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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: So, Jake, let me take you back to January twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three. It's a couple weeks after George Santos has

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Speaker 2: been exposed, and he shows up in Washington, DC.

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Speaker 3: That was the first day I saw him in person.

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Speaker 3: I remember we were walking through the Cannon House office

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Speaker 3: building and you could hear a pin drop because people

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Speaker 3: were like, that's George Santos. Did you see that was

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Speaker 3: George Santos. This is Masa Wumer. She was George Santos's

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Speaker 3: communications director. You heard from her in our first episode.

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Speaker 3: She was actually hired back in December of twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: and her first day and the first day she would

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Speaker 3: actually meet Santos in person, came in January. The amount

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Speaker 3: of reporters and cameras that were outside of our office,

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Speaker 3: it reminded me of something that you would see like

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Speaker 3: back in the nineties, like with when Princess Diana would

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Speaker 3: show up somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Wow, this was Nace's first day on the job as

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Speaker 1: the communications director whatever, But it was also George Santos's

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Speaker 1: basically first day. I mean, the scandal's happening, but he

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Speaker 1: hasn't even started his tenures of congressman, or he's just starting.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, their first day is the same first day, and

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Speaker 2: the press are also camped outside the office on that

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Speaker 2: first day, and they remain outside the office even as

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Speaker 2: the week's dragon. They're not really losing interest in the

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Speaker 2: George Sandos story.

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Speaker 3: I've had multiple meetings with individual reporters and they're all

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Speaker 3: saying the same thing. We can't leave until he speaks

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Speaker 3: to the press, until we get a sound bite. We

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Speaker 3: have to stay. And they said, well, we're going to

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Speaker 3: fix this.

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Speaker 2: So she realizes, Okay, well this is not dying down.

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Speaker 2: We're going to book him on some big name show.

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Speaker 2: He's going to do a long sit down interview with

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Speaker 2: a respected journalist, and we're going to prep him for that,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to spend this time before we have

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Speaker 2: the interview even set up, We're going to spend time prepping.

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Speaker 5: The hard part was getting him to sit down and prep.

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Speaker 3: He was very just all over the place, and so

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Speaker 3: I put out like this little list of like the

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Speaker 3: fifteen lies that I've already heard in the news, because,

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Speaker 3: as I said, at this time, it was just you know,

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Speaker 3: obviously his background from you know, work, family, religion, and

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Speaker 3: then the new stuff that was popping up.

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Speaker 1: What are the burning questions of the burning issues at

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Speaker 1: this particular moment that people want to ask him.

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Speaker 2: At this point, the press is looking into a bunch

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Speaker 2: of allegations that have come to light, and one of

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Speaker 2: those stories is that Santos had faced multiple evictions in

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Speaker 2: New York while also claiming publicly that he was a landlord.

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Speaker 4: So there's an inherent contradiction there.

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Speaker 1: That seems like so telling that he's being evicted and

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Speaker 1: yet he's claiming to be a landlord. This is just

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Speaker 1: stark contrast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also new info and new allegations coming out

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Speaker 2: basically on a daily basis.

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Speaker 6: A New Jersey veteran says that the congressman organized a

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Speaker 6: fundraiser for his dying service dog back in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 6: only to pocket the money himself.

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Speaker 7: In Brazil, a local performer claims Santos was Katara Ravash

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Speaker 7: and that he once performed as a drag queen, something

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Speaker 7: the New York congressman strongly denies.

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Speaker 4: Hash media reports quote.

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Speaker 8: Two former Santos roommates told Patch several items went missing

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Speaker 8: while they lived with Santos, including phones, expensive dress shirts,

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Speaker 8: and checks from a check book.

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Speaker 2: So it's just basically, every time Lisa turns around, there's

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Speaker 2: a new story that she has to scramble, figure out

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Speaker 2: what their statement is going to be, and follow up

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Speaker 2: with all the journalists that are asking her questions.

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Speaker 1: So when Nisa is prepping him for this this interview,

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Speaker 1: what's her take on it. Does she feel that he

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Speaker 1: is being like forthright with her? Does she still have

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Speaker 1: faith in him as someone who is credible or not.

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Speaker 2: I think Nasa is stepping into this role and saying,

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Speaker 2: I have been hired to do a job, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to do the best job I can do despite

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Speaker 2: the circumstances. And you know, Nasa told me that Santos

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Speaker 2: was always maintaining to her in their private conversations that

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Speaker 2: he had answers for all of these things. And so

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Speaker 2: when she's in that position where this is her boss,

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Speaker 2: she wants to believe him, and she wants to have

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Speaker 2: his back, and she wants to set him up for

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Speaker 2: success because her boats tied to his.

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Speaker 4: You know, oh my god, it's just like it.

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Speaker 3: Even though I was with him for five months, it

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Speaker 3: probably felt like five hundred years at that point. And

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Speaker 3: my joke is always my theme song every day felt

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Speaker 3: like was the led Zeppelin song when the levee breaks.

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Speaker 5: It's just waiting for that to happen. So oh wait,

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Speaker 5: it did.

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Speaker 4: Keeps this God.

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Speaker 2: So in this episode, we're going to get into what

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Speaker 2: Nisa and others would come to learn about George Santos

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Speaker 2: while trying to sort fact from fiction stories that he's

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Speaker 2: told about his family, specifically his mother. And while these

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Speaker 2: stories are not necessarily related to the charges against him,

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Speaker 2: I think they reveal something deeper about his character. And

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Speaker 2: there's one story he told in particular that really struck

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Speaker 2: an earth. This is deep cover George Santos Episode two,

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Speaker 2: The Congressman.

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Speaker 3: There are a few people in this world you should

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Speaker 3: not lie. Your lawyer, your doctor, and your communications director.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I would ideally include spouse in there

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 4: Just say to say, spoken like a true husband. Yess Okay.

