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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 3: My name is Matt, my name is now They called

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Speaker 3: me bed Here. We're joined as always with our super

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Speaker 3: producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are here.

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Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Guys,

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Speaker 3: we all remember our recent two part series on diplomatic immunity.

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Speaker 4: Who could forget there's a golden time for the podcast.

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Speaker 3: We don't want to have plausible deniability on that. Oh man,

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Speaker 3: I'm already mess it up. Cover blown.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We dove deep into fact, fiction, corruption, and controversy surrounding

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Speaker 3: these strange, this strange sort of rubric we collectively call

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Speaker 3: diplomacy a modern civilization. Please check out the series. We

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Speaker 3: get weird with it. But folks, remember this everything we

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Speaker 3: talked about in those previous two chapters that applies to

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Speaker 3: the formal official stuff. As we teased earlier in Part two,

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Speaker 3: there's an entirely different layer of diplomacy the public does

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Speaker 3: not know about largely. So what do you guys think

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Speaker 3: you want to get into some shadow diplomacy?

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Speaker 4: WHOA, I think I unmeeded my mic and it like

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Speaker 4: pinged the spring on my micar that is. But to

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Speaker 4: answer your question, Ben, we also have to dig these

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Speaker 4: particular rud to vegas as to diplomatics.

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Speaker 3: As tourists, not diplomats. Here are the facts, all right,

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Speaker 3: diplomacy is weird. It's utterly necessary. Uh, you know, we

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Speaker 3: talked about it a little bit. But something like diplomacy

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Speaker 3: existed ever since the world's first human tribes and then

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Speaker 3: later civilizations figured out they did not have to kill

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Speaker 3: each other dot dot dot immediately.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's always nice. Uh outsiders show up, Oh they

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Speaker 2: must die way better if you can say, oh, hello, outsider,

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Speaker 2: how goes the because that's how they talked.

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Speaker 3: Hail fellow. Thing that looks like us that we culturally

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Speaker 3: do not acknowledge. What is the thing? Yeah? Yeah, what

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Speaker 3: that's going?

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Speaker 4: So all of this created what you might call a

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Speaker 4: new subclass of the old social strata, with rulers sending

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Speaker 4: envoys to enemies and allies in order to partake of

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Speaker 4: a certain gentleman's agreement. You know, this whole idea of

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Speaker 4: killing the messenger being a sort of a bad move, right, like,

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Speaker 4: not particularly tenable. Otherwise, how are we going to talk

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Speaker 4: to each other if I have to send my man

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Speaker 4: to parley with thee and then I get his head

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Speaker 4: back in a basket.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't really encourage an open discourse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And over time, as tribes become kingdoms and kingdoms

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Speaker 2: become states and you know, humanity of all civilization, you

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Speaker 2: get rules, like established rules that everybody decides to kind

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Speaker 2: of follow, although they are broken over and over and

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Speaker 2: over again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, this gentleman's agreement idea is a good comp

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Speaker 3: we would call it because as it evolved, even the

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Speaker 3: most bitter of rivals would most of the time but

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Speaker 3: very much not all of the time, allow safe passage

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Speaker 3: for messengers. And there's a reason to this. It's not

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Speaker 3: because these it's not because history is filled with nice people.

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Speaker 3: It's because communication and the information delivered via communication was

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Speaker 3: often more valuable than Russian into blind conflict. Russian into

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Speaker 3: blind conflict, keep it. Later, you'd see aristocrats who are

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Speaker 3: functioning as dignitaries. They were speaking with batonomy, They were

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Speaker 3: on behalf of the regime that birthed them, and we

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Speaker 3: kid thee not. It's very weird for us as Americans

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Speaker 3: to acknowledge that once upon a time, winning the genetic

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Speaker 3: lottery of birth was the only qualification to be a diplomat.

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Speaker 3: So wild man, and you know, at the same time,

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Speaker 3: this stuff is evolving, right, it starts to get we've

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Speaker 3: set this years back. But you can trace human civilization

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Speaker 3: in just a couple of categories or milestones. First you

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Speaker 3: start with the family, right. Then you create the tribe.

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Speaker 3: Then you find usually a religion, right. And then, as

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Speaker 3: Matt was saying earlier, you find a state, which creates

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Speaker 3: a civilization. And so what we see is in step

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Speaker 3: with this rise of communication, this rise of sophisticated civilization.

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Speaker 3: Another subclass of diplomacy waxes and waves. These are spies,

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Speaker 3: informants of every imaginable demographic, right, slaves, curtures, merchants, tourists,

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Speaker 3: people who can plausibly travel far and wide, like we

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Speaker 3: talked about in some sabotage or oss episodes. People who

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Speaker 3: can be in important rooms without being noticed and without

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Speaker 3: being questioned. You know what I mean. I know we're

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Speaker 3: talking about nuclear weapons, but that guy's just room service.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well that's why something like the United Nations

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Speaker 2: is so important, because you can actually get people together

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Speaker 2: and from all of these modern states and just have conversations, right,

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Speaker 2: rather than jumping to any kind of conflict. You can

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Speaker 2: go there and you could talk, and you can make resolutions,

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Speaker 2: and you can say things that really don't do anything,

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Speaker 2: but at least you're saying them so that everyone else

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Speaker 2: knows the position of your country or your kingdom.

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Speaker 3: And we were talking off air about some shows and

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Speaker 3: episodes of different shows that we very much enjoy. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: of course our touch point here to borrow that word

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Speaker 3: is Shaggy, the legendary musician who always says it was

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Speaker 3: not me, it wasn't, it wasn't in He's got a

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Speaker 3: whole song about it.

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Speaker 2: I did a thing, but it was not me. But

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Speaker 2: I did a thing but it was not.

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Speaker 4: Me, And we must find out who, in fact it was,

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Speaker 4: isn't because of the joke of that song that it

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Speaker 4: definitely was him.

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Speaker 3: Yes, okay, cool bottom, one camera, got it. That's right.

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Speaker 3: This is the thing the present practice of diplomacy emerged from.

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Speaker 3: As as you're describing all this patchwork of off the

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Speaker 3: book's agreements and if you look deeper into the modern day,

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Speaker 3: we find more and more legacies of these older systems.

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Speaker 3: Every government knows these loopholes, they know them very well.

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Speaker 3: And the weirdest thing about it, if you really look

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Speaker 3: into it, the weirdest thing about it is no one

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Speaker 3: at the top, no one with the ability to change

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Speaker 3: this imperfect system, actually wants to change it. They wanted

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Speaker 3: to continue on. I mean, first I would say, nobody's

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Speaker 3: figured out a better system. Diplomacy is like a busted

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Speaker 3: up used car. You know, did you guys ever have

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Speaker 3: a crappy car? Definitely? Yeah? Wait I wrote it in

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Speaker 3: a car? Maybe? Yeah, I think so. I had a

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Speaker 3: real bad.

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Speaker 4: Like Toyota situation for a while. It would overheat all

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Speaker 4: the time. And it did have a sixteen Dix changer

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Speaker 4: in it though, which was a lot of fun.

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Speaker 2: But Matt, how about you, Every car I've driven has

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Speaker 2: been mint.

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Speaker 4: That's I was about to say, like, say, mid you're

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Speaker 4: a car record.

