WEBVTT - Todd Rundgren 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.160 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left SUTs podcast. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.200 My guest today is the one and only Todd run 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:20.520 Gray Todd good dap Here, Hi, Bob, how goes? It? Goes? 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.640 Pretty well? And then being locked up in this COVID era. 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:28.400 So you're going on this virtual tour this winter? Can 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:30.520 you tell us a little bit about that? Well? I 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.600 was supposed to be out this year in May and 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.280 June as part of my regular touring schedule, and then 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.480 that got moved to July and August. Then I got 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:47.000 moved to October November, then I got moved to next February, 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.440 and then when they moved it from February, I said, 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:53.920 all right, enough enough that would have been by the 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:55.360 time I go out on the road, it will be 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.920 two years since I've done a tour, and that's too 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.560 long a time for me. If I don't do it 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.080 with some regularity, I start to wonder if I can 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.600 do it. So I decided that I would uh do 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.240 this experiment, which is actually something that I've had in 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:17.920 mind for a while. The impetus for the idea has 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:22.479 to do with um with global climate change and how 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:26.240 it's affecting a transportation system, and I had already made 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.560 some um, pretty major adjustments in the way that I travel. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.000 Instead of doing the usual major markets, a couple of 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.480 minor markets, major market, driving the whole way, we started 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:43.480 playing multiple nights in major markets and kind of encouraging 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.160 people from the minor markets to travel, and I would 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:51.560 travel less. As a matter of fact, we travel maximum 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.520 under that schedule, probably two days a week, but it 0:01:55.560 --> 0:02:03.720 involves flying instead of driving. And I was finding myself, um, 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:10.240 evermore often on panic mode with my travel agent because 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.640 a flight got canceled or or fatally delayed or something 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.360 like that. And that would usually be due to an 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.520 airport being shut down because of a weather event. And 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.639 that's when I started to think, Um, this is going 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.680 to happen more often. How, what's the backup? You know, 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.679 how can you deliver a show? Uh if the physical 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.600 world won't allow you to do that? Uh? And that's 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.880 when I first started thinking about it. But I had 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.440 not at the time considered the possibility that the audience 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.440 wouldn't be able to make it to the show. So 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.880 that's how we wound up with this full virtual tour. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.520 The fact that nobody can actually come come out and 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:03.520 so instead of me, um, hitting uh the places that 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:05.680 I would have played, but maybe presenting it in a 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.360 way that's still resembled a live show. In other words, 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.760 do it in a club or a theater that has 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:16.200 video projection. Now the audience can't go to that club 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.880 or that video theater. The whole thing has to be 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:25.120 home delivered. And so that's what we're doing. We're doing shows, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.400 each localized to a market that we would have played, 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:34.400 and uh allowing well pretty much allowing anyone to go 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.600 to any of those shows, but for the markets that 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:42.440 are locked out because prior agreements, and each show will 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.520 have the flavor of the place that we would have played. Wait. Wait, 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.920 just so I understand. So the shows are geo fenced, 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.240 is what the original publicity say? Are you saying if 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.560 the show is in San Francisco, someone from New York 0:03:55.560 --> 0:04:00.800 can go? Uh? Yes, the geo in sing We had 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:07.360 the paradigm a little upside down at first. Um we thought, okay, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.720 geo fencing will involve determining all of the you know, 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:19.359 the IP addresses that fall within a certain municipality, let's say, 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:24.720 and then only allow people who had corresponding IP address. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.360 Is to buy a ticket to those particular markets. As 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.560 it turns out, you know, there are a lot of 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.200 people who might be just on the other line of 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.400 the other side of the fence, and it's a hard fence, 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:44.679 you know, it's not like uh not like a fence 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.520 that you can see through. Put it that way, you 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.400 either get it or you don't get the show. And 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.159 a lot of people who might have driven to a 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.680 show in a particular town suddenly couldn't get to the 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.800 show via the geo fencing. And we realized the only 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:04.239 use of it at this particular point is to protect 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.719 those markets that I've made prior agreements not to play in. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.560 So uh, you can be in one of those markets 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.159 that I didn't agree to play in, and then pick 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.360 any city that you would like to be in, with 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:25.040 the caveat that we will be as performers. We will 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:30.479 be pretending we're in that city. Okay, certainly fans are 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.480 they just want to hear they can go into any 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.920 market and watch the show. In many cases, fans would 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.839 watch multiple shows. Let's go back to something you said earlier. 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.640 You said, well, you don't know if you still can 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.160 do it. Is that emotionally is that physically is that 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:51.440 musical ability. Well, you know, there is a controversy about 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:58.479 mask wearing and social distancing and all that, and we're 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:03.000 kind of on the side of playing its safe. We're 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.839 creating our own bubble when we go um to actually 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:13.040 do this show, and we fortunately, because we're doing it 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.400 this way, don't have to get into the controversy about 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.400 wearing or not wearing a mask at a certain gig. 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.480 The I think the thing is that in most cities 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:32.320 they have relatively stricter gathering policies as opposed to rural 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:37.279 areas that may have much more relaxed gathering policies. So, 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:42.320 for instance, we were operating on the assumption, because we're 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.560 we'll be doing the shows in Chicago, we're operating on 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:53.080 the assumption originally that we could have up to people 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.440 live people in an audience, and of course they would 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.320 all have to be masked and isolated and that sort 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.919 of thing or distance not necessarily isolated, but six ft 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:11.720 apart at least. And then there was a surge and 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:17.320 that got reduced to like ten people. Uh So we 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.200 don't know actually, by the time we get to doing 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.120 the shows exactly how many live bodies will be allowed 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:30.559 to have in the space in our performance space. UH. 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.559 And that would be the same probably in any major city. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.640 We would have no idea until you until the day 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.240 of the show exactly how many people would be allowed 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:44.680 in the venue. So there is that, and then there 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.000 is the fact that we are, uh, we are proactive 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:56.040 about about continuing to use suppressive strategies while we're still 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:00.000 in a pandemic, even though it will be a February 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.520 you are in March for us, We're not counting on 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.040 the fact that vaccines would be available to us or 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.040 the major part of the audience. Okay, but earlier you 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.760 said if you don't go out that regularly on tour, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.040 irrelevant of COVID, you're not sure you can still do it. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:22.120 What exactly did you mean by that? I don't go 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.160 out and just stand in front of a microphone with 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:29.720 acoustic guitar and strum and sing all the ballots. My 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:35.520 shows are even nowadays as much physical work as I've 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:39.440 ever done in a two hours span. Uh. If not 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:45.959 only requires um, the singing, and the movement. Uh. Some 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:51.800 shows require extracurricular above and beyond things like when I 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:56.040 do uh A wizard, A true Star, which was supposed 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.240 to be half of the show that we were going 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:05.880 to do this year. Uh. I go through how many 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.680 was it? It was twelve costume changes in an hour. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.320 It was like every ten minutes, I had a different 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:16.400 costume change. Yeah, I've seen that show, right, and that's 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.320 the ship, you know, that's the show that hopefully next October, 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.440 half the show will be that and half the show 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:26.000 will be the Individualists tour, which uh, which I did 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.880 uh in Okay, So there's a lot of physical activity. 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.920 Do you like performing live or is it more for 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:39.720 the revenue or what what's driving these tours? I really 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:44.679 like it. I enjoy it. I always feel, you know, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.480 worn out, a little bit beat up after a show, 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.160 but very satisfied. It's two hours of aerobics. You know, 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.880 it's all because you're singing the whole time. So it's 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.160 all about you know, you're how much wind you have, 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.160 you know, and utilizing uh, especially when you're singing and 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.199 run around the stage at the same time. I just 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:11.080 feel like more fit afterwards, and I enjoy I enjoy singing. 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:13.320 There was a time in my life where I was 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.280 terrified to sing, and as time has gone on, my 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:23.360 voice has actually kind of aged well and in some 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.439 ways gotten a little bit better, and my stamina has 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.840 gotten better. I understand my voice a little better, so 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.240 I can use it more effectively. So I really enjoy 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:39.040 the singing. I enjoy the singing. I enjoy the interactions 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.480 with the audience. And to what degree does the audience 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.720 affect that particular performance. Would you change anything, whether it 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.760 be song selection or delivery? Uh, as a result of 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.840 where the audiences at visa VU. Well, this is not 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:00.560 that kind of show in that um sort of a 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.439 review and it's got to flow to it. Uh. There 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.840 are shows that I've done where I will just call 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.240 the songs out to the band. You know, we won't 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.880 have a set list, and I'll see how I feel 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.440 and see what the audience response is like, and then 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.560 you know, figure out where to go from there. We 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:24.120 have a virtual audience as well. There will be a 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.920 number of these video panels with people's faces on them. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.520 You may have seen such a thing at the NBA 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:37.840 Games or America's Got Talent, where the any TV show 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.480 where they think the audience is a significant part of 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.480 the of the process. So we'll have that. We'll be 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.840 able to see people's faces, and people can buy essentially 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.320 one of those seats, which will be the equivalent of 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.840 like the first three or four rows of the gig, 0:11:55.559 --> 0:12:00.000 and that will be interspersed with any with the number 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.880 or of live bodies that we're allowed to have in 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.880 the venue at the time. Uh, you can figure that. 