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Speaker 1: So how does it go when she tries to prep him?

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Speaker 3: Just getting him to sit down and prep was always

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Speaker 3: it was like it's like getting a child to sit

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Speaker 3: down and do their homework, so very hard.

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Speaker 2: But she does get the chance to prep him briefly,

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Speaker 2: and at a certain point in these conversations, the tone shifts.

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Speaker 5: I'd say one of the hardest conversations I had was

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Speaker 5: the death of his mother.

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Speaker 2: So in twenty twenty one, George Santos tweeted nine to eleven,

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Speaker 2: claimed my mother's life. And in the aftermath of the

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Speaker 2: New York Times reporting, people find that tweet and they

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Speaker 2: start asking more questions about that, and it was actually

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Speaker 2: mentioned on Santos's campaign website. It's actually still on his

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Speaker 2: website to this day. It says, quote, George's mother was

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Speaker 2: in her office in the South Tower on September eleventh,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one, when the horrific events of that

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Speaker 2: day unfolded, And it goes on to say she survived

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Speaker 2: the tragic events on September eleventh, but she passed away

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Speaker 2: a few years later when she lost her battle to cancer.

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Speaker 4: And this is.

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Speaker 2: One of the allegations against him that this is not true.

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Speaker 2: People do not find evidence to substantiate the fact that

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Speaker 2: his mother was there. And NASA knows that this is

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Speaker 2: something he's going to get asked about, so in her

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Speaker 2: attempts to prep him, this is something that they talk

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Speaker 2: about in detail.

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Speaker 1: Wait, what are the holes that people are poking in

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Speaker 1: this story? At least initially or are there any.

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Speaker 2: So when Santos's tweet comes to like, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of questions because when you say nine to eleven claim

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Speaker 2: my mother's life, that seems to imply that your mother

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Speaker 2: died on nine eleven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought when you when you read it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then it quickly becomes clear through reporting and

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Speaker 2: just public records that his mother died in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things we had talked about with

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Speaker 3: him was just did she because I saw the timeline

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Speaker 3: of her death and I had thought, well, I remembered

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Speaker 3: John Stewart was starting to highlight a lot of problems

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Speaker 3: that like first responders were starting to die as a

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Speaker 3: result of nine to eleven from exposure to the ash

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Speaker 3: and dust that came from the World Trade Center.

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Speaker 2: So Nisa, in that moment understands that maybe it was

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Speaker 2: just an error in how Santos chose to phrase the tweet,

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Speaker 2: but that his mother died in twenty sixteen from cancer

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Speaker 2: which was linked to her time at Ground zero. That

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Speaker 2: was the claim that Santos was making. OKAYNSA is saying, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to be making this claim in public,

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Speaker 2: then let's break it down. Let's talk through the details

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Speaker 2: of this because you will be asked about it, right.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like he can kind of make that

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Speaker 1: argument some incredibly because on the website it's saying she

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Speaker 1: passed away a few years later when she lost her

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Speaker 1: battle to cancer. You know, it seems to me like

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Speaker 1: he's actually got some cover here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and she's quickly picking up on what he's saying,

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Speaker 2: which is that no, no, no, I'm claiming that she

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Speaker 2: died later as a result of her exposure to ground zero.

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Speaker 4: Okay, but Nesa wants details.

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Speaker 3: And I asked him, I said, did she die as

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Speaker 3: a result of nine to eleven? And he said yes.

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Speaker 3: I said, okay, so let's just break it down. Was

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Speaker 3: she in the north of the South Tower? And he

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Speaker 3: said the South Tower? I said, all right, so she

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Speaker 3: was in the South Tower on September eleventh, Okay, like,

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Speaker 3: do you remember what floors she worked on? And he

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Speaker 3: just you know, she worked for a cleaning company. So

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Speaker 3: I did not have the He did not give out

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Speaker 3: the specific floors. I think he I think he tried

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Speaker 3: to say it was like the thirty fourth or something,

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Speaker 3: and I said, okay, Well, so she did work in

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Speaker 3: the World Trade Center and he said yes. I said,

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Speaker 3: all right, so she got out of the building. Yes,

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Speaker 3: she got out of the building. I said, okay, so

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Speaker 3: she escaped, she's she's safe. And I said, but you know,

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Speaker 3: was she exposed to the dust and he said yes,

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Speaker 3: And I thought, okay.

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Speaker 2: So finally this is starting to make sense for Nissa.

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Speaker 2: She can understand the narrative that Santos has been telling,

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Speaker 2: and even though he doesn't have all of the details,

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Speaker 2: NASA is advising him. You know, this is a powerful story.

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Speaker 2: This is an experience that people can relate to.

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Speaker 3: You know, people will want to see a human side

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Speaker 3: to you like that. And I said, maybe that's just

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Speaker 3: that's something you should talk about.

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Speaker 5: Hmm.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because I heard that tape and I hear

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Speaker 1: her kind of poking a little bit too.

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Speaker 2: Well, right, she's doing her job. She's saying, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to prep you for these interviews. Here's all of the

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Speaker 2: questions that you may be asked about this, So let's

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Speaker 2: try to get some specifics down.

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Speaker 8: Right, m hm.

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Speaker 3: And then a few weeks later, I think the New

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Speaker 3: York Times or MSNBC had reached out and said they

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Speaker 3: had found proof that she wasn't in the country, and

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Speaker 3: I thought, oh my god, this is like, why are

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Speaker 3: you doing this? It just I thought why, like why?

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the question, right, Does she have any

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Speaker 1: answer to that question?

