1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:01,360 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. 2 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 2: If you can speak two or three different languages and 3 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: you're thirsty, you're thirsty before you realize, Okay, I'm gonna 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 2: have to say this in Fringe because I'm in France, 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: or I'm gonna have to say this in Spanish because 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: I'm in Puerto Rico, or I'm gonna say this in 7 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: English because I'm in New York. Your thing is you're thirsty. 8 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 2: So to me, ideas and music are like that, there 9 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 2: before any instrument. 10 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, the show where 11 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Buzz Knight speaks with musicians of all type about their music, 12 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: their influences, and their aspirations. Today, Buzz speaks with jazz 13 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: guitarist Pat Metheni. Fat is a twenty time Grammy winner 14 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: who literally reinvented the traditional jazz guitar for new generation 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: of players. He released his first album, Bright Size Life 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five, which is considered one of the 17 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: most quintessential jazz albums in history. Buzz Night is joined 18 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: by Pat Metheni now on Taking a Walk. 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: Well, thanks Pat for being on Taking a Walk. First 20 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 3: of all, what is a typical day for a lifelong 21 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 3: creator such as yourself? 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, my life is the same 23 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: as it's always been in that I have a real 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: deep interest in trying to understand music. And it's been 25 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: that way for me since I was I don't know, 26 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: eleven or twelve years old. And you know, to be 27 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 2: a good musician it sort of goes a little bit 28 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: under reported. It's hard. It's hard to be a good musician, 29 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: and it really does require a kind of intense dedication 30 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: that is kind of unlike anything else, and it kind 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: of never stops in a way. It's not like you 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: wake up one day and you go, Okay, I got it, 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: you know. In fact, it's the opposite. It's sort of 34 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: the better you get and the more you know and 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: the deeper you're understanding is the more you realize you 36 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: don't know anything and you're just beginning. And I still 37 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: feel like that. I feel like I'm just now starting 38 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: to get a sense of it all. And for that reason, 39 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: I tend to, you know, spend a lot of time 40 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: at it. If I'm not on the road, I often 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: get up very early, four or five in the morning 42 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: because I get three or four hours at that point 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: where nobody else is up and I can really focus 44 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: on whatever it is that I'm doing, and when I'm 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: on the road, I mean it's you know, the concerts 46 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: that I present are often two and a half three 47 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: hours long, and I have to prepare for two hours 48 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: or so before that, so that's you know, five or 49 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 2: six hours a day right there of working on music. 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: You know, people often ask about the physical thing of 51 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: playing an instrument. Honestly, that's not a huge part of 52 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: it for me. It's more about developing ideas and sort 53 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: of being able to execute those ideas, whether it's in 54 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: the form of writing or you know, you know, figuring 55 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: out how to how to get that sound whatever that 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: idea represents out into the world. And that could be 57 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: in many different ways, including you know, the whole thing 58 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: of composition, which for me is you know, not something 59 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: that initially I would have thought might have been the 60 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: main thing for me because I was so interested in 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: improvising and that tradition. But as it turned out, there 62 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: was a way I wanted to improvise that I was 63 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: having a hard time finding a way into. And I 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: realized at a certain point, if I wrote the music 65 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: and handed it to a bunch of other people, that 66 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: could set up an environment where I could get to 67 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: what I wanted to get to as an improviser. So, 68 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: you know, the basic thing for me is when I 69 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: can be working on music, I am working on music, 70 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: and it could be anytime day or night. So there's 71 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: no one typical day for me. It's it's just kind 72 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: of constant. But I went to also put an asterisk 73 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: at the end of that. I have three wonderful kids, 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: a great wife, really great family, two dogs, and all 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 2: that comes with that. And balance is the key thing 76 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: for me, not just in music but in everything else. 