1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening. Don't either podcast. 3 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, 4 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: stay longer, moving out. We're gonna talk about a a 5 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: controversial subject and that is um, the Mexican gray wolf, 6 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: and I'll explain why it's kind of it's it's controversial 7 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: from from the ground up. Uh, for a bunch of 8 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: different reasons which we'll get into. But first I want 9 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: to go around and have our guests and reduce themselves. 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: We've got someone from the US Fishing Wildlife Service, Yeah, Steve. 11 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm John oakleyf with the Fishing Wildlife Service on the 12 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: field programs coordinator, so out in the field working with 13 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: various folks and been on the project since two thousand two, 14 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: no project being the Mexican Wolf Project and then Forest 15 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: Service USDA four Service be centers. I am the four 16 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: Service liaison to the Mexican Wolf Project. They have me 17 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: embedded with the biologists on the wolf program to try 18 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: to help with the communication process. It's a complex, controversial, 19 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: a lot of moving parts going on with this project, 20 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: so they have me in place to try to help 21 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: smooth those parts and keep them working smooth with communications 22 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: with our forest users and try to reduce some of 23 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: that conflict that's going on. And it matters to you, guys, 24 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: because a lot of this is occurring on land administered 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: by the Forest Service. Yeah, almost exclusively on Force Service land. 26 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: The Force Services a land management management agency. We manage 27 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: the habitat and fish and Wildlife Service does on the 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: groundwork on dealing with the wolves. And then again, uh, 29 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: becoming a frequent guest, doctor Carl Malcolm. That's accurate. Yea 30 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: Carl Malcolm, Southwestern Regional Wildlife ecologist with the U. S 31 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: d A for Service. How long have you been, Dr 32 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: Carl Malcolm Fork. I finished my PhD. I defended my 33 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: thesis in uh late two thousand eleven, so I'll be 34 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: coming up on six years old timey doctor man, I 35 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: don't know about that. Um here's the first question. So 36 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: everybody knows gray wolves, right, gray wolves are gray wolves 37 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: are gray wolves. They had an enormous range at the 38 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: time of European contact. Is it like, is it legit 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: because you know what tax on and you've got lumpers 40 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: and splitters, right, Okay, as My brother said, you got 41 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: lumpers and splitters and they know who they are. Um, 42 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: how legit is it to say that that that that 43 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: it's a subspecies when there was no when there was 44 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: no break in the populations, they just like bled into 45 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, so what they what they think going 46 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: back in time is there was in terms of the 47 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: gray wolf, it came over from Old World Europe across 48 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: across the Baring Sea and there was several evasions. So 49 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: there was three invasions of gray wolves that came over. 50 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: The first wave basically was a Mexican wolf, so it 51 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: comes over establishes on North America everywhere, Yeah, basically every time. 52 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: The second wave then is Kenas Lupus nubilis, so that's 53 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: basically Great Plains wolves, the wolves that are up in Minnesota, Wisconsin, 54 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: those areas. And then the last wave is Kenas Lupus occidentalis, 55 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: which is up in um Alaska, Canada now kind of 56 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: coming down from that area right up to the United 57 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: States border. So it's pretty widely recognized that that those 58 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: three are subspecies of the gray wolf. And you say, like, 59 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: so so distinct. These are distinct waves of distinct species 60 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: coming down I mean, they were all subspecies in Europe 61 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: at the time. They just represent different genetics, and then 62 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: once they're isolated from each other, they start representing different 63 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: genetics and you can really determine between them. And so 64 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: you feel that a dude riding around on a horse 65 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: and in if he if he started in, if you 66 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: started at the Arizona Mexico border and rode due north, 67 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: that he would have thought like man like as he 68 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: got up into the Northern Rockies, he would have said, man, 69 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: these wolves seem different than the ones that I was 70 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: running into when I started my ride. Well, yeah, I 71 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: mean Mexican wolves down here at eighty pounds for a 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: big male for instance, Uh, big female would be sixty 73 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: pounds somewhere in there. When you go north, uh, and 74 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: get up into the ones in Yellowstone and some of 75 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: those areas that are there are now hundred forty pounds 76 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: is a big male with about twenty pounds of meat 77 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: and it's got so you'd say hundred and twenty pounds even, 78 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: And then females are in the pound range, so even 79 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: something like that. Northern Rockies wolves all the other subspecies 80 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 1: are have black phases, white phases. Mexican wolves only gray, 81 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: yeah only, So that's a distinguishing feature. So someone anybody 82 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: can see the difference, the big differences that occur. So 83 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: what what's up? Because it's one more, what's up with 84 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: the red wolf? So the red wolf is a separate species, 85 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: is what they So it's kenis rufous, So it's not 86 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: even it's not a sub species, it's a whole separate species, right. 87 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: And then there's an Eastern wolf that's out there that 88 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: some people are debating whether it's associated with the red 89 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: wolf or it's associated with gray wolves, and so there's 90 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: a fair better debate about that Eastern did the did 91 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: the red wolf come out of some kind of hybridization 92 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: with with wolves and coyotes? Or It's interesting. Science isn't perfect, right, 93 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of disagreements among scientists. And so 94 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: there's two different hypothesis right now going on. In ones 95 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: that it's a hybrid between gray wolves and coyotes, and 96 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: the second is is that it's a North American just 97 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: developed a bigger type of canaid and so this is 98 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: a bigger type of canaid represented by the Eastern wolves 99 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: and the red wolves. And then they subsequently read with 100 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: some coyotes through time and so, but in terms of 101 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: how they evolved, they evolved in North America as a 102 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: big canus. So if you again going back in time, 103 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: if you what would have been the pre contact like 104 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: the pre European contact range of what of what we 105 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: now describe as the Mexican gray wolf. So it'd be 106 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: uh in Arizona and New Mexico south into into um 107 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: Mexico and at that So if at that same time 108 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: you were in the Texas Panhandle, what would you have 109 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: said that wolf was, you would probably call it it 110 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: would be a Mexican wolf as well. On over in 111 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: Texas As primarily Mexican wolves. But there's bleed over right, 112 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: subspecies breed with each other still, and so there's gradations 113 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: that go on through it. It wasn't a sharp define line. 114 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: You'll see maps that have here's a line, but in 115 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: reality it was some big, fuzzy area transition zone. Yeah, 116 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: it's similar to now when we look at um if 117 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: you look at mule deer in black tail deer in California, 118 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: we've conveniently decided that I five right, Yeah, that a 119 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: deer can go from being a black tailed muled or 120 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: just by hopping the highway because you have that, like 121 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: I remember that an intercline of some there's some way 122 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: to put it, like a steady intercline of grades or 123 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: something like that. So so people like the clean line, right, 124 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: So I like a good clean line. Yeah. It's a 125 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: lot better than saying, hey, it's great Asians all over 126 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: the place and stuff like that. I mean, if you 127 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: go back in time, there are twenty four subspecies in 128 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: North America of gray wolf, and so saying that there's 129 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 1: three right now that you'd recognize consistently is right. That's 130 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: that's the lumpers kind of going in there. And so 131 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: review for me the three that are here, the three 132 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: that are in North America. Now, so it's the northern 133 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: Great Lakes. Yeah, so you have the Great Lakes, which 134 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: is Canas lupus um. I'm getting goofed up here, but 135 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: Kenas Lupus nucleus. So that's the Great Legs and it's 136 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: stretched all the way across the Central Plains and all 137 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: the way over into California and just big, big broad swath. 138 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: And then Occidentalis was up north and it kind of 139 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: was the last invading wave. And so when you see 140 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: the common line depicted for Occidentalis, which is a big 141 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: Alaska kind of wolves. It comes down into Montana just 142 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: a little bit, and it's kind of this odd shape, right, 143 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: so it kind of cuts out of shape of where 144 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: a New Bliss was. So that's kind of evidence of 145 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: this evasion happening that they're the last. They would have 146 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: continued to take over range because they're bigger, tougher, stronger 147 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And then down south is cance Lupus BAILEYI, 148 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: which is the Mexican wolf. So that's all the way 149 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: down to Mexico City and kind of coming up into 150 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: the mogi on Rim here in Arizona and kind of 151 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: that's where the transition zone really was where wolves started 152 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: getting bigger and and stuff. So if you go from 153 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: the deserts all Phoenix and kind of that area where 154 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of desert e, there certainly was less dispersal 155 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: as you got up into the mogi on Rim. Some 156 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: people called those Bailey I and some people call them 157 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: New Bliss. So somewhere in that range. So what was 158 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: the last year? Um, they came damn near to dine 159 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: out right, but not. But there was a point. There 160 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 1: was a point in time right when the only ones 161 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: that existed existed in captivity? What what year was at well? 162 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: We so the Fish and Wildlife Service, right, they listed 163 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: him Gray Walls overall and then um, we went to 164 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: a trapper by the name of Roy McBride, and so 165 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: that was seventy seventy nine eight time frame right in there. 166 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: And he went down to Mexico and caught some Mexican 167 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: wolves brought up to start the so there were none 168 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: in the US. There was none in the US. So 169 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: he goes down not even in captivity, not even in 170 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: captivity yet, so they were so there was a moment 171 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: when they're gone from the like what year? Okay, so 172 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: that kind of now that I know that, that kind 173 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: of change my question. What year were they gone in 174 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: what's now the US? And so well, so a few 175 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: kept on coming up in the seventies and stuff like that, 176 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: but then they they were coming up from Mexico. So 177 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: they're falling kind of trails and stuff across the border 178 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: and coming up. Are you familiar with McCarthy's Border trilogy. 179 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm not you ever read that? How could you? I don't, Well, 180 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: I told you I was impressed by your radian need 181 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: to read, you need to read Cormett McCarthy's The Border, 182 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: the Border trilogy, The Crossing, All the Pretty Horses. Okay. 183 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: The Crossing is a kid who grows up on the 184 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: New Mexico Mexico border. He there's some they're losing some 185 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: cattle to a wolf. His dad says, catch the wolf 186 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: and kill it. And he studies up and through trials 187 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: and tribulations, catches the wolf and can't kill it, and 188 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: he decides what he needs to do is bring it 189 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: down New Mexico and let it go where, um, they 190 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: won't be bothering anything anymore except for all the cattle 191 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: in Mexico. Wolf. The wolf dies anyways, but but it 192 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: goes it but uh, oh my god. Yeah, So anyhow 193 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: there are Mexican grave You need to read The Crossing. Yeah, 194 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: when you when you retire or something, well before that probably, 195 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: So what was the year they were gone? So we're 196 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: kind of gone. Well, let's just say McBride goes down 197 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: there and he captures some wolves to start up the 198 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: captive captive brading. So where where was he going to 199 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: catch him? Oh, Duraning. He was going all over Mexico, 200 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: but Durango kind of the Sierra Madre Occidental, which is 201 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: all that kind of stretches all the way down the 202 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: mountains ranges in the west, and they had good populations 203 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: down there or not not really. There's about fifty left 204 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: at the time when he was down yeah, and so 205 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: so what was Mexico's relations what was their thought on this, Well, 206 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: we signed an agreement to go get him down there, 207 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: and they thought even though we got fifty, well, well, well, 208 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: we're willing to cut a few for you, because the 209 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: figuring was that they were going to be gone. Oh 210 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: they were gonna lose those two. Yeah. Yeah, so pretty 211 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: widely dispersed and probably gonna lose their populations as well. 212 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: And and and uh so by about I mean Roy 213 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: McBride was a guy who removed a bunch of wolves, 214 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: killed a bunch of wolves before this, and then he 215 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: was hired to go down and capture these wolves because 216 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: he knew how to do it. He knew how to 217 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: do it, and so he literally started up the recovery 218 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: programmed by going down and doing this. Is what was 219 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 1: his relationship to it to what do you feel that 220 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: he just was interested in the money or do you 221 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: feel that he was there was he like, uh, you know, 222 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: was there something bigger going on or was it just 223 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: like he liked to catch wolves? And if that's what 224 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: catching wolves was like, now that's what he would do. 225 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: He's more of a lion hunter. He's still alive. He's 226 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: an interesting guy to talk to. Builds, traps and stuff 227 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: like that. And so talk to him on the phone 228 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: every so often, and he's a neat guy. Is he 229 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: rooting for the wolves or not rooting for wolves? He 230 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 1: but he's probably just he just recognizes him as a 231 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: animal out there on the landscape. Doesn't hold him in 232 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: this giant special regard. Right, He's been through both sides 233 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: of it, and I want I want to step back, 234 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: just to just to make sure all the context, Like 235 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: um so, I keep trying to find ways of phrases. 236 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: What year was it when when it would have been 237 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: fair to say that they were like what was the 238 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: last point at which they were still plentiful in Arizona, 239 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: New Mexico their historic range in the lower forty eighth 240 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: man the fifties, maybe the fifties sixties, there was some 241 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: that were brought out fair number, but again most of 242 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: those were still kind of coming up from Mexico. But 243 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: that would be the time frame when there's still some 244 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: and then by the seventies it was dismal, there's nothing. 245 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: And then by the oh when we wrote up in 246 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: n there was some surveys down in Mexico and there 247 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: was no more Mexican wolves in Mexico. They did lose 248 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: them down there. Yeah, so they were gone as well. 249 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: And so what we got left with was, um, this 250 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: captive population and uh, through genetics and stuff, we found 251 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: a couple other animals that were pure Mexican wolves in 252 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: captivity that have been long standing captive populations at different places. 253 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: Just some hobbyist head. Yeah, so it was ghost French 254 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: was one lineage that we refer to it now there 255 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: and um and they proved to be that they were 256 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: still genetically intact. Ye bread with dogs or whatever. Yeah. 257 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: So so how many were there at this point in captivity, Well, 258 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: so there was that that's the start of the captivity 259 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: was seven animals. So that's what started our captive population. 260 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: By the whole population bottlenecked down to seven. And they 261 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: can they can withstand that kind of thing. Well, wolves 262 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: are because they disperse a long ways. They do pretty 263 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: good with genetics so if you can raise them up 264 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: and so you can deal with the bottleneck like grizzly 265 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: bears and Yellowstone bottle neck pretty severely when they shut 266 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: down like the dumps. But then the population goes back 267 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: up broadens back out pretty quickly, and then you get 268 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: that they can deal with that. You don't lose as 269 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: much genetic diversity. So once you start producing them in 270 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: captivity and you do a fair better that, then it 271 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: works out. Okay, it's less than ideal though, yeah, but 272 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: it's better than none. Right, Blackfoot of Ferret's down to 273 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: sixteen at the time, so that's when they came out 274 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, they brought him in captivity and they're 275 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: putting them mount in various areas, so Wyoming, Arizona, um 276 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: all over the place. So when they were down to 277 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: seven UM in the late seventies, um, what number did 278 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: they hit in captivity? Well before we did, I mean 279 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: eight two. I remember we did a recovery plan and 280 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: it was they were saying it was around twenty or something. 