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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 4: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Paul, right, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm fine? How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing great.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: This is a special day for all of us because

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Speaker 2: this day is your birthday. Happy birthday. I'm happy to

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Speaker 2: be with you on your birthday.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny, as you get older, you

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Speaker 3: don't see your birthday. I don't see my birthday as

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Speaker 3: being a very special day. It's just another notch towards

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Speaker 3: the end. Right.

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Speaker 1: Well, now I'm depressed.

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Speaker 3: A step closer.

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Speaker 2: Is this what happens after fifty? Because I'm not signing

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Speaker 2: up for this after fifty Am I gonna feel like

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Speaker 2: this in a.

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Speaker 1: Couple of years?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? You know, I know. At least I'm very thankful

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Speaker 3: I've made it this far and I'm feeling good. But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, it's like, Wow, am I really

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Speaker 3: this old?

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Speaker 1: How old? Are you? Should I ask?

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Speaker 3: How I am turning? Well, I guess I have turned

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Speaker 3: fifty five.

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Speaker 2: I can only hope to make it to fifty five.

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Speaker 2: I think that's wonderful. My mom just turns seventy nine

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Speaker 2: a couple months ago.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And I always say, gosh, you do you ever fib

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Speaker 2: about your age? And she always says, hell no, why

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Speaker 2: would I do that? Do you know how many people

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Speaker 2: don't make it to this age? I'm happy at every birthday,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's a great philosophy.

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Speaker 1: So I need you to buck up and be appreciative.

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Speaker 3: I think I could probably learn something from your mom,

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Speaker 3: that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, think how much more you're going to be able

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Speaker 2: to accomplish. I think you're just getting started. Frankly, how's

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Speaker 2: that for pep talk.

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Speaker 3: Let's hope there's something else down the pipe. I'll give

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Speaker 3: you that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, y'all should just skip this part. Skip ahead, get

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Speaker 2: right to the case. I have a huge amount of

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Speaker 2: faith in both of us. There's a lot of ahead

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Speaker 2: for us. So I want you to have a wonderful birthday,

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Speaker 2: to eat all the sugar and carbohydrates that you'll allow,

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Speaker 2: and maybe go to the gym, maybe not, it's your choice,

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Speaker 2: and go have a nice walk with Cora and enjoy

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Speaker 2: it today.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, thank you very much, and you have

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Speaker 3: a case for me.

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Speaker 2: You're so ready to move on. Let's stop talking about

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Speaker 2: my age. Yes, I do have a case about another charming,

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Speaker 2: handsome man, just like yourself. Because it's your birthday, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to say all that, Oh, stop it. But this

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Speaker 2: guy was a serial killer, a French serial killer, no less.

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Speaker 2: So this is a case I think that you'll find

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Speaker 2: really interesting. Less who done it, and more of the

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Speaker 2: reaction that this man garnered at the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century, which will remind you a lot of what

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Speaker 2: happens today with true crime. I've said a gazillion times

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Speaker 2: people have heard me say that true crime has been

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Speaker 2: popular forever, and this is a really good example of that.

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Speaker 2: And I think there's some interesting profiling and some really

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Speaker 2: great historical contexts to go into here. So for your birthday,

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Speaker 2: I present to you the case of the real life

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Speaker 2: blue Beard, the man who murdered many women and almost got.

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Speaker 1: Away with it.

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Speaker 3: All right, we'll lay it on me.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's set the scene. So I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: you back in time to World War one France. Are

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Speaker 2: you a fan of that time period? I love World

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Speaker 2: War One more than World War Two.

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Speaker 3: Actually, now you know, I of course had us history

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Speaker 3: as a kid growing up, and more recently I've been

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Speaker 3: paying attention probably to this era just because of current

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Speaker 3: events and some of the other types of relationships and

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Speaker 3: international type of politics going on, which I'm finding out, Well,

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Speaker 3: this goes way back, yeah, get all these feelings. So

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Speaker 3: I've gotten a little bit more aware of this time

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Speaker 3: period of World War One, and you know, quite frankly,

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Speaker 3: I had to go, well, how exactly did World War

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Speaker 3: One start? I really couldn't remember. I've become a little

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Speaker 3: bit more aware, but most certainly I am relatively naive

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Speaker 3: to the time period.

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Speaker 2: Well, you will be just slightly less naive by the

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Speaker 2: end of this episode about World War One. I don't

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Speaker 2: often in our episodes talk about folklore and fables and tales.

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Speaker 2: But to explain the nickname that this man got, which

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Speaker 2: was blue Beard, I have to explain a little bit

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Speaker 2: about the folklore behind it. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: different explanations of who blue Beard the fictional character was,

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Speaker 2: but kind of the most common one is in the

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Speaker 2: popular version of this story, blue Beard is a wealthy

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Speaker 2: widower with blue hair on his face, which I've never

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Speaker 2: seen before. Would that be a condition or something? Blue

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Speaker 2: hair on your face?

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of that. Okay, you know, maybe it's

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Speaker 3: it's just sort of a level of gray. It could

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Speaker 3: be that would kind of have a bluish tint. It

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Speaker 3: could be.

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Speaker 2: So he was married six times, and he he married

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Speaker 2: wife number seven. He moves her into his castle, and

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Speaker 2: before he leaves on a trip, he gives keys to

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Speaker 2: every room in the.

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Speaker 1: Building except for one.

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Speaker 2: She cannot go into that particular room under any circumstances.

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Speaker 1: It's forbidden.

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Speaker 3: That's a red flag.

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Speaker 1: Not only is it.

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Speaker 2: Red flag, it's a great way to get somebody to

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Speaker 2: want to get into that room, which is what this

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Speaker 2: in the fable. The wife wanted to do, so he

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Speaker 2: has forbidden her to go in. She goes in and

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Speaker 2: is shocked to find you will not be surprised. His

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Speaker 2: six previous wives, all dead, all stacked up in this room.

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Speaker 2: And when Bluebeard returns home he sees what happens. He's

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Speaker 2: about to murder her when her siblings intervene and he

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Speaker 2: is killed, and bride number seven escapes the fate of

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Speaker 2: the previous wives. So this is a folk tale that

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Speaker 2: started in France. I have heard about this man whose

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Speaker 2: name was Okay, everybody who speaks French, please forgive me.

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Speaker 1: I really am going to do the best I can here.

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Speaker 2: His name was Henri Laundreu, and I have actually read

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Speaker 2: about him many many times. I thought he'd make a

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Speaker 2: great book, and probably someone has written a book about him.

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Speaker 2: But Henri Landreue is what people had said at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the twentieth century, was blue Beard, essentially, because

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Speaker 2: it's sort of similar conditions. He is nicknamed the blue

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Speaker 2: Beard of Gone Bay, and we'll talk a little bit

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Speaker 2: about that area in a minute. So he lives in Paris,

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Speaker 2: he has a wife and four children, and he has

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Speaker 2: a military background. This is early nineteen tens. Much of

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Speaker 2: this case is nineteen fifteen to nineteen twenty, which is

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Speaker 2: in the era of World War One. LN Dreu says

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Speaker 2: he's an inventor. Like many grifters, he is not actually

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Speaker 2: an inventor. He did patent a motorcycle at some point,

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Speaker 2: but it never made it to market. What he was

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Speaker 2: gifted at was stealing money from investors, which feels very

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Speaker 2: much like the Roaring twenties in the United States, where

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Speaker 2: investors were throwing money at every stupid idea you could

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Speaker 2: think of. So he is ripping off off sorts of investors,

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Speaker 2: and he has made off with the money, and he

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Speaker 2: has left his wife and his four children behind.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so he's a con man, right.