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Speaker 3: I mean, diplomacy is like a used car with a

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Speaker 3: slippery transmission. You know, the windows don't always work, There

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Speaker 3: are a bunch of oil leaks you can't ever find,

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Speaker 3: and everybody across the globe looks around, and de Neiro

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Speaker 3: shrugs and says, better to have a car at all. Right,

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Speaker 3: So we keep driving this broken thing that we call diplomacy.

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Speaker 3: When we drive it around the world, everybody just tops

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Speaker 3: off the oil and hopes we can keep it running

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Speaker 3: for as long as possible. But there's a second reason

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Speaker 3: this system exists, and this gets us to tonight's show.

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Speaker 3: What is that second reason.

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Speaker 4: Well, that second reason may well be the most important reason,

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Speaker 4: and this is that everyone also knows how to weaponize

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Speaker 4: these loopholes and imperfections, which is a big part of

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Speaker 4: what we've been talking about, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 4: the kind of sabotage of parliamentary procedure, which I think

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Speaker 4: this perfectly describes, this weaponization of this kind of thing

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Speaker 4: that this is of course focused more on weaponizing some

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Speaker 4: of these conditions, these special dispensations that are allowed from

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Speaker 4: this system that started with the best of intentions, but

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Speaker 4: as of course, like many things, morphed into something not

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Speaker 4: quite resembling its original form.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no matter what country you look, no matter how

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Speaker 3: you vote, or what your ideology may be, you have

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Speaker 3: to realize the people at the top have all made

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Speaker 3: a unanimous calculation. Knowing what is broken with diplomacy, they say,

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Speaker 3: allows us to clock when enemies get up to Shenanigan's.

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Speaker 3: And further, they say, if we are smart boys, we're

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Speaker 3: smart chaps. This allows us to leverage those same problems

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Speaker 3: to our advantage. What could go wrong? It's messy stuff.

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Speaker 3: Please please check out our earlier series for in depth

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Speaker 3: explorations of this, along with multiple deeply disturbing examples. The

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Speaker 3: most bizarre thing we have to realize is all of

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Speaker 3: that is formalized, all of the stuff we talked about

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Speaker 3: in those first two chapters. It's real. As Matt said,

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Speaker 3: the United Nations has encyclopedias about this. Actually there's a

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Speaker 3: ton of references, policies, rules, and to your point, Noel,

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Speaker 3: gentlemen's agreements, Diplomatic immunity is real. Some people have pulled

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Speaker 3: off wild, heinous things as a result, but they can

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Speaker 3: be punished by their country of function or by their

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Speaker 3: country of origin. Essentially, if you push the envelope too

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Speaker 3: too far, de quorum be damned. There are gonna be consequences.

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Speaker 3: But it's still it's a shady game, you know. That's

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Speaker 3: why there's another class a diplomat that We teased a

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Speaker 3: bit in Part two of Diplomatic Immunity. There are folks

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Speaker 3: out there who don't have any bona fides. Really, they

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Speaker 3: don't have, you know, their International Studies degree from Georgetown.

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Speaker 3: They might just be a celebrity like Angelina Jolie. They

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Speaker 3: might be a good will ambassador.

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Speaker 2: Or they might be an actual facts national security advisor.

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Speaker 2: But they're operating outside of the primary channels, the channels

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Speaker 2: that anyone in the public from any country would ever

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Speaker 2: know about unless they chose to make it known.

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Speaker 3: Oh and they might be retired as well, from official life.

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Speaker 3: You might hear these folks called honorary consoles. That's sort

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Speaker 3: of the Jedi term. They're a handful of other equally

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Speaker 3: vague terms. These are credentials that can be granted by

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Speaker 3: either the origin country or the country of destination. As

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Speaker 3: far as the rest of the world is concerned, these positions,

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Speaker 3: as far as the public's concerned, these positions don't really exist.

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Speaker 3: You see a headline every so often when something goes wrong,

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Speaker 3: but they are collectively called, and with a shout out

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Speaker 3: to our friends at Pro Publica and the International Consortium

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Speaker 3: of Journalists, are collectively called shadow diplomats. So what is

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Speaker 3: it these folks do. We'll tell you after a word

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Speaker 3: from our sponsors, the League of Nations. Here's where it

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Speaker 3: gets great. You know, I was looking through all my

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Speaker 3: encyclopedia sets and oed kind of things at home, and

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Speaker 3: I could not find a definition of shadow diplomacy. So

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Speaker 3: maybe we can break it down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. So you will see many a news

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Speaker 2: article online that refers to shadow diplomacy or shadow diplomat

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Speaker 2: work or something to this level. And they're often talking

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Speaker 2: about unofficial channels or even sometimes an official person like

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Speaker 2: Jake Sullivan who was working as a National security advisor,

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Speaker 2: having secret meetings in places that we mentioned in previous

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Speaker 2: episodes like Vienna or in Bangkok, or just going to

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Speaker 2: places where there isn't going to be an official meeting

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Speaker 2: between countries, but they meet like and have discussions, right

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Speaker 2: high level discussions for things like this. But you'll also

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Speaker 2: have you'll also find articles that are discussing the exact

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Speaker 2: type of person that we mentioned before the break, somebody

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Speaker 2: who is unofficially acting on behalf of a country that

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Speaker 2: would not you know, not be making any kind of

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Speaker 2: decisions or making official statements on behalf of let's say

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Speaker 2: the United States, but they're doing it so it is

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Speaker 2: very strange. It's almost like it's a tough thing to

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Speaker 2: describe because it's someone doing work almost for nothing.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes volunteers, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beneath the surface of the

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Speaker 3: formal negotiations that you'll hear press releases about, there is

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Speaker 3: a network of unofficial envoys, former officials. Business tycoons are

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Speaker 3: very popular, as well as celebrities, VIPs like the decayed

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Speaker 3: aristocracy of Western Europe, politically connected fixers. You know, Kissinger

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Speaker 3: was super deep into this kind of stuff. They have

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Speaker 3: a lot of influence on international policy. They hold conversations

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Speaker 3: the public does not know about. A shadow diplomat is

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Speaker 3: a true smoky back room operative. They have little to

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Speaker 3: no diplomatic credentials. They got, as you were saying, Matt,

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Speaker 3: no salary, no official like bullet pointed list of responsibilities

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Speaker 3: or job duties, no official budget. Again official even if

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Speaker 3: they're deemed honorary consoles kind of like a professor emeritis position.

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Speaker 3: They are volunteers, so they leverage nepoti, networking, personal connections. Right,

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Speaker 3: let's get past the red tape. I went to Cambridge

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Speaker 3: with this guy's cousin, so I'll just go visit him

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Speaker 3: in Vienna. And sometimes there's subject matter experts as well, right,

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Speaker 3: Like I'm Eric Prince, I know about mercenaries. Let me

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Speaker 3: have this conversation over in West Africa.

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Speaker 4: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you guys about a specific situation

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Speaker 2: that I couldn't ascertain whether it would be considered shadow

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Speaker 2: diplomacy or regular diplomacy or something.

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Speaker 3: Else other it's diplomacy.