281 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: In captivity, they just go to Zoo Zoological Institute. So 282 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: they kind of starts scattering them around all over the 283 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: place just so like one bolt lightning couldn't kill them 284 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: all one day. Yeah, that's a good idea, right, spread 285 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: them out and then uh, when we started doing releases, 286 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: there was about hundred and fifty. So we started doing 287 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: releases up here and there was somewhere two hundred fifty. 288 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: Now there's two fifty to three in captivity, all right, 289 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: but that's okay, that's a huge jump. Yeah, when you 290 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: say that when we started doing releases, so how like, 291 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: how did that all come? Like, lay that story out, 292 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: how we started doing releases? No, like where who wanted 293 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: to do it, who didn't want to do it? Where 294 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: was it gonna happen? Oh yeah, I mean I wasn't 295 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: here at the time. I'm not that old anyways. I 296 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: think in general, when you look at releases and going 297 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: to do reintroductions, a lot of people who are local 298 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: in the area, who are raising livestock, who are hunters 299 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: out there, are generally opposed to wolf reintroductions because it's 300 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: another predator that's competing on the environment. And so when 301 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: you when you lay it out like that, those were 302 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: the folks who didn't want to do it at the time. 303 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: New Mexico Game and Fish didn't want to uh do it. 304 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: And so it's similar with the gray wolf reintroduction in 305 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: the North where the States states, I mean, in a 306 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: very general sense, the states were uneasy. Yeah, because it 307 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: is or beyond uneasy, you bet, you bet. So it affects, right. 308 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: Game populations are part of that equation. So if you're 309 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: impacting game populations and stuff like that as a state agency, 310 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: and where you can stituents are, which are broadly hunters 311 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: and fishermen. Um, they when you're talking about retroducing a predator, right, 312 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: that's not the most popular position for those guys to be. 313 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: It wasn't gone that long from the landscape, right, So 314 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: it was like for many adults, it was probably still 315 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: in their memory that these wolves have been around. And 316 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm guessing that if you guys were breeding them, the 317 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: plan was always to reintroduce them. It wasn't like you 318 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: bread them up and then all of a sudden said, 319 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: oh what about this thing? Yeah, so in two they said, well, 320 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: we only got twenty animals in captivity. So all we 321 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: can imagine is finding an area that's uh ten thousand 322 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: square miles that we can get a hundred wolves to 323 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: exist in the wild. And that's not recovery. But that's 324 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: all that we can imagine. And so these guys that 325 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: were writing it up, that was the extent of their 326 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: imagination for the Mexican wolf. But that's what they envisioned. Rap. 327 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: But that's what we'll get into this. But that's still 328 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: kind of the plan. Now. Well, no, we've we've we've 329 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: envisioned a little bit more, envisioned more. We've grown a 330 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: little bit since. But but you're operating. So the agency 331 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: that you work for is operating under, is operating under 332 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: a sort of mandate for the legal framework of the 333 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act, which signing the law by Nixon and 334 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: seventy two. Right, So, I mean it's not real, it's 335 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: not real gray about what that means for I mean, 336 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: when a species gets listed, it means that we have 337 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: a national priority two like work toward delisting to recover 338 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: the species. Absolutely, and that so it's like in a 339 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: in a way, it's it's not it's not so much 340 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: like a guy decides to go out and do a reintroduction. 341 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: Like it's a little more complicated than that. Sure, it's 342 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: like a federal mandate. Well, right, and so you write 343 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: and an environmental impact statement is what it's called, and 344 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: so it's hundreds of pages. You put it out to 345 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: the public, they have comments on it, and then you 346 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: write a rule that says, here's a non essential experimental 347 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: rule that kind of loosens up the restrictions over all 348 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: the place from the Endangered Species Act. Well, because you 349 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: did it as they did as an experimental herd here 350 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: or experimental population, right, and they didn't do that. They 351 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: didn't do that in the North. Well they did. They 352 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: did it in um Yellowstone and Idaho with experimental status 353 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: experimental status, no essential, experimental. But in uh, Montana they 354 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: were endangered because they were naturally coming down from Canada 355 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: into Montana. So there was already a population in Montana 356 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: before those reintroductions ever occurred. So they kind of segmented 357 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: out zones and most of it was experimental too. Yeah, 358 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: it's tobacco. I just want to and correct me where 359 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: I go around, and so I just want to explain 360 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: it to people that uh trying to think of a 361 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: good a good case scenario. So, um, I take the 362 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: Bitterroot Mountain range. What when when grizzly bears were listed 363 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: in the seventies listening under Dangered Species Act, protection of 364 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: the seventies. Uh, they were focused on recovering some Mary's 365 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: that had remnant populations of bears, and there was mountain 366 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: ranges nearby the historically had them but didn't anymore. And 367 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: the animals are treated differently if they naturally went into 368 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: a mountain range than if they were put into a 369 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: mountain range. So if they if they walked over there, 370 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: they carried with them full e ESA protections. And if 371 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: they let them go in there, there's so much like 372 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: political pushback to letting them go that they would make 373 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: compromises and declare them um an experimental status, which gives 374 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: you a lot more leeway on lethal control of problem 375 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: animals and other stuff. So I remember this debate raging 376 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: among grizzly advocates being like, do we go with the 377 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: sure thing and put grizzlies into the bitter roots right 378 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: where they're gonna have only marginal protection, or do we 379 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: play the long game and wait from the walk in. 380 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: And I think that was part of the government even 381 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: proposed that for grizzly barrass in terms of the Central 382 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: Idaho Wilderness, doing a reintroduction from they're under non essential 383 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: experimental because it gives you a lot of leeways. It 384 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: gives you a lot of leeways for that leeway, it 385 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: gives you a lot of leeway for controlling conflict. Sure 386 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: for right so for right now, UM, people out there 387 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: at they see wall's attacking cattle on their private land, 388 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: they can shoot the wolf. And that's completely legal. It's 389 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: within our rule that we put in place, UH, that 390 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: they see on private land, UM wolves and the active 391 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: attacking a dog right now, they can shoot the wolf. 392 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: So they have certain measures that they can take in place, 393 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: and then UH to mitigate cattle conflict. We can control 394 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: wolves as well, either by removing them with traps or 395 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: shooting them. And so all this is flexibility that isn't 396 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: allowed understandard and endangered species stuff. The other thing is 397 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: you have a Section seven consultations on any land management 398 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: action and so that's where the like the four service 399 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: comes into play. We don't have to do Section seven 400 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: consultation with the wolf in the non essential experimental. So 401 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: we're not restricting any land use activities out there because 402 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: of the presence of wolves. So someone that wants to do, 403 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: like if someone wants to do some mineral development on 404 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: their land, they're not faced with that it's that it's 405 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: gray wolf recovery area and that their permit process gets 406 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: hung up. Right, Yeah, so now back up again. Early 407 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: on it was like, okay, we need how many acres? 408 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: It was ten thousand square miles ten thousand square miles 409 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: and who how did how was that selected? Well, so 410 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: it's the I S process. Um. They spent uh some 411 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: time selecting between different areas. Arizona Game of Fish did 412 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: a study in terms of different areas. One area was 413 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: the White Sands missile range that fell out all that 414 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: another area was a blue range area get rejected. Well, 415 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: it was included in the final rules, so White Sands 416 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: was there. We never did reintroductions. There was a backup spot, 417 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: but really there's not a lot of prey in that area. 418 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: It's not high by at the time hit. Most of 419 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: the mule deer pretty low in terms of population sizes, 420 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: and and so we did never choose to put wolves 421 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: out in the area um in the HeLa and for 422 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: fear that they would starve or for fear that they 423 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: would just split. Yes, both they split or starve. The 424 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: ones that survive would split and the ones that stayed 425 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: would stark. So they couldn't live off Ibex on the 426 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: that's a tough living man. Those orics out there or yeah, 427 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: those are I wouldn't want to take down an orex 428 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: with my mouth. So that area was within the area, 429 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: but wasn't like everything you need. I've haunted that I've haunted. 430 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: I ran lions with a body mine and the Blue Range. Yeah, 431 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: every trailheads got signs about wolves, you know, right, and 432 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: then well there's lots of elk there, man, there's a 433 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: pile of elk. So right now you're talking to Heila 434 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: twenty two thousand elk in the Greater HeLa National Forest 435 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: and over on the Arizona side. These are the two 436 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: forests where we did it to start with. On the 437 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: Arizona side eight to ten thousand on the two little 438 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: chunks that we did it on. So you might you 439 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: probably know this that you know that at the time, 440 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: I'm sure you know this. At the time, New Mexico 441 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: had no elk, right, yeah, talk about a bottleneck, right, 442 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: and you know zero to seventy elk. Hunters and fishermen 443 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: set the stage for wolf recovery by reintroducing elk, by 444 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: caring about the land, caring about these ungulates that are 445 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: out there and and re establishing big herds of ungulates. Yeah, 446 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: but now we're like that anyway, we did it, well, 447 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: that's not why they did it, right, They did it 448 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: for a hunting right, Uh? No, did it for Yeah, 449 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: hunting has a very large umbrella turn. Yeah, you know, 450 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: because you know, if you go and look like in Kentucky, 451 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: which is engaged in a reintroduction of elk, the guy 452 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: like the odds of drawing LTAG Kentucky are like u 453 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: per cent. Like the guys that work on that reintroduction 454 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: are never gonna draw elk tag, right, you know what 455 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: I mean, they're just doing it for doing it. That's 456 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: the land between the lakes out there. Is that where 457 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: they're doing it at No, No, they're doing it Southeast Kentucky. 458 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: All that recovered coal mine, you know, the mountaintop removable 459 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: coal mine when they when they did uh you know 460 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: the mitigation propor Now the what what's that remedi is 461 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: the remediate mediation the remediation plan for a lot of 462 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: that mountaintop coal mining basically has created a little prairie 463 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: patches on top of those mountains and create all these grasslands. 464 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: So I said in New Mexico had zero elk. At 465 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: one point there were zero elk east of the Mississippi, 466 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: and now there's elk herds in eleven states. Kentucky's got ballpark. 467 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: The recovery plan was ten thousand. Now it's kind of 468 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: like the semi official numbers fourteen thousand elk. Some people 469 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: think it might be twenty thousand elk. It's the biggest 470 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: herd east of the Mississippi, and it lives on those things. 471 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: But the point being that, um, yeah, you might be like, oh, 472 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: you're just doing it because you want to shoot one, 473 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: and people they're like, dude, I can tell you one 474 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: thing that ain't gonna happen is me drawing out tag 475 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: in Kentucky. But I still got involved in the process 476 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: the same way. There's a lot of people involved in 477 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: wolf recovery. They have no intention of shooting one. In fact, 478 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: I'd ventured to say everyone involved in wolf recovery has 479 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: no intention to shooting one. No, but I'd like to 480 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: see you get there, right. You want to see it 481 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: where it's a huntable species, where it's has populations robusting 482 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: because of what that would mean. Yeah, because I mean 483 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: you had a sustainable population. Yeah, so that's great then 484 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: at that stage, and so it's a wonderful thing. I 485 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: think if you go back to the thirties, so when 486 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: they were doing the Elkare introduction or the forties, I 487 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: wonder if there wasn't more focused on honey hunting and stuff. 488 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: No making, Yeah, I think making a resource man, I 489 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 1: know absolutely, And then he still had a cult. There 490 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,719 Speaker 1: was still a cultural memory of having hunted him too, 491 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, No, it's it's when I say 492 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: it's like a hunting as an umbrella idea, that that 493 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: that pushes that kind of stuff. Cause I think it's 494 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: not that someone goes down the path of doing that 495 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: thinking like, oh, next year I'll be hunting them. You're 496 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: playing a long game and it's not just like totally pragmatic. Now. 497 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: A guy that goes and buys a truckload of bluegills 498 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: to dump in his private pond is focused on a 499 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: very near term future. You know. He's like a different 500 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: fella than a guy who's like, let's go through all 501 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: this hassle and catch a wolf down in Mexico and 502 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: breed it up and then maybe in twenty years we'll 503 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: have something. So when it came to be that that 504 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: you were identifying land. When I say you, I'm using 505 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: it loosely. It wasn't that you were going to find 506 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: a ranch big enough to do this, oh now. And 507 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: even so we set up on Forest service land and 508 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: even that, uh, we had a rule where we would 509 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: remove them if they if they straight outside of the 510 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: HeLa and Apache National Forest. Yeah, so when they went 511 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: outside of that, we removed him. But we just just 512 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: brought him back into the middle, just brought him back 513 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 1: in the middle. Or unless they're killing cows and stuff 514 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: like that, and that's a death sense killing cows, well 515 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: not I mean if you kill quite a few of them, yeah, 516 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: that's a death sentence at that stage. But um so, anyways, 517 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: even that size of an area, which is really big, 518 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: was too small because wolves, you guys, really, I mean 519 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: you realize that after the fact it was too small. Yeah, yeah, 520 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: they were outside the boundary. We spent a lot of 521 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: time chasing wolves outside the boundary and that's kind of 522 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: inconsistent with recovery. So right now we have a broader 523 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: area that we put out. So right now wolves can 524 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: range anywhere south by forty in New Mexico and Arizona. 