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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: What is it about her?

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Speaker 3: Though?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It's hard for me to understand. Is

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Speaker 2: it that she was charming? Did she wink? Did she flirts?

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Speaker 4: Cutting?

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Speaker 5: Whatever it took, and in her case, what it took

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Speaker 5: was to use her feminine wiles. It worked on men.

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Speaker 5: It didn't really work on women, but it worked on men.

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Speaker 6: Clara was one of these women that men sort of

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Speaker 6: wanted to take care of, that needed protection. And because

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Speaker 6: of this, she wasn't responsible for her actions even though

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Speaker 6: she did it, but they were trying to shield her.

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Speaker 1: Clara Phillips adored the attention of men. She had demanded

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Speaker 1: it her entire life, and now once again she had it.

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Speaker 1: Her charm could secure her release if the male jurors

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Speaker 1: in her case believed her tears on the stand, and

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Speaker 1: if that happened, many people could be in danger. Nine

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Speaker 1: men and three women locked the door behind them in

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Speaker 1: the courthouse in Los Angeles on November sixteenth, nineteen twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Clara Phillips seemed confident. Daniel Phillips says that she focused

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Speaker 1: specifically on the men, especially when she was on the stand.

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Speaker 5: I would say, that's good supposition because nine men, three women.

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Speaker 4: You knew the women were not going.

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Speaker 5: To be on her side, and all she had to

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Speaker 5: do was charm the men. She knew that this is

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Speaker 5: the way for me to get out of this is

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Speaker 5: to have a hung jury, and then they'd have to

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Speaker 5: have another trial, and keep going, keep going, keep going,

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Speaker 5: to everyone wears out.

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Speaker 1: As Clara sat in jail, Shan Armour celebrated their ninth

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Speaker 1: wedding anniversary. Had spent their entire adult lives together. Clara

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Speaker 1: and Armor were once a couple with promise their lives

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Speaker 1: could have gone so well, even without having the children

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Speaker 1: that Clara had wanted so badly. But now she watched

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Speaker 1: her husband fred about their future. Though he was mostly

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Speaker 1: focused on his future, Clara worried for him. She could

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Speaker 1: hardly think of anything else. Frankly, she really wasn't helping

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Speaker 1: her defense team by blaming Peggy Caffey in court. Clara

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Speaker 1: could have told the jury all about her medical problems,

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Speaker 1: even if they were exaggerated or more than likely made up,

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Speaker 1: and the jury didn't seem to question her honesty. There

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Speaker 1: were suspicions that her claims she had been kidnapped when

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Speaker 1: she was a child was all a lie to gain sympathy,

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Speaker 1: but that didn't seem to come up in jury deliberations,

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Speaker 1: and her family had insisted that she was traumatized by

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Speaker 1: the event, but then we know that her family was

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Speaker 1: willing to say anything to protect her. Clara's mother and

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Speaker 1: her sisters were absolutely unreliable sources. Clara was now twenty

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Speaker 1: five years old and alone. Remember that she and Armour

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Speaker 1: had gotten married back in Houston, Texas when she was

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Speaker 1: just sixteen. Their relationship had rescued Clara from an unstable childhood,

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Speaker 1: but clearly that stability hadn't lasted. The jury had so

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Speaker 1: much to consider that it was nearly overwhelming. Lawyers for

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Speaker 1: Clara Phillips claimed she suffered from something called epileptic insanity.

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Speaker 1: Alienists had used that diagnosis throughout the eighteen hundreds to

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Speaker 1: label patients, so it was well established in criminal cases,

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Speaker 1: and five forensic psychiatrists had testified that Clara was insane.

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Speaker 1: But on the stand, Clara blamed her friend Peggy Caffy

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Speaker 1: for the fatal beating of Alberta Meadows. Clara sat in

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Speaker 1: the defendant's chair day after day, acting erradically much of

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Speaker 1: the time. She shifted constantly from being a perfect lady

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Speaker 1: to being an absolute terror, depending on who was testifying.

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Speaker 1: The prosecutor argued that Clara had planned and executed the

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Speaker 1: murder with precision. It was absolutely premeditated. She bought a hammer,

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Speaker 1: she had stalked Alberta the night before. The DA accused

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Speaker 1: Clara of dragging Peggy along to serve as a scapegoat,

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Speaker 1: and the media constantly chronicled her every move. There were

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Speaker 1: no fancy forensics and no surprise witnesses, just loads of

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Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence and conflicting testimony. But jury deliberations in criminal

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Speaker 1: trials are not always simple. Actually they're rarely simple, and

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Speaker 1: first degree murder cases because the stakes are so high.

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Speaker 1: Clara's life was literally in the hands of the jury.

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Speaker 1: But author Claudeine Burnett reminds us that this trial was

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Speaker 1: even more unusual, and this just seemed unheard of back then.