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:13.120 You can assume that in a in a multicast thing 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.680 like we're doing, there'll be a certain amount of round 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.480 trip time we do an event like I say, move, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.600 and it takes some number of milliseconds to get to 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.240 the audience who are out there somewhere, and then any 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.440 response they have to that, we'll take some number of 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.600 milliseconds to get back, and it may not be the 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:39.400 same for everybody. So, uh, there's a little bit of 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.679 lag in the audience response, uh, in the virtual audience response, 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.760 which is why it's good to have live bodies there 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.360 because they respond instantaneously to whatever you're doing. And also 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.800 it's you know, in a certain sense maybe easier to 0:12:53.880 --> 0:13:00.240 hear them because the people in the virtual audience, while 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.559 they have a screen to themselves, you know, with their 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.360 head on it, all the audio from the audience is 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.840 being mixed into one feet and so you know, we 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.520 couldn't pick out you know, if someone has yelling at 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.079 woo or something like that, we wouldn't be able to 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:20.600 actually pick out who it is. UM. And so you know, 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.040 it's great always to have some at least some live 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.040 bodies in the audience. I mean, we we enjoy playing 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.640 a sound check and having the people who worked the 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:34.040 bar applaud for us. That's good. Okay, you live in 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:39.319 Hawaii and when this was set up, your manager said, Okay, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.760 it's two hours behind or ahead, depending on how you 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.280 want to look at it. And Todd doesn't start until noon. 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:50.959 Are you a late night person? Is that basically your schedule? Um? 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:57.880 It is. Uh. The daytime can be full of various 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.000 activities and interactions and the coming in and out of 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.720 the house all the time, and it's often not until 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.160 very late at night that UM when all of the 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:14.720 external distractions subside, I get a chance to really think 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.480 hard about all of the things that I've involved in 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:23.360 what it involves from me uh boring down into the 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:30.600 further details of of things like UH like me just 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:35.440 realizing the other night that I needed a musical director 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.000 because the one who usually UH is in the band 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.400 is not able to travel with us. And that's a 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.760 significant thing to slip my mind, because I have so 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.480 many things to worry about, so many details in terms 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.960 of the show. I can't be attending to everyone's issues 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.800 regarding their own particular part. That's just one of the 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.520 things that occurs to me when everything gets a little quieter. 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.080 Let's say hypothetically everybody in your house was out of town, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.600 you had no assistance whatever, and you had to start 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.680 you during the day, would you be as productive or 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.720 is there something about later in the day and the 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:20.520 darkness that loosens things up it maybe, uh, it may 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.040 be the darkness. We have a rare moment of quiet here, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.240 as you may be able to detect because living out 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.440 here in the in the countryside as I do, it 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:37.280 seems to be NonStop landscaping. Somebody is running a lawnmower 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.720 or a weed whacker somewhere, and and the noise doesn't 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.840 abate until like until sundown, you know, until it is 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:50.240 actually dark. So even if the house was empty, there's 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:55.720 likely some sort of droning noise or something that disturbs 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.720 the quiet. As a matter of fact, it isn't even 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.200 that quiet at night because like TOAs and frogs in 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.640 the pond out here. They'll go off, but eventually I 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.480 can tune them out, you know, and just kind of 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:14.000 think about the things that I need to think about. Okay, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:18.200 why Hawaii. I live on the island of Kauai. And 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.400 I started coming here and like the mid seventies just 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.400 to get some peace and quiet for myself, and all 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.040 through the seventies and eighties kept coming here. And in 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:36.160 the early nineties, I had a video animation studio that 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.040 I was running, and we had a big deliverable and 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:44.240 I took everyone two out here to Kauai after that 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.840 deliverable was made, and it was about eight months after 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:53.480 Hurricane Hurricane called Hurricane and Nikki, which was like a 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.440 hundred and eighty mile and our winds and the I 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.400 went right over the island and completely flattened it. And 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.400 we were out are staying in a condo because none 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.639 of the hotels were open. And I thought, well, I 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:09.680 had always fantasized about living out here. If if there's 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.720 gonna be any affordable real estate opportunities, this would be 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.639 the time, you know, because everyone's been blown off the island. 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.240 So looked around and looked around and was about to 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.680 give up, and then found the property that I'm living 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:31.359 on now. And it took uh moving mountains essentially to 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.600 get it. A couple of things had to coincide, and 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.040 did finally get it, but didn't build on it. And 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.920 then it was the mid nineties and we were living 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:50.720 in Saucelito and we're pondering on it because life and 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:57.960 sauce Lito is getting less idyllic. For one thing, Silicon Valley, 0:17:58.080 --> 0:17:59.960 which you know, I moved out in the mid eighties 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.760 and it was still like huge fund the whole hacker 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.680 scene and stuff like you would I would go to hackers, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:12.040 hackers conventions and hacking. It meant, you know, just doing 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:17.919 the most you know, balls out uh computer coding and 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.160 stuff like that. It wasn't necessarily about breaking into other 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.280 people's systems. As a matter of fact, there was no 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.880 Internet yet so or at least nobody was using it. 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:32.320 So it was a lot of fun. And then you know, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.760 it became a gold mine and all of those engineers, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.800 all those fun people got replaced by investment bankers, and 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.000 all the musicians and artists and stuff. They used to 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.399 live in Mill Valley, they all got pushed out by 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.119 investment bankers, you know, who would you know, be on 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.040 their cell phones driving ninety miles an hour through the 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:59.040 Waldh Grade and so. And at the same time, this 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:03.640 is when some series is gangster wrap is happening, uh, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.080 the kind where people get get killed. Right next to 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:12.080 Saucelito is a town called uh Marine City. Not a town, 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:17.480 it's a development actually, and that's where Tupac Shakur came from. 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.119 And we're living in Saucelito right next door, and my uh, 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.480 my adolescent son, you know, my fourteen year old son 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:33.840 is telling everyone that he's in Tupacs Posse, you know, 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.800 and there we hear about gang shooting and stuff in 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:41.199 Oakland is happening all the time, his gang rivalries. But 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.800 we fortunately find out at the same time that my 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:50.080 oldest son is something of a baseball prodigy, and we say, okay, 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.399 what we're gonna do. We're gonna find a baseball school 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.680 and Honolulu for him to go to and get him 0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:00.400 out of this gangster scene, you know, and we'll moved 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:05.120 to Kauaii and get away from essentially, you know, the 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.200 investment bankers and the gangsters and and start again. And 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.320 that's essentially what we did. Okay, I'm sure your kids 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:19.399 weren't happy about that, while somewhere and somewheren't. Um younger 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.199 kids weren't so old as you know, as to be 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.760 as bothered by it. Okay, So do you ever get 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:32.520 island fever? Up until now, never like, I've never spent 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.200 a lot of time like dreaming about going to other places. 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:41.600 But uh, yeah, I spent so much time on the road. 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.720 I mean in the past couple of years, especially since 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.000 about two thousand and ten, when I started touring with 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.840 the All Star Band, and that became like half of 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.159 my touring life, and then my own thing was the 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.480 other half of my touring life. And then other sorts 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:01.480 of events like appearing with the Metropole Orchestra and Amsterdam 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.280 or other a little one off things, I might find 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.680 myself on the road as long as ten months a year. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.919 And at that point, when I realized I had been 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:14.399 on the road ten months a year, I said, this 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.000 has got to stop. We have to sort of, you know, 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.720 reverse this. Eventually, my stint with the All Star Band ended, 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.360 so that gave me back more time. But through all 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.600 of that, I, you know, I was always pining to 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.600 be home. You know, it's like I don't get enough 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.880 time at home. I don't get enough time to forget 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.399 that I've got another flight to take off island again. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:44.800 So when I got back home in February from a 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:50.720 rock cruise that we did, sounds scary, doesn't it. It 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.280 was in the Caribbean, so I hadn't hit there yet. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:22:01.199 But I got home and was expecting to be back 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:06.000 in uh, back on the mainland in April, rehearsing for 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:10.160 my show that would have started in May and gone 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:15.280 through June. And suddenly that wasn't happening. That got moved, 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.119 and then I realized, Okay, I'll be home until July 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:20.399 at least. And then I realized I'll be home until 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:22.960 the fall. And then I realized I'll be home until 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:27.600 next year. So that's when I started getting more serious 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:31.240 about this virtual tourt thing. You know. Yeah, now I 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:33.720 have like in my head a whole list of places 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:37.480 where I'd like to go as soon as I can, 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:40.840 as soon as I can go there, and as they'll 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.359 soon as they'll allow. Americans, they're okay, are you the 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.480 type of person who's been around the world and see 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.480 nothing other than hotel rooms or stages or when you 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.000 go to places, do you seek out the cultural elements 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:58.880 you know, food, friends. That's the reason why we're localizing 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:05.439 all of these shows. Uh. We the traveling is the 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:08.480 worst part, you know, that's trying to get there is 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:13.879 the worst part. Being there is usually pretty great, whether aside. 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.520 You know, but you know all of these places that 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.919 were about to play virtually we you know, we know 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.560 them in a sense. We know fans and those cities 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.120 who show up to every show. Uh. There are walks 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:32.520 that you like to take, landmarks that you know, restaurants 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.639 you like to eat at. It's great at being in 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:37.760 some of these cities. It's great having a day off 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:42.399 in some of these cities. And uh that's part of 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.320 why we're you know, working on this self hypnosis exercise 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:49.920 so that we actually believe when we do the show 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:54.520 that we're in that city, that we're in Buffalo or 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:59.000 Baltimore or wherever it is that we're playing. I don't 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:03.080 have all the dates in my ahead. Okay. Now, as 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:04.720 you say you were working on the road up to 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.040 ten months a year, you're someone has had a lot 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:12.480 of recording success. Not only is yourself as an act 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:16.520 but producing other records at this point, if I told 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.440 you you couldn't go on the road ever again, economically, 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:22.320 does it work for you or do you need to 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:25.280 work to you know, pay the bills? Probably at some 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:30.680 point I'd have to work. But I'm not in relative 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:33.920 to like me, which is like, I have this weird 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:36.800 thing about money, and so I never and never have 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:40.600 known how much I have unless it's all in my pocket, 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:43.320 you know, and I can count it. But I have 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:45.680 had since the time I had any money at all, 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.840 I've had an accountant or a or a business manager 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:52.880 who worries about all that, And I said, don't tell 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:54.920 me how much money I have. Just tell me how 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:57.199 hard I have to work, or tell me that I 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.520 can take some time off, you know, whatever that's I 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:04.280 need to know. And there have been points in which 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:10.359 I've been well underwater because of various circumstances, like after 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:18.720 the um, after the mortgage collapse in this house that 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:23.680 I'm living in, we finished it in and then suddenly 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:27.520 all of the equity and it disappeared, and I was 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:33.680 holding a mortgage and in a world of collapsed finances 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:36.840 that was like three times the actual value of the house. 