525 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: And being okay, yeah, what was what was the is 526 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: the e s A is the Endangered species eggs so 527 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: powerful that the Four Service had to say, okay, well sure, 528 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: I mean that's part of our mandate. Also is a 529 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: recovery or dangerous species. So we're partnered up with the 530 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: US Fish and Wildlife Service to implement the Endangered Species Act. 531 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: But the fun kind of comes into um, the work 532 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: is when you have multiple use objectives on the Four 533 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: Service land. You know, you've got livestock grazing, you've got 534 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: timber harvesting, you've got recreation, you've got all these activities 535 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: going on in public land. Plus now you're trying to 536 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: re establish and recover predator. That's where the heavy lifting 537 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: and work comes in. Yeah, I mean balancing out those 538 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: interests I imagine the most. So the two big not compromises, 539 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: the two big conflict areas that be hunters in a 540 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: general sense and then livestock producers absolutely who hold um, 541 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: who hold private property on the borders of this and 542 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: who hold grazing leases on the inside of it. Yeah, 543 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: probably a lot of the heavy lifting comes with our 544 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: livestock grazers and permitees trying to prevent the conflicts and 545 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: reduce the conflicts, and providing the communications with those folks 546 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: to let them better understand what's going on and what 547 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: to expect. That's that's where all the real challenges lie. Yeah, 548 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: how might those challenges manifest? I mean, like on on 549 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: a ground person level, what's the what's a common sort 550 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: of conflict that happens? Well, you know, the big conflicts 551 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: obviously is the direct depredation of livestock by the wolves 552 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: and trying to first of all, trying to find ways 553 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: to prevent that, and then when it does happen, UM, 554 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: working with the compensation programs to hi to try to 555 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: compensate these permitees that have losses and and there's some 556 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: good uh compensation programs in place to help help recover 557 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: some of those losses that do occur. Uh. Those compensations 558 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: programs are far from perfect, but they do provide a 559 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: way to compensate the permitees for losses that they could take. Um. 560 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: You know, and going into you guys like you had 561 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: to have known right the minute, like how many did 562 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: you let go the first time you let him go? 563 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: I was three packs and in the in march, and 564 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: how many were in a pack, you know, around five 565 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: uh some uh, well there was year LANs in some 566 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: an adult pair, so standard at that time, they were 567 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: getting ready to breed bread up, so they're gonna have 568 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: pups in April May. And they had no institutional memory 569 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: of hunting within that pack. They've been five they've been captive. Yeah, yeah, 570 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: they hadn't hunted at all. It's interesting because some of 571 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: the walls that came right out of captivity less than months, 572 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: some of their answers are saying, yeah, they kills an 573 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: elk right out of here, right out of the right 574 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: out of the gate. So it's kind of just they 575 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: just knew what they were up to. It's just programmed 576 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: into him. Right, So when they hit the ground, how 577 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: long how much time went by for someone's like, hey, 578 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: all sons of bitches killed my a cow. I think 579 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: we got through without an actual depredation. Yeah, so ninety 580 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: eight was a good year, but certainly every year since then, 581 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: how many been depredations? Well, so you kind of say 582 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: it on a per hundred wolf basis, right, because you 583 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: want to compare to other places, and you want to 584 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: compare year to year. So as a population grows, you 585 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: get more and more, so somewhere between twenty two fifty 586 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: cows on per one wolves. So it's a fairly significant 587 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:39,919 Speaker 1: depending on prices, they're killing two dollars worth of yeah, 588 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars with the property. So how many, Like, 589 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: what's the elk per hundred wolves? Elk per hundred wolves, 590 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: So it's it's four wolves per thousand elk in our 591 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: area right now that we're that we're roughly shooting for. 592 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: So when we did the world change? I mean, how many? 593 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,479 Speaker 1: How many? Okay, I got I got to think about 594 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: that one. But how many? And I remember this reading 595 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: is recently in the Northern Rockies a wolf how many 596 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: elk a wolf kills per year? So it's it's basically 597 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: around twelve to sixteen A wolf kills twelve to sixteen 598 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: elk year, and that's that's commonly referred to as cow 599 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: elk equivalents. So a lot of those that's not the 600 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: right number because a lot of them are calves that 601 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: are smaller that they kill and so you're just trying 602 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: to base them are bulls that are bigger, So you're 603 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: figuring a four pound animal right right, So you're trying 604 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: to get at standardized across something so uh, twelve to 605 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 1: sixteen out per year, so around like sixteen hundred, around 606 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,959 Speaker 1: six hundred elk annually, Yeah, killed by wolves right now 607 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: with the population of dred bols, how many how many 608 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: elk year hunters killing out of that same area? I 609 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: don't know. You would be a question for New Mexico 610 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: game of fish, but a lot more. Oh yeah, I 611 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: mean way way order magnitude more probably or seven Mexico's 612 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 1: got seventy. Well find it out. We find that out. Um. 613 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: So sort of an ironic point on that front talking 614 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: about elk too and the relationship between livestock production and 615 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: these different wildlife species that I think is worth dropping 616 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: in here is that we have we have places in 617 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: the state, including some of the producers around this border country, 618 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: who have direct conflict or at least perceived direct conflict 619 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: between cattle production and competition with wild free ranging elk. 620 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: So um. On the one hand, you have some folks 621 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: voicing up that, you know, the hunters who don't want 622 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: to compete with wolves for the elk they're trying to kill, 623 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: and you have ranchers who don't want wolves killing their cattle. 624 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: You also have ranchers who don't want elk competing with 625 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: their cattle. There's multiple angles. That's interesting. Have you guys 626 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: had of of permit holders, of people that hold grazing 627 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 1: permits on federally managed lands. Have you ever had someone say, 628 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: I lose more I'm losing more pounds of beef to 629 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: grass competition from elk. Then I'm losing pounds of beef 630 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: to direct consumption by wolves. Has anyone ever made that calculation? No, 631 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard that argument. I've I've 632 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: heard some ranchers say, you know, I don't tell anybody, 633 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: but I'm just happy if they kill elk. That's great. 634 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: I'm happy that the wolves are here killing elk, getting 635 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: rid of them. But in New Mexico, right, they have 636 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: a landowner tag things, so they get distributed elk tags 637 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: based on how much land they own as well, and 638 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: so that's kind of the the interchange. So lot of 639 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,240 Speaker 1: the livestock owners are also outfitters and guides or heavily 640 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: dependent on the elk as well, And so I get 641 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: into conversations with some of those guys in there, like 642 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: I don't want the wolves eating anything. Wolves got to 643 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: eat the same as worms. Right, all right, I gotta, 644 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: I gotta. I'm getting to be questions in my head here? 645 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: So does want to keep on ask? And that is behold, 646 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: don't don't answer yet, because I want to do no 647 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: one far. I forget. What all have they eaten that 648 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: you know about to date? Okay? Like what are they eating? 649 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: And while you sit on that one, what um? When 650 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: the when the reintroduction occurred, how universal was disapproval among 651 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: livestock producers who are running cattle on the recovery area 652 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: or private lands surrounding the recovery area. You know, that 653 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: was before my time. I've been in the program for 654 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: about three years now, but I would imagine it's pretty 655 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: consistent with what it is now. A general lack of 656 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: support for the recovery of the general lack of support. Yeah, 657 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: it's a it's a competition for them. It's perceived that 658 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: this large predator was taken off the landscape because it 659 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: was problematic for them, and then now the government wants 660 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: to put it back in. So it's it's hard for 661 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: them to come fully on board on supporting that. And 662 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: what would you say the same thing on the hunting community, 663 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 1: general lack of support or is it more mixed. It's 664 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 1: got to be more mixed. I would say it's definitely 665 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: more mixed. I said, on both sides. I'm not from here, 666 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: but I was in a state that had it. I said, 667 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: on both sides of it. One, I think it's immoral. 668 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: And I don't throw that word around very often, but 669 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: I think it's immoral to drive species to extinction. I 670 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: think it's like playing God with God's stuff, right, I 671 00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: guess like a grievous sin to know wingly eliminate a 672 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: species from Earth. Okay. On the other hand, I used 673 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: to hunt it. We hunted the area through its We 674 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: hunted an area that we started hunting in the Northern 675 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: Rockies the year of the reintroduction, and we within a 676 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: handful of years we were hunting one third as many 677 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: elk as we were when we started hunting it. Now 678 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: we got better all the time. So my brother he's 679 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: still he still hunts it. He still kills elk every year, 680 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: even though he's hunting the third as many as he 681 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: was before. But he's just like his knowledge of the 682 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: area has kept pace with the diminishment of the herds. 683 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: And of course you wait and hope that the elk, 684 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: get used to it and figure out how to deal 685 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: with him. Well, I think I think you can point 686 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 1: to different management units, different areas, and the whole gamut 687 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: of prey responses occurred with wolves being present there. So 688 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: it's not universally all of a sudden will show up 689 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: and you're driving out. That's different. That's the funny thing 690 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: always bring out with people, man, is like the funny 691 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: always bring out the people's like why does everybody Okay, 692 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,359 Speaker 1: dudes like me are always uh dudes, I merror eyes, like, ah, 693 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: the wolves are killing everything, but every wants to go 694 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: hunt in Alaska? Right, Alaska all the time? Alaska. Wolves 695 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: in Alaska occupied the ninety five or ninety six percent 696 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: of the historic range. So I'm like, if that's true, 697 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: why does everybody want to go hunt Alaska? You guys 698 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: should steer clear because it's full of damn wolves. Right. 699 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: So so there is like it's a little more complicated 700 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: than what people would have because everyone's waiting in line 701 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: to go up there, right, and they hope they see 702 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: a wolf, right, And so the area I mean, I'm 703 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: not sure the area of the year, but I worked 704 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: up there on on wolves shortly after the reintroduction in 705 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: Montana and then wyoming in those areas and kicked around 706 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: and um, you know, there was an incredibly hard winter. 707 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: There's wolves reintroduced, and they're harvesting the crap out of 708 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: cows in certain areas because they want to reduce the 709 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: number about so outside of Yellowstone. All three of those 710 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 1: things happened simultaneously. So people look at it through these 711 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: wolf colored glasses, right, So they're just, well, the only 712 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 1: thing that's changed is there's wolves. Well, there's a lot 713 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: of things that changed in that particular their thing. In 714 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: some areas wolves are there, elk are still high, same 715 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,439 Speaker 1: hunting stuff, and in other areas that's not the case. 716 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: So the more predators, so grizzly bears, wolves, lions, coyotes. 717 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: When you have the in humans, when you have the 718 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: complete suite of predators, right, you have more chance of 719 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: driving down populations of ungulets than you do. Uh, stay 720 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: down here where you don't have grizzly bears as one thing, 721 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: and you don't have heavy winter mortality is another thing. 722 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,839 Speaker 1: You have lions, you do have lions. We looked at 723 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: some stuff they did out of Idaho where they figured 724 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: they were losing pre wolves, they were losing thirty calves 725 00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: per hundred two lions, and when wolves came in, it 726 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: was they were losing a total of probably forty calves perred. 727 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: So they're losing ten calves per hundred for well, I mean, 728 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: it's like ballpark figures. But the way this is explained 729 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 1: to me is people were very accustomed to thirty calves 730 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: per It has always been that way, and they knew 731 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: what that looked like and what it felt like and 732 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: what it meant for harvest rates. But then when that 733 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: little extra chunk got carved out of there, it was 734 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: felt very acutely, and people then sort of blamed all 735 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: forty calves per hundred on this new thing rather than 736 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,919 Speaker 1: looking at it as a little addition, right, And it's 737 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 1: harder to recover, So it's you're a hunting If you're 738 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: a manager out there, right, you're used to saying, Okay, 739 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: I'm harvesting cows because I want to drive down the 740 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 1: olt population. I'm gonna drive it down. I'm gonna harvest cows. 741 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: And then okay, I'm gonna stop my heart cow harvest 742 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: because I wanted to go back up wolves predation. Predation 743 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: in general can slow that increase, right, So it's harder 744 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: to have this rapid rebound, rapid control kind of stuff 745 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: that you're used to having. We're just working at valve 746 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: and like right, right, So it's it's a different thing 747 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: that people have to get used to as well, because 748 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: the one thing you can control is is human harvest 749 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: out there and so open the Northern Rockies are still 750 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: shooting shiploads a cow out. Yeah, I like, I love hunting. 751 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: I have conversations all the time with people and I'm like, 752 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: if I if I thought reintroducing wolves was going to 753 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 1: permit me from hunting, I would have been against it 754 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: a long time ago. I love to hunt elk. I 755 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: love to hunt dare. I love being out there and 756 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,839 Speaker 1: doing that stuff. So that's that's important part of who 757 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: I am. But a thing that frustrates hunters, I think 758 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: is that you have some people you gotta get your 759 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: way that the extremes. Right. You got the guy who 760 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: is like they they're gonna will every last elk and 761 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: will be an elk left right, and then they're hand. 762 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: You've got people who, I swear it, they're trying to 763 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: tell us that wolves eat nuts and berries, right, you know, 764 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: and I feel like I hear in each of my ears, 765 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm hearing from like these two people. Wolves eat elk cows. 766 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,280 Speaker 1: So I mean that's what wolves a little bit of deer, 767 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: but the deer is a little bit a lot less 768 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: taken at least down here and in the Northern Rockies 769 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: where there's an elk deer. Why do they like elks 770 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: so much? They're just a perfect package. Man, It's just 771 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: they're in a good herd. You get to chase them, 772 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: and there's something falls behind, something's weak in that group. 773 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 1: So they they get them and they know where they are. 774 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: They like being in flat areas where wolves like to 775 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,760 Speaker 1: be and hunt. They like hunting that flat train. Wolves 776 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: like hunting flat train, sure, because it's you gotta run, 777 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: you're chasing them down, you know, So, um, flat trains better. 778 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,800 Speaker 1: Lions like the steep stuff, right, because it's more of 779 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,399 Speaker 1: a of an ambush hunt. Yeah, you know. I think 780 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,439 Speaker 1: the one trend I have seen has the at the 781 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: wolf population increases, the hunter community is becoming more involved 782 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 1: in the issue and more concerned. Um, but more concerned 783 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: about the increase of wolves. Are more concerned about help 784 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: of wolves out well, No, more concerned about how the 785 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:24,359 Speaker 1: wolf population is impacting their choice of of of prey, 786 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: the elk. So the one thing the program is doing 787 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 1: is um studies to help really understand what what it's 788 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,359 Speaker 1: doing to the population and the impacts. And I don't 789 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:36,919 Speaker 1: know what what is it? What do you guys feel 790 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,280 Speaker 1: that it is doing? Well, look, John, kind of speak 791 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: to that little bit more. Well right now, I mean 792 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 1: so far we haven't. There's no detectable impact. So that's 793 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,920 Speaker 1: what the state agencies say all the time, there's no 794 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: detectable impact. Well, that's that's a pretty significant change, right 795 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: to detect when you're talking two acre ten alc. If 796 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: you're talking Arizona or New Mexico. So you have you 797 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:04,400 Speaker 1: found it yet? No? Not unless I start going like 798 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: by unit by unit, it's gonna be tough. I just 799 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: haven't found it. You can't tell you tell me. You 800 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,919 Speaker 1: can't type in how many elk are killed in New 801 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 1: Mexico and come up with a number. Well, and it's 802 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: not all in New Mexico. It's just the greater HeLa right, 803 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 1: a unit by units. So, Carl, you don't just know 804 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: this in the like in your mind. I don't know 805 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,439 Speaker 1: that in my mind, and I think it's pretty hard 806 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,319 Speaker 1: to come up with an answer because and this this 807 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,240 Speaker 1: gets back to what you're saying about the mountaintop removal 808 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: and remediation work happening and kind of painting a picture 809 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: of what the landscape looks like. And for folks who 810 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with this chunk of ground that our experts 811 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: here are referring to in southwest New Mexico and eastern Arizona, 812 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: you're talking about some of the most remote, rugged country 813 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: in the lower forty eight. And it begins from the east. 814 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: You've got all the Leopold Wilderness, which is about a 815 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: quarter million acres, into the HeLa proper, which is somewhere 816 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: five seventies some thousand acres, and you've got the Blue 817 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 1: Range Wilderness west of that, and that butts up against 818 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: the state line. But then the wild land continues because 819 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,399 Speaker 1: you have the Blue Range primitive area that I know, Steve, 820 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,240 Speaker 1: you're familiar with west of the New Mexico Arizona state line, 821 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: which is kind of de facto wilderness um. And then 822 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: that's surrounded by some of the still most remote and 823 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: undeveloped National Forest System land. So you're talking about two 824 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,319 Speaker 1: different states. You're talking about a large number of game 825 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: management units for each of those states, UM, And right 826 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,760 Speaker 1: off the top of my head, I don't have a number, 827 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,240 Speaker 1: but I think for folks to kind of get this vision, 828 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 1: this image of how remote and wild the landscape is, 829 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: and a little anecdote to that. To that end, UM, 830 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,239 Speaker 1: there's a place there at the western side of the 831 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: HeLa wilderness. You guys maybe can help me fill in 832 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: the details, But it's known for having the best night 833 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: sky anywhere in the lower forty eight because you are 834 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 1: as far as you can be from an anthropogenic light source, 835 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: and the sky viewing is is deemed to be the 836 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: best anywhere in the lower forty eight because you're so remote. 