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: So it's not like I neglect the rest of my 78 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: being to be that kind of a musician. It you know, 79 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: it's it's all equal for me, and in fact, more 80 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: and more, it's sort of like the line between what 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: it takes to be a good musician and just to 82 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: kind of be in the world in a way that 83 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: I think represents what the best music represents to me. 84 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: They kind of blur together after a while. So, you know, 85 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 2: I'm always looking for balance in every way, and you know, 86 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: probably more balanced some periods than others, depending upon what's 87 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: going on. If I have a deadline or something, I 88 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: certainly you know, lean a little bit more to this 89 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: direction than I do in another direction. But you know, 90 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 2: if it's time for parent teacher conferences and all else 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: like that, I lean that way. So I think there's 92 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 2: a way to get everything in and you know, I 93 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: try to enjoy every bit of all of it. 94 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: So, Pat, who were the players as a fifteen year 95 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 3: old wizard that impacted you to this very day. 96 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: Well, like everybody, I had my heroes. I mean, my 97 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: main hero probably wouldn't be a musician if it wasn't 98 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: for my older brother bringing home a Miles Davis record 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: when I was eleven or twelve. The record was four 100 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: and more And you know, that was just one of 101 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: those like life changing, you know, light bulb moments for me, 102 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: and that would be probably the most significant thing I 103 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: could say. The Miles Quintet of the sixties was just 104 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: the model of everything for me. And to this day 105 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 2: it's like that may be, you know, one of the 106 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: highest levels of human achievement that has occurred so far 107 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: in our species. You know, that band really on all 108 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 2: five fronts just got to it. But in particular on 109 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: my instrument was Wes Montgomery. It still is Wes Montgomery. 110 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: I mean there's other players I loved. Kinney Brell especially 111 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: and Jim Hall were the other two big ones for me, 112 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: But it was mostly about Wes. And there are many 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: things about Wes as an improvisor that I actually still 114 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: feel are kind of under reported on and underrecognized, particularly 115 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: the melodic development aspect of it. And you know, saxophone 116 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: players like Sunny Rollins of course, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane 117 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: and trumpet players like Clifford Brown and Freddy Hubbard in 118 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,119 Speaker 2: particular were also huge from me in very particular kinds 119 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: of ways. But my favorite band of that era was 120 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: the Gary Burton Quartet of the late sixties. I mean, 121 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: that was a band that for me just kind of 122 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: represented a major change in the culture in a lot 123 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 2: of ways. And the fact that I wound up joining 124 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: that band really just a couple of years later is 125 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: something and I still kind of have to pinch myself for. 126 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: But kind of having said all those famous dudes, the 127 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: main thing for me were the musicians in Kansas City 128 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: that started hiring me when I was fourteen fifteen, sixteen 129 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: years old, that I was able to play with for 130 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: several years before I even got out of high school. 131 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: And I really learned to play from being on the 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: bandstand with those musicians. There was a drummer in particular 133 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: named Tommy Ruskin, who to this day would be in 134 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: the top five drummers I've ever played with. And the 135 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: fact that I got to sit next to that guy 136 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: for several years, I mean I can trace almost everything 137 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: about the way that I think about time and groove 138 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: and rhythm to those moments being by his side. Often 139 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: in his living room. He would just invite me and Kevin, 140 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: my good friend who was a bass player, and we 141 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: would just play get the chance to play with him. 142 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: But also two other musicians, Gary Sibles and Paul Smith, 143 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: were great musicians around Kansas City that gave me lots 144 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: of chances to play. And one of the greatest musicians 145 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: I've ever been around was an organ player named Russ Long, 146 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: who was I think the best organ player I've ever 147 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 2: heard in terms of just making stuff up. I mean, 148 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: he was a true improviser. And you know, I got 149 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 2: to play with all those guys you know, at you know, 150 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: such a formative stage, and that was huge for me. 151 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: Pat How did the skill set of you being a 152 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 3: trumpet player ultimately shape your style of guitar playing. 153 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: It's interesting for me because I don't think about an 154 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 2: instrument too much. I think about music. And you know, 155 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: some people are often surprised to hear me say I 156 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: write almost everything on piano, and the reason for that 157 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: is because it's like fifty times easier than the guitar. 158 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: I mean, if you have a piano that's in tune, 159 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: it's just been tuned, and it's a really good piano 160 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: and you play a reasonably good voicing, people go, wow, 161 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: you're a genius, you know. I mean, it's not the thing. 162 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 2: It's that the piano itself is an amazing instrument, and 163 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: you know, it might take ten years to learn how 164 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: to play that same chord on a guitar and make 165 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: it have that same kind of an effect. And then also, 166 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: you know, the trump good thing for me was huge. 167 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,599 Speaker 2: My older brother Mike great trumpet player. My dad was 168 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: an excellent trumpet player. My mom's dad was a professional 169 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: trumpet player. I started on trumpet, you know, very young. 