News Journal, Young confessed that yes,

90
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,719
Speaker 1: they were his idea. Pond explained he invented them because

91
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,400
Speaker 1: the use of they was what he called an error

92
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 1: and he or she too awkward. So the lack of

93
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 1: gender neutral and pronouns have come up in several legal cases.

94
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 1: The Maryland Supreme Court ruled in eighteen eighty six at

95
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 1: the use of he in a state statute around bard

96
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,720
Speaker 1: mission did in fact encompass only mails, and women therefore

97
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 1: were not allowed to practice law. Similarly, in nineteen sixteen,

98
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 1: a group of experts argued that women could not serve

99
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 1: in Congress due to the use of he in a

100
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:07,279
Speaker 1: specific part of the Constitution. Their argument didn't fly, surprise surprise,

101
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 1: and that year Gennet rank It out of Montana was

102
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 1: the first woman elected to the House of Representatives. Although

103
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,720
Speaker 1: in many ways are reclaiming of the words history, this

104
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 1: modern usage of they as a non binary singular pronoun

105
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 1: is relatively new born out necessity a way to somewhat

106
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 1: satisfy societal shifts since English does not have a gender

107
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 1: neutral pronoun. It also points to issue stemming from the

108
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 1: gender binary and how it leaves so many people out

109
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,280
Speaker 1: now though they has gone mainstream. And we'll get into

110
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 1: that after a quick break for words from our sponsor,

111
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. At the end of

112
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, the American Dialect Society the A. D S

113
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,560
Speaker 1: shows quote my pronouns as in my pronouns are she

114
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 1: her as their word of the year. And this is

115
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 1: something you've probably seen a lot of in social media

116
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,560
Speaker 1: bios and bios in general. Are email signatures on pens

117
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,840
Speaker 1: at conferences. I have a lot of those. It's a

118
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 1: way to get that established right off the bad. Sometimes

119
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 1: officially referred to as preferred gender pronouns, what most people

120
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,679
Speaker 1: say that term applies using the correct pronouns for someone

121
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: is optional, so kind of frowned upon to call them

122
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,120
Speaker 1: preferred pronouns um and this shown all light on the

123
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 1: fact that pronouns aren't always obvious and shouldn't be assumed.

124
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 1: The A. D. S went even further and named the

125
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 1: singular gender neutral pronoun they as the word of the decade.

126
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 1: They had previously been named their word of the year

127
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 1: in Pretty Big So such gender, meaning you identify with

128
00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 1: the sex you are as signed at birth, is now

129
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 1: also referred to as chromosomal female or a F a

130
00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 1: b assigned female at birth. Trans Astric is sometimes used

131
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 1: to refer to all non cisgendered identities. Vagina gets In

132
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 1: the language evolution game too Ya at Colombia, the vagina

133
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 1: monologue was replaced with beyond sister hood. Yeah, but back

134
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: to they. From Ben Zimmer, the Wall Street journalist, language

135
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 1: columnists and chair of the ad s S New Words Committee,

136
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 1: he said of the choice, when a basic part of

137
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,680
Speaker 1: speech like the pronoun becomes a vital indicator of social trends,

138
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,200
Speaker 1: linguists pay attention the selection of my pronouns of word

139
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 1: of the Year speaks to how the personal expression of

140
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 1: gender identity has become an increasing part of our shared discourse.

141
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 1: That trend is also reflected in singular they being chosen

142
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,559
Speaker 1: as a word of the decade, with a growing recognition

143
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,920
Speaker 1: of the use of they for those whose identities don't

144
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: conform to the binary of he or she. Zimmer also

145
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 1: went on to say, you're getting into issues of transcending

146
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 1: the gender binary. This is getting used as a pronoun

147
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: that people take for themselves to express gender fluidity or

148
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: transgender identity. That's relatively new, or at least new in

149
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 1: the public eye, just just for fun. Runners up for

150
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 1: their their word of the Year included okay, boomer and cancel, oh,

151
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 1: We're so cool? We are a dainty bit on trend

152
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,439
Speaker 1: for what and also Karen, Sorry KARENS. The A D

153
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,960
Speaker 1: S wasn't the only one reading the signs of days importance.

154
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,160
Speaker 1: Miriam Webster's also named they as their word of the year.