837 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,720 Speaker 1: So this is a chunk of country that UM is massive, 838 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,479 Speaker 1: you know, ten thousand square miles. It includes these different 839 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: wilderness areas, UM. And it's a place where wolves have 840 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: been hot and elk for a lot longer than uh, 841 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: white dudes have been on the landscape. Yeah, they only missed, 842 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,520 Speaker 1: they missed, like what they missed thirty years of the action. 843 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: And even then you still had these stragglers coming up, 844 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,399 Speaker 1: you know, like you were referring to, and that great 845 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,839 Speaker 1: Cormick McCarthy book. So, I guess the a good way 846 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: to settle on it is so you're saying that the 847 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:50,439 Speaker 1: new Mexico fishing game, who and to generalize that as 848 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: a as A as A as a state agency with 849 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: the state that was generally uneasy with the introduction. They 850 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 1: have said that they haven't they haven't noticed. Uh, certainly 851 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: the Arizona game of fish has been they do, They've 852 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,600 Speaker 1: had a little bit more look at this, and they 853 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 1: say they haven't noticed an impact from molds. But the 854 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: wolves are a low number right now, so a hundred 855 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: and ten. So they fluctuate around and it dips, it 856 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: dips up and down with it. Johnny hovers around a hundred. Yeah, yeah, 857 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:26,040 Speaker 1: and so well for the last three three years, three 858 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: or four years, it's been around a hundred and you 859 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: guys don't feel you do do not feel that that's sustainable. 860 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: That's that's there can be more than that, And no 861 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,320 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, like like minimum sustainability. Like for instance, 862 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,840 Speaker 1: we we we spoke with a guy um with the 863 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,759 Speaker 1: USGS who was working on grizzly bear recovery in a 864 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: tri state area in the northern Rockies, and you know, 865 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of debate about how many of there are. 866 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 1: You know, I think the official number is six forty two. 867 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: Everyone agrees that there's more because they their counting system 868 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 1: is flawed and they all know it. So they're like, 869 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 1: sixty two probably more, or whatever the hell the number is. 870 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,319 Speaker 1: And he says, in his opinion, he's like, you could 871 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:19,799 Speaker 1: have that number living in that patch of ground for 872 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,920 Speaker 1: a hundred years. He's like, that area and that number 873 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: is a sustainable number in a sustainable area. Right, do 874 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: you feel that? Do you guys feel that one where 875 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,960 Speaker 1: they are now that they're too vulnerable or do you 876 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,359 Speaker 1: feel that you could have that for a hundred years? Well, 877 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,920 Speaker 1: so are our rule that we just put out. We 878 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,439 Speaker 1: said that our goal was three five in that big 879 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: area south of but they sold it in on. Our 880 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,279 Speaker 1: goal is to get to right now. Initially our goal 881 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,720 Speaker 1: was to get to a hundred, which was the initial 882 00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 1: thing that folks said wasn't recovery, and we were nice recovery. Well, 883 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,359 Speaker 1: I'm mixing up two different We can just throw out 884 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:13,400 Speaker 1: whatever random number three three is recovery. Uh, we haven't 885 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: defined recovery yet. We're just we're redoing the role and 886 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,320 Speaker 1: literally the draft should come out in a couple of weeks, 887 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 1: three or four weeks, and so you know, I can't 888 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: talk about that right now, but you are some of 889 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,759 Speaker 1: the definitions we're talking about, because I guess what I'm 890 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: referring to is well, in the case in the case 891 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:40,520 Speaker 1: of grizzly bears, um, when when looking at that number 892 00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: is you're you're sort of saying, like, have you achieved 893 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:49,720 Speaker 1: a sustainable population on a piece of habitat that seems 894 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:54,440 Speaker 1: stable where it's reasonable to assume that if we engage 895 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:59,760 Speaker 1: in business as usual, we would into the foreseeable future 896 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: not running new problem. No, I think if you have, 897 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: like with the Florida Panther, for a long time, we 898 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 1: were in a position where someone said, can this continue? 899 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 1: Can you have a population of twenty five lions in 900 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: South Florida? And the people said, no, right, this will 901 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,399 Speaker 1: not like there's no reason to think that in one 902 00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,160 Speaker 1: years will have twenty five lions in South Florida, or 903 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: however bad it got in South Florida before they supplemented 904 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: the population. So there's I mean, for recovery purposes, there's 905 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: what we referred to as a three arts, which is 906 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: a resilient population, which means there's enough of them out 907 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,759 Speaker 1: there too, you know, have Jeanette and to represent a 908 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,000 Speaker 1: population that's good and stable and all those kind of 909 00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:46,400 Speaker 1: statings is gonna survive. And then there's um redundancy, which 910 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 1: is there's multiple populations, so not all your eggs in 911 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,800 Speaker 1: one basket. So there's right now we have there's a 912 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,440 Speaker 1: reintroduction going on in Mexico the south of the border 913 00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,440 Speaker 1: that just started, and so that's h that's the redundancy 914 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,239 Speaker 1: that you would see. One it's less controversial there right, no, 915 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,920 Speaker 1: so equally, I mean they still kill and stuff like that. Um. 916 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: And then there's the representation is the third are which 917 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:18,600 Speaker 1: is genetically robust and um. You know it's across spread 918 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,440 Speaker 1: across the landscape to represent a fair amount of that 919 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,839 Speaker 1: historic landscape it's out there. So those are the things. 920 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,800 Speaker 1: So when you look at is that recovery, um, you 921 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 1: would say that that population probably is pretty resilient. It's 922 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,719 Speaker 1: enough of them to live on that landscape, and so 923 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 1: it maybe one population in the future that that works 924 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,919 Speaker 1: towards recovery. But there's more things that go into it. Right, 925 00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: So let me throw in a couple of additional details here, 926 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,880 Speaker 1: because you hear John using some of the qualifiers like 927 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,640 Speaker 1: probably and we think, and what we're talking about here, 928 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, the term for this is we run what's 929 00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:58,000 Speaker 1: called the population viability assessment. And essentially you never can 930 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,520 Speaker 1: say with certainty that at any point in time in 931 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,200 Speaker 1: the future you will still have that species in that place. 932 00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,960 Speaker 1: But you can be increasingly confident in the persistence of 933 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:14,080 Speaker 1: a species when you have more individuals and when you're 934 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,879 Speaker 1: talking about a shorter time frame. So it would be, 935 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,919 Speaker 1: for example, easier to say we are highly confident that 936 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,960 Speaker 1: we have a hundred wolves now, and if we keep 937 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,239 Speaker 1: a hundred wolves in three years, we'll still have a 938 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,320 Speaker 1: hundred wolves, as opposed to saying if we kept a 939 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,200 Speaker 1: hundred wolves on a landscape a hundred years from now, 940 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: we're less confident. So the two things that really play 941 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: into this risk number to throw out one hundred years 942 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,680 Speaker 1: because yeah, and a lot can change. I mean, a meteor, 943 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, you could hit something catastrophic could happen that 944 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,680 Speaker 1: would eliminate the animal. So there's never this certainty. So 945 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,279 Speaker 1: it's really a risk assessment and the degree of risk 946 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,560 Speaker 1: associated with extinction of a population. Um, you have more 947 00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,000 Speaker 1: confidence in your assessment of security in the near future 948 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,120 Speaker 1: er than in the long future. And when you have 949 00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,279 Speaker 1: more animals than less animals. Those are kind of some 950 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:09,080 Speaker 1: common basics. And then another point in this whole discussion 951 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 1: of population ecology, Um, you're familiar with the Allee effect. 952 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: All you ever hear about them? Heard the word but no, 953 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 1: I'm not okay. So just for the benefit of listeners 954 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,480 Speaker 1: who take an interest in wildlife ecology and science, it's 955 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,840 Speaker 1: a good place to throw this in. There's a gentleman 956 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 1: by the name of Warder Clyde Ali who came up 957 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: with this notion that kind of flies in the face 958 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: of one of the factors that we often take for 959 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,920 Speaker 1: granted and wildlife ecology, and that is the notion that 960 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,160 Speaker 1: as competition decreases, as the number of animals on the 961 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,280 Speaker 1: landscape of your species decreases, you do better. So we 962 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: talk about density dependence, right. The higher the higher density gets, 963 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,040 Speaker 1: the tougher competition is, so the less well in individual 964 00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,120 Speaker 1: animal will do. So the Allie effect, essentially is the 965 00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,520 Speaker 1: inverse of that, the notion that if you drive a 966 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,520 Speaker 1: population Asian down far enough, and it's a social species 967 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,880 Speaker 1: or a species that benefits from the existence of con specifics, 968 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,280 Speaker 1: you can push that species towards extinction, like like what 969 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,960 Speaker 1: you see with past exactly you're gonna have a billion 970 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,040 Speaker 1: or none. It's a classic example. So with passenger pigeons, 971 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: they think one of the key drivers was the fact 972 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,520 Speaker 1: that you needed these huge flocks in order to elicit 973 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:27,480 Speaker 1: normal reproductive behavior. And you had that last lonely passenger pigeon, Martha, 974 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:33,120 Speaker 1: dying in the Cincinnati Zoo I think it was September nine, um, 975 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:34,720 Speaker 1: and they tried, you know, they tried like hell to 976 00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: get that bird to breed when there were still other 977 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:41,200 Speaker 1: males around, but they lacked those massive flocks that elicited 978 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,160 Speaker 1: the breeding behavior. So that's a classic example of Alie effect. 979 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,240 Speaker 1: And this guy Ward or Clyde Alie, he did a 980 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,120 Speaker 1: lot of research looking at uh species that are a 981 00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: little less sexy than wolves or passenger pigeons. He did 982 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: a lot of work with like goldfish, for example, where 983 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,360 Speaker 1: the regurgitation of food from one goldfish in the tank 984 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 1: can be beneficial to the other gold fish and goldfish 985 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 1: rooting up around the bottom like like carp are churning 986 00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,760 Speaker 1: up food that's available. So if you think about wolves 987 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,160 Speaker 1: in their predatory behavior, there are another species where if 988 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:11,960 Speaker 1: you push them to the point where they're no longer 989 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 1: able to locate pack members and function as that superorganism 990 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:23,640 Speaker 1: and find and kill prey through that social structure, you 991 00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,120 Speaker 1: may have the potential to pushing beyond that point. In 992 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,919 Speaker 1: contrast to grizzly bears as we've been talking about, where 993 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, you need obviously two to tango in terms 994 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,920 Speaker 1: of reproduction. But the predatory behavior has nothing to do 995 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,720 Speaker 1: with depending on pack mads. In fact, they seem to 996 00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,680 Speaker 1: kind of like a little loneliness the breeding age females. Yeah, 997 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,520 Speaker 1: they're interesting. Part for wolves is they're good at finding 998 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,760 Speaker 1: each other, long long distance dispersals and that kind of stuff. 999 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: And most of the packs just start out as two 1000 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,680 Speaker 1: animals and then you have pops. It's just a family 1001 00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:59,520 Speaker 1: group in their offspring and so that's how the packs establish. 1002 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:04,360 Speaker 1: That's what are Do you have any sense um? I 1003 01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 1: guess we should finish this part of it up before 1004 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 1: we get I want to talk about what they eat 1005 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: and why they eat it, how they find it. Can 1006 01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,760 Speaker 1: I slip in a question that that's relevant here is 1007 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,440 Speaker 1: that we and I figured we would hit on it, 1008 01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,680 Speaker 1: But that number jumping around or not jumping around, but 1009 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,920 Speaker 1: being moved or reevaluated from a hundred and three, that's 1010 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,360 Speaker 1: got I think that's probably one of the most contentious 1011 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,440 Speaker 1: topics of of all with wools, isn't it. Well, at 1012 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,240 Speaker 1: least I hear it a lot where they're like, well, 1013 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,280 Speaker 1: at first it was gonna be fifty, yeah, moving to goal. 1014 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,880 Speaker 1: But that's serious stuff, man, the gold poles moving is 1015 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,200 Speaker 1: a real thing, right right, right, right, So I'd just 1016 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,960 Speaker 1: like to hear like one especially, you've probably been sent 1017 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,880 Speaker 1: how you guys handle that, Well, that's actually more of 1018 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:51,120 Speaker 1: a Fish and Wildlife Service number that but yeah, okay, 1019 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,640 Speaker 1: so let me ask this like, like to what to 1020 01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,520 Speaker 1: what you're under staying when the first time when one hundred, Yeah, 1021 01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,760 Speaker 1: that wasn't like that they would d list at one, right, 1022 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,240 Speaker 1: that was just a number, like an objective. That was 1023 01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,479 Speaker 1: just an interim goal. It was the wildest imagination. They said, 1024 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,360 Speaker 1: that's not recovery, and so that's what we're trying to 1025 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,000 Speaker 1: define right now. So that's the difference. You're trying to 1026 01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,440 Speaker 1: set the goal post for the first time, right for 1027 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:22,200 Speaker 1: what d when d listing will occur. People misconstrued then well, yeah, 1028 01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,440 Speaker 1: because they that's one of the areas in which not 1029 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,920 Speaker 1: not the agency, but it's one of the areas in 1030 01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:35,400 Speaker 1: which the public becomes obstructionist. Is when recovering populations reach 1031 01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,920 Speaker 1: what we all agree recovery was supposed to look like. 1032 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,240 Speaker 1: Where all the you know that I was here this 1033 01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:46,200 Speaker 1: term so much, we're all the stakeholders have said, okay, 1034 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:49,840 Speaker 1: we agree that that one hundred or you know, one 1035 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:54,080 Speaker 1: thousand of X species. At that point, everyone here now 1036 01:01:54,120 --> 01:02:00,200 Speaker 1: agrees that they will be delisted and could go act 1037 01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,440 Speaker 1: the state management and they could be open to hunting 1038 01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,840 Speaker 1: whatever the states decided to do. And then it starts 1039 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,520 Speaker 1: getting up to where there's a thousand of said animals, 1040 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:14,800 Speaker 1: and people start filing shiploads of lawsuits and then prevent 1041 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,560 Speaker 1: any dream of ever conducting the delisting. It's not the 1042 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:23,040 Speaker 1: agency's fault because the agency could be petitioning for the delisting. Well, 1043 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 1: the agency very much wanted to de list wolves in 1044 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,400 Speaker 1: the Northern Rockies, for instance, the fishing wildlife, So they 1045 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,080 Speaker 1: wind up taking the blame for actions of people who 1046 01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,120 Speaker 1: are going to use who wind up using the e 1047 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,880 Speaker 1: s A not for its intended purpose, but use it 1048 01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,360 Speaker 1: as the way to protect animals that they like to 1049 01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,520 Speaker 1: look at pictures of our natural geographic from any possible 1050 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,760 Speaker 1: chance of human exploitation. But it's our job Fish and 1051 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,520 Speaker 1: Wildlife Services to do a better job in the process 1052 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:53,240 Speaker 1: so we don't lose on the biology. It's the process 1053 01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,920 Speaker 1: where we lose in court. So we didn't check some 1054 01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:01,000 Speaker 1: boxes there or something nick They nip pick horribly, and 1055 01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,640 Speaker 1: so that's where the agency can do better. But they're not. 1056 01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,480 Speaker 1: And oftentimes the lawsuits aren't even challenging. The lawsuits aren't 1057 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: challenging the the under the like the key principles. They're 1058 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,560 Speaker 1: not saying like, oh, in fact, one thousand of these 1059 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:20,680 Speaker 1: isn't enough. They'll go after like procedural things exactly exactly. 1060 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,520 Speaker 1: That's where like oh, no, you need to file the 1061 01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 1: you filed A, uh everyone, or you filed B first 1062 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,160 Speaker 1: and you didn't file A and you're supposed to file 1063 01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:32,960 Speaker 1: A four B. So therefore we're gonna block this whole 1064 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:34,600 Speaker 1: thing for a decade. Yeah. The big thing in the 1065 01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:38,800 Speaker 1: Northern Rockies was significant portion of range. So when they 1066 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,120 Speaker 1: we first tried to do it, we tried to delist 1067 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,520 Speaker 1: Washington and Oregon together with Idaho and Wyoming in Montana, 1068 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,760 Speaker 1: and they said, well, you didn't analyze the wolves cover 1069 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,200 Speaker 1: a significant portion of their range in that area and 1070 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,080 Speaker 1: so their habitat range and so it went down on 1071 01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:01,000 Speaker 1: that among other things. And I don't know, no, but 1072 01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,200 Speaker 1: but I feel for you because that's one of the 1073 01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:07,280 Speaker 1: ways in which I feel that public um public blame. 1074 01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,720 Speaker 1: Right when when when again, like dudes like me, like 1075 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:14,320 Speaker 1: hunting guys or whatever, when they look and they get 1076 01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,479 Speaker 1: pissed about how something's not going the way they want, 1077 01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:22,680 Speaker 1: they're not, they don't usually blame like obstructionist groups who 1078 01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,000 Speaker 1: are what I know this is you know, I'm not. 1079 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,120 Speaker 1: This is not these guys in the room talking. This 1080 01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,360 Speaker 1: is me talking one obstructionist groups who are manipulating the law. Like, 1081 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,480 Speaker 1: that's not who gets the blame. The blame often falls. 