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Speaker 6: It was unheard of. That was another thing that made

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Speaker 6: the case so sensational was that it was a murder

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Speaker 6: that had been so brutal, carried out not by a

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Speaker 6: man but by a woman against another woman.

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Speaker 1: To the jury's credit, they spent hours pouring over evidence

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Speaker 1: and testimony. I've spent years writing about criminal cases in history,

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Speaker 1: and during some of those murder trials, jury's returned a

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Speaker 1: verdict in less than ten minutes. Clara's jury deliberated for

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Speaker 1: twelve hours, and she sat in the courthouse much of

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Speaker 1: the time and wept. Spectators sat behind her, passing time

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Speaker 1: by knitting or smoking or gossiping.

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Speaker 2: So ultimately, what happens with the jury.

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Speaker 4: They went to the jury room.

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Speaker 5: They discounted what Clara said because it just didn't fit

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Speaker 5: the facts. And that's really what the jury was supposed

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Speaker 5: to do, is determine the facts.

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Speaker 4: Who killed Alberta Meadows.

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Speaker 6: They didn't believe Clara. They believe Peggy.

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Speaker 1: That was the easy part. Clara Phillips had killed Alberta Meadows.

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Speaker 1: The jury had no doubts about that. But was this

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Speaker 1: first degree murder? Did she plan it or was she

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Speaker 1: actually joking inside the hardware store? Did she intend to

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Speaker 1: only threaten Alberta with a hammer? Did Clara kill her

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Speaker 1: in a fit of rage? Or was Alberta ambushed?

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Speaker 5: They came to a compromise on the verdict. Originally it

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Speaker 5: was first degree murder. Other women that had killed husbands

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Speaker 5: or boyfriends and people like that in that time were

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Speaker 5: candidates for the death chamber.

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Speaker 1: It seemed straightforward. There was plenty of evidence, and there

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Speaker 1: were precedents from other cases. But there was a problem.

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Speaker 1: The jury issued several rounds of ballots every time they

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Speaker 1: were split. In fact, there were initially four votes for acquittal,

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Speaker 1: and they were certainly not from the three women. The

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Speaker 1: women on the jury were determined to not let Clara

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Speaker 1: Phillips walk away. She wasn't that charming.

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Speaker 6: The three women jurors have none of that. They just

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Speaker 6: said she did it. This is ala bluff, I guess,

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Speaker 6: because they knew women better than the men did well.

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Speaker 1: But to me, what's interesting about that is you would

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Speaker 1: think the women jurors would empathize with her more for

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Speaker 1: being the victim of a cheating husband.

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Speaker 6: I think that the women jurors might have seen through

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Speaker 6: her and seen her whole actions in the courtroom as

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Speaker 6: being something that was made up of pretense.

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Speaker 1: But writer Joan Rinner says the nine men just didn't

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Speaker 1: want to convict her. They kind of swooned over her.

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Speaker 1: One of them would later say that Clara had the

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Speaker 1: most magnetic smile he had ever seen.

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Speaker 7: Men I think found it difficult to believe that a

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Speaker 7: woman was really capable that you could actually have committed

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Speaker 7: that crime. There had to have been some other explanation.

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Speaker 7: But they reached a sort of a compromise verdict.

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Speaker 1: Daniel Phillips says that in the jury room, the women

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Speaker 1: were interested in giving her the death penalty and the

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Speaker 1: men were interested in letting her go, so the attorneys

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Speaker 1: had to get involved. The jury ultimately convicted Clara Phillips

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Speaker 1: of second degree murder. She would receive a sentence of

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Speaker 1: a minimum of ten years, maybe even life.

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Speaker 5: This was like a negotiated verdict. It gave everybody something.

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Speaker 5: It gave the folks that didn't want to see or die.

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Speaker 5: She has a chance of serving her time and coming

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Speaker 5: out and having a life. The women, you know, yes,

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Speaker 5: they wined it to see her killed. There is still

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Speaker 5: that potential that she was going to get at least

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Speaker 5: ten years, and she was going to get the potential

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Speaker 5: of having to stay in prison for the rest of

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Speaker 5: her life.

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Speaker 1: Police historian Glenn Martin says that he's not at all

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Speaker 1: surprised about this because this type of verdict still happens.

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Speaker 8: The verdicts particularly split down gender lines as it was

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Speaker 8: speaks to me of probably the social mores that the

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Speaker 8: male jurors were raised with, that we defend and care

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Speaker 8: for our women. And to this day it's difficult for

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Speaker 8: Jeris to return death verdicts for women.

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Speaker 1: Even if she beats somebody to death with a claw hammer,

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Speaker 1: it is still a difficult cell.

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Speaker 8: In a case where a murder, even as brutal as

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Speaker 8: this one has happened, that is just a tough cell

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Speaker 8: for somebody that has that ingrained is that they take

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Speaker 8: care of their women.

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Speaker 1: We've seen this type of gender bias throughout history.

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Speaker 9: Lizzie took an accent her mother forty wax saw she

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Speaker 9: gave her father forty one.