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:42.080 At that point. So I've had you know, I've had 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.639 ups and downs. At this particular point in my life, 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:50.600 I'm actually doing pretty well, ironically enough. And a lot 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:56.120 of that has to do with um, uh, with regression 0:25:56.160 --> 0:26:02.320 of rights. Um. You know there's some found in the background. Yeah, 0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:05.560 the freaking frog, and I will shoot him. It's a frog, 0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:08.400 then we can leave. It's part of living in Hawaii. Okay. Yeah, 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.399 it's a frog in my not in my throat, in 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:14.520 my pond over here. Okay, tell us about your situational 0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:19.520 reversion of rights by some act of Congress or multiple 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:24.160 acts of Congress. It used to be that, um, if 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:29.000 you recorded for a record label, the masters would belong 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:31.960 to them in perpetuity. You know, you would have them 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:36.440 for infinity. Uh. Same thing with certain publishing rights and 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:41.879 things like that, and oft an artists. If they didn't 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:45.520 feel like those rights were being handled properly or they 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:48.080 felt that they should rightfully own them, they would have 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:52.760 to sue whoever owned them. It was a big ongoing mess. 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:57.520 So by an act of Congress, uh, they made a 0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:01.240 statutory that after a certain number of years, like thirty 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:05.600 thirty five years or something like that. Uh, the masters 0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:07.560 could revert to you, and all you have to do 0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:10.800 is make a request to the master owner, uh and 0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.240 tell them, like in a like a year before, say 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:16.840 I am going to get I'd like to get my 0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:21.479 masters back. And what often happens, especially if you have 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:26.000 a big catalog like me, a deep catalog, is they 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:29.960 will say, well, we'd rather not um give up those rights. 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:32.639 We'd rather keep those rights. We think there's value in 0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:37.040 them that we can realize, and so we will advance you. 0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:41.240 An I've seen amount of money to retain the master 0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:44.520 rights or retain the publishing rights or whatever. And a 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:49.119 bunch of those deals because I started in the sixties, 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:53.199 you know a lot of that stuff UH came do 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.600 and continues do we come do with every year? Because 0:27:56.600 --> 0:28:01.840 I continue to make records every year? So uh, these 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:04.760 things would have been minor annuities or me off setting 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:08.080 advances that I had previously taken. And now they are 0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:15.439 all giant. Now it's my retirement. You know. Now I 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:17.679 have more money in the bank than I've ever had 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:23.760 all because of these uh reversions did I say regressions? Reversions? 0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:26.560 You know, things reverting back in the deals that you 0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:30.119 make around them. So I would not be in dire 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:37.040 straight right away, but I still feel the need to 0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:41.880 remain involved in uh, in making records for myself and 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:47.000 for others, in the sense that I haven't learned everything 0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:49.240 there is, and as long as there's still something for 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:53.160 me to learn, I am going to continue to UM 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:57.040 to explore the medium. Okay, now, you've produced a lot 0:28:57.040 --> 0:29:00.479 of very successful records, the biggest being Out of Hell 0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:02.840 is one of the most successful records of all time. 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:07.000 But you sold your producer royalties, right, so ay, why 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:09.360 did you do that? And be do you regret it? 0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:12.800 And see if you sold your other producer royalties. That's 0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:15.960 the only instance when in which I, you know, had 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:21.880 someone buy me out. Uh. When sometime around when when 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:27.720 Columbia became Sony, Sony brought out Columbia Records, Uh, Bad 0:29:27.720 --> 0:29:30.240 out of Hell was on a subsidiary of Epic, which 0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:38.240 was a part of the Columbia Records umbrella. UM, there 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:41.680 was a lot of people talking fast and loose about 0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:44.600 how many Bad Out of Hell records have been sold, 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:53.400 and uh, Meatloaf and Stimon and their management or their 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:58.320 accountants or whatever thought, well, these brags don't equal, you know, 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:01.120 the amount of money that we've got and paid, so 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:05.480 we want to audit the label. Auditing is a thing 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:10.280 that um. Auditing is a thing that artists do when 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:12.440 they think that they hadn't been paid all the money 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:15.280 that they wrote from a label, and it involves lawyers 0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:18.440 and accountants, and you have to spend money to make money, 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:21.640 and you don't know whether you actually will because maybe 0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:24.320 the audit turns out that, yeah, you have been paid 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:30.080 all the royalties you wrote. But um. They wanted to 0:30:30.120 --> 0:30:34.600 meet Loaf and Stemon and their management wanted to have 0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:38.200 Sony audited and asked if I wanted to participate in it, 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:41.600 which meant that I would be also be playing lawyer's fees, 0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:45.120 et cetera. You know, for however long that dragged out, 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.360 and quite obviously we'll be talking about a lot of money. 0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:51.560 So I said, I don't want to be involved in 0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:56.760 this UM. So I offered meat Loaf, uh my points 0:30:56.760 --> 0:30:58.320 on the record, I said, do you want to buy 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:03.960 me out? And he demurred, And so then I went 0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:06.360 to Sony and said, do you want to buy me out? 0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:09.480 Because they'd have to pay me the the producer's royalties, 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:12.840 and they said, sure, we'll buy you out, and what 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.360 did I do with that money? I bought the property 0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:19.160 I'm living on today. Do I regret that? Not for 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:29.640 a second. Okay, all your other records usually a producers 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:32.960 paid from record one. Do you think you're being accounted 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:38.200 to properly? Um? I got to the point because after 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:43.200 after something anything, I always had a studio of my own. 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:46.400 Verson was Secret Sound in New York, and then I 0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:51.120 had a studio when I moved up state. So I 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:55.880 always had access to a studio, or I could get 0:31:55.880 --> 0:32:00.320 a studio UM for a pretty good rate, and a 0:32:00.320 --> 0:32:02.520 lot of the costs for making a record would go 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:06.440 and go into studio costs, the hourly cost of of 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:09.200 renting a studio, and the longer that an artist will 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:12.040 work on the record, the more the cost might soar. 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:18.440 So the deal that I would make is it with 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:20.800 the label would be give me all the money for 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:24.440 the record, all the money the budget for the record, 0:32:25.200 --> 0:32:30.760 including my producers advance, and it would be the six 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:35.040 figure lump sum of money, and so whatever I didn't 0:32:35.080 --> 0:32:40.440 spend on making the record was my producer's advance. But 0:32:40.560 --> 0:32:45.280 all of that would be you know, would be uh 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:47.200 taken off the tip that all of that had to 0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:52.560 be amortized before anybody would see further royalties. The only 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.840 way you get royalties from record one is if is 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:57.720 if you never took an advance on anything. You know, 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:00.160 at first have to defray the advance and then you 0:33:00.200 --> 0:33:03.800 start making royalties. And because I had this kind of 0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:07.720 control over the process, it turned out to be uh, 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:10.600 very desirable for a lot of labels, especially if they 0:33:10.600 --> 0:33:12.840 thought the artist was going to go into the studio 0:33:12.880 --> 0:33:16.120 and start ditthering away, you know and running up the 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:20.800 tab you know, because nobody was actually you know, keeping 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:24.400 a firm hand on the tiller. And I always had 0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:27.920 impetus to do that because I knew it was coming 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:30.920 out of whatever would be my producer's advance. So it 0:33:31.000 --> 0:33:35.840 kind of worked out for everybody in that sense. Um. 0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:39.200 But that that was in the old days. That's the 0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:44.440 old record label days. That doesn't exist anymore that much. Yeah, 0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:46.080 But as I see some of these records, you did 0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:49.920 obviously earned out. We're an American man. We can go 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:52.680 on and not do you get paid on those records today? 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:57.160 Only if they ever sold anything? Uh well, some of 0:33:57.200 --> 0:34:00.360 these records sold a lot. Yeah, so probably no, I 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:03.280 did not get paid, But that was. That was the 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:07.880 very first. That was the first time that I found 0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:11.200 a band and produced their records for bears Will Records. 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:15.319 And yes, quite obviously it uh, it didn't sell a lot. 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:17.560 Wait wait, wait what what what record? What record? Are 0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.960 we talking about? American Dream? I'm sorry, the American Dream 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.319 record that was the first got my Americans mixed up. 0:34:23.840 --> 0:34:29.359 My manager was Albert Grossman and it was Albert Grossman's label, Bearsville, 0:34:29.640 --> 0:34:33.160 So I had no idea what I was getting paid. It's, 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.919 you know, my manager negotiating with the label and they're 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:39.600 both the same person. So I had no idea what, 0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:41.920 you know, what I would be paid for it, no 0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:44.399 idea what the budget for it was, what they spent 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:46.640 for it. But we did it the old fashioned way. 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:50.840 We went into into a commercial studio and paid the 0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:53.600 hourly rate, came up with a record, and didn't take 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:57.279 awful long. Then you didn't spend months making records in 0:34:57.320 --> 0:35:04.000 those days unless you were the bands. But eventually I 0:35:04.000 --> 0:35:06.120 began to figure out, you know, when I have my 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:09.239 own studio that you know, I could take over you 0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:13.160 know a greater part of the process. Relieve everybody of 0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:17.200 worrying about how much time we were spending in the studio. Indeed, 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:20.000 once I moved to act into the studio, we more 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:22.480 or less owned it. No one else could come in. 0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:25.560 And that was a rarity as well, you know, to 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:29.000 have your own studio and to completely occupy it twenty 0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:33.440 four hours a day. So tell us about Albert Grossman 0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:36.719 thumbs upper, thumbs down, and what was his personality like that? 0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:42.439 You saw the legend in the business. Albert um did 0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:46.200 a lot for me. I mean he sort of made me, 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:49.480 made me what I am in some ways, and then 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:53.720 in the end he screwed me. And that's Albert Grossman, 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:56.400 you know, I mean asked Bob Dylan. So tell us 0:35:56.400 --> 0:35:58.719 how he screwed you in the end. It was it 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:01.080 says he was notorious for this kind of stuff. He 0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:06.719 really valued more than anything publishing, uh, ownership or control 0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:11.120 of the songs, even more than the actual recordings themselves. 0:36:11.920 --> 0:36:18.240 And uh it was my last contractual album for bears 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:23.080 Full Records, and he only participated the publishing as long 0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:27.560 as I was making records for Bearsville. So if my 0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:31.759 relationship with bears Will ended, it also ended my publishing relationship. 0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.640 And so I did the last contractual album it was 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:40.359 called Acapella, and delivered it to Bearsville and I heard 0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:45.040 nothing back. And then eventually I started to say, what's 0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:46.960 going on? Have you have you set a release date 0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:49.160 for this record? And then no, we haven't said a 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:51.480 release date, and Albert said, well, I'm not going to 0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:56.200 release this record, and I thought, what's what in particular 0:36:56.280 --> 0:37:00.200 is wrong with this record? Uh? And then he eyed 0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:02.440 to me and said Warner Brothers didn't want to release it. 0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:05.040 And it took me a couple of weeks to get 0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:07.279 ahold of MO Austin, and then I finally got him 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:09.200 on the phone. He said, I've never heard this record. 