1082 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:37,880 Speaker 1: I feel like in the wrong place. The government is 1083 01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:43,240 Speaker 1: good to blame. No, no usually questions, but but the 1084 01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 1: uh SO is all right. Just to get back on track, 1085 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:50,160 Speaker 1: is if the or whatever the hell number they're gonna 1086 01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,080 Speaker 1: come up with the number, is that gonna be the 1087 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:57,960 Speaker 1: number that is regarded as an acceptable recovery objective? At 1088 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,440 Speaker 1: which point it would be reasonable for people to expect 1089 01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,760 Speaker 1: the delisting process to occur very much. So, so that's 1090 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:07,680 Speaker 1: the number that we're going through going through a p 1091 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,040 Speaker 1: v A like what Garl talked about earlier, and it's 1092 01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,560 Speaker 1: it's reasonable to think it would fall somewhere in the 1093 01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,240 Speaker 1: range of around yeah, somewhere in that. I mean for 1094 01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:22,280 Speaker 1: one population, and there's consideration on where other populations are, 1095 01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,520 Speaker 1: and there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes into that. 1096 01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:29,000 Speaker 1: How well the populations are connected, how well dispersal happens 1097 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,240 Speaker 1: between those populations is a genetic component that you've got 1098 01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,480 Speaker 1: to think about. And so there's a whole bunch of 1099 01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:37,240 Speaker 1: things that go into that. And so me sitting here 1100 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:42,760 Speaker 1: talking it would be a poor representation of the overall 1101 01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,120 Speaker 1: the overall plan. Yeah, that will come out and so 1102 01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,800 Speaker 1: it'd be much better to read it and really digest it. 1103 01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,280 Speaker 1: So down here, I know in other areas, um with 1104 01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,880 Speaker 1: other species that are going through e S A recovery. 1105 01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:01,720 Speaker 1: And we should point out that, uh, when something makes 1106 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,080 Speaker 1: the list, when someone gets S, something gets e S 1107 01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,960 Speaker 1: A listing, that does not generally mean that they're like 1108 01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:15,960 Speaker 1: they got it. Made two of this two percent of 1109 01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,360 Speaker 1: species that get listed under the s A listing, only 1110 01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:22,600 Speaker 1: two percent get delisted because they recovered right now, I 1111 01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,840 Speaker 1: mean it's a long process. It's a long process to 1112 01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 1: get them to that stage, for sure. I'm just I'm 1113 01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:28,840 Speaker 1: just saying, it's like there's been a handful. Like no, 1114 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,280 Speaker 1: there's been some notable cases, and it's not even the 1115 01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:35,000 Speaker 1: fault of the people commissioned, but sometimes they've been uh, 1116 01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,440 Speaker 1: things have been listed and then it turned out that 1117 01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,960 Speaker 1: they were gone. Right, You've had things listed and then 1118 01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,120 Speaker 1: they find other populations or definition change and they get 1119 01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,120 Speaker 1: de listed that way. But it's only like a handful 1120 01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,600 Speaker 1: of things, only some normable examples, being like bald eagle, 1121 01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:55,160 Speaker 1: gray wolf, paragan falcon, American alligator. But if you look, 1122 01:06:55,360 --> 01:07:01,280 Speaker 1: there are I think over two thousand species they've gotten 1123 01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:05,520 Speaker 1: es A listing and a handful. What I'm getting at 1124 01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 1: is my feeling is that when the e s A 1125 01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:14,440 Speaker 1: works real well and we get recovery, I would think 1126 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,080 Speaker 1: people would be dancing in the streets I went to, 1127 01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,280 Speaker 1: but they generally, they generally don't. They generally want to 1128 01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:22,880 Speaker 1: say like, no, it's not you know, I went to 1129 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:29,000 Speaker 1: a paragan falcon recovery party. So for the the listing 1130 01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: of the Parragan Falcon, which my father was involved in 1131 01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,040 Speaker 1: that recovery, and yeah, yeah, that was we were excited. 1132 01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:40,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was a great thing. So as biologists, 1133 01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,360 Speaker 1: as you celebrate that, you want nothing more in your career. 1134 01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:46,760 Speaker 1: I didn't get to go to a Northern Rockies recovery 1135 01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:54,880 Speaker 1: party because it took so many legal everyone was that 1136 01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,960 Speaker 1: was It was so sad the way that just everyone. 1137 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:07,760 Speaker 1: It seems like everyone got burned. Yeah, it was. It 1138 01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:09,960 Speaker 1: was a tough deal going back and forth like that. 1139 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,880 Speaker 1: And then I mean, but the good part was that 1140 01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,559 Speaker 1: Montana and Idaho were ready to manage wolves and their 1141 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,519 Speaker 1: plans were acceptable. And so even though it went through 1142 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,000 Speaker 1: Congress and it's not the standard way of delisting a group, 1143 01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,599 Speaker 1: as we were allowed to celebrate that and turn it 1144 01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:33,560 Speaker 1: over to the states earlier than uh some of the 1145 01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:37,120 Speaker 1: stuff that was holding back, so some the Wyoming Planet 1146 01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:41,320 Speaker 1: in particular, was just got to prave through courts this year. 1147 01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,599 Speaker 1: Yeah that's great. So now they're delisted up there, and 1148 01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:48,840 Speaker 1: that's your problem, no, buddy. Yeah, all the folks, all 1149 01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,000 Speaker 1: the folks that worked on it, though they're all retired 1150 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 1: moved away and stuff like that. So no, no party. 1151 01:08:55,840 --> 01:09:02,120 Speaker 1: So what like what let's say, um, let's say someone draw. 1152 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:06,439 Speaker 1: Someone comes up this idea that oh god, there's no 1153 01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,840 Speaker 1: question do you guys use distinct population segments down here? 1154 01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,920 Speaker 1: So are you treating the current recovery area as a 1155 01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,760 Speaker 1: distinct population segment or isn't it far enough along because 1156 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,799 Speaker 1: we don't have two segments. Wow, So we just listed 1157 01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:23,280 Speaker 1: the subspecies. So you can list a species, a subspecies, 1158 01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,240 Speaker 1: or a distinct population segment. So what we did is 1159 01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,080 Speaker 1: we listed the Mexican gray wolf as a subspecies. But 1160 01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:31,800 Speaker 1: you might later need to carve off a distinct population 1161 01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,120 Speaker 1: segment if this population hits recovery and then you have 1162 01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:40,040 Speaker 1: another population in infancy somewhere. You need to draw the 1163 01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:43,280 Speaker 1: distinction between the two. Well you could, you could, but 1164 01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:48,240 Speaker 1: the idea is to um recognize that in different ways. 1165 01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,479 Speaker 1: So part of the problem in the Northern Rockies says 1166 01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:55,240 Speaker 1: when they went to delist things, then they're drawing the DPS, 1167 01:09:55,240 --> 01:10:00,439 Speaker 1: so they're designating a species to be delisted. Right. The 1168 01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,639 Speaker 1: idea is that you designate a species, you go through 1169 01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:09,000 Speaker 1: recovery planning, and then you delist that species after it's recovered, 1170 01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:11,479 Speaker 1: so you want to designate it early on. You don't 1171 01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,160 Speaker 1: want to designate a DPS two D list. Well, I 1172 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,080 Speaker 1: know that's a big that's a problem that's happening with 1173 01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:21,200 Speaker 1: the grizzly bear situation is they listed the species and 1174 01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:23,479 Speaker 1: then that's kind of where it will get hung up 1175 01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,000 Speaker 1: in court. Probably do list of the species and then 1176 01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:30,920 Speaker 1: later they said, man, we've achieved way above recovery in 1177 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:35,320 Speaker 1: this chunk of ground the size of Indiana. Let's delist 1178 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:39,760 Speaker 1: this chunk right And it's like that, you know, I 1179 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:44,040 Speaker 1: got you on a technicality because you can't. So yeah, 1180 01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:46,160 Speaker 1: that's a problem with it. Right. So you want to 1181 01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:50,280 Speaker 1: have the foresight to create population to units are alternatives 1182 01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:54,320 Speaker 1: on how you can reduce it to threaten, So make 1183 01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,520 Speaker 1: it a threatened species and reduce some of the restrictions 1184 01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:01,920 Speaker 1: over range wide over a bigger area. And um, so 1185 01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:04,400 Speaker 1: that's you know, you want to plan and have that 1186 01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:08,240 Speaker 1: foresight into your plan on how you think you should 1187 01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,639 Speaker 1: d less area too and you avoid problems going forward. 1188 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:19,519 Speaker 1: So how much suitable habitat? Um? How much suitable habitat 1189 01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,960 Speaker 1: is there? Like, because it's it's I think it's helpful 1190 01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,240 Speaker 1: on these kind of things to think about, where could 1191 01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:28,880 Speaker 1: they be? And so again, just to keep returning to 1192 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:32,040 Speaker 1: the grizzly bear situation because I know it well and 1193 01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:34,559 Speaker 1: it sort of provides a parameter to think about. This 1194 01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:38,920 Speaker 1: is um. There are there are some people, well meaning, 1195 01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:43,400 Speaker 1: knowledgeable people who look at the grizzly bear situation and 1196 01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:47,639 Speaker 1: they and they feel pretty confident that as far as 1197 01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:54,240 Speaker 1: suitable habitat goes, we've filled it up in the great 1198 01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 1: in the in in Idaho, well like areas of the 1199 01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:59,320 Speaker 1: g y E. They and some people argue like, well, no, 1200 01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:01,719 Speaker 1: because there's any more mountain ranges. But there's some people 1201 01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:05,320 Speaker 1: who say, like, um, anywhere else, conflict is going to 1202 01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:09,759 Speaker 1: be so high that this really is the suitable patch 1203 01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,880 Speaker 1: of ground. And we've filled the suitable patch of ground 1204 01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:17,400 Speaker 1: as full as it can fill. Right. If you look 1205 01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,920 Speaker 1: at the Mexican gray wolf, how much and I'm sure 1206 01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,479 Speaker 1: there's varying definitions of it, how much suitable ground could 1207 01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:29,280 Speaker 1: there be? Oh a lot? So there's enough to where 1208 01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,720 Speaker 1: it's not gonna limit recovery in terms of numbers to 1209 01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,800 Speaker 1: get to a viable population. So that between Mexico and 1210 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,120 Speaker 1: and and the US keep forgetting Mexico. So between those 1211 01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:42,080 Speaker 1: two there's gonna be enough. And the other thing is 1212 01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:46,200 Speaker 1: wolves are pretty habitat generalists, so they're not as specific 1213 01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:50,679 Speaker 1: as grizzly bears are and they don't kill people. So yeah, 1214 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,679 Speaker 1: that's that's a flaw. That's a flaw on the grizzly 1215 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:58,400 Speaker 1: bear of pheno type. So uh so, I mean they 1216 01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,360 Speaker 1: can they can be closer to put there and kind 1217 01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:03,360 Speaker 1: of wiggle in and out of some of these areas 1218 01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:08,519 Speaker 1: and still be okay. So outskirts of Realm Italy, for instance, 1219 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:13,200 Speaker 1: there's wolves. Um So, so the suitable habitat doesn't become 1220 01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:15,240 Speaker 1: as big of an issue. It's not because when you 1221 01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,599 Speaker 1: draw a suitable habitat for kyle's pretty much to draw 1222 01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:20,240 Speaker 1: a big circle around the whole country. Call like just 1223 01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:22,519 Speaker 1: follow the coastlines with your pencil and you kind of 1224 01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:24,519 Speaker 1: have drawn it. Wow, we don't want to go that far. 1225 01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:28,600 Speaker 1: But it's not it's not as much. Yeah, they're not. 1226 01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,920 Speaker 1: They're not as like prone to immediate trouble. Yeah when 1227 01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:35,479 Speaker 1: they fall outside of it. Yeah, because suitable habitat for 1228 01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,479 Speaker 1: the bears isn't a matter of where they'll find enough food, 1229 01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:41,439 Speaker 1: just where they'll have a reasonable chance to go through 1230 01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:45,479 Speaker 1: their lives without winding up in a in in in 1231 01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:49,880 Speaker 1: a direct, possibly catastrophic interaction with the human being. I 1232 01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:53,320 Speaker 1: worked on grizzly bears up in Wyoming outside of Jackson, 1233 01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,360 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, bears of the true denizens of wilderness. 1234 01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,280 Speaker 1: So a lot of times it's tied to wolves. I 1235 01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,920 Speaker 1: would argue it's more bears because they need to be uh, 1236 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,479 Speaker 1: you know, pretty limited in terms of people for that 1237 01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:10,839 Speaker 1: interaction with grizzly bears specifically, not black bears, but grizzly 1238 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,240 Speaker 1: bears specifically. And so I always have a saucepart my 1239 01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,160 Speaker 1: spot for grizzly bears. I'll go up to Yellowstone and 1240 01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:20,920 Speaker 1: I'll see some wolves and it'll be like, well, yeah, 1241 01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,960 Speaker 1: but I like watching that grizzly bears on top of 1242 01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:29,519 Speaker 1: stuff watching them. Yeah. Um, so you can't really it's 1243 01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,320 Speaker 1: impossible to say step will habitet. But when you draw 1244 01:14:32,479 --> 01:14:35,840 Speaker 1: the line, there's gonna be like a no go zone 1245 01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:41,720 Speaker 1: that'll probably always exist. Yeah, that's I mean, when you 1246 01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:46,599 Speaker 1: do a non essential experimental population, right you set up 1247 01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:49,680 Speaker 1: your rules in that area and it's actually area specific. 1248 01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,120 Speaker 1: So right now, are areas everywhere south of iforty. You 1249 01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:55,400 Speaker 1: have these things that you can do that you can 1250 01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,160 Speaker 1: you're out there. So north of I forty right now 1251 01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,559 Speaker 1: we say we'll go at those wolves because we don't 1252 01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,320 Speaker 1: want the wolves from the reintroduction being in this area 1253 01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:07,640 Speaker 1: or causing more not having those relaxed restrictions. But it 1254 01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:10,559 Speaker 1: wouldn't be okay for anyone just to run into one 1255 01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:12,800 Speaker 1: and shoot it. North to I forty. Now it's a 1256 01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:15,920 Speaker 1: fully protected and it's a fully endangered species north to 1257 01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:19,640 Speaker 1: I forty if it shows up there, it's based on 1258 01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:24,400 Speaker 1: where they carries full ees A protections. But you also 1259 01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,200 Speaker 1: have the ability to go round it up and bring 1260 01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,920 Speaker 1: it backward blocks. Yeah, through fish and Wildlife Service permits, 1261 01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:34,680 Speaker 1: but only really only we have that ability at that stage. 1262 01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:37,200 Speaker 1: Uh do you ever hang out with the trappers? I 1263 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,360 Speaker 1: am a trapper? Where do you guys use padded padded 1264 01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:44,000 Speaker 1: like double long springs or yeah, we use uh number 1265 01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:47,760 Speaker 1: four's is a primary thing? Or fourteens? And what's your 1266 01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:51,479 Speaker 1: typical set that you make? Uh? Dirt hole flat? Any 1267 01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:55,240 Speaker 1: of them scotton yarn? Hey, it doesn't. It's more about 1268 01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:59,760 Speaker 1: where than than what. They're smart about it. The other hand, 1269 01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,920 Speaker 1: they on onto it yet. No, there's wolves are tougher 1270 01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:05,280 Speaker 1: than you catch a lot of coyotes and kyotes are 1271 01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:08,400 Speaker 1: generally considered the tougher ones to catch by trappers out there, 1272 01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:12,080 Speaker 1: and uh, wolves are tougher just because they're fewer of them, 1273 01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:15,839 Speaker 1: less dance. Right, So two square miles for a pack, 1274 01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:19,000 Speaker 1: and so you're trapping over a big broad area and 1275 01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:21,400 Speaker 1: trying to get them to step in one square inch. 1276 01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:24,200 Speaker 1: So what's your general like, what's your general approach on 1277 01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,280 Speaker 1: getting on one? Like you start out where you get 1278 01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:29,280 Speaker 1: a sighting. Yeah, so you just I mean, I mean 1279 01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:32,920 Speaker 1: howling looking on the ground, looking for tracks, looking for scat, 1280 01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,360 Speaker 1: just looking trails roads, just like you would with a 1281 01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,479 Speaker 1: coyote kind of thing, and and looking for those travel 1282 01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,920 Speaker 1: pass and eventually you do some sets you see where 1283 01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:46,280 Speaker 1: they're coming and going, both directional travel, and then that's 1284 01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,599 Speaker 1: that's where I'm gonna set a trap sets If you're 1285 01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,360 Speaker 1: trying to catch one, how many sets are you putting out? 1286 01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:56,559 Speaker 1: Just doesn't So it's not longlining because you care about 1287 01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:59,040 Speaker 1: each one. You want it to be. You're you're worried 1288 01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:00,920 Speaker 1: about your things. So we do a lot of things 1289 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,920 Speaker 1: to make sure that that animals Okay, you're checking every morning. 1290 01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:09,560 Speaker 1: You're you're kinda you have drags on them, so and 1291 01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,720 Speaker 1: you have springs in line in the chain and so 1292 01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:17,240 Speaker 1: all those things. If it's too cold overnight, will monitor 1293 01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:21,519 Speaker 1: every hour with trap monitors. Yeah, so they don't freeze 1294 01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:23,839 Speaker 1: a foot or anything like that. So we're very careful 1295 01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,280 Speaker 1: with that because each one there's an endangered species. So 1296 01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,160 Speaker 1: what's your preferred bait when you go to do the 1297 01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:33,360 Speaker 1: dirt hole set? The dirt hole set like skunk kind 1298 01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:37,680 Speaker 1: of stuff, but there's also a bobcat kind of glandler 1299 01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:42,880 Speaker 1: round up ground up. Bobcat works really good. So yeah, 1300 01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,960 Speaker 1: there's a reason why wolfers and all the stories, right, 1301 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:48,920 Speaker 1: they come back and they stunk, Right, It's because I 1302 01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:52,840 Speaker 1: got bait all over yourself back, dude. We used to 1303 01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,160 Speaker 1: make some crazy concoctions for bait, you know. We call 1304 01:17:56,200 --> 01:18:00,760 Speaker 1: it tainted bait. Where you take jar cubaut meat and 1305 01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:01,960 Speaker 1: put in a jar and leave it out in the 1306 01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:05,200 Speaker 1: sun and just at the right minute, like it's starting 1307 01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:06,800 Speaker 1: to smell a certain way and get like a coat 1308 01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,080 Speaker 1: of oil, and then you bury it in the ground, 1309 01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,479 Speaker 1: put glycerin in it to slow the decomposition, and bury 1310 01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,160 Speaker 1: it in the ground. Dig it back up. I hope 1311 01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,639 Speaker 1: there weren't any maggots in it. Yeah, crazy bait stuff 1312 01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:20,840 Speaker 1: man kind of an art form, but kind of a 1313 01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:25,320 Speaker 1: an early art form. So a quick anecdote here on 1314 01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:28,400 Speaker 1: the wolves north of I forty deal and this relates 1315 01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:33,360 Speaker 1: back to this blurry distinction among subspecies. Um, we had 1316 01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:37,640 Speaker 1: a we had a wolf killed in southern Utah that 1317 01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:41,559 Speaker 1: du yeah, by a hunter who mistook it for a coyote. 1318 01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,840 Speaker 1: And this was in early well about a year prior 1319 01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:50,160 Speaker 1: to that, that same wolf had been collared in Wyoming 1320 01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:54,160 Speaker 1: and it had been seen on several occasions in northern 1321 01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:58,920 Speaker 1: Arizona close to the Grand Canyon. And it's notable this 1322 01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:01,559 Speaker 1: is a female wolf in mind, covering hundreds of miles 1323 01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,880 Speaker 1: between Wyoming and the Rim. Yeah, I was trapping for 1324 01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:08,240 Speaker 1: that animal, trying to catch it, So trying for aware 1325 01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:11,240 Speaker 1: north rim of the Grand Canyon. So that was the 1326 01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:14,840 Speaker 1: first wolf known to be in northern Arizona and something 1327 01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:18,640 Speaker 1: like seventy years And maybe you could share some more 1328 01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:20,760 Speaker 1: of the details on that account. But I remember when 1329 01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,040 Speaker 1: that was kind of circulating and we were having meetings 1330 01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:25,360 Speaker 1: like at Arizona and people are like no, no, that 1331 01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,960 Speaker 1: that's probably just like a domestic wolf that got out somebody. 1332 01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:31,080 Speaker 1: Probably there's a wolf breeder up here who has him 1333 01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:34,800 Speaker 1: in captivity on lo and behold it was. That's the 1334 01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:37,840 Speaker 1: thing is. It's like we went up there and there's 1335 01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:40,840 Speaker 1: a single wolf. So a single wolf, you're trapping for 1336 01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,080 Speaker 1: one in a big wide area and you're like, oh, gosh, 1337 01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,160 Speaker 1: I got no shot. You got to get a step 1338 01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,760 Speaker 1: in tin square inches in somewhere between Wyoming and the 1339 01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:56,160 Speaker 1: North m So there was a pile of buffalo that 1340 01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:58,920 Speaker 1: we're run over by a UPS driver right on the 1341 01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:02,400 Speaker 1: entrance to the North Rim. They have an honorable buffalo 1342 01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:04,680 Speaker 1: population up there on the North Rim of also a 1343 01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:07,280 Speaker 1: little bit controversial, yeah, because they have cows in them 1344 01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:11,880 Speaker 1: and they have some cow DNA and and there it's 1345 01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:15,960 Speaker 1: the there is the park that doesn't like them, right, 1346 01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:17,639 Speaker 1: the park wants to get rid of They don't want 1347 01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:19,519 Speaker 1: them in the in the park because they aren't part 1348 01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:23,360 Speaker 1: of the natural system there, or maybe they are and 1349 01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:28,960 Speaker 1: all that. So anyways, say the UPS driver tried to 1350 01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,519 Speaker 1: do the park's work, it ran over about it, and 1351 01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,680 Speaker 1: this wolf landed in this area and so it'd come 1352 01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:37,400 Speaker 1: down and they walked by people, and he walked down 1353 01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:41,880 Speaker 1: the road, eat on this pile, giant pile of buffalo carcasses, 1354 01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:44,360 Speaker 1: and then walk back up to its betting area. And 1355 01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:46,720 Speaker 1: so people got photos of it. People were calling in 1356 01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:50,000 Speaker 1: and you're like, this just doesn't sound like a wild 1357 01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:53,559 Speaker 1: wolf that came all the way down from Wyoming through 1358 01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:57,040 Speaker 1: Utah and now landed in Arizona. Why didn't get shot 1359 01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:00,439 Speaker 1: somewhere along the way where it's this observed ruble. But 1360 01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:02,920 Speaker 1: we went up there because some of the photos were 1361 01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 1: really convincing. In one of the photos actually showed a 1362 01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:09,439 Speaker 1: radio collar. We were pretty pretty clearly a radio collar 1363 01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:13,439 Speaker 1: from our stuff, and so, um, we went up there 1364 01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:15,320 Speaker 1: and we we saw the wolf. So you go up 1365 01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,280 Speaker 1: there and set up a camp. Yeah, well we went 1366 01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:22,360 Speaker 1: and stayed with the park Service, and and uh we were. 1367 01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,400 Speaker 1: We went up there and the first thing, we went out, 1368 01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:27,360 Speaker 1: like the first morning, really early in the morning, just 1369 01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,439 Speaker 1: to follow the pattern of people seeing it. And sure enough, 1370 01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:33,160 Speaker 1: there it was. And so we had two things. We 1371 01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:36,519 Speaker 1: wanted to get DNA from the wolf one way or another, 1372 01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,479 Speaker 1: either capture it or whatever. And so that first day 1373 01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:44,120 Speaker 1: it pooped and we went out there and scooped up 1374 01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:46,519 Speaker 1: a little bit of the from the outside of the 1375 01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:52,280 Speaker 1: intestinal cell walls. Sintestinal cells slough off on the Yeah, 1376 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:54,360 Speaker 1: so we had the DNA right off the get go, 1377 01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:57,240 Speaker 1: and then we set traps right along the path that 1378 01:21:57,280 --> 01:21:59,960 Speaker 1: it kind of walked around, and we scattered out some traps. 1379 01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:01,880 Speaker 1: So we had a dark gun that if you get 1380 01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:03,760 Speaker 1: close to a wolf, you can shoot a dart at it, 1381 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,360 Speaker 1: but wasn't the case that day. And so, I mean, 1382 01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:10,080 Speaker 1: it came close to our traps a couple of different times, 1383 01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:15,120 Speaker 1: but it's just a single wolf wandering. Yeah, so we 1384 01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:17,880 Speaker 1: we came really close. I remember one time I saw 1385 01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:19,600 Speaker 1: it in early in the morning. I saw it in 1386 01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,080 Speaker 1: exactly the same spot. So this is just after we 1387 01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:24,599 Speaker 1: had scattered out the track. So I was like, well, 1388 01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do exactly what I did the other day, 1389 01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:31,640 Speaker 1: and that wolf will wander right into our sets. So 1390 01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,960 Speaker 1: I turned around on the road and I'm just kind 1391 01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:37,720 Speaker 1: of watching it ways behind it and instead of just 1392 01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,080 Speaker 1: wandering that because that's what I did the day before. 1393 01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:44,120 Speaker 1: It turned around the offosite directions from all the sets, 1394 01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:48,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, so, anyways, we never ended up catching it. 1395 01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:51,439 Speaker 1: So went up to Utah got shot and uh, but 1396 01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:54,040 Speaker 1: we did. It was the same wolf and stuff like that. 1397 01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,760 Speaker 1: What it helped us to catch it? Did you get 1398 01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,439 Speaker 1: the car because after the guys shot, Uh, our law 1399 01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,840 Speaker 1: enforcement does You didn't need it for anything? Nah, we 1400 01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:06,160 Speaker 1: didn't get it. So we we figured out what wolf 1401 01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,600 Speaker 1: it was and everything else from the DNA. Why do 1402 01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:10,880 Speaker 1: you think, like, why does the wolf start doing that? 1403 01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:16,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's just it's individuals, right. Some some people 1404 01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:18,680 Speaker 1: like to wander and see new ground. I think some 1405 01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:20,599 Speaker 1: wolves just kind of set out in the direction and 1406 01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,160 Speaker 1: keep going. This wolf got down all the way down 1407 01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:26,160 Speaker 1: to the Grand Canyon, went I'm not going across the 1408 01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:29,519 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon. So that is turned around, went the other 1409 01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,559 Speaker 1: direction right and went back up. And so you got 1410 01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,400 Speaker 1: a little window to catch the wolf. And while it's 1411 01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:37,519 Speaker 1: hanging out in a spot, and we just weren't able 1412 01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:40,400 Speaker 1: to some wels. Most of the time, wolves just you 1413 01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:42,920 Speaker 1: get to be two years old and you leave your pack. 1414 01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:46,400 Speaker 1: So you're leaving a big way. Well you don't have to. 1415 01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:48,640 Speaker 1: They just leave until they find an area where they 1416 01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,960 Speaker 1: can make a living or made mating opportunity and all 1417 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:54,920 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So most of dispersal is close, 1418 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,360 Speaker 1: so it's pretty close range dispersal. And then a few 1419 01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:01,559 Speaker 1: of them are these abnormal, a really long range movement. 1420 01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,639 Speaker 1: Sit here out there ice and know a girl who 1421 01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:06,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to go out with real bad never did, 1422 01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:12,160 Speaker 1: but she was working on a project. Um, someone's looking 1423 01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:16,240 Speaker 1: at like the how the Grand Canyon did affect movement 1424 01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:21,120 Speaker 1: of animals, And they were setting hair traps for mountain 1425 01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:27,559 Speaker 1: lions on each side, and whoever was running this thing 1426 01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:30,880 Speaker 1: was was testing the idea whether there was no genetic exchange. 1427 01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:35,920 Speaker 1: But they don't care. Yeah, and lions, you know that 1428 01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:38,560 Speaker 1: they'd catch the same, they'd catch the same, like offspring 1429 01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:42,400 Speaker 1: of the same. Like the things that you perceive as 1430 01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:46,559 Speaker 1: being boundaries sometimes aren't. I was recently looking at some 1431 01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:54,040 Speaker 1: stuff with links in Alaska that, um, big swollen rivers 1432 01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:57,920 Speaker 1: every day, not that they used to be that they like, 1433 01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:00,160 Speaker 1: they wouldn't do it. And then they realized, well, not 1434 01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:01,679 Speaker 1: not only will they do if they'll do it without 1435 01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:04,320 Speaker 1: even thinking twice about it. Right, So the thought was 1436 01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,840 Speaker 1: a Snake river, some of the big rivers there in 1437 01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:10,760 Speaker 1: Idaho that wolves wouldn't cross very frequently to get to 1438 01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:17,040 Speaker 1: Washington across the Snake River canyon and that stuff. But 1439 01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:20,439 Speaker 1: every time you say something you're wrong, the wolves won't 1440 01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:25,160 Speaker 1: show up in northern California. Wolves are now in northern California. 1441 01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:31,040 Speaker 1: So wolf biologists pretty well even wolf biologists underestimate wolves 1442 01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,600 Speaker 1: pretty consistently. Is there a feeling in your in your community. 1443 01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:38,400 Speaker 1: Is there a feeling that instead of doing all this, 1444 01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:43,160 Speaker 1: it just would be that if you just wait, the 1445 01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:46,479 Speaker 1: map is going to fill in anyways? Well, I think 1446 01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,280 Speaker 1: I think that's the case in some places. Yeah, And 1447 01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:53,160 Speaker 1: then but not with Mexican wolves, because you're done the 1448 01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:58,080 Speaker 1: captive thing. There was none laugh, so you have to 1449 01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:01,680 Speaker 1: and then you have petic constraints because they started from 1450 01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:05,559 Speaker 1: seven animals. That's all you have. So captive represents that 1451 01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:09,320 Speaker 1: genetic diversity that's out there, and so there's some maintenance 1452 01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,599 Speaker 1: of that genetic diversity that you want to do out 1453 01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,880 Speaker 1: in the wild and do releases continuing through time. Have 1454 01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:17,599 Speaker 1: you guys ever looked at is it necessary to bring 1455 01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:21,320 Speaker 1: in even though you'd be like sacrificing the you'd be 1456 01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:25,360 Speaker 1: sacrificing the genetic integrity. Do you ever look at bringing 1457 01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:30,479 Speaker 1: in a northern gray wolf just to just to be 1458 01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:34,000 Speaker 1: like it will get deluded, but it will bring some diversity. 1459 01:26:34,439 --> 01:26:37,439 Speaker 1: So the that's one of those debates that goes on 1460 01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:40,880 Speaker 1: out there fair bed so like the Florida panther with 1461 01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,080 Speaker 1: the lions from Texas that came in and help rescue 1462 01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:47,879 Speaker 1: the Florida panther. Right now, we don't see the evidence 1463 01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:52,040 Speaker 1: where the genetic diversity is restricted, where it's limiting the 1464 01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:54,840 Speaker 1: wolves population growth and that kind of stuff. So as 1465 01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:59,559 Speaker 1: long as the population dynamics are, okay, you wouldn't you don't, 1466 01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:02,839 Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't do that. But they don't. They're they don't. 1467 01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:06,160 Speaker 1: They're genes like they're not going through like genetic mutation 1468 01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:09,680 Speaker 1: on such a short span of time that they're increasing 1469 01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:14,000 Speaker 1: their genetic differentiation like they're they're like, genetic diversity isn't increasing. 1470 01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:16,479 Speaker 1: I mean, that's something that happens over tens of thousands 1471 01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:19,320 Speaker 1: of years, right right, But the Northern wolf, for instances, 1472 01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:23,240 Speaker 1: big hundred and twenty pounds, has black coat and has 1473 01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:25,880 Speaker 1: stuff in it that the Mexican wolves don't know. Yeah, 1474 01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,240 Speaker 1: but I'm saying, but that's the result of enormous amounts 1475 01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:32,680 Speaker 1: of time passing saying you don't get like once you 1476 01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:36,080 Speaker 1: get down to a population that had seven animals. Even 1477 01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,599 Speaker 1: if you grow that into three D, you still have 1478 01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:44,040 Speaker 1: like you're still feeling that very limited bottleneck of genetic 1479 01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:47,559 Speaker 1: diversity that you had when you had seven. Right, right, 1480 01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:51,839 Speaker 1: so we have we have frozen zoos, we keep frozen 1481 01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:57,200 Speaker 1: sperm and places and so artificial insemination, um, all those 1482 01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:00,759 Speaker 1: kind of things are still an impact. And wolves because 1483 01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:04,400 Speaker 1: they dispersed so far and travel so widely, genetic diversity 1484 01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:09,080 Speaker 1: is high among wolves and wild populations and everything else. 1485 01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:12,920 Speaker 1: So they're an animal that so even when you're down 1486 01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:17,080 Speaker 1: to seven, it still represents a fair bet of diversity. 1487 01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:20,519 Speaker 1: But uh, every year goes every generation that goes by, 1488 01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:24,640 Speaker 1: you lose some genetic diversity. So that's just a consistence 1489 01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,800 Speaker 1: of population size and how much is out there. It's 1490 01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:29,920 Speaker 1: just kind of a standard thing. So right now, the 1491 01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:37,200 Speaker 1: captive population that we have represents of the genetic diversity 1492 01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:41,599 Speaker 1: that was in those seven founding animals. So and then 1493 01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:46,000 Speaker 1: our wild population represents a percentage of our captive population. 1494 01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:47,599 Speaker 1: So you want to get that as high as possible 1495 01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:50,400 Speaker 1: to at least have all the genes that represented out 1496 01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:55,479 Speaker 1: there that we can. Is there any chance left? Is 1497 01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:58,479 Speaker 1: there any mystery left? Like might at all of a sudden, 1498 01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:03,280 Speaker 1: be that someone in Mexico. Oh, it's gonna be like, hey, 1499 01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:07,759 Speaker 1: we found a couple we didn't know about. Yeah, there's 1500 01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:11,760 Speaker 1: we've had um. There was one that was in a zoo. 1501 01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,679 Speaker 1: It ended up being having a large part of dogs 1502 01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:18,280 Speaker 1: in it, so they would add us it looked enough 1503 01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,560 Speaker 1: from the Mexico colleagues, and we had it tested genetically. 1504 01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,800 Speaker 1: I was referring more in the wild. Yeah, they brought 1505 01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:26,479 Speaker 1: it in from the wild, though, they captured it in 1506 01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:29,479 Speaker 1: the wild and brought it and held it, held some 1507 01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:32,519 Speaker 1: dogs and tangled up with some dogs. Yeah. And so 1508 01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,720 Speaker 1: most of the ones that are left, because it's such 1509 01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:38,120 Speaker 1: a remnant population, I would guess you'd get into them 1510 01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:40,800 Speaker 1: and they'd have some dogs in them. Even if you 1511 01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:45,320 Speaker 1: found a pocket isolated somewhere that was but there's always 1512 01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:49,840 Speaker 1: that possibility, and in Mexico that there might be something 1513 01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,559 Speaker 1: down south and Durango or you know, some different places. 1514 01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,920 Speaker 1: But the best thing it find another wolves is wolves. 1515 01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:00,759 Speaker 1: So when you're doing a release, there's people who believe 1516 01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:03,200 Speaker 1: there'll be wolves. There are still wolves left out here. 1517 01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:05,280 Speaker 1: They would pop out of the woodwork. Yeah, but you 1518 01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:07,160 Speaker 1: release the wolves out there and you don't find any 1519 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:10,160 Speaker 1: other wolves, and so there's nothing that doesn't track back 1520 01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:13,960 Speaker 1: to our wolves. So you know, there wasn't wild wolves 1521 01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:17,160 Speaker 1: that were out there in this junk of country here 1522 01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,479 Speaker 1: in the New Mexico and Arizona. And so they're doing 1523 01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:24,160 Speaker 1: a release now in Mexico, uh, since two thousand eleven. 1524 01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:27,480 Speaker 1: So as these wolves dispersed out and go to different places, 1525 01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:31,439 Speaker 1: if they find other wolves, and you say, yeah, well 1526 01:30:32,080 --> 01:30:37,400 Speaker 1: there's probably other wolves, but they'll find them. How many uh, 1527 01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:43,360 Speaker 1: how many are guys poaching every year? Oh, that's a 1528 01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:48,360 Speaker 1: hard question, but I mean ten that we document, but 1529 01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:51,680 Speaker 1: there's other ones that are undocumented. They get shot and 1530 01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:53,840 Speaker 1: so some of them are So people are shooting ten 1531 01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:57,640 Speaker 1: percent of the population every year. Yeah, I would say 1532 01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:00,680 Speaker 1: in that in that range tend to t percent in 1533 01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,559 Speaker 1: a given year. What And I know we're getting into 1534 01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:06,040 Speaker 1: things that are hard to quantify. What percent or case 1535 01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:08,400 Speaker 1: is a mistake and identity and what percenter? Like dudes 1536 01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:12,040 Speaker 1: that are pissed, Uh boy, I think a lot of 1537 01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:15,679 Speaker 1: them are mistaken identity. Personally, I think you're down here 1538 01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:18,960 Speaker 1: and they're shooting kyote. Yeah. I mean we've solved some 1539 01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:21,120 Speaker 1: cases where people say that and they think it's a 1540 01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:24,040 Speaker 1: coyote that they shot and turned themselves in. And I 1541 01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,280 Speaker 1: always tell people, as long as you're honest with me, 1542 01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:30,599 Speaker 1: you'll get it. It's like if you shoot, you're out there, 1543 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,599 Speaker 1: you're hunting, and you shoot a cow because you thought 1544 01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:34,680 Speaker 1: it you have a bull tag and you thought I 1545 01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:37,479 Speaker 1: had antlers that were massive there and it turned out 1546 01:31:37,479 --> 01:31:40,360 Speaker 1: it was a tree or whatever. You know, you won't 1547 01:31:40,400 --> 01:31:42,479 Speaker 1: get a ticket for that. But as long as you're 1548 01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:44,719 Speaker 1: honest about it and turn yourself in, then you get 1549 01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:48,360 Speaker 1: less of a fine than you would if you tried 1550 01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:50,680 Speaker 1: to hide it. By Yeah, I've never heard anything to 1551 01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:53,320 Speaker 1: contradict that from any game word I've ever spoken where 1552 01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:56,200 Speaker 1: they put a high premium on the guy that comes 1553 01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:59,719 Speaker 1: and says, hey man that I mess up and taken 1554 01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:03,439 Speaker 1: where you were having. Yeah. So if it's an honest mistake, 1555 01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:07,240 Speaker 1: I expect people to be honest about it, and so 1556 01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:11,000 Speaker 1: if it's nefarious, then I expect them to be secretive 1557 01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:15,320 Speaker 1: about it. So so some number of are are do 1558 01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:18,640 Speaker 1: you ever get people that are poaching them because they 1559 01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:22,560 Speaker 1: want them the hides or they usually poach them just 1560 01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:25,960 Speaker 1: because they want them dead. Everybody always does. Nobody wants 1561 01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:29,400 Speaker 1: the hides. So they're they're poaching them because because they're 1562 01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:32,920 Speaker 1: well the ones that are that are killing them nefariously. Yeah, 1563 01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:36,680 Speaker 1: they're just they're killing them. And then how do you guys? Uh? 1564 01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:39,479 Speaker 1: When I say you guys, has anyone ever who prosecutes it? 1565 01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:43,280 Speaker 1: So it's a fish and wildlife fed Yeah, and then 1566 01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:46,920 Speaker 1: it goes uh they make the case our special agents too, 1567 01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:49,519 Speaker 1: so they do all the investigation and stuff like that 1568 01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:53,799 Speaker 1: with assistance from states sometimes in the whole wide network 1569 01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:57,600 Speaker 1: for service law enforcement. Everybody's involved in that. They have 1570 01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,599 Speaker 1: a network. But then it goes to district attorneys and 1571 01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:06,759 Speaker 1: federal kind of cases on have you even been prosecuted, Yeah, 1572 01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:10,960 Speaker 1: there's been a couple here or there, they've been prosecuted. 1573 01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:12,960 Speaker 1: I mean there they come down on them hard or 1574 01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:16,719 Speaker 1: know well they can, but I don't think it depends 1575 01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:19,160 Speaker 1: on the circumstances. So in the one case that I'm 1576 01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,400 Speaker 1: aware of, I think they came down pretty arc as 1577 01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:24,920 Speaker 1: a person uh picked up the carcass and moved it 1578 01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:28,320 Speaker 1: from Arizona to New Mexico and so at that stage 1579 01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,719 Speaker 1: that's a Lacey Act violation because you crossed state lines 1580 01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:35,320 Speaker 1: as well, which is a felony, and so why do 1581 01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:38,320 Speaker 1: you move it just trying to hide evidence? You know 1582 01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:40,639 Speaker 1: it doesn't want it where it laid down and moved 1583 01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:42,920 Speaker 1: it away. And so I think that person that came 1584 01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:45,240 Speaker 1: down it was early on and I think he got 1585 01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:49,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of jail time associated with that. Other 1586 01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:54,160 Speaker 1: people that are really honest about it and call and say, hey, look, 1587 01:33:55,200 --> 01:33:59,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was a coyote. I shot it. Here's evidence. 1588 01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:04,439 Speaker 1: Here's the thing they you know, small civil Fine, so 1589 01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:10,760 Speaker 1: it's a range is all that level. Um, but we'll 1590 01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:13,519 Speaker 1: see how it goes on that stuff. Law enforcement is 1591 01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:17,400 Speaker 1: pretty you know how they say, uh, you have a case, 1592 01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:20,160 Speaker 1: any case. They don't like to talk about it too 1593 01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:23,720 Speaker 1: much until it's long past. Yeah, I got you. Ye. 1594 01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:30,080 Speaker 1: So do you think, um, like you know, if you 1595 01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:35,759 Speaker 1: guys look at this as like sociologists, do you think that, uh, 1596 01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:38,360 Speaker 1: there's a way in in the future that it might 1597 01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,240 Speaker 1: be a conversation where someone saying, hey, do you remember 1598 01:34:41,280 --> 01:34:45,599 Speaker 1: when everyone was all piste off about these wolves? Now? Ah, 1599 01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:48,519 Speaker 1: that was stupid because look they're here and everybody's so happy. Now, 1600 01:34:49,320 --> 01:34:57,080 Speaker 1: how's that working out? In Montana? For that hasn't happened there, 1601 01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:03,240 Speaker 1: But the blood still drying in Montana. Man, I don't. 1602 01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:07,280 Speaker 1: I think people will normalize it eventually, but it's a 1603 01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:09,759 Speaker 1: long ways down the road, and it's different from areas 1604 01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:13,080 Speaker 1: where they came down naturally. In areas where you do 1605 01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:16,559 Speaker 1: a reintroduction, because it's the government, it's kind of the 1606 01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:20,200 Speaker 1: government going against your values. So back when we were 1607 01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:23,320 Speaker 1: shooting all the wolves, I think there's probably people who 1608 01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:27,160 Speaker 1: are going, I don't agree with that this is wrong 1609 01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:31,320 Speaker 1: or whatever. They're absolutely yeah, all theough Leopold and various 1610 01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:34,960 Speaker 1: other things. And so the government is doing a program 1611 01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:38,760 Speaker 1: that's not favoring your personal beliefs, and so it's no 1612 01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:42,559 Speaker 1: different with reinroduction. In this case. There's people who are 1613 01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:46,599 Speaker 1: out there ranchers, hunters, There's people who this doesn't match 1614 01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:49,920 Speaker 1: with what their core beliefs are in terms of things, 1615 01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:52,439 Speaker 1: and it impacts them. So yeah, but I think that 1616 01:35:52,800 --> 01:36:00,960 Speaker 1: like nationally, um, nationally, the reintroductions have pretty enormous support, 1617 01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:04,920 Speaker 1: particularly among people who aren't affected by this. Well, you know, 1618 01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:07,679 Speaker 1: I think I've I've observed like in the areas where 1619 01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:09,920 Speaker 1: we've had the recovery effort going on for quite a while, 1620 01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:13,519 Speaker 1: there's more of acceptance there. People are understanding that, Okay, 1621 01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:15,679 Speaker 1: this is something we're gonna have to live with, so 1622 01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:19,680 Speaker 1: let's just start working together a little bit better. The 1623 01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,639 Speaker 1: challenges also comes where we start looking at new areas 1624 01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:26,280 Speaker 1: to expand, because then we start that whole process over 1625 01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:29,559 Speaker 1: of people getting used to wolves in new areas, and 1626 01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:33,639 Speaker 1: then that's gets tough again. So you have to build 1627 01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:36,120 Speaker 1: those relationships again in the whole new area and start 1628 01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:42,520 Speaker 1: building trust. But it turns it takes time. Do you personally, um, 1629 01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:45,000 Speaker 1: do you have to do you personally going and deal 1630 01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:47,960 Speaker 1: with people who are having a problem with wolves? Well, yeah, 1631 01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:51,479 Speaker 1: that's one of the things the program does is as 1632 01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:54,960 Speaker 1: the forest Service representative, I do a lot of communication 1633 01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,439 Speaker 1: with the permitees to try to help resolve the issues. 1634 01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:00,320 Speaker 1: But people have grazing permits, Yeah, grazing perm it's but 1635 01:37:01,280 --> 01:37:03,719 Speaker 1: the biologist on the ground from the Fish and Wildlife 1636 01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:06,439 Speaker 1: Service in the Arizona Gameing Fish do also quite a 1637 01:37:06,439 --> 01:37:09,880 Speaker 1: bit of contact with the permites and actually do the 1638 01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:14,479 Speaker 1: work with the wolves to minimize those impacts, and they 1639 01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:17,320 Speaker 1: do a pretty good job at trying to resolve those issues. 1640 01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:20,000 Speaker 1: What what's the process like when when a guy gets 1641 01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:24,640 Speaker 1: it he's got a cow gets killed. Um, what's his process, like, Like, 1642 01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:27,880 Speaker 1: what's he gotta do? So he calls us, calls us up, 1643 01:37:28,479 --> 01:37:33,240 Speaker 1: either US or Wildlife Services which is another agency under 1644 01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:37,400 Speaker 1: the Department of Agriculture as well, Um, and they get 1645 01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:40,280 Speaker 1: an investigation on it. So you skin it out and 1646 01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:43,320 Speaker 1: so what you're looking for underneath the hide is bruising. 1647 01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:47,120 Speaker 1: So when a wolf bites, it bruises underneath the hide, 1648 01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:50,639 Speaker 1: so it's like subcutaneous hemorrhagee. So it's the same as 1649 01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:54,360 Speaker 1: you or I. And then you're looking for attacks in 1650 01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:57,880 Speaker 1: the hind quarters and the armpad areas. That's kind of 1651 01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:02,240 Speaker 1: prototypical of wolves will tracks in the area. And then 1652 01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:07,120 Speaker 1: it gets confirmed and they send that in and get compensation. 1653 01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:11,000 Speaker 1: So they send in the confirmation from Wildlife Services and 1654 01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:14,320 Speaker 1: then they send that in. But and then and then 1655 01:38:14,439 --> 01:38:17,240 Speaker 1: then their conversation is some kind of fair market value 1656 01:38:17,240 --> 01:38:20,240 Speaker 1: for the animal. Yeah, it's set by right now. We 1657 01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:25,720 Speaker 1: have a Mexican Wolf Livestock Council that's working on on 1658 01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:30,160 Speaker 1: that and it's composed of ranchers and if you conservationists 1659 01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:33,840 Speaker 1: and so yeah, they do. They based it on the 1660 01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:36,240 Speaker 1: market value at the time, an average for the area. 1661 01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:39,719 Speaker 1: They also do a pay for a presence thing, which 1662 01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:43,639 Speaker 1: is um, when you're out in these big allotments, ranchers 1663 01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:46,719 Speaker 1: can't possibly find all the dead cows that happened from anything. 1664 01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:49,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's what I was going to bring up, 1665 01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,479 Speaker 1: is that's the thing you here is they don't know 1666 01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:53,840 Speaker 1: they round them up and they got less than they had, 1667 01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:56,960 Speaker 1: and they can't go and find skeletal remains and make 1668 01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:59,880 Speaker 1: a claim on it, right right. So that's that's a 1669 01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:03,759 Speaker 1: hard things. So there is actually financial impacts two ranchers, 1670 01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:09,280 Speaker 1: real financial impacts and so um. So there's this pay 1671 01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,160 Speaker 1: for presence a thing which is based on a formula 1672 01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:14,519 Speaker 1: based on wolves being there and how many cows you have, 1673 01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:17,719 Speaker 1: and so that that's also part of the Mexican wolf 1674 01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:25,480 Speaker 1: live stock payouts. And then there that you're compensating someone 1675 01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:29,200 Speaker 1: without them needing to go and prove specific cases they 1676 01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:33,839 Speaker 1: lost animals, right right, so they Yeah, it's just based 1677 01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:36,680 Speaker 1: on wolves and pups, how many pups are raised with 1678 01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,200 Speaker 1: the wolves, so things that are good for recovery, and 1679 01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:41,760 Speaker 1: then how many livestock they have in an area, and 1680 01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:45,600 Speaker 1: then whether or not they implemented proactive things. So that 1681 01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:49,400 Speaker 1: stuff like proactive is like range writers being out there, 1682 01:39:49,439 --> 01:39:53,400 Speaker 1: extra range writers looking for dads, are moving cows away 1683 01:39:53,439 --> 01:39:56,639 Speaker 1: from wolves or different things that you can implement out 1684 01:39:56,640 --> 01:39:59,120 Speaker 1: there on the ground to try to avoid predation as well. 1685 01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:03,519 Speaker 1: And those things aren't of they aren't the golden they 1686 01:40:03,560 --> 01:40:08,439 Speaker 1: aren't the silver bullet, right, So there's still depredations that 1687 01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:11,840 Speaker 1: can occur despite those things happening out there, and some 1688 01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:15,040 Speaker 1: of them aren't found. How many individual animal payments get 1689 01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,679 Speaker 1: paid out in a typical year, Uh, it's pretty consistent 1690 01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:21,599 Speaker 1: that you know the number that are depredated to get 1691 01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:24,759 Speaker 1: paid out most years, So I I not most people 1692 01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:28,000 Speaker 1: put in for the twenty to fifty animals that are 1693 01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:31,920 Speaker 1: killed in terms of the livestock loss. And then there's 1694 01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:35,400 Speaker 1: some components that are missing and you never find. And 1695 01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:39,000 Speaker 1: now there are cases where um, I'm sure, I mean 1696 01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:43,519 Speaker 1: like isolated. Was it a common problem where you're not 1697 01:40:43,560 --> 01:40:47,560 Speaker 1: able to come to consensus that the livestock owner and 1698 01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:51,880 Speaker 1: the investigator aren't able to get down the same page 1699 01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:55,759 Speaker 1: about the cause of death. Yeah, some of that happens 1700 01:40:55,760 --> 01:40:59,680 Speaker 1: with the investigator, but the investigators trained been through a 1701 01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:03,720 Speaker 1: lot of different ones and and so that's why they're professionals. 1702 01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:06,200 Speaker 1: And what they do, and so that's where we go 1703 01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:09,559 Speaker 1: with is what the investigator does and it makes a 1704 01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:15,200 Speaker 1: call in the end. So um, so that's kind of 1705 01:41:15,240 --> 01:41:17,920 Speaker 1: the way it goes out there. There was one permittee 1706 01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:21,080 Speaker 1: a long time ago who decided that he didn't want 1707 01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:24,200 Speaker 1: to have Wildlife Services out there, who works on him 1708 01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:27,360 Speaker 1: with you know, coyote control all this kind of stuff, 1709 01:41:27,360 --> 01:41:30,640 Speaker 1: works with the ranchers, and decided instead to have the 1710 01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,040 Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife Service out there doing its investigations. And 1711 01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:36,920 Speaker 1: what I would tell them all the time is like, look, 1712 01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:41,599 Speaker 1: this is this would be the same exact call. Wildlife 1713 01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:43,920 Speaker 1: Services would make the same call that I'm making here. 1714 01:41:44,360 --> 01:41:47,680 Speaker 1: Wildlife Services would make the same call. There's no differences. 1715 01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:50,320 Speaker 1: So over and over and eventually he went back to 1716 01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:55,120 Speaker 1: Wildlife Services doing it. And so I that the evidence 1717 01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:57,720 Speaker 1: is evidence. Do you do do you make? Do you 1718 01:41:57,720 --> 01:42:00,479 Speaker 1: go on a lot of those calls? I do on some, 1719 01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:05,440 Speaker 1: but and I've been out there trapping for with for removals, 1720 01:42:05,479 --> 01:42:08,840 Speaker 1: with depredations and stuff like that with wolves that are 1721 01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:12,920 Speaker 1: out there, and so yeah, when there's big problems, then 1722 01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:18,400 Speaker 1: I get hauled out of my office. Occasionally I get 1723 01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:20,040 Speaker 1: I get to go out in the field when it's 1724 01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:26,160 Speaker 1: not fun like one, there is conflict. Yeah, So I 1725 01:42:26,200 --> 01:42:28,120 Speaker 1: don't get the sense that you haven't, that you're like 1726 01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:30,400 Speaker 1: losing a ton of sleep at night about this whole thing. 1727 01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:34,000 Speaker 1: It's it's funny. I've had people come up to me 1728 01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:37,479 Speaker 1: and say, you're such a nice young man, John, Why 1729 01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:40,400 Speaker 1: did you choose to do this? Why did you doing 1730 01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:44,040 Speaker 1: something productive with your life? And so you know, and 1731 01:42:44,040 --> 01:42:48,080 Speaker 1: and how can you sleep at night? And I think 1732 01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:51,360 Speaker 1: what I try to do out there is relate with people. 1733 01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:55,240 Speaker 1: So I relate with the livestock producers out there fairly well. 1734 01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:59,440 Speaker 1: I have a lot of common out common values, uh 1735 01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,200 Speaker 1: land being out open land that they provide out there, 1736 01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:06,360 Speaker 1: the waters that are out there and maintained by them, 1737 01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:09,240 Speaker 1: that's good for hunting and and fishing. So all those 1738 01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:13,400 Speaker 1: common values are there. Now I'm choosing a lifestyle where 1739 01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:16,000 Speaker 1: you don't make a lot of money, but you enjoy 1740 01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:19,400 Speaker 1: being outside. So there's a lot of commonalities that are 1741 01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:23,120 Speaker 1: all over the place, and so you try to establish 1742 01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:25,680 Speaker 1: those commonalities with those guys. Aren't like, I know how 1743 01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:29,040 Speaker 1: I'll get rich on a candle in the day, right, 1744 01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:31,800 Speaker 1: There's no, that's not They do it because it's their 1745 01:43:31,840 --> 01:43:34,519 Speaker 1: family thing, and they love it and they love the 1746 01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:37,519 Speaker 1: land that they're on. So that's that's why they're they're 1747 01:43:37,520 --> 01:43:40,479 Speaker 1: in the business, most of them, yea. And you find 1748 01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:43,640 Speaker 1: common grown on that sure. And so the point is 1749 01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,360 Speaker 1: it's like if someone else is here who doesn't have 1750 01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:51,160 Speaker 1: those same values, are those same kind of working together goals, 1751 01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:54,639 Speaker 1: then it doesn't work out as well. So I think 1752 01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:57,880 Speaker 1: both can be there. Livestock can be on the landscape 1753 01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:02,080 Speaker 1: and a multiple use hunters. I'll still hunt. Wolves aren't 1754 01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:05,920 Speaker 1: gonna drive me out of hunting, and so U and 1755 01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:09,360 Speaker 1: wolves as well. There's there's enough room for all of 1756 01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:12,720 Speaker 1: it to be there out on the landscape. Would I 1757 01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:15,280 Speaker 1: guess probably not. But let's say let's say all of 1758 01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:22,200 Speaker 1: a sudden whatever have delisting occurred. Um, you'd probably never 1759 01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:23,719 Speaker 1: be like, hey, I'm gonna go on a wolf hunt. 1760 01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:28,360 Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't. I haven't hunted bears. I've been tangled 1761 01:44:28,439 --> 01:44:30,400 Speaker 1: up with wolves. Yeah, you've already caught a whole bunch 1762 01:44:30,400 --> 01:44:33,760 Speaker 1: of them. I haven't hunted bears or lions either, And 1763 01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:35,880 Speaker 1: that's just the person. I have nothing wrong with it. 1764 01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:39,519 Speaker 1: I have zero and zero problems with any hunting. But 1765 01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:41,760 Speaker 1: when you map out your year, you're like thinking about 1766 01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:46,599 Speaker 1: elk elk dear. Yeah, just I was kind of. It's 1767 01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:49,880 Speaker 1: just what I like to hunt turkeys. I really like 1768 01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:53,439 Speaker 1: calling things too. I like that interaction getting in close 1769 01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:58,639 Speaker 1: with things. So wolves too, hauling up bulls. Like if 1770 01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:00,839 Speaker 1: you go out and you're looking for a pack of wolves, 1771 01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:03,400 Speaker 1: Like early on, I remember looking for a pack of 1772 01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:06,920 Speaker 1: wolves in Montana and I got the tip from this 1773 01:45:07,080 --> 01:45:10,080 Speaker 1: ferrier guy shooting another guy's horses. He says, if you 1774 01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:12,840 Speaker 1: want to find wolves, you should go over here. So 1775 01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:14,880 Speaker 1: I go over there and I'm driving along and doing 1776 01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:18,680 Speaker 1: just howling at night, and then they all want to 1777 01:45:18,680 --> 01:45:21,120 Speaker 1: do how just straight out? Yeah? Can you let one 1778 01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:25,120 Speaker 1: rip right now? You don't want to as long as 1779 01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:31,960 Speaker 1: you do it right after me. No, I bet you 1780 01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:41,479 Speaker 1: got a good one. So but you need the moon 1781 01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:43,280 Speaker 1: up in the sky and you need to tip your 1782 01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:47,400 Speaker 1: head back right. That'll do it right there. Uh yeah, 1783 01:45:47,479 --> 01:45:50,720 Speaker 1: something like what's that? What's that call? Saying I don't 1784 01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:53,559 Speaker 1: know they had into that. They haven't told me anything. 1785 01:45:53,960 --> 01:45:55,840 Speaker 1: I got a buddy that he thinks like I got 1786 01:45:55,840 --> 01:46:00,160 Speaker 1: a buddy that when he's doing wolf calling, he's it's 1787 01:46:00,200 --> 01:46:03,040 Speaker 1: like he's like, oh, yeah, I'm saying this, and he's 1788 01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:06,320 Speaker 1: saying that he's I'm answering him back this question. Do 1789 01:46:06,360 --> 01:46:10,320 Speaker 1: you think he's right? I don't know. I don't know either. 1790 01:46:11,360 --> 01:46:13,559 Speaker 1: So you don't have like you're not like I'm gonna 1791 01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:16,040 Speaker 1: throw the old roundup call at him. Well, no, I 1792 01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:19,479 Speaker 1: don't have non challenge caller. I just try to like 1793 01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:21,800 Speaker 1: hell to get him to respond, and I'm thankful when 1794 01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:25,160 Speaker 1: they do. So you haven't found like you're not. You 1795 01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:28,120 Speaker 1: haven't found that there's different. Well, I'm doing a break. 1796 01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:31,240 Speaker 1: How so when you hear my voice break from hill, 1797 01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:34,240 Speaker 1: that's a kind of a break how that? So would 1798 01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:40,160 Speaker 1: that be called like a locator call? Calls that? Right? Yeah, 1799 01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:42,320 Speaker 1: I mean wolves are always looking for other wolves, so 1800 01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:46,840 Speaker 1: they're always it's just a just a hell you can 1801 01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:51,200 Speaker 1: do a flat how and you just you don't really 1802 01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:53,680 Speaker 1: do that break kind of in your if you can 1803 01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:55,559 Speaker 1: avoid it. I can't. But you don't feel that that 1804 01:46:55,600 --> 01:47:00,479 Speaker 1: sends a different message. I don't know. They just they 1805 01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:02,840 Speaker 1: just they respond. Well, So if you get them at 1806 01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:05,320 Speaker 1: the right time of year, pups love to talk. So 1807 01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:08,040 Speaker 1: if you get them in about August September time frame, 1808 01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:11,120 Speaker 1: the pups will all start yakking, and the adults will 1809 01:47:11,479 --> 01:47:15,639 Speaker 1: break in and you get although wolves howling out there, 1810 01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:18,439 Speaker 1: but anyways, just howling along in a new area and 1811 01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:21,320 Speaker 1: you get that response and you say, oh god, I 1812 01:47:21,400 --> 01:47:26,240 Speaker 1: just found a pack of wolves that's oncollared unmarked. Um, 1813 01:47:26,400 --> 01:47:30,200 Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. Yeah, you like the uncollared ones better. 1814 01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:32,880 Speaker 1: You like the wild ones. Oh yeah, that's that's near 1815 01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:35,840 Speaker 1: because that's a collar group. You go, bee bee beep 1816 01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:38,960 Speaker 1: on there it is, and now I'm gonna howl and 1817 01:47:39,439 --> 01:47:42,960 Speaker 1: sometimes they respond and sometimes they don't, and I'm piste 1818 01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:45,880 Speaker 1: off when they don't, and I'm kind of like, well 1819 01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:50,000 Speaker 1: I did what I should have got done if they do. Yeah, 1820 01:47:50,120 --> 01:47:55,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I like the real wild ones Alaska. Yeah, 1821 01:47:55,200 --> 01:47:56,760 Speaker 1: I just I mean not that I'm down on the 1822 01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:01,719 Speaker 1: other ones, but want something, um, and it's important work. 1823 01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:06,320 Speaker 1: But once something gets caught, something and it changes. Man. 1824 01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:09,720 Speaker 1: You know. But I was pointing out one day and 1825 01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:11,439 Speaker 1: I was like, but then like, it's sweet when you 1826 01:48:11,479 --> 01:48:13,280 Speaker 1: catch when you shoot a bird, it's got a band 1827 01:48:13,360 --> 01:48:21,600 Speaker 1: on it, right, So it's it's like very inconsistent. Uh uh. 1828 01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:24,080 Speaker 1: They're all interesting. I mean catching them is interesting. You 1829 01:48:24,120 --> 01:48:26,519 Speaker 1: walk up to them, handle them, with nothing but a 1830 01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,280 Speaker 1: y stick, you know, so you're just kind of why 1831 01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:31,519 Speaker 1: stick them down and then you hand inject the drugs. 1832 01:48:33,280 --> 01:48:36,439 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that with the lion Darta lion darta 1833 01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:40,920 Speaker 1: bear grizzly bears back in the day when I was 1834 01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:44,840 Speaker 1: handling them. You can why stick one of those things? Right? 1835 01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,719 Speaker 1: You have to make sure you're out of the path 1836 01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:51,639 Speaker 1: of the snare where it's destroyed around the tree. And so, 1837 01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean wolves are, but some of them are aggressive. 1838 01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:57,120 Speaker 1: Some of them will bark and howl and growl at 1839 01:48:57,160 --> 01:49:01,840 Speaker 1: you until you get them pinned down. Mainly the alpha's so, 1840 01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:05,800 Speaker 1: but it's it's tricking a getting them draft is hard. 1841 01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:08,680 Speaker 1: So every time I trap them, I handle them with 1842 01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:12,120 Speaker 1: a lot of respect and then uh, because it's I 1843 01:49:12,360 --> 01:49:15,439 Speaker 1: it's my responsibility at that stage, and I'm happy with 1844 01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:18,479 Speaker 1: myself because it's hard. Yeah, you can't be out killing 1845 01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:24,240 Speaker 1: them on accident nine. So wildlife work in general, you 1846 01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:29,320 Speaker 1: have some mortality that occurs with handling animals. That's a reality, 1847 01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:31,840 Speaker 1: so you don't you want to minimize that to an 1848 01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:38,439 Speaker 1: absolute smallest amount possible. So we take training every year 1849 01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:43,440 Speaker 1: with vets. Let go through stuff and try to minimize 1850 01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:47,280 Speaker 1: that to the greatest degree possible. So I can only 1851 01:49:47,320 --> 01:49:51,519 Speaker 1: think of a few instances where we've killed bowlves out there. Yeah, 1852 01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure to some degree inevitable that once you handle 1853 01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:57,400 Speaker 1: a certain number of them, Yeah, you get enough, you 1854 01:49:57,920 --> 01:50:02,000 Speaker 1: have it and so um big horn, cheap captures. Some 1855 01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:05,960 Speaker 1: will die from that and so all the captures. That's 1856 01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:09,080 Speaker 1: a part of it. So you have to evaluate whether 1857 01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,760 Speaker 1: your goals of your project and whether your goals of 1858 01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:17,360 Speaker 1: handling that animal is worth taking that risk. And so 1859 01:50:17,439 --> 01:50:20,240 Speaker 1: that's that's always what you do out there with with 1860 01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:23,840 Speaker 1: these kind of projects. It's not just cool you just 1861 01:50:23,880 --> 01:50:27,240 Speaker 1: go catch one to see, just have some fun catching them, 1862 01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:32,320 Speaker 1: right right, there's a purpose behind everything. So al right, 1863 01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:35,559 Speaker 1: be honest, that was great. That was fantastic. Oh, I 1864 01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:38,719 Speaker 1: did find the number of New Mexico hunters killed last 1865 01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:43,200 Speaker 1: year fourteen and a half thousand, and wolves are and 1866 01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:45,000 Speaker 1: and know it's different because they're in New Mexico and 1867 01:50:45,040 --> 01:50:47,320 Speaker 1: Arizona and all that, but wolves kill how many in 1868 01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:50,080 Speaker 1: the in the chunk land they got right now? I 1869 01:50:50,120 --> 01:50:53,200 Speaker 1: think we put the estimate around sixteen twelve to six 1870 01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:57,200 Speaker 1: hunter So basically in order what percent of New Mexico 1871 01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:00,960 Speaker 1: is the wolf recovery area. Percent of the carry I 1872 01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:04,000 Speaker 1: don't know. There's a lot of elk up north um 1873 01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:12,960 Speaker 1: in New Mexico, so maybe the elk population probably is 1874 01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:18,120 Speaker 1: in wolf country. So you fellas that hun elk you Yeah, 1875 01:51:18,439 --> 01:51:22,800 Speaker 1: you are right, what's that there's some elk to get one. 1876 01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:27,200 Speaker 1: It's true. It is a tradeoff you're dealing with. Yeah, 1877 01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:30,400 Speaker 1: you're dealing with some elk that would wind up in 1878 01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:37,320 Speaker 1: your freezer, will wind up in the belly of a wolf. Right, 1879 01:51:37,320 --> 01:51:43,639 Speaker 1: it's competition. Right. But on the other hand, uh, do 1880 01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:49,160 Speaker 1: we have the right to dust off species off the 1881 01:51:49,240 --> 01:51:55,000 Speaker 1: face of the earth forever? That's a theological It's like 1882 01:51:55,840 --> 01:52:00,760 Speaker 1: it's a spiritual almost theological question. You get to say, 1883 01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:04,639 Speaker 1: now that one doesn't get to live anymore, it will 1884 01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:11,760 Speaker 1: be gone for eternity because it inconveniences me. Um and 1885 01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:13,479 Speaker 1: and I don't know, when you're out there hunting, you're 1886 01:52:13,479 --> 01:52:16,479 Speaker 1: in grizzly bear country, or you hear wolves, holland or 1887 01:52:16,520 --> 01:52:19,160 Speaker 1: any of that stuff. To me, it's just it makes 1888 01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:22,840 Speaker 1: it a little more interesting. Yeah, everybody. That's the thing. 1889 01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:25,479 Speaker 1: That's one of the weird things about it is people 1890 01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:30,439 Speaker 1: um when talking about wolves. People in the naturally are 1891 01:52:30,479 --> 01:52:33,400 Speaker 1: like it gets their hackles up because of they don't 1892 01:52:33,400 --> 01:52:37,760 Speaker 1: want to see their deer and elk resources diminished, and 1893 01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:44,080 Speaker 1: they're hard on moose in the north too, seriously hard. So, um, 1894 01:52:44,240 --> 01:52:47,000 Speaker 1: you don't want to see it diminished. But then there's 1895 01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:50,280 Speaker 1: you're almost not a human if there's some party that 1896 01:52:50,320 --> 01:52:53,600 Speaker 1: doesn't get a little tickled when you hear one of 1897 01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:57,240 Speaker 1: those things rip out of how sure? And some people, 1898 01:52:57,280 --> 01:53:00,360 Speaker 1: I mean ranchers, like they're out there there are a 1899 01:53:00,360 --> 01:53:05,000 Speaker 1: lot how means I could possibly having an impact on 1900 01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:09,280 Speaker 1: my wallet? Yeah, right tonight? And some of their answers 1901 01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:12,840 Speaker 1: get you know, at first I hated that sound, but 1902 01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:15,800 Speaker 1: then I was like, man, that's amazing. That's a neat 1903 01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:19,360 Speaker 1: sound to hear. So I gotta give him. I gotta 1904 01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:22,680 Speaker 1: give him that much, you know. And so I think, yeah, 1905 01:53:22,760 --> 01:53:24,760 Speaker 1: I think the real key and this is easy to say, 1906 01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:27,080 Speaker 1: it very hard to do, but I think, like kind 1907 01:53:27,080 --> 01:53:31,280 Speaker 1: of the key from from my conversations and my exposure 1908 01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:33,960 Speaker 1: to a wide variety of people across the wide variety 1909 01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:40,519 Speaker 1: of landscapes, is that, um, a lot of people who 1910 01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:45,599 Speaker 1: are upset about projects like this, they're kind of what 1911 01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:49,120 Speaker 1: they're afraid of is being told half the story or 1912 01:53:49,400 --> 01:53:54,000 Speaker 1: to have the story change later. And I think that 1913 01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:57,360 Speaker 1: if there was um not that there's a lack of transparity, 1914 01:53:57,360 --> 01:54:00,800 Speaker 1: but there's it's difficult to project how these projects are 1915 01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:03,880 Speaker 1: gonna go and then what the legal processes are gonna 1916 01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:06,960 Speaker 1: be like down the road, and it leaves people feeling 1917 01:54:07,120 --> 01:54:10,559 Speaker 1: burned when someone told him recovery will look like this, 1918 01:54:11,400 --> 01:54:14,599 Speaker 1: but then it doesn't. And then it doesn't and you're 1919 01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:17,760 Speaker 1: like waiting for some kind of relief from maybe some 1920 01:54:17,840 --> 01:54:21,240 Speaker 1: of the sacrifices you're making, and the relief doesn't come, 1921 01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:24,559 Speaker 1: and it leads people with the real bad tasting their mouth. 1922 01:54:24,600 --> 01:54:27,360 Speaker 1: And what I hate to see is anyone who's old 1923 01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:31,840 Speaker 1: enough to remember like the spotted owl situation the Pacific Northwest, 1924 01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:36,520 Speaker 1: where an animal loses its like essence and just becomes 1925 01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:44,160 Speaker 1: a symbol for conflict. You know, It's like someday people 1926 01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:46,080 Speaker 1: will be able to hear spot of the owl again 1927 01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:50,600 Speaker 1: and visualize a burden. But for many people, when you 1928 01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:53,000 Speaker 1: hear spot it all, you don't visualize a bird. You 1929 01:54:53,200 --> 01:55:00,960 Speaker 1: visualize distrust and conflict and right and it's and I 1930 01:55:01,040 --> 01:55:04,120 Speaker 1: hate it when uh and I hate to see like 1931 01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:06,840 Speaker 1: other animals that I love a lot. I hate to 1932 01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:14,160 Speaker 1: see them become symbols for um uh, symbols for something 1933 01:55:14,240 --> 01:55:16,920 Speaker 1: besides just their their essence as a wild animal. But 1934 01:55:17,040 --> 01:55:19,560 Speaker 1: wolves have been symbol for something beside their essence of 1935 01:55:19,640 --> 01:55:23,160 Speaker 1: a lot more for a long time. You know what, 1936 01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:26,720 Speaker 1: it's very hard to find the animal. It's very hard 1937 01:55:26,840 --> 01:55:30,480 Speaker 1: for people to find the animal within the animal. Yeah, 1938 01:55:31,600 --> 01:55:36,560 Speaker 1: they are just giant walking metaphors. I mean, it's been forever, right, 1939 01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:40,200 Speaker 1: Europeans coming over here, the whole thing. Yeah, No, you're right, 1940 01:55:40,280 --> 01:55:43,560 Speaker 1: they are. The owl did enjoy owlness about the wolf. 1941 01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:45,760 Speaker 1: It's been a long time since the wolf was able 1942 01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:50,200 Speaker 1: to enjoy his wolfness. I don't know what the caveman 1943 01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:52,880 Speaker 1: we're thinking about. It may go back that far. They 1944 01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:55,560 Speaker 1: felt something, they heard that when they heard that howl 1945 01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:58,560 Speaker 1: ripping h sitting by the fire, they weren't I bet 1946 01:55:58,560 --> 01:56:02,440 Speaker 1: they weren't passive about it. Why fire was invented? You 1947 01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:07,040 Speaker 1: need some comfort? Well, I appreciate you guys talking about 1948 01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:11,000 Speaker 1: this man. It's like, um, you know, I feel vested 1949 01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:15,520 Speaker 1: in it. And also it's just fascinating, right, and it's like, 1950 01:56:16,320 --> 01:56:20,240 Speaker 1: what a luxury that we're that that Uh, what a 1951 01:56:20,320 --> 01:56:22,640 Speaker 1: luxury that as a nation we're in a position where 1952 01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:26,000 Speaker 1: we could be talking about whether or not how many 1953 01:56:26,000 --> 01:56:28,960 Speaker 1: wolves we want. Right, there's a lot of nations trying 1954 01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:30,919 Speaker 1: to figure out if they're going to be a nation tomorrow, 1955 01:56:31,560 --> 01:56:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, and like it's like a real uh, it's 1956 01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:38,440 Speaker 1: a luxurious problem man, to be like how much wildlife 1957 01:56:38,440 --> 01:56:42,520 Speaker 1: do we want? First world problem? First world problem. And 1958 01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:45,640 Speaker 1: when you look at it in Mexico, they're reinducing them 1959 01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:48,880 Speaker 1: and so they have problems with they can't access particular 1960 01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:52,520 Speaker 1: areas because the drugs, right, they have people that are hungry. 1961 01:56:52,920 --> 01:56:57,600 Speaker 1: The wolves are competing with subsistent food right for people. 1962 01:56:57,720 --> 01:57:01,560 Speaker 1: So this is it's a bigger issue. The fact that 1963 01:57:01,600 --> 01:57:05,400 Speaker 1: they're trying to recover wolves down there too is is 1964 01:57:05,440 --> 01:57:09,880 Speaker 1: a fascinating thing. More social issues that are far more important. 1965 01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna brush up by my Spanish and go talk 1966 01:57:12,120 --> 01:57:16,720 Speaker 1: to those boys. And it's all private land down there, right, 1967 01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:21,560 Speaker 1: So it's entirely private. You have some national designations on 1968 01:57:21,640 --> 01:57:25,880 Speaker 1: top of private lande. So ranchers where they're doing the reroduction, 1969 01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:29,640 Speaker 1: they have to get ranches to agree to reinduce wolves 1970 01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:33,280 Speaker 1: on their ranch. Those ranches, we me and Yanni have 1971 01:57:33,400 --> 01:57:35,960 Speaker 1: been fortunate to spend some time chasing around down there, 1972 01:57:36,000 --> 01:57:41,400 Speaker 1: and uh, those ranches are like wilderness area equivalents. Sure, 1973 01:57:41,720 --> 01:57:43,280 Speaker 1: there's you be talking to ranch. He's like, well, I 1974 01:57:43,320 --> 01:57:46,880 Speaker 1: haven't been over there in three years. I mean, just 1975 01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:50,520 Speaker 1: like you spend days up hunting maybe now and then 1976 01:57:50,560 --> 01:57:53,600 Speaker 1: you glass up some dude riding the mule, you know, 1977 01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:56,440 Speaker 1: off in the distance. But it's some wild country, man, 1978 01:57:57,240 --> 01:58:03,560 Speaker 1: it's some real wild country. Carl. You got anything, I've 1979 01:58:03,560 --> 01:58:06,680 Speaker 1: got a theme, and it's the theme of one way streets, 1980 01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:11,760 Speaker 1: all right. Things that are hard to take back. So 1981 01:58:13,240 --> 01:58:21,920 Speaker 1: the notion that, for example, preventing an extinction versus trying 1982 01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:25,240 Speaker 1: in the aftermath to respond to an extinction, we've talked 1983 01:58:25,280 --> 01:58:29,879 Speaker 1: about a bit um, the notion that this particular species 1984 01:58:29,880 --> 01:58:32,000 Speaker 1: and others have been so close to the brink. And 1985 01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:35,680 Speaker 1: your point about the the small percentage of species that 1986 01:58:35,720 --> 01:58:38,640 Speaker 1: have been listed and then delisted is de listed because 1987 01:58:38,640 --> 01:58:42,400 Speaker 1: of recovery, right, Well, your point is well taken. But 1988 01:58:42,600 --> 01:58:46,080 Speaker 1: this species, the grizzlies another example, are in far better 1989 01:58:46,200 --> 01:58:49,640 Speaker 1: straits now than they were when they popped onto that list. 1990 01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:51,760 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to remember this, this piece 1991 01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:57,280 Speaker 1: of legislation's only about forty four years old, um, And 1992 01:58:57,400 --> 01:58:59,640 Speaker 1: if you contemplate the amount of time it takes for 1993 01:58:59,800 --> 01:59:03,120 Speaker 1: a species to evolve and the amount of successful work 1994 01:59:03,360 --> 01:59:06,880 Speaker 1: from a conservation perspective that's been achieved during that short 1995 01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:10,640 Speaker 1: period of time, there's a lot to feel really good about. 1996 01:59:11,040 --> 01:59:14,240 Speaker 1: But some other one way streets that are relevant here. 1997 01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:19,320 Speaker 1: One is the loss of a way of life and 1998 01:59:19,360 --> 01:59:23,960 Speaker 1: the changing approach in rural communities to interacting with the land, 1999 01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:27,360 Speaker 1: and the challenges that some of these communities face just 2000 01:59:27,400 --> 01:59:30,360 Speaker 1: in terms of keeping these traditional uses on the landscape. 2001 01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:34,040 Speaker 1: And I love the way John talks about the the 2002 01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:36,440 Speaker 1: approach he takes interacting with those folks. And I know 2003 01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:38,840 Speaker 1: the Center has got a phenomenal skill set as well 2004 01:59:38,880 --> 01:59:41,320 Speaker 1: in terms of relating to these people. And it's not 2005 01:59:41,360 --> 01:59:43,840 Speaker 1: a phony thing. I mean, these guys understand the value 2006 01:59:43,840 --> 01:59:46,720 Speaker 1: of relating to people who are losing cattle, relating to 2007 01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:51,680 Speaker 1: people who are who are on you know, lifestyle occupation. Yes, 2008 01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:55,000 Speaker 1: And I know both of these gentlemen, and I very 2009 01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:58,600 Speaker 1: much value the fact that there are people out there 2010 01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:03,160 Speaker 1: contributing to the retention and of undeveloped land. And that's 2011 02:00:03,200 --> 02:00:06,560 Speaker 1: the last one way street that I'll leave you with 2012 02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:12,960 Speaker 1: is this notion that, uh, once you lose open be 2013 02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:17,000 Speaker 1: at public or private land to development. That's another one 2014 02:00:17,000 --> 02:00:20,880 Speaker 1: way street that is rarely undone. So I see, No, 2015 02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:22,800 Speaker 1: that's a very good point to bring up. I see 2016 02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:25,960 Speaker 1: these these concepts being in the same vein the notion 2017 02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:30,120 Speaker 1: that once something is committed, be at development, be at 2018 02:00:30,120 --> 02:00:33,080 Speaker 1: the loss of a species, be at the urbanization of 2019 02:00:33,120 --> 02:00:37,040 Speaker 1: a culture. It's a heck of a lot harder to 2020 02:00:37,080 --> 02:00:42,920 Speaker 1: bring that back than it is to preserve it. Yeah, 2021 02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:47,360 Speaker 1: point taken. It's good. It's better to yell at your 2022 02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:50,280 Speaker 1: kids when they're little than bail them out of jail 2023 02:00:50,320 --> 02:00:56,840 Speaker 1: when they get older. All right, YEA, Honestly, you didn't 2024 02:00:56,880 --> 02:01:00,920 Speaker 1: have anything. Oh, I gotta do you do you have 2025 02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:03,360 Speaker 1: you any final thoughts? I don't just thank you for 2026 02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:06,320 Speaker 1: bringing up this topic and allowing it to be discussed. 2027 02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:09,960 Speaker 1: Appreciate it. I got a final thought. Um a correction. 2028 02:01:10,840 --> 02:01:15,920 Speaker 1: We're talking sometime ago about um Custer Custer's last stand, 2029 02:01:16,400 --> 02:01:18,280 Speaker 1: and a lot of military guys wrote in that we 2030 02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:27,000 Speaker 1: were using brigadier general the wrong way. Custer, Uh, a 2031 02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:28,800 Speaker 1: breeder general has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 2032 02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:30,800 Speaker 1: I was talking about when during the Civil War, when 2033 02:01:30,800 --> 02:01:34,120 Speaker 1: they had a lot of attrition of officers, they were 2034 02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:38,680 Speaker 1: promoting other officers into into general ships or into the 2035 02:01:38,720 --> 02:01:42,600 Speaker 1: general position on a temporary basis to make up for 2036 02:01:42,640 --> 02:01:46,040 Speaker 1: how quickly they were losing officers. That term, it's not 2037 02:01:46,200 --> 02:01:52,080 Speaker 1: brigadier is a breveted general like Custer when he was 2038 02:01:52,280 --> 02:01:55,240 Speaker 1: when he was a general, Custer was a breveted general, 2039 02:01:55,360 --> 02:01:58,960 Speaker 1: not a brigadier general. And when he died, he was. 2040 02:01:59,280 --> 02:02:04,120 Speaker 1: He died as I believe, lieutenant colonel. So a lot 2041 02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:08,920 Speaker 1: of dudes from the military wrote in um, not in 2042 02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:10,560 Speaker 1: a mean way, just wrote it into be like, dude, 2043 02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:12,600 Speaker 1: you're way off on what a brigadier general is a 2044 02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:16,800 Speaker 1: breveted general. Did they define the brigadier Yeah, I can't 2045 02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:21,760 Speaker 1: remember now what it has to do with like man, omn, 2046 02:02:23,360 --> 02:02:25,320 Speaker 1: just bear with me a minute. I'm just gonna give 2047 02:02:25,320 --> 02:02:27,640 Speaker 1: it right from the We're just gonna get right into 2048 02:02:27,680 --> 02:02:35,280 Speaker 1: it here. Oh you know this, give give this guy 2049 02:02:35,360 --> 02:02:39,920 Speaker 1: your headset Johnnie. No, No, we're gonna let's do We're 2050 02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:48,320 Speaker 1: gonna do it. Ah, you can say stuff from the background. Okay, 2051 02:02:48,880 --> 02:02:52,520 Speaker 1: all right, So if you're not collortable, here we go. Uh. 2052 02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:56,440 Speaker 1: This this feller Alan is saying, uh f y, I 2053 02:02:56,720 --> 02:02:59,240 Speaker 1: just a point of clarification on the subject of bridgie 2054 02:02:59,280 --> 02:03:03,760 Speaker 1: brigadier gener gerals. Brigadier generals are not he's quoting me 2055 02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:10,680 Speaker 1: fake or quote temporary generals. Yeah, the term I called 2056 02:03:10,720 --> 02:03:14,320 Speaker 1: Custer fake general. Um, there are in fact full generals, 2057 02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:17,840 Speaker 1: but the brigadier is a reference to the type of 2058 02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:22,520 Speaker 1: unit they have traditionally commanded, brigades. I think the correct 2059 02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:27,080 Speaker 1: term you're looking for is brevet. Breveted generals were officers 2060 02:03:27,080 --> 02:03:31,520 Speaker 1: of a lower rank who are temporarily or honorarily given 2061 02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:35,600 Speaker 1: the rank of general Brevit's usually occurred during times of war. 2062 02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:41,760 Speaker 1: In this case, Brigadier General Brevett Custer was a regular 2063 02:03:41,880 --> 02:03:46,080 Speaker 1: Army lieutenant colonel who has temporarily promoted to brigadier general 2064 02:03:46,160 --> 02:03:49,919 Speaker 1: during the Civil War and later again to major general. 2065 02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:54,680 Speaker 1: He was actually a lieutenant colonel at the time of 2066 02:03:54,760 --> 02:04:00,680 Speaker 1: his death. So my apologies to uh all you find 2067 02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:04,880 Speaker 1: folks of service who uh who took offense to be 2068 02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:11,040 Speaker 1: talking about fake generals. Oh, that's it, right, that's it. Hey, 2069 02:04:11,120 --> 02:04:13,560 Speaker 1: thank you, Steve, appreciate the time. Yeah, thank you, thanks 2070 02:04:13,600 --> 02:04:15,000 Speaker 1: for listening to everyone.