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Speaker 2: I would argue NASA is still looking for her why

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Speaker 2: And NISA isn't the only one that's trying to make

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Speaker 2: sense out of all this. The guy that I think

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Speaker 2: has gone the deepest down the rabbit hole is a

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Speaker 2: journalist's named Mark Gisano, and what he's found reshaped the

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Speaker 2: way I think about George Santos. That's coming up next.

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Speaker 2: I had to call the guy who has done, in

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Speaker 2: my opinion, the best reporting on Santos's family and his background.

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Speaker 2: His name is Mark Gisano, and he wrote a book

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Speaker 2: with a very long title.

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Speaker 7: The book is called The Fabulous, the Lying, Hustling, drifting, stealing,

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Speaker 7: and very American legend of George Santos.

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Speaker 2: Mark worked for Newsday, basically one of the only major

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Speaker 2: newspapers left on Long Island, and he's covered Santos since

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Speaker 2: his first campaign.

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Speaker 7: Back then, he sort of had to pick up the

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Speaker 7: phone because no one was really calling him, and so

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Speaker 7: he would he would answer me or he would send

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Speaker 7: a statement or he would have someone call me.

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Speaker 1: What was Mark's early take on Santos, like in those

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Speaker 1: first interactions.

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Speaker 2: So Mark told me that Santos seemed somewhat evasive.

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Speaker 7: He definitely, you know, kind of would allied details and

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Speaker 7: sort of tell you stuff that didn't totally make sense.

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Speaker 7: But it was hard to tell in the beginning. This

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Speaker 7: is what a lot of first time candidates.

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Speaker 2: Are like, right, And as time went on, of course,

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Speaker 2: it would become clear to Mark and everyone right that

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Speaker 2: Santos was not being transparent about his life on the

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Speaker 2: campaign trail. It strikes me reading through different stories of

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Speaker 2: Santo's stories that he's told about himself that a lot

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Speaker 2: of the stories about him seemed to start with the

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Speaker 2: story of his mom. So what was the story about

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Speaker 2: his mother that he was telling?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, his mom was pretty central his campaign. You know,

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Speaker 7: she really loomed large. He called her a Wall Street executive,

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Speaker 7: you know, one of the first female executives on Wall

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Speaker 7: Street or something of that effect. He said that she

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Speaker 7: escaped the South Tower during nine to eleven. He said

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Speaker 7: that she was a big political actor. He claims that

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Speaker 7: she had donated over I think he said something like

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Speaker 7: twenty years donated to Republican politicians. He even said that

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Speaker 7: she campaigned for Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani, that is, and brought

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Speaker 7: him along with her, that he had fond memories of this.

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Speaker 7: So this was his the image that he painted of her.

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Speaker 7: And the funny thing with Santos is that the truth

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Speaker 7: and the fiction is sort of intermingled, and sometimes what

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Speaker 7: starts as a pebble of truth, as one of his

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Speaker 7: relatives told me, you know, turns into this kind of

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Speaker 7: large mountain of lies.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a bunch to unpack there, but one thing

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Speaker 1: that jumps out is that when he was talking to

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Speaker 1: NASA about prepping for that press conference, NASA says that

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Speaker 1: he described his mother as working for a cleaning company

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Speaker 1: in the World Trade Center. So that's at odds with

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Speaker 1: her being a Wall Street executive here.

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Speaker 2: No, yes, you've hit on one of the first key

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Speaker 2: discrepancies that people pick up on. You know. Santos tells

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Speaker 2: this story about his mother, and because we have the Internet,

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Speaker 2: everyone can kind of compare notes. He tells the story differently,

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Speaker 2: so in certain tellings she's a financial executive, in other tellings,

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Speaker 2: she's working as a cleaner. In the towers, and it's

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Speaker 2: a bit hard to parse out if any of that

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Speaker 2: is true. But also, you know, he's projecting a version

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Speaker 2: of his mom that in many ways mirrors the version

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Speaker 2: of himself that he was promoting. Mark is very keen

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Speaker 2: to figure out what parts of the story that Santos

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Speaker 2: told about his mom, what parts of that can be substantiated,

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Speaker 2: and he even travels to Brazil to report out, you know,

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Speaker 2: what the family's history there is.

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Speaker 7: Like, so to be careful. I tried to really see

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Speaker 7: what if any of that story about his mother was true.

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Speaker 7: And all I can say is what we've found out

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Speaker 7: is certainly not true. No campaign finance records show any

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Speaker 7: evidence of her donating. She does not appear to have

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Speaker 7: voted in any election in New York or elsewhere. She

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Speaker 7: also does not appear to be a citizen, at least

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Speaker 7: according to her own immigration records. So totally not, you know,

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Speaker 7: not the story that he was telling.

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Speaker 2: So pretty quickly Mark breaks this down and he's able

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Speaker 2: to say, so much of the story that Santos tells

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Speaker 2: about his mother just doesn't check out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and what seems to be clear to me that

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Speaker 1: there's a pattern here with Santo's which is where there

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Speaker 1: are small lies. If you dig deeper, there are bigger lies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like Mark said, the pebble that becomes

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Speaker 2: the mountain.

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Speaker 7: Then there's this nine to eleven story, which very central

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Speaker 7: to the story he was telling about her, and I

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Speaker 7: think struck a nerve in New York where people do

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Speaker 7: have nine to eleven stories and everyone kind of says,

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Speaker 7: you know, talks about where you were that day, right,

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Speaker 7: and doubly so on Long Island, where so many that

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Speaker 7: his constituents were cops or firefighters, right, or bankers too,

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Speaker 7: who were you know, in the building, So a big

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Speaker 7: deal to lie about. And again, you know, very hard

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Speaker 7: to prove a negative. But her own immigration paperwork said

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Speaker 7: that she was not in the country at the time.

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Speaker 7: In fact, she herself filed paperwork in I think it

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Speaker 7: was June of that year from Nitsiroi, which is the

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Speaker 7: city outside of Rio where she grew up. So again

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Speaker 7: you can lie on paperwork. It's sometimes immigrants sort of

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Speaker 7: don't aren't exactly clear on where they were and when.