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:12.279 I didn't even know you had a record, you know, 0:37:13.600 --> 0:37:18.240 so uh And so the jig was up at that point. 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:20.840 And realized that, you know, he was sticking it to 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:25.239 me to get uh more publishing. So we did is 0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:29.000 he negotiated a three album deal with Warner Brothers, and 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:32.759 he got a publishing for those three albums, and then 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:36.680 he agreed to release Acapella. And I never spoke to 0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:40.239 him again after that. Do you think you would have 0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:44.480 been successful as you are if you hadn't met Albert Grossman? 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:48.520 Possibly not. I was just living at that at the time, 0:37:48.560 --> 0:37:51.080 I was living with cloth Ears in the East Village, 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.360 and I was making no music at all. I was 0:37:56.520 --> 0:38:00.399 designing lights in a in a little disc get tech. 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:03.839 I was doing anything I could to make any kind 0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:07.759 of money or or just stay alive. And I was 0:38:07.840 --> 0:38:13.200 living off the kindness of others. And I was hanging 0:38:13.200 --> 0:38:17.600 out as Steve Paul's the scene, hoping something musical might happen. 0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:20.279 I would go all all the jam sessions, you know, 0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:24.839 maybe a band would happen, something like that. And then 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:32.279 I got contacted by the partner of the of the 0:38:32.320 --> 0:38:36.759 guy who managed the NAZ. He was he and the 0:38:36.760 --> 0:38:39.960 guy John Curland who managed the NAZ. They sort of 0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:47.120 discovered us. But before the NAZ broke up, he quit, 0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:51.799 you know, he split up with with our manager and 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:58.880 went to work for Albert Grossman. And Albert Grossman said, my, uh, 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:03.680 my roster here is pretty gray. They're all like artists 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.160 who you know, they're like folk artists, and here it 0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:12.839 is like, so I need somebody, We need some young 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:17.359 blood in here, and you know, any young blood. And 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:20.120 he had watched me sort of take over the production 0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:23.320 of the NAZ albums and thought, well, that's pretty impressive 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:26.000 for a young guy. Let's see what he can do. 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:31.000 So I was invited to start working for the Grossman organization, 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:36.759 and at first I was just doing engineering and a 0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:42.279 little production, and I was very successful at it. And 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:46.560 then after I had done a few projects, I asked 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:48.480 for a budget to do a vanity record on my 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:52.160 own because I was still writing music. And that turned 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.319 out to be run, the first solo record that I did, 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.320 and it accidentally had a hit record on it. Okay, 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:03.960 why are there multiple iteration of that record? Uh? We 0:40:04.000 --> 0:40:08.799 did a test pressing and it became apparent that the 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.120 sound was much louder on one side than the other, 0:40:12.560 --> 0:40:16.799 because the volume of of an LP had to do 0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:21.759 with how much content was actually on it, which is 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:27.200 why I like led Zeppelin records only lasted minutes. You know, 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:30.759 they'd have three songs on the side and the whole 0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:36.919 side would last, you know, sixteen minutes or something like that. 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:41.360 So if you wanted your records to sound loud, you 0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:44.239 had to put less music on them. But I had 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:47.080 put too much music on the B side, and so 0:40:47.120 --> 0:40:48.919 we realized I had to edit it, and we took 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:52.840 three songs and edited them down to a Medley and 0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:58.440 then remassed the record, but some confusion in there UH 0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:01.880 caused them to press a run of like about five 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:07.080 thousand of the rejected masters, the ones that sounded louder 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:10.040 on one side than the other, And so there are 0:41:10.120 --> 0:41:14.120 a few of those out there still extent, but most 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:18.520 of the records, any of the re issues, are all 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:20.799 of the one with the Medley instead of the three 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:26.400 full songs. Okay, now, those initial records were via Ampex 0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:30.120 before they we uh went to Warner Brothers, and then 0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:33.640 the market was flooded with cutouts. Was that something you 0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:38.359 were aware of on your end? No, I didn't pay 0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:42.040 much attention to that, but it seems logical. Uh. The 0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:46.880 deal with Ampex was kind of weird. UM. When Albert 0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:51.400 decided he wanted his own label, Theresbul Records, instead of 0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:55.480 going to another you know label for distribution or real 0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:58.640 record label, he went to Ampex, who only ever did 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:02.040 tapes up until that point. They would do real to 0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:05.600 real versions of LPs and in which case the volume 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:10.239 was uniformed throughout. But and hired a guy I don't 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.360 know whether he worked at Ampex or whether it was 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:16.240 just another guy, but made essentially a tape company, record 0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:20.200 distribution company, and they didn't realize what the difference was, 0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:23.680 you know. So that relationship only lasted about a year, 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:28.360 and they took Bearsville and made a sensible deal with 0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:35.919 Warner Brothers, and Warner Brothers distributed them until the label folded. Essentially. Okay, now, 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:39.080 the first record has a hit with shitty distribution. In 0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:43.000 terms of the album itself, the second album, in my mind, 0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:46.080 is a masterpiece. I prefer that to something anything, To 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:49.040 put your heart and soul into that album and have 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:53.280 limited commercial success and to not fly above the radar. 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:58.280 Was that something you felt and you were disappointed about? Well, 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:04.000 you know, not for myself. I'm always disappointed, you know 0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:07.879 when radio gets conservative and just starts playing the same 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:13.000 music over and over. Um. But this is in the 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:15.640 midst of me being one of the most successful producers 0:43:15.640 --> 0:43:18.080 in the world at this point, and I don't have 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:21.920 to worry about the economics of my own records. That 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:27.719 was the point, the realization that I had during something anything, Uh, 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:30.640 when people were comparing me to Carol King, is it 0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:34.239 always the madle Carol King. And as much as I 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:35.920 was a Carol King fan, I didn't want to be 0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:39.000 compared to anybody, and I started to realize, what's the 0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:41.799 point of doing music that other people are doing. I 0:43:41.840 --> 0:43:44.759 have to do music that only I would do. And 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:47.640 that's when I built a studio for the purposes of 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:51.080 doing the music that only I would do. And you know, 0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:56.960 the the market be deiled. You know how how commercial 0:43:57.000 --> 0:44:03.520 it was never even occurred to me. But the irony is, uh, well, 0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:06.080 there are a couple of irony. Is One irony is 0:44:06.120 --> 0:44:10.880 that it completely bifurcated my audience. Anyone who was like 0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:17.600 you know, a fan up until something anything uh and 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:21.920 didn't make that leap, never bought another record again, and 0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:24.880 for some reason think I retired from the music business 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:27.520 and never record another song after that. And they come 0:44:27.560 --> 0:44:29.399 to the shows and on they want to hear is solo. 0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:32.080 It's me and I saw the light. And then there 0:44:32.080 --> 0:44:36.160 are those fans who endured a wizit, a true star 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:41.080 and realized there was something in there, something unique in there, 0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:48.320 and and continued on the journey, realizing that the unexpected 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:51.720 was part of the reward. You know that most audience 0:44:51.760 --> 0:44:57.720 members want more of the same. My audience wants wants 0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:03.680 to know what weird hairs up my bum at this point, 0:45:03.760 --> 0:45:08.919 you know, so uh, and that's lasted mostly to this day, 0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:14.359 and it became a generational thing. About ten years ago 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:17.760 or so ago, a whole generation of younger artists started 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:23.080 to discover, in particular A Wizard a True Star. The 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:26.920 first instance of that was Taman Palea. Kevin Parker asked 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:30.480 me to do a remix and said that, you know, 0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:34.279 it was one of the most influential albums. You know 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:36.920 that his album that he was putting out was his 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:41.279 version of A Wizard a True Star. I did a 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:44.240 remix for Trent Resider and he said that he listened 0:45:44.280 --> 0:45:48.000 to A Wizard a True Star once a month. So 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:53.080 it opened up posthumously. It opened up all this whole 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:56.840 window to a younger generation of artists who got tired 0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:00.239 of doing the same music that everybody does nowadays and 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:03.040 do the same thing that I do, which is go 0:46:03.120 --> 0:46:07.680 back and see what has been done, uh, even like 0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:11.520 prior to your generation. Uh, and see if there's anything 0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:14.440 to learn in it. See if there's something something that 0:46:14.520 --> 0:46:20.799 will inspire you to to change what you're doing or 0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:24.279 somehow give you license to do something that's out of 0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:27.640 the ordinary. And what have you gone back and been 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:32.800 inspired by Oh. I have several instances of that. Maybe 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:39.920 the most obvious is UH with a Twist, where I 0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:44.440 was approached to to do new versions of my old 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:47.960 classics or standards or whatever you want to call them, 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:52.400 and Uh, most people would just get out an acoustic 0:46:52.440 --> 0:46:55.880 guitar and you know, do a new version. And I 0:46:55.920 --> 0:47:00.480 had been listening to Bossanova music of the of the 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:03.600 of the early sixties, like pre Beatles. You know, we're 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:09.360 talking before the Beatles. There was a whole era m 0:47:10.440 --> 0:47:14.000 in the late eighties and early nineties when everyone was well, 0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:20.080 when not everyone but certain people were transitioning from vinyl 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:24.520 to c ds, and the Japanese in particular just got 0:47:24.560 --> 0:47:26.719 really mental about it and they started going back and 0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:30.600 finding any obscure vinyl they could find and doing CD 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:33.799 re re releases. And we were touring Japan a lot 0:47:33.840 --> 0:47:36.760 in those days, and we would go to this record 0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:40.200 store called Wave was just a multi story place with 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:45.520 they had had LPs once floor, but most all of 0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:49.560 it was CDs, a lot of special releases and weird 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:52.560 packaging and stuff like that. But one of the things 0:47:52.560 --> 0:48:01.160 that they started started rereleasing where for instance, UH, Frank Sinatra, 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:08.440 the Capitol years, uh uh, and this whole genre that 0:48:08.560 --> 0:48:14.080 they called bachelor pad music or cocktail music, you know, 0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:21.960 which included Boston Nova, included uh all kinds of like 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:28.320 freaky like esquivel, you know, Martin Denny, exoticam music, that 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:32.520 sort of thing. And I got way into that. And 0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:34.640 so when they asked me to do a new album 0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:39.040 of of my standards, I said, I'm gonna make a 0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:43.200 Bossonova album. So we did a whole Bossonova album, and 0:48:43.239 --> 0:48:45.240 then we went out and did a tour in which 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:51.560 the stage was a small like tiki club tiki bar. 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:54.879 Every night that, you know, wherever we were, we were 0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:57.640 in the same tiki bar. And we did three acts. 0:48:57.719 --> 0:48:59.640 You know. We started out with the Boston Nova act, 0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.480 and then we do a sort of a more exotic act, 0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:05.160 and then we do an after hours act. And we 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:08.400 had tables and a bar and a bouncer, and we 0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:10.319 would invite people from the audience to come sit in 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:12.600 like they were on a tour bus and came to 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:15.480 our little Honolulu club to watch us play a set. 