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Speaker 2: Plus maybe I just don't know, because in my mind

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Speaker 2: when I think diplomacy, I think officials sitting down. It's

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Speaker 2: a sanctioned meeting of some sort. It is known on

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Speaker 2: both sides. Everybody's aware that it's happening, and everybody's cool

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Speaker 2: that happening, and even public statements are made, Hey we're

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Speaker 2: having talks that kind of thing. There's a situation right

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Speaker 2: after the Chinese spy balloon situation went down in the

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Speaker 2: United States, I think it was twenty twenty three, and

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Speaker 2: this guy, Jake Sullivan, who was at the time the

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Speaker 2: National Security Advisor under President Biden, went over to Vienna

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Speaker 2: and met with this guy named Wang Yie, who was

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Speaker 2: I guess an equivalent person on the Chinese side. And

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Speaker 2: there were crazy tensions happening between the two countries, right,

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Speaker 2: and there's all kinds of public statements being made by

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Speaker 2: the you know, the presidents of both countries, by other

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Speaker 2: official people within the countries, and these statements are pretty

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Speaker 2: adversarial in the moment as it's happening. Yet, these two

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Speaker 2: guys of high level positions within the state departments of

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Speaker 2: their countries are hanging out at a bar in Vienna

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Speaker 2: and then hanging out, you know, at a hotel in Bangkok,

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Speaker 2: and then hanging out in Washington, hanging out in Beijing,

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Speaker 2: and it's just the two of them having talks, and

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Speaker 2: those talks end up being kind of the crux of

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Speaker 2: how China and the United States move forward from you know,

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Speaker 2: a diplomatic standpoint. Is that shadow diplomacy because it's just

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Speaker 2: two advisors hanging out talking, or is that regular diplomacy.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you brought that up, Matt, because in

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Speaker 3: our previous episodes on Diplomatic Immunity, we depicted just such

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Speaker 3: a situation, a little bit more off the books version

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Speaker 3: of it, where in our three characters are at a

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Speaker 3: cafe coolincidentally in Vienna, and we all dictated which coffee

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Speaker 3: orders we would have. I believe you wanted something in

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Speaker 3: a shoe, Is that correct? Bailey's from a shoe. Bailey's

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Speaker 3: from a shoe.

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Speaker 2: That's the only way, the only way to take it.

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Speaker 2: But but like, so that is that just diplomacy then?

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Speaker 2: Is that what we're saying?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, let me spend this out a little

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Speaker 3: bit more if I could. So. The idea then is

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Speaker 3: that there is not a clear demarcation or inflection point, right,

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Speaker 3: a clear border between what counts as official un statement

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Speaker 3: and some guys hanging out at a cafe. What we

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Speaker 3: see there is that these people had credentials for specified roles, right.

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Speaker 3: Their parent governments have a list of things that they

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Speaker 3: are supposed to do, and these guys are on salary. However,

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Speaker 3: to your question, they are arguably functioning a little outside

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Speaker 3: their remit. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The public only found out about this after Jake Sullivan

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Speaker 2: was on some show or he was giving a talk

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Speaker 2: and he mentioned these talks that he had with Wang Yi.

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Speaker 2: And that's the only reason anybody knows that it happened.

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Speaker 2: And those are the primary talks that occurred. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: between President g and President Biden at the time, it

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Speaker 2: was these guys well metotomy.

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Speaker 3: Again, it was via their proxies, just like an aristocrat

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Speaker 3: would go to Hungary, right and say, I am not

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Speaker 3: the king, but I'm kind of the king in this conversation.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, we did Joe Biden, but I'm kind of

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden for this one. It reminds me of the

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Speaker 3: Six Party talks with our friends in Pyeongyang, wherein you

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Speaker 3: would have legends like Christopher Hill go up and say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I'm not the president, but for the purposes of this conversation,

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Speaker 3: I kind of speak for him, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: I know what he wants to order on the menu.

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Speaker 3: It's weird because the best way to picture the concept,

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Speaker 3: the nice word we use is honorary console. That's when

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Speaker 3: your government kind of backs you up, kind of backs

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Speaker 3: you up, they give you a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: letter of mark, as we used to call it. I

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Speaker 3: think the best way to describe it for anyone unfamiliar

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Speaker 3: is through Star Wars. These people have powers Summer Jedi

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Speaker 3: Summer Sith. The Jedi version represents in a foreign location

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Speaker 3: speaking on behalf of their uh their home destination, and

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Speaker 3: they assist citizens. They as Nolan say, promote trade and

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Speaker 3: diplomatic relations, but they do not have full official, formal

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Speaker 3: consular powers. Yeah. So yeah, like sending the worm to

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Speaker 3: Kim Jong. I love that you brought that. I was

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Speaker 3: about that on daily Yeah, that was his name. Or

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Speaker 3: you could argue Curtis Jackson sending signals that he's going

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Speaker 3: to go to Donald Trump and ask him to not

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Speaker 3: pardon Sean Combs, which is also yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's like it's more like Steven Segall.

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Speaker 3: Steven Skull and Russia would be another example. Yeah. Oh,

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Speaker 3: or in the US, Steven sg maybe operating. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how well he can walk at this point. Oh

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Speaker 3: too many sweeps of the leg. Yeah, we've all seen

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Speaker 3: the video where he was just or he's doing battle.

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Speaker 3: He can hear it. He can real ti chi master

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Speaker 3: that guy. But but honorary consoles are important because they

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Speaker 3: can often if they're by the book, if they're doing

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Speaker 3: the right thing, they can often work in regions where

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Speaker 3: there is no official embassy right enemy states, there is

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Speaker 3: no official consulate, frozen relations and you have citizens from

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Speaker 3: your home country, the nationals living in that place. If

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Speaker 3: you can't get the DOS Department of State to advocate

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Speaker 3: for them, then you need to fix it. So an

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Speaker 3: honorary consulate is sometimes a ceremonial position and some times

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Speaker 3: it's a fixer. It's a person who gets stuff done.

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Speaker 3: And this is an old idea. As we said, you know,

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Speaker 3: back in earlier evenings, city states empires, they relied on

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Speaker 3: local individuals. The Levats had this right Eurasia Western Europe

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Speaker 3: figured out how to weaponize it, kind of like the

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Speaker 3: ancient art of assassination. Both continue today, shadow diplomacy and

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Speaker 3: what do we call it now? Targeted targeted killings? Oh

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Speaker 3: say advertising? Similar? Yeah, targeted advertising. I like that isn't

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Speaker 3: that funny too? Though?

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Speaker 4: How the term diplomatic has kind of come I mean,

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Speaker 4: I guess it always has meantphis but to say something

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Speaker 4: in a nice way as not to piss somebody off,

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Speaker 4: but also to be kind of stern about it, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: it's it's sort of a skill having, you know, the

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Speaker 4: ability to negotiate in these ways and sort of sweet

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Speaker 4: talk a little bit. But to your point, Ben, the

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Speaker 4: weaponization this whole system is really what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 4: So the folks that we're talking about the Jedi, for

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Speaker 4: all intents and purposes from the boring.

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Speaker 3: Star Wars movies.

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Speaker 4: Let's just be real, the one about the trade embargoes

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Speaker 4: and with the weird alien guys at the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Those those were a little bit dull.

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Speaker 4: But whatever, we can enjoy Star Wars, however, we wish the.

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Speaker 3: Jedi or boring.

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Speaker 4: No. I think the movies, the later movies are the

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Speaker 4: prequels where it was really really focused on trade wars

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Speaker 4: and all of this diplomatic stuff.

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Speaker 3: That stuff was pretty boring.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now we need to go back and watch them

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Speaker 2: with a keen eye.

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Speaker 4: I guess you're probably right. Maybe they've aged interestingly. But again,

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Speaker 4: for the purposes of this discussion, these are our Jedi,

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Speaker 4: these diplomats. They don't necessarily have mind control powers, but

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Speaker 4: we're not talking about them right now.