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Speaker 7: But no evidence to suggest that she was escaping, and

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Speaker 7: in fact, in Santos's campaign materials, he said that she

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Speaker 7: escaped the South Tower from her office as a financial

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Speaker 7: executive right which again there's no evidence that she was

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Speaker 7: involved in finance at all.

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Speaker 1: So what do we actually know for sure about Santo's

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Speaker 1: his family, their background.

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Speaker 2: So the real story of George Santos starts in Queens.

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Speaker 2: The family did not have a lot of money, you know,

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Speaker 2: Santos says they he grew up in abject poverty, and

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Speaker 2: that appears to be true. His mother, you know, took

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Speaker 2: care of him and his sister. According to Mark, George

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Speaker 2: Santos and his mother, Fatima had a very close but

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Speaker 2: also complicated relationship.

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Speaker 7: They seem to have been very close and also in

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Speaker 7: the way that many close relationships work, also kind of

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Speaker 7: butted heads a lot. I spoke to one person who

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Speaker 7: you know, worked on the campaign with Santos. This is

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Speaker 7: kind of later on after she's dead, years after she's dead,

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Speaker 7: by the way, and Santos would still kind of have

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Speaker 7: a kind of shakiness to his voice when he mentioned her,

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Speaker 7: right in a way that didn't seem to be acting.

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Speaker 7: It was kind of it was it seemed real. He

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Speaker 7: would live with her as an adult, you know, from

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Speaker 7: time to time they were actual roommates, and even that

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Speaker 7: was kind of it would it would have its ups

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Speaker 7: and downs.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 7: There would be moments when he was living, say, you know,

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Speaker 7: in another part of Queen's, and he would come to

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Speaker 7: visit her and see her because he seemed to missed her,

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Speaker 7: one roommate told me. And on the other hand, sometimes

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Speaker 7: they were living together and he would get in these

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Speaker 7: kind of huge fights with her, screaming, screaming, cursing so

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Speaker 7: intense that his mother, Fatima, would go into her own

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Speaker 7: bedroom and close the door and start crying. So this

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Speaker 7: was kind of the back and forth with them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so he has this kind of stormy relationship with

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Speaker 1: his mom, really close to living together. How old is

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Speaker 1: he when when his mom gets cancer.

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Speaker 2: He would have been in his late twenties when his

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Speaker 2: mom died of cancer, And.

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Speaker 1: How does that play out for Santos.

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Speaker 7: Fatima gets sick, and Santos seems to have taken that

355
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Speaker 7: very hard and tried to take care of her, tried

356
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Speaker 7: to help her.

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Speaker 2: While this is going on, Santos appears to have struggled

358
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Speaker 2: to pay rent more than once. So at the time

359
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Speaker 2: where his mother is sick with cancer, Santos is appearing

360
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Speaker 2: in court, and Mark told me about one such moment

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Speaker 2: like this back in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 7: At one time he shows up in court one of

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Speaker 7: his interactions with housing court in New York, where he's

364
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Speaker 7: trying to explain why he didn't pay the rent, and

365
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Speaker 7: one of his excuses is that he's caring for his mother, right,

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Speaker 7: which you know, don't know if that means that he

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Speaker 7: wasn't actually able to pay, but it does sort of

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Speaker 7: show their relationship and kind of their their bombs, their proximity.

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Speaker 7: So she gets sick, she remains sick, and unfortunately she

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Speaker 7: dies in twenty sixteen. Some people see this as a

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Speaker 7: real moment of transition for Santos that he kind of

372
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Speaker 7: loses obviously his sort of close friend, someone who's very

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Speaker 7: important to him, and that that's when he seems to

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Speaker 7: kind of lose control of his own story and narrative.

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Speaker 1: That's really it's just really poignant, like the idea that

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Speaker 1: he's like his mother's dying and he's basically so poor

377
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Speaker 1: that he's going before the court and saying I can't

378
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Speaker 1: pay my rent and I'm caring for my dying mother.

379
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Speaker 1: It's so interesting he invents these stories to kind of

380
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Speaker 1: engender our sympathy, but here it almost sounds like the

381
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Speaker 1: real one is perfectly sympathetic in its truthful form.

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Speaker 2: Yes, although I will say, because we were talking about

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Speaker 2: George Santos, when you think you have reached the truth,

384
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Speaker 2: there is usually a catch.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, yeah, maybe I'm a complete sucker to

386
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Speaker 1: think that he would tell the judge the truth. And

387
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Speaker 1: I have this feeling that you're about to tell me

388
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Speaker 1: something about his mother's death that's going to completely undermine

389
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Speaker 1: the sympathy that I just fell for him.

390
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Speaker 2: Unfortunately. Yes, So what Mark has found through his reporting

391
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Speaker 2: around Fatima's death is just really striking. Specifically, one story

392
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Speaker 2: around Fatima's.

393
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Speaker 7: Funeral, Santa's mother, Fatima passes away, Santos says that he's

394
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Speaker 7: unable to kind of pay for the funeral costs, right,

395
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Speaker 7: He and his sister have had a hard time caring

396
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Speaker 7: for her and they need money basically, And so luckily

397
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Speaker 7: they're all part of this church community, Saint Rita's and

398
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Speaker 7: Queen's very close knit, kind of beautiful church. It's a

399
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Speaker 7: really nice kind of communal place, and people there remember

400
00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,836
Speaker 7: Santos and his sister, and so the church has a

401
00:22:20,436 --> 00:22:22,596
Speaker 7: they put out a kind of a call for help,

402
00:22:22,676 --> 00:22:25,476
Speaker 7: and they collect money for the family, right, and it's

403
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Speaker 7: in one of those collection box like typical Catholic church,

404
00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:32,076
Speaker 7: and that that box is that that basket is handed

405
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Speaker 7: to Santos. And what we know is that the funeral

406
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Speaker 7: home was never paid their debt for Fatima's service. So

407
00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:43,836
Speaker 7: we don't know exactly what happened with that with that box,

408
00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:47,076
Speaker 7: but it left the church's hand and didn't seem to

409
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Speaker 7: leave Santos's.

410
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Speaker 1: How much money are we talking about here?

411
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Speaker 2: One of Mark's sources estimated it was somewhere around six

412
00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:55,276
Speaker 2: thousand dollars.

413
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Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, okay, this is so crazy. I just

414
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Speaker 1: want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. Like he

415
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Speaker 1: collected this money from all these people in this church

416
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Speaker 1: under the guys that he was going to pay the

417
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Speaker 1: funeral home for his mother's funeral, and he takes the

418
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Speaker 1: money and never pays the funeral home.

419
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Speaker 4: That appears to be what happened.

420
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Speaker 1: I'm really speechless. On some level, we're talking about, like

421
00:23:24,876 --> 00:23:27,516
Speaker 1: how do you wrap your mind around lies? So there's

422
00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:32,116
Speaker 1: lies of opportunism that we feel, we understand that politicians

423
00:23:32,156 --> 00:23:36,676
Speaker 1: will bend the truth embellish the truth, inflate their resumes

424
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Speaker 1: in ways that make them look greater than they really are.

425
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Speaker 1: And it's not right, but we get it. That's part

426
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Speaker 1: of the grammy business of how politics is done. But

427
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Speaker 1: this is just something altogether different, right, Yeah, what's your

428
00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:53,556
Speaker 1: take on this?

429
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Speaker 4: No, I'm with you.

430
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Speaker 2: I was astounded by this and at a loss for

431
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Speaker 2: words even now.

432
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Speaker 1: I mean, it just raised to the question, what, if anything,

433
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Speaker 1: do we hold sacred. He clearly was close to his mom,

434
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Speaker 1: that seems undeniable with her. Maybe they fought, but they

435
00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:14,876
Speaker 1: were also very close. And then he's lying about the

436
00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:17,396
Speaker 1: manner of her death as a way of self promotion.

437
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Speaker 1: And then when it comes time to put her to rest,

438
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Speaker 1: he goes to the community of which she was a

439
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Speaker 1: part of, asks for their help in her name to

440
00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:32,236
Speaker 1: honor her properly, and then embezzles the money. That's just

441
00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:38,076
Speaker 1: a level of deceit that is that cannot be explained

442
00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:39,916
Speaker 1: by opportunism alone.

443
00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:43,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to wonder what was motivating him at

444
00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:46,116
Speaker 2: that point, And we don't know what his financial state

445
00:24:46,356 --> 00:24:48,356
Speaker 2: was in that moment, so it's possible that he was

446
00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:51,196
Speaker 2: really desperate and needed that money and that's maybe one

447
00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:53,756
Speaker 2: explanation for why the funeral home never got that money.

448
00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:56,716
Speaker 2: But we just haven't gotten answers on this, so we

449
00:24:56,756 --> 00:24:59,676
Speaker 2: won't know more about it. And of course there's lots

450
00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:02,236
Speaker 2: of things we still haven't gotten answers on.

451
00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:06,876
Speaker 4: And you know, when you're dealing with Santos, even the.

452
00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:11,556
Speaker 2: People closest to him, including his own staffers, have spent

453
00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:14,236
Speaker 2: a lot of time just trying to pry the truth

454
00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:25,276
Speaker 2: out of him. More on that after the break. I

455
00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:29,596
Speaker 2: want to bring us back to NASA, Santos's communications director,

456
00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:33,916
Speaker 2: because when we last heard from her, she was prepping

457
00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:37,556
Speaker 2: for this big TV interview where she had hoped that

458
00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:38,396
Speaker 2: he would come clean.

459
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,956
Speaker 3: Whether you sit down with someone like Chuck Todd or

460
00:25:42,036 --> 00:25:45,956
Speaker 3: Tucker Carlson, they're all going to be equally tough on you,

461
00:25:46,556 --> 00:25:48,196
Speaker 3: and I want to find the right one who is

462
00:25:48,236 --> 00:25:50,876
Speaker 3: going to be tough but like firm but fair.

463
00:25:51,436 --> 00:25:53,236
Speaker 2: If you have any guesses on who they go with,

464
00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:57,436
Speaker 2: I have no idea. They do not get Chuck Todd,

465
00:25:58,196 --> 00:26:00,796
Speaker 2: they do not get Tucker Carlson, but they do get

466
00:26:00,996 --> 00:26:03,316
Speaker 2: a journalist from across the pond, Piers Morgan.

467
00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:06,596
Speaker 3: When Peers' team reached out, I thought, this is it,

468
00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:09,356
Speaker 3: this is this is my opportunity. We'll do it with

469
00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:13,996
Speaker 3: a well known British journalist who has zero skin in

470
00:26:14,036 --> 00:26:16,796
Speaker 3: the game when it comes to American politics, and he's

471
00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:19,036
Speaker 3: going to be equally tough on a Republican as he

472
00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:22,076
Speaker 3: would be with a Democrat. So I thought, he's going

473
00:26:22,116 --> 00:26:24,476
Speaker 3: to be in the United States this week. Let's set

474
00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:26,116
Speaker 3: this up and get.

475
00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:28,476
Speaker 5: It over with. Rip this band aid off and we'll

476
00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:28,996
Speaker 5: be done.

477
00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:33,716
Speaker 2: The Peers interview prepping for that, what are you hoping

478
00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:40,356
Speaker 2: or expecting that he'll say the truth? So George sits

479
00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:43,276
Speaker 2: down for an interview with Piers Morgan on his show

480
00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:49,236
Speaker 2: called Piers Morgan Uncensored, and Piers goes there. He asks

481
00:26:49,396 --> 00:26:50,876
Speaker 2: Santos about his mother.

482
00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:54,916
Speaker 8: I want to turn to something it's obviously very personal

483
00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:59,156
Speaker 8: to you, and that's your own mother and this question

484
00:26:59,236 --> 00:27:02,356
Speaker 8: of whether she was working, as you claimed, in her

485
00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:05,156
Speaker 8: office in the South Tower of the Twin Towers on

486
00:27:05,196 --> 00:27:07,916
Speaker 8: September the eleventh, and then passed toways you said a

487
00:27:07,916 --> 00:27:10,836
Speaker 8: few years later when she lost a battle to cancer.

488
00:27:11,276 --> 00:27:14,876
Speaker 8: Now there is no record of your mother, Fatima Divolda,

489
00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:19,156
Speaker 8: ever having worked in the Twin Towers, So what's that true?

490
00:27:19,436 --> 00:27:22,116
Speaker 8: That's true? Why is there no record of the work?

491
00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:25,076
Speaker 6: I don't know where people are looking or what they're looking.

492
00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:27,836
Speaker 8: For, but there is obviously no because of what happened afterwards,

493
00:27:28,236 --> 00:27:30,876
Speaker 8: there's a record of everyone that were there. There's no

494
00:27:30,916 --> 00:27:33,996
Speaker 8: doubt about who were there. I'm sorry, Well, there's no

495
00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:34,716
Speaker 8: doubt about who is.

496
00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:37,436
Speaker 6: There's no doubt if who worked in the buildings on the.

497
00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:38,436
Speaker 8: There was a full record done.

498
00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:39,676
Speaker 7: I'm very aware.

499
00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,996
Speaker 6: So the way that I look at this, and I've

500
00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:47,156
Speaker 6: rest this case before, and respectfully, please, I won't debate

501
00:27:47,276 --> 00:27:51,556
Speaker 6: my mother's life as she's passed in sixteen, and I

502
00:27:51,596 --> 00:27:54,716
Speaker 6: think it's it's quite unsensitive for everybody to want to

503
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:57,796
Speaker 6: rehash my mother's legacy.

504
00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:03,396
Speaker 1: It's painful to listen to like you can feel his

505
00:28:03,556 --> 00:28:07,076
Speaker 1: mind kind of churning to come up with something.

506
00:28:08,196 --> 00:28:14,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, as the journalist, you never want to

507
00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:16,436
Speaker 2: be a part of this story. But I found at

508
00:28:16,476 --> 00:28:19,596
Speaker 2: a certain point I needed to say the thing that

509
00:28:19,636 --> 00:28:23,236
Speaker 2: I was thinking the whole time, and I started getting

510
00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:24,556
Speaker 2: into that with Mark.

511
00:28:24,436 --> 00:28:26,716
Speaker 4: The reporter who wrote the book on George Santos.

512
00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:29,036
Speaker 2: I'll share a little bit here. I grew up in

513
00:28:29,036 --> 00:28:32,996
Speaker 2: Santos's district. My father was a first responder on nine

514
00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:34,836
Speaker 2: to eleven. He was a New York City police officer,

515
00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:38,956
Speaker 2: and he did develop cancer that is believed to be

516
00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:42,716
Speaker 2: related to his exposure, and he passed away in twenty seventeen.

517
00:28:43,076 --> 00:28:45,076
Speaker 4: So sorry to hear that, Thank you.

518
00:28:46,196 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 2: The story that he's telling has a lot of resemblance

519
00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:51,556
Speaker 2: to the story that my family shares. There is this

520
00:28:51,676 --> 00:28:55,356
Speaker 2: community specifically on Long Island that cares a lot about

521
00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:59,916
Speaker 2: this specific issue of benefits for first responders and has

522
00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:03,316
Speaker 2: a lot of sympathy and empathy for that situation, And

523
00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:05,596
Speaker 2: so I think it's just a very specific lie.

524
00:29:06,116 --> 00:29:09,556
Speaker 7: It is in the same way that his story about

525
00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:12,916
Speaker 7: Jewish heritage was very specific. But I think he has

526
00:29:12,956 --> 00:29:16,356
Speaker 7: a good year for some of these things. And he's

527
00:29:16,396 --> 00:29:18,916
Speaker 7: not from Long Island, but like most New Yorkers, he

528
00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:22,396
Speaker 7: kind of knows it very well and kind of understands

529
00:29:22,436 --> 00:29:24,396
Speaker 7: I think all of its kind of highs and lows,

530
00:29:24,436 --> 00:29:26,876
Speaker 7: the kind of glittery Hampton's part of of Long Island,

531
00:29:26,956 --> 00:29:31,516
Speaker 7: but also this this story of first responders and great tragedy,

532
00:29:31,676 --> 00:29:34,716
Speaker 7: right and the kind of gritty reality of Long Island.

533
00:29:34,716 --> 00:29:37,716
Speaker 7: And I think that that he was aware of that

534
00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:38,756
Speaker 7: and kind of used.

535
00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:44,436
Speaker 1: That your dad was a New York City police officer, right, Yes?

536
00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:47,076
Speaker 1: Was he? Was? He a motorcycle cop? Am I'm memory

537
00:29:47,156 --> 00:29:47,716
Speaker 1: that correctly?

538
00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:50,876
Speaker 2: You are? My dad rode a motorcycle for a highway

539
00:29:50,956 --> 00:29:55,156
Speaker 2: unit actually based out of Queen's Okay, Well, yeah, I mean,

540
00:29:55,996 --> 00:29:57,996
Speaker 2: I will be honest and say I did not expect

541
00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:01,556
Speaker 2: the conversation with NASA or with Mark to go there,

542
00:30:02,556 --> 00:30:06,636
Speaker 2: but in both cases it did. And obviously it's something

543
00:30:06,636 --> 00:30:09,636
Speaker 2: that as much as I want to stay objective and

544
00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:14,956
Speaker 2: remove myself from the reporting, I can't forget the fact

545
00:30:14,956 --> 00:30:16,516
Speaker 2: that this is a huge part of my life and

546
00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 2: my family and our legacy, honestly, and I almost can't

547
00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:27,876
Speaker 2: put towards how angry I feel hearing that someone is

548
00:30:27,956 --> 00:30:33,116
Speaker 2: co opting that narrative for their own personal gain, because

549
00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:37,316
Speaker 2: it's a real narrative that has taken people's lives and

550
00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:41,436
Speaker 2: destroyed families and people live with that. And the fact

551
00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:47,956
Speaker 2: that he would potentially try to claim this when there's

552
00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:49,916
Speaker 2: been no evidence to corroborate.

553
00:30:49,396 --> 00:30:55,076
Speaker 9: It is just kind of infuriating, like he's appropriating, he's

554
00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:57,236
Speaker 9: using the legacy of the Holocaust, and then he's in

555
00:30:57,276 --> 00:31:00,276
Speaker 9: this case, using the legacy of first responders.

556
00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:03,676
Speaker 1: These are two tragedies that resonate with his constituents, and

557
00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:08,516
Speaker 1: he's claiming them both as his own in a way

558
00:31:08,556 --> 00:31:11,596
Speaker 1: that he has to understand is going to and gender

559
00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:15,596
Speaker 1: sympathy and bolster his popularity.

560
00:31:15,756 --> 00:31:17,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that this is a moment where

561
00:31:17,196 --> 00:31:20,356
Speaker 2: that really clarified for me. You know, you could look

562
00:31:20,396 --> 00:31:24,516
Speaker 2: at the lies that he's told and say, well, to

563
00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:26,556
Speaker 2: what end is he doing this? And then I think

564
00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:29,676
Speaker 2: when you focus on a few of these stories, you

565
00:31:29,756 --> 00:31:34,596
Speaker 2: see the intentionality. You see that there is a reason

566
00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:39,116
Speaker 2: that it's this specific lie and it's speaking directly to

567
00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:42,676
Speaker 2: people who would then put him in office. There are

568
00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:48,156
Speaker 2: still first responders who are receiving treatment related to illnesses

569
00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:51,716
Speaker 2: that stem from their time at Ground Zero. There were

570
00:31:51,756 --> 00:31:55,276
Speaker 2: real people who were harmed here because they were lied to,

571
00:31:55,396 --> 00:31:58,196
Speaker 2: but also because in some cases their stories were.

572
00:31:59,596 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 4: Use against them in a way.

573
00:32:01,436 --> 00:32:05,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy though, Like, did he not think he

574
00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:09,476
Speaker 1: was going to be confronted with these facts that there's

575
00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:11,676
Speaker 1: a record everyone that worked there, because of how much

576
00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:16,396
Speaker 1: significance that attack had.

577
00:32:16,476 --> 00:32:18,436
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, it's a good question.

578
00:32:18,956 --> 00:32:22,036
Speaker 2: You see this time and time again with George Santos,

579
00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:25,956
Speaker 2: where he's faced with an allegation, he claims to have

580
00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:30,556
Speaker 2: evidence or proof, but then we never see that evidence, right.

581
00:32:31,316 --> 00:32:33,676
Speaker 2: But the thing that is striking to me is there

582
00:32:33,716 --> 00:32:36,596
Speaker 2: are certain lies that he has admitted were.

583
00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:38,996
Speaker 1: Lies, Like what was what's an example of that?

584
00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:43,796
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he admitted, Okay, I didn't go to Baruch.

585
00:32:44,036 --> 00:32:46,676
Speaker 1: Looking back on that lie, that seems like small fry

586
00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:47,596
Speaker 1: compared to this.

587
00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:50,076
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and I mean why does he still

588
00:32:50,076 --> 00:32:52,516
Speaker 2: hold on to this story about his mother even when

589
00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:55,636
Speaker 2: so many people have challenged him on it. There's one

590
00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:58,316
Speaker 2: version of the story that Santos tells, which is that

591
00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:03,396
Speaker 2: his mother passed away in twenty sixteen from cancer, and

592
00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:04,676
Speaker 2: that appears to be true.

593
00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:05,796
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's all he said.

594
00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:09,556
Speaker 2: Yes, But then there's another version, or there's an extend version,

595
00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:15,196
Speaker 2: if you will, that links her illness to her experience

596
00:33:15,196 --> 00:33:18,996
Speaker 2: at ground zero. And that's the part that most people

597
00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:22,836
Speaker 2: have come to the conclusion is not true, cannot be substantiated.

598
00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:25,876
Speaker 2: But it is a part that Santos has doubled down

599
00:33:25,876 --> 00:33:28,636
Speaker 2: on again with those retractions, like he'll admit, okay, I

600
00:33:28,636 --> 00:33:31,516
Speaker 2: didn't go to Bruke, but my mother did die as

601
00:33:31,556 --> 00:33:32,516
Speaker 2: a result of nine to eleven.

602
00:33:32,676 --> 00:33:34,076
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what do you make of that?

603
00:33:35,276 --> 00:33:37,396
Speaker 7: This was kind of the crazy part about reporting this

604
00:33:37,436 --> 00:33:39,676
Speaker 7: book is I would go down these rabbit holes and

605
00:33:40,036 --> 00:33:42,596
Speaker 7: start thinking about, like what is the nature of truth?

606
00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:46,716
Speaker 7: You know, like, what can I actually like tell the

607
00:33:46,756 --> 00:33:50,236
Speaker 7: reader is real about this guy's story. You know, typical

608
00:33:50,316 --> 00:33:54,836
Speaker 7: relationships between human beings, You just we assumes what someone

609
00:33:54,876 --> 00:33:57,076
Speaker 7: is telling you is true because that's the easiest way

610
00:33:57,116 --> 00:34:00,356
Speaker 7: for a society to function. And so there were moments

611
00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:02,116
Speaker 7: when I was working on this where I would start

612
00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:05,396
Speaker 7: making excuses for Santos, like, oh, who knows, maybe she

613
00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:09,236
Speaker 7: worked as a cleaner in one of the towers and

614
00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,516
Speaker 7: maybe she kind of got out you know during you know,

615
00:34:12,556 --> 00:34:16,916
Speaker 7: after that kind of experience. Who knows that could be true. Unfortunately,

616
00:34:16,916 --> 00:34:20,476
Speaker 7: Santos hasn't given us any more details or any more

617
00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:24,516
Speaker 7: explanation other than his lies. So I think it really is,

618
00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:25,996
Speaker 7: you know, kind of up to him to sort of

619
00:34:25,996 --> 00:34:27,116
Speaker 7: tell us what's what's real.

620
00:34:29,516 --> 00:34:32,756
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the tricky thing about Santos

621
00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:38,036
Speaker 1: is that he's not making up stories wholesale. He's mixing

622
00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:41,316
Speaker 1: truth and fiction and weaving in bits of his own

623
00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:47,436
Speaker 1: story that are really painful and difficult and creating this

624
00:34:47,436 --> 00:34:51,356
Speaker 1: this thing that is difficult to disentangle and difficult to challenge,

625
00:34:51,996 --> 00:34:53,996
Speaker 1: and it's just confounding.

626
00:34:54,756 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 2: I'd agree with you, And I'm left feeling that even

627
00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:01,516
Speaker 2: though so much of what has been uncovered might feel,

628
00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:06,836
Speaker 2: you know, morally wrong, there hasn't really been any consequences

629
00:35:07,156 --> 00:35:10,716
Speaker 2: in this point in time for George Santos. He's telling lies,

630
00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:16,836
Speaker 2: he's co opting people's stories, he's betraying people close to him,

631
00:35:16,996 --> 00:35:20,276
Speaker 2: but there's no real accountability for any of this.

632
00:35:21,236 --> 00:35:23,956
Speaker 1: It's interesting, like we live. We live in a moment

633
00:35:23,996 --> 00:35:26,996
Speaker 1: where sometimes when someone accuses you of being a liar,

634
00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:32,076
Speaker 1: it's actually an asset with your constituents because it's like, oh,

635
00:35:32,116 --> 00:35:34,156
Speaker 1: it's the New York Times. The Democrats are calling me

636
00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:36,876
Speaker 1: a liar, and in fact, you just double down on

637
00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:39,796
Speaker 1: your position, and then you know it's like, look, my

638
00:35:39,916 --> 00:35:42,596
Speaker 1: enemies are really out to get me. But it seems

639
00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:46,756
Speaker 1: like Sanos is dangerously close to the tipping point at

640
00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:48,876
Speaker 1: which you know, how long is he going to be

641
00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:52,236
Speaker 1: able to do this before he actually has to face

642
00:35:52,236 --> 00:35:52,756
Speaker 1: the music?

643
00:35:53,196 --> 00:35:56,956
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, George Santos flies under the radar for

644
00:35:56,956 --> 00:36:00,396
Speaker 2: a really long time, but as he is in office

645
00:36:00,556 --> 00:36:04,596
Speaker 2: that first year, something is starting to shift. There are

646
00:36:04,676 --> 00:36:08,516
Speaker 2: investigations going on both with the Justice Department and in

647
00:36:08,596 --> 00:36:12,356
Speaker 2: the House, and you get the sense that Santos and

648
00:36:12,396 --> 00:36:15,156
Speaker 2: others are starting to feel like the walls are closing in.

649
00:36:15,796 --> 00:36:19,196
Speaker 2: Maybe these investigations are going to start to catch up

650
00:36:19,196 --> 00:36:24,276
Speaker 2: with him coming up next time on Deep Cover George Santos.

651
00:36:24,956 --> 00:36:28,236
Speaker 10: For me, I'm furious because I spent some of my

652
00:36:28,356 --> 00:36:30,756
Speaker 10: friends that I asked to support George.

653
00:36:30,916 --> 00:36:31,756
Speaker 7: I mean all of them.

654
00:36:32,156 --> 00:36:34,796
Speaker 10: They know me, so they're you know, and they were

655
00:36:34,836 --> 00:36:37,556
Speaker 10: hoodwinked and know that I was hoodwinked, but they were

656
00:36:37,716 --> 00:36:41,596
Speaker 10: upset that they were dragged into this and it was

657
00:36:41,676 --> 00:36:45,156
Speaker 10: my responsibility, you know. I am mad at myself for

658
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Speaker 10: not doing my own due diligence.

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Speaker 1: For more on Mark Gisano's reporting on George Santos, check

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Speaker 1: out his book The Fabulous, The Lying, hustling, grifting, stealing

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Speaker 1: and very American Legend of George Santos. This series is

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Speaker 1: produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Joey fish Ground. Our

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Speaker 1: editor is Karen Chakerji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.

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Speaker 1: Mastering by Jake Gorski. Fact checking by Aica Robbins. Our

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Speaker 1: show art was designed by Sean Carney. Music in this

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Speaker 1: episode is from Luis Garra An Epidemic Sound special thanks

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Speaker 1: to Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler and Greta Cone. I'm Jake

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Speaker 1: calpern