170 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: By all accounts, I was terrible. I don't doubt that. 171 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: But one thing that is true is that even you know, 172 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: as I got into playing the guitar for some reason, 173 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: I breathe as if I'm playing the trumpet, and I 174 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: think that helps, meaning like if I'm going to play 175 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 2: a phrase, I go and then I play what I'm 176 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: going to play, and then when I'm out of breath, 177 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 2: I take another little pause, take a breath, and then 178 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 2: play some more. And one thing I do notice about 179 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 2: guitar players, piano players, vibes players, bass players, drummers, if 180 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 2: they don't have that sense of breath somehow, I think 181 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: just our human reaction to that is that we need 182 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: those pauses, We need those breaths because it's it's like 183 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: in conversation if somebody just talks all the time into 184 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: one and then to ever take a you know, you 185 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: kind of tune out after a minute. And music is 186 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: a representation of the way we talk and the way 187 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: we communicate. So I would say the breath aspect of 188 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: being an early trumpet player, it really did affect me. 189 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: And it's interesting how many of my favorite musicians that are, 190 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: you know, non wind instrument musicians. I'm thinking of, like 191 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: Steve Swallow, the great bass player. I think even Gary 192 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: Burton started on trumpet or a wind instrument. So I 193 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: think that does inform the way you become a musician later. 194 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: Pat, when did you realize that you had this other 195 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 3: skill set, that of a teacher. 196 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: It's kind of funny that you mentioned that, because I 197 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: did just make a visit out to my hometown out 198 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: in Missouri, and I was reminded of something that I 199 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: hadn't thought about too much, which is I actually started 200 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 2: teaching other kids about two months after I started playing, 201 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: because one of my mom's friends asked if I could teach, 202 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: you know, their six year old some guitar, and I 203 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I can teach them, you know, whatever 204 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: it is I know. And then that mom told another mom, 205 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: and the next thing I knew, you know, probably would 206 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: have been twelve or thirteen, you know, a couple of 207 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: days a week, I had four or five little kids 208 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 2: come over and I was teaching them E and a 209 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: minor and stuff, and so I guess from then. But 210 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 2: you know, for me, I'm not sure if I am 211 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: a good teacher or I was a good teacher, because 212 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:49,119 Speaker 2: I do think that my teaching thing often was related 213 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: to whatever I was thinking about, or what I was 214 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: working on, or what I felt like I needed to 215 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: communicate to get a gig myself, or something would be 216 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 2: kind of what I would emphasize to whoever happened to 217 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: be my students at the time. You know, maybe that's 218 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: not terrible because I was like then, like now, I 219 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: never was thinking about, oh, well, you want to be 220 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: better than the kid that's sitting next to you. My 221 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 2: sense always was like, well, you know, there was a 222 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: there was Bach, and we all kind of are nowhere 223 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 2: near that, and there was Wes Montgomery, and there was 224 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: even you know, Jimmy Hendrix. I mean, it's sort of 225 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: like I never thought about it in terms of comparing 226 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: anything to probably an age appropriate connection to what a 227 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: kid might be. It would be like more, you know, 228 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: have you listened to Joe Henderson or you know whatever, 229 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 2: because you know, to me, that is kind of the standard. 230 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: So I always kind of maintained that standard. 231 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: And what teachers in your life inspired the teaching bug, well, 232 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: all of us and lisum at Missouri were very, very 233 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 3: lucky to have as the head of the band music 234 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 3: program in our little town a guy named Keith House, 235 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: who is a legendary educator in the state of Missouri 236 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: for thousands of people. 237 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: How he happened to pick Lee Summit and wind up 238 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: in lie Summit. I don't know, but men, all of 239 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: us are really lucky. He was not a jazz guy 240 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: at all, but he was an incredible musician who was 241 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: one of those kind of tough love kind of teachers 242 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: who somehow would get you know, a bunch of you know, 243 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: a lot of farm kids and rural kids playing you know, 244 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: Wagner and you know, like really hit music Mozart and 245 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: you know, and that we didn't even have an orchestra. 