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Speaker 2: This is not a story of the unexpected killer. This

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Speaker 2: is the story of a man who seems to have

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Speaker 2: been bad and made some bad decisions from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: So I think we see an acceleration in the kinds

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Speaker 2: of crimes that he's committing. And I'm assuming this is

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Speaker 2: no surprise to you that many times the killers that

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Speaker 2: you've investigated have started with much smaller, seemingly innocuous crimes.

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Speaker 2: Not that stealing money is innocuous, but compared to murder.

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Speaker 3: No, that is in fact very true. And you know,

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Speaker 3: just bringing up Jody Angelo, you know, the Golden State Killer.

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Speaker 3: You're take a look at the types of crimes he

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Speaker 3: was doing, you know, as he's starting out as a

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Speaker 3: serial rapist, and he is committing a ton of financially

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Speaker 3: motivated burglaries. In fact, when he is arrested for shoplifting

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Speaker 3: the dog repellantan hammer that cost him his law enforcement career.

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Speaker 3: When Auburn PD went into his house, they found all

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Speaker 3: sorts of stolen commercial tools, some still in their original packaging.

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Speaker 3: So here you see somebody who is a fantasy motivated,

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Speaker 3: sexually motivated, a serial predator, but he's also committing financially

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Speaker 3: motivated crimes. Right.

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Speaker 2: We see this constantly with criminals, and it's a red

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Speaker 2: flag for certain things, but certainly with hen Rea, this

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Speaker 2: was a big red flag. He's left his wife and

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Speaker 2: children because he was going to serve multiple stints in

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Speaker 2: prison for swindling and abuse of confidence, which is what

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Speaker 2: they would call ripping off investors. And he was in

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Speaker 2: and out of prison constantly. But in nineteen fourteen, when

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Speaker 2: he defrauded investors, he got his most severe criminal charges,

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Speaker 2: which were four years of hard labor and exile in France,

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Speaker 2: which would have been absolutely terrible, but he never had

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Speaker 2: to serve that sentence thanks to World War One, and

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Speaker 2: this was very common. You know, you have people go

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Speaker 2: through the court system and when the war breaks out,

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Speaker 2: kind of all hell breaks loose and people are just lost.

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Speaker 1: Either they had gotten out one way or the other.

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Speaker 2: They were released, or they were expected to enlist and

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Speaker 2: on ree essentially disappeared. He stayed in the Greater Paris

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Speaker 2: area where he lived, of course, under different fake names.

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Speaker 2: You've heard me say many many times it's very easy

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Speaker 2: when there's no identification system to evade authorities. And frankly,

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Speaker 2: thanks to World War One, the authorities were not particularly

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Speaker 2: interested in finding a grifter who had stolen not a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of money from investors. So this is someone

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Speaker 2: who was able to take advantage of world events around

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Speaker 2: them to you know, get out of being in prison.

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Speaker 1: He got away with it.

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Speaker 3: He is now out and about and possibly planning his

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Speaker 3: next mode of crimes, whatever that is going to be.

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Speaker 2: And I would have thought what we're about to talk

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Speaker 2: about next would have been financially motivated, but not when

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Speaker 2: you hear a little bit more about his victims.

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Speaker 1: So I'll be interested in hearing what you think about

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Speaker 1: his motive.

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Speaker 2: This is another example of the time period really influencing

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Speaker 2: who becomes Henri's victims. World War One, many men are gone,

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Speaker 2: they're fighting, or they've died. At this point in the war,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of widows, and Henri is able

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Speaker 2: to take advantage of this. A particularly unattractive man is

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Speaker 2: now attracting a lot of women simply because the war

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Speaker 2: has taken away many of the eligible bachelors. And this

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Speaker 2: is how he started attracting women who would become his victims.

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Speaker 1: So that's some historical context. Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Now is he taken advantage? Okay, So you said

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Speaker 3: that there is a lack of men due to the war.

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Speaker 3: So I would imagine the culture back then is that

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Speaker 3: the women weren't necessarily the ones making money. So are

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Speaker 3: they looking at him, not necessarily for a partnership, a

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Speaker 3: life partner type of relationship, but really for that financial

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Speaker 3: security because their spouses are off fighting the war. Maybe

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Speaker 3: the money isn't flowing in. And so here's somebody who

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Speaker 3: I'm sure is talking to talk he's a con man.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure he's saying, I've got money, or I can

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Speaker 3: get money. I've got this great idea and they're basically

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Speaker 3: going okay.

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Speaker 2: I think it is a matter of survival for a

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Speaker 2: lot of these women. And what's interesting is he selects women,

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Speaker 2: you're right, who don't have a lot of money. They

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Speaker 2: come from working class backgrounds, their husbands are gone. So

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Speaker 2: that's where as we get deeper into this, the question

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Speaker 2: of motive really does pop up for me. Let me

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Speaker 2: tell you about his first victim. It was a woman

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Speaker 2: named Jeanne Cuchet. She was thirty nine years old widow.

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Speaker 2: She was a seamstress and I had a seventeen year

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Speaker 2: old son named Andrea, and she was looking for a

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Speaker 2: new husband.

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Speaker 1: She needed stability.

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Speaker 2: She had a lot of male suitors come and go

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Speaker 2: because she was quite pretty. But finally she got engaged

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Speaker 2: to Onrie, even though of course he was going by

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Speaker 2: this alias. Cuche eventually figured out that Onrie's identity was false,

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Speaker 2: and still they had this on again, off again relationship,

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Speaker 2: and eventually Cuche and her teenage son moved to north

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Speaker 2: central France to live with Henri, which I just don't

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Speaker 2: understand on again, off again relationship. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: he was charming or she just really needed that stability

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Speaker 2: and didn't want to let go.

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Speaker 1: But this is.

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Speaker 2: Eventually a fatal decision for her. So what do you

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Speaker 2: think about that that push and pull leading to something

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Speaker 2: really bad about to happen here?

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Speaker 3: Well, he Henri is not. You know, oftentimes when you

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Speaker 3: see these con men who are going through women in relationships,

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Speaker 3: they're attracted to these women because these women have financial assets,

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Speaker 3: and so they're trying to con these women for financial gain.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I would have expected with Henri, considering

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Speaker 3: his past crimes. But here he is with this woman

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Speaker 3: who doesn't have the financial assets, and he's got to

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Speaker 3: recognize that, and he's portraying himself in all likelihood as

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Speaker 3: somebody who does. So it sounds like he's luring her.

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Speaker 3: Now for what purpose I kind of am guessing, But

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Speaker 3: I'm interested to know what happened next with her.

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Speaker 2: Kushee and her son move in with Henri, and in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifteen they vanish. Cuche and her son vanished without

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Speaker 2: a trace. We have no idea what happened to them.

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Speaker 2: Their bodies have never been found, their famili's never heard

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Speaker 2: from them again. And the only reason we are suspicious

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Speaker 2: of the two of them is because of what happens

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Speaker 2: next with Onnri because they are gone, there's no evidence

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Speaker 2: of bodies, there's no evidence of what happened to them. Now,

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Speaker 2: there is a French journalist named Louis Tomlinson and he's

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Speaker 2: written a lot about this case, and he thinks that

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Speaker 2: Cuche began to blackmail on Rea because she realized what

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Speaker 2: he was doing. And this is an excellent motive for

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Speaker 2: murder when you are trying to blackmail someone who you

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Speaker 2: don't know has the ability to be violent. And this

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Speaker 2: journalist thinks that's what happened to Cuche and her son.