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Speaker 3: We are talking about more of the Sith Lord.

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Speaker 4: Versions, right the chaotic, evil versions of these diplomats, the

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Speaker 4: so called rogue diplomats who are able to leverage these

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Speaker 4: communicays in carefully calculated, many times untraceable actions in order

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Speaker 4: to manipulate the machinations of government and potentially advance absolutely

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Speaker 4: egregious criminal activities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Another comparison that is unfortunately timely would be to

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Speaker 3: consider US nuclear submarines some of the most dangerous vessels

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Speaker 3: on the human planet. They're dangerous because the enemy forces

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Speaker 3: never know what they're up to or where they're at.

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Speaker 3: Think about it, guys, right now, think about Hormuz. You know,

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Speaker 3: a nuclear sub can slip across borders, and just so,

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Speaker 3: a shadow diplomat can bypass a lot of formal diplomatic rules.

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Speaker 3: They can avoid public scrutiny, as Matt was saying, they

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Speaker 3: can get a job done without tripping the wrong wires.

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Speaker 3: A lot of these folks have previously held rules in

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Speaker 3: the international sphere, but now they're yeah, you know, retired.

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Speaker 3: This is a funny part, darkly funny, gallows humor funny.

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Speaker 3: Under certain circumstances, these individuals, they will always be described

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Speaker 3: as individuals by their proponents. They enjoy the benefits of

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Speaker 3: an official diplomat or console, but they don't have to

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Speaker 3: follow all the rules. We're talking about limited immunity. One

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Speaker 3: of our show's favorite things diplomatic pouches. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: diplomatic containers. You can't search my stuff, TSA, here's my

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Speaker 3: little badge.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean it's not for nothing that the idea

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Speaker 4: of these rogue diplomats is often used as like plot

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Speaker 4: devices and like spy thrillers and things. And typically when

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Speaker 4: you have a character in one of these types of

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Speaker 4: movies that's shown to be a diplomat, they're often sketchy.

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Speaker 3: That's sort of like the vibe of how these roles.

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Speaker 4: Have kind of devolved to the point where it's sort

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Speaker 4: of infected the you know, pop cultural zeitgeist in a way.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, guys, Just to take it back to Jake Sullivan,

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Speaker 2: former National Security Advisor. Interestingly enough, he got out of

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Speaker 2: the game, the official game as President Trump came into office.

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Speaker 2: Then he went over to the Harvard Kennedy School to

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Speaker 2: become a member of the faculty. Guess what his official

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Speaker 2: position is, guys.

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Speaker 3: What's his official position, Matt He is.

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Speaker 2: The Kissinger Professor of the Practice of state Craft and

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Speaker 2: World Order.

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Speaker 3: Oh, no comment.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, that is an ironic title, if ever there was one.

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Speaker 2: So now he's a professor, right, and in state Craft

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Speaker 2: and World Order. So you just I'm not saying that's

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Speaker 2: the sith Lord.

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Speaker 3: That's what that title is. That's what that means.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying, this guy would be perfect to just

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Speaker 2: you know, slip into another country on official business for

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Speaker 2: Harvard and have.

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Speaker 3: Talks and everybody's doing their best. That's very diplomatic. Thank you,

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Speaker 3: thank you. The benefits of this kind of secondary system

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Speaker 3: are clear right now here in the English speaking world.

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Speaker 3: The term shadow already has some negative quantitations. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: let's remember there are things in the UK, like the

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Speaker 3: shadow Parliament that just means the party that doesn't control

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Speaker 3: that weird archipelago right now, they have their own system

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Speaker 3: ready and waiting, so they can jump in if they

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Speaker 3: ever get whatever passes for voting in that strange land.

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Speaker 3: This secondary system, what we call shadow diplomacy, is therefore

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Speaker 3: not inherently evil. However, it is ripe for corruption. We

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Speaker 3: mentioned our hypothetical Vienna example early right, and I love

434
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 3: the Sullivan episodes there as well, or the Sullivan anecdotes,

435
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: because a lot of stuff happens in this way. It's

436
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: not you know, it's not a big paparazzi ridden soare

437
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: or gala or big conference. It's a couple of folks

438
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 3: probably in not the most popular cafe or as said earlier,

439
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: a bar, just having a polite conversation, you know, from

440
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: far enough away from across the room. These guys may

441
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: look like just strangers, and it just happens that one

442
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: of them has some news, maybe some photographs, and maybe

443
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: a proposition. That hypothetical situation we built in our previous

444
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: episodes is based in fact, and it is based on

445
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: situations that occur more often than the public would assume,

446
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 3: at least until a twenty twenty two Pro public investigation

447
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: along with the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, Oh just

448
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: say the name, We hope you folks are okay. ICIJ

449
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: Pro PUBLICA, thank you for your work. Please be safe,

450
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: please please please be safe.

451
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 4: And we're talking one hundred and sixty different journalists from

452
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 4: across the globe.

453
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 3: REPUBLICA does great work.

454
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 4: And they, you know, really do kind of enlist some

455
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 4: of the best folks out there do investigative journalism. And

456
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: the piece begins by stating that the media and governments

457
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 4: quote around the world have four years described isolated incidents

458
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 4: of criminal behavior and other misconduct bends doing the fingers,

459
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 4: you know, the ones could be one of two fingers

460
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: among so called honorary consoles. The honorary also just kind

461
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 4: of by its very nature, just means you didn't really

462
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 4: kind of I don't know, I mean, but then again,

463
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: it also sort of means that you earned it by

464
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 4: your actions. That you maybe didn't go through the proper channels,

465
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 4: but you're such a baller and you've done things in

466
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 4: this field that we're just going to bestow this title

467
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 4: and all of the sweet perks that go along with

468
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: it upon you.

469
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 3: Right, thank you for your donation. Also true, also true. Yeah,

470
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 3: this investigation, we're bringing it up because it's phenomenal and

471
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: it doubtlessly got some gumshoe reporters in a little bit

472
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: of hot water. Yeah, you know, we got to bring

473
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 3: it back. It proves, along with other investigations internationally and

474
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 3: scattered about domestically, that there is a massive amount of misuse, exploitation,

475
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 3: and weaponization involved of this term we describe honorary console.

476
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,239
Speaker 3: It's it's massive. I know, we've all read it, and

477
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 3: we've read it. Launched this saying, you know, give credit

478
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: to you, Matt for saying at the end of our

479
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 3: part two on diplomatic immunity, that we had to talk

480
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 3: about this because this investigation, again it's like three years ago. Now.

481
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm tilt my hat like that.

482
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: It's three years ago now, and at the time it

483
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: identified no less than five hundred current or former honorary

484
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: councils accused of crimes, convicted of some crimes and then

485
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 3: also convicted and then getting away skirting the law. They

486
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 3: lean on some fancy language our friends at ICIJ and

487
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: sometimes instead of saying convicted or accused, they'll say embroiled

488
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 3: in controversy, I did my pants, my trousers were embroiled

489
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: in controversy. Yeah, embroiled.

490
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: It's so funny, the timid, kind of tepid language of diplomacy.

491
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: Oftentimes it's just all these stand in phrases that you know,

492
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: sort of take the sting out a little bit, but

493
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 4: not really because we kind of know what they mean.

494
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this is a whole series, by the way,

495
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: so if you ever want to go down the rabbit

496
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: hole there. I don't even know how many articles there

497
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: are that pro public put out at the time, but

498
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: there's a whole thing on specific crhymes. There's a whole

499
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: thing on the threat of what this stuff can do

500
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: to the world, and like how corruption kind of seeps

501
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: its way in through the cracks of diplomacy here and

502
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: well and specifically, how you can become one of these

503
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: honorary console shadow rogues just with a little bit of

504
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: money going through specific channels, but with private corporations that

505
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: will like offer you a position essentially to be this

506
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: thing that functions in this way. It's very creepy, very weird.

507
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 4: Well and clearly there's no elections or public you know,

508
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 4: input involved in any of this, but is it is?

509
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 4: I mean, what does it take to get one of

510
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 4: these types of posts? You have to there has to

511
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 4: be somebody within a government that bestows this upon you.

512
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 3: It's not just you know, they're not just passing them

513
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 3: out right. I have a really exciting pitch for you know.

514
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: Okay that that I said earlier and we'll do it

515
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 3: on air. Uh before we continue, We've got to say

516
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 3: that again. You're you're gonna hear a lot of disturbing

517
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: stuff as you explore with us tonight, folks, But it

518
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 3: is mission critical to understand that honorary consoles or shadow

519
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 3: diplomats do need to exist. There are there are good

520
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: apples or there are good batchers in that bag. Yeah,

521
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: a lot of them are not. We're talking about serious crimes,

522
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: you know, drug trafficking, weapons trafficking. Arms dealers are huge

523
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 3: for getting their semi consular license, so there's there's also unfortunately,

524
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: human trafficking. There's a ton of fraud. It goes up

525
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: to murder, corruption, embezzlement because they can't catch you. You're

526
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 3: in and out. Like Dennis Reynolds said, like a demon's whisper.

527
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 3: Money laundering is huge, you know. And then you get

528
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 3: to a particular concern in the West would be representatives

529
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 3: of terrorist groups. Particular concern for non US aligned countries

530
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: is going to be off the books operations by the

531
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: US or the West, but usually in the US in

532
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 3: ways that those destination countries consider to be terrorist acts.

533
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: So like everybody is ser Man is the spider Man meme.

534
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 3: At this point, they're all pointing to each other and

535
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 3: they're saying you no, you no, you no you, We're

536
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: the good guys. It's tough. It's tough. There's arrangement for

537
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: mass casualty events. We know that that's proven from Hillsbola,

538
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: out of Lebanon. Other governments are clearly in on this.

539
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 3: There is a distressing and purposeful lack of oversight as

540
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty five. If I'm recalling correctly. Still, seventy

541
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: eight countries are on record currently refusing to name the

542
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 3: people they have appointed as honorary consoles. So let's really

543
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 3: think about that. Almost eighty countries in the International Order

544
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: have been asked to name their honorary consuls. They all

545
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 3: have to name their official formal diplomatic staff, but something

546
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 3: like eighty countries at this point have been asked the

547
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 3: question and said, nah, we got other stuff to discuss.

548
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: How about the World Cup? Who's who's going to have

549
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: the World Cup this year? It's here, isn't it. Yeah

550
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: we won that one.

551
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 4: Yeah cool, I mean in Georgia, in Atlanta. I actually

552
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 4: I was so not keyed into that stuff. I just

553
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 4: found this out. Someone has told me, like to avoid

554
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 4: downtown some good to note, good note.

555
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 3: Did you get a weird off the book's note? Yeah,

556
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: it was exactly. Someone slid me a piece of paper.

557
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

558
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 3: They said you were always cool to me.

559
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 4: In Highway seventy five eighty five at all costs, which

560
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 4: is kind of just general Atlanta advice.

561
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 3: But sometimes you gotta do it. To this earlier point,

562
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: we don't want to lose it. You can find private

563
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 3: companies and proxy semi state companies and actual governments offering

564
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: to appoint you as an honorary council or a shadow

565
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: diplomat via what you will call pay to play schemes.

566
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 3: It reminds us of the Golden passports. Remember we talked

567
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 3: about that. I think we circulated amongst ourselves price points.

568
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: If you give the right countries enough money, you just

569
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 3: become a citizens.

570
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 4: Did you hear about the Trump thing that the golden

571
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 4: Green card or the gold card? Apparently it's proved to

572
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 4: be quite popular, which maybe isn't surprising, but it also

573
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 4: you've got to wonder like who's pulling up the money

574
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 4: for that, and how much oversight is it into what their.

575
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 3: Actual business is shadow citizens at that right point.

576
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking about some of these corporate interests and

577
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: then intersecting that with what we know about resource extraction

578
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: and how important that is to global politics and conflict

579
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: right and hot war. And I was looking at something

580
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: from I don't know this outlet geopolitical monitor might be bogus,

581
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: who knows. They were to talking about specifically the Taliban

582
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: and their control of Afghanistan's mineral deposits and the mining

583
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: industries across the country, and then all of the different

584
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: I would say almost corporate slash political consoles that end

585
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: up flowing through the country attempting to gain more and

586
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: more influence and then more and more control over some

587
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: of the iron and other minerals that are in the

588
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: earth there. And it's it was interesting the way it

589
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: was talked about because it was this line between corporate

590
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: and political, which is a really weird line sometimes. Well yeah, yeah,

591
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 2: I m oh yeah. Some of these groups that offer

592
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: that kind of service right where they're going to how

593
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: would you how would you put it? These consultants right

594
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: that are also sometimes.

595
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 4: Consoles another amorphist fields that that can mean a lot

596
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 4: of things a lot of people.

597
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: Well, and in the end they're all vying for control

598
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: over those natural resources without firing weapons, right, but they're

599
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 2: doing it quietly.

600
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the scariest versions of a conversational ICBM

601
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 3: is let's have a little chat just you and me,

602
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: you know. And I sound a little bit British there,

603
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 3: but they taught us how to say that. Here's the pitch.

604
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 3: We tease this pitch. If you are hearing this and

605
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 3: you're not put off by our weird Jedi sith lord comparison,

606
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: and you're not put off by Matt's excellent observation regarding

607
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: the fuzzy lines between corporations and states. We want to

608
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 3: pitch you a job pursuing to Article sixty eight of

609
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 3: the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. Yes, that's why honorary

610
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: consoles are real. The United States has a website has

611
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 3: a web page wherein you can apply to be an

612
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 3: honorary console. Was that your pitch to me? Ben from

613
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: really pitch to you? Know? You think I should try?

614
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 3: Do I qualify? Ah? Well, it's gotta make my case.

615
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 3: Somebody got you gotta come in with just a galvanizing pitch,

616
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, and a gallon of money

617
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: more than a gallon a metric. It's not always about

618
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: the money. It's about the message. Yeah, it's about the resources,

619
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. If you just go up there,

620
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: if you rock up hypothetically and say, hey, I got

621
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: a hot line on some lithium, then you might get

622
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 3: the phone call. But do do keep in mind, folks.

623
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: By virtue of applying to this, go to state dot

624
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 3: gov forward slash, honorary dash, consular dash officers Dash post.

625
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: By applying, you will likely encourage the eye of pallanteer

626
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: the eye of Sourrod. You will be on a list.

627
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 3: But hey, you know what I mean, maybe we've already

628
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 3: left the barn on that one because you're listening to

629
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 3: a show called stuff they don't want you to know.

630
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 3: How about this? How about this? What if we pause

631
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 3: and have a word from our good friends at Mackenzie

632
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: and then get to get to some specific examples of

633
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: crime and I don't know, Matt, No, maybe just some

634
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 3: stuff that we think is a little dice m and

635
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: we're back.