246 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: This was all concert band stuff, you know. They it 247 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: was just you know, wind instruments basically, and he was incredible, 248 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: and you know, in my case, he realized pretty early 249 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: because I was already into stuff that was not kind 250 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: of in line with Lisa of Missouri by being interested 251 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: in the music I was interested in and also, as noted, 252 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: probably not a very good trumpet player. So I switched 253 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: to French horn, where I was even worse. But still 254 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: I was in his bands. And he finally said to me, 255 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: he said, okay, you're going to write something for the band. 256 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: And I was probably fourteen, and I was like, oh, okay, 257 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: you know, and you know, he kind of, you know, 258 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: almost insisted that I developed that skill because I think 259 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: He saw in me that that was something that could happen, 260 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: and it was a great opportunity for me. There was 261 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: no jazz program at the school at that time because 262 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: we had no saxophone players. I don't know why, but 263 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: that wasn't an instrument that was in our realm. So 264 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: I had to write music for four French ORNs, three 265 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 2: trombones and five trumpets and a rhythm of section and 266 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: we would play at the basketball games for the cheerleaders 267 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: and stuff like that. And then I eventually ended up 268 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: writing a pretty significant piece for trumpet and concert band, 269 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: you know, by the time I was a junior in 270 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: high school, you know, stuff that I would definitely not 271 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: have done had there not been a mister House there. 272 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: So he was a big one for me. And then 273 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: I have to then add, even though I was in 274 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: his band as a you know, side man and playing 275 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: you know, all over the world, just standing next to 276 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: Gary Burton night after night after night was probably the 277 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: best possible education I could ever have gotten, because in 278 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: addition to just being able to describe in detail music 279 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: the way he has, he has an incredibly thorough, eloquent 280 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: way of you know, basically breaking down harmony for improvisers 281 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: that is just unbelievably efficient. He was also another kind 282 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: of tough band leader type person who because I was 283 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: really young. I mean when I started playing with Gary, 284 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: I was eighteen and you know, had only been playing 285 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: for a few years. Even though I had been playing 286 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: a lot in Kansas City, it wasn't the same kind 287 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 2: of thing. I mean, you know, Gary's thing was definitely 288 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 2: at the highest international level, and pretty much after every 289 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: concert I would get an hour or two talk about, 290 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: you know, on the D minor seven flat five going 291 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: into the third chorus, you played an a natural you know, 292 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 2: that didn't really fit, you know, I mean stuff like that, 293 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: And you know, maybe three years or so into the gig, 294 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I got it, you know. But man, 295 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: the first couple of years it was it was really 296 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: valuable for me. And you know, so I have to 297 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: always put Gary high up in there, and I have 298 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: to put Steve Swallow in there too, who is the 299 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: player who in Gary's band, who was always very giving 300 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: in terms of advice and particularly in the in the 301 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: area of writing tunes. He had written the tune Falling Grace, 302 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 2: which for me defined a generation of harmony. It just 303 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: changed everything and to that to this day, I feel 304 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: that tune sort of set the stage for a whole 305 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: new way of thinking about harmony. And to be around 306 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: Steve for a few years was incredible for me. 307 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of the Taking a 308 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. 309 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: Pat, could you have imagined years later the respect that 310 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 3: people have for the album Bright Size Life. You're playing, certainly, 311 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 3: and your introduction in the world of Jaco Pastorius the 312 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 3: great bass player? 313 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: Honestly, not in a million years, because my sense of 314 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: that record for the first ten or twelve years after 315 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: it came out was that I had completely blown it. 316 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: That that band was so much better than what that 317 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: record seemed to represent. I could barely even listen to it, 318 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 2: because you know, it was a six hour session. We 319 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 2: came back the next day and I think did one 320 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: more little thing and then mixed it and that was that. 321 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 2: And Jocko had never been to Europe. He was jet 322 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: lagged out of his mind and kind of nuts at 323 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 2: that stage. Not the same version of nuts that he 324 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: became later, but the organic Jocko of that era was 325 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: a pretty intense person already, And you know, it was 326 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: quite a thing, I have to say. And then probably 327 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 2: fifteen years after it came out, I had an experience where, 328 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: and this happens every and then, where I hear something 329 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: from a distance, like in somebody's you know, car, or 330 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: something like that, and I remember hearing that and thinking, Wow, 331 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: what's that? That sounds really good? What is that? And 332 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: then I realized it was that record, So it was 333 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: kind of like the first time I'd ever really heard it. 334 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: But still it didn't really get to the thing that 335 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: it seems to have now until maybe twenty twenty five 336 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: years after it came out. Certainly within the culture within 337 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 2: even within the community of our thing, it didn't really 338 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 2: get much attention at the time, you know, the Jocko's 339 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: sort of emergence onto the scene on that record than 340 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: his debut record, the Joni Mitchell record, Jugira and a 341 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 2: couple tracks on an early Weather Report record. That was 342 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: the guy that I knew, you know, because he and 343 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: I already had been playing together for a few years 344 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: by that time down in Florida, both of us completely unknown. 345 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: And then I got the gig with Gary a couple 346 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: of years before he joined Weather Report, and he started 347 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: coming up to Boston, we would do gigs, and of 348 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: course everywhere he went around that time, including when he 349 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: was playing with Wayne Cochran, nobody had ever heard anything 350 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: like that. And at the same time, you know, maybe 351 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: even more than those other situations, playing with me, I've 352 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: always joked that I was probably the only person that 353 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: ever said, you're playing too many notes, it's too loud. 354 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't really have the awestruck response to 355 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 2: his thing that I think everybody else had not for 356 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 2: any reason other than I was probably the first person 357 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: or one of the fearest people he'd run into that 358 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: was just as stubborn and sort of whatever as he was, 359 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 2: and that made a really interesting between the two of 360 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 2: us that continued actually across the years, even as we 361 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: went in very very different lifestyle directions. He was the 362 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: only person I had ever met who was as straight 363 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: as me, and that I at that point had never 364 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: had a drink or any drugs or anything at all, 365 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: And that's still true to this day. When he joined 366 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 2: Weather Report, he became a completely different person and almost 367 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 2: an unrecognizable person to me in many ways. Yet at 368 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: moments along the way when he needed something, he would 369 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: always call me and we would have talks because he 370 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 2: knew that I knew him from before, and also I 371 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 2: was probably the person closest to the level of sudden 372 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: attention that he had been getting too. So we had 373 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: a real special thing. And I realize, of course now 374 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 2: that record captures many things about what our relationship was like, 375 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: and Moses too. I mean, that was a real band. 376 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 2: We did a lot of gigs together, had a real 377 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: band dynamic, and so I'm glad that record does exist. 378 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: When did you develop your innovation skills that led to 379 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 3: the invention of some really unique guitars And is there 380 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 3: anything new that you can share that you might be 381 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 3: dreaming up? 382 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 2: In many ways, my early years were very conventional. You know. 383 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: It was a hollow body Gibson guitar and an amp 384 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: and that was it, because that was the realm of 385 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 2: that era. Somewhere in there I found a guitar that 386 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: was a nylon string guitar that had a pick up 387 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: on it that I brought to a Russ long organ 388 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: trio gig, and suddenly there was this other kind of 389 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: sense of orchestration in that band. And you know, I thought, oh, well, 390 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: guitar is interesting because it can be all these different things, 391 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: and I started to embrace that more and more, and 392 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 2: then I realized that, you know, it's an instrument that 393 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: is utterly undefined even at this point, and you can 394 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: really make it be anything. And that led to me 395 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: led me to first, you know, restringing instruments or getting 396 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 2: a twelve string and doing some wacky stuff to it. 397 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: You know, they weren't infinitely malleable because they would just 398 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: kind of do one thing. But I started to think 399 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: of the guitar as being just this paint box, and 400 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: that led me to then getting people to make special 401 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 2: instruments to be able to get to an idea that 402 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: I had. But it was always led by the idea that, 403 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: to me is something that I try to describe to 404 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: people too. That because I know I'm a guitar player, 405 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: people think of me as a guitar player and all that. 406 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: But if I have an idea of like if I 407 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: imagine in my brain, I'm going to improvise a chorus 408 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: on my funny Valentine. Right now, I'm doing that, And 409 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 2: I could pick up a trumpet and I would attempt 410 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 2: to play that idea that and it would sound terrible, 411 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: But that's what I would go for. Or I could 412 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 2: go over to the piano and I would play that 413 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: same idea, and then I would pick up the guitar 414 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: and I would also play that same idea much better 415 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 2: than in the other two cases. But it's the idea 416 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 2: that's before any of that stuff, and the way I 417 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: describe it to people, it's sort of like if you 418 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: can speak two or three different languages and you're thirsty, 419 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 2: You're thirsty before you realize, Okay, I'm going to have 420 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 2: to say this in French because I'm in France, or 421 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to say this in Spanish because I'm 422 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: in Puerto Rico, or I'm going to say this in 423 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: English because I'm in New York. You know, your thing 424 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: is you're thirsty. So to me, ideas and music are 425 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: like that, there before any instrument. But sometimes I need 426 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: to develop a language to express those ideas, and it's 427 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: pretty abstract, and that analogy that I escaped breaks down 428 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: very quickly. But I have found that sometimes an instrument 429 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 2: can lead you to places you know based on you know, 430 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 2: something that is instigated by an idea that you might 431 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: have that finally, with an instrument in hand takes you 432 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 2: someplace that you might not have expected. 433 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: Well, what do you think your secret X factor is 434 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 3: behind your collaboration skills. 435 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 2: It's funny because I know that I've done a lot 436 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: of things with a lot of people, but I'm also 437 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 2: really picky about what I do. And I mean by that, 438 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 2: I mean I have said no to way more things 439 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: than I've said yes to, including things that would shock 440 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: people along the way and even me when I think 441 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: back on it. I mean, there was a period I 442 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: just said no to everything. When I started my band, 443 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: I decided I'm not going to do anything except my 444 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 2: own thing, and from the years between nineteen seventy seven 445 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: and nineteen eighty seven, which is when Mike Brecker asked 446 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 2: me to be on his first record, I literally did 447 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: not do anything. I think maybe there's one little thing 448 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: I did, but I only did my own thing, and 449 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: maybe there were some benefits to that. I think there 450 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 2: probably were, actually, but man, when I think it's some 451 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 2: of the stuff I could have done in there, it 452 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: kind of blows my mind. But basically, to me, there's 453 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: two things that happened. One is I'm going to either 454 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 2: have to go play in somebody else's yard, which is 455 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: mostly what it is, and I do enjoy that. I mean, 456 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: the period from nineteen eighty seven to maybe around the 457 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: year two thousand, I did a lot of stuff with 458 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: some great musicians like Kenny Garrett or Mike Brecker, who 459 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: I mentioned. You know, I had a great collaborative band 460 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 2: with Herbie Hancock and Jack Dejanet and Dave Holland, and 461 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: you know, lots of things. And you know, for me, 462 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 2: it's when I'm going to go play in somebody else's yard, 463 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: I want that yard to be like a place where 464 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to come back from that with a whole 465 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: new perspective. And maybe the ultimate example of that would 466 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: have been the collaboration with Ornette Holman, who had been 467 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: a hero for me and became a very good friend, 468 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: and as much as I love his music to this day, 469 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: is one of the greatest human beings I've ever had 470 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: the opportunity to be around. But it's always a thing 471 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: where either I know right away, oh that's a good idea, 472 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: or I don't, and if I have to think about it, 473 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: I usually don't do it. And it's kind of simple 474 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: in that respect. But the favorite thing for me is 475 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: somebody who I don't necessarily have to go play in 476 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: their yard and they are capable of coming and playing 477 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: in my yard, which does require, you know, some skills 478 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: that are unique in the sense that you've got to 479 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 2: be able to really hang with harmony as an improviser, 480 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 2: and that is not always the case even with advanced players. 481 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 2: And there are some particular things about my stuff in 482 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: particular that are often even be fuddling to the very 483 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 2: best you know improvisers in this general community, and that 484 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: there's times when it's like, you know, very simple, and 485 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: it's not hard at all for me to find people 486 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: who can play really complicated. It's very difficult for me 487 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: even now to find people who can play very complicated 488 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 2: but can also play very simple. And in fact, I 489 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: would say it's much harder to play something that's effective 490 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: at a very simple level of harmony or mel and 491 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: have it do what it needs to do than the 492 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: guys who I can find all over the place who 493 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: can play their cool little arrangement of I hear Rhapsody 494 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: in fifteen eight backwards with every substitute course. I mean, 495 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: there's lots of that, but there's you know, it's hard 496 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: for me to find somebody who can play the melody 497 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 2: of Farmers trust, you know, it's a ballad of mine, 498 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, and make it do what it's supposed to do. 499 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's kind of like that. 500 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 3: How did the David Bowie collaboration come about? And what 501 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: was that experience like? 502 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: In the midst of all this, somewhere in my mind 503 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: I had always thought, well, you know, I love films, 504 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: I love film music. I wonder if I could do that. 505 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 2: And over the years I did, I don't know, ten 506 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: or twelve films, different levels, different budgets, different you know, 507 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: kinds of things. And one of them in there was 508 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: a movie called The Falcon and the Snowman with one 509 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: of my favorite directors, John Slessinger, the guy who done 510 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: The Midnight Cowboy, who was a very musical person too. 511 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 2: He also conducted or was the director of operas and 512 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: just really had had a very evolved sense of music. 513 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: And it was very a great film, true story that 514 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: starred Sean Penn and Timothy Hutton. And I went down 515 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: to Mexico where they were filming, and watched a day 516 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: or so of filming and went back to the hotel 517 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: room and wrote that the tune that is the basically 518 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: the theme of the movie, which is the song this 519 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 2: Is Not America. And as we were working on you know, 520 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: the score and everything about it, John Slessenger said we 521 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: should get somebody to sing this song for the end credits, 522 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, you know, sure, and he 523 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 2: mentioned David Bowie, who I was not that familiar with. 524 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: That's not a statement of anythings that me, but I 525 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: got to the store and got a couple of records 526 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: and I was like, Oh, this guy's the perfect I mean, 527 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: this is the perfect kind of voice to sing this song, 528 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: for sure. And so he was invited to a screening 529 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: David Bowie Whiz and I sat next to him and 530 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: hung out with him and was kind of extremely aware 531 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: of being in the presence of a super evolved human being. 532 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: I mean, I have to say he's one of the 533 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: most intelligent, just bright people I think I have ever 534 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: had the good fortune to be around. And so he 535 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: liked the whole idea. I send him, you know, four 536 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: or five versions of my tune. He was living in 537 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: Switzerland at that time and did some stuff with my versions. 538 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: He added kind of a bass drum part and then 539 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: he sang kind of a demo. Oh for the tune 540 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 2: that was kind of not exactly what I had written. 541 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: It was sort of almost like a counterline that was 542 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: really cool. But the main thing was the words were amazing, 543 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: incredible words. So my band at the time that was 544 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: working on this score with me, we all flew to 545 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: Switzerland jet lagged out of our minds because of the 546 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 2: way the scoring had gone. Had to do like the 547 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 2: last seventy two hours of the scoring sessions, we were 548 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: awake the entire time. Everything had run late. So then 549 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: flew to this studio in Montro, the famous it was 550 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 2: owned i think by Queen, the band Queen in Montro 551 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 2: and you know, we spent two days in the studio 552 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: with him and did that track, which was very interesting, 553 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: and you know, it was sort of like being around 554 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 2: you know, Sonny Rollins there somethime. It was like this 555 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: guy is a master and it was a incredible experience. 556 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 3: Tell us about the creative process behind your newest album, 557 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 3: Moon Dial. 558 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: The latest record I have out is called Moon Dial, 559 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: which is kind of the third in a series of 560 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 2: really purely solo guitar records that I've done on baritone guitar. 561 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: And most people don't know what a baritone guitar is 562 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: it's just what you would think halfway between a regular 563 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 2: guitar and a bass guitar. And a gentleman in Missouri 564 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: when I was growing up showed me a cool way 565 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 2: of using a baritone guitar was to tune the middle 566 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: two strings up in octave, so you get this sort 567 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: of bass realm, but you also get this sort of 568 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: middle zone that's almost like a violin, and then the 569 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 2: lead sound on top is like a viola, and it's 570 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 2: a really cool thing. And the first time I addressed 571 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: that was a record called One Quiet Night. Then I 572 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 2: kind of learned it, like in detail from playing at 573 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: night after night, and I don't know, A number of 574 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: years later did a record What's It All About, which 575 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: was the first time I'd ever done a record where 576 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 2: I play only other people's music, including you know, a 577 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 2: lot of pop tunes that I used to like drive 578 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 2: into gigs in high school and stuff, some seventies kind 579 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 2: of tunes. And then this one is different in the 580 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 2: sense that both those records were done on steel string 581 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 2: baritone guitars. I had always wanted to get a nylon 582 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: string baritone guitar going, but could never find the strings. 583 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: I put out another a different kind of solo record 584 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 2: last year called dream Box that's all on electric guitar, 585 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: overdubbed like two electric guitars, but still just me, and 586 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: it went off on a long tour for in support 587 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: of that record, where just as that tour is beginning, 588 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 2: I found a way of stringing up a nylon string 589 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: baritone guitar for the first time that was effective, started 590 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: playing it on the first night of that tour and 591 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 2: kind of fell in love with it and found a 592 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 2: whole new world in there. On the first break of 593 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 2: the tour, after about fifty five sixty gigs, while it 594 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: was still fresh for me, I took that baritone nolin 595 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 2: string guitar off into a little room with a good 596 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 2: mic and recorded that whole record across a week or so. 597 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: And it's a really special record. It's got a very 598 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: different sound than the other two, but I think the 599 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 2: fact that it was new to me and a new 600 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: sound brings something novel to it all too. And it's 601 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: off to a great start at this point. People seem 602 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: to really like it's a record that has that quality 603 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: that I always hope for where you can just kind 604 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: of have it on and it's fine, or you can 605 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 2: turn it up as loud as you can turn it 606 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 2: up and really listen to the details. And there's other 607 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 2: stuff in there too that I think will reveal itself 608 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 2: to people over the time they spend with it. So 609 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: I'm pretty happy with that one, and I'm you know, 610 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: continuing on a tour that's including it and many other 611 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 2: things about what I have done over the years as 612 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 2: a solo guy making records. So there's quite a variety 613 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 2: in the evening of things that happen, you know. I 614 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: did a record some years back called Zero Tolerance for 615 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 2: Silence that it was a very different approach to playing solo. 616 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: There was a record New Chautauqua early on that had 617 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 2: strumming and almost like a kind of country feeling, and 618 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 2: other things along the way too, So I've been kind 619 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 2: of looking at all those in this tour and it's 620 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 2: really been fun for me. 621 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 3: Can you talk about the work that the Metheni Music 622 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 3: Foundation does. 623 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 2: This was a project that was started by my older 624 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: brother Mike in Missouri to you know, help young musicians 625 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: in our hometown of Lease Summit go to study at 626 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: summer camps. And each year there's kind of a I 627 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 2: don't want to say a competition, but people send in 628 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 2: tapes of their playing, and you know, we were a 629 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 2: committee of people pick the person who seems to deserve, 630 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: you know, a little support. And it's been going on 631 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 2: now for a while and it's a not for profit 632 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: thing out in the state of Missouri, so it's cool 633 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: to be a part of that. Well. 634 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 3: Patent closing anybody on your dream list that you'd like 635 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: to work with in the future, you know. 636 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: That's an interesting one. There are many people I've already 637 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: worked with that I look forward to working with again. 638 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Brad Meldow and I did a 639 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: set of recordings that were kind of okay, I mean there, 640 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: you know, they were kind of documentations of our very 641 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: first meeting, which happened in a studio. Then we went 642 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 2: out and toured a lot across a number of months 643 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 2: and that's where it really got good. And you know, 644 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: at some point we do have a lot of recordings 645 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 2: of live gigs. It'd be great to put those out 646 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 2: and then maybe do some more playing together. Katy Garrett 647 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: is one of my favorite musicians of all time, and 648 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 2: I would love to play with Kenny Moore, but I 649 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 2: mean pretty much everybody I've ever played with, I would 650 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: love to play with all of them more, you know. 651 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: I mean, right now, my focus has been playing with 652 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 2: younger musicians that are just starting out, because I had 653 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: that opportunity myself, and I feel like that's a great 654 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 2: thing to be able to share with people. Is this 655 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 2: ongoing thing. So I do hire a lot of you know, 656 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: twenty something guys now. And Joe Dyson is a drummer 657 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 2: that's been kind of in my various things these last 658 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: couple of years who is one of the greatest I've 659 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 2: ever been around, and I just love him. Chris Fishman 660 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 2: has been playing with me in the side I thing 661 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: also just an amazing musician and the perfect fit for 662 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: what I'm up to in that realm. And we have 663 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 2: a new record, the three of Us, with a bunch 664 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 2: of other musicians joining us that's going to come out 665 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: that I'm unbelievably excited about. And then Joe Dyson and 666 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 2: I just were in Japan for a week playing trio 667 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: with one of our main heroes, the Great Ron Carter, 668 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 2: And you know, I'm hoping that maybe some of that 669 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 2: will come out at some point and you know, who 670 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: knows what else is going to happen. I've always got 671 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 2: lots of ideas of things, and. 672 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 3: So yeah, Thanks so much to Pat Metheny for being 673 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 3: on the Taking a Walk podcast. 674 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a 675 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: Walk Podcast. Share this and other episode It's with your friends, 676 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking 677 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 678 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,919 Speaker 1: and wherever you get your podcasts.