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Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden was probably the most well known example. In

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Speaker 1: eighteen ninety three, an all male jury acquitted her of

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Speaker 1: murdering her father and her stepmother. Despite a lot of

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Speaker 1: convincing evidence. The jurors noted that Lizzie appeared modest and

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Speaker 1: well bred, dressed in all black. Most historians think that

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Speaker 1: she got away with murder because the men refuse to

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Speaker 1: believe that Lizzie was strong enough or morally corrupt enough

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Speaker 1: to commit such a brutal crime. Clara Phillips's niece, Janet

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Speaker 1: Collins says her sentence in nineteen twenty two is still baffling,

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Speaker 1: almost one hundred years later.

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Speaker 10: That's weird that she could murder someone and be out

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Speaker 10: in ten years.

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Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

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Speaker 10: Something's wrong?

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Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty two, much of Los Angeles was captivated

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Speaker 1: by Clara Phillips because she seemed to eclipse a popular

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Speaker 1: perception that women should be submissive, and Clara Phillips was not,

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Speaker 1: and so sexualizing real women like Clara was problematic for

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Speaker 1: conservative America because these women became synonymous with the jazz age.

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Speaker 1: University of Texas film historian Caroline Frick says Tinseltown became

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Speaker 1: a popular target for conservatives.

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Speaker 9: Hollywood becomes the focus of let's say a national and

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Speaker 9: I would say international concern over the jazz age, over

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Speaker 9: the morals of the post World War One generation, their partying,

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Speaker 9: they're out of hand. It's the quintessential Hollywood story in

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Speaker 9: a way of that era, which is everything that is

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Speaker 9: anti Victorian in a sense, I think she is a

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Speaker 9: part of that Hollywood story of mayhem.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that Clara would have been thrilled to be

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Speaker 1: part of any Hollywood story. She had always craved the spotlight,

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Speaker 1: dreaming of being an actress and a chorus girl, and

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Speaker 1: now she'd become a celebrity criminal. In the courtroom, Clara

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Speaker 1: sat at the table near her attorneys during the reading

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Speaker 1: of the verdict, and she was clearly unnerved. She wept,

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Speaker 1: and she told reporters that she had expected to be acquitted,

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Speaker 1: but then she insisted that her attorney would immediately file

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Speaker 1: an appeal and this whole nightmare would be corrected.

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Speaker 5: Clara pretty much took it almost in stride, like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: I was hoping they'd by my story, but they didn't.

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Speaker 5: I'll come up with something else. So I didn't see

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Speaker 5: her being completely defeated. It was kind of like, well,

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Speaker 5: this is kind of one round in an overall championship fight,

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Speaker 5: and so far I'm still in the fight.

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Speaker 1: So in a way, her family's plan worked. Clara wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be executed, and she would likely be out after ten

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Speaker 1: years for good behavior, maybe even sooner. Clara was sent

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Speaker 1: to the Los Angeles County Jail to wait until her transfer.

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Speaker 1: She would serve her sentence in San Quentin State Prison

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Speaker 1: in northern California, about four hundred miles away from her home.

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Speaker 1: At first, the local jail didn't seem so bad.

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Speaker 5: Well, when she got there, she actually was kind of

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Speaker 5: positive in the respect she felt that everybody was very

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Speaker 5: happy and very jolly and was trying to make the

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Speaker 5: best of it, at least giving everyone the impression that, yeah,

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Speaker 5: it's not where I want to be, but you know,

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Speaker 5: I can live with it temporarily.

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Speaker 1: And the jail would certainly have been preferable to San Quentin.

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Speaker 1: Joan Rinner says that the infamous prison was a miserable

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Speaker 1: place for inmates, especially in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 7: It was a scary place, a scary San Quentin still

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Speaker 7: a scary place to my mind. But then it just

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Speaker 7: looked like you'd think a prison would look. It was foreboding.

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Speaker 7: I would expect it no matter what time of the year.

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Speaker 7: I would expect to drive up to the gate, have

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Speaker 7: dark clouds form over it and lightning flash, because it

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Speaker 7: just seemed like such an awful place.

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Speaker 10: And then it was.

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Speaker 7: It really was, and especially for the female prisoners.

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Speaker 1: And Clara didn't have a choice. That's where she would

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Speaker 1: live for at least ten years.

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Speaker 7: There was no women's prison in the state of California,

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Speaker 7: so all the women who were in prison were sent

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Speaker 7: to San Quentin. There was a women's wing at San Quentin,

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Speaker 7: but it was an environment just rife for abuse on

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Speaker 7: both sides, abuse of the women, guards and others, some

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Speaker 7: women trying to gain favor by using their sexuality. It

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Speaker 7: was just not a good situation. But that's where Clara

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Speaker 7: was going to go.

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Speaker 1: Who knows what would happen to her there, but it

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Speaker 1: was difficult to tell if Clara was concerned. She never

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Speaker 1: seemed angry or upset, at least not for very long.

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Speaker 1: Her attitude changed constantly. She adapted so well to new

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Speaker 1: situations that most people might struggle with, but still she

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Speaker 1: really disliked people having power over her. So she did

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Speaker 1: something very characteristic of a self serving personality, and it

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Speaker 1: seemed like a terrible idea, even by Clara's standards. She

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Speaker 1: sought advice from someone in very very similar circumstances.

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Speaker 5: She had a jailmate who was a murderous The lazy's

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Speaker 5: name was Open Jane. She I think was waiting on

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Speaker 5: her second trial to begin. Her first trial ended up

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Speaker 5: in a hung jury. I'm sure she got some pointers

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Speaker 5: from her.

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Speaker 1: Madeleine Obenchain and Clara Phillips had so much in common.

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Speaker 1: About a year earlier, oben Chin became a newspaper sensation

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Speaker 1: during her multiple murder trials. Yeah, she had several of them,

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Speaker 1: five in all. Oben Chain was in the middle of

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Speaker 1: trial number three when she and Clara became cellmates in

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Speaker 1: the La County jail. Police accused Madeleine of murdering her

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Speaker 1: fiance by convincing another man to shoot him with a shotgun.

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Speaker 1: And it was all because John Belton Kennedy kept waffling

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Speaker 1: over whether to marry her because his mother hated her,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds like for good reason. He was spineless,

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Speaker 1: and Madeleine was furious. The media dubbed her a vamp,

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Speaker 1: a devious woman with absolutely no morals, But Madeleine's good

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Speaker 1: looks and charm had managed to hang every jury because

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Speaker 1: they were all filled with love struck men. And now

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Speaker 1: Madeleine was locked away with Clara Phillips.

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Speaker 5: She also had missus Obenchain sitting there in the sale

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Speaker 5: with her.

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Speaker 1: Givener point, it was so strange to see them both

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Speaker 1: in the same cell, two women who had seduced American

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Speaker 1: newspaper readers with their looks and their charm. Spectators lined

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Speaker 1: up outside the jail to meet them, and some of

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Speaker 1: their biggest fans were other women. One fan appeared in

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Speaker 1: the jail cell near them and smiled. She had received

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Speaker 1: a fifteen dollars speeding ticket the day before. The judge

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Speaker 1: gave her the option to either pay the fine or

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Speaker 1: spend fifteen days in jail. She chose jail. She said,

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Speaker 1: I haven't anything to do, and I have always wanted

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Speaker 1: to meet missus oben Chain and Missus Phillips, So I

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Speaker 1: guess I'll take the fifteen days.

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Speaker 10: Wow.

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Speaker 1: That was the power of their celebrity status, and part

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Speaker 1: of that status came from the media's portrayal of dangerous

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Speaker 1: women in the nineteen twenties. Kathy Fullercili is a professor

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Speaker 1: of media studies at the University of Texas.

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Speaker 3: Going back into the nineteen teens, in the nineteen twenties,

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Speaker 3: what was the media output regarding women who had mental instability?

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Speaker 2: I mean, what were the kind of things we were seeing?

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Speaker 2: How were they portrayed?

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Speaker 11: Many times mental instability was connected or woven into depictions

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Speaker 11: of bad sexuality, dangerous sexuality. Theda Bearra, the vamp who

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Speaker 11: burst on the scene in film in nineteen fourteen, represented

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00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 11: pure sexual desire, but we would recognize her as very

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Speaker 11: goth today. She was very much associated with exoticism and death,

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Speaker 11: and she would attack men and suck all their life

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Speaker 11: out of them like a spider and leave them dead

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Speaker 11: by the side of the road. So it was justifying

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Speaker 11: why she had to be gotten rid of why she

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Speaker 11: needed to be killed or banished.

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Speaker 1: Are there ramifications for these for us in a society,

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Speaker 1: for these types of images coming out.

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Speaker 11: I think it justifies things like pull decisions. The Creole

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00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,120
Speaker 11: Committee stops any circulation of birth control information, so there

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Speaker 11: is much women belonging back in home. The outrage about

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Speaker 11: these women becomes a target that lets very conservative religious

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Speaker 11: groups ban dancing, really restrict the actions of the young

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Speaker 11: women in their groups. So yes, I think it does

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Speaker 11: have public ramifications increasing danger to women in the public

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Speaker 11: that if you are acting one way, or dressed one way,

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Speaker 11: or in a public in one way, those who disagree

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Speaker 11: can say you must be punished for it.

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Speaker 1: Madeline and Clara represented the dangerous, beautiful fem fatales of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, but they were real women and the

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Speaker 1: men and women who adored them were willing to help

314
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Speaker 1: them just to be closer to them. But the two

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Speaker 1: killers viewed all of the people in their lives as dispensable.

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Speaker 1: Madeline and Clara talked about the men in their lives,

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Speaker 1: their friends and plans. So once again, Clara Phillips began

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Speaker 1: to scheme. She refused to go to San Quentin, which

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Speaker 1: sounded like a horrible place. She resolved to escape before

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Speaker 1: her transfer. How does she even communicate that she wants

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Speaker 1: this to happen.

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Speaker 2: Because of the visitors?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the visitors. She had lots of visitors. Most of

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Speaker 5: the visits were not supervised.

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Speaker 2: Why were they supplied?

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: It could have just been anything from general incompetence to

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Speaker 5: the fact that they looked upon the good side of Clara,

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Speaker 5: not what she had done. I think she was planning

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Speaker 5: all this while keeping a happy face. She played a

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Speaker 5: lot of people, including the jailers, be it you know,

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Speaker 5: the matrons or even the turnkeys.

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Speaker 1: That seems ridiculous. How could a jail allow unsupervised visits

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Speaker 1: to not just one manipulative killer, but two of them.

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Speaker 5: She was making some promises as to her virtue. Also

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Speaker 5: her alone ledged holdings that she had assets oil land,

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Speaker 5: possibly using the Melon family as a way to say, hey,

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Speaker 5: I'm a member of the Melon family. Will compensate you

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Speaker 5: if you just help me get out of here.

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Speaker 1: And so for several weeks after Clara's conviction, a stream

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Speaker 1: of people came in and out of that jail.

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Speaker 4: She did it pretty quickly.

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Speaker 5: She was convicted in November, early in November, and this

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Speaker 5: happened like a month later. So everything ran pretty quickly,

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Speaker 5: and she couldn't have done it by herself.

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Speaker 4: She needed help. I think she was cunning.

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Speaker 5: Enough to be able to have all of this array

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Speaker 5: of stuff that she could use, and she would just

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Speaker 5: use whatever worked for that particular situation. But she always

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Speaker 5: had more than one option on how to get someone

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Speaker 5: to do what she wanted them to do.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened. Author Claudeine Burnett says that

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Speaker 1: one of those visitors secretly left something.

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Speaker 6: Behind somebody had smuggled in a file.

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Speaker 1: Much of the story sounds like it was lifted from

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Speaker 1: a B movie script, particularly this next part. Clara received

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Speaker 1: a metal file to saw the bars on her cell's window.

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Speaker 6: Clara went ahead and worked on the bars at the

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Speaker 6: prison and was able to go ahead and fool the

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Speaker 6: prison guards because she used chewing gum to put the

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Speaker 6: bars back.

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Speaker 1: Together, seriously chewing gum to hold the cut bars together.

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Speaker 1: And could a petite woman really saw her way through

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Speaker 1: thick bars on a window. Daniel Phillips says, yeah, maybe,

365
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Speaker 1: at least inside the La County jail in nineteen twenty two.

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Speaker 5: In those days, most jails had steel bars, but not

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Speaker 5: the kind of quality steel that hacksall couldn't get through.

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Speaker 2: So she finally gets the bars now and then.

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Speaker 5: What December fifth, nineteen twenty two, She got the bars off,

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Speaker 5: was able to get herself through the opening, and there

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Speaker 5: was someone above her since her cell was on the

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Speaker 5: top floor, they were on the roof of the jail

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Speaker 5: to reach down and pull her up to the roof

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Speaker 5: of the jail. And then she went through a series

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Speaker 5: of roof tops of buildings that were adjacent to the

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Speaker 5: jail until they got to the ground floor. And I

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Speaker 5: think part of the ground floor was getting through like

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Speaker 5: a trapdoor into one of the buildings to come out

379
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Speaker 5: either through the back or the front, until she could

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Speaker 5: get in that car that was going to take her away.

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Speaker 7: There's a wonderful, nifty little picture in one or more

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Speaker 7: of the newspapers that show her alleged route as she

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Speaker 7: makes her way across the roof of the building and

384
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Speaker 7: then down along the side, and she supposedly escapes.

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Speaker 1: Joan Renner seems skeptical because she thinks this version is

386
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Speaker 1: more fiction than fact. Steel bars and chewing gum seem silly,

387
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Speaker 1: and author Claudeine Burnett agrees.

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Speaker 6: There was also quite a drop from where her prison

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00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 6: was down to the ground, too, which also makes that

390
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 6: story suspicious. What came out later was that the family

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Speaker 6: had gone ahead and paid a prison guard to release her.

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Speaker 1: Who knows. But none of that really mattered, because on

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Speaker 1: December fifth, nineteen twenty two, Clara Phillips vanished. Glenn Martin

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Speaker 1: says that the police had no clues to her location

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Speaker 1: and no help from witnesses.

396
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Speaker 8: Clara wasn't in jail alone. Somebody heard, somebody saw, somebody knew,

397
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Speaker 8: and then they remained mute about it, not having anybody

398
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Speaker 8: ratch out as equally as interesting.

399
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Speaker 1: Catherine Ramslin is a forensic psychology professor and an author

400
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: who has spent her career interviewing murderers, including Dennis Rader,

401
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: better known as bt K. You might have heard my

402
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: interview with her on Wicked Words. Ramsland says that in

403
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,239
Speaker 1: Raider's case, he was motivated by violent fantasies, but it

404
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: was also clear that he had a lust for fame

405
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: and power. He sent disturbing letters to the police and

406
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Speaker 1: the media. Now there's well established research on Maisie psychopaths,

407
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: but Ramsland says that female psychopaths like Clara Phillips are

408
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: an enigma even to experts.

409
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 12: Well. The difficulty with categorizing a female psychopath is that

410
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 12: we haven't done that much research on them, and the

411
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 12: tools we've used have were developed from male psychopaths, with

412
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Speaker 12: the mistaken idea that anything that comes out of research

413
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 12: with males will apply equally to females.

414
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Speaker 1: Doctor Craig Newman says that his research shows that there

415
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: might be more similarities than differences, but there are definitely differences.

416
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Speaker 13: Women with psychopathic features propensities may tend to be higher

417
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 13: on manipulative features, and males may tend to be higher

418
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Speaker 13: on the more disregulated, the impulsive, aggressive sorts of components.

419
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Speaker 13: Seventy percent of the female offenders were the manipulator type

420
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Speaker 13: and only a small percentage were the aggressive subtype.

421
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Speaker 1: For female psychopaths, manipulation is key. It seems to be

422
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: their main form of achieving their goal, whatever that is,

423
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: and many times women find out early in life that

424
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: they can get their way without being violent. Control is

425
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: crucial to someone with psychopathy. It can be all consuming,

426
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: regardless of the danger it puts them in. We now

427
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: know more about women with psychopathy, but experts say there's

428
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: still so much to learn.

429
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Speaker 12: So now we have to rethink the idea of how

430
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 12: a female psychopath might operate. And it turns out that

431
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 12: a lot of women who are diagnosed with borderline personality

432
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 12: disorder might in fact be psychopaths. But we've tended to

433
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 12: think of borderline as being a female disorder, and we

434
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 12: tend not to think of females being psychopath And I

435
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 12: think this has a lot to do with many of

436
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 12: the theories are developed by males who really did not

437
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 12: want to think about women being psychopathic.

438
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: So that means that there are more female psychopaths out

439
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 1: there than we thought. But doctor Ramslan says that society

440
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: has a difficult time believing that Eileen Warnos might be

441
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: a good example. The serial killer murdered seven men between

442
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety in Florida before being

443
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: convicted and then executed in two thousand and two. Eileen

444
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: Warnos definitely had psychopathic traits, but the Hollywood movie about

445
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: her life made it appear that she was violent because

446
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: of her circumstances, not her psychopathy, and that actually irritates

447
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: doctor Ramseln.

448
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 12: They gave her every out that they would never give

449
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 12: to a male psychopath serial Kellery. In a way, I

450
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 12: thought it was unfair, first of all, to women to

451
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 12: believe that they are in some way can't rise to

452
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 12: some kind of criminality that males can rise to. I

453
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 12: think they absolutely can and have. But when I saw

454
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 12: that movie, it was clear to me people just don't

455
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 12: want to accept that a woman can be just a cohearted, remorseless,

456
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 12: angry killer. And she even said that about herself. She said,

457
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 12: if you let me out, I'll do it again.

458
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: Clara Phillips certainly proved that women can be just as

459
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: violent as men. And now she was in the wind.

460
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: Where had she gone and what was she planning?

461
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 5: Jails are always big about doing head counts at different

462
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 5: times of the day. I think the la jail was

463
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 5: a jail that didn't vary it, so it's easy to gauge, okay,

464
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 5: between this time and this time, I don't have anyone

465
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 5: watching me. She probably went between bedcheck and the morning

466
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 5: when the folks came around.

467
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: And just like that, she was gone. The escape of

468
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: Clara Phillips in December of nineteen twenty two was so

469
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: well planned out that her family had to have been involved.

470
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: Daniel Phillips has no doubts about that.

471
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 5: She probably had a lot of tentacles out to a

472
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 5: lot of people, and she was kind of having layers

473
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 5: of people involved in the process, including her sisters. I've

474
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 5: got to feel that the sisters were actively involved in this,

475
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 5: at least Ola and Adam for that matter.

476
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: Ola May was Clara's older sister, and soon she would

477
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 1: be her partner in crime literally. Of course, one person

478
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: who is now under scrutiny once again was Armor. The

479
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: sheriff immediately tracked him down and stuck him in his office,

480
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: and a sheriff's office is never a good place for

481
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: a conman to be. But when they looked at the evidence,

482
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: Armor seemed to be in the clear.

483
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 5: I still don't have any evidence of where Armor was

484
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 5: that involved in it. He may have supplied some money

485
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 5: so that people that would actually be helping her escape

486
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 5: could be paid. He was right on the edge of it.

487
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 5: In my opinion. He wasn't one of the guys that

488
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 5: was up there helping her out of the cell and

489
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 5: working her down, helping her get to the car and

490
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 5: leaving the jail.

491
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: I think that much of this would have been difficult

492
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: to do without Armor, that seems clear. But he had

493
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: been the one who initially turned Clara in, why would

494
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: he help her escape now?

495
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 6: I think that Armor felt an awful lot of guilt

496
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 6: because of the murder, because of what he had done

497
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 6: to his wife.

498
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 5: I think Armor may have been looking for a way

499
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 5: to atone for turning her in when he had put

500
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 5: her on the train to get her out, So it

501
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 5: could have been some guilty feelings. But I think, on

502
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 5: the other hand, if he looked at it as a

503
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 5: self preservation, her being in the lime night was doing

504
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 5: him no good and it would be better for her

505
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 5: to all of a sudden disappear and be able to

506
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 5: kind of go and start a new life.

507
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: One person who was surprised about Armour's involvement with Clara's

508
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: jail break is his niece Collins.

509
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: She had all this help. Different man armor was involved.

510
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 10: He was involved in getting her out of prison. What

511
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 10: a slap ball. So you didn't know that though I

512
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 10: did not know.

513
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a some of There is a

514
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: good reason why people keep things from families, I guess.

515
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: But you couldn't trust him, no, no, And if you

516
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 3: can't truse somebody in your family, well was.

517
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 10: There to trust? He disappeared and then all of a

518
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 10: sudden he appeared. I mean he just I think the

519
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 10: term blowhard pretty well described him.

520
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: But not all of Clara's associates were happy about her escape.

521
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 6: And when Clara escaped from prison, Peggy found out, she

522
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 6: was terrified. She left a note for her husband that

523
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 6: said I'll be back in an hour, but she didn't

524
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 6: come home. She instead got on a train and went

525
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 6: as far away as she could, back to Pennsylvania, to

526
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 6: be as far away from Clara and possibly Clara's revenge.

527
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: Peggy Caffy was right to be frightened. Clara had threatened

528
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: her life several times. Even in court. Clara despised Peggy

529
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: just about as much as she hated Alberta.

530
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 6: Peggy is the one whose testimony convicted Clara, and I

531
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 6: think that Clara was very upset at that. If Peggy

532
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 6: hadn't come forward, and if Armor hadn't come forward, Clara

533
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 6: might never have been found out because the woman's body

534
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 6: was unidentified until there telling the police what had happened.

535
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: Now, Peggy Caffy was gone too, and that's where her

536
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: story ends. The journalists who had hounded Peggy could no

537
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: longer find her. She had disappeared, and so had Clara Phillips,

538
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: with the help of at least three men. Her husband

539
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: was rolled by police, but this time Arma refused to

540
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: turn her in. He even told them that he hoped

541
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: she would never be recaptured, and then began a very

542
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: well orchestrated plan that would take Clara to two different continents,

543
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: using people all along the way. She traveled from Los

544
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: Angeles to New Orleans to Mexico.

545
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 5: No one got wise until they were able to finally

546
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 5: get into Mexico. Even then, the Mexican authorities weren't really

547
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 5: brought into the picture. They were in Mexico, I think

548
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 5: several weeks. One account said that the Mexican authorities were

549
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 5: aware that she's there, but they had no authority to

550
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 5: pick her up.

551
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: Daniel Phillips says armor mailed things to Clara while she

552
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: was in Mexico. He would send money to Galveston, Texas,

553
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: and his older sister Sadie would mail it on to Clara.

554
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 5: And actually they had my dear aunt Sadie the unknowing

555
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 5: conduit on getting stuff mailed out to wherever the place

556
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 5: was in Mexico. She did it with no ill intention

557
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 5: in the fact that this was her brother's wife and

558
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 5: there was a lot of family loyalty there, and.

559
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: There was family loyalty within the We were family too.

560
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 5: Oh, absolutely, well, that's why adam A brought some of

561
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 5: the money to Mexico when she joined her sister on

562
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 5: their continued journey from Mexico City to Vera Cruz and

563
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 5: then from there to Guatemala since Alvador. All the way

564
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 5: into Honduras.

565
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: Clara was spotted and wore as Mexico by police. They

566
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: described her as a heavily veiled woman in an automobile

567
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: on the outskirts of the city. After less than a

568
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: week in Mexico, Clara met her sister Ola May in

569
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: Honduras as Daniel Phillips told me earlier, Clara might not

570
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: have been very book smart, but she was absolutely prepared.

571
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: Ed.

572
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 5: May and Clara had Guatemalan passports. They also had the

573
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 5: wherewithal to learn to speak Spanish because they, I guess

574
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 5: realized this is where we're going to end up.

575
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 4: You know, we can't go back to America.

576
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: In the meantime, investigators in Los Angeles were scrambling to

577
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: explain to the media how one of the country's most

578
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: famous women managed to escape their jail. Daniel Phillips and

579
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: Glenn Martin say that the press seized on the story

580
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: of her escape and constantly revisited the details of the murder.

581
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 4: Every day that she was gone.

582
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 5: Made them look bad, not just the LA Police, the DA,

583
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 5: all of law enforcement, all the way up to the

584
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 5: US goverront. Everybody was getting tarred with this brush and

585
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 5: it was making everybody look bad.

586
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 4: That was an authority.

587
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 5: So whether she knew it or not, this was going

588
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 5: to work against her because that made the pursuit that

589
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 5: much more persistent, and that they were just not going

590
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 5: to let it go.

591
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: And what's happening with the American media at this.

592
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 5: Point, they are just as voracious as they were when

593
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 5: she was on trial and convicted. It just didn't let up.

594
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 5: Everybody and their mother was trying to figure out where

595
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 5: is she. They were constantly going in and doing more

596
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 5: stories that were kind of background, bringing people that may

597
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 5: not know the details up today, injecting new theories as

598
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 5: to how this was done, and if she was guilty

599
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 5: or not, was she treated fairly or not? All of

600
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 5: the angles that kept the life of this story going.

601
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 2: What do you think about the media circus that ensued.

602
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: Does that speak to Herston newspapers in nineteen twenty sensationalism media?

603
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: Why are they attracted to the story.

604
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 8: Well, I think my response would be what's changed? We

605
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 8: have just this very enduring interest in crime, particularly something

606
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 8: that is a little bit different. There is a mass

607
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 8: of humanity that has an interest in it.

608
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: Clara was traveling with them, the most important person in

609
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: her life aside from Armor and now she was living

610
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: in Honduras with Ola May, and there they stayed as

611
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: detectives in America felt more and more pressure. Clara and

612
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: Ola May lived off the money Armor and her family

613
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: were sending them. It was an incredible conspiracy.

614
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 6: They must have loved her dearly or cared about her

615
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 6: in order to help her, and I think that they

616
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 6: realized that she did commit the murder. Though they might

617
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 6: have wanted to fool themselves it had been Peggy, but

618
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 6: they also knew that this was a woman that they

619
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 6: had protected throughout her entire life, and they needed to

620
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 6: do it again.

621
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 5: Right or wrong, It is blood, blood is thicker than water,

622
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 5: all of those things that you hear all the time.

623
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 4: In their case, I think that was loyalty gone wrong.

624
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: Clara Phillips and her sister Ola May spent Christmas in

625
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two in Honduras incognito. It was such a

626
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: smart choice for a hiding place. Hondours had no extradition

627
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: treaty with the United States, so if Clara were caught,

628
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: she might actually be able to stay there and she

629
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: could always wiggle out of trouble with her charm and

630
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: perhaps a little bit of money for a bribe. Clara

631
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: knew that she had a better chance of doing that

632
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: in Central America than she did in Los Angeles.

633
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 7: They're just amazed and amused by the sightings of them worldwide.

634
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 7: She's seen everywhere from China to Europe, you name it,

635
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 7: and Clara's there.

636
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: So in less than six months, Clara Phillips had achieved

637
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: quite a lot, if you want to call it. That

638
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: she had brutally murdered a woman who was in fact

639
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: not sleeping with her husband. She tried to escape to Texas,

640
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: but was ratted out by armor. She threatened her best friend,

641
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: the only witness, and then accused her of the murder.

642
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: She convinced male jurors to give her a lighter sentence,

643
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: and then she convinced at least three men to help

644
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: her escape to Central America. Doctor Craig Newman says that

645
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: this is the model playbook for a psychopath, and it's

646
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: a playbook that Clara would continue to use.

647
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 2: This is a scary lady.

648
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 13: That's the thing about psychopathy. That's the thing about personality pathology.

649
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 13: If it's not dealt with, it becomes worse.

650
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: On the final episode of this season of Tenfold War Wicked.

651
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 13: If you run into a psychopath who potentially is going

652
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 13: to try and put hooks in you, they lie, the deceitfuld,

653
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 13: their manipulative, They can be charming, and so you've got

654
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 13: a document you can't open yourself up to be vulnerable

655
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 13: to these people, and in many cases you have to escape.

656
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: This is like family loyalty going bad.

657
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 5: It is it's the old adage, family right or wrong,

658
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 5: and in this case, the family was more interested in

659
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 5: protecting their own.

660
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 10: I'm not even sure the family even knew about.

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Speaker 2: Her, that's how much they wanted to stone Lak.

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Speaker 10: I don't even think that my grandmother knew her name.

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00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:00,959
Speaker 2: What was the Feaver?

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Speaker 10: I don't know. Maybe she wasn't a Southern madist.

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Speaker 2: I think that's probably fair to say.

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Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff,

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