636
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 4: So more than thirty honorary consuls have been sanctioned by

637
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 4: various governments who who do have the ability to sanction

638
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 4: individual human people. At least nine have been provably linked

639
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 4: to terrorist groups like you mentioned Ben. Oftentimes that's hesbalah.

640
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 4: But again, we only know the ones who got caught,

641
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 4: and you know that seems to indicate there are many

642
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 4: who did not. So why don't we get right into

643
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 4: that part and the hesblah of.

644
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 3: It all, the husbla of it all. Yeah, the US

645
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 3: is on record at multiple points even up to recent years,

646
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: arguing to the international community that hebela and also North Korea,

647
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 3: the Eastern European theater are using honorary diplomatic status in

648
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: intentional and well organized ways with very very little oversight.

649
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty two, and again we're leaning on one

650
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty journalists here, the US Treasury Department sanctioned

651
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 3: to Hesbela financiers and said, hey, you're funneling money through

652
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 3: Guinea through the African nation at Guinea. And no judgment here, folks,

653
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 3: but we need to understand there are five countries that

654
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 3: sound like Guinea. There's Guiata, which is northeastern South America,

655
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 3: There's Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Equatorial Guinea, three different countries on

656
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 3: the African continent. And then of course there's Papua New

657
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 3: Guinea over north of Australia. So they're talking about Guinea,

658
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 3: regular Guinea, signature Guinea out in Africa, and this was

659
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 3: being used as a very effective way to move money

660
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: around sanctions to wash the money. Makes sense.

661
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 4: So David Asher, who is a former senior counter terrorism

662
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 4: finance advisor.

663
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 3: Which is the thing I was about to say, imagine

664
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 3: that first, imagine that first date, what do you do?

665
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am a senior after terrorism finance advisor what

666
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 4: does that becus I cannot tell you for the Department

667
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 4: of Defense, by the way, And he had.

668
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 3: This to say about the Hesbelah of at All Hesbla.

669
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 3: He said, has.

670
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 4: Realized that if they use these honorary consoles, they can

671
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 4: basically move stuff with impunity and no one is ever

672
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 4: going to bust them. You flash your diplomatic passport, no

673
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 4: questions asked.

674
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: Hey, well that's a big deal, right, So just this

675
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: we talked about those diplomatic pouches and the things you

676
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: could potentially move with them and how large they can be. Right,

677
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: if it's not just a pouch, if you imagine a

678
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: purse or a bag or something, you know, the size

679
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: that you could fit in your personal carry on or

680
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: whatever on an airplane. It could be something that you

681
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 2: are shipping like huge, probably not a shipping container, maybe,

682
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 2: though I've never yes.

683
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: No, definitely, oh yeah, do it? Yeah, okay, all right,

684
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 3: well well that's this whist.

685
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 2: But think of what you could fit into that thing.

686
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: And we know for a fact that these kinds of

687
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: things are moving through But then then if you're so

688
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: we're talking counter terrorism finance, right, how do folks who

689
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 2: seek to carry out acts of terrorism, Get those weapons

690
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 2: moved around, get the money moved around to pay for

691
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: those weapons, to pay for all the human beings that

692
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: are gonna be doing all the stuff, and their meals

693
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 2: and their housing. How do you do that? Well, potentially,

694
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 2: at least according David Asher, you use the cover of

695
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: diplomatic community.

696
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Check out our episode on freeports too,

697
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 3: remember that way. Oh Yeahanger, I'm just selling art. I'm

698
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 3: a tourist, you know what I mean. I just love this.

699
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 3: I do have to stop. Thanks to Dylan. We cut

700
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: a part of me just cackling off Mike because uh,

701
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: we do owe an apology. I'm sorry I sounded prejudiced

702
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 3: against the Swiss. I love the Swiss. We officially do

703
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: very diplomatic.

704
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: But I feel better now you do.

705
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: Great good we have. We have calmed the waters. Don't

706
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 3: get us. We love your watches. So parts of Africa

707
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 3: and the Middle East or what we call MINA right

708
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: Middle East, North Africa, but also most of the African continent, uh,

709
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 3: will be rife with allegations of shadow diplomacy. This is

710
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,919
Speaker 3: where we see our Eric princes, our Blackwaters, our Wagner Group,

711
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 3: things like that. If you thought gas station gambling was

712
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 3: a grift of friends and neighbors. Those are pennies in

713
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 3: comparison to what's happening here off the books, and as

714
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 3: we all know, Eastern Europe is another theater of intense

715
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 3: concern the current Russian government. We're not going to covey

716
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 3: on this. It's just true. The current Russian government seeks

717
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: by hook or by crooked, by carrot or by stick

718
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: to re establish control over former Soviet satellite states, and

719
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 3: they have leveraged the honorary console loophole to massive effect

720
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 3: mass effect the game mass effects are we doing references?

721
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 5: Reference never not referencing never not reference in in r

722
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 5: all right, So two again volunteer consoles to Matt's point

723
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,479
Speaker 5: in North Macedonia a few years back.

724
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 3: They got caught out. Because they're volunteers, they can create

725
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: their own offices, right, which are not consulates. They may

726
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 3: as well just be in an office park somewhere. They

727
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 3: were using those as bases for Russian propaganda campaigns to

728
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 3: persuade the public of various Eastern European nations against joining NATO,

729
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 3: the North Atlantic Tree, the organization. You know, the public

730
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 3: always says, the propaganda is not as dangerous as ballistic weapons.

731
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 3: But I think the four of us would argue propaganda

732
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: can be just as impactful, right.

733
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: I yeah, I mean the idea itself is the thing

734
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 2: that generally gets someone to pick up a weapon. If

735
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: you're talking about a resistance force or something like that. Obviously,

736
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 2: official soldiers or something are compelled by their superiors, and

737
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 2: those superiors are compelled by partly the diplomatic stuff, but

738
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 2: also you know, the resource stuff. But sorry, I'm getting

739
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: off course here. I'm just thinking about Marco Rubio, and

740
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: I can't stop thinking about him, because he's the guy

741
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: that replaced Jake Sullivan as the National Security Advisor, the

742
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 2: guy who's like having secret talks. And I'm just imagining

743
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 2: Marco Rubio, the guy that we've watched to go through

744
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 2: multiple elections, and like Marco, we said, well, no.

745
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 3: I don't know about that glasses water.

746
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: I don't want to. I don't want to insult the guy.

747
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: We've just watched him in the public sphere, you know,

748
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: be himself, attempting to win over everybody.

749
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 3: Waffling in the public eye.

750
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: But I'm just imagining him sitting across the table in

751
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: Vienna and being the guy this stuff is relying on him.

752
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 4: The man has no riz Let's just say, can we

753
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 4: at least say that he's a little awkward, doesn't seem

754
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 4: like he's got the skill set.

755
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: Again, I have nothing against the person. I just know

756
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 2: what I've.

757
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 3: Seen, right, Yeah, And that's part of the issue. We

758
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 3: only know what we have seen. We only know what

759
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: we have learned, you know. And and that's a tricky

760
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 3: thing too, because I'll I'll dovetail on that with you, Matt,

761
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 3: let's build that together. You know me. It reminds me

762
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 3: of something you said at the top of the show,

763
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 3: the reference to the OSS Office of Strategic Services. They're

764
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 3: sitting and saboteurs, similar to citizens saboteurs. These diplomats, these rubios,

765
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 3: if you will, these Sullivans, they don't have the same

766
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 3: level of oversight you expect from an official diplomat. Right, Sullivan,

767
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: functioning in his outlined role, the role for which he

768
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 3: gets paid, is very different from some of the exercises

769
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 3: and adventures he took abroad. He was technically a tourist

770
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 3: in some of these things, just having conversations. And part

771
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 3: of this is due to the murky electricity of functioning

772
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 3: at that depth. But the more important thing is governments

773
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 3: who provide you this honorary console position, hon or off

774
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 3: the books, because sometimes it's not on paper. Just to

775
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 3: be clear, they always want an arms length of what

776
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 3: we call plausible deniability. So let's say you've got a

777
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 3: guy and your guy doing dirt, right, he's supposed to

778
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 3: have some conversations, maybe move some money, maybe move some weapons,

779
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,399
Speaker 3: maybe get a couple of high value individuals to and

780
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 3: fro across a border, and then you get caught, and

781
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 3: then you can have this superpower as a country, and

782
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 3: you can go back to the country that caught you

783
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,240
Speaker 3: in the cookie jar, and you can say, what weapons

784
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,919
Speaker 3: trafficking you're telling me, the honorable Reverend Jeremiah run Gun

785
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 3: Sith is selling weapons to terrorists. He's also not actually

786
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 3: a reverend Holy Cheapers run Guns. No, that guy inane

787
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 3: he was at my cousin's wedding. Well, we're as surprised

788
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 3: as you. We did not even know his real name.

789
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 3: Now that sounds like a made up example.

790
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, But there are statements from like official statements

791
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: from countries that discuss just how little the state has

792
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: to do with the stuff that they're honorary and not honorary.

793
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 3: What's the opposite of honorary official podcaster? Well, you know,

794
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 3: it would be something something to do with like being shamed.

795
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 2: I oh, dishonorable console be admonished. Yeah, sure, for sure,

796
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: I were sind by minutes and give them to the dishonorable.

797
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 3: Yes, I remember when we had that phase. For gosh,

798
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 3: must have been a year where where we started to say,

799
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 3: I yield my time to each other. We did say

800
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 3: that a little bit.

801
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what, there's something kind of diplomatic and

802
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 4: gentlemanly about that, and I yield my time.

803
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 2: Got Speaking of Spain and dishonor, did you hear about

804
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 2: the recent trend in Barcelona of folks running through uh

805
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: with squirt guns, with water guns and spraying all all

806
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 2: the tourists beautiful cafes.

807
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 3: I've heard about that. Yeah, and I persuade by your Cathia.

808
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,879
Speaker 3: There's videos of it. Actually, no, wait a minute, Oh

809
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 3: you know what.

810
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 4: It's a sequence that happens in the White Lotus in

811
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 4: Thailand where that show takes place.

812
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 3: There's literally a very similar.

813
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 4: Thing to exactly what you're describing, and they have to

814
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 4: run away from the locals who are totally punking them

815
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 4: with squirt guns.

816
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 3: So this must be a global phenomenon. Western Europe is

817
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 3: not reacting well to what they see as over tourism.

818
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: Agree, Yeah, well there's I didn't know anything about it,

819
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 2: and as a young kid who rode through Barcelona and

820
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: hung out in those cafes, I feel terrible, but.

821
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just there.

822
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 4: I didn't get squirt gunned, thankfully, and I tried to

823
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 4: always when I'm traveling not be a dick, of course,

824
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 4: but yeah, for sure.

825
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 2: Well I'm sorry to do this thing on the side here,

826
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 2: but it's like just knowing that the amount of rent

827
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: that you have to pay or that is being offered

828
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 2: there that is so high for the tourists to come

829
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 2: through in rent an apartment for a week or two

830
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,439
Speaker 2: weeks or whatever, is reducing the ability for human beings

831
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 2: that actually live there in Barcelona to be able to

832
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: afford rent. It's crazy.

833
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's happening, and there is validity

834
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 3: to the issue. And right, you know, we're not the

835
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 3: Tourism Board of Spain officially.

836
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 2: But what do they have to say about this whole thing.

837
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 3: Well, one time back in twenty nineteen, the Government of

838
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 3: Spain said consuls act completely autonomously and are not controlled

839
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 3: by this state they represent. The Spanish government has no

840
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 3: chance of intervening in their affairs.

841
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: No chances.

842
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 3: Dylan beat me. What the fuck? Like, why would you?

843
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 3: Why would you say that? You know what I mean?

844
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 3: That's like the president of the United States. I don't

845
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 3: care about the politics on this one. That's like the

846
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 3: President of the United States saying, hey, guys, wants the

847
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 3: navy like gets out of site from the shore. We

848
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,720
Speaker 3: don't know what they do, you know what I mean. Crazy,

849
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 3: They're just a couple of wild boys on a boat.

850
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 2: It's I'm a magic of these video games where you

851
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: just summon a creature and then it kind of just

852
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 2: acts on its own. However it's gonna act, and then

853
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: Spinch is over there, going all right, you're a console.

854
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: Oh, oh my god? How long does this summon last? Yeah?

855
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 3: Make no mistake though. This plausible deniability is exactly why

856
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 3: this practice exists. It occurs also in Asia, in Myanmar,

857
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 3: in the international black Hole of Laos. Also our friends

858
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 3: in Yongyang we discussed previously. It's kind of like in

859
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,760
Speaker 3: that theater. It's kind of like the Shenanigans in Eastern Europe.

860
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 3: How Russia has orchestrated these things with these three Asian

861
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 3: countries widely suspected of being operated as proxies for factions

862
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 3: of the Chinese government. It doesn't stop there. You know,

863
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 3: the shadow diplomats, Sith and Jedi alike, they're all around

864
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 3: the globe. This is old beings. It's an open secret.

865
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 3: It goes past. You know, we always talk about human stuff,

866
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 3: and we usually have to talk about just the Six continents.

867
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 3: Shadow diplomacy goes to the Seventh Continent, it goes to Antarctica,

868
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 3: it goes to outer space. Think about it. We got

869
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 3: a small population on the Iss, they're international. We got

870
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 3: small pockets of populations in different research facilities in Antarctica.

871
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 3: Are they are functioning in some way similar to shadow diplomats?

872
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 3: They simply have to, Oh for sure.

873
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 2: We've got a Japanese car maker rolling through and producing

874
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 2: the best reusable rocket prototype that has existed in.

875
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 3: A long time, Sala Honda.

876
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, SpaceX is blowing theirs up. Like as they're testing.

877
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: There's gonna be some weird talks in back room chats

878
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 2: with you know, official spacefaring private corporations and state run

879
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 2: space stuff.

880
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And if you can't make it to Vienna,

881
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 3: meet us at Dave Andbusters. We'll have a little chat.

882
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, you're like the main one. No, we've outlined

883
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: the primary benefits, issues and consequences of this dangerous game,

884
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 3: and we have dogged rightly so on some cartoonishly heinous villains.

885
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: It's our remit. But please, folks, fellow conspiracy realists, lest

886
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 3: you assume we are blinded by the American dream, please

887
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 3: remember Western Europe, the British and the French in particular,

888
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 3: practically invented this stuff. The United States learned it from

889
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 3: them and is still catching up. The US currently has,

890
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 3: or had, It's a vast roster of these off the

891
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 3: books individuals functioning in some version of this capacity, dotting

892
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 3: the sheep's wool or the big leaf of something like

893
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 3: diplomacy and puppeteering chaos abroad. The entire time, those South

894
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 3: American governments did not fall by themselves. I don't know

895
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 3: how much we want to say about that.

