WEBVTT - Searching For a Cure to PTSD at Burning Man 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:05.120 America's public enemy Number one in the United States is 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:09.399 drug abuse. In order to fight and defeat this enemy, 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.720 it is necessary to wage a new all out of mention. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.479 What if the cure for a lifetime of PTSD is 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.840 really just a party drug from the nineteen eighties. Welcome 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.920 to Prognosis, a podcast about health, medical technology, and the 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.600 mind blowing innovation now under way in some of the 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:35.040 least expected places. I'm your host, Michelle fay Cortes. Today 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.800 we're taking a look at where illegal drugs need cutting 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:43.440 edge therapy. Psychedelic drugs weren't always taboo. In the fifties 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.479 and sixties. The medical world was actually really excited about them. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.760 Researchers studied LSD in psilocybin or magic mushrooms as a 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.080 way to treat conditions like depression and even addiction. Before 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.640 nineteen sixty five, more than a thousand studies involving psychedelics 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.640 were published. Many people thought they were breakthroughs, providing the 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.240 first hope for treating mental health conditions when little else worked. 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.200 But then psychedelics became the drug of choice for the 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:15.400 counterculture and the government cracked down. In Congress passed the 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:19.600 Controlled Substances Act, criminalizing the use of psychedelic drugs and 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.559 all that scientific research into their therapeutic potential. It ground 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.399 to a halt. In recent years, the rules are relaxed 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.240 a little. Both the Food and Drug Administration and the 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:35.119 Drug Enforcement Agency are again allowing researchers to conduct studies 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.000 on psychedelic drugs therapies. Some have been really promising, but 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:44.000 they don't come cheap. So how do you bank roll 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.840 a psychedelics revolution? A revolution that brings to mind Stoner's 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.640 in taid more than patients and hospital gowns. One man 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:56.400 thinks he knows here are Bloomberg's Christin Brown and Sarah 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:06.280 McBride to take you on a trip. A few weeks ago, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.400 Sarah and I were cruising across the Nevada Desert in 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:20.720 a rented van on our way to Burning Man. We 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.560 weren't headed there on vacation. We were giving a ride 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.640 to Rick Doblin. He's the CEO of a nonprofit called 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:33.240 the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Most people just call 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.560 it MAPS. And Burning Man, of course, is the annual 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.400 party of the Nevada Desert. Thousands of people show up 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.560 at this dust Bowl each year to parade around in 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.920 crazy costumes, dance, enjoy the art, and yes, do drugs. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.959 But the party scene wasn't the only thing bringing Rick 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.799 to Burning Man. Rick is a man on a mission 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:59.000 to legalize some of those drugs as medicines. But so 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.000 your goal is of intually not just medical decision of 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:06.280 qui well, this legalization of psychedelics in general and mainstreaming 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.280 of the opportunity for people they have healing experiences, spiritual 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:15.440 experiences right under medical or not necessarily under medical supervision, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.840 under religious supervision, but also a fundamental human right to 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.880 explore your own consciousness. Rick is a champion for the 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:27.280 healing powers of drugs broadly known as psychedelics that includes LSD, mushrooms, 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.919 and depending on who you talk to, m D m 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:34.079 A also known as ecstasy. Like Michelle mentioned, those drugs 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.320 are all illegal. Rick is hoping that with persuasive enough 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:41.880 scientific research that will change. But nothing will change unless 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.520 studies show those drugs hold healing power, and paying for 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:50.040 those studies takes serious bank. That is what brings Rick 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:56.960 to Burning Man. People often describe Rick as this sort 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.840 of cheerleader for psychedelics. He was in full smooth mode 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.560 even before we arrived at the Burning Man gates. Everyone 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.600 knows him. On the way, he stopped at a rest 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.200 stop and bumped into lots of people who wanted to 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:27.360 catch up. He that was Floora Bellini, a spiritual adviser 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.480 to entrepreneurs. When we run into her, she is a 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.520 hot tip for Rick. She wants to introduce him to 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.479 some people who might have money for maps. She throws 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.839 out names like Guy la Liberte, who co founded Cirque 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:44.440 to Slay, and Garrett camp, Uber's co founder. She and 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.080 Rick agreed to try to reconnect when they got to 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.960 the Playa. That's what the regulars like to call Burning Man. 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.400 But first we have to get in and ask people 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.760 who have never been burning roll around dirt. Oh let's 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.960 not tell them we've never been them because I don't 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.840 and they asked us. We'll just let you talk. Yeah, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.200 I see someone rolling around in the dirt right now? Yeah? 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.279 Why are they? Why is it like a hazing thing? Yeah, 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:17.400 I'm not, Yes, I have refused. A few minutes later, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:22.080 I had changed my tune burns. Actually, this is my 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:23.640 first Are you going to make me roll around in 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:34.000 the dirt? Hey? Okay, I'll get off all right. I 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.480 was looking it on the way now wearing my weights. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.120 That was me coming to grips with my new burning 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.479 man milia. That's something Rick is pretty good at. He 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.400 just adapts to whatever environment he's in, and it makes 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:56.640 him a great fundraiser, perfect because mainstreaming psychedelics is massively pricey. 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.600 Rick's biggest challenge right now is getting the green light 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.000 from the Food and Drug Administration. He's just kicked off 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.920 the final stage of that approval process, what's known as 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.320 Phase three clinical trials. That means hundreds of people are 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.599 testing a drug under close medical supervision. Rick chose's focus 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.279 carefully people with post traumatic stress disorder like veterans, so 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.120 a hundred people with PTSD will get treated with either 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.160 m d m A or placebo, and doctors will monitor 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:28.480 their progress closely. Those Phase three tests alone costs twenty 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.919 six million dollars, and a nonprofit bringing a drug to 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:34.600 market is rare. The only other one was Are You 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.640 four eight six, an abortion drug approved in two thousand. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.240 It was also controversial. That brings us back to why 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.720 Rick is something of a folk hero in certain circles, 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.560 especially among people who hope psychedelics will one day win 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.640 wide acceptance, and not just for PTSD treatment. And if 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.479 you need money for something controversial, we're better to look 0:06:54.520 --> 0:07:02.159 for it than a burning Man. Burning Man has become 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.479 a beacon for rich technorati. After all, tickets alone cost 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.680 as much as dollars. Rick was already a long time 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:15.080 Burner when he saw the potential wealthy tech people were coming. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.080 More and more people were coming from tech from the 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.600 Bay Area. UM, it was a great opportunity to hang 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.080 out and talk to people. So Rick doesn't hit people 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.720 up for cash right at Burning Man. He gets to 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.120 know them and when it's all over, then he asks 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.480 them to donate to MAPS, his nonprofit. Many of his 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.240 big donors are people he's met at Burning Man, or 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.600 they're connected to people he's met there. The festival has 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.239 become such an important place to cultivate donors. He listed 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.640 in the MAPS annual report. His entire board of directors 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.560 goes to Burning Man. That's six out of six. One 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.080 guy on his board, David Brauner, runs the soap company 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.720 Dr Brauner's. David also hosts a camp at Burning Man 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.240 and sets aside an air conditioned crash pad there for 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.480 Rick not that Rick sleeps much a burning Man. He's 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:10.200 much too busy schmoozing. Rick has some pretty surprising donors. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.280 Richard Rockefeller, a great grandson of the famous oil baron, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:18.360 gave him money. Joby Pritzker, from the Chicago family behind 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:23.320 Hyatt Hotels, sits on his board. Rebecca Mercer, the Trump megabacker, 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.000 gave Maps a million dollars earlier this year. And a 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.640 chunk of Rick's cash even comes from an air to 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.600 the Precious Moments figurines, you know, those little porcelain Chaska's. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.240 But more and more he wants to tap into the 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.040 set of young millionaires and billionaires that Silicon Valley is minting. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.400 Sometimes that calls for discretion. I asked him if there 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.040 was anyone in particular on his ongoing wish list, anyone 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.400 he's trying to bring on board to donate to Maps. 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.120 Are there some that you have your eye on that 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.840 you think you just cultivate them a little bit more, 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:05.320 perhaps they'll support maps finance chime. Yeah, and would we 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:12.760 know some of their names? But I don't. I don't 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.640 think visiting them will. Hell. Burning Man doesn't deliver just 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.360 on the money front. Rick gets to know a lot 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.320 of people on the research side too. Tons of scientists 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.560 had to burning Man. One afternoon, I went to a 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.439 talk on the neuroscience of psychedelics. It was given by 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.080 a researcher at the University of California, Berkeley, and it 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.079 was packed. Rick taps into that burning Man community to 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.360 help a lot of movers and shakers in the field 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.360 connect with each other. For example, one night, we were 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.360 riding across the playa on a two story tall brass 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.800 dragon art car. That's when Rick finally got the chance 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.120 to introduce two key players in the movement, the Dutch 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.080 military's head psychiatrist and a doctor from Arizona. Oh God, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.400 there is right there yet, Eric, I was great. I 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:07.120 felt that I need to say, h oh, thank you. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.560 I mean, that's fine. To be clear. That's a high 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.400 ranking doctor from the Dutch government on a work trip 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.319 to burning Man. The night before, he told us he 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.360 had gotten stranded on the far end of the play 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.720 at and watched the sun rise. When he wasn't riding 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.640 around on the art car, Rick was baking around looking 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.120 for big wigs who could help his cause. He never 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.440 quite reconnected with his friend Floor, the one who promised 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.040 introductions to the Cirque des founder and the Ubert co founder. 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.280 We know because we spent a whole night biking around 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.120 the Plia with Rick looking for them. He struck out 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.240 at one party where he was hoping to run into 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:49.160 Sergey Brenn, the Google co founder, He wasn't there. Instead, 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.160 Rick got to talk with Grover Norquist, the anti tax crusader, 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.280 for around twenty minutes. He also hubbed up with Darren Aronofsky, 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.840 the director of the movie Black Swan. Rick strategy is 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.120 to kind of just go with the flow and hope 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.959 that the chaos of Burning Man delivers him to someone 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.760 with deep pockets and an interest in psychedelic drugs. This 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.839 particularly here. You know, I don't have a list of 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.199 people that I know where they're camping and I want 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.800 to go see them. So that's how you've approached in 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.520 the past. Yeah, sometimes I have that set up. This year, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.800 I don't. So this year is more like serendipity. And 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.680 we thought he'd be upset by all the missed connections, 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.960 but Rick always focuses on the positive, even when he 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.240 just missed the co founder of Circus by a few minutes. 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.400 He says it's fate, he'll have another opportunity for that introduction. Instead, 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.160 he relishes the small victories, like getting part of his 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.000 organization listed on a flyer each visitor receives when they 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:54.160 arrive at Burning Man. Oh my god, Oh wow, that's awesome. 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:02.920 Oh wonderful is eight? That was just after we'd rolled 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.400 into Burning Man. The flyer mentioned the Zendo Project, part 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.280 of maps that helps people on bad trips at festivals. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.000 It was listed up high on the flyer above the fold. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.640 This is about the information. This is so good. This 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:18.839 is the kind of thing that you're gonna want to 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.520 keep with you. The guy's enthusiastic a hundred percent in 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.520 that came through the first time we met Rick at 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.280 a conference in San Francisco, he asked us if we 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.600 minded doing our interview while he picked up a little weed. 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.920 Rick lives in Massachusetts, where apparently the selection just isn't 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.760 as good. He asked the saleswoman at the dispensary for 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:43.640 the pottiest pot, and then he showed us how he 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.480 planned to sneak his two hundred and twenty nine dollars 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.880 worth of lemon tie test airport security when he flew 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:55.920 back east Later that night. Really, Rick's entire adult life 0:12:55.960 --> 0:13:02.160 has been intertwined with the legal status of psychedelic drugs. Well, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:07.880 the first time that I ever tried psychedelics was at college, 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.640 and it was in my freshman year of college, and 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:21.640 it was LSD, and I was profoundly impacted by the 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.120 sort of flow of thoughts and feelings. This was in 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.319 the early nineteen seventies. M d m A wasn't yet 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.720 part of the college drug scene, but LSD and mushrooms were. 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.839 By the nine eighties, m DMA became more popular. Rick 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.280 was thinking he wanted to become a therapist and use 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:43.439 m d m A to heal people. But then m 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:47.440 DMA became illegal to so Rick, who was thirty but 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.560 still working on his undergrad degree, sued the government. He lost, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.160 but found his lifelong calling. Rick realized that bringing m 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.840 d m A back was going to be a political battle, 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.520 so years after starting MAPS, he ended up getting a 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:07.640 PhD from Harvard in public policy, not psychology. He toiled 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.640 in obscurity for decades, but finally his cause has gained traction. 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.319 Lots of scientists are studying m d m A and PTSD, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.880 some of them get funding for MAPS in one especially 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.320 compelling study published this year, twenty six veterans and first 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.520 responders with PTSD got therapy along with m d m A. 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.760 After just two sessions, they no longer met the medical 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:36.400 definition of PTSD. So we think one is when it 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.520 will become m d m A sisted psychotherapy will be 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:44.680 a legal treatment available by prescription, So that's roughly three 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.120 years from now. But that's not just Rick's opinion. Here's 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.040 Gooul Dolan, a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins University who studies 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:56.200 psychedelic drugs. The clinical trials of m d m A 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:03.000 for PTSD are remarkable and the responses are like nothing 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.520 we've ever seen before, right, I mean, fs arise don't 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.240 work out well, therapy doesn't work out well. You know, 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.160 no ner a psychiatric drugs basically has those has had 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.720 those kinds of responses. Gool's most recent study was kind 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.240 of amazing, and it grabbed a nice big headline in 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.840 the New York Times. Her researchers gave m DUMA to octopuses, 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.240 which are usually really kind of owners, and octopus has 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.520 basically started hugging each other, or, as Gool put it, 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:35.360 they definitely become more pro social on m d M A. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.760 A lot of Gool's research, like the Octopus study, focuses 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.520 on figuring out how psychedelics work. There's a lot we 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.920 don't know, but it seems that the real power of 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:45.960 the drugs is putting people in a state of mind 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:50.200 where they're more receptive to things like suggestion or empathy. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.080 In a sense, what the drugs really do is help 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.040 people heal themselves. That's one of the things that makes 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.280 them tricky drugs for pharmaceutical companies to pursue. Most of 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.520 the research surrounding psychedelics involves using them to make typical 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.320 talk therapy more effective, rather than using them on their own. 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.480 Not to mention then, in studies, the drugs seemed to 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.400 do their job after only a few doses, rather than 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.440 a potential lifetime income stream of a prescription pill, and 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.720 patents have expired on M d M A, so it 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:26.960 wouldn't really make them much money anyway, but researchers are 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.480 still making incredible discoveries. Johns Hopkins is a major hub 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.960 of psychedelic research. Back they did a small pilot study 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.120 of smokers after going through one psychedelic session. A whopping 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.720 eight of the volunteers had kicked their habits. Six months later, 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:49.840 after a year, sixty seven were still non smokers, and 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.080 it could also help alcoholics. When Gul was a medical school, 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.160 she spent some time staying why AA meetings are effective. 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:00.000 Her research has suggested psychedelics might make them work even better. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:05.240 You know, I think you could make a case that 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:10.159 if you gave M D M a at um, you know, 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:14.600 one of these these alcoholics anonymous meetings instead of coffee 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.680 and cigarette that, you know, the efficacy of those interventions 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.439 might be bigger. The space has really grown in recent years. 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.560 Another nonprofit, the U. S Oona Institute, will soon sponsor 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.399 its own trials for psilocybin, and there is at least 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.280 one corporate venture in the space, Compass Pathways. They're planning 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.840 their own Phase three trials in Europe and North America 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:40.240 for treatment resistant depression. Cool thinks that funders and regulators 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:42.879 are becoming more open minded to a future of psychedelic 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.320 medicines because so many of the medicines that we have 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.880 today aren't really working. I mean, I can imagine all 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.080 kinds of scenarios that you might want to use. This 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.920 from Rick's point of view, PTSD is the best scenario 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.080 for winning the approval of regulators in the public too. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.440 Both of the drugs that proved to treat it, Paxel 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.520 and zolof are considered pretty ineffective, but studies show that 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.320 m d M A is very effective. Once MAPS paves 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.440 the way for m d M as medicine, Rick thinks 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:25.520 it will be easier to legalize psychedelics all out. The 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.040 PTSD trials will take at least three years, but access 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.760 could come even sooner under what's known as compassionate use programs, 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.399 in which patients can gain access to experimental therapies before 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.600 trials are complete. Therapists we talked to you said the 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.480 results can be really amazing. One therapist who worked on 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.439 MAPS earlier trials said that m DMA helped heal a 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.160 woman with PTSD who had previously gone to more than 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.000 fifteen hundred therapy sessions for now. People sometimes seek out 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:59.640 treatment outside mainstream medicine among a network of underground psychedelic therapists. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.200 Some of that even goes on at Burning Man. Rick 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.800 spent much of his last few days there counseling a 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:10.440 veteran suffering from PTSD. Rick could tell the man needed help. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.840 It was somebody that seemed on the verge of, you know, 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.160 massive mental breakdown. Was was in a massive mental breakdown 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.080 when we met, crying and talking about how there was 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.800 no point. Nothing else had worked PTSD for decades. You know. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.760 It was just such a powerful appeal for help. And 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.159 the fact that it was both a veteran and a 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.840 retired police officer. The same person who had been a 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:40.280 veteran and also a police officer now was retired. It 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.879 just made me think that this is the ideal kind 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.520 of person we're trying to show. If we're trying to 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.959 mainstream psychedelics. You know, what's more mainstream than a veteran 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.560 and a police officer. Along with the counseling, Rick treated 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.800 the vet with m d m A. This wasn't the 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.840 full treatment that MAPS is undertaking and its Phase three trials. 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.280 The Phase three treatments are our of therapy with three 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.040 M d m A sessions one month apart, but Rick 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.120 gave the flavor of it. It was very inspiring because 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.000 there was a point where this person was able to 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:15.240 breathe more fully than in many, many years. It started 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.800 a process that I think provided hope, you know, it's 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:24.200 not again a one dosed miracle cure, but to see 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.920 someone start in a puddle of tears and feeling like 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.679 all the options had been exhausted and there was no 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:36.080 reason to live anymore. To having hope and interest in 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:43.560 another um therapy sessions was profoundly inspiring. And also the 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.359 fact that it was someone who had been a police 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.920 officer for fifteen years and before that, veteran in the 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:52.920 Navy for a very long time. Rick says the vet 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.080 is doing better and looking into getting more therapy. In 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.920 one sense, legalizing m DMA for medical youth or otherwise 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.080 would just be a recognition of something that is already true. 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.560 Medicine isn't something that just treats illness. I think it's 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.680 very difficult to figure out which uses count as medical 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.080 and which uses don't. Uh, and it's become more and 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:21.639 more difficult as medicine itself has become more consumer oriented. 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.400 That's Matt Lambkin, a law professor at the University of Tulsa. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.880 Lamb Can points out that while the approval and regulation 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.520 of a drug often hinges on it having medical purpose, 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.600 we also prescribe a lot of drugs to people without 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.840 any medical condition at all. So what do we mean 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:43.960 by a medical use um. It's intuitively appealing to think, well, 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.960 what we mean is treating some kind of illness, But 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:49.760 if you take just a second to think about it, 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.760 medicine does lots and lots of things besides just treating illnesses, 0:21:54.960 --> 0:22:02.120 and always has right contraception, abortion, the are medical interventions 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:06.679 that are usually not provided to treat any illness. Lambkin 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.359 can also see a future not too far away where 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.159 m d m A is illegal medicine. So a lot 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.840 of things that seemed unlikely to me a while ago 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:18.679 with respected drug policy. UM I mean, I never imagined 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.760 that we would be where we are today in terms 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.520 of uh marijuana across the States. It was sort of 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.080 inconceivable twenty years ago. The FDA does have a track 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.800 record of following the science wherever it goes. That means 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.480 that m d m A could soon be widely prescribed. 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.600 One thing that could easily get in the way of that, though, 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.560 is money to keep pushing the science forward. Rick knows 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.920 he has an uphill battle ahead, but for him that's 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:48.800 no obstacle. I've had to really learn how to be 0:22:49.760 --> 0:23:11.760 happy with trying rather than succeeding. And that's it for 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.560 this week's prognosis. Thanks for listening. Do you have a 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:18.119 story about healthcare in the US or around the world. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.159 We want to hear from you. You can email me 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.119 at m Cortes at Bloomberg dot net or find me 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.320 on Twitter at Fay Cortes. If you were a fan 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:29.679 of this episode, please take a minute to rate and 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:34.040 review us. It helps new listeners find the show. This 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.440 episode was produced by Lindsay Cradowell. The story editor was 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:41.439 Mark Chauffit. Thanks also to Drew Armstrong and Liz Smith. 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.880 Francesco leviashead of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you next week.