1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff production of I Heart Radio. Hey 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: brain Stuff, Lauren Vogelbaum. Here. When a person dies violently 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: or unusually, or in an untimely fashioned, difficult questions invariably follow. 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: What happened? Could it have been prevented? Is foul play involved? 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: Has a crime been committed? Should we be worried? Those 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: are the questions that corners, medical examiners, and forensic pathologists 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: wrangle with every day. They are the ones who have 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: to find answers for the living. We spoke with Gary 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: Watts the Corner in Richland County, South Carolina. He said, morally, 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: I think we can be judged as a civilization on 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: how we treat those that are dead. We talked about 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: it all the time. I don't care for dealing with 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: somebody that was found under a bridge or was found 14 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: in a five million dollar house. We're going to treat 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: them with respect and dignity. We're going to take care 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: of their families in carrying out their duties. Though many 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: of America's death investigators, stile, medical examiners and corners, whose 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: work is supported by taxpayers, are hampered by a lack 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: of manpower, chronic underfunding, and a general public coolness toward 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: their work, whether people want to face it or not. 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: Though these jobs are critically important, death investigators not only 22 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: uncover possible foul play, but they can spot infectious diseases 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: and are among the first to identify epidemics and other 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: public health concerns. So what's the difference between a medical 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: examiner and a corner. Lots of people use those titles interchangeably, 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: but they're not the same. Here's the explanation from a 27 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: two thousand three workshop held by the U S Institute 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: of Medicine now called the National Academy of Medicine. Quote. 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: The major differences between corners and medical examiners are embedded 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: in the manner of their selection by electoral process versus appointment, 31 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: and their professional status. Corners are elected lay people who 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: often do not have professional training, whereas medical examiners are 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: appointed and have board certification in a medical specialty. Lot's explained. 34 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have the misconception from 35 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: a death investigative standpoint, that it has to be one 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: or the other. My opinion has always been that it 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: needs to be professionally trained death investigators, regardless of what 38 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: type of system you work whether it's a corner system 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: or a medical examiner system. What's forty year career as 40 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: a corner includes time as a police officer and an 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: emergency medical technician. Like some jurisdictions throughout the US, but 42 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: not all, the Richland County Coroner's Office uses medical examiners. Again, 43 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: they're normally physicians to actually conduct autopsies. Deputy corners do 44 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: the fieldwork, including investigating the death scene, tracking down medical records, 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: and interviewing witnesses. What said, we rely on the medical 46 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: exam or the forensic pathologist to give us the medical 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: reason the person dies. They determine the cause of death 48 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: from a medical standpoint. Corners determined the manner of death 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: through an investigative process. Take for example, a gunshot victim 50 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: is a homicide, a suicide, an accident? Can it be determined? 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: What said? You cannot necessarily make that determination just from 52 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: the autopsy process. You have to have skilled investigators in 53 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: the field, death investigators to help with that process to 54 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: make sure that you come up not only with the 55 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: proper cause of death, but also the proper manner of death. 56 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, states 57 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: have a myriad of different systems to conduct death investigations. 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: Some states use a centralized medical examiner system, some are 59 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: county or district based, and some mixing corners in varying ways. 60 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: States have differing definitions of what a coroner or a 61 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: medical examiner is. Too. Medical examiner in West Virginia, for example, 62 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a physician. In Georgia, someone can 63 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: be both the mayor and the corner if they live 64 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: in a town a fewer than five thousand people. In Nebraska, 65 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: the county attorney does the job of the corner and 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: in Texas, justices of the Peace handle corner duties. States 67 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: also have different requirements on what triggers an autopsy or 68 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: death investigation. All of it makes for confusing and sometimes 69 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: slipshod way that death is handled throughout the nation, From 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: one district to another. The authorities handling these issues may 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: have vastly differing competency and resources. What's common, it seems, 72 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: is this funding is a problem almost everywhere, and largely 73 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: because of that, it's extremely difficult to find qualified medical 74 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: examiners or forensic pathologists who can make good money outside 75 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: of government work, and it's becoming harder to pay qualified 76 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: people who know their way around the field. A report 77 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: by the Scientific Working Group on Medical Legal Death Investigation 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: cited a number of reasons for the shortage of forensic pathologists. 79 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Some estimate that fewer than five hundred are practicing in 80 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: the US. Among the reasons a lack of educational centers 81 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: that teach the profession, lacks funding to support that education, 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: high dropout rates, tight budgets among states and counties, and 83 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: the resultant low salaries the deter young people who may 84 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: want to enter the field. That shortage may be causing 85 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: some disturbing problems. A the eleven investigation by NPR, PBS, 86 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: and Pro Publica found jurisdictions that were cutting back on 87 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: autopsies when the cause of death seemed obvious. Craig Harvey, 88 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,119 Speaker 1: a death investigator with the Los Angeles County Corners Office 89 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: now retired, told NPR at that time, there's no way 90 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: that we can look at every case we should probably 91 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: be looking at. When you only see one in every 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: three cases, the possibility that homicide is going to be 93 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: missed are pretty great. For Watts, who has been involved 94 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: with more than thirty death investigations in his career, The 95 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: Systemic problems always come back to money. If states don't 96 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: cough up enough to pay the right kind of experts, 97 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: the problems will persist, he said. The death investigation offices 98 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: are usually the last ones to get funding. It's something 99 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: that people either don't want to think about, try not 100 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: to think about, or won't think about until it affects 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: them personally, and then everyone wants to know all the 102 00:05:52,200 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: answers and exactly what happened. Today's episode written by John 103 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: Donovan and produced by Tyler Clang with kind assistants from 104 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan. Brain Stuff is a production of iHeart Radio's 105 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more in this and lots of 106 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: other topics, visit our home planet, how stuff Works dot com. 107 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: And for more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the 108 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 109 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.