896
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: Well, we also had the Jedi versions, right, we had.

897
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 2: We had certain very influential chefs who are on television

898
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: at the time who would roll through and do positive

899
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 2: stuff and just nudge someone a little bit because they

900
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: were a fan. Like there's good stuff and horrifying things.

901
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: As you said, with the fall of many A government

902
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 2: and the coup, coup after coup after coup, there's also

903
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 2: this other thing that happens. And I wonder if this

904
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: happens with countries across the world, and it is not

905
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: just a US thing, but the I think it is

906
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 2: shadow diplomacy when there's a changing of the guard between

907
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 2: elected officials, like let's say a president or or a

908
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 2: prime minister, the moment or the time between the president

909
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: who is going out of office, that lame duck presidency

910
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 2: thing that occurs with all elected officials right the time

911
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 2: before the new guy comes in. How do we categorize

912
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 2: the back channeling. Let's say people traveling tomorrow lago and

913
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 2: meeting with elect President elect Trump while Biden is still

914
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: officially the acting president. Is that shadow diplomacy or is

915
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 2: that just a It's kind of a weird gray area

916
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: to me.

917
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 3: It depends upon who is representing whom in those conversations. So,

918
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 3: for instance, if it is just to spend this out

919
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 3: loose rubric would be if it is a if it

920
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 3: is like Noel Brown, the owner of NOL what company

921
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 3: do you own? I think it's a synth company? Oh sure,

922
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 3: why not? I like Loose Rubric.

923
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 4: By the way, can I just say, can I steal

924
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 4: that from my scenth company, Loose Rubric Synths.

925
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 3: So Noel Brown, the owner of Loose Rubric Synths based

926
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 3: in Augusta, Georgia. Right, a US company goes down to

927
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 3: mar A Lago or what have you to speak with

928
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 3: the President elect, then that would not be shadow diplomacy.

929
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 3: That would be more like lobbying. However, if Noel Brown,

930
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 3: the founder of Loose Rubric Synths, is representing a foreign

931
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 3: power that maybe gave him the seed capital to start

932
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 3: this legendary musical empire, right, then he might be speaking

933
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 3: on behalf of another country, another operator. So to your

934
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,919
Speaker 3: point again about the lines getting murky, and Noel, I'm

935
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 3: sorry that I implied you were acting treasonously. You have nine.

936
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, Ben. I appreciate the diplomatic pass.

937
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 3: And I'm a fan of Loose Rubric. The other one

938
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 3: I made it up, man, I stole it from you.

939
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 3: Fifteen fifteen NOL Sensha does that answer the question does

940
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 3: that get us?

941
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 2: I maybe I'm just I think it's just tough for

942
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 2: me to understand sometimes with with those times in between

943
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 2: power shifts, where talks are happening that are going to

944
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 2: happen and will happen when that new person is in

945
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 2: power officially, but it's almost like setting the stage for

946
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 2: official diplomatic stuff with shadow diplomacy.

947
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Yeah, it's the interim, right, It's that

948
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 3: liminal space that's where you want to push to position

949
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 3: yourself on the curve. For instance, We're going to have

950
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 3: an episode in the near future, god willing, about who

951
01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 3: really controls the far right of Japan. This stuff gets interesting.

952
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 3: I actually don't know if we'll be able to do

953
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 3: that episode, but we do have to say this. The

954
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 3: United States is no better, no in no way unique,

955
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 3: uh in no way streets ahead of any other country

956
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 3: morally speaking, ethically speaking, everyone does this, just like targeted

957
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 3: killings or assassinations. Here in the States, we use our

958
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 3: own little utility belt of euphemisms. Our folks are out

959
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 3: there right now, you know, and the morrow Lagos abroad

960
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 3: right during those uh, those interims between passage of power

961
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 3: and ruling and The way we will talk about it

962
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 3: is the phrases like advancing American interest, not advancing democracy,

963
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 3: not advancing human rights, Advancing American interest.

964
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 4: Interests being typically a stand in for business, Yes, sir,

965
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 4: yeap business and control of resources and real estate.

966
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 3: There is a reason certain foreign governments will not allow

967
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 3: tourists to take photographs in certain places. You don't have

968
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 3: to agree with things that the rulers of this human

969
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 3: world say, but you should never assume they're dumb. There's

970
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 3: a reason they do the stuff they do. I don't know, man,

971
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 3: we're recording this on Friday, twentieth of June twenty twenty five.

972
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 3: We don't know what the world will look like when

973
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 3: you hear this, folks, days, decades, centuries in the future.

974
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 3: Do you think this will still be around in centuries?

975
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 4: It seems a little odd. I mean, I just mean

976
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 4: that maybe there isn't a better way, But mustn't there be?

977
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 2: You tell us, I think there's always going to be.

978
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 2: Hopefully I pray that diplomacy is around, right, because that's

979
01:04:58,520 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 2: the only.

980
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 4: Way system as it exists, you know, like in this stage.

981
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 3: But yeah, as a concept is great.

982
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I just don't see how there could possibly

983
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 2: be an alternative unless you've got just a bunch of

984
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 2: AI representatives that hang out and you know, find the

985
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 2: most common denominator in the desires of both countries or

986
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 2: six countries together and create this little thing. Oh well,

987
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: here is clearly the option.

988
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 3: And then instead of an amber alert, your implant pings

989
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 3: with the conclusion of the AI overlords, the technicoccracy.

990
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 6: I meant to say, technocracy exists. The technicocracy will ping

991
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 6: you right in your ear grosser and grosser, shout out

992
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 6: iggy pop and they'll say uh, They'll say, hey, according

993
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 6: to this thing that we the entity smarter than you

994
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 6: have concluded. Now how no one can wear crocs? People

995
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 6: will riot?

996
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So we hope you find this active confluence

997
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 3: of confirmed conspiracy is fascinating. As illuminating as we do.

998
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 3: We want to hear about your adventures. We've talked at

999
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 3: length here, so we pass the torch to you, especially

1000
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 3: if you've ever been a tourist. Let us know what

1001
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 3: happened to the degree with which you are comfortable. You

1002
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 3: can find us on the internet. You can call us

1003
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 3: on the telephone. You can send us an email. It's true.

1004
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 4: You can find us in all those places. We exist

1005
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 4: at the handle conspiracy Stuff on XFKA, Twitter, on YouTube,

1006
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 4: or we have video content Galora for you to enjoy,

1007
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 4: and on Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where it

1008
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 4: gets crazy. I got to shuffle up the order, keep it,

1009
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,400
Speaker 4: keep it fine on Instagram and TikTok. However, where conspiracy

1010
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 4: stuff show.

1011
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1012
01:06:54,840 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 2: three STDWYTK. When you call in, you are in a

1013
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 2: three minute voicemail within there. Please give yourself a cool

1014
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 2: nickname and let us know in that message if we

1015
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 2: can use your name and message on the air. If

1016
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 2: you would not like to use your voice to contact us,

1017
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 2: but instead your words, why not instead send us a

1018
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

1019
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1020
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void

1021
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 3: writes back, quid pro quo, larice, Join us here in

1022
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 3: the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1023
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1024
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1025
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.