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:18.160 We would turn them out everyone to bring in a 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:20.960 new audience for each set, and by the time we 0:49:21.000 --> 0:49:22.879 got to the very end of the set, there would 0:49:22.880 --> 0:49:25.200 be nothing but one girl and one drunk at the 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:28.919 bar and he would hit on the girl. We would 0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:30.440 tell them what they were supposed to do, and he 0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:32.279 would hit on the girl on the bouncer would kick 0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:38.160 him out and that would be the end of the show. Okay. Now, 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:40.799 since you put out a lot of records and not 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:43.879 all of them were expected by the labels, you ever 0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:46.000 deliver one and they said, we don't want to put 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:49.440 it out, or it's gonna be different. There was an 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:59.960 instance where I made it an actually beautiful, magnificent record, uh, 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:05.200 with a girl named Julie. Oh gosh, she's gonna hate 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:09.319 me because I can't remember her name, but really a 0:50:09.400 --> 0:50:15.120 really terrific record. She was had long been a background 0:50:15.160 --> 0:50:18.280 singer for Leonard Cohen, but she had an incredible voice, 0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:22.120 an incredible material, and great arrangements. It was a terrific 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:28.040 record that has never seen the light of day because, um, 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:30.080 I don't want to grind any access here but a 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:33.480 certain person. But it was for Mercury Records, and a 0:50:33.520 --> 0:50:36.840 certain person came in and took over the presidency of 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:40.520 Mercury Records and said any project that was started before 0:50:40.560 --> 0:50:43.960 I got here is in the dumpster and it didn't 0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:47.640 matter what the quality of it was. And historically you could, 0:50:48.040 --> 0:50:49.880 if you do the math, you can probably figure out 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:55.040 who this prick was, but uh, I'm not gonna name him. 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.360 I think I do know who it is, but that's okay. 0:50:57.920 --> 0:51:01.200 And uh, yeah, that was that was a heartbreaking, you know, 0:51:01.360 --> 0:51:03.520 because I had nothing to do with the quality of 0:51:03.600 --> 0:51:07.080 the record. You know, it was a completely political decision 0:51:07.960 --> 0:51:11.799 and uh, and I think that discouraged her so much 0:51:11.840 --> 0:51:14.600 that she never went to find another label to pick 0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:18.440 up the record, so that I really regret because I 0:51:18.520 --> 0:51:23.200 thought it was a beautiful piece of work. Julie Christensen, 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:28.359 Julie Christensen, thank you, thank you. How did you end 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:31.360 up as the engineer on stage? Right? Well, that was 0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:35.040 kind of what they brought me in for, uh, to 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:40.960 take these older acts and uh and sort of update them. 0:51:41.560 --> 0:51:44.320 And I don't remember what the very very first session 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:46.719 I did was. It might they might have put me 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.600 on some demo sections or something like that. See if 0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:51.920 you can, you know, just come up with a song 0:51:52.040 --> 0:51:58.520 out of this artist. Um, then uh, I guess they decided, okay, 0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:01.719 if we're gonna hired this guy. We got to give 0:52:01.760 --> 0:52:06.680 him some kind of definitive test. So they hired me 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:13.239 to um engineer Jesse Winchester's first album. Robbie Robertson was 0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:20.040 producing it, and the and the backup was essentially the band, 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:29.040 and I was was the producer in other words, the producer. 0:52:29.080 --> 0:52:32.560 And that we had to record it in Toronto because, uh, 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:37.959 Jesse Winchester was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War 0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:41.080 and then he was living in Montreal, so we had 0:52:41.080 --> 0:52:45.760 a studio in Toronto. Kicked the engineer out of the studio, 0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:49.040 maybe kept a tape off or something like that. And 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:52.240 it was the first time I had a big, serious, 0:52:52.320 --> 0:52:55.680 you know session, and I just winged it. I winged 0:52:55.680 --> 0:52:58.400 it through the whole thing. I winged it through. I 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:00.560 knew a little bit about Mike play been his stuff 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:06.160 from doing the NAS records. Uh yeah, winged my way 0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:09.600 through the session. And in the end they were happy 0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:12.160 with how I did it and what it sounded like, 0:53:12.800 --> 0:53:16.080 and so they said, Okay, you're doing stage fright now. 0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:19.720 That was pretty much the very next thing that happened 0:53:20.360 --> 0:53:24.000 the Jesse Winchester record was Robbie in the studio were 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:27.520 you the de facto producer. No, No, Robbie. Robbie was 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:31.640 the producer. Okay, And now on that record there was 0:53:31.719 --> 0:53:34.960 a song that came part of he became legendary, but 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:38.120 never was he hit Yankee Lady? Did you know that 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:39.680 that would be? You know, when you're in the studio 0:53:39.719 --> 0:53:41.520 and you're hearing these tracks, that would be the first 0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:43.480 of them. Do you wait? There's something about this one 0:53:43.520 --> 0:53:49.280 and this one is gonna go No. Actually, Albert, before 0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:51.520 I went up to do the project, played it for me. 0:53:51.840 --> 0:53:54.560 He played Yankee Lady. He didn't play any other song. 0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:56.799 He said, this is the song that has sold this 0:53:56.880 --> 0:54:00.759 record to me. So so he was. He was really 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:03.840 high on it and played it for me. He played 0:54:03.840 --> 0:54:05.480 it for anybody who would listen to it. As a 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:11.920 matter of fact, he thought there was something especially in Trigue, 0:54:11.960 --> 0:54:13.920 not just about the song and the way that he's 0:54:13.960 --> 0:54:18.319 saying it, but something intriguing about the story because it 0:54:18.520 --> 0:54:25.120 was Jesse Winchester's story, going from Arkansas or wherever he 0:54:25.160 --> 0:54:28.279 grew up to as far north as he could get. 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:35.200 So even beyond Yankee he went canok So, what was 0:54:35.239 --> 0:54:41.200 the first project that bb beyond the stage Right record? 0:54:41.640 --> 0:54:47.719 That was outside of the Beersville stable. Um. Well, as 0:54:47.760 --> 0:54:50.880 I said, the first project, the first band I managed 0:54:50.880 --> 0:54:54.440 to get signed was the American Dream and and that 0:54:54.560 --> 0:55:01.400 was on that was on Bearsville. But I think the uh, 0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:04.719 the first significant one I was doing stuff for the 0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:08.560 Bearsville stable. It wasn't always on Bearsville records. Like I 0:55:08.600 --> 0:55:11.600 went to Nashville and did an Ian and Sylvia record, 0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:15.880 you know, or two UH went back to l A 0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:20.200 and did a James Cotton record, but they would have 0:55:20.239 --> 0:55:27.240 been for their own labels, whatever those labels were. Um. 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:30.200 I think the first big, you know, the big signature 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:35.319 project outside of the immediate stable was Bad Finger was 0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:39.520 straight up. Now that was a whole troubled project. Never 0:55:39.600 --> 0:55:44.839 mind the ultimate credit and trouble till I got there. Well, 0:55:44.880 --> 0:55:47.120 I mean, you know, these records have been released with 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:50.840 your additions and the other people's mixes and productions, and 0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:53.040 it's black and white. You can see what yours were 0:55:53.320 --> 0:55:57.799 relevantive emotional things. Yours were the the ones that were 0:55:57.880 --> 0:56:03.080 the successful artistically an commercial way. Well, when I got there, 0:56:03.120 --> 0:56:07.680 of course they had been through to producers already. Jeff Emrick, 0:56:07.800 --> 0:56:12.000 who was had been the Beatles engineer. I had done 0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:15.440 a whole record and for some reason it got rejected 0:56:15.480 --> 0:56:18.279 and I read later that the American label didn't hear 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:22.120 a hit song on it, so they said, no, we're 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:26.560 not gonna put this out. It might have been fined 0:56:26.560 --> 0:56:30.600 by Apple in England, but apparently the American distributors said no. 0:56:31.920 --> 0:56:34.840 So then George got involved. But he hadn't gotten halfway 0:56:34.840 --> 0:56:38.480 through the record before he got distracted by the concert 0:56:38.520 --> 0:56:42.680 for Bangladesh and just didn't have the time. But the 0:56:42.760 --> 0:56:47.400 other issues with George's thing was that they were sonic 0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:50.640 in that he was kind of in the thrall of 0:56:50.719 --> 0:56:55.480 Phil Specter at the time. And Phil Specter doesn't think 0:56:55.520 --> 0:56:58.520 about a band, you know. A matter of fact, when 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:00.640 Phil Specter produced the beat was the first thing he 0:57:00.680 --> 0:57:04.160 did was slap an orchestra on it, you know, so 0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:07.600 he didn't think in terms of bands, you know. But 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:11.040 Bad Finger was a band and they needed to sound 0:57:11.040 --> 0:57:14.120 like a band. And uh so a lot of the 0:57:14.200 --> 0:57:17.240 stuff that I got from George I just had too 0:57:17.320 --> 0:57:20.560 much on it. You know. It had like triple track 0:57:20.640 --> 0:57:25.240 acoustic guitars, the drums were back in the soup, you know, 0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:30.440 all Phil Specter um and it sounded nothing like the 0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:35.560 Jeff Emricks stuff. Uh. I didn't tackle it right away. 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:38.040 The first thing I did was, like, let's pretend we're 0:57:38.040 --> 0:57:40.960 doing a new record, you know, before I get into 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:44.560 like recovering any of the old stuff. Let's let's start 0:57:44.600 --> 0:57:46.320 over and pretend we're doing a new record. So we 0:57:46.360 --> 0:57:48.880 went into the studio and I think the very first 0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:53.280 thing we did was baby Blue. Uh. And we did 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:57.000 a few more things, and gradually in the process we 0:57:57.040 --> 0:57:59.520 started looking back at the old material and thinking what 0:57:59.600 --> 0:58:02.760 should we try and keep here. And we knew that 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:06.040 day after day should be a keeper. But it didn't 0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:12.200 sound right. Um. So I rerecorded the drums, uh rerecord 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:14.240 a lot of stuff throughout some of the sounds so 0:58:14.280 --> 0:58:18.160 that it sounded more like a band, that the drums 0:58:18.200 --> 0:58:23.080 were less soupy. Uh. And on any of the George 0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:25.720 Harrison tracks that we used. That was more or less 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.480 the process get get it out of the specter zone 0:58:28.520 --> 0:58:32.240 a little more into the bad finger zone that Jeff 0:58:32.280 --> 0:58:37.640 Emrick stuff was. That was the opposite almost too bare, 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.520 you know, it was almost a little too raw, and 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:43.840 there wasn't any effort to to, you know, sort of 0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:48.919 dress up the details. Um, so a combination of those 0:58:48.960 --> 0:58:52.080 three things eventually went into the record, and you know, 0:58:52.160 --> 0:58:55.000 I had to somehow try and mix it like it 0:58:55.080 --> 0:58:58.640 sounded like it all happened at the same time instead 0:58:58.640 --> 0:59:00.480 of over the course of like a year and a 0:59:00.560 --> 0:59:10.160 half or something. Now, two members of that being committed suicide. 0:59:10.920 --> 0:59:14.680 The story is over a lack of royalties, lack of payment. 0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:18.040 Was that something you saw in those two band members 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:20.960 while making this record, that maybe they were on the 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:23.600 line or frustrated where they just upbeat when you dealt 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:27.320 with them. No, it didn't get into any of that stuff. 0:59:28.120 --> 0:59:29.760 As a matter of fact, I was supposed to produce 0:59:29.840 --> 0:59:34.080 the second record, the record after that, and came in 0:59:34.160 --> 0:59:37.160 and did uh. We were We moved into Apple Studios, 0:59:37.200 --> 0:59:41.600 which had been completed and vacated and UH and set 0:59:41.680 --> 0:59:43.840 up on the first night and did a little bit 0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:46.600 of I think we tried to lay down a track 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:49.080 the first night, and I came in the second night 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:54.960 and they fired me without explanation. They just said, we 0:59:54.960 --> 0:59:56.920 don't want you to work on the record anymore. See you. 0:59:58.000 --> 1:00:00.120 And so from that point on, I knew there was 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:02.360 something going on the bay, but I had no idea 1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:06.000 what it was, and they didn't inform me, and I 1:00:06.040 --> 1:00:09.080 had to make the assumption that, you know, the the 1:00:09.120 --> 1:00:11.560 reason why I was kind of like on the outside 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:16.680 was that I didn't go out drinking at the pub 1:00:16.800 --> 1:00:20.160 with them or something like that. You know, I didn't 1:00:20.200 --> 1:00:22.680 pal around with them. I just wanted to get their 1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:28.400 damn records done, so uh, and so I think that 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:31.960 they just felt that there was something that wasn't meshing 1:00:32.520 --> 1:00:35.480 between us or whatever, or that I was too dictatorial 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:38.880 because of what had happened on the last record, and 1:00:38.920 --> 1:00:41.880 I didn't want this one to start drifting like the 1:00:41.960 --> 1:00:45.400 last one had. So that was it. And I didn't 1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:48.280 hear anything from anybody in the band four years, years, 1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:55.760 years and years until almost more recently, Uh, when we 1:00:55.880 --> 1:00:58.960 did you know a beat one of them Beatle tribute shows, 1:00:59.480 --> 1:01:02.120 and me and Joey Mullins were on stage together for 1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:05.200 the whole thing, and we were we were fine with 1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:12.240 each other, probably because we both rather forget that that episode. Okay, 1:01:12.240 --> 1:01:15.440 but your reputation, I don't know the reality. That's why 1:01:15.480 --> 1:01:17.880 I'm asking you. Only you were there was that you 1:01:17.960 --> 1:01:21.560 were kind of dictatorial in general as a producer. Would 1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:26.400 that be? Is that how you saw it well. I 1:01:26.440 --> 1:01:28.720 was never into the idea of someone come into the 1:01:28.760 --> 1:01:32.600 studio unprepared, just on the assumption that they're gonna make 1:01:32.800 --> 1:01:36.800 a record or get something done. As I mentioned, I 1:01:39.320 --> 1:01:41.520 this we're in the seventies now, but I came up 1:01:41.560 --> 1:01:44.440 in that kind of like mid late sixties are my 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:47.840 first studio experiences. And you didn't waste time in the studio, 1:01:48.200 --> 1:01:51.840 you know, when uh, we were trying to get signed, 1:01:51.880 --> 1:01:55.080 when the NASA is trying to get signed, and you 1:01:55.120 --> 1:02:00.320 would get some demo time and uh uh and probably 1:02:00.320 --> 1:02:03.120 a studio that the that the label owned, and they 1:02:03.160 --> 1:02:05.240 say you get a half an hour an hour, play 1:02:05.280 --> 1:02:08.680 as many songs as you can, you know, and that 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:10.680 was it. And you know overdubbing. We don't have the 1:02:10.680 --> 1:02:13.640 time for overdubbing, you know, just keep let's play songs 1:02:14.400 --> 1:02:16.000 and until you get you know, and of course you 1:02:16.000 --> 1:02:17.840 wouldn't get the first take. You would play until you 1:02:17.920 --> 1:02:20.000 got takes that you wanted them to listen to. And 1:02:20.120 --> 1:02:22.960 but before you knew it, you've got two or three 1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:26.600 songs and a half hour is gone. So going into 1:02:26.600 --> 1:02:29.600 the studio without being prepared as kind of an athema 1:02:29.800 --> 1:02:32.080 to me. You know, you go into your row. You 1:02:32.080 --> 1:02:40.920 know what you're gonna do. Um and uh, sometimes it 1:02:41.000 --> 1:02:46.360 will be projects in which the reputation of the band 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:50.520 might be on the line. I never had any friction 1:02:50.560 --> 1:02:53.400 with Grand Funk Railroad, but it was pretty much understood 1:02:53.840 --> 1:02:56.720 that this was a reinvention and that I was more 1:02:56.760 --> 1:03:00.480 or less in charge of it, so uh or I 1:03:00.560 --> 1:03:03.320 was more or less uh in charge of making sure 1:03:03.360 --> 1:03:06.520 that it succeeded. You know, they already knew what they 1:03:06.560 --> 1:03:10.000 wanted to do, but everything was brand new for them. 1:03:10.000 --> 1:03:15.400 They had new management, new record producer me um, and 1:03:16.880 --> 1:03:19.920 they did a you know, pretty spectacular job of adapting 1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:23.480 to all that and to reinventing themselves in a way. 1:03:23.720 --> 1:03:26.120 Let's say with Grand Funk raill Roads, didn't you like 1:03:26.160 --> 1:03:29.880 people to be prepared and they were American band? Album? 1:03:30.120 --> 1:03:33.760 Did they come in with all those songs? Exactly? As 1:03:33.760 --> 1:03:36.400 a matter of fact, you know, they before we did 1:03:36.440 --> 1:03:38.160 the album, I went out to their you know, I 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:42.240 went out to Flint and sat with the band and 1:03:42.280 --> 1:03:46.280 listen to them and do their rehearsals. And they were 1:03:46.320 --> 1:03:49.840 tight when they came in. I mean, they were a 1:03:49.920 --> 1:03:54.560 live band. Their whole thing was you know that their 1:03:54.560 --> 1:03:56.920 biggest problem in the studio was they kept trying to 1:03:56.960 --> 1:03:59.440 be a live band in the studio, so they do 1:03:59.560 --> 1:04:02.080 these long jams. You know, it's not that might be 1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:05.360 entertaining live, but they weren't cream so they weren't so 1:04:05.440 --> 1:04:11.320 much entertaining on record. And so they managed to reinvent 1:04:11.360 --> 1:04:15.520 themselves as a songwriting unit. You know, you write songs, 1:04:15.600 --> 1:04:19.280 you don't write wrong jams, You write songs with versuscorus, bridges, 1:04:19.320 --> 1:04:22.040 all that stuff. And they set themselves to that and 1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:25.320 did a good job of it. And they came in 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:29.080 and it was all rehearsed. I mean, the story of 1:04:29.080 --> 1:04:32.160 of the single were American Band, not just the album 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:41.680 is is truly phenomenal because they had the entire project 1:04:41.960 --> 1:04:45.680 timed from the first moment we went into the studio 1:04:46.840 --> 1:04:49.600 until the release of the record. The first thing we 1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:52.880 did the first day we recorded the track to We're 1:04:52.880 --> 1:04:57.000 an American Band. The next the first thing next day, 1:04:57.040 --> 1:05:00.280 we finished the vocals and overdubs, mixed it, and went 1:05:00.400 --> 1:05:05.000 right into mastering on the second day and mastered the single. 1:05:06.400 --> 1:05:08.920 We didn't even have a B side yet because we 1:05:08.960 --> 1:05:15.200 hadn't recorded anything else yet, and essentially mastered it, sent 1:05:15.320 --> 1:05:20.920 it out to be pressed. And in those days, you 1:05:21.040 --> 1:05:25.600 could uh charter record not based on actual sales, but 1:05:25.680 --> 1:05:35.000 based on pre orders and and and also based on 1:05:35.080 --> 1:05:37.760 ads on radio ads. You know how many people add 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:43.480 the record? A week after we master the record is 1:05:43.520 --> 1:05:48.200 when it's scheduled to be released, So they goes, it 1:05:48.200 --> 1:05:53.640 goes immediately that plant they're pressing uh singles like mad 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:56.400 and sending them out to all the radio stations. The 1:05:56.520 --> 1:06:01.439 next week, the record charts in the top forty. Week 1:06:01.520 --> 1:06:04.720 after we recorded it, it's charted in the top forty, 1:06:04.960 --> 1:06:11.280 and it's on the radio in a week. Okay, Grand 1:06:11.280 --> 1:06:14.680 Funk was a reviled band. You work with them. They 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:20.160 have this monstrous single which everyone liked. So two things. 1:06:20.200 --> 1:06:22.960 Did you understand it would be such a monstrous single? 1:06:23.240 --> 1:06:26.960 And after this success, either you're or Albert's phone must 1:06:26.960 --> 1:06:32.200 have been ringing off the hook? Uh Part B yes, 1:06:33.960 --> 1:06:39.240 Part B exactly. Um. I had no idea what to 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:41.800 expect when I was going into it except what had 1:06:41.800 --> 1:06:45.920 happened previously with Grand Funk Railroad. And they had, you know, 1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:50.040 two issues. So previously mentioned issue was that they were 1:06:50.600 --> 1:06:53.920 too jam oriented and not song oriented enough. And I 1:06:53.960 --> 1:06:55.880 think they were aware of that had to do that. 1:06:56.840 --> 1:06:58.840 But they were also you know, the issues with their 1:06:58.880 --> 1:07:01.920 management were was also an issue with their production because 1:07:01.920 --> 1:07:04.560 their manager was also their producer and he was a 1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:09.840 terrible producer, right, Terry Knight. Yeah, that records didn't sound 1:07:09.880 --> 1:07:12.720 good and he let all this flab go by. You know, 1:07:12.920 --> 1:07:18.640 it's just you know, they were there, just not good records. Okay. 1:07:18.680 --> 1:07:21.920 The only thing about it from the outside, it looks 1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:24.640 like you were the genies that made it happen. You're 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:27.600 telling the story like you were like just the mason 1:07:27.720 --> 1:07:30.480 putting the ship together. No, they had the whole They 1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:34.440 had a whole plan, a whole scheme for their reinvent 1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:38.200 complete scheme for their reinvention when I got involved with them. 1:07:38.240 --> 1:07:40.919 But if they had a different producer, since the song 1:07:41.000 --> 1:07:44.240 was already written, were it was there must have been demos. 1:07:44.800 --> 1:07:47.440 Was your version similar to the demo or was it 1:07:47.560 --> 1:07:51.120 your spin that put it over the top? Possibly my spin. 1:07:52.320 --> 1:07:54.400 I got a lot of complaints in the Keyboard Player 1:07:54.480 --> 1:07:57.480 because I said do this, think think think, think, think, think, think, think, 1:07:57.560 --> 1:07:59.680 think Think In the cores, he said, but I sound 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:02.560 like as I sounds stupid, But I dink think, think, think, think, 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:06.240 I said, just do it, all right. It's a little 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:09.120 subliminal thing in there, you know, have you paid too 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:11.040 much attention to It doesn't work, but it's just a 1:08:11.080 --> 1:08:13.360 little thing in there that gives a chorus a little 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:16.320 I know that sound absolutely, and I don't know that 1:08:16.400 --> 1:08:20.240 another producer would have suggested that or forced the keyboard 1:08:20.280 --> 1:08:25.120 player to do that. Okay, so now Albert's fielding all 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:27.960 these offers. How do you decide who to work with? 1:08:28.320 --> 1:08:30.559 And what is Since they're looking to you, what are 1:08:30.600 --> 1:08:33.080 you saying back? What are your requirements? I'm not talking 1:08:33.080 --> 1:08:36.439 about cash, Like how much time would I need? Does 1:08:36.560 --> 1:08:39.040 do the songs have to be done? Well? I think 1:08:39.280 --> 1:08:45.720 that a a signature production that came sometime after that 1:08:45.720 --> 1:08:49.439 that actually sort of characterized my production style and changed 1:08:49.479 --> 1:08:53.000 my whole approach. And that was the New York Dolls. 1:08:53.840 --> 1:08:55.840 They were, you know, they were kind of like half 1:08:55.840 --> 1:08:58.720 the problem I had. I had other issues which I 1:08:58.800 --> 1:09:03.880 incorporated into my slout, but it all came down to 1:09:03.960 --> 1:09:06.519 the mixing for the on that record in a way, 1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:12.439 you know, because uh, capturing the performances was kind of 1:09:12.479 --> 1:09:20.160 like uh wild life, like if you're a wildlife photographer, 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:23.160 you know, and you're just trying to get that perfect moment, 1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:27.040 because it's only a moment. There's so much chaos going 1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:30.880 on all the time that you're never sure when that 1:09:30.960 --> 1:09:33.479 moment is gonna be there. There are all kinds of 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:36.280 people hanging around the studio all the time, groupies and 1:09:36.640 --> 1:09:41.160 journalists and stuff, and the band isn't the most disciplined 1:09:41.200 --> 1:09:44.000 band in the world. In other words, it's you get 1:09:44.000 --> 1:09:46.280 a couple of takes done and then somebody or a 1:09:46.320 --> 1:09:50.280 couple of people just won't wander off. They're probably consuming 1:09:50.400 --> 1:09:55.400 something somewhere in the shadows. It's uh a bit of 1:09:55.400 --> 1:09:59.040 a carnival atmosphere for the whole thing. But then it 1:09:59.080 --> 1:10:01.960 comes down to the mix, integrating everything you've got into 1:10:02.040 --> 1:10:08.880 something that sounds like a record. And there were two 1:10:09.000 --> 1:10:11.280 issues with that. One is the band all wanted to 1:10:11.280 --> 1:10:13.960 be there while I was mixing. And I've had this 1:10:14.040 --> 1:10:17.559 experience before where the band is all there when you're 1:10:17.560 --> 1:10:21.439 mixing stage right, hands all there and you're mixing. It 1:10:21.520 --> 1:10:25.360 takes forever, you know, and sometimes it's a completely futile 1:10:25.439 --> 1:10:32.360 exercise because everybody only hears themselves when you're building a mix. 1:10:32.400 --> 1:10:35.200 The guitar player only hears the guitar. You know, I 1:10:35.280 --> 1:10:37.519 think you only here's his boys, the drummer. Only here's 1:10:37.560 --> 1:10:40.200 the drums, and they're all whispering in my air. Could 1:10:40.200 --> 1:10:42.040 you push me up a little bit please, you know, 1:10:42.600 --> 1:10:44.880 push push the vocal up just a little bit more. 1:10:45.720 --> 1:10:48.880 You know. After a couple of run throughs, you look 1:10:48.920 --> 1:10:51.519 down at the console and all of the faders are 1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:53.880 pinned at the top and you have to start all 1:10:53.920 --> 1:10:57.320 over again. So I realized after that that, you know, 1:10:57.680 --> 1:11:00.840 having the band in there, having the act at all 1:11:00.960 --> 1:11:02.800 in the room while you're building a mix is a 1:11:02.840 --> 1:11:06.400 mistake because they don't hear the whole mix. They only 1:11:06.439 --> 1:11:08.800 hear like the little bits in the mix, and they 1:11:08.800 --> 1:11:11.280 can't pull back far enough to hear the whole thing 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:14.719 and it, you know, and that didn't make the record 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:19.160 any better than all being there for the mixes, because 1:11:19.840 --> 1:11:21.720 half the time they were in too much of a 1:11:21.800 --> 1:11:24.559 hurry to really do it properly, Like they have a 1:11:24.600 --> 1:11:28.639 gig somewhere in Long Island to get to and say, okay, 1:11:28.640 --> 1:11:30.920 we gotta wrap session up. Let's you know, we gotta 1:11:30.960 --> 1:11:34.880 go to Long Island. And then worst of all, uh, 1:11:35.000 --> 1:11:39.120 they mastered it on what at the time was a 1:11:39.160 --> 1:11:48.559 relatively antiquated lade uh a non uh. Well, you know, 1:11:48.600 --> 1:11:50.280 I don't want to get this is a little bit 1:11:50.280 --> 1:11:52.400 too technical, but it used to be when you cut 1:11:52.400 --> 1:11:56.880 a record, the the what they call the pitch how 1:11:56.960 --> 1:12:01.200 far into the into the lacquer, the the needle goes 1:12:01.960 --> 1:12:06.280 was fixed, and it had to be fixed to not 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:10.120 create a groove that was so wide that it bumped 1:12:10.160 --> 1:12:13.120 into the next group. So the loudest moment in your 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:16.960 whole record determined exactly where everything would be, you know, 1:12:17.520 --> 1:12:21.120 and and you couldn't compress any more sound than that. 1:12:22.080 --> 1:12:25.040 After a while, they got smart and they developed what 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:29.559 they call a variable pitch blade, which means you've got 1:12:30.080 --> 1:12:33.320 as the tape is running through, you've got what you 1:12:33.320 --> 1:12:36.519 would call look ahead. You've got ahead that's reading the 1:12:36.560 --> 1:12:39.840 sound that's about to come and measuring the volume in it. 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:43.320 And so if there's not a lot of volume, then 1:12:43.360 --> 1:12:45.920 you don't have to dig so deep with the blade. 1:12:45.960 --> 1:12:50.040 Then you can pack more sound into a record by 1:12:50.080 --> 1:12:53.760 doing that. So essentially the record could have been could 1:12:53.760 --> 1:12:55.639 have had a much better sound if they had done 1:12:55.640 --> 1:12:58.600 it like a sterling sound, but instead they did it 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:00.840 in on the lay that was in the next room 1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:04.120 to the mixer. That was like that some label had 1:13:04.280 --> 1:13:08.160 essentially sold to them because it was obsolete. So the 1:13:08.240 --> 1:13:12.800 very first releases of the record, the sound it wasn't 1:13:12.840 --> 1:13:16.080 what it could have been. Probably later releases sounded better. 1:13:17.240 --> 1:13:21.400 So why do you call this a signature production? Because 1:13:21.439 --> 1:13:24.880 that's when I learned never allowed the artists in the 1:13:25.000 --> 1:13:27.559 room while you're setting the mix up. You set up 1:13:27.600 --> 1:13:29.800 the mix, and then you vide them and say what 1:13:29.840 --> 1:13:32.599 do you think of this? And they say, okay, fix this, 1:13:32.600 --> 1:13:34.920 this and this. I say, okay, go away, I'll fix this, 1:13:34.920 --> 1:13:37.439 this and this. Then come back and listen to it, 1:13:37.680 --> 1:13:40.840 because it's hard enough for me to retain my objectivity 1:13:41.080 --> 1:13:44.640 listening to this dozens of times. You're not going to 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:46.840 do a better job than I. It's like when you 1:13:46.880 --> 1:13:48.640 know this is a minor version, when Tom says I 1:13:48.680 --> 1:13:50.479 need you to hear this record, and they want to 1:13:50.520 --> 1:13:52.519 sit there while you listen to it, It's like, no, 1:13:52.600 --> 1:13:54.880 I gotta listen to it alone, you know, on my 1:13:54.960 --> 1:13:57.639 own time. Well, it's partly that, you know, I don't 1:13:57.640 --> 1:14:00.360 want people, you know, yelling, chattering and it back to 1:14:00.439 --> 1:14:03.360 me about what's going on while I'm trying to focus 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:05.599 on the sound. Yeah, you gotta get in the zone. 1:14:06.040 --> 1:14:09.479 But did you also mean that that record open more 1:14:09.560 --> 1:14:15.280 production doors? Oh? Not really, yeah, because I mean that 1:14:15.360 --> 1:14:18.200 record I have the early version I saw the band 1:14:18.200 --> 1:14:19.799 because there was a lot of hype on the record. 1:14:21.000 --> 1:14:24.040 You know, I might say, and you might disagree, that 1:14:24.120 --> 1:14:26.280 a lot of your records are known for a lot 1:14:26.320 --> 1:14:29.559 of high end, which you know, more of an am 1:14:29.640 --> 1:14:34.360 record sound that as opposed to the stereo UH sound, 1:14:34.800 --> 1:14:37.880 more of a compressed sound. Is that something that rings 1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:41.880 a bell or you say, no fucking way. I don't 1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:47.559 know that it's it's the same for all records, but 1:14:47.720 --> 1:14:56.479 I do like to make records that are full spectrum. UH. 1:14:56.840 --> 1:15:00.640 There's also the question of what are people actually listening 1:15:01.479 --> 1:15:08.439 to the music on UH? And nowadays it's like there 1:15:08.520 --> 1:15:12.160 is no target. You know, there's no actual target anymore. 1:15:12.400 --> 1:15:16.479 People be listening on the crappiest earbuds they can find, 1:15:17.000 --> 1:15:20.400 or they might be listening with you know, new five 1:15:20.920 --> 1:15:29.599 fifty dollar Apple phones, which mystifies me. But the audience 1:15:29.640 --> 1:15:34.200 doesn't care about the sound for the most part. I 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:38.160 mean maybe some audiophiles and the audience might care about 1:15:38.160 --> 1:15:42.000 the sound. But you know, ever since beats by Dr 1:15:42.120 --> 1:15:48.760 Dre you know, uh, branded distortion as a product. You know, 1:15:49.479 --> 1:15:52.720 you completely blow out the low end and suddenly, you know, 1:15:52.920 --> 1:15:56.160 people are like, wow, you know, I'm hearing something that 1:15:56.200 --> 1:15:58.639 I've never heard before, that's not supposed to be there, 1:15:59.160 --> 1:16:03.839 you know. And so there is no actual target anymore 1:16:03.920 --> 1:16:06.680 for sound. You know, it's whatever you're mixing on to 1:16:06.760 --> 1:16:08.400 make it sound as good as it can on the 1:16:08.960 --> 1:16:12.719 on the stuff that you've depended on all this time. 1:16:13.600 --> 1:16:16.080 But you know, as far as the high or low end, 1:16:16.120 --> 1:16:18.760 it probably has to do with the equipment that I 1:16:19.000 --> 1:16:22.400 prefer to mix on, but also that I like to 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:26.519 hear those sounds, you know, I like to I like 1:16:26.680 --> 1:16:30.000 to hear that really high ting on the bells, you know, 1:16:30.080 --> 1:16:33.880 if there are bells in there, you know. Uh, I 1:16:34.000 --> 1:16:36.160 like to hear the low end as well. And the 1:16:36.160 --> 1:16:39.800 biggest problem with my records historically has been when we 1:16:39.840 --> 1:16:43.120 go to master them, they're too long, and that means 1:16:43.160 --> 1:16:45.760 that the very low end has to get rolled off, 1:16:46.080 --> 1:16:48.679 and that's why they sound more toppy than a lot 1:16:48.680 --> 1:16:51.559 of records. It has mostly to do with you know, 1:16:51.640 --> 1:16:54.120 the LP raw when we had to get them onto 1:16:54.200 --> 1:16:57.040 vinyl and the things that we had to do in 1:16:57.120 --> 1:16:59.639 order to fit them. So we usually have to add 1:16:59.640 --> 1:17:09.000 comp scian during the mastering to keep peaks from uh uh, 1:17:09.600 --> 1:17:12.639 essentially determining you know, the maximum top end and then 1:17:12.680 --> 1:17:15.840 everything I'm gonna be lower than that, and that, you know, 1:17:17.080 --> 1:17:19.720 in terms of that variable pitch thing, if you know 1:17:19.720 --> 1:17:22.679 what I mean. Yeah, absolutely. Now are you a fan 1:17:22.760 --> 1:17:24.920 of digital or you more of an analog guy? And 1:17:24.920 --> 1:17:26.840 you talk about equipment, what type of equipment do you 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:29.400 like to use? Well, I'm you know, I'm not a 1:17:29.400 --> 1:17:32.240 fan either way. I just have to say that everything 1:17:32.240 --> 1:17:35.639 has becomes so much easier, and we have so many 1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:39.200 more possibilities in the digital realm than we ever did 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:44.320 in the analog realm. Uh. Just a very simple process 1:17:44.360 --> 1:17:48.320 of making a backup of something, you know, which was 1:17:48.360 --> 1:17:51.080 a rare thing. You know, not many studios actually made 1:17:51.120 --> 1:17:54.880 backups of the tapes that you made, particularly full twenty 1:17:54.920 --> 1:18:00.720 four track backups. Um, It's expensive and time consuming, and 1:18:00.760 --> 1:18:03.000 so people didn't do it that often. And then you 1:18:03.080 --> 1:18:06.240 have some accident that's completely ruined your master you know, 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:11.400 because it's analog, you know, uh, anything that was mastered 1:18:11.439 --> 1:18:14.799 on a certain kind of tape previous to a certain 1:18:14.920 --> 1:18:19.800 date suffers from this disease called sticky shed, which is 1:18:19.840 --> 1:18:22.240 if you went back to the original tapes, all of 1:18:22.280 --> 1:18:27.799 the oxide starts falling off of them, you know. Whereas digitally, whatever, 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:32.720 you know, whatever Neil Young finds wrong with it, at 1:18:32.800 --> 1:18:35.839 least you can make a carbon copy of whatever you've got. 1:18:36.000 --> 1:18:39.040 You know, you can make infinite carbon copies, and they 1:18:39.080 --> 1:18:42.360 don't take a fraction of the time that it takes 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:46.360 to make an analog copy. So in terms of the convenience, 1:18:47.800 --> 1:18:50.679 you know, this laptop that I'm talking to you on now, 1:18:50.760 --> 1:18:54.320 that's my studio, and everything that I've ever needed is 1:18:54.360 --> 1:18:57.639 inside is inside it right now. And there's a MacBook Pro, 1:18:58.720 --> 1:19:01.040 yes it is. Oh okay. How did you get so 1:19:01.160 --> 1:19:05.559 into computers when I was very young? Well, I guess 1:19:05.560 --> 1:19:07.360 there's two reasons. One is I grew up in a 1:19:07.400 --> 1:19:11.759 household that was my dad was an engineer at DuPont, 1:19:11.840 --> 1:19:17.519 and so I was tech comfy. Uh. My dad knew 1:19:17.520 --> 1:19:19.640 how to do all those things, so I expected that 1:19:19.720 --> 1:19:23.960 that was a realm of knowledge that I should eventually inherit. 1:19:24.439 --> 1:19:28.160 You know. He had the big tool bench and the 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:32.160 craftsman LAIDs, you know, and all the tools and he 1:19:32.240 --> 1:19:36.040 knew how to do schematic circuits and that sort of thing, 1:19:36.200 --> 1:19:41.120 So there was a comfort level with technology. Uh. And 1:19:41.160 --> 1:19:43.920 also I had, you know, a particular interest, and it 1:19:44.000 --> 1:19:47.840 kind of started and might have started when I saw 1:19:49.000 --> 1:19:54.600 Forbidden Planet and Robbie the robot, and I thought, I 1:19:54.640 --> 1:19:58.519 want one of those. Kids are bullying me all the time, 1:19:58.560 --> 1:20:04.800 and I want one of those. Yeah, and so uh, 1:20:05.040 --> 1:20:07.559 I realized eventually, well, if you build one of those, 1:20:07.560 --> 1:20:10.160 who's got to have a brain, some kind of a brain, 1:20:10.680 --> 1:20:13.960 and computers are electronic brains. And so about at the 1:20:14.000 --> 1:20:19.839 age of nine or ten, I'm started studying uh digital 1:20:19.880 --> 1:20:28.479 electronics or you know, uh logic essentially logic gates and 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:30.720 things like that. I don't know if you know about this, 1:20:30.760 --> 1:20:33.360 but they've got hands and oars and all the stuff. 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:36.040 Things at the bit left, things at the one bit level. 1:20:36.840 --> 1:20:39.519 And I started studying at them when I was really young. 1:20:40.560 --> 1:20:44.800 Realized that a lot of it ran on alternate number systems. 1:20:45.720 --> 1:20:49.200 So I began to all understand, you know, base eight, 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:54.800 you know, Base sixteen, based twelve, whatever the odd you know, 1:20:55.200 --> 1:20:57.519 different number systems might be. So when I got to 1:20:57.560 --> 1:21:00.400 the new math in high school, I was a Senate. 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:02.559 You know, none of the other kids knew what they 1:21:02.560 --> 1:21:06.960 were talking about when they said, okay, eight nine A, B, C, 1:21:07.280 --> 1:21:10.599 D E F. Wait a minute with how does that work? 1:21:11.240 --> 1:21:15.240 I totally rocked it. So when I got to high school, 1:21:15.320 --> 1:21:19.080 I was either going to be I was either going 1:21:19.160 --> 1:21:20.880 to go to tech school and learn to be a 1:21:20.920 --> 1:21:24.720 computer programmer, or go to no school at all and 1:21:24.800 --> 1:21:29.080 be a musician. Unfortunately for me, I got into a 1:21:29.080 --> 1:21:31.960 band and became a musician, and that later in life 1:21:31.960 --> 1:21:35.840 afforded me the time to learn how to program computers. Okay, 1:21:36.240 --> 1:21:39.599 when do you know the personal computer era really starts turning? 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:42.680 The decade leaksa these early eighties. When did you get 1:21:42.720 --> 1:21:47.439 a personal computer? I got every personal computer that was 1:21:47.560 --> 1:21:51.160 ever offered, got very little out of most of them, 1:21:51.160 --> 1:21:53.920 but I got everyone. I got an out I got 1:21:54.000 --> 1:22:00.599 an outre kit, an Alter E O eight kit, which 1:22:00.600 --> 1:22:02.799 you had to build, you know, side of the board 1:22:02.800 --> 1:22:08.160 and everything. The only way you could communicate with it 1:22:08.280 --> 1:22:13.040 was through a teletype with a tape reader, the paper 1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:15.240 tape reader on it, paper tape with a bunch of 1:22:15.280 --> 1:22:18.519 little holes. To program it, you had to boot it up, 1:22:19.360 --> 1:22:21.240 you powered it, and then you went through this hole, 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:25.280 little sequence of switching these micro switches on and off 1:22:25.360 --> 1:22:29.840 in a very particular sequence, which was the bootstrap, and 1:22:30.000 --> 1:22:33.599 that would make it able to read the tape reader, 1:22:34.200 --> 1:22:37.960 the paper tape reader, which would then reading a whole 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:41.400 program which would allow you to have a really blocky 1:22:42.800 --> 1:22:47.560 picture of what looks like liquid going into a Martini 1:22:47.600 --> 1:22:52.600 glass and super low risk, and that whole process to 1:22:52.680 --> 1:22:56.519 take you like fift twenty minutes to do that. Then 1:22:56.560 --> 1:22:58.839 I got, you know, I remember I got a pet computer, 1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:01.640 which was a thing that looked like you know it, 1:23:02.560 --> 1:23:05.040 It looked like kind of like almost like an Apple 1:23:05.080 --> 1:23:06.800 two on the bottom. But then I had a head 1:23:06.840 --> 1:23:11.040 on it, like a little head, and I imagined teaching 1:23:11.040 --> 1:23:13.760 it to roll around, you know, programming, so we could 1:23:13.840 --> 1:23:17.160 roll around on wheels. I never quite got that far, 1:23:18.000 --> 1:23:21.719 and things never got really productive until the Apple two plus, 1:23:23.240 --> 1:23:27.000 because then you had a real programming language. All you 1:23:27.000 --> 1:23:29.120 had did was turn it on and it came up 1:23:29.160 --> 1:23:34.080 ready to take your commands. Uh. It had color of 1:23:34.160 --> 1:23:36.519 a sort. It was a really bizarre way to put 1:23:36.600 --> 1:23:41.160 color on the screen. Um. And when I got it, 1:23:41.200 --> 1:23:43.479 I took a year off from touring and learned how 1:23:43.520 --> 1:23:47.040 to program and then the end of it, I knew 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:52.519 how to program what they call a simpler language, which 1:23:52.560 --> 1:23:55.360 is talking to the computer. And the only language is 1:23:55.520 --> 1:24:01.880 understands two fifty six commands and that's it. Okay, the 1:24:01.920 --> 1:24:04.120 number two fifty six is that based on the chip. 1:24:04.200 --> 1:24:07.360 And then they became more commands. That's sixteen six team 1:24:07.360 --> 1:24:10.479 bit number. Each number with be like this number might 1:24:10.560 --> 1:24:12.479 you know, might be oh one or something like that, 1:24:12.880 --> 1:24:17.720 and it means put the next eight bits into the accumulator. 1:24:19.760 --> 1:24:22.479 The next one would be add these eight bits to 1:24:22.640 --> 1:24:28.200 the accumulator. The next one would be put the accumulator 1:24:28.439 --> 1:24:34.040 into the address specified by the next two bits. It's 1:24:34.080 --> 1:24:37.559 the lowest level that you can possibly get to, well 1:24:37.680 --> 1:24:40.960 practically get to. Then you became yeah, you became a 1:24:41.000 --> 1:24:45.200 big Amiga guy with a toaster, right. Ah. Yeah. I 1:24:45.320 --> 1:24:47.840 was never into the Amigo much until I got into 1:24:47.840 --> 1:24:52.000 the video toaster. And that was really not a relationship 1:24:52.040 --> 1:24:54.920 with the machine. It was a relationship with the company 1:24:54.960 --> 1:25:00.519 that made the video toaster. And uh, there's a uh. 1:25:00.520 --> 1:25:03.120 I was always into the video graphics, always wanted to 1:25:03.160 --> 1:25:08.559 do a video that was all computer graphics, but it 1:25:08.760 --> 1:25:12.920 was not practical financially for me. At the time. And 1:25:12.920 --> 1:25:15.040 then I went to the biggest computer graphics show in 1:25:15.040 --> 1:25:19.320 the world. It's called cigarette Special Interest Group for Graphics 1:25:19.360 --> 1:25:25.439 of the International Engineering whatever it is Society, and I 1:25:25.560 --> 1:25:29.360 saw the video toaster for the first time, running inside 1:25:29.360 --> 1:25:32.479 and Amiga, and I thought, wow, I could afford that. 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:37.920 So I bought three, thinking, you know, it would be 1:25:38.000 --> 1:25:40.439 enough for me to do my computer video. And I 1:25:40.479 --> 1:25:42.920 realized that, you know, once I got a start event, 1:25:42.960 --> 1:25:46.240 it's gonna take me a year to do with three computers. 1:25:46.640 --> 1:25:48.439 So I sent what I had to new Tech, the 1:25:48.439 --> 1:25:52.320 company that made the video toaster, and they said, wow, 1:25:52.320 --> 1:25:53.760 this is good. If you can make it finish, the 1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:56.240 whole thing would be a great demo for the video toaster. 1:25:56.560 --> 1:26:01.920 So they sent me thirty video toasters and I rented 1:26:02.000 --> 1:26:04.040 it off the space and saw Celito and send them 1:26:04.040 --> 1:26:07.439 all up and set them to work, and sneaker netted 1:26:07.439 --> 1:26:10.439 them because there was no networking at the time for them. 1:26:11.200 --> 1:26:13.599 Sneaker net in other words, put a big fat hard 1:26:13.680 --> 1:26:18.519 drive connected up to the computer, fill it up, take 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:20.760 it off, and put another computer hard drive on there. 1:26:21.240 --> 1:26:23.840 Take the hard drive that you filled up, and write 1:26:23.840 --> 1:26:27.240 all those frames out to a video disc recorder. Then 1:26:27.240 --> 1:26:29.559 wiped the drive and start all over again. And then 1:26:29.560 --> 1:26:32.360 it only took me a month to do Well, a 1:26:32.400 --> 1:26:34.880 month is better than a year. But you said you 1:26:34.880 --> 1:26:37.280 you said you had an actual business. What did that 1:26:37.360 --> 1:26:41.639 business look like with deliverables, etcetera. Well, it never turned 1:26:41.680 --> 1:26:44.679 into a real business. Who was a partnership with new Tech. 1:26:45.720 --> 1:26:48.880 Once I've finished, Once I've finished, changed myself, which was 1:26:48.920 --> 1:26:51.439 the song that I did the video for. They flew 1:26:51.439 --> 1:26:53.840 me out to which I saw Kansas, which is where 1:26:53.880 --> 1:26:59.120 they were centered at the time, no longer and uh 1:26:59.400 --> 1:27:03.439 showed me around the place everything, and they and the 1:27:03.560 --> 1:27:06.280 next morning I was gonna fly home, they took me 1:27:06.320 --> 1:27:08.559 out to a dinner for breakfast and said, would you 1:27:08.600 --> 1:27:11.360 like to start a studio and we'll bankroll the studio, 1:27:12.160 --> 1:27:14.240 and what you'll do with the studio is help us 1:27:14.280 --> 1:27:17.160 develop the software, you know, help us push it along 1:27:17.360 --> 1:27:21.719 and create demos for the software, and hopefully ultimately become 1:27:21.720 --> 1:27:24.280 a business. So we did a lot of the former, 1:27:24.400 --> 1:27:26.759 button it was never able to do the latter because 1:27:26.800 --> 1:27:29.720 we were in Sausalito. We were not in l A 1:27:30.479 --> 1:27:33.719 or New York, you know, and most people were doing 1:27:33.760 --> 1:27:37.639 their business in those hubs. Okay, So you talk about, 1:27:37.720 --> 1:27:41.439 you know, leaving Saucelito for Hawaii, and about all the 1:27:41.520 --> 1:27:45.360 investment bankers as opposed to the engineers. Did you also 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:47.519 burn out on the scene. I mean, for those of 1:27:47.560 --> 1:27:49.960 us who lived through it, the Beatles and what came 1:27:50.000 --> 1:27:52.559 after was a huge left turner right, depending on which 1:27:52.560 --> 1:27:54.639 direction you want to view it from. What had come 1:27:54.680 --> 1:27:58.280 before the computer revolution which started for people like you 1:27:58.400 --> 1:28:01.120 and around, you know, just before nine eighty and then 1:28:01.160 --> 1:28:04.920 the average person caught on in or six with a 1:28:05.000 --> 1:28:08.080 O L the Internet, And then it ended like five 1:28:08.160 --> 1:28:11.040 or seven years ago. Do you are you still as 1:28:11.080 --> 1:28:13.200 addicted or at one point you say, I'm not as 1:28:13.280 --> 1:28:19.280 excited about it anymore. Well, it certainly has morphed into 1:28:20.120 --> 1:28:24.799 a different thing. Uh. For one thing, in those days, 1:28:27.920 --> 1:28:31.479 connectivity was almost always point to point. You know. It's 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:34.439 like you had a modem and someone else had a 1:28:34.479 --> 1:28:38.000 modem and somehow you could manage to get them connected 1:28:38.080 --> 1:28:41.960 and to send some sort of sort of data. I 1:28:42.000 --> 1:28:46.040 don't know, but it was way before the world of 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:52.519 like user interface philosophy, and uh, there certainly was no 1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:56.280 social media as we know it now. It was a 1:28:56.360 --> 1:29:01.920 O L kind of you know, pretty tame by comparison. Uh, 1:29:03.640 --> 1:29:08.360 the Internet was not really a thing yet, um, and 1:29:08.520 --> 1:29:11.960 I kind of went through the whole evolution of all 1:29:12.000 --> 1:29:16.040 those things. And I recall going to some of the 1:29:16.160 --> 1:29:25.080 very first conferences about monetizing the Internet, and it's where 1:29:25.120 --> 1:29:27.600 I came up with the idea for Patronet. I was 1:29:27.640 --> 1:29:30.879 at a conference and they're thinking about all the possible 1:29:30.920 --> 1:29:37.160 ways that we could do commerce, uh using internet technology, 1:29:38.800 --> 1:29:42.960 and I had proposed the idea of eliminating the middleman 1:29:43.160 --> 1:29:48.200 that the record label represented. In other words, traditionally, you 1:29:48.200 --> 1:29:50.919 would get money from the label to make your records, 1:29:51.640 --> 1:29:54.519 but the label expects to get the money from the 1:29:54.600 --> 1:29:58.120 people who buy your records. And the people who buy 1:29:58.120 --> 1:30:00.599 your records don't feel they have a relationship with the label. 1:30:00.640 --> 1:30:03.400 They feel they have a relationship with you. So the 1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:06.479 label is the middleman, and the Internet would allow you 1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:10.080 to eliminate the middleman, go directly to your fans and 1:30:10.120 --> 1:30:15.160 have them underwrite the production of your records by getting 1:30:15.160 --> 1:30:19.920 involved in a subscription service. It all seems so obvious now, 1:30:20.360 --> 1:30:22.920 but no one had thought of that in the old 1:30:23.000 --> 1:30:28.080 days of the nineties. And so uh, that was when 1:30:28.120 --> 1:30:32.840 I said about to you know, create this thing to 1:30:32.880 --> 1:30:38.520 be able to uh build something that was a combination 1:30:39.200 --> 1:30:45.160 service delivery and social media sort of platform all in one, 1:30:47.240 --> 1:30:49.760 and ran it for a while and again went up 1:30:49.760 --> 1:30:55.639 and down. Turned out to be technologically just almost too 1:30:55.760 --> 1:30:59.759 much to deal with because of lack of standards. Apple 1:30:59.840 --> 1:31:02.519 and Microsoft we're still battling it out, you know, who's 1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:05.599 gonna dominate here, Like one would wipe out the other, 1:31:05.840 --> 1:31:07.800 you know, And so there was always you had to 1:31:07.840 --> 1:31:11.040 do things twice. Everything had to be done at least twice, 1:31:11.240 --> 1:31:14.800 one for Microsoft and one for Apple. But worse than that, 1:31:15.120 --> 1:31:17.040 you only had to do it once for Apple, but 1:31:17.120 --> 1:31:20.080 you'd probably have to do it a dozen times for Microsoft. 1:31:20.320 --> 1:31:23.920 Because Microsoft didn't make the machines. People built their own machines, 1:31:24.200 --> 1:31:26.479 and people didn't half the time even on how to 1:31:26.520 --> 1:31:31.200 work their damn machines. You wind up doing Microsoft's customer service. 1:31:33.320 --> 1:31:35.519 It was just it was a nightmare. And then you 1:31:35.560 --> 1:31:38.320 had to say social media component on top of it, 1:31:38.600 --> 1:31:42.080 and you know, knowing what we know now about people 1:31:42.479 --> 1:31:44.400 and what they'll say when you can't poke them in 1:31:44.439 --> 1:31:49.080 the face after saying it, you know, it's just eventually 1:31:49.240 --> 1:31:52.439 I sort of like gave it up. That doesn't mean 1:31:52.680 --> 1:31:57.360 that it couldn't work, but you'd have to you don't 1:31:57.400 --> 1:32:00.240 have to know what you're dealing with upfront and to have, 1:32:00.640 --> 1:32:03.559 you know, real solutions for them. They can't turn into 1:32:03.560 --> 1:32:07.240 the cess pool that Facebook has become. Okay, you talk 1:32:07.320 --> 1:32:10.000 about that, Tess. Well, you've actually the last few years 1:32:10.360 --> 1:32:15.200 have evidence, uh some political views. What is your political 1:32:15.280 --> 1:32:17.599 view in the country at this point in time and 1:32:17.640 --> 1:32:20.400 what responsibility or action do you want to take or 1:32:20.760 --> 1:32:25.519 not take. Well, I never make an assumptions that I'm 1:32:25.520 --> 1:32:27.799 a celebrity. I know that I have my fan base, 1:32:28.880 --> 1:32:31.519 and I've been dealing with these issues amongst my fan base. 1:32:33.040 --> 1:32:35.960 My feeling is that anyone who does anyone who gets 1:32:36.040 --> 1:32:40.200 upset listening to Tinfoil Hat not really fan anyway. I mean, 1:32:40.240 --> 1:32:43.240 they don't understand the greater move of what I'm doing. 1:32:43.880 --> 1:32:46.960 They just came to hear, Hello, it's me. So if 1:32:47.000 --> 1:32:50.000 I lose those people, I always lose them. I always 1:32:50.040 --> 1:32:51.760 lose them if they don't show up for thirty years 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:54.000 and I realize I'm not gonna do Hello it's me, 1:32:54.479 --> 1:32:55.920 And then they said, I'll never buy to take it 1:32:55.960 --> 1:32:59.719 to this guy again. It's you know, it's just part 1:32:59.760 --> 1:33:02.960 of you know, it's part of life. I make up 1:33:03.000 --> 1:33:05.479 for it, as I say, by like gaining younger audience, 1:33:05.960 --> 1:33:07.840 which you have to do anyway. You know, your old 1:33:07.960 --> 1:33:12.640 audience is checking out in so many ways, so you 1:33:12.680 --> 1:33:15.000 always have to refresh your audience. How how do you 1:33:15.080 --> 1:33:17.840 do that? You do it by showing interest, you know, 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:21.400 and the things that the younger audience is interested in, 1:33:22.360 --> 1:33:25.880 and being involved with artists at the younger audience is 1:33:25.920 --> 1:33:28.960 interested in. That's why my last record and the record 1:33:29.000 --> 1:33:34.560 that I'm working now are aggressive collaborations. It's me introducing 1:33:34.560 --> 1:33:38.400 myself to new audience with the full realization that my 1:33:38.439 --> 1:33:42.280 own audience, my own audience is bound to thin out 1:33:42.400 --> 1:33:48.840 just by natural attrition. So um yeah, just you know, 1:33:48.920 --> 1:33:53.920 I've been self consciously sort of taking every opportunity I 1:33:54.000 --> 1:33:58.080 can to work with younger artists and inherit in some 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:02.920 small way. They're audience. And you never know nowadays how 1:34:03.960 --> 1:34:06.960 how these things spread. You know that how a meme 1:34:07.040 --> 1:34:11.519 gets spread in you know, in any particular way. That's 1:34:11.600 --> 1:34:15.360 kind of the science of a promotion nowadays. You know, 1:34:16.880 --> 1:34:20.679 That's why there are Facebook promotion departments trying to figure 1:34:20.720 --> 1:34:24.439 out how your meme gets spread, What the things that 1:34:24.520 --> 1:34:28.320 you have to do, you know, to maximize that. Okay. 1:34:28.360 --> 1:34:31.559 In terms of younger audience, you can work with younger acts. 1:34:32.000 --> 1:34:34.599 Is there a specific type of sound that you would 1:34:34.600 --> 1:34:42.200 employ to reach a younger audience? M No, not really no, okay, No, 1:34:42.920 --> 1:34:45.080 you just want to work with someone who has an audience, 1:34:46.560 --> 1:34:50.080 whatever sound might be, you know, or someone who could 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:53.400 potentially have an audience. You know, I'm not necessarily picky 1:34:53.400 --> 1:34:56.120 about the size of the of the audience. They could 1:34:56.120 --> 1:34:59.799 be just starting out. Um, that's fine with me. Okay. 1:35:00.200 --> 1:35:03.880 So you had a very active production career then it 1:35:04.000 --> 1:35:06.880 slowed down. What can you tell us about that? And 1:35:06.920 --> 1:35:09.120 do you have any offers at this date or those 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:15.439 dried up? Well? The the production thing, you know is, 1:35:16.800 --> 1:35:19.600 I don't know whether it's I could say that's like cyclical, 1:35:19.760 --> 1:35:23.479 whether the kind of producer that I am would ever 1:35:23.600 --> 1:35:27.160 come back, because it's often reflective of the greater music 1:35:27.240 --> 1:35:31.519 scene and what's happening out there. When we started being 1:35:31.560 --> 1:35:34.200 able to certainly when we started being able to pass 1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:40.200 files around file sharing, you could entertain the possibility of 1:35:40.240 --> 1:35:43.120 working with people that you wouldn't be able to work 1:35:43.160 --> 1:35:47.600 with for it simply because of the physical distance. And 1:35:47.840 --> 1:35:51.920 whatever restrictions that might impose, and so that probably gives 1:35:51.960 --> 1:35:56.439 people ideas in a well in a way, music has 1:35:56.560 --> 1:36:02.200 changed a lot, especially in terms of the artists who 1:36:02.200 --> 1:36:08.599 are uh noteworthy for it. And it isn't necessarily because 1:36:08.760 --> 1:36:12.799 they are selling records. Records as some are are becoming 1:36:12.840 --> 1:36:20.680 a somewhat obsolete form, uh, because music isn't just for musicians. 1:36:21.120 --> 1:36:22.519 There are a lot of people who want to be 1:36:22.560 --> 1:36:26.400 a personality. My brand is me, you know. It isn't 1:36:26.439 --> 1:36:30.920 any particular thing that I do. I'm the brand, and 1:36:31.479 --> 1:36:34.400 the brand needs a theme song, So I'm gonna record 1:36:34.720 --> 1:36:37.479 my own theme song. But the music doesn't mean a 1:36:37.520 --> 1:36:40.280 whole lot more to me than designing a pair of 1:36:40.360 --> 1:36:44.640 shoes perhaps, or showing up dressed really crazy at a 1:36:44.680 --> 1:36:48.599 red carpet event or something like that. The I'm gonna 1:36:48.640 --> 1:36:51.479 make my money off a merchandise, I'm gonna make my 1:36:51.600 --> 1:36:54.320 money off of a commercial. I'm gonna make my money 1:36:54.400 --> 1:36:57.760 possibly off of a licensing deal for this song. But 1:36:57.840 --> 1:37:00.519 I'm likely not going to make my money trying to 1:37:00.560 --> 1:37:06.320 sell records because that time has kind of passed. Well, 1:37:06.720 --> 1:37:09.200 there are certainly collectors who will buy the vinyl thing, 1:37:09.560 --> 1:37:14.080 you know, but most of the royalties, such as they 1:37:14.080 --> 1:37:19.440 are that are being tracked, are being tracked electronically, you know, Spotify, YouTube, 1:37:19.560 --> 1:37:22.760 all of the big what are now Apple, all of 1:37:22.840 --> 1:37:26.320 the big music delivery services. That's where the royalties are 1:37:26.360 --> 1:37:28.800 coming from. But they're not the kind of royalties that 1:37:28.840 --> 1:37:32.880 you would get if you were, you know, selling records 1:37:32.920 --> 1:37:35.920 the old fashioned way, because the music is so easy 1:37:35.960 --> 1:37:40.160 to share. It's an advertisement for yourself. It's an advertisement 1:37:40.200 --> 1:37:42.920 for your concert tickets where you will where you have 1:37:43.080 --> 1:37:45.920 always made way more money than you did with a 1:37:46.000 --> 1:37:51.280 recorded artifact. Okay, we grew up in an era where 1:37:51.640 --> 1:37:55.960 music drove the culture was everything, great burst of creativity 1:37:56.120 --> 1:38:00.760 and explosive market share, just like they're subsequently was with 1:38:01.439 --> 1:38:06.080 computers in the internet directly. What do you think of 1:38:06.120 --> 1:38:11.720 today's music? Not much, not a lot. You know, it's 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:16.840 I don't It's like I don't listen to the radio, 1:38:16.920 --> 1:38:20.320 and I don't listen to you know, popular streams and 1:38:20.479 --> 1:38:22.360 things like that. I'd like to be a little bit 1:38:22.400 --> 1:38:25.599 more targeted and what I listened to. But in terms 1:38:25.640 --> 1:38:30.720 of gauging what is successful in the music business, I mean, 1:38:30.760 --> 1:38:33.640 there's probably no better gauge than who they allowed to 1:38:33.720 --> 1:38:37.880 be musical guests on Saturday Night Live. And I have 1:38:38.000 --> 1:38:40.600 to say, seventy of the time I have to mute it. 1:38:41.160 --> 1:38:45.439 I can't listen to it. It's just it's just exactly 1:38:45.439 --> 1:38:48.559 what I say, is somebody's theme song, you know, And 1:38:48.640 --> 1:38:51.080 it's just as much as soundtrack because they're shaking their 1:38:51.080 --> 1:38:54.400 giant ass and the camera as it is listenable music. 1:38:54.800 --> 1:38:58.840 And so I don't have a lot of hopes at 1:38:58.880 --> 1:39:04.040 this point for the kind of movement that let's say, 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:08.680 even something like grunge represented, you know, where it was 1:39:08.720 --> 1:39:16.639 more or less a wholesale um rebuke of a way 1:39:16.680 --> 1:39:20.679 of making records, in a way of writing songs and 1:39:20.479 --> 1:39:24.920 and that sort of thing. Uh, there was I guess 1:39:25.000 --> 1:39:30.320 the E D M movement that came in the in 1:39:30.360 --> 1:39:36.439 the twenties and and in to the early tens, but uh, 1:39:38.400 --> 1:39:41.960 that was something that was kind of always there. That 1:39:42.160 --> 1:39:45.000 kind of music is always lurking around and dance clubs 1:39:45.040 --> 1:39:48.120 and things like that. And it became big when festivals 1:39:48.200 --> 1:39:52.479 became the thing to do, the place to play. Rather 1:39:52.520 --> 1:39:56.080 than doing your own long, laborious tours, you play summer 1:39:56.160 --> 1:40:01.280 festivals for hundreds of thousands of people. So and in 1:40:01.320 --> 1:40:03.920 the end, it's still just marketing, probably for something else 1:40:03.960 --> 1:40:07.040 besides the music. You get paid an obscene amount of 1:40:07.040 --> 1:40:11.599 money to play, you know, a big festival, and uh 1:40:11.840 --> 1:40:14.479 so you don't care so much about making music on 1:40:14.600 --> 1:40:18.479 individual sales of the song. Okay, In the time you 1:40:18.520 --> 1:40:21.040 have left, which could be one minute or twenty five 1:40:21.160 --> 1:40:24.400 years or so, you always say you're learning what would 1:40:24.439 --> 1:40:26.800 you like to accomplish in this time you have left? 1:40:27.200 --> 1:40:29.439 Knowing that you always keep the target a little further 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:32.560 than achievements. You much have on your mind, things you 1:40:32.600 --> 1:40:38.920 would like to do. Well, I've filled my plate up 1:40:38.920 --> 1:40:42.120 pretty well at this particular moment. You know, I don't 1:40:42.160 --> 1:40:45.200 really have the time to speculate on what I might 1:40:45.240 --> 1:40:51.760 do after. I know what I'm doing in one I'm 1:40:51.800 --> 1:40:58.360 getting this, um, I'm getting this virtual show done. I 1:40:58.520 --> 1:41:02.439 am still working on recording projects. I've got a recording 1:41:02.479 --> 1:41:06.519 project of my own new collaborations was hopefully will be 1:41:06.560 --> 1:41:10.519 finished and released sometime this year. We're releasing singles in 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:16.280 the meantime. Uh, I've got I'm actually involved in some 1:41:16.320 --> 1:41:20.120 production as well. I'm involved in a fairly major production 1:41:20.200 --> 1:41:22.960 as we speak, which is driving me a little crazy. 1:41:23.080 --> 1:41:27.200 But uh, because of all the other things that I 1:41:27.280 --> 1:41:29.800 have to do, And I don't know exactly what the 1:41:29.840 --> 1:41:33.160 timeline but of that will be, but that's a large 1:41:33.200 --> 1:41:40.000 thing on my plate as well. So I'm my free 1:41:40.040 --> 1:41:42.800 time next year, if I have any and I'm allowed to, 1:41:42.960 --> 1:41:46.439 I'm going to travel to some of those places I 1:41:46.640 --> 1:41:50.120 like to go to, and then by the fall, by 1:41:50.120 --> 1:41:51.679 the end of the year, I'll be out on tour 1:41:51.760 --> 1:41:55.560 again and then home again by next Christmas. Okay, a 1:41:55.600 --> 1:41:59.320 couple of quick questions. Do you play music like we're 1:41:59.360 --> 1:42:01.639 talking now, but if we weren't, would you be playing 1:42:01.680 --> 1:42:05.320 music in the background or generally speaking not? And now 1:42:05.360 --> 1:42:08.000 I'd be working on music in the background. And how 1:42:08.080 --> 1:42:11.240 much in a day are you working on music every day? 1:42:11.600 --> 1:42:13.760 I do work on music every day, but you'd be 1:42:13.800 --> 1:42:16.040 surprised how much of it just goes on up here 1:42:16.960 --> 1:42:19.080 He's pointing to his head. Since we don't have video. 1:42:19.520 --> 1:42:24.000 I preview, pre visualize almost everything that I do. I 1:42:24.000 --> 1:42:26.559 don't just like start doing it. I imagine it in 1:42:26.640 --> 1:42:30.639 as much detail as I can muster before I start 1:42:30.680 --> 1:42:34.719 to do it. Uh So, like let's say I'm working 1:42:34.720 --> 1:42:37.640 on a song, I will work on it very intensely 1:42:37.680 --> 1:42:40.679 for an hour, and then, depending on how I feel, 1:42:40.720 --> 1:42:43.120 I may take a break and come back to it, 1:42:43.200 --> 1:42:45.760 or I may move on to something else, Like my 1:42:45.840 --> 1:42:48.720 brain is too full of that for the moment, and 1:42:48.720 --> 1:42:52.280 I have to clear it out. Uh. It doesn't take 1:42:52.320 --> 1:42:55.559 a lot of time actually in front of the computer 1:42:55.640 --> 1:42:59.320 for me to get a lot done. I have all 1:42:59.400 --> 1:43:04.320 of the tools that I need immediately accessible to me. UM, 1:43:04.360 --> 1:43:08.960 and I tend to make the decisions fairly quickly. UM. 1:43:09.000 --> 1:43:11.200 I tend to you know, if something works for me, 1:43:11.400 --> 1:43:14.719 I I kind of know it, and if it doesn't work, 1:43:14.800 --> 1:43:18.120 I will change it right away. So I don't have 1:43:18.200 --> 1:43:20.799 to spend hours and hours and hours pouring my ears 1:43:20.840 --> 1:43:23.960 with sound. I think about what I'm gonna do. The 1:43:24.080 --> 1:43:27.120 music is in my head, and so when I get 1:43:27.160 --> 1:43:29.479 actually in front of the computer, I'm as productive as 1:43:29.479 --> 1:43:33.200 I can possibly be. And what musical artists are you 1:43:33.240 --> 1:43:36.120 a fan of? I've been fans over the years of 1:43:36.160 --> 1:43:38.120 a lot of musical artists. I'm trying to think of 1:43:38.240 --> 1:43:41.599 someone you know more recent Vinta. No, I don't need 1:43:41.640 --> 1:43:43.720 I don't need something to while my audience to show 1:43:43.720 --> 1:43:45.800 that you're young and hip. But like, what do you 1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:49.400 what would be your go to records, go to records 1:43:49.439 --> 1:43:51.240 who well, you know, then it sounds like I'm being 1:43:51.280 --> 1:43:53.720 too hip, you know, because I might go back and 1:43:53.760 --> 1:43:57.080 listen to some revel again. You know. Okay, well that's reasonable. 1:43:57.720 --> 1:44:00.880 You know. It's that he, you know, Maurice Orrell was 1:44:00.920 --> 1:44:04.240 such a big influence on the way I hear things harmonically, 1:44:04.960 --> 1:44:09.280 and you know, I'm still marvel at, you know, the 1:44:09.320 --> 1:44:13.200 sensibility and the skill behind it. And it's kind of 1:44:13.200 --> 1:44:17.720 a reminder of what real musicianship is for me. We 1:44:17.800 --> 1:44:22.200 get so distracted by the personality aspects of what we 1:44:22.280 --> 1:44:27.400 do because most often, if people know your song, you're 1:44:27.439 --> 1:44:30.280 somehow going to get in front of their face, you know. 1:44:30.520 --> 1:44:34.719 And in the old days, you know, people might never 1:44:34.800 --> 1:44:41.400 know who the genius behind that magnificent performance of of 1:44:41.560 --> 1:44:46.720 La Valse was, you know. And that's uh something that 1:44:46.800 --> 1:44:49.760 I you know, it's not that I long not to 1:44:49.840 --> 1:44:52.000 be in the public eye. I can handle it. I'm 1:44:52.080 --> 1:44:55.400 used to it. But just the idea of thinking of 1:44:55.439 --> 1:44:58.920 yourself as a musician, not as a personality, and trying 1:44:58.960 --> 1:45:01.639 to just get into that head, not think about how 1:45:01.680 --> 1:45:04.040 the audience is going to respond to it, but think 1:45:04.120 --> 1:45:07.559 solely about what you want to create, the moment that, 1:45:07.640 --> 1:45:11.000 the atmosphere, the feeling that you want to create. You 1:45:11.120 --> 1:45:15.000 dig into yourself, find something that's real in yourself and 1:45:15.160 --> 1:45:19.200 try and objectivise that and not worry about what the 1:45:19.240 --> 1:45:22.200 reaction is going to be. And are you doing music 1:45:22.240 --> 1:45:25.080 all day or are you also a reader streaming TV? 1:45:25.920 --> 1:45:28.280 I do all kinds of things all day. The reason 1:45:28.320 --> 1:45:34.880 why I don't take interviews early is because I've I 1:45:34.960 --> 1:45:39.719 go through a morning exercise, morning brain exercises. I will 1:45:39.720 --> 1:45:44.440 do as many crossword puzzles as I can find, jigsaw puzzles, sadocus, 1:45:45.479 --> 1:45:48.679 all kinds of stuff just to work my brain out 1:45:48.960 --> 1:45:51.639 for up to two hours before I do anything serious 1:45:51.720 --> 1:45:56.360 during the day. Every day, every day. What do you 1:45:56.400 --> 1:45:59.519 what's the best crossword puzzle for you? Well, I mean 1:45:59.560 --> 1:46:02.160 the most challenging, the best. I guess it would be 1:46:02.240 --> 1:46:07.680 like Saturday New York Times. And I actually actually have 1:46:07.760 --> 1:46:12.360 fans and friends who are cruciverbalists, so I am somewhat 1:46:12.400 --> 1:46:16.320 into that world. Okay. And then the rest of the day, 1:46:16.479 --> 1:46:18.880 once you're you know, up and running or do you 1:46:18.920 --> 1:46:21.400 watch streaming TV? Do you read books? If it's time 1:46:21.479 --> 1:46:23.840 to do something like this, I'll do this, I'll be 1:46:23.920 --> 1:46:27.080 reading books, I'll be learning something. I have to do graphics, 1:46:27.080 --> 1:46:30.720 I have to do video. I did six hour long 1:46:30.800 --> 1:46:34.679 episodes of a video kind of lifestyle show, and each 1:46:34.720 --> 1:46:37.719 episode of that took me probably at least four days 1:46:37.800 --> 1:46:42.160 to put together. So I'd be doing video. I you know, 1:46:42.520 --> 1:46:46.439 I am learning things. I spent in the first six 1:46:46.479 --> 1:46:50.559 months almost every day doing computer code, so it could 1:46:50.560 --> 1:46:54.400 be anything. You know, It's not not any particular thing. 1:46:54.640 --> 1:46:57.519 And if it's like a Saturday, we have big family 1:46:57.560 --> 1:47:01.320 meals and I'm ex spent half the day just wow. 1:47:01.400 --> 1:47:05.080 You good cook? Yes, I am. And when your go 1:47:05.240 --> 1:47:08.360 to dish or cuisine would be well, I have several 1:47:08.400 --> 1:47:10.280 dishes that I can do. I can cook you a 1:47:10.280 --> 1:47:15.479 mean duck with nice crispy skin. Crab risotto is a 1:47:15.520 --> 1:47:21.080 good one. Uh yeah, I can cook. On that note, Todd, 1:47:21.160 --> 1:47:23.160 thanks so much. We've delved into a lot of topics. 1:47:23.200 --> 1:47:27.280 You're really a thinker and you're analytical. Uh. Your analysis 1:47:27.280 --> 1:47:29.599 of certain things is the most interesting. Thanks for taking 1:47:29.600 --> 1:47:33.200 this time my pleasure, Bob, and I'm sure we'll be 1:47:33.280 --> 1:47:36.160 doing this again sometime. Okay, I look forward to it. 1:47:36.160 --> 1:47:38.759 If you're up to it, you know, It's funny because 1:47:38.800 --> 1:47:41.080 I feel some of this stuff you've been asked so 1:47:41.160 --> 1:47:44.080 many times. I'm wary of asking it because you know 1:47:44.080 --> 1:47:45.360 a lot of people say, oh, you know, it's like 1:47:45.360 --> 1:47:48.000 play your hit. They don't want to do it. But 1:47:48.080 --> 1:47:50.640 you know, there's always new things to be uncovered. If 1:47:50.680 --> 1:47:54.760 you're not tired of talking about these subjects, well, you 1:47:54.800 --> 1:47:57.360 know there is a whole lot new, but you know 1:47:57.800 --> 1:48:02.080 there is what's happening now, and certainly the background helps 1:48:02.080 --> 1:48:05.160 to inform it. So I don't mind doing it. Okay, 1:48:05.280 --> 1:48:07.320 till next time. This is Bob left six