155
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 1: According to their data, such as on their Side about

156
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 1: the World, they soared three and twenty nineteen as compared

157
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,200
Speaker 1: to a giant jump. They officially added the singular pronoun

158
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 1: definition to their website in September twenty nineteen. A single

159
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:52,160
Speaker 1: person whose gender identity is non binary. Facebook offers fifty

160
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,560
Speaker 1: six gender options in the United States, and according to

161
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,840
Speaker 1: one survey, over half of millennials don't think gender is

162
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 1: limited to male and female. Over a third of gen

163
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,240
Speaker 1: Z knows a non binary person, which is huge, Which

164
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 1: is huge. The American Psychological Association now endorses using they

165
00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: when someone's gender is unknown in scholarly writing and publications,

166
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,720
Speaker 1: and when the express preferred pronoun of a known person

167
00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: is they. Emily A you be director of a p

168
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,960
Speaker 1: A style set of the recommendations. We wanted to be

169
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,720
Speaker 1: sure that our entire community knows that we see you,

170
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 1: we hear you, and we value you, and that they

171
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: wanted to ensure that everyone across the academy is using

172
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 1: a farming and inclusive language. You be added. We feel

173
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,040
Speaker 1: that it's important for all readers to see themselves in

174
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,679
Speaker 1: academic works. Yeah, which is very important, very and they

175
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,120
Speaker 1: are not alone in doing this. In The Washington Post

176
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: officially accepted they as the pronoun of choice. The Associated

177
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 1: Press did the same for what they called limited cases

178
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,439
Speaker 1: in even companies are updating their policies, some more successfully

179
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 1: than others. Goldman Sax Goldman Sex issued an announcement to

180
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,679
Speaker 1: their employees in twenty nineteen that read proactively share your

181
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 1: pronouns to foster and environment of respect and awareness. Example, Hi,

182
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm Karen. My pronouns or she hers Welcome to the team. California,

183
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,440
Speaker 1: New York and Washington, d C are in the process

184
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 1: of updating identification cards with the gender option of X.

185
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,400
Speaker 1: In New York, Referring to someone by the wrong pronouns

186
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,599
Speaker 1: falls under antidiscrimination law m HM. I was out of

187
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,400
Speaker 1: CBS a few years back and I did the you know,

188
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 1: generic Hi, how's your day with the cashier and they said,

189
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 1: I wish my manager would let us put our pronouns

190
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 1: on our name tags. I was like, yeah, yeah, And also,

191
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,280
Speaker 1: we're not really talking about this today. But there's so

192
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 1: much when you think about the binary. You can talk

193
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: about the gender neutral bathroom conversation, changing rooms, so much,

194
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: so many other things that should be talked about. Absolutely

195
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,480
Speaker 1: so they isn't the only non binary pronoun in the mix.

196
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 1: Some use Z, Z and here, H, I, R, M, X,

197
00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 1: and written form. According to a professor who special is

198
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,840
Speaker 1: this in the history of English language, Dennis Barron, a

199
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 1: k A dr Grammar, over one hundred pronouns have been

200
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 1: invented or repurposed in our history and modern ly that

201
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 1: is a lot. That's a lot of options, and of

202
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,079
Speaker 1: course there has been pushed back, with some people arguing

203
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 1: it's grammatically incorrect, which is not really true, and others,

204
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,600
Speaker 1: particularly conservatives, ridiculing the whole thing. Take Toronto professor Jordan Peterson,

205
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 1: who in said I don't recognize another person's right to

206
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: determine what pronouns I used to address them, which it's

207
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 1: a statement in itself I used to address them. It's

208
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,319
Speaker 1: kind of like, so you're choosing to oppress them because

209
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,440
Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable or you feel entitled to do so.

210
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 1: I mean, language definitely canon has been a tool of oppression.

211
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,079
Speaker 1: I've definitely seen more and more on Twitter if if

212
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,880
Speaker 1: there's some kind of political controversy or if there's some

213
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 1: backlash about the left and the right, the first thing

214
00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 1: that gets attacked if someone has the preference, and that's

215
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 1: the arc, well, oh, I see, I see you do this,

216
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,640
Speaker 1: and so automatic jump into really killing that, which has

217
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the conversation. A transgender teacher in

218
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 1: Florida was removed after requesting that students used the pronoun

219
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,640
Speaker 1: they for them or m X and A couple of

220
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,920
Speaker 1: years ago, the Tennessee legislator passed a law forbidding any

221
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 1: taxpayer money be spent on pronouns in response to the

222
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: University of Tendency's diversity office suggesting that teachers ask students

223
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,679
Speaker 1: preferred pronoun which is really sad. Yeah, the article I

224
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:34,040
Speaker 1: read about it from doctor Grammar, aforementioned Dr Grammar, he said,

225
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 1: which brings the question how much does the pronoun costs? Right?