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Speaker 2: He got fed up when he was being blackmailed and

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Speaker 2: he killed them. And then we start on many many

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Speaker 2: murders after that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, And I would say, you know, without knowing

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Speaker 3: what the journalist has to support the blackmail theory, a

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Speaker 3: lot of how I would be looking at what happens

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Speaker 3: to Cuche and her son is going to be somewhat

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Speaker 3: predicated on what happens to his next victims, because that

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Speaker 3: gives insight into what possibly he did in the past.

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Speaker 2: I agree later on hindsight, the police would say it's

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Speaker 2: clear that Henri was responsible for killing Cuche and her son,

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Speaker 2: and these.

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Speaker 1: Were likely his first two victims.

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Speaker 2: It's also believed that this was the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: catalyst for what caused all of these murders. And what

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering about that, and this is what the journalist

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Speaker 2: thinks too, is when a killer is not a killer

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Speaker 2: before then he has his first killer too, and he

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Speaker 2: has gotten away with it and effectively hidden the bodies,

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Speaker 2: is that what encourages.

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Speaker 1: Him to continue?

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Speaker 2: Or is there something that might scare someone off even

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Speaker 2: if they have gotten away with it. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: just wonder what the line is where somebody is emboldened

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Speaker 2: to continue to do this they find out they enjoy

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Speaker 2: it or can get away with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it cuts both ways. And I've seen that, you know.

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Speaker 3: And this is where you know, there are offenders who

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Speaker 3: do get up to a point of homicide and they

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Speaker 3: recognize this is something that they do like doing and

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Speaker 3: maybe they enjoy the actual power control, playing god with

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Speaker 3: the victim. They're the ones who decide when the victim

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Speaker 3: lives or dies. There's also, of course, the sexually motivated aspect. However,

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Speaker 3: there's also the offenders that will kill and then never

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Speaker 3: kill again, and this is what we are seeing as

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Speaker 3: some of these unsolved cases have been solved using the

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Speaker 3: genealogy tool, we're seeing these one off offenders where before

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Speaker 3: these cases are solved, if I'm looking at the circumstances,

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Speaker 3: what was done to the victim, it looks like there's

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Speaker 3: fantasy there, looks like it's a sexually motivated crime going.

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Speaker 3: This appears to be a serial predator. And then when

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Speaker 3: the case is solved, oftentimes it's the one off offender.

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Speaker 3: And then why well, they may fantasize they do it,

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Speaker 3: and they either don't get out of the crime what

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Speaker 3: they thought they would in terms of how satisfying committing

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Speaker 3: the crime was, or they are living with such paranoia

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Speaker 3: that they are going and to get caught at some

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Speaker 3: point down the road they go like, I can't do

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Speaker 3: that again. You know, there's so many different factors. You know,

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Speaker 3: this post offense behavior is huge. And so with Henri,

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Speaker 3: at least with what you have told me is you know,

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Speaker 3: he kills this woman and her son, and at least

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Speaker 3: that's what law enforcement suspects, but it sounds like he

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Speaker 3: continues to kill and so based on what he does

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Speaker 3: to his subsequent victims, well and for me a little

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Speaker 3: bit more about well, how did he perceive Kochhet and

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Speaker 3: Andre her Son as victims? Was this just an elimination

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Speaker 3: homicide or was this his trial run because he was

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Speaker 3: already wanting to go that direction.

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Speaker 2: What I think is interesting is when I've gone through

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Speaker 2: the list of the checklist of psychopathy and how someone

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Speaker 2: is diagnosed with psychopathy, one of the check marks next

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Speaker 2: to it is is this someone who has been able

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Speaker 2: to commit crimes in multiple categories and arsonists, theft, and

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Speaker 2: so far he's killing without remorse that we think we

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Speaker 2: are suspecting that these two people who were last seen

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Speaker 2: with him have disappeared, and because of what we know

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Speaker 2: about him, that it was not a good outcome. They

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Speaker 2: didn't just disappear and start a new life somewhere. So

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Speaker 2: let me tell you what he did, because this is

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Speaker 2: something that I have read about throughout history. He was

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Speaker 2: a very innovative person to try to bring victims directly

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Speaker 2: to him. He preyed on people, according to the police,

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Speaker 2: using matrimonial agencies, on trams, on buses, on metro trains

359
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Speaker 2: and parks and apartments and houses he rented everywhere, So

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Speaker 2: he hit on women everywhere, and tried to draw them

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Speaker 2: to him. But this idea of the matrimonial agencies where

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Speaker 2: they're matching men and women for marriage, I think was

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Speaker 2: really interesting. He placed a Lonely Heart ad in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifteen in Les Journal newspaper and it said Monsieur aged

365
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Speaker 2: forty five, single with no family savings of four thousand francs,

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Speaker 2: having own home. Whish is to marry a lady of

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Speaker 2: a similar age and situation. So for a woman in

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Speaker 2: the middle of World War One with few prospects, this

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Speaker 2: sounds like a fantastic ad to read and then respond to.

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Speaker 3: No, well it does, and I don't know how much

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Speaker 3: four thousand francs is, you know, in terms of a

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Speaker 3: level of wealth back then. But he's advertising he's got

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Speaker 3: his own home, so that's obviously going to be something

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Speaker 3: that is attractive to somebody who's down in their luck.

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Speaker 3: He has money. When you say he's advertising a similar situation,

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Speaker 3: is that also a woman of his age that's single,

377
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Speaker 3: or is it of a woman of his age that

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Speaker 3: has similar assets.

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Speaker 2: Of a similar age and situation. I would say similar assets.

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Speaker 2: He does not want someone who has much lower money

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Speaker 2: than he is. What it sounds like he's you know,

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Speaker 2: he's searching for somebody with money.

383
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so if he's looking for somebody with some assets,

384
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Speaker 3: chances are he doesn't have four thousand francs. And so

385
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Speaker 3: now he's using this Lonely Hearts ad to lure somebody

386
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Speaker 3: who has money. So that tells me there still is

387
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Speaker 3: a financial motive to what he is trying to accomplish.

388
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Speaker 3: He has just switched from what he was doing prior

389
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Speaker 3: to the war, with the con jobs within the business

390
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 3: and the inventions and everything else. So now he's taken

391
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Speaker 3: advantage of the situation, the lack of men, and he's

392
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Speaker 3: reaching out to the most vulnerable, the women that are

393
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Speaker 3: looking for a man in order to partner up with.

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Speaker 1: And he finds it sounds like quite a few of them.

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Speaker 2: And as soon as I heard that he had done this,

396
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Speaker 2: he had put this Lonely Heart ad in the newspaper.

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Speaker 1: This reminded me.

398
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Speaker 2: I don't know if you've read a lot about serial

399
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Speaker 2: killer Bell Gunnis, but she did the same thing.

400
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Speaker 1: In America.

401
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: Bell Gunnis was a very well known I would argue,

402
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 2: probably the most well known female serial killer, certainly in

403
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 2: this time period. In the early nineteen hundreds, and she

404
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: placed ads looking for I believe, Norwegian men with lots

405
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Speaker 2: of money, and she got plenty of them and they

406
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Speaker 2: would just show up with money and she would eventually

407
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Speaker 2: kill them, sometimes marry them first. So this is pretty innovative.

408
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: It sounds like sort of finding someone on the internet. Now,

409
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: what would be the equivalent of that? Is that trolling

410
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: the streets or going to singles clubs? What do people

411
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 2: do now to find someone in a similar situation.

