1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law. 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: What does a prosecutor have to prove in order to 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 2: get a Rico conviction? Tell us why this solicitor General 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 2: is sometimes referred to as the tenth Justice. 5 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 3: Interviews with prominent attorneys in Bloomberg Legal Experts. 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: That's Jennifer k for Bloomberg Law. Joining me is former 7 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: federal prosecutor Robert Mins. 8 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: And analysis of important legal issues cases in headlines. 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: It's the toughest hurdle for prosecutors proving Trump's intent. Alito 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 2: took on Congress, saying Congress has no power to regulate 11 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court. 12 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Show. I'm June Grosso. Ahead 14 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: in this hour, Donald Trump is hit with a three 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty four million dollar fine. His first criminal 16 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: trial date is set for next month in Manhattan, but 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: he asked the Supreme Court to put his DC criminal 18 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,959 Speaker 2: trial on hold, and the House impeach is the Homeland 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 2: Security secretary. On the second trine. 20 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 4: It's a ridiculous a worth this a fine of three 21 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty five million dollars for doing a perfect job. 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: It hasn't been a good week for Donald Trump. Not 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: only did a New York judge schedule the date for 24 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: his first criminal trial, but another New York judge handed 25 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: down a verdict finding the former president and his real 26 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: estate company three hundred and sixty four million dollars in 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: penalties plus interest and barring him from running any business 28 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: in the state for three years. Following a two and 29 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: a half month trial, Judge Arthur and Goron found that 30 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: Trump and his companies engaged in a decades long scheme 31 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 2: of inflating asset values on annual financial documents in order 32 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 2: to dupe banks and other lenders into giving him better 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 2: terms on hundreds of millions of dollars in loans. 34 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 4: And it's all happy to do with election interference. There 35 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 4: were no victims because the banks made a lot of money. 36 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 4: They made one hundred million dollars and by the way, 37 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 4: I paid approximately three hundred million taxes. 38 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: It was a victory for New York Attorney General Letitia James, 39 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: who sued Trump after a three year investigation. 40 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 5: Because the scale and the scope of Donald Trump's fraud 41 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 5: is staggering, and so too is his ego and his 42 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 5: belief that the rules did not apply to him. Today, 43 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 5: we are holding Donald Trump accountable. 44 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: But the verdict does keep the Trump organization in business. 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 2: The judge backed away from an earlier ruling that would 46 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: have dissolved the former president's companies. Joining me is Bloomberg 47 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado, who was in the courtroom for 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: the trial. Patty, of course is a lot of money, 49 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: but Trump has testified he has four hundred million dollars 50 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: in cash and he has a net worth of three 51 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: point one billion according to the Bloomberg Billionaire's Index. 52 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 6: Some people have spoken to you have said, what would 53 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 6: hurt Donald Trump the most would be in his pocketbook. 54 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 6: And I think that's one of the reasons of the 55 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 6: Attorney General and after it the case this way, saying 56 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 6: this is illegal profits made by Lyne to banks and insurers, 57 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 6: and they put on a case for three months of 58 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 6: long days, proffering evidence of cooking the bank books and 59 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 6: modifications that made things seem like, oh, we really have 60 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 6: this much money and we think it's worth this. There 61 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 6: were phantom mansions and certain developments, you know, and Briarcliffe 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 6: that he claimed there were thirty five mansions and there 63 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 6: weren't any mansions and they were never built. 64 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: It could have been worse, though, right It could have 65 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: had the corporate death penalty, where a company is forced. 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 6: To dissolve, and the judge had initially ordered that, and 67 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 6: then it was stayed by a Manhattan pellet court in October, 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 6: literally a week after the judge ordered it. People call 69 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 6: that the corporate death penalty because the company would have 70 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 6: to be immediately dissolved. And the Trump organization is like 71 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 6: an umbrella which has hundreds of LLCs under it, So 72 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 6: how it would happen and how it would be dissolved? 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 6: And you know, does it mean that the lights at 74 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 6: Trump Tower would have to be going off or there'd 75 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 6: be a fire sale to sell forty Wall Street. What 76 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 6: the judge seemed to do is backtrack from that and said, 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 6: I'm not going to do this anymore. But we did 78 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 6: hear how there was no certified public accountant working at 79 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 6: the Trump organization until after the lawsuit got filed. So 80 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 6: the judge is now in addition to the outside monitor, 81 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 6: which is Barbara Jones, a farmer federal judge from Manhattan 82 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 6: who's already been the outside monitor that was appointed in 83 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 6: twenty twenty two by the judge. In addition to that, 84 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 6: he added another monitor to work inside the company to 85 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 6: oversee it, and he said because of that, there's no 86 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 6: need now to vacate and liquidate the licenses. He's going 87 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 6: to have that person keep an eye on the company 88 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 6: and could revisit it later in the future. 89 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: What does it mean for Donald Trump? Do you think 90 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: that he can't do business in New York for three 91 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: years and his sons can't do business for two years. 