226
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,720
Speaker 1: It was a really good article. We do. You have

227
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 1: some other languages we want to talk about, and some

228
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: more stuff in English, but first we have one more

229
00:13:45,920 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.

230
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsored. So some languages have even more to

231
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,800
Speaker 1: undangle than we do in this journey to becoming more

232
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 1: inclusive in our language. Some languages don't have words for gay,

233
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,280
Speaker 1: are transgender at all. Also, some languages don't really need them. Generally,

234
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 1: there are three main types of languages. Natural gender, which

235
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,320
Speaker 1: is a term some have deemed in itself problematic where

236
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 1: objects don't have gender but people do. In English as

237
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: an example of that, so Swedish gendered languages like German, French,

238
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,760
Speaker 1: are Spanish and which objects and people get gender. So

239
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,600
Speaker 1: if you say the table, the table has a gender

240
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,240
Speaker 1: and then genderless where no nouns are gendered, like Chinese

241
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 1: and Finnish, and this confused me quite a bit when

242
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 1: I first started learning Mandarin. Like we talked about in

243
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,400
Speaker 1: our sexism and Language episodes, some languages have gendered verbs

244
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 1: and even in the case of gender neutral pronouns like

245
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: it in English are s and German those We don't

246
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 1: use those to designate people to be pretty offensive if

247
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: you did currently currently, but English is not the only

248
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,960
Speaker 1: language evolving. A few years ago, the Swedish Academic Dictionary

249
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,800
Speaker 1: accepted a gender neutral pronoun n h g N, which

250
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 1: actually was coined in the nineties sixties but fell out

251
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,640
Speaker 1: of fashion until the two thousand's. A study conducted soon

252
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 1: after with two thousand Swedish participants where they were asked

253
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,120
Speaker 1: to describe kind of a cartoony stick figure with either

254
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 1: the sweetest version of he, she or the new gender

255
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: neutral pronoun and the participants overwhelmingly used the gender neutral option,

256
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 1: and in a separate but related study, participants widely used

257
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: the gender neutral pronouns in stories wherein the gender of

258
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: the characters were not specified. New words like this are

259
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 1: not only powerful for those that are non binary, but

260
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,640
Speaker 1: also for the society as a whole when it comes

261
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 1: to acceptance and accepting rights. And this all kind of

262
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 1: got started after a children's book came out using the

263
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 1: the gender neutral pronoun In of course, there was thank you,

264
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: but other people were like, oh yeah, yeah, and to

265
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: go off of like the power of language. As we

266
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,080
Speaker 1: said in our Sexism and Language podcast, some researchers believe

267
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,680
Speaker 1: our language structures, influences, and determines what and how you

268
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: think in many ways. And one of my favorite drunken

269
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 1: topics of discussion is how that impacts science fiction, in

270
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 1: the power of science fiction to challenge those limitations, because

271
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,160
Speaker 1: if you're describing worlds that are not our own, and

272
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 1: I believe Octavia Butler has a famous example of she

273
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 1: she was saying, I couldn't there was no word to

274
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,160
Speaker 1: describe the gender of what I was creating, Right, So

275
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 1: I love. That's one thing I love. If I get drunk,

276
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll get it. You'll get it one day, surprise,

277
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,800
Speaker 1: I haven't already. I am too. I have too much

278
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 1: to talk about with alien and spiders, different things, um

279
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah. There was some backlash to this in Sweden,

280
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,040
Speaker 1: and one newspaper even went so far to ban the

281
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 1: use of him M yeah, alright, So let's look at

282
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,119
Speaker 1: some other specific examples. So in Spanish, too popular options

283
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: to indicate all genders are at or the at side

284
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 1: or X like Latin X hasn't come easily. Some view

285
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: it as an imposition by a mega Spanish speakers, which okay,

286
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 1: non binary folks un Chili combined the masculine and feminine

287
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,200
Speaker 1: pronounced to create the new pronoun l A. Some young

288
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,080
Speaker 1: folks in Argentina has started pushing for gender neutral ending

289
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 1: a as opposed to the O, masculine O or the

290
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: feminine ah yes. And then in France and seen the

291
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 1: first ever textbook promoting a version of the French language

292
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 1: that was gender neutral. It was based on ten recommendations

293
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: from from from the High Council for Gender Equality came

294
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 1: out and as you may know, I certainly do. French

295
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,159
Speaker 1: are very protective of their language and this drew some backlash.

