1 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Joining me 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: today is the incredibly talented actress and writer Kirsten Vangsness, 4 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: whom millions of fans know as FBI technical analyst Penelo 5 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: be Garcia from Criminal Minds and now Criminal Minds Evolution. 6 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: For more than twenty years, Garcia has been the heart 7 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: of the BAU, helping audiences understand not just who commits 8 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: horrific crimes, but why we are exploring the real life 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: criminal psychology that inspires Criminal Minds, and why the series 10 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: has remained one of television's most fascinating explorations of human behavior. Hi, Kirsten, 11 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: Welcome to Killer Thriller. 12 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. 14 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: We have a lot of things to cover today, So 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: first we're going to talk about Criminal Minds. You know, 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: maybe one of the most successful television shows to ever 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 2: be a television show, and one of the things that 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: Criminal Minds and now Criminal Minds Evolution has always done 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: so well is ask not just who committed the crime, 20 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: but why and why do you think audiences have connected 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: with that approach for so many years? 22 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 3: I think that all of us do. I mean, think 23 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 3: about when you might have been in some sort of 24 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: disagreement with someone you're super duper close to, whether it's 25 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 3: a primary caregiver and you're an adult now, or whether 26 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 3: you have a beloved or someone you have a crush on, 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 3: some a deep friend and something happens. We've all been 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: there where something happens and our defenses go up. We 29 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 3: get super contracted and they either I mean, depending on 30 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: how much therapy you've had or whatever, right a lot 31 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 3: in my case, right me to you, me too. But 32 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: you've heard people, I've heard myself. You do things and 33 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: say things. You're like, that's not me. I don't do 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 3: that at all. We segment off parts of ourselves and 35 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 3: we go, oh, I would never, I would never, never, never, never, 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 3: And people do, especially in the world now. I think 37 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 3: we're getting better. But this idea that like, oh everybody acts, 38 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 3: so everybody's so together, and oh yeah, when I make pasta, 39 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: it's just like how it looks like the girl does 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 3: it on Instagram and everything's clean, right yeah, when I 41 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 3: spread my tofu, that's exact. No. So this idea, I 42 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: think we all do, think behave in sometimes reprehensible ways. 43 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 3: And the deal is is that behavior can be disgusting 44 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: human beings. Everybody came into this earth and just wanted 45 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: to take their next breath and where it it's all 46 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: wonky and strange, is what some people decide they need 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: to take their next breath? Or you know, the audacity, 48 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 3: the temerity of people in the world right now, some 49 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 3: of which are running the government to behave in ways 50 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: that like, oh, I can just do this and like 51 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 3: and they get away with it, and you're like, the 52 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: temerity of that, and it makes you very curious and 53 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: in an expanded, really hyperbolic in the way of criminal 54 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: minds way, because oh my gosh, we all have to 55 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: remember that there's not that many serial killers walking around 56 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 3: at one time given moment. But in that hyperbolic way 57 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: that criminal minds does it, you can both narrow it 58 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 3: down to the things that happen in your life. And 59 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: I know for a lot of feminine bet creatures, I 60 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: hear a lot of this is my comfort show, This 61 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,839 Speaker 3: is my comfort show, And I think that I date, yeah, 62 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 3: that idea of like everything, Oh my gosh, this is 63 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: the worst thing could ever that we are encountering people 64 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: on literally the worst day of their lives right, and 65 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: there are going to be people, but both we both 66 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 3: have an aspirational view of what the FBI can be, 67 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: which I think is important imagination work that we should 68 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: all be doing. So we have that. But then also 69 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 3: there are people who care. There are people who are 70 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 3: willing to put all of their viscera on the line 71 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: to take care of other people. And that makes people 72 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 3: feel better because there are so many people in the 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 3: world that have had so many horrible, scared things happen 74 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: where no one's been there for them. So be able 75 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: to put your nervous system through that journey and have 76 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 3: an end bit that's like, okay, it can be okay. 77 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: I think it's really important. And then you add on 78 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: top of that ice cream Sunday the fact that all 79 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: of us in that main cast get on like a 80 00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: house on fire, and we're all passionate about making sure 81 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: that all I think every single one of us have 82 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: been in situations where like we were the co star 83 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: or the two line, or that I really want to 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 3: be an actor, but I don't have any credits place 85 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 3: at one point in another. So it's really important for 86 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: us for our guest cast to feel like you're part 87 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: of this, Yes, and I think we're we're that way 88 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: with the crew, and that's not like because we're lovely people, 89 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: that's just that's the right way to behave at work. Yes, 90 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 3: So we all really deeply care about each other. So 91 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: you can feel that as you know, because as we're shooting, 92 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 3: we really care about each other. We're not playing a 93 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: game of you know, that person's the start. I mean, 94 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: obviously Joe Mantenna is the start. Obviously Pageant Browoster's the start. 95 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: But I'm saying that we don't do that, none of us. 96 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: There's no hierarchy in that way. 97 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: Like yep, I do think that's why you know, people 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 2: might who viewers might not necessarily be able to pick 99 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: that out right, but they can understand there's something that 100 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: feels very authentic ticket and very kind of community base. 101 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: And when you're dealing with a show. 102 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: That's really trying to understand human behavior, you know, rather 103 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: than just solving crimes, it's like it's it's kind of key. 104 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: And so yeah, it's the transparency. You know, me and 105 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: the girls, I remember this is pre this this iteration 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 3: of criminal minds. I mean, we all sat in my 107 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: hot tub and really, how much do you make, How 108 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: much do you make? How much? Okay you need to make? 109 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: Make like that kind of time of it is happening 110 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: all over and our boss Eric Amesser, the way she 111 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 3: runs the place, there's a transparency that's an authenticity and 112 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: a taking responsibility for your behavior. Like it's not like 113 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: it's always perfect, you know what I mean? You could 114 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 3: look up all kinds of things in the news and 115 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: things things that have happened on criminal minds, but like 116 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: the degree of like, oh we did that, let's make 117 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: it better is right evasive? 118 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: Right? 119 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: So what do you think you've You've spoken about being 120 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: interested in understanding people rather than just reducing them to labels, 121 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: which is very much how what I'm interested in also, 122 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: and especially in doing this podcast where we're talking about 123 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: some pretty grisly things, I'm really mainly interested in, like 124 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: how do we how do we do these things as 125 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: human beings? So like, what do you think that we 126 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: gain by asking why instead of just stopping it what happened? 127 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: Gosh? 128 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: I think it all is why, because if you stop 129 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 3: at what happened, then the person who's talking about what 130 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 3: happened gets to be in their own reactivity, right they 131 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: get to wring their hands and say how bad that 132 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 3: person is. What I mean by that is that instead 133 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 3: of hey, why did they do that? Or let's go 134 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: a little deeper or whatever, it's like, no, let's talk 135 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: about how terrible, No, let's go right, and that kind 136 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: of thing. It hijacks your nervous system. It's intentional to 137 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: get you off the topic. It's a classic, uh borderline 138 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: narcissistic any of us who the parent or anybody like that, 139 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: who did that, those kind of things, it's a classic jarvo. Right, 140 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 3: It's classic. So when another person, even when they're talking 141 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: about somebody that did something terrible, to kind of get 142 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: into that, which I understand, I'm going to show that 143 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 3: like that's its bread and butter, right is doing that. 144 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 3: But but the fun part is why the fun part 145 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 3: I'm saying fun but the but the but the part 146 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: that you always have to remember is that that is 147 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: any one of us, we're one arrownet away. You know, 148 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 3: by the grace of God, all of us and the 149 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 3: grace of Goddess all of us had wonky uh fissures, 150 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 3: terrible moments that happened to us in our childhood. And 151 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 3: some people that the the you know, the the prom 152 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: queen didn't get a pony, and that hurts her maybe 153 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: in it because of the way her nervous sysim is 154 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: in the same way that somebody who's you know, parent 155 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 3: through some water on their head and in front of 156 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: some friends or whatever. Right, So like you don't know 157 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 3: how those things form, and we're all just one blip away, yeah, 158 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: from not being that person. So it's it's just something 159 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: I think that we have to keep in mind. And 160 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: and I think we live in a world where I 161 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 3: don't want to live in that world. I feel like 162 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: we are told to live in a world where like 163 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: someone does something wrong, punish them, forget about it, it 164 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 3: goes away. And that, right, that isn't true. 165 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: Right, It's like calling someone evil Charles Manson evil, Well, okay, 166 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: but that doesn't really like help us understand anything. 167 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't give us any perspective. 168 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: Yes, And I do think that the part where you 169 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 3: get to say evil, reprehensible, shameful, gross disgusting is behavior 170 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 3: Like someone's behavior can be like that when you are 171 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: I have the ability to reduce a whole human animal 172 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 3: to that and ignore the whatever that chapter all. 173 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: The all the monsters source or the monsters that. 174 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: Created that monster, the monster that got off the hook 175 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 3: for creating that. Yeah, and I used to think that 176 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: about I think that about world leaders all the time. 177 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god, their mom never hugged them. 178 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: What does that do to your mind? And what do 179 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 3: you now think about other people? Because that's the other 180 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: part is that all those people are operating, I think, 181 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: assuming that we're all wearing the same glasses that they are. 182 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: It's so curious because in all of the you know, 183 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 2: if we've covered Ted Bundy and all these kinds of 184 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: serial killers, and there are certain people that have had 185 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: the same upbringing, for example, and don't do the same things. 186 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: You know, one becomes a serial killer and one goes 187 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: to therapy, you know, or one becomes a therapist or 188 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: you know, like there are many different ways that these 189 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: things evolve. So it's it's really you know, So, what 190 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: do you think, looking back on the whole show and 191 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: all of it, what do you think that Criminal Minds 192 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: has always been trying to say about human behavior. 193 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: I think it's been trying to say. I think, well, 194 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: I'm trying to put put on my eric a messer 195 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: hat and try to think Erica, our showrunner, would say. 196 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 3: I think that she would say, like, the heroes are 197 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: always there, right, I think that that's what she would say. 198 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: I always say that on our best day, and I 199 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: think she would agree with this too. I think our 200 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: best day are my episodes that I love. And you're 201 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 3: talking to someone who is clinically diagnosed autistic. And I 202 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 3: am unable to watch the very show I am on 203 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 3: because my imagination does not underst stand it's not really 204 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 3: happening in the moment I'm watching it. So I have read, Oh, 205 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 3: I've written five episodes of the show, and you know 206 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: you'll watch them again and again in terms of cuts, 207 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 3: and I have to disassociate to do to do that. 208 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 3: But I think that the show. And but I read 209 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,599 Speaker 3: all the episodes, we do table reads in them. I 210 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 3: always say, like, you get to choose. I can either 211 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: be in the show or watch the show. But I 212 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 3: can't do both because I couldn't watch the show for 213 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: recreational purposes. It wouldn't be the way I consume entertainment, 214 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: you know what I mean? 215 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 4: Wow? 216 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love watching my friends act and I 217 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: do write. If aj Or directs an episode, I'm gonna 218 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 3: be like, Okay, I'm gonna see here. I'm gonna watch it, 219 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 3: but I can't watch one, you know, tip to tail, 220 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 3: I can't. 221 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: You can't, so you can watch it, but you just 222 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: don't watch yourself, or you can't. 223 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 3: Oh, I can't watch I can't watch any of violent 224 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: stuff and violent anything hold up to violent. You know, 225 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 3: we classically do episodes where it's like people are living 226 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 3: their best lives. They're having like this fun moment, it's 227 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: very relatable, and then here comes a guy to disembowel 228 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 3: the mother who just got her favorite, you know what 229 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: I mean. And like I am sitting there. I could 230 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: have read that thing three times and I'm like, oh no, 231 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: like and I think my job, that's really great because 232 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 3: my imagination goes, oh, it's just Kirsten over here, Penelope 233 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 3: Garcia is dealing with this, this, this, this, this, and 234 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 3: it's happening and I'm in it and I'm there. I 235 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 3: don't think anybody you would want to anybody who had 236 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: that kind of job would want to be like, let 237 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: me go home and watch it, you know what I mean, 238 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: let me go home and yeah, this thing, I don't 239 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: so that. But like, also I was back to I 240 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: think that our show at its best is when we 241 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 3: talk about monsters creating monsters. 242 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, like hurt people, hurt people, Yeah, I know. 243 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 3: It makes everybody all. I'm not saying people should be 244 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: you know, let off the hook and not have to 245 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: take responsibility for things that they do. I'm not saying 246 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 3: we shouldn't protect more. I mean I'm as I am. 247 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: I am like most of the world A have had, 248 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: you know, sexual trauma, and people do things and whatever, 249 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: and you want people to be held responsible and yes, 250 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: those people to not do that to anybody else. Again. 251 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: I just think that the way in which we incarcerate 252 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: and punish it doesn't get to the end result. It 253 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: sort of covers and it doesn't take care of very 254 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 3: people who had the thing. 255 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: Right, Like, you're not saying that these things are you know, 256 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: excuses for behavior. They're just explanations if there is a 257 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: reason for these things, and it doesn't. 258 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: Make it right. It just explains like what's happening and 259 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: how we got there? 260 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and can we stop the button? 261 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: You know. 262 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 3: I have a one of the people who I have 263 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 3: been lucky enough to meet on my adventures and criminal minds. 264 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 4: She is. 265 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 3: I can talk about this because they've adverted about it. 266 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: She is who they named Emily after on our show, 267 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 3: and she used to work for the FBI, and she 268 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: created a thing where they were able to use an 269 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: algorithm to be able to look at a teenager social 270 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 3: media and be able to tell based on music they 271 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 3: listened to, based on their social behaviors, if they were 272 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 3: more or less likely to participate in school shooting. And 273 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 3: they've been able to stop children. They've gotten to these 274 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 3: kids and gone like hey, hey, and been able to 275 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: find evidence of that they were going to do that 276 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: and be able to stop it before it happens. So 277 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: now we've got a kid who hasn't done anything wrong 278 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: aside from maybe some minor quote unquote like gathering munitions 279 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: or whatever, like not gone and killed another human being yet, 280 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: and you're able to take them and get them what 281 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 3: they need so that they don't do more. 282 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: That is extraordinary. That is so amazing. 283 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the kind of thing where I feel like, 284 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 3: why it's really good to know why people do things, 285 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 3: because if you can catch if you can catch the 286 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, this kid's doing this, this, this, and 287 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: there's someone there, I mean, that's really the key is 288 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: that a lot of times, these kids, a lot of 289 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 3: times people, there's no one there. When a lot of 290 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: these things happened to any of us, there was either 291 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 3: no one there or there were people protecting the person 292 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 3: because their brains, because of what happened to them, they 293 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 3: could handle it happening. So it's all these people trying 294 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 3: to cover things up, thinking, oh, if we lift this 295 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: rock and all the bugs come out, it's just going 296 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 3: to be too overwhelming, you know, And that's never true. 297 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: There's there's a lot of rocks, and there's a lot 298 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: of bugs under the rocks, and they're going we need 299 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: to get the bugs right, yes, right. 300 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 2: In several interviews, you've described Garcia as somebody who always 301 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: tries to hold on to her humanity. So why do 302 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 2: you think audiences respond so strongly to that balance of 303 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: compassion and optimism. 304 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 3: I it comes. It's one of the things about Garcia 305 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 3: because I came in with just like two lines. I 306 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 3: wasn't supposed to be in more than one episode, and 307 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 3: then it just kind of I kind of stayed. I 308 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: love that that I got to be one of the 309 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 3: architects of her as she went along. I also didn't 310 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: know I was going to keep the job, so I 311 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 3: kept leaving things in my fake office. I leave my 312 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 3: grandmother's candy dish, and I thought, well, if they fire me, 313 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 3: I'll have to come back and get it. And then 314 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 3: I could walk by the art department be like those 315 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: smart intern Yeah. So I sort of created her kind 316 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: of based on like an aspirational version of myself. I 317 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 3: can't type, I don't understand, you know, I a mathematics 318 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: like that, I need a lot things that are an 319 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 3: exact science like I'm a good comp I'm a terrible 320 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 3: baker like that. Science things are really hard for me 321 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: to to latch onto. And I so I created this 322 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 3: sort of aspirational person. But there are parts of her 323 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: that I think are I believe in and I think 324 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 3: are important. And so the ability to understand that monsters 325 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: are created by monsters, and the ability to put yourself 326 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 3: in someone else's shoes and and and not get over 327 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: that blip, but not get over the blip of like 328 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 3: not get jaded. 329 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very hopeful. It's a hopeful. 330 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 331 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 3: And I know people, I mean some people, and I 332 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I I understand that Garcia, 333 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 3: I understand that me. There are people that aren't for everybody, 334 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 3: you know what I mean, And I that's a lesson. 335 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 3: I think we all learn as like some people aren't 336 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 3: gonna like your flavor ice cream, and that's okay, and 337 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 3: so I'm but I and I am like a strong spice. 338 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 3: So you can't put Garcia in a lot of the show, 339 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: and people kind of don't believe that, Like, no, no 340 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: one can be that. That part comes so easy for 341 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: me because of the fact that I think that the 342 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 3: only way you can truly hunker down and take a 343 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 3: bite out of true pain and despair and awfulness is 344 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 3: if the best fuel is joy. And I'm not talking 345 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 3: about faky pos whatever. I'm talking about pure and adulterated 346 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 3: pleasure and like that pleasure seeker. So I am like 347 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: that she gets her pleasure from other things than me. 348 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 3: She can extract pleasure easier from different things than I can, 349 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 3: and vice versa. But I think that we all want 350 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 3: that part of ourselves. But that part does come really 351 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 3: easy for me. I we're neighbors, me and Garcia, not 352 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 3: the same person, but we're definitely like I I don't 353 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: even know if we'd be friends, But because I don't know, 354 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know if we have the same 355 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 3: things in common. Sometimes I do, I don't know, But 356 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 3: like I I'm happy that she helps people because I 357 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: want people to feel the thing that I want when 358 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: I'm scared, you know, which somebody cares and somebody can 359 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: do something. You want someone to be able to get 360 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 3: how badly do we all want someone to like get 361 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 3: in there and like fix it, you know what I mean, 362 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 3: and and stop it, and that someone can do that, 363 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 3: and that if I can use my imagination for that 364 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 3: and like I'm just playing pretend on a TV show, 365 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: I'm not caring cancer, there are people out there that 366 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 3: are really doing that stuff. And so the more we 367 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 3: can use our imagination to imaginate that stuff. There are 368 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: people out there, you know what I mean. There are 369 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 3: doctors that are making like I know, got doctors maybe 370 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: like they've tricked tumors in a kid's brain to think 371 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: it's polio and then given a kid the polio vaccine 372 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 3: and it's made the tumor shrink. There's someone who's you know, 373 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 3: need like, so there's there's reason, there's things, and we're 374 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: predisposed to think we're being chased by a tiger, which 375 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 3: is why everyone loves Criminal Minds. But the truth is, 376 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 3: very rarely are we actually we have a tiger here, 377 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 3: you have one here, but we're very rarely being chased 378 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: by a tiger. 379 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: And I think these are inanimate. 380 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: Opricia is the reminder to all of us that, like, 381 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: we have to choose to find the good, right, It's 382 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 3: a really joyful practice. 383 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: I love that because then that also offers up that 384 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: it's kind of a choice. We have a choice of 385 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: how we want to go through the world, and we 386 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: can It can be optimistic and with compassion, or it 387 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 2: can be you know. 388 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: I think very few people have the privilege of being 389 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: in despair. There are people in so much despair right 390 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 3: now that they don't feel like they have the privilege 391 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 3: of being indiscrible like so I find it very strange too, 392 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 3: Like that would be very strange for me, especially even Garcia, 393 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 3: Like she's having to deal with all this stuff that 394 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 3: these people are going through. Why would she be upset? 395 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 2: Right, It's like a constant barometer. 396 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, like I'm okay, I'm okay. 397 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: So which Over the years, Criminal Minds has a splore 398 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: to everything from serial offenders to family violence and coercion, 399 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,479 Speaker 2: and which or what kinds of stories have stayed with 400 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: you the longest. 401 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,239 Speaker 3: I'm a real again because I have a hard time 402 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 3: watching the show. So the ones that stay with me 403 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: the longest let me think I really enjoy the magical 404 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 3: realism as we do. Which I don't know if everybody 405 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 3: else loves those, but like a lot of times, Breen Frasier, 406 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 3: who's one of our other executive producers, writes those I 407 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: love an Erica one. I love all of our writers 408 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 3: are so good, but like I love a weird episode, 409 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: I tend to default to those, but I always, and 410 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 3: this is really super cheesy, I usually love the episode 411 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: we're on, you know, because that's again and I don't 412 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 3: know if that's my autism talking or whatever, but I'm 413 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 3: so focused. 414 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: That's also very zen. 415 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 3: This is happening, so like, right after we get on this, 416 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 3: I'm going to go to work and I love my job, 417 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 3: and I go to work and I'm be like, Okay, 418 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: this is the most important thing we've ever done. And 419 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 3: it does genuinely feel like that to me, And I 420 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 3: know that probably makes me like, but it's true. Of course, 421 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 3: the ones I've written I really care about, like yeah, 422 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: Nelson Sparrow. I co wrote all of the episodes I wrote. 423 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 3: I co wrote with Erica Messer. I haven't co written 424 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 3: in the new iteration of it because for my favorite 425 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 3: reason in the world, which is we have a very 426 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 3: much smaller writers from than we used to have because 427 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 3: of the breakdown of business, which I'm looking forward to 428 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 3: it growing back. But Erica chose to hire writers that 429 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: had been writers assistance and had come up from Criminal Minds. 430 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 3: They know this show like nobody's business. So if I 431 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 3: were to co write an episode, I would be taking 432 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 3: work away from some truly incredible writers and the episode. 433 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: There's no way that my episode would be as good 434 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: and Erica has, which is the great thing about the show. 435 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 3: And I don't understand it. Aerica has so many ideas still, 436 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 3: like we're about to end our twentieth season, that first 437 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 3: episode of season twenty will be our three hundred and 438 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 3: sixty fifth episode, and she still has like a so 439 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 3: I don't ever when she comes and says like, here's 440 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 3: I can't think of anything, I'll be like, oh, let 441 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 3: me write one with you. But like I helped her 442 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: write Nelson Sparrow. I co wrote Nelson, which is the 443 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 3: episode where we find out that spoiler alert from a 444 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: long time ago. Gideon dies I co wrote there was 445 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: an arc that happened with Matthew Greg Goobluf's character Spencer 446 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 3: and I start. I wrote the episode that started that 447 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 3: arc where he gets arrested in Mexico. I wrote Beautiful Disaster. 448 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: That's the last episode that Shamar Moore was in of 449 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: the show. All of those were meaningful because they were 450 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 3: character based, you know, from a singular character. And then 451 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: I wrote We wrote Full Tilt Boogie, which was strangely 452 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 3: about something that if you watch it, we were writing 453 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: it going like we're going to get in trouble like 454 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 3: people because we were doing research about like people that 455 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 3: were getting like like off in Florida, and we're talking 456 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: about these and it was like a little and it 457 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: was that one was important to me because as the 458 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 3: daughter of a addict, I got to write things and 459 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,239 Speaker 3: do things and talk about things in a way that 460 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 3: you know, was important to me. And then I wrote 461 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 3: the series finale with her uh and and that was 462 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 3: really great. So I like a like relational. 463 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: Ones, Yes, yes, did you did? Did writing change the 464 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: way you thought about criminal behavior? 465 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I remember, like, we sometimes have 466 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 3: an FBI analyst BAU, like a person who used to 467 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 3: work them that would consult with us, and a lot 468 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 3: of times I would not battle with him, but he'd 469 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 3: be like, well, that's not how it is. That's how 470 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 3: it is, right. I was like, I understand, but we're 471 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 3: not doing it like we're playing pretend. And I decided 472 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 3: in my town that this is gonna have you so 473 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 3: like we which I understand. Some people are purests and 474 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 3: you want it to be exactly how it would be, 475 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 3: and I like the fantastical. 476 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you literally just answered the question that 477 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: I was going to ask, which was what are the 478 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 2: challenges that come with exploring real world themes through fiction? 479 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: And you just answered it. 480 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 3: But oftentimes you end up writing fiction and then it happens. 481 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: Right, Well, that's it for today, but don't miss part 482 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 2: two of my conversation with Kirsten Vang's Ness. 483 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: We'll leave the world of the Bau 484 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: Behind and dive into another unforgettable role as Kirsten takes 485 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 2: us inside the shocking true story behind Amish stud the 486 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: Eli Weaver story, a case involving deception, obsession, and a 487 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: murder that shattered one of America's most private communities.