92 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 6: Well, it was going to be for life, So it's 93 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 6: only three years now, and some people have said, well, 94 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 6: it might be running for president, it might be a 95 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 6: little busy, and the kids will do it anyway. But 96 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 6: now it's Don junior, Eric Trump, who was running the 97 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 6: company for his dad in his stead when he was 98 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 6: a president, and Donald Trump. They're all barred for years. 99 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 6: So it's going to be interesting to see what happens 100 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 6: in this company, which is really in essentially almost like 101 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 6: a little family company running this big, giant real estate empire. 102 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: The judge said that Trump's complete lack of contrition and 103 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 2: remorse borders on pathological. That's a stunning statement in a 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: judge's opinion. 105 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 6: Well, I mean, the judge did see Donald Trump up 106 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 6: close and personal, where the former president harangued him and 107 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 6: remonstrated him and made all these statements that sounded like 108 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 6: they came out of a parallel universe, and also asserted 109 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 6: that he had right to do what he wanted to 110 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 6: do because it was his company. And you know, there 111 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 6: are rules that we all follow, and there is Sarbanes Oxley, 112 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 6: and there are restrictions that people don't shade the truth. 113 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 6: And he felt that there was a continuation of the 114 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 6: parties from his previous order, and in fact, had cited 115 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 6: recently that Barbara Jones had found some irregularities even in 116 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 6: the interim time period. During the pendency of this trial. 117 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: Trump is appealing the Egene Carroll defamation verdict of eighty 118 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: three million dollars and he says he's going to appeal 119 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: this and if he decides to put the money in 120 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: escrow in lieu of a bond, it could amount to 121 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 2: as much as one hundred and ten percent of the judgment. 122 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 6: Well, he did boast during the trial that he had 123 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 6: four hundred million dollars lying around. So he has told 124 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 6: the court that some people I've spoken to have suggested 125 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 6: that because he's Trump he may want to get a 126 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 6: bond to cover the eighty three point three million, as 127 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 6: he appeals that. Now, it's a huge chunk of change. 128 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 6: And you know, being Donald Trump, I'm sure he has 129 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 6: got lots of friends and banks still, although it may 130 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 6: be increasingly more difficult for him to find people so 131 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 6: willing to open up their checkbooks and help him. 132 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: Would you say this is the biggest victory that Leticia 133 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: James has had since she's been Attorney general. 134 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a huge victory. And if you think of 135 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 6: the animosity, I mean, having witnessed it in court when 136 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 6: Donald Trump would leave the defense table, he'd waltz past her, 137 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 6: stop and glare at her, and then go outside the 138 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 6: courtroom three feet outside the main entrance of the courtroom 139 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 6: doors and start lambasting her and say extremely critical things 140 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 6: and accuse her of being a con artist and insisting 141 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 6: that she was wasting time. She should be investigating real criminals, 142 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 6: like the migrants that are committing crimes, and that's not 143 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 6: her job. That could be the DA's job, but it's 144 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 6: not the New York Attorney General's job. It's a huge 145 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 6: victory for her. Some people say it's like David Vsus Goliath, 146 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 6: and the state shouldn't go there, and why are they 147 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 6: taking on Trump? And you know, he's argued that she 148 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 6: has animus against him and she's just out to get 149 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 6: him because she's a Democrat and he's a Republican. She's saying, 150 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 6: people who were insurers and the people who didn't get 151 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 6: these loans, it has to be a level playing ground, 152 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 6: and it wasn't. It was Trump cheating, according to her 153 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 6: and her lawyers. 154 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Patty. That's Patricia her Toado Bloomberg Legal reporter. 155 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: Donald Trump had something else to complain about this week. 156 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: After months of his attorney's legal wrangling and trying to 157 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: get delays in his criminal trials, a judge in Manhattan 158 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: put his foot down and scheduled the hush money payments 159 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: trial for March twenty fifth. Trump complained about Judge Van 160 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: Mershan's decision outside the courthouse on Thursday. 161 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 4: I'm going to have to sit here for months on 162 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 4: a trial. I think it's ridiculous. 163 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: It's unfair. 164 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: Joining me is former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner 165 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: maccarter and english Trump's lawyers. They raised every argument I 166 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: think you could imagine, and they said that despite the 167 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: fact that the DC trial has been put on hold, 168 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: They said, we had to focus one hundred percent of 169 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: our attention on preparing for that trial. And the judge 170 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: basically said, too bad. He said, you willingly chose those 171 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: two cases to represent Trump in I told you March 172 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: twenty fifth was a date certain you proceeded at your 173 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: own peril. 174 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: So what ends up happening is that judges have to 175 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: navigate the other cases in terms of scheduling their trials. 