296
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,119
Speaker 1: They deliberate on this, and the highest irritative body on

297
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 1: the French language, the French Academy Ecademy France, says warned

298
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 1: this would lead to what they called quote a disunited language,

299
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 1: disparate in its expression, creating a confusion that borders on illegibility.

300
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 1: And faced with this inclusive aberration, the French language is

301
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: now in mortal danger, a fact for which our nation

302
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,160
Speaker 1: is now accountable to future generations. And it didn't in there.

303
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,239
Speaker 1: It went on to say that this would ruin the

304
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 1: Francophony are the linguistic zone of the countries that use

305
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 1: French at the administrative level around the world, and or

306
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 1: majority of people speak French. In two thousand and six,

307
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 1: a famous Academy member condemned quote absurd feminations being proposed

308
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,760
Speaker 1: in Quebec, blaming the quote women's leagues in the United

309
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 1: States that the man where behind the Oh no, I

310
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 1: think I was quite young in two thousand and six,

311
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 1: but I was already messing up the language. People can

312
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:06,119
Speaker 1: blamed that introducing gender neutral language would complicate education, I

313
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 1: would mess up their language in general. Prime Minister Eduard

314
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 1: Philipp's office banned all use of gender neutral pronouns on

315
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 1: official government documents. Soon after, opposition articles ran with titles

316
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 1: like feminism, the Delirium of inclusive Writing and inclusive Writing

317
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,919
Speaker 1: the New factory for idiots with little asterix in between

318
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,360
Speaker 1: the E and s, which is ridiculing. The proposed use

319
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 1: of asteris to combine case endings, so a lot of

320
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 1: work to be done there everywhere. I'm not specifically calling

321
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 1: out France, but the German language is one that faces

322
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 1: many challenges in this regard to the grammatical gender for

323
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 1: every single word must match for all four cases, which

324
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,360
Speaker 1: means new pronoun, new conjugation. Some Germans have started using

325
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 1: gender neutral nouns, and practice is becoming more and more

326
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 1: common in official settings. Hanover became the first city to

327
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: mandate that official communication use gender neutral nouns in twenty nineteen.

328
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: Some using asterix are gender stars. Some people call it

329
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 1: to indicate that they do not identify as either male

330
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 1: or female. The University of Leipzig implemented what they called

331
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 1: generic feminism, where feminine pronouns were used to represent all genders,

332
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: as a way of highlighting the historic use of the

333
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:29,199
Speaker 1: generic masculine. I also studied German and also struggled with

334
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 1: all of this. Dot if damn if that's an inside

335
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 1: joke for any people who have studied German and like

336
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 1: the masculine form is the default, but in recent years

337
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: there has been a push to adopt dual pronouns that

338
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: refer to both masculine and feminine. Others are choosing to

339
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 1: default the feminine to call attention to the patriarchy. The

340
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 1: non Binary Hebrew Project is triving to create a third

341
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 1: gender neutral pronoun, and then Esperanto is also working on

342
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 1: a gender neutral pronoun, something that has been won in

343
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: the works for years. Yes, and we still have a

344
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: lot of work to do. They isn't perfect. One study

345
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 1: found that almost seventy English speakers associated they with masculine. However,

346
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: another study found that when asked to name famous television personalities,

347
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: French participants named more women when the question was phrased

348
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: more inclusively and less gendered, although in either case they

349
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: still named more men. Twelve study found a possible link

350
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: between gendered grammar and a lower labor rate participation among women.

351
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 1: In seventeen, linguists Raphael Haddad and his firm published an

352
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: online manual on inclusive writing aimed at companies and institutions, which,

353
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: in his mind, it would go a long way in

354
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 1: combating gender and equality. The French version of Microsoft word

355
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 1: in the companies, whereas quote targets gendered language, which may

356
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: be perceived as excluding dismissive or stereotypes and encourages gender

357
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 1: inclusive options. Wait so do they So it's like a

358
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: little squiggle. This is too ger I don't know, that's

359
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: what I think. Oh, that's interesting. I kind of want

360
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: to look at one of those. A twenty sixteen survey

361
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: called Bucking the Linguistic Binary gender neutral Language in English, Swedish, French,

362
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: and German found the transgender mono lingual respondence did not