412
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Speaker 3: There's just as many different ways that somebody could find

413
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 3: a victim pool, you know, if you're looking for a

414
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 3: victim of a certain characteristic. I would say these online

415
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 3: dating apps are prime where now you know, I've never

416
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 3: done one, but the swipe left, swipe right. You're not

417
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Speaker 3: necessarily paying attention to the physical attributes. You're looking for

418
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: verbage or signs in the photographs. But oh, this person

419
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Speaker 3: has disposable income. And then it's now digging into and

420
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Speaker 3: seeing if you can reach out and somehow establish a connection.

421
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: But it can be done in person. You know, these

422
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 3: types of offenders will move around. They can't stay in

423
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Speaker 3: one location too long. You know. That's what you'll see

424
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,239
Speaker 3: is they often are quite transient. So once they have

425
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: victimized somebody, they move quickly. They you know, they hide

426
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 3: the assets that they've stolen, and then they try to

427
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Speaker 3: get to a different location. You know. One of the

428
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: points that I want to make is you brought up,

429
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 3: you know, this female serial killer, and this is where

430
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 3: you see the difference in the female versus male serial killers.

431
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: When females are serial killers, it's either for money, like

432
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: the black widow type killer, or it's out of vindictiveness.

433
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 3: It's anger versus men serial killers. You have the vindictive

434
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 3: aspect for sure, and there may be financial motivations, but

435
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 3: oftentimes it's sexually motivated. And that is very, very unusual

436
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: to see a female be a serial killer for sexual motivations.

437
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've actually spoken to several authors who have

438
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: covered some really sadistic female killers, but you're right, they

439
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: seem to be pretty few and far between. But Belle

440
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: Gunnis was next level. She butchered people and took their money.

441
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: There seemed to be multiple motives there. On Rhe's motive

442
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 2: seems to be a little clearer. You know, he's asking

443
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: for people who have money, and he received from these

444
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: lonely heart ads that he placed three hundred responses to

445
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 2: the ad.

446
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: So this is what he did.

447
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: He had a little black book, the good old little

448
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: black book, and he noted his correspondence with every woman

449
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: just to keep his story straight, you know, he wrote

450
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: her name down, what her background was, and then he

451
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: would clarify to himself the alias he used to her

452
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: what he said about his story. So he had a

453
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: black book which will be a treasure trove for police

454
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: later on. This just seems silly to me and someone

455
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: who clearly doesn't think he's going to get caught, because boy,

456
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: what a book of literally a book of evidence.

457
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, And this is reminding me of a serial

458
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 3: killer who I had a role in in terms of

459
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: the investigation, which is Joe Naso. Joe Naso was found

460
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 3: up in Reno. They did a parole search of his

461
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 3: house and they found a diary, a rape diary going

462
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 3: all the way back into the nineteen fifties all over

463
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 3: the Bay Area, actually starting out in Rochester, New York,

464
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: and then out into Oakland and then what we call

465
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 3: the top ten list, a list of women and girls

466
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 3: that he killed, and some of those people were identified,

467
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: victims were identified, and he's now in death row in California,

468
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 3: you know, but he kept that and that is a

469
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 3: huge treasure trove for the investigation.

470
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 2: I mean, that is unred real that somebody would be

471
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: able to do that. But practically it makes sentence, doesn't it.

472
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: If you're telling so many lies, you have to be

473
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: able to keep track, and that's what Henri did. And

474
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: I don't get the impression from reading this story. I

475
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 2: don't get the impression that it is kept as a

476
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 2: remembrance or what do you call them.

477
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: You don't call them trophies. You call them trinkets.

478
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 3: Souvenirs.

479
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, not.

480
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 2: Drinkets, so like we're at Coney Island, though you're right, souvenirs.

481
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 2: I don't get the impression that's for, you know, evoking memories.

482
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: I think it's just a practical thing.

483
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: So he literally has a little black book and the

484
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: first person that he corresponds with from this Lonely Heart

485
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: to Ad is a woman named Celestine Wua Nissan. Celestine

486
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: was the mistress of a man who had recently been

487
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: killed at.

488
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: War, which is a story we've heard before.

489
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: She was the mother of a nineteen year old son

490
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: who had been born illegitimately and now he was fighting

491
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: in the war. She had a huge amount of savings

492
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 2: and this seems like a prime target for Henrie. He

493
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 2: told her that his name was George Fremier, that was

494
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: his alias, and that's what he wrote in his little book.

495
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: He was a manufacturer from the French Belgium border and

496
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: he was courting her, but of course he was also

497
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: talking to other women, so he had a list of

498
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: women going. Another woman was named Anna Cullum. She was

499
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: a thirty nine year old widow and she earned two

500
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: hundred and ten francs per month as a typist, which

501
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: is pretty good during World War One, and there were

502
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: a lot of women who were also at place, So

503
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: he is keeping track of all these women and juggling

504
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: all of them. He wrote about each one of them,

505
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 2: everything about their rendezvous, to keep track of what happened,

506
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: to notes on their financial circumstances, all in this little

507
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: black book, which we've already talked about, is an excellent

508
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: piece of evidence. When you are finally caught. Do you

509
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: find that with other killers? I know you mentioned one

510
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: case already. Is it consistent that people keep track of

511
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 2: the things that I do and happen?

512
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: Do we see a lot of journals.

513
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 3: I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, extensive journals like this.

514
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: You know, Joe Naso's rape diary was quite extensive and

515
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: quite detailed. You know, another serial killer, noted serial killer

516
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: that kept a known list was Randy Kraft, Angel of Darkness,

517
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 3: So he had a very extensive list in shorthand of

518
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: his victims. But the notes he was keeping was so

519
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: were so cryptic that there's a quite a few of

520
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 3: those entries that they have not identified what cases those are,

521
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: who those victims are, and only Randy Kraft knows that,

522
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: and he's not divulging. What Henri is doing is different.

523
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: You know, Joe Naso, Randy Craft, they are keeping sort

524
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: of a memoir so they can go back and relive

525
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: those crimes. Henri is trying to keep the details straight.

526
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: And what's interesting to me is, you know, he's reached

527
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: out to multiple women at the same time and making

528
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: up different stories with each woman that he has to

529
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: keep straight. That tells me he's not sure which of

530
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: these women are going to get snared into his trap,

531
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: and so he's juggling multiple potential victims, but by giving

532
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: them different details, you know, if something were to happen

533
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: and authorities were to start digging in, there isn't a

534
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: consistent pattern of details that authorities can go aha. You know,

535
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: look at this is the same person over and over

536
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: and over again. That's what he's trying to do.

537
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: And he's using all of these aliases. And remember he's

538
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: doing this on the run. They are looking for him

539
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: actively now World War One is still happening, but he

540
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: could be recognized by a local police officer who knows.

541
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: It's still a little bit of a risk.

542
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: We know that between nineteen fifteen and nineteen twenty a

543
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: total that we know of of ten women Vanish in

544
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: a five year period who have all been associated with Henri,

545
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: and then one man who is Andre, who is the

546
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: son of the first victim. That's a lot of bodies

547
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: to hide, and it seems to me like a pretty

548
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: big risk because, as we'll find out, these are all

549
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: people who were missed. These are not people living high

550
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: risk lives. These are people who their family members are

551
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: going to come looking for them. But he has to

552
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: balance this because he does still need people who have money.

553
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 2: That's part of his motivation. So it's a risky little

554
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: demographic he's working in don't you think, Well, it.

555
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 3: Is any time that you have somebody whose family is

556
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: going to miss them at a certain point, if the

557
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: family is aware that the person is not corresponding with

558
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 3: them or seen on the routine that they're used to,

559
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: then they're going to become concerned and eventually report that

560
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 3: to authorities are come looking for them themselves. So in

561
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 3: some ways, if he is targeting women that are closely

562
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: connected with family that they're associating with physically on a

563
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 3: routine basis, that elevates his risk of being caught versus

564
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: targeting somebody whose family is nowhere near them. And that's

565
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 3: where I'm kind of curious. Was he, you know, juggling

566
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: all these women in his black book, and one of

567
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: the characteristics he was going to use was whether or

568
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: not they were isolated from the rest of their family.

569
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 3: So he has a time frame in which to get

570
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: their assets to whatever else he's going to do, which

571
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: I'm still not sure if there's anything else that he's

572
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 3: doing with these victims, and then disposing of their bodies,

573
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: hiding their bodies and setting an escape route, so to speak,

574
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: from the trail that might lead to him. He may

575
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 3: not physically be moving, but he may be laying down

576
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 3: some barriers that would prevent the family or authorities from tracing,

577
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: you know, the victims' movements to Andreys front door.

578
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if he has been cross referencing women

579
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: to hopefully pick one specifically who aren't close to their family,

580
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: but he picked two of the wrong ones. Because you've

581
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: got our heroes, and I love to have in true

582
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: crime stories.

583
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: I love when women can be the heroes.

584
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: There are two heroes here who are sisters of two

585
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: of his victims who don't know each other, these two women,

586
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: So I'll tell you what ends up happening and how

587
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 2: they become connected. So one of the victims, Celestine, who

588
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: we talked about her sister Marie Lacoste, was determined to

589
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: find out what happened.

590
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: They missed her. They were a tight knit family.

591
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: She started conducting her own informal investigation into this man

592
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: from the Lonely Heart ad who Celestine hadlong with, and

593
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: eventually she reached out to the mayor of the town

594
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: where Henrie was living and where her sister was last

595
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: seen and begged him to investigate the man, and he

596
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: shrugged her off, essentially.

597
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: Saying it's none of my business.

598
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: Love affairs are not something I want to be involved with,

599
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: particularly if they involve men. We're not going to dig

600
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: into somebody's private life. But he did do one thing.

601
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: He put Celestine's sister Marie in touch with another woman,

602
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: Victorine Palais. And Victorine was the sister of another victim,

603
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: who was Anna Culem, and she had separately reached out

604
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: to the mayor around suspicions around her sister's suitor. Also,

605
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: so you've got two victims out of eleven whose two

606
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: sisters are looking for them, and now the mayor of

607
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: the town or the village where Henri has been in

608
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: the countryside of France is connecting these two women and

609
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: they start telling stories and realized that their sisters were

610
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: involved with the same man with different names. Do you

611
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: know of a case where victims or you know, survivors

612
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 2: have worked together or the families of survivors have worked

613
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: together to try to piece together what happened, even if

614
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: it's after the perpetrator has been caught.

615
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: Well in terms of working together, you know, most notably

616
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 3: is Golden State Killer, where prior to the case being sold,

617
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 3: there were several family members Debbie Domingo, who was the

618
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: daughter of Sherry Domingo, who had been killed by the

619
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 3: Golden State Killer. Then you have Michelle Cruz, who was

620
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: the sister of Janelle Cruz, the Golden State Killer's last

621
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 3: known victim. They were independently wanting to figure out who

622
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 3: killed their loved one. Debbie had even reached out to

623
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: me well before the case was solved, wanting to introduce

624
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: herself to me, also wanting to pick my brain in

625
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: terms of, you know, where I was going with my investigation,

626
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 3: and I shared information with her that the prime agency

627
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: over her mother's case had never shared with her, including

628
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: some photos from inside the house, not including you know,

629
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: photos of the victims, but just to see if that

630
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 3: would spark a memory, you know. Now she had never

631
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 3: seen photos from inside the house and had never been

632
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 3: inside the house after the homicides occurred. And then ultimately

633
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: those two pair up along with a survivor of Joe DeAngelo,

634
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: a rape victim, Jane Carson, and they're all kind of

635
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: working together. So I have seen that I was trying

636
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 3: to think of other cases out there, and at least

637
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: within the cases that I have personal knowledge of, I

638
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 3: think that's the only time I've seen it on the

639
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 3: media side. Now that I am in the true crime genre,

640
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 3: I've seen that a little bit. I just can't necessarily

641
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 3: divulge that information right now.

642
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: All right, well that's very mysterious, Paul, Well, I can't

643
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: wait to hear more at some point when you can

644
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: divulge information.

645
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: So here's what happens.

646
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: These two sisters begin to work together and they are

647
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 2: convinced that this is the same man who has been

648
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: courting their two sisters who have now been missing for

649
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 2: quite a while.

650
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: I want to make an observation, So here you have.

651
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: You know, one of the sisters goes to the mayor

652
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: and he's like, I don't want anything to do with this. Oh,

653
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 3: but by the way, there's this other sister of a

654
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 3: missing woman.

655
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: Right, she's been complaining too.

656
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the mayor should be going, hold on, I've

657
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 3: got two women that are now looking for the same

658
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: guy of two missing women. When is he getting law

659
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: enforcement involved as opposed to now, this isn't my problem.

660
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 3: He's not doing a very good job.

661
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: And I think that the mayor is probably not thinking

662
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: this is a killer. I think that he's thinking this

663
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: is a womanizer, and I'm not going to contribute to

664
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: the humiliation of one.

665
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 1: Of my citizens, who is you know, in town.

666
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: He didn't want to get involved, but he had heard

667
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 2: complaints from the other sister. So what is so interesting

668
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: and tells you the size of France in this time

669
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: period or the luck is one of the sisters is

670
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: in Paris and she actually spots him. She spots on

671
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: ree and he's on a Paris street. And remember he's

672
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: a fugitive, so police have no problem bringing him in.

673
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: She rushes over, she finds a police officer nearby. He

674
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: is quickly arrested at a minimum because he skipped out

675
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,959
Speaker 2: on a four year prison sentence hard labor sentence for

676
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: defrauding investors. And when he has taken in, he's in

677
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: his apartment and he's got the little black book in

678
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: the apartment. He tries to throw it out the window,

679
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: and of course it's confiscated by police. Criminals are so

680
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: silly to me sometimes, I just thought he just tried

681
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: to throw out this material. And now they've got a

682
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: whole book full of names and information of potential victims.

683
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: That's still not that much right now, you just have

684
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: rumors and a sleazy guy who sleeps around a lot.

685
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: Right, at this point, it all depends on what's inside

686
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: this book. You know, his actions of trying to throw

687
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: the book out the window, all that did is draw

688
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 3: law enforcement's attention to this as being Okay, this is

689
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: something we need to pay attention to.

690
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: Right.

691
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: He probably could have secreted it in a different way,

692
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: in a less in a more subtle way, and they

693
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 3: may have even overlooked it entirely. I doubt if they're

694
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 3: doing like a massive search of his residence.

695
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: Well, what I would have said if I were him

696
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: was I'm married. I don't need my wife knowing that

697
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 2: I have a little black book full of women's names

698
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: and what they were like in bed, and what their

699
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: financial situation was. So there's still not very much evidence,

700
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: just the suspicion of two women who I can almost

701
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: guarantee you have been labeled as hysterical now in you know,

702
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nineteen nineteen France, who are trying to alert

703
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: authorities that their two sisters are missing, when authorities don't

704
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: appear to be that concerned.

705
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: They are, however, concerned about.

706
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: Someone who was convicted of a crime, who was supposed

707
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: to be working in a prison yard who had gone missing.

708
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: So they take him because of that.

709
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: So moving forward, they do an extensive investigation ish and

710
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 2: when I say ish, that means I think they missed

711
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: quite a few things. What they did find for incriminating

712
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: evidence was lots of ID cards from various women who

713
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: had gone missing. There were stolen items like jewelry and

714
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 2: clothing and furniture. The Little Black Book they could match

715
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: up to some of these IDs, but they haven't found anybodies,

716
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: no signs of murder. And essentially he could have said

717
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: he wasn't talking, but he could have said, listen, I

718
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: stole all of this stuff, and thief is a thief,

719
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: but I'm not a killer. So they haven't at this

720
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: point in the investigation found anything that can substantiate murder

721
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: charges just yet.

722
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 3: So the Black Book, he's not putting entries I killed

723
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: no Celestine or you know, it was okay. So in essence,

724
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: it is just his like almost a dating type of entry. Yep.

725
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 3: But he has these women's IDs, yep. That's huge. You

726
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 3: have these other items, the jewelry, the dresses and stuff,

727
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 3: but those IDs, those are something that these women aren't

728
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 3: just going to leave behind. So that right there is

729
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: where you know, the investigators, the hair on their back

730
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: and the necks must be going up going. These women

731
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 3: probably met with foul play. Yeah, And the reason he's

732
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: keeping those IDs is in all likelihood as a souvenir,

733
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: unless he is somehow using those IDs in order to

734
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 3: continue to draw from you know, the financial institutions, you know,

735
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 3: getting money from their accounts, or however it worked back

736
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 3: in the day, right.

737
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: And one of the things that they did was they

738
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: did do searches, of course, of his family home where

739
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: his wife who had been abandoned, and his four children,

740
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: where he had a place in the country where he

741
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: had been staying, where most of these women had visited.

742
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: They did his search. They did not find bodies of

743
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: these women. They did find something that is also disturbing, though.

744
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: They found the bodies of three dogs and one cat

745
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: who were all pets of the victims.

746
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: Their family said.

747
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: And he at first denied any involvement of the murders

748
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: of the women. So he denied all involvement of the murders,

749
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: but he admitted that he had strangled these animals to death. Oh,

750
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: don't ask me why. I have no idea why I mean,

751
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: a dog is going to alert people if their owner,

752
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: if a woman is being threatened, but a cat. Is

753
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: this all sadistic or do you think it's practical or what?

754
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 3: Well, there is a practical aspect, of course, you know,

755
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 3: once he is done with the pets owners, he's getting

756
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 3: rid of the pets. But the method that he's killing

757
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: them is interesting strangulation. I start to think, Okay, is

758
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: this somebody at a younger age was also involved with

759
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: cruelty to animals? For me, everybody's heard of the serial killer, triad,

760
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: cruelty to animals, fire setting, bedwetting. I put the zerial

761
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 3: weight on bed wedding, fire setting, I put some weight on.

762
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: But the number one indicator is is if somebody's willing

763
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: to torture and kill an animal, they're just one step

764
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 3: away from doing that to a human. So now he

765
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: is manually he's strangling these dogs and a cat. I

766
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 3: go back into his past as a teenager. Was he

767
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 3: doing that? Now? I start wondering, Okay, maybe these women

768
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: they are being lord of course for their financial assets,

769
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 3: because he is a con man. It's a financially motivated criminal,

770
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 3: but he may also have a sexual motivation. He may

771
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 3: have a predatory component to him. This is where I'm

772
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 3: very curious, as you tell me more that did they

773
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: find any of their bodies? Do we have any indication

774
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 3: on what he did to these women?

775
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about what his neighbors said. So as

776
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: a reminder, he was nicknamed the Bluebeard of Gone Bay

777
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 2: because that's where he lived, was this village or town

778
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: in France and the countryside.

779
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 1: And the police went to talk to.

780
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: His neighbors in Gombay, and there were several things that

781
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 2: they were alerted about. One was that there were a

782
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: lot of complaints about bad smelling smoke coming from his chimneys.

783
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: I'm not sure fire is a great way to dispose

784
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: of a body.

785
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 3: No, You know, a lot of people may assume that

786
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: the average house fire, let's say in a fireplace, is

787
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: going to do like what a crematorium will do, and

788
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 3: it's not even close. So there is often a lot

789
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 3: of the body that remains after the fire. There has

790
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 3: to be a lot more work done in order to

791
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 3: truly get rid of the body. Plus, in his situation,

792
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: you now you are sending this smoke out that is

793
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: being distributed into the neighborhood, so that smell is alerting

794
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 3: the neighbors. You know, Henri, the weird guy living next

795
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 3: door is doing something not normal, And oftentimes in current

796
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 3: day law enforcement is called to locations because of weird

797
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 3: smells or the smell of death, or the neighbor is

798
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: doing something odd in the middle of the night.

799
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: And there are a couple more odd things that are happening.

800
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: The neighbors in this village said that there were women

801
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: who were coming but not leaving the property.

802
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: Which I think they thought was odd.

803
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: And they go back the police because they're gathering all

804
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: this information and on Rhea's in jail awaiting whatever is

805
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 2: going to happen to him. Next, the police go back

806
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: out to the country home after they've interviewed the name

807
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: Ambers and do a more thorough search, and they find

808
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: pieces of women's clothing as well as ashes underneath a

809
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: pile of leaves near the garden, and they eventually determined

810
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: that there's a substance there that contains human bone fragments

811
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: and teeth. So, of course we don't have DNA evidence

812
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: DNA testing during this time period. They were certain that

813
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: these were human remains, and they were certain that he

814
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 2: had disposed of the human remains in the oven.

815
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: And you and I we.

816
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: Just finished talking about, you know, using fire and ovens,

817
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: and you and I have talked about another case where

818
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: you know, somebody was burned in an oven, and I

819
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: wanted to make sure to show you in this case

820
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: the size of an oven, because I know that it

821
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: does make a difference because they did enter it into evidence.

822
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: So this is the oven right here that we're working with.

823
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: This photo, which looks fairly large. I'll go up a

824
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: little bit so that you can see it in the context.

825
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: See it on the right here. Yeah, it's just a

826
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: typical oven. But we're talking about eleven people. So I

827
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: don't think he was able to dispose of all of

828
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: those remains in this particular oven.

829
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 3: Well, he's working, in all likelihood with one victim's body

830
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 3: at a time. He you know, in all likelihood, is

831
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 3: having to dismember the victims and then you know, incinerating

832
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 3: the victims in the oven. This took some time, so he's,

833
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 3: you know, he was diligent. If all eleven victims all

834
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: were disposed of in this method, that was a lot

835
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 3: of time.

836
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really didn't find many remains. They were certain

837
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: that there were human remains, but Henri is not confessing

838
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: it's not happening. In fact, when he appears in court,

839
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: he's very, very arrogant.

840
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: He turns this into a circus.

841
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: He is charged with eleven counts of murder based on

842
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 2: those remains, based on frankly, the families who came forward

843
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: and said, my sister's missing, and I know that she

844
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: was involved, or my daughter was missing, I know she

845
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 2: was involved with this particular man. So they charged him

846
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 2: with eleven counts of murder and thirty seven counts of

847
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: theft and fraud based on the material that they found there.

848
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,479
Speaker 2: I think it was haphazard at best.

849
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 3: Now do you know did they find all eleven women's

850
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 3: IDs at his place or just some of them?

851
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: I believe some of them.

852
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: I think that they found enough items to constitute charging

853
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: him with eleven counts. But I'll tell you at the

854
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: end of this, I think there are many many more victims.

855
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: I just I'm not sure where he hid them, because

856
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: I just don't think he would have been able to dispose.

857
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: Although I don't know.

858
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 2: Five years these people all went missing from nineteen fifteen

859
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: to nineteen twenty.

860
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: It's a long time. You have to be diligent.

861
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: But anybody complaining about foul smelling smoke just I think

862
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: would have been complaining for you can imagine years of

863
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: bad smelling smoke as a neighbor that something wouldn't have changed.

864
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know something that struck me. You mentioned

865
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 3: that he had this country property, right, Did he have

866
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: any animals nearby, you know, either on his property or

867
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 3: on the neighbor's properties, like pigs, hogs?

868
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: No, but get bell Gunnis. Did I think that might

869
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: be where you're heading. Yeah, No, no animals that I

870
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: know of, But it was a country estate, so who knows.

871
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: It would have made sense for him to have some animals,

872
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 2: chickens or something to cultivate to be able to eat,

873
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: I would assume, but I don't know anything about for sure.

874
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would imagine that over the course of five

875
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: years with eleven victims, his method of body disposal probably

876
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 3: evolved and changed. And these offenders I've seen somewhat of

877
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 3: a pattern, and this is a loose pattern with cases

878
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with, where early on they will be much

879
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 3: more meticulous and spend a lot more time disposing of

880
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 3: the body because this is when they're paranoid, right, and

881
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 3: they're going to you know, spend all that time, you know, dismembering,

882
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 3: putting them in the oven. Each piece is round up,

883
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 3: and then they just scatter, you know, what remains across

884
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 3: the landscape. But then some of these offenders will go, ah,

885
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 3: that's a lot of work, you know, and I'm getting

886
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 3: away with this. Nobody's ever going to know. And now

887
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 3: maybe the victims' bodies are just taken out into the

888
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 3: countryside and dumped hole, you know, just being a surface deposit.

889
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 3: So you see this kind of evolution almost away from

890
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 3: being good at it, you know, to being just half hazard.

891
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering, you know, in this day and age,

892
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: he may have just resorted after some of the victims.

893
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: He's taken all this time to dismember and burn up

894
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 3: and scattered what remains to where now he's just taking

895
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 3: maybe dismembered body parts and scattering him across the countryside

896
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 3: as he's you know, in a horse drawing carriage or

897
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 3: in a some sort of vehicle, or you know, if

898
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 3: you have what I was getting at earlier, If you

899
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 3: do have you know, a hog farm nearby, you're throwing

900
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 3: body parts back there and they will consume those body parts.

901
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: Bone and well, and you're looking at the times, in

902
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: the place, in the context and history. As the prosecutors

903
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 2: are building this case, they are saying some pretty interesting

904
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: things I think are really creepy and incriminating, including the

905
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 2: fact that Henri when he would buy tickets train tickets

906
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 2: for he and these women to go to the village

907
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: where his country house was, he would buy himself a

908
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: round trip ticket, but.

909
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 3: Not the women.

910
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, one way ticket.

911
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: To laugh at that ball, one way ticket, I mean,

912
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: good lord. I don't know if they were unaware of that,

913
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: but that's pretty damning, I would think. Yet, the prosecutors

914
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: were still nervous about this case because it was largely circumstantial.

915
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: They were having a problem placing any of the remains

916
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: with the specific women, and he was not confessing, he

917
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 2: was not saying a word, and he had an excellent

918
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,399
Speaker 2: defense team. They were saying that he was dismissive of

919
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 2: the women who were all testifying against him. He was

920
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: them cackling hens, saying, you absolutely have no evidence, his

921
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: defense team was saying the prosecutors, even though they had

922
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: thousands of pages documenting all of the circumstantial evidence. There's ashes,

923
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: there's clothing, fragments, neighbors saying there's a stinky smell. Even

924
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: they had the oven that they believe he used to

925
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: burn the body. It's still just not a lot of

926
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: hard evidence aside from these bits of remains. And it

927
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: doesn't help that he is sneering and very arrogant in court,

928
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 2: and he had.

929
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: A habit of mocking women in the audience.

930
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: So he sounds like a terrible person and one that

931
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: sounds like he could actually get away with this, you know.

932
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 3: Once he's caught. Of course, now he's assessing the actions

933
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 3: that he took with these victims, and it sounds like

934
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 3: he's very confident that he hid them and what he

935
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: did to them very well. So now there's that ego

936
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 3: aspect to him. Now that ego is emer urging out

937
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 3: of his personality there in court, and that's going to

938
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 3: play against him in terms of what the jurors how

939
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 3: they're assessing his personality. In many ways, it sounds like

940
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 3: he's coming off as a narcissist, and this is often

941
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: a characteristic of somebody who is a psychopath.

942
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you his lawyers did something that I

943
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: think is fairly smart. They said, listen, we don't know

944
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 2: what happened to these women. There are a host of

945
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: things that could have happened. On re has hinted that

946
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 2: maybe he sold them off as sex slaves or in

947
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: sex trafficking, which sounds terrible, but they're saying there are

948
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 2: a host of reasons why these women aren't around, and

949
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: which you don't want to do is send someone to

950
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 2: the guillotine, have them have their head chopped off, and

951
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 2: then have these women all walk through the doors later on,

952
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 2: and you've executed an innocent man. So it's the corpus delective.

953
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's part of that, but the prosecutor strategy is

954
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 3: going to remain on the core the circumstantial evidence. You know,

955
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 3: some of these women's IDs that he lured through this

956
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 3: Lonely Heart's ad were found on his premises. He's got

957
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: this black book diary of his communications with them. He's

958
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 3: still possessing their dresses and jewelry inside his house, and

959
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 3: you have human remains that are present on his property. Yep,

960
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 3: you know. And back in the day they couldn't associate

961
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 3: those human remains with any of the victims conclusively. But

962
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 3: when you start taking a look at the totality of

963
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 3: the circumstances. Most certainly some of these women met with

964
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: foul play at his hands.

965
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: Yep.

966
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 3: You know, now, could you prove all eleven women in

967
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 3: this day and age. Probably not, But back then it

968
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 3: was typical for them to have to deal with the

969
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: circumstantial case.

970
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: Right, And you're right about all of that.

971
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: And despite his dismissive behavior in court, despite the fact

972
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence and no smoking gun,

973
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: so to speak, he is found guilty on all charges,

974
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 2: all eleven murders, and he is sentenced to death through

975
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 2: the guillotine, which is just terrible to even think about.

976
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: Here's what I want to talk to you a little

977
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: bit about without being to judge on my end. So

978
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: let me tell you what the audience who came, the spectators,

979
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 2: who came, the fans of Henri Lan Dru did. There

980
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: were four thousand pieces of fan mail to him, eight

981
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: hundred marriage proposals, terrible a listers came sat there watched

982
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 2: the trial. I continue to not understand that. And this

983
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: is the evidence I present to people all the time,

984
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: that this fervor that we say we have, that's all

985
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 2: of a sudden new over true crime is not new

986
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 2: eight hundred marriage proposals to this disgusting serial killer who

987
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: preyed on women.

988
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 3: No, and times haven't changed, Richard Ramirez. You know, the

989
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 3: Nightstalker was receiving the same type of fan mail. This

990
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 3: is something that is seen over and over again. So

991
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 3: it just shows that even though the era has changed,

992
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 3: we as humans have not.

993
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 2: Now, this happened in November of nineteen twenty one, and

994
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: there were a huge amount of people who wanted to

995
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: get into this trial. All a listers, actors, authors, princesses

996
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: wanted to see this guy. What do you think it is?

997
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: Is it as stupid as the bad Boy? Is it

998
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: that he's a freak of nature? And we don't understand

999
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 2: how somebody could do this and still be seemingly normal.

1000
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 2: Do you think that's it because you don't see this

1001
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 2: kind of a lineup of people sitting in a galley

1002
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 2: at a normal, you know, humdrum murder trial.

1003
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 3: I think different people have different motivations. There's going to

1004
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 3: be individuals just because of the notoriety of this case.

1005
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 3: I imagine it was huge in the press, and so

1006
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 3: now they gravitate towards that case. They want to be

1007
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 3: a part of history, just even present to see him

1008
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 3: in person. There's that aspect. These celebrities, some of them

1009
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 3: may have that part of it, but also it's being seen,

1010
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 3: you know, it's just kind of here I am. I

1011
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 3: want just to further my pr aspect those individuals, these

1012
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 3: women that are doing the marriage proposals. The bad boy,

1013
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 3: for sure is I think some of it. But I'm

1014
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 3: thinking in particular of one serial killer who ended up

1015
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 3: marrying a local school teacher after he was convicted of

1016
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 3: killing three women. I have copies of the letters she

1017
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 3: wrote to the warden where he was housed, having to

1018
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 3: explain that she understood each of the crimes that he

1019
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 3: had been convicted of, but that she still wanted to

1020
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 3: marry him. And it was obvious reading the letters as

1021
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 3: well as looking into her that she suffered from extreme

1022
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 3: self esteem issues. And I saw this as almost a

1023
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 3: safe relationship for her. You know, somebody that was corresponding

1024
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 3: with her that she met face to face, but there

1025
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 3: was still that distance. He's in prison. Yeah, it was like, oh,

1026
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 3: you know, this is somebody who's going this is pretty

1027
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 3: much probably the only relationship I can get. And even

1028
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 3: though as the crimes he was convicted of is horrifying.

1029
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 3: There was a safety because he's separated from her and

1030
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 3: she just needed that relationship to help fulfill herself well.

1031
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: He is executed in nineteen twenty two. His severed head

1032
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: was memorialized in exhibit at the Museum of Death in

1033
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: Hollywood and the Oven, where a lot of this allegedly

1034
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: took place. Where he disposed of these bodies went to

1035
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 2: a wax museum in Paris before it was purchased by

1036
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: a wealthy Frenchman. Why you would buy this, I have

1037
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 2: no idea, and I think it's disgusting. Cob It's macab

1038
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 2: and this man is now legendary. He's been embedded into

1039
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 2: the history of death in France and is very well known.

1040
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,439
Speaker 2: Two pieces of information I like about this case. Number

1041
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 2: one is that these two women, these two sisters, were

1042
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: fierce advocates for their sisters, and he might not have

1043
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: been caught had they not continually gone and knocked on

1044
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 2: the mayor's door and said, I don't care what you think,

1045
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 2: this needs to be taken care of. So you've got

1046
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 2: these two women, who I think are the heroes, and

1047
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 2: then you have shoddy police work. The journalists that I

1048
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 2: mentioned to you. The more modern day journalist said that

1049
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: when police looked through Onree's garage, they found records that

1050
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: led them to believe that it was many, many more

1051
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 2: than eleven victims. They were saying there was evidence of

1052
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: up to seventy two people who he encountered in one

1053
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: way or the other during this time period, who you know,

1054
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 2: they could only identify eleven that they thought had gone missing,

1055
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 2: including the young man. So this is a case of

1056
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: somebody who might have killed many more people than he

1057
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 2: was executed for.

1058
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 3: And many of those people killed were possibly before he

1059
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 3: ever did that prison stint, before he was released, right

1060
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 3: because of World War One? Right? Yeah, I mean he's

1061
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,439
Speaker 3: in his mid forties, so he's operating as a con man.

1062
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 3: He's using his skill sets as a con man to

1063
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 3: lure women. I believe, based on what you've told me,

1064
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 3: is even though part of his motivation with these women

1065
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 3: as their financial assets, I think his primary motivation is

1066
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 3: he was a true serial killer, and he's probably either

1067
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 3: torturing them like a sexual sadist or somehow otherwise, you know,

1068
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 3: brutalizing them before he kills them in a sexual manner.

1069
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: And that journalist I spoke of agrees with you.

1070
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 2: He really believes that there's a lot more to this

1071
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 2: than financial because he could have attracted women who had

1072
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 2: many more finances, and he didn't. Let me ask you

1073
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 2: one last question that really is not necessary to get

1074
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 2: a conviction and not necessary to do a story, but

1075
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 2: something I'm curious about. We don't know how any of

1076
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 2: these people died. Let's just assume that we're right that

1077
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 2: at least eleven people died on that property, in that

1078
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 2: village in the countryside of France. Did the fact that

1079
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: they could prove that he had strangled these animals lead

1080
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 2: you to believe that that's probably what happened with the

1081
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 2: women or the men that he had dispatched also likely, Yes, Okay.

1082
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 3: What he's doing to the animals, he's not cutting them up,

1083
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 3: you know, like he's not taking a knife and torturing

1084
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 3: them and stabbing them. He's not using a gun. What

1085
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 3: he's doing to the animals is the reason he's strangling

1086
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 3: is that is what he likes to do. And so

1087
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 3: if he is killing these women in a fantasy motivated crime,

1088
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 3: he's going to do what he likes to do, and

1089
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 3: so those animals are insight into his fantasy. So I

1090
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 3: do think that in all likelihood he has sexually assaulted

1091
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 3: these women and killed them through strangulation.

1092
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 2: And what a terrible ending for women who we're just

1093
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 2: looking for companionship and support, that's what we're assuming and

1094
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: encountering this man who just doesn't seem like he was

1095
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: good from the very beginning. And then of course he's

1096
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 2: left behind a wife and four children and they're still

1097
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 2: chaos from the war. So I'm sorry to give you

1098
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 2: such a sad, depressing story. Not that any of our

1099
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 2: stories are lighthearted on this show on your birthday, but again,

1100
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: just repeating through history, vulnerable victims, vulnerable women, survivors, family

1101
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: members trying to help.

1102
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: Just all of it reverberates through history with.

1103
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 3: Us, and it underscores that these offenders are very good

1104
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 3: at identifying certain vulnerabilities that they can exploit. And that's

1105
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 3: what Henri did. He took advantage of the times, he

1106
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 3: took advantage of these women, these widows, and was intelligent

1107
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 3: and sophisticated enough to convince them that he was relationship worthy.

1108
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 3: In many ways, he is a true wolf in sheep's clothing.

1109
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: That's a good description.

1110
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: Well, I predict we will have many more wolves in

1111
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: sheep's clothing to come, and I look forward to bringing

1112
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: you another case next week. I hope you have a

1113
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 2: wonderful birthday. I hope I haven't been too much of

1114
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: a Debbie downer for you with this case. But boy,

1115
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 2: I like cases that make you think, and this really does.

1116
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me when we bring up a

1117
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: story and then I can just pick through my brain

1118
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 2: my little vault of all crimes that I have studied

1119
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: throughout history, and it's just like one after the other.

1120
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 2: They feel so similar because we are all so similar

1121
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: throughout history. So thank you for letting me remind myself

1122
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 2: of some other really important cases too.

1123
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're not a Debbie down for me. This

1124
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 3: is the world I live in, and.

1125
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: You just keep them coming, all right, I will. I'll

1126
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:15,439
Speaker 1: see you next week. Have a great day.

1127
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1128
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1129
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,959
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1130
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1131
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1132
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1133
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1134
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1135
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1136
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1137
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1138
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: Buried Bones.

1139
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1140
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decote

1141
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now, and.

1142
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1143
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now.

1144
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 3: M