176 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,359 Speaker 3: There's no set rules and there is no set procedure 177 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 3: to determine which case goes to trials first. And so 178 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: what the judges here have done is they have tried 179 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 3: to be respectful of the other proceedings and tried to 180 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 3: not get in the way of other trials that were 181 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: set to go first. And that's why we saw the 182 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 3: case of the District of Columbia set to go in 183 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: early March, and the Manhattan DA's case, the case that 184 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 3: is now going to trial at the end of March, 185 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: was going to be del because of the case in 186 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: the District of Columbia involving the January sixth insurrection. But 187 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: now that that case is put off. The case of 188 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 3: Manhattan is going first, and this judge has said from 189 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: the beginning that you have to be ready to go 190 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: in March if we go first. Now, the Trump defense 191 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 3: team has raised a litany of issues as to why 192 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 3: the Manhattan DA's case should be delayed. One of them, 193 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: as you mentioned, is that they have been preparing for 194 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 3: the case in Washington. But the judge Manhattan really had 195 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: no patience with that argument. They also raised a number 196 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 3: of other arguments, saying that would interfere with the campaign season. 197 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 3: That was something that was not successful. The Trump defense 198 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: team also tried to delay the trial by trying it 199 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: to the recent verdict in the Egene Carrol defamation case. 200 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: There was a large verdict, a lots of publicity, and 201 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 3: the Trump lawyers are saying that that will taint the 202 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 3: jury pool. Again, the judge thought that could be dealt 203 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 3: with during jury selection. Frankly, you're never going to find 204 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: a jury in Manhattan that doesn't have strong opinions about 205 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 3: former President Trump. 206 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: And Bob This is the case that's going first. This 207 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: is also the case that most legal analysts and others 208 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: consider the weakest of the criminal cases against Donald Trump. 209 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: One of the issues that has been dogging this case 210 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 3: from the outset was the way in which the Manhattan 211 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: DA charged it. This is basically a charge for falsifying 212 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 3: business records, and in this case, what it means is 213 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 3: that back in October twenty sixteen, the allegation is that 214 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 3: former President Trump, through Michael Cone, his former attorney, was 215 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 3: paying off Stormy Daniels, a porn stars who alleged that 216 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: she had an affair with former President Trump. So there 217 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 3: was a payment made to Stormy Daniels through Michael Cone 218 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: that was later concealed as a legal payment. Ultimately, that created, 219 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 3: according to the Manhattan DA, a false business record. Now, 220 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: typically business record violations in New York State are misdemeanors, 221 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: which means they're punishable only by up to a year 222 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 3: in prison, and they're relatively minor charges. 223 00:11:58,559 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: But what the. 224 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: DA did here is he turned those into felonies, which 225 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: you can do if the business records violation is somehow 226 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: tied to another crime or, in this case, the concealment 227 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: of another crime. Now, the real issue here is that 228 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 3: the concealment of the other crime was a federal campaign 229 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: law violation, and that theory tying the business records violation 230 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 3: to a federal rather than a state law violation has 231 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: never been tested in the appeals court. So although that 232 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 3: issue was argued before the trial judge Manhattan, and the 233 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 3: judge rejected it, I think we can see that issue 234 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 3: raised again on appeal. And if there's going to be 235 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: a real problem with this case, it's not likely to 236 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 3: be in the evidence that's presented a trial. It's likely 237 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 3: to be in this legal theory. 238 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 2: First comes the trial though. On March twenty fifth, Thanks 239 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: so much, Bob. That's Robert Manson, McCarter and English coming up. 240 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: Trump wants the Supreme Court to put his DC criminal 241 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: trial on hold. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 242 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 4: Autoimmunity very simple. If a president of the United States 243 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 4: does not have immunity, he'll be totally ineffective because he 244 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 4: won't be able to do anything, because it will mean 245 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: he'll be prosecuted, strongly prosecuted, perhaps as soon as he 246 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 4: leaves office by the opposing party. 247 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: Donald Trump has been arguing in and out of court 248 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: that he has absolute presidential immunity from criminal charges that 249 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: he plotted to overturn the twenty twenty election. The DC's 250 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: Circuit Court of Appeals categorically rejected that argument in a 251 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: unanimous opinion, but Trump is now asking the Supreme Court 252 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: to intervene. On Monday, Trump asked the justices to put 253 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: that DC opinion on hold while he appeals it, which 254 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 2: will continue to delay his federal trial for election interference. 255 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: My guest is Dave Ahrenberg, Palm Beach County State Attorney. Dave, 256 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: what was your general impression of Trump's application to the 257 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: Supreme Court for a stay. 258 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: I thought the application for a stay was pretty weak. 259 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: For example, he cited as a reason for this Supreme 260 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: Court to grant a stay that his own supporter's First 261 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: Amendment rights would be taken away, and that doesn't make 262 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: any sense. First off, Trump is the defendant, not his supporters. 263 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: And although he likes to nationalize everything, where he makes 264 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: any attack on him an attack on the country. It 265 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: may play in the court of public opinion in the 266 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: far right wing media, but not in a court of law. 267 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: So you cannot go to the Supreme Court and say 268 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: I have a ruppable harm. You must give me a stay, 269 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: because if you don't give me a stay, you're going 270 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: to violate my supporter's First Amendments rights to choose who 271 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: they want as president. No, that's ridiculous. Nothing stops your 272 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: supporters from voting for you. You can even be elected from 273 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: a jail cell. So I think the Supreme Court is 274 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: going to reject this request for a stay. You need 275 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: five justices to go along with it, and I don't 276 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: think he's going to get that. And if I'm right, 277 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: that means this case will be sent back to the 278 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: DC Court and it'll be game on for Judge Chuckin 279 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: and Jacksmith, and that trial for a lection, and if 280 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: you're parents will be heard before the election. 281 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the arguments that Trump made 282 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: in his application at the Circuit Court. He had argued 283 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: that former presidents are absolutely immune from prosecution. And we've 284 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: all heard by now Judge Florence Penn's hypothetical about a 285 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: president ordering Seal Team six to assassinate a rival. Here's 286 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: Judge Penn questioning Trump's attorney John Sower. 287 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 7: I asked you a yes, yes or no question. 288 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 5: Could a president who ordered Seal Team six to assassinate 289 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 5: a political rival who was not impeached, can he be 290 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 5: subject to criminal prosecution. 291 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 7: If he were impeached and convicted. 292 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: First, your answer is is that And he didn't seem 293 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: to retreat from that argument in the Supreme Court filing. 294 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, they tried a nuance it a little bit, but 295 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: that is a sure loser. I mean, presidents don't have 296 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: absolute immunity. It's ludicrous to think that you could assassinate 297 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: your political rival. And unless you are impeached by the 298 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: House and convicted by the Senate, then you get away 299 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: scott free. That you can't be charged. You get a 300 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: get out of jail free card. Then just change the 301 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: title of president to king, because that's what we would have. 302 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: But there's a reason why we left the crown many 303 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: years ago, because we don't have a king. We have 304 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: a rule of law and applies to everyone. And the 305 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: d C. Circuit Quarter Appeals understood that they ruled unanimously 306 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: against Trump, and the Supreme Course is not going to 307 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: accept that argument either. Now, could they take the case 308 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: grant search, which only requires four justices not five, and 309 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: review the matter and issue a ruling to clarify the 310 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: law of immunity in certain cases. Sure, I could see 311 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: that happening, but I don't see them granting the stay here, 312 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: which would make it a lot harder to try Trump 313 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: before the election. So that's my best guess now. I think, 314 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: on the other hand, when it comes to the other 315 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: case of whether Trump can make the ballot and call 316 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: out in other states, I think they're going to rule 317 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly for Trump. So I think this is a little 318 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: bit of a give and take. They're going to rule 319 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: for Trump that he can stay on the ballot. But again, 320 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: Trump here, that's my prediction. 321 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: His counsel said. The Special Council seeks urgently to force 322 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 2: President Trump into a month's long criminal trial at the 323 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: height of campaign season, effectively sidelining him and preventing him 324 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: from campaigning against the current president. Trump's attorney's made that 325 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: same argument to the judge sitting in the New York 326 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: hush money case. So is his new argument that he 327 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: shouldn't face any trial before the election? Is he still 328 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: winging for the fences. 329 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, he wants you to believe he's out there on 330 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: a bus tour around the country, going from town to town, 331 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: shaking hands, kissing babies. No, he's usually this campaigning from 332 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: mar Lago on his true social media site. And so 333 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: this doesn't stop him from campaigning. He can be in 334 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: a trial and still do his campaigning and that won't 335 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: have an effect. We can also say that going through 336 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: a trial and having a verdict actually helps the public 337 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: because most of the public in polls show that they 338 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: want to know the result of this case because it 339 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: will help them give them more information on whom to 340 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: vote for. If he found guilty, that is important to voters. 341 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: If he's acquitted, that will be to voters. But if 342 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: this is stalled till pass the election, the voters won't 343 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: get the information they need to make a fully informed 344 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: decision on perhaps the most consequential election of our lifetimes. 345 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: So I think that argument doesn't hold water. Also, he's 346 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: the one who's making this political. Jack Smith and Merrick 347 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: Garland don't want to bring up politics in this. They 348 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: want to stay above the political phrase. So Jack Smith 349 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: has not specifically mentioned that we need to get going 350 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: sooner than later because there's an election coming up. He 351 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: doesn't want to mention the E word, but Trump is 352 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: because when it comes to election interference, he is trying 353 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,239 Speaker 1: to use that to delay his case. He's the one 354 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: who's using the election to try to get away with 355 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: this because he doesn't have a better defense than delayed. Delay, delay. 356 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: And that's one thing I thought that rang true in 357 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 2: Trump's application that Jack Smith has not specifically said why 358 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: it's so important that this case go forward so quickly. 359 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: And in the Special Council's papers urging the Supreme Court 360 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: to reject Trump's request, he writes that delay and the 361 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: resolution of these charges threatens to frustrate the public interest 362 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: in a speedy and fair verdict, a compelling interest in 363 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 2: every criminal case, and Oneman has unique national importance here. 364 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Jack Smith doesn't want to break the code. 365 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: He and Merrick Garland are so nervous about being seen 366 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: as political as that they don't want to mention the 367 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: E word. No, no, no, don't mention it. Just pretend 368 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: that it doesn't exist. But you can't. This is why 369 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court refused to intervene originally. Remember Jack Smith 370 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: went to the Supreme Court originally on this matter to say, 371 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: please intervene. You can bigfoot the DC Circuit Court appeals. 372 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: We don't have to go through those middlemen. Why don't 373 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: you just do it now? But the reason why the 374 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: Supreme Court said no is because Jack Smith never told 375 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: them why this is such an emergency, and the real 376 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: emergency is because there's an election. But Jack Smith doesn't 377 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: want to acknowledge there's an election coming up. So the 378 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: Supreme Court said that then there's no emergency. Unless you 379 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: want to say the magic words, we're not going to 380 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: give you the relief. So it's interesting now now Jacksmith 381 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: is telling the Supreme Court don't get involved. So maybe 382 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: the best argument Trumpe is that Jack Smith went to 383 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: you urging you to get involved just a short time ago. 384 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: Now he doesn't want you to get involved, So that's 385 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: a contradiction. 386 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 387 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: Smith had argued that it was of imperative public importance 388 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: that the Supreme Court be the one to resolve Trump's 389 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: immunity claims. I don't know if the justices are going 390 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 2: to hold that against him and making this decision. What 391 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: do you think is the best argument for Smith here? 392 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: Well, the way to do it is just to say 393 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: the DC certain Court of Appeals opinion, which took a 394 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: lot longer than people's thought, he's very thorough, very strong. 395 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: Just defer to that. You don't need to go through this, 396 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: just defer to what they just did. You don't need 397 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: to go any further. You don't need to recreate the wheel, 398 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: and that may work. The Supreme Court is a busy institution, 399 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: then maybe they don't want to step into this anymore 400 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: than they have to, and they can just deny sir, 401 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: deny the state, and let things play out. 402 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: Trump also asks for a step that could produce additional delay. 403 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: He requests that the Justice's grand A stay and whole 404 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 2: any further action until the DC Circuit Court decides whether 405 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: to reconsider the case on bank, meaning in front of 406 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: the court's full eleven judge bench. But he would have 407 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 2: to petition the DC Circuit Court for an on bank hearing, 408 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: and that's rare and they probably wouldn't grant it in 409 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: light of the comprehensive opinion by the three judge panel. 410 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: This is an example of Trump wanting to have it 411 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: both ways. He wants to have both pie and ice 412 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: cream p dessert. And maybe that's at the buffet of 413 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: mal A Lago, But in real life, what he's trying 414 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: to do is to say that I want to go 415 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: back to the d C Circuit Court of Appeals. I 416 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: want them to hear this case un banc, which means 417 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: the full Court, not just a three judge panel. And 418 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: at the same time, I want a stay from the 419 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court, now the DC Circuit Court Appeal pull Trump, 420 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: you get either or you can either go back to 421 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: US and ask for the en banc hearing. But if 422 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: you do that there's no stay, then Judge Hutkinson start 423 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: moving on her case. Or you can go straight to 424 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court and then you can see stay there. 425 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: Trump is saying, now I want both. I want to 426 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: go back to the Full Court and I want to stay. 427 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: And you know why, June. He wants to go back 428 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: to the DC Circuit Court Appeals when he knows that court, 429 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: which has made up mostly of democratic appointed judges, will 430 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: never rule for him. But the reason why he wants 431 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: to go back is because it further is his strategy 432 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: of delay. He wants every last hearing he can have, 433 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: because every day that goes by without a trial is 434 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: a victory for Donald Trump. 435 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: Let's say there are five justices who want a grant 436 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: to stay. How long do you think it would take 437 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 2: from start to finish. I mean they'll probably be oral arguments. 438 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, if there is a stay, then it makes a 439 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: lot harder to try this case before the election. I 440 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: don't think it's impossible. I think that there's no stay. 441 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: I think that then this will be tried by the 442 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: end of spring. At least the start of the trial 443 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: will happen by the end of spring. If there is 444 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: a stay, then they'll be lucky to try this in 445 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: the summertime and then it gets close to the election. 446 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: So if the Supreme Court does give the stay in 447 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: grant cert then we just don't know how long it 448 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: will take. Sprime Court knows this is a matter of 449 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: great public importance and it requires urgency. So I don't 450 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: think they'll go that far, but they may, but they 451 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: still need five votes. And it's not just that they're 452 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: going to agree that there's a repable harm. They'd have 453 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: to say the five justices to grant the state that 454 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: there's a likelihood of success on the merits. Really, you 455 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: think Trump's going to win on his claim of absolute 456 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: immunity that five justices a majority would say, yeah, we 457 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: think he's got a good case. So that's why I 458 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: don't think that he wins on the stay. I don't 459 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: think there's a repable harm, and I definitely don't think 460 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: there's a likelihood of success on the merit. 461 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: So what about if four justices say, let's take this 462 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 2: case for review. How would that work? 463 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Now? I think that could happen all types of four justices, 464 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: not a majority, but four justices to grant cert, which 465 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: is granting certiori, which means we're going to take up 466 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: the case. But that doesn't mean there's a stay. A 467 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: stay requires five justices. So they could take up the 468 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: case and say we're going to review it, you know, 469 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: to this guide the matter of absolute immunity, and we 470 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: want to write an opinion about it. But then if 471 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: there's no stay, then Judge Huckins can start moving the 472 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: ball forward. And then assuming the court rules on this 473 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: issue in a timely fashion and rejects Trump's claim maaps 474 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: of immunity, then the trial can go forward. But as 475 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: long as there's no state, then the preliminaries can start 476 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: going ahead, and then they can set a trial date 477 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: and then his game on. So I think the bigger 478 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: question for me is not whether they grant cert it's 479 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: whether they grant the state. Trump would rather have the 480 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: stay than the cert because he's more concerned about the 481 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: delay than the ultimate opinion and I have to. 482 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 2: Say his legal team has been very good at creating 483 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 2: delay in all his cases. Thanks so much for coming 484 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: on the show, Dave. That's Palm Beach County State Attorney 485 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: Dave Ahrenberg. The Supreme Court's decision could come at any time, 486 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: and we're also waiting for a decision from the Supreme 487 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: Court on whether states can bar Trump from this year's 488 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: presidential ballot because of his role in the January sixth insurrection. 489 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: Coming up next on The Bloomberg Lawn Show. In its 490 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: second try, the House impeached Homeland Securities Secretary Alejandro Majorcis 491 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: by a vote of two from fourteen to two thirteen. 492 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. 493 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 5: On this vote the yaser two fourteen and the naser 494 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 5: two thirteen. The resolution is adopted. 495 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 2: House Republicans finally got that one vote margin necessary to 496 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: impeach Homeland Security Secretary Alejandra Majorcis on Tuesday. It was 497 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: a redo of their failed attempt last week. Majorcus, the 498 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: first Latino and immigrant to head the department, is only 499 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: the second cabinet member in US history to be impeached. 500 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: The last time was one hundred and fifty years ago 501 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: majorcus was impeached over his handling of the border. 502 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 5: The allegations are baseless and I'm focused on the work. 503 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 2: Despite the fact that there is virtually no chance the 504 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 2: Senate will have the necessary two thirds majority to convict Majorcis, 505 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: the House went forward with the impeachment, succeeding only with 506 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: the vote of Republican Majority Leader Steve Scalise, who returned 507 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: to Washington after being away for cancer tree. 508 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 5: And if they ignore this, then there will be accountability 509 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 5: and consequences to that action. 510 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: So it's on the Senate. 511 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: Several leading conservative scholars and former Homeland Security secretaries from 512 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: both Republican and Democratic administrations have dismissed the Majorcis impeachment 513 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: as unwarranted or a waste of time, as has House 514 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 2: Minority Leader Hakim Jeffries. 515 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 7: This is extraordinary. This is the height of cynicism. Once again, 516 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 7: they are embracing chaos and walking away from common sense. 517 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: Joining me is an expert in impeachment law, Frank Bowman, 518 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: a professor at the University of Missouri Law School. He 519 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 2: testified before the House Homeland Security Committee on Impeachment in January. 520 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: They voted to impeach him on accounts of willful and 521 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 2: systemic refusal to comply with the law and breach of 522 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: public trust relating to his handling of immigration and security 523 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: at the border. Even if proved, does that rise to 524 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. 525 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 7: Well, with respect to the first claim that he actually 526 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 7: will fully violated the law on a matter that was 527 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 7: real seriousness, I mean, I suppose if it were true, 528 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 7: we could have a conversation. But it's not true. It's 529 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 7: not even close to true. The best they can say 530 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 7: is that he used the discretion conferred on him by 531 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 7: law to interpret and apply the series of immission laws, 532 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 7: which are both contradictory and confusing, and he did that 533 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 7: in conformity with the directives as the president. There simply 534 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 7: is no indication at all that he's violating the law. 535 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 7: I mean, the primary thing that they claim he's violating 536 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 7: the law on is the claim that the law requires 537 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 7: that people who are in the country illegally must be 538 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 7: detained and that they cannot be par Well, it's just 539 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 7: not true. I mean, the law itself has plenty of 540 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 7: parole provisions, and in fact, on that particular point, the 541 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 7: United States Supreme Court has actually held any one of 542 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 7: the series of lawsuits brought against the Department and Secretary 543 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 7: of America's by some state for public ustrians general, the 544 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 7: Supreme Court's actually held that detention is not mandatory. So 545 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 7: the thing that they are claiming he's violating the law 546 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 7: on the Supreme Court has basically said, no, that's not true. 547 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 7: It's really quite remarkable. So we don't even need to 548 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 7: get to the question of whether or not, in some 549 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 7: hypothetical case, a sufficiently serious and plain violation of law 550 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 7: would in itself be impeachable. The answer, I suppose, in theory, 551 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 7: in the right case might be yes. But he hasn't 552 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 7: violated the law. What they've got is a series of 553 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 7: lawsuits against him in which, you know, in the lower 554 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 7: courts they've won some and they've lost them, and the 555 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 7: only two that made it up to the Supreme Court, 556 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 7: Republicans have lost. They don't have a final judgment against 557 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 7: him suggesting that he's violated the law. It's all it's 558 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 7: all made up. 559 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: What about this breach of public trust that's pretty broad Well, 560 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: that is. 561 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 7: A piece there out of my blog. I refer to 562 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 7: that count as a Ragpicker's bizarre because it's just got 563 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 7: a bunch of stuff in it. For example, they claim 564 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 7: he made false statements to the committee. No he didn't. 565 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 7: The claimed false statements that they are alleging he made 566 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 7: are cases in which they're basically disagreeing with his use 567 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 7: of adjectives and adverbs. In other words, they claim that 568 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 7: he falsely claimed that apprehended aliens of no legal basis 569 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 7: from in the United States were being quickly removed. The 570 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 7: only thing to disagree with that is the word quickly. 571 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 7: They're impeaching him because they don't like his use of 572 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 7: the adjective quickly to modify removed. In other cases, he 573 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 7: described the border as being secure or no less secure 574 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 7: than it was previously. They claim that's a false statement. 575 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 7: At most, it's an opinion about the efficiency of his 576 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 7: administration and his agency. And we know, first of all, 577 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 7: from the very time of the framing that matters of 578 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 7: opinion are not matters appropriate for impeachment. But in any case, 579 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 7: if it were an impeachable offense for someone to go 580 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 7: into Congress and provide a generous and even optimistic assessment 581 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 7: of the performance of our own agency, or for example, 582 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 7: a congressman to provide a generous spin on some matter 583 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 7: of public policy, everybody would be impeachable. There is not 584 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 7: a single instance of an actual false statement if they 585 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 7: allege in this article. So that's one thing they claim. 586 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 7: In that second article, they claimed that there was an 587 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 7: obstruction of congressional oversight. Well, for Republicans who defended Donald 588 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 7: Trump to claim that anybody else to be impeachable for 589 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 7: obstruction of congressional oversight would make a dog laugh. And 590 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 7: it's simply not true that my arc has substructed congressional oversight. 591 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 7: He has testified somebody twenty seven times before various congressional committees. 592 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 7: Multiple times. Before this committee, he'd made ninety witnesses available 593 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 7: to Congress. And the question about the operations, the department 594 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 7: provided tens of thousands of pages of documents, and you know, 595 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 7: at the very end, when the committee wanted to examine 596 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 7: him him to testified one more time. He responded by saying, well, 597 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 7: particular day you've asked me to come, I'm actually meeting 598 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 7: with Mexican officials to talk about border issues. Can we 599 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 7: reschedule it? And they refused, And when I had an 600 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 7: impeachedent for obstruction, I mean, it's a joke. There's absolutely 601 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 7: nothing in either of these articles. And I think that 602 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 7: fact that that is so is indicated by the fact 603 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 7: that they could not find a single legal expert of 604 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 7: any kind, not a legal historian either, not a constitutional scholar, 605 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 7: not a judge, not a lawyer, Not a single person 606 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 7: could they find to come down to Congress and say, yes, 607 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 7: does a constitutional matter what you're alleging is impeachable? Because not. 608 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: There Also, just hours before the vote, the US Border 609 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: Patrol released new data showing that the number of migrants 610 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: illegally crossing the southern border with Mexico plummeted by fifty 611 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: percent in January compared with December. Who knows why, But 612 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: does that mitigate against them impeaching him? 613 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 7: Well, performance numbers shouldn't be a matter of impeachability, right, 614 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 7: I Mean, that's the key here. Impeachment is a constitutional 615 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 7: mechanism that is reserved for the most serious kinds of offenses. 616 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 7: That's why if you can only gain peach for treason, 617 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 7: biber or other high crimes and misdemeanors, is a grave 618 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 7: constitutional tool for the most serious of matters. It is 619 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 7: not something that you trot out simply because you disagree 620 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 7: with the administration policy or you find the performance of 621 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 7: a particular cabint officer to be below your standards. I mean, 622 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 7: there's a reason that my orchis is only the second 623 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 7: CABT officer ever to be impeached. It's because for two 624 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 7: hundred and thirty five years, everybody understood that's the case 625 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 7: that you don't impeach people for policy differences. If you did, 626 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 7: why you'd be impeaching people left, right and sideways. The 627 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 7: only cabinet officer who's ever been impeached was a guy 628 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 7: who flagrantly committed bribery. The Republicans are stepping into dangerous 629 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 7: new ground here where they're simply saying, well, anytime we 630 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 7: don't like something the administration is doing, but we can 631 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 7: simply impeach the person who happens to be the head 632 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 7: of the department who's doing most of it. So I 633 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 7: don't think that it matters at all what the particular 634 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 7: numbers are for impeachment purposes. However, that does take us 635 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 7: into the larger picture here, which is, even if your 636 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 7: theory is I can impeach an officer because I'm really 637 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 7: really upset about the conduct of a particular policy area 638 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 7: by the administration. The real thing you should be doing, 639 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 7: actually is you should be passing legislation to address the 640 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 7: problem that you're so upset about. But of course, as 641 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 7: we know, within the last ten days or so, a 642 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 7: bipartisan group of Senators negotiated a real piece of legislation 643 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 7: that would have made very significant changes to immigration enforcement 644 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 7: in this country, and then the very same people who 645 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 7: want to impeach me niorca is basically squashed it at 646 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 7: the behest of the Donald Trump because they don't want 647 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 7: to solve the problem, they want to run on it. 648 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 7: And that's all this is. 649 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: The House has appointed eleven Republicans to serve as impeachment managers. 650 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: So then this goes over to the Senate. Does the 651 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: Senate have to hold a trial? 652 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 7: An interesting question constitutionally, It's one we talked about in 653 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 7: the first Trump case. I don't know the answer. Nobody 654 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 7: really knows the answer. But certainly it appears that the 655 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 7: Senate has concluded that the majority leader has concluded that 656 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 7: something has to happen, that the Senate has to address it. 657 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 7: Because I gather that they're going to commence something on 658 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 7: the twenty six. 659 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: Well, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said the appointed House Republican 660 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 2: impeachment managers will present the articles to the Senate when 661 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: Senators returned to Washington at the end of the month, 662 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: and then the Senate President pro Tem Patty Murray will 663 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: preside over a trial. But I'm wondering if there is 664 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 2: any way around. 665 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 7: That there is a mechanism by which one could avoid 666 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 7: holding this full trial. Commonly for the last several decades, 667 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 7: at least for lesser officers, people other than presidents, they've 668 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 7: created a trial committee that will simply hold hearings, presenter 669 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 7: report to the full Senate in the full Senate votes. 670 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 7: I don't even think that will happen here. My best 671 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 7: guess is that some sort of trial will be convened, 672 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 7: and that the presiding officer will probably entertain a motion 673 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 7: to dismiss the case upfront without the president of evidence, 674 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 7: and that will be taken. On my guess, the whole 675 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 7: thing will be dismissed without any evidence being presented. I 676 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 7: don't know that, no inside information on that point, but 677 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 7: something like that, you may remember, actually was attempted in 678 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 7: the second Trump case, where there's an emotion to dismiss 679 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 7: based on the alleged lack of jurisdiction, and that motion 680 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 7: failed and they went forward with something the nature of trial. 681 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 7: I think in this case the emotion will pass very 682 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 7: probably and that will be the end of it. 683 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 4: Now. 684 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: Majorcis is not the only Biden administration official that House 685 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 2: Republicans want to impeach. They're of course looking into impeaching 686 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 2: President Biden. They file legislation to impeach a list including 687 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 2: Vice President Kamala Harris, Attorney General Merrick Garland, FBI Director 688 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 2: Christopher Ray, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin. What is wrong 689 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: with this picture? 690 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 7: I mean one has to avoid overreacting a little bit 691 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 7: in the sense that individual outlying members of the House 692 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 7: that both parties have over time sometimes introduced resolutions to 693 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 7: try to impeach this person or that person because they 694 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 7: were ticked off. What's different here, obviously, is that what 695 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 7: we have here is not simply the actions of one 696 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 7: or two eccentrics. What we have here is a concerted 697 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 7: effort by House Republicans to impeach people from the President 698 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 7: on down without any grounds. And that is very very bad. 699 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 7: It terribly devalues the institution of impeachment itself, which is 700 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 7: supposed to be reserved for the most serious instances of 701 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 7: very great official misconduct. If you are taking seriously completely 702 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 7: non serious allegations on a regular basis, then when something 703 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 7: really serious comes along, it's too easy to dismiss it. 704 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: Well, we'll see how the Senate handles this case next month. 705 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for the conversation, Frank. That's Professor Frank 706 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: Bowman of the University of Missouri Law School. And In 707 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: news related to the effort in the House to impeach 708 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 2: President Joe Biden, Special Counsel David Wise, who is investigating 709 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 2: Hunter Biden, has charged an FBI informant with fabricatorating a 710 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: multimillion dollar bribery scheme involving Biden, his son Hunter, and 711 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 2: Ukrainian energy company Barisma, a claim that's central to the 712 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 2: Republican impeachment inquiry. The Special Council charged Alexander Smirnov with 713 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 2: providing the FBI false derogatory information, including claims that Barisma 714 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: executives paid Hunter and Joe Biden five million dollars each. 715 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 2: The Special Council said that Smirnov's stories fell apart and 716 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 2: that he quote transformed his routine and unextraordinary business contacts 717 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 2: with Barisma into bribery allegations against Biden, who was then 718 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 2: the presumptive presidential nominee of the Democratic Party. House Republicans 719 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 2: say they're going forward with the impeachment inquiry. This is 720 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Law. On Bloomberg Radio. I'm June Grosso. Stay with US. 721 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: Today's top stories and global business headlines are coming up 722 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: right now.