363
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: feel English gender neutral language allowed them to correctly express

364
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: their identity. One respondent wrote, when I was using gender

365
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: neutral pronouns in English, it was almost impossible to get

366
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: anyone who wasn't in the queer community to use they

367
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: for me consistently. This was at an early stage of

368
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 1: me asking them not to use she, the pronoun I

369
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: was assigned at birth, So I think people were still

370
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 1: getting used to the idea of any pronoun other than

371
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: she for me. But I had the impression that people

372
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: outside the queer world, not LGBT but queer as in

373
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: challenging gender binaries, had an even harder time with the

374
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 1: idea of a gender neutral pronoun than with the idea

375
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: of someone crossing gender lines, i e. Thing he instead

376
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 1: of she, So people with default to she, which was

377
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 1: umbearable to me. So he felt lot safer to me

378
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: since it was farther away from they and easier for

379
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: people to wrap their minds around. The study also found

380
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: almost of responses preferred gender neutral forms of address. So

381
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: no mr, us miss. You know. I even find that

382
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: weird to have, like the M, I S, S A

383
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 1: mrs and MS a whole thing, So I do M

384
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: S and then realize later people are like, you know,

385
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: they think you're divorced, and I like, well, son of

386
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 1: a bat. Yeah, it's a mess, and I'm not really

387
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: sure why we need it. I don't either, but anyway whatever.

388
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: Russian blogger Paulina Ravyak wrote in an email about this issue, quote,

389
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: we don't have a gender neutral pronoun for people a gender.

390
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: People use feminine or masculine pronouns according to their personal preference.

391
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: There can also be situations where a woman can refer

392
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: to herself in the masculine way grammatically, and vice versa.

393
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that the issue isn't widely discussed yet

394
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: in Russia because, in my opinion society isn't ready to

395
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: scept gender on a spectrum. Homosexual propaganda is still a

396
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: findable offense in the Russian Federation, so that's worth keeping

397
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: in mind too. These battles are in all kinds of

398
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: different stages. People are still being arrested. Yeah. Genderless languages

399
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: with ungendered pronouns do make things a lot easier, but

400
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: they can have their own drawbacks. Some words are sort

401
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: of stealth gendered, and those things can be difficult to

402
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: correct without a gendered pronoun. For example, if if everyone

403
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: assumes if you say a lawyer, and everyone assumes lawyers men,

404
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: and you don't have a gender pronoun to say she

405
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: is a lawyer can be tricky, right. A lot of

406
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: pieces we read suggested introducing yourself with your gender pronouns

407
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: if you feel comfortable doing so, and that having it

408
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: on your bio is a good thing. And our language, remember,

409
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: continues to evolve. Yeah, as as we sat at the top,

410
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: so much is happening right now, I have to ask

411
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: a lot of young uns what does this mean? It's true,

412
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: but you gotta stay up to date. When Sam Smith

413
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: officially updated their pronouns on social media in September, twenty nineteen,

414
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: They wrote, I understand there will be many mistakes and

415
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: miss gendering about all I ask is you please please try.

416
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: I hope you can see me like I see myself now,

417
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: And yeah, to not do so is disrespectful and harmful

418
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: when it comes to things like gender dysphoria, and exhausting

419
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: for people to explain, like we talked about around dead

420
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: naming and our what's in a name episode? So yes,

421
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: this is all super important and I'm sorry again I

422
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: got it wrong. I'm gonna try harder to get it right,

423
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: just like we all should. Right. I know, I struggle

424
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: still going back because I will say cheat he, and

425
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: then I'll stop myself very obviously and say they, because

426
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get into that swing and understanding this

427
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: is really problematic and offensive and I don't want to

428
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: be one more person that causes trauma for those who's

429
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: already experienced way too much trauma than necessary. Yeah. Yeah,

430
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: so exciting times and I feel like people. I think

431
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: language is this dead thing, but it's alive and it

432
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: evolves and it reflects so much of who we are

433
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: and for a lot of things I just can't keep up.

434
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: But for the important things we do, yes, and we

435
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: would love to hear your thoughts around all of this.

436
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: Any resources that you'd like to send our way, please do.

437
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: Our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at i heeart

438
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: media dot com. You can find us on Instagram at

439
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You, are on Twitter at mom

440
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always too, are still missing super

441
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening Stuff

442
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You the production of I Hiart Radios,

443
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works for more podcast for my Heart